PDA

View Full Version : Paul George Defensive Player of the Year?



Tony_Starks
10-21-2013, 06:13 PM
He says that's one of his goals this season. Is it realistic? I'm of the opinion it's pretty much a pre-determined toss up between two guys and its their award to lose. Could George pull a upset?

Clippersfan86
10-21-2013, 06:16 PM
I think he can emerge as the best perimeter defender in the game possibly but it's historically a bigman award. They are likely going to give it to the big they feel has the most defensive impact inside.

dtmagnet
10-21-2013, 06:24 PM
No, there are other guys who can defend better than him if we're talking about wing players.

IndyRealist
10-21-2013, 06:35 PM
Not as long as Lebron is healthy. As it is I think he's a good, not great defender. He's versatile, which counts for a lot, but he makes plenty of mistakes and doesn't put up gaudy simple-box-score numbers to sway the media, who I believe votes on this award.

Clippersfan86
10-21-2013, 06:38 PM
Not as long as Lebron is healthy. As it is I think he's a good, not great defender. He's versatile, which counts for a lot, but he makes plenty of mistakes and doesn't put up gaudy simple-box-score numbers to sway the media, who I believe votes on this award.

Lebron has become a very OVERRATED defender like Kobe did a few years back. When guys like Lebron and Kobe decide to lock on defensively they are incredible BUT that rarely happens. In general I wouldn't even say Lebron is consistently a top 5 perimeter defender and I think George will surpass him defensively in the next year or two, even though George is an overrated defender right now as well.

beasted86
10-21-2013, 06:39 PM
You have to remember that it's the media voting for the award, so all types of stupidity can occur.

Hibbert was a better shot blocker, better rebounder, and had a better D-rating, while playing for the #1 defense in the league, and somehow he didn't even crack top 10 in DPOY voting. How or why media members had the idea that Gasol was the best defensive player, but Hibbert wasn't close is beyond me. I will never ever understand that one. I honestly don't even get how Paul George finished higher than Hibbert.

SPURSFAN1
10-21-2013, 06:43 PM
KL will win this along with MIP this year.

IndyRealist
10-21-2013, 06:49 PM
Lebron has become a very OVERRATED defender like Kobe did a few years back. When guys like Lebron and Kobe decide to lock on defensively they are incredible BUT that rarely happens. In general I wouldn't even say Lebron is consistently a top 5 perimeter defender and I think George will surpass him defensively in the next year or two, even though George is an overrated defender right now as well.
I don't disagree that Lebron is overrated defensively. But it's the media that overrates him, and it's the media that does the voting.

Furymaker
10-21-2013, 06:52 PM
didn't he have most defensive win shares this past season ?

beasted86
10-21-2013, 06:56 PM
If the Miami HEAT were the 9th best defensive team, while being the worst rebounding team in the league, and LeBron is overrated... how exactly did they hit that ranking? Mario Chalmers?

I think LeBron is ranked where he needs to be, one of the best all around defenders in the league. Shot blocking, passing lanes, pick and roll, man to man, positions 1-5, he is most definitely a top 5 defender in the league.

Clippersfan86
10-21-2013, 06:58 PM
Overall their cohesion and team defense is great. They are a defensive minded team at the core. Although you can still be overrated and be a great defender. I think Lebron is a top 5-10 perimeter defender but is overrated in the sense that he's in DPOY talks when he shouldn't be.

Defensive versatility and flashy plays aren't enough for me. Consistency of defending at an elite level is everything in terms of value IMO.

Furymaker
10-21-2013, 07:01 PM
i'd still take Jimmy over LeBron ( on defensive end ! ), guys like Iggy , Allen , Kawhi , George come to mind as better defenders than LeBron . ( George is arguable )

Tony_Starks
10-21-2013, 07:04 PM
I agree Lebrons defense is overrated. He's a excellent team defender and can wreak havoc playing the free safety role in passing lanes but when it comes to lock down defenders he's not that guy.

That being said George would have to step his D up to old school Ron Artest levels to sway the media.

Clippersfan86
10-21-2013, 07:06 PM
I agree Lebrons defense is overrated. He's a excellent team defender and can wreak havoc playing the free safety role in passing lanes but when it comes to lock down defenders he's not that guy.

That being said George would have to step his D up to old school Ron Artest levels to sway the media.

Yup agreed.

beasted86
10-21-2013, 07:08 PM
Overall their cohesion and team defense is great. They are a defensive minded team at the core. Although you can still be overrated and be a great defender. I think Lebron is a top 5-10 perimeter defender but is overrated in the sense that he's in DPOY talks when he shouldn't be.

Defensive versatility and flashy plays aren't enough for me. Consistency of defending at an elite level is everything in terms of value IMO.

The defensive player of the year award should be pretty simple criteria for me... who had the biggest defensive impact on the best defensive teams.

And going by that criteria, LeBron definitely should be in the top 5 DPOY discussion.

A lot of people want to go into this "purist" nonsense of guys who defend every possession, etc.. But to me that's garbage. A guy like Tony Allen might be one of the best defense talented players, but at the same time should have no business in DPOY discussion, because I'm not sure how much impact you can have when your own coach only trusts you enough to play you 26 minutes a night. You realistically cannot have DPOY impact playing roughly half the minutes in a game. Or a different way to look at it is, if you defensive impact was that great, your coach should be itching to play you more minutes per game.

Clippersfan86
10-21-2013, 07:17 PM
The point is truly great defensive players do it all the time, not sometimes. You think Pippen and Jordan decided when to defend and not to defend? Or Payton? Or how about Hakeem? Ben Wallace or Dennis Rodman? Go watch footage on truly great defenders and you'll have an answer. For NBA players it's not hard to go at it on D in bursts... what makes you truly elite is sustaining that defense ALL THE TIME. Which guys like Kobe and Lebron never do.

Furymaker
10-21-2013, 07:19 PM
The defensive player of the year award should be pretty simple criteria for me... who had the biggest defensive impact on the best defensive teams.

And going by that criteria, LeBron definitely should be in the top 5 DPOY discussion.

A lot of people want to go into this "purist" nonsense of guys who defend every possession, etc.. But to me that's garbage. A guy like Tony Allen might be one of the best defense talented players, but at the same time should have no business in DPOY discussion, because I'm not sure how much impact you can have when your own coach only trusts you enough to play you 26 minutes a night. You realistically cannot have DPOY impact playing roughly half the minutes in a game.
not really , judging on these type of stats Boozer's looking like Rodman , in reality , there's not a single worse defender at PF I can name now . Dude cant block , bad team defender , his fouls are bad and soft , and in the post he can't defend guys smaller and lighter than him , stat wise , like I said , he looks great .
Oh , and Lebron wouldn't make top 5 , you have Allen and Gasol on Memphis , Deng , Jimmy and Noah on Bulls , Ibaka on Thunder , George and Hibbert at OKC , too many more impact defenders than LeBron and yet , he still was 2nd in DPOY voting . He is top 10 , but he shouldn't be in DPOY conversation

Clippersfan86
10-21-2013, 07:20 PM
Boris Diaw DPOY! Because when he actually wanted to defend he pretty much made Lebron look like a fool. Nevermind that he usually doesn't play elite defense.

Tony_Starks
10-21-2013, 07:23 PM
The defensive player of the year award should be pretty simple criteria for me... who had the biggest defensive impact on the best defensive teams.

And going by that criteria, LeBron definitely should be in the top 5 DPOY discussion.

A lot of people want to go into this "purist" nonsense of guys who defend every possession, etc.. But to me that's garbage. A guy like Tony Allen might be one of the best defense talented players, but at the same time should have no business in DPOY discussion, because I'm not sure how much impact you can have when your own coach only trusts you enough to play you 26 minutes a night. You realistically cannot have DPOY impact playing roughly half the minutes in a game. Or a different way to look at it is, if you defensive impact was that great, your coach should be itching to play you more minutes per game.

Tony Allen's problem is he never worked on his offensive game. When Artest was locking people up in his hayday he was still good for 18-20 a night. They had to give it to him. I actually think Sefolosha is one of the best defenders but same thing as Tony Allen, no offense.

For a wing to get DPOY they have to go above and beyond and be a scorer too....

beasted86
10-21-2013, 07:27 PM
The point is truly great defensive players do it all the time, not sometimes. You think Pippen and Jordan decided when to defend and not to defend? Or Payton? Or how about Hakeem? Ben Wallace or Dennis Rodman? Go watch footage on truly great defenders and you'll have an answer. For NBA players it's not hard to go at it on D in bursts... what makes you truly elite is sustaining that defense ALL THE TIME. Which guys like Kobe and Lebron never do.

Jordan didn't play lock down defense every possession, and neither did Pippen, same with Hakeem, etc.. I think either the media has brainwashed some people, or many are just younger fans who didn't watch these guys whole careers. I cannot speak for Russell and other older guys. A guy like Ben Wallace is probably the closest thing to a "purist" DPOY award because he really had no offense to offer. His only goal while on the floor was to block/alter as many shots as possible, and grab as many boards as possible... and he played a significant amount of minutes per game doing this. All other players including the awards Howard and most other DPOYs I've actually watched win awards has taken possessions off where they did not make legitimate attempts to make a stop to avoid foul trouble or expending too much energy.

Clippersfan86
10-21-2013, 07:28 PM
Jordan didn't play lock down defense every possession, and neither did Pippen, same with Hakeem, etc.. I think either the media has brainwashed some people, or many are just younger fans who didn't watch these guys whole careers. I cannot speak for Russell and other older guys. A guy like Ben Wallace is probably the closest thing to a "purist" DPOY award because he really had no offense to offer. His only goal while on the floor was to block/alter as many shots as possible, and grab as many boards as possible... and he played a significant amount of minutes per game doing this. All other players including the awards Howard and most other DPOYs I've actually watched win awards has taken possessions off where they did not make legitimate attempts to make a stop to avoid foul trouble or expending too much energy.

They didn't play lockdown every play but they played their ***** off on D pretty much and didn't take a bunch of plays off like Lebron.

beasted86
10-21-2013, 07:36 PM
Tony Allen's problem is he never worked on his offensive game. When Artest was locking people up in his hayday he was still good for 18-20 a night. They had to give it to him. I actually think Sefolosha is one of the best defenders but same thing as Tony Allen, no offense.

For a wing to get DPOY they have to go above and beyond and be a scorer too....
No, they have to have a greater defensive impact, that is all.

If you have a guy like Tony Allen, how many positions can he really effectively defend? He gets roasted by quick small guards like Chris Paul, so don't try and sell me that he can defend the 1-3. He also isn't strong enough to guard a LeBron or Melo. He got roasted a couple years ago, as well as last year defending Durant as well... and whether against Durant or Paul, lets not discount the fact that he has a DPOY caliber Marc Gasol as a help defender, and he still gets killed, when his sole purpose is defense, since he is an offensive liability.

So basically he can defend bigger PGs, SGs, and smaller SF. He isn't drawing a bunch of charges or getting steals on help defense... so how expansive is his impact? Rinse and repeat all the above for Sefalosha.

I'm just using these guys as one example, but this applies to most of the perimeter players. This is why LeBron's versatility as well as weakside help raises his ranking as a perimeter defender, and allows him to have a greater impact than many others.

beasted86
10-21-2013, 07:44 PM
They didn't play lockdown every play but they played their ***** off on D pretty much and didn't take a bunch of plays off like Lebron.
No, they didn't play their *** off every play, especially not in the regular season. This must be a case of brainwashing or basketball legend folklore. All good defenders who are a team's primary scorer pick their spots on how to avoid fouls. If you thought Jordan fought just as hard over every screen as a Finals game in the regular season, you are kidding yourself. Especially when it comes to Jordan, there are more full games on YouTube than any other player. I suggest you do some watching or something.

Bruno
10-21-2013, 07:49 PM
he has Hibbert behind him but he did lead the league in defensive win-shares last season. but then again, the DPOY would never allow this to happen on his watch when it was his cover. this is what happens when you pull out Hibbert. George got exposed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4p3xWG3mkXE

"hey lets pull out our best defensive player on the final possession of the most important moment of the game"

how the hell did Vogel and Pop do this? gotta be the stupidest coaching blunders ive seen in recent memory. three times combined! :facepalm: and i dont wana hear the intellectual reasoning as to why they did it. it was a mistake, end of discussion.

Tony_Starks
10-21-2013, 07:52 PM
No, they have to have a greater defensive impact, that is all.

If you have a guy like Tony Allen, how many positions can he really effectively defend? He gets roasted by quick small guards like Chris Paul, so don't try and sell me that he can defend the 1-3. He also isn't strong enough to guard a LeBron or Melo. He got roasted a couple years ago, as well as last year defending Durant as well... and whether against Durant or Paul, lets not discount the fact that he has a DPOY caliber Marc Gasol as a help defender, and he still gets killed, when his sole purpose is defense, since he is an offensive liability.

So basically he can defend bigger PGs, SGs, and smaller SF. He isn't drawing a bunch of charges or getting steals on help defense... so how expansive is his impact? Rinse and repeat all the above for Sefalosha.

I'm just using these guys as one example, but this applies to most of the perimeter players. This is why LeBron's versatility as well as weakside help raises his ranking as a perimeter defender, and allows him to have a greater impact than many others.

Defending multiple positions well doesn't seem to be the medias criteria. Shawn Marion in his prime could literally defend 1-5 and never got it. That's a pretty huge impact.

At the end of the day barring George making a quantum leap it's either Lebron as best 2 way player, or Dwight as the comeback kid. Take your pick.

beasted86
10-21-2013, 07:59 PM
Defending multiple positions well doesn't seem to be the medias criteria. Shawn Marion in his prime could literally defend 1-5 and never got it.

At the end of the day barring George making a quantum leap it's either Lebron as best 2 way player, or Dwight as the comeback kid. Take your pick.

Well I don't think LeBron will ever win it either, I was just making a point on why he is in the discussion, and has top 10 overall defensive impact in the NBA. Guys like Allen and Sefalosha or whoever might have top 5 perimeter defensive skills, but will probably never have top defensive impact in the league. They don't make enough of an impact on as many possessions as others and can only defend a limited number of positions.

But back to George... like I said from the start, the media is voting so anything can happen.

Clippersfan86
10-21-2013, 08:02 PM
Beasted I agree Lebron has top 5-10 defensive impact in the NBA BTW. I was never saying otherwise. I was more saying he's definitely not THE best some seem to label him as.

Tony_Starks
10-21-2013, 08:02 PM
Well I don't think LeBron will ever win it either, I was just making a point on why he is in the discussion, and has top 10 overall defensive impact in the NBA. Guys like Allen and Sefalosha or whoever might have top 5 perimeter defensive skills, but will probably never have top defensive impact in the league. They don't make enough of an impact on as many possessions as others and can only defend a limited number of positions.

But back to George... like I said from the start, the media is voting so anything can happen.


How do explain the Glove getting it strictly defending guards?

Hawkeye15
10-21-2013, 08:08 PM
Bron and Iggy alone are better at the position without argument. And I am sure every wing player in the game would love to have Hibbert behind him....


soooooooooooo, hell no

Dade County
10-21-2013, 08:11 PM
i'd still take Jimmy over LeBron ( on defensive end ! ), guys like Iggy , Allen , Kawhi , George come to mind as better defenders than LeBron . ( George is arguable )

Can any of those guys stick rose in the last 5 minutes of an important game?

IndyRealist
10-21-2013, 08:27 PM
Tony Allen's problem is he never worked on his offensive game. When Artest was locking people up in his hayday he was still good for 18-20 a night. They had to give it to him. I actually think Sefolosha is one of the best defenders but same thing as Tony Allen, no offense.

For a wing to get DPOY they have to go above and beyond and be a scorer too....

That's the problem with media and/or fan voting on DPOY, PPG affects it when it has nothing really to do with playing defense. Yet most people won't acknowledge that inherent contradiction.

Clippersfan86
10-21-2013, 08:28 PM
That's the problem with media and/or fan voting on DPOY, PPG affects it when it has nothing really to do with playing defense. Yet most people won't acknowledge that inherent contradiction.

Agreed. It's ******** in general how they weigh things. I'm starting to think we should go to a set criteria and let computers decide, taking out all the bias and emotions because it's getting fu**ing old.

beasted86
10-21-2013, 09:38 PM
How do explain the Glove getting it strictly defending guards?

The media.

There was a clear media agenda during the 90s to award it to different people rather than attempt to choose the highest impact defender and if its the same person as previous years, so be it. Same reason Jordan wasn't MVP every year. I will say it was a nice thought to give awards in this fashion, but it left the criteria wide open for interpretation, and had no clear line of logic.

There was no logic whatsoever to Payton winning the award. His own teammate Kemp had better defensive advanced stats, and Hakeem, Mutumbo, Robinson, Mourning, etc... didn't just stop being in the league.

Clippersfan86
10-21-2013, 09:49 PM
The media.

There was a clear media agenda during the 90s to award it to different people rather than attempt to choose the highest impact defender and if its the same person as previous years, so be it. Same reason Jordan wasn't MVP every year. I will say it was a nice thought to give awards in this fashion, but it left the criteria wide open for interpretation, and had no clear line of logic.

There was no logic whatsoever to Payton winning the award. His own teammate Kemp had better defensive advanced stats, and Hakeem, Mutumbo, Robinson, Mourning, etc... didn't just stop being in the league.

Are you really going to sit here and imply prime GP wasn't worthy of that DPOY? I don't give a **** what the stats say.. Kemp was a slightly above average defender at his absolute best, while Gary Payton is in the discussion for the best perimeter defender of ALL TIME with Michael and Scottie.

beasted86
10-21-2013, 10:21 PM
Are you really going to sit here and imply prime GP wasn't worthy of that DPOY? I don't give a **** what the stats say.. Kemp was a slightly above average defender at his absolute best, while Gary Payton is in the discussion for the best perimeter defender of ALL TIME with Michael and Scottie.

Yes, I'm saying that Payton had no business winning a DPOY award.

Tony_Starks
10-21-2013, 10:32 PM
The media.

There was a clear media agenda during the 90s to award it to different people rather than attempt to choose the highest impact defender and if its the same person as previous years, so be it. Same reason Jordan wasn't MVP every year. I will say it was a nice thought to give awards in this fashion, but it left the criteria wide open for interpretation, and had no clear line of logic.

There was no logic whatsoever to Payton winning the award. His own teammate Kemp had better defensive advanced stats, and Hakeem, Mutumbo, Robinson, Mourning, etc... didn't just stop being in the league.

To say "there was no logic" is a monster exaggeration. GP actually made locking people up cool, while at the same time not sacrificing any of his offense or playmaking. There's a reason they got to the finals and it wasn't Shawn Kemp....

beasted86
10-21-2013, 10:46 PM
To say "there was no logic" is a monster exaggeration. GP actually made locking people up cool, while at the same time not sacrificing any of his offense or playmaking. There's a reason they got to the finals and it wasn't Shawn Kemp....
Shawn Kemp was an MVP caliber player at that time, he was definitely the #1 option and reason they were there. Payton was the best defensive PG at the time, but did not have the overall defensive impact of any of those Centers I just mentioned. Whether I was picking the best player, or best defensive player, I would never pick Payton over Hakeem, Mutumbo, Robinson, or Mourning. These guys affect far more possessions than Payton, and it's that simple. No knock on Payton as a defender.

Clippersfan86
10-21-2013, 11:13 PM
What the fu**?
95 http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_1995.html
96 http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_1996.html
97 http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_1997.html
98 http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_1998.html
99 http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_1999.html

Notice anything? Their prime years and not ONCE is Kemp ahead of Payton on MVP polling. Kemp makes the list one year in Seattle, Payton four. Kemp was NEVER superior as an all around player to Payton and Payton even scored more on a consistent level for most of their prime years. I find it odd that the supposed first option is taking less shots than his superstar teammate every year.

Clippersfan86
10-21-2013, 11:17 PM
Beasted did you know Payton scored 20+ ppg 8 seasons compared to 1 season for Kemp??? In the playoffs some series Kemp beasted like crazy but in general... he wasn't the undisputed 1st option.

beasted86
10-21-2013, 11:30 PM
Beasted did you know Payton scored 20+ ppg 8 seasons compared to 1 season for Kemp??? In the playoffs some series Kemp beasted like crazy but in general... he wasn't the undisputed 1st option.

The year they went to the Finals, I'd say he was the undisputed #1 option. Him playing as well as he did that year along with the team's collective stout defense is what helped them advance that far. Kemp was the only mismatch unguardable guy. Think Blake Griffin but better handles and speed in the open court, and a legit 15 footer.

Payton, Schrempf, etc... couldn't draw fouls and create the double teams like he did.

Clippersfan86
10-21-2013, 11:36 PM
Payton was also nursing injuries... generally speaking that was Payton's team and in general he scored more that year. I didn't know you were just cherry picking one specific series. Point is Payton>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Kemp. ESPECIALLY defensively which is what you were incorrectly saying was the other way around. If you said Kemp was the go to guy in the finals, I'd say true.. but to imply that EVER at any point Kemp was a better defender than Payton is inaccurate.

beasted86
10-21-2013, 11:38 PM
What the fu**?
95 http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_1995.html
96 http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_1996.html
97 http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_1997.html
98 http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_1998.html
99 http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_1999.html

Notice anything? Their prime years and not ONCE is Kemp ahead of Payton on MVP polling. Kemp makes the list one year in Seattle, Payton four. Kemp was NEVER superior as an all around player to Payton and Payton even scored more on a consistent level for most of their prime years. I find it odd that the supposed first option is taking less shots than his superstar teammate every year.

I know how this is going to come off as somebody elitist or whatever... but it has to be said. This is clearly an example of somebody who didn't watch either guy play and you are going off of basketball-reference to try and write history for you. Kemp was the #1 option when they went to the Finals. I don't need to look at any of your links to know that or try and refresh my mind. He didn't create the mismatches, didn't draw the fouls like a true #1.

Clippersfan86
10-21-2013, 11:45 PM
Actually no.. it's a case of you not being clear with your point. If you just said "In the finals Kemp was the go to scorer" I wouldn't have disagreed, as I said Payton was nursing injuries in that finals series vs the Bulls.

"There was no logic whatsoever to Payton winning the award. His own teammate Kemp had better defensive advanced stats"

Is the comment I was going after you for. You're telling me I'm just stat watching or w/e... but you throw out advanced stats to say that Kemp was superior to Payton defensively? That makes me question if YOU watched the Sonics then. Let me tell you a little secret. Before I became a Clippers fan in between 98 and 99... the team I followed and that even got me into basketball was the Sonics. Gary Payton was my favorite player and although I couldn't watch them too often in California.. I watched them every single chance I could. I read the news on them constantly and years later watched a lot of footage on the Sonics teams.

Kemp was a moderately above average defender at his absolute best, never great or elite the way Payton was. So I have a real problem with somebody saying Kemp was a better defender than prime Payton, yes I do.

Clippersfan86
10-21-2013, 11:51 PM
In general I can tell you're a true fan and I usually agree with you Beasted but maybe you're just forgetting how great Payton was defensively.

beasted86
10-22-2013, 12:00 AM
Actually no.. it's a case of you not being clear with your point. If you just said "In the finals Kemp was the go to scorer" I wouldn't have disagreed, as I said Payton was nursing injuries in that finals series vs the Bulls.

"There was no logic whatsoever to Payton winning the award. His own teammate Kemp had better defensive advanced stats"

Is the comment I was going after you for. You're telling me I'm just stat watching or w/e... but you throw out advanced stats to say that Kemp was superior to Payton defensively? That makes me question if YOU watched the Sonics then. Let me tell you a little secret. Before I became a Clippers fan in between 98 and 99... the team I followed and that even got me into basketball was the Sonics. Gary Payton was my favorite player and although I couldn't watch them too often in California.. I watched them every single chance I could. I read the news on them constantly and years later watched a lot of footage on the Sonics teams.

Kemp was a moderately above average defender at his absolute best, never great or elite the way Payton was. So I have a real problem with somebody saying Kemp was a better defender than prime Payton, yes I do.

I never said Kemp was better than him defensively. It was just to make a point.

There was clearly no defensive statistic, or otherwise to support Payton as DPOY, period. That was my point.

I don't know whether there was synergy sports or what back then, but there is just nothing at all to support Payton having the most defensive impact of any player in the NBA. I really can't fathom what logic they used to give him the award... not advanced stats, not any distinctive playoff or otherwise performance, nothing. He never had a bigger defensive impact than any of those Centers I mentioned.

And going back to the Payton vs. Kemp, who was the #1 option debate. Just out of curiosity I clicked on the links anyway. What's funny is that in 95-96 Penny finished 3rd in MVP voting while Shaq finished 9th. This clearly illustrates my point that MVP voting means nothing. There was never any point in time that Penny was better, equal, or even close to Shaq. It was always Shaq's team. Shaq was always the #1 option on the Magic, even if Penny was taking an equal amount of shots.

Kemp was the more dominant player and far more efficient than Payton in their years together in Seattle. He also pretty consistently outscored Payton with far better efficiency in the playoffs as well. He was there before Payton, he was the more established mismatch, it was really his team.

SPURSFAN1
10-22-2013, 12:09 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cy6uigdabDs

guarding the best player ever

"Defense is a big part of the story behind that picture. After the Seattle SuperSonics fell behind the Chicago Bulls 3-0 in the series, Seattle coach George Karl gave Payton the primary defensive assignment on Jordan. What followed was a small bit of NBA history: Payton held Jordan to 37 percent shooting and 23, 26 and 22 points over the next three games. It was the only time Jordan scored fewer than 30 points in three consecutive NBA Finals games. And certainly the only time an opponent D'd him up so defiantly.

It didn't matter that Payton was dealing with a calf injury that had him in an oxygen chamber after home games. No matter that Payton's offense was too valuable for him to get in foul trouble. He took on the assignment with zeal."

Clippersfan86
10-22-2013, 02:40 AM
Anybody arguing that Kemp was better than Payton or that he was the man on that team is dead wrong. You keep talking about better scorer yet Kemp never scored as much as Payton. I don't give a **** what stats we used, Payton was worthy of a DPOY award.

PacersForLife
10-22-2013, 04:47 AM
I don't understand why people say he is overrated defensively...

IndyRealist
10-22-2013, 08:26 AM
This is the crux of the "watch a game, nerd" anti-stat argument. They take a SMALL SAMPLE, in this case one playoffs, and apply it as a general rule for an entire career. Again, why the eye test is faulty. Sorry to harp on the issue, but some prominent ant-stat PSDers are in this thread.

D-Leethal
10-22-2013, 09:11 AM
I never said Kemp was better than him defensively. It was just to make a point.

There was clearly no defensive statistic, or otherwise to support Payton as DPOY, period. That was my point.

I don't know whether there was synergy sports or what back then, but there is just nothing at all to support Payton having the most defensive impact of any player in the NBA. I really can't fathom what logic they used to give him the award... not advanced stats, not any distinctive playoff or otherwise performance, nothing. He never had a bigger defensive impact than any of those Centers I mentioned.

And going back to the Payton vs. Kemp, who was the #1 option debate. Just out of curiosity I clicked on the links anyway. What's funny is that in 95-96 Penny finished 3rd in MVP voting while Shaq finished 9th. This clearly illustrates my point that MVP voting means nothing. There was never any point in time that Penny was better, equal, or even close to Shaq. It was always Shaq's team. Shaq was always the #1 option on the Magic, even if Penny was taking an equal amount of shots.

Kemp was the more dominant player and far more efficient than Payton in their years together in Seattle. He also pretty consistently outscored Payton with far better efficiency in the playoffs as well. He was there before Payton, he was the more established mismatch, it was really his team.

Using advanced stats to judge an individual players defense is a joke.

Unless you think NBA defense is 5 dudes playing 1 on 1 instead of 5 guys on a string guarding 5 guys.

Advanced defensive stats also tell you Steve Novak is a better defender than Shane Battier.

Hawkeye15
10-22-2013, 06:59 PM
Using advanced stats to judge an individual players defense is a joke.

Unless you think NBA defense is 5 dudes playing 1 on 1 instead of 5 guys on a string guarding 5 guys.

Advanced defensive stats also tell you Steve Novak is a better defender than Shane Battier.

there are a few metrics out there that shine a light on a players defense, but yeah, its so far below offense accepted stats it's ridiculous.

Clippersfan86
10-22-2013, 07:23 PM
there are a few metrics out there that shine a light on a players defense, but yeah, its so far below offense accepted stats it's ridiculous.

Was Shawn Kemp a better defender than Gary Payton is the question. :D

Hawkeye15
10-22-2013, 07:48 PM
Was Shawn Kemp a better defender than Gary Payton is the question. :D

no

Chronz
10-22-2013, 07:50 PM
Both Kemp and GP were on a great defensive team once they departed.

Pacerlive
10-22-2013, 11:24 PM
I don't understand why people say he is overrated defensively...
The fact is people don't know how much he is used defensively on the best player while guys like Lebron get to take plays off of guarding the best player and use a double player traps to generate their stats.

Tony Allen is a great defender but being a liability on offense limits his defensive useage indirectly. This is why I believe it's not wrong to look at some offense when handing out these awards. If he had more offense I think he would see more minutes and hence his value defensively would be greater.,