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the situation
11-30-2013, 05:18 PM
thoughts? will this trend continue when kobe returns? lakers have been surprisingly good. anybody willing to give dantoni credit now?

nickdymez
11-30-2013, 05:23 PM
I don't see why it wouldn't continue. This team is an upgrade from last years team.

Hellcrooner
11-30-2013, 05:23 PM
inprinciple with kobe it should go up and get around 47-50 wins.

But of course he may DISRUPT the ball flowing and the chemistry and make things worse.

It will be an interesting thing to watch develop.

Anyway a different coach could maybe have a better record right now for the team.

Sactown
11-30-2013, 05:26 PM
inprinciple with kobe it should go up and get around 47-50 wins.

But of course he may DISRUPT the ball flowing and the chemistry and make things worse.

It will be an interesting thing to watch develop.

Anyway a different coach could maybe have a better record right now for the team.
Not sure how Kobe will fit in with this style of play it will be interested all right. I actually enjoy watching the lakers spread the ball going inside then back out to their shooters, they're young and athletic and like to run. Definitely will be interesting when they add an older slower Kobe and how it affects the pace and the ball movement

nickdymez
11-30-2013, 05:27 PM
inprinciple with kobe it should go up and get around 47-50 wins.

But of course he may DISRUPT the ball flowing and the chemistry and make things worse.

It will be an interesting thing to watch develop.

Anyway a different coach could maybe have a better record right now for the team.

Even when Mike is winning, "fans" still discredit him. This team is built to fit his system. No one would be able to maximize the potential of these guys better than him. Just chill and enjoy the fact that your team is decent so far.

Lakers + Giants
11-30-2013, 05:27 PM
inprinciple with kobe it should go up and get around 47-50 wins.

But of course he may DISRUPT the ball flowing and the chemistry and make things worse.

It will be an interesting thing to watch develop.

Anyway a different coach could maybe have a better record right now for the team.

I don't like antoni at all but I do think it's because of his system that Farmar, Blake, Henry, Meeks, Hill, and Wesley are all playing better than they actually are. I have to give Antoni credit here.

Iron24th
11-30-2013, 05:39 PM
A good surprise even if they dropped a game here and there, will be interesting to see how it goes when Kobe will be back.

shep33
11-30-2013, 06:09 PM
It's live and die by the 3 with this group. Everything is a jump shot, so having Kobe on the block should help.


Also we aren't that good lol. 9-8 isn't anything special.

Supreme LA
11-30-2013, 06:17 PM
thoughts? will this trend continue when kobe returns? lakers have been surprisingly good. anybody willing to give dantoni credit now?

I don't know how much D'Antoni really has to do with it. If anything, I think Pau being in a contract year, the return of Farmar, an improved bench, and getting rid of Howard all plays a big part.

We have length and speed on the perimeter and Meeks seems to have grown as well.

The team should improve with Kobe because Pau seems to be the only person we have to dp it into the post to.

Guppyfighter
11-30-2013, 06:17 PM
Negative differential. Pretty bad team.

jerellh528
11-30-2013, 06:25 PM
double post

jerellh528
11-30-2013, 06:28 PM
If kobe returns to his top 5 form from last year, in theory it should definitely be a big boost gaining back any top player. This team's main problems are closing out teams and creating offense when nobody is hot, which are two things kobe prides himself on accomplishing. The best thing about this team that is different from the past is that it seems as if all the players are trying hard, putting in the effort and are playing hungry and also you never know who will go off for 25 points, it could literally be anyone in the 8-10 man rotation, I recall 8 players scoring 20 or more this season, but I could be wrong. That's definitely a plus from teams in the past where offense came from strictly kobe and pau. It will be very fun and interesting to watch the rest of the season play out if they remain healthy. Also admitting 1 game over .500 isnt impressive at all, but I think only 3 teams out east are even over .500. Lets see if kobe can add some more confidence and get a few 5-10 game wins streaks under their belts.

Guppyfighter
11-30-2013, 06:29 PM
If kobe returns to his top 5 form from last year, in theory it should definitely be a big boost gaining back any top player. This team's main problems are closing out teams and creating offense when nobody is hot, which are two things kobe prides himself on accomplishing. The best thing about this team that is different from the past is that it seems as if all the players are trying hard, putting in the effort and are playing hungry and also you never know who will go off for 25 points, it could literally be anyone in the 8-10 man rotation, I recall 8 players scoring 20 or more this season, but I could be wrong. That's definitely a plus from teams in the past where offense came from strictly kobe and pau. It will be very fun and interesting to watch the rest of the season play out if they remain healthy. Also admitting 1 game over .500 isnt impressive at all, but I think only 3 teams out east are even over .500. Lets see if kobe can add some more confidence and get a few 5-10 game wins streaks under their belts.

Kobe wasn't a top five player last year and if he was the Lakers would have been the sixth seed rather comfortably.

Vinylman
11-30-2013, 06:30 PM
It's live and die by the 3 with this group. Everything is a jump shot, so having Kobe on the block should help.


Also we aren't that good lol. 9-8 isn't anything special.

yeah... the lakers are awesome... i mean... could we get the following schedule the rest of the year like the last 6 games

detroit at home W
GS at home on a second night of a B2B while the Lakers lay around for 4 days W
Sacto at home W

Wash on road ... oh we lost that
Brooklyn on the road W
Detroit on the Road W

Yep... the Lakers rule... i mean at least they had to play one team over 500 in that stretch of course it was at home on the second night of a B2B while the Lakers had 4 days off...

jerellh528
11-30-2013, 06:34 PM
Kobe wasn't a top five player last year and if he was the Lakers would have been the sixth seed rather comfortably.

OK whatever you say, this thread isn't about kobe's ranking, but most people would disagree with you and admit he was somewhere in the top 4-7 last year. Also lakers floundered mostly because of chemistry and injuries. But I respect your opinion.

slashsnake
11-30-2013, 06:35 PM
I am glad for it because it keeps the Lakers in the hunt until he gets back. The worst thing would have been had they started 3-15 and already be pushed so far back they can't find a way into contention at the end of the year for a playoff spot.

That said, well, it's 9 wins, 6 of which have come at home. Coming up they have a 24 game stretch where 17 of them are on the road. I think after that is where I will feel more comfortable of saying who the Lakers really are.

xxplayerxx23
11-30-2013, 07:11 PM
They will win anywhere from 37-42 games

kblo247
11-30-2013, 07:43 PM
Will sound weird but I'm not really sure who he will start with. Even in practices I've seen it reported he's played with three lineups

Blake Meeks Kobe Hill Pau
Blake Kobe Wes Hill Pau
Blake Meeks Kobe Wes Pau

I keep getting this feeling with Hill being a bit tired Dantoni will move him back to the second unit with Farmar Young Henry and Williams. That allows Pringles to preserve his spacing with Blake Meeks and Wes next to Kobe and Pau.

The couple of things they shouldn't change is the minute strain on most the players, as this has been the best minute team Pringles has ever managed. It will be nice to get some post scoring which could have won us a few tight ones, but we all need that 3 ball and both Farmar/Young to play with Kobe at times to close

kblo247
11-30-2013, 07:46 PM
Best thing is they have stayed at 500 as he's not rushed back like he told Rick Fox. He would have tried to return and save the day if they struggled a fourth of the season like the teams in ny

nickdymez
11-30-2013, 08:13 PM
yeah... the lakers are awesome... i mean... could we get the following schedule the rest of the year like the last 6 games

detroit at home W
GS at home on a second night of a B2B while the Lakers lay around for 4 days W
Sacto at home W

Wash on road ... oh we lost that
Brooklyn on the road W
Detroit on the Road W

Yep... the Lakers rule... i mean at least they had to play one team over 500 in that stretch of course it was at home on the second night of a B2B while the Lakers had 4 days off...

I cant tell if your serious.

championships
11-30-2013, 08:26 PM
EH. .500 is nothing to be excited about in Lakerland.

Bruno
11-30-2013, 08:33 PM
Kobe wasn't a top five player last year and if he was the Lakers would have been the sixth seed rather comfortably.

dwight kobe nash artest gasol and hill combined to miss over 100 games for the Lakers last season. no injures would have resulted in the Lakers finishing higher, rather comfortably.

Bruno
11-30-2013, 08:34 PM
LAL would be 3rd in the eastern conference.

kblo247
11-30-2013, 08:53 PM
dwight kobe nash artest gasol and hill combined to miss over 100 games for the Lakers last season. no injures would have resulted in the Lakers finishing higher, rather comfortably.

Don't forget Blake who missed 37 games

TheMightyHumph
11-30-2013, 09:11 PM
It's live and die by the 3 with this group. Everything is a jump shot, so having Kobe on the block should help.


Also we aren't that good lol. 9-8 isn't anything special.

So you think Kobe will improve this team.

TheMightyHumph
11-30-2013, 09:13 PM
EH. .500 is nothing to be excited about in Lakerland.

You are right. I don't believe Lakerland is NBA intelligent enough to know what D'Antoni has accomplished thus far with this team.

Supreme LA
11-30-2013, 09:15 PM
So you think Kobe will improve this team.

That's exactly what he just said if you can read.

Supreme LA
11-30-2013, 09:17 PM
You are right. I don't believe Lakerland is NBA intelligent enough to know what D'Antoni has accomplished thus far with this team.

How much D'Antoni has helped? I believe most of it is attributed to Farmar leading the bench, having athletic wing defenders, getting rid of that spoiled girl Dwight, and Pau being in his contract year. Also, the development of Meeks has helped as well.

Nobody can say for sure how much D'Antoni has helped and I don't believe you have any "NBA intelligence" to be making any comments.

wowzah
11-30-2013, 09:33 PM
Kobe is best when they let his individual greatness shine. He's not a system player and he likely will never acquire the skillset/mindset to be one considering after a billion seasons he never has.

He's scorer. Always has been always will. That's just the way he plays. Even when he had prime Shaq and was the 2nd option he was still jacking ad nauseam. Whether it was in the system look or out of the system shot. He was going to shoot and do it often, and it really has never stopped.

I doubt it will in his 18th season. So you better hope he's still a great player cuz he's gonna be jacking.

Sactown
11-30-2013, 09:33 PM
How much D'Antoni has helped? I believe most of it is attributed to Farmar leading the bench, having athletic wing defenders, getting rid of that spoiled girl Dwight, and Pau being in his contract year. Also, the development of Meeks has helped as well.

Nobody can say for sure how much D'Antoni has helped and I don't believe you have any "NBA intelligence" to be making any comments.

Eh D'Antoni currently has the players he likes the best and his system is working well. He has a athletic shooters who can spread the floor for the pick n roll, the system has worked pretty well and there's plenty of ball movement. It has more to do with Pau playing his natural position at C than him being in his contract year. If Kobe can pass the ball and play within the offense I think the team improves. If he turns into a black hole and the ball movement stops I think they get worse

fresh prince
11-30-2013, 09:34 PM
Not sure how Kobe will fit in with this style of play it will be interested all right. I actually enjoy watching the lakers spread the ball going inside then back out to their shooters, they're young and athletic and like to run. Definitely will be interesting when they add an older slower Kobe and how it affects the pace and the ball movement

Hahahaha! Kobe is many things Old is one of them.. Slow is not one of them.

Hes still a plus athlete even at 35

The Lakers have let 3-4 games slip away simply from not closing down the stretch. That will improve with Kobe back.

Sactown
11-30-2013, 09:39 PM
Hahahaha! Kobe is many things Old is one of them.. Slow is not one of them.
Hes still a plus athlete even at 35

The Lakers have let 3-4 games slip away simply from not closing down the stretch. That will improve with Kobe back.

At 35 he isn't the athlete the Xavier Henry, Wes Johnson, and Meeks are.. So by playing him they will in fact get slower.. Also if the ball movement stops, IMO so does there success

fresh prince
11-30-2013, 09:42 PM
Kobe is best when they let his individual greatness shine. He's not a system player and he likely will never acquire the skillset/mindset to be one considering after a billion seasons he never has.

He's scorer. Always has been always will. That's just the way he plays. Even when he had prime Shaq and was the 2nd option he was still jacking ad nauseam. Whether it was in the system look or out of the system shot. He was going to shoot and do it often, and it really has never stopped.

I doubt it will in his 18th season. So you better hope he's still a great player cuz he's gonna be jacking.

This is a Common misconception. Kobe reads the game better than most and his BBall IQ is still underrated by many. Guy is just a smart hooper. While he is prone to taking some ill advised shots he will generally take what the defense gives him. The nice thing about this team is he has more perimeter weapons around then ever before.

This could be a scary team is everything aligns. I personally think they are one shot blocker / rim protector away from making real noise.

wowzah
11-30-2013, 09:47 PM
This is a Common misconception. Kobe reads the game better than most and his BBall IQ is still underrated by many. Guy is just a smart hooper. While he is prone to taking some ill advised shots he will generally take what the defense gives him. The nice thing about this team is he has more perimeter weapons around then ever before.

This could be a scary team is everything aligns. I personally think they are one shot blocker / rim protector away from making real noise.

Yes of course he's got high ball IQ. He's one of the all time greats and he does have a career 45 FG% for his career. So he's a great player. But what I'm saying is he is not a system player. He's not a very decisive or good passer. He just isn't. He's admitted it himself. The ball will start moving less with Kobe in the lineup and he's going to shoot very often.

How can we know for sure what this means for this particular team? We don't know until he returns.

fresh prince
11-30-2013, 09:51 PM
At 35 he isn't the athlete the Xavier Henry, Wes Johnson, and Meeks are.. So by playing him they will in fact get slower.. Also if the ball movement stops, IMO so does there success

Hardly anyone is the athlete Wes Johnson is but i would still put Kobe on par with Xavier and argue he is still a better athlete than Meeks.


Yes of course he's got high ball IQ. He's one of the all time greats and he does have a career 45 FG% for his career. So he's a great player. But what I'm saying is he is not a system player. He's not a very decisive or good passer. He just isn't. He's admitted it himself. The ball will start moving less with Kobe in the lineup and he's going to shoot very often.

How can we know for sure what this means for this particular team? We don't know until he returns.


He never said he wasn't a good passer. He just said his first instinct is to score. They guy is a great passer its probably his most underrated skill. Not many poor passers have been able to just flip a switch and go out and reel off multiple double digit assist games at will.

http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3118/gamelog;_ylt=AvFPtxv5rAAsesCBGt5LhVPgRQU6?year=201 2

Kobe played brilliantly in Dantoni's system last year dishing out 6 assists per game with limited perimeter weapons and an offensive liability in Dwight. Now that the Lakers have assembled some talent on the wings I don't see ball movement as concern. Like I said Kobe's Bball acumen is high. He's sees the game like few have. He knows his role on this team will be to close games out and get guys easy looks

TheMightyHumph
11-30-2013, 10:25 PM
How much D'Antoni has helped? I believe most of it is attributed to Farmar leading the bench, having athletic wing defenders, getting rid of that spoiled girl Dwight, and Pau being in his contract year. Also, the development of Meeks has helped as well.

Nobody can say for sure how much D'Antoni has helped and I don't believe you have any "NBA intelligence" to be making any comments.

That must be it. The way Farmer led Nets to so much success in New Jersey.

Supreme LA
11-30-2013, 10:37 PM
That must be it. The way Farmer led Nets to so much success in New Jersey.

Did I say it was solely due to Farmar? No. Even then, this obviously means you have no clue as to what you're even talking about because if you have been watching the Lakers, you would know he's been one of their biggest contributors this season.

Then again, this just goes to show how much "NBA intelligence" you really have and that you really need to learn how to read. It's fundamental.

dodie53
11-30-2013, 11:56 PM
kobe will post up every single possession. hehe

Guppyfighter
12-01-2013, 01:10 AM
dwight kobe nash artest gasol and hill combined to miss over 100 games for the Lakers last season. no injures would have resulted in the Lakers finishing higher, rather comfortably.

Unless, of course, Kobe was a top five player. Than they would have.

mightybosstone
12-01-2013, 01:17 AM
inprinciple with kobe it should go up and get around 47-50 wins.

But of course he may DISRUPT the ball flowing and the chemistry and make things worse.
This. I think D'Antoni has done a great job of getting his guys to overachieve and play above their heads in a style that fits how they play basketball. But inserting Kobe into that will kill their chemistry, and a lot of the guys who have played so well to start the season are going to fall back to earth in a big way.

I'm not saying it's impossible that this Lakers team could still make the playoffs or end up above .500, but I look at the teams behind them, and I just can't see them finishing ahead of Golden State, Minnesota or New Orleans, as well as Memphis if they can get Gasol back in time to make a run.

P&GRealist
12-01-2013, 01:33 AM
With losses for the Grizzlies and Mavs tonight, the Kobe-less Lakers are currently 8th in the ultra-competitive Wild Wild West. They would be in the playoff pic if the playoffs started today. Lmao!

shep33
12-01-2013, 01:39 AM
We live and die by the 3. When we hit them we win, when we don't we typically get crushed.

Bottom line is that D'antoni's style of play will never lead to an NBA title, regardless of the talent on his squad.

Supreme LA
12-01-2013, 01:41 AM
This. I think D'Antoni has done a great job of getting his guys to overachieve and play above their heads in a style that fits how they play basketball. But inserting Kobe into that will kill their chemistry, and a lot of the guys who have played so well to start the season are going to fall back to earth in a big way.

I'm not saying it's impossible that this Lakers team could still make the playoffs or end up above .500, but I look at the teams behind them, and I just can't see them finishing ahead of Golden State, Minnesota or New Orleans, as well as Memphis if they can get Gasol back in time to make a run.

So you're basically saying they'll be worse with Kobe??

I mean that would be the only reason you have teams like Minnesota and New Orleans catching up to them when he gets back.

I don't see the logic behind this since they're are already ahead of those teams without Kobe. I know you're a Kobe hater but this is a little too obvious if you're trying to mask it.

Supreme LA
12-01-2013, 01:42 AM
We live and die by the 3. When we hit them we win, when we don't we typically get crushed.

Bottom line is that D'antoni's style of play will never lead to an NBA title, regardless of the talent on his squad.

Exactly.

Also, this team's ceiling is nowhere near what it is with Kobe playing. You win championships with players like Kobe and you sneak into the playoffs with the current roster as it is.

Any of the haters that think otherwise can just stop now.

beliges
12-01-2013, 02:03 AM
With kobe they have a great shot at making the playoffs and even advancing. Without kobe this squad is playing for the regular season.

Guppyfighter
12-01-2013, 02:16 AM
Lakers aren't getting to the second round with or without Kobe.

mightybosstone
12-01-2013, 02:24 AM
So you're basically saying they'll be worse with Kobe??

I mean that would be the only reason you have teams like Minnesota and New Orleans catching up to them when he gets back.

I don't see the logic behind this since they're are already ahead of those teams without Kobe. I know you're a Kobe hater but this is a little too obvious if you're trying to mask it.

This is hard to explain, but yes, I think the Lakers are going to lose more games with Kobe Bryant than without. And that doesn't say anything about Kobe necessarily as it says something about D'Antoni's system and the fact that Kobe doesn't fit into it particularly well. D'Antoni wants to get out and run and likes to employ a lot of ball movement that leads to 3s on the perimeter. Kobe is just a bad fit.

The team is far more talented with Kobe. I'm not debating that. I'm not saying Kobe's a bad player in the slightest. I still think he's capable of being a top 10-15 guy when healthy. I'm saying that the reason this Lakers team is winning games is because they're going all out D'Antoni basketball and hitting threes at an obscene rate. By inserting Kobe into the offense, you're going to inevitably kill that.

Please don't confuse "the Lakers will lose games" with "the Lakers are going to be worse because Kobe Bryant sucks." Those are not the same concepts, and I'm clearly not saying anything negative about Kobe.

Guppyfighter
12-01-2013, 02:27 AM
It's exactly why D'antoni was a bad fit for the Knicks. Melo wanted a half court offense and D'antoni was the opposite.

Same problem.

Bruno
12-01-2013, 02:29 AM
This is hard to explain, but yes, I think the Lakers are going to lose more games with Kobe Bryant than without. And that doesn't say anything about Kobe necessarily as it says something about D'Antoni's system and the fact that Kobe doesn't fit into it particularly well. D'Antoni wants to get out and run and likes to employ a lot of ball movement that leads to 3s on the perimeter. Kobe is just a bad fit.

The team is far more talented with Kobe. I'm not debating that. I'm not saying Kobe's a bad player in the slightest. I still think he's capable of being a top 10-15 guy when healthy. I'm saying that the reason this Lakers team is winning games is because they're going all out D'Antoni basketball and hitting threes at an obscene rate. By inserting Kobe into the offense, you're going to inevitably kill that.

Please don't confuse "the Lakers will lose games" with "the Lakers are going to be worse because Kobe Bryant sucks." Those are not the same concepts, and I'm clearly not saying anything negative about Kobe.

all the lakers have to do is go two games better than .500 to be better than they have been thus far. ill take those odds.

shep33
12-01-2013, 03:07 AM
I can't believe some people are actually defending D'antoni and his system.

No offense but if you guys had him as your coach, you would not like him at all. Doesn't coach defense, his rotations are absurd, and I find him pretty arrogant and over confident.

What has Mike D'antoni done in the NBA outside of having a perfect mix of players to fit his system in Phoenix? How far has that gotten him?


Knicks and Lakers fans understand this lol, trust me, you guys have no idea how bad it is

Guppyfighter
12-01-2013, 03:42 AM
I can't believe some people are actually defending D'antoni and his system.

No offense but if you guys had him as your coach, you would not like him at all. Doesn't coach defense, his rotations are absurd, and I find him pretty arrogant and over confident.

What has Mike D'antoni done in the NBA outside of having a perfect mix of players to fit his system in Phoenix? How far has that gotten him?


Knicks and Lakers fans understand this lol, trust me, you guys have no idea how bad it is

I am not sure how that is defending him. His system doesn't adjust to ill fitting pieces. Sounds like a flaw in the system, not the pieces.

shep33
12-01-2013, 03:49 AM
I am not sure how that is defending him. His system doesn't adjust to ill fitting pieces. Sounds like a flaw in the system, not the pieces.

Even when the pieces fit perfectly though, with guys like Nash, Stat, Matrix, Bell, Barbosa, Johnson, etc. it still never worked.

3 all stars in their primes in Nash, Stat and Matrix, plus a deep bench with 3 point shooters, and he still couldn't get it done.

Guppyfighter
12-01-2013, 04:02 AM
Even when the pieces fit perfectly though, with guys like Nash, Stat, Matrix, Bell, Barbosa, Johnson, etc. it still never worked.

3 all stars in their primes in Nash, Stat and Matrix, plus a deep bench with 3 point shooters, and he still couldn't get it done.

There was a pretty good reason why they didn't get it done and one of them was not because they couldn't...

People forget what leads to things happening at a certain point and just remember that it happened.

kblo247
12-01-2013, 05:01 AM
I don't get this he will make the offense worse thing. They had worse three point shooting, worse spacing, and Dwight inept posting up *** with Kobe as the primarily facilitator on a team with the 6th best O rating in the league. They are in the 20s now, barely get free throws, and post scoring is down .. Kobe can improve that. And as long as they use similar tweaked rotations, ie Hill sliding down to 5 when Pau sits, Wes and Shawne getting 4 time, and Meeks/Nick/Farmar/Blake at the 1 and 2 everything should be good as Kobe will hit his shooters and cutters. How the hell do you think Ariza got paid, Vlad and Sasha got such big roles on a finals team, or Barnes liked playing with him?


I'd be and am way more worried what happens if Nash returns as Nash is automatically getting to start at pg and not practicing with the team at all. Nash didn't even practice in camp with the guys, just got the start. That pushed the whole thing out of whack as Blake becomes ineffective at SG and the d lacks at the one. There's no continuity there as Kobe will be and is practicing but Nash won't and hasn't if he returns

Supreme LA
12-01-2013, 05:59 AM
Lakers aren't getting to the second round with or without Kobe.

You say that with absolute certainty but you know nothing. I'm sure you agreed with ESPN's ranking of 12th for Lakers by season's end and I'm sure you agreed with Kobe being ranked 25th this season also.

If healthy, Kobe isn't the man you should doubt.

Guppyfighter
12-01-2013, 06:09 AM
You say that with absolute certainty but you know nothing. I'm sure you agreed with ESPN's ranking of 12th for Lakers by season's end and I'm sure you agreed with Kobe being ranked 25th this season also.

If healthy, Kobe isn't the man you should doubt.

Wow. A Laker fan overstating his team's ability. Color me shocked.

Supreme LA
12-01-2013, 06:37 AM
Wow. A Laker fan overstating his team's ability. Color me shocked.

Wow. A Laker/Kobe hater underestimating Kobe and the Lakers. Color me shocked.

It goes both ways moron.

PurpleLynch
12-01-2013, 07:09 AM
Since he's old now and coming off a bad injury,I think that he'll play like 20-25 minutes a game,so I'm not worried about the chemistry,but probably Henry will be cut form the rotation. And I hope D'Antoni will not do the same mistake of last year overusing him.

mightybosstone
12-01-2013, 11:16 AM
all the lakers have to do is go two games better than .500 to be better than they have been thus far. ill take those odds.

I look at the Lakers' roster and their margin of victory, and I clearly see a team that has overachieved and should easily be 3-4 games worse than they currently are. If/when Kobe joins this roster and it messes with the chemistry, I would expect a lot of losses until they figure out how to incorporate him into the scheme again.

I mean.... your second and third leading scorers are Nick Young and Jodie Meeks. Nick Young. And. Jodie Meeks. Think about that for a second and ask yourself if you really think this Lakers team should be 9-8 right now.

mightybosstone
12-01-2013, 11:26 AM
The question I would have for Lakers fans isn't whether you think the Lakers will be better with Kobe. It's whether you really want this team to be sitting at the 8 seed at the end of the season without a decent draft pick and with Mike D'Antoni as your coach. From my perspective, this team seems to have more to gain from losing than it does from winning.

If you lose, you could feasibly be sitting in the 5-10 spot in the lottery and feasibly could get a top 3 pick in the most talented draft in years. Also, D'Antoni is likely fired sometime this season and the Lakers can get a coach that actually makes sense to build this squad around. If they win, the Lakers will probably end up getting slaughtered in the first round, get a mediocre draft pick that is unlikely to help them and there's a good chance D'Antoni will get to stick around another season. Do you really want that?

LoveMeOrHateMe
12-01-2013, 11:40 AM
Kobe wasn't a top five player last year and if he was the Lakers would have been the sixth seed rather comfortably.

Kobe was top 5 easily! It was injuries last year that kept us from having a top seed they did finish with the best record after the all-star break though

Vinylman
12-01-2013, 11:51 AM
I can't believe some people are actually defending D'antoni and his system.

No offense but if you guys had him as your coach, you would not like him at all. Doesn't coach defense, his rotations are absurd, and I find him pretty arrogant and over confident.

What has Mike D'antoni done in the NBA outside of having a perfect mix of players to fit his system in Phoenix? How far has that gotten him?


Knicks and Lakers fans understand this lol, trust me, you guys have no idea how bad it is

preach...

gotta love those last 6 games being so hard :rolleyes:

xxplayerxx23
12-01-2013, 12:09 PM
Do laker fans think Kobe makes them contenders?

beliges
12-01-2013, 12:25 PM
Do laker fans think Kobe makes them contenders?

Lakers don't have the talent to be contenders. But with kobe they at least have a feasible chance to advance in the playoffs. This is as good as this season gets for the lakers this year.

nickdymez
12-01-2013, 12:33 PM
You cant have a decent conversation on this site without obvious hate. There are a few people here that you can bet on to hate the Lakers/Kobe EVERYTIME. Its ridiculous. Im not a Lebron/Heat fan, but i dont go into every post just to hate. I dont understand why people do that here. And those people never get banned.

On topic. Kobe is an upgrade.

JNA17
12-01-2013, 01:14 PM
Three things could happen when Kobe returns.

1. Kobe comes back and after watching how the team produces without him, he realizes that he needs to become more of a facilitator and continue to move the ball on offense. In other words, Kobe becomes what Nash was with Pheonix, except Kobe in his position will look to score more but at e same time, with the amount of attention Kobe gets, he can easily kick it out to the open player and not worry about guys like Ron Artest bricking or air balling anymore. Assuming Kobe returns to last year's form, and if THIS happens, Kobe then will put up career assists numbers followed by 20+ scoring.

2. The offense goes back to Kobe controlling most of the offense and Isos most of the time. The offense goes back to looking slow and the shooters as a result will brick a lot more shots. Kobe will then also average a lot more turn overs and the team constantly struggles.

3. Kobe becomes a shell of his former self. No need to clarify.

What most people here don't understand about the Lakers current shooting is that THEY ARE NOT JUST CHUCKING UP SHOTS. They are constantly moving the ball and find the open man, thus the Lakers are shooting EFFICIENT shots. That's why the Lakers are currently the number 1 three point shooting team in the league. They look for the best shots, not just chuck up crap like most people here assume.

As far as how far the Lakers will go this season, I have been pretty proud of this team so far. The Lakers besides the recent road trip have faced an incredibly hard schedule and they still manage to go over 500 with Kobe out and with a team most people would describe as "journeymen". There are still quite a few problems with this team for sure, but I'm actually loving what I'm seeing.

This is the type of core role players the Lakers should have had last season. Young, athletic players with nothing to lose and a lot to gain. Players that actually wanted to come here not because of a possible ring. This team is much different chemistry wise as well without cancers like you know who that was on the team last year. They are fun to watch and are very likable. Will that translate into contenders this year? I'm still going with a hell no, bit this is something that will give Lakers fans hope for the future to come and how maybe the Lakers don't need 2 superstars and 1 all star just to compete later down the line.

TimeForAHoliday
12-01-2013, 01:43 PM
Negative differential. Pretty bad team.

Yet they are above .500. Explain that fgt.

WES KOAST
12-01-2013, 01:44 PM
thoughts? will this trend continue when kobe returns? lakers have been surprisingly good. anybody willing to give dantoni credit now?

no. lakers still suck. even with kobe. nodantoni still sux

xxplayerxx23
12-01-2013, 01:44 PM
Ofcourse Kobe is an upgrade. They may be an 7-8 seed but they won't go anywhere

WES KOAST
12-01-2013, 01:46 PM
You cant have a decent conversation on this site without obvious hate. There are a few people here that you can bet on to hate the Lakers/Kobe EVERYTIME. Its ridiculous. Im not a Lebron/Heat fan, but i dont go into every post just to hate. I dont understand why people do that here. And those people never get banned.

On topic. Kobe is an upgrade.

just because people are brutally honest don't mean they hate.

Almighty Push
12-01-2013, 01:48 PM
2 words: fool's gold

WES KOAST
12-01-2013, 01:51 PM
Ofcourse Kobe is an upgrade. They may be an 7-8 seed but they won't go anywhere

which teams would they uproot? lakers are lotto

Guppyfighter
12-01-2013, 02:51 PM
Yet they are above .500. Explain that fgt.

Sample size, baby.

savvy1803
12-01-2013, 03:25 PM
Three things could happen when Kobe returns.

1. Kobe comes back and after watching how the team produces without him, he realizes that he needs to become more of a facilitator and continue to move the ball on offense. In other words, Kobe becomes what Nash was with Pheonix, except Kobe in his position will look to score more but at e same time, with the amount of attention Kobe gets, he can easily kick it out to the open player and not worry about guys like Ron Artest bricking or air balling anymore. Assuming Kobe returns to last year's form, and if THIS happens, Kobe then will put up career assists numbers followed by 20+ scoring.

2. The offense goes back to Kobe controlling most of the offense and Isos most of the time. The offense goes back to looking slow and the shooters as a result will brick a lot more shots. Kobe will then also average a lot more turn overs and the team constantly struggles.

3. Kobe becomes a shell of his former self. No need to clarify.

What most people here don't understand about the Lakers current shooting is that THEY ARE NOT JUST CHUCKING UP SHOTS. They are constantly moving the ball and find the open man, thus the Lakers are shooting EFFICIENT shots. That's why the Lakers are currently the number 1 three point shooting team in the league. They look for the best shots, not just chuck up crap like most people here assume.

As far as how far the Lakers will go this season, I have been pretty proud of this team so far. The Lakers besides the recent road trip have faced an incredibly hard schedule and they still manage to go over 500 with Kobe out and with a team most people would describe as "journeymen". There are still quite a few problems with this team for sure, but I'm actually loving what I'm seeing.

This is the type of core role players the Lakers should have had last season. Young, athletic players with nothing to lose and a lot to gain. Players that actually wanted to come here not because of a possible ring. This team is much different chemistry wise as well without cancers like you know who that was on the team last year. They are fun to watch and are very likable. Will that translate into contenders this year? I'm still going with a hell no, bit this is something that will give Lakers fans hope for the future to come and how maybe the Lakers don't need 2 superstars and 1 all star just to compete later down the line.

Great post .

kblo247
12-01-2013, 03:47 PM
This is hard to explain, but yes, I think the Lakers are going to lose more games with Kobe Bryant than without. And that doesn't say anything about Kobe necessarily as it says something about D'Antoni's system and the fact that Kobe doesn't fit into it particularly well. D'Antoni wants to get out and run and likes to employ a lot of ball movement that leads to 3s on the perimeter. Kobe is just a bad fit.

The team is far more talented with Kobe. I'm not debating that. I'm not saying Kobe's a bad player in the slightest. I still think he's capable of being a top 10-15 guy when healthy. I'm saying that the reason this Lakers team is winning games is because they're going all out D'Antoni basketball and hitting threes at an obscene rate. By inserting Kobe into the offense, you're going to inevitably kill that.

Please don't confuse "the Lakers will lose games" with "the Lakers are going to be worse because Kobe Bryant sucks." Those are not the same concepts, and I'm clearly not saying anything negative about Kobe.
Rambis deserves some love. It's not all Dantoni at all.

Rambis is the one calling the traps, the presses, and the guy who along with Madsen has been working on the defensive game of Nick young and Wes Johnson. You see stuff like Nick young taking a charge and fighting to not be posted up by Harrison Barnes this year, and after he does it, they acknowledge him. After he took the charge, the first guy on the bench he went to was Madsen. The first guy when Wes needs help he goes to is Rambis, and even Meeks has said Rambis told him just press your guy, push the ball and don't worry if you make a mistake.

Rambis with Phil's lead defensive assistant and people forget there was a team just like this in 08, not pegged to do anything or make the playoffs, people laughing at Ariza and Fisher being saviors, and saying Kobe can't lead that youth as they will implode. That same team is similar to what this team is doing just with different guys acting like Turiaf, Vlad, Ariza, and Sasha. They fight, and that 08 team got the number 1 record out west pre Pau because of it, and this team is where they are because of it.

Will Kobe coming back have a bump or two? Sure. Is the O right now as good as last year with Kobe running it, nope as that was top 6 even with bad shooting, no transition, and poor post up numbers from Dwight. The way this team is shooting the 3 ball and playing, it goes overlooked they aren't getting free throws or post scoring and experience droughts. This is Dantoni coaching so its plausible to think Wes could start at 4, Meeks at 2, and Kobe at 3 especially since that's the unit he's practiced with alongside Blake and Pau. That still leaves a very strong second group with Farmar, Young, Henry behind Kobe for 15 minutes of rest, Williams, and Hill giving 20 hard minutes behind Pau. And if he sticks with that, it still plays on every strength there is as the 3 point shooting would still be there, transition buckets, a pnr game with Pau, and Kobe aka the leagues best post guy last year in droughts.

I get you can say they over achieved and shouldn't be where they are, but I can just as easily argue, that with Kobe they had a chance to win at least 3 games. They played the spurs damn near even and couldn't get buckets or free throws the last 4 minutes. They played Denver and couldn't get buckets the last 6 minutes. They played Washington and lost without a scorer the last 2 minutes. They have also been "blown out" by Dallas and the warriors but that was week one and we are talking a team that had gotten so used to Kobe countering runs by also scoring.

This team has upside, Kobe's not blind to it, and he told Rick Fox as much. He said he watched them in camp and made the decision not to rush back when that was his original plan even if he was limited, but he thought they had what it took to be relevant and he'd just have to integrate back in and rerun right without minutes restrictions or b2b restrictions.

And again I'm saying people need to worry more about Nash. Nash is the guy that throws things off whack. He didn't practice in training camp or the preseason but still started. He didn't practice this season and skipped b2b games, and that forced guys like Blake out of position at SG and the team suffered. He's even said he doesn't plan on retiring but ideally he can play a game a week, while admitting he may not be able to practice. Dantoni will have to go against his guy because he can't come in and out when he feels like it.

Know you don't visit the laker board, but Bruno and shep both know I said it before the season started if Nash was benched and this team was healthy and hot, meaning their 3 ball falling and Kobe 80% or more of last years Kobe they are dangerous for matchups. I'm not saying they will win, but I've maintained they are similar to the 08 team pre Pau trade, and that they can surprise someone and have a legit shot in the right bracket of advancing. You may say its crazy but the clippers at 2 and the Lakers at 7 if they are right is something the team would like. You stay at staples for 2 1/2 weeks without ever traveling, and it gets better if GS is in the 3//6 bracket. Don't write em off, they laughed at the time and said this looked like a tank team, but LA doesn't tank, Jerry would roll over in his grave if they did purposely without injuries killing them, and the guys truly like one another and are competing characters who chose to be Lakers unlike last year

Pablonovi
12-01-2013, 04:41 PM
Three things could happen when Kobe returns.

1. Kobe comes back and after watching how the team produces without him, he realizes that he needs to become more of a facilitator and continue to move the ball on offense. In other words, Kobe becomes what Nash was with Pheonix, except Kobe in his position will look to score more but at e same time, with the amount of attention Kobe gets, he can easily kick it out to the open player and not worry about guys like Ron Artest bricking or air balling anymore. Assuming Kobe returns to last year's form, and if THIS happens, Kobe then will put up career assists numbers followed by 20+ scoring.

2. The offense goes back to Kobe controlling most of the offense and Isos most of the time. The offense goes back to looking slow and the shooters as a result will brick a lot more shots. Kobe will then also average a lot more turn overs and the team constantly struggles.

3. Kobe becomes a shell of his former self. No need to clarify.

What most people here don't understand about the Lakers current shooting is that THEY ARE NOT JUST CHUCKING UP SHOTS. They are constantly moving the ball and find the open man, thus the Lakers are shooting EFFICIENT shots. That's why the Lakers are currently the number 1 three point shooting team in the league. They look for the best shots, not just chuck up crap like most people here assume.

As far as how far the Lakers will go this season, I have been pretty proud of this team so far. The Lakers besides the recent road trip have faced an incredibly hard schedule and they still manage to go over 500 with Kobe out and with a team most people would describe as "journeymen". There are still quite a few problems with this team for sure, but I'm actually loving what I'm seeing.

This is the type of core role players the Lakers should have had last season. Young, athletic players with nothing to lose and a lot to gain. Players that actually wanted to come here not because of a possible ring. This team is much different chemistry wise as well without cancers like you know who that was on the team last year. They are fun to watch and are very likable. Will that translate into contenders this year? I'm still going with a hell no, bit this is something that will give Lakers fans hope for the future to come and how maybe the Lakers don't need 2 superstars and 1 all star just to compete later down the line.

Hey JNA17,
Great Post.

It's certainly possible; but I'm betting Kobe will not be a crappy player. He's extremely b-ball smart, no one out trains him; and, he knows full well what's at stake.

Pablonovi
12-01-2013, 04:44 PM
Rambis deserves some love. It's not all Dantoni at all.

Rambis is the one calling the traps, the presses, and the guy who along with Madsen has been working on the defensive game of Nick young and Wes Johnson. You see stuff like Nick young taking a charge and fighting to not be posted up by Harrison Barnes this year, and after he does it, they acknowledge him. After he took the charge, the first guy on the bench he went to was Madsen. The first guy when Wes needs help he goes to is Rambis, and even Meeks has said Rambis told him just press your guy, push the ball and don't worry if you make a mistake.

Rambis with Phil's lead defensive assistant and people forget there was a team just like this in 08, not pegged to do anything or make the playoffs, people laughing at Ariza and Fisher being saviors, and saying Kobe can't lead that youth as they will implode. That same team is similar to what this team is doing just with different guys acting like Turiaf, Vlad, Ariza, and Sasha. They fight, and that 08 team got the number 1 record out west pre Pau because of it, and this team is where they are because of it.

Will Kobe coming back have a bump or two? Sure. Is the O right now as good as last year with Kobe running it, nope as that was top 6 even with bad shooting, no transition, and poor post up numbers from Dwight. The way this team is shooting the 3 ball and playing, it goes overlooked they aren't getting free throws or post scoring and experience droughts. This is Dantoni coaching so its plausible to think Wes could start at 4, Meeks at 2, and Kobe at 3 especially since that's the unit he's practiced with alongside Blake and Pau. That still leaves a very strong second group with Farmar, Young, Henry behind Kobe for 15 minutes of rest, Williams, and Hill giving 20 hard minutes behind Pau. And if he sticks with that, it still plays on every strength there is as the 3 point shooting would still be there, transition buckets, a pnr game with Pau, and Kobe aka the leagues best post guy last year in droughts.

I get you can say they over achieved and shouldn't be where they are, but I can just as easily argue, that with Kobe they had a chance to win at least 3 games. They played the spurs damn near even and couldn't get buckets or free throws the last 4 minutes. They played Denver and couldn't get buckets the last 6 minutes. They played Washington and lost without a scorer the last 2 minutes. They have also been "blown out" by Dallas and the warriors but that was week one and we are talking a team that had gotten so used to Kobe countering runs by also scoring.

This team has upside, Kobe's not blind to it, and he told Rick Fox as much. He said he watched them in camp and made the decision not to rush back when that was his original plan even if he was limited, but he thought they had what it took to be relevant and he'd just have to integrate back in and rerun right without minutes restrictions or b2b restrictions.

And again I'm saying people need to worry more about Nash. Nash is the guy that throws things off whack. He didn't practice in training camp or the preseason but still started. He didn't practice this season and skipped b2b games, and that forced guys like Blake out of position at SG and the team suffered. He's even said he doesn't plan on retiring but ideally he can play a game a week, while admitting he may not be able to practice. Dantoni will have to go against his guy because he can't come in and out when he feels like it.

Know you don't visit the laker board, but Bruno and shep both know I said it before the season started if Nash was benched and this team was healthy and hot, meaning their 3 ball falling and Kobe 80% or more of last years Kobe they are dangerous for matchups. I'm not saying they will win, but I've maintained they are similar to the 08 team pre Pau trade, and that they can surprise someone and have a legit shot in the right bracket of advancing. You may say its crazy but the clippers at 2 and the Lakers at 7 if they are right is something the team would like. You stay at staples for 2 1/2 weeks without ever traveling, and it gets better if GS is in the 3//6 bracket. Don't write em off, they laughed at the time and said this looked like a tank team, but LA doesn't tank, Jerry would roll over in his grave if they did purposely without injuries killing them, and the guys truly like one another and are competing characters who chose to be Lakers unlike last year

Hey kblo247,
Great post.
It's been my hope (too) and since early in the season that IF Nash makes it back to being able to play quality ball; that he'd be on the 2nd unit; playing a leading role there by doing what he always did best, very high-quality: spot up shooting (FTs) and passing.

Pablonovi
12-01-2013, 04:47 PM
I've enjoyed this thread a lot better than the average Lakers- , Kobe- and/or MDA- thread because there's been more positivity (which I consider realistic); less negativity; some big-time contributions; and only a tiny bit of what I consider to be exaggerated heat.

Nice job team!

Bruno
12-01-2013, 06:00 PM
I look at the Lakers' roster and their margin of victory, and I clearly see a team that has overachieved and should easily be 3-4 games worse than they currently are. If/when Kobe joins this roster and it messes with the chemistry, I would expect a lot of losses until they figure out how to incorporate him into the scheme again.

I mean.... your second and third leading scorers are Nick Young and Jodie Meeks. Nick Young. And. Jodie Meeks. Think about that for a second and ask yourself if you really think this Lakers team should be 9-8 right now.

I do. the team is 14th out of 30 in SRS. that sounds pretty middle of the pack, pretty .500 to me. sure we stole a game against the Clippers and we beat Golden state without Curry but we blew a very winnable game against Washington a few days ago.

LAL is 2nd in most threes made, 4th in three point percentage, 6th in total rebounds, 6th in assists, 4th in blocks, and in the top half of the league in defensive rating. you can look at the individual players and scratch your head but the team has managed to play well together and off each other.

i understand where you're coming from but I like what I see and totally buy this team going two games above .500 from here out. LAL is 8th in the west as of today.

Bruno
12-01-2013, 06:03 PM
The question I would have for Lakers fans isn't whether you think the Lakers will be better with Kobe. It's whether you really want this team to be sitting at the 8 seed at the end of the season without a decent draft pick and with Mike D'Antoni as your coach. From my perspective, this team seems to have more to gain from losing than it does from winning.

If you lose, you could feasibly be sitting in the 5-10 spot in the lottery and feasibly could get a top 3 pick in the most talented draft in years. Also, D'Antoni is likely fired sometime this season and the Lakers can get a coach that actually makes sense to build this squad around. If they win, the Lakers will probably end up getting slaughtered in the first round, get a mediocre draft pick that is unlikely to help them and there's a good chance D'Antoni will get to stick around another season. Do you really want that?

strategically, I'd love to tank, sit kobe the year, trade pau and nash and clear cap while trying to get wiggins. but Kobe is coming back and there's nothing we can do about it. plus, this team has .500 written all over them without Kobe so I just don't see a tank happening with this group of over-achievers. when considering that, I'm going to enjoy watching this team go down gunning this year. we aren't contenders but we play with energy and effort and the guys really back each other up. i love watching this kind of basketball and hope that kobe can help.

in the right matchup against the right team, LAL could shoot themselves into the second round. unlikely, but possible. If they make it to the post-season LAL could steal a few games and maybe even a series against the right team. i know you'll think thats ridiculous and it might be but well see.

kobe4thewinbang
12-01-2013, 09:44 PM
in the right matchup against the right team, LAL could shoot themselves into the second round. unlikely, but possible. If they make it to the post-season LAL could steal a few games and maybe even a series against the right team. i know you'll think thats ridiculous and it might be but well see.Lakers *could* make it to the 2nd round if they get the 5th (in which they'd play the 4th seed) or 6th seed (in which they'd play the 3rd seed). But obviously 7th or 8th seed is a 1st round exit. Having Kobe will help, who they didn't even have against the Spurs, as well as a better overall roster and less pressure than last year.

kblo247
12-01-2013, 09:48 PM
Lakers *could* make it to the 2nd round if they get the 5th (in which they'd play the 4th seed) or 6th seed (in which they'd play the 3rd seed). But obviously 7th or 8th seed is a 1st round exit. Having Kobe will help, who they didn't even have against the Spurs, as well as a better overall roster.
If the Clips are 2nd is something you wouldn't like?

A team with young athletic guys like this, Kobe, Pau, and even old man Nash if he finds some thing left to me is a good thing. You would stay at home for almost 2 full weeks with the way that the first round is spread out and that's a benefit that can help you down the line IMO

kobe4thewinbang
12-01-2013, 09:59 PM
If the Clips are 2nd is something you wouldn't like?

A team with young athletic guys like this, Kobe, Pau, and even old man Nash if he finds some thing left to me is a good thing. You would stay at home for almost 2 full weeks with the way that the first round is spread out and that's a benefit that can help you down the line IMOI think the Clippers would beat the Lakers, once they sort out the little issues they have right now. Who knows how the seeding will turn out, though. It would be like having at most 7 home games.

Pablonovi
12-02-2013, 05:55 PM
If the Clips are 2nd is something you wouldn't like?

A team with young athletic guys like this, Kobe, Pau, and even old man Nash if he finds some thing left to me is a good thing. You would stay at home for almost 2 full weeks with the way that the first round is spread out and that's a benefit that can help you down the line IMO

Hey kblo247,
Things regularly happen right before and during the playoffs which result in unexpected results. In boxing it is said that "match-ups make the fight." That is also the case In the other professional sports, where a generally inferior team can beat a generally superior one because of the specific match-ups.

I'm betting Kobe is at least 80% by late in the regular season; with a decent chance at 90+ (because of his work-ethic and smarts). Start with that, and think of Dirk and the Mavs 3 years ago. They weren't supposed to get the Chip by a long shot; but he was insanely brilliant, the rest of the team got hot, the matchups worked in their favor, and the rest is history. I would never bet against a Kobe-led team in the playoffs. And then there's this year's squad. Add in the savy/smarts/skills of Pau and Nash (even diminished from their peaks). Then there is the rest of this team; which is something quite special. We've got ENERGY galore; we're "10-deep", with every game displaying somebody else "going off"; and several others making valuable contributions.

It is NOT out of the realm of possibilities that the Lakers go into the playoffs HOT AND HUNGRY.

Give us the Clips for an all-home-game series to start off with. Then give us the best possible 2nd round match-up, WITH us much better rested than them. In the WCF and Finals, the injury wild-card always in play too; it might hit "the other guys" this year like it hit us last year.

I would MUCH rather see us in the playoffs than not (regardless of ALL other considerations); because it a better character-builder to fight for wins than to tank; AND, because surprises happen in the playoffs. *

* And, also so Kobe can rack up more playoff stats. He has a chance to be the #1 player ever in some individual categories, end up very high in others, and will move up in all of them:

games (he needs just 25 more to be #1; with 30, he'd be the first to 250 games),

minutes (with only 210 more he'd be #1; with 359 he'd be the first to 9,000), and

points (with 123 more, he passes KAJ for 2nd, with 348 he passes MJ for #1, and with 360, he'd be the first with 6,000 pts).

assists: Currently Nash is 5th, 1 assist behind Bird, and Kobe is 7th, 22 assists behind Bird. So, the two of them are going to end up 4th and 5th All-Time in Assists. The sooner the better.

steals: Kobe is currently 5th, and with 29 more, would pass Stockton for 4th All-Time.

rebounds: Kobe is not renowned as a rebounder, yet he currently IS 41st All-Time, and 3rd Rebounding Guard All-Time (one spot behind MJ; though way behind Magic); with just 34 more rebounds he passes MJ for #2 Guard All-Time and joins the All-Time Top 40 Playoff Rebounders. Pau is currently All-Time 38th, and with just 38 more rebounds he'd joint the All-Time Top 50 Playoff Rebounders. With 88 rebounds, he'd move all the way up to 42nd All-Time.

blocks: Kobe is not renowned as a shot-blocker, yet he currently IS 38th and would move into the All-Time Top 25 with just 30 rebounds more. He'd pass MJ for 2nd All-Time Guard; and be just behind DWade (at the least). Pau, currently All-Time 18th, with 196, needs only 4 to be only the 18th to reach 200. With 54, he'd be only the 12th to ever reach 250, and with 56, he'd be #10 All-Time Playoff Rebounder.

Not a small thing to include amongst his/their personal achievements; and not a small thing to have a LAKER atop those lists (and to have another Laker, KAJ also in the top 2-3 All-Time in all three of these categories too); and to have other (partial-career) Lakers (like Pau and Nash) moving high up on those lists too.

I'm NOT opposed to Lakers dominating the All-Time Play-Off lists, for sure.

N.B. For those who would point out that Kobe will have achieved these various great Play-Off Stats Heights because he played more games than most others on the lists:
1) In the first place, the number of games one has played does not matter to these lists, if you have the most points, you have the most points (with nobody ever citing that one player had more games than another; why should an exception be made only in Kobe's case; only to downplay Kobe's achievements); in particular:

2) KAJ played in the 3rd most Playoff Games ever (and is #1 in total minutes played); yet nobody has ever attempted to put-down that he is the All-Time Play-Off Leader in several categories; and

3) MJ played in the 16th most Playoff Games ever (and is #10 in total minutes played); yet nobody has ever attempted to put-down that he is the All-Time Play-Off Leader in several categories.

WES KOAST
12-02-2013, 06:13 PM
Hey kblo247,
Things regularly happen right before and during the playoffs which result in unexpected results. In boxing it is said that "match-ups make the fight." That is also the case In the other professional sports, where a generally inferior team can beat a generally superior one because of the specific match-ups.

I'm betting Kobe is at least 80% by late in the regular season; with a decent chance at 90+ (because of his work-ethic and smarts). Start with that, and think of Dirk and the Mavs 3 years ago. They weren't supposed to get the Chip by a long shot; but he was insanely brilliant, the rest of the team got hot, the matchups worked in their favor, and the rest is history. I would never bet against a Kobe-led team in the playoffs. And then there's this year's squad. Add in the savy/smarts/skills of Pau and Nash (even diminished from their peaks). Then there is the rest of this team; which is something quite special. We've got ENERGY galore; we're "10-deep", with every game displaying somebody else "going off"; and several others making valuable contributions.

It is NOT out of the realm of possibilities that the Lakers go into the playoffs HOT AND HUNGRY.

Give us the Clips for an all-home-game series to start off with. Then give us the best possible 2nd round match-up, WITH us much better rested than them. In the WCF and Finals, the injury wild-card always in play too; it might hit "the other guys" this year like it hit us last year.

I would MUCH rather see us in the playoffs than not (regardless of ALL other considerations); because it a better character-builder to fight for wins than to tank; AND, because surprises happen in the playoffs. *

* And, also so Kobe can rack up more playoff stats. He has a chance to be the #1 player ever in some individual categories, end up very high in others, and will move up in all of them:

games (he needs just 25 more to be #1; with 30, he'd be the first to 250 games),

minutes (with only 210 more he'd be #1; with 359 he'd be the first to 9,000), and

points (with 123 more, he passes KAJ for 2nd, with 348 he passes MJ for #1, and with 360, he'd be the first with 6,000 pts).

assists: Currently Nash is 5th, 1 assist behind Bird, and Kobe is 7th, 22 assists behind Bird. So, the two of them are going to end up 4th and 5th All-Time in Assists. The sooner the better.

steals: Kobe is currently 5th, and with 29 more, would pass Stockton for 4th All-Time.

rebounds: Kobe is not renowned as a rebounder, yet he currently IS 41st All-Time, and 3rd Rebounding Guard All-Time (one spot behind MJ; though way behind Magic); with just 34 more rebounds he passes MJ for #2 Guard All-Time and joins the All-Time Top 40 Playoff Rebounders. Pau is currently All-Time 38th, and with just 38 more rebounds he'd joint the All-Time Top 50 Playoff Rebounders. With 88 rebounds, he'd move all the way up to 42nd All-Time.

blocks: Kobe is not renowned as a shot-blocker, yet he currently IS 38th and would move into the All-Time Top 25 with just 30 rebounds more. He'd pass MJ for 2nd All-Time Guard; and be just behind DWade (at the least). Pau, currently All-Time 18th, with 196, needs only 4 to be only the 18th to reach 200. With 54, he'd be only the 12th to ever reach 250, and with 56, he'd be #10 All-Time Playoff Rebounder.

Not a small thing to include amongst his personal achievements; and not a small thing to have a LAKER atop those lists (and to have another Laker, KAJ also in the top 2-3 All-Time in all three of these categories too).

I'm NOT opposed to Lakers dominating the All-Time Play-Off lists, for sure.

N.B. For those who would point out that Kobe will have achieved these various great Play-Off Stats Heights because he played more games than most others on the lists:
1) In the first place, the number of games one has played does not matter to these lists, if you have the most points, you have the most points (with nobody ever citing that one player had more games than another; why should an exception be made only in Kobe's case; only to downplay Kobe's achievements); in particular:

2) KAJ played in the 3rd most Playoff Games ever (and is #1 in total minutes played); yet nobody has ever attempted to put-down that he is the All-Time Play-Off Leader in several categories; and

3) MJ played in the 16th most Playoff Games ever (and is #10 in total minutes played); yet nobody has ever attempted to put-down that he is the All-Time Play-Off Leader in several categories.

dude post too long. just stick to a couple of lines, otherwise no one reads it

Supreme LA
12-02-2013, 08:07 PM
dude post too long. just stick to a couple of lines, otherwise no one reads it

Actually, the majority of people who enter this thread will read it. It's just the lazy, dumb, and ignorant people who never really have anything intelligent to add that don't read it.

kblo247
12-02-2013, 08:53 PM
Farmar out a month, Nash a fossil, and Blake hyperextended his shooting elbow. Top that off with Pau and Hill having ankle sprains

SMDH

Kobe's return is right on time it seems for what all this team will need. Least we know they all got some fight

Pablonovi
12-04-2013, 08:05 PM
Actually, the majority of people who enter this thread will read it. It's just the lazy, dumb, and ignorant people who never really have anything intelligent to add that don't read it.

Hey Supreme LA,
Is there anyway to know what percent of people read a post?

A long post, naturally, tends to take more time to type. I put in a bunch of effort on that one. Why? Because it is another serious consideration about a team qualifying for the playoffs, how it would benefit the individual team member's career playoff stats.

I wouldn't want to characterize everybody who doesn't read a long post general, or that particular long post, as being "lazy, dumb and ignorant who never really have anything intelligent to add..." A person can have any number of reasons for not doing so; including accidentally skipping it, not liking how it starts, now being interested in its particular subject matter (though they are interested in the OP topic); a smart person who doesn't like to read anything beyond a couple of lines (on a mostly sports-chat site); not liking the author; etc.

No need to come down hard and/or disparage for having different habits than oneself, no?

Supreme LA
12-04-2013, 11:29 PM
Hey Supreme LA,
Is there anyway to know what percent of people read a post?

A long post, naturally, tends to take more time to type. I put in a bunch of effort on that one. Why? Because it is another serious consideration about a team qualifying for the playoffs, how it would benefit the individual team member's career playoff stats.

I wouldn't want to characterize everybody who doesn't read a long post general, or that particular long post, as being "lazy, dumb and ignorant who never really have anything intelligent to add..." A person can have any number of reasons for not doing so; including accidentally skipping it, not liking how it starts, now being interested in its particular subject matter (though they are interested in the OP topic); a smart person who doesn't like to read anything beyond a couple of lines (on a mostly sports-chat site); not liking the author; etc.

No need to come down hard and/or disparage for having different habits than oneself, no?

I know man. I was only targeting that guy because all he does is bait and derail threads. He never has anything to add. I wouldn't come down on just anybody like that. There was a perfectly good reason. The guy is a moron.

Chronz
12-05-2013, 11:40 AM
The fall is coming. Lakers have played inspired ball, but eventually the lack of talent has to catch up to them. It has too, the West is too damn strong.

kblo247
12-05-2013, 06:11 PM
The fall is coming. Lakers have played inspired ball, but eventually the lack of talent has to catch up to them. It has too, the West is too damn strong.

Has too or you want it to?

Pablonovi
12-05-2013, 06:21 PM
The fall is coming. Lakers have played inspired ball, but eventually the lack of talent has to catch up to them. It has too, the West is too damn strong.

Hey High Horse,
Seems to me there is, given this exact moment (.500 plus Kobe (and Nash) coming back); that there is much more solid reason for optimism than pessimism. NOBODY had the Lakers at .500 thru 20 games WITHOUT Kobe; yet here we are; and the non-Kobe majority of the team may very well not be near their individual and collective Peaks. I would expect them to keep, slowly but surely, improving.

I can't know, but I'm betting on Kobe being a significant upgrade to what we already have (and what we would expect to have, even without him, later in the season).

I bet they:
make the playoffs;
steadily improve in doing so; and
might NOT be an easy first-round out at all.

Pablonovi
12-05-2013, 06:23 PM
I know man. I was only targeting that guy because all he does is bait and derail threads. He never has anything to add. I wouldn't come down on just anybody like that. There was a perfectly good reason. The guy is a moron.

Hey Supreme LA,
I can't disagree with anything you say; he seems to be one of the worst for negativity and for lack of positive contributions and for "acidity" of his negativity.

Makes you wonder if such a person might ever change and actually decide to try and make a useful contribution?

NBA_Starter
12-05-2013, 08:36 PM
They may make the playoffs when he comes back.

lol, please
12-05-2013, 09:40 PM
Super cool story. One of the coolest ever.

jerellh528
12-05-2013, 10:28 PM
Hey High Horse,
Seems to me there is, given this exact moment (.500 plus Kobe (and Nash) coming back); that there is much more solid reason for optimism than pessimism. NOBODY had the Lakers at .500 thru 20 games WITHOUT Kobe; yet here we are; and the non-Kobe majority of the team may very well not be near their individual and collective Peaks. I would expect them to keep, slowly but surely, improving.

I can't know, but I'm betting on Kobe being a significant upgrade to what we already have (and what we would expect to have, even without him, later in the season).

I bet they:
make the playoffs;
steadily improve in doing so; and
might NOT be an easy first-round out at all.

Don't forget the lakers have also played the third hardest schedule so far behind sacramento and memphis.

ILLUSIONIST^248
12-05-2013, 11:04 PM
Don't worry Lakers fans, when Kobe comes back and the Lakers are better than expected all the haters will disappear from these threads.

Pablonovi
12-06-2013, 02:51 AM
Don't worry Lakers fans, when Kobe comes back and the Lakers are better than expected all the haters will disappear from these threads.

Hey ILLUSIONIST^248,
That would, at least, make reading and participating in these threads a good deal more enjoyable. Just not running into exaggerated negativity about the team you most love, in every other post, would be such a relief. Such posts * just get in the way, like minor irritants, but irritants just the same in the "cool, groovy, vibe" we'd otherwise be riding from first post to last. Kind of like getting whiffs of diarrhea farts when you're amongst beautiful flowers you just love to smell.

* I'm making a clear distinction here between negative posts and negative posters; i.e., here I am NOT criticizing any poster in particular.

Kashmir13579
12-06-2013, 03:07 AM
It is up to KOBE how this shakes out. We are about to see if him being a high IQ player is fact or fiction.

Kashmir13579
12-06-2013, 03:13 AM
The fall is coming. Lakers have played inspired ball, but eventually the lack of talent has to catch up to them. It has too, the West is too damn strong.

Try to tell a bought-in D'antoni-ball squad that they lack talent to win games. They won't listen. Kobe has never fit that mold, though. Not saying he can't or won't adapt. It will be interesting to see it all unfold.

jerellh528
12-06-2013, 03:15 AM
It is up to KOBE how this shakes out. We are about to see if him being a high IQ player is fact or fiction.

I think we will see an overzealous Kobe for the first few weeks, just to show he's back and as good as ever, but when that subsides I truly think he will realize his role within the teams flow.

Kashmir13579
12-06-2013, 03:31 AM
I think we will see an overzealous Kobe for the first few weeks, just to show he's back and as good as ever, but when that subsides I truly think he will realize his role within the teams flow.
The thing with D'antoni's system is there is no middle ground. When Kobe starts freelancing ala 2011 Carmelo, it will throw the entire offense off kilter. Eventually, leading to a rift in the locker room; as you will have some players following coaches orders, and others following Kobe's lead. The Lakers and Kobe really need to hit the ground running, here. The west will not wait for them, figuring how to maximize Kobe's talents within the system.

A situation unfolded a couple years back with glaring similarities. Though history does tend to repeat itself, Lakers fans can hold solace in the fact that Kobe is a much better player than Carmelo, and i'd like to think more capable of seeing the bigger picture.

Pablonovi
12-06-2013, 03:37 AM
I think we will see an overzealous Kobe for the first few weeks, just to show he's back and as good as ever, but when that subsides I truly think he will realize his role within the teams flow.

Hey jerellh528,
We shouldn't be surprised if he has to work himself back into prime game-shape, a la Westbrook, DRose (temporarily), and others coming back from big injuries. They have NOT shot good percentages to begin with; but have still made contributions as they were playing their way back up to higher and higher levels. This may very well be unavoidable with Kobe too. (Though it would be seriously amazing if, super-rapidly, he gets back up to whatever his new max will turn out to be.)

About his IQ (referred to by Kashmir13579) and his role within the team; I don't believe there will be any significant problem, nor last long (after a very brief period of adjusting-chemistry). He has a max b-ball IQ; and he has a max need to make the team-work flow. He'll do the right thing.

Actually, I'm anticipating that he'll just love all this youth and energy and D; and, surrounded by that, he'll bring out the best in both his individual teammates and the group as a whole. I'm looking forward to this "2 thrills a minute" team amping it up to an even higher level.

Kashmir13579
12-06-2013, 03:46 AM
Hey jerellh528,
We shouldn't be surprised if he has to work himself back into prime game-shape, a la Westbrook, DRose (temporarily), and others coming back from big injuries. They have NOT shot good percentages to begin with; but have still made contributions as they were playing their way back up to higher and higher levels. This may very well be unavoidable with Kobe too. (Though it would be seriously amazing if, super-rapidly, he gets back up to whatever his new max will turn out to be.)

About his IQ (referred to by Kashmir13579) and his role within the team; I don't believe there will be any significant problem, nor last long (after a very brief period of adjusting-chemistry). He has a max b-ball IQ; and he has a max need to make the team-work flow. He'll do the right thing.

Actually, I'm anticipating that he'll just love all this youth and energy and D; and, surrounded by that, he'll bring out the best in both his individual teammates and the group as a whole. I'm looking forward to this "2 thrills a minute" team amping it up to an even higher level.
This is what i'm hoping for, but there is no denying it will take fundamental change on his part.

Pablonovi
12-06-2013, 04:08 AM
This is what i'm hoping for, but there is no denying it will take fundamental change on his part.

Hey Kashmir13579,
imo Kobe's gotten a extra-large bad rap for supposedly being a bad teammate, one who can't self-sacrifice for the greater good, one who can't adapt. As long as Shaq was Peak Shaq, Kobe fit around him, complimenting him. When there was NO 2nd super-star; and the only other alternative was to lose almost every game; Kobe went off. When the team added Pau, and Odom (and less so Bynum) was balling, Kobe worked with them, pushing them towards their max.-possible contributions. Then, last year, with a completely different team, he adjusted once again; leading us to having an excellent 2nd half record of 28-12 and making the playoffs.

A lot of fans don't want to see the major year-to-year adjustments he's made; (as they refuse to recognize that MDA is a good coach who also makes important adjustments.)

That's a huge part of b-ball IQ. Sure you gotta know your opponents strengths and weaknesses (so as to reduce their advantages and exploit those weaknesses); but you also gotta know how to maximize your own team's strengths and cover over its weaknesses. Kobe KNOWS this stuff about as good as anyone in today's game. He also KNOWS what is at stake for both the team (this year and beyond) AND for his personal post-career reputation. He knows that the more he maxes-out the team's performance; the better the team will do, the more it will surpass the pre-season universal disaster prediction of all the pundits; and the better that will reflect back on him. Further, it seriously builds for next year (both with the given talent and with more strongly appealing to others to come join in). Further, he's already been coaching (and studying) from the sidelines.

D'antoini's system encourages scoring produced by fine ball movement - Kobe can do more than "live with that". The surprisingly improved team defense (not great, but yes improved); is a boon for Kobe as well.

In sum, Kobe has everything to gain and nothing to lose by trying to best fit in within this team; AND, historically, he HAS adjusted his game to best meet the needs of the specific team he has been on each year.

Thus, I do deny that it will take "fundamental change" on his part; instead, I submit that he will, as usual, adequately, even superbly, and willingly / eagerly make whatever adjustments are necessary.

MTar786
12-06-2013, 11:20 AM
OK whatever you say, this thread isn't about kobe's ranking, but most people would disagree with you and admit he was somewhere in the top 4-7 last year. Also lakers floundered mostly because of chemistry and injuries. But I respect your opinion.

id say kobe was 4th or 5th best last season, if not better

MTar786
12-06-2013, 11:21 AM
intact if his defense was still elite he'd still be top anywhere between 1 and 3 every season easily.

L@ker4Life
12-06-2013, 12:47 PM
Even when Mike is winning, "fans" still discredit him. This team is built to fit his system. No one would be able to maximize the potential of these guys better than him. Just chill and enjoy the fact that your team is decent so far.


inprinciple with kobe it should go up and get around 47-50 wins.

But of course he may DISRUPT the ball flowing and the chemistry and make things worse.

It will be an interesting thing to watch develop.

Anyway a different coach could maybe have a better record right now for the team.

With another coach the team could be far worse. Two sides of the same coin. Mike D. has these young kids ballin with confidence it has been fun to watch.

I do agree with the Kobe thing...The talent level will rise but will he ruin the flow by being a ball stopper and will it screw with the chemistry. I don't think the later will be an issue however, the former may be. Either way it's going to be fun.

nickdymez
12-06-2013, 01:47 PM
id say kobe was 4th or 5th best last season, if not better

This is what i thought as well... Top 5 definitely

Guppyfighter
12-06-2013, 03:36 PM
Name value goes a long way in player rankings these days, uh

D-Leethal
12-06-2013, 04:18 PM
[/B]

With another coach the team could be far worse. Two sides of the same coin. Mike D. has these young kids ballin with confidence it has been fun to watch.

I do agree with the Kobe thing...The talent level will rise but will he ruin the flow by being a ball stopper and will it screw with the chemistry. I don't think the later will be an issue however, the former may be. Either way it's going to be fun.

Reminds me of the Linsanity run he had with nothing but crappy bench players + Tyson Chandler.

I am one of the few Knick fans who thinks Mike D is a very good coach. Not being robust doesn't mean your not a good coach. Get him "his guys" and you will reap the benefits. I can't wait for him to get another legit shot with PHX level talent that actually fits his system.

Pablonovi
12-06-2013, 07:01 PM
Reminds me of the Linsanity run he had with nothing but crappy bench players + Tyson Chandler.

I am one of the few Knick fans who thinks Mike D is a very good coach. Not being robust doesn't mean your not a good coach. Get him "his guys" and you will reap the benefits. I can't wait for him to get another legit shot with PHX level talent that actually fits his system.

Hey D-Leethal,
Like your comments; but what does "robust" mean?

Pablonovi
12-06-2013, 07:09 PM
Name value goes a long way in player rankings these days, uh

Hey Guppyfighter,
I don't know how much of a factor that is to tell the truth. It's a lot more believable when it comes to fans, particularly homer fans (no offense meant regards bans being homers, it is what it is, we are what we are).

But, the experts, widely, tend to closely agree in how they rank the top players each year. This is particularly true in the All-NBA First-Team, 2nd-Team, 3rd-Team rankings; a good deal less so with the MVP voting.

But, if the experts and the fans line up closely on a particular player (such as in this case, with Kobe last year being considered in the top 5); then wouldn't it seem likely that probably both groups (experts and fans) have it right (in stead of mostly being swayed mostly by name value)?

A question for you:
Do you think that "Name value goes a long way in player rankings these days" applies more-so nowadays than in the past? I tend to doubt there's been any great swing over the decades; but could be won over if given a compelling argument.

When, in your opinion, did "name value" start playing a much bigger role than it had in the past?

One example from the distant past: Bill Russell got 5 MVPs; yet, imo, he was never THE best player in the league in any year; Wilt was always better than him; and a great case can be made for such as: West, O, Baylor, Pettit. HIS particular Name Value, imo, went a long, long way in those MVP rankings.

Guppyfighter
12-06-2013, 09:40 PM
Hey Guppyfighter,
I don't know how much of a factor that is to tell the truth. It's a lot more believable when it comes to fans, particularly homer fans (no offense meant regards bans being homers, it is what it is, we are what we are).

But, the experts, widely, tend to closely agree in how they rank the top players each year. This is particularly true in the All-NBA First-Team, 2nd-Team, 3rd-Team rankings; a good deal less so with the MVP voting.

But, if the experts and the fans line up closely on a particular player (such as in this case, with Kobe last year being considered in the top 5); then wouldn't it seem likely that probably both groups (experts and fans) have it right (in stead of mostly being swayed mostly by name value)?

A question for you:
Do you think that "Name value goes a long way in player rankings these days" applies more-so nowadays than in the past? I tend to doubt there's been any great swing over the decades; but could be won over if given a compelling argument.

When, in your opinion, did "name value" start playing a much bigger role than it had in the past?

One example from the distant past: Bill Russell got 5 MVPs; yet, imo, he was never THE best player in the league in any year; Wilt was always better than him; and a great case can be made for such as: West, O, Baylor, Pettit. HIS particular Name Value, imo, went a long, long way in those MVP rankings.

People I consider experts don't place Kobe in top five. In fact, the people you are calling experts are as equally as fallible as the people who are just fans. They are reporters and 9/10 times pretty ignorant to the sport in question. The few actual experts eventually leave. Such as John Hollinger.

And for your question. No, I don't think that. I was being facetious. It's probably less true now then back in the day. We have more access to information and I think that gives us a pretty big advantage over anyone from the past when ranking players.

Pablonovi
12-07-2013, 03:22 PM
People I consider experts don't place Kobe in top five. In fact, the people you are calling experts are as equally as fallible as the people who are just fans. They are reporters and 9/10 times pretty ignorant to the sport in question. The few actual experts eventually leave. Such as John Hollinger.

And for your question. No, I don't think that. I was being facetious. It's probably less true now then back in the day. We have more access to information and I think that gives us a pretty big advantage over anyone from the past when ranking players.

Hey Guppyfighter,
I agree about the experts NOT placing Kobe in the All-Time GOAT Top 5; I might not be an expert (hehe); but I don't either.

Thanx for the clarification about you being facetious, you had me going there.

I agree, there probably was a lot more "big name" riding; than there is nowadays; exactly for the reason you give: much more available evidence leading to more objectivity/fairness.

Nice post.