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VikesTwinsWolve
11-14-2013, 10:18 AM
Who would you rather have then Kevin Love and why?

D-Leethal
11-14-2013, 10:20 AM
For one year? Or starting a franchise for the future?

NYKnickFanatic
11-14-2013, 10:21 AM
DRose, Steph Curry.

chi-townlove1
11-14-2013, 10:23 AM
I just did this like a week ago regarding paul George. I really like love. But I have a handful of players I would take before love when starting a franchise.


Lebron
Durant
Rose
Curry
George
Irving
Lillard
Maybe Rubio

Hawkeye15
11-14-2013, 10:25 AM
through 9 games? Chris Paul is the only other player I would take this year. Long season, lets see what happens...

b@llhog24
11-14-2013, 10:28 AM
Lma.

NYKnickFanatic
11-14-2013, 10:37 AM
through 9 games? Chris Paul is the only other player I would take this year. Long season, lets see what happens...

Forgot all about CP3. :pity:

NYKnickFanatic
11-14-2013, 10:39 AM
I just did this like a week ago regarding paul George. I really like love. But I have a handful of players I would take before love when starting a franchise.


Lebron
Durant
Rose
Curry
George
Irving
Lillard
Maybe Rubio

He said OUTSIDE OF LEBRON AND DURANT.

And you rather take Lillard and Rubio over Love?

b@llhog24
11-14-2013, 10:44 AM
Cp3, Irving, Curry, AD, Dwight (if he ever gets healthy again), maybe Harden.

Swashcuff
11-14-2013, 11:05 AM
through 9 games? Chris Paul is the only other player I would take this year. Long season, lets see what happens...

Exactly this.

donovanmcnabb
11-14-2013, 11:27 AM
anthony davis, rose, westbrook and george

donovanmcnabb
11-14-2013, 11:38 AM
Davis over love because i like my big men to play D. Also, The Brow is a top nickname.
Rose over Love because Rose appears to be the perfect game changer. Also is supremely athletic.
Westbrook over Love because of Westbrook's passion and talent. I do not think the dude has hit his potential yet.
George over Love because George can fill a box score while playing legitimate defense.

CostanzaNumba0
11-14-2013, 11:58 AM
Davis over love because i like my big men to play D. Also, The Brow is a top nickname.
Rose over Love because Rose appears to be the perfect game changer. Also is supremely athletic.
Westbrook over Love because of Westbrook's passion and talent. I do not think the dude has hit his potential yet.
George over Love because George can fill a box score while playing legitimate defense.
Rose is the most overrated player in the nba. Love beats him or ties him in every important advanced metric.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
11-14-2013, 12:02 PM
Derek Rows

FlashBolt
11-14-2013, 12:13 PM
No one. Love is a damn beast this year. I'd take Paul - MAYBE!

wowzah
11-14-2013, 12:41 PM
Who do I want in playoff series? Because that is the only thing that matters.

After LeBron and Durant I would take Parker or Duncan. I'm serious. For 7 games. Nobody else.

PhillySportFan
11-14-2013, 02:30 PM
Davis over love because i like my big men to play D. Also, The Brow is a top nickname.
Rose over Love because Rose appears to be the perfect game changer. Also is supremely athletic.
Westbrook over Love because of Westbrook's passion and talent. I do not think the dude has hit his potential yet.
George over Love because George can fill a box score while playing legitimate defense.
Donovan Mcnabb really? Lol

todu82
11-14-2013, 02:39 PM
Chris Paul.

Bruno
11-14-2013, 02:49 PM
Paul, Davis , Curry and Paul George are the only other players in the discussion at the moment. Lopez has been statistically brilliant as well.

Bruno
11-14-2013, 02:56 PM
Minny is 6-3 with the third best SRS in the NBA. Love is leading the NBA in PER, WS and WS/48. he is the leagues MVP right now for '13-'14.

Hawkeye15
11-14-2013, 03:02 PM
Cp3, Irving, Curry, AD, Dwight (if he ever gets healthy again), maybe Harden.

have you been paying attention to Love this season? No way you put Irving, Curry, Dwight, or Harden over him. Davis is playing exceptional, but Love is not only matching him and then some, he at least has a track record.

27.1-14.7-5.1 while leading the league in win shares, PER, WS/48, and all sorts of categories.

Honestly, nobody is playing better than Love right now, but you can't ignore LeBron ahd Durant's supremacy over the league, and Paul has started out great as well.

Bruno
11-14-2013, 03:17 PM
have you been paying attention to Love this season? No way you put Irving, Curry, Dwight, or Harden over him. Davis is playing exceptional, but Love is not only matching him and then some, he at least has a track record.

27.1-14.7-5.1 while leading the league in win shares, PER, WS/48, and all sorts of categories.

Honestly, nobody is playing better than Love right now, but you can't ignore LeBron ahd Durant's supremacy over the league, and Paul has started out great as well.
Harden and Irving have the talent but in terms of production thus far they're not on loves level. only davis cp3, curry, Durant, Paul George and LBJ are up there. but love has been better than all of them.

dwight is no where close to being in the discussion. his numbers are worse than they were last year and his team isn't a top ten defensive team.

ztilzer31
11-14-2013, 03:18 PM
have you been paying attention to Love this season? No way you put Irving, Curry, Dwight, or Harden over him. Davis is playing exceptional, but Love is not only matching him and then some, he at least has a track record.

27.1-14.7-5.1 while leading the league in win shares, PER, WS/48, and all sorts of categories.

Honestly, nobody is playing better than Love right now, but you can't ignore LeBron ahd Durant's supremacy over the league, and Paul has started out great as well.

I really like Kevin Love, but I have to disagree. Plenty of players that might not have the stats that Love have, but play significantly better defense.

I don't see why people in this form only credit one side of the ball.

Bruno
11-14-2013, 03:21 PM
I really like Kevin Love, but I have to disagree. Plenty of players that might not have the stats that Love have, but play significantly better defense.

I don't see why people in this form only credit one side of the ball.

loves defense is fine. his wolves are 6th in the NBA in defensive rating and he's leading the team in defensive win-shares (7th in the NBA overall); he's second to Rubio in defensive rating. you're preaching an old myth here.

Hawkeye15
11-14-2013, 03:37 PM
I really like Kevin Love, but I have to disagree. Plenty of players that might not have the stats that Love have, but play significantly better defense.

I don't see why people in this form only credit one side of the ball.

His defense has been just fine this season. That, along with him improved passing, is where he has evolved even further. He is a better than average defender at this point, and has become the ultimate stretch 4 in the game, while being one its best rebounders and scorers.

Hawkeye15
11-14-2013, 03:38 PM
loves defense is fine. his wolves are 6th in the NBA in defensive rating and he's leading the team in defensive win-shares (7th in the NBA overall); he's second to Rubio in defensive rating. you're preaching an old myth here.

being a poor defender is tough to shake, reputation wise. Always has been. But Love is not a bad defender, hasn't been for a couple of healthy seasons now.

JEDean89
11-14-2013, 03:39 PM
The fact that Anthony Davis is 20, putting up 22 and 11 on 48% shooting and 87% at the line, has a PER of 30 and is probably the best defensive player in the game makes me go with him atm. Seriously, the Pelicans messed up, they could have drafted a few pieces around him before making the big trades and FA signings. I think Davis is a player we really haven't seen in the NBA. He's way better than KG was in his second year, has a very high offensive ceiling but it's his defense, the 3 blocks and 2 steals that is really unfathomable at age 20.

Bruno
11-14-2013, 03:52 PM
His defense has been just fine this season. That, along with him improved passing, is where he has evolved even further. He is a better than average defender at this point, and has become the ultimate stretch 4 in the game, while being one its best rebounders and scorers. totally. and what about that outlet passing? Kevin Love is averaging 5 assists per game.


being a poor defender is tough to shake, reputation wise. Always has been. But Love is not a bad defender, hasn't been for a couple of healthy seasons now.
he's a fine defender. its another NBA myth.


The fact that Anthony Davis is 20, putting up 22 and 11 on 48% shooting and 87% at the line, has a PER of 30 and is probably the best defensive player in the game makes me go with him atm. Seriously, the Pelicans messed up, they could have drafted a few pieces around him before making the big trades and FA signings. I think Davis is a player we really haven't seen in the NBA. He's way better than KG was in his second year, has a very high offensive ceiling but it's his defense, the 3 blocks and 2 steals that is really unfathomable at age 20.
Davis has been a monster. amazing.

Swashcuff
11-14-2013, 05:41 PM
have you been paying attention to Love this season? No way you put Irving, Curry, Dwight, or Harden over him. Davis is playing exceptional, but Love is not only matching him and then some, he at least has a track record.

27.1-14.7-5.1 while leading the league in win shares, PER, WS/48, and all sorts of categories.

Honestly, nobody is playing better than Love right now, but you can't ignore LeBron ahd Durant's supremacy over the league, and Paul has started out great as well.

Dwight and Harden play for the same team and they're extremely underwhelming.

ztilzer31
11-14-2013, 05:52 PM
Defensive rating is not a very accurate stat. Especially when the players have only played for a limited amount of games. Defense is something that is very hard to make a statistic for in ANY sport.

I haven't seen him play much this year, but if you say he's improved I'll take your word for it.

b@llhog24
11-14-2013, 05:58 PM
Cp3, Irving, Curry, AD, Dwight (if he ever gets healthy again), maybe Harden.

have you been paying attention to Love this season? No way you put Irving, Curry, Dwight, or Harden over him. Davis is playing exceptional, but Love is not only matching him and then some, he at least has a track record.

27.1-14.7-5.1 while leading the league in win shares, PER, WS/48, and all sorts of categories.

Honestly, nobody is playing better than Love right now, but you can't ignore LeBron ahd Durant's supremacy over the league, and Paul has started out great as well.

Nah haven't caught any TWolves game but his stats do look drool worthy from what I can see. However; I was basing my opinion on a myriad of factors and not just so far cause Kyrie has been playing like ****.

tredigs
11-14-2013, 06:25 PM
have you been paying attention to Love this season? No way you put Irving, Curry, Dwight, or Harden over him. Davis is playing exceptional, but Love is not only matching him and then some, he at least has a track record.

27.1-14.7-5.1 while leading the league in win shares, PER, WS/48, and all sorts of categories.

Honestly, nobody is playing better than Love right now, but you can't ignore LeBron ahd Durant's supremacy over the league, and Paul has started out great as well.
Curry has been pretty incredible. His per game #'s aren't as potent because he left early in the Wolves game and hasn't played a few 4th quarter blowouts but per-36 he's at 24/4/10 on 50/45/95 and WS/48 of .293. He's been dominating.

/homer defense.

PG, Paul, AD, Curry, KD, Bron, Love. Guys like Griffin and Lopez have been great as well. Those are the best to open the year, but there's no denying that Love is torching. Fun to watch them right now.

ClearSoulForce
11-14-2013, 06:32 PM
Don;t understand how people value these 7 games from Love over Dirk's entire career. Love is better than Dirk all time according to everyone.

Also don't understand how Dirk is called a bad defender his whole career but Love is all of a sudden a great defender.

tredigs
11-14-2013, 06:36 PM
Don;t understand how people value these 7 games from Love over Dirk's entire career. Love is better than Dirk all time according to everyone.

Also don't understand how Dirk is called a bad defender his whole career but Love is all of a sudden a great defender.
Because this isn't a career ranking and Dirk is 35 years old and clearly been passed?

Bruno
11-14-2013, 07:02 PM
Defensive rating is not a very accurate stat. Especially when the players have only played for a limited amount of games. Defense is something that is very hard to make a statistic for in ANY sport.

I haven't seen him play much this year, but if you say he's improved I'll take your word for it.

what's innacurate about it?

i referenced his advanced line but he's matched the eye test as well. he's a fine defender, I've had the chance to catch four or five Wolves games this year. he's no liability.

Bruno
11-14-2013, 07:03 PM
Don;t understand how people value these 7 games from Love over Dirk's entire career. Love is better than Dirk all time according to everyone.

Also don't understand how Dirk is called a bad defender his whole career but Love is all of a sudden a great defender.

love has a long way to go before touching dirk in an all time sense- i haven't seen a single poster argue that and probably shouldn't for at least four or five years. but love currently produces at a level that far surpasses Dirk, and he can handle a heavier load in terms of total team responsibilities and minutes per game. Last five minutes of a game seven? a lot of people might still take dirk. but that doesn't make him better overall right now.

Bruno
11-14-2013, 07:06 PM
Curry has been pretty incredible. His per game #'s aren't as potent because he left early in the Wolves game and hasn't played a few 4th quarter blowouts but per-36 he's at 24/4/10 on 50/45/95 and WS/48 of .293. He's been dominating.

/homer defense.

PG, Paul, AD, Curry, KD, Bron, Love. Guys like Griffin and Lopez have been great as well. Those are the best to open the year, but there's no denying that Love is torching. Fun to watch them right now.

Currys been great as well. so many ballers and some-what fresh faces in the NBA. its make the transition out of 90's draftee league dominance a bit easier to take. i'm really liking a lot of 26 and under talent in the league right now and think the changing of the guard is going well. i think well look back on this year and maybe last year as transition years a decade from now.

beliges
11-14-2013, 07:10 PM
CP3 and Paul George for one. They are both right up there with LBJ and Durant this season and will be from now on I believe.

iliketurtles24
11-14-2013, 07:10 PM
Paul... and of course JJ (Michael Jordan) Berea

tredigs
11-14-2013, 07:11 PM
Currys been great as well. so many ballers and some-what fresh faces in the NBA. its make the transition out of 90's draftee league dominance a bit easier to take. i'm really liking a lot of 26 and under talent in the league right now and think the changing of the guard is going well. i think well look back on this year and maybe last year as transition years a decade from now.

No doubt, it's awesome. Especially with this young crop coming in next year.

jerellh528
11-14-2013, 07:14 PM
for this year only, cp3. going forward? davis, maybe curry.

IKnowHoops
11-14-2013, 07:18 PM
I'd have to watch a lot of film first of all the players. Love is a great player as the Man on the T-wolves. He looked like a fish out of water at times on the olympic team. But you can't deny his numbers (not the cologne). Love may be my pick after Lebron and Durant. The guys I would want compare film to would be...

George
Harden
Kyrie
Curry
Blake (I know love is better, but Blake still has a lot he can get better at)

I doubt I would take Curry or Kyrie, but George is a definite possibility. Harden and Blake are on the ehhhhhh side of things.

Miltstar
11-14-2013, 07:21 PM
Anthony Davis is the only one, he beasts on both sides of the ball!!

Kyben36
11-14-2013, 07:28 PM
I love Kevin Love, but Kevin Love just to me isnt a #1, he is a Jump shooting big man who rebounds great, but doesnt really have a go to type of offense. he is a great player, but there are so many others out there who i would take before him who can create offesne to start a franchise.

No particular order

D rose , Russle Westbrook, Hardin, Pual, Willaims, George, Curry ( under rated) Kyrie, Blake, Melo, Aldridge, Horford (severly under rated) Wall, Hibbert, ( under rated), Blake , Anthony Davis, Demarcus Cousin (severly under rated) and my final name which i know im going to get beat for, Eric Bledsoe

Im not trying to under value loves game, but love has proven year in and year out he isnt a capable enough player to lead a team to the playoffs. he is going to be a great #2 to wherever he goes, but he cant lead a team, so i cant take him #3,

jerellh528
11-14-2013, 07:32 PM
I'd have to watch a lot of film first of all the players. Love is a great player as the Man on the T-wolves. He looked like a fish out of water at times on the olympic team. But you can't deny his numbers (not the cologne). Love may be my pick after Lebron and Durant. The guys I would want compare film to would be...

George
Harden
Kyrie
Curry
Blake (I know love is better, but Blake still has a lot he can get better at)

I doubt I would take Curry or Kyrie, but George is a definite possibility. Harden and Blake are on the ehhhhhh side of things.

:laugh: lol dude, but you seem like the biggest owner of pseudo basketball knowledge of this site. Especially with a name like yours and statements like these, its comical to me.. sorry. but back to topic,
harden, kyrie and blake over love? I just don't see it. Love also has lots of room to improve, he's not even a year older than griffin.

jerellh528
11-14-2013, 07:36 PM
I love Kevin Love, but Kevin Love just to me isnt a #1, he is a Jump shooting big man who rebounds great, but doesnt really have a go to type of offense. he is a great player, but there are so many others out there who i would take before him who can create offesne to start a franchise.

No particular order

D rose, Russle Westbrook, Hardin, Paul, Willaims,George, Curry( under rated) Kyrie, Blake, Melo, Aldridge, Horford (severly under rated) Wall, Hibbert, ( under rated), Blake , Anthony Davis, Demarcus Cousin (severly under rated) and my final name which i know im going to get beat for, Eric Bledsoe

Im not trying to under value loves game, but love has proven year in and year out he isnt a capable enough player to lead a team to the playoffs. he is going to be a great #2 to wherever he goes, but he cant lead a team, so i cant take him #3,

The guys in bold are the only ones you listed whom I feel can actually be a successful, true #1

Red_Pill
11-14-2013, 07:49 PM
Why is everyone mentioning Curry? Dude can shoot extremely well, but what else is he good for? Outside of his shooting, he hasn't impressed me too much. Not to mention those ankles...

As to answer the question...

At this point, I think only Cp3 has been more valuable.

Paul George is another consideration, however, I'd like to see George put up these numbers for a whole season. Lov

Otherwise, I think Love has been a top 5 player this year.

tredigs
11-14-2013, 08:39 PM
Why is everyone mentioning Curry? Dude can shoot extremely well, but what else is he good for? Outside of his shooting, he hasn't impressed me too much. Not to mention those ankles...

As to answer the question...

At this point, I think only Cp3 has been more valuable.

Paul George is another consideration, however, I'd like to see George put up these numbers for a whole season. Lov

Otherwise, I think Love has been a top 5 player this year.

Good point. Curry might as well be Matt Bonner out there. All the dude can do is shoot good.

Hawkeye15
11-14-2013, 08:41 PM
Don;t understand how people value these 7 games from Love over Dirk's entire career. Love is better than Dirk all time according to everyone.

Also don't understand how Dirk is called a bad defender his whole career but Love is all of a sudden a great defender.

who the hell said any of that? Funny enough, Dirk is a PERFECT example of what I was saying in Love's defense. Being a poor defender is a tough reputation to shake. Fact is, Love is CURRENTLY the best stretch PF in the game, and there isn't a close second. It doesn't mean he has even sniffed Dirk's all time ranking yet dude. Not even close.

John Walls Era
11-14-2013, 08:43 PM
Love is number 5 in real mvp race (the one I made in my head 3 seconds ago). Behind LBJ, Durant, George and Curry. Hes playing with such a bad supporting cast that I might even put him at 3 by AS game.

Hawkeye15
11-14-2013, 08:44 PM
honestly, all I care about as a Wolves fan, is to stay healthy, and let Love's game do the talking.

Hawkeye15
11-14-2013, 08:45 PM
Love is number 5 in real mvp race (the one I made in my head 3 seconds ago). Behind LBJ, Durant, George and Curry. Hes playing with such a bad supporting cast that I might even put him at 3 by AS game.

to be fair, Kevin Martin has been awesome, Corey Brewer is playing well, and now with Rubio and Pekovic FINALLY coming alive, they have a starting five that plays as well on both ends. Do I expect Martin/Brewer to continue at their pace? Meh, not really. But I think Rubio/Pek improvement offsets those players regression.

tredigs
11-14-2013, 08:48 PM
Love is number 5 in real mvp race (the one I made in my head 3 seconds ago). Behind LBJ, Durant, George and Curry. Hes playing with such a bad supporting cast that I might even put him at 3 by AS game.

"Such a bad supporting cast" is probably not how most would describe a starting lineup of Rubio, Pek, Brewer and Kevin Martin and his 25ppg on 62% TS to start the year. Rubio started slow (still averaging a virtual double double with fantastic D), but the team has been great. Your trolling is getting the best of you lately.

hotdalton18
11-14-2013, 08:51 PM
Aside from Bron and Durant to start a franchise id take Anthony Davis

TheChandlerFlu
11-14-2013, 09:04 PM
I think Chris Paul and Paul George... maybe Curry but I would be scared of his health

John Walls Era
11-14-2013, 09:13 PM
"Such a bad supporting cast" is probably not how most would describe a starting lineup of Rubio, Pek, Brewer and Kevin Martin and his 25ppg on 62% TS to start the year. Rubio started slow (still averaging a virtual double double with fantastic D), but the team has been great. Your trolling is getting the best of you lately.

Trolling? Truth-telling. Find a single post that I fabricated the info. Has K-Mart ever made the playoffs since his rookie year? He will go back to being a low % shooter. Brewer is bad. Pek is solid. Rubio is what Rubio is.

tredigs
11-14-2013, 09:17 PM
Trolling? Truth-telling. Find a single post that I fabricated the info. Has K-Mart ever made the playoffs since his rookie year? He will go back to being a low % shooter. Brewer is bad. Pek is solid. Rubio is what Rubio is.

Is K Mart a #1 and team leader? No. What he is is an outstanding 3rd option who's playing like the best 2nd option in the NBA. Brewer's a good "glue guy". Good defender, doesn't need the ball but is hitting open shots.

And what Rubio is is an elite playmaker and very good defender. Can't shoot a mid range jumper, but you'll take it.

WARRIORS@GR
11-14-2013, 09:18 PM
Everytime Curry's name comes into a thread,there is always a random guy who checks in to say ''oh no,he is just a shooter'':laugh:

John Walls Era
11-14-2013, 09:22 PM
Is K Mart a #1 and team leader? No. What he is is an outstanding 3rd option who's playing like the best 2nd option in the NBA. Brewer's a good "glue guy". Good defender, doesn't need the ball but is hitting open shots.

And what Rubio is is an elite playmaker and very good defender. Can't shoot a mid range jumper, but you'll take it.

Tell me how I'm trolling. Also the bench players suck (they are included in the supporting cast). They wasted that Derrick Williams pick.

ztilzer31
11-14-2013, 11:22 PM
love has a long way to go before touching dirk in an all time sense- i haven't seen a single poster argue that and probably shouldn't for at least four or five years. but love currently produces at a level that far surpasses Dirk, and he can handle a heavier load in terms of total team responsibilities and minutes per game. Last five minutes of a game seven? a lot of people might still take dirk. but that doesn't make him better overall right now.

According to defensive rating AI is a better defender than the glove, and Manu Ginobli is a top 30 defender all time.

Swashcuff
11-14-2013, 11:47 PM
I love Kevin Love, but Kevin Love just to me isnt a #1, he is a Jump shooting big man who rebounds great, but doesnt really have a go to type of offense. he is a great player, but there are so many others out there who i would take before him who can create offesne to start a franchise.

No particular order

D rose , Russle Westbrook, Hardin, Pual, Willaims, George, Curry ( under rated) Kyrie, Blake, Melo, Aldridge, Horford (severly under rated) Wall, Hibbert, ( under rated), Blake , Anthony Davis, Demarcus Cousin (severly under rated) and my final name which i know im going to get beat for, Eric Bledsoe

Im not trying to under value loves game, but love has proven year in and year out he isnt a capable enough player to lead a team to the playoffs. he is going to be a great #2 to wherever he goes, but he cant lead a team, so i cant take him #3,

:puke: :crazy:

Funny that someone would say Love can't create his own offense when so far this season he's being assisted on 63.6% of his made field goals and the league average at PF last season was 66%. Love also is LEADING all big men in terms of AST%. Dude isn't just creating offense for himself but also for his teammates.

These stereotypes of Love really are comical to me. I mean if a guy who doesn't create his own offense can lead the league in points scored and FGs made think of how lethal he can be if he learns to create for himself.

Kushed
11-15-2013, 01:11 AM
Love is straight garbo

Bruno
11-15-2013, 01:21 AM
According to defensive rating AI is a better defender than the glove, and Manu Ginobli is a top 30 defender all time.

implication being that average defenders get credited for being on elite defensive teams and that elite defenders get punished for being on average defensive teams?

sure, but who else on the wolves is a great defender? what other personnel on the Wolves are responsible for their current standing of 6th in defensive rating? who elses defense on that team is carrying love and the wolves to such an elite defensive rating? if you can't answer that then all signs point to love being responsible along with the good defenders (Rubio/Brewer).

rhino17
11-15-2013, 04:52 AM
Paul George
James Harden
Steph Curry
Anthony Davis

For sure, probs some more

Swashcuff
11-15-2013, 09:10 AM
I can't understand the choice of Harden over Love. Realistically what does Harden do better than Love for him to get the nod? I understand Curry, he's a playmaker and become a damn good one, also he's probably the best shooter ever, AD probably a higher ceiling who can wrack you up 22 and 12 while going after a few DPOY awards, PG elite two way player. Harden though? He's of negative value defensively and streaky on offense. Love as a PF is actually considerably better defensively than Harden is on the perimeter and arguably a more productive offensive player.

John Walls Era
11-15-2013, 09:12 AM
I can't understand the choice of Harden over Love. Realistically what does Harden do better than Love for him to get the nod? I understand Curry, he's a playmaker and become a damn good one, also he's probably the best shooter ever, AD probably a higher ceiling who can wrack you up 22 and 12 while going after a few DPOY awards, PG elite two way player. Harden though? He's of negative value defensively and streaky on offense. Love as a PF is actually considerably better defensively than Harden is on the perimeter and arguably a more productive offensive player.

Harden use to be a playmaker.

Why do teams need a PF to play perimeter D? And how does anyone measure that ability statistically for a PF mostly guarding players in the post?

Swashcuff
11-15-2013, 09:23 AM
Harden use to be a playmaker.

Why do teams need a PF to play perimeter D? And how does anyone measure that ability statistically for a PF mostly guarding players in the post?

You misunderstood what I wrote, I said love AS a PF is better than Harden on the perimeter (aka an SG). Never said anyone needs a PF to play perimeter D.

Harden is a play maker but he is not on Curry's level. Love so far this season has a better AST% than Harden and TBH with the improvements he's shown in that aspect I'll certainly buy 4.5+ APG for the season. He grabs you 3 times as many rebounds as Harden does and scores on just as good a volume on comparable efficiency. Really can't see how Harden also other players like Aldridge, John Wall, hell damn near every player Kyben36 chose can be taken ahead of Kevin Love.

ztilzer31
11-15-2013, 10:10 AM
implication being that average defenders get credited for being on elite defensive teams and that elite defenders get punished for being on average defensive teams?

sure, but who else on the wolves is a great defender? what other personnel on the Wolves are responsible for their current standing of 6th in defensive rating? who elses defense on that team is carrying love and the wolves to such an elite defensive rating? if you can't answer that then all signs point to love being responsible along with the good defenders (Rubio/Brewer).

Like I said earlier it's a very small body of work, and defensive rating has proven to be a sham in many situations before. I don't know anyone that uses that stat consistently.

I don't see the reasoning in using a stat you probably couldn't explain how and why it works, and expecting it to be 100% accurate. However if you've been watching the games, and are telling me Love has upped his ante on defense, than you're probably right about him being the best player at this point.

It's early too, and there's not enough data. The real test will be 22nd to the 25th. Houston/Indiana/Brooklyn. That'll be the real test. When Love will have to go up against some top tier big men.

koreancabbage
11-15-2013, 10:11 AM
as of right now - Anthony Davis.

ztilzer31
11-15-2013, 10:16 AM
I guess for me stats are a guide line. So I like simpler accurate stats. Anything that is trying to develop a ranking though is garbage to me. Defensive rating is way too complicated for you ever to convince me you understand it, and how it's used. You'd need a degree in mathematics to define it.

Oefarmy2005
11-15-2013, 11:55 AM
I would revisit this at the end of the season. Love has been superb, but it's 9 games and the Wolves competition has been sub-par more or less. At the very least I'd wait until the allstar break to make any claims on where Love is. He's been playing like a top 5 player so far, but I expect him to come back to earth a bit. He is legitimately a top 10 player, perhaps even top 7 - I think that people just forgot that because of last year.

Kyben36
11-15-2013, 12:17 PM
:puke: :crazy:

Funny that someone would say Love can't create his own offense when so far this season he's being assisted on 63.6% of his made field goals and the league average at PF last season was 66%. Love also is LEADING all big men in terms of AST%. Dude isn't just creating offense for himself but also for his teammates.

These stereotypes of Love really are comical to me. I mean if a guy who doesn't create his own offense can lead the league in points scored and FGs made think of how lethal he can be if he learns to create for himself.

hes a jump shooting big, and your 66% is also from players that cant create offense like backup 4s like taj gibson as well, his 63% still is high, he isnt an offensive creator, he is a great player and a great passer i will give you that, but at the end of the game, they dont put the ball in his hands for a reason, he can not generate a shot. he can pop out and hit a shot really well, but they will not post him up like they did with Tim Ducnan or Kevin Garnett.

Kyben36
11-15-2013, 12:27 PM
Why is everyone mentioning Curry? Dude can shoot extremely well, but what else is he good for? Outside of his shooting, he hasn't impressed me too much. Not to mention those ankles...

As to answer the question...

At this point, I think only Cp3 has been more valuable.

Paul George is another consideration, however, I'd like to see George put up these numbers for a whole season. Lov

Otherwise, I think Love has been a top 5 player this year.

if you dont understand curry you dont watch him play, he is really that good, as well, if your making the ocment of just being an outside shooter, kevin durrant is the same thing, lights out shooter, doent pass or defend extremely well, but everyone loves him cause he can score, Curry creates off the dribble, has excelent court vission, finds teamates, he deserves to be mentioned.

DR_1
11-15-2013, 01:29 PM
Rose is the most overrated player in the nba. Love beats him or ties him in every important advanced metric.

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

beliges
11-15-2013, 01:37 PM
I would revisit this at the end of the season. Love has been superb, but it's 9 games and the Wolves competition has been sub-par more or less. At the very least I'd wait until the allstar break to make any claims on where Love is. He's been playing like a top 5 player so far, but I expect him to come back to earth a bit. He is legitimately a top 10 player, perhaps even top 7 - I think that people just forgot that because of last year.

Love is the best PF in the game today. No need to wait until the end of the year or the all-star break for that. Love is a great player on a bad team.

Kushed
11-15-2013, 01:41 PM
I would revisit this at the end of the season. Love has been superb, but it's 9 games and the Wolves competition has been sub-par more or less. At the very least I'd wait until the allstar break to make any claims on where Love is. He's been playing like a top 5 player so far, but I expect him to come back to earth a bit. He is legitimately a top 10 player, perhaps even top 7 - I think that people just forgot that because of last year.

This is a common thing I hear is that people expect him to come back down to earth... What does that mean? Two years ago, a healthy Kevin Love averaged 26 and 14. I have no reason to believe he can't keep this play up for an entire season especially considering how much he's improved. Even through nine games, I can tell how much he has improved his individual game by just doing his best to create for his teammates (something he was never big on in the past).

So is 27 and 14 with maybe somewhere from 3-5 apg realistic? Absolutely, not mention the amount of clutch shots he's hit already early in the year. Outside of LeBron and Durant, not too many players I'm taking besides Love. The dude is still really young and is still developing at a high rate.

reemy
11-15-2013, 03:28 PM
Love is the best PF in the game today. No need to wait until the end of the year or the all-star break for that. Love is a great player on a bad team.

Did you even watch the wolves this season, or are you basing that off of what you seen last year?

Swashcuff
11-15-2013, 03:30 PM
hes a jump shooting big, and your 66% is also from players that cant create offense like backup 4s like taj gibson as well, his 63% still is high, he isnt an offensive creator, he is a great player and a great passer i will give you that, but at the end of the game, they dont put the ball in his hands for a reason, he can not generate a shot. he can pop out and hit a shot really well, but they will not post him up like they did with Tim Ducnan or Kevin Garnett.

Hawkeye15 could you please school this young man as to how good Love is down the stretch, ESPECIALLY when it comes to creating his own shot.

The fact that you think you can't trust Love down the stretch is testament to the fact that you're just not watching the Wolves play but maybe not even watching basketball highlights on line or on TV. I'm currently on my phone when I get in front a PC I'll share some links.

Swashcuff
11-15-2013, 03:32 PM
if you dont understand curry you dont watch him play, he is really that good, as well, if your making the ocment of just being an outside shooter, kevin durrant is the same thing, lights out shooter, doent pass or defend extremely well, but everyone loves him cause he can score, Curry creates off the dribble, has excelent court vission, finds teamates, he deserves to be mentioned.

Kevin Durant is an excellent passer and a more than solid defender what are you talking about?

Hawkeye15
11-15-2013, 03:46 PM
Hawkeye15 could you please school this young man as to how good Love is down the stretch, ESPECIALLY when it comes to creating his own shot.

The fact that you think you can't trust Love down the stretch is testament to the fact that you're just not watching the Wolves play but maybe not even watching basketball highlights on line or on TV. I'm currently on my phone when I get in front a PC I'll share some links.

Why would they have Love post the ball up, when he is far more suited to being that stretch 4 who can draw defenders out and either score from 25 feet, or dump it into Non?

One of the things I love about Love, is his balls down the stretch. He is the anti-KG for us Wolves fans. We had our initial star always deferring in the biggest moments. This one (not saying he is on KG's level overall, but better at many things) is all about taking and making big shots. Ask Clipper fans, or Knicks fans, or Magic fans, or OKC fans for instance.

People are not watching Wolves games this year obviously, if they are claiming Love doesn't create his own shot, or he isn't defending and passing like Chris Webber did in Adelman's system. They aren't seeing the historic outlet passes.

It's 9 games in. If history has taught us anything, it's to not get overly excited as Wolves fans. But so far, through those 9 games, nobody is playing better than Kevin Love.

Hawkeye15
11-15-2013, 03:48 PM
This is a common thing I hear is that people expect him to come back down to earth... What does that mean? Two years ago, a healthy Kevin Love averaged 26 and 14. I have no reason to believe he can't keep this play up for an entire season especially considering how much he's improved. Even through nine games, I can tell how much he has improved his individual game by just doing his best to create for his teammates (something he was never big on in the past).

So is 27 and 14 with maybe somewhere from 3-5 apg realistic? Absolutely, not mention the amount of clutch shots he's hit already early in the year. Outside of LeBron and Durant, not too many players I'm taking besides Love. The dude is still really young and is still developing at a high rate.

as Wolves fans (you should know this), we have come to expect injuries and falling down when the later season stretch comes. Until this team and Love prove otherwise, you have to forgive many for being reserved about this incredible start by Love.

tredigs
11-15-2013, 04:17 PM
I'll still take AD and his Hakeem Olajuwon stat lines as the best PF to start the season.

JasonJohnHorn
11-15-2013, 04:27 PM
Nobody. If he was 20 years old, I'd say Chris Paul, but he's not, so Love would be my first pick after LBJ and the Durantula.

Hawkeye15
11-15-2013, 04:52 PM
I'll still take AD and his Hakeem Olajuwon stat lines as the best PF to start the season.

nobody has had Loves stat lines since Wilt...

tredigs
11-15-2013, 05:13 PM
nobody has had Loves stat lines since Wilt...

He's played amazing and trust me I don't blame you for your take on it. But AD at 20 yrs old is just a force of nature on both ends. 2+ steals and 3+ blocks a game to accompany his 20/10+? That is Olajuwon.

Red_Pill
11-15-2013, 05:29 PM
Good point. Curry might as well be Matt Bonner out there. All the dude can do is shoot good.

What else does he excel at? His playmaking is overrated. He's no Chris Paul or LeBron James in that department. His defense is average. He's a good player, but everyone is building him up as an MVP type player which he isn't and never will be. He's an all-star caliber player for sure, but not someone I would choose to lead my team. As long as he's the number one option in GS, they're not winning anything other than a round or two in the playoffs. He's like Ray Allen in that respect. With his abilities, he's better suited as a second option for a team.

Red_Pill
11-15-2013, 05:34 PM
if you dont understand curry you dont watch him play, he is really that good, as well, if your making the ocment of just being an outside shooter, kevin durrant is the same thing, lights out shooter, doent pass or defend extremely well, but everyone loves him cause he can score, Curry creates off the dribble, has excelent court vission, finds teamates, he deserves to be mentioned.

I've watched a ton of Golden State games. I find them to be a VERY fun team to watch. I just don't think Curry's talents will translate to any type of playoff success unless he's a number two option. And I certainly wouldn't want to start a team with him as my first pick, especially over players like Rose, CP3, or Love.

Durant is a solid defender and getting better, and his play making skills are improving tremendously. Not to mention Durant is a better pure scorer than Curry, though, Curry is a better marksman, obviously.

Those last things you mentioned about Curry are things point guards are supposed to do. Curry is a great player, but he's not someone you'd want to lead a franchise.

tredigs
11-15-2013, 05:46 PM
What else does he excel at? His playmaking is overrated. He's no Chris Paul or LeBron James in that department. His defense is average. He's a good player, but everyone is building him up as an MVP type player which he isn't and never will be. He's an all-star caliber player for sure, but not someone I would choose to lead my team. As long as he's the number one option in GS, they're not winning anything other than a round or two in the playoffs. He's like Ray Allen in that respect. With his abilities, he's better suited as a second option for a team.


He's a better playmaker than Derrick Rose and a better shooter than Ray Allen. I'd say he brings elite All Star play to the table. He'll finish the season around 24/4/8 on 45/45/90. And his mere presence on the court opens up the game for others to have countless open shots. I called Igoudala having the best 3pt shooting season of his career a few months ago, and he's currently at 50% from 3 on the highest volume of his career. It's not a coincidence, and I don't see any reason why Rose in '10 is more impactful than he can be. And apparently that's MVP play. This kid can easily be the focal point of a contender offensively.

Kushed
11-15-2013, 05:55 PM
as Wolves fans (you should know this), we have come to expect injuries and falling down when the later season stretch comes. Until this team and Love prove otherwise, you have to forgive many for being reserved about this incredible start by Love.

Well my post was more under the assumption that Love would stay healthy. If so, I think there is no reason he can't keep up this play.

But yes, I probably will never be content this season no matter the record cause at the end of the day we are still the timberwolves

Red_Pill
11-15-2013, 07:10 PM
He's a better playmaker than Derrick Rose and a better shooter than Ray Allen. I'd say he brings elite All Star play to the table. He'll finish the season around 24/4/8 on 45/45/90. And his mere presence on the court opens up the game for others to have countless open shots. I called Igoudala having the best 3pt shooting season of his career a few months ago, and he's currently at 50% from 3 on the highest volume of his career. It's not a coincidence, and I don't see any reason why Rose in '10 is more impactful than he can be. And apparently that's MVP play. This kid can easily be the focal point of a contender offensively.

His presence definitely helps his team and he no doubt is a huge asset, but don't compare his play to Rose. You remove Curry from the GSW, they'll still be a very good team. I mean, they have Lee, Bogut, Iggy, and Thompson can easily replace Curry as the primary outside scorer and they'll still be fine. Rose primarily won the award because of how important he was to that teams success. Look what they were without him? We'll have to agree to disagree. Would love to have Curry on my favorite team, but as a second option. He's an amazing talent, but in regards to this thread, I think there a lot of better options to choose over him in regard to starting and leading a team. At least 9 other options.

tredigs
11-15-2013, 08:47 PM
His presence definitely helps his team and he no doubt is a huge asset, but don't compare his play to Rose. You remove Curry from the GSW, they'll still be a very good team. I mean, they have Lee, Bogut, Iggy, and Thompson can easily replace Curry as the primary outside scorer and they'll still be fine. Rose primarily won the award because of how important he was to that teams success. Look what they were without him? We'll have to agree to disagree. Would love to have Curry on my favorite team, but as a second option. He's an amazing talent, but in regards to this thread, I think there a lot of better options to choose over him in regard to starting and leading a team. At least 9 other options.

The Bulls were a 2nd round playoff team without Rose, let's not pretend like they fell apart. Deng/Boozer/Noah/Asik. Butler now. The team is loaded. If you don't think Curry has Rose's impact, you aren't watching both teams and are ignoring the stats. And who's running point without Curry? Iggy's a good creator - especially in transition - but he can't run a half court offense all game. Klay can't either. Leaves them with Toney Douglas. Not pretty. This team wouldn't win 40 games without Curry. Wouldn't have won 35 or been a 2nd round playoff team without him last season.

goingfor28
11-15-2013, 09:02 PM
through 9 games? Chris Paul is the only other player I would take this year. Long season, lets see what happens...

yup

Bruno
11-15-2013, 09:07 PM
He's played amazing and trust me I don't blame you for your take on it. But AD at 20 yrs old is just a force of nature on both ends. 2+ steals and 3+ blocks a game to accompany his 20/10+? That is Olajuwon.

its a threes/assists to steals/block trade off between those two.

ramsizzle
11-15-2013, 09:23 PM
The Bulls were a 2nd round playoff team without Rose, let's not pretend like they fell apart. Deng/Boozer/Noah/Asik. Butler now. The team is loaded. If you don't think Curry has Rose's impact, you aren't watching both teams and are ignoring the stats. And who's running point without Curry? Iggy's a good creator - especially in transition - but he can't run a half court offense all game. Klay can't either. Leaves them with Toney Douglas. Not pretty. This team wouldn't win 40 games without Curry. Wouldn't have won 35 or been a 2nd round playoff team without him last season.

The bulls won 62 games in 10-11, 50-16 in 11-12 (same win% as the year before,) then 47 games in 13. you think curry is a 15 win player? because that is what Rose is.

tredigs
11-15-2013, 10:02 PM
The bulls won 62 games in 10-11, 50-16 in 11-12 (same win% as the year before,) then 47 games in 13. you think curry is a 15 win player? because that is what Rose is.

How your team is constructed makes a difference. He's far more important to an offensively weaker Bulls squad than he would be on Golden State in place of Curry. On GS he would be a worse fit as he can't open up the game for other teammates to get open looks with his floor stretching ability on anything close to Curry's level (although his 4+ attempts from downtown indicate he thinks he can light it up, he's still terrible at it and no team respects his outside shot). If Curry was playing for Chi last year, they're a 55+ win contender. Their net impact if Rose gets his game back is very similar, but I think Curry meshes with more teams. Any team, really.

Also, part of their squad being worse off last year was losing Asik. They were no longer a top 5 D.

ramsizzle
11-15-2013, 10:08 PM
How your team is constructed makes a difference. He's far more important to an offensively weaker Bulls squad than he would be on Golden State in place of Curry. On GS he would be a worse fit as he can't open up the game for other teammates to get open looks with his floor stretching ability on anything close to Curry's level (although his 4+ attempts from downtown indicate he thinks he can light it up, he's still terrible at it and no team respects his outside shot). If Curry was playing for Chi last year, they're a 55+ win contender. Their net impact if Rose gets his game back is very similar, but I think Curry meshes with more teams. Any team, really.

Also, part of their squad being worse off last year was losing Asik. They were no longer a top 5 D.

OH so Asik is why the bulls were worse and curry would make the bulls a contender over Rose.... Gotcha, champ.

tredigs
11-15-2013, 10:11 PM
OH so Asik is why the bulls were worse and curry would make the bulls a contender over Rose.... Gotcha, champ.

Nice homer glasses kiddo. "Also, part of the reason...". Are you implying that Asik did not help the Bulls defense be #1 in the league with him and outside the top 5 last year without? Or maybe that was all Rose too? The Bulls last season would have been a contender with Curry, correct. Nowhere did I write "over Rose".

ramsizzle
11-15-2013, 10:26 PM
Nice homer glasses kiddo. "Also, part of the reason...". Are you implying that Asik did not help the Bulls defense be #1 in the league with him and outside the top 5 last year without? Or maybe that was all Rose too? The Bulls last season would have been a contender with Curry, correct. Nowhere did I write "over Rose".

oh so asik's 12 and 14 minutes per game respectively had more impact than rose missing an entire season, yeah im the homer. Rose when healthy is a damn good defender in his own right and his impact is much more important. Asik was a backup to an already elite defender.

tredigs
11-15-2013, 10:46 PM
oh so asik's 12 and 14 minutes per game respectively had more impact than rose missing an entire season, yeah im the homer. Rose when healthy is a damn good defender in his own right and his impact is much more important. Asik was a backup to an already elite defender.

Noah played 30 mpg, Asik 15. That's nearly a full games worth of elite paint protection, and that is extremely difficult for an opponent to combat. It wasn't a coincidence that he had one of the leagues best Defensive RAPM's and Defensive Ratings (best on Bulls as well).

And no **** Rose had a much bigger impact, enough of this drivel.

wowzah
11-16-2013, 11:08 AM
What has this thread gotten into? Do people actually want Kevin Love outside of LeBron and Durant in the playoffs?

Why is Curry here? WTF is this. Seriously WTF?

Anthony Davis???

I want to win a playoff series. I'm going with been there and done that. Tony Parker is still playing at a very high level. Tim Duncan is still playing at a high level, especially per minute though not as high as he used to.

The only thing holding Parker back from being the 2nd best player in the league behind LeBron is his height. That's it.

FlashBolt
11-16-2013, 11:19 AM
What has this thread gotten into? Do people actually want Kevin Love outside of LeBron and Durant in the playoffs?

Why is Curry here? WTF is this. Seriously WTF?

Anthony Davis???

I want to win a playoff series. I'm going with been there and done that. Tony Parker is still playing at a very high level. Tim Duncan is still playing at a high level, especially per minute though not as high as he used to.

The only thing holding Parker back from being the 2nd best player in the league behind LeBron is his height. That's it.

Did you just say Parker is better than Kevin Love? The only thing holding AI was his height as well. What kind of logic are you using? That's like saying the only thing holding back Shaq was that he couldn't fly. Well no duh, not everyone and everything can have those specifications.

wowzah
11-16-2013, 11:28 AM
Did you just say Parker is better than Kevin Love? The only thing holding AI was his height as well. What kind of logic are you using? That's like saying the only thing holding back Shaq was that he couldn't fly. Well no duh, not everyone and everything can have those specifications.

Hell yea he's better than Love.