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View Full Version : Paul or Rose final 2 minutes?



RipCity32
10-20-2013, 05:42 PM
Watching these two PGs break down a defense in clutch time really is amazing. Who would you rather have in the final 2 minutes of a game?

PurpleLynch
10-20-2013, 05:48 PM
Right now Paul,he has more experience and an insane bball QI. So I'd take him,but Rose is close when healthy.

Clippersfan86
10-20-2013, 05:48 PM
In general CP3 is the best clutch player in the game pretty much. In every measurement of clutch he's top 5. Offensive rating, scoring rate, shooting percentages in a close game etc. So it's Chris Paul. Although Rose is definitely a top 5 clutch player himself when healthy probably right there with Irving, Parker, CP3 at the PG position.

Why is a Pistons fan asking this BTW? Forget this game? The video is even missing how clutch he was to even get to OT. Played terrible all game and CP3 carried us 4th quarter+OT.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-9peNx47n0

Minimal
10-20-2013, 05:49 PM
CP3 no question

RipCity32
10-20-2013, 05:58 PM
In general CP3 is the best clutch player in the game pretty much. In every measurement of clutch he's top 5. Offensive rating, scoring rate, shooting percentages in a close game etc. So it's Chris Paul. Although Rose is definitely a top 5 clutch player himself when healthy probably right there with Irving, Parker, CP3 at the PG position.

Why is a Pistons fan asking this BTW? Forget this game? The video is even missing how clutch he was to even get to OT. Played terrible all game and CP3 carried us 4th quarter+OT.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-9peNx47n0

Lol, I was just watching Rose play the other night and was thinking Hes hands down the best player going to the rim. Also obviously Paul is going to kill that lineup we had but no disrespect to Knights defense because he is a underrated defender.

Clippersfan86
10-20-2013, 06:12 PM
Lol, I was just watching Rose play the other night and was thinking Hes hands down the best player going to the rim. Also obviously Paul is going to kill that lineup we had but no disrespect to Knights defense because he is a underrated defender.

Rose is no doubt more unstoppable attacking offensively. But if you're talking about overall the guy who dominates the clutch more in all facets... it's CP3 clearly.

MrfadeawayJB
10-20-2013, 06:37 PM
If I had a good team is take Paul, a average team id want rose

meloman1592
10-20-2013, 07:06 PM
It's even....

Chill_Will_24
10-20-2013, 07:11 PM
Paul and its not even close. You can shut down a scorer but a guy that can hurt you in so many ways like Paul and makes the correct play 99% of the time its a lot tougher

TheNumber37
10-20-2013, 07:33 PM
Paul is a better defender, passer, rebounder and shooter... Rose is more athletic.

Paul.

Guppyfighter
10-20-2013, 07:35 PM
I'd take Paul all day every day.

RipCity32
10-20-2013, 07:36 PM
I'm going to go with Rose. I think his scoring ability driving to the rim is more valuable in the final 2 minutes of a close game. It really is a tough choice though.

jp611
10-20-2013, 07:41 PM
Paul.

Rose's career is over. Paralyzed from an ACL injury a year and a half ago.

Clippersfan86
10-20-2013, 07:41 PM
Paul.

Rose's career is over. Paralyzed from an ACL injury a year and a half ago.

Yup. He'll be lucky to ever play again... RIP Rose.

jp611
10-20-2013, 07:42 PM
I knew I was right about Beasley.

Bulls flubbed that one up.

Clippersfan86
10-20-2013, 07:43 PM
I'm going to go with Rose. I think his scoring ability driving to the rim is more valuable in the final 2 minutes of a close game. It really is a tough choice though.

Weird thing is CP3 scores more in the closing minutes and on much higher efficiency. Like I said Rose is a top 5 clutch PG and player but it's not really too comparable. I'd trust CP3 more to get a game winning bucket, stop and assist than Rose.

sammyvine
10-20-2013, 07:44 PM
Weird thing is CP3 scores more in the closing minutes and on much higher efficiency. Like I said Rose is a top 5 clutch PG and player but it's not really too comparable. I'd trust CP3 more to get a game winning bucket, stop and assist than Rose.

rose is the better all round player imo but cp3 is a better shooter so ill probs go with him

Clippersfan86
10-20-2013, 07:45 PM
The only PG who has the clutch numbers/efficiency of CP3 is Kyrie Irving but he's also maybe the worst defensive PG in the entire NBA which offsets his overall clutch value a lot obviously.

Furymaker
10-20-2013, 07:59 PM
Paul will give you better play option , surely will not make a mistake .
Rose can get at will to the rim , he'll give you a chance for sure , mistake is not excluded .

But I'd take Rose , I know he's going to show up , with Paul you can't tell , he strives in these kind of situations , but he doesn't always choose to take over the game .
It's a tie , but I'll take Derrick .

Knick_Fever
10-20-2013, 08:03 PM
Watching these two PGs break down a defense in clutch time really is amazing. Who would you rather have in the final 2 minutes of a game?

Pretty good comparison. Its pretty much the right play vs the right shot. Rose is my favorite player but I would go with CP3 on this one.

meloman1592
10-20-2013, 08:22 PM
2 of my 5 favorite players. There's no wrong answer

smiddy012
10-20-2013, 08:29 PM
If I had a good team is take Paul, a average team id want rose

Good answer.

This question should be posed mid or late season though. Rose's play isn't fresh on people's minds.

Cal827
10-20-2013, 08:30 PM
Ron Paul.

Jarvo
10-20-2013, 09:52 PM
Rose.

BIG worm
10-20-2013, 10:03 PM
Yea....Ill take Rose all day. CP3 is too passive to me sometimes.

Hawkize31
10-20-2013, 10:16 PM
I'd take CP3. You could just foul Rose in crunch-time and its a crapshoot if he makes the fts.

c.c.
10-20-2013, 10:22 PM
Paul hands down (right now)

Ill21
10-20-2013, 10:28 PM
Paul but I would also be happy with Rose

east fb knicks
10-20-2013, 10:28 PM
niether i'd go with curry :D

85BearsDefense
10-20-2013, 10:32 PM
Rose

85BearsDefense
10-20-2013, 10:44 PM
I'd take CP3. You could just foul Rose in crunch-time and its a crapshoot if he makes the fts.

He shoots 82% at the strip.

Chill_Will_24
10-20-2013, 10:45 PM
So the only people that picked Rose so far are the 3 Bulls fans and the guy that started the thread... pretty telling.

Paul is better hands down. You cant just put a good defender on Paul and shut him down. He is too smart and finds ways to make the correct plays at all times making his team better. You put a strong defender on Rose and he crumbles (see their matchup vs the Heat).

You call it passive and others would call it being the best PG in the league and making the correct plays. There is a reason he is one of the most efficient players in the league. He knows what to do and when to do it. Rose relies on his amazing athleticism to score and he does it well but thats it and he forces a lot against great defenses. Theres nothing wrong with being 2nd best to CP3 anymore than being second best to Floyd Money

Chill_Will_24
10-20-2013, 10:46 PM
He shoots 82% at the strip.

Yea idk what the hell that was about or where he was going with it.

Stunner
10-20-2013, 10:53 PM
So the only people that picked Rose so far are the 3 Bulls fans and the guy that started the thread... pretty telling.

Paul is better hands down. You cant just put a good defender on Paul and shut him down. He is too smart and finds ways to make the correct plays at all times making his team better. You put a strong defender on Rose and he crumbles (see their matchup vs the Heat).

You call it passive and others would call it being the best PG in the league and making the correct plays. There is a reason he is one of the most efficient players in the league. He knows what to do and when to do it. Rose relies on his amazing athleticism to score and he does it well but thats it and he forces a lot against great defenses. Theres nothing wrong with being 2nd best to CP3 anymore than being second best to Floyd Money

I'm getting sick of that Rose crumbles BS because it's not true . Rose has been clutch plenty of times Shooting and driving . You can't go wrong with either but my preference is Rose but I'll get called a homer .

KG2TB
10-20-2013, 10:56 PM
I'm going with Rose. Derrick is a great player in the clutch and has hit numerous game winners and willed his team to many wins. I love, LOVE CP3 and he's obviously an elite player in this game. What I want to know and what I will ask all of you is why is CP3 one of the only players who gets a pass on not getting far into the playoffs.

First off, I think CP3 got robbed on an MVP award. He should have won it over Kobe. That's my IMO. But for whatever reason CP3 gets some type of pass in not advancing deep in the playoffs even despite playing on a STACKED clippers team last season. I'll say this, you can't go wrong with either player. But Rose, who is younger and never missed the playoffs in his career, gets more backlash when his team doesn't advance to the finals and doesn't win a chip. Paul is one of the only players who somehow is immune to criticism in this regard. LeBron in his early days, Carmelo, Rose all get criticized for not carrying their team to the promise land. What's the furthest Paul got? Certainly, Rose is not a perfect player and was at fault for his playoff performance against Miami a couple years ago at 21 years of age. But I don't see this same type of microscope for Chris Paul. Especially since he played on one of the deepest teams in the league last year. Sure, he puts up nice advanced stats but IMO, that isn't the only measure of how great a player is. Like I said, I'm a huge Chris Paul fan but it's a bit perplexing how he doesn't take the same criticism for never leading his teams to the promise land or even deep in the playoffs. I'd like to hear some reasons why he's been immune to these criticisms despite playing on a stacked team. And like I said, he should have won an MVP award. I'm not a hater. Just a fan of basketball who is curious on this one player hasn't received as much criticism as other top players in the game.

b@llhog24
10-20-2013, 11:11 PM
Yea idk what the hell that was about or where he was going with it.

Probably this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJvLwSf0Xi8

b@llhog24
10-20-2013, 11:11 PM
Cp3 btw.

DallasTrilla23
10-20-2013, 11:13 PM
Paul. I just think that rose is gonna take the last shot wether it's a good shot or a bad shot

Paul is gonna take a good shot or find the open teammate.

Stunner
10-20-2013, 11:27 PM
Paul. I just think that rose is gonna take the last shot wether it's a good shot or a bad shot

Paul is gonna take a good shot or find the open teammate.


http://youtu.be/3xh5sNn09Pc

Chill_Will_24
10-20-2013, 11:36 PM
http://youtu.be/3xh5sNn09Pc

Really? You wanna play the highlight game?

Cuz CP3 has some of the most impressive highlights on the entire internet. Paul is better has always been better and i dont see him losing his top spot anytime soon not to Irving or Wall or Rose. See those circus shots wont always go down. Ill take an open teammate that Paul finds over a Rose ISO anyday

Stunner
10-20-2013, 11:40 PM
Really? You wanna play the highlight game?

Cuz CP3 has some of the most impressive highlights on the entire internet. Paul is better has always been better and i dont see him losing his top spot anytime soon not to Irving or Wall or Rose. See those circus shots wont always go down. Ill take an open teammate that Paul finds over a Rose ISO anyday

Nobody said he wasn't a better player than Rose so I don't get what you're getting at , I was just proving a point that Rose isn't as dumb in clutch situations as many has stated . He is very capable of making the right move . And For those " circus shots " most of the great players in the league hit those , takes a lot of will and skill . Paul , KD , Melo , Wade , Kobe and Bron have all shown the ability to hit those shot in any part of the game. Why discredit them because they have a knack ? You're just grasping for straws to down him as a player to make Paul look great . Question wasn't who isnt the better player it was who would you take , I chose Rose but I'm not stupid CP3 is the better Pg .

Cool007
10-20-2013, 11:58 PM
People are looking at Heat series of 2011 but totally forget about the Series vs Pacers. Also in 2012, he was the best Clutch PG in the NBA (before getting that ACL Tear in the Playoffs).


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTAXGYBE2o8

I just think if the last 2 games are any indication, Rose is going to surpass all the PGs this year - his big ? marks were efficiency compared to CP3 but this year he is taking it to another notch in that Dept.

Let's bring this thread up after mid-season or around Feb/March and we can compare.

Kyben36
10-21-2013, 12:15 AM
Rose IMO is more clutch and a better scorer, Paul is the better player, last two minutes you need somebody who will pull out a victory for you, never considered paul to have that.

Clippersfan86
10-21-2013, 12:23 AM
Rose IMO is more clutch and a better scorer, Paul is the better player, last two minutes you need somebody who will pull out a victory for you, never considered paul to have that.

Weird that Paul led the NBA in game winners in 2012 along with Dirk, last year was something like 4th or 5th and is top 3 in pretty much all significant clutch stats. Not addressing you picking Rose but to say Paul has never been considered somebody to pull out tough victories is a joke and so far from the truth. He's ALWAYS been known as clutch and cold blooded.

NYMetros
10-21-2013, 12:24 AM
Rose.

Chill_Will_24
10-21-2013, 01:14 AM
Nobody said he wasn't a better player than Rose so I don't get what you're getting at , I was just proving a point that Rose isn't as dumb in clutch situations as many has stated . He is very capable of making the right move . And For those " circus shots " most of the great players in the league hit those , takes a lot of will and skill . Paul , KD , Melo , Wade , Kobe and Bron have all shown the ability to hit those shot in any part of the game. Why discredit them because they have a knack ? You're just grasping for straws to down him as a player to make Paul look great . Question wasn't who isnt the better player it was who would you take , I chose Rose but I'm not stupid CP3 is the better Pg .

Except those are bad shots even if they go in. Just because a player hits a shot does not mean it was a good shot. If Lebron takes it inside and passes out to a wide open teammate who misses a 3 its still the better basketball play than say Melo taking in and forcing it against a double team and making the shot.

The playoffs are littered with these types of plays and its usually the player that makes the correct basketball play that gets his team the win.

Im not saying Rose cant hit those shots. I am saying that if im picking a player to take me to the finish line in the final 2 minutes i am picking Paul and not even just over Rose. I would pick Paul second only to Lebron in that situation

Stunner
10-21-2013, 01:36 AM
Those were bad shots based on what ? A bad shot is taking a jumper with 3 defenders on you . Rose has done that spin floater all of his life and agrabuly has the best floater behind Parker and the layup ? He got past his defender going up looking for contact like most players do in the league . Once again you're grasping for straws . It may be a bad shot to a player who isn't as skill or talented but to a player of the caliber of Rose he's use to it because he's done it so much . If it was Paul that did it you wouldn't be as critical lets be real .

Stunner
10-21-2013, 01:39 AM
And if this was worded as Clutch moment wouldn't you want the ball in your star players hand to make the best decision based on the situation on the court ? 9/10 you want your star player taking the shot . It's not a guarantee that their will be an open man and if there is Rose had shown he will make the play .

Stunner
10-21-2013, 01:42 AM
Kobe shots I'll advised shots all the time in clutch moments and get praised but if Rose does it's because his basketball iq isn't great . So hypocritical , end of the day the player who steps up to the Challange and wants to be the guy and has proven to succeed is a guy I want on my team .

FlashBolt
10-21-2013, 01:44 AM
Rose. Clutch? No. He's a choker.. Refer to Kansas and Miami Heat series. He's glorified for missing when it counts. Paul rises to the occasion.

*Superman*
10-21-2013, 01:54 AM
Tough. I've seen Paul do some amazing things in close games though, so I'd go with him.

bbcmillionaire
10-21-2013, 02:02 AM
Rose. Clutch? No. He's a choker.. Refer to Kansas and Miami Heat series. He's glorified for missing when it counts. Paul rises to the occasion.

Lol ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the nba forum

bbcmillionaire
10-21-2013, 02:09 AM
To me, there's 2 maybe three people I'd take over rose in the clutch, and cp3 isn't one of them.
1.kobe (clutch, his shots might not be the best look, but they go in and that's all that matter)
2.Durant(pure form)
3.lebron (because he demands sooo much attention)
4.Rose( I've seen just about every bulls game since 98 and rose comes through in the Clutch)

Chill_Will_24
10-21-2013, 03:09 AM
"Clutch " is a weird term and people define it different ways. Kobe (my fav player ) is overrated in that regard. He makes a lot of clutch shots because he takes a lot.

Joe Johnson led the league in made shots with under a minute left with a ridiculous 80%something percentage. Does that mean I would pick him over James Harden with 2 minutes left in the game?

The question was who would I want with 2 minutes left. Sorry to the Bulls homers but I don't trust Rose making the plays that Paul can with the game on the line and that much time left. Paul is better in those situations because he won't go "hero" mode and he will make the correct play and won't force it.
Insane basketball iq will take you a lot further as a pg with the ball in your hands than athletic scoring ability. EXAMPLE look at what Kidd did for a 26w team by himself and he did it with no scoring ability and no help.

With 20 seconds left I might take Rose between the 2 depending on the rosters. If it's Clippers roster Paul or Rose I pick Paul as he makes everyone on the floor a threat by himself. With the Bulls roster idk maybe Rose

CHIhatzi333
10-21-2013, 03:42 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wKwx27CYyQ

MyDRoseLikeDeng
10-21-2013, 04:23 AM
I'd take Paul but give me either one and I'll be giddy as hell

c.c.
10-21-2013, 04:59 AM
Lol I think Clippers and Bulls fans should not included in this thread :p

bbcmillionaire
10-21-2013, 05:13 AM
Lol I think Clippers and Bulls fans should not included in this thread :p

Lol then what about biased heat fans(who strangely love to visit bull related topics)?

Guppyfighter
10-21-2013, 05:23 AM
It's pretty obvious. It's Paul unless you are a Bulls fans or don't know what a basketball is and how to play.

Furymaker
10-21-2013, 05:58 AM
It's pretty obvious. It's Paul unless you are a Bulls fans or don't know what a basketball is and how to play.

Well , in last season when Rose won MVP and he was fully healthy
Paul - 41 games , 1 FGA in these kind of situations , FG 38.5% , 3pt 28.6% , FT 84.6% , TOV 0.1 , AST 0.5 , win% .610
Rose - 38 games , 1.8 FGA , FG 41% , 30% 3pt , FT 85.4% , TOV 0.3, AST 0.4 , team win% in these games .710

So obvious winner here is Paul ?

Raphael
10-21-2013, 10:01 AM
Rose, and it's not even close.

jp611
10-21-2013, 10:44 AM
http://youtu.be/3xh5sNn09Pc

Deng hit a game winner against the Heat a few years ago due to the double team they had on Derrick, he kicked it out to the baseline and Luol nailed it

People have short memories, Rose is an awesome passer as well, but gets criticized because he's really ****ing good at scoring... NBA forum is full of dumb

jp611
10-21-2013, 10:48 AM
Rose. Clutch? No. He's a choker.. Refer to Kansas and Miami Heat series. He's glorified for missing when it counts. Paul rises to the occasion.

Yep. Nailed it here.

CP3 has led his team to all those championships, while Rose sits at home. :rolleyes:

jp611
10-21-2013, 10:49 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wKwx27CYyQ

I don't think Paul has ever beaten Rose head to head

Kashmir13579
10-21-2013, 10:55 AM
The question should be Bulls or Clippers in the final two minutes. I'll take Bulls. If CP3 was on the Bulls and Rose on the Clips, i'd still take the Bulls.

Kashmir13579
10-21-2013, 10:55 AM
Rose, and it's not even close.

lol why? Its essentially a proven fact that Chris Paul led teams flourish offensively in the final 2 minutes. It was true when he was on scrub teams in NO. Rose is routinely backed by the best interior defense in the league so he has that in his favor in the final 2 minutes.

It is close, and if it isn't, i'd lean more in the direction of Paul because like i said, he's a proven clutch player individually and as a catalyst for his team.

Chill_Will_24
10-21-2013, 11:15 AM
Conversations with Bulls fans about Rose never go anywhere.

Chill_Will_24
10-21-2013, 11:17 AM
He also has a terrible record vs Deron doesn't mean you take DWill. Lol head to head matchups

Also as someone said the defense in Chicago is what wins them games. That was proven by their 5th seed and 2nd round appearance last year without Rose. Would the Clips even be a playoff team without Paul?

jp611
10-21-2013, 11:29 AM
He also has a terrible record vs Deron doesn't mean you take DWill. Lol head to head matchups

Also as someone said the defense in Chicago is what wins them games. That was proven by their 5th seed and 2nd round appearance last year without Rose. Would the Clips even be a playoff team without Paul?

And with Rose the Bulls are a one seed and at minimum in the ECF

jp611
10-21-2013, 11:30 AM
Head to head isn't end all be all

But you'd think CP3 could beat him one time if he's so superior to him

effen5
10-21-2013, 11:33 AM
Well , in last season when Rose won MVP and he was fully healthy
Paul - 41 games , 1 FGA in these kind of situations , FG 38.5% , 3pt 28.6% , FT 84.6% , TOV 0.1 , AST 0.5 , win% .610
Rose - 38 games , 1.8 FGA , FG 41% , 30% 3pt , FT 85.4% , TOV 0.3, AST 0.4 , team win% in these games .710

So obvious winner here is Paul ?

I like stats and this guy is the only that provided stats.

Plus I've seen Rose play every game...and I'd take Rose over Paul anyday. I'd take Rose over 99 percent of the players to be honest...he's just that cold blooded with 2 minutes to go.

effen5
10-21-2013, 11:34 AM
Head to head isn't end all be all

But you'd think CP3 could beat him one time if he's so superior to him

Well CP3's never had the talent on his team....oh wait....

jp611
10-21-2013, 11:46 AM
Well CP3's never had the talent on his team....oh wait....

I find it hilarious how people say the Bulls have much better talent when it is convenient for their argument

In reality we know LAC is stacked, yet they can't make it out of the second round

Why can't the clutch performer will his team to victory?

jp611
10-21-2013, 11:47 AM
But they have Doc now

He's gonna cure cancer and AIDS while leading the Clippers to 10 championships in 10 years

MonroeFAN
10-21-2013, 12:06 PM
I'll go ahead and go with Paul, since he has an actual skill set and doesn't run to the basket for every play flailing his arms about.

jp611
10-21-2013, 12:09 PM
I'll go ahead and go with Paul, since he has an actual skill set and doesn't run to the basket for every play flailing his arms about.

You seem upset

Funny how you say this when CP3 is King Flop

MonroeFAN
10-21-2013, 12:11 PM
Derrick Rose is king nothing.

Yeah, I'm upset. The guy is ruining the NBA. Him and Wade, together they have half the amount of talent players like Lebron and Paul have.

Goose17
10-21-2013, 12:15 PM
I'll take Rose.

MonroeFAN
10-21-2013, 12:15 PM
Alright I'm clearly talking out of my anus at this point. Not a rose fan, but I'm obviously going a bit over-board here.

Still, just can't get on board with his game.

Chill_Will_24
10-21-2013, 12:16 PM
Please. While Rose was on the sidelines and clubs watching his teammates be warriors the league changed. I see Bulls getting a top seed again but ECF? Nah

Also those stats are so out of context. Idk what they even represent cuz the question is which players I want in the last 2 minutes. Only situation I want Rose ovet Paul is with 2 seconds left down 2

Stunner
10-21-2013, 12:21 PM
People still giving Rose heat for sitting because he didn't feel confident about beating the double team with his knee ? Get over it already . And if the Bulls do get a top seed in the East I like their chances if getting to the ECF . I'm still waiting on Paul to get to the WCF .

Stunner
10-21-2013, 12:25 PM
It's crazy that Rose gets more heat than CP3 , maybe because people are tired of the fake Bulls fans making Rose seem like a god .

FlashBolt
10-21-2013, 12:25 PM
Rose is cold blooded? Cold blooded individuals will do whatever it takes to kill you. How can one kill when they aren't stepping inside the jungle?

jp611
10-21-2013, 12:34 PM
Alright I'm clearly talking out of my anus at this point. Not a rose fan, but I'm obviously going a bit over-board here.

Still, just can't get on board with his game.

I would be mad if my team went out and got Brandon Jennings AND Josh Smith in the same offseason too

Stunner
10-21-2013, 12:37 PM
Rose is cold blooded? Cold blooded individuals will do whatever it takes to kill you. How can one kill when they aren't stepping inside the jungle?

Lol

Clippersfan86
10-21-2013, 12:56 PM
But they have Doc now

He's gonna cure cancer and AIDS while leading the Clippers to 10 championships in 10 years

Lots of ignorance from you. First off the Bulls would be a 1st and 2nd round exit in the west too. Secondly Paul has had two runs in LA and in the first one got to the second round despite himself and the 4 other best players on the team including Blake carrying pretty significant injuries. That was before losing to the juggernaut 2012 Spurs which were on a 19 game win streak and coming off 9 days rest (compared to the Clippers 1).

Then this year again far more banged up than the opponent and coached by VINNY DEL NEGRO the Clippers lose to a team with the same 56 wins, who quite frankly deserve to be called better than we were last year in the Grizzlies, considering they went on to the WCF. Both opponents we lost to went to the WCF, Clippers haven't really been disappointing if you look at it logically.

If you have to mock the difference from Vinny to Doc as a Bulls fan who went from Vinny to Thibs you're either a new bandwagon Bulls fan in the last few years or you don't know basketball as well as you think you do.

Goose17
10-21-2013, 12:58 PM
I would be mad if my team went out and got Brandon Jennings AND Josh Smith in the same offseason too

I genuinely lol'd. Nicely played.

Clippersfan86
10-21-2013, 12:58 PM
I have to say I've lost a lot of respect for the Bulls fans here the last few weeks, not that you all care. I don't expect the longer tenured Bulls fans with 50k posts and decent basketball knowledge to be such homers and flood the threads with all the drama every time the Bulls are brought up. Hands down the most insecure fanbase on PSD in my observation. Knicks, Heat and Lakers fans here can't compare even.

jp611
10-21-2013, 01:04 PM
I have to say I've lost a lot of respect for the Bulls fans here the last few weeks, not that you all care. I don't expect the longer tenured Bulls fans with 50k posts and decent basketball knowledge to be such homers and flood the threads with all the drama every time the Bulls are brought up. Hands down the most insecure fanbase on PSD in my observation. Knicks, Heat and Lakers fans here can't compare even.

No ones insecure. They just use their head.

For the record, Paul has been more clutch in his career, I just find it hilarious how people give CP3 a pass but just hammer Rose

Clippersfan86
10-21-2013, 01:07 PM
No ones insecure. They just use their head.

For the record, Paul has been more clutch in his career, I just find it hilarious how people give CP3 a pass but just hammer Rose

Show me where I didn't give Rose his due? I said he's definitely in the discussion with Paul for best PG and is a top PG in the clutch, just not quite as reliable as CP3. Even in that Rose sore knee thread I made.. not ONCE was I one of those saying he wouldn't come back the same. In other words, I've never picked at Rose. In fact I was becoming a big fan of him when he went down with the ACL because unlike Westbrook... I saw Rose becoming more of a playmaker and a guy who was making beautiful, elite PG level passes.

jp611
10-21-2013, 01:09 PM
Show me where I didn't give Rose his due? I said he's definitely in the discussion with Paul for best PG and is a top PG in the clutch, just not quite as reliable as CP3. Even in that Rose sore knee thread I made.. not ONCE was I one of those saying he wouldn't come back the same. In other words, I've never picked at Rose. In fact I was becoming a big fan of him when he went down with the ACL because unlike Westbrook... I saw Rose becoming more of a playmaker and a guy who was making beautiful, elite PG level passes.

Not everything is about you

Get over yourself

ramsizzle
10-21-2013, 01:13 PM
Lots of ignorance from you. First off the Bulls would be a 1st and 2nd round exit in the west too. Secondly Paul has had two runs in LA and in the first one got to the second round despite himself and the 4 other best players on the team including Blake carrying pretty significant injuries. That was before losing to the juggernaut 2012 Spurs which were on a 19 game win streak and coming off 9 days rest (compared to the Clippers 1).

Then this year again far more banged up than the opponent and coached by VINNY DEL NEGRO the Clippers lose to a team with the same 56 wins, who quite frankly deserve to be called better than we were last year in the Grizzlies, considering they went on to the WCF. Both opponents we lost to went to the WCF, Clippers haven't really been disappointing if you look at it logically.

If you have to mock the difference from Vinny to Doc as a Bulls fan who went from Vinny to Thibs you're either a new bandwagon Bulls fan in the last few years or you don't know basketball as well as you think you do.

Fyi ... Rose and Thibs led Bulls teams have dominated the west. But sure in your made up scenario they are 1st and 2nd round exits ;)

Vinny is trash though....

Clippersfan86
10-21-2013, 01:20 PM
Not everything is about you

Get over yourself

You quoted me... it's not logical to quote somebody while crying wolf, then say "get over yourself" when I respond.

jp611
10-21-2013, 01:21 PM
You quoted me... it's not logical to quote somebody while crying wolf, then say "get over yourself" when I respond.

Context. Learn it.

Clippersfan86
10-21-2013, 01:21 PM
Fyi ... Rose and Thibs led Bulls teams have dominated the west. But sure in your made up scenario they are 1st and 2nd round exits ;)

Vinny is trash though....

What I should say is there would be a decent possibility of a 1st or 2nd round exit. Whether or not you own the west supposedly... it's much tougher and harder to find success. I just can't wrap my mind around a Bulls fan mocking the leap from Vinny to Doc (considering how night and day better you guys also got with a top 5 coach, post Vinny).

Clippersfan86
10-21-2013, 01:22 PM
Context. Learn it.

You're a funny guy jpro. Would you be interested in letting me take you out for a date?

Furymaker
10-21-2013, 01:31 PM
we surely now better than clippers fans just how good or better said , terrible , Vinny Del Negro is .
You can bash all Bulls fans as much as you want , lose respect for Bulls , hate on us , Rose or whoever you want , that doesn't change the fact CP3 proved nothing in playoffs , stacked team , got their *** kicked in playoffs .
As much as I love CP3's playmaking and efficiency , I hate him for not being more aggressive and try more to take over the games . He's great player , but I don't see him in same rank as Rose , KD , Lebron , Kobe , Curry even Melo sometimes while they're taking over the game . These players are actually capable of getting me out of my seat while they're taking over , while Paul does that too sometimes , he's way too passive , and that's one of the reason I'll take Rose and not Paul , he just doesn't have that cold blooded killer instinct Kobe talked at start of Rose's MVP year .
All other members who took Rose instead of Paul probably share same thoughts as I do , and yet they didn't come here and said they're losing respect for Paul's/LAC fans .

Ooh and yeah , all that BS about Bulls being 1st round exit in West is crap , Bulls destroyed West last few seasons when Rose actually played , he trashed both Spurs and Mavs ( your best team these 2 seasons ), not to mention what he did to LAC , Memphis , Lakers . OKC is only team that was capable of disturbing Bulls these seasons

ramsizzle
10-21-2013, 01:34 PM
What I should say is there would be a decent possibility of a 1st or 2nd round exit. Whether or not you own the west supposedly... it's much tougher and harder to find success. I just can't wrap my mind around a Bulls fan mocking the leap from Vinny to Doc (considering how night and day better you guys also got with a top 5 coach, post Vinny).

What you are saying is you hope that the lack of success cp3 has is due to competition and not on cp3... ypu are doing this by slighting the bulls and saying that they would be a 2nd round exit in order to make yourself feel better. Nothing statistically has ever showed that the bulls with Rose and Thibs are less than a top 3 team in the nba, regardless of conference. Take your cp3 complex elsewhere, the bulls are more than happy with Rose.

jp611
10-21-2013, 01:37 PM
You're a funny guy jpro. Would you be interested in letting me take you out for a date?

Seriously, re read the post

It was clearly not directed at you, I said I find it hilarious how PEOPLE give CP3 a pass but just hammer on Rose

I was quoting your post to respond to how Bulls fans get "insecure"

They don't, they just get annoyed with stupid

jp611
10-21-2013, 01:40 PM
The Western Conference has more parity

But the Eastern Conference is more top heavy

So tired of that fallacy being thrown around

Clippersfan86
10-21-2013, 01:51 PM
Eastern conference is more top heavy? Then why is it that last year 5 of the top 6 records in the NBA were in the west? If you shifted over the top 5 records in the west only the Heat would remain top 5 out east. Other eastern conference contenders like the Pacers won 47 games for example, the 5 seed Grizzlies won 56 in the west.

So the west is both more top heavy with contenders and deeper at least last year and until PROVEN otherwise. Bulls success is becoming rather overrated. One ECF appearance when the only contenders in the east were the Celtics and Heat. Do Bulls fans remember their first round opponent in 2011 was the 37 win Pacers? Followed by the Hawks which took them to 6, despite being the inferior team. I mean the acting like this was a juggernaut team that would smoke the west is laughable.

If the Bulls faced the 2013 Grizzlies in the first round or 2012 Spurs in the 2nd... I have no doubt they have a solid chance of getting ousted. Good team, legit contender but Bulls fans act like the team has had tons of recent success.

Clippersfan86
10-21-2013, 01:55 PM
Seriously, re read the post

It was clearly not directed at you, I said I find it hilarious how PEOPLE give CP3 a pass but just hammer on Rose

I was quoting your post to respond to how Bulls fans get "insecure"

They don't, they just get annoyed with stupid

Like I said.... even before being a Clippers fan I'd say CP3 deserves a pass. It's for the simple fact that he's never lost to worse teams in the playoffs as I said earlier. He's losing to better teams and carrying players not stepping up, what are we going to get mad about? Has nothing to do with Rose. Last year everybody on our team folded or got hurt, while CP3 was the only one stepping up.. so how can you go after him? The year before... he was playing with a pretty nasty injury AND lost to a far superior team in the 2012 Spurs.

This is the first year of CP3's career where the talent+coaching are there to make a truly deep run and if he doesn't get out of the 2nd round, heavy criticism will start.

Stunner
10-21-2013, 01:58 PM
Lol Bulls success is overrated now ? Man I can't wait till next Tuesday

Stunner
10-21-2013, 02:03 PM
Only reason that Paul gets a pass is because he's nice , Paul is the PG version of T Mac during the playoffs . Great Stats no WCF .

effen5
10-21-2013, 02:09 PM
I would be mad if my team went out and got Brandon Jennings AND Josh Smith in the same offseason too

:laugh:

ramsizzle
10-21-2013, 02:13 PM
Like I said.... even before being a Clippers fan I'd say CP3 deserves a pass. It's for the simple fact that he's never lost to worse teams in the playoffs as I said earlier. He's losing to better teams and carrying players not stepping up, what are we going to get mad about? Has nothing to do with Rose. Last year everybody on our team folded or got hurt, while CP3 was the only one stepping up.. so how can you go after him? The year before... he was playing with a pretty nasty injury AND lost to a far superior team in the 2012 Spurs.

This is the first year of CP3's career where the talent+coaching are there to make a truly deep run and if he doesn't get out of the 2nd round, heavy criticism will start.

He lost to a Rudy Gayless Grizzlies last year.... You guys also won 7 in a row before that, so the clips were hot. That is a team they should have beat.

ramsizzle
10-21-2013, 02:16 PM
Eastern conference is more top heavy? Then why is it that last year 5 of the top 6 records in the NBA were in the west? If you shifted over the top 5 records in the west only the Heat would remain top 5 out east. Other eastern conference contenders like the Pacers won 47 games for example, the 5 seed Grizzlies won 56 in the west.

So the west is both more top heavy with contenders and deeper at least last year and until PROVEN otherwise. Bulls success is becoming rather overrated. One ECF appearance when the only contenders in the east were the Celtics and Heat. Do Bulls fans remember their first round opponent in 2011 was the 37 win Pacers? Followed by the Hawks which took them to 6, despite being the inferior team. I mean the acting like this was a juggernaut team that would smoke the west is laughable.

If the Bulls faced the 2013 Grizzlies in the first round or 2012 Spurs in the 2nd... I have no doubt they have a solid chance of getting ousted. Good team, legit contender but Bulls fans act like the team has had tons of recent success.

The thing is the bulls have more playoff success with rose than any Paul led team... IF Rose and the bulls have overrated playoff success what is to be said about cp3's career?

Clippersfan86
10-21-2013, 02:19 PM
He lost to a Rudy Gayless Grizzlies last year.... You guys also won 7 in a row before that, so the clips were hot. That is a team they should have beat.

The "Rudy Gayless" Grizzlies were superior to the Grizzlies the previous year and I'm positive most Grizzlies fans will back me on that. Sure maybe pure talent wise a small drop off... but addition by subtraction due to players that filled in who were far more unselfish and more effective on defense. The Clippers should have won given they were up 2-0 but the fact that they lost 4 in a row after that by double digits proves the Grizzlies were better last year, or at the very worst equals. Getting hot and beating average teams in a win streak to end the year doesn't make them better.

Trust me... it's not easy for me to admit my team's biggest rival is better than my team, but it's the reality last year come playoff time. Now I would argue the Clippers were more TALENTED top to bottom... but the Grizzlies had the chemistry and coaching which gave them the edge. More of their guys stepped up, more of ours shrunk.

Tony_Starks
10-21-2013, 02:20 PM
D Rose. Love CP3s game but I'd be much more concerned about Rose in crunch time....

Clippersfan86
10-21-2013, 02:21 PM
The thing is the bulls have more playoff success with rose than any Paul led team... IF Rose and the bulls have overrated playoff success what is to be said about cp3's career?

If by more success you mean winning two more games peak vs peak playoff run, in the much weaker east... then yes Rose has had more success. I'm sorry but I don't see much of a difference between game 7 of the 2nd round in the west and getting dominated 1-4 in the eastern conference finals and getting backdoor swept. Nevermind that the mid 00's in the west when that happened to CP3 was a complete slaughterhouse like it is now.

jp611
10-21-2013, 02:24 PM
So CP3 gets a pass because you're a homer?

Got it

ramsizzle
10-21-2013, 02:26 PM
If by more success you mean winning two more games peak vs peak playoff run, in the much weaker east... then yes Rose has had more success. I'm sorry but I don't see much of a difference between game 7 of the 2nd round in the west and getting dominated 1-4 in the eastern conference finals and getting backdoor swept. Nevermind that the mid 00's in the west when that happened to CP3 was a complete slaughterhouse like it is now.

Dominated ha? there was one blowout in 2011 and that was by the bulls... every game was close and cp3 has never been that close ever. The west was not as good as either of those teams. Backdoor swept? Your lack of knowledge and clear agenda are making this a useless argument. Comparing a 2nd round exit to playing the heat close every game.... ive officially seen it all.

Oh and during the mid 2000's there was no cp3 and playoffs, his first appearance was in 08...
and he still hasn't done anything since...

Clippersfan86
10-21-2013, 02:26 PM
So CP3 gets a pass because you're a homer?

Got it

YOU calling anybody on this board a homer is pretty funny. Sure I'm a homer, but that has nothing to do with this particular discussion, considering what I'm saying is fair and valid.

ramsizzle
10-21-2013, 02:29 PM
YOU calling anybody on this board a homer is pretty funny. Sure I'm a homer, but that has nothing to do with this particular discussion, considering what I'm saying is fair and valid.

Nothing you have said is fair and valid... its actually quite the opposite.

Clippersfan86
10-21-2013, 02:30 PM
Dominated ha? there was one blowout in 2011 and that was by the bulls... every game was close and cp3 has never been that close ever. The west was not as good as either of those teams. Backdoor swept? Your lack of knowledge and clear agenda are making this a useless argument. Comparing a 2nd round exit to playing the heat close every game.... ive officially seen it all.

What I see is the Bulls won just one game in the ECF and two more than CP3's best run and you're talking like Rose has had so much more success than CP3 LMAO. Yes backdoor swept... the Bulls won game 1 and then proceeded to get swept. Doesn't surprise me the games were close considering the Bulls won 4 more games in the regular seed and were hyped as the team that could/should stop Miami.

Thing is that was the "Big 3's" first year together and despite the insane talent they weren't a particularly cohesive unit, playing against the number 1 defense in the league (by far the Bulls were). If they played the Heat the last two years who were much better, the results get uglier, even with Rose.

ramsizzle
10-21-2013, 02:34 PM
What I see is the Bulls won just one game in the ECF and two more than CP3's best run and you're talking like Rose has had so much more success than CP3 LMAO. Yes backdoor swept... the Bulls won game 1 and then proceeded to get swept. Doesn't surprise me the games were close considering the Bulls won 4 more games in the regular seed and were hyped as the team that could/should stop Miami.

Thing is that was the "Big 3's" first year together and despite the insane talent they weren't a particularly cohesive unit, playing against the number 1 defense in the league (by far the Bulls were). If they played the Heat the last two years who were much better, the results get uglier, even with Rose.

again a paragraph of nonsense... why would it get uglier? why would only the heat become a cohesive unit and not the bulls? why? Because you hope so, that is the only reason why....Backdoor swept is what the Grizz did to you guys, winning the last 4 by double digits. The bulls were in every game but the better team won. The same can't be said for the clippers.

Cp3 scored 8 points in a playoff game this year... 8 points. He is borderline t-mac, though T-mac had less talent than this clippers squad.

Chronz
10-21-2013, 02:34 PM
CP3 fairly easily. By any logical barometer, its him. Wheres that stat that shows how far his team shoots up in close game situations, despite not having the talent to do so.

What you guys dont understand is just how pathetic his teams have done in CP3's absence throughout his career, and hes had some quality backups over the years as well. Whereas the Bulls were a team that won with defense first, relied on their system and quality depth. They truly win by attrition and teamwork. When you have a coach like Thibs and lots of defense first players, you can get away with that. When your a team utterly reliant on CP3 to create not only for himself at a high level but for the rest of the team, thats when your work load is truly 1 of a kind.

There is no greater treat than watching CP3 play in the clutch, you kind of wish he would play like that more often but he knows hes not the athlete he used to be, he only summons that kind of performance when he feels its absolutely necessary.

ramsizzle
10-21-2013, 02:37 PM
CP3 fairly easily. By any logical barometer, its him. Wheres that stat that shows how far his team shoots up in close game situations, despite not having the talent to do so.

What you guys dont understand is just how pathetic his teams have done in CP3's absence throughout his career, and hes had some quality backups over the years as well. Whereas the Bulls were a team that won with defense first, relied on their system and quality depth. They truly win by attrition and teamwork. When you have a coach like Thibs and lots of defense first players, you can get away with that. When your a team utterly reliant on CP3 to create not only for himself at a high level but for the rest of the team, thats when your work load is truly 1 of a kind.

There is no greater treat than watching CP3 play in the clutch, you kind of wish he would play like that more often but he knows hes not the athlete he used to be, he only summons that kind of performance when he feels its absolutely necessary.

The playoffs aren't absolutely necessary huh? Ugh...

Clippersfan86
10-21-2013, 02:39 PM
again a paragraph of nonsense... why would it get uglier? why would only the heat become a cohesive unit and not the bulls? why? Because you hope so, that is the only reason why....Backdoor swept is what the Grizz did to you guys, winning the last 4 by double digits. The bulls were in every game but the better team won. The same can't be said for the clippers.

Cp3 scored 8 points in a playoff game this year... 8 points. He is borderline t-mac, though T-mac had less talent than this clippers squad.

Impossible to score 8 points for Rose when he's attempted 23+ FG on AVERAGE in the playoffs. Did you know the guy shot sub 40 percent in the playoffs the last two seasons (one was just for a game)?? CP3 is far more likely to score less.. because he's a pass first PG. That would be like me bringing up the games where Rose has less than 5 assists or plays terrible D, it's just dumb.

Rose's playoff numbers look a lot like Allen Iverson's to me in terms of scoring efficiency in recent years. Fu** ton of field goal attempts, poor shooting percentages and efficiency. Not hard to score 20+ ppg when you're getting up 20-30 shots every single night.

Clippersfan86
10-21-2013, 02:41 PM
The playoffs aren't absolutely necessary huh? Ugh...

Paul statistically is a top 5 playoff performer all time, not sure what you're missing here.

Chronz
10-21-2013, 02:43 PM
The playoffs aren't absolutely necessary huh? Ugh...
What do you mean? He plays better in the playoffs IMO, well so long as hes not hurt.

Clippersfan86
10-21-2013, 02:43 PM
Dupe.

ramsizzle
10-21-2013, 02:44 PM
Impossible to score 8 points for Rose when he's attempted 23+ FG on AVERAGE in the playoffs. Did you know the guy shot sub 40 percent in the playoffs the last two seasons (one was just for a game)?? CP3 is far more likely to score less.. because he's a pass first PG. That would be like me bringing up the games where Rose has less than 5 assists or plays terrible D, it's just dumb.

Well Rose is a better defender than Paul... that won't be an argument you will win. 3 Playoff games with less than 5 assists. In fact... cp3 has more games with less than 5 assists than Rose. You have again proved yourself wrong and borderline incompetent when speaking on Rose... Anything else you would like me to disprove?

Goose17
10-21-2013, 02:45 PM
I'm going to change my answer.

CP3 for the last 2 minutes.

Rose for the last 20 seconds.


It depends on the clutch situation, I see Rose as a better closer personally (especially with less than a minute on the clock) although I haven't checked the numbers. And although he's an underrated playmaker, he's not as good as CP3. And if I had 2 minutes to run a play I would want CP3 running it.

ramsizzle
10-21-2013, 02:46 PM
What do you mean? He plays better in the playoffs IMO, well so long as hes not hurt.

So when they don't win its his teammates fault and when he does win it was on the back of Paul ha? He plays better but the team does worse....

Clippersfan86
10-21-2013, 02:50 PM
Well Rose is a better defender than Paul... that won't be an argument you will win. 3 Playoff games with less than 5 assists. You have again proved yourself wrong and borderline incompetent when speaking on Rose... Anything else you would like me to disprove?

Wait.... Rose is the better defender? Why is it then that MANY rival coaches have called Paul our true defensive general? Why is it that Paul is a two time defending All NBA Defense 1st team selection? Rose has been a solid defensive player at best, Paul is a well above average one. Wasn't there a chart shown here not long ago that the Bulls are better defensively when they bench Rose for Hinrich and other backup PG's they have had?

Paul is the more fundamentally sound, efficient defender... although Rose has the talent and physical tools to be the better defender when he really locks in. BTW the assist comment wasn't meant to be precise... it was a general statement, bump the assists to 10 if you want it to be literal. They aren't the same kind of PG's so it's idiotic to bash CP3 for scoring 8 one game. If CP3 took 23 shots per game, he's score 20+ every game.

Clippersfan86
10-21-2013, 02:53 PM
So when they don't win its his teammates fault and when he does win it was on the back of Paul ha? He plays better but the team does worse....

Have you watched the teams he's been on? With the Clippers... injuries+lack of experience in other players have made it to where CP3 WAS indeed carrying the team essentially. In New Orleans... he carried a team filled with no other legit all star next to him and going against brutal western conference teams like Melo's WCF Nuggets roster and the borderline dynasty Spurs.

ramsizzle
10-21-2013, 02:54 PM
Wait.... Rose is the better defender? Why is it then that MANY rival coaches have called Paul our true defensive general? Why is it that Paul is a two time defending All NBA Defense 1st team selection? Rose has been a solid defensive player at best, Paul is a well above average one. Wasn't there a chart shown here not long ago that the Bulls are better defensively when they bench Rose for Hinrich and other backup PG's they have had?

Paul is the more fundamentally sound, efficient defender... although Rose has the talent and physical tools to be the better defender when he really locks in.

You don't know any of that... fundamentally sound and efficient? You don't watch game tape, do not pretend like you do. Paul has made those lists on reputation, and synergy had Rose at number one at pts per possession by a decent margin in his mvp year and was an even better defender before the injury. Please stop speaking on Rose, every single thing you have mentioned is simply untrue. The bulls will be on national TV a lot this year, feel free to tune in and actually watch.

ramsizzle
10-21-2013, 02:55 PM
Have you watched the teams he's been on? With the Clippers... injuries+lack of experience in other players have made it to where CP3 WAS indeed carrying the team essentially. In New Orleans... he carried a team filled with no other legit all star next to him and going against brutal western conference teams like Melo's WCF Nuggets roster and the borderline dynasty Spurs.

The bulls went to the ECF with injuries everywhere... had a number 2 option in boozer have turf toe and deng hurt, yet still played the heat very well.. enough with the excuses.

Guppyfighter
10-21-2013, 02:58 PM
The Western Conference has more parity

But the Eastern Conference is more top heavy

So tired of that fallacy being thrown around

Hope you realize the second seed in the East (the Knicks) with their record would have been a sixth seed in the West. West is better and it is not close.

Clippersfan86
10-21-2013, 02:58 PM
The bulls went to the ECF with injuries everywhere... had a number 2 option in boozer have turf toe and deng hurt, yet still played the heat very well.. enough with the excuses.

Which doesn't change anything I've said really. Bottom line is CP3 is a top 5 playoff performer in NBA history probably, Rose is nowhere close to that and two extra playoff wins in the much weaker conference doesn't make Rose some beast who dominates in the playoffs, while CP3 underachieves. It's an argument that was doomed from the start from you guys.

Guppyfighter
10-21-2013, 02:59 PM
Like I said, there are Bulls fans, people who'd pick Paul, and the rest don't know what basketball is. It's really that simple. Chris Paul is a cold blooded mother****er and he's the best PG in the NBA as well as the the third best player.

Clippersfan86
10-21-2013, 02:59 PM
You don't know any of that... fundamentally sound and efficient? You don't watch game tape, do not pretend like you do. Paul has made those lists on reputation, and synergy had Rose at number one at pts per possession by a decent margin in his mvp year and was an even better defender before the injury. Please stop speaking on Rose, every single thing you have mentioned is simply untrue. The bulls will be on national TV a lot this year, feel free to tune in and actually watch.

I watch game tape by watching the playoffs every single game I can, as well as obviously watching a fu** ton of games during the season. Paul made defensive lists on reputation lol? He's always been known as a tenacious, above average defender but didn't even make a defensive 1st team until the last two years.

Clippersfan86
10-21-2013, 03:00 PM
Like I said, there are Bulls fans, people who'd pick Paul, and the rest don't know what basketball is. It's really that simple. Chris Paul is a cold blooded mother****er and he's the best PG in the NBA as well as the the third best player.

Somebody earlier said... they would never think of Paul as a clutch player lolz.

ramsizzle
10-21-2013, 03:02 PM
Which doesn't change anything I've said really. Bottom line is CP3 is a top 5 playoff performer in NBA history probably, Rose is nowhere close to that and two extra playoff wins in the much weaker conference doesn't make Rose some beast who dominates in the playoffs, while CP3 underachieves. It's an argument that was doomed from the start from you guys.

TOP 5 PLAYOFF PERFORMER EVER?

He hasn't been to a conference finals and hes a top five performer ever? Jesus Christ.

Kashmir13579
10-21-2013, 03:04 PM
CP3 fairly easily. By any logical barometer, its him. Wheres that stat that shows how far his team shoots up in close game situations, despite not having the talent to do so.

What you guys dont understand is just how pathetic his teams have done in CP3's absence throughout his career, and hes had some quality backups over the years as well. Whereas the Bulls were a team that won with defense first, relied on their system and quality depth. They truly win by attrition and teamwork. When you have a coach like Thibs and lots of defense first players, you can get away with that. When your a team utterly reliant on CP3 to create not only for himself at a high level but for the rest of the team, thats when your work load is truly 1 of a kind.

There is no greater treat than watching CP3 play in the clutch, you kind of wish he would play like that more often but he knows hes not the athlete he used to be, he only summons that kind of performance when he feels its absolutely necessary.

This post is spot on. Couldn't have said it better.

Chronz
10-21-2013, 03:04 PM
So when they don't win its his teammates fault and when he does win it was on the back of Paul ha? He plays better but the team does worse....
I dont live in a world of extreme generalities. They win/lose for a variety of reasons, I have no idea why you insist on putting words in other peoples mouth but if you have an actual argument to present, plz do so. Im giving you my honest opinion, plz tell me your a Bulls fan because I dont know where this attitude is coming from otherwise.

Clippersfan86
10-21-2013, 03:04 PM
TOP 5 PLAYOFF PERFORMER EVER?

He hasn't been to a conference finals and hes a top five performer ever? Jesus Christ.

Statistically yes. People seem to forget sometimes that it's a team game.

Guppyfighter
10-21-2013, 03:05 PM
TOP 5 PLAYOFF PERFORMER EVER?

He hasn't been to a conference finals and hes a top five performer ever? Jesus Christ.

Certainly not his fault. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xWqdhAumXI

ramsizzle
10-21-2013, 03:08 PM
Certainly not his fault. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xWqdhAumXI

that youtube video is useless in this discussion, and stats aren't everything... you don't play for the efficiency championship....

his teams have underperformed and it is a joke that you guys can not understand that. I don't care how efficient or well he plays, does it matter if they lose? Lebron did way more with way less and was absolutely annihilated by the fans, but cp3 gets every excuse on earth... its sad.

Clippersfan86
10-21-2013, 03:09 PM
21 ppg, 9.5 apg, 5 rpg, 2.2 spg... PER of 25.5, TS% of 57+, 117 career playoff offensive rating... which player is this? Only Magic Johnson has his combination of stats+efficiency in their career for the playoffs if I recall seeing on NBA TV. Last year at 27 years old Paul had his 2nd best playoff run statistically of his career and came into this year in the best physical shape of his career, so I don't expect a drop off any time soon.

Clippersfan86
10-21-2013, 03:11 PM
that youtube video is useless in this discussion, and stats aren't everything... you don't play for the efficiency championship....

his teams have underperformed and it is a joke that you guys can not understand that. I don't care how efficient or well he plays, does it matter if they lose? Lebron did way more with way less and was absolutely annihilated by the fans, but cp3 gets every excuse on earth... its sad.

WTF? Who annihilated young Lebron? He was amazing and I NEVER heard anybody bash him for failures, because everybody knew he had little, past prime talent next to him. The criticism started in the final year in Cleveland when he choked in the playoffs, then proceeded to bail on the Cavs for Miami. When he was in Cleveland the 6 years prior to that he got nothing but love and was probably the most liked player in the game. You don't remember how everybody considered him such a humble, lovable guy?

Guppyfighter
10-21-2013, 03:11 PM
that youtube video is useless in this discussion, and stats aren't everything... you don't play for the efficiency championship....

his teams have underperformed and it is a joke that you guys can not understand that. I don't care how efficient or well he plays, does it matter if they lose? Lebron did way more with way less and was absolutely annihilated by the fans, but cp3 gets every excuse on earth... its sad.

So you don't like stats and you don't like it when I put context behind them. And Lebron had the same people like me giving him the benefit of the doubt in Cleveland because the people who realize it is a team sport know it is not his fault. He didn't start getting **** from stupid people till he went to Miami and pissed everyone off.

ramsizzle
10-21-2013, 03:13 PM
21 ppg, 9.5 apg, 5 rpg, 2.2 spg... PER of 25.5, TS% of 57+, 117 career playoff offensive rating... which player is this? Only Magic Johnson has his combination of stats+efficiency in their career for the playoffs if I recall seeing on NBA TV. Last year at 27 years old Paul had his 2nd best playoff run statistically of his career and came into this year in the best physical shape of his career, so I don't expect a drop off any time soon.

I didn't ever say he was bad.... i said he gets no fault which is a joke. Hes great, i just don't think he is as good a playoff player or crunch time player as Rose. His numbers are super efficient and thats obvious. His record leaves something to be desired and he is long passed the garbage that was in New Orleons.

Goose17
10-21-2013, 03:15 PM
WTF? Who annihilated young Lebron? He was amazing and I NEVER heard anybody bash him for failures

Casual fans (which make up the vast majority of sports fans) were bashing him for not winning a ring before he got to Miami (and right up until he actually won one, then it was, "he got lucky" now it's "he won't threepeat")


KD certainly doesn't get the same criticism. Lebron is hands down the most analysed player ever, but a lot of that is because of the internet and social media etc

I think Paul has gotten some of that, more so than KD but less than Lebron. Just from my perspective.

Chronz
10-21-2013, 03:16 PM
So you don't like stats and you don't like it when I put context behind them. And Lebron had the same people like me giving him the benefit of the doubt in Cleveland because the people who realize it is a team sport know it is not his fault. He didn't start getting **** from stupid people till he went to Miami and pissed everyone off.

Yeah that was a pretty stupid argument. "Other ignorant people were hating on Bron and yet you guys dont hate on CP3?"

Ummm what if we didn't hate on either of them? What if we understand the ultimate fortune of a team doesnt rely on the play of a single player?

ramsizzle
10-21-2013, 03:16 PM
So you don't like stats and you don't like it when I put context behind them. And Lebron had the same people like me giving him the benefit of the doubt in Cleveland because the people who realize it is a team sport know it is not his fault. He didn't start getting **** from stupid people till he went to Miami and pissed everyone off.

He absolutely got annihilated, that did not start in Miami... and i didn't say i don't like stats, don't put words in my mouth. I said stats don't tell the story. They aren't everything... If Paul was as legendary a playoff performer you'd think hed get to a conference finals or two... ha?? It hasn't happened and every excuse has been made for him. At a certain point you gotta look at the player and say "Maybe he just can not do it"

He has one hell of a team this year though... so we will have to see if i am wrong.

Chronz
10-21-2013, 03:17 PM
he is long passed the garbage that was in New Orleons.
I think he had his best team in New Orleans, that is, if you actually consider the shape the team is in come playoffs.

Clippersfan86
10-21-2013, 03:17 PM
I didn't ever say he was bad.... i said he gets no fault which is a joke. Hes great, i just don't think he is as good a playoff player or crunch time player as Rose. His numbers are super efficient and thats obvious. His record leaves something to be desired and he is long passed the garbage that was in New Orleons.

I know what you're trying to say but you still haven't answered me. When has CP3 lost in the playoffs to an inferior team? Why are you bent out of shape about him being immune from hard criticism when he's never lost to an inferior TEAM in the playoffs? Above all.. this is a team sport and until CP3 loses to a worse team while underperforming individually, I don't see why we SHOULD criticize him. I criticize at times for him being too passive in my mind but even that's hard for me to justify.

ramsizzle
10-21-2013, 03:17 PM
Yeah that was a pretty stupid argument. "Other ignorant people were hating on Bron and yet you guys dont hate on CP3?"

Ummm what if we didn't hate on either of them? What if we understand the ultimate fortune of a team doesnt rely on the play of a single player?

I Didn't say that... i said lebron DID MORE WITH LESS. HE went to the finals and to conference finals, unlike Paul. But in basketball one player aids to the fortune of a team like no other sport... no matter what you say.

Chronz
10-21-2013, 03:18 PM
If Paul was as legendary a playoff performer you'd think hed get to a conference finals or two...

Why would we think that when we know its not just about the play of 1 person?

ramsizzle
10-21-2013, 03:20 PM
I know what you're trying to say but you still haven't answered me. When has CP3 lost in the playoffs to an inferior team? Why are you bent out of shape about him being immune from hard criticism when he's never lost to an inferior TEAM in the playoffs? Above all.. this is a team sport and until CP3 loses to a worse team while underperforming individually, I don't see why we SHOULD criticize him. I criticize at times for him being too passive in my mind but even that's hard for me to justify.

The Clippers were better than the Grizzlies this year... that is not an argument. Everyone thought they'd be done and ready to rebuild after trading Gay and they went and beat the clips. Now you will fire back and say that they weren't better... so we will agree to disagree.

Clippersfan86
10-21-2013, 03:21 PM
I think he had his best team in New Orleans, that is, if you actually consider the shape the team is in come playoffs.

Would have to agree. That 2007-2008 Hornets team was better coached, more experienced, healthier than the Clippers teams now. I've often talked about this before. These are the most TALENTED teams he's been on, but not the best. This year assuming decent health with the addition of Doc and CP3 being more fit physically and more aggressive (like he's shown in preseason), this should definitely surpass the Hornets team.

Doc is making such a big difference already it's ridiculous. Has DJ playing with confidence and focus, has Blake taking the jumpers but also stepping up huge on D, has CP3 attacking a lot more. Vinny could never get these guys to buy in but they are listening to everything Doc says. Something that made me so happy last game... I saw Doc let the other coaches take over the game while he sat there for 5 straight minutes mentoring Blake and coaching him 1 on 1. That right there... made me feel so secure with the team in Doc's hands going forward.

Chronz
10-21-2013, 03:21 PM
I Didn't say that... i said lebron DID MORE WITH LESS. HE went to the finals and to conference finals, unlike Paul.
You also compared it to CP3, as if we have to fit your description of the ignorance surrounding James "failures". You neglect to mention a group of us who defend both with equal conviction, understanding that it is a team game.


But in basketball one player aids to the fortune of a team like no other sport... no matter what you say.
That doesn't change the fact that you can have the best player in the planet and still be ousted in R.1 . Hell you could be the best player in the planet and miss the playoffs. Yet you think we should blindly glance as win-loss tallies as viable barometer for their impact?

LMFAO

Clippersfan86
10-21-2013, 03:22 PM
The Clippers were better than the Grizzlies this year... that is not an argument. Everyone thought they'd be done and ready to rebuild after trading Gay and they went and beat the clips. Now you will fire back and say that they weren't better... so we will agree to disagree.

It's not an argument? They both won 56 games... and the Grizzlies were more experienced as a core, better coached and healthier. So while the Clippers may be more talented, the Grizzlies were BETTER last year come playoff time obviously. A worse team doesn't backdoor sweep a team by an average of 11 ppg or w/e it was.

ramsizzle
10-21-2013, 03:22 PM
Why would we think that when we know its not just about the play of 1 person?

One person Elevates the play of others... and lets not say he was without talent. Chandler and west were a formidable front court....

ramsizzle
10-21-2013, 03:24 PM
It's not an argument? They both won 56 games... and the Grizzlies were more experienced as a core, better coached and healthier. So while the Clippers may be more talented, the Grizzlies were BETTER last year come playoff time obviously. A worse team doesn't backdoor sweep a team by an average of 11 ppg or w/e it was.

The clippers SHOULD have beat them.. but didn't. The end result should not be used in determining who was the better team before the fact.

Clippersfan86
10-21-2013, 03:24 PM
Casual fans (which make up the vast majority of sports fans) were bashing him for not winning a ring before he got to Miami (and right up until he actually won one, then it was, "he got lucky" now it's "he won't threepeat")


KD certainly doesn't get the same criticism. Lebron is hands down the most analysed player ever, but a lot of that is because of the internet and social media etc

I think Paul has gotten some of that, more so than KD but less than Lebron. Just from my perspective.

I can agree with all this. Luckily I wasn't a casual fan and was actually a huge Lebron backer and fan AGAINST those casual fans before he went to Miami, where I started to respect him less. Besides even if Lebron WAS more criticized by the average fan.. this is a guy that has a great chance to be a top 3 player all time when it's said and done, comes with the territory.

Chronz
10-21-2013, 03:24 PM
The Clippers were better than the Grizzlies this year... that is not an argument.
Why are you ignoring Blakes injuries?


Everyone thought they'd be done and ready to rebuild after trading Gay
Only the ignorant who didn't understand how much Gay was hurting them, both in the now and the future. I never once thought they were rebuilding, I thought they were retooling. Stop basing your opinion on what you think the masses are thinking and make an argument that can stand on its own merit.


and they went and beat the clips. Now you will fire back and say that they weren't better... so we will agree to disagree.

Your saying its not an argument

Kashmir13579
10-21-2013, 03:26 PM
Yeah that was a pretty stupid argument. "Other ignorant people were hating on Bron and yet you guys dont hate on CP3?"

Ummm what if we didn't hate on either of them? What if we understand the ultimate fortune of a team doesnt rely on the play of a single player?

If you go back and look at some of those rosters Lebron was on... Wow... Joe Smith was one of his top guns.

ramsizzle
10-21-2013, 03:26 PM
You also compared it to CP3, as if we have to fit your description of the ignorance surrounding James "failures". You neglect to mention a group of us who defend both with equal conviction, understanding that it is a team game.


That doesn't change the fact that you can have the best player in the planet and still be ousted in R.1 . Hell you could be the best player in the planet and miss the playoffs. Yet you think we should blindly glance as win-loss tallies as viable barometer for their impact?

LMFAO

It is a team game but the playoffs are where the superstars take charge... whats the golden rule? "when two teams are close you usually pick the team with the best player" well in cp3's case that hasn't worked out. You are also a clipper fan so do not pretend like you do not have an agenda in this....

Bias is Bias no matter how you try and hide it. Im just not hiding mine.

Clippersfan86
10-21-2013, 03:26 PM
The clippers SHOULD have beat them.. but didn't. The end result should not be used in determining who was the better team before the fact.

Maybe I'm old fashioned but I'm a believe in the fact that if a team whoops your *** in the playoffs by an average of 11 ppg 4 games in a row.. they have EARNED the right to call themselves the better team. I don't want to use the word SHOULD for equal record teams who have always played pretty brutal, competitive games. When healthy I feel we have the Grizzlies number a bit... but I would never try to say we are the clearly better team. Grizzlies fans have every right to say they had a better team last year considering the results.

ramsizzle
10-21-2013, 03:27 PM
If you go back and look at some of those rosters Lebron was on... Wow... Joe Smith was one of his top guns.

It isn't a comparison, really. Lebron won series' with trash.

Chronz
10-21-2013, 03:28 PM
One person Elevates the play of others... and lets not say he was without talent. Chandler and west were a formidable front court....
Which CP3 does, you can only elevate players so much. In the end, there is still some level of accountability with their own performances. And yes they were a formidable front court, its why they achieved some level of success. Its not as if he was ousted in R.1 with them, its not like they lost to an inferior team. When a healthy CP3 loses to an inferior team and he plays poorly in doing so, thats when you can point the finger. Until then, spewing cliches and taking blind glances at win-loss records isn't very convincing. You cant change the fact that its a team game no matter how many cliches you throw at people.

ramsizzle
10-21-2013, 03:28 PM
Maybe I'm old fashioned but I'm a believe in the fact that if a team whoops your *** in the playoffs by an average of 11 ppg 4 games in a row.. they have EARNED the right to call themselves the better team. I don't want to use the word SHOULD for equal record teams who have always played pretty brutal, competitive games. When healthy I feel we have the Grizzlies number a bit... but I would never try to say we are the clearly better team. Grizzlies fans have every right to say they had a better team last year considering the results.

now its pretty clear who was the better team, i am not arguing that. i said they should have beat them.... but going in to that series, are you tooting this same horn about the grizz? i would not think so.

Chronz
10-21-2013, 03:29 PM
It isn't a comparison, really. Lebron won series' with trash.

Well hes only lost a series despite having the superior talent, whats your point? You're talking about LeBron Friggin James here, everyone in the league today falls short in comparison. That you point to Bron in a CP3 discussion pretty much proves our point. Both were equally blameless in their "failures". You would expect better play from a better player. Which Bron is. That has never been contested, luckily we arent comparing CP3 to Bron, but to someone like Rose.

Clippersfan86
10-21-2013, 03:29 PM
If you go back and look at some of those rosters Lebron was on... Wow... Joe Smith was one of his top guns.

Donyell Marshall and Drew Gooden were the 3rd and 4th best players for Lebron back then lolz.

Kashmir13579
10-21-2013, 03:30 PM
Donyell Marshall and Drew Gooden were the 3rd and 4th best players for Lebron back then lolz.

Don't forget Wallyball!

ramsizzle
10-21-2013, 03:30 PM
Which CP3 does, you can only elevate players so much. In the end, there is still some level of accountability with their own performances. And yes they were a formidable front court, its why they achieved some level of success. Its not as if he was ousted in R.1 with them, its not like they lost to an inferior team. When a healthy CP3 loses to an inferior team and he plays poorly in doing so, thats when you can point the finger. Until then, spewing cliches and taking blind glances at win-loss records isn't very convincing. You cant change the fact that its a team game no matter how many cliches you throw at people.

Those cliche's are there for a reason.... they didn't come out of thin air. For a "top 5 playoff performer ever" a 2nd round exit is not exactly flattering, no matter how hard you try and make it.

Clippersfan86
10-21-2013, 03:31 PM
now its pretty clear who was the better team, i am not arguing that. i said they should have beat them.... but going in to that series, are you tooting this same horn about the grizz? i would not think so.

I didn't expect Billups/Butler/DJ to vanish THAT bad or Griffin to get hurt, so of course going into the series I didn't feel that way :confused:. Doesn't change the fact that GIVEN those circumstances and Vinny's ATROCIOUS coaching that series... that the Grizzlies SHOULD have and DID win the series, not the Clippers.

ramsizzle
10-21-2013, 03:31 PM
Well hes only lost a series despite having the superior talent, whats your point? You're talking about LeBron Friggin James here, everyone in the league today falls short in comparison. That you point to Bron in a CP3 discussion pretty much proves our point. Both were equally blameless in their "failures". You would expect better play from a better player. Which Bron is. That has never been contested, luckily we arent comparing CP3 to Bron, but to someone like Rose.

I brought Lebron into the discussion to show what an actual top 5 playoff performer is capable of.. that is all. I wasn't even comparing them because there is no comparison.

jp611
10-21-2013, 03:32 PM
Which doesn't change anything I've said really. Bottom line is CP3 is a top 5 playoff performer in NBA history probably, Rose is nowhere close to that and two extra playoff wins in the much weaker conference doesn't make Rose some beast who dominates in the playoffs, while CP3 underachieves. It's an argument that was doomed from the start from you guys.

Top 5 peformer in playoff history with zero rings... Makes sense

Clippersfan86
10-21-2013, 03:32 PM
How did this turn into a Lebron vs CP3 playoff deal? Lebron has a chance to go down as the GOAT when it's all said and done, likely top 3 all time. He was amazing from day one and greatly overachieved with those rosters. Just because CP3 couldn't match Lebron, doesn't mean CP3 didn't handle his business.

Kashmir13579
10-21-2013, 03:32 PM
It isn't a comparison, really. Lebron won series' with trash.

Comparison to what? CP3s NO days? I'd have to look closer at the rosters. Safe to say CP3 was playing in a far more hostile western conference. So even if he had a better roster than Lebron's, it wouldn't be cut and dried.

ramsizzle
10-21-2013, 03:33 PM
I didn't expect Billups/Butler/DJ to vanish THAT bad or Griffin to get hurt, so of course going into the series I didn't feel that way :confused:. Doesn't change the fact that GIVEN those circumstances and Vinny's ATROCIOUS coaching that series... that the Grizzlies SHOULD have and DID win the series, not the Clippers.

You just said you thought you'd win and then went to say that the Grizz should have won... Pick a stance. The grizz were better for that series but a team that was on its way to rebuilding should not have beat that Clip team..

Clippersfan86
10-21-2013, 03:34 PM
Top 5 peformer in playoff history with zero rings... Makes sense

Was Charles Barkley not also one of the greatest all time playoff performers? An older guy and long term fan.. resorting to such inexperienced points like this.. is sad to watch for me. You don't seem to know how to differentiate a team sport from an individual one.

Clippersfan86
10-21-2013, 03:36 PM
You just said you thought you'd win and then went to say that the Grizz should have won... Pick a stance. The grizz were better for that series but a team that was on its way to rebuilding should not have beat that Clip team..

Grizzlies are on their way to rebuilding lol? I'm not flip flopping. I'm saying going into the series I had a different opinion than DURING and AFTER the series, shouldn't be confusing you. After the series when I really analyzed things without as much emotion... it became clear to me WHY Memphis won and had I the knowledge of these things prior, I would have said they SHOULD have won.

Kashmir13579
10-21-2013, 03:37 PM
I mean, for the sake of conversation, if there is one player in this league that i would compare to Lebron in terms of raw, uncut production and positive impact on games, it would be CP3. He did have a year or two where statistically, there is a debate between the two. Lebron is just ****ing ironman and never gets hurt.

Clippersfan86
10-21-2013, 03:38 PM
Comparison to what? CP3s NO days? I'd have to look closer at the rosters. Safe to say CP3 was playing in a far more hostile western conference. So even if he had a better roster than Lebron's, it wouldn't be cut and dried.

Never would I compare CP3 to Lebron really... but people forget HOW weak the east was in the early-mid 00's. You had the aging Pistons, up and coming Heat.... and pretty much that was IT. Boston with Pierce, declining Sixers with Iverson... not much for Lebron to go through.

ramsizzle
10-21-2013, 03:38 PM
Comparison to what? CP3s NO days? I'd have to look closer at the rosters. Safe to say CP3 was playing in a far more hostile western conference. So even if he had a better roster than Lebron's, it wouldn't be cut and dried.

07-09 was the west and chandler and peja led teams
10 he had ariza, okafor, landry, bellineli, and jack

And we know the rosters on the clippers

Chronz
10-21-2013, 03:39 PM
It is a team game but the playoffs are where the superstars take charge... whats the golden rule? "when two teams are close you usually pick the team with the best player" well in cp3's case that hasn't worked out. You are also a clipper fan so do not pretend like you do not have an agenda in this....

Bias is Bias no matter how you try and hide it. Im just not hiding mine.
What are you basing this on tho? And what do you mean not hiding it? You never answered my question if you were a Bulls fan.

Clippersfan86
10-21-2013, 03:40 PM
What are you basing this on tho? And what do you mean not hiding it? You never answered my question if you were a Bulls fan.

Of course he is.

Chronz
10-21-2013, 03:40 PM
How did this turn into a Lebron vs CP3 playoff deal? Lebron has a chance to go down as the GOAT when it's all said and done, likely top 3 all time. He was amazing from day one and greatly overachieved with those rosters. Just because CP3 couldn't match Lebron, doesn't mean CP3 didn't handle his business.

When you are as great as CP3, the best way to cut him down to size is to compare him to the guy whos utterly superior. The guy who has lost series despite having more "talent" is somehow suppose to detract from CP3, even tho the guy we are comparing CP3 to is someone like Rose.

Chronz
10-21-2013, 03:41 PM
Of course he is.

I gathered as much but you cant tell just by looking at his avy/sig/moniker

Kashmir13579
10-21-2013, 03:42 PM
07-09 was the west and chandler and peja led teams
10 he had ariza, okafor, landry, bellineli, and jack

And we know the rosters on the clippers

i mean, how many of those players you mentioned are that noteworthy, or decisively better than what Lebron had. Certainly not Ariza, Peja, Landry, Bellineli, or Jack. Not that any of them are bad players, just average or marginal players at the time. AKA Pavlovic, Delonte, or an aging Ilgauskis.

Chronz
10-21-2013, 03:42 PM
I mean, for the sake of conversation, if there is one player in this league that i would compare to Lebron in terms of raw, uncut production and positive impact on games, it would be CP3. He did have a year or two where statistically, there is a debate between the two. Lebron is just ****ing ironman and never gets hurt.
Yup, I really dont understand why Bron was brought up in the first place tho.

ramsizzle
10-21-2013, 03:42 PM
What are you basing this on tho? And what do you mean not hiding it? You never answered my question if you were a Bulls fan.

Im a Bulls fan yes... i Pretty much have made it clear this whole time with this debate haha

ramsizzle
10-21-2013, 03:44 PM
i mean, how many of those players you mentioned are that noteworthy, or decisively better than what Lebron had. Certainly not Ariza, Peja, Landry, Bellineli, or Jack. Not that any of them are bad players, just average or marginal players at the time. AKA Pavlovic, Delonte, or an aging Ilgauskis.

The players lebron had were almost all below average and on their way out of the league... Many of the players cp3 played with have gone one to other teams and sustained a decent amount of success (jack, Belli, and Landry, Tyson) Though the lebron comment was to show something else... Lebron was not part of the discussion

Clippersfan86
10-21-2013, 03:45 PM
When you are as great as CP3, the best way to cut him down to size is to compare him to the guy whos utterly superior. The guy who has lost series despite having more "talent" is somehow suppose to detract from CP3, even tho the guy we are comparing CP3 to is someone like Rose.

I guess so lol

Chronz
10-21-2013, 03:48 PM
i mean, how many of those players you mentioned are that noteworthy, or decisively better than what Lebron had. Certainly not Ariza, Peja, Landry, Bellineli, or Jack. Not that any of them are bad players, just average or marginal players at the time. AKA Pavlovic, Delonte, or an aging Ilgauskis.

Its nonsensical to mention Okafor. He had him for 1 series, he could have had him for 2 series but one of those years came in which CP3 was unable to suit up for half the season, and unlike Rose, CP3 did not have the good fortune of a team that could actually be competitive in his absence, thus allowing him the possibility of playing in the playoffs, he bowed out tho, good for him and the team but it doesn't change the reality of their situations.

The series he DID have Okafor, he lost David West and the team had to play Aaron Gray (who also succumbed to injury IIRC). Whats the point of mentioning Okafor if you dont mention that fact that the team he went up against was FAR superior in terms of talent. Is having Okafor suppose to make up for Gasol/Bynum?

Chronz
10-21-2013, 03:48 PM
Im a Bulls fan yes... i Pretty much have made it clear this whole time with this debate haha
I jumped into the convo late. Get a sig or something

Chronz
10-21-2013, 03:57 PM
Those cliche's are there for a reason.... they didn't come out of thin air. For a "top 5 playoff performer ever" a 2nd round exit is not exactly flattering, no matter how hard you try and make it.
They are there to prevent critical thinking. Notice how you bring up hyperbole given by another member (Top-5 accusation) and using it as an argument against me, as if Im the one saying it.

Newflash, Im NOT trying hard because I've NEVER said he was a Top-5 performer. Use the actual arguments presented, stop pointing to what OTHERS have said as if it somehow pertains to OUR discussion. The truth remains, this is a team game, the fact that you can have the best player in the league and still miss the playoffs prove your cliches dont stand up to even the slightest amount of attention to detail. Health and competition matter, CP3 has never lost a series to an inferior team. We can point to alot of statistics or trends that back these assertions. We dont have to agree, but can we at least debate properly?

Clippersfan86
10-21-2013, 03:58 PM
I can't remember the last time I've used hyperbole on PSD. Been at least a year.

ramsizzle
10-21-2013, 04:00 PM
Its nonsensical to mention Okafor. He had him for 1 series, he could have had him for 2 series but one of those years came in which CP3 was unable to suit up for half the season, and unlike Rose, CP3 did not have the good fortune of a team that could actually be competitive in his absence, thus allowing him the possibility of playing in the playoffs, he bowed out tho, good for him and the team but it doesn't change the reality of their situations.


The series he DID have Okafor, he lost David West and the team had to play Aaron Gray (who also succumbed to injury IIRC). Whats the point of mentioning Okafor if you dont mention that fact that the team he went up against was FAR superior in terms of talent. Is having Okafor suppose to make up for Gasol/Bynum?

Is a turf toe'd Boozer along with dengs hand or a Plantar Fascia keeping Noah hampered going to stop people from saying the loss to Miami was on him? NO. Rose's one bad playoff series in his life is what haunts him and not one thing can be said to aim it away from him... while cp3 benefits from every excuse in the book.

ramsizzle
10-21-2013, 04:01 PM
They are there to prevent critical thinking. Notice how you bring up hyperbole given by another member (Top-5 accusation) and using it as an argument against me, as if Im the one saying it.

Newflash, Im NOT trying hard because I've NEVER said he was a Top-5 performer. Use the actual arguments presented, stop pointing to what OTHERS have said as if it somehow pertains to OUR discussion. The truth remains, this is a team game, the fact that you can have the best player in the league and still miss the playoffs prove your cliches dont stand up to even the slightest amount of attention to detail. Health and competition matter, CP3 has never lost a series to an inferior team. We can point to alot of statistics or trends that back these assertions. We dont have to agree, but can we at least debate properly?

When was the last time a team with the best player in the world missed the playoffs...? Hell even a top 3 or 4 player. It doesn't happen.

Rose has never lost a series to an inferior team as well.... though there can be an argument for paul seeing how they were a 22-1 odds to win it all and lost to a memphis team that was 35-1. So theres your never lost a series to an inferior team argument.

king4day
10-21-2013, 04:05 PM
I added a poll. I say CP3 with the final possession because I think he can make the right play and score if needed. If I had to pick a player to bring me back from 7 down with 2 min left, I'd take Rose.

Kashmir13579
10-21-2013, 04:07 PM
Yup, I really dont understand why Bron was brought up in the first place tho.

Like you said, its the easiest way to cut inferior players (everyone lol) down to size.

Chronz
10-21-2013, 04:09 PM
now its pretty clear who was the better team, i am not arguing that. i said they should have beat them.... but going in to that series, are you tooting this same horn about the grizz? i would not think so.

Hes an extreme Clippers fan, its pretty hard to have faith in your time whilst also betting against them, Im as big of a fanatic but even I tend to avoid bets that revolve around my own team. That said, there was plenty of evidence that hinted at their superiority. They revolve around more intricate analysis that the cliches you like to rely on but they are more important. For 1, the play of the Grizzlies improved almost instantaneously when they jettisoned the cancer that was Gay, improved on BOTH ends, by going back to the bully ball that saw them have the most success before. Secondly, much of our success was based on the DOMINANT play of our bench. Which you should know is less important when teams shorten their rotations. Thirdly there is a matter of health, Blake closed the season dealing with a nagging back issue and wound up suffering a significant injury during the series, he was CLEARLY not himself. Hes our 2nd best player, thats not something you can easily disregard.

There are other reasons I want to mention but I feel you will casually dismiss them, such as the reintegration of Billups in hopes that he would perform in the playoffs (he did not), the lack of playoff readiness from DeAndre Jordan and how dramatically different he was as a player to start the year vs finishing it but thats less of an issue considering DJ has never proven to be ready for playoff competition.

ramsizzle
10-21-2013, 04:10 PM
Like you said, its the easiest way to cut inferior players (everyone lol) down to size.

I used bron to cut down his top 5 ever comment... that is all. there was no comparison.

Riodagoat
10-21-2013, 04:12 PM
CP no doubt about it

ramsizzle
10-21-2013, 04:13 PM
Hes an extreme Clippers fan, its pretty hard to have faith in your time whilst also betting against them, Im as big of a fanatic but even I tend to avoid bets that revolve around my own team. That said, there was plenty of evidence that hinted at their superiority. They revolve around more intricate analysis that the cliches you like to rely on but they are more important. For 1, the play of the Grizzlies improved almost instantaneously when they jettisoned the cancer that was Gay, improved on BOTH ends, by going back to the bully ball that saw them have the most success before. Secondly, much of our success was based on the DOMINANT play of our bench. Which you should know is less important when teams shorten their rotations. Thirdly there is a matter of health, Blake closed the season dealing with a nagging back issue and wound up suffering a significant injury during the series, he was CLEARLY not himself. Hes our 2nd best player, thats not something you can easily disregard.

There are other reasons I want to mention but I feel you will casually dismiss them, such as the reintegration of Billups in hopes that he would perform in the playoffs (he did not), the lack of playoff readiness from DeAndre Jordan and how dramatically different he was as a player to start the year vs finishing it but thats less of an issue considering DJ has never proven to be ready for playoff competition.

I do agree with most of your statements... But the clips were favored in the series and it is somewhat on paul to make sure these players are ready and are integrated well. Many say he was faux coach, do they not? Is it not on the pg and superstar talent to help raise the level of play of others? (The clippers being favored was from Bovada, Though i know a sports book might be looked down upon on deciding favorites)

Kashmir13579
10-21-2013, 04:14 PM
I used bron to cut down his top 5 ever comment... that is all. there was no comparison.

I joined the conversation late. My bad.

Kashmir13579
10-21-2013, 04:15 PM
I do agree with most of your statements... But the clips were favored in the series and it is somewhat on paul to make sure these players are ready and are integrated well. Many say he was faux coach, do they not? Is it not on the pg and superstar talent to help raise the level of play of others? (The clippers being favored was from Bovada, Though i know a sports book might be looked down upon on deciding favorites)
This is the very casual dismissal he anticipated.

Clippersfan86
10-21-2013, 04:16 PM
I joined the conversation late. My bad.

All I said was statistically a top 5 playoff performer ever which isn't wrong that I'm aware of. His career playoff numbers are INCREDIBLE. Although he won't tell you the only reason I brought that up was because Bulls fans were passing Rose off as a clearly better playoff performer and CP3 as a playoff fail it seemed.

Chronz
10-21-2013, 04:17 PM
I added a poll. I say CP3 with the final possession because I think he can make the right play and score if needed. If I had to pick a player to bring me back from 7 down with 2 min left, I'd take Rose.
I've heard a similar argument before. That when a team is down, you want a more volatile player, someone who can explode in short bursts because if he stays consistent, your team is likely losing anyways, but theres a greater chance for explosion if you have the more natural scorer. However if you want someone to guide your team to a close victory, you want the guy who can consistently keep the team at a stable level of play.

Im not a fan of generalities but I guess I can see that point. How do you find out the truth tho? Not every clutch situation is comparable but it would be better to look at the facts of how they perform in such situations. We can also isolate individual instances, but thats also unfair.

Like when Miami closed Chicago out, Rose had a lead to work with, I believe they were up fairly big with not much time remaining , then Wade and Bron shot lights out and shut down Rose on the other end. CP3 however led his crippled team to one of the greatest playoff miracle comebacks in NBA history. Thank you Rudy Gay, for your inept transition defense and utterly predictable isolation based game.



Now Im not trying to base my argument around solely these instances, but its an example of something I would look at to influence my decision. What are you looking at? Do you account for the difference in defensive support? Like do you get to take Chicago's stifling defense with you when you choose Rose?

Chronz
10-21-2013, 04:18 PM
All I said was statistically a top 5 playoff performer ever which isn't wrong that I'm aware of. His career playoff numbers are INCREDIBLE. Although he won't tell you the only reason I brought that up was because Bulls fans were passing Rose off as a clearly better playoff performer and CP3 as a playoff fail it seemed.

Dont feel like searching through a thread this late but how exactly is Rose a better playoff performer? Do you get more credit for feasting on leastern teams and still struggling with your own individual production? Relatively speaking of course.

ramsizzle
10-21-2013, 04:19 PM
This is the very casual dismissal he anticipated.

Everyone "casually" dismisses injuries and other factors when discussing Rose in the playoffs. I did not even dismiss it... I just made a statement that almost any basketball fan would agree is correct when discussing superstars. Does CP3 elevate his level of play in the playoffs? yeah, sometimes.... Does he elevate his teams level of play? His record would suggest not. Maybe that is on the Coach, maybe its on Paul. I said in an earlier post he has the team and coach now... we can see at the end of this season.

Clippersfan86
10-21-2013, 04:21 PM
Dont feel like searching through a thread this late but how exactly is Rose a better playoff performer? Do you get more credit for feasting on leastern teams and still struggling with your own individual production? Relatively speaking of course.

I guess that's what some of them feel. He brought up an 8 point CP3 game this year.. and I mentioned how Rose would never have an 8 point game because he's shooting 23 shots per game. It's a weird way to judge considering they are so different as PG's. No Bulls fan said CP3 was bad in the playoffs, but rather that Rose stepped up more, which is why I posted that.

ramsizzle
10-21-2013, 04:23 PM
Dont feel like searching through a thread this late but how exactly is Rose a better playoff performer? Do you get more credit for feasting on leastern teams and still struggling with your own individual production? Relatively speaking of course.

Rose has played well and closed out games in the playoffs.... The series he hasnt were miami in 2010-11, Boston in a 7 game series where he was amazing as a rookie, Cleveland in 09-10 when they were clearly the best team in the nba... How exactly is Rose not equal to him when his loses are to Finals level talents?

ramsizzle
10-21-2013, 04:24 PM
I guess that's what some of them feel. He brought up an 8 point CP3 game this year.. and I mentioned how Rose would never have an 8 point game because he's shooting 23 shots per game. It's a weird way to judge considering they are so different as PG's. No Bulls fan said CP3 was bad in the playoffs, but rather that Rose stepped up more, which is why I posted that.

I will NEVER say CP3 is bad or anything of that sort in the playoffs... most of the time he is absolutely sensational. I feel he is a bit too passive at times and id rather have the aggressive attacking rose handle the point if it was 2 minutes left. T

Clippersfan86
10-21-2013, 04:25 PM
Rose has played well and closed out games in the playoffs.... The series he hasnt were miami in 2010-11, Boston in a 7 game series where he was amazing as a rookie, Cleveland in 09-10 when they were clearly the best team in the nba... How exactly is Rose not equal to him when his loses are to Finals level talents?

CP3's losses have pretty much exclusively come from WCF teams or finals teams as well, not sure what this means. It still doesn't mean the competition in the east was equal because it clearly wasn't. When did CP3 ever get to beat a 37 win team in the playoffs like the Bulls did in 2011?

Clippersfan86
10-21-2013, 04:26 PM
I will NEVER say CP3 is bad or anything of that sort in the playoffs... most of the time he is absolutely sensational. I feel he is a bit too passive at times and id rather have the aggressive attacking rose handle the point if it was 2 minutes left. T

I said that above. Not a single Bulls fan said CP3 wasn't a good playoff performer. What I had an issue with is the implication that Rose is an equal or better one, which you reiterated you felt above.

ramsizzle
10-21-2013, 04:29 PM
.

ramsizzle
10-21-2013, 04:31 PM
CP3's losses have pretty much exclusively come from WCF teams or finals teams as well, not sure what this means. It still doesn't mean the competition in the east was equal because it clearly wasn't. When did CP3 ever get to beat a 37 win team in the playoffs like the Bulls did in 2011?

Let it be a 45 win team, does it matter? they were clearly 1a to Miami that year... they won the indy series in 5, the atlanta series in 6 and won every game by a pretty large margin. Those first and second rounds weren't exactly close and he was only in his 3rd year in the nba.

Chronz
10-21-2013, 04:33 PM
I do agree with most of your statements... But the clips were favored in the series and it is somewhat on paul to make sure these players are ready and are integrated well.
He cant cure Blakes ailing back or ankle injury, he cant force Chaunceys rehab to progress more rapidly, and he definitely cant make DJ turn into a consistent performer. He also doesn't get to control the rotations other teams use that suppress the advantage a strong bench has.


Many say he was faux coach, do they not? Is it not on the pg and superstar talent to help raise the level of play of others? (The clippers being favored was from Bovada, Though i know a sports book might be looked down upon on deciding favorites)
You're only hitting home the point we've been saying, so much more is expected of CP3 than of Rose because of the lack of coaching outside his own. CP3 is not a faux coach, hes an extension of the coach and he makes them look better than they truly are as a result, it doesn't mean he gets to decide what rotations we use and what kind of defensive set up we have. I mean he does have some pull, like when he practically begged Vinny to give him a chance to come back from that large deficit the year prior. Imagine that, he had to beg his coach for a chance to win a game they eventually win. As a Bulls fan you should know how often Vinny gets in his own way.


When was the last time a team with the best player in the world missed the playoffs...? Hell even a top 3 or 4 player. It doesn't happen.
So Kareem never existed? Wilt? Kobe (if you consider him to ever be the best). It can happen depending on how ****** your teammates are, thats a fact. That it rarely happens means its hard to **** up that badly when you got the best player but it doesn't mean its impossible. Nor does it gaurantee you move on beyond R1 as many greats have shown.


Rose has never lost a series to an inferior team as well.... though there can be an argument for paul seeing how they were a 22-1 odds to win it all and lost to a memphis team that was 35-1. So theres your never lost a series to an inferior team argument.
Those odds fail to factor in the depth of Blake's injuries and the mundane importance of bench play come post season. The Grizz were favored the year before IIRC (if not they should have been given how depleted we were) and yet they lost to a broken down Clips team, so unlike Rose, CP3 has actually won a series against a superior team.


Is a turf toe'd Boozer along with dengs hand or a Plantar Fascia keeping Noah hampered going to stop people from saying the loss to Miami was on him? NO. Rose's one bad playoff series in his life is what haunts him and not one thing can be said to aim it away from him... while cp3 benefits from every excuse in the book.
The loss on Miami was on him? By what measure should the Bulls have been favored to defeat Miami? The only thing I hold against Rose is his own performance, which was great but not exactly MVP caliber. It happens. It doesn't define his career given how short its been. THat said, I would hold

Clippersfan86
10-21-2013, 04:37 PM
Lol.... Bulls fans are acting like Rose is some huge target of criticism. The only gripe I hear about Rose is the MVP he got over Lebron and the 2011 Heat series where he allowed a 6'8 260 pound player to shut him down. I'm sorry but for the supposedly fastest and most athletic player in the NBA who was a 25 ppg scorer to be obliterated and held to like 30 percent that effortlessly by a SF...is pretty sad.

He just didn't look like quite the world class, MVP player he was hyped to be by Bulls fans. Another thing to note is... I played a lot of pickup ball and spent a ton of time on forums at that time. I remember all the sh** Bulls fans and analysts were talking about how if one team was going to beat the Heat it was them etc. Bulls fans were cocky. So don't be surprised when people criticize the outcome of that series.

Chronz
10-21-2013, 04:38 PM
Everyone "casually" dismisses injuries and other factors when discussing Rose in the playoffs. I did not even dismiss it... I just made a statement that almost any basketball fan would agree is correct when discussing superstars. Does CP3 elevate his level of play in the playoffs? yeah, sometimes.... Does he elevate his teams level of play? His record would suggest not. Maybe that is on the Coach, maybe its on Paul. I said in an earlier post he has the team and coach now... we can see at the end of this season.
If you look solely at records, whos to stop you from saying the only guy who elevates his team is the best player on the team that ultimately wins a chip. Thats nonsense.

When Kobe+Phil pushed the Suns to 7 games with an inferior cast around them, thats an example of an elevated team, performing beyond their normal level. They didn't need to win the series for me to KNOW that. Thats exactly what CP3 did when he pushed that same player-coach combo to 6 games despite FAR less talent alongside him. Its what Tmac has done vs the Pistons/Mavs. I dont need to see victory to see a team perform well above their level. Its not always the result of 1 player doing either, sometimes players choke no matter how easy you make the game for them.

jp611
10-21-2013, 04:40 PM
I love CP3, don't get me wrong

Just find it hilarious how he does no wrong but Rose is called a ball hog, bad team player and other crazy things in this forum

Clippersfan86
10-21-2013, 04:42 PM
I love CP3, don't get me wrong

Just find it hilarious how he does no wrong but Rose is called a ball hog, bad team player and other crazy things in this forum

By who? Heat fans? Bulls and Heat fans here have *****fits nonstop, doesn't mean everybody else feels that way.

Chronz
10-21-2013, 04:43 PM
Lol.... Bulls fans are acting like Rose is some huge target of criticism. The only gripe I hear about Rose is the MVP he got over Lebron and the 2011 Heat series where he allowed a 6'8 260 pound player to shut him down. I'm sorry but for the supposedly fastest and most athletic player in the NBA who was a 25 ppg scorer to be obliterated and held to like 30 percent that effortlessly by a SF...is pretty sad.

Dude, teams do the same **** to CP3 too. The Grizzlies just put TA and Pondexter on him while having the leagues DPOY backing them up. Without Blake up to speed, some situations are too tough to endure. CP3 played brilliantly given the situation and we expect it of him given that hes the superior player to begin with, but every player can struggle if enough things are going wrong. Bron himself has had some games where he gets locked down. It wasn't just Bron either, they were shading off their inept SG's as well. It was basically a tag team of Bron+Wade that locked him up. Thats alot to overcome and he still had himself a fine series individually. I dont want to just look at what happened in the 4th quarter, tho I remember how awful he shot when it came time to close, its not more important than looking at the total game.

jp611
10-21-2013, 04:44 PM
By who? Heat fans? Bulls and Heat fans here have *****fits nonstop, doesn't mean everybody else feels that way.

This forum is full of children, just read some of the posts in the beginning of this thread

One dude said he's a disgrace to the game for drawing fouls

***** wild

jp611
10-21-2013, 04:46 PM
Btw, I agree with you and Chronz for the most part

I'd take Paul over Rose in general, but for the bulls team I take Rose, because we need an aggressive scorer like him on our team

Clippersfan86
10-21-2013, 04:46 PM
Dude, teams do the same **** to CP3 too. The Grizzlies just put TA and Pondexter on him while having the leagues DPOY backing them up. Without Blake up to speed, some situations are too tough to endure. CP3 played brilliantly given the situation and we expect it of him given that hes the superior player to begin with, but every player can struggle if enough things are going wrong. Bron himself has had some games where he gets locked down. It wasn't just Bron either, they were shading off their inept SG's as well. It was basically a tag team of Bron+Wade that locked him up. Thats alot to overcome and he still had himself a fine series individually. I dont want to just look at what happened in the 4th quarter, tho I remember how awful he shot when it came time to close, its not more important than looking at the total game.

That is true that it's happened to CP3 with Sefalosha, Pondexter etc. Personally though I think it's just more surprising with Rose because of his strength, speed and athleticism. CP3 doesn't have the speed/athleticism anymore to just blow by guys.

I agree though a lot of the fault of these situations probably has to do with what's around these players. Both Rose and CP3 it's excusable.

ramsizzle
10-21-2013, 04:48 PM
He cant cure Blakes ailing back or ankle injury, he cant force Chaunceys rehab to progress more rapidly, and he definitely cant make DJ turn into a consistent performer. He also doesn't get to control the rotations other teams use that suppress the advantage a strong bench has.

Injuries happen I'm not faulting cp3 with that... but as the pg and team leader it absolutely is on him to help turn DJ into a consistent performer, as he did with Tyson.



You're only hitting home the point we've been saying, so much more is expected of CP3 than of Rose because of the lack of coaching outside his own. CP3 is not a faux coach, hes an extension of the coach and he makes them look better than they truly are as a result, it doesn't mean he gets to decide what rotations we use and what kind of defensive set up we have. I mean he does have some pull, like when he practically begged Vinny to give him a chance to come back from that large deficit the year prior. Imagine that, he had to beg his coach for a chance to win a game they eventually win. As a Bulls fan you should know how often Vinny gets in his own way.

Rose does much of the same... we saw what happened against the 76'ers after he went down. Though it is terrible that they have given Paul Vinny for this long. He deserves better.


So Kareem never existed? Wilt? Kobe (if you consider him to ever be the best). It can happen depending on how ****** your teammates are, thats a fact. That it rarely happens means its hard to **** up that badly when you got the best player but it doesn't mean its impossible. Nor does it gaurantee you move on beyond R1 as many greats have shown.


You pulled 2 examples from DECADES ago... its a different game. Though Kobe being the example had a coach with health problems retire and one who was not fit to even be coaching coach the rest of the season out. crazy circumstances indeed for a player to not make the playoffs.


Those odds fail to factor in the depth of Blake's injuries and the mundane importance of bench play come post season. The Grizz were favored the year before IIRC (if not they should have been given how depleted we were) and yet they lost to a broken down Clips team, so unlike Rose, CP3 has actually won a series against a superior team.

This post is simply not fair... Rose has been favored in most series since 09'. Fyi....12/1 was the fourth highest odds of winning the title in 2012 by the clippers, behind only miami, chicago, and okc. (again from bovada) so no, the Grizz were not favored.


The loss on Miami was on him? By what measure should the Bulls have been favored to defeat Miami? The only thing I hold against Rose is his own performance, which was great but not exactly MVP caliber. It happens. It doesn't define his career given how short its been. THat said, I would hold

I don't hold it against Rose... Many a fan on this site does tho...

Chronz
10-21-2013, 04:48 PM
I love CP3, don't get me wrong

Just find it hilarious how he does no wrong but Rose is called a ball hog, bad team player and other crazy things in this forum
Maybe but thats just a social climate type thing and should never be brought up in a debate with a single person. I dont care what others have said, just what you and I are saying.

That said, Ill give my opinion on why this might be the case. Personality and hype.

Fair or not, many people see Rose's MVP as less of a validation of his play than the devaluing of other players. Whereas CP3 is seen by some as having been robbed of an MVP by Kobe.

Rose essentially ruled himself out of playing despite being medically cleared, I know the Bulls FO may not have wanted him to play but they didn't want MJ playing either back in the day, in the end, once a player is cleared medically, they have the final say. Whereas CP3 endured a knee injury and opted to take the route that would get him back on the court sooner rather than worry about the potential long term effects.


Im prolly neglecting some facts tho, I dont really care for measuring culture climate.

Clippersfan86
10-21-2013, 04:49 PM
When healthy Rose is the 2nd best PG in the game, or at worst 3rd depending on where you rank Parker and Westbrook. He's only 25 and still has amazing upside and an outstanding work ethic to match. Anybody who thinks he's tapped out or done is just dumb or angry. Unlike guys like say Harden, Wade etc who use cheap tricks to draw fouls IMO and get soft fouls... Rose gets hammered to get fouls, so I'd say he's earning every single free throw he gets pretty much.

jp611
10-21-2013, 04:51 PM
Maybe but thats just a social climate type thing and should never be brought up in a debate with a single person. I dont care what others have said, just what you and I are saying.

That said, Ill give my opinion on why this might be the case. Personality and hype.

Fair or not, many people see Rose's MVP as less of a validation of his play than the devaluing of other players. Whereas CP3 is seen by some as having been robbed of an MVP by Kobe.

Rose essentially ruled himself out of playing despite being medically cleared, I know the Bulls FO may not have wanted him to play but they didn't want MJ playing either back in the day, in the end, once a player is cleared medically, they have the final say. Whereas CP3 endured a knee injury and opted to take the route that would get him back on the court sooner rather than worry about the potential long term effects.


Im prolly neglecting some facts tho, I dont really care for measuring culture climate.

I was never in a debate with you about this topic though

Cash
10-21-2013, 05:03 PM
Rose simply because he's the better offensive weapon. When people debate Rose vs Paul, nobody really questions that Rose is the superior scorer, he is. Paul is the complete package and excels in areas that Rose doesn't. I'll take Paul to SET UP the play that wins the game, but I want Rose actually taking the shot.

Chronz
10-21-2013, 05:05 PM
Injuries happen I'm not faulting cp3 with that... but as the pg and team leader it absolutely is on him to help turn DJ into a consistent performer, as he did with Tyson.

But you are faulting him if you expect him to overcome the loss/decline of his primary sidekick. CP3's 2nd best player in the series vs the Grizz was his backup ffs. The reality is that CP3 led our offense to more success against a defensive powerhouse than Kevin Durant did a round later, and KD is a superior player so that tells me just how brilliant CP3 was. The reason we lost to Memphis had NOTHING to do with CP3, unless you're foolish enough to believe he should have anchored our defense in the paint (the true reason we lost).


You pulled 2 examples from DECADES ago... its a different game.
Those were 2 of the most dominant players to ever lace them up. The game isn't so different that we disregard Kareem, wtf, should we start disregarding Magic and Larry as well? Kareems career spans 2 decades, basically 3 generations of ball players. If his career is of no importance to you then I do not wish to continue this discussion. The game isn't that different, its always been a game where 1 player has a huge impact on the game, it just so happens the absence of a player has an equally negative impact.

For CP3, that absence is the health of Blake. Blake has never had a healthy post season run, and maybe he never will, but until I see him fail with his partner up to speed, I wont discredit him.



Though Kobe being the example had a coach with health problems retire and one who was not fit to even be coaching coach the rest of the season out. crazy circumstances indeed for a player to not make the playoffs.
Ill gladly take half a season from Rudy T over a full season of Vinny. And that excuse doesn't fly with me, if you were paying attention to the Lakers schedule and margin of victory, you would have recognized the harbingers of their downfall. They were never going to make the playoffs. Kobe closed the year something like 3-18. Hakeem has missed the playoffs too, or are the 90's too many DECADES for you too?

I would give you a more recent list if you dont appreciate NBA history, but I would need to know where you think CP3 ranks in the totem pole over the years and who exactly you would have considered among the best players in the league. Im confident you will find many examples.

Like KG at one point was in the conversation as the best player in the league, he was certainly no worse than 3rd/4th, yet in the prime of his career he missed the playoffs consecutively. I consider prime KG to be a superior player to CP3, and yet KG missed the playoffs, so why would I expect CP3 to get any further just on that alone?




I don't hold it against Rose... Many a fan on this site does tho...
But you aren't debating with them, try to picture us alone in a room, a dimly lit room with both of us wet from head to toe, then you get the idea of the intimacy we should have. Dont bring up other people baby, its just you and me.

Chronz
10-21-2013, 05:06 PM
I was never in a debate with you about this topic though
I know, its just something that has come up in this debate.

ManningToTyree
10-21-2013, 05:47 PM
CP3. He is probably the most likely person to make the "right play" (shot or pass) in the NBA. It's not a knock on Rose at all but CP3 just doesn't make mistakes in crunch time. Obviously any team would be lucky to have either.

Furymaker
10-21-2013, 06:11 PM
this is still going on ? My god why do you guys try so hard to prove the other guy wrong? You're no Dr.House , you're not going to make that happen ffs . A lot of BS and off topic **** has been said here , from Rose vs Paul in clutch situations this became Paul vs LeBron and Grizzlies vs Clippers while keeping tab on Cavs from Bron days .
What Lebron did with Cavs is really something that's not going to happen very often , there's a reason why he has a chance of being the GOAT , CP3 is not supposed to be in same conversation with LeBron .
Also @Clippersfan86 , you're trying to defend CP3 and LAC losing to Grizzlies in shameful performance from Clipps with injury thing , you just can't do that while attacking Rose's playoffs performances . Rose was injured , exhausted for majority of playoff games , he had no #2 option , Boozer was coming from an injury and his performance was just sad throughout playoffs , Noah ankle injuries , Deng had wrist thing going on , and you still have guts to bash him for his performances in that playoff series?
From #4 / #5 EC seed he led Bulls team to #1 seed overall , Noah , Boozer and Deng missed so many games , and whole team was been suffering from injuries in playoffs , they've lost Asik when they needed him the most .
Just get out of this discussion as Bulls and Clipps performances in playoffs are not comparable , Rose was more impressive than CP3 , MVP proves that and stats I provided proves that too ( talking about Rose's MVP year ).

@Chronz , I don't know what are you actually trying to do here , you should know what Rose did his MVP year , and he surely was more impressive year after that if not for injuries through the season and that ACL , you probably know that he and Bulls would actually have much higher chances of beating the Heat that year.
Also comparison CP3 vs Rose is stupid , Rose when healthy is better player , he proved it his last 2 seasons , also about his clutch performances , stats backs him up too . If you forgot take a look at his performance against Paul and LAC , Bucks , etc. Rose when healthy is better player , more clutch , ffs even more efficient in these situations ( mvp year ) .


It's plain stupid to continue with this , people forgot how he actually played and what he did at the end of the games , they're hating on him for sitting past season .

Clippersfan86
10-21-2013, 06:12 PM
Not a single person in here is bashing Rose or saying anything bad about him besides the occasional Heat fan doing a quick drive by. Can you please try to break up your paragraphs?

Chronz
10-21-2013, 06:13 PM
If you think the Clips should have beaten the Grizz you simply have to ask yourself, do you feel the Clippers could win 56 games without Blake(he was essentially non-existent for much of the series due to his health)? You include ascension of the Grizz after the trade, the diminished importance of bench play come playoffs (a Clippers strength) and the fact that DJ in the regular season is FAR different than DJ in the postseason and you should realize how herculean CP3 would have to be to beat the Grizz. Its just not fair to ask more from CP3 than we would of a superior player like Durant, who also lost to that team in less impressive fashion.

5ass
10-21-2013, 06:35 PM
When healthy Rose is the 2nd best PG in the game, or at worst 3rd depending on where you rank Parker and Westbrook. He's only 25 and still has amazing upside and an outstanding work ethic to match. Anybody who thinks he's tapped out or done is just dumb or angry. Unlike guys like say Harden, Wade etc who use cheap tricks to draw fouls IMO and get soft fouls... Rose gets hammered to get fouls, so I'd say he's earning every single free throw he gets pretty much.
Thats because rose avoids contact, westbrook seeks it.

Guppyfighter
10-21-2013, 06:39 PM
The Clippers were better than the Grizzlies this year... that is not an argument. Everyone thought they'd be done and ready to rebuild after trading Gay and they went and beat the clips. Now you will fire back and say that they weren't better... so we will agree to disagree.

The only reason the Clippers were more productive on the court was because of CP3. CP3 didn't actually have the better team.

And the Grizzlies were much better in the second half without Gay. If you extrapolate their stats without Gay, they were a top three team.

Furymaker
10-21-2013, 06:46 PM
you're saying that now , but before series started you probably said otherwise just like everyone else , everyone thought that CP3 led team with more talent than ever before would get past them , and yet again , we all know what happened. Obviously everyone will say now Grizzlies had more balanced team , better coached with better chemistry , etc. , but nothing like that was heard before the series , CP3 almighty can't fail with this much talent was attitude of most of the fans around here . ( ooh yeah , this is not me hating on CP3 as he did everything you could ask him for ), Grizzlies were just superior , and average double-digits blowouts proves it .

Guppyfighter
10-21-2013, 06:54 PM
you're saying that now , but before series started you probably said otherwise just like everyone else , everyone thought that CP3 led team with more talent than ever before would get past them , and yet again , we all know what happened. Obviously everyone will say now Grizzlies had more balanced team , better coached with better chemistry , etc. , but nothing like that was heard before the series , CP3 almighty can't fail with this much talent was attitude of most of the fans around here . ( ooh yeah , this is not me hating on CP3 as he did everything you could ask him for ), Grizzlies were just superior , and average double-digits blowouts proves it .

Too bad none of that talent showed up. Blake Griffin was shut down by Zbo and a bad ankle. Deandre Jordan was shut down by Gasol. Jamal Crawford forgot how to shoot a basketball. It was Chris Paul and the guys who forgot to play basketball.

Chris Paul was amazing that series, which makes it sadder no one else on the Clippers side decided to show up after game two.


"CP3 almighty can't fail with this much talent was attitude of most of the fans around here ."

Who gives a **** what the narratives were? At all?

Chronz
10-21-2013, 07:22 PM
this is still going on ? My god why do you guys try so hard to prove the other guy wrong? You're no Dr.House , you're not going to make that happen ffs . A lot of BS and off topic **** has been said here , from Rose vs Paul in clutch situations this became Paul vs LeBron and Grizzlies vs Clippers while keeping tab on Cavs from Bron days .
What Lebron did with Cavs is really something that's not going to happen very often , there's a reason why he has a chance of being the GOAT , CP3 is not supposed to be in same conversation with LeBron .
Also @Clippersfan86 , you're trying to defend CP3 and LAC losing to Grizzlies in shameful performance from Clipps with injury thing , you just can't do that while attacking Rose's playoffs performances . Rose was injured , exhausted for majority of playoff games , he had no #2 option , Boozer was coming from an injury and his performance was just sad throughout playoffs , Noah ankle injuries , Deng had wrist thing going on , and you still have guts to bash him for his performances in that playoff series?
From #4 / #5 EC seed he led Bulls team to #1 seed overall , Noah , Boozer and Deng missed so many games , and whole team was been suffering from injuries in playoffs , they've lost Asik when they needed him the most .
Just get out of this discussion as Bulls and Clipps performances in playoffs are not comparable , Rose was more impressive than CP3 , MVP proves that and stats I provided proves that too ( talking about Rose's MVP year ).
Im pretty sure Bron was brought up by a Rose supporter. I dont care if you change your mind or not, I enjoy the art of debating for several reasons, suffice it to say, telling us alot of BS has happened and calling arguments stupid isn't very compelling. We can ALL say what you're saying is stupid, it takes more intelligence to actually break down what makes it stupid.


@Chronz , I don't know what are you actually trying to do here , you should know what Rose did his MVP year , and he surely was more impressive year after that if not for injuries through the season and that ACL , you probably know that he and Bulls would actually have much higher chances of beating the Heat that year.
I did. In fact before the injuries mounted, I had them pegged as a 50/50 proposition to beat the Heat, citing the improved efficiency/play of the team throughout the season.


Also comparison CP3 vs Rose is stupid , Rose when healthy is better player , he proved it his last 2 seasons ,
No offense but thinking the comparison is stupid, makes you stupid. Particularly when objective barometer paint CP3 in a superior light.


also about his clutch performances , stats backs him up too . If you forgot take a look at his performance against Paul and LAC , Bucks , etc. Rose when healthy is better player , more clutch , ffs even more efficient in these situations ( mvp year ) .
CP3 has his performances too tho, why are yours deemed more important? Why ignore the totality of clutch play? What stats are you alluding to because the stats can vary depending on time/score. Like if we define clutch play by what they do in the final 5 minutes of a game within 5pts, the stats might differ if we change the criteria to 2 minutes with 3 or whatever. I've never bothered to look into it because how you play for the entire game is more important than just a small% of the game but still, lets actually investigate the stats for once.

Looking at the varying time/score scenarios, this is what we come to: (Showing usage% and TS% and corresponding team success)


5PT game with less than 5 to play:
CP3
2013: USG%: 39.9 / 66.5TS% (Team ORTG 121.5, Opp.118.5)
2012: USG%: 36.5 / 57.8TS% (Team ORTG 105.6, Opp.101.6)

Rose
2012: USG%: 38.6 / 38.7TS% (Team ORTG 102.2, Opp.99.5)
2011: USG%: 45.8 / 52.9TS% (Team ORTG 114.6, Opp.95.1)


5PT game with less than 3 to play:
CP3
2013: USG%: 43.1 / 63.6TS% (Team ORTG 120.5, Opp.119.7)
2012: USG%: 43.2 / 57.2TS% (Team ORTG 105.1, Opp.109.0)

Rose
2012: USG%: 46.0 / 38.7TS% (Team ORTG 102.2, Opp.98.6)
2011: USG%: 47.4 / 56.2TS% (Team ORTG 120.8, Opp.88.7)


3PT Game with less than 30 seconds
CP3
2013: USG%: 51.5 / 75.3TS% (Team ORTG 130.3, Opp.138.3)
2012: USG%: 43.2 / 57.2TS% (Team ORTG 130.5, Opp.96.8)

Rose
2012: USG%: 61.7 / 59.2TS% (Team ORTG 114.1, Opp.86.8)
2011: USG%: 51.7 / 55.2TS% (Team ORTG 142.7, Opp.68.6)



We can change the measures to reflect how they play when behind or when ahead, and thats probably the next step but I think this is a good starting point. One thing I want you to notice is just how stout the Bulls are defensively in the clutch, regardless of what Rose does on the court, we all know that on the other end, the Bulls team defense is consistently dominant. That puts less pressure on the closer when he knows the opposing team is more likely to shoot a lower% than anything he creates. And in true clutch fashion, the offense is less consistent for both squads. If you look beyond these years, theres quite a difference in CP3's game, like in 2010, his usage never cracks above 28%, the NET rating for his teams performance is much higher than it was with the Clips. Prolly because he knows if we dont score, we aint stopping anyone on the other end during clutch time.

With 5 minutes to go, CP3 has been more effective in this time range as we barely scrape out wins. Rose by this measure isn't as productive but his team enjoys so much success on the other end that it hardly matters.

When you get down to 3 minutes, CP3 really starts chucking at a Rose like level, but doing so with more individual and team success offensively, again tho, the Bulls defense is just impregnable and they enjoy the greater net sum.


You can look up different time and score intervals but Im pretty confident CP3 fairs as well as he usually does. Clutch scoring is rarely consistent among teams but there are a few players who make you believe its a part of their DNA, Rose and CP3 both hold that description, despite your attempts to label it a stupid comparison.




It's plain stupid to continue with this , people forgot how he actually played and what he did at the end of the games , they're hating on him for sitting past season .
Nope, its more likely your hating on CP3 for staying healthier, I dont blame guys for injuries. I certainly dont care if Rose chose not to play despite medically cleared.

Clippersfan86
10-21-2013, 07:27 PM
Chronz what you just posted is what Arnovitz brought up in the Podcast. Due to CP3 Clippers were FAR AND AWAY the best offensive team in the last 2 and 5 minutes of games.. but also THE WORST defensive team. Like they got twice as bad defensively in clutch situations which points right at Vinny.

Furymaker
10-21-2013, 07:49 PM
im not that much into stats and trying too hard to prove my points , i just dont feel like doing so , I've went on nba.com and compared their clutch stats in 2010/2011 and I was surprised to see Derrick being more efficient and effective in clutch situations , I pointed that out and these stats were my backup if I can call them like that . And in my 1st post on this thread I've said I'll take Rose just because he's being more aggressive in these type of situations and he decides to take over the game , while Paul sometimes just stay put.
At the end of the day , both are great in clutch , both can win you games easily in clutch .
Paul will give you more plays with efficient offense but if he doesn't have his teammates hitting their shots his plays mean nothing and he will not take the blame for the loss .
Rose will give you killer instinct and will take over the game in every aspect of the game , his attacking will give you FTs and defenders in foul trouble , he can still make plays and with his athleticism he almost always shows up at defensive end , even if he doesn't he has team behind his back to make that defensive play . You are going to blame the loss on him if his shots aren't going in .
I'd be happy with both players in clutch situations , and with Rose being more decisive as scorer is why I said i'll take him .
And yeah btw. don't get this stupid thing so personal , english is not my native language and I have to go through lots of words to get the one most appropriate and in these discussions I'm not fan of working my brain off for that word . I didn't meant it's stupid argument who's better between those guys , just pointless as pretty much most of NBA "experts" and journalist thought Rose was better .

with all this being said , i have no time checking my sentences , do they make sense or not , so don't hate if there's something weird going on up there . Bulls vs Bucks about to start in 10mins or so , I feel kind sleepy and I have to go to collage in the morning , so if we're going to continue this you'll have to wait till tomorrow afternoon .

Denver-boy
10-21-2013, 07:50 PM
Its even, but I take rose, personally think the kid will be great! I cant see there being a wrong answer both are that good

Rndy
10-21-2013, 11:35 PM
Until I see Rose new founded efficiency and range for a big enough sample size I'm talking CP3 just because of his fantastic shooting but it's very close right now for me.

Team*Chicago
10-22-2013, 12:01 AM
Even though Derrick Rose is better than Chris Paul and the superior PG I'll say Chris because of the clutch situations. It ain't like Chris ever made it out of the 2nd round with his PG skills before.