PDA

View Full Version : Why do guards shoot better FT than big men ?



Chrisclover
11-08-2013, 10:51 AM
It really boggles my mind ,why do many big men like Howard ,Shaq, Asik suck in free throws?
It is not a common problem for the guards
Since Pop created the so called "heck-shaq" strategy ,the heck-howard and heck -asik strategy and so forth have been created .somebody says it is a reasonable strategy ,because NBA players are professional athletes ,not amateurs, they are supposed to hit the FTs ?
But why do some big men always fail to do it ?I can name some exceptions ,like Yao,KG and Lopez .Why do they have soft hands ,while some dudes don't ?simply because these dudes are lazy and don't have enough practice ?But i recall that Howard sometimes brags that he is a solid FT shooter in practice
What a confusing thing it is !

conway429
11-08-2013, 10:58 AM
It's not that much of a mystery...
off the top of my head I would assume:
- shorter players are lower to the ground, which means they require more of an arc on their shot, meaning there's a larger surface area of net to shoot at. while taller players have a flatter path to the basket, making the basket smaller and the ball less likely to go in. the ball will also be going faster if you throw it flat as opposed to with an arc. and a ball thrown flat will be assisted less by putting spin on the ball.
- shorter players have a lower centre of gravity, which usually leads to better balance and co-ordination
- taller players have bigger hands which makes it harder to shoot from a distance (try shooting a tennis ball from the 3 pt line)

ATX
11-08-2013, 11:09 AM
Big men generally suffer from coordination issues more-so than smaller adults. They also have bigger hands, and are taller from the ground thus making the arc a little more challenging from mid range...Or what conway429 said.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
11-08-2013, 11:14 AM
It's not that much of a mystery...
off the top of my head I would assume:
- shorter players are lower to the ground, which means they require more of an arc on their shot, meaning there's a larger surface area of net to shoot at. while taller players have a flatter path to the basket, making the basket smaller and the ball less likely to go in. the ball will also be going faster if you throw it flat as opposed to with an arc. and a ball thrown flat will be assisted less by putting spin on the ball.
- shorter players have a lower centre of gravity, which usually leads to better balance and co-ordination
- taller players have bigger hands which makes it harder to shoot from a distance (try shooting a tennis ball from the 3 pt line)

Why do they have to shoot the ball with no arc though? I think it's the coordination thing. Look at Rasheed Wallace, Dirk, etc, both had great shooting ability. Some dudes like Dwight, just seem real stiff to when he shoots a free throw, Shaq was a lot more relaxed @ the FT line, but had no mechanics.

conway429
11-08-2013, 11:32 AM
Why do they have to shoot the ball with no arc though? I think it's the coordination thing. Look at Rasheed Wallace, Dirk, etc, both had great shooting ability. Some dudes like Dwight, just seem real stiff to when he shoots a free throw, Shaq was a lot more relaxed @ the FT line, but had no mechanics.

it's definitely a combination of a few different things, but the arc is definitely a big factor. I mean, look at Rick Barry. the rim is definitely more forgiving.
If you're taller and you try to include an arc, the peak of the arc will have to be much higher up, and the ball will come down to the net at a higher velocity.
I think it's also just less intuitive to think about putting an arc on the shot when the rim is closer to eye level.
if you get chance on an adjustable net, bring the rim down a few feet, it should be much more difficult to make shots.
(which now that I think about it, might be the trick with those rapid-fire arcade basketball games?)

Rockice_8
11-08-2013, 11:39 AM
Usually when you're tall and play basketball you are forced to play inside by your coaches rather than learn how to handle the basketball and shoot. So these bigs just never practiced shooting and therefore have awkward releases and poor mechanics from lack of development. They work on their post games because of height when they should be working on their overall game.

It's the ones that have the big growth spurts later in life (so they get some shooting and handling practice early on in their development) or just good coaching early on that have a good touch.

ATX
11-08-2013, 11:44 AM
Usually when you're tall and play basketball you are forced to play inside by your coaches rather than learn how to handle the basketball and shoot. So these bigs just never practiced shooting and therefore have awkward releases and poor mechanics from lack of development. They work on their post games because of height when they should be working on their overall game.

It's the ones that have the big growth spurts later in life (so they get some shooting and handling practice early on in their development) or just good coaching early on that have a good touch.

Good points, but all team members practice their FT's on a consistent basis. Big men get just as much practice at FT shooting as anyone else.

NJBASEBALL22
11-08-2013, 11:58 AM
I forget what coach said it, but the idea was Guards generally shoot better from the free throw line because they have to, to get on the court growing up. Big guys always get put on the court regardless because they rebound, defend the paint and make chip ins (talking about like middle school and high school), little guys need to do the small things right to see P.T. So the better shooting guards get more P.T. and progress more than ones that don't. Obviously that is just speaking in general, because if a guy is as fast or talented as D. Rose but couldn't shoot free throws (couch couch like at Memphis), he will still see the floor though maybe not in tight games, but you will always have the outliers... a big like Yao Ming or Brook Lopez who has a good shooting touch. But note that the bigs that are good at FTs also have a nice shooting touch from the mid-range so it is an overall shooting ability.

But I would say that guards practice shooting from outside (mid-range, long J's, and 3's) more, which incidentally has a positive effect on shooting touch, shooting mechanics, and overall shooting feel- all things that translate to shooting FTs. Bigs generally practice in the paint more.

ewing
11-08-2013, 12:20 PM
It's not that much of a mystery...
off the top of my head I would assume:
- shorter players are lower to the ground, which means they require more of an arc on their shot, meaning there's a larger surface area of net to shoot at. while taller players have a flatter path to the basket, making the basket smaller and the ball less likely to go in. the ball will also be going faster if you throw it flat as opposed to with an arc. and a ball thrown flat will be assisted less by putting spin on the ball.
- shorter players have a lower centre of gravity, which usually leads to better balance and co-ordination
- taller players have bigger hands which makes it harder to shoot from a distance (try shooting a tennis ball from the 3 pt line)

The hoop does not get smaller the taller you are

ewing
11-08-2013, 12:21 PM
big guys shoot from inside there whole life. If you are 5'10, 160, and white. You learn to shoot

conway429
11-08-2013, 12:26 PM
The hoop does not get smaller the taller you are

it gets relatively smaller based on the angle you are looking at it from.
take a cup and put it on a table. look at it from the side and notice the size of the opening at the top. then look at the cup from above.
a smaller player is forced to put a greater degree of arc on the shot vs a taller player where the rim is closer to eye level.
the size of the basket is changed based on the trajectory the ball comes at it at.

NoahH
11-08-2013, 12:27 PM
It's not that much of a mystery.. They can't shoot FTs in the same sense they can't shoot 3s but guards can.

A. Guards refine their shooting skills more than big men in most cases B. Coordination.

ThaDubs
11-08-2013, 12:28 PM
It's not that much of a mystery...
off the top of my head I would assume:
- shorter players are lower to the ground, which means they require more of an arc on their shot, meaning there's a larger surface area of net to shoot at. while taller players have a flatter path to the basket, making the basket smaller and the ball less likely to go in. the ball will also be going faster if you throw it flat as opposed to with an arc. and a ball thrown flat will be assisted less by putting spin on the ball.
- shorter players have a lower centre of gravity, which usually leads to better balance and co-ordination
- taller players have bigger hands which makes it harder to shoot from a distance (try shooting a tennis ball from the 3 pt line)

A couple things wrong here.

- No matter your height, you can still get arc on your shot.
- Unless you have 3 foot hands, a basketball is not going to feel like a tennis ball.

Chronz
11-08-2013, 12:30 PM
Bigs tend to play inside, smalls outside. The more time spent on one aspect of the game may detract from another in some way. I suppose a player can attain something close to perfection if they work hard enough but I dont expect everyone to have the drive to maximize every ounce of talent. If Shaq had spent more time on his range, he may not have developed the supreme inside game that was based on more than just size+athleticism. You need to know how to use that body, experience of spatial awareness on the blocks and vision to pass. That stuff takes repetition just like shooting. Not trying to make excuses, just a thought.

conway429
11-08-2013, 12:31 PM
A couple things wrong here.

- No matter your height, you can still get arc on your shot.
- Unless you have 3 foot hands, a basketball is not going to feel like a tennis ball.

AGAIN (as I mentioned above), yes, a taller player can also put arc on a shot. but when a taller player puts the same arc on his shot to approach the basket at the same trajectory, the peak of that arc will be at a higher point than it was for the shorter player, which has a number of effects.

there's certainly other aspects at play, but this is one of them.

did no one here go to school? the idea is to throw a ball into a hoop and no one thinks PHYSICS has a huge role in it?

and the tennis ball was an exaggeration to show a correlation in the relationship between hand size to the size of the ball.

YoungOne
11-08-2013, 12:40 PM
there are much more talented smaller players than taller players simply because there arent that many big people in the world.

I Rock Shaqs
11-08-2013, 12:42 PM
For the OP having clever in his name this is a pretty dumb thread, they have bigger hands and aren't trained to shoot a lot. /thread

Byronicle
11-08-2013, 12:45 PM
When I played SF for my team, I was hitting FT's

Then our team became more perimeter orientated and when we started losing so this year I've decided to play more in the post and gain 25 lbs of muscle

I can't hit a FT. The extra muscle has changed the mechanics to my shot. Bigmen with good jumpshots like Duncan and Bosh can hit the FT's but traditional ones can't because they don't practice the form as much.

You get that form down when practicing jumpshots all the time, but not all postmoves end up as a jumpshot so as a bigman you are not practicing the form as much.

JEDean89
11-08-2013, 01:26 PM
even duncan is not that great a FT shooter, i'm pretty sure he's around 70%. imo the big hands have a lot to do with it but even guys like Amare can hit FT's so it's not the only source. I think if you look at Dwight's form, it is clear that his shot is beyond broken and he either won't fix it or can't.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vz6ARZqznjw

you can see he kind of flings the ball at the basket with his right hand as opposed to a fluid stroke of his arms.

here is amare http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpJ0GYzblZU

see how there is less of a hitch in his shot? he doesn't stop on the upswing making for a much for consistent shot. i'm not sure why this is with these guys but some seem to be able to shoot and some can't. i think a lot of these 610-7 ft guys wouldn't be in the NBA if they were any shorter.

D-Leethal
11-08-2013, 02:13 PM
Try shooting FTs with a volleyball.

Than try with a tennis ball.

Which is easier? You know how big Shaq's hands are? The old NBA store in NYC had a handprint for Shaq and it was over double the size of mine and I'm 6'2.

lol, please
11-08-2013, 02:16 PM
It's not that much of a mystery...
off the top of my head I would assume:
- shorter players are lower to the ground, which means they require more of an arc on their shot, meaning there's a larger surface area of net to shoot at. while taller players have a flatter path to the basket, making the basket smaller and the ball less likely to go in. the ball will also be going faster if you throw it flat as opposed to with an arc. and a ball thrown flat will be assisted less by putting spin on the ball.
- shorter players have a lower centre of gravity, which usually leads to better balance and co-ordination
- taller players have bigger hands which makes it harder to shoot from a distance (try shooting a tennis ball from the 3 pt line)
All that considered I still think it's ridiculous. When you practice something enough you should become better at it. Period. Especially if you are a "professional". There is something wrong when high school kids shoot better free throws than a professional player. Things like height or shot focus from other areas are poor excuses in my book, since things like that can be overcome by working at it.

lol, please
11-08-2013, 02:20 PM
AGAIN (as I mentioned above), yes, a taller player can also put arc on a shot. but when a taller player puts the same arc on his shot to approach the basket at the same trajectory, the peak of that arc will be at a higher point than it was for the shorter player, which has a number of effects.

there's certainly other aspects at play, but this is one of them.

did no one here go to school? the idea is to throw a ball into a hoop and no one thinks PHYSICS has a huge role in it?

and the tennis ball was an exaggeration to show a correlation in the relationship between hand size to the size of the ball.

You aren't bound by physics and physical attributes, did you go to school? People overcome height and worse all the time. You can't change the arc trajectory? laughable. It's called adjustment.

"I am X tall so I will never be able to make a FT and just accept it." Laughable thought process.

D-Leethal
11-08-2013, 02:25 PM
AGAIN (as I mentioned above), yes, a taller player can also put arc on a shot. but when a taller player puts the same arc on his shot to approach the basket at the same trajectory, the peak of that arc will be at a higher point than it was for the shorter player, which has a number of effects.

there's certainly other aspects at play, but this is one of them.

did no one here go to school? the idea is to throw a ball into a hoop and no one thinks PHYSICS has a huge role in it?

and the tennis ball was an exaggeration to show a correlation in the relationship between hand size to the size of the ball.

You aren't bound by physics and physical attributes, did you go to school? People overcome height and worse all the time. You can't change the arc trajectory? laughable. It's called adjustment.

"I am X tall so I will never be able to make a FT and just accept it." Laughable thought process.

Ludicrous statement. Of course certain body types are going to have difficult thriving at certain activities. You can adjust but that doesn't mean you will ever thrive. Adjusting for some is what gets them to shoot 60% instead of 40%. Practicing isn't going to make a sumo wrestler run sprints like a 130 lb track star or do hand stands like a gymnast. Practicing isn't gonna make a 7 foot giant shoot FTs like a 6 foot sharpshooter. Your ability at anything is always contingent upon certain physical attributes.

Hawkeye15
11-08-2013, 02:32 PM
Bigs tend to play inside, smalls outside. The more time spent on one aspect of the game may detract from another in some way. I suppose a player can attain something close to perfection if they work hard enough but I dont expect everyone to have the drive to maximize every ounce of talent. If Shaq had spent more time on his range, he may not have developed the supreme inside game that was based on more than just size+athleticism. You need to know how to use that body, experience of spatial awareness on the blocks and vision to pass. That stuff takes repetition just like shooting. Not trying to make excuses, just a thought.

that is partially it, as well as the physics. The bigger you are, the less coordination you generally have, as well have having huge hands.

But yeah, when you shoot thousands and thousands of jumpers your whole life in practice, versus practicing thousands and thousands of drop steps, and hooks, you are already ahead in the curve at the line.

KnickFanSince91
11-08-2013, 02:40 PM
The same reason why bigs have better post moves than guards...they practice it more. Most big men spend their time working on moves around the basket instead of practicing 14 footers.

blahblahyoutoo
11-08-2013, 07:56 PM
- shorter players are lower to the ground, which means they require more of an arc on their shot, meaning there's a larger surface area of net to shoot at. while taller players have a flatter path to the basket, making the basket smaller and the ball less likely to go in. the ball will also be going faster if you throw it flat as opposed to with an arc. and a ball thrown flat will be assisted less by putting spin on the ball.

is there a basketball rule that dictates the path of a ball for players of different heights, and does not allow players to deviate from it?
are the ceilings too low in NBA arenas to accommodate a higher apex of a taller player?

blahblahyoutoo
11-08-2013, 07:57 PM
it's definitely a combination of a few different things, but the arc is definitely a big factor. I mean, look at Rick Barry. the rim is definitely more forgiving.
If you're taller and you try to include an arc, the peak of the arc will have to be much higher up, and the ball will come down to the net at a higher velocity.
I think it's also just less intuitive to think about putting an arc on the shot when the rim is closer to eye level.
if you get chance on an adjustable net, bring the rim down a few feet, it should be much more difficult to make shots.
(which now that I think about it, might be the trick with those rapid-fire arcade basketball games?)

damn yao ming for being 7'6" for defying physics and shooting better FT than a 6'10" dwight.

the simple answer is this and it has nothing to do with physics and human physiology.
some people are more coordinated/talented than others.

dwight is not a bball player. he has poor footwork and coordination. he is just big and athletic. simple as that.

lol, please
11-08-2013, 08:00 PM
Ludicrous statement. Of course certain body types are going to have difficult thriving at certain activities. You can adjust but that doesn't mean you will ever thrive. Adjusting for some is what gets them to shoot 60% instead of 40%. Practicing isn't going to make a sumo wrestler run sprints like a 130 lb track star or do hand stands like a gymnast. Practicing isn't gonna make a 7 foot giant shoot FTs like a 6 foot sharpshooter. Your ability at anything is always contingent upon certain physical attributes.
It is, but it's something you can overcome. Which is my point.

D-Leethal
11-08-2013, 08:10 PM
It is, but it's something you can overcome. Which is my point.

Overcome meaning what? There are certain people in this world that could shoot 1,000,000 free throws a day and never be able to crack 60%. It takes more than just repetition and hard work. You can't just assume dudes who can't shoot FT's are lazy. On top of that, there are many mental aspects that come into play, ESPECIALLY during a FT throw when your out there on an island with every eye in the building on you. Its a skill - some have it, some don't. Its as idiotic as those people who say defense is nothing but effort and effort only.

lol, please
11-08-2013, 08:13 PM
Overcome meaning what? There are certain people in this world that could shoot 1,000,000 free throws a day and never be able to crack 60%. It takes more than just repetition and hard work. You can't just assume dudes who can't shoot FT's are lazy. On top of that, there are many mental aspects that come into play, ESPECIALLY during a FT throw when your out there on an island with every eye in the building on you. Its a skill - some have it, some don't. Its as idiotic as those people who say defense is nothing but effort and effort only.
By overcome I mean an athlete should refuse to let something like height "hold them back", for example. Everyone has shortcomings in one way or another in life, you don't just quit there and say, well, i will never do this or that. Nonsense. Take personal time to work on things and improve them to the best of your ability. Don't make excuses or let others make excuses for you.

slashsnake
11-08-2013, 11:57 PM
By overcome I mean an athlete should refuse to let something like height "hold them back", for example. Everyone has shortcomings in one way or another in life, you don't just quit there and say, well, i will never do this or that. Nonsense. Take personal time to work on things and improve them to the best of your ability. Don't make excuses or let others make excuses for you.

But that just isn't where some of their skills lie. You could work with Mark price 10 hours a day on it, but you'd never get him to throw down a one handed tomohawk over Patrick Ewing. Likewise, a guy like Shaq, who spent countless hours, work with coaches and shrinks, and everything you can think of struggled to hit better than 50% sometimes. It just wasn't where his skills were allocated. I don't think he ever used that as a crutch and gave up on being a dominant championship big man because of his lack of ability at the free throw line. He worked on getting his shot off and in the basket when fouled so teams would have to eat those two points anyways.

You can work for decades if you want with Yao Ming. You aren’t going to get him to get a crossover even half as good as Iverson. You can spend years working with Bargnani. He just isn’t going to get you average rebounds for a 7 footer. I don't care how many off-seasons JaVale McGee spends with Olajuwon, he isn't going to look smooth on offense in the post. And you can spend another decade working with JR Smith. He isn't someone who will run the point half as good as CP3. Some guys have that talent in that specific area, some don’t. Hard work doesn't solve everything, natural talent goes a long way, especially at the top.

IndyRealist
11-09-2013, 01:32 PM
You aren't bound by physics and physical attributes, did you go to school? People overcome height and worse all the time. You can't change the arc trajectory? laughable. It's called adjustment.

"I am X tall so I will never be able to make a FT and just accept it." Laughable thought process.

Mathematically, the best FT shot is the granny shot starting at your waist using both hands. You can get a "high" arc on the shot with the apex just above the rim, so when the ball travels down to the rim it has very little velocity so if it hits the rim it's not likely to bounce out.

if you start the ball higher, and put a high arc on the shot, the ball will be travelling at significant speed when it hits the rim, leading to rim outs. If you shoot with a flat trajectory, like most bigs do, you are aiming at the back of the rim rather than the center of the hoop. You're basically shot putting the ball with significant velocity, since it doesn't have the arc to eat up the energy you used to propel the ball.

Can it be overcome with practice? Sure. But you're always going to have physical limitations that will create diminishing returns on the time a big man puts into practicing free throws. There are many other things bigs need to practice as well, that will yield larger results for the time spent.

Sly Guy
11-09-2013, 04:55 PM
It's not that much of a mystery...
off the top of my head I would assume:
- shorter players are lower to the ground, which means they require more of an arc on their shot, meaning there's a larger surface area of net to shoot at. while taller players have a flatter path to the basket, making the basket smaller and the ball less likely to go in. the ball will also be going faster if you throw it flat as opposed to with an arc. and a ball thrown flat will be assisted less by putting spin on the ball.
- shorter players have a lower centre of gravity, which usually leads to better balance and co-ordination
- taller players have bigger hands which makes it harder to shoot from a distance (try shooting a tennis ball from the 3 pt line)

pretty much the standard 3 tenants I was gonna quote.

JasonJohnHorn
11-09-2013, 06:53 PM
It is all about what kind of shots you take in the game.
Big guys get up close and go off the glass. The method they use to put the ball in the hole doesn't transfer to shooting free throws.

Guard shoot from outside mostly, so the method they use transfers perfects.

Big guys aren't as bad as they look on the floor, it's just that guard learn to shoot and develop a quick rythmn. They don't need a warm up shot or two to shoot. They just pull up and shoot. Shaq said he would shoot 80% from the line in practice... you let Shaq shoot 20 in a row, I bet he hits 70+% of the shots, but my bet is he also misses the first couple of them. The second shot of FTs is the higher percentage shot (I think: and un-tested hypothesis). Some guys need to get into a rhythm to shoot.


the other thing is highschool coaches. If you are a highshcool coach with a guy like Shaq or Dwight, you don't waste YOUR time teaching them to shoot. They will win you the game by 20 points every night, even if they miss half their FTs. Teaching them to shoot give you lower percentage shots. The coaches in highschool NEVER teach big men to shoot (or very rarely do). When I was in highschool, and I'd practice 3's, my coach would ALWAYS say: Are you going to be shooting those during the game? And then tell me to work on my post game.


The problem is, once you've become dependent on a part of your game, you aren't as inclined to work on other parts that require more work. You lean on what you are good at. This is why I have so much respect for a guy like Larry Johnson who reinvented his game, or Tim Duncan that went from one of the WORST FT shooters in the game, to being among the best Duncan was shooting in the 60% range when he started: Last season he was shooting over 80%. That is impressive.

So it is in part poor coaching in highschool, and a reluctance to learn to shoot once you've got an O game that gets you a lot of points. And part is that the guys in the post need a couple of shots to get their rhythm going.

Almighty Push
11-09-2013, 08:09 PM
because Amurica