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View Full Version : Who is the greatest player to never advance past the second round of the post-season?



Bruno
10-19-2013, 09:00 PM
Who is the greatest player to never advance past the second round of the post-season? Before last post-season, Tracy McGrady was the most notorious example of a HOF level talent never getting out of the first round, and to much debate. But I can't say I've ever seen a thread or discussion dedicated to conference championship virgins. Who've you got?

10 days until 2013-2014 tip off.

JerseyPalahniuk
10-19-2013, 09:03 PM
Not the greatest but Chris Paul has yet to make it.

asandhu23
10-19-2013, 09:09 PM
I think Chris Mullin as well.

asandhu23
10-19-2013, 09:14 PM
never mind 98 pacers. went to ECF but never went beyond.

Bruno
10-19-2013, 09:15 PM
Yao never got past the second round, although he was fighting for it with all he had before breaking the foot in 2009 vs LAL.

JerseyPalahniuk
10-19-2013, 09:18 PM
Yao never got past the second round, although he was fighting for it with all he had before breaking the foot in 2009 vs LAL.

I wouldn't consider him one of the greatest players though.

Bruno
10-19-2013, 09:28 PM
I wouldn't consider him one of the greatest players though.

I wouldn't consider him a top 50 all-time guy. But I just looked at the top 75 players in WS/48 in NBA history, Chris Paul and Yao Ming are the only two players in the top 75 to never advance past the second round of the post-season. So I guess the question is more so who are the best players to never get out of the second round, but the criteria doesn't have to be top 50 all time talent, just what other notable talents, players with a few all-star games under the belts, ect.

Elton Brand is another all-star level player who never cracked into a conference championship (he's 77th on the all-time WS/48 list).

And my money is on Chris Paul getting the Clippers to the WCF this year if they're healthy (I dont think they will be and that's why I've got a OKC/SAS WCF as my prediction). If he doesn't with this roster and this coach, it's going to become a really interesting discussion as to why such a statistically dominant and brilliant floor general can't get his team into a conference championship. He's a had some poor rosters and some injury problems in the past, but this should be his year. I think he either gets over the hump or he's held back by injury again.

JerseyPalahniuk
10-19-2013, 09:47 PM
I wouldn't consider him a top 50 all-time guy. But I just looked at the top 75 players in WS/48 in NBA history, Chris Paul and Yao Ming are the only two players in the top 75 to never advance past the second round of the post-season. So I guess the question is more so who are the best players to never get out of the second round, but the criteria doesn't have to be top 50 all time talent, just what other notable talents, players with a few all-star games under the belts, ect.

Elton Brand is another all-star level player who never cracked into a conference championship (he's 77th on the all-time WS/48 list).

And my money is on Chris Paul getting the Clippers to the WCF this year if they're healthy (I dont think they will be and that's why I've got a OKC/SAS WCF as my prediction). If he doesn't with this roster and this coach, it's going to become a really interesting discussion as to why such a statistically dominant and brilliant floor general can't get his team into a conference championship. He's a had some poor rosters and some injury problems in the past, but this should be his year. I think he either gets over the hump or he's held back by injury again.

Well it makes sense that you wouldn't see that many players when you use Win Shares as your criteria ha. But yeah then Paul is probably the greatest and Yao/Brand fit in the next tier.

George Gervin & Pete Maravich never have either.

Bruno
10-19-2013, 09:57 PM
Well it makes sense that you wouldn't see that many players when you use Win Shares as your criteria ha. But yeah then Paul is probably the greatest and Yao/Brand fit in the next tier.

George Gervin & Pete Maravich never have either.

yeah i guess that was self defeating haha.

wow man, pistol, nice find. i'm seeing that gervin made it one year (i've noticed a lot of players making it once).

tredigs
10-19-2013, 10:04 PM
I think Chris Mullin as well.

I think Mullin got to the ECF's on the Pacers with Reggie.

Pretty sure the answer's gotta be CP3 here. But he's still got a lot of years ahead of him, and there's a good chance of that changing this year.

Out of retired guys, really not sure. Maybe some beast from the 60's who couldn't get to the finals when there were only 3 rounds. Loophole ftw.

JerseyPalahniuk
10-19-2013, 10:07 PM
yeah i guess that was self defeating haha.

wow man, pistol, nice find. i'm seeing that gervin made it one year (i've noticed a lot of players making it once).

yup you're right. forgot that there were only 2 rounds before the finals back then.

b@llhog24
10-19-2013, 10:16 PM
Pistol isn't better than Paul so Cp3

kblo247
10-19-2013, 11:30 PM
CP should be mentioned. He's a tad overrated in the general scheme. He's been outplayed or offset by basically every pg he should dominate as the best at his position. Parker, Billups, and Conley come to mind as besting him because he should have destroyed them as the consensus number 1 pg in the league. But he's a RS player

JerseyPalahniuk
10-19-2013, 11:44 PM
CP should be mentioned. He's a tad overrated in the general scheme. He's been outplayed or offset by basically every pg he should dominate as the best at his position. Parker, Billups, and Conley come to mind as besting him because he should have destroyed them as the consensus number 1 pg in the league. But he's a RS player

what do you mean should be mentioned? 4/5 posters in this thread already did.

tredigs
10-19-2013, 11:44 PM
CP should be mentioned. He's a tad overrated in the general scheme. He's been outplayed or offset by basically every pg he should dominate as the best at his position. Parker, Billups, and Conley come to mind as besting him because he should have destroyed them as the consensus number 1 pg in the league. But he's a RS player

21/10/5 on a 57% TS while leading the NBA in PER in 3 of his 5 playoff appearances. WinShares in 2 of 5. Not too bad of stats for a regular season player.

Clippersfan86
10-19-2013, 11:51 PM
21/10/5 on a 57% TS while leading the NBA in PER in 3 of his 5 playoff appearances. WinShares in 2 of 5. Not too bad of stats for a regular season player.

Sounds like a scrub to me... :confused:

b@llhog24
10-20-2013, 01:07 AM
21/10/5 on a 57% TS while leading the NBA in PER in 3 of his 5 playoff appearances. WinShares in 2 of 5. Not too bad of stats for a regular season player.

What a bum...

D_Rose1118
10-20-2013, 02:02 AM
21/10/5 on a 57% TS while leading the NBA in PER in 3 of his 5 playoff appearances. WinShares in 2 of 5. Not too bad of stats for a regular season player.

just doesnt translate to wins in the playoffs

tredigs
10-20-2013, 02:32 AM
just doesnt translate to wins in the playoffs
We've all seen him take over certain playoff games and get the W, but he plays in the West, it takes a lot more than that to advance. For his sake, hopefully Blake can stay healthy and step it up in the postseason.

DreamShaker
10-20-2013, 03:42 AM
T-Mac should probably count. He had zero effect on that Spurs team.

tredigs
10-20-2013, 04:00 AM
T-Mac should probably count. He had zero effect on that Spurs team.

Yeah anybody who's not a rotation player at the very least counts in my book. T-Mac truly never made it out of the 2nd round, and he's a pretty good argument with CP3. Both peak and career.

lamzoka
10-20-2013, 10:45 AM
Not the greatest but Chris Paul has yet to make it.

Wait... CP3 never made it to the 2nd round???

Goose17
10-20-2013, 11:08 AM
Bernard King? Alex English? Dave Bing?

ManRam
10-20-2013, 11:47 AM
CP3 is stupid good. Nothing overrated about him...he's essentially a video game create-a-PG. He's the answer here.

Can't really fault him for not doing so in New Orleans...he got those teams to overachieve plenty. He's gotta do it soon in LAC now, for sure.

3RDASYSTEM
10-20-2013, 12:01 PM
21/10/5 on a 57% TS while leading the NBA in PER in 3 of his 5 playoff appearances. WinShares in 2 of 5. Not too bad of stats for a regular season player.

You guys are really starting to make the PER and TS **** look like pure poppycock

this guy has highest PER in 3 of 5 playoff appearances is considered the best or top 2 at his position and top 5 or so in the league and he doesn't have a conference or Finals trip under his belt?

im glad I know how to rank players the right way..... the player-observer

so now the regular season of 82 games is different from 7 game series? he is a good regular season player as well as a good playoff player right?

he can only do so much as a 'floor general', he cant score 40pts on any given night when needed, he's more of a 17ppg and 10apg style of player, he's no IVERSON type that can get 40 on any night but IVERSON can drop that 10apg if needed, that's what I call a killer on the court, doing both at highest level

3RDASYSTEM
10-20-2013, 12:12 PM
CP3 is stupid good. Nothing overrated about him...he's essentially a video game create-a-PG. He's the answer here.

Can't really fault him for not doing so in New Orleans...he got those teams to overachieve plenty. He's gotta do it soon in LAC now, for sure.

so did he underachieve in clipperville or do they have the same talent level as the place he left previously? I know his story is not over yet but I don't think that knee will ever allow him to be that mvp sure shot guy again...he just seems to heavy and that will only take a bigger toll on his knee

tredigs
10-20-2013, 12:38 PM
:eyebrow:
You guys are really starting to make the PER and TS **** look like pure poppycock

this guy has highest PER in 3 of 5 playoff appearances is considered the best or top 2 at his position and top 5 or so in the league and he doesn't have a conference or Finals trip under his belt?

im glad I know how to rank players the right way..... the player-observer

so now the regular season of 82 games is different from 7 game series? he is a good regular season player as well as a good playoff player right?

he can only do so much as a 'floor general', he cant score 40pts on any given night when needed, he's more of a 17ppg and 10apg style of player, he's no IVERSON type that can get 40 on any night but IVERSON can drop that 10apg if needed, that's what I call a killer on the court, doing both at highest level

No, he's not an Iverson type. Iverson averaged 10 more attempts a game than Cp3 in the playoffs, and shot it consistently TERRIBLY. And there's a big difference between being a 6apg playoff guy and 10 a night.

The one season AI made it out of the 2nd round the best team he beat was a 50 win Bucks team (where AI averaged 34% from the field). Obviously he was double teamed and they needed his scoring, but Mutombo averaging 17/16 as the best defensive player on the court along with other elite defenders is a big reason why they went on (along with, you know, playing in the East).

If CP3 spent his career in the other conference, he wouldn't be up for debate here. The gap in the conferences shouldn't go unnoticed.

It's not as if Paul doesn't have his faults and one of them is not being able to put up 40 when they need him to (he can, just rare), but let's not ignore context. CP3 is better than AI all day.

abe_froman
10-20-2013, 02:04 PM
Bernard King? Alex English? Dave Bing?
english made the conference finals in '85

Guppyfighter
10-20-2013, 02:11 PM
People who try use playoff success as an argument is one kind of awful, but not acknowledging the conference gap is all kinds of awful.

Clippersfan86
10-20-2013, 02:15 PM
so did he underachieve in clipperville or do they have the same talent level as the place he left previously? I know his story is not over yet but I don't think that knee will ever allow him to be that mvp sure shot guy again...he just seems to heavy and that will only take a bigger toll on his knee

As many have pointed out before... CP3 has NEVER lost to an inferior team in the playoffs really. In New Orleans he was constantly CARRYING those teams and getting everybody to play well above their usual level. He faced teams like the Spurs, Melo's WCF Nuggets etc. In LA he lost to the 2012 Spurs, which were an incredible, classic team IMO (especially offensively) in which the 5 best players on the Clippers including him were injured. Then in 2013 he lost to the Grizzlies who had the same 56 wins, were much healthier and quite frankly deserve to be called better than the Clippers last year.

There isn't one instance where CP3 and his team were clear favorites and lost in the playoffs that I can think of. He's just had bad luck of drawing beastly teams in his career. The guy just turned 28, it's too soon to write him off. He finally has the talent AND coaching to pair with and the deep runs should start coming going forward.

He's in the best shape of his life and this isn't hyperbole from a Clippers fan or normal preseason hype. He's always been almost pudgy and come into camp out of shape a bit but this year the dude is RIPPED. I'm talking about 8 pack and Blake Griffin arms on a PG. He's working harder now than he ever has according to him and colleagues.

Bruno
10-20-2013, 03:48 PM
You guys are really starting to make the PER and TS **** look like pure poppycock

this guy has highest PER in 3 of 5 playoff appearances is considered the best or top 2 at his position and top 5 or so in the league and he doesn't have a conference or Finals trip under his belt?

im glad I know how to rank players the right way..... the player-observer

so now the regular season of 82 games is different from 7 game series? he is a good regular season player as well as a good playoff player right?

he can only do so much as a 'floor general', he cant score 40pts on any given night when needed, he's more of a 17ppg and 10apg style of player, he's no IVERSON type that can get 40 on any night but IVERSON can drop that 10apg if needed, that's what I call a killer on the court, doing both at highest level

dude why do you have to bring up AI in every post? AI played in a conference championship and his name shouldn't have even been mentioned here.

Bruno
10-20-2013, 03:51 PM
DOMINIQUE WILKINS!

the closest he ever got was in 1988 when atlanta lost to boston in seven games in the semis. Atlanta lead 3-2 going into game six and lost both games six and seven by two points each. talk about a heart breaker!

not to mention that dominique dominated game seven!
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198805220BOS.html

Bruno
10-20-2013, 03:58 PM
DOMINIQUE WILKINS!

the closest he ever got was in 1988 when atlanta lost to boston in seven games in the semis. Atlanta lead 3-2 going into game six and lost both games six and seven by two points each. talk about a heart breaker!

not to mention that dominique dominated game seven!
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198805220BOS.html

Over the final two games against Boston he averaged 41, 7.5, 3.5 on a TS% of .571 with an average game score of 29.0. talk about giving it your all, dominating and still falling short man.

if any older posters know that the two losses were a testament to the brilliance of boston or the lack of support around dominique i'd love to know. it looks like to me that Bird nearly canceled out Nique and that Bostons front line was just too dominant.

Bruno
10-20-2013, 04:01 PM
As many have pointed out before... CP3 has NEVER lost to an inferior team in the playoffs really. In New Orleans he was constantly CARRYING those teams and getting everybody to play well above their usual level. He faced teams like the Spurs, Melo's WCF Nuggets etc. In LA he lost to the 2012 Spurs, which were an incredible, classic team IMO (especially offensively) in which the 5 best players on the Clippers including him were injured. Then in 2013 he lost to the Grizzlies who had the same 56 wins, were much healthier and quite frankly deserve to be called better than the Clippers last year.

There isn't one instance where CP3 and his team were clear favorites and lost in the playoffs that I can think of. He's just had bad luck of drawing beastly teams in his career. The guy just turned 28, it's too soon to write him off. He finally has the talent AND coaching to pair with and the deep runs should start coming going forward.

He's in the best shape of his life and this isn't hyperbole from a Clippers fan or normal preseason hype. He's always been almost pudgy and come into camp out of shape a bit but this year the dude is RIPPED. I'm talking about 8 pack and Blake Griffin arms on a PG. He's working harder now than he ever has according to him and colleagues.

i agree with most of this but if JB was here he'd probably tell you that LAC lost with HCA last year. but wasn't a key clipper injured? can't remember.

he certainly shouldn't be written off. dude's got time and a good looking team.

Bruno
10-20-2013, 04:04 PM
Bernard King? Alex English? Dave Bing?

Good call on King/Bing.

I'm seeing that English and the Nuggets got to the WCF in 1985, where they lost to the Lakers 4-1.

Goose17
10-20-2013, 04:45 PM
I'm seeing that English and the Nuggets got to the WCF in 1985, where they lost to the Lakers 4-1.

You're right. My bad.

Bruno
10-20-2013, 04:53 PM
You're right. My bad.

but he's another example of an all-star level guy who's made it once. i swear ive come across 10-15 of them during this, i should have written them all down.

TrueFan420
10-20-2013, 05:30 PM
I wouldn't consider him one of the greatest players though.

He might have been if he didn't have injuries ruin his career

PowerHouse
10-20-2013, 05:41 PM
Vince Carter and Rod Strickland.

PowerHouse
10-20-2013, 10:27 PM
George Gervin & Pete Maravich never have either.

Gervin made the Conference finals 3 times.

east fb knicks
10-20-2013, 10:37 PM
People who try use playoff success as an argument is one kind of awful, but not acknowledging the conference gap is all kinds of awful.

were not talking about the finals here just the dam 2nd round YOU HAVE TO JUDGE A TOP 3 PLAYER ON PLAYOFF SUCCESS OR ELSE WHAT DO THEY PLAY THE GAME FOR :facepalm:

Bruno
10-20-2013, 11:36 PM
Vince Carter and Rod Strickland.

Carter finally got there with Orlando in 2010 im pretty sure.

Bruno
10-20-2013, 11:39 PM
Based off everyones contributions, its looking like Chris Paul, Yao Ming, Dominique Wilkins, Pistol Pete, King, Bing, Strickland and Elton Brand are maybe the most notable talents.

we have a lot of great contemporaries under 25 who haven't done it yet but it seems premature/unfair to mention them here due to their age/tenure.

Bruno
10-20-2013, 11:41 PM
Based off everyones contributions, its looking like Chris Paul, Yao Ming, Dominique Wilkins, Pistol Pete, King, Bing, Strickland and Elton Brand are maybe the most notable talents.

we have a lot of great contemporaries under 25 who haven't done it yet but it seems premature/unfair to mention them here due to their age/tenure.
and now that we've gone through this it seems like "best who've never made it to a finals" would be a more interesting question with more notable names.

east fb knicks
10-20-2013, 11:53 PM
and now that we've gone through this it seems like "best who've never made it to a finals" would be a more interesting question with more notable names.

did you seriously just quote your self :laugh:

Bruno
10-20-2013, 11:59 PM
did you seriously just quote your self :laugh:

i do that all the time. its a continuation of a thought- why brand myself with an edit stamp, right?

PowerHouse
10-21-2013, 02:10 AM
I know his career isnt over yet but David Lee is a 30 year old veteran and all-star who deserves a mention.

kblo247
10-21-2013, 05:46 AM
He just made the playoffs for the first time.

kblo247
10-21-2013, 06:05 AM
21/10/5 on a 57% TS while leading the NBA in PER in 3 of his 5 playoff appearances. WinShares in 2 of 5. Not too bad of stats for a regular season player.

The stats are good, but make no mistake about it. He doesn't dominate. He is supposed to be the consensus best at his position.

Tony Parker 19/6/4/1 49% shooting
Chauncey Billups 23/7/4 49% shooting, 66% threes
Tony Parker 17/8/3
Mike Conley 17/8/4

Kobe, Dirk, Duncan, Shaq, MJ, etc have dominated their damn positional matchup. Make no mistake about it Mike Conley shouldnt play the best pg in the league to a marginal standstill, you wouldn't see Clyde **** with MJ, Ginobili with Kobe, Pau with Dirk, etc and you know it over a 7 game series but it always happened to Paul. He gets played to standstills that are negligible. He's lucky he never faced Deron years back the way he used to be destroyed.

For reference this is what the best at their damn position do to opposition in a series, not anything cp has displayed


Kobe 08 29/6/4 - Manu 08 13/3/3
Dirk 11 25/9/3 - Pau 11 13/9/4

I don't buy what's being sold with the whole its not his fault thing. He is a RS guy and those career playoff averages are solid, but they aren't best pg in the league. He's not dominating anyone, he's not taking over a series with his scoring, passing, or d. Hell he cant even go out there and give you 40 minutes a night in the playoffs like most superstars because he isn't conditioned enough for it over a whole series. He should be better.

And the whole he was never expected to win, miss me with that, he dropped two series off the top of my head he should've won ... SA with hca in 08, being backdoor swept this past playoffs by Memphis up 2-0 with hca.

kblo247
10-21-2013, 06:13 AM
and now that we've gone through this it seems like "best who've never made it to a finals" would be a more interesting question with more notable names.

Guy wearing number 10, stealing money from the lakers.

Guy handed 2 Mvps he didn't deserve to sort out a thug image driven by the palace brawl and AIs hiphop era, when a uniform policy and other measures were being enacted to class up the image to sponsors. Because him getting it was partially racial and pr driven as opposed to impact, which he didnt have like Stockton, Payton, or Kidd all of whom were better, more well rounded, and didnt get Mvps has led to him being the only MVP (aside from Rose who got hurt) let alone two time MVP to never play a finals game

Guy who played with Dirk, Finley, Van Exel, Walker, Jamison, Amare, Marion, Johnson, Q, JRich, Shaq, Hill, and likely end his career next to Kobe and Pau. So he's always had talent but never got the job done like a true star.

Come on Bruno you know that answer

Chronz
10-21-2013, 12:39 PM
The stats are good, but make no mistake about it. He doesn't dominate. He is supposed to be the consensus best at his position.
Make no mistake, those stats are BEYOND good. And he dominates when healthy, thats all I know.



Tony Parker 19/6/4/1 49% shooting
Chauncey Billups 23/7/4 49% shooting, 66% threes
Tony Parker 17/8/3
Mike Conley 17/8/4

What about the more relevant stats and the kind of defense they are facing. For example, against Conley, CP3 had to go up against the likes of TA and Pondexter with the DPOY behind them, a strong Memphis defensive foundation as opposed to Conley going up against an inconsistent/hurt defensive squad, and CP3 still blows him out statistically.



Kobe, Dirk, Duncan, Shaq, MJ, etc have dominated their damn positional matchup.
Not really, remember when Kobe got "outplayed" by Paul Pierce. You could make an argument that he got outplayed by Rip (21-5-4 on 41% vs Kobes pitiful 22-4-2 on 38%), and he got "outplayed" by an old man Reggie Miller in the Finals (dont bring up Kobes injury if your just going to ignore CP3's injuries).


Make no mistake about it Mike Conley shouldnt play the best pg in the league to a marginal standstill,
And he didn't, at least not if you look at stats that matter.


you wouldn't see Clyde **** with MJ, Ginobili with Kobe, Pau with Dirk, etc and you know it over a 7 game series but it always happened to Paul. He gets played to standstills that are negligible. He's lucky he never faced Deron years back the way he used to be destroyed.
But we have seen Dirk get outplayed by the mighty Stephen Jackson, we've seen Kobe lose several "matchups" based on the standards you've seemingly set, we've seen Kareem outplayed by a past his prime Nate Thurmond, Magic outplayed by Calvin Murphy, Sleepy Floyd outright lit him up in the playoffs once. We've seen Jason Terry torch Bron in the same playoff run where we saw him lock up D-Rose.
Its not always about the single matchup, its about the circumstances too. Has CP3 ever lost a series he should have won matters just as much as the singular matchup. The answer for everyone except for MJ tends to be yes but thats definitely arguable.



For reference this is what the best at their damn position do to opposition in a series, not anything cp has displayed


Kobe 08 29/6/4 - Manu 08 13/3/3
Dirk 11 25/9/3 - Pau 11 13/9/4
An injured Manu ? RLY? Thats what you want to show us? Why not show us an injured Kobe vs Reggie? Or how about stacking up Richard Hamiltons stats vs Kobes in 04? Spare me the selective bias, try to put your hate aside plz.


I don't buy what's being sold with the whole its not his fault thing. He is a RS guy and those career playoff averages are solid, but they aren't best pg in the league. He's not dominating anyone, he's not taking over a series with his scoring, passing, or d. Hell he cant even go out there and give you 40 minutes a night in the playoffs like most superstars because he isn't conditioned enough for it over a whole series. He should be better.
Based on wat doe?


And the whole he was never expected to win, miss me with that, he dropped two series off the top of my head he should've won ... SA with hca in 08, being backdoor swept this past playoffs by Memphis up 2-0 with hca.
You actually believe CP3 should have won with Blake being injured and his best sidekick being his backup? LMFAO, our OFFENSE (spearheaded by CP3) was one of the best in the playoffs despite facing the best defensive team in the league, the reason we lost had NOTHING to do with CP3, unless you're foolish enough to suggest he should have been locking down the paint (the reason we lost). The truth is, CP3 led his team to more success against Memphis than a player who is suppose to be superior to him (Durant).

I dont remember the 08 series off the top of my head, all I remember was West suffering a back injury and being unable to show up for much of the series.

Bruno
10-21-2013, 07:35 PM
I know his career isnt over yet but David Lee is a 30 year old veteran and all-star who deserves a mention.
good call. although he technically made it out last season on one leg.

Guy wearing number 10, stealing money from the lakers.

Guy handed 2 Mvps he didn't deserve to sort out a thug image driven by the palace brawl and AIs hiphop era, when a uniform policy and other measures were being enacted to class up the image to sponsors. Because him getting it was partially racial and pr driven as opposed to impact, which he didnt have like Stockton, Payton, or Kidd all of whom were better, more well rounded, and didnt get Mvps has led to him being the only MVP (aside from Rose who got hurt) let alone two time MVP to never play a finals game

Guy who played with Dirk, Finley, Van Exel, Walker, Jamison, Amare, Marion, Johnson, Q, JRich, Shaq, Hill, and likely end his career next to Kobe and Pau. So he's always had talent but never got the job done like a true star.

Come on Bruno you know that answer

i guess it could be nash. yeah.

Chronz
10-21-2013, 08:09 PM
So Nash wasn't a true star, but hes the best player to never make the Finals? I cant decide if you guys are complimenting or berating him.

MDD
10-21-2013, 09:00 PM
Chris Paul better than PISTOL PETE? NEVER THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

TheMightyHumph
10-21-2013, 09:19 PM
CP should be mentioned. He's a tad overrated in the general scheme. He's been outplayed or offset by basically every pg he should dominate as the best at his position. Parker, Billups, and Conley come to mind as besting him because he should have destroyed them as the consensus number 1 pg in the league. But he's a RS player

Parker didn't outplay Paul. Spurs were the superior team

kblo247
10-21-2013, 10:25 PM
There's not an instance you guys can name where Paul dominated a pg. even old *** fisher bettered his season averages vs him. For the best there is at his spot, I don't see a guy dominating the positional matchup at all in his postseason career. Let alone do i see a guy who has taken over a total series in his career like a true superstar. Face facts they should've win vs SA in 08 and Memphis up 2-0 with hca. Paul couldn't log 40mins and he couldn't drop 30-40, he's not that level of great. He's 20 and 10 good but that's not enough, its nt superstar quality, and there's no way the true best in the world at the point should be stalemated basically by PGs every playoff season of his career. He hasn't stepped it up enough.

Have any of you ever seen a series where you can say damn Chris Paul kicked *** and took over? I can think of a couple games but not a series, not even half a series. Then again I'm still on record f saying the last superstar pg the league had was Kidd in Jersey, and we've just had all star PGs in Nash, Deron, Rondo, and Paul after

kblo247
10-21-2013, 10:31 PM
So Nash wasn't a true star, but hes the best player to never make the Finals? I cant decide if you guys are complimenting or berating him.

Lets me be clear.

Nash by definition of what he was handed, two Mvps is the unequivocal answer he's the only MVP in history and two time at that to not play a finals game.

Was Nash a true superstar? To me hell no. Was he deserving of those Mvps? Nope, but I know why the league gave them to him. They needed to clean up the image and the little clean cut white guy was just the token after the palace brawl and AIs era of tats, rap, and bling; it went hand and hand with the uniform dress code being implemented. Nash has never had the impact of Stockton, Kidd, or Payton. They were all better, more well rounded, and helped their teams accomplish more while playing with less. Ash has always played with tons of talent and not got it done, that's on him, a true superstar gets to finals and wins rings with what he played with. He's just a niche all star like a Ray Allen or Pau Gasol historically.

For Bruno's question though because of that resume, because of the Mvps, because of the talent he's had for all his career, its his by definition

east fb knicks
10-22-2013, 01:31 AM
lmao nash was a monster in his time future hofer and if it wasn't for amare coming off the bench the suns would have won that year not just make it to the finals nash's suns revolutionized the nba they started all this small ball stuff shame on you people for trying to down play the greatness of steve nash in his prime he is one of my top 5 all time players to watch it's just a shame the suns couldn't find a legit center back then or they would have won multiple titles not just one :mad:

kblo247
10-22-2013, 03:38 AM
All that small ball stuff as you out it won how many titles for Nash or other teams? I will wait.

east fb knicks
10-22-2013, 04:55 AM
All that small ball stuff as you out it won how many titles for Nash or other teams? I will wait.

two for the heat :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

kblo247
10-22-2013, 05:56 AM
two for the heat :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:
And Dallas, Boston, LA's 2, SA's 2, and Miami still say it wasnt a relevant way to win.

The current day Miami have a shooting 4, but that wasnt unheard of as Phil's teams as well as Pop and Rudy and the Badboys stretched it with a 3pt shooting 4. Miami wins off D. Showtime even with their pace ran off stops.

Dantonis **** has never won in this league because its based off simply out scoring the other team. Current day Miami gets stops and stretch 4s were used long before Nash and Pringles. So they didnt invent anything, nor have their ways won anything.

Goose17
10-22-2013, 10:47 AM
I just read that today would have been the birthday of Drazen Petrovic. It reminded me of this thread.

He was in the finals in like 1990 but he only averaged ten minutes a game so I'm going to throw his name into the mix.

Chronz
10-22-2013, 11:44 AM
All that small ball stuff as you out it won how many titles for Nash or other teams? I will wait.
Small ball is why they didnt win, is that all on Nash?

kblo247
10-22-2013, 03:32 PM
Small ball is why they didnt win, is that all on Nash?

Well he hasn't ever worked with a true big. I mean Dwight was awful in many ways and they openly butted heads. He and Shaq got into it during their time together and he struggled when it was ran thru Shaq w porter.

He deserves some faults because he isn't used to playing with traditional bigs. He wants face up guys like Amare or shooters like Tim Thomas as his 4s and 5s so he can run his pnr and wheel routes.

His way hasn't won

Bruno
10-22-2013, 04:54 PM
So Nash wasn't a true star, but hes the best player to never make the Finals? I cant decide if you guys are complimenting or berating him.

he was a true star.

Chronz
10-22-2013, 05:12 PM
Well he hasn't ever worked with a true big. I mean Dwight was awful in many ways and they openly butted heads.
Nash was never right last year, he struggled turning the corner without an absolutely perfect screen, he wasn't like that in the past and Dwight hated his stint so I dont doubt he was making their offense worse.


He and Shaq got into it during their time together and he struggled when it was ran thru Shaq w porter.
Struggled is a harsh term, its more like he was being restricted by Porter. What Porter did to Phoenix is worse than what D'Antoni tried to turn the Lakers into. Shaq and Nash were both capable of playing in an uptempo offense, in fact, the minute they canned Porter and went back to SSOL, they were back up to their high scoring ways, both Nash and Shaq saw their efficiency improve along with the teams.


He deserves some faults because he isn't used to playing with traditional bigs. He wants face up guys like Amare or shooters like Tim Thomas as his 4s and 5s so he can run his pnr and wheel routes. His way hasn't won
See I just dont think this is true, just those are the easiest/cost efficient guys they were able to find. He literally revived the careers of many journeymen. Tim Thomas and Diaw werent exactly anything worth bragging about at the time, yet he contended with them playing positions where defense is of the utmost importance.

Which years do you believe he had the talent where he should have gone all the way. Its easier to boil it down to years than just listing his support over the years. Like I do believe he could have won a title with Dirk eventually but would that have made him a clear cut star if he did so alongside Dirk as opposed to being the "MVP" of his team?

JordansBulls
10-22-2013, 05:19 PM
Dominique Wilkins comes to mind as well.

BearsBullsSox
10-22-2013, 08:05 PM
^^^
What the fukc?!? Hold up, I thought JordansBulls died last week.

Bruno
10-22-2013, 08:07 PM
Dominique Wilkins comes to mind as well.

totally. but i had no idea he dominated game six and seven against boston in 1988 before looking it up. that was before my time.