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wowzah
11-20-2013, 11:29 PM
Is this the weakest the NBA has been since post MJ Bulls?

There is only 1 truly great player right now. And Durant is the only real challenge to him. That's about it. You have LeBron and then Durant who's a very formidable player, but then after that it's just horrible. Maybe Kevin Love is pretty decent, but his games doesn't translate to victories and he plays no defense.

You used to have Shaq, Kobe, Wade, Duncan, Garnett, Dirk and then a bunch of high volume scorers like McGrady, Iverson, Carter. They were not championship level players, but still pretty good and probably were held back by the fact that the former group was just that good.

All these guys are old now. Duncan outlasted them all and gave it one last right last year, but he looks like he's finally ready for the drop off. He's been on the dip for a while now though.

Really I think it's because there aren't any good big men at all these days. We still have 2 really good wing players, but no guys inside. LeBron is actually a good big man. I think when he plays PF like last year his game reaches it's full potential, but I digress.

I'm ignoring Paul and Parker because they are like 6'. I'm sorry, but I'm not putting my championship hopes on the shoulders of minions.

P&GRealist
11-20-2013, 11:50 PM
Wade was never part of that era you just mentioned with all those guys.

And yes, this is the weakest era. Superstars are now friends on and off the court, the competitive level is maybe at what it is at AAU and summer basketball camps, but no one really hates each other on the court with these young group of superstars.

That's why it's said that guys like Kobe, Duncan and to a certain extent Garnett (although he was never at the level of the 2 aforementioned guys) are the last of a dying breed.

ManRam
11-20-2013, 11:57 PM
There are a lot of great players, it's just the gap between LeBron and them is so huge because LeBron is playing at a level that we've almost never seen before.

There are a ton of great perimeter players, and lesser big men, for sure. But these perimeter players are tremendous. It might be the best batch we've had in a very long time.

KD had a historically amazing season last year. Paul continues to play some of the best PG we've ever seen. Harden, Melo, Wade, Westbrook etc. are tremendous offensive players. When Rose gets healthy...he's a stud. Kobe had one of his better seasons too last year.

Anthony Davis is poised to break out. Love is healthy and playing tremendous basketball. We have some AMAZING defensive big men. Sure, this era lacks the great two-way centers, but I do think a lot of these guys stack up well defensively.


I don't think the talent is all the weak, honestly. It might look different in terms of position and what not, but it's still there.

That trio of LeBron, Paul and Durant alone is enough to stack up with most years over the past few decades.

ManRam
11-20-2013, 11:58 PM
Wade was never part of that era you just mentioned with all those guys.

And yes, this is the weakest era. Superstars are now friends on and off the court, the competitive level is maybe at what it is at AAU and summer basketball camps, but no one really hates each other on the court with these young group of superstars.

That's why it's said that guys like Kobe, Duncan and to a certain extent Garnett (although he was never at the level of the 2 aforementioned guys) are the last of a dying breed.

I don't get what the big deal is with people getting along. It's different these days...and it became inevitable. These guys know each other for so long growing up, and are thus around each other so frequently.

But on the court? It's still cut throat. They might not be Charles Oakley'ing it up out there, but we've had some incredibly entertaining playoff runs lately. You can't deny that.

wowzah
11-20-2013, 11:59 PM
There are a lot of great players, it's just the gap between LeBron and them is so huge because LeBron is playing at a level that we've almost never seen before.

There are a ton of great perimeter players, and lesser big men, for sure. But these perimeter players are tremendous. It might be the best batch we've had in a very long time.

KD had a historically amazing season last year. Paul continues to play some of the best PG we've ever seen. Harden, Melo, Wade, Westbrook etc. are tremendous offensive players. When Rose gets healthy...he's a stud. Kobe had one of his better seasons too last year.

Anthony Davis is poised to break out. Love is healthy and playing tremendous basketball. We have some AMAZING defensive big men. Sure, this era lacks the great two-way centers, but I do think a lot of these guys stack up well defensively.


I don't think the talent is all the weak, honestly. It might look different in terms of position and what not, but it's still there.

That trio of LeBron, Paul and Durant alone is enough to stack up with most years over the past few decades.

He's a great PG no doubt, but he's just too small. He hasn't been able to carry his teams in the postseason. I don't see greatness there.

SPURSFAN1
11-21-2013, 12:00 AM
Wade wasn't part of those guys.

ricky recon
11-21-2013, 12:00 AM
Duncan, Kobe, Wade, and Dirk all still play at a very high level. There are tons of great players. To me, it's actually quite the opposite.

ManRam
11-21-2013, 12:07 AM
I know this is just one way of looking at it, and very random, incomplete and won't appeal to everyone. But whatever. It paints some picture.

Last year's top 10 WS/48 players.

James - .322
Durant - .291
Paul - .287
Chandler - .207
Parker - .206
Harden - .206
Gasol - .197
Griffin - .196
RWB - .195
Wade - .192


10 years ago, 2003

T-Mac - .262
Shaq - .250
Dirk - .249
Duncan - .248
KG - .225
Kobe - .210
Nash - .206
Billups - .204
Brad Miller - .202
AK47 - .202

20 years ago, 1993

MJ - .270
Barkley - .242
Malone - .238
Hakeem - .234
Dougherty - .226
Admiral - .197
Price - .197
Nique - .191
Nance - .187
Reggie - .183


Doesn't look to bad. We can romanticize with the past plenty, but there is A LOT of greatness unraveling right before our eyes right now :shrug: If we add Love, Davis, Paul George, Steph, etc. to that picture and it looks even better.

ManRam
11-21-2013, 12:10 AM
He's a great PG no doubt, but he's just too small. He hasn't been able to carry his teams in the postseason. I don't see greatness there.

Well, I'm sorry for you then. If you can't see his greatness, that must suck.

I see a guy who was stuck on some awful teams in the past. Last year was a disappointment, sure but not because of him. Did you see how great he was in the playoffs? Have you peeped his career playoff numbers? They're tremendous. Individually he is pure greatness...and one of the absolute best PGs ever. The team success isn't there, but there's a reason it's called team success. He never didn't get those NO teams to overachieve while he was there. This LAC team has real flaws, too. And those flaws are independent of him.

THE MTL
11-21-2013, 12:10 AM
Maybe true superstar wise its the weakest cause honestly outside of Lebron Durant and Paul, there are no absolute superstars. Maybe Kevin Love, Paul George, James Harden you can add to that list.

But as far as team makeup. I feel that the league is more competitive than its ever been. This season truly ANY TEAM on the court no matter what the matchup is and no matter who's playing has a chance on the court to win the game.

wowzah
11-21-2013, 12:11 AM
I'm still going to have to disagree. If 37 year old Duncan can take the NBA to the brink then it does not add up. I know it can never be done, but put prime Kobe, Shaq, Garnett, etc. on neutral teams and have them match up against Durant, Paul, George, Curry and it's going to look ugly IMO.

ManRam
11-21-2013, 12:16 AM
I'm still going to have to disagree. If 37 year old Duncan can take the NBA to the brink then it does not add up. I know it can never be done, but put prime Kobe, Shaq, Garnett, etc. on neutral teams and have them match up against Durant, Paul, George, Curry and it's going to look ugly IMO.

1. Duncan wasn't the best player on his team last year, and the team was much more than just him. It was a great TEAM. Duncan was a part of that team, a big one, but come on.
2. He was better last year than he was in 2006 :shrug: Let's not pretend like he was a bad player. He was 36-37, sure, but still really, really good.


And league parity is great! We have a good amount of it now, and have for quite some time. That's a big reason why many feel we've had some great seasons lately. The Heat are the best team, but they haven't been steam-rolling teams, at all.

wowzah
11-21-2013, 12:18 AM
1. Duncan wasn't the best player on his team last year, and the team was much more than just him. It was a great TEAM. Duncan was a part of that team, a big one, but come on.
2. He was better last year than he was in 2006 :shrug: Let's not pretend like he was a bad player. He was 36-37, sure, but still really, really good.


And league parity is great! We have a good amount of it now, and have for quite some time. That's a big reason why many feel we've had some great seasons lately. The Heat are the best team, but they haven't been steam-rolling teams, at all.

Do you feel that the stars of today outside of LeBron stack up to the stars of just a little while ago?

SugeKnight
11-21-2013, 02:47 AM
2014 draft will bring in a couple superstars

tredigs
11-21-2013, 03:15 AM
Do you feel that the stars of today outside of LeBron stack up to the stars of just a little while ago?

Kevin Durant makes Dominique Wilkins look like a ****ing infant. A CP3/Stockton battle would be some of the best basketball you could ask for, and up and comers like Anthony Davis are every bit as dynamic as a young Garnett. That's expressing nothing of the overall breadth of talent the league currently has. It's as rich as it has ever been.

LeperMessiah
11-21-2013, 03:23 AM
Maybe you should watch the basketball.

ThaDubs
11-21-2013, 03:59 AM
He's a great PG no doubt, but he's just too small. He hasn't been able to carry his teams in the postseason. I don't see greatness there.

Doesn't matter. He's leading point guards in rebounding and I've seen him get some AMAZING offensive rebounds in my lifetime despite being about 5'11-6'0. He's averaging 20 points and 13 assists which is absolutely elite. He is also holding a 27 or so PER while shooting a low percentage from the field and from 3. The only reason his TS% isn't bad is because he's missed like 1 freethrow this year. He holds multiple NBA records and... man, I don't know. If you don't greatness in Chris Paul you must be crazy. Do you see how he impeccably orchestrates the offensive? He is the reason the Clippers are 8-4. Without him the record would be reversed. Kobe, Duncan, and KG are not the last of a dying breed. Durant, LeBron, CP3, Harden, Irving, Curry, PG, K Love, etc. are all crazily talented and fun to watch. It may not be as bumpy grindy sandpaper hardcore as it was in the 70-90's, but there is definitely enough talent to keep people entertained if they're watching the right games. If you like old school watch the Grizzlies or Spurs.

TrueFan420
11-21-2013, 04:07 AM
Kevin Durant makes Dominique Wilkins look like a ****ing infant. A CP3/Stockton battle would be some of the best basketball you could ask for, and up and comers like Anthony Davis are every bit as dynamic as a young Garnett. That's expressing nothing of the overall breadth of talent the league currently has. It's as rich as it has ever been.
It has a lot of quality everywhere.

However, if durant is the second best tho he wouldn't be matched to Wilkins. He'd be matched to Duncan. Last era saw shaq as most dominate much like this belongs to Lebron. Duncan was second most dominate to shaq. So does durant stack up to him?

tredigs
11-21-2013, 04:43 AM
It has a lot of quality everywhere.

However, if durant is the second best tho he wouldn't be matched to Wilkins. He'd be matched to Duncan. Last era saw shaq as most dominate much like this belongs to Lebron. Duncan was second most dominate to shaq. So does durant stack up to him?

Well, Dominique was considered the preeminent scoring SF of that generation. Duncan came much later, and he hasn't left yet. But yes, I'd stack KD up among the best of the best of the #2's in NBA history. Even though he isn't quite in his prime.

ThaDubs
11-21-2013, 04:50 AM
Well, Dominique was considered the preeminent scoring SF of that generation. Duncan came much later, and he hasn't left yet. But yes, I'd stack KD up among the best of the best of the #2's in NBA history. Even though he isn't quite in his prime.

Kevin Durant could seriously average 35/9/5 in his prime in my opinion. It sucks for him LeBron is in the league. Making it impossible to win an MVP right now. Hopefully LeBron will have deteriorated enough by then for KD to win 1 or 2 MVPs.

TrueFan420
11-21-2013, 04:57 AM
Well, Dominique was considered the preeminent scoring SF of that generation. Duncan came much later, and he hasn't left yet. But yes, I'd stack KD up among the best of the best of the #2's in NBA history. Even though he isn't quite in his prime.

He isn't quite in his prime your right but I don't see it. He can't now and don't think he will ever dominate both sides of the ball like Duncan did who was considered the second best of his era.

tredigs
11-21-2013, 05:00 AM
He isn't quite in his prime your right but I don't see it. He can't now and don't think he will ever dominate both sides of the ball like Duncan did who was considered the second best of his era.

Duncan was THE best to me for a few years, and tho' there's no doubt that KD won't have his defensive impact, he trumps him offensively. A 6'11" swing who shoots the lights out from 3, can get to the rim with power and at will while hitting 90%+ from the line? He's an absolute force. I see AD having Duncan like impact on both ends in the coming years, though. If we're looking at bigs.

Goose17
11-21-2013, 05:01 AM
There are a lot of great players, it's just the gap between LeBron and them is so huge because LeBron is playing at a level that we've almost never seen before.

I don't think the talent is all the weak, honestly. It might look different in terms of position and what not, but it's still there.



This^ Especially the part about Lebron.


This is probably one of the top 2 or 3 decades for point guards, I mean there's just so much depth at that position.

You also have some truly great talent at the wings.

TrueFan420
11-21-2013, 05:09 AM
Duncan was THE best to me for a few years, and tho' there's no doubt that KD won't have his defensive impact, he trumps him offensively. A 6'11" swing who shoots the lights out from 3, can get to the rim with power and at will while hitting 90%+ from the line? He's an absolute force. I see AD having Duncan like impact on both ends in the coming years, though. If we're looking at bigs.

Maybe but most will look at shaq as one and Duncan two of the past era. Yes Duncan and durant are very different players but I'm taking about who is considered second of the era which most would consider both of. them. I'd take Duncan's offense over durant. Efficient post offensive players never go out of style.

As far as AD to Duncan. Yes they could be very similar but I doubt AD ever reaches the level dominance that Duncan did.

tredigs
11-21-2013, 05:19 AM
Maybe but most will look at shaq as one and Duncan two of the past era. Yes Duncan and durant are very different players but I'm taking about who is considered second of the era which most would consider both of. them. I'd take Duncan's offense over durant. Efficient post offensive players never go out of style.

As far as AD to Duncan. Yes they could be very similar but I doubt AD ever reaches the level dominance that Duncan did.


2003-06 I want peak Duncan on my team over the veteran Shaq. AD needs the right fit/coach/organization to reach his potential, but he looks like a generational talent.

As far as Duncan's offense over KD, it's not happening. Being the top scorer in the league while being a perennial 50/40/90 threat and having the size to rise over any swing in the league who attempts to guard you is what really never goes out of style. Throw in his 5+ APG playmaking ability at this point and it's really not a fair comparison. KD's the 2nd best offensive player I've seen to Jordan in person myself (that's basically '90 and beyond). Lb for lb, I won't rule out young buck Curry, though ; ]

TornadoOfSouls
11-21-2013, 05:47 AM
1. Duncan wasn't the best player on his team last year, and the team was much more than just him. It was a great TEAM. Duncan was a part of that team, a big one, but come on.
2. He was better last year than he was in 2006 :shrug: Let's not pretend like he was a bad player. He was 36-37, sure, but still really, really good.

No, he wasn't. You must be looking at his regular season numbers when he was mostly taking it easy due to the plantar fasciitis he was suffering from all year. In the 2006 playoffs, he averaged:

26/11/3/2 on 57% field goal percentage(.625 TS%) over 13 games.

TD had a 30.4 PER and .252 WS/48 that post-season. Compare that to 2013 Duncan that had a 21.3 PER and .161 WS/48 in the 2013 playoffs. Huge difference. SA probably beats the Heat in five game with 2006 Duncan in place of 2013 Duncan.

And your first point basically contradicts your second point. If 2013 Duncan wasn't even the best player on his own team then how the hell is he better than 2006 Duncan who sure as hell WAS the best player on the 2006 Spurs.

TornadoOfSouls
11-21-2013, 06:27 AM
As far as the topic is concerned, I've never been interested in these "last generation was better" discussions. It always comes down to fans preferring the NBA era they grew up with.

I remember 90s fans constantly berating 00s fans for the NBA being boring, low-scoring, defense-heavy. I'm sure fans of the 80s did the same thing to the 90s fanboys too.

Personally, I think Lebron is a type of player that would be great in any era of basketball. He's legit. Not so convinced about Durant though. Definitely a big dropoff from number 1 to number 2. Guys like him and Harden derive a lot of their offense from free throws. Durant would still be a star in previous eras(because he's a great shooter) but his point totals would be significantly lower without those overly generous whistles he gets every game. Guys like Harden would NOT be stars. Great role player but not a franchise talent like he's made out to be in the current NBA.

I'm really hopeful about Anthony Davis though. First big I've seen that combines great skill and athleticism since Robinson and KG. Needs to get rid of that stupid unibrow gimmick though.

PurpleLynch
11-21-2013, 07:57 AM
Is this the weakest the NBA has been since post MJ Bulls?

There is only 1 truly great player right now. And Durant is the only real challenge to him. That's about it. You have LeBron and then Durant who's a very formidable player, but then after that it's just horrible. Maybe Kevin Love is pretty decent, but his games doesn't translate to victories and he plays no defense.

You used to have Shaq, Kobe, Wade, Duncan, Garnett, Dirk and then a bunch of high volume scorers like McGrady, Iverson, Carter. They were not championship level players, but still pretty good and probably were held back by the fact that the former group was just that good.

All these guys are old now. Duncan outlasted them all and gave it one last right last year, but he looks like he's finally ready for the drop off. He's been on the dip for a while now though.

Really I think it's because there aren't any good big men at all these days. We still have 2 really good wing players, but no guys inside. LeBron is actually a good big man. I think when he plays PF like last year his game reaches it's full potential, but I digress.

I'm ignoring Paul and Parker because they are like 6'. I'm sorry, but I'm not putting my championship hopes on the shoulders of minions.


Yes,so height is one of the major factor in winning championships. This is absolutely ignorant. In 2007 Parker led the Spurs to a championship.

TornadoOfSouls
11-21-2013, 08:15 AM
Yes,so height is one of the major factor in winning championships. This is absolutely ignorant. In 2007 Parker led the Spurs to a championship.

Parker wasn't even the 2nd best player on the 2007 Spurs. He won the Finals MVP because the Cavs had an anemic backcourt. Not that impressive to put up those numbers against Boobie Gibson. Duncan was guarded by Varejao/Ilgauskas and Manu had Lebron covering him at times.

Look at the total playoff numbers for the 2007 Spurs. Parker was clearly the 3rd best player on the team:

Duncan:

22/12/3/3
27.4 PER
.214 WS/48

Ginobili:

16.7/5.5/3.7/1.7
21.9 PER
.204 WS/48

Parker:

19.9/3.4/5.8
18.7 PER
.100 WS/48

wowzah
11-21-2013, 09:06 AM
Point Guards are massively overrated when it comes to contributing to team success. Some exceptions include the power forward playing PG named Magic Johnson and the same with LeBron when he's put at the PG. I will go to my grave dying when I say that PG's are overrated for on floor impact.

Also, this thread has nothing to do with how exciting the players were in the last generation compared to now. It has nothing to do with that. The quality of superstars. has decreased, at least I think that. LeBron stacks up, but after that it's just a wipeout. Whoever you want to say was #2 in the last generation (Shaq or Duncan) would murder Durant in their primes in a 7 game series on neutral teams. The 3rd best of last generation in Kobe is far beyond anybody today as 3rd greatest player today. Garnett and Dirk come next and they destroy the 4th and 5th best players of today.

As far as winning, today's superstars just don't stack up IMO.

ewing
11-21-2013, 10:41 AM
the league has actually had a great influx of talent on the past couple years. I think we hit a low point in during the AI/Stevie Franchise era

hugepatsfan
11-21-2013, 11:00 AM
Too many teams are starting to realize that being in the middle is suicide in the NBA. You either want to be a contender or tanking for a top pick, especially this year. It's made the gap between the top and the bottom too big and the regular season has become boring and monotonous to me. Even the first round usually sucks. The NBA just isn't more than mildly entertaining to me until the second round of the playoffs.

A lack of talent isn't the problem. It's just that a third of the teams in the NBA are looking to trade it away rather than acquire it.

FlashBolt
11-21-2013, 01:32 PM
Lol at people thinking anyone back then = Shaq. Only Duncan/KG was capable of matching up to Shaq. Everyone else was not in that discussion. Also, the reason why is because James is on another level. He's distanced himself so far. He's just too good.

Hellcrooner
11-21-2013, 02:43 PM
its a transition point.

Old stars fading/retiring ( Duncan, kg, dirk, wade, Pau,Shaq, Kidd, nash etc etc) and some new guys just stepping in .

Its similar to the 93-97 period where old stars retired or faded and new stars where just coming into the league.


its still better than the late 70s tough.

LeGacy is Music
11-21-2013, 02:57 PM
I know what you mean Jeremy Lin was a big story in NY. That had that buzz you know. He killed that momentum by being greedy and asking for more money. If he stayed in NY and made it to the ECF he would have made more money anyway

koreancabbage
11-21-2013, 03:00 PM
I know what you mean Jeremy Lin was a big story in NY. That had that buzz you know. He killed that momentum by being greedy and asking for more money. If he stayed in NY and made it to the ECF he would have made more money anyway

he was offered the poison pill contract that NY wouldn't take. Lin was being offered the market rate. Houston was probably the best place he could go due to the Yao Ming fans there. and besides, he's on youtube all the time.

AddiX
11-21-2013, 03:04 PM
The nba is pretty awful this year.

Lot of talent in the league, maybe more than ever before, but these dudes can't play together for there lives, to many young guys playing AAU ball.

Even the good teams suck right now. It's a tough league to watch, only a Handful of teams I even bother with, and I was pretty excited before the year started.

Even the good teams this year look bored.

Stinkyoutsider
11-21-2013, 03:24 PM
There's a lot of great talent but I don't think it feels the same as far as the competition level? There's much more of a sportsmanship theme to the league now that was kind of in the background 15 or so years ago, where we fans didn't see it too often. Instead, we saw guys who wanted to absolutely destroy their opponents (in the past) in a way competitors could really appreciate.

I'm not sure about all of you, but I think that having the desire to destroy your opponent out there because you can't stand it if they beat you makes for better competition.

We see guys slap hands, hang out, and then come on the court and I expect them to go at each other with a serious desire to destroy each other. And, it's just not happening this way. I want to see Lebron and Durant go at it like Bird and Magic went at it. Or Jordan and Thomas...

IversonIsKrazy
11-21-2013, 03:48 PM
I'd say past few years have been injury-proned, but talent is there. THe talent still stacks up no doubt. We are however entering, if not already entered, the PG-dominated era now. Something NBA hasn't rly been in before.

Hawkeye15
11-21-2013, 05:08 PM
The biggest issue is, the clear cut best is so much better than any of his competition, it appears to be the weakest since the Jordan era if you want to measure it that way. But no, the game is as good as ever. This is a weird year with a number of teams throwing in the towel early, but there are still many contenders. By the end of the year, there will be a ton of good teams, a ton of bad teams, and the mediocre teams will probably be fewer, due to intentional tanking and GM's playing a hand in what happens negatively on the court more than usual.

Hawkeye15
11-21-2013, 05:09 PM
I'd say past few years have been injury-proned, but talent is there. THe talent still stacks up no doubt. We are however entering, if not already entered, the PG-dominated era now. Something NBA hasn't rly been in before.

and how many of the PG driven teams have seen the finals? The game may be changing some, but the recipe hasn't.

wowzah
11-21-2013, 05:49 PM
The biggest issue is, the clear cut best is so much better than any of his competition, it appears to be the weakest since the Jordan era if you want to measure it that way. But no, the game is as good as ever. This is a weird year with a number of teams throwing in the towel early, but there are still many contenders. By the end of the year, there will be a ton of good teams, a ton of bad teams, and the mediocre teams will probably be fewer, due to intentional tanking and GM's playing a hand in what happens negatively on the court more than usual.

Good post. Maybe the LeBron factor is contributing to lack of "other" superstars in the NBA. Just because he's so much better than everyone else.

I think the main issue is the lack of skilled big men offensively. Wouldn't you agree that big men usually make up most of the most superstar players in the NBA? Throw in a few wings here and there and then add Magic Johnson.

We already have 1 great wing player and could have 2 if Durant can somehow get better and win a title. That's about normal in each generation. We just don't have those 3-4 big men that are all time greats. They aren't there.

ricky recon
11-21-2013, 06:02 PM
I don't think you could have watched last night's game between the Rockets and Mavericks and say that Dirk Nowitzki is fading.

Hellcrooner
11-21-2013, 06:08 PM
Good post. Maybe the LeBron factor is contributing to lack of "other" superstars in the NBA. Just because he's so much better than everyone else.

I think the main issue is the lack of skilled big men offensively. Wouldn't you agree that big men usually make up most of the most superstar players in the NBA? Throw in a few wings here and there and then add Magic Johnson.

We already have 1 great wing player and could have 2 if Durant can somehow get better and win a title. That's about normal in each generation. We just don't have those 3-4 big men that are all time greats. They aren't there.

:scratch:

Both Gasols, Lopez, Kg, Duncan, Bargnani, Dirk, Hibbert, Griffin, Love, Aldrige, Zbo, Boozer, Stou, Bosh.............

Offense is not the issue with bigs.

Well, not because of them at least.

Maube is the PG not passing them the rock enough.

Bruno
11-21-2013, 06:13 PM
no. last years post-season was a devastating year in regards to injury, but that doesn't mean it's a weak era. I'd never seen so many greats knocked out of playoff contention due to health.

transition periods always seem weak when you're in the middle of them. well look back on last year and this year and realize that the league was very stacked. there's a lot of brilliant talent and Durant, James, Davis and Love are all hovering around the same place statistically.

the Pacers are also looking pretty brilliant on their way to their first NBA championship.

Pablonovi
11-21-2013, 06:30 PM
Is this the weakest the NBA has been since post MJ Bulls?

There is only 1 truly great player right now. And Durant is the only real challenge to him. That's about it. You have LeBron and then Durant who's a very formidable player, but then after that it's just horrible. Maybe Kevin Love is pretty decent, but his games doesn't translate to victories and he plays no defense.

You used to have Shaq, Kobe, Wade, Duncan, Garnett, Dirk and then a bunch of high volume scorers like McGrady, Iverson, Carter. They were not championship level players, but still pretty good and probably were held back by the fact that the former group was just that good.

All these guys are old now. Duncan outlasted them all and gave it one last right last year, but he looks like he's finally ready for the drop off. He's been on the dip for a while now though.

Really I think it's because there aren't any good big men at all these days. We still have 2 really good wing players, but no guys inside. LeBron is actually a good big man. I think when he plays PF like last year his game reaches it's full potential, but I digress.

I'm ignoring Paul and Parker because they are like 6'. I'm sorry, but I'm not putting my championship hopes on the shoulders of minions.

Hey wowzah,
I can't remember the last time (season) I was this excited & determined to do my best * to love the NBA. And, now, with Kobe (almost) back; I'm losing sleep ... catching up with the late-games. There's been a bunch of great stuff (player accomplishments (some quite surprising), thunder-dunks, roaring late-game comebacks, OVERTIME THRILLERS ... ). How can anybody find today's NBA "weak"???

Or is it just (old-age getting the best of) me?

* A "Golden Years" movie quote/reference.

valade16
11-21-2013, 06:37 PM
The biggest issue is, the clear cut best is so much better than any of his competition, it appears to be the weakest since the Jordan era if you want to measure it that way. But no, the game is as good as ever. This is a weird year with a number of teams throwing in the towel early, but there are still many contenders. By the end of the year, there will be a ton of good teams, a ton of bad teams, and the mediocre teams will probably be fewer, due to intentional tanking and GM's playing a hand in what happens negatively on the court more than usual.

But even during Jordan there were still many other players people viewed as superstars like David Robinson, Hakeem Olajuwan, Clyde Drexler, Charles Barkeley.

I can't think of any other players people view as a superstar (by consensus) besides Durant and Paul.

The ultimate litmus test would probably be Patrick Ewing. If he were playing his prime ball right now on the NBA, where would he be ranked? Top 5? 4th behind those guys?

Or would he be lower?

Bishnoff
11-21-2013, 06:44 PM
Too many teams are starting to realize that being in the middle is suicide in the NBA. You either want to be a contender or tanking for a top pick, especially this year. It's made the gap between the top and the bottom too big and the regular season has become boring and monotonous to me. Even the first round usually sucks. The NBA just isn't more than mildly entertaining to me until the second round of the playoffs.

A lack of talent isn't the problem. It's just that a third of the teams in the NBA are looking to trade it away rather than acquire it.

That's a very interesting point. So does it all come back to the CBA and a greater dependence on building through the draft?

PurpleLynch
11-21-2013, 07:54 PM
Parker wasn't even the 2nd best player on the 2007 Spurs. He won the Finals MVP because the Cavs had an anemic backcourt. Not that impressive to put up those numbers against Boobie Gibson. Duncan was guarded by Varejao/Ilgauskas and Manu had Lebron covering him at times.

Look at the total playoff numbers for the 2007 Spurs. Parker was clearly the 3rd best player on the team:

Duncan:

22/12/3/3
27.4 PER
.214 WS/48

Ginobili:

16.7/5.5/3.7/1.7
21.9 PER
.204 WS/48

Parker:

19.9/3.4/5.8
18.7 PER
.100 WS/48


Did you see him going against Nash and the Suns?

Pablonovi
11-21-2013, 08:05 PM
There are a lot of great players, it's just the gap between LeBron and them is so huge because LeBron is playing at a level that we've almost never seen before.

There are a ton of great perimeter players, and lesser big men, for sure. But these perimeter players are tremendous. It might be the best batch we've had in a very long time.

KD had a historically amazing season last year. Paul continues to play some of the best PG we've ever seen. Harden, Melo, Wade, Westbrook etc. are tremendous offensive players. When Rose gets healthy...he's a stud. Kobe had one of his better seasons too last year.

Anthony Davis is poised to break out. Love is healthy and playing tremendous basketball. We have some AMAZING defensive big men. Sure, this era lacks the great two-way centers, but I do think a lot of these guys stack up well defensively.


I don't think the talent is all the weak, honestly. It might look different in terms of position and what not, but it's still there.

That trio of LeBron, Paul and Durant alone is enough to stack up with most years over the past few decades.

Hey ManRam....,
This and your other posts in this thread have all been spot-on.

ManRam
11-21-2013, 08:10 PM
2014 draft will bring in a couple superstars

Didn't even think of this. It's only gonna get better, because LeBron, KD, Paul, Davis, Love, Curry, George, Russell, Rose, ohmygodthelistkeepsgoingonandon are all spring chickens (sans that first trio, but they're firmly in their primes).


We got something great brewing :shrug:

ManRam
11-21-2013, 08:12 PM
No, he wasn't. You must be looking at his regular season numbers when he was mostly taking it easy due to the plantar fasciitis he was suffering from all year. In the 2006 playoffs, he averaged:

26/11/3/2 on 57% field goal percentage(.625 TS%) over 13 games.

TD had a 30.4 PER and .252 WS/48 that post-season. Compare that to 2013 Duncan that had a 21.3 PER and .161 WS/48 in the 2013 playoffs. Huge difference. SA probably beats the Heat in five game with 2006 Duncan in place of 2013 Duncan.

And your first point basically contradicts your second point. If 2013 Duncan wasn't even the best player on his own team then how the hell is he better than 2006 Duncan who sure as hell WAS the best player on the 2006 Spurs.

I was looking at regular season stats. I was playing into some hyperbole, for sure, but in the regular season he was no worse than he's been for a while now. Better than many recent seasons, even. 2006 was a stretch (trying to get a year as far back as comfortable) but the point remains.

And for your last paragraph, two words: Tony Parker :shrug:

JEDean89
11-21-2013, 08:19 PM
Anthony Davis is pretty much the best player ever imo. He's 20!, ****ing 20!, and he has a PER of 30 in 35.5 minutes per game. He is averaging over 4 blks per game at 20! and he's chipping in 2 steals for good measure. Again he is 20 years old people. Has there ever been a 20 year old who put up a PER of 30? Durant hasn't even done it yet I don't think. I really don't think people understand how incredible Anthony Davis is. His offense is great but no where near his ceiling, shooting over 50% and 83% from the line, at 20 years old for a big are you kidding me? I just gush over this kid, he clearly has an ego but IDGAF all the great ones do. His defense makes him the guy i'm starting a franchise with over anyone else in the NBA, I truly believe he is that once in a generational player that we've never seen before.

The talent in the NBA is just fine its just that the ownership and management has reached historic incompetencies. Franchies owned by teams such as the Knicks, Nuggets and Lakers have all seen the inheritance from fathers to spoiled little *****es like James Dolan and Josh Kroenke. It is a shame but I have no hope for the Knicks salvation if James Dolan is gonna run the team like a 15 year old girl runs her phone. He is attached to every trade rumor, always making emotional decisions. The Knicks have picks traded out to 2016, are in cap hell and have a star who is gonna command 26 million a year next year. If you sign Melo to a 6 year 130 million dollar deal you are paying him 30 mil when he is 36, you can't build a contender around him at that kind of money in this C.B.A. If you let him walk, you are forced to rebuild but you don't even have many draft picks. It's unreal.

ddhulett
11-21-2013, 08:20 PM
NBA isn't weak, you just have to except new stars besides James, Durant, Paul and Carmelo.

Kevin Love
Paul George
James Harden
Anthony Davis
Klay Thompson
Russell Westbrook
Blake Grivvin
LaMarcus ALdridge
Ty Lawson
Kyrie Irvin
DeMarcus Cousins
Bradley Beal
Damian Lillard

jerellh528
11-21-2013, 09:20 PM
No way, there's ton of talent throughout the league. Just look how amazing durant and the eyebrow are and theyre no where even close to their prime yet, imagine them at 28. Then you got guys like cp3, Lebron, George, love, rose etc. Talent is also spread pretty evenly amongst the teams, which is fun.

KnicksorBust
11-21-2013, 09:21 PM
Kevin Durant makes Dominique Wilkins look like a ****ing infant. A CP3/Stockton battle would be some of the best basketball you could ask for, and up and comers like Anthony Davis are every bit as dynamic as a young Garnett. That's expressing nothing of the overall breadth of talent the league currently has. It's as rich as it has ever been.

Agreed. Paul George and healthy Kevin Love are also putting up legit superstar performances this season as well.

That's not even discussing the greatest perimeter shooting backcourt in NBA History in Golden State.

tredigs
11-21-2013, 09:57 PM
NBA isn't weak, you just have to except new stars besides James, Durant, Paul and Carmelo.

Kevin Love
Paul George
James Harden
Anthony Davis
Klay Thompson
Russell Westbrook
Blake Grivvin
LaMarcus ALdridge
Ty Lawson
Kyrie Irvin
DeMarcus Cousins
Bradley Beal
Damian Lillard

You list Klay + Bradley Beal, but not John Wall or Curry? That's one way to look at it.

Pablonovi
11-21-2013, 10:52 PM
I know this is just one way of looking at it, and very random, incomplete and won't appeal to everyone. But whatever. It paints some picture.

Last year's top 10 WS/48 players.

James - .322
Durant - .291
Paul - .287
Chandler - .207
Parker - .206
Harden - .206
Gasol - .197
Griffin - .196
RWB - .195
Wade - .192


10 years ago, 2003

T-Mac - .262
Shaq - .250
Dirk - .249
Duncan - .248
KG - .225
Kobe - .210
Nash - .206
Billups - .204
Brad Miller - .202
AK47 - .202

20 years ago, 1993

MJ - .270
Barkley - .242
Malone - .238
Hakeem - .234
Dougherty - .226
Admiral - .197
Price - .197
Nique - .191
Nance - .187
Reggie - .183


Doesn't look to bad. We can romanticize with the past plenty, but there is A LOT of greatness unraveling right before our eyes right now :shrug: If we add Love, Davis, Paul George, Steph, etc. to that picture and it looks even better.

Hey ManRamForPrez,
Thanx for putting together and presenting this very useful info. (Beats making stuff up and arguing like un-informed idiots any day of the week, too).

P.S. Before anybody gets riled up by my "un-informed idiots" remark; I had one person in particular in mind, someone who, on occasion does make stuff up (perhaps due to faulty old-age induced memory-problems) and makes himself look like an idiot as a result. That person? .... me).

Pablonovi
11-21-2013, 10:56 PM
You list Klay + Bradley Beal, but not John Wall or Curry? That's one way to look at it.

Hey tredigs,
In this thread you've been on one fine roll. Good-to-great post after post. Nice

Hawkeye15
11-22-2013, 02:32 AM
Good post. Maybe the LeBron factor is contributing to lack of "other" superstars in the NBA. Just because he's so much better than everyone else.

I think the main issue is the lack of skilled big men offensively. Wouldn't you agree that big men usually make up most of the most superstar players in the NBA? Throw in a few wings here and there and then add Magic Johnson.

We already have 1 great wing player and could have 2 if Durant can somehow get better and win a title. That's about normal in each generation. We just don't have those 3-4 big men that are all time greats. They aren't there.

no, I think the big man skillset has grown honestly.

Pablonovi
11-22-2013, 02:54 AM
no, I think the big man skillset has grown honestly.

Hey Hawk,
Care to expand a tiny bit (or more); would appreciate hearing your arguments/examples. Now that you say it, it's already beginning to make sense (think: Nowitsky for starters).

P&GRealist
11-22-2013, 03:05 AM
no, I think the big man skillset has grown honestly.

Incorrect.

The skill set has changed, the roles of a big man have changed. It's a tradeoff in skills. Back in the day, big men couldn't shoot jack **** but were still able to maneuver themselves around the paint, convert in the paint, around the basket via drop steps, turn around jump hooks, ability to use the glass etc. Now, most big guys for the most part can't even make a simple jump hook from 5 feet, but they have no issues knocking down the open 15 foot jumper or going beyond the arch and letting it fly.

It hasn't grown, it's just changed. Now, is it for the better? Who knows.

matt800
11-22-2013, 03:07 AM
I think something could be said for attitude and style of play. Maybe it is because of the rules changing over the years, but it doesn't seem like there is nearly as much apparent attitude or passion in the newer players.

Players like Gary Payton, Shawn Kemp, Mutombo, MJ, Rodman, Barkley, and plenty of others carried themselves with an apparent passion, and imposing presence that not many, if any have today. It wasn't just about their skill, the other team had to deal with their personality too. There aren't a lot of distinctive personalities I see on the court in today's game.

Pablonovi
11-22-2013, 03:10 AM
Incorrect.

The skill set has changed, the roles of a big man have changed. It's a tradeoff in skills. Back in the day, big men couldn't shoot jack **** but were still able to maneuver themselves around the paint, convert in the paint, around the basket via drop steps, turn around jump hooks, ability to use the glass etc. Now, most big guys for the most part can't even make a simple jump hook from 5 feet, but they have no issues knocking down the open 15 foot jumper or going beyond the arch and letting it fly.

It hasn't grown, it's just changed. Now, is it for the better? Who knows.

Hey P&GRealist,
Decent points.

btw, on a regular basis, why the heck can't anybody make a hook shot? Kareem's SkyHook was awesome, an ultimate, the ultimate weapon; so why can't anybody even come within a country-mile of regularly attempting-and-making hook shots? Is it just physics; it's just too difficult?

P&GRealist
11-22-2013, 03:14 AM
Hey P&GRealist,
Decent points.

btw, on a regular basis, why the heck can't anybody make a hook shot? Kareem's SkyHook was awesome, an ultimate, the ultimate weapon; so why can't anybody even come within a country-mile of regularly attempting-and-making hook shots? It's just physics; it's just too difficult?

Lack of footwork which causes them to travel all the time, and the fact that it's not a "sexy" move. Big guys these days always want to test their range that they tend to forget the simplest highest percentage shot attempts in the game. Big guys want to be like guards. Handle the shoot the rock like the guards. Big guys these days don't understand simple angles. Also, big guys of today don't like the physicality down on the block and if they do get on the block, their afraid of the defender "pulling the chair" causing a turnover and making them look silly as they fall on their ***. Not much physical contact in pulling up for a 15 foot jumpshot.

ThuglifeJ
11-22-2013, 03:45 AM
I honestly don't think KD would be better than any of those players you mentioned. I agree with OP

Guys were so good in early 2000 it was scary.


The fact most those guys are still playing biggish roles shows a lot imo..back when all the 2000/late 90s batch of talent came in, any past star was getting knocked out of the league asap. Now days you have past stars hanging around YEARS after their primes. Just look at Ray, KG, Marion, Vince, Parker, Kobe, etc.

All still playing..and at starter level (any if them could be starters still, but come off bench). Guys like OJ Mayo should be knocking off old *** past stars from their job, but they aren't. There just not that good. Many old guys probably laugh they can hop on a team and get paychecks. Vince Carter literally lost his dominant abilities 6 years ago. SIX. and he still could start almost anywhere today. Any other era and he retires by 2010. and not hating, love Vince.
And to finalize my point.

DEREK FISHER STILL PLAYS

JayW_1023
11-22-2013, 03:45 AM
^^^ unfortunately, that's the truth.

ThuglifeJ
11-22-2013, 03:49 AM
Lebron, Durant, Chris Paul. Those are our superstars. That's it. There's a lot of other good players. But that's it for superstars.

League has depth tho. No Shawn Bradley's roaming around. No Smush Parkers. That is a positive.

tredigs
11-22-2013, 03:53 AM
Lebron, Durant, Chris Paul. Those are our superstars. That's it. There's a lot of other good players. But that's it for superstars.

League has depth tho. No Shawn Bradley's roaming around. No Smush Parkers. That is a positive.

In what world is a PF who puts up 25/13.5/5 with high end 3pt ability on efficiency not a superstar? And I don't even think he's the leagues best 4.

ThuglifeJ
11-22-2013, 04:09 AM
Lebron, Durant, Chris Paul. Those are our superstars. That's it. There's a lot of other good players. But that's it for superstars.

League has depth tho. No Shawn Bradley's roaming around. No Smush Parkers. That is a positive.

In what world is a PF who puts up 25/13.5/5 with high end 3pt ability on efficiency not a superstar? And I don't even think he's the leagues best 4.

Someone has to put up numbers. He's not doing that vs multiple other superstars. Someone has to be utilized/high usage. There are good good players, but not superstars. The OP has a point. The spurs were a good team but how many young or prime superstars were on that team?

That shouldn't happen.

Dirk and his league average friends shouldnt be able to knock out teams of 'superstars' if they're superstars.

Bron, Durant , cp3 get star status in last two era standards. No others do. Paul George and Harden don't sniff ESPN limelight if there's prime kobe, Tmac, Iverson, etc

tredigs
11-22-2013, 04:24 AM
Someone has to put up numbers. He's not doing that vs multiple other superstars. Someone has to be utilized/high usage. There are good good players, but not superstars. The OP has a point. The spurs were a good team but how many young or prime superstars were on that team?

That shouldn't happen.

Dirk and his league average friends shouldnt be able to knock out teams of 'superstars' if they're superstars.

Bron, Durant , cp3 get star status in last two era standards. No others do. Paul George and Harden don't sniff ESPN limelight if there's prime kobe, Tmac, Iverson, etc

Someone has to put up 20/10+ with 2stls/4blks and a 30 PER? How come nobody ever has?

Edit: Responded concerning AD, but same goes with Love. His level of play isn't something anybody *has* to put up. It's dominance offensively, pure and simple. You don't see it in every era, if any.

tredigs
11-22-2013, 04:27 AM
What we're seeing from Love, KD, Curry, Lebron, AD and CP3 is among the best ever at their respective talents. The league is in an age where the old stars are winding down and the new stars are coming up (save for a few peak HOFers), but there is far from a shortage of talent/dominance. SG and C are still a bit light, but at PG/SF/PF it is as elite as ever.

thekmp211
11-22-2013, 11:11 AM
no, quite the opposite in fact.

wowzah
11-22-2013, 11:45 AM
I honestly don't think KD would be better than any of those players you mentioned. I agree with OP

Guys were so good in early 2000 it was scary.


The fact most those guys are still playing biggish roles shows a lot imo..back when all the 2000/late 90s batch of talent came in, any past star was getting knocked out of the league asap. Now days you have past stars hanging around YEARS after their primes. Just look at Ray, KG, Marion, Vince, Parker, Kobe, etc.

All still playing..and at starter level (any if them could be starters still, but come off bench). Guys like OJ Mayo should be knocking off old *** past stars from their job, but they aren't. There just not that good. Many old guys probably laugh they can hop on a team and get paychecks. Vince Carter literally lost his dominant abilities 6 years ago. SIX. and he still could start almost anywhere today. Any other era and he retires by 2010. and not hating, love Vince.
And to finalize my point.

DEREK FISHER STILL PLAYS

Good point. And I'm suprised nobody responded. If the league is so strong today why are the guys in their mid 30s still holding it down. And holding it down real damn hard over the young guys. Dirk just raped the league in 2011, the guy was 34 years old. Duncan took the NBA to the brink at 37. Kobe is still balling.

wowzah
11-22-2013, 11:47 AM
Lack of footwork which causes them to travel all the time, and the fact that it's not a "sexy" move. Big guys these days always want to test their range that they tend to forget the simplest highest percentage shot attempts in the game. Big guys want to be like guards. Handle the shoot the rock like the guards. Big guys these days don't understand simple angles. Also, big guys of today don't like the physicality down on the block and if they do get on the block, their afraid of the defender "pulling the chair" causing a turnover and making them look silly as they fall on their ***. Not much physical contact in pulling up for a 15 foot jumpshot.

It's not cool at all to play post basketball. I remember when I told one of my friends that Duncan was one of my favorite players. He said "Dude you like a big man". Like I had just robbed a bank. It was all about Melo, Kobe, McGrady, Iverson with him. Everybody wants to be a wing player, ISO and look cool. By the way, it does look cool. So I guess that has something to do with it.

KnickaBocka.44
11-22-2013, 12:23 PM
I honestly don't think KD would be better than any of those players you mentioned. I agree with OP

Guys were so good in early 2000 it was scary.


The fact most those guys are still playing biggish roles shows a lot imo..back when all the 2000/late 90s batch of talent came in, any past star was getting knocked out of the league asap. Now days you have past stars hanging around YEARS after their primes. Just look at Ray, KG, Marion, Vince, Parker, Kobe, etc.

All still playing..and at starter level (any if them could be starters still, but come off bench). Guys like OJ Mayo should be knocking off old *** past stars from their job, but they aren't. There just not that good. Many old guys probably laugh they can hop on a team and get paychecks. Vince Carter literally lost his dominant abilities 6 years ago. SIX. and he still could start almost anywhere today. Any other era and he retires by 2010. and not hating, love Vince.
And to finalize my point.

DEREK FISHER STILL PLAYS

That says more about the improvements in medicine and training regiments to keep these guys performing better, longer than it does about talent between generations.

Alayla
11-22-2013, 02:16 PM
Is this the weakest the NBA has been since post MJ Bulls?

There is only 1 truly great player right now. And Durant is the only real challenge to him. That's about it. You have LeBron and then Durant who's a very formidable player, but then after that it's just horrible. Maybe Kevin Love is pretty decent, but his games doesn't translate to victories and he plays no defense.

You used to have Shaq, Kobe, Wade, Duncan, Garnett, Dirk and then a bunch of high volume scorers like McGrady, Iverson, Carter. They were not championship level players, but still pretty good and probably were held back by the fact that the former group was just that good.

All these guys are old now. Duncan outlasted them all and gave it one last right last year, but he looks like he's finally ready for the drop off. He's been on the dip for a while now though.

Really I think it's because there aren't any good big men at all these days. We still have 2 really good wing players, but no guys inside. LeBron is actually a good big man. I think when he plays PF like last year his game reaches it's full potential, but I digress.

I'm ignoring Paul and Parker because they are like 6'. I'm sorry, but I'm not putting my championship hopes on the shoulders of minions.

Clearly has never Heard of Chris Paul

Alayla
11-22-2013, 02:18 PM
He's a great PG no doubt, but he's just too small. He hasn't been able to carry his teams in the postseason. I don't see greatness there.

.... So both Kevin Love and Chris Paul are not great players because there TEAM isn't winning enough for your liking.. do you realize you dumb that sounds.

Alayla
11-22-2013, 02:20 PM
I know this is just one way of looking at it, and very random, incomplete and won't appeal to everyone. But whatever. It paints some picture.

Last year's top 10 WS/48 players.

James - .322
Durant - .291
Paul - .287
Chandler - .207
Parker - .206
Harden - .206
Gasol - .197
Griffin - .196
RWB - .195
Wade - .192


10 years ago, 2003

T-Mac - .262
Shaq - .250
Dirk - .249
Duncan - .248
KG - .225
Kobe - .210
Nash - .206
Billups - .204
Brad Miller - .202
AK47 - .202

20 years ago, 1993

MJ - .270
Barkley - .242
Malone - .238
Hakeem - .234
Dougherty - .226
Admiral - .197
Price - .197
Nique - .191
Nance - .187
Reggie - .183


Doesn't look to bad. We can romanticize with the past plenty, but there is A LOT of greatness unraveling right before our eyes right now :shrug: If we add Love, Davis, Paul George, Steph, etc. to that picture and it looks even better.

This guy gets it

Alayla
11-22-2013, 02:23 PM
I'm still going to have to disagree. If 37 year old Duncan can take the NBA to the brink then it does not add up. I know it can never be done, but put prime Kobe, Shaq, Garnett, etc. on neutral teams and have them match up against Durant, Paul, George, Curry and it's going to look ugly IMO.

Are you trying to Aruge that duncan was the sole reason the spurs got so far? I guess Tony Parker Doesnt exist anymore and more to the point What about Jordan at the same Age? are you going to tell me the NBA was weak during jordans last couple runs

Alayla
11-22-2013, 02:26 PM
Do you feel that the stars of today outside of LeBron stack up to the stars of just a little while ago?

That isnt the point He dont need STARS for the NBA to be strong Right now i would say that there is Awesome talent on every single team in the league right now and thats not something i could have said even as short as 10 years ago.

donovanmcnabb
11-22-2013, 02:27 PM
PG Paul
SG Wade
SF Kevin Durant
PF LeBron James
C Dwight Howard

6: Harden

v

PG Kidd
SG Kobe
SF Pierce
PF Duncan
C Shaq

6: T-Mac

which starting 5 would you take?

those rosters seem about right?

Heediot
11-22-2013, 02:27 PM
NBA was pretty weak after Shaq won a title with the Heat. Probably 2007, Shaq was on the decline, and LBJ was just entering his 3rd season. There was still Timmy, Kobe, and KG. It's hard to gauge when the NBA is weakest, every generation has spots where the talent isn't at its peak.

Heediot
11-22-2013, 02:29 PM
PG Paul
SG Wade
SF Kevin Durant
PF LeBron James
C Dwight Howard

v

PG Kidd
SG Kobe
SF Pierce
PF Duncan
C Shaq

which starting 5 would you take?

those rosters seem about right?

Team two would kill them down low, and they have better defenders.

Alayla
11-22-2013, 02:35 PM
NBA isn't weak, you just have to except new stars besides James, Durant, Paul and Carmelo.

Kevin Love
Paul George
James Harden
Anthony Davis
Curry
Russell Westbrook
Blake Griffin
LaMarcus ALdridge
Rose
Kyrie Irving
Damian Lillard

Fixed

Alayla
11-22-2013, 02:48 PM
Good point. And I'm suprised nobody responded. If the league is so strong today why are the guys in their mid 30s still holding it down. And holding it down real damn hard over the young guys. Dirk just raped the league in 2011, the guy was 34 years old. Duncan took the NBA to the brink at 37. Kobe is still balling.

That isnt a sign of the league getting weaker its those guys taking care of there bodys on the Flip Side you have guys like Tmac Iverson Marbury Francis Michael Redd and Ming who where Huge stars and there not even in the nba anymore. You cant just look at it so baisedly

and i DARE you go start up NBA Live 2003 and tell me how many old guys where still clear cut stars or starters
Jordan Malone Payton Stockton Hakkem David Robinson was even still a big factor on his team. and thats just off the top of my head

Hawkeye15
11-22-2013, 02:49 PM
Hey Hawk,
Care to expand a tiny bit (or more); would appreciate hearing your arguments/examples. Now that you say it, it's already beginning to make sense (think: Nowitsky for starters).

sure. Big men now are better all around players. The post dominance is not there like it used to be. But they are better ball handlers, passers, play better away from the rim and in all systems, and all around basketball players. There are plenty of ELITE defensive bigs in the game, that impact a game just by being there.

The whole notion that big men are lesser now because there isn't a good number of post scorers is false.

Pablonovi
11-22-2013, 05:35 PM
sure. Big men now are better all around players. The post dominance is not there like it used to be. But they are better ball handlers, passers, play better away from the rim and in all systems, and all around basketball players. There are plenty of ELITE defensive bigs in the game, that impact a game just by being there.

The whole notion that big men are lesser now because there isn't a good number of post scorers is false.

Hey Hawk,
Thanx. You make a good multiple-aspects case.

RulerSlick
11-22-2013, 05:35 PM
no..actually quitethe opposite IMO. It's just lebron is on another level to the point that Durant's historic season from last year was better than any Kobe season (IMO) looked ehh in comparison

jstone0716
11-22-2013, 06:25 PM
Players come and go dude. We have a lot of young stars in this league that in 10 years will be looked upon like your Kobes/Shaqs/Duncans/Dirks/Garnetts. I really don't see were you're coming from... when Kobe/Dirk came into the league they were no bodies. It was for a good 3-4 years until they really emerged a what another 2-3 years before they became greats? Paul George? Steph Curry? Kevin Love? James Harden? Anthony Davis? Andre Drummond? Bradley Beal? Ring a bell at all? I can go on.. and that's not to mention the older guys on this era.. Wade/LeBron/CP3/Durant etc.

To be honest I think we have more quality talent in the league that we had back in the 2000 era

Pablonovi
11-22-2013, 06:41 PM
Reflecting back over longer periods of NBA history; imo, it becomes crystal clear that this is far from THE weakest or one of the weakest eras. This should be easy to see/recognize.
1) The ABA 9 year period DEFINITELY produced a much-weaker NBA; how could it be otherwise. Conversely, if the average number of top-quality pro players was the same during that period as in other periods, then both leagues taken together were weak, because it was the same number spread over (several) more teams.

likewise:
2) Any expansion-era of the NBA. You get an immediate increase in teams with no (possible, magical) increase in top-quality players; thus, watered down, weaker NBA. Notice that it is virtually always at or soon after expansion that the NBA produces some of its outliers: greatest season by team, greatest season by player.

conversely,
3) The NBA has NOT added a new team in over 10 years; meanwhile the NBA's "talent pool" continues to expand: quantitatively (it is more a world sport than ever); qualitatively, with a vastly expanded, and ever greater number of wanna-bes, the competition to get one of the 425 or so spots is higher, more intense than ever. Logically, this argues for improved quality NOT the reverse.

4) Lastly, sports-medicine/therapy/training is far advanced over past eras. THAT's why we're seeing longer careers: NOT because the newer guys aren't good enough to force out the older ones; but because the older ones can have extended careers and stay in competition for the spots longer.

All told (and I'm sure I've left off other strong arguments), on a theoretical basis alone (that is, without really analyzing the current level of play) the NBA should be going thru one of, if not THE, best eras ever. And, I think most fans would agree based on non-theoretical factors ... i.e., the eye-test. The athletes ARE as good or better conditioned and skilled, the play is too.

JEDean89
11-22-2013, 08:06 PM
I gotta say Ty Lawson needs to start getting some love. I mean, I know the Nuggets haven't been great this year but its a rookie coach implementing a new system to new players. Gallo is their best wing player and he's out, they will be a playoff team when he's healthy. Ty is averaging 21 points, 8.5 assists and 4.3 rebounds at 5'11", if this dude was 6'3", he would probably be the best pg in the league. He is also doing this without his best wing player and his easiest lob assist partner in Javale. Just saying, he's all star material, the Nuggs haven't had an allstar since Melo despite going to 3 straight playoffs. If Ty can keep this up, he should be an allstar, its just so damn tough in the West to be an allstar guard.

Heediot
11-22-2013, 09:23 PM
sure. Big men now are better all around players. The post dominance is not there like it used to be. But they are better ball handlers, passers, play better away from the rim and in all systems, and all around basketball players. There are plenty of ELITE defensive bigs in the game, that impact a game just by being there.

The whole notion that big men are lesser now because there isn't a good number of post scorers is false.

The PF's today are more skilled compared to the past but not the true 5's. Guys like Duncan, KG, Bosh, A. Davis would be PFs in past generations. Duncan would be the only guy that can come off as something remotely close to a true 5 out of that group. HIbbert, Marc Gasol, Lopez are not more skilled then Hakeen, DRob, Ewing, Zo, Daughtery.

Hawkeye15
11-22-2013, 09:44 PM
The PF's today are more skilled compared to the past but not the true 5's. Guys like Duncan, KG, Bosh, A. Davis would be PFs in past generations. Duncan would be the only guy that can come off as something remotely close to a true 5 out of that group. HIbbert, Marc Gasol, Lopez are not more skilled then Hakeen, DRob, Ewing, Zo, Daughtery.

because the game has become hybrid. No longer do the PG's score 12 ppg. No longer are the roles so defined. Big men are big men, and have roles. You need more skillsets now.

Hawkeye15
11-22-2013, 09:45 PM
Reflecting back over longer periods of NBA history; imo, it becomes crystal clear that this is far from THE weakest or one of the weakest eras. This should be easy to see/recognize.
1) The ABA 9 year period DEFINITELY produced a much-weaker NBA; how could it be otherwise. Conversely, if the average number of top-quality pro players was the same during that period as in other periods, then both leagues taken together were weak, because it was the same number spread over (several) more teams.

likewise:
2) Any expansion-era of the NBA. You get an immediate increase in teams with no (possible, magical) increase in top-quality players; thus, watered down, weaker NBA. Notice that it is virtually always at or soon after expansion that the NBA produces some of its outliers: greatest season by team, greatest season by player.

conversely,
3) The NBA has NOT added a new team in over 10 years; meanwhile the NBA's "talent pool" continues to expand: quantitatively (it is more a world sport than ever); qualitatively, with a vastly expanded, and ever greater number of wanna-bes, the competition to get one of the 425 or so spots is higher, more intense than ever. Logically, this argues for improved quality NOT the reverse.

4) Lastly, sports-medicine/therapy/training is far advanced over past eras. THAT's why we're seeing longer careers: NOT because the newer guys aren't good enough to force out the older ones; but because the older ones can have extended careers and stay in competition for the spots longer.

All told (and I'm sure I've left off other strong arguments), on a theoretical basis alone (that is, without really analyzing the current level of play) the NBA should be going thru one of, if not THE, best eras ever. And, I think most fans would agree based on non-theoretical factors ... i.e., the eye-test. The athletes ARE as good or better conditioned and skilled, the play is too.

no expansion since before the MJ dominance, but the euro's have invaded, increasing the talent pool. The NBA will continue to produce better basketball players as long as it exists. That is the evolution of sports.

Jenceman
11-22-2013, 10:10 PM
1. Duncan wasn't the best player on his team last year, and the team was much more than just him. It was a great TEAM. Duncan was a part of that team, a big one, but come on.
2. He was better last year than he was in 2006 :shrug: Let's not pretend like he was a bad player. He was 36-37, sure, but still really, really good.


And league parity is great! We have a good amount of it now, and have for quite some time. That's a big reason why many feel we've had some great seasons lately. The Heat are the best team, but they haven't been steam-rolling teams, at all.

Uhm, parity? There's like 10 teams that came into the season purposely trying to lose games. The NBA product is almost broken.

Heediot
11-23-2013, 05:06 AM
because the game has become hybrid. No longer do the PG's score 12 ppg. No longer are the roles so defined. Big men are big men, and have roles. You need more skillsets now.

Yeah the rule changes are effecting perception. I think the new rules especially the zone allow for more positional flexibility. Big man defense is more about IQ and positioning than in the past. There are good man defenders nowadays, but perception can be skewered as the lack of dominant post players is also less. I personally don`t think there are as many dominant man defending bigs as the past. Not many guys where you think twice about low block isolations.

Heediot
11-23-2013, 05:12 AM
no expansion since before the MJ dominance, but the euro's have invaded, increasing the talent pool. The NBA will continue to produce better basketball players as long as it exists. That is the evolution of sports.

I agree about athletes getting faster and stronger through evolution but what happened to the back to the basket dominant players.

chipurmunki
11-23-2013, 05:33 AM
what do you mean by 'in a while'? like since the nineties when basketball was a real man's sport and your 'star player' wasn't the flopping champion? the nba is very weak, and will continue to get weaker.

sports is supposed to be pure social darwinism, not lebron whining to the zebras, 'wah, this 150lb pipsqueak bowled me over... wahwahwah!' give me a malone-tripping-rodman-who-trips-malone fiasco any time, instead of this primadonna pussyfooting.

KingstonHawke
11-23-2013, 09:55 AM
Some of yall are just ridiculous. Everyone wants to pretend that things were better in the past. It's probably 80 year old dudes out there swearing that the 50s was the best because they didn't carry the basketball and shoot 3s. The league is WAY better now than it was then. The problem is when you have so much talent, it's harder to dominate (which should be a good thing).

Magic was the flat out best of his era. Put him against Lebron, and he get's washed. It wouldn't even be competitive. That should tell you a lot about the evolution of the game as a whole.

ManRam
11-23-2013, 12:06 PM
Uhm, parity? There's like 10 teams that came into the season purposely trying to lose games. The NBA product is almost broken.

The league has 30 teams, so obviously there are going to be more bad teams than ever before.


In the 60s, the Celtics won every championship but 1.
In the 70s, the ABA helped thin out the talent a little, and we probably had the most parity ever
In the 80s, the Lakers won 5, the C's won 3 times and the 76ers 1.
In the 90s, The Pistons, Bulls and Rockets dominated, the Spurs started their dynasty
In the 00s, We had 5 different winners, the Lakers and Spurs the only "dynasties"
We've already had three different winners in the 10s, and probably 4 different after this season.

Yes, the bottom is chalk full of awful teams, but that's in part due to those teams actually being smart and not settling for mediocrity. But at the top, there's still a ton of parity. The Heat are as much of a dynasty as we have, but they haven't cake-walked to a championship once. There are a lot of great contenders at the past.


We've had 6 different championship teams over the last 12 years. Before LA's threepeat, we had 6 different winners over a 17 year span.

I stand by my point :shrug: Parity in the 80s and the 90s wasn't a thing.

chipurmunki
11-23-2013, 11:16 PM
Some of yall are just ridiculous. Everyone wants to pretend that things were better in the past. It's probably 80 year old dudes out there swearing that the 50s was the best because they didn't carry the basketball and shoot 3s. The league is WAY better now than it was then. The problem is when you have so much talent, it's harder to dominate (which should be a good thing).

Magic was the flat out best of his era. Put him against Lebron, and he get's washed. It wouldn't even be competitive. That should tell you a lot about the evolution of the game as a whole.

right, put every naysayer together and make up some absurd generalization to make your charade of a view seem more relevant.

keep pounding sand.