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sunsfan88
11-06-2013, 05:58 AM
This video highlights Harden's defense:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIyiEc1741s

I know Nash was an awful defender too but at least he tried and was bad because he lacked the athleticism for it.

Harden has the athleticism and size to be a great defender in the NBA and yet he's just so bad defensively. People here rip on Kobe's defense but I'm not so sure that Harden is much better.

BTW at :46, you can hear Harden scream "Oh S**T!" after he lost his man cut back door.

TrueFan420
11-06-2013, 06:45 AM
To be fair reddick is very good with off the ball movement but good god its like he's not even trying. All he seems to care about is getting the steal via playing passing lanes and completely forgets he has a man to guard. On numerous plays you seem him not look once at his guy and just stare down the player with the ball.

Furymaker
11-06-2013, 07:23 AM
yea , and there was example of Harden's "good" defense against Kobe ,all Kobe that did in that video was pump faking and Harden wasn't buying it , there aren't that many players that can chase Reddick all game long , Wade was great defender and Allen burned him most of the times.

Asik's better
11-06-2013, 07:32 AM
To be fair reddick is very good with off the ball movement but good god its like he's not even trying. All he seems to care about is getting the steal via playing passing lanes and completely forgets he has a man to guard. On numerous plays you seem him not look once at his guy and just stare down the player with the ball.

This. A lot that comes down to the rockets always looking for the fast break. If you look at parsons he dose it a lot too. That's why bevs so important to this team, he looks less for intercepting passes and concentrates more on his man.

beasted86
11-06-2013, 11:03 AM
Yes James Harden's defense is one of the worst in the league. I watched that game against the Clippers and found myself constantly shaking my head in disgust and neither of these teams were my teams.

He is vastly overrated based only on scoring because he can't guard a chair. He is still a good player, but you are smoking if you think top 10.

beasted86
11-06-2013, 11:08 AM
yea , and there was example of Harden's "good" defense against Kobe ,all Kobe that did in that video was pump faking and Harden wasn't buying it , there aren't that many players that can chase Reddick all game long , Wade was great defender and Allen burned him most of the times.

The Celtics were elite at setting illegal screens though. Everyone has to agree with that.

bholly
11-06-2013, 11:54 AM
I know Nash was an awful defender too but at least he tried and was bad because he lacked the athleticism for it.

Harden has the athleticism and size to be a great defender in the NBA and yet he's just so bad defensively. People here rip on Kobe's defense but I'm not so sure that Harden is much better.

BTW at :46, you can hear Harden scream "Oh S**T!" after he lost his man cut back door.

What? Who ever ripped on Kobe that hard? The 'ripping' on Kobe is more like "it's stupid that he kept making All-Defensive teams over guys like Iguodala and Tony Allen just because he used to be elite", not "he's an awful defender". It's universally recognized that he was an elite wing defender and can still turn it on at times - nobody puts him anywhere near Harden defensively, as far as I know. He's not lazy and doesn't have bad defensive instincts, he's just older and slower.

FOBolous
11-06-2013, 12:08 PM
i'm not saying Harden's a good defender, but let's be honest, no one was playing defense in that game. there's a reason why the scores were so high that game and defense wasn't it.

KG21
11-06-2013, 12:10 PM
This video highlights Harden's defense:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIyiEc1741s

I know Nash was an awful defender too but at least he tried and was bad because he lacked the athleticism for it.

Harden has the athleticism and size to be a great defender in the NBA and yet he's just so bad defensively. People here rip on Kobe's defense but I'm not so sure that Harden is much better.

BTW at :46, you can hear Harden scream "Oh S**T!" after he lost his man cut back door.

Thank you for pointing out how bad this guy is on D, while being considered as a star. Same goes for others as well who suck this much. NBA is lost cause, but it keeps hanging just because few players, teams, coaches still preach D and their players know how important it is.

LAKobeBryant
11-06-2013, 12:15 PM
That's just being lazy or tires

Htownballa1622
11-06-2013, 12:30 PM
Agreed with the above. That looks more like being lazy/hurt/tired. When engaged,he's actually not that bad.

I feel it's an effort thing. I guess that means he's still below average but for the reason I mentioned of laziness.

ThaDubs
11-06-2013, 12:46 PM
I think he's a better defender than he showed there. He just wanted engaged. Maybe he went out with his buddies and got screwed up the night before. Steph for instance isn't the best defender but you can tell he's trying hard on D. Harden just looked lazy here.

sunsfan88
11-06-2013, 12:48 PM
What? Who ever ripped on Kobe that hard? The 'ripping' on Kobe is more like "it's stupid that he kept making All-Defensive teams over guys like Iguodala and Tony Allen just because he used to be elite", not "he's an awful defender". It's universally recognized that he was an elite wing defender and can still turn it on at times - nobody puts him anywhere near Harden defensively, as far as I know. He's not lazy and doesn't have bad defensive instincts, he's just older and slower.
You would be surprised. I have read posts here saying "Kobe was never a good defender, he just always had good defensive players around him like Shaq, Horry, Ariza, Bynum, MWP etc to cover it up".

AWC713
11-06-2013, 12:55 PM
obviously his D needs work but this thread is a little misleading.

Reddick has great off the ball movement, and only needs .5 seconds to get a shot off. Mixed with a healthy dose of screens, and he's a tough cover for ANY SG.

Harden's problem on the defensive side of the ball is effort. He's 24. He may not be the best defender in 3 years, but he'll be average.

My biggest problem with him, as a ROX fan, is his occasional lack of hustle and refusal to listen to coaches. That happens with a lot of egos/superstars, but the REAL superstars eventually work with their coach..

Supreme LA
11-06-2013, 12:56 PM
yea , and there was example of Harden's "good" defense against Kobe ,all Kobe that did in that video was pump faking and Harden wasn't buying it , there aren't that many players that can chase Reddick all game long , Wade was great defender and Allen burned him most of the times.

Umm...Wade has never been a great defender so that is a bad example. Wade plays very similar to Harden on defense in that he can't guard a man one on one so he plays the passing lanes looking for steals. The only thing Wade has ever been good at on D is weak side help shot-blocking.

Aside from that, they are both pretty horrendous defenders. It's only now people are starting to notice Harden's lapses on D.

Clippersfan86
11-06-2013, 01:06 PM
obviously his D needs work but this thread is a little misleading.

Reddick has great off the ball movement, and only needs .5 seconds to get a shot off. Mixed with a healthy dose of screens, and he's a tough cover for ANY SG.

Harden's problem on the defensive side of the ball is effort. He's 24. He may not be the best defender in 3 years, but he'll be average.

My biggest problem with him, as a ROX fan, is his occasional lack of hustle and refusal to listen to coaches. That happens with a lot of egos/superstars, but the REAL superstars eventually work with their coach..

I'm curious to know more about the not listening to McHale thing. What did/does he do? I think McHale finds himself in a Vinny type situation. Good coach for developing team, not good enough to coach a championship contender. As once was famously said about Vinny... he was handed the keys to a Honda Civic... but when it was swapped for a Ferrari he was clueless how to drive/control it.

I remember Blake completely ignoring and disregarding Vinny too at times and Blake has a reputation as being one of the most coachable, hardest working guys in the game.

valade16
11-06-2013, 01:10 PM
That was terrible effort. He didn't even try. Most of the time he stared down the ball and his guy moved all over the court. It's not like Reddick was putting on moves to get free from Harden in that video, Harden wasn't even looking at him. Anyone could've gotten away from Harden there.

Then even when he actually looks at his defender and is engaged he is horribly out of position. At the beginning of the video he gave that guy a wide open lane on the baseline to the basket. Then on another he jumped out to guard the guy on the 3pt line and gave him a wide open lane to the basket.

Honestly, as a coach I would use this video to show pretty much every mistake you can make on the defensive side of the ball...

b@llhog24
11-06-2013, 01:11 PM
Wow a YouTube video. Well I'm convinced.

BenFrank
11-06-2013, 01:13 PM
How about loading a video of his defense from last night? Instead of probably his worst game as a defender.. During that clippers game he ant look like himself at all.. I swear everyday I come to this board someone got something negative about the Rockets up, we have to be the new most hated team, weather it's Dwight, Harden, Lin.. and I'm sure Parsons will up for discussion soon with how bad he has been playing..

It's so many NBA stars who don't play D but everyone like to point the finger at Harden, I guess it's the beard that makes him stand out

FOBolous
11-06-2013, 01:16 PM
How about loading a video of his defense from last night? Instead of probably his worst game as a defender.. During that clippers game he ant look like himself at all.. I swear everyday I come to this board someone got something negative about the Rockets up, we have to be the new most hated team, weather it's Dwight, Harden, Lin.. and I'm sure Parsons will up for discussion soon with how bad he has been playing..

It's so many NBA stars who don't play D but everyone like to point the finger at Harden, I guess it's the beard that makes him stand out

or instead of a video from a game where no one was playing defense....

Stinkyoutsider
11-06-2013, 01:34 PM
Harden is just being lazy IMO. He's got the talent and ability to be better...

Chronz
11-06-2013, 01:57 PM
He looked awful against LAC but it was just 1 game and hes not in good shape right now.

That said, when it comes to his body he seems very lazy. The guy doesn't even take care of his ****ed up grill hes so lazy. Reminds me of watching an older and broken down Tmac who refused to put much effort on rotations, all Harden needs is to start pointing at every player he wants others to chase, but at least Tmac provided length and intelligence defensively, if Harden isn't going to hustle he has to do a better job of understanding body positioning.

Chronz
11-06-2013, 01:59 PM
or instead of a video from a game where no one was playing defense....
All games matter

Clippersfan86
11-06-2013, 02:01 PM
Harden is in the same mold of Baron Davis/Carmelo Anthony where they are very lazy when it comes to conditioning. They come into every preseason like 10-15 pounds overweight and very pudgy, then lose it during the season. Not good for career longevity and not good if you want to be a champion. Harden has a huge partying problem from what I've heard and imagine if he stopped doing that and put more into his conditioning+defense?

Did anybody see Harden's media day photo? Dude had a straight up gut.

FOBolous
11-06-2013, 02:08 PM
All games matter

all games matter but using footage from a game where no one is playing defense as "evidence" of a player as a bad defender may not be a good idea. cause, let's be real, if anyone wants to claim any player on the Rockets or Clippers are bad defenders...they can find plenty of "evidence" from that game.

sunsfan88
11-06-2013, 02:25 PM
How about loading a video of his defense from last night? Instead of probably his worst game as a defender.. During that clippers game he ant look like himself at all.. I swear everyday I come to this board someone got something negative about the Rockets up, we have to be the new most hated team, weather it's Dwight, Harden, Lin.. and I'm sure Parsons will up for discussion soon with how bad he has been playing..

It's so many NBA stars who don't play D but everyone like to point the finger at Harden, I guess it's the beard that makes him stand out
Harden's the worst defender out of all the so called top 5 "superstars".

alexander_37
11-06-2013, 02:54 PM
And last night he blocked to 3 point shots... So yeah one youtube video of 5-6 bad plays from one game is clear evidence. Nobody outside of fringe roster players who are playing for their jobs gives 100% effort on every defensive set. If you think otherwise you are a fool.

Is Harden a good defense? No, is he terrible? No.

valade16
11-06-2013, 03:44 PM
And last night he blocked to 3 point shots... So yeah one youtube video of 5-6 bad plays from one game is clear evidence. Nobody outside of fringe roster players who are playing for their jobs gives 100% effort on every defensive set. If you think otherwise you are a fool.

Is Harden a good defense? No, is he terrible? No.

I have yet to see Harden play defense consistently in a way that makes me think of him as average, let alone a plus defender...

bholly
11-06-2013, 03:53 PM
Wow a YouTube video. Well I'm convinced.

You know it's a video of actual game footage, right? What does being on youtube have to do with it? You don't think seeing a player play basketball can give insight into how that guy plays basketball?


How about loading a video of his defense from last night? Instead of probably his worst game as a defender.. During that clippers game he ant look like himself at all.. I swear everyday I come to this board someone got something negative about the Rockets up, we have to be the new most hated team, weather it's Dwight, Harden, Lin.. and I'm sure Parsons will up for discussion soon with how bad he has been playing..

It's so many NBA stars who don't play D but everyone like to point the finger at Harden, I guess it's the beard that makes him stand out

For what it's worth, from someone without a dog in any pro-Rockets or anti-Rockets fight, I really haven't noticed this. There are a handful of fans who've been pretty critical - some who just hate Dwight for his FA antics, some who see the Rockets as rivals and for whatever reason think criticizing on here will help - but it's no more than other teams get. I'm guessing it just seems like more because you're a fan and notice it more than criticism of other teams.

To be honest, now that I think about it, right now I don't think there are any teams getting any real meaningful level of 'hate'. Of course every team has individuals that don't like them, and so everyone thinks their team is being regularly 'hated on' because of that, but there aren't any big currents of general opinion against any teams at the moment like there have been in the past.

beasted86
11-06-2013, 03:57 PM
Is Harden a good defense? No, is he terrible? No.

Is Harden a good defender? No. Is he terrible for a top 15 player? Yes.

He probably has the worst defense of all the so called top 20 players. Him and Irving take the cake. Guys like Dirk, Parker, Love, etc... look very good in comparison.

Clippersfan86
11-06-2013, 04:03 PM
Is Harden a good defender? No. Is he terrible for a top 15 player? Yes.

He probably has the worst defense of all the so called top 20 players. Him and Irving take the cake. Guys like Dirk, Parker, Love, etc... look very good in comparison.

This. It's the fact that he's written in as a top 5 player and called a superstar as to why his defense is getting picked at.

Kyben36
11-06-2013, 04:30 PM
He has clearly never been tought, the idea behind defense is typicaly to create a triangle off the ball, where you keep your eyes on both the ball and the man your guarding, you have to keep tha close enough to close out to the shooter but far enough to help out on d. every simple concept. but he clearly only keeps his eyes on 1 at a time. either the ball or the defender. and doesnt create that triangle.

LAKobeBryant
11-06-2013, 04:34 PM
Wow a YouTube video. Well I'm convinced.

Did you not watch the video, he doesn't even make a effort to catch the shooter, fight over screens or go under or even put his hand up at all even when late to the shooter.

Stunner
11-06-2013, 04:46 PM
Harden moves like his feet are in cement

Bruno
11-06-2013, 05:12 PM
reddit was comparing Hardens defense to Kobe. which is probably not too far off. but Kobe at 32,33,34. When Kobe was 24 he was an elite defender. Hardens gotta step it up or he's going to be a major liability when he's older.

amos1er
11-06-2013, 05:18 PM
This video highlights Harden's defense:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIyiEc1741s

I know Nash was an awful defender too but at least he tried and was bad because he lacked the athleticism for it.

Harden has the athleticism and size to be a great defender in the NBA and yet he's just so bad defensively. People here rip on Kobe's defense but I'm not so sure that Harden is much better.

BTW at :46, you can hear Harden scream "Oh S**T!" after he lost his man cut back door.

It's true. All the haters were so hungry to replace Kobe as the best sg in the NBA that they neglected to factor in for Harden's poor defense. I still maintain that Harden is the most overrated player in the NBA today. Top five my ***.

Byronicle
11-06-2013, 05:18 PM
Lol that was awful defense

Fans will always excuse their players with lame injury alibis

That's the problem with these offensive minded players, they only focus their energy on one end. If Harden was playing hurt then he wouldn't be able to drive in traffic and flail his arms, or risk further injury when he exaggerates his flops

My definition of hurt is when a player cannot physically play. Period. Otherwise you grind through these minor annoyances. Basketball players are soft and its getting real hard to watch guys fall to the ground from a finger flick

Byronicle
11-06-2013, 05:20 PM
reddit was comparing Hardens defense to Kobe. which is probably not too far off. but Kobe at 32,33,34. When Kobe was 24 he was an elite defender. Hardens gotta step it up or he's going to be a major liability when he's older.

Harden is far worse of a defender than Kobe, but Kobe was never an elite defender

amos1er
11-06-2013, 05:22 PM
This. It's the fact that he's written in as a top 5 player and called a superstar as to why his defense is getting picked at.

Only on PSD have I ever seen him ranked a top five player. It's rankings like that which make this site lose a lot of credibility. Dude is not even top ten IMO.

amos1er
11-06-2013, 05:22 PM
Harden is far worse of a defender than Kobe, but Kobe was never an elite defender

You have just lost all credibility.

beasted86
11-06-2013, 05:28 PM
Only on PSD have I ever seen him ranked a top five player. It's rankings like that which make this site lose a lot of credibility. Dude is not even top ten IMO.

I never watched the PSD poll ranking, but that's not where most people are getting that from. ESPN player rankings put him at 4th in the league.

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/9861913/2013-nba-player-rankings-4

amos1er
11-06-2013, 05:28 PM
The only thing Harden does good defensively is flopping. The trait of a coward who is too lazy to expend the energy necessary to guard his man properly. Kobe and Jordan never lowered themselves to that level. What a disgrace.

amos1er
11-06-2013, 05:29 PM
I never watched the PSD poll ranking, but that's not where most people are getting that from. ESPN player rankings put him at 4th in the league.

ESPN is a joke. They also rated Rose 5th in the league even when he didn't play the whole season. They base a lot of their rankings off marketing agenda's clearly.

jp611
11-06-2013, 05:31 PM
Yes James Harden's defense is one of the worst in the league. I watched that game against the Clippers and found myself constantly shaking my head in disgust and neither of these teams were my teams.

He is vastly overrated based only on scoring because he can't guard a chair. He is still a good player, but you are smoking if you think top 10.

Harden isn't this bad on D though.

One game with a few plays doesn't mean he's awful.

I'm sure we could find a reel of plays that show Tony Allen looking like a goon on D too

FOBolous
11-06-2013, 05:32 PM
It's true. All the haters were so hungry to replace Kobe as the best sg in the NBA that they neglected to factor in for Harden's poor defense. I still maintain that Harden is the most overrated player in the NBA today. Top five my ***.

pretty much the only people that don't think Harden's Top 5 or is at least better than Kobe are Kobe fanboys. Harden has holes in his games...no doubt. his defense is suspect. but every player outside of Lebron and CP3 have holes in their games too....Kobe especially for being a ball stopper, the tendency to shoot his team out of the game, and the inability to elevate his teammates. Harden, while being suspect on the defensive end, have a more complete set of offensive skill than Kobe...he can do everything Kobe can do and more.


Only on PSD have I ever seen him ranked a top five player. It's rankings like that which make this site lose a lot of credibility. Dude is not even top ten IMO.

have you been living under a rock? i think you should venture outside of the Lakers forum once in awhile.

jp611
11-06-2013, 05:32 PM
All games matter

1 game is WAYYYY too small of a sample size dude. You know this.

amos1er
11-06-2013, 05:33 PM
Harden isn't this bad on D though.

One game with a few plays doesn't mean he's awful.

I'm sure we could find a reel of plays that show Tony Allen looking like a goon on D too

Just keep telling you self that... Lol.

jp611
11-06-2013, 05:33 PM
A lot of insecure fans in here.

Are we really judging the guys defense off of a Youtube video?

I'd like to hear what Synergy says about his defense.

amos1er
11-06-2013, 05:34 PM
pretty much the only people that don't think Harden's Top 5 and is better than Kobe are Kobe fanboys. Harden has holes in his games...no doubt. his defense is suspect. but every player outside of Lebron and CP3 have holes in their games too....Kobe especially for being a ball stopper, the tendency to shoot his team out of the game, and the inability to elevate his teammates. Harden, while being suspect on the defensive end, have a more complete set of offensive skill than Kobe...he can do everything Kobe can do and more.



have you been living under a rock? i think you should venture outside of the Lakers forum once in awhile.

Lol Clearly you haven't noticed that this critique came from the OP who is a Suns fan.

Chronz
11-06-2013, 05:35 PM
Only on PSD have I ever seen him ranked a top five player. It's rankings like that which make this site lose a lot of credibility. Dude is not even top ten IMO.

ESPN ranked him in the top 5, SI in the Top-11. Is that really such a big decrepancy to utter decide credibility?

If you're in the top-10, your prolly have an argument for top-5 because outside of the trio of CP3, Bron, Durant, nobody else is so clearly ahead of their peers IMO. What other sites are you referring to tho?

jp611
11-06-2013, 05:35 PM
Just keep telling you self that... Lol.

I'm reasonable. I'm not going to use a ****ing Youtube video to bash someone's D. I don't think he's a great defender by any means. But he's capable, and I've seen him play solid D in the past (I remember he even guarded Lebron some in the Heat-OKC series)

Again, I'd like to see more of a sample size and a decent analysis on the guy. Not a video some butthurt fan posted.

Chronz
11-06-2013, 05:36 PM
Lol Clearly you haven't noticed that this critique came from the OP who is a Suns fan.

thats the only thing you took offense to?

ur going soft man

TrueFan420
11-06-2013, 05:36 PM
You have just lost all credibility.

to be elite you need to consistently play elite d kobe only played elite d when he felt like it and as he aged it showed even more. yes everyone gets touched sometimes even if youre elite defensively but kobe in his prime would take games off defensively

Chronz
11-06-2013, 05:39 PM
I'm reasonable. I'm not going to use a ****ing Youtube video to bash someone's D. I don't think he's a great defender by any means. But he's capable, and I've seen him play solid D in the past (I remember he even guarded Lebron some in the Heat-OKC series)

Again, I'd like to see more of a sample size and a decent analysis on the guy. Not a video some butthurt fan posted.

Agreed on the sample size, but that Clips game was really awful in terms of positioning and hustle. Great defenders rarely have these kind of games but I suppose it can happen to anyone if the circumstances are right. Given how polarizing Harden's game seems to be, this is something we should all be keeping an eye on.

FOBolous
11-06-2013, 05:39 PM
Lol Clearly you haven't noticed that this critique came from the OP who is a Suns fan.

i said "pretty much" which means "the majority." i did not say "all." the majority of the people, outside of Kobe fanboys, acknowledges that Harden is a top 5 player or, at the very least, better than Kobe. why are Kobe fanboys having such a hard time coming to term with this? players decline all the time. kobe isn't exempt from this.

here's a video explaining why MOST people, outside of Kobe fanboys, don't consider Kobe the top SG in the league anymore: http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=9907839

jp611
11-06-2013, 05:40 PM
Agreed on the sample size, but that Clips game was really awful in terms of positioning and hustle. Great defenders rarely have these kind of games but I suppose it can happen to anyone if the circumstances are right. Given how polarizing Harden's game seems to be, this is something we should all be keeping an eye on.

Yeah, he's not a great defender, and I doubt he ever will be.

I think he's actually regressed defensively, whether that be effort or defensive system Houston is running, I don't know. But I know he's certainly capable of playing much better defense. And if he's going to be considered elite, he needs to pick it up on that end.

beasted86
11-06-2013, 05:42 PM
ESPN ranked him in the top 5, SI in the Top-11. Is that really such a big decrepancy to utter decide credibility?

If you're in the top-10, your prolly have an argument for top-5 because outside of the trio of CP3, Bron, Durant, nobody else is so clearly ahead of their peers IMO. What other sites are you referring to tho?

Wait... since when has Chris Paul cemented himself as the 3rd best player? Maybe I have missed a few basketball seasons or something. He has only had 1 top 3 season in his career and it was more than a few years ago.

Byronicle
11-06-2013, 05:44 PM
You have just lost all credibility.

Or you just exposed yourself has a classic Kobephile

Hey I love the Showtime Lakers but saying Kobe was elite in his prime defensive days like Iggy, MWP, MJ

...please.

DODGERS&LAKERS
11-06-2013, 05:44 PM
thats the only thing you took offense to?

ur going soft man

lmao

beasted86
11-06-2013, 05:50 PM
Harden isn't this bad on D though.

One game with a few plays doesn't mean he's awful.

I'm sure we could find a reel of plays that show Tony Allen looking like a goon on D too

You are right that maybe its a bit of shellshock.

But I have seen Harden play below average before. That game will be memorable for me because it was that bad. Those replays they are showing didn't do it justice just how bad he was throughout the game. I actually turned this game off mid 4th quarter because I was annoyed at the defense, and it isn't my team.

amos1er
11-06-2013, 06:03 PM
ESPN ranked him in the top 5, SI in the Top-11. Is that really such a big decrepancy to utter decide credibility?

If you're in the top-10, your prolly have an argument for top-5 because outside of the trio of CP3, Bron, Durant, nobody else is so clearly ahead of their peers IMO. What other sites are you referring to tho?

ESPN has no credibility as far as I'm concerned. Rose in the top five last year was a joke. They clearly have marketing agenda's. Easily the least credible sports outlet of all. It truly is unfortunate that they are the largest. I would agree that he is number 11.

amos1er
11-06-2013, 06:05 PM
Wait... since when has Chris Paul cemented himself as the 3rd best player? Maybe I have missed a few basketball seasons or something. He has only had 1 top 3 season in his career and it was more than a few years ago.

Top 3 is subjective for sure. Easily top five for the past few seasons though. Best pg in the NBA undoubtedly.

amos1er
11-06-2013, 06:14 PM
Or you just exposed yourself has a classic Kobephile

Nice false dilemma fallacy. If I don't feel Harden is top 5 than I must be a "Kobephile" right? Lol Could it be that I genuinely feel he's overrated? If only "Kobephile's" feel this way, than why was the OP a Suns fan? Just because I don't agree with ESPN and their marketing agenda's, doesn't mean that my opinion is any less valid.


Hey I love the Showtime Lakers but saying Kobe was elite in his prime defensive days like Iggy, MWP, MJ

...please.

How many first All-NBA Defensive teams did he make again?

amos1er
11-06-2013, 06:23 PM
thats the only thing you took offense to?

ur going soft man

Not soft... Just more concise.

5ass
11-06-2013, 06:23 PM
Nice false dilemma fallacy. If I don't feel Harden is top 5 than I must be a "Kobephile" right? Lol Could it be that I genuinely feel he's overrated? If only "Kobephile's" feel this way, than why was the OP a Suns fan? Just because I don't agree with ESPN and their marketing agenda's, doesn't mean that my opinion is any less valid.



How many first All-NBA Defensive teams did he make again?

And how many did he deserve? He was never the best wing defender in the NBA. You talk about marketing agenda then mention this?

Guppyfighter
11-06-2013, 06:27 PM
Wait, people actually contest CP3 is a top three player?


Jesus christ. This forum.

amos1er
11-06-2013, 06:31 PM
And how many did he deserve? He was never the best wing defender in the NBA. You talk about marketing agenda then mention this?

All Defensive teams are selected by coaches... Not members of the media. Far less chance of marketing agenda manipulation when coaches are the judges as opposed to media puppets who likely take bribes. Besides, With as many first team selections as Kobe has had throughout his career... Surely it's no coincidence that he was a deserving elite defender in his prime. Lol... We know you hate him and all, but give credit where it's due.

5ass
11-06-2013, 06:33 PM
All Defensive teams are selected by coaches... Not members of the media. Far less chance of marketing agenda when coaches are the judges as opposed to media puppets who likely take bribes.

So answer my question, was he the best wing defender all those years? Didnt he net a few all defensive teams when he was actually average to below average defensively?

PurpleLynch
11-06-2013, 06:38 PM
Seems like a luck of hustle and general lazyness...He could be a good defender,but right now is D is below average. PS:Kobe was a great defender,you didn't see him play his whole career if you say the opposite. Right now is defense dropped,but just for declining athleticism. Better defender than Harden anyway.

amos1er
11-06-2013, 06:39 PM
With so many new bandwagon Harden fan boys on this site, I wanted to come up with a name for them...

We already have Kobephiles, Lebronites or Leboners, and Wadebuffs...

Ladies and gentlemen... I give you Hardenauts... Derived from the Greek "Argonauts"

amos1er
11-06-2013, 06:41 PM
So answer my question, was he the best wing defender all those years? Didnt he net a few all defensive teams when he was actually average to below average defensively?

Depends on the season... He was always an elite wing defender for sure though. Elite doesn't necessarily mean the best you know. Whoever said anything about him being the best wing defender. Now you are putting words in my mouth. Bad form.

Byronicle
11-06-2013, 06:48 PM
Nice false dilemma fallacy. If I don't feel Harden is top 5 than I must be a "Kobephile" right? Lol Could it be that I genuinely feel he's overrated? If only "Kobephile's" feel this way, than why was the OP a Suns fan? Just because I don't agree with ESPN and their marketing agenda's, doesn't mean that my opinion is any less valid.

How many first All-NBA Defensive teams did he make again?

Yes lol wrongfully made those first. second at most, NBA can be such a joke sometimes

5ass
11-06-2013, 06:59 PM
Depends on the season... He was always an elite wing defender for sure though. Elite doesn't necessarily mean the best you know. Whoever said anything about him being the best wing defender. Now you are putting words in my mouth. Bad form.

In order to be an elite defender you should atleast be within the best of the best. Kobe was never elite. Bowen, Payton, Iggy ect are elite. Kobe is not on their level. In some seasons he wasnt even close to being elite, yet he still won an all nba defensive team selection.

amos1er
11-06-2013, 07:08 PM
In order to be an elite defender you should atleast be within the best of the best. Kobe was never elite. Bowen, Payton, Iggy ect are elite. Kobe is not on their level. In some seasons he wasnt even close to being elite, yet he still won an all nba defensive team selection.

Payton was in his late 30's during Kobe's prime... Don't see how he was in the conversation from 2004-2010. Iggy didn't really hit his stride defensively until Kobe was losing his stride at around 2009-2010 so thats not a relevant comparison either. As for Bowen... He is also much older than Kobe, but their defensive primes intersected more than the two you mentioned above. A better comparison, but still there are years that Kobe was in his league and on par for sure and even better towards the later 2000's.

Honestly it looks to me like your using a very skewed definition of "elite" in order to discredit Kobe. Why don't you go look up the true meaning on wikipedia and get back to me.

SportsFanatic10
11-06-2013, 07:22 PM
Umm...Wade has never been a great defender so that is a bad example. Wade plays very similar to Harden on defense in that he can't guard a man one on one so he plays the passing lanes looking for steals. The only thing Wade has ever been good at on D is weak side help shot-blocking.

Aside from that, they are both pretty horrendous defenders. It's only now people are starting to notice Harden's lapses on D.

lmao you're funny.

5ass
11-06-2013, 07:23 PM
Payton was in his late 30's during Kobe's prime... Don't see how he was in the conversation from 2004-2010. Iggy didn't really hit his stride defensively until Kobe was losing his stride at around 2009-2010 so thats not a relevant comparison either. As for Bowen... He is also much older than Kobe, but their defensive primes intersected more than the two you mentioned above. A better comparison, but still there are years that Kobe was in his league and on par for sure and even better towards the later 2000's.

Honestly it looks to me like your using a very skewed definition of "elite" in order to discredit Kobe. Why don't you go look up the true meaning on wikipedia and get back to me.

I wasnt listing his competitors i was just mentioning true elite defenders who are clearly better than Kobe ever was. Im not trying to discredit kobe, you are giving him way too much credit on the defensive end.

SportsFanatic10
11-06-2013, 07:26 PM
Or you just exposed yourself has a classic Kobephile

that happened a long time ago. also amos1er thinks youtube videos are the trump card in debates(especially over things like stats), so this is right up his alley lol.

Chronz
11-06-2013, 07:27 PM
Wait... since when has Chris Paul cemented himself as the 3rd best player? Maybe I have missed a few basketball seasons or something. He has only had 1 top 3 season in his career and it was more than a few years ago.
Well I suppose Duncan has a case if we only focus on playoff form.

But CP3 is THE preeminent PG, supremely skilled, clutch as hell, carries his franchise more than any other player not in the top2 and his production backs his greatness, not career greatness but CURRENT greatness.

Whos better? Wade was better when healthy but that seems to be an up and down thing that hasn't carried into the post season for awhile now and his current output isn't impressive at all. Wade is pretty much the only other guy I can think of who can exceed his impact, just waiting for him to show up this year. Outside of him maybe Dwight but looking at him this season, I havent seen the explosion I was hoping for.

Chronz
11-06-2013, 07:29 PM
Not soft... Just more concise.

LOL wat? So u really dont contest Harden being more skilled or whatever he said?

Chronz
11-06-2013, 07:32 PM
ESPN is a joke. They also rated Rose 5th in the league even when he didn't play the whole season. They base a lot of their rankings off marketing agenda's clearly.

ESPN has no credibility as far as I'm concerned. Rose in the top five last year was a joke. They clearly have marketing agenda's. Easily the least credible sports outlet of all. It truly is unfortunate that they are the largest. I would agree that he is number 11.
Yea yea, I get the propaganda your trying to push but ur still ignoring the point being raised, which is that its NOT just THIS site. Its alot of sites and the difference between the top 5 and 11 is very small so your not convincing anyone that its credibility is hurt by arranging them however they please. There is a logical backing to every decision they've made.

Chronz
11-06-2013, 07:35 PM
Payton was in his late 30's during Kobe's prime... Don't see how he was in the conversation from 2004-2010. Iggy didn't really hit his stride defensively until Kobe was losing his stride at around 2009-2010 so thats not a relevant comparison either. As for Bowen... He is also much older than Kobe, but their defensive primes intersected more than the two you mentioned above. A better comparison, but still there are years that Kobe was in his league and on par for sure and even better towards the later 2000's.

Honestly it looks to me like your using a very skewed definition of "elite" in order to discredit Kobe. Why don't you go look up the true meaning on wikipedia and get back to me.
Kobes robbed either Iggy or Battier plenty of times IMO. So have Hughes and Wade tho

amos1er
11-06-2013, 09:03 PM
LOL wat? So u really dont contest Harden being more skilled or whatever he said?

That is a whole other topic. I was more focusing on his defensive short comings.

Guppyfighter
11-06-2013, 09:05 PM
James Harden's defense that game was the worst defensive performance since he first got in Houston. Not really indicative of how well he actually plays defense.

Still bad, but it's hideable with a good scheme at this point. Clippers game is an outlier.

mightybosstone
11-06-2013, 09:05 PM
Harden's defense has become a hot topic because of the Clippers game, but that game was an anomaly in which nobody played much defense. Harden's a poor defender. No one's arguing that. But Harden's defense was especially bad that night, he's been playing with a sore back and looked a step slow and the only reason people noticed is because he was so awful offensively.

9 times out of 10, Harden's poor defense is not nearly as much of a detriment to the team as it was that one game. And he was genuinely terrible all-around in the game, not just defensively.

mightybosstone
11-06-2013, 09:05 PM
James Harden's defense that game was the worst defensive performance since he first got in Houston. Not really indicative of how well he actually plays defense.

Still bad, but it's hideable with a good scheme at this point. Clippers game is an outlier.

Thank you, sir. This guy gets it.

Lakers + Giants
11-06-2013, 09:14 PM
Yea, but he's a top 5 player according to PSD.

amos1er
11-06-2013, 09:18 PM
Yea yea, I get the propaganda your trying to push but ur still ignoring the point being raised, which is that its NOT just THIS site. Its alot of sites and the difference between the top 5 and 11 is very small so your not convincing anyone that its credibility is hurt by arranging them however they please. There is a logical backing to every decision they've made.

What was the logical backing to listing Rose as the 5th best player?

Percentage wise the difference between the top 15 players on any list can be crucial. If there are only 20 "superstars" in the NBA the difference between the top 10 slots can be make or break being in the top 50% of those said "superstars". Therefore When comparing the crem de la crem it does matter.

amos1er
11-06-2013, 09:19 PM
Kobes robbed either Iggy or Battier plenty of times IMO. So have Hughes and Wade tho

That may or may not be true, but the point I was making is that he was considered an elite defender in his prime regardless of having one or two All NBA defensive first teams that he may not have deserved.

amos1er
11-06-2013, 09:20 PM
Yea, but he's a top 5 player according to PSD.

Lol.

sunsfan88
11-07-2013, 03:10 AM
Yea, but he's a top 5 player according to PSD.

Do Rockets fans think he's a top 5 player despite his defensive short comings?

I won't be a hypocrite, I thought Nash was a top 5 player back in 04, 05.

amos1er
11-07-2013, 07:19 AM
Do Rockets fans think he's a top 5 player despite his defensive short comings?

I won't be a hypocrite, I thought Nash was a top 5 player back in 04, 05.

To be fair, Nash in 04, 05 was better offensively than Harden was this past season. He had a much better case for top five back then than Harden does now. Both were sub-par defenders, but Nash was better offensively and led his team to a better record.

FOBolous
11-07-2013, 12:04 PM
To be fair, Nash in 04, 05 was better offensively than Harden was this past season. He had a much better case for top five back then than Harden does now. Both were sub-par defenders, but Nash was better offensively and led his team to a better record.

Kobe's overrated and he sucks. why?

He lacks leadership quality. He lets his ego gets in the way. the list of teammates he feuded with is long...and that list includes a few HOF players and a HOF coach.

He has never been able to established himself as THE best player of his position. If it's not Iverson challenging him, it's Tmac, Wade, and Harden. The only reason why most of those players aren't challenging him anymore isn't because he surpassed them but because injuries derailed their careers.

Kobe's unable to do anything without the help of another star. The years after Shaq left and before Pau arrived, the Lakers sucked. period. However, stars like Lebron, Melo, and Dwight Howard were all able to lead their teams deep into the playoffs by themselves with themselves as the only star. And let's be honest here, 3 of Kobe's rings...he won as Shaq's sidekick.

Will Kobe be in the HOF? yes. Does he rival Michael Jordan? hell no.

Chronz
11-07-2013, 12:24 PM
That may or may not be true, but the point I was making is that he was considered an elite defender in his prime regardless of having one or two All NBA defensive first teams that he may not have deserved.
Oh its true, its damn true..... props if you're a nerd who gets that reference. Anyways, I think even the most ardent kobe believers can admit its more than 1 (lmfao) or 2 unearned defensive teams. I remember frequenting a few laker boards back then (2006-2009+) and many agreed that hes been coasting off reputation for years. Hell you can go back to 2002 or so when Phil starts questioning the validity of his awards.

And Kobe is an elite defender come playoff time, he hasn't been a guy who focuses defensively for years, Id say since 2001 hes stopped being a fully locked in guy, maybe a few years here and there but his defensive impact statistics have never been at say a Iggy or Battier level and his teams haven't really suffered without him on that end. In fact, Kobe's impact was so inconsequential that he could be in his prime and still wind up on a last placed (thats putting it nicely) defensive squad. I dont care what team you put Bron on, its not going to be the worst defensive team in the league and would surely never do better without him on the court.

Come playoffs tho its a different story.



What was the logical backing to listing Rose as the 5th best player?
I think they had Westbrook 5th this year. Even so, Im not seeing whats so illogical about projecting the recovery of a young athletic marvel like Rose. If the biggest gripe you have with a list is the ranking of an injured player then you're discrediting yourself. How about showing me situations with less subjectivity, a comparison of 2 players that have stayed healthy, its one thing for people to hope Rose returns from an injury, quite another to have a guy like Harden ahead of a guy like Durant or something.



Percentage wise the difference between the top 15 players on any list can be crucial.
Maybe, but you would actually have to show me some percentages to get me to buy into that theory. Otherwise Im not seeing this huge discrepancy.


If there are only 20 "superstars" in the NBA the difference between the top 10 slots can be make or break being in the top 50% of those said "superstars". Therefore When comparing the crem de la crem it does matter.
Im not seeing why, like I said, outside the top 3, I dont see this highly differentiated tier. From 5-15 or so, I can buy arguments for several guys over others so Im prolly not gonna trash a list that has the guy I have at 8 to be at 5 or whatever.

NoahH
11-07-2013, 03:58 PM
I don't think Harden is a BAD defender per se. I think he's just lazy. You can clearly see he's just sleeping on defense. He never gets beat really, hes just not paying attention and Reddick (usually) makes a cut and Harden doesn't even notice he's gone. There were no blow bys in the video or anything. That might be the most disturbing thing, he's just lazy on D. IDK if it's him or how the Rockets play.

DODGERS&LAKERS
11-07-2013, 04:06 PM
I don't think Harden is a BAD defender per se. I think he's just lazy. You can clearly see he's just sleeping on defense. He never gets beat really, hes just not paying attention and Reddick (usually) makes a cut and Harden doesn't even notice he's gone. There were no blow bys in the video or anything. That might be the most disturbing thing, he's just lazy on D. IDK if it's him or how the Rockets play.

I would prefer blow byes. Allowing your man to run to where ever he wants on the court without the ball is inexcusable. That means his teammates have to watch their man as well as his. If you get beat off the dribble its at least due to a lack of lateral movement. And your teammates can help you on that.

DODGERS&LAKERS
11-07-2013, 04:07 PM
Kobe's overrated and he sucks. why?

He lacks leadership quality. He lets his ego gets in the way. the list of teammates he feuded with is long...and that list includes a few HOF players and a HOF coach.

He has never been able to established himself as THE best player of his position. If it's not Iverson challenging him, it's Tmac, Wade, and Harden. The only reason why most of those players aren't challenging him anymore isn't because he surpassed them but because injuries derailed their careers.

Kobe's unable to do anything without the help of another star. The years after Shaq left and before Pau arrived, the Lakers sucked. period. However, stars like Lebron, Melo, and Dwight Howard were all able to lead their teams deep into the playoffs by themselves with themselves as the only star. And let's be honest here, 3 of Kobe's rings...he won as Shaq's sidekick.

Will Kobe be in the HOF? yes. Does he rival Michael Jordan? hell no.

Rockets fans are the worst in all of sports. (I think you're on to something, it is easy to generalize)

minato_17
11-07-2013, 05:31 PM
Kobe's overrated and he sucks. why?

He lacks leadership quality. He lets his ego gets in the way. the list of teammates he feuded with is long...and that list includes a few HOF players and a HOF coach.

He has never been able to established himself as THE best player of his position. If it's not Iverson challenging him, it's Tmac, Wade, and Harden. The only reason why most of those players aren't challenging him anymore isn't because he surpassed them but because injuries derailed their careers.

Kobe's unable to do anything without the help of another star. The years after Shaq left and before Pau arrived, the Lakers sucked. period. However, stars like Lebron, Melo, and Dwight Howard were all able to lead their teams deep into the playoffs by themselves with themselves as the only star. And let's be honest here, 3 of Kobe's rings...he won as Shaq's sidekick.

Will Kobe be in the HOF? yes. Does he rival Michael Jordan? hell no.

nice list you got here. now let us got back to the topic which is harden's atrocious defense. :eyebrow:

FOBolous
11-07-2013, 06:11 PM
Rockets fans are the worst in all of sports. (I think you're on to something, it is easy to generalize)

lol well if it really bothers you that much, I stopped referring to Kobe fanboys Dwight haters as Lakers fans and refer them as what they are in my posts.


But yea, I do think that the honeymoon phase of Harden being the new superstar in the league has passed and it's time we hold him accountable for his deficiencies...Harden really needs to work on his defense and limit his TOs if he wants to cement his place as one of the top 5 players in the league.

sunsfan88
11-07-2013, 11:37 PM
Harden with another lackluster performance defensively. No effort at all.

Does he suck on D only in prime time games?

sunsfan88
11-08-2013, 01:55 AM
How about loading a video of his defense from last night? Instead of probably his worst game as a defender.. During that clippers game he ant look like himself at all.. I swear everyday I come to this board someone got something negative about the Rockets up, we have to be the new most hated team, weather it's Dwight, Harden, Lin.. and I'm sure Parsons will up for discussion soon with how bad he has been playing..

It's so many NBA stars who don't play D but everyone like to point the finger at Harden, I guess it's the beard that makes him stand out


all games matter but using footage from a game where no one is playing defense as "evidence" of a player as a bad defender may not be a good idea. cause, let's be real, if anyone wants to claim any player on the Rockets or Clippers are bad defenders...they can find plenty of "evidence" from that game.

What's the excuse for today's game?

Seriously, its frustrating and embarrassing for a guy with that kind of athleticism and size to be so bad on defense!

big_w
11-08-2013, 02:10 AM
Harden was horrendous on D, but he wasn't the only player at fault.

Beverley got torched by a 40 year old nash still recovering knee surgery. Beverley was just getting lit up in that first. quarter.

Not only that, but Beverley was an appalling 1/10 from the field. Harden and Beverley were a combined 10/34 from the field.

There's no point in starting beverley, or even playing him for extended minutes with that kind of a performance. If he can't guard a 40 year old nash who should have retired already, what's he going to do against an elite PG like CP3? CP3 is going to be able to do whatever he wants against Beverley. And they play less than 2 days from now.


I don't see this team contending at all. The "twin towers" are a huge liability on offense. Beverley can't score or defend. Harden goes full on ham refusing to pass the ball to anybody. Parsons thinks he's an all nba player. Mchale has no idea what to do with his rotation. Dwight can't hit free throws. Garcia and Casspi are unreliable.

I don't think the rockets have anything to lose by experimenting with Terence Jones and Donatas at the 4. They can't provide any less offense than Asik, that's for sure.

sunsfan88
11-08-2013, 02:22 AM
To be fair, Nash in 04, 05 was better offensively than Harden was this past season. He had a much better case for top five back then than Harden does now. Both were sub-par defenders, but Nash was better offensively and led his team to a better record.

True.

big_w
11-08-2013, 02:26 AM
Harden has completely tuned out mchale. My guess is mchale is fired at the end of the season, and that both asik and lin are moved by the trade deadline.

The rockets will have the following starters post trade deadline:

harden
beverley
howard
ryan anderson
chandler parsons

A good squad, but not quite championship material. Given what I've seen, I rate the warriors ahead of the rockets this season.

P&GRealist
11-08-2013, 02:39 AM
oh its true, its damn true.....

you suck!...you suck!...you suck!...you suck! ...