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View Full Version : Vince Carter the Forgotten Star of This Era



Clippersfan86
10-31-2013, 01:38 PM
For the last couple hours I've been watching footage of some of my favorite players from the last decade or so. I realized that many of the superstars like Tmac, Kobe, Shaq, Iverson etc get a ton of praise, hype and notice (with good reason). One guy I notice that's regularly neglected and underrated in my eyes is Vince Carter. Sure his defense was mediocre but some people don't realize how high he peaked and how well he's aged. HOFer?

Vince Carter 2001: 27.6 ppg, 4.4 rpg, 4 apg, 1.5 spg, 1 bpg. TS% of 55, PER of 25, Ortg of 114, WS/48 of .208


What's more impressive to me is that he's aged amazingly compared to his peers, despite being the guy relying on athleticism the most of them. I remember in NJ he really developed that jumper and stopped attacking quite as much, maybe that preserved him some. But even now at 37 years old he's definitely an above average player.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmY9HGvfiko

LTBaByyy
10-31-2013, 01:46 PM
One of the only superstars that accepted his decline and gradually turned into a role player (6th man for Mavs)

He had 21 last night, dude can still play at 36

Clippersfan86
10-31-2013, 01:48 PM
One of the only superstars that accepted his decline and gradually turned into a role player (6th man for Mavs)

He had 21 last night, dude can still play at 36

Every time I watch the Mavs he still looks like your second best player after Dirk even at 37 years old lol. He's aged beautifully.

EL_MACHETE
10-31-2013, 01:54 PM
He still a lot left in the tank. But with the lack of scoring in Dallas I hope he steps up and take those extra points

ThuglifeJ
10-31-2013, 01:56 PM
Its because he's still in the league, on last legs, and we don't know when he'll retire. Hard to talk constantly about a guy in that spot, they do respect him though.

He still gets an ovation by Dallas only second to Dirk.

He'll be a big topic once he retires. Its just weird to see him still playing, and still so well, but nothing like he used to. He shot like 42% from deep last year right? Was praised as great defense? He definitely reinvented himself.

He's just simply a really smart guy. That's what college can get ya. A more well designed full career (as how he decided to shoot/pass/defend better by end of NJ)

HOF forsure

Hes been forgotten true. But doesn't every star after 5+ years since heyday? I even forget about Wades ability he had sometimes. Remember when Ray Allen was a Highflyer? Barely. Things just fadeaway. Vinsanity did too, sadly.

NYKnickFanatic
10-31-2013, 01:57 PM
Carter, one of my favorite players. I would like to see him win a title, but it's not going to happen with the Mavs.

Clippersfan86
10-31-2013, 01:58 PM
Thug I agree and like your worded that he's basically reinvented himself. I think he's done that 2 times. In NJ he became a much better jump shooter, toned down the high flying stuff a bit. Then in Dallas he built himself into a more well rounded, efficient utility man who does everything.

ThuglifeJ
10-31-2013, 01:59 PM
One of the only superstars that accepted his decline and gradually turned into a role player (6th man for Mavs)

He had 21 last night, dude can still play at 36

I can't tell if its better for a superstar to end after his prime days, so everyone just remembers the prime, or to reinvent and accept decline and keep playing.

Chronz
10-31-2013, 02:00 PM
Aside from his talent (which has aged well) hes been able to do what alot of former stars have struggled with, become a great teammate and locker room guy.

As for his career, a good personal litmus test for under-appreciation is to see how many All-NBA Seasons hes had and how many you think he should have had. As for his actual talent/skill, casual fans got the book on him wrong IMO, he was always more than just an athlete, well at least once he became a legit star, he had the range and its gotten better with age. His BBALL IQ has developed more than anything.

One thing people think is that he had all the tools to be more but I look at him and I see a guy whos maximized his talents for the most part. If hes underachieved then Im sure plenty other legends have as well, but hes put work in to have the skillset he does. Even yesterday he looked great, the fundamentals he displays on the PnR is something hes worked hard at to add to his game. One thing he lacked that guys like Kobe-Tmac-MJ had, is that initial burst. The quick first step and lateral movement to their games, Vince has the vertical game on them, the agility in the air, the length, but I think perimeter guys benefit the most from that first step more than any other athletic trait. It provides space out of fear just from a triple threat stance. Not sure how good VC's handles were, I dont remember him being on their level either tho so maybe thats one thing he should have worked on. But hes always been a great set shooter, you combine that skill with innate length and still serviceable hops and you have a recipe for longevity.

NYKnickFanatic
10-31-2013, 02:11 PM
I totally forgot he even played for the Suns.

Chronz
10-31-2013, 02:26 PM
Which year do you guys feel we saw PEAK Vince?

MILLERHIGHLIFE
10-31-2013, 02:30 PM
Still remember him in that slam dunk contest like as if it were yesterday still.

DreamShaker
10-31-2013, 02:34 PM
I was just watching some highlights of him from his prime. Dude was a great scorer and a pretty well rounded player. Should absolutely be in the HOF.

DreamShaker
10-31-2013, 02:37 PM
Which year do you guys feel we saw PEAK Vince?

That year Clips posted is hard to argue. The year he was traded to the Nets sticks out in my mind. He just killed it after he went there.

Clippersfan86
10-31-2013, 02:41 PM
I was considering the first or second year on the Nets as peak.. but for some reason all of his impact metrics like WS/ORTG/PER are way down from 01, although raw stats are obviously there. I remember loving those Kidd/Carter Nets but don't remember if he looked better than 01 or not. As I said I remember in NJ he was a more consistent shooter and defender but he was not as explosive and good at attacking the rim as before, although I could be wrong.

LAKERMANIA
10-31-2013, 02:43 PM
Since PSD has been feeling nostalgic lately (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lf3K-S9jDdY)

Chronz
10-31-2013, 02:52 PM
That year Clips posted is hard to argue. The year he was traded to the Nets sticks out in my mind. He just killed it after he went there.

Yeah thats what Im thinking too. The Nets were in the gutter and lost RJ within a few games of the VC trade, but he willed them into the playoffs... where he proceeded to revert to the jumpshooting happy Vince he was in Toronto. I dont know if a series vs a team like Miami with such little support should weigh this heavily. The next year he coasted more but he had his best playoff stretch of his career. What matters most?

The OP posted what is easily the best combination of both reg+post season success, and to some thats what matters most but I think there is some room for subjectivity when discussing a players highest level of play. Heres a Tmac example, he obviously had his best regular season individually in 02-03, arguably his best overall season given how he pushed the far superior Pistons to 7 games, but I still feel his absolute highest level of play came his first year with Houston.

It took him, JVG and Yao awhile to get acclimated but once they did the Rockets were playing a level hes never guided a team to. By the time the playoffs came around, Tmac ceased pacing himself and performed as if he was in Orlando, putting up the best numbers on the stat sheet and absolutely locking down on Dirk on the defensive end. It was like watching vintage Tmac only with a better understanding of the game. THAT was Tmac at his best IMO. He may not have been able to display it as consistently as he did in his youth, but come playoff time, he would be the better option to lead the team than a younger version of himself.

For me, that was Nets Vince but he was so good in Toronto.

thedfactor
10-31-2013, 02:53 PM
Looked fresh in season opener with 21 points

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhjRty_x_ok

Il Mago50
10-31-2013, 03:01 PM
Not forgotten at all, just didn't do enough to be well remembered outside of his dunk contest and first 5 seasons

Chronz
10-31-2013, 03:20 PM
I was considering the first or second year on the Nets as peak.. but for some reason all of his impact metrics like WS/ORTG/PER are way down from 01, although raw stats are obviously there. I remember loving those Kidd/Carter Nets but don't remember if he looked better than 01 or not. As I said I remember in NJ he was a more consistent shooter and defender but he was not as explosive and good at attacking the rim as before, although I could be wrong.
Its nit picking I know but I like scrutinizing the smallest things when discussing peak play. That season does stand out statistically, and that playoff run was for the most part incredible. Like I said, the best combination of Reg+Post Season statistics, just think its close enough to debate, depending on what you value.

I honestly dont know about the slasher vs shooter thing, his career is filled with ups and downs in terms of shot selection and efficiency. Like he had some years in Toronto where all he did was chuck, he attacked the rack more once he got back to NJ but that was a less inspired VC.

Comparing the peak years in question (01, 05, 06) he did take and make more 3's with Toronto.

Looking at different shot charts and he doesn't seem to get more rim buckets with Toronto, he also has his highest ft rates with NJ, the reason he seems to be more efficient in Toronto is because of his 3pt shooting, lower t.o.% and better o-rebounding. Interesting to compare the different VCs, gonna look into it some more later.

Clippersfan86
10-31-2013, 03:23 PM
Interesting, I guess my memory isn't reliable about this. I thought his best three point shooting years were later in NJ but the rebounding makes sense.

ThuglifeJ
10-31-2013, 03:26 PM
Which year do you guys feel we saw PEAK Vince?

2001 playoffs when he faced AI. Unreal 50 pt games back to back to back. The 8 3 pters in a row.

What we saw in that playoff series from ai and vc was one of the greatest moments in basketball. It was one of those moments when you are glued to the TV and dont say a word because you are witnessing something you may never again.

He was just coming off all the hype from Olympics and just being young, dunk contest, etc.

He was at his best probably first stint with new jersey though. He could do everything. Shoot, drive, hang, post up, pass, lead, fade, fake.just everything offensively

Clippersfan86
10-31-2013, 03:29 PM
So then maybe Vince skillset wise peaked in NJ but production wise/success wise peaked in 01 for the Raptors?

Chronz
10-31-2013, 03:53 PM
2001 playoffs when he faced AI. Unreal 50 pt games back to back to back. The 8 3 pters in a row.

What we saw in that playoff series from ai and vc was one of the greatest moments in basketball. It was one of those moments when you are glued to the TV and dont say a word because you are witnessing something you may never again.

He was just coming off all the hype from Olympics and just being young, dunk contest, etc.

He was at his best probably first stint with new jersey though. He could do everything. Shoot, drive, hang, post up, pass, lead, fade, fake.just everything offensively
LOL its confusing to read he was at his best in NJ but that he played his best in Toronto.

I know what you mean tho, all that said, Ill take the NJ version to help lead my team. Strange thing about his 3pt shooting, I wonder if he was a better shooter in Toronto because his game was more based on being an outlet, attacking compromised defenses off passes from other teammates whereas in New Jersey, he was more of a do it all scorer... seems odd to say he was more of a traditional scorer when playing with Kidd tho.

Chronz
10-31-2013, 03:54 PM
So then maybe Vince skillset wise peaked in NJ but production wise/success wise peaked in 01 for the Raptors?
That depends on how you feel about his defensive contributions and how much you value the differing playoff production.

b@llhog24
10-31-2013, 04:06 PM
Most people love VC. Only time he gets bashed is from Raptor fans and when he's compared to Kobe then you get the whole "he quit on our team" or "he didn't maximize his potential" schtick.

BlinkManJan02
10-31-2013, 04:08 PM
One of the only superstars that accepted his decline and gradually turned into a role player (6th man for Mavs)

He had 21 last night, dude can still play at 36

I've always liked Carter..that's nice to hear he's still putting up numbers. Superstars accepting their decline and accepting a bench position seems unheard of. I hope he gets into the Hall.

ThuglifeJ
10-31-2013, 04:59 PM
2001 playoffs when he faced AI. Unreal 50 pt games back to back to back. The 8 3 pters in a row.

What we saw in that playoff series from ai and vc was one of the greatest moments in basketball. It was one of those moments when you are glued to the TV and dont say a word because you are witnessing something you may never again.

He was just coming off all the hype from Olympics and just being young, dunk contest, etc.

He was at his best probably first stint with new jersey though. He could do everything. Shoot, drive, hang, post up, pass, lead, fade, fake.just everything offensively
LOL its confusing to read he was at his best in NJ but that he played his best in Toronto.

I know what you mean tho, all that said, Ill take the NJ version to help lead my team. Strange thing about his 3pt shooting, I wonder if he was a better shooter in Toronto because his game was more based on being an outlet, attacking compromised defenses off passes from other teammates whereas in New Jersey, he was more of a do it all scorer... seems odd to say he was more of a traditional scorer when playing with Kidd tho.
Hah yeah its just a confusing to explain . He was a little more exciting and faster in Toronto. But he was smarter in Jersey, better all around. His aura was just so high in Toronto its hard to say.

Either way I'm glad I got to watch Vince in his prime.

Hawkeye15
10-31-2013, 05:05 PM
Which year do you guys feel we saw PEAK Vince?

00-01'

N3TS
10-31-2013, 05:28 PM
When he use to dial into a game, he was virtually unstoppable. If he had your number(Raptors) he was going to make sure he came out on top. He's still a very effective player at his age, I'd love him back on the Nets as a role player.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHgr-bUJIPs

0nekhmer
10-31-2013, 10:37 PM
It is amazing that he can still produce. Everytime I see vince play I always ask, when's he gonna run out and just retire? cause his current situation isn't gonna get him a chance for a ring.

Alayla
10-31-2013, 11:33 PM
For the last couple hours I've been watching footage of some of my favorite players from the last decade or so. I realized that many of the superstars like Tmac, Kobe, Shaq, Iverson etc get a ton of praise, hype and notice (with good reason). One guy I notice that's regularly neglected and underrated in my eyes is Vince Carter. Sure his defense was mediocre but some people don't realize how high he peaked and how well he's aged. HOFer?

Vince Carter 2001: 27.6 ppg, 4.4 rpg, 4 apg, 1.5 spg, 1 bpg. TS% of 55, PER of 25, Ortg of 114, WS/48 of .208


What's more impressive to me is that he's aged amazingly compared to his peers, despite being the guy relying on athleticism the most of them. I remember in NJ he really developed that jumper and stopped attacking quite as much, maybe that preserved him some. But even now at 37 years old he's definitely an above average player.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmY9HGvfiko

Been saying it since his stint with the magic people Sleep on Carter every year people assume he will become irreverent and he just never ever does.

BHF
11-01-2013, 01:57 AM
The song goes work hard play hard work hard play hard, and the video is about Vince Carter lol

jam
11-01-2013, 06:25 AM
He's the greatest in game dunker of all time. Quite possibly one of the 10 freakiest athletes the game has ever seen. If he had had the desire, he could have become one of the top 15 players of all time, possibly even top 10.

It's too bad that carter and mcgrady didn't build a dynasty together. What could've been.

R. Johnson#3
11-01-2013, 06:54 AM
He peaked in 2001 when it was Vince and the Bullies. That team was so awesome. Everyone was afraid to touch Vince Carter because they knew Kevin Willis, Antonio Davis, Charles Oakley, Keon Clark or JYD was going to get them.

TheMightyHumph
11-01-2013, 12:37 PM
As a Net fan, I'll never forget Vince Carter. What a DOG!!!

Nets would have recovered much better without the trading for Carter.

RaiderLakersA's
11-01-2013, 03:48 PM
He had his moments. Just not enough of them. Nevermind the fact that we don't talk about him as much as fans, players from his era rarely mention him as well when you talk about generating a short list. A shame when you consider how gifted he was in his prime.

asandhu23
11-01-2013, 04:05 PM
He's the greatest in game dunker of all time. Quite possibly one of the 10 freakiest athletes the game has ever seen. If he had had the desire, he could have become one of the top 15 players of all time, possibly even top 10.

It's too bad that carter and mcgrady didn't build a dynasty together. What could've been.


Do you know the man well enough to just throw that out there?

Chronz
11-01-2013, 05:40 PM
He's the greatest in game dunker of all time. Quite possibly one of the 10 freakiest athletes the game has ever seen. If he had had the desire, he could have become one of the top 15 players of all time, possibly even top 10.

It's too bad that carter and mcgrady didn't build a dynasty together. What could've been.

Doesn't he need teammates to become that great?

BradHolt4CYoung
11-01-2013, 07:38 PM
As a Net fan, I'll never forget Vince Carter. What a DOG!!!

Nets would have recovered much better without the trading for Carter.

How can you say that man....as a Nets fan, the Kidd/VC/RJ era was awesome. His first season as a Net after the trade was just inspiring. I have a Vince Carter Nets FatHead in my room. He was part of my childhood idols.