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blahblahyoutoo
11-24-2013, 02:01 PM
Dantoni received a lot of negative flack for being a poor head coach and was driven out of NY by media, fans, players, what have you.
woodson took over and was hailed as COY candidate by many knicks fans last year.

FF one season later and Dantoni has taken a lottery team whose best player at the moment is an over-the-hill gasol, to a respectable record sans Kobe.
having watched games from both teams, it appears that dantoni has stuck to his guns in regards to his philosophy of ball movement and fast paced offense. the team looks like a cohesive unit on both ends of the court.

meanwhile, woodson's knicks are at the bottom of the division with a in-his-prime Melo. the knicks look like a bunch of chickens running around with their heads chopped off. that plus iso melo of course.

LA plays in a tougher conference and has had the harder schedule so far, but is doing far better than NY.
so is it fair to say that the negative criticism that dantoni received was unfair? that the knicks failures while he was HC was not due to his coaching abilities?

shep33
11-24-2013, 02:20 PM
The problem with D'antoni is that he requires specific players to run his system, anything outside that is pure disaster.

Live and die by the 3 is his motto.

NYKnickFanatic
11-24-2013, 02:38 PM
2k10

Tysons_Beard
11-24-2013, 02:44 PM
its dolans fault

P&GRealist
11-24-2013, 02:46 PM
The problem with D'antoni is that he requires specific players to run his system, anything outside that is pure disaster.

Live and die by the 3 is his motto.

Not really live and die by the 3 as much it is just moving the ball for an open cut to the basket or a 3 pt shot. You won't see him preach to chuck up a well defended 3 just for the sake of hoisting up a 3. I used to be a big critic of his, and I see that there is some sort of meaning to his system.

The team has shown signs of wanting to play defense so that's a big improvement from the D'Antoni PHX teams as they wouldn't play a lick of D and couldn't care less about showing heart on that end of the floor.

TheNumber37
11-24-2013, 03:03 PM
It's just drive and kick.
A 1 and 5.. or 4. Pick and Roll and spread with shooters

Neither Felton nor Chandler is playing to run that play so its not happening.

You'd think Woodson would run Pick and Roll with Melo and Bargz more, but he doesn't. At least to get the mismatch and create open shots for Bargz and the surrounding shooters.

king4day
11-24-2013, 03:05 PM
Woodson was rightfully hailed as a coach of the year candidate last season. And it wasn't just Knicks fans who felt that way.

D'Antoni needs specific types of players to run his system. In NY, it worked when he had Galinari and Wilson Chandler. Felton was doing a good job as a distributor with Amar'e as the center of the team.
It's should come as no surprise when you take all the assets that made that Knicks team good away and suddenly the system no longer works.

He goes to LAL and management basically said, "here are the keys....GO". The pieces didn't fit. Guys like Kobe and Howard prefer to be ISO players. Nash's had healthy issues. It was just a really bad situation he came into. Eventually they overcame it a bit and got the playoffs when nobody expected them too at midseason.

NOW, D'Antoni has some players that better fit what he needs. He's got his shooters and scrappy guys like Hill who are doing the intangibles to get some wins.

Let's see what happens when Kobe returns.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
11-24-2013, 03:09 PM
lmao now people think that D'Antoni is decent :laugh:

lol, please
11-24-2013, 03:18 PM
Dantoni received a lot of negative flack for being a poor head coach and was driven out of NY by media, fans, players, what have you.
woodson took over and was hailed as COY candidate by many knicks fans last year.

FF one season later and Dantoni has taken a lottery team whose best player at the moment is an over-the-hill gasol, to a respectable record sans Kobe.
having watched games from both teams, it appears that dantoni has stuck to his guns in regards to his philosophy of ball movement and fast paced offense. the team looks like a cohesive unit on both ends of the court.

meanwhile, woodson's knicks are at the bottom of the division with a in-his-prime Melo. the knicks look like a bunch of chickens running around with their heads chopped off. that plus iso melo of course.

LA plays in a tougher conference and has had the harder schedule so far, but is doing far better than NY.
so is it fair to say that the negative criticism that dantoni received was unfair? that the knicks failures while he was HC was not due to his coaching abilities?
Stopped reading when you spoke of D'antoni's "accomplishments" this season as if the miniscule sample size provided so far has any weight in any way. :facepalm:

Jenceman
11-24-2013, 03:19 PM
lmao now people think that D'Antoni is decent :laugh:

He's done a decent job this season.

blahblahyoutoo
11-24-2013, 03:24 PM
The problem with D'antoni is that he requires specific players to run his system, anything outside that is pure disaster.

Live and die by the 3 is his motto.
have you seen the 3 pointers the knicks are launching this season?
no different than when they were with dantoni. as long as JR and melo are on the team, they will be chucking 3's.
it's just that early last season, they were hitting them at an unsustainable rate. everyone knew they couldn't keep that up.

blahblahyoutoo
11-24-2013, 03:25 PM
Woodson was rightfully hailed as a coach of the year candidate last season. And it wasn't just Knicks fans who felt that way.

D'Antoni needs specific types of players to run his system. In NY, it worked when he had Galinari and Wilson Chandler. Felton was doing a good job as a distributor with Amar'e as the center of the team.
It's should come as no surprise when you take all the assets that made that Knicks team good away and suddenly the system no longer works.

He goes to LAL and management basically said, "here are the keys....GO". The pieces didn't fit. Guys like Kobe and Howard prefer to be ISO players. Nash's had healthy issues. It was just a really bad situation he came into. Eventually they overcame it a bit and got the playoffs when nobody expected them too at midseason.

NOW, D'Antoni has some players that better fit what he needs. He's got his shooters and scrappy guys like Hill who are doing the intangibles to get some wins.

Let's see what happens when Kobe returns.

so how does one go from COY to 'Fire Woodson' chants in a year's time. either you're a good coach or you're not.

blahblahyoutoo
11-24-2013, 03:26 PM
Stopped reading when you spoke of D'antoni's "accomplishments" this season as if the miniscule sample size provided so far has any weight in any way. :facepalm:

stop reading all you want.
watch the game, not just the standings. the team behaves like a cohesive unit, unlike the knicks where nobody knows their role, no sets/plays, etc.

therealwd27
11-24-2013, 03:30 PM
Woodson is just very limited on offense, he doesnt appear to have any type of offensive scheme. Dantoni sucks on defense..Woodson should've hired Gentry or someone as an assistant to help offense. Woodson has always been ISO ISO ISO since Hawks. He's too stubborn to change

HYFR
11-24-2013, 03:31 PM
Op gets a semi chub talking bout the Knicks. Constantly in the knick forum

jericho
11-24-2013, 03:43 PM
I hate Dantoni but one thing he never had on the Knicks was that he never had a roster build around his coaching philosophy. I still think that he sucks but this Lakers squad has the rite players for his system to be succesful. Now im actually worried of what will happen when Kobe gets back to the team.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
11-24-2013, 03:44 PM
He's done a decent job this season.

dont let these 12 games fool you bruh :sigh:

J4KOP99
11-24-2013, 03:49 PM
Giant douche vs turd sandwich

jimm120
11-24-2013, 03:51 PM
Dantoni sucks.

He'll get a bad team to be below average (not bad). But he can't get a good team to be good or great. He can't get a great team to be championship material.

Woodson went 18-6 with the same team Dantoni had.
Woodson started 18-6 last year and finished with 54 wins.


Dantoni sucks. He'll get a 20 win team to win 28-35 wins...but he can't get a 42 win team to be a 45+ win team.

Jenceman
11-24-2013, 03:52 PM
dont let these 12 games fool you bruh :sigh:

Hahah believe me man I'm one of the biggest "SSS!" guys around here, particularly in the Lakers forum, but it is clear that he has gotten the team to play cohesively. He warrants a lot of criticism, but with a win today he has the Lakers at .500 against a considerably tough schedule and no Kobe/Nash.

Small sample size for sure, but he's turned Blake into a decent point guard!

Of course I still prefer a guy like Sloan, SVG, or PJ, but I do give credit where it's due.

shep33
11-24-2013, 04:03 PM
have you seen the 3 pointers the knicks are launching this season?
no different than when they were with dantoni. as long as JR and melo are on the team, they will be chucking 3's.
it's just that early last season, they were hitting them at an unsustainable rate. everyone knew they couldn't keep that up.

Yeah but MDA also doesn't coach defense. Woodson on that end is far superior and it isn't close

KnicksorBust
11-24-2013, 04:29 PM
In fairness to Woodson, he's coaching a roster without a PG or any defensive bigmen. If we had this record with a healthy Tyson Chandler that'd be a different story.

blahblahyoutoo
11-24-2013, 04:34 PM
Op gets a semi chub talking bout the Knicks. Constantly in the knick forum

semi chub? it's full on mang.

blahblahyoutoo
11-24-2013, 04:35 PM
Dantoni sucks.

He'll get a bad team to be below average (not bad). But he can't get a good team to be good or great. He can't get a great team to be championship material.

Woodson went 18-6 with the same team Dantoni had.
Woodson started 18-6 last year and finished with 54 wins.


Dantoni sucks. He'll get a 20 win team to win 28-35 wins...but he can't get a 42 win team to be a 45+ win team.

explain the 3-9 this year from last years COY candidate then.
the core players are the same. felton, melo, chandler, shumper.

and last year's 18-6 start was all due to them hitting 3's at an unsustainable clip. not because of coaching.

blahblahyoutoo
11-24-2013, 04:41 PM
Yeah but MDA also doesn't coach defense. Woodson on that end is far superior and it isn't close

could've fooled me.
defensive schemes seem pretty non-existent to me. players always seems lost and don't know whether to go over/under screens.

blahblahyoutoo
11-24-2013, 04:41 PM
In fairness to Woodson, he's coaching a roster without a PG or any defensive bigmen. If we had this record with a healthy Tyson Chandler that'd be a different story.

what was the record before he went down?

KnicksorBust
11-24-2013, 05:11 PM
what was the record before he went down?

1-2. :laugh: Both losses to teams that are currently over .500 (Bulls/Wolves). Are you really going to get on him for that?

barreleffact
11-24-2013, 05:30 PM
1-2. :laugh: Both losses to teams that are currently over .500 (Bulls/Wolves). Are you really going to get on him for that?

Plus, the first 5 games were without their second best offensive player JR (even if he has played VERY sub par thus far)

-Kobe24-TJ19-
11-24-2013, 05:37 PM
Plus, the first 5 games were without their second best offensive player JR (even if he has played VERY sub par thus far)

lol the knicks are better without that bum

JEDean89
11-24-2013, 05:41 PM
The Knicks are basically in the biggest debacle of all time. Either they let Melo walk, and are forced to rebuild with no draft picks or they have to pay him 26 mil a year to when he's 35, and try and build a contender around him in this CBA era, which is gonna basically be impossible without spending Brooklyn Nets kind of money.

Pat Riley is basically laughing his *** off. Not only did he pull off the greatest FA of all time, but he got to watch as all the other teams that tried to do the same fell apart in shambles. The Knicks tried to get a big 3, they are awful, the Lakers, tried to have a big 4, we all know how that worked out. Brooklyn is gonna be paying every team below the luxury like 4 million dollars this year and they don't even have their own draft pick. In fact, the Knicks don't have any 2nd round picks coming up and they have this and a 2016 pick traded. It's ridiculous.

The only real answer is to trade Melo to a team, like the Rockets, get Jeremy Lin and Terrence Jones, who should both be Knicks anyway if they had good management, and maybe try and get a 3rd team involved for an addional 1st rounder. Way less than they paid. Then trade Chandler, Bargs, Smith, everyone but Shumps imo, then tank for the 2015 draft and get a stud, then sign a Kevin Love, or a big name or two, extend shumps and lin and you can have a respectable team in the next two years. The Knicks are chasing a pipedream that just isn't working out and we are trying desperately to get better and are just shooting ourselves in the foot. This is almost as bad as the Thomas era.

Woody is not at fault here, Melo is not at fault here. Grunwald and Walsh had to cater to Dolan's every moodswing and in the end were forced to work against their own interest. It really saddens me that we got a guy like Melo finally but gave up our whole future. The idea that we are gonna build a championship team around him to me sounds crazy.

D-Leethal
11-25-2013, 01:55 AM
One of the most unspoken things in basketball is that D'Antoni was coaching a top 5 NBA defense that turned into bottom half once Woody took over.

Tony_Starks
11-25-2013, 02:15 AM
First off when were Lakers a lotto team? But anyways as others have stated they let D'Antoni hand pick guys he knew would play his style this summer. Plus they brought in Kurt Rhambis who is for all intents and purposes the defensive coordinator. I'll admit they are playing good ball but its not a style of play that will get you much more than making a little noise in the playoffs.

Woody has little to nothing to work with outside of Melo. Felton's garbage, Shumps overrated, Amares finished,JR is Jr, and nobody else is even worth mentioning.

shep33
11-25-2013, 02:22 AM
could've fooled me.
defensive schemes seem pretty non-existent to me. players always seems lost and don't know whether to go over/under screens.

Not a coincidence that teams he coached are typically bottom dwellers on the defensive end. We had to bring in Rambis to sure up that end this year, because we were god awful last year

JNA17
11-25-2013, 02:28 AM
Pros and Cons of Dantoni:

+ Get's the best use out of old or journeyman talent.
+ Great coach when it comes down to the final seconds in the 4th quarter in a close game.
+ Fun to watch when it works on offense.
+ Many players love him. (well except for Melo and Dwight.)

- pays little attention to defense (although it is better this year mostly due to the talent on the defensive end.)
- Requires a specific type of players in his kind of offensive system.
- Does a lot of questionable rotations at times.
- Loves the stretch 4 a little "too much".
- Lack of control of the game when the game gets out of hand. (Doesn't call timeouts, doesn't making enough substitutions, etc.)

Woodson Pros and Cons

+ Above average on defense.
+ Players respect him.
+ Uses his star player to the best of his ability.
+ Solid rotations most of the time.

- Very limited offensive mind. Example being during his tenure with the Hawks and Knicks. Lots of ISO offense with Joe Johnson and now ISO offense with guys like Melo and J.R. Smith.
- Has trouble meshing with the roster correctly at times.
- Almost if not every year, his teams are usually VERY mediocre free throw shooting teams...have no idea why.

I haven't seen the Knicks too much lately too really give a proper personal evaluation but this is pretty much my thoughts on it. XD

JNA17
11-25-2013, 02:32 AM
Dantoni sucks.

He'll get a bad team to be below average (not bad). But he can't get a good team to be good or great. He can't get a great team to be championship material.

Woodson went 18-6 with the same team Dantoni had.
Woodson started 18-6 last year and finished with 54 wins.


Dantoni sucks. He'll get a 20 win team to win 28-35 wins...but he can't get a 42 win team to be a 45+ win team.

The Phoenix Suns would like a word with you.

NYKNYGNYY
11-25-2013, 02:44 AM
Exactly what shep said in the second post

xxplayerxx23
11-25-2013, 08:50 AM
The Phoenix Suns would like a word with you.

That team was pretty stacked but I agree.

xxplayerxx23
11-25-2013, 08:54 AM
Knicks are 1-2 with Tyson, one was a lucky shot and the other was a beat down by the wolves where the Knicks had a chance to win it at the end. Yeah I think I'll continue to save judgment for when Tyson comes back. It could get ugly here out west, 1-2 is probably the best for this week

jimm120
11-25-2013, 09:20 AM
The Phoenix Suns would like a word with you.


Sorry, but that's when the whole "small ball" and "7seconds or less" started. It took everyone by surprise, hence they won a lot. Mince then, people have taken those ideas and refunded them

nycericanguy
11-25-2013, 10:36 AM
have you seen the 3 pointers the knicks are launching this season?
no different than when they were with dantoni. as long as JR and melo are on the team, they will be chucking 3's.
it's just that early last season, they were hitting them at an unsustainable rate. everyone knew they couldn't keep that up.

Maybe, yea they started hot last year, but even with the 3-9 start this year they are still something like 75-40 under Woodson which is pretty damn impressive with all the injuries they've had during that time. You make it sound like Woodson was just lucky... a 115 game sample size is not luck.

D'antoni was 18-24 with the team Woodson took over.

He does need very specific players, he had Howard, Nash, Gasol, MWP & Kobe last year and could barely stay above .500. Being .500 14 games into this year isn't exactly setting the world on fire. People make too much out of the beginning of the year.

CHA started 7-5 last year, Pacers 3-6... Knicks 6-0...etc... The NBA is ups and downs, Knicks just happen to be going through a down period and missing Tyson, JR & Felton has hurt. Those were their #2, #3 & #4 best players last year. It's not like NY didn't go through rough patches last year, they lost 6 of 7 at one point and 5 of 6 during another point. They'll be fine.

nycericanguy
11-25-2013, 10:40 AM
And Woodson was absolutely a COA candidate last year, I don't know why you say "Knicks fans say he was"... Sounds like you're trying to troll, he was widely regarded as a COA candidate by everyone.

blahblahyoutoo
11-25-2013, 11:14 AM
And Woodson was absolutely a COA candidate last year, I don't know why you say "Knicks fans say he was"... Sounds like you're trying to troll, he was widely regarded as a COA candidate by everyone.

again, how does he go from COY one year and fans asking for his head the next?
clearly he's not that good of a coach. he was under consideration based solely on their record (which was due to hot 3 shooting) and not because of coaching ability. jkidd was running the floor and we all see what's happened since he left.

blahblahyoutoo
11-25-2013, 11:20 AM
Maybe, yea they started hot last year, but even with the 3-9 start this year they are still something like 75-40 under Woodson which is pretty damn impressive with all the injuries they've had during that time. You make it sound like Woodson was just lucky... a 115 game sample size is not luck.

D'antoni was 18-24 with the team Woodson took over.

He does need very specific players, he had Howard, Nash, Gasol, MWP & Kobe last year and could barely stay above .500. Being .500 14 games into this year isn't exactly setting the world on fire. People make too much out of the beginning of the year.

CHA started 7-5 last year, Pacers 3-6... Knicks 6-0...etc... The NBA is ups and downs, Knicks just happen to be going through a down period and missing Tyson, JR & Felton has hurt. Those were their #2, #3 & #4 best players last year. It's not like NY didn't go through rough patches last year, they lost 6 of 7 at one point and 5 of 6 during another point. They'll be fine.

you want to talk about injuries? LA lost kobe and is playing a bunch of nobodies, and is .500 in the tougher conference and harder SOS at the moment.

lose melo for a few months and lets see if the knicks can even muster 1 win.

nycericanguy
11-25-2013, 11:23 AM
again, how does he go from COY one year and fans asking for his head the next?
clearly he's not that good of a coach. he was under consideration based solely on their record (which was due to hot 3 shooting) and not because of coaching ability. jkidd was running the floor and we all see what's happened since he left.

That's the way the NBA works... wasn't George Karl COA and then fired? Happens all the time... this is a RESULT oriented league if you haven't noticed.

That being said, I don't think Woodson is going anywhere unless this continues, and I can't see NY playing this poorly much longer.

nycericanguy
11-25-2013, 11:25 AM
you want to talk about injuries? LA lost kobe and is playing a bunch of nobodies, and is .500 in the tougher conference and harder SOS at the moment.

lose melo for a few months and lets see if the knicks can even muster 1 win.

It's been 14 games dude... talk about over reacting to small sample sizes.

And FWIW Knicks were .500 last year without Melo.

blahblahyoutoo
11-25-2013, 11:31 AM
It's been 14 games dude... talk about over reacting to small sample sizes.

And FWIW Knicks were .500 last year without Melo.

have you watched any laker games. ignore records for the time being and see which team is playing like a unit.

nycericanguy
11-25-2013, 12:09 PM
have you watched any laker games. ignore records for the time being and see which team is playing like a unit.

i'm really not sure what you're even trying to argue anymore.

D'antoni can get the most out of SOME players... Ask Felton, Lin & Duhon... but he doesn't really adjust to his personnel well. He's not a bad coach, just a specific coach. He's doing ok because he has guys that don't have ego's right now and buy into his system. But when he had Howard, Kobe, Nash...MWP, Gasol... he definitely didn't maximize that team, and he definitely didn't maximize Melo, Amare Lin, Chandler in NY the way Woodson has.

Woodson isn't a great coach but he's done a very good job in NY, 75-43 is his record... Are the Knicks struggling through 12 games? Absolutely! Does that negate the 72-34 record he had before with NY? Of course not.

29$JerZ
11-25-2013, 12:17 PM
Well Woodson pretty much stole D'Antoni's playbook but demanded more Iso and Elbow plays than D'Antoni likes.

Both aren't that good imo. Don't see the point of this other than the OP's apparent obsession with Knick topics

todu82
11-25-2013, 01:32 PM
D'antoni

blahblahyoutoo
11-25-2013, 02:56 PM
i'm really not sure what you're even trying to argue anymore.

D'antoni can get the most out of SOME players... Ask Felton, Lin & Duhon... but he doesn't really adjust to his personnel well. He's not a bad coach, just a specific coach. He's doing ok because he has guys that don't have ego's right now and buy into his system. But when he had Howard, Kobe, Nash...MWP, Gasol... he definitely didn't maximize that team, and he definitely didn't maximize Melo, Amare Lin, Chandler in NY the way Woodson has.

Woodson isn't a great coach but he's done a very good job in NY, 75-43 is his record... Are the Knicks struggling through 12 games? Absolutely! Does that negate the 72-34 record he had before with NY? Of course not.

you're right. all the "fire woodson" chants and the same sentiments echoed in the knicks forum tells me he's doing a great job.
my bad homes. keep up the good work woodson.

nycericanguy
11-25-2013, 03:03 PM
you're right. all the "fire woodson" chants and the same sentiments echoed in the knicks forum tells me he's doing a great job.
my bad homes. keep up the good work woodson.

again, not even sure what you're trying to get at. That Woodson;s Knicks have struggled for 12 games? If so, thanks Captain Obvious... but no LOGICAL person would judge a guy off a 12 game sample missing key players vs the 72-34 record he had before.

blahblahyoutoo
11-25-2013, 03:09 PM
again, not even sure what you're trying to get at. That Woodson;s Knicks have struggled for 12 games? If so, thanks Captain Obvious... but no LOGICAL person would judge a guy off a 12 game sample missing key players vs the 72-34 record he had before.

nope, the judging came from his inability to unify the team, to put together a working offensive scheme, set rotations... am i missing anything else?

nycericanguy
11-25-2013, 03:16 PM
nope, the judging came from his ability to unify the team, to put together a working offensive scheme, set rotations... am i missing anything else?

So you don't think Woodson has done a good job in NY overall? Just because of the last 12 games?

And you think D'antoni HAS done a good job in LA? Based on the past 14 games?

To each their own, but that doesn't make any sense at all.

KnickaBocka.44
11-25-2013, 03:32 PM
nope, the judging came from his ability to unify the team, to put together a working offensive scheme, set rotations... am i missing anything else?

His point is that these judgements that you're making are coming form an extremely small sample size compared to the success he has seen as the coach of the Knicks since taking over.

He hasn't had these issues since taking over as the coach, and actually did a great job unifying the team down the stretch in the year he took over for 'Antoni. But I can guarantee you that the coaching staff is trying to address these things.

People forget that the Knicks great start last season came after a big opening night win against the Heat. That brought the team together more than anything and gave them a sense of belief. With a game coming up against the Nets on 12/5, I see that as a great opportunity for this team to get some confidence and unity, similar to what we saw after that win last season. The Nets are struggling also and if the Knicks can get a win in that game it will show the team that we are still the best team in NY, and in the Atlantic, but we are going to have to prove it after this slow start.

Kashmir13579
11-25-2013, 04:45 PM
When Kobe comes back he can't kill the ball movement. If he does, D'antoni will look just as bad as he did when 'Melo sabotaged him in NY. I've been a supporter of D'antoni for a long time. When the roster was choosing sides back in 2011, i was adamant we should've kept Jeremy, and shipped 'Melo out for players that fit D'antoni's system.

I honestly WANT to believe that Kobe has high enough IQ to realize playing the right way in this system could add years to his career. However, Kobe did give 'Melo some awful advice during the D'antoni/'Melo skirmish.


"I think Melo having the ball in his hands in this town is overrated," said Lakers star Kobe Bryant, a teammate of Anthony's on Team USA. "I mean, I've played with him. The ball is in his hands and then it's gone."

The bulk of Anthony's scoring this season has come off isolation plays, which, at times, made the Knicks' offense stagnant. Players have admitted to being lulled into watching Anthony instead of keeping the offense moving. The fear is that the increased tempo New York has seen with Lin at the point will be slowed by Anthony's need to pound the ball into the post.

Bryant did not accept the idea that Anthony might need to make a big adjustment when he returns to the lineup from a strained right groin injury.

"He's not a player that's going to dribble the ball a whole bunch, so I think that is a little overrated," said Bryant, who also thrives in isolation plays. "They need to get the ball to Melo in the post and in the mid-post because that's where he operates, and its frees him up to do what he does best.

"He's not going to be a facilitator, so people need to stop expecting that from him. That can be Jeremy Lin's job. Melo can put the ball in the basket and let [Lin] do what he does best."
Nice, Kobe... Your infinate wisdom truly helped my franchise. :rolleyes:
Now Kobe's in a similar situation, same coach, same ball movement. Will he take his own awful advice or will he adjust for the betterment of the team?

Kashmir13579
11-25-2013, 04:47 PM
In fairness to Woodson, he's coaching a roster without a PG or any defensive bigmen. If we had this record with a healthy Tyson Chandler that'd be a different story.

We were off the rails before Chandler went down. In all fairness to the situation, its his own fault for playing Felton so much. There are other options.

Sssmush
11-25-2013, 06:40 PM
This in a nutshell is why I'd say the Lakers will never sign Carmelo in free agency and why we really dont want him, even for free.

It's also why Kobe was signed to a 48m extension... Because there is only one true game changer free agent in 2014 (Lebron) and outside of that it's just a bunch if guys who will never be as good as Kobe. And after this weekend u can throw a few more of those must have free agents on the injury scrap heap.

Dantoni vs Woodson is a joke. It's not even a question. Lin vs Felton is a joke too. Carmelo vs Joe Johnson... Ok well that's a close one.

king4day
11-25-2013, 08:41 PM
so how does one go from COY to 'Fire Woodson' chants in a year's time. either you're a good coach or you're not.

Losing your leaders certainly didn't help. Great coaches can't help it if the talent sucks.
Smith missing the first 5 games and Chandler being out for so long is very impactful.
Not having Kidd anymore doesn't help either.

KnicksorBust
11-25-2013, 10:53 PM
In fairness to Woodson, he's coaching a roster without a PG or any defensive bigmen. If we had this record with a healthy Tyson Chandler that'd be a different story.

We were off the rails before Chandler went down. In all fairness to the situation, its his own fault for playing Felton so much. There are other options.

Are you losing it? We were off the rails at 1-2 with a tough loss to chicago on a drose gamewinner?

Pablonovi
11-26-2013, 04:58 PM
Pros and Cons of Dantoni:

+ Get's the best use out of old or journeyman talent.
+ Great coach when it comes down to the final seconds in the 4th quarter in a close game.
+ Fun to watch when it works on offense.
+ Many players love him. (well except for Melo and Dwight.)

- pays little attention to defense (although it is better this year mostly due to the talent on the defensive end.)
- Requires a specific type of players in his kind of offensive system.
- Does a lot of questionable rotations at times.
- Loves the stretch 4 a little "too much".
- Lack of control of the game when the game gets out of hand. (Doesn't call timeouts, doesn't making enough substitutions, etc.)

Woodson Pros and Cons

+ Above average on defense.
+ Players respect him.
+ Uses his star player to the best of his ability.
+ Solid rotations most of the time.

- Very limited offensive mind. Example being during his tenure with the Hawks and Knicks. Lots of ISO offense with Joe Johnson and now ISO offense with guys like Melo and J.R. Smith.
- Has trouble meshing with the roster correctly at times.
- Almost if not every year, his teams are usually VERY mediocre free throw shooting teams...have no idea why.

I haven't seen the Knicks too much lately too really give a proper personal evaluation but this is pretty much my thoughts on it. XD

Hey JNA17,
Thanx for the effort and thought you put into this.

I just watched the Blazers-Knicks last night; and the Knicks were pretty much unwatchable. Melo-iso, Bargs-iso, throw in a little JR-iso. The Blazers played swarming defense particular tight vs Melo; instead of at least attempting to punish them / wear them out by passing and passing, they played right into their hands with all that iso. One extreme, yet typical play. Melo had it for almost the entire 24 seconds, forced up a shot with the defender blanketing him.

I know they've got some guys out; but this looks beyond fixable.

Pablonovi
11-26-2013, 05:30 PM
This in a nutshell is why I'd say the Lakers will never sign Carmelo in free agency and why we really dont want him, even for free.

It's also why Kobe was signed to a 48m extension... Because there is only one true game changer free agent in 2014 (Lebron) and outside of that it's just a bunch if guys who will never be as good as Kobe. And after this weekend u can throw a few more of those must have free agents on the injury scrap heap.

Dantoni vs Woodson is a joke. It's not even a question. Lin vs Felton is a joke too. Carmelo vs Joe Johnson... Ok well that's a close one.

Hey Sssmush,
Of all the better players in the League, adding Carmelo to the Lakers would be just about the worst decision for the Lakers. You can't have two All-Stars who are both heavily-ball-usage guys and have a well-functioning offense.

About Kobe's extension. Having been a Lakers fan for 56 years, I've got a strong bias towards putting the most positive spin on what the F.O. does and what's up with the players; i.e., I tend to give them the benefit of the doubt. So, from all sides I see that people are saying the Kobe re-sign is crazy (too much for him; and not leaving enough to sign more than one other big F.A.s). So I've asked myself WHY did they do it? My thoughts:

1) Kobe: They've talked with Kobe and belief he is going to finish this season close to how he was last season. Assume that, then they want him max-happy. I wouldn't be surprised if he does return to such great form - supposedly the doctors fixed it so that he basically can't re-injure it; he always works as hard as anybody so all this time off may well have brought him to maximize every aspect he could train hard; his very first practices were not run at the planned 50%-80%, but because of him were run at 100%; and even then he very much impressed his teammates. Most importantly, Kobe KNOWS what's at stake for: his career, his post-career legend/ranking, and "his" team.

2. The team (small sample size and all) has been better than anybody expected (afterall they had the Lakers at 12th in the Conference for the full season with Kobe joining the team at some point). Three things impress me the most, vis--vis Kobe's return: a) the TEAM-work itself (ball-movement, unselfishness ...); b) the energy; and c) the consistent effort and results on defense. Plus Kobe into this mix - imo, they make the play-offs; and with a Super Star of his quality PLUS the right complimentary pieces (and the right "breaks") great things sometimes happen in the playoffs (witness Hakeem's Rockets winning the Chip from the #5/6 seed; witness Dirk's chip).

Lastly, about the two coaches. I am not entitled to an opinion about Woodson because I did not see many Knicks games last year; and only this very last one this year. On the other hand, imo, D'antoini did more for Nash-Amare than they did for him back in Phoenix. Regardless of it being a new thing, for a series of years that was a very good team.

Last year's Lakers experience is incredibly difficult to judge for all the myriad known reasons that don't need me to repeat them. This year's team only has 14 games (and without their best and one of their two second-best players). Still, the remainder of the team was evaluated (pretty universally) as being a bunch of scrubs (of course, only compared to NBA-level average talent). I'll assume that Rambis gets more credit for the defense than Mike; but Rambis IS working for Mike, so he gets some credit at least. And on offense? Mike, didn't take long to sort thru his available personnel and multiple-possible line-ups and rotations; and has relatively-quickly settled into what seems like close to the best any coach could come up with. I'd give him a "B" so far.

Good enough (for me) for now.

Pablonovi
11-26-2013, 06:04 PM
Continuing on about Kobe's extension.
Nobody is getting LeBron; if he stays with the Heat, Riles will keep him surrounded with a bunch of specialists. And LBJ surrounding by specialists is like Magic during ShowTime; only LBJ (imo) is better than Magic (his almost-equal at passing, his superior at everything else). If LeBron stays in Miami, he's gonna rack up everything he needs to have a shot at being considered GOAT #1 after his career.

So, the Lakers weren't going to get him. Melo would be a mistake for them.

I hear lots of people saying this Kobe-deal kills the chances for more Chips for him and the team (for the next two years). But, doesn't this assume that the Lakers under no circumstances will go over the cap? Other teams have gone over it (big time). IF the Lakers see the right combination of players that can put them seriously in the running for more Chips soon; they've got the money, so I bet they'll go over the cap in such a case; and put together a serious contender. Whether they can beat the Heat-juggernaut is debatable.

Or am I wrong about the cap, meaning, that the Lakers can't go over it even if they want to?

ManRam
11-26-2013, 06:17 PM
The only difference between the Lakers and Knicks this year is defense. Their offenses have been performing at a a nearly identical rate. But defensively, LAL has been slightly above average whereas the Knicks are posting the 2nd worst defensive rating.

The reason for that: Jordan Hill and Pau Gasol are playing great defense and the Knicks don't have a single competent rim protector. Surely it's not that simple, but in many ways it probably is. Personnel matters, it's not all on the coaches.


Woodson's team was able to succeed much more last year because Chandler was manning the paint and the offense was deadly from three. This year he's got neither so both his offense and defense have gone to ****. Is that his fault or the personnel? I'd say more of the latter :shrug:

As for MDA, I think we need to look at last year and realize that the expectations we had pre-season were just flat out wrong. The problems they had were very real, and much of that was out of MDA's hands. Nash was useless. Dwight had his worst year in forever. Pau couldn't adjust and had literally his worst season ever...by far. I don't think that's all D'Antoni's fault. But he was a worthwhile scapegoat for everyone who wasn't ready to admit that the group of 4 the Lakers had just wasn't what we all (including me...I thought they were gonna go to the Finals) thought they were.


Woodson is neither as great of a coach as it appeared last year nor is he as bad of a coach as it appears this year. D'Antoni wasn't as bad of a coach as he was made out to be last year, and he's doing a really good job this year.

tp13baby
11-26-2013, 06:36 PM
All I care is that the Knicks need to keep losing so Denver can have the best pick possible, because anything can happen in the lottery.

Pablonovi
11-27-2013, 01:18 PM
The only difference between the Lakers and Knicks this year is defense. Their offenses have been performing at a a nearly identical rate. But defensively, LAL has been slightly above average whereas the Knicks are posting the 2nd worst defensive rating.

The reason for that: Jordan Hill and Pau Gasol are playing great defense and the Knicks don't have a single competent rim protector. Surely it's not that simple, but in many ways it probably is. Personnel matters, it's not all on the coaches.


Woodson's team was able to succeed much more last year because Chandler was manning the paint and the offense was deadly from three. This year he's got neither so both his offense and defense have gone to ****. Is that his fault or the personnel? I'd say more of the latter :shrug:

As for MDA, I think we need to look at last year and realize that the expectations we had pre-season were just flat out wrong. The problems they had were very real, and much of that was out of MDA's hands. Nash was useless. Dwight had his worst year in forever. Pau couldn't adjust and had literally his worst season ever...by far. I don't think that's all D'Antoni's fault. But he was a worthwhile scapegoat for everyone who wasn't ready to admit that the group of 4 the Lakers had just wasn't what we all (including me...I thought they were gonna go to the Finals) thought they were.


Woodson is neither as great of a coach as it appeared last year nor is he as bad of a coach as it appears this year. D'Antoni wasn't as bad of a coach as he was made out to be last year, and he's doing a really good job this year.

Hey ManRamForPrez24,
Except for your very first paragraph, I think your post is pretty right on.

MDA IS doing a really good job this year. I think he did a very good job with the Suns; few if any coaches could have done better - his system allowed Nash to be that great (kind of like no other system would have allowed Magic to be Magic except ShowTime).

About Woodson I think you're probably right too - wasn't quite as good as credited last year; can't be as bad as it looks this year - this year's team is a full-on disaster (stagnant iso offense, zilch for defense, injuries ...).

Lakers last year: Was anybody anywhere claiming, before the year began, that the Lakers wouldn't be great? Few if any. In any event, my personal opinion is that virtually none of that is on MDA (missing preseason and first 10 games, injuries, Dwight-attitude problems, unworkability of Dwight-Pau *, Metta becoming mediocre on defense and sh_t on 3s, Meeks and other on 3s - it was an unmitigated compound-fracture. No one could have dome much better than he did; and we were 28-12 over the last 40 games, best in the League, who could have done much better than that?

Your first paragraph: True they got nobody willing AND able to play defense. But, on offense, the Lakers have delicious ball-movement; the Knicks have unwatchable ISO. That's a huge difference; diametrical opposites. The Lakers are getting lots out of the so-so talent they have, and it's improving. The Knicks are demoralizing themselves with the frustration of iso ball.

* Dwight-compatibility problems: Dwight-Pau no good; Dwight-Asik no good. Pau-Dwight no good, Pau-Hill = great! The problem WAS/IS Dwight, not MDA.

Pablonovi
11-27-2013, 01:20 PM
All I care is that the Knicks need to keep losing so Denver can have the best pick possible, because anything can happen in the lottery.

Hey tp13baby,
Too true any year; just about GUARANTEED this one.

blahblahyoutoo
12-12-2013, 12:23 AM
Woodson showing how he earned that contract extension and coty candidacy last year with a solid win tonight over the Bulls.

John Walls Era
12-12-2013, 12:32 AM
Woodson isnt that bad. Look at that team, they only have Melo. JR Brick is overrated and is too busy snorting. Barfnani sucks. Raymond Felton eats too much fried food. They need Tyson back.

Pablonovi
12-12-2013, 12:54 PM
Woodson isnt that bad. Look at that team, they only have Melo. JR Brick is overrated and is too busy snorting. Barfnani sucks. Raymond Felton eats too much fried food. They need Tyson back.

Hey John Walls Era,
This is not only all too true; it's funny as hell * Bravo!

* You might have added: "Tyson is too busy recovering."

Pablonovi
12-12-2013, 12:56 PM
Woodson showing how he earned that contract extension and coty candidacy last year with a solid win tonight over the Bulls.

Hey blahblahyoutoo,
Was this a joke?
I mean it WAS a solid win for sure; but the post-DRose Bulls aren't exactly winning many games these days either, right?

NYK|NYY
12-12-2013, 01:10 PM
I think its pretty hilarious Woodson is still coaching at this point.

Jetsguy
12-12-2013, 01:25 PM
Woodson is a better coach than most give him credit for despite the Knicks poor play this year. He has improved his teams EVERY year he has coached - I am not sure many if any can say that can they? That is the goal right? To get better every year?

Since he started in ATL:

13 wins
26 wins
30 wins
37 wins
47 wins
53 wins
18-6
54 wins
now this season

I think that is pretty remarkable in today's NBA. Not saying he is a HOF'er or anything, not even saying he is the right guy for the Knicks (although I think he is, but I can be disuaded).

The Knicks are a good team and I think they will come around when Tyson gets back. They have glaring holes that he cant fix and sometimes he coaches away from strengths but he IS a good coach and his team is having a bad year

L8kers4life
12-12-2013, 01:44 PM
The only difference between the Lakers and Knicks this year is defense. Their offenses have been performing at a a nearly identical rate. But defensively, LAL has been slightly above average whereas the Knicks are posting the 2nd worst defensive rating.

The reason for that: Jordan Hill and Pau Gasol are playing great defense and the Knicks don't have a single competent rim protector. Surely it's not that simple, but in many ways it probably is. Personnel matters, it's not all on the coaches.


Woodson's team was able to succeed much more last year because Chandler was manning the paint and the offense was deadly from three. This year he's got neither so both his offense and defense have gone to ****. Is that his fault or the personnel? I'd say more of the latter :shrug:

As for MDA, I think we need to look at last year and realize that the expectations we had pre-season were just flat out wrong. The problems they had were very real, and much of that was out of MDA's hands. Nash was useless. Dwight had his worst year in forever. Pau couldn't adjust and had literally his worst season ever...by far. I don't think that's all D'Antoni's fault. But he was a worthwhile scapegoat for everyone who wasn't ready to admit that the group of 4 the Lakers had just wasn't what we all (including me...I thought they were gonna go to the Finals) thought they were.


Woodson is neither as great of a coach as it appeared last year nor is he as bad of a coach as it appears this year. D'Antoni wasn't as bad of a coach as he was made out to be last year, and he's doing a really good job this year.


Pau has not played good defense and has not protected the rim, he has been awful on D.

ewing
12-12-2013, 02:26 PM
D'antoni. The lakers are very watchable and likable ball club. My knicks are not

blahblahyoutoo
12-12-2013, 04:07 PM
Woodson isnt that bad. Look at that team, they only have Melo. JR Brick is overrated and is too busy snorting. Barfnani sucks. Raymond Felton eats too much fried food. They need Tyson back.

they basically have the same core as last year when they started 18-6 or whatever right?

blahblahyoutoo
12-12-2013, 04:07 PM
Hey blahblahyoutoo,
Was this a joke?
I mean it WAS a solid win for sure; but the post-DRose Bulls aren't exactly winning many games these days either, right?

the bulls lost to the bucks the prev game but beat my heat so they're not a complete joke.

blahblahyoutoo
12-12-2013, 04:08 PM
The problem with D'antoni is that he requires specific players to run his system, anything outside that is pure disaster.

Live and die by the 3 is his motto.

and phil jackson needs a top 1 shooting guard to run his triangle. anything outside that he retires.

so what does that make phil?

lakeshow22
12-12-2013, 06:40 PM
woodson

D-Leethal
12-12-2013, 10:33 PM
Woodson is more robust, D'Antoni is the better coach. Like it or not, D'Antoni is the biggest reason the game we watch today is played the way it is. Many basketball people are on the record saying that. He needs the right guys for his system, but when executed properly its beautiful to watch.