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View Full Version : Is the offensive player too protected/babied in todays game?



dwilly4rilly
11-01-2013, 12:25 AM
It seems to me that more and more fouls are being called for the offensive player, to the point that it is very hard to play tough D these days. I am so tired of seeing players like KD and CP3 draw fouls when they swing there arms under the defenders hand and flail up a shot. Or when CP3, Tony Parker, and others run or jump completely out of their normal path to initiate contact with a defender and get awarded with free throws. An offensive player should not be awarded for anything other than a foul on a normal basketball move or natural shooting motion. Everything else falls into the flop category as far as I'm concerned. It isn't basketball and it cheapens the game. Opinions?

TheMightyHumph
11-01-2013, 12:40 PM
It seems that the NBA is starting to enforce the rules that hinder the scorers this season.

Calling moving picks, traveling and palming more often.

The flagrant foul calls are getting somewhat out of hand, though.

SPURSFAN1
11-01-2013, 12:51 PM
That's getting the kobe treatment. Superstars get all the calls and then some. It's nothing new.

Goose17
11-01-2013, 12:55 PM
The only thing that bothers me is when players I.E CP3, start to flail their arms around to emphasize the fact that they're getting fouled to make sure the call goes their way.

Overall though I don't think there's any issue.

I Rock Shaqs
11-01-2013, 01:04 PM
The only thing that bothers me is when players I.E CP3, start to flail their arms around to emphasize the fact that they're getting fouled to make sure the call does their way.

Overall though I don't think there's any issue.

Omg he flops almost as much as Pierce.

lamzoka
11-01-2013, 01:12 PM
I think the most ridiculous call this season so far is the DELAY OF GAME. its gonna cost a team a playoff victory.

MygirlhatesCod
11-01-2013, 01:24 PM
it does take a dump on the game when a player drives to the hole and intentionally looks for contact which is what happens at least 80% of the time with slashing type players ie most of the superstars. these offensive flops is what made wade and manu stars. it not only makes the game cheap but it makes the game drag forever. the NBA should really at least attempt to stop this or instead just make each game a free throw challenge.

ghettosean
11-01-2013, 01:24 PM
I couldn't agree more that this kind of garbage cheapens the game... If you look in Jordans time in the NBA it was a HARD GAME and a PHYSICAL GAME. Now a days all you have to do is flail around or act your way to the free throw line. It's honestly getting pathetic which is why the NBA is starting to crack down on it (not that they are doing a great job but they are trying at least). Wade, CP3, Lebron (though he wasn't as bad last year), Manu, Pierce, Battier... These guys are just terrific actors.

It bothers me when people compare players of this time to the all time greats and all I have to say is if they played in the league when it was a MANS GAME there is no way they would be putting up some of the stats they are now... NOT EVEN CLOSE. You have guys now a days looking there best to try and get contact so they can get a foul and people forget that Jordan was so magical because he would run into traffic and take a beating and still somehow get the ball in the basket.

The game sure has changed since then and not for the best... It's like a bunch of ballerina's out there.

Max.This
11-01-2013, 01:35 PM
Cp3 can dish and be aggressive with his opponents on defense but god forbid someone plays the same way with him, this dude goes flying into the stands. Noone wants to see a game of defense. The nba caters to the majority because its all about entertainment. People want to see a game where Paul drops 40 and Curry drops 40.

MassoDio
11-01-2013, 01:52 PM
Yes. I don't really want to elaborate, as most of it has been said already and I get irritated just thinking about it.

So the simple answer is yes to the question posed by the OP.

Chronz
11-01-2013, 02:45 PM
Every era you go back the game was more physical. I just hope people complaining about today's NBA know just how sissy the 90's and 80's look in comparison to the older eras. Just keep it in perspective people.


And no, they aren't babied, I dont care what people identify as "normal" basketball moves, if you have the intellect and spatial understanding to draw legit fouls, then you should do so.

Chronz
11-01-2013, 02:54 PM
It bothers me when people compare players of this time to the all time greats and all I have to say is if they played in the league when it was a MANS GAME there is no way they would be putting up some of the stats they are now... NOT EVEN CLOSE.
LOL so when exactly did this magical timeline occur? Just when did the sport diverge from a "Mans" game to a game for ballerinas? Show me the exact year it occurred and the statistical relevance it had on players. Plz, lots of players from today would thrive even more in the era where you couldn't even defend freely and had PLENTY more fast break opportunities against inferior athletes.


You have guys now a days looking there best to try and get contact so they can get a foul and people forget that Jordan was so magical because he would run into traffic and take a beating and still somehow get the ball in the basket.
Right because people never say MJ took the star whistle to new heights.


The game sure has changed since then and not for the best... It's like a bunch of ballerina's out there.
I disagree, you keep the old rules with todays superior athletes and defenses and you probably have a product thats losing fans by the buttload.

ghettosean
11-01-2013, 03:42 PM
LOL so when exactly did this magical timeline occur? Just when did the sport diverge from a "Mans" game to a game for ballerinas? Show me the exact year it occurred and the statistical relevance it had on players. Plz, lots of players from today would thrive even more in the era where you couldn't even defend freely and had PLENTY more fast break opportunities against inferior athletes.


Right because people never say MJ took the star whistle to new heights.


I disagree, you keep the old rules with todays superior athletes and defenses and you probably have a product thats losing fans by the buttload.

As soon as hand checking was no longer legal that is when things turned into a flopping match.... Also Jordan got whistles but he also got hammered in the paint like crazy and STILL scored! He didn't sit on the ground or PRETEND to get hit like todays athletes and I can send you lots of clips of Bosh, Lebron, Wade, CP3, Griffen... etc.... All putting on a show to get a call from the refs.

Jordan put basketball on the map again dude when these rules were in effect to say that todays players would not be able to make basketball exciting with the rules of old is proving my point exactly they would lose fans by the buttload because all they can do now a days is wave their arms in the air or pretend they got hit by a truck and run to the free throw line. This is what the SUPERIOR athletes of today you are talking about are doing... LOL... You don't need much athletic ability to fall on your butt and cry!

Also lets not forget how many of the top players of all time Jordan played against when you are talking of --> SUPERIOR athletes of today.

Goose17
11-01-2013, 03:48 PM
Ditching hand checking is one of the best things the game could have done. Rose, Westbrook, Lillard, Hornets CP3, none of these guys would be as entertaining.

ghettosean
11-01-2013, 03:52 PM
Ditching hand checking is one of the best things the game could have done. Rose, Westbrook, Lillard, Hornets CP3, none of these guys would be as entertaining.

I can say CP3 for sure yes but the other guys you mentioned are more hardnosed players so I'm not so sure... I think we would probably have more Allen Iverson types in the NBA (meaning playing hard and working for everything... Not going into a chucking convo) than CP3's who like to flop around like a fish.

The game has really opened itself up to look like a soap opera school more than a sport... You shouldn't have guys proud that they get a bogus call like we've seen over the years. That kind of crap is ruining the quality of the game not hand checking.

Goose17
11-01-2013, 03:57 PM
I can say CP3 for sure yes but the other guys you mentioned are more hardnosed players so I'm not so sure... I think we would probably have more Allen Iverson types in the NBA (meaning playing hard and working for everything... Not going into a chucking convo) than CP3's who like to flop around like a fish.

The game has really opened itself up to look like a soap opera school more than a sport... You shouldn't have guys proud that they get a bogus call like we've seen over the years. That kind of crap is ruining the quality of the game not hand checking.

Flopping and drawing fouls isn't the same thing though, some guys are just really good at drawing fouls, Wades pump fake followed by leaning in to the defender for example.

I appreciate guys who are savvy enough to draw fouls.

Flopping is a bad thing. But hand checking won't change that, there was flopping back then as well.

Chronz
11-01-2013, 03:57 PM
AI played through both eras you spoke of. Handchecking helped his game, but it didn't transform him, spare me the hyperbole when discussing something as specific as statistical supremacy, CP3 would still be the best PG in ANY era, lol at questioning his toughness just because he exaggerates contact and plays mind games with opponents.

ghettosean
11-01-2013, 04:02 PM
Flopping and drawing fouls isn't the same thing though, some guys are just really good at drawing fouls, Wades pump fake followed by leaning in to the defender for example.

I appreciate guys who are savvy enough to draw fouls.

Flopping is a bad thing. But hand checking won't change that, there was flopping back then as well.

Agreed there was flopping back in the day as well but now it's just over blown and gone to a new level.... Since the game has been a lot less physical and any little bit of contact will get you a foul (pretty much when hand checking made it's exit) it's been a flip flop show. The OP's question was directed towards this and just throwing in my 2 cents basically saying todays game is too soft.

ghettosean
11-01-2013, 04:14 PM
AI played through both eras you spoke of. Handchecking helped his game, but it didn't transform him, spare me the hyperbole when discussing something as specific as statistical supremacy, CP3 would still be the best PG in ANY era, lol at questioning his toughness just because he exaggerates contact and plays mind games with opponents.

The poster was talking towards the lack of excitement there would be if hand checking was still in effect. Though I don't think CP3 is taking out Magic, Isiah or Stockton in there primes and honestly I don't know how effective he would be either in a more physical game or if he could even take the punishment... He would still be what he is today he just wouldn't be going in the middle to take the type of punishment Iverson used to take because waving your arms and crying ain't going to get you much in that era.

Also how can you possibly ignore statistics when comparing the 2 different era's and players from today to past players there is no way that some of the leagues players today would be getting the type of stats they are in the Jordan era. Just no way!

Chronz
11-01-2013, 05:18 PM
The poster was talking towards the lack of excitement there would be if hand checking was still in effect.
Yes, it coincides with the whole era vs era thing.



Though I don't think CP3 is taking out Magic, Isiah or Stockton in there primes and honestly I don't know how effective he would be either in a more physical game or if he could even take the punishment...
I didn't mean to make a direct comparison, by any era I meant vs his peers today (transplanted into their eras), tho honestly, I dont think the punishment difference is all that severe, a more slender league, less half court grind throughout a regular season, defenses limited in where they could be. You guys act as if the league was just slugging itself left and right but that would be closer to the early NBA days than the 90's.


He would still be what he is today he just wouldn't be going in the middle to take the type of punishment Iverson used to take because waving your arms and crying ain't going to get you much in that era.
I actually think he would find scoring far easier back in Magic's day. You dont have to be a pitbull (which CP3 is) to score in those days, hell you had Alex English weighing like a buck-90 leading the league in scoring back then.


Also how can you possibly ignore statistics when comparing the 2 different era's and players from today to past players there is no way that some of the leagues players today would be getting the type of stats they are in the Jordan era. Just no way!
You have it backwards, I never asked you to ignore your claims, I asked you to substantiate them.

THE MTL
11-01-2013, 05:21 PM
I agree that the offensive player is too babied. If the defensive player touches you its a foul. But when an offensive player recklessly drives to the lane for the sole purpose of getting contact it pisses me off

dwilly4rilly
11-01-2013, 09:01 PM
Thanks for the replies. A lot of good points here. I hate what the league is becoming, and the NBA is by far my favorite to watch. Last night while watching the Warriors/Clippers game (I'm not fan of either team) I watched CP3 pull the old, swing your arms way down under the defenders hand move, and get the call. That is not a foul. If the offensive player goes out of his way to initiate contact, it is not a foul on the defender. I am a Jazz fan and against the Thunder Wednesday, Derek Fisher ran full speed into the BACK of Enes Kanter, who was guarding his man, and then fell back and threw up a shot attempt. He got the call. Don't get me wrong, I love a good pump fake, but if the defender doesn't come into your space, you shouldn't be allowed to just jump into his and get the call. It isn't fun to watch and it is pure chump ball. I get that if it works people are you going to keep doing it, but I definitely respect the players that don't stoop to the level.

dwilly4rilly
11-01-2013, 09:05 PM
I agree that the offensive player is too babied. If the defensive player touches you its a foul. But when an offensive player recklessly drives to the lane for the sole purpose of getting contact it pisses me off

Tony Parker is the worst at this. He just Kamikazes it into the paint and throws it up half the time. He can finish when he wants to, but he resorts to this method far to often.

AddiX
11-01-2013, 09:28 PM
I acTually don't mind when the real stars get some calls, guys who have done it for years at the highest level. To me that makes sense.

But when I see dudes like Harden, Griffin, and these young guys who havnt done much getting lebron type calls, that pisses me off. Its just more of the NBA creating new stars out of thin air, I'm tired of it. Let guys earn that type of treatment.

dwilly4rilly
11-01-2013, 10:11 PM
I acTually don't mind when the real stars get some calls, guys who have done it for years at the highest level. To me that makes sense.

But when I see dudes like Harden, Griffin, and these young guys who havnt done much getting lebron type calls, that pisses me off. Its just more of the NBA creating new stars out of thin air, I'm tired of it. Let guys earn that type of treatment.

It's either a foul or it isn't, no matter who commits it or who it is committed against. A true superstar doesn't need "treatment". What message are you sending to the young guys who are trying to defend these "Superstars" that are being handcuffed by the referees. Bogus calls aren't good for the game. Any real fan of the game shouldn't like them either.

Dade County
11-01-2013, 11:29 PM
It seems to me that more and more fouls are being called for the offensive player, to the point that it is very hard to play tough D these days. I am so tired of seeing players like KD and CP3 draw fouls when they swing there arms under the defenders hand and flail up a shot. Or when CP3, Tony Parker, and others run or jump completely out of their normal path to initiate contact with a defender and get awarded with free throws. An offensive player should not be awarded for anything other than a foul on a normal basketball move or natural shooting motion. Everything else falls into the flop category as far as I'm concerned. It isn't basketball and it cheapens the game. Opinions?

Do I have to put a youtube link of Jordan for you? Do I have to bring up that Jordan didn't become his air'ness/goat until they started making him untouchable ( i mean title wise, not performance wise ).

Todays offensive players benefit from MJ, so every time you see a super star foul call... Blame Stern/MJ/Men behind the curtain.

AddiX
11-02-2013, 12:59 AM
It's either a foul or it isn't, no matter who commits it or who it is committed against. A true superstar doesn't need "treatment". What message are you sending to the young guys who are trying to defend these "Superstars" that are being handcuffed by the referees. Bogus calls aren't good for the game. Any real fan of the game shouldn't like them either.

Stars are going to get there calls always and forever, and you need to learn to accept that.

IMO it should be relegated to superstars, for whatever reason stern has decided to give way to many players "star treatment".

I remember when it was MJ and MJ only who got that treatment.

SoFreshNsoClean
11-02-2013, 01:48 AM
Todays offensive players benefit from MJ, so every time you see a super star foul call... Blame Stern/MJ/Men behind the curtain.

This should be basic basketball knowledge IMO...but its not.

Rndy
11-02-2013, 03:31 AM
Yeah it sucks but if your team got the calls Miami gets you wouldn't complain I sure didn't in the 90's when Bulls got all the calls. I do hope eventually Rose starts getting more calls that guy takes a beating inside and never gets the calls very frustrating.