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B'sCeltsPatsSox
11-03-2013, 08:02 PM
Now that David Ortiz has become the most-decorated Red Sox player of the 21st century, and now that his transcendent World Series performance has enhanced his Hall of Fame résumé, a question arises: Where does Big Papi rank in the pantheon of all-time Red Sox greats?

Here’s what I’m thinking:

25. Smoky Joe Wood, RHP (1908-15)

A must, if only because of 1912, when he went 34-5 with a 1.91 ERA with 10 shutouts, before winning three games in the World Series. He was 117-56 with the Sox, before his arm went dead and he reinvented himself as a Cleveland outfielder. I’ve always thought if I could be any 20th century athlete at any point in time it would be the 22-year-old Smoky Joe Wood in 1912.

24. Mel Parnell, LHP (1947-56)

123-75 (.621) with a pair of 20-win seasons, including a dazzling 25-7, 2.77 showing in 1949. A Sox lifer and later a Sox broadcaster. Threw a no-no on July 14, 1956.

23. Dwight Evans, RF (1972-90)

Owned right field, as everyone knows (eight Gold Gloves), but he also banged out 2,446 hits and finished with a career OPS of .840, four times posting an OPS over .900. A rarity in that the second half of his long career was more productive offensively than the first.

22. Harry Hooper, RF (1909-20), Hall of Fame

Solid hitter with .281 career average and 2,466 hits. Fame rests on a Gold Glove before there were any. Led league in right-field putouts four times and finished 1-2-3 in putouts nine times. Led league in assists twice. Had 46 career double plays. Chew on that one.

21. Jimmy Collins, 3B and manager (1901-07), Hall of Fame

Renowned fielder said to be death on bunts. Solid .294 career hitter, “Captain,” actually the player-manager of 1903 world champs and ’04 pennant winner, was denied a chance to repeat as world champs because Giants skipper John McGraw, an American League hater, refused to play. First third baseman elected to the Hall.

20. Nomar Garciaparra, SS (1996-2004)

Would that it had ended better. Sox career totals of .323 with a .923 OPS. Huge back-to-back batting crowns in 1999-2000 (.357, .372) with back-to-back OPS totals over 1.000. Phenomenal fan favorite, even today.

19. Dom DiMaggio, CF (1940-42, 1946-53)

Seven-time All-Star. Superb leadoff man and brilliant fielder. Led league in assists four times. Perhaps not “better than his brother Joe,” as the song says, but pretty damn good. Ted and Pesky swore he belonged in the Hall.

18. Dustin Pedroia, 2B (2006-)

Absolutely. 2008 MVP always transcends his numbers. Tough out with a live bat and now a three-time Gold Glover. Career OPS of .823. Not bad for a 5-foot-6-inch guy. Would have fit in perfectly with the 1903 champs.

17. Luis Tiant, RHP (1971-78)

El Tiante. 122-81 as Red Sox hurler with three 20-win seasons. 26 Sox shutouts — led league three times overall — and 113 complete games. Big-game pitcher extraordinaire. Complete career with Indians, Twins, Sox, Yankees, Pirates, and Angels merits Cooperstown.

16. Carlton Fisk, C (1969-80)

Hall of Fame. Best Sawx catchah evah, no ahgument. Memory of Game 6 home run is indelible. Seven-time All-Star here. Did any catcher, anywhere, make more athletic plays? Sox career OPS: .837. My favorite Fisk achievement: led league with nine triples in 1972. Rumor has it he spent 13 additional years in Chicago.

15. Johnny Pesky, SS-3B (1942, 1946-52)

Led league in hits each of his first three years. Sox career totals of .313 batting average with on-base percentage of .401. “Pesky Pole” HRs a quasi-myth but it makes for a good story. Give him his three World War II years and he’s knocking on Cooperstown door. Evolved into Mr. Red Sox before his death in 2012.

14. Joe Cronin, SS and manager (1935-45), Hall of Fame

Player-manager with Sox career numbers of .300 batting average and an .878 OPS. Averaged 103 RBIs from 1937-41. Once had pinch-hit homers in both games of a doubleheader (kiddies, ask grandpa).

13. Bobby Doerr, 2B (1937-51), Hall of Fame

Nine-time All-Star. Primo RBI man with six years over 100, including 120 in 1950. Led league in putouts four times and finished second six other years. Still the best 2B in Sox history.

12. Cy Young, RHP (1901-08), Hall of Fame

Hey, he’s CY YOUNG! Won 192 games (tied for franchise lead with Roger Clemens) with 2.00 ERA. Threw perfect game in 1904. Hey, he’s CY YOUNG.

11. Roger Clemens, RHP (1984-96)

Shares franchise win total (192) with Cy Young. Won three Cy Young Awards (1986, ’87, ’91). Five-time shutout leader with Red Sox. His 1986 (24-4, 2.48, 0.969 WHIP) ranks among Sox’ all-time best.

10. Wade Boggs, 3B (1982-92), Hall of Fame

The ultimate get-on-base machine. Career Red Sox OBP of .428. Led league in OBP six times, to go with five batting titles. Averaged getting on base 318 times a year from 1983-89. No, young’uns, I’m not making that up. Sox career average: .338. Made himself into a very accomplished fielder.

9. Jimmie Foxx, 1B (1936-42), Hall of Fame

Mostly thought of as a Philadelphia A, he averaged 36 HRs and 129 RBIs in his first six years with the Red Sox, highlighted by his 1938 body of work: .349, 50, 175. Has to rank high.

8. Jim Rice, LF (1974-89), Hall of Fame

First-rate masher who had eight 100-RBI seasons and who had a sick 406 total bases in 1978, when he was an MVP. Led league in total bases four times and placed 1-2-3 in extra-base hits five times.

7. Manny Ramirez, LF (2001-08)

Sox career OPS of .999. Need we say more? MVP of 2004 World Series. Led league in OBP and OPS three times each. Smashed 11 of his 29 career postseason homers in Sox uniform. Most improbable combo of batting technician and basic goofball mind-set we’ve ever known.

6. Tris Speaker, CF (1907-15), Hall of Fame

Sox career totals of .337 batting average and .896 OPS. Master fielder who led league in outfield putouts five times and assists three times, and who led the league in center-field double plays four times, including some unassisted jobs.

5. Pedro Martinez, RHP (1998-2004)

117-37 (.760) with 0.978 WHIP as Sox twirler. Led league in ERA, WHIP, and strikeouts per nine innings four times each with Sox, and strikeout/walk ratio three times. Cy Youngs? Yup, 1999 and 2000. His best was the best Sox pitching ever.

4. David Ortiz, DH (2003-)

Postseason exploits kinda help his Cooperstown bid. Regular-season Sox career OPS: .962. Postseason career OPS (all with Sox): .962 (swear to God). Joins the Babe as three-time Sox Series winners. Of course, the No. 34 is going up. Competition among sculptors for statue job commences now.

3. Babe Ruth, LHP, OF (1914-19), Hall of Fame

Was 89-46, 2.19 as standout LHP while knocking out .981 OPS. I’m talking with the Sox, yes. Was heading to the Hall as a pitcher when placed in OF. World Series: 3-0, 0.87 with 0.935 WHIP. ’Nuff said.

2. Carl Yastrzemski, LF, 1B (1961-83), Hall of Fame

In case you were wondering, postseason OPS: 1.047. Led league in OBP five times and in OPS four times. Led league in doubles and runs three times each, and hits and walks twice each. 3,419 hits and 452 HRs. Won seven Gold Gloves, including one at age 37. Led league in assists eight times. He did more than just hang around 23 years. Also: 1967.

1. Ted Williams, LF (1939-42, 1946-60), Hall of Fame

We could start and end with this: career OPS, 1.116. Led league in OBP 12 times. Is it necessary to continue? Hit .388 with .526 OBP in 1957 at age 38/39. More than ’nuff said.

Yes, I know. Where’s Fred Lynn? Frank Malzone? Even Jon Lester (100-56, .641)? You have the right to an opinion. But this space belongs to me.

Link (http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2013/11/02/picking-greatest-red-sox-all-time/eaUqqGU7Tze06QOiupJl2K/story.html)

Not an easy list to make, but it looks pretty good. Lester would probably make this within the next couple of seasons if he's still here.

bagwell368
11-03-2013, 09:13 PM
Jim Rice about 6-9 slots too high, Evans about 5-8 too low. Tiant too low too. In no way does Hooper belong in front of Evans. Clemens too low.

Overall better than expected, I used to venerate Ryan, over the past 5-6 years I've learned to cringe. His comments on Bird v Pierce and advanced baseball stats are sub moronic.

BostonSports96
11-03-2013, 10:59 PM
Jim Rice about 6-9 slots too high, Evans about 5-8 too low. Tiant too low too. In no way does Hooper belong in front of Evans. Clemens too low.

Overall better than expected, I used to venerate Ryan, over the past 5-6 years I've learned to cringe. His comments on Bird v Pierce and advanced baseball stats are sub moronic.

Never liked Ryan. Thinks he knows everything, is an ******* in person (so I'm told/so I've heard).

bagwell368
11-03-2013, 11:32 PM
Never liked Ryan. Thinks he knows everything, is an ******* in person (so I'm told/so I've heard).

I'm talking the 1970's and 1980's.

I think it's time to dust off my Jim Rice vs Dwight Evans tome:

Why is Jim Ed Rice in the HOF, and Dwight Evans not in the HOF? Having seen them both play most of their games in a Red Sox uniform, I would have laughed at the question at the end of the 1978 season. By mid 1982 I started to wish that Rice would just strike out and not hit into yet another double play. I started to watch Evans more than Rice for his patience in selecting pitches to hit, and his strike zone judgment. He never hit 40 HR as Rice had, but Evans was more consistent, and a better fielder. By 1990 I had written them both off as HOF candidates, and threw Fred Lynn into that group as well.

Reputation, not reality is the first answer. By reputation Jim Ed Rice was the more explosive and “feared hitter” of his era. Rice’s reputation is based on the period of: 1975-1986. Out of this twelve year span, six years were notable: ‘75, ’77, ’78, ’79, ’83, ’86. Some years were much more average: ‘76, ’80, ’81, ’84, and ’85. George Brett and Eddie Murray overlapped Rice, and both were better hitters and players in that window and overall – but I guess they were more cuddly or something. Other AL hitters that overlapped the early years: Carew, Jackson, Singleton, and Cooper and later: Mattingly, Winfield, Henderson, and Boggs could also claim superiority to Rice for at least a few years, some longer. Reputation is smoke, mirrors, timing, and glamor. Rice had them in spades over Evans, but, is that the way we should decide on who is in or out of the HOF?

Twisted Perceptions. Rice came up with Fred Lynn and formed one of the most famous rookie duos in the history of the sport – the “gold dust twins”, and they captured the imagination of fans around the country, not just Boston. Rice established himself as a slugger at a young age (3 of Rice’s best 4 seasons came in his first 5 years), but slid downhill from the start of 1980 onward to retirement after 1989 (age 27-36). Snapping his bat on a check swing (twice), his glowering countenance, and charging into the LF stands in Yankee Stadium in successful search of his pilfered hat kept fueling his reputation. The fact is at the end of the 1979 season (5 full seasons) Rice had 3456 PA’s (38.15% of his career) with 22.0 rWAR (53% of his career total). The final 10 years of his career in 5602 PA’s he earned a just 19.5 rWAR. How many HOF hitters were essentially done being elite (or near elite) before age 27? How many HOF corner OF’s in the live ball era finished in the top 7 in offensive rWAR just one time or less? The answer is as of now – one - Lou Brock. In Brocks defense he is among the greatest World Series positional player of the last 60 years with a slash of .391/.424/.655 and 14 SB’s in 92 PA’s. By comparison Rice’s post season records are weak .225/.313/.366 in 80 PA. FYI: Evans post season was better than Rice’s: .239/.333/.425 in 130 PA’s.

Evans came up a few years earlier then Rice, and didn’t stick right away. Evans was a spotty hitter but great fielding RF (in the largest RF in all of baseball - and very difficult in day games). He was seen as a nice complimentary piece, and not much more. The first pro outside of Boston to really notice Evans was Sparky Anderson in 1975. He had heard all about Yaz, Tiant, Rice, and Lynn. But to him, Evans was the most impressive of all the Sox in the classic ’75 WS. Evans didn’t have a really fine offensive year until his 9th year at age 29. In fact Evans first 10 years offensively matches Rice’s last 10 fairly well. Consider Evans with his best year’s front loaded like Rice’s. What would people have thought then? Let’s look at what the modern rWAR numbers say:

Both players’ career hierarchically listed from high to low per rWAR:

JERice: 7.0, 5.9, 5.7, 5.1, 4.3, 3.0, 2.9, 2.3, 2.0, 1.7, 1.2, 1.1, 0.2, 0.0, -0.1, -0.8
Evans: 6.8, 6.3, 5.0, 4.9, 4.6, 4.5, 4.3, 3.4, 3.2, 3.2, 3.0, 2.9, 2.8, 2.2, 1.8, 0.8, 0.7, 0.7, 0.5 0.2

Using rWAR, Rice was better 3 years out of 16 head to head, and Evans had the rest. Using fWAR which is kinder to Rice still yields just 4 years out of 16 head to head in favor of Rice. Some will say the reason for this is defense, or that Evans had 1511 more career PA’s (~2.3 years) then Rice, or that metrics can’t measure intangibles. In dWAR Evans has a 6.9 > 2.3 advantage, a nice advantage, but not huge. In oWAR Evans has a solid lead: 54.9 > 39.2. EQ’ing out the extra PA’s for Evans, you get these results from these 4 overall player value rating systems:

rWAR Evans 21.6% more valuable per PA then Rice.
Prospectus WARP3 Evans 17.8% more valuable per PA then Rice
fWAR Evans 8.3% more valuable per PA then Rice

Averaging these rating systems out gives us an answer of each and every one of Evans PA’s on average was 15.9% more valuable then Rice’s.

When a player is better by rate – 15.9% better WAR on 14.3% more PA then that player (Evans) was a better player than the player compared against (Rice). Let’s sift through some categories to be sure these player value ratings have the proper foundation.

I. Offensive Career rate/counting stats:

Evans and Rice in near tie:

Evans wRC 1631.5 vs. Rice wRC 1407.5; Rice has a .007% advantage adjusted for PA
Evans OPS+ 127 (202th all time); Rice OPS+ 128 (192nd all time)
Evans wOBA .374; Rice wOBA .375
But wait, given that OBP is ~1.7x as important as SLG in OPS+ calculations:
Player vs League (Evans is 4% better):
Evans OBP .370 > Lg .335 Lg (+.035); SLG .470 > Lg .404 (+.066)
Rice OBP .352 > Lg .337 (+.015); SLG .502 > Lg .407 (+.095)
Neutralized stats (741 runs per year norm) (Evans has a 4.2% advantage):
Evans: .277/.377/.479
JERice: .290/.344/.488

Note on OBP: There is just no getting around the fact that Evans worked BB’s at a 13.2% average in his career, while Rice only got 7.4%. Rice was a very impatient hitter, often swinging at balls out of the strike zone, throwing him a fastball strike on the first pitch became an obvious no-no after a few years.

Evans tops Rice in RC/G:
Evans RC/G 6.2 > Rice: RC/G 6.0; Evans has a 3.2% advantage over Rice.

Evans OWP .646 (220th all time) > Rice OWP .627 (297th all time); Evans 3% advantage over Rice.
Lets now look at these raw counting stats, equipoise would be Rice at 85.7% of Evans totals:
Evans: EQR 1606: JERice: 1367 – 85.1%

BRAR:: Evans: 751; Rice: 618 – 82.3%
BtWin: Evans: 35.7; Rice 29.0 – 81.2%
BtRns: Evans: 363.3; Rice 295.7 – 81.3%
BRAA: Evans: 445; Rice: 350 – 78.7%
RE24:: Evans: 366.5; Rice: 260.8 – 71.2%
REW: Evans 35.2; Rice 24.6 – 69.9%
Evans BB% 13.2 > Rice BB% 7.4%
Evans K% > Rice K% 16.1%
In terms of career rate/counting stats, it’s a victory for Evans.

II. 5 year Offensive Peak (per RC): (Rice over Evans)

Here is a list of the best 5 RC (runs created) seasons of each player, any order:

Evans – 134, 134, 132, 112, 104 = 616 (7 years at/over 100)
JERice – 147, 138, 136, 115, 113 = 649 (5 years at/over 100)
Evans vs Rice peak 5 years - in order:
Evans – 132, 112, 100, 134, 104 = 582
JERice – 092, 083, 136, 147, 138 = 596
Rice averaged 6.6 Runs Per Year more than Evans in their respective peak 5 years any order peak, but just 2.8 RPY more best 5 in a row. Rice’s offensive peak was slightly higher.

Sadly for Evans, one of his best years looked to be the strike year – 1981. If you EQ for games missed he gets ~127 RC – and it’s a virtual tie with Rice for peak 5 any order. 1981 was Evans big chance. He had his best finish in the MVP voting (3rd), and was 1st in TB, HR, BB, OPS, RC; 2nd in OBP, OPS+, Runs; 3rd in SLG and 4th in RBI. Another 11 HR that year would have given him 396 for his career, perhaps enough to stick around for 400.

III: Offense non 5 year peak years (core/average years): (Evans over Rice solidly)

Evans – 100, 100, 95, 85, 79, 74, 71, 69, 66, 65 = 804
JERice – 098, 092, 88, 83, 83, 81, 64, 63, 55, 20 = 727
6.9 runs for Evans over Rice on average. Enough to blow away Rice’s edge in non consecutive in the peak 5 year period, and then some.

Least effective years:
Evans: 60, 45, 43, 36, 8; JERice: 8; 192 vs. 8 – obviously huge edge for Evans.

Summary: It’s clear that Rice enjoys a narrow edge at the very peak 5 years offensively over Evans. It’s also clear that by the 6th year and beyond, the offensive numbers strongly favor Evans. Evans wins the career battle easily, Rice takes out a narrow victory in 5 year non consecutive peak.

Question:

So you ask - if Evans is so great, why does Rice have him in BA, SLG, RBI, reputation, and a HOF plaque?
Evans raw: .272 BA / .470 SLG / 1384 RBI
JERice raw: .298 BA / .502 SLG / 1541 RBI

Answers for RBI and reputation:

#1: Batting order placement (games at various positions in order)
Pos - DE---- JR:
1st – 160 -- 003
2nd – 565 -- 003
3rd – 211 -- 882
4th – 152 -- 677
5th – 322 -- 263
6th – 429 -- 161
7th – 333 -- 088
8th – 297 -- 006
9th – 137 -– 006

Evans batted in places where he could score more runs (1 & 2 due to his OBP), but also more often in places where RBI’s are somewhat harder to get (6-9) then the prime #3-#4 slots -- (Evans had just 13.9% of his career PA’s at 3-4, while Rice had 74.6% at 3-4. Even in 1986, after a string of 5 out of 6 years at 124 or more OPS+ for Evans (124, 162, 148, 106, 147, 124) better then Rice’s OPS+ (122, 116, 130, 141, 112, 123).

Evans was still getting dissed:
Rice: 3rd: 81 PA; 4th: 612
Evans: 1st: 160 PA; 5th: 95 PA; 6th: 354 PA
Evans was .259/.376/.476 HR: 26
Rice was .324/.384/.489 HR: 20

Given the personnel /performance the top 5 hitters in the line-up should have been:
Boggs, Barrett, Rice, Evans, Baylor

Another issue with Evans appearing lower overall in the order: the loss of valuable PA’s in a typical year, which resulted in less runs and RBI’s (counting stats) for Evans due to less opportunity. Evans early weakness as a hitter and later flexibility worked against him getting a really solid place in the order - unlike Rice who got his early. Evans most common slots by group was 6-7-8, and Rice 3-4 – that’s about 3.5 slots apart on average – that’s about 55 PA’s per season lost - a serious loss outside of Evans’s control - moreover his performance argued for better placement in particular after his age 29 season. Giving the prime 3 and 4 slots to Rice or Evans per performance and not perception, Rice’s counting totals would be less and Evans would be more – all other things being equal.

Evans scored 1530 neutralized runs compared to 1268 for Rice, and had .377 OBP compared to .344 for Rice (neutralized). In the average fan’s mind, runs and OBP are less important than RBI, BA, and SLG. But runs and RBI’s are a different side of the same coin, and Evans OBP advantage cancels Rice’s SLG, and BA doesn’t count for that much.

IV: Base running: tie

One startling thing about Rice most people don’t talk about: GDIP. His is 5th all time at 315, but his percentage of GDP is the 2nd highest I could find among players with over 5000 career PA. The average ML averages for GDP in their time was 11% (possible/actual), Evans hit into 10%, Rice a staggering 15%. Rice holds the consecutive 4 year record for GDP’s BTW.
Neither stole a lot – Evans more SB’s but his CS rate was worse than Rice. Rice has a slight edge in the *** stat – but then again Evans played deeper into his decline phase. My memory says Evans was a bit quicker base to base and paid more attention on base then Rice. Overall not a strong suit for either, a tie.

V: Defense: Evans (big edge)

Evans:
FG TZ: 65
8 GG’s
Rate 103 – 3% above average RF (11 years above average, 7 below (1 due to injury, 4 old age)
RAR in RF 271 – runs saved above replacement
RAA in RF 66 – runs saved above average player.

Rice:
FG TZ: 22
0 GG
Rate 96 – 4% below average LF (3 years above average, 8 below)
RAR 102 – runs saved above replacement level
RAA -55 – runs saved above average player

12% of Evans’s games at DH (not regularly until age 37)
34.4% of Rice’s games at DH, regularly starting in ’75 at age 22. A player that can’t play in the field is a disadvantage to his team. If Rice had played as many games (by percent) as Evans in the field what is the number now? -80? Not good, not at all good.

Evans RAA in RF over 100 games (11 seasons): 15, 24, 6, 9, 12, 1, 15, 7, -8, 7, -12 = 76
JERice RAA in LF over 90 games (11 seasons): -10, -11, 3, -8, -4, 0, -14, -3, 11, -11, 5, -12 = -54

Evans core career as a RF he saved 76 runs with his glove or an average of 6.9 runs per season.
Rice’s core career as a LF he caused 54 runs to be let up or 4.9 runs average lost per season.

A 10.8 run differential per season may not sound like much, but given the tight battle in offense, it transforms the argument completely.
Going to the 5 year any order best Fielding:
Evans TZ: 24, 23, 19, 14, 13 (five more years w/ positive scores)
Rice TZ: 12, 10, 8, 7, 6 (Rice’s ONLY positive scores)

Final Summary:

Rice has a lead in 5 year peak offense, which could be mitigated to almost zero if you give Evans his missing games of 1980 (not a peak year for Rice so it wouldn’t help him) – or we look at five years consecutive. There is also the extra PA’s Rice accrued during many of these years when Evans was hitting 6th-9th to consider.

Over the entire career the hitting stats from a rate standpoint are very similar with Evans holding the advantage of more playing time at a slightly higher rate making him more valuable career wise – with ease.

Finally – defense, Evans is one of the dozen best RF’ers of the past 60 years. Add those runs into a close battle, and viola! It’s no longer close. Evans was a better player for a longer period then Rice. He also tops Rice handily in seasons laid out hierarchically when including offense and defense. What if they both started the same year in the same progression – who is being argued for the HOF now?

As so much else, Rice got into the HOF on reputation, not reality, with the added recoil against the steroid generation. Evans didn’t get any support when he came up, and he fell off the ballot because he wasn’t a wonderful hitter at the start, took walks when they were not in fashion, and hit in the spot they told him too.

I believe it’s clear that Dwight Evans was a better player than Jim Rice. Do I want Dwight Evans in the HOF? No, he does not belong, but he belongs more than Jim Ed Rice any day of the week.

todu82
11-04-2013, 03:24 PM
I'd have Speaker higher than #6 and Ortiz a little lower.

chomaru
11-09-2013, 07:34 PM
Stealing this coin from the sports guy but was Greenwell so overrated in the past that he has become underrated? How close would he be knocking on this top 25?

bagwell368
11-09-2013, 11:11 PM
Stealing this coin from the sports guy but was Greenwell so overrated in the past that he has become underrated? How close would he be knocking on this top 25?

38-46 range perhaps. Some injuries. Some power loss. Poor playoffs. Didn't win the WS. Never delivered on promise of '88.

chomaru
11-10-2013, 09:59 AM
38-46 range perhaps. Some injuries. Some power loss. Poor playoffs. Didn't win the WS. Never delivered on promise of '88.

I was looking at his numbers yesterday and some of them are similar to Ellsbury's, would Greenwell be looking at a 100 mill payday if he was a FA today?

bagwell368
11-10-2013, 10:44 AM
I was looking at his numbers yesterday and some of them are similar to Ellsbury's, would Greenwell be looking at a 100 mill payday if he was a FA today?

Couldn't play CF or RF. In short time he did well at 1-2 in the order, meh base stealer, although he had crazy legs he was kind of stupid judgement wise out there. Reall, sort of a cement head, but I liked him.

If he could have had '89, '90, '93, followed by '88 as his walk year he would have signed for a lot. But he didn't too many meh years in the heart of his career. Done at 32.

geoffreyfeldman
11-23-2013, 08:35 PM
Jim Rice about 6-9 slots too high, Evans about 5-8 too low. Tiant too low too. In no way does Hooper belong in front of Evans. Clemens too low.

Overall better than expected, I used to venerate Ryan, over the past 5-6 years I've learned to cringe. His comments on Bird v Pierce and advanced baseball stats are sub moronic.

In a must win situation I would prefer Tiant to Clemens.

bagwell368
11-23-2013, 09:15 PM
In a must win situation I would prefer Tiant to Clemens.

Can't disagree. I saw him out duel Palmer a few times in big games. His ~164 pitch gem vs the Reds in '75 when he had nothing was amazing. I remember him from '68 before he hurt his arm, gas... Then later guile, and ten good FB's a game.