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View Full Version : Where will Dirk finish on the all-time scoring list?



Bruno
11-26-2013, 12:07 AM
He just passed KG tonight, moving into 14th place on the all time nba scoring list. He's a little over 3,000 points away from Shaq who stands at 6th. how many more can Dirk put up before he hangs 'em up?

DallasTrilla23
11-26-2013, 12:14 AM
I think he can definitely pass Shaquille maybe wilt but I wouldn't put money on it

FlashBolt
11-26-2013, 12:14 AM
This is if you don't include ABA. I think he can pass Shaq but not Wilt.

Bruno
11-26-2013, 12:15 AM
I think he can definitely pass Shaquille maybe wilt but I wouldn't put money on it
I'm thinking he can pass shaq too. finish at 6th all time.

TrueFan420
11-26-2013, 12:39 AM
Its possible the question for me will be if he is willing to hang around and be a bench option as he ages or if he wants to go out as a first option. I mean he could easily turn into a Ray Allen of pf's.

b@llhog24
11-26-2013, 01:05 AM
Where ever Moses is. In that general area.

ThaDubs
11-26-2013, 01:09 AM
1st

jaydubb
11-26-2013, 02:10 AM
1st

Yea definitely

bagwell368
11-26-2013, 12:53 PM
Wherever he ends up, it will be above where he ranks as a total player, since clearly he's lesser than KG or TD, not to mention others.

AnthonyTyrael2
11-26-2013, 01:32 PM
Wherever he ends up, it will be above where he ranks as a total player, since clearly he's lesser than KG or TD, not to mention others.

Right but his stats aren't that bad either and those two guys, besides the others you didn't mention, that's no bad company huh? Still he beat both of them multiple times in the playoffs, while TD always had the better team and in the games against KG, he was equally good. I know it's always going down to his D... then we could argue, therefor he's better on O as we could argue about TD postion too on and off all the time...we had that talk a zillion times before. We'll better leave it there. In playoff games against (and not only in those) Irk put up monster numbers against those two, often enough better numbers than theirs but yes, in history, there are quiet a few other PF's above him. Still seeing where he's comming from, he sometimes set the tone too, has and had other qualities, almost unmatchable, anbd it's okay to say that he has had a career so far way over anybodies expectations. He was no wonderkid like Garnett, never went through the U.S. system of basketball and he needed no hurricane (no offense against its victims and the general destruction and poverty that it brought) which would destroy this pool to find out it's better playing hoops instead feeding sharks.

ricky recon
11-26-2013, 01:45 PM
Wherever he ends up, it will be above where he ranks as a total player, since clearly he's lesser than KG or TD, not to mention others.

He's clearly "lesser" than KG?

If anything is clear, it is that he is clearly in that discussion. He has an MVP just like KG does, he has a finals MVP, which KG does not have. He's led the league 3 times in WS/48, led the league in PER, and is still a very elite player. He is still going strong and sports a 22.6 PER on a team that could make a run, and is clearly the best player on that team at 35. His defense has really improved, as well as his post game, and overall game.

To say he's clearly lesser is ridiculous, especially considering he's still got time to up his resume whilst KG is on his last wheels and sporting a -WS/48.

ll_eric_ll
11-26-2013, 02:01 PM
IDK if he should be ranked higher than KG when its all said and done,.. All I can say is people will have an opinion one way or another, But Women Lie, Men Lie, Numbers dont lie..

Tony_Starks
11-26-2013, 02:02 PM
I'm trying to think when is the last time I saw one player pass another one on the all time list while they're both still playing. Damn KG fell off.....

Knick_Fever
11-26-2013, 02:07 PM
Not sure but he's definitely one of the all time greats. Credited for single-handedly shutting the Miami in-Heat down in 2011.

gatkins11
11-26-2013, 02:12 PM
He's clearly "lesser" than KG?

If anything is clear, it is that he is clearly in that discussion. He has an MVP just like KG does, he has a finals MVP, which KG does not have. He's led the league 3 times in WS/48, led the league in PER, and is still a very elite player. He is still going strong and sports a 22.6 PER on a team that could make a run, and is clearly the best player on that team at 35. His defense has really improved, as well as his post game, and overall game.

To say he's clearly lesser is ridiculous, especially considering he's still got time to up his resume whilst KG is on his last wheels and sporting a -WS/48.

Don't try and fool these people with logic and reasoning.

AnthonyTyrael2
11-26-2013, 02:17 PM
Bagwell is smart and he's right about his ranking. To me personally it isn't clearly but it's okay. Personal opinions/views are granted.

Dirk is less careerwise (mainly due to NBA regular season), but not clearly and KG's supporting cast wasn't always as bad is it's made now.

We all have had these discussions before, for almost every position and this thread isn't about it but I'm with you ricky recon. I'm just mad because he still dosen't get WIDELY the respect that he deserves, outside the league.

KG, TD and Dirk are responsible for the evolution of how we look at PF's today. In the past you had guys like Horace grant, Anthony Mason, karl and Moses Malone, Barkley and so on. Barkley was a freak too but differently than those three we're still witnessing nowadays. Which one is actually a PF and which one isn't... tell yourself. They all can shoot excellent for their seize, Timmy and KG are great rebounders and defenders, KG being the superior. Dirk's offense is above theirs most of their careers but they could get at you offensively anytime too if they wanted. To me, the only typical PF outta those three is KG because it's his natural position. It's neither Dirk's nor is it TD's. Dirk is rather a SF and Timmy a Center, no matter who's labeled what and playing what on court or whatever minutes stats might tell ya. Timmy was a typical PF/hybrid as he played alongside the Admiral, Dirk is playing way to far away to the rim.

Compared to those 80's and 90's guys, even the worse one's they're very slimmed down and their game and how they approach it looks really different. They all lack the power in PF, actually. KG once had it but always looked like he would need more nutrition. Kinda like a match in the wind, blown out quickly.

However, who of all those guys in any all time leaders list, ask yourself, did underachieve, did overachieve or just stands right and who doesn't? It's all about this.

Dirk is rare. Now even more.

There could be other names above, sure, injuries are sad but you don't see it reflect on all time lists either and it clealry doesn't bring your name up the rankings if you had to fight them all the time.

ricky recon
11-26-2013, 04:59 PM
*All time rank

In 131 playoff games, Kevin Garnett has 15.8 WS(31*), .150 WS/48(54*), and a 21.3 PER(28*). Obviously, very respectable numbers.

In 128 playoff games, Dirk Nowitzki has 22.5 WS(15*), .205 WS/48(5*), and a 24.7 PER(9*). Respectable numbers as well, but obviously much, much better numbers especially when you consider he has a Finals MVP to that resume.

I am not the one to say advanced metrics are the means to all end, by any means, but that is a very considerable difference and by those numbers alone saying KG was clearly better seems rather ridiculous considering Dirk was a guy who was voted MVP in the regular season as well.

I don't want to turn this into a Dirk/KG debate, as it's not the discussion displayed by the OP, and it is unfair since they are both still playing, but I just want to nip in the bud the whole "KG is clearly better". Was he a more rounded player? Sure. Does that mean he was a better player? Hell no.

For where Dirk will end up on the all time scoring list? It is definitely possible he passes Shaq.

mightybosstone
11-26-2013, 09:20 PM
It depends solely on how healthy he can stay, how long he wants to play and how competitive Cuban can keep the Mavs. If Cuban can't make them better than this current team, than they won't compete for the playoffs and Dirk will inevitably lose his motivation to play. But injuries and longevity are also a major concern as he's only going to decline despite his slight improvement so far this season.

If he can average around 20 points per game and play 60 games a season, that's 1,200 points a season. If he can accomplish that, he could feasibly pass Shaq two seasons from now. That seems like a reasonable estimate given that he's played 60+ games in every single season since his rookie year aside from last season.

But if I'm trying to guess his exact landing spot, I'll be a little more precise. So I'll make a few assumptions:
12-13: 20 points x 75 games = 1,500 points
13-14: 20 points x 70 games = 1,400 points
14-15: 15 points x 70 games = 1,050 points
15-16: 15 points x 60 games = 900 points
16-17: 12 points x 50 games = 600 points

This is a fairly conservative estimate. Subtract the 310 points he's scored this season and you're looking at
another 5,140 points, which would give him 30,501 and put him at 6th place. That's about 500 over Dr. J, but still another 1,000 points away from Wilt and nearly 2,000 away from MJ (who will likely be 4th on the list after Kobe passes him).

I think the likely spot for Dirk will be 6th, but I wouldn't be surprised if he climbed into 5th or possibly 4th if he sticks around long enough and stays relatively healthy.

AnthonyTyrael2
12-03-2013, 01:34 AM
Wherever he ends up, LeBron and KD are in for the hunt and both will easily surpass him. I don't know if he can crack the 30,00 points plateau. I'm doubting it a little.

Talking his motivation is a good point. He's achieved a lot. He has family. Team kinda sucks year in and year out. Right now he's motivated to proof he's still up but oh well, he only shows lack of leadership and that he can't step up too often anymore. He's playing good but that's about it. Fortune will return, don't worry but still...he's more and more a shadow of his past himself and that's just natural at this age/stage of career. He'll still have plenty of good and some great games within himself, mainly if we can reach the playoffs. Right now it's about getting there and stying focused, doing your work day in and day out, just like everybody else.

Ebbs
12-03-2013, 01:23 PM
Wherever he ends up, it will be above where he ranks as a total player, since clearly he's lesser than KG or TD, not to mention others.

Not true.

Duncan yes. Kevin Garnett gets far to much credit. It's a quality debate between Dirk and him all time. I hate when KG fans dismiss him.

Dirk has an MVP
Dirk consistently led underwhelming teams to the playoffs.
Dirk was easily the better playoff performer
Dirk has one of the most memorable underdog championship runs period.
Dirk's ability to score at any time from anywhere and close out games is unmatched by any big man period.

I'm not being a homer and saying he's top 10 or some ****. But he has had a better career than KG.

JasonJohnHorn
12-03-2013, 02:46 PM
I think he will finish in the top 17 for sure! Top 14 if you don't include ABA. At the very least, I'm sure he can do these things. That is, until somebody else comes along and scores more than him.

Sactown
12-03-2013, 02:51 PM
Not true.

Duncan yes. Kevin Garnett gets far to much credit. It's a quality debate between Dirk and him all time. I hate when KG fans dismiss him.

Dirk has an MVP
Dirk consistently led underwhelming teams to the playoffs.
Dirk was easily the better playoff performer
Dirk has one of the most memorable underdog championship runs period.
Dirk's ability to score at any time from anywhere and close out games is unmatched by any big man period.

I'm not being a homer and saying he's top 10 or some ****. But he has had a better career than KG.
Dirks has had better career success, but I don't think he's the better player of the two. Winning a championship is as much about timing as it is talent. Even though KGs playoff numbers are underwhelming his peak came at a poor time. He had the early 2000 Kings, the three peat Lakers, and the prime Spurs to go up against in the west , no offense, but during Dirks championship run, I doubt they would of beat any of those 3 teams in a series... Especially considering KGs supporting cast compared to Shaqs, C-Webs and Duncan's..

P&GRealist
12-03-2013, 09:52 PM
Not true.

Duncan yes. Kevin Garnett gets far to much credit. It's a quality debate between Dirk and him all time. I hate when KG fans dismiss him.

Dirk has an MVP
Dirk consistently led underwhelming teams to the playoffs.
Dirk was easily the better playoff performer
Dirk has one of the most memorable underdog championship runs period.
Dirk's ability to score at any time from anywhere and close out games is unmatched by any big man period.

I'm not being a homer and saying he's top 10 or some ****. But he has had a better career than KG.
Dirk also choked away a 2-0 lead in the finals, and the following season fell flat on his face as the league MVP leading his #1 seed team in a 1st rd loss to the #8 seed Warriors. But yes, besides those 2 blunders, Dirk has been awesome and probably a better career than Garnett overall.

ricky recon
12-03-2013, 10:25 PM
Dirks has had better career success, but I don't think he's the better player of the two. Winning a championship is as much about timing as it is talent. Even though KGs playoff numbers are underwhelming his peak came at a poor time. He had the early 2000 Kings, the three peat Lakers, and the prime Spurs to go up against in the west , no offense, but during Dirks championship run, I doubt they would of beat any of those 3 teams in a series... Especially considering KGs supporting cast compared to Shaqs, C-Webs and Duncan's..

They beat the two time defending champions in the conference semi-finals, which every ESPN expert picked them to lose.

http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2011/matchup/_/teams/mavericks-lakers

Then they beat the LeBron/Wade's Heat in the Finals. The Heat won the next two Finals after that. So in the five year period from 2009-2013, the Heat and Lakers won four of those championships. The Mavericks beat both of them to win that championship.

C-Webb Kings? Are you ****ing kidding me? How many championships did they win? How about the LeBron Heat, Kobe Lakers, and Durant Thunder?

And the Dirk led Mavs beat the Spurs in the 06 WCF btw.

Ebbs
12-03-2013, 10:39 PM
Dirks has had better career success, but I don't think he's the better player of the two. Winning a championship is as much about timing as it is talent. Even though KGs playoff numbers are underwhelming his peak came at a poor time. He had the early 2000 Kings, the three peat Lakers, and the prime Spurs to go up against in the west , no offense, but during Dirks championship run, I doubt they would of beat any of those 3 teams in a series... Especially considering KGs supporting cast compared to Shaqs, C-Webs and Duncan's..

Timing? The Mavs were the underdogs in every series. Beat Aldridge Blazers. Completely dismantled a Lakers team attempting a 3 peat. Overcame west conference sweet hearts in Durant, Westbrook, and Harden. Where they faced the Big 3 and won.


Dirk also choked away a 2-0 lead in the finals, and the following season fell flat on his face as the league MVP leading his #1 seed team in a 1st rd loss to the #8 seed Warriors. But yes, besides those 2 blunders, Dirk has been awesome and probably a better career than Garnett overall.

Choked away, no? Wade was just clearly the best player in that series. Also Dirk, Terry, Howard, Harris, Stackhouse, and Dampier had no business beating Wade, Shaq, Payton, J-Williams, Walker, Mourning, E. Jones, that team had two legitimate stars and a team of hungry ring hunting veterans with more than enough left in the tank.

The 06-07 *** whooping the Mavs received from the Warriors was tough to take. It unfairly fell on Dirk as a choke job but let's be real the Warriors beat the Mavs all 4 times that year in the regular season. It was their nightmare matchup. Couldn't handle all the athleticism and speed on that squad.

Glad you came to the same conclusion though.

gatkins11
12-03-2013, 10:50 PM
Dirk also choked away a 2-0 lead in the finals, and the following season fell flat on his face as the league MVP leading his #1 seed team in a 1st rd loss to the #8 seed Warriors. But yes, besides those 2 blunders, Dirk has been awesome and probably a better career than Garnett overall.

Pretty easy to "choke" when the other team's best player is sent to the free throw line whenever he gets breathed on.

Bruno
12-03-2013, 11:28 PM
It depends solely on how healthy he can stay, how long he wants to play and how competitive Cuban can keep the Mavs. If Cuban can't make them better than this current team, than they won't compete for the playoffs and Dirk will inevitably lose his motivation to play. But injuries and longevity are also a major concern as he's only going to decline despite his slight improvement so far this season.

If he can average around 20 points per game and play 60 games a season, that's 1,200 points a season. If he can accomplish that, he could feasibly pass Shaq two seasons from now. That seems like a reasonable estimate given that he's played 60+ games in every single season since his rookie year aside from last season.

But if I'm trying to guess his exact landing spot, I'll be a little more precise. So I'll make a few assumptions:
12-13: 20 points x 75 games = 1,500 points
13-14: 20 points x 70 games = 1,400 points
14-15: 15 points x 70 games = 1,050 points
15-16: 15 points x 60 games = 900 points
16-17: 12 points x 50 games = 600 points

This is a fairly conservative estimate. Subtract the 310 points he's scored this season and you're looking at
another 5,140 points, which would give him 30,501 and put him at 6th place. That's about 500 over Dr. J, but still another 1,000 points away from Wilt and nearly 2,000 away from MJ (who will likely be 4th on the list after Kobe passes him).

I think the likely spot for Dirk will be 6th, but I wouldn't be surprised if he climbed into 5th or possibly 4th if he sticks around long enough and stays relatively healthy.

thanks for doing that. nice.

Bruno
12-03-2013, 11:30 PM
I think dirk can flirt with fifth or sixth; he can pass shaq. he'll probably remain in the top ten for another 20-25 years as well. LBJ and Durant will pass him up but it might take another generation to produce two players who will eventually surpass Dirk. Maybe another from this generation can get him years down the line, ten years or so- some younger player today, maybe Harden or George if everything goes well for them. thats way early to say though.

Bruno
12-03-2013, 11:40 PM
dirk has the second most points out of any active player in the NBA at 25,422 before tonight.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/pts_active.html

ricky recon
12-03-2013, 11:53 PM
I think Dirk's game speaks for itself. Tonight he shot 1-10 in the first half, and shot 9-11 in the second half and couldn't be stopped. He still plays at an absolute elite level. When he's on, he can't be stopped. From the high post, when he's on, he can't be stopped. Not by Josh McRoberts (tonight), not by Serge Ibaka, not by Kevin Garnett, not by any one.

JasonJohnHorn
12-04-2013, 12:03 AM
I don't think place really matters as much as the key plateaus. As decades pass, more and more guys play longer and get higher.... eventually guys like Kobe and Jordan and K. Malone and LBJ will fill the top 20 rather than the top 10 or top 5 and the milestones will be 25 000 career points, and career combos like Garnett. Seriously, is anybody going to care that Dirk has more points when Garnett is an elite club that has over 25000 career points, 14000 career rebounds, 5000 career assists, 2000 career blocks and 1700 career steals? Those combos will matter more than total points.

AnthonyTyrael2
12-04-2013, 12:40 AM
I don't think place really matters as much as the key plateaus. As decades pass, more and more guys play longer and get higher.... eventually guys like Kobe and Jordan and K. Malone and LBJ will fill the top 20 rather than the top 10 or top 5 and the milestones will be 25 000 career points, and career combos like Garnett. Seriously, is anybody going to care that Dirk has more points when Garnett is an elite club that has over 25000 career points, 14000 career rebounds, 5000 career assists, 2000 career blocks and 1700 career steals? Those combos will matter more than total points.

That's my view on a career resume too. You've got to look at the whole picture, not only the frame and the highlights. They're different players though. They might share an official postion on court and almost have the same height, besides that, there's almost nothing. Two different players, athletes, with different talents, different minded, with different qualties and so on. One bearded, the other shaved, one with long hair, one with a bald head... ;-) ...just kidding at the end.

That's like saying Barkley was like most others on his position. Guy was a smurf for it, just like Zo at C. There are plenty of guys you can't compare but they always get.

Bruno
12-04-2013, 04:11 PM
I don't think place really matters as much as the key plateaus. As decades pass, more and more guys play longer and get higher.... eventually guys like Kobe and Jordan and K. Malone and LBJ will fill the top 20 rather than the top 10 or top 5 and the milestones will be 25 000 career points, and career combos like Garnett. Seriously, is anybody going to care that Dirk has more points when Garnett is an elite club that has over 25000 career points, 14000 career rebounds, 5000 career assists, 2000 career blocks and 1700 career steals? Those combos will matter more than total points.
i don't think anyone will knock Malone, MJ or Kobe out into the top 20. that would take like 200 years, haha.