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View Full Version : Had Shaq gone to Cleveland in 2005 instead of Miami, how many titles?



JordansBulls
10-26-2013, 04:53 PM
Had Shaq gone to Cleveland in 2005 instead of Miami, how many titles do the Cavs win with Shaq and LBJ from 2005 thru 2010?

mikekhelxD
10-26-2013, 04:58 PM
Who the **** knows?

TheMightyHumph
10-26-2013, 05:01 PM
Had Shaq gone to Cleveland in 2005 instead of Miami, how many titles do the Cavs win with Shaq and LBJ from 2005 thru 2010?

What would Cavs have traded for Shaq?

Chill_Will_24
10-26-2013, 05:05 PM
I thought you were dead?

Supreme LA
10-26-2013, 05:08 PM
Without James Posey, Haslem, and Alonzo Mourning neither the Heat or Cleveland would win a title.

Tony_Starks
10-26-2013, 05:37 PM
Zero.

Dade County
10-26-2013, 05:46 PM
I thought you were dead?


:laugh2:

DreamShaker
10-26-2013, 06:08 PM
The Cavs always found a way to jack things up, but Im guessing maybe one. But like it was said, the role players they had were top notch. Maybe if they could take Zo, Posey, GP, and Haslem with them. Maybe even J-Will. Cause the Cavs were rocking some pretty sorry lineups at that point.

king4day
10-26-2013, 06:13 PM
Was this a rumor or just a 'what if'? I don't recall what teams were in the running.

setman2000
10-26-2013, 06:16 PM
17 in 7 years.

amos1er
10-26-2013, 06:28 PM
The window would be 2005 and 2006 while Shaq was still playing at a superstar level. So in that two year window, I believe that they would win zero because they would not have been able to get past the Pistons both years. Lebron was still a very incomplete player during those years as he did not play good defense and was a very poor jump shooter. Not to mention he was the anthesis of clutch back then. Not only that, but they did not have the supporting cast either. Detroit would have mopped the floor with an end of prime Shaq, a raw version of Lebron, and a not so stellar supporting cast. There you have it... Zero rings.

3RDASYSTEM
10-26-2013, 06:32 PM
That 04' SHAQ sure as hell destroyed that pistons frontline and would have continued if not for that wannabe JORDAN who shot'em out the series

and he wasn't young at all, it was his 8th season in and he was tired of being SHAQ's *****(sidekick)

Chronz
10-26-2013, 07:14 PM
They make the Finals their first 2 years, Bron is better able to handle the load when Shaq isn't on the court, hopefully alleviating him somewhat. People forget that Miami was beating Detroit 3-2 or something before Shaqs thigh bruise and Wades busted ribs, they would have stomped Detroit if not for injuries and the inept coaching of SVG. Bron has proven to be a tank in terms of durability, I have no doubt he would have shown up for Shaq where Wade could not. The supporting cast would have been solved by players flocking to Shaq and Bron.

mightybosstone
10-26-2013, 07:29 PM
This thread doesn't make a whole lot of sense, because Cleveland didn't have the pieces to make that trade outside of dealing James for him. Let's not forget that the Heat dealt Caron Butler, Lamar Odom, Brian Grant and a future first rounder for him. That's two All-Star caliber players and a future first round pick. No way could Cleveland have matched an offer like that with the crap they had surrounding Lebron.

4milesperday
10-26-2013, 07:31 PM
Didn't JordansBulls die? Dude, people were already saying their condolences...everyone loved you when you supposedly died.

mdm692
10-26-2013, 07:38 PM
Didn't JordansBulls die? Dude, people were already saying their condolences...everyone loved you when you supposedly died.
I pointed this out a couple days ago in another thread but everybody played blind lol. They had even made him a thread and all. Pretty pathetic if it was just a hoax to get attention.

Cal827
10-26-2013, 07:41 PM
JordansBulls is back from the dead? Holy ****ing mother of ********** *****! The Zombie is back from Halloween to chase us on his own home court :ohno:

All jokes aside, nice to see you back. To answer the question, I think 2. So when Lebron gets all the way up to the top, while Shaq was still playing very good ball (20-10 guy). Afterwards, it'll become a Lebron only team. They might go to the finals in 09 (Assuming Shaq royally ****s with Howard), but LA would have smashed them that year (at least I think so).

Lion
10-26-2013, 11:38 PM
JordansBulls is back from the dead? Holy ****ing mother of ********** *****! The Zombie is back from Halloween to chase us on his own home court :ohno:

All jokes aside, nice to see you back. To answer the question, I think 2. So when Lebron gets all the way up to the top, while Shaq was still playing very good ball (20-10 guy). Afterwards, it'll become a Lebron only team. They might go to the finals in 09 (Assuming Shaq royally ****s with Howard), but LA would have smashed them that year (at least I think so).
I disagree, that Cleveland Team were dominating the lakers during that season, that's without shaq.

John Walls Era
10-26-2013, 11:42 PM
Didn't JordansBulls die? Dude, people were already saying their condolences...everyone loved you when you supposedly died.

People were very mad when they found out JordansBulls didn't die.

FlashBolt
10-27-2013, 12:11 AM
No. That Miami roster that won was very good. Zo, Payton, Pat Riley, Antoine Walker, and Wade had arguably one of the greatest Finals series. I don't think James and Shaq would've been enough. As good as James was, Shaq was not nearly as dominant as he was with the Lakers.

beasted86
10-27-2013, 01:19 AM
This thread doesn't make a whole lot of sense, because Cleveland didn't have the pieces to make that trade outside of dealing James for him. Let's not forget that the Heat dealt Caron Butler, Lamar Odom, Brian Grant and a future first rounder for him. That's two All-Star caliber players and a future first round pick. No way could Cleveland have matched an offer like that with the crap they had surrounding Lebron.
This is the idiocy that goes along with hypotheticals like this.

We have to throw in an equally stupid guess and suggest the Lakers just take Ilgauskas straight up.

PG: Erik Snow
SG: Jeff McGinnis / Sasha Pavlovic
SF: LeBron James / Ira Newble
PF: Drew Gooden / Anderson Varejao
C:: Shaquille O'Neal / Tractor Traylor

That team isn't winning a thing with those shooters. And have no trade pieces to bring in shooters either. And to the people who said that good vets would flock to Shaq in Cleveland for cheap.... Yeah... cause that's exactly what they did with LeBron in Cleveland, right?

Slug3
10-27-2013, 01:59 AM
Without James Posey, Haslem, and Alonzo Mourning neither the Heat or Cleveland would win a title.

Thank you!!!! People forget how important these pieces were for Miami when they won. Posey had great D and UD was a great forward.

JasonJohnHorn
10-27-2013, 02:07 AM
I would say three. This would of course depend on what they had to give up to get him, but CLE was willing to spend money to win. If they won with Wade, I don't see how they would love with LBJ.

Shaq was still beasting the board and was a threat in the post. His numbers still better than 20/10 per36 until 2009. With James and Shaq together, there is no doubt they would have been able to win one, but the other part is the talent they would have drawn. Ring chasers would have been drooling for a chance to play with those guys.

It's like great actors/actresses/directors. Other performers sign up with some movies just to work with somebody they respect. I think there would have been a lot of guys excited about the prospect of both winning, and being able to say they played with Shaq and LBJ.

Chronz
10-27-2013, 02:22 AM
This thread doesn't make a whole lot of sense, because Cleveland didn't have the pieces to make that trade outside of dealing James for him. Let's not forget that the Heat dealt Caron Butler, Lamar Odom, Brian Grant and a future first rounder for him. That's two All-Star caliber players and a future first round pick. No way could Cleveland have matched an offer like that with the crap they had surrounding Lebron.
This is the idiocy that goes along with hypotheticals like this.

We have to throw in an equally stupid guess and suggest the Lakers just take Ilgauskas straight up.

PG: Erik Snow
SG: Jeff McGinnis / Sasha Pavlovic
SF: LeBron James / Ira Newble
PF: Drew Gooden / Anderson Varejao
C:: Shaquille O'Neal / Tractor Traylor

That team isn't winning a thing with those shooters. And have no trade pieces to bring in shooters either. And to the people who said that good vets would flock to Shaq in Cleveland for cheap.... Yeah... cause that's exactly what they did with LeBron in Cleveland, right?
Bron + semi prime Shaq changes things

kblo247
10-27-2013, 03:10 AM
I'm really stuck on the fact this **** sticks LA with Z alone. There is no Shaq to Cavs trade without LBJ being the return alongside Z. Wade didnt come because Lamar was 25 and Caron was a young stud too, but the Cavs are giving up Bron to get Shaq, bet your *** on that.


Question becomes : How many do prime Kobe and LeBron win together in LA?

Atkins/Brown/Vujacic
Kobe/Rush
LeBron/Walton/Jones
Mihm/Cook/Medvedenko
Z/Vlade

yankeefan54
10-27-2013, 01:19 PM
Zero

bleedprple&gold
10-27-2013, 06:36 PM
This thread doesn't make a whole lot of sense, because Cleveland didn't have the pieces to make that trade outside of dealing James for him. Let's not forget that the Heat dealt Caron Butler, Lamar Odom, Brian Grant and a future first rounder for him. That's two All-Star caliber players and a future first round pick. No way could Cleveland have matched an offer like that with the crap they had surrounding Lebron.

This. JB loves his hypothetical "what if" threads even if they make no sense...he came back from the dead for this?

Chronz
10-27-2013, 06:45 PM
I dont know why you guys are acting as if Shaq couldn't have forced his way to Cleveland instead of Miami. What were their contracts at the time? Big Z, Gooden + Snow and whatever trash they needed

Almighty Push
10-27-2013, 07:05 PM
I'm really stuck on the fact this **** sticks LA with Z alone. There is no Shaq to Cavs trade without LBJ being the return alongside Z. Wade didnt come because Lamar was 25 and Caron was a young stud too, but the Cavs are giving up Bron to get Shaq, bet your *** on that.


Question becomes : How many do prime Kobe and LeBron win together in LA?

Atkins/Brown/Vujacic
Kobe/Rush
LeBron/Walton/Jones
Mihm/Cook/Medvedenko
Z/Vlade

with Phil or with Rudy T?

beasted86
10-27-2013, 07:32 PM
Bron + semi prime Shaq changes things

So where were all these guys flocking after 2006 with the showcase of Finals MVP Wade, still prime Shaq, South Beach weather, HOF Head coach Pat Riley, and no state taxes?

Because it sure wasn't Miami, and with it spelled out like that, I hope you see the grand advantage Miami still would have over Cleveland. It really changes nothing. Team would struggle to pull above average free agents.

Chronz
10-27-2013, 08:52 PM
So where were all these guys flocking after 2006 with the showcase of Finals MVP Wade, still prime Shaq, South Beach weather, HOF Head coach Pat Riley, and no state taxes?

Because it sure wasn't Miami, and with it spelled out like that, I hope you see the grand advantage Miami still would have over Cleveland. It really changes nothing. Team would struggle to pull above average free agents.
Shaq was not in his prime, certainly not as imposing as he appeared to be when he was fresh off a dominating Finals. Like GP was hooked to wherever Shaq was going, that much is certain. Cleveland also had a favorable cap figure IIRC. Would have to know the entire figures but I do think they could have attracted some help. Damon Jones for instance defected to Cleveland anyways.

Riodagoat
10-27-2013, 10:19 PM
Zero. Other than Lebron and Shaq, their roster would've been completely garbage. Ira Newble anyone?
Besides, Miami had a bunch of seasoned veterans like Zo, Posey, GP to name a few. Cavs never had that.

FlashBolt
10-27-2013, 11:39 PM
I'm really stuck on the fact this **** sticks LA with Z alone. There is no Shaq to Cavs trade without LBJ being the return alongside Z. Wade didnt come because Lamar was 25 and Caron was a young stud too, but the Cavs are giving up Bron to get Shaq, bet your *** on that.


Question becomes : How many do prime Kobe and LeBron win together in LA?

Atkins/Brown/Vujacic
Kobe/Rush
LeBron/Walton/Jones
Mihm/Cook/Medvedenko
Z/Vlade

Lmao. Cavs would not have traded LJ for Shaq. You'd have to be below ******** if you would make such a trade.

beasted86
10-28-2013, 12:22 AM
Shaq was not in his prime, certainly not as imposing as he appeared to be when he was fresh off a dominating Finals. Like GP was hooked to wherever Shaq was going, that much is certain. Cleveland also had a favorable cap figure IIRC. Would have to know the entire figures but I do think they could have attracted some help. Damon Jones for instance defected to Cleveland anyways.

Jones went to Cleveland for the full MLE or most of it if I remember right. This pretty much proves my point of what type of player the MLE was fetching in those days of the old CBA when teams threw bank at scrubs.

It isn't like we don't have any guidelines here... I don't know why you are trying to bask in this "unknown"... for easy reference all we have to do is just go back to who the Lakers were able to get with prime Shaq and Kobe with the MLE and bi-annual... and directly after that what Miami was able to get with end of prime Shaq, and elite Wade. Don't try and re-invent the wheel here.

Both those teams were not able to get much in that span with that money... there's no reason not believe Cleveland would have even been worse than those two at fetching free agents. It's really simple, that Cavs team around them was crap, and they probably wouldn't have won even 1 title.

beasted86
10-28-2013, 12:26 AM
Another factor people are overlooking is who exactly is coaching this team to these supposed 2 titles? Paul Silas? Rookie HC Mike Brown?

Yeah right.

Rndy
10-28-2013, 12:52 AM
Didn't JordansBulls die? Dude, people were already saying their condolences...everyone loved you when you supposedly died.

About that... lets just say those Scientology guys are ******** themselves.

kblo247
10-28-2013, 01:03 AM
Lmao. Cavs would not have traded LJ for Shaq. You'd have to be below ******** if you would make such a trade.

He doesn't ever get dealt to Cleveland then. They had nothing to offer for Shaq that would suffice short of Bron and Z.

kblo247
10-28-2013, 01:07 AM
with Phil or with Rudy T?

Assuming its the same summer just with Cavs trade over Miami one. So Rudy is the coach, Payton gets dealt for Atkins/Jones/Mihm, Vlade/Kobe/Slava/Tierre are signed, Sasha is drafted, and Rush/Walton/Cook are carry overs.

kblo247
10-28-2013, 01:10 AM
I dont know why you guys are acting as if Shaq couldn't have forced his way to Cleveland instead of Miami. What were their contracts at the time? Big Z, Gooden + Snow and whatever trash they needed

Because the lakers have to agree to deal him there and Kobe has to agree to sign on for that with some promising of competing in 3 years like he was promised with Lamar and Caron

Chronz you know better than to think Jerry Buss signs off Shaq for Gooden, Snow, or any of that ****. Hell he wanted 25 year old Lamar and young Caron to recreate Showtime. By every mean he eats one big deal like Brian Grant, that's Z, and he expects a young promising piece back that can play and shows Kobe you will have some plan of competing in the near future aka Bron.

Denver-boy
10-28-2013, 01:26 AM
Next thread will be.... if 1990 Micheal Jordan traveled to the future, to the 2012 Miami heat to form a big three of Lebron, Young Kobe in his Prime, and 1990's Michael Jordan... how many titles?

kafeijiulang
10-28-2013, 02:23 AM
what would cavs have traded for shaq?
lbj

Chronz
10-28-2013, 11:24 AM
It isn't like we don't have any guidelines here... I don't know why you are trying to bask in this "unknown"... for easy reference all we have to do is just go back to who the Lakers were able to get with prime Shaq and Kobe with the MLE and bi-annual... and directly after that what Miami was able to get with end of prime Shaq, and elite Wade. Don't try and re-invent the wheel here.
Im not, lots of guy played well below their market value to play with Shaq, you add his star power with Brons and its a pretty alluring situation. Its happened on other contenders throughout NBA history, not sure what you're trying to get at here.


Both those teams were not able to get much in that span with that money... there's no reason not believe Cleveland would have even been worse than those two at fetching free agents. It's really simple, that Cavs team around them was crap, and they probably wouldn't have won even 1 title.
What are you basing this on? Practically every player the Lakers have had during the Shaq days played below their market value. Rick Fox was on the radio a few days ago talking about it himself, GP and Karl Malone were both 20-8 players who could have gotten SIGNIFICANTLY more before choosing to hook up with Shaq for the min. There may have been some hesitation as the Kobe-Shaq fued grew but Bron and Shaq wouldn't have that problem IMO. Wade wasn't the hyped up star Bron was back then so I disagree with you mentioning an older Shaq+him in the same breath.

The point you ignored remains true, guys would have made themselves available to hook up with Shaq and until you or I posts the full financial details behind the hypothetical, I will bask in the unknown. I simply cant fathom why a Gary Payton wouldn't continue to follow Shaq.

Chronz
10-28-2013, 11:41 AM
Because the lakers have to agree to deal him there and Kobe has to agree to sign on for that with some promising of competing in 3 years like he was promised with Lamar and Caron
Refreshing, most Laker fans like to pretend Kobe had nothing to do with Phil+Shaq leaving. But yes I agree, hes sure to have some say. As for what he was promised, Ive heard multiple stories.

The pressure of keeping Kobe is what makes getting rid of Shaq essential. Shaq refuses to play for anyone but Cleveland you have yourself a Mexican standoff(Shaq would never do this because he likes bigger cities and warm/beachy climates). And BTW, Kobe was an idiot, so was Mitch/Buss for accepting the Grant contract that saddled the team for 3 years. IIRC the story goes that Kobe was promised the team would not rebuild and would look to win asap, he felt that promise was reneged upon and thats when he requested to be traded. The myth gos a few ways thereafter but the important part is that they should have known the team they traded for would be all they would have to play with, NOBODY was touching the Grant contract and Odom+Caron weren't enough to sacrifice your cap space for, if not for the Gift of Gasol, who knows where Kobe's playing right now. I even said it at the time of the trade, they should have just released Shaq and reaped the benefits of him coming off the books in 2 years. I think a package of another All-Star Center, a promising PF and promise of picks and cap space would have been more than enough to get them to bite the bullet. I would hope they could trade him without trading Gooden away. People forget how little leverage the Lakers have, they couldn't even get Riley to trade Wade in any way, he knew Shaq wanted out and that Kobe didn't care to keep him.


Chronz you know better than to think Jerry Buss signs off Shaq for Gooden, Snow, or any of that ****. Hell he wanted 25 year old Lamar and young Caron to recreate Showtime. By every mean he eats one big deal like Brian Grant, that's Z, and he expects a young promising piece back that can play and shows Kobe you will have some plan of competing in the near future aka Bron.
I dont buy that the Lakers had much say in the matter, Shaq chose Dallas and Miami as the only possible destinations, so they dealt with those teams and wasted 3 of Kobe's prime years as a result of his delusions. You can talk yourself into doing anything if your backed into a corner. Funny how the chemistry between Kobe-Caron to end the season wasn't enough to keep him from getting traded for Kwame Brown, Showtime died real quick with that one. He eats 1 big deal? LOL that big deal had them dreaming for Yao Ming when it finally expired, Yao crushed that one when he extended well before FA. The Lakers would have rather taken 1 All-Star and the enormous CAP Space created by Shaq's absence IMO. But because they were forced into dealing with the teams Shaq offered, they had to take the cap killer known as BG.

Chronz
10-28-2013, 11:43 AM
Another factor people are overlooking is who exactly is coaching this team to these supposed 2 titles? Paul Silas? Rookie HC Mike Brown?

Yeah right.
Phil Jackson. If not then I dont see whats so wrong with going to war with those coaches.

You dont need the genius of a Spoelstra to win titles. Or the experience of a young Riley for instance. Both were sarcastic tones in case you didn't notice.

Chronz
10-28-2013, 11:47 AM
He doesn't ever get dealt to Cleveland then. They had nothing to offer for Shaq that would suffice short of Bron and Z.
So then what does happen? Kobe joins the Clippers? How do you jettison Shaq for Kobe when he boils it down to 1 team (which is the purpose of this thread, to assume Shaq WANTS to be in Cleveland for some reason)

lajoie
10-28-2013, 12:04 PM
None. Cleveland is cursed.

Stinkyoutsider
10-28-2013, 12:21 PM
I think the Cavs could have gotten a title but just one...

I think Wade was the more complete player than James during that time but the strongest part of Wade's game was his ability to get to the basket to create plays for others. I think James was very strong in that area (slashing and ball handling).

In the long run, I think they would be too dependent on Shaq inside. He didn't hold up too well over that timespan and it would have been left up to James and the rest of the Cavs to carry the load. Not sure they could will their way to a 2nd title.

Chronz
10-28-2013, 12:46 PM
Because this deal gets done in the off season, you have to reconsider some of the moves Cleveland pulls off. Remember this was the Summer of the Boozer fiasco, if you could redo this scenario to inform Cleveland that they have a shot at Shaq, Im sure they keep him around as a trade chip for LA. You then have to question some of the other trades they made but lets keep most of reality in tact in that regard.


That makes it Big Z+Boozer as the core of the trade. They would need to add other contracts but Cleveland had CAP space so maybe not that many. Snow (if he was ever traded for) would not have been traded as the Lakers would have preferred an expiring vet like McGinnis in his place.

Big-Z+Boozer (15M), McGinnis (exp.3.6M), Diop (Exp.2.8M) + Luke Jackson (1.8M Lotto pick/bust), Wagner (exp.2.6M)


Thats the financial side, whether or not you feel the Lakers accept the deal is besides the point, this thread is about assuming Shaq winds up in Cleveland, that only happens via trade so deal with a somewhat realistic proposal.


That leaves Cleveland with a lineup of

Snow/
Pavlovic/
Bron/
Gooden/Varejao
Shaq/Hunter

The rest of the roster they filled out with FA signings that same offseason


Thats roughly 43.7 M tied up into those 7 players. Thats actually right at the cap level, so they would only have the MLE (4.9M) and the bi-annual exceptions (1M) to fill out the roster. I dont care what anyone says, the froncourt is obviously championship caliber, the backcourt is ****, tho Snow at least provides strong defense.


Notable guards that were signed this free agency include;

Jon Barry - To ATL for 3M
Rasual Butler - Resigned 1.2M
Keyon Dooling - To MIA for 74K
D-Fish - To GS for 4.9MLE
Mike James - To MIL for 3.1M
DerMar Johnson - To Den 74K (Tall swing with some range)
Damon Jones - To MIA for 2.5M
Bob Sura - To HOU for 3.2M


You telling me that Bron+Shaq couldn't convince a Jon Barry to join a team with championship aspirations and plenty of PT to boot? Im betting he comes somewhat discounted. There are alot of guys that Miami targeted once they acquired Shaq, Damon Jones for instance could have followed Shaq to Cleveland instead of Miami. You add him and Jon Barry to the mix and you already upgraded the perimeter shooting immensely. Add a Keyon Dooling and you can at least get by until next years MLE chance.

Snow/Jones
Barry/Dooling
Bron/Pavlo
Gooden/AV
Shaq/Hill



Thats a decent start. You could argue they dont trade for Snow if they have Shaq, which might open up a few more trade options.

Chronz
10-28-2013, 12:47 PM
I think the Cavs could have gotten a title but just one...

I think Wade was the more complete player than James during that time but the strongest part of Wade's game was his ability to get to the basket to create plays for others. I think James was very strong in that area (slashing and ball handling).

In the long run, I think they would be too dependent on Shaq inside. He didn't hold up too well over that timespan and it would have been left up to James and the rest of the Cavs to carry the load. Not sure they could will their way to a 2nd title.

Those are all valid points but one thing I mentioned is the durability factor Bron has over Wade. Shaq would have it abit easier with someone who rarely missed games and could carry the team in his absence.

NYtilIdie
10-28-2013, 12:49 PM
I see s**t hasn't changed JB...

beasted86
10-28-2013, 02:00 PM
Im not, lots of guy played well below their market value to play with Shaq, you add his star power with Brons and its a pretty alluring situation. Its happened on other contenders throughout NBA history, not sure what you're trying to get at here.


What are you basing this on? Practically every player the Lakers have had during the Shaq days played below their market value. Rick Fox was on the radio a few days ago talking about it himself, GP and Karl Malone were both 20-8 players who could have gotten SIGNIFICANTLY more before choosing to hook up with Shaq for the min. There may have been some hesitation as the Kobe-Shaq fued grew but Bron and Shaq wouldn't have that problem IMO. Wade wasn't the hyped up star Bron was back then so I disagree with you mentioning an older Shaq+him in the same breath.

The point you ignored remains true, guys would have made themselves available to hook up with Shaq and until you or I posts the full financial details behind the hypothetical, I will bask in the unknown. I simply cant fathom why a Gary Payton wouldn't continue to follow Shaq.

37yr old Gary Payton wouldn't have helped the Cavs much because he also isn't a shooter, and the Cavs would have been only able to fetch similar vet minimum 35+ yr olds. We are talking about adding impact players via the MLE and bi-annual agreements.

Over the span of the Lakers run, the only true discounts they got were Malone and Payton, and that was after a 3PEAT, not at the startup... and that was with prime Shaq, not 2005+ Shaq. Miami over that 2004+ span added Damon Jones and Michael Doleac with parts of the MLE, and Mourning with the bi-annual, but I think his history with Miami, and the fact he was still receiving a larger buyout from Toronto is what helped it. They then had to use the MLE to max out Udonis Haslem in 2006 since he was only an early-bird player.

Following the timeline a similar group to look at is what the Celtics were able to get in that summer of 07 since we are talking about Shaq 05 to 2010? We can look at what other contender "favorites" were getting on the discount price. They signed James Posey with the MLE, and got a 35+ PJ Brown and Sam Cassell for the minimum.

The end game here is Cleveland is a poor market, and even scooping up the best of the best 35yr old players isn't going to solve the fact the team had no shooting, no legit starting PG or SG, and a mediocre coach. Stan Van Gundy is the barometer for a very good team that the coach couldn't get the job done with, and he's way better than Silas and Brown.

I think a lot of people are using the logic that, LeBron was able to get the Cavs to the Finals in 2007, so automatically, LeBron + Shaq = championship. I don't believe that to be true at all. I think with Shaq, and the poor perimeter shooters the Cavs had makes LeBron less effective in the half-court and Detroit and or/ Boston blocks them out throughout that run.

beasted86
10-28-2013, 02:07 PM
Snow/Jones
Barry/Dooling
Bron/Pavlo
Gooden/AV
Shaq/Hill



Thats a decent start. You could argue they dont trade for Snow if they have Shaq, which might open up a few more trade options.

Decent start, not a championship team. HEAT had a 3rd scoring threat in Eddie Jones year 1, then in Antoine Walker and Jason Williams who could create for themselves and others. Cavs have nobody outside Shaq and LeBron, even if you add anyone of those Jon Barry / Dooling types with the MLE. These supporting guys also aren't getting it done on perimeter and PF defense. Gooden was mediocre at best defensively and a general bonehead, and Varejao was inexperienced. But lets at least say he pulls off Haslem's defense... team still doesn't have a Mourning backing up Shaq, and doesn't have Posey helping (LeBron/Wade) on the perimeter.

Chronz
10-28-2013, 02:24 PM
37yr old Gary Payton wouldn't have helped the Cavs much because he also isn't a shooter, and the Cavs would have been only able to fetch similar vet minimum 35+ yr olds. We are talking about adding impact players via the MLE and bi-annual agreements.
He doesn't need to help the Cavs much, just as much as he helped the Heat. Hes just 1 of the players I could envision patching up some rough edges on the squad.


Over the span of the Lakers run, the only true discounts they got were Malone and Payton, and that was after a 3PEAT, not at the startup... and that was with prime Shaq, not 2005+ Shaq.
LOL what constitutes a "true discount", and if thats the standard we are setting then I'd love to see what other true discounts you've seen because Malone taking 1M when he could have gotten about +15 constitutes a discount the likes of which I doubt we've seen. Sounds like your jaded to me.

And again, Ill take the opinion of the former players (like Fox) in this case, citing the chance to play on a contender with Shaq was too enticing the pass up.


Following the timeline a similar group to look at is what the Celtics were able to get in that summer of 07 since we are talking about Shaq 05 to 2010? We can look at what other contender "favorites" were getting on the discount price. They signed James Posey with the MLE, and got a 35+ PJ Brown and Sam Cassell for the minimum.
Yea that was the other team I had in mind, Posey was a great addition but PJ Brown was a huge mid season pickup. Cassell didn't do **** but he was worth the gamble.


The end game here is Cleveland is a poor market, and even scooping up the best of the best 35yr old players isn't going to solve the fact the team had no shooting, no legit starting PG or SG, and a mediocre coach.
I disagree, getting those stopgaps wouldn't keep a team this talented from contending, they would obviously be better prepared to improve the team with a full season.


Stan Van Gundy is the barometer for a very good team that the coach couldn't get the job done with, and he's way better than Silas and Brown.
Again I disagree, hes been disrespected by Shaq, Zo and Dwight alike, I dont have a very high opinion of his simplistic offense and lack of admiration from the players/league at large, hes a good defensive coach but so is Brown. And again, I think Phil Jackson would be in play during this time, he and Shaq were closer than he and Kobe were at the time, and the chance to coach "the next MJ" would have been enticing. Ill settle for Mike Brown with this much talent tho.


I think a lot of people are using the logic that, LeBron was able to get the Cavs to the Finals in 2007, so automatically, LeBron + Shaq = championship. I don't believe that to be true at all. I think with Shaq, and the poor perimeter shooters the Cavs had makes LeBron less effective in the half-court and Detroit and or/ Boston blocks them out throughout that run.
Its a better team tho, and for the most part with plenty of the same players, I mean your talking about a team that played the inept shooting of Hughes and Snow heavy minutes alongside Bron, all your doing is giving Bron a player who can actually attract a double and wont disappear in the playoffs. Adding Shaq is what makes him more efficient, just like it did for Wade and other sidekicks, so Im not seeing the point in mentioning him as a negative in any sort of logical projection. They get a guy like Jon Barry/Damon Jones to help with some shooting and thats 1 less worry.

Chronz
10-28-2013, 02:42 PM
Decent start, not a championship team. HEAT had a 3rd scoring threat in Eddie Jones year 1, then in Antoine Walker and Jason Williams who could create for themselves and others. Cavs have nobody outside Shaq and LeBron, even if you add anyone of those Jon Barry / Dooling types with the MLE. These supporting guys also aren't getting it done on perimeter and PF defense. Gooden was mediocre at best defensively and a general bonehead, and Varejao was inexperienced. But lets at least say he pulls off Haslem's defense... team still doesn't have a Mourning backing up Shaq, and doesn't have Posey helping (LeBron/Wade) on the perimeter.
Well I dont exactly know what the next step would be because thats reliant on several dominoes that would fall as a result of this trade, just the simple stuff like GP eventually returning to Shaq or possible immediate FA signings. If you're telling me this is what they go to war with, I may not have them as the favorites (as few did vs Dallas) but I would go to war with that.

As for the supporting cast, I actually think the 05 team was better than your championship squad so we prolly arent going to see eye to eye but the difference between those 2 squads was not the overall quality depth they added but the health and play of Shaq. I've always considered Joens a choker tho, good for RS so maybe Im allowing that to effect my judgement. But I certainly dont find anything special about the likes of Antoine Walker and his nonexistant defense thats for sure. Varejao being inexperienced doesn't change his game IMO, theres not much pressure when its based on hustle and movement, its not like he became a radically different player during his tenure with Bron. Gooden has always been slow of mind, but hes a quality outlet option for Shaq/Bron, certainly in that tier with Haslem, if a notch below him, capable of playing within a strong team defensive concept.

You can question their defense but what exactly are you expecting from these guys, I mean they were always defending at an above league average rate, you add Shaq and give Bron more energy to expend defensively and you have to think it improves, if even somewhat. Offensively, they are too talented not to rank up there too.

I guess this just comes down to which teams you find better than them in the East. And who could beat them out West.

ghettosean
10-28-2013, 02:43 PM
I think Wade was the better player at that time though that's just a personal opinion. I voted 0 rings.

N3TS
10-28-2013, 02:49 PM
I don't know. The main reason being we don't know which other players would have been added through free agency and trades , also whether or not Mike Brown would have been their head coach for them during that duration.

Chronz
10-28-2013, 02:54 PM
I think Wade was the better player at that time though that's just a personal opinion. I voted 0 rings.

You could definitely argue that but he was never more durable tho.

What do you think would have helped Shaq more vs the Pistons, a better regular season player who is likely to get injured in the post season and thus no longer remain the superior player, or the tank that eventually beat Detroit by himself?

Cleveland eventually built the least talented 60+ win teams in league history, I think they could sustain the Shaq+Bron run longer than Miami did IMO.

ghettosean
10-28-2013, 04:59 PM
You could definitely argue that but he was never more durable tho.

What do you think would have helped Shaq more vs the Pistons, a better regular season player who is likely to get injured in the post season and thus no longer remain the superior player, or the tank that eventually beat Detroit by himself?

Cleveland eventually built the least talented 60+ win teams in league history, I think they could sustain the Shaq+Bron run longer than Miami did IMO.

Yikes that so sticky but I will agree that Wade definitely had the better supporting cast (in the end after some moves) but Lebron had a good team (Queue up the people laughing)... Big Z was in a league depleted of Centers and was not only good in the middle but a threat from outside as well (not to mention he was 7ft 3inches.... Drew Gooden, Andreson Verjo... etc... And well they had Lebron they were not as bad as a team as people make them out to be... No other superstar like Shaq on that team but it's similar to what D-Wade had before Shaq came along.

SportsFanatic10
10-28-2013, 05:08 PM
none imo, not enough of a team around lebron and shaq, and shaq was slowing down more every season at that point although still very good for a few years. also like some have said what could the cavs have traded not named lebron to get him?

Tony_Starks
10-29-2013, 11:36 AM
The window would be 2005 and 2006 while Shaq was still playing at a superstar level. So in that two year window, I believe that they would win zero because they would not have been able to get past the Pistons both years. Lebron was still a very incomplete player during those years as he did not play good defense and was a very poor jump shooter. Not to mention he was the anthesis of clutch back then. Not only that, but they did not have the supporting cast either. Detroit would have mopped the floor with an end of prime Shaq, a raw version of Lebron, and a not so stellar supporting cast. There you have it... Zero rings.

Loving the sig my good man!

NoahH
10-29-2013, 11:51 AM
The Cavs always found a way to jack things up, but Im guessing maybe one. But like it was said, the role players they had were top notch. Maybe if they could take Zo, Posey, GP, and Haslem with them. Maybe even J-Will. Cause the Cavs were rocking some pretty sorry lineups at that point.

Yup.. Pavolvic, an old Larry Hughes, Illgauskus and Drew Gooden alongside LBJ