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BklynKnicks3
10-18-2013, 01:10 PM
Espn is a joke. Kobe 25th ? Melo 15th? K love who never been in playoff missed a lot of games is ahead of Melo. Rose who is great but didn't play the entire year is ahead of Melo. Toney Parker lol, Paul Geroge ahead of Melo lol, this goes on and On but I can imagine espn is this dumb. If u put the 2 biggest stars from the 2 biggest markets extra low there will be alot of buzz from angry fans. Knicks 37 wins according to the expert computer system by espn. So why does vegas have knicks at 49.5 ???? because vegas actually has to pay there money to u if u win. Espn just talks doesn't back anything up

bholly
10-18-2013, 01:22 PM
Espn is a joke. Kobe 25th ? Melo 15th? K love who never been in playoff missed a lot of games is ahead of Melo. Rose who is great but didn't play the entire year is ahead of Melo. Toney Parker lol, Paul Geroge ahead of Melo lol, this goes on and On but I can imagine espn is this dumb. If u put the 2 biggest stars from the 2 biggest markets extra low there will be alot of buzz from angry fans. Knicks 37 wins according to the expert computer system by espn. So why does vegas have knicks at 49.5 ???? because vegas actually has to pay there money to u if u win. Espn just talks doesn't back anything up

As has been pointed out many many times, including at the top of every nbarank page, these are projections of the 2013-14 season, not ratings of last year.

chi-townlove1
10-18-2013, 01:24 PM
Alright mr angry. Relax. Rose, Parker, and George will have better years than melo. 15 isn't right, he's top 7 probably. But I also put those other three guys in top 7 as well. So you know ESPN is just trolling, why bother

NYKnickFanatic
10-18-2013, 01:24 PM
Then don't watch.

still1ballin
10-18-2013, 01:26 PM
Then don't watch.

benzni
10-18-2013, 01:29 PM
Then don't watch.

shep33
10-18-2013, 01:29 PM
ESPN is just silly

Jamiecballer
10-18-2013, 01:30 PM
sounds about right although i don't agree with Blake Griffin ranking above him.

NYKnickFanatic
10-18-2013, 01:33 PM
Then don't watch.


Then don't watch.

:clap:

LongIslandIcedZ
10-18-2013, 01:35 PM
Seems about right to me. I think he's top 5 when it comes to talent, but unfortunately he's never been able to maximize his god given ability.

NYKnickFanatic
10-18-2013, 01:35 PM
Let's all dance.

:dance:

D-Leethal
10-18-2013, 02:15 PM
Well, I think at the very least people should acknowledge why Knicks fans / New Yorkers claim there is a negative stigma towards us in the eyes of the general public/national media. It ain't just paranoia or narcissism - its **** like this, the 37 win prediction, and taking an article over a month old and plastering it all over the TV broadcasts and airwaves while presenting it as yesterdays news just to talk down the Knicks.

NYKnickFanatic
10-18-2013, 02:18 PM
Well, I think at the very least people should acknowledge why Knicks fans / New Yorkers claim there is a negative stigma towards us in the eyes of the general public/national media. It ain't just paranoia or narcissism - its **** like this, the 37 win prediction, and taking an article over a month old and plastering it all over the TV broadcasts and airwaves while presenting it as yesterdays news just to talk down the Knicks.

YOUR SIG! lmaooo :laugh2: I'm dying!

Chris Smith is SO bad. OMG! :laugh:

still1ballin
10-18-2013, 02:19 PM
:dance:

mdm692
10-18-2013, 02:19 PM
Well, I think at the very least people should acknowledge why Knicks fans / New Yorkers claim there is a negative stigma towards us in the eyes of the general public/national media. It ain't just paranoia or narcissism - its **** like this, the 37 win prediction, and taking an article over a month old and plastering it all over the TV broadcasts and airwaves while presenting it as yesterdays news just to talk down the Knicks.
Thank Spike Lee.

b@llhog24
10-18-2013, 02:27 PM
Seems about right.

D-Leethal
10-18-2013, 02:27 PM
Thank Spike Lee.

Why should having a "superfan" piss everyone off? I would hope the hate stems from something deeper than that...Thats petty nonsense.

I think it stems from general distaste for New Yorkers and that sentiment permeates through all of its sports teams.

DR_1
10-18-2013, 02:28 PM
Horrible, but after the Kobe debacle what else can we expect from ESPN these days?

D-Leethal
10-18-2013, 02:29 PM
I'm not sure what everyones criteria is, but does anyone honestly think there are 14 players in this league that could bring that sorry Knicks cast to 54 wins - especially given the lack of scoring talent, injuries to every starter, old guys who ran out of gas and had to retire mid season, and regression from Tyson defensively we saw last year? I couldn't name 5 that are capable of shouldering the monster load Melo had to last year on a nightly basis, and I think that should count for A LOT, especially when there are sidekicks who have never had to shoulder any major load in their career, that have the luxury of playing off of MVP type players getting thrown on that list before him.

beasted86
10-18-2013, 02:31 PM
Who cares? ESPN is wrong all the time in these rankings and season predictions.

If I had a quarter for every time they completely blown it with conference, standings, and finals predictions, I'd be rich.

MrfadeawayJB
10-18-2013, 02:34 PM
ESPN whole rankings system is weird

mdm692
10-18-2013, 02:41 PM
Why should having a "superfan" piss everyone off? I would hope the hate stems from something deeper than that...Thats petty nonsense.

I think it stems from general distaste for New Yorkers and that sentiment permeates through all of its sports teams.

He always talking **** and jinxing the Knicks by saying they're going all the way lol. But for real its NY dude what do you expect.

D-Leethal
10-18-2013, 03:07 PM
He always talking **** and jinxing the Knicks by saying they're going all the way lol. But for real its NY dude what do you expect.

Spikes usually pretty real with it as far as his projections for the Knicks. Maybe in the 90s he was talking that junk the same way Ewing would, but all I heard from him this offseason was legitimate critiques and saying the Knicks do not play like a smart bunch and that was our main issue.

I do understand its sort of a natural thing to have general distaste towards the biggest city's. Its not far from my favorite thing to say on here "nobody likes a frontrunner". NY is a frontrunner in this world and everyone hates us.

Beltrans Mole
10-18-2013, 03:25 PM
He should be ranked worse than 15. He's a cancerous chucker who can't win a big game or take his team very far. All he does is score.

mdm692
10-18-2013, 03:29 PM
Spikes usually pretty real with it as far as his projections for the Knicks. Maybe in the 90s he was talking that junk the same way Ewing would, but all I heard from him this offseason was legitimate critiques and saying the Knicks do not play like a smart bunch and that was our main issue.

I do understand its sort of a natural thing to have general distaste towards the biggest city's. Its not far from my favorite thing to say on here "nobody likes a frontrunner". NY is a frontrunner in this world and everyone hates us.

Ehhh not trying to start an argument but it's more due to the reputation the city and it's inhabitants have build. Not saying you and everybody in NY is the same but there is quite a few bad apples that give a bad name to the fan base.

D-Leethal
10-18-2013, 04:25 PM
Ehhh not trying to start an argument but it's more due to the reputation the city and it's inhabitants have build. Not saying you and everybody in NY is the same but there is quite a few bad apples that give a bad name to the fan base.

Don't hate us because we live the fast life homie.

Goose17
10-18-2013, 04:33 PM
I honestly think that's about right for him.

tredigs
10-18-2013, 04:38 PM
If ESPN is such a joke (mostly, it is), then why create threads playing it up by worrying about what they say? Stop freaking out and enjoy the fact that you think you'll have the last laugh in their projections.

mdm692
10-18-2013, 04:52 PM
Don't hate us because we live the fast life homie.

And there's the answer. Good day ;).

Guppyfighter
10-18-2013, 04:56 PM
I'd have Melo at 10 or 12. That range.

chitownredbulls
10-18-2013, 05:06 PM
Haha...melo ain't that good bro....you so mad lol

Avenged
10-18-2013, 05:42 PM
Melo had a good season. Let's be fair. 15 is too low but who cares honestly. Obviously ESPN knew what they were doing when making these rankings.

ThuglifeJ
10-18-2013, 05:49 PM
Seems about right to me. I think he's top 5 when it comes to talent, but unfortunately he's never been able to maximize his god given ability.

+

NYSpirit1
10-18-2013, 06:31 PM
Espn is a joke. Kobe 25th ? Melo 15th? K love who never been in playoff missed a lot of games is ahead of Melo. Rose who is great but didn't play the entire year is ahead of Melo. Toney Parker lol, Paul Geroge ahead of Melo lol, this goes on and On but I can imagine espn is this dumb. If u put the 2 biggest stars from the 2 biggest markets extra low there will be alot of buzz from angry fans. Knicks 37 wins according to the expert computer system by espn. So why does vegas have knicks at 49.5 ???? because vegas actually has to pay there money to u if u win. Espn just talks doesn't back anything up

ESPN is the the worst sports news outlet in the industry today. I prefer CBS Sports, Yahoo and just about anything else. They do things for attention and don't have reputable journalism. It's pathetic.

How you can tell me that Derrick Rose and Kevin Love being out all year as well as MARC GASOL making the top 10. And Paul George, because of one Conference Finals run, is better, is unfathomable.

It's pathetic. They did this for attention, as they did with Kobe at #25.

NYSpirit1
10-18-2013, 06:36 PM
In addition to that, ESPN is obsessed with hype machine Blake Griffin, who is one of the most overhyped players in the NBA. He hasn't developed a semblance of a game besides jumping over people, hasn't developed a jumper, free throws or a post game. His post game is awkward looking. He is not number #14.

Why do they even come out with this ****? The NBA writers are horrendous. What did Steph Curry catapult himself from like #100 last year to top 5 this year because of a good second half? HE'S NEVER MADE AN ALL-STAR TEAM. And Paul George is nice, I'd say top 25 he earned, but being ranked that high after one all-star season and averaging 17 points a game is asinine. Whatever, though. That's ESPN for you.

Guppyfighter
10-18-2013, 06:58 PM
ESPN's rankings are bad, but so was this diatribe by the guy above me.

tredigs
10-18-2013, 06:59 PM
ESPN's rankings are bad, but so was this diatribe by the guy above me.

I was trying to figure out how to phrase it without getting banned. I'll just agree with this.

mjm07
10-18-2013, 07:02 PM
Definitely should not be ranked #15. Top 5 talent, as others have mentioned, but hasn't done much with any organization. Low end Superstar.

nycericanguy
10-18-2013, 07:17 PM
Definitely should not be ranked #15. Top 5 talent, as others have mentioned, but hasn't done much with any organization. Low end Superstar.

He's had his teams at 50+ wins years in and year out with no legit #2. He's no Lebron though.

But heck it even took Lebron until his 9th season and until he teamed up with 2 other superstars before he won a chip. It took Dirk 13 years and career playoff runs from Terry & Marion to win a chip. I just think Melo is held to too high a standard. I would love to see what Melo could do with someone like Bosh at least. Hopefully Bargs can return to form and at least be somewhat close this year.

Guppyfighter
10-18-2013, 07:19 PM
He's had his teams at 50+ wins years in and year out with no legit #2. He's no Lebron though.

But heck it even took Lebron until his 9th season and until he teamed up with 2 other superstars before he won a chip. It took Dirk 13 years and career playoff runs from Terry & Marion to win a chip. I just think Melo is held to too high a standard. I would love to see what Melo could do with someone like Bosh at least. Hopefully Bargs can return to form and at least be somewhat close this year.

Melo is a great player, but Dirk and Lebron have been top five players for nearly ever. Dirk only leaving that area after his championship. Melo has never been a top five player.

Kashmir13579
10-18-2013, 07:21 PM
Well, I think at the very least people should acknowledge why Knicks fans / New Yorkers claim there is a negative stigma towards us in the eyes of the general public/national media. It ain't just paranoia or narcissism - its **** like this, the 37 win prediction, and taking an article over a month old and plastering it all over the TV broadcasts and airwaves while presenting it as yesterdays news just to talk down the Knicks.
Chris Smith... :worthy:

Kashmir13579
10-18-2013, 07:23 PM
'Melo was easily top 10 last year. There is no debate, really.

ESPN is a Disney company.

Guppyfighter
10-18-2013, 07:41 PM
'Melo was easily top 10 last year. There is no debate, really.

ESPN is a Disney company.

It's not that easy.

But I'd agree he is in the 9-12 range.

ManRam
10-18-2013, 07:43 PM
It's a little low in my opinion, by a few spots...but that's all this is: opinions. If they feel he's going to regress/others are going to overcome him, well, so be it. He can either prove them right or wrong. I don't get why people get their panties in such a bunch about things like this that don't at all matter.

Kashmir13579
10-18-2013, 07:49 PM
It's not that easy.

But I'd agree he is in the 9-12 range.

Its easy. You're just failing to acknowledge the year he had.

Jamiecballer
10-18-2013, 07:51 PM
It's a little low in my opinion, by a few spots...but that's all this is: opinions. If they feel he's going to regress/others are going to overcome him, well, so be it. He can either prove them right or wrong. I don't get why people get their panties in such a bunch about things like this that don't at all matter.
New York and Toronto are similar in that they always feel like they are being disrespected.

Kashmir13579
10-18-2013, 07:53 PM
Its not even a conversation worth having. If you're real, you know 'Melo cracked the top ten this year. If not, you're either ignorant or can't give NYK and their players proper due.

Jamiecballer
10-18-2013, 07:54 PM
Its not even a conversation worth having. If you're real, you know 'Melo cracked the top ten this year. If not, you're either ignorant or can't give NYK and their players proper due.
then why on earth are you having it with yourself

Guppyfighter
10-18-2013, 08:03 PM
Its easy. You're just failing to acknowledge the year he had.

This is why Knicks fans get a ton of **** on this site. You are failing to acknowledge the years others had.

tredigs
10-18-2013, 08:08 PM
Its not even a conversation worth having. If you're real, you know 'Melo cracked the top ten this year. If not, you're either ignorant or can't give NYK and their players proper due.
Out of curiosity, what's your take on 'Melo not cracking the top 30 in RAPM (Lebron, CP3, Durant, Duncan, M Gasol were top 5) or top 100 in Wins Produced, top 10 in Win Shares, etc.

Statistically all I can think of would be PPG, Usage% and - mostly out of a result of these two stats - PER, where he was top 10.

I'll take the unpopular opinion and say it's probably a conversation worth having as to why so many objective stats that all have LBJ/KD/CP3 in the top 3 don't have Melo top 10.

ManRam
10-18-2013, 08:14 PM
New York and Toronto are similar in that they always feel like they are being disrespected.

It's silly for Knicks fans to feel that way.

Beltrans Mole
10-18-2013, 08:19 PM
This is why Knicks fans get a ton of **** on this site. You are failing to acknowledge the years others had.

Melo got an MVP vote last year, didn't he? With Lebron being as dominant as he was, the fact that Melo got even one vote shows you how strong of a season Melo had. You can say others had great seasons as well, but to deny Melo his props on last season is just trying to get a rise out of Knicks fans who too often will lose their cool.

ManRam
10-18-2013, 08:23 PM
Melo got an MVP vote last year, didn't he? With Lebron being as dominant as he was, the fact that Melo got even one vote shows you how strong of a season Melo had. You can say others had great seasons as well, but to deny Melo his props on last season is just trying to get a rise out of Knicks fans who too often will lose their cool.

Gary Washburn is an idiot...that's why Melo got a vote.

And again, this isn't based on last year, it's based on how they think these guys will rank this upcoming season.

WARRIORS@GR
10-18-2013, 08:26 PM
Melo got an MVP vote last year, didn't he? With Lebron being as dominant as he was, the fact that Melo got even one vote shows you how strong of a season Melo had. You can say others had great seasons as well, but to deny Melo his props on last season is just trying to get a rise out of Knicks fans who too often will lose their cool.
That's not a very legit argument.Voting Melo for MVP over Lebron last year is ridiculous,and shows the guy who did it does not deserve to have a vote.
I will take impact and stats over a random vote of an idiot.
That being said,i think Melo was between 7-12 last year.

Mr.SmackYoMama
10-18-2013, 08:37 PM
Then don't watch.

Beltrans Mole
10-18-2013, 08:49 PM
That's not a very legit argument.Voting Melo for MVP over Lebron last year is ridiculous,and shows the guy who did it does not deserve to have a vote.
I will take impact and stats over a random vote of an idiot.
That being said,i think Melo was between 7-12 last year.

You think I'm saying Melo deserved MVP last year?? Absolutely not. My point is that even though Melo got a vote by an idiot, he was generally considered number 2 or 3 in the MVP all year...how can someone who was in that category and also won the scoring title last year be voted so low? Even if it's projecting for 2014? I get that ESPN is a joke and I shouldn't take them seriously, but it pisses me off coming here and seeing people legitimately thinking Melo isn't a top-10 player...he's in the top-5 for me, call me a homer.

tredigs
10-18-2013, 08:56 PM
You think I'm saying Melo deserved MVP last year?? Absolutely not. My point is that even though Melo got a vote by an idiot, he was generally considered number 2 or 3 in the MVP all year...how can someone who was in that category and also won the scoring title last year be voted so low? Even if it's projecting for 2014? I get that ESPN is a joke and I shouldn't take them seriously, but it pisses me off coming here and seeing people legitimately thinking Melo isn't a top-10 player...he's in the top-5 for me, call me a homer.

Because he's probably the most one dimensional of any player in that top 10 conversation, and not the best at that one dimension. Hence all the stats I showed that have LBJ/KD/Cp3 top 3 that don't have Melo top 10. It's pretty fair to have Melo outside your top 10, even if he scores a lot and plays in New York.

Beltrans Mole
10-18-2013, 09:03 PM
Because he's probably the most one dimensional of any player in that top 10 conversation, and not the best at that one dimension. Hence all the stats I showed that have LBJ/KD/Cp3 top 3 that don't have Melo top 10. It's pretty fair to have Melo outside your top 10, even if he scores a lot and plays in New York.

I guess we'll agree to disagree. Melo is a top-10 player, and stats are not the end all be all in basketball. Call me a stubborn, biased NY fan I really don't care.

tredigs
10-18-2013, 09:07 PM
I guess we'll agree to disagree. Melo is a top-10 player, and stats are not the end all be all in basketball. Call me a stubborn, biased NY fan I really don't care.

He's a top ten name and most other players along with most casual fans would consider him top 10. That much I'll say. Personally I'd rather build around quite a few other players if I'm trying to win a ship this year, but no problem in agreeing to disagree.

Guppyfighter
10-18-2013, 09:28 PM
I believe this Knicks team is the best team possibly for Melo's style. Elite offensive rebounding and three point shooters for space. We'll see how it goes.

Minimal
10-18-2013, 09:34 PM
These ranking are utter garbage.
Wade at 18? Duncan at 16? Melo at 15? WTF are they thinking?
How is overrated Paul George over them all?

sep11ie
10-18-2013, 09:46 PM
Knicks fans will be agreeing with this after he leaves in Free Agency.

Hellcrooner
10-18-2013, 10:30 PM
Lol, they want to créate a fuss with big market fans in order to get clicks into the web.

And you are all biting into it.

btw they are doing ALL KIND of idiotic things.
When exactly did Marc G become a top 10 player? ( I say somwhere 18-25 would be accurate) not to even get into when did he become better than his brother ....

east fb knicks
10-18-2013, 10:36 PM
just one question what has cp3 done in his career he's never been out of the 2nd round while melo almost made the finals

tredigs
10-18-2013, 10:37 PM
Lol, they want to créate a fuss with big market fans in order to get clicks into the web.

And you are all biting into it.

btw they are doing ALL KIND of idiotic things.
When exactly did Marc G become a top 10 player? ( I say somwhere 18-25 would be accurate) not to even get into when did he become better than his brother ....
When he entered his prime and his passing + foul shooting went from meh to near the top at his position, along with his paint protection going from good to top 5 in the game. I wouldn't call him top 10, but top 15 is fair.

mjm07
10-18-2013, 10:39 PM
He's had his teams at 50+ wins years in and year out with no legit #2. He's no Lebron though.

But heck it even took Lebron until his 9th season and until he teamed up with 2 other superstars before he won a chip. It took Dirk 13 years and career playoff runs from Terry & Marion to win a chip. I just think Melo is held to too high a standard. I would love to see what Melo could do with someone like Bosh at least. Hopefully Bargs can return to form and at least be somewhat close this year.

I'd like to see that as well. When media/haters say he's not a superstar, or what have you, all Melo fans say he's top 5, he's top 5. Now he shouldn't held to a higher standard when everyone can agree he's a top 5 talent? Dont agree with you there.

tredigs
10-18-2013, 10:39 PM
just one question what has cp3 done in his career he's never been out of the 2nd round while melo almost made the finals

Congrats to those teams?

NYKNYGNYY
10-18-2013, 10:47 PM
Kobe out of the top 12ih is understand coming odf a injury i understand but after seeing him at 25 I was like meh credibiltys kinds bad for the rest. But melo at 15...i dont care bout the rest of the list, but everyone has there own opinion

MELO 15
10-18-2013, 11:15 PM
They should have a poll for the players, the guys who actually play the game and wont be judging off of stupid stats. Players know who the real players in this game is. And Id put money that Melo would be rated top 5 to 7 players in the game. They have NFL players do it, why not the NBA.

Guppyfighter
10-18-2013, 11:18 PM
If this isn't based on last year and based on next years production I can certainly see why someone would be skeptical of Kobe's production.

SLY WILLIAMS
10-19-2013, 12:31 PM
Melo is a top 10 NBA player (current not all time) but he may also be a top 10 disliked player and that may skew peoples ratings of him.

ILLUSIONIST^248
10-19-2013, 12:44 PM
'Melo was easily top 10 last year. There is no debate, really.

ESPN is a Disney company.

Exactly, Melo is def top 10. Heat fans will come in here to discredit him, but Melo is a superstar.

mjqusoldier
10-19-2013, 01:13 PM
Melo is top 5. Nobody 6 ft 8 can play inside and out like Melo with a great handle and a great 3 pt shot. Lebron Durant and Kobe are the only guys I can understand ahead of him.

D-Leethal
10-19-2013, 01:27 PM
It's silly for Knicks fans to feel that way.

Yep, because projecting the Knicks at 37 wins, Melo who was 3rd in MVP voting as the 15th best player in the league, and taking a quote from an article written 6 weeks ago and blasting it all over the airwaves as yesterdays news just to put down the Knicks don't seem a little fishy to you?

beasted86
10-19-2013, 01:31 PM
Lol, they want to créate a fuss with big market fans in order to get clicks into the web.

And you are all biting into it.

btw they are doing ALL KIND of idiotic things.
When exactly did Marc G become a top 10 player? ( I say somwhere 18-25 would be accurate) not to even get into when did he become better than his brother ....

Somebody gets it. I haven't clicked on the rankings for this very reason. It is a waste of time.

Jamiecballer
10-19-2013, 02:04 PM
Yep, because projecting the Knicks at 37 wins, Melo who was 3rd in MVP voting as the 15th best player in the league, and taking a quote from an article written 6 weeks ago and blasting it all over the airwaves as yesterdays news just to put down the Knicks don't seem a little fishy to you?

the only thing you have a legit beef with is the quoting of the article from 6 weeks ago. the rest is reasonable, perhaps a little harsh but totally reasonable.

Jamiecballer
10-19-2013, 02:05 PM
Somebody gets it. I haven't clicked on the rankings for this very reason. It is a waste of time.

wouldn't that make you an example of why it would be stupid for ESPN to be operating this way? sheesh. some people just cannot handle the truth about their teams/players.

nycericanguy
10-19-2013, 02:16 PM
I'd like to see that as well. When media/haters say he's not a superstar, or what have you, all Melo fans say he's top 5, he's top 5. Now he shouldn't held to a higher standard when everyone can agree he's a top 5 talent? Dont agree with you there.

I think he's had top 5 seasons, like last year... but I don;t think he's a top 5 player overall when guys like Rose are healthy. He's top 10 though for his career. Well, I shouldn't say he's not top 5 period, I just mean it's definitely debatable when Dirk, Rose, Love, howard..etc... are healthy and producing.

I'm ok with him being held to a high standard, but a lot of people talk about him as if he's Rudy Gay or something on this site.

Imagine Melo with a guy like Bosh instead of say, JR. That team would do serious damage, unfortunately the best Melo has ever had has been an injured Amare, a declined Billups, and 1 full year of a declined Iverson who was a horrible fit anyway next to Melo.

It seems like the other stars all have so much more.

Durant has WB, and had Harden too.

CP3 has Blake

Kobe has always had another superstar

Duncan has parker and Manu

even Harden already got his 2nd star...lol

And of course we all know all the help LBJ has now.

Kashmir13579
10-19-2013, 02:38 PM
Out of curiosity, what's your take on 'Melo not cracking the top 30 in RAPM (Lebron, CP3, Durant, Duncan, M Gasol were top 5) or top 100 in Wins Produced, top 10 in Win Shares, etc.

Statistically all I can think of would be PPG, Usage% and - mostly out of a result of these two stats - PER, where he was top 10.

I'll take the unpopular opinion and say it's probably a conversation worth having as to why so many objective stats that all have LBJ/KD/CP3 in the top 3 don't have Melo top 10.
What is my take on RAPM? Oh, tredigs... I'll come to you when i need every rotation player in the NBA laid out in alphabetical or numerical order. You may come of some use yet.

D-Leethal
10-19-2013, 02:43 PM
the only thing you have a legit beef with is the quoting of the article from 6 weeks ago. the rest is reasonable, perhaps a little harsh but totally reasonable.

It seems to me 99% of the dudes in this thread agree its completely unreasonable.

17 less wins than last year? After getting 54 with a TON of injuries to every starter and key reserves?

The man who was 3rd in MVP voting is the 15th best player in the NBA? Bonafide best player on a 54 win 2 seed? Has anything like that ever happened in the NBA? I think that has to be a first...

Thats reasonable to you?

nycericanguy
10-19-2013, 02:46 PM
It seems to me 99% of the dudes in this thread agree its completely unreasonable.

17 less wins than last year? After getting 54 with a TON of injuries to every starter and key reserves?

The man who was 3rd in MVP voting is the 15th best player in the NBA? Bonafide best player on a 54 win 2 seed? Has anything like that ever happened in the NBA? I think that has to be a first...

Thats reasonable to you?

He's a TOR fan that is still mad about the Bargs trade...

Jamiecballer
10-19-2013, 03:13 PM
It seems to me 99% of the dudes in this thread agree its completely unreasonable.

17 less wins than last year? After getting 54 with a TON of injuries to every starter and key reserves?

The man who was 3rd in MVP voting is the 15th best player in the NBA? Bonafide best player on a 54 win 2 seed? Has anything like that ever happened in the NBA? I think that has to be a first...

Thats reasonable to you?

no. 17 less wins is way too much. but expecting the team to take a significant step back? not unreasonable for the reasons they outlined, the same ones i presented in your forum that got me chased out of there a month or so ago.

as for the MVP vote, he had a hell of a season no doubt but he sure as heck wasn't the 3rd best player in the league last season. he plays in a huge market, for a resurgent team and that garners lots of attention. remember, 54 wins is a very good season, it's not a great season, so being the top player shouldn't guarantee you MVP consideration.

Jamiecballer
10-19-2013, 03:14 PM
He's a TOR fan that is still mad about the Bargs trade...

you kill me dude. obviously if i have such a strong dislike for Bargnani as a player i would be over the moon that he's going to be someone else's disappointment.

bucketss
10-19-2013, 03:18 PM
He's a TOR fan that is still mad about the Bargs trade...

yeah we gonna miss that primo pasta commercial, always provided some laughs for us:(

Goose17
10-19-2013, 03:20 PM
I'm ok with him being held to a high standard, but a lot of people talk about him as if he's Rudy Gay or something on this site.


He's not as bad as Gay, but he's closer to that level than he is to Lebron's. And that's not a dig. He's better than Gay, much better. But he's so inferior to Lebron that comparing to Gay is fairer than comparing him to Lebron.




Imagine Melo with a guy like Bosh instead of say, JR. That team would do serious damage, unfortunately the best Melo has ever had has been an injured Amare, a declined Billups, and 1 full year of a declined Iverson who was a horrible fit anyway next to Melo.

I don't like J.R but you're just making excuses, Melo has had a defensive player of the year and a 6th man of the year on his team. Both within the last two seasons. Plus some decent role players like Felton and Shump.

Sure they could do better and could have better depth, but sharing the court with the 2011-12 DPOY and the 2012-13 6th Man of the Year isn't exactly the worst situation for a so called "star" to be in.

NYSpirit1
10-19-2013, 03:23 PM
Whoever believes that Paul George is better than Carmelo Anthony is an idiot.

George doesn't nearly have the offensive game that Anthony does and cannot take over a game like Melo does. The Pacers won less games in the regular season and beat an injured Knicks squad and suddenly they are world beaters - wow.

D-Leethal
10-19-2013, 03:24 PM
no. 17 less wins is way too much. but expecting the team to take a significant step back? not unreasonable for the reasons they outlined, the same ones i presented in your forum that got me chased out of there a month or so ago.

as for the MVP vote, he had a hell of a season no doubt but he sure as heck wasn't the 3rd best player in the league last season. he plays in a huge market, for a resurgent team and that garners lots of attention. remember, 54 wins is a very good season, it's not a great season, so being the top player shouldn't guarantee you MVP consideration.

When you are top 3 in MVP voting, you are a top 10 player. I'm not arguing he was the third best player in the league. I'm arguing that 15 is not reasonable no matter how you slice it.

Why would we have a significant step back? And even if we did, 5-6 wins fine, 17 less wins is completely unreasonable.

Considering the plethora of long term injuries we faced last year to every starter and key reserves, its easier to argue we could have come close to 60 wins last year than "we got lucky" en route to 54. Either way, 37 is a complete and utter joke.

You seem to acknowledge this out of one side of your mouth and say its reasonable out of the other.

SLY WILLIAMS
10-19-2013, 03:27 PM
Its a combination of Knicks dislike and Melo dislike. I do not say NY dislike because the Rangers and Giants do not usually get the same intense dislike. People like and dislike who they choose. Sometimes there are good valid reasons for the dislike. Sometimes there are not. In either case if Melo's stats were put in a blind survey I think he would be ranked better than 15. I think production wise he is a top 3-10 player when no dislike is figured in to the equation.

nycericanguy
10-19-2013, 03:28 PM
He's not as bad as Gay, but he's closer to that level than he is to Lebron's. And that's not a dig. He's better than Gay, much better. But he's so inferior to Lebron that comparing to Gay is fairer than comparing him to Lebron.




I don't like J.R but you're just making excuses, Melo has had a defensive player of the year and a 6th man of the year on his team. Both within the last two seasons. Plus some decent role players like Felton and Shump.

Sure they could do better and could have better depth, but sharing the court with the 2011-12 DPOY and the 2012-13 6th Man of the Year isn't exactly the worst situation for a so called "star" to be in.

Jamal CRawford is also a 6 MOY.. that's just an award man, given out by the same guys that said Curry wasn't an all star. I don't put any weight to that.

JR played 34mpg... he was basically a starter. he shot 42%, as did Felton & Shump... that's not help, it's just not. You can't seriously even begin to compare him to the support other stars have.

And I love Tyson, but he's a defender, he's not someone who's going to take the pressure off Melo in the playoffs when scoring is much harder against elite defenses. I mean he has a 6ppg career scoring average.

There's no "excuses" there... Even LBJ couldn't do it w/o a 2nd star... heck he needed TWO other stars... why should Melo have to do it alone? Love alone can't even get his team in the CONVERSATION for a playoff spot, yet he gets ranked ahead?

D-Leethal
10-19-2013, 03:29 PM
He's not as bad as Gay, but he's closer to that level than he is to Lebron's. And that's not a dig. He's better than Gay, much better. But he's so inferior to Lebron that comparing to Gay is fairer than comparing him to Lebron.




I don't like J.R but you're just making excuses, Melo has had a defensive player of the year and a 6th man of the year on his team. Both within the last two seasons. Plus some decent role players like Felton and Shump.

Sure they could do better and could have better depth, but sharing the court with the 2011-12 DPOY and the 2012-13 6th Man of the Year isn't exactly the worst situation for a so called "star" to be in.

LeBron had tremendous defense/defenders behind him in Cleveland too - that only gets you so far. You need multiple legitimate scoring options. Everyone does. Melo doesn't have them. He has a great bench player and a great defender at the C spot. Compared to the other superstars he gets compared to - he has far and away the least amount of help.

Melo is not on a LeBron or KD level, and he doesn't have anywhere near LeBron or KD help, yet people expect him to somehow make the ECF/Finals or he is a failure/scrub? Everyone talks junk like Melo is not top 10 player yet place expectations on him to do things that top 5 players aren't able to do?

nycericanguy
10-19-2013, 03:31 PM
LeBron had tremendous defense/defenders behind him in Cleveland too - that only gets you so far. You need multiple legitimate scoring options. Everyone does. Melo doesn't have them. He has a great bench player and a great defender at the C spot. Compared to the other superstars he gets compared to - he has far and away the least amount of help.

Melo is not on a LeBron or KD level, and he doesn't have anywhere near LeBron or KD help, yet people expect him to somehow make the ECF/Finals or he is a failure/scrub? Everyone talks junk like Melo is not top 10 player yet place expectations on him to do things that top 5 players aren't able to do?

well said.

nycericanguy
10-19-2013, 03:32 PM
you kill me dude. obviously if i have such a strong dislike for Bargnani as a player i would be over the moon that he's going to be someone else's disappointment.

You literally have about 500 posts about how bad the Knicks and Bargs are since the trade...

Let it go man... I don't know what your deal is, but you have one of the weirdest obsessions with NY & Bargs that I have ever seen on this site. You've even started posting about NY & Bargs in the TOR forum and even your own fans disagree with you...lol!

tredigs
10-19-2013, 03:50 PM
What is my take on RAPM? Oh, tredigs... I'll come to you when i need every rotation player in the NBA laid out in alphabetical or numerical order. You may come of some use yet.

Still struggling with the concept of putting context to stats and trying to understand why they say what they do? It's OK to be ignorant (who isn't at different aspects of the game and evaluating it?), but I'd recommend against being the defensive/attacking type. It's an ugly shade of dumb.

Jamiecballer
10-19-2013, 03:53 PM
When you are top 3 in MVP voting, you are a top 10 player. I'm not arguing he was the third best player in the league. I'm arguing that 15 is not reasonable no matter how you slice it.
and that's fine that you disagree. i don't think it's unreasonable considering the way he plays the game.

Why would we have a significant step back? And even if we did, 5-6 wins fine, 17 less wins is completely unreasonable.
did you get a chance to read the writeup or did you just see red as soon as you saw 37? i ask because the reasons they gave are the same reasons i predicted 45 wins or so. i don't see why i should have to re-iterate when it seems like you aren't likely to actually read it.

Considering the plethora of long term injuries we faced last year to every starter and key reserves, its easier to argue we could have come close to 60 wins last year than "we got lucky" en route to 54. Either way, 37 is a complete and utter joke.
shumpert i think will end up being a good player, last year i don't think you were hurt by his absence much. who else? stoudemire? he's done. Melo missed 15, Chandler 16. those hurt i will grant you that. but you guys also got an out of this world team performance shooting the 3. i don't think that's likely to repeat itself.

You seem to acknowledge this out of one side of your mouth and say its reasonable out of the other.
i said nothing of the sort. i said he had a great year, for a team that had a surprisingly good year.

Jamiecballer
10-19-2013, 03:55 PM
You literally have about 500 posts about how bad the Knicks and Bargs are since the trade...

Let it go man... I don't know what your deal is, but you have one of the weirdest obsessions with NY & Bargs that I have ever seen on this site. You've even started posting about NY & Bargs in the TOR forum and even your own fans disagree with you...lol!

maybe you missed the part where the (2) people who disagreed with me still had the knicks winning fewer games. :p

MELO 15
10-19-2013, 04:44 PM
Bottom line, ask the players to rank them, and see where Melo ranks. I guarantee u that he ranks top 5 to 7 if the players vote, because the players are not looking at stats like PAR and other stupid ones like that, they would be basing it on what happens on the court. Wich is how people should be basing it.

MELO 15
10-19-2013, 04:52 PM
Back when basketball was a physical sport and it was real, not the ticky tacky crap that goes on now, people did not concentrate on stats during the game, they concentrated on the actual game its self. Everyone new that MJ was the best closer in the game, but if u were to look at the stats u probably wouldn't have thought so, because he missed a lot. Barkley was a bad defender in the league but is one of the top 50 and is a hall of famer and might I add has not won a chip. This is all politics at the end of the day, and people seem to not like Melo, especially espn.

D-Leethal
10-19-2013, 05:36 PM
and that's fine that you disagree. i don't think it's unreasonable considering the way he plays the game.

did you get a chance to read the writeup or did you just see red as soon as you saw 37? i ask because the reasons they gave are the same reasons i predicted 45 wins or so. i don't see why i should have to re-iterate when it seems like you aren't likely to actually read it.[quote]

Why would I read the write up?

[quote]shumpert i think will end up being a good player, last year i don't think you were hurt by his absence much. who else? stoudemire? he's done. Melo missed 15, Chandler 16. those hurt i will grant you that. but you guys also got an out of this world team performance shooting the 3. i don't think that's likely to repeat itself.

What makes you think we didn't miss our defensive stopper and starting SG? Care to provide any reasoning? Stoudemire was balling while he was back. There is really no denying that, he was a hyper-efficient 14ppg in less than 25 mpg and he was crucial to us staying afloat when Melo went down. And Felton went down for a month and our offense fell in the toilet because we had no other PG that could get into the paint and make plays.

Felton missed 14.
STAT missed 52.
Melo missed 16.
Tyson missed 16.
Shump missed 37.

Few teams hit the injury bug worse than us last year yet everyone states we were lucky to get to where we were at. If anything we should have been closer to 60.


i said nothing of the sort. i said he had a great year, for a team that had a surprisingly good year.


no. 17 less wins is way too much.

Nothing of the sort?

tredigs
10-19-2013, 05:42 PM
Bottom line, ask the players to rank them, and see where Melo ranks. I guarantee u that he ranks top 5 to 7 if the players vote, because the players are not looking at stats like PAR and other stupid ones like that, they would be basing it on what happens on the court. Wich is how people should be basing it.

Most players are stupid. I thought this was open knowledge. That's why great coaching is so crucial to success, and why MJ, Magic, Shaq (and countless others) are such a laughing stock when they give their opinions. And those are the chosen ones who supposedly have the highest bbiq (and obviously do in on-court aspects). But I agree with you, most players would definitely rank Melo top 10, and not just because of his "PAR".

Guppyfighter
10-19-2013, 05:51 PM
When you are top 3 in MVP voting, you are a top 10 player. I'm not arguing he was the third best player in the league. I'm arguing that 15 is not reasonable no matter how you slice it.

Why would we have a significant step back? And even if we did, 5-6 wins fine, 17 less wins is completely unreasonable.

Considering the plethora of long term injuries we faced last year to every starter and key reserves, its easier to argue we could have come close to 60 wins last year than "we got lucky" en route to 54. Either way, 37 is a complete and utter joke.

You seem to acknowledge this out of one side of your mouth and say its reasonable out of the other.

Dude...

Chronz
10-19-2013, 05:53 PM
I really hope Blake lives up to the expectation

Jamiecballer
10-19-2013, 08:02 PM
Why would I read the write up?
well then you've got no right to complain if you haven't even bothered to read why they predicted 37.


What makes you think we didn't miss our defensive stopper and starting SG? Care to provide any reasoning?
because he's not nearly as good as you guys think he is - yet. you guys thrived on a ridiculous 3 point game and the people who replaced him are better shooters than he is and contributed a fair bit to that effectiveness.

Stoudemire was balling while he was back.There is really no denying that, he was a hyper-efficient 14ppg in less than 25 mpg and he was crucial to us staying afloat when Melo went down.
that's definitely true but only relevant if you feel like you are ever going to get a consistently healthy Amare again and i do not.


And Felton went down for a month and our offense fell in the toilet because we had no other PG that could get into the paint and make plays.
if you consider scoring 97 per game in his absence compared to the 100 per game you scored for the season then i guess you are right.


Nothing of the sort?
no idea where you are going here. i clearly said that predicting 17 less wins was crazy.

D-Leethal
10-20-2013, 12:29 PM
Dude...

Can you name me one dude who was NOT deemed a top 10 player after being top 3 in MVP voting?

D-Leethal
10-20-2013, 12:39 PM
well then you've got no right to complain if you haven't even bothered to read why they predicted 37.

Sure I do. No matter what reasons they have, they can not correlate to 17 less wins. You said as much yourself yet keep saying its reasonable (which brings me to my last quote).


because he's not nearly as good as you guys think he is - yet. you guys thrived on a ridiculous 3 point game and the people who replaced him are better shooters than he is and contributed a fair bit to that effectiveness.

Nobody is calling him an all star. He is a KEY piece to our team, he is our lockdown defensive specialist, he is a very good 3 point shooter for us. His presence was missed big time despite Kidd shooting like 60% from 3 to start the season. He brings things to this team nobody else does - you can't act like him missing half the season was NBD. Shump shoots 40% from deep, he would contribute big time to that effectiveness AND THAN SOME because of his defensive prowess.


that's definitely true but only relevant if you feel like you are ever going to get a consistently healthy Amare again and i do not.

Actually whether or not we get a consistent healthy Amare again is completely irrelevant to whether or not we didn't have him for 52 combined games last season.


if you consider scoring 97 per game in his absence compared to the 100 per game you scored for the season then i guess you are right.

It actually is. In simple PPG average, thats the difference between 11th and 17th. Thats not a big hit to you? I am not looking up the stats but I'm sure all this forums favorite offensive efficiency ratings fell in the toilet too. It was obvious to anyone we missed him out there, even Felton's biggest haters in the Knicks forum were clamoring for him to come back.



no idea where you are going here. i clearly said that predicting 17 less wins was crazy.

After you first said it was reasonable. Hence, talking out of both sides of your mouth, agreeing its unreasonable, than stating its reasonable.

There is no logical reasoning to suggest we didn't get murdered with injuries last year, more than all but a few teams in this league, yet still won 54 games.....yet were supposed to feel that we "got lucky" en route to 54, and that were about to take a 17-win step back?

Even a minor "step back" in terms of talent, shooting or whatever you want to convince yourself we took a step back in, if we get ANY love from the injury bug gods this season it will be a major improvement from the injury bug we got hit with last year than hitting 54 or dare I say even more is a very attainable goal and seems to line up with simple logic.

Guppyfighter
10-20-2013, 01:32 PM
Can you name me one dude who was NOT deemed a top 10 player after being top 3 in MVP voting?

Melo.

Seriously though, that argument... Jeez, dude. I thought we were on this forum to discuss basketball, not jerk off narratives. Which is what MVP voting is

D-Leethal
10-20-2013, 01:34 PM
Melo.

Seriously though, that argument... Jeez, dude. I thought we were on this forum to discuss basketball, not jerk off narratives. Which is what MVP voting is

Yep, didn't think you could...

Guppyfighter
10-20-2013, 01:37 PM
Didn't think you could...

Not with you. You pretend like you want to engage in higher level conversation about basketball, but what it usually boils down to is you arguing your ignorance about stats and you saying why Melo is top five and complaining when people point out all his pitfalls which make him not top five.

And this week, you have been pretending to think you know how front offices use statistics. And you posit the most ridiculous things.

D-Leethal
10-20-2013, 01:40 PM
And btw, I'm always here to talk basketball, not sure I've ever heard an argument come out of your mouth that wasn't formed solely on statistical basis.

And even the biggest Melo haters will heed to the fact that he was definitely a top 10 player last season.

And until you can go find me another dude who was voted top 3 in MVP, who was not a top 10 player, my original stance still holds true.

Guppyfighter
10-20-2013, 01:41 PM
And btw, I'm always here to talk basketball, not sure I've ever heard an argument come out of your mouth that wasn't formed solely on statistical basis.

And even the biggest Melo haters will heed to the fact that he was definitely a top 10 player last season.

And until you can go find me another dude who was voted top 3 in MVP, who was not a top 10 player, my original stance still holds true.

I am not sure I have ever heard an argument from you based in reality.

He's in my 9-15 range. Now, you can try to prove Melo is top 10. That's fine. Otherwise, your making the argument because you are a Knicks fan.

D-Leethal
10-20-2013, 01:42 PM
Not with you. You pretend like you want to engage in higher level conversation about basketball, but what it usually boils down to is you arguing your ignorance about stats and you saying why Melo is top five and complaining when people point out all his pitfalls which make him not top five.

And this week, you have been pretending to think you know how front offices use statistics. And you posit the most ridiculous things.

I didn't say top 5, I said top 10, but that main point was that its definitely nowhere near 15.

Its pretty much simple logic and common sense - I was giving the FO's in the NBA the benefit of the doubt that they indeed use those two things on that one.

And I have no problem with the stats, I have a problem with the way people like you draw flawed conclusions devoid of context using them.

Guppyfighter
10-20-2013, 01:48 PM
I didn't say top 5, I said top 10, but that main point was that its definitely nowhere near 15.

Its pretty much simple logic and common sense - I was giving the FO's in the NBA the benefit of the doubt that they indeed use those two things on that one.

And I have no problem with the stats, I have a problem with the way people like you draw flawed conclusions devoid of context using them.


Pot, Kettle. You obviously think Melo is top ten, which must mean you think there is some statistic to suggest that. Why do you think that particular statistic matters? And don't tell me it is because of his great intangibles, because if we are going off ******** narratives, I'd say Melo ranks pretty low in being able to lead his team to a championship.

Now, you can try to prove these conclusions are false. Otherwise, once again, you are arguing against facts. If something in math is wrong, you can show it. That's the great thing about math.

Kashmir13579
10-20-2013, 01:51 PM
Still struggling with the concept of putting context to stats and trying to understand why they say what they do? It's OK to be ignorant (who isn't at different aspects of the game and evaluating it?), but I'd recommend against being the defensive/attacking type. It's an ugly shade of dumb.

lmfao, coming from a guy who routinely attacks people behind the shield of cover-all stats he didn't create and probably doesn't fully understand, thats cute. And get it straight, i don't lack statistical context, and i'm not attacking stats, i'm attacking you - you and your smart-allicky nothings of posts that you attempt to pass off as knowledge. At the end of the day, you can be as persnickety or well-phrased as you like, it doesn't mean you have an ounce of basketball intuition. "Ugly shade of dumb" lol, like you're talking to someone who doesn't take in and effectively use the stats that actually matter. You're a wanna-be chronz at best.

D-Leethal
10-20-2013, 01:53 PM
Pot, Kettle. You obviously think Melo is top ten, which must mean you think there is some statistic to suggest that. Why do you think that particular statistic matters? And don't tell me it is because of his great intangibles, because if we are going off ******** narratives, I'd say Melo ranks pretty low in being able to lead his team to a championship.

Now, you can try to prove these conclusions are false. Otherwise, once again, you are arguing against facts. If something in math is wrong, you can show it. That's the great thing about math.

The stats you use to rank players or say "who's better" are nowhere near facts and you cannot draw conclusions using them and only them and call them "Facts".

Thats the great thing about basketball. Its far too complex a sport for simpletons like you to turn into baseball.

Guppyfighter
10-20-2013, 02:00 PM
The stats you use to rank players or say "who's better" are nowhere near facts and you cannot draw conclusions using them and only them and call them "Facts".

Thats the great thing about basketball. Its far too complex a sport for simpletons like you to turn into baseball.



Basketball is actually the easiest sport to predict and is the least complex sport of all of them. Out of every sport, the stats for players and teams stay remarkably consistent year to year.

And, yes, they are facts. But once again, you are welcomed to prove the fallibility of statistics. A person who has at least went to college in some degree wouldn't be writing things that are so asinine so a conclusion I have to draw is that you aren't educated in regards to things in math. You are ignorant. You are arguing against things you don't understand.

You are like the rest of the people you read in history books who tried to fight against progress. You are their equivalent.

Guppyfighter
10-20-2013, 02:03 PM
It's absolutely amazing to me that the NFL forum has better conversations about an actually complex sport. I guess when something is actually complicated you don't need to remind people about it. All you have to do is discuss it.

And when you are ignorant to the sport in question and have a hard time understanding the stats you have to hide behind the "IT'S TOO COMPLICATED TO USE."

D-Leethal
10-20-2013, 02:34 PM
Dude, you have stated many times on here things like the "hot hand" is nothing more than a statistical variation and does not truly exist, and you want people to actually think you understand the game of basketball on anything deeper than strictly a statistical/paper level?

Guppyfighter
10-20-2013, 02:37 PM
Dude, you have stated many times on here things like the "hot hand" is nothing more than a statistical variation and does not truly exist, and you want people to actually think you understand the game of basketball on anything deeper than strictly a statistical/paper level?

I have and I have yet to see a compelling argument against that position. Do you actually understand the basketball game past narratives and rhetoric?

The only people I know who care about this stuff can't tell you much of what's going on. They won't tell you about hedging, icing the pick and roll. I have certainly never seen you talk about any of this stuff. And it's likely because you don't know what's going on the court.

ILLUSIONIST^248
10-20-2013, 03:03 PM
I am not sure I have ever heard an argument from you based in reality.

He's in my 9-15 range. Now, you can try to prove Melo is top 10. That's fine. Otherwise, your making the argument because you are a Knicks fan.

Melo is easily a top 10 player, stop being a hater to any player not named Lebron.

Mile High Champ
10-20-2013, 03:09 PM
Wow people need to stop and read about the rankings before posting. It clearly is based on projections for this season. Relax.

D-Leethal
10-20-2013, 03:12 PM
I have and I have yet to see a compelling argument against that position. Do you actually understand the basketball game past narratives and rhetoric?

The only people I know who care about this stuff can't tell you much of what's going on. They won't tell you about hedging, icing the pick and roll. I have certainly never seen you talk about any of this stuff. And it's likely because you don't know what's going on the court.

My god you outdid even yourself on this one.

Search keywords "hedge hedging pick roll" user name "Guppyfighter" - 2 results (one being this quoted post)

LOL and it looks like you must have saved that same exact sentence or some **** because you stated it twice word for word and never once used it on this forum in actual basketball context - just to tell someone that THEY in fact don't know how to use it.


Nope. You don't understand because you are not well versed in psychology at all. The claims people make about psychology and sports on this site would never be said by someone who actually understands the science of psychology. It's just ridiculous. They are narratives constructed by bad sports journalism. People who think this stuff matters are ignorant to the sport in question. They usually can't tell you what icing the pick and roll is or hedging, or anything. They don't know. The claim people who are only using data are ignorant is just wrong. Not sure how anyone can sit here, straight faced, and say "nah, stats are not the whole story." The applications are new, but the math isn't. The math has been around forever and the models have been too. There are opinions and facts. Math has facts. That's what I care about. I don't need to hear "chemistry made this team win more." It's far more likely they have chemistry because they are winning and not the other way around.


I have and I have yet to see a compelling argument against that position. Do you actually understand the basketball game past narratives and rhetoric?

The only people I know who care about this stuff can't tell you much of what's going on. They won't tell you about hedging, icing the pick and roll. I have certainly never seen you talk about any of this stuff. And it's likely because you don't know what's going on the court.

LOL. Way to go man, you must have showed us all what hedging the pick and roll truly means.

Search keywords "hedge hedging pick roll" user name "D-Leethal" - 12 results


Close for me between CP3 and Duncan. Part of me wants to go Duncan because of the monster defensive impact a big man like him can make anchoring the paint compared to guarding PGs on the perimeter which pretty much requires a competent big man to hedge/shut down pick and rolls anyway. PGs can't shut down the ball screen game without a big man to work in unison with.

Going CP3 because of the impact he can make on the other end with his playmaking. Its sort of the same widespread impact Duncan makes on the other end except instead of cleaning up everyones mess by anchoring the paint, its getting everyone else open shots that otherwise wouldn't be there.


Best case scenario like Rican said is having KMart take the assignment that will require the most rotations, whether that is a stretch 4 or the pick and roll big.

The thing that scares me is when we play a team like Miami. Its not really possible to hide Amare. You put Martin on the stretch 4 (Battier) that means Amare is guarding the pick and roll big. That means Amare is left on an island in the middle of the floor trying to hedge and recover a LeBron-Bosh pick and roll with nothing but shooters surrounding the arc. You let KMart guard the LeBron-Bosh high pick and roll, Amare is assigned the task of 'help and recover' against LeBron penetration and corner kickouts.

Miami is a tough, tough matchup for Amare. There is nowhere to hide him.


I think people don't even understand the schemes they are watching half the time, and they see a blatant switch hurt us and will act like we switch every possession with no regard for matchups or anything - just switch **** everything else.

Thats couldn't be any more false, we may use the switch more often than most teams, but we switch certain matchups, we trap certain matchups, we hedge the screen on certain matchups, and we force the guard to fight through the screen and let the big man stay home on the big man on certain matchups.

Woody said on the Woodson show the other day that we have like 6-7 different color-coded coverages for guarding pick and rolls. Its not always switching, thats just easiest to recognize so people love to point it out when it doesn't work.


Chandler hedging the pick and roll again is a beautiful thing.


He is EXACTLY the C that OKC needs against teams like Miami and the pick and roll game of the Spurs. IIRC, they pretty much had to bench Perkins vs the Spurs to have a guy quick enough laterally to hedge the PnR and Perkins was way exposed against MIA for his slow footedness.

At the time, I wanted Nene and Gasol over Tyson. He is now probably my favorite Knick. Dude is such a beast on the court and in the lockeroom.

Only C in the league I'd trade him for, on this current team, would be Noah. Dwight is such a heartless turd.


This. Melo has the skills but lacks the motor and 48 minute effort on D.

Amare I think truly has the drive but is just so damn stupid on that end. No awareness in transition, constantly loses his man and picks up the wrong guy (Tyson used to go crazy and literally point and push him towards his man in transition), in the half court he ball-watches and pretty much sets the definition of 'falling asleep on D' when his man waltzes backdoor for a layup. His awareness is the worst in the league.

On top of that, for such a tremendous athlete he is peculiarly stiff with his lateral movement. He can't slide out and hedge the pick and roll and he can't play good 1 on 1 defense and maintain position in front of his man.

His physical strength, athleticism and shot blocking is literally all he has on D.

Too many people say 'defense is 100% effort, anyone can play D with the effort' and rehashed garbage like that but it couldn't be further from the truth. You need the skills and ability first, than the effort to solidify it. Melo has part 1 and not part 2. STAT probably has neither but definitely 100% not part 1.


I have said I am not against KMart I just think there are better options.

And I don't see much of any athleticism or lateral quickness to hedge the Derrick Roses, Brandon Jennings, Kyrie Irvings, Rondos, Walls and other quick east PG's off the pick and roll at this point in his career. But hey, I am willing to be wrong and I agree with Meloman we really need a guy who can hedge those guys off screens off the bench because Amare is a human escort around the screen into the lane.

Kurt Thomas is our current backup, Melo is a lock to get a bunch of minutes as will Novak there too.

I think most here want Lou Amundson but he seems like hes going to the highest bidder which unfortunately will most likely be the Bobcats.


If I remember correctly, we never really switched with Tyson and Jeffries. Those guys would actually pop out and hedge the pick and roll than retreat back to their man, they are two of the best pick and roll defenders in the business.

I don't think our switching routine is as simple as you make it seem, we would switch multiple times and we would also help on mismatches. There were a few games we were exposed - Boston and PHX I remember were the two biggest ones.

But there were plenty of times JVG and other analysts praised for how effective the switching was. Our switching scheme isn't just switch and let Tyson guard the PG, there are multiple switches, multiple helpers for the mismatches, we would switch and re-switch instantly, its a complex defensive system.

No one here can say it didn't work, because it did, and damn well.


Hes too slow to guard the majority of hybrid Bosh-like 4s in this league. Hes too slow to guard pick and rolls. I still have nightmares of our 4th quarter collapse against Indy where Barbosa left him in his dust before he could even hedge the screen about 4 consecutive plays.

Decent situational bench player, has good hands and is a smart guy, but you can't rely on him on a nightly basis because he creates too many negative mismatches.


LOL, your gonna tell me I'm wrong about the schemes my team has run all season long? They are exactly the same. We switch on any screen thats not a 1-5 screen (Tyson/Jared/Amare will hedge the screen and/or double the PG when its 1-5, but we switch on every other position), we double down low from the weak side and on the perimeter pick and rolls (when its Jared or Tyson guarding the screener) and force TO's. We pack the paint on penetration and live with guys beating us from 3. We funnel guys baseline into Big Daddy Tyson.

Our D is predicated on forcing TO's which have been tops in the league all season long, the rotations are the same, the schemes the same. The accountability, demand from the coach, and response from the team are different.

And I am not saying Tyson is a better defender than Dwight. Dwight is a better on court defensive player, but DPOY, just like MVP, every now and then needs to switch. Dwights not gonna get it every year especially when his team is going through all sorts of circus like drama. Just like LeBron isn't going to get MVP every year when his #s say he should.

I will say Dwight doesn't bring 1/100th of the intangibles, leadership, or championship pedigree to the table that Tyson does. Those are not quantified in any stats but you better believe they show up on the court and permeate through a team and usually up the defense as a result of upping the overall intensity of the team.


Don't get all angry with me here, and Melo played his ***** off last night. But Granger went buckwild from 3 the second they adjusted and put Granger at the 4 to match up with him instead of trying to force him to matchup with the bulkier 4s they started with like West and Hansbrough. Vogel said himself that was the only adjustment he made. Melo was used to guarding bigger guys all night and fell asleep when he had to guard the 3 point line. They switched Shump on him after Granger drilled 2 of em on Melo and 1 in transition on a switch.

But IMO, those 3s are a non factor if Barbosa doesn't get 3 straight layups off pick and rolls to start the 4th where he blew past Jorts who can't hedge a PnR to save his life.

The crowd got into it, started going crazy and the momentum shifted in their favor and we fed into it with stupid fouls, turnovers, and quick bad shots.

When the crowd is going bananas on the road you NEED TO GET TO THE FT LINE. It sucks the life out of the crowd and allows you to stop the run. A couple bad shots, long rebounds, transition 3s and the lead was down to 6 and we finally called TO.

The Shumpert flagrant freakin' killed us. Turn the ball over and than make a horrible foul after he already got the layup on the rim. He should have just let West take it in for a dunk. Instead he got: layup, 3 FT's and the ball. That was a freakin' killer.

D-Leethal
10-20-2013, 03:13 PM
Yep, I most certainly have no idea whats actually going on the court - and definitely have no idea what hedging the pick and roll means let alone have the ability to discuss it.

You sure seem to though - way to be, kid!

Guppyfighter
10-20-2013, 03:15 PM
Melo is easily a top 10 player, stop being a hater to any player not named Lebron.

This is the guy on your side, D-Leethal. Think about that.

Guppyfighter
10-20-2013, 03:16 PM
Yep, I most certainly have no idea whats actually going on the court - and definitely have no idea what hedging the pick and roll means let alone have the ability to discuss it.

You sure seem to though - way to be, kid!

Child please. You still have never discussed anything meaningful on this site. You never discussed tactics teams use and you have never made an argument with it being grounded in reality.

I'd love for you to explain to me right now what icing the pick and roll means.

D-Leethal
10-20-2013, 03:17 PM
This is the guy on your side, D-Leethal. Think about that.

When it comes to Melo being a top 10 player, many credible people on this site are also on my side.

D-Leethal
10-20-2013, 03:20 PM
Child please. You still have never discussed anything meaningful on this site. You never discussed tactics teams use and you have never made an argument with it being grounded in reality.

I'd love for you to explain to me right now what icing the pick and roll means.

The defender on the ball blocks off the screener, essentially rendering him useless and cutting off any path towards the paint, while giving up the baseline (where help will be waiting).

If you also want to know what hedging means, theres plenty of quotes above since it doesn't seem like you've ever heard the term before.

D-Leethal
10-20-2013, 03:21 PM
I have and I have yet to see a compelling argument against that position. Do you actually understand the basketball game past narratives and rhetoric?

The only people I know who care about this stuff can't tell you much of what's going on. They won't tell you about hedging, icing the pick and roll. I have certainly never seen you talk about any of this stuff. And it's likely because you don't know what's going on the court.

My god you outdid even yourself on this one.

Search keywords "hedge hedging pick roll" user name "Guppyfighter" - 2 results (one being this quoted post)

LOL and it looks like you must have saved that same exact sentence or some **** because you stated it twice word for word and never once used it on this forum in actual basketball context - just to tell someone that THEY in fact don't know how to use it.


Nope. You don't understand because you are not well versed in psychology at all. The claims people make about psychology and sports on this site would never be said by someone who actually understands the science of psychology. It's just ridiculous. They are narratives constructed by bad sports journalism. People who think this stuff matters are ignorant to the sport in question. They usually can't tell you what icing the pick and roll is or hedging, or anything. They don't know. The claim people who are only using data are ignorant is just wrong. Not sure how anyone can sit here, straight faced, and say "nah, stats are not the whole story." The applications are new, but the math isn't. The math has been around forever and the models have been too. There are opinions and facts. Math has facts. That's what I care about. I don't need to hear "chemistry made this team win more." It's far more likely they have chemistry because they are winning and not the other way around.


I have and I have yet to see a compelling argument against that position. Do you actually understand the basketball game past narratives and rhetoric?

The only people I know who care about this stuff can't tell you much of what's going on. They won't tell you about hedging, icing the pick and roll. I have certainly never seen you talk about any of this stuff. And it's likely because you don't know what's going on the court.

LOL. Way to go man, you must have showed us all what hedging the pick and roll truly means.

Search keywords "hedge hedging pick roll" user name "D-Leethal" - 12 results


Close for me between CP3 and Duncan. Part of me wants to go Duncan because of the monster defensive impact a big man like him can make anchoring the paint compared to guarding PGs on the perimeter which pretty much requires a competent big man to hedge/shut down pick and rolls anyway. PGs can't shut down the ball screen game without a big man to work in unison with.

Going CP3 because of the impact he can make on the other end with his playmaking. Its sort of the same widespread impact Duncan makes on the other end except instead of cleaning up everyones mess by anchoring the paint, its getting everyone else open shots that otherwise wouldn't be there.


Best case scenario like Rican said is having KMart take the assignment that will require the most rotations, whether that is a stretch 4 or the pick and roll big.

The thing that scares me is when we play a team like Miami. Its not really possible to hide Amare. You put Martin on the stretch 4 (Battier) that means Amare is guarding the pick and roll big. That means Amare is left on an island in the middle of the floor trying to hedge and recover a LeBron-Bosh pick and roll with nothing but shooters surrounding the arc. You let KMart guard the LeBron-Bosh high pick and roll, Amare is assigned the task of 'help and recover' against LeBron penetration and corner kickouts.

Miami is a tough, tough matchup for Amare. There is nowhere to hide him.


I think people don't even understand the schemes they are watching half the time, and they see a blatant switch hurt us and will act like we switch every possession with no regard for matchups or anything - just switch **** everything else.

Thats couldn't be any more false, we may use the switch more often than most teams, but we switch certain matchups, we trap certain matchups, we hedge the screen on certain matchups, and we force the guard to fight through the screen and let the big man stay home on the big man on certain matchups.

Woody said on the Woodson show the other day that we have like 6-7 different color-coded coverages for guarding pick and rolls. Its not always switching, thats just easiest to recognize so people love to point it out when it doesn't work.


Chandler hedging the pick and roll again is a beautiful thing.


He is EXACTLY the C that OKC needs against teams like Miami and the pick and roll game of the Spurs. IIRC, they pretty much had to bench Perkins vs the Spurs to have a guy quick enough laterally to hedge the PnR and Perkins was way exposed against MIA for his slow footedness.

At the time, I wanted Nene and Gasol over Tyson. He is now probably my favorite Knick. Dude is such a beast on the court and in the lockeroom.

Only C in the league I'd trade him for, on this current team, would be Noah. Dwight is such a heartless turd.


This. Melo has the skills but lacks the motor and 48 minute effort on D.

Amare I think truly has the drive but is just so damn stupid on that end. No awareness in transition, constantly loses his man and picks up the wrong guy (Tyson used to go crazy and literally point and push him towards his man in transition), in the half court he ball-watches and pretty much sets the definition of 'falling asleep on D' when his man waltzes backdoor for a layup. His awareness is the worst in the league.

On top of that, for such a tremendous athlete he is peculiarly stiff with his lateral movement. He can't slide out and hedge the pick and roll and he can't play good 1 on 1 defense and maintain position in front of his man.

His physical strength, athleticism and shot blocking is literally all he has on D.

Too many people say 'defense is 100% effort, anyone can play D with the effort' and rehashed garbage like that but it couldn't be further from the truth. You need the skills and ability first, than the effort to solidify it. Melo has part 1 and not part 2. STAT probably has neither but definitely 100% not part 1.


I have said I am not against KMart I just think there are better options.

And I don't see much of any athleticism or lateral quickness to hedge the Derrick Roses, Brandon Jennings, Kyrie Irvings, Rondos, Walls and other quick east PG's off the pick and roll at this point in his career. But hey, I am willing to be wrong and I agree with Meloman we really need a guy who can hedge those guys off screens off the bench because Amare is a human escort around the screen into the lane.

Kurt Thomas is our current backup, Melo is a lock to get a bunch of minutes as will Novak there too.

I think most here want Lou Amundson but he seems like hes going to the highest bidder which unfortunately will most likely be the Bobcats.


If I remember correctly, we never really switched with Tyson and Jeffries. Those guys would actually pop out and hedge the pick and roll than retreat back to their man, they are two of the best pick and roll defenders in the business.

I don't think our switching routine is as simple as you make it seem, we would switch multiple times and we would also help on mismatches. There were a few games we were exposed - Boston and PHX I remember were the two biggest ones.

But there were plenty of times JVG and other analysts praised for how effective the switching was. Our switching scheme isn't just switch and let Tyson guard the PG, there are multiple switches, multiple helpers for the mismatches, we would switch and re-switch instantly, its a complex defensive system.

No one here can say it didn't work, because it did, and damn well.


Hes too slow to guard the majority of hybrid Bosh-like 4s in this league. Hes too slow to guard pick and rolls. I still have nightmares of our 4th quarter collapse against Indy where Barbosa left him in his dust before he could even hedge the screen about 4 consecutive plays.

Decent situational bench player, has good hands and is a smart guy, but you can't rely on him on a nightly basis because he creates too many negative mismatches.


LOL, your gonna tell me I'm wrong about the schemes my team has run all season long? They are exactly the same. We switch on any screen thats not a 1-5 screen (Tyson/Jared/Amare will hedge the screen and/or double the PG when its 1-5, but we switch on every other position), we double down low from the weak side and on the perimeter pick and rolls (when its Jared or Tyson guarding the screener) and force TO's. We pack the paint on penetration and live with guys beating us from 3. We funnel guys baseline into Big Daddy Tyson.

Our D is predicated on forcing TO's which have been tops in the league all season long, the rotations are the same, the schemes the same. The accountability, demand from the coach, and response from the team are different.

And I am not saying Tyson is a better defender than Dwight. Dwight is a better on court defensive player, but DPOY, just like MVP, every now and then needs to switch. Dwights not gonna get it every year especially when his team is going through all sorts of circus like drama. Just like LeBron isn't going to get MVP every year when his #s say he should.

I will say Dwight doesn't bring 1/100th of the intangibles, leadership, or championship pedigree to the table that Tyson does. Those are not quantified in any stats but you better believe they show up on the court and permeate through a team and usually up the defense as a result of upping the overall intensity of the team.


Don't get all angry with me here, and Melo played his ***** off last night. But Granger went buckwild from 3 the second they adjusted and put Granger at the 4 to match up with him instead of trying to force him to matchup with the bulkier 4s they started with like West and Hansbrough. Vogel said himself that was the only adjustment he made. Melo was used to guarding bigger guys all night and fell asleep when he had to guard the 3 point line. They switched Shump on him after Granger drilled 2 of em on Melo and 1 in transition on a switch.

But IMO, those 3s are a non factor if Barbosa doesn't get 3 straight layups off pick and rolls to start the 4th where he blew past Jorts who can't hedge a PnR to save his life.

The crowd got into it, started going crazy and the momentum shifted in their favor and we fed into it with stupid fouls, turnovers, and quick bad shots.

When the crowd is going bananas on the road you NEED TO GET TO THE FT LINE. It sucks the life out of the crowd and allows you to stop the run. A couple bad shots, long rebounds, transition 3s and the lead was down to 6 and we finally called TO.

The Shumpert flagrant freakin' killed us. Turn the ball over and than make a horrible foul after he already got the layup on the rim. He should have just let West take it in for a dunk. Instead he got: layup, 3 FT's and the ball. That was a freakin' killer.

Just so this doesn't get lost from ya on the other page Gup.

Guppyfighter
10-20-2013, 03:21 PM
When it comes to Melo being a top 10 player, many credible people on this site are also on my side.

Credible as in they agree with you. Not that it matters though. That's not an argument that you can really hang your hat on. We have had smarter people all agree on something that have been wrong. Why should I care about what a group consensus is? Show me with facts.

What about Melo makes him top ten other than points per game and playing in New York?

bholly
10-20-2013, 03:22 PM
'Melo was easily top 10 last year. There is no debate, really.

ESPN is a Disney company.


Its easy. You're just failing to acknowledge the year he had.


You think I'm saying Melo deserved MVP last year?? Absolutely not. My point is that even though Melo got a vote by an idiot, he was generally considered number 2 or 3 in the MVP all year...how can someone who was in that category and also won the scoring title last year be voted so low? Even if it's projecting for 2014? I get that ESPN is a joke and I shouldn't take them seriously, but it pisses me off coming here and seeing people legitimately thinking Melo isn't a top-10 player...he's in the top-5 for me, call me a homer.


When you are top 3 in MVP voting, you are a top 10 player. I'm not arguing he was the third best player in the league. I'm arguing that 15 is not reasonable no matter how you slice it.

Why would we have a significant step back? And even if we did, 5-6 wins fine, 17 less wins is completely unreasonable.

Considering the plethora of long term injuries we faced last year to every starter and key reserves, its easier to argue we could have come close to 60 wins last year than "we got lucky" en route to 54. Either way, 37 is a complete and utter joke.

You seem to acknowledge this out of one side of your mouth and say its reasonable out of the other.


Can you name me one dude who was NOT deemed a top 10 player after being top 3 in MVP voting?


And btw, I'm always here to talk basketball, not sure I've ever heard an argument come out of your mouth that wasn't formed solely on statistical basis.

And even the biggest Melo haters will heed to the fact that he was definitely a top 10 player last season.

And until you can go find me another dude who was voted top 3 in MVP, who was not a top 10 player, my original stance still holds true.

This whole argument about whether he was top 10 last year is moot. He was a top 10 player last year, and even ESPN said so by putting him #9 in their rankings - http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/9140871/nba-player-rankings-no-9-carmelo-anthony. It's right there, they considered him a top 10 player.

The current rankings are projections for this coming season. They're not saying he was only 15th best last season, they're saying they predict that he will be this season. They already said he was a top 10 2012-13 player right there in their April rankings, and now they're predicting he'll drop off. All this "rabble rabble rabble he finished top-3 in MVP voting so he must've been top 10!" is missing the entire point of what these rankings are saying.

The argument is about whether you can justify predicting a drop off or not. I think you can. Adding Bargs means he'll likely play more time at SF, rather than at PF which was where he was super effective, not to mention the fact that just playing with Bargs makes people worse. You could also argue that losing JKidd will hurt him.
Moreover, he doesn't even need to get worse for his ranking to go down, other players just need to get better. The players who passed him since the April rankings are Griffin, George, Love, Kyrie, Curry, Howard, M Gasol, Rose. The first 5 are 25 or younger, so you'd expect them to improve more rapidly than an older guy - not necessarily enough to pass him, of course, but it shouldn't be that controversial to predict significant improvement from young guys. It also shouldn't be controversial to put Rose back above Melo, and you could say the same for Dwight who you'd expect to be better this year given some stability and a better situation and probably less injuries. That really just leaves M Gasol, who since the April rankings won DPOY, made the All-NBA second team, and had a big playoffs where he was the best player on a WCF team - all things which could lead to a rise in people's rankings.

It's entirely possible that Melo will be better than some of those players again - and I'm sure the voters would be the first to admit that they're just projections and aren't going to be 100% accurate. But all the ******** about how he was top 10 last year misses the point - ESPN agree with you on that, they just don't think next year will be the same.

D-Leethal
10-20-2013, 03:27 PM
Credible as in they agree with you. Not that it matters though. That's not an argument that you can really hang your hat on. We have had smarter people all agree on something that have been wrong. Why should I care about what a group consensus is? Show me with facts.

What about Melo makes him top ten other than points per game and playing in New York?

Being a bonafide #1 option on a 54 win team devoid of legitimate #2 and #3 options that went through more injuries than nearly every team in the NBA is enough evidence to make the case for me. I don't need stats to tell me that Melo is better than Blake Griffin or can shoulder a monster load as a #1 guy on a team that wins 50+ games that probably 5-6 other players in this league are capable of doing.

You take Melo off the Knicks and they are not even a .500 team. And if Melo played with CP3 you would probably get a hardon over his advanced statline too - because thats what happens to your advanced statline when you have the luxury of playing next to superstars - which is precisely why it has such a long way to go until it can accurately portray the effect a players teammates has on an individuals success and efficiency rates.

It is a team sport after all, and its not simply a sum of isolated incidents like baseball, as much as you would like it to be.

Jamiecballer
10-20-2013, 03:29 PM
Sure I do. No matter what reasons they have, they can not correlate to 17 less wins. You said as much yourself yet keep saying its reasonable (which brings me to my last quote).
In my opinion it doesn't add up to 17 less wins, yes. But to someone else it might. Regardless, *****ing about something and then admitting you are ignorant as to what you are *****ing about is lame.



Nobody is calling him an all star. He is a KEY piece to our team, he is our lockdown defensive specialist, he is a very good 3 point shooter for us. His presence was missed big time despite Kidd shooting like 60% from 3 to start the season. He brings things to this team nobody else does - you can't act like him missing half the season was NBD. Shump shoots 40% from deep, he would contribute big time to that effectiveness AND THAN SOME because of his defensive prowess.

i like Shumpert but the mans got a career FG% of 40. so his inefficient scoring doesn't help you. and you may believe that the 40% that he hit last year from 3 in 45 games is his new norm and it may very well be, but to count on it? it's a little premature. yes defensively he is a solid player but overall i don't believe you suffered for his absence because of his inefficient offense.


Actually whether or not we get a consistent healthy Amare again is completely irrelevant to whether or not we didn't have him for 52 combined games last season.
well why would i factor a healthy Amare into my projection if i don't believe he will ever have a healthy season again? you included him in your case for why your team could have won more games last year, or could win more games this year. so it's totally relevant.



It actually is. In simple PPG average, thats the difference between 11th and 17th. Thats not a big hit to you? I am not looking up the stats but I'm sure all this forums favorite offensive efficiency ratings fell in the toilet too. It was obvious to anyone we missed him out there, even Felton's biggest haters in the Knicks forum were clamoring for him to come back.
we will have to agree to disagree. a 3 point drop over a span of 12 games isn't crippling by any means. all teams have injuries like this anyways.


After you first said it was reasonable. Hence, talking out of both sides of your mouth, agreeing its unreasonable, than stating its reasonable.
ok. crazy is the wrong word then. let's go with extreme. obviously if i predicted 9 less wins i think you guys are taking a definite step back. let's not get nit-picky over something so silly.


There is no logical reasoning to suggest we didn't get murdered with injuries last year, more than all but a few teams in this league, yet still won 54 games.....yet were supposed to feel that we "got lucky" en route to 54, and that were about to take a 17-win step back?
i'm trying to see this from your side but i just don't see the guys you lost, and the length of time you lost them for as being hit extremely hard. that seems about par for the course. had you lost Chandler for the whole season, or Melo for a large portion, or Smith for a large portion, maybe i would agree. the biggest loss you had was a guy i don't think was quite ready to make a prime time contribution yet anyways.


Even a minor "step back" in terms of talent, shooting or whatever you want to convince yourself we took a step back in, if we get ANY love from the injury bug gods this season it will be a major improvement from the injury bug we got hit with last year than hitting 54 or dare I say even more is a very attainable goal and seems to line up with simple logic.
simple logic appears to be alluding an awful lot of NBA media sources then. i will grant you that your logic is simple though :p

Guppyfighter
10-20-2013, 03:30 PM
Being a bonafide #1 option on a 54 win team devoid of legitimate #2 and #3 options that went through more injuries than nearly every team in the NBA is enough evidence to make the case for me. I don't need stats to tell me that Melo is better than Blake Griffin or can shoulder a monster load as a #1 guy that probably 5-6 players in this league are capable of doing.

This game isn't played one side of the court.

I also wish Knick fans stopped using injuries as an excuse. Everyone told them they'd miss a ton of games this year to injury. It wasn't bad luck, it was just how the team was built.

I agree though that he is top 9-15. But I can easily see an argument for any of those spots.

D-Leethal
10-20-2013, 03:40 PM
This game isn't played one side of the court.

I also wish Knick fans stopped using injuries as an excuse. Everyone told them they'd miss a ton of games this year to injury. It wasn't bad luck, it was just how the team was built.

I agree though that he is top 9-15. But I can easily see an argument for any of those spots.

LOL. Funny I never hear you bring up the defense argument to slight KD, Love, Griffin, Steph Curry, Derrick Rose or any other sub-par defenders in your top 10. The D only gets brought up with Melo, nobody cares if the other guys are crappy defenders.

And please don't bring up any individual defensive stats unless you first acknowledge the glaring flaws and team-dependence when it comes to their application to basketball.

D-Leethal
10-20-2013, 03:41 PM
Did I at least teach you a little bit about hedging the pick and roll during this back and forth?

Seemed like you needed a quick lesson since you weren't comfortable using the term on this forum...

Guppyfighter
10-20-2013, 03:43 PM
LOL. Funny I never hear you bring up the defense argument to slight KD, Love, Griffin, Steph Curry, Derrick Rose or any other sub-par defenders in your top 10. The D only gets brought up with Melo, nobody cares if the other guys are crappy defenders.

And please don't bring up any individual defensive stats unless you first acknowledge the glaring flaws and team-dependence when it comes to their application to basketball.

KD is awesome at defense.

Love is average at defense.

Griffin is above average (you think the Clippers were top five in defense on accident?)

Curry was above average in defensive metrics Warriors were a top five perimeter defensive team in three point percentage and fourth best at denying penetration. I know, Curry really relied on David Lee and Festus Ezeli to stop penetration and force bad threes.

DRose is above average on defense. But he is part of an amazing defensive system that could even cover the likes of Nate.

east fb knicks
10-20-2013, 10:21 PM
KD is awesome at defense.

Love is average at defense.

Griffin is above average (you think the Clippers were top five in defense on accident?)

Curry was above average in defensive metrics Warriors were a top five perimeter defensive team in three point percentage and fourth best at denying penetration. I know, Curry really relied on David Lee and Festus Ezeli to stop penetration and force bad threes.

DRose is above average on defense. But he is part of an amazing defensive system that could even cover the likes of Nate.

:facepalm: none of those guys are good on d your a joke and a blatant hater this dude said griffin :laugh2:

Patrick Ewing33
10-20-2013, 10:48 PM
To say Carmelo is ranked around 15 absolutely absurd, last season he was arguably a top 3 player, winning the scoring title, improving his defense and hustle, also matured and more focused more then ever. In my option he is top 7.

UPRock
10-20-2013, 11:09 PM
Then don't watch.

Tony_Starks
10-20-2013, 11:09 PM
Melo is easily top top 5 and arguably top 3.

Jamiecballer
10-20-2013, 11:23 PM
Melo is easily top top 5 and arguably top 3.

that statement just blows my mind. it's your opinion, and you have every right to it, but i can't even imagine how you come to it.

east fb knicks
10-20-2013, 11:26 PM
that statement just blows my mind. it's your opinion, and you have every right to it, but i can't even imagine how you come to it.

bargs is a top 10 player :D what does that do for your mind

Jamiecballer
10-20-2013, 11:42 PM
bargs is a to 10 player :D what does that do for your mind

bahahaha. it's too far out of the realm of possibility to have any effect.

east fb knicks
10-20-2013, 11:50 PM
bahahaha. it's too far out of the realm of possibility to have any effect.

it did something you still responded lmao i'm curios to here even 5 players you have above melo cuz we all know you are a very knowledgeable basketball fan lmao go craptors :clap:

Tony_Starks
10-20-2013, 11:57 PM
that statement just blows my mind. it's your opinion, and you have every right to it, but i can't even imagine how you come to it.

How is that so mind blowing? Led the league in scoring, led the Knicks to a very respectable season without Amare, he was even in the MVP discussion at one point.

What more do you want?

Guppyfighter
10-21-2013, 04:57 AM
How is that so mind blowing? Led the league in scoring, led the Knicks to a very respectable season without Amare, he was even in the MVP discussion at one point.

What more do you want?

You just said it was arguable that he has more of an affect on a game than Chris Paul.

Guppyfighter
10-21-2013, 04:58 AM
How is that so mind blowing? Led the league in scoring, led the Knicks to a very respectable season without Amare, he was even in the MVP discussion at one point.

What more do you want?

And there it lies. The only stat Knick fans use.

Guppyfighter
10-21-2013, 04:58 AM
:facepalm: none of those guys are good on d your a joke and a blatant hater this dude said griffin :laugh2:


Prove me wrong.

kblo247
10-21-2013, 06:08 AM
Love better? LMFAO and they factored in injuries and impact on winning. Damn fools.

bagwell368
10-21-2013, 06:27 AM
How is that so mind blowing? Led the league in scoring, led the Knicks to a very respectable season without Amare, he was even in the MVP discussion at one point.

What more do you want?

Doesn't shoot for a high percentage
Hogs the ball
Disinterested in passing
Disinterested in defense (doesn't tally many blocks or steals, meh on ball D)
Meh rebounder
Doesn't seem to be a leader
Hasn't won crap

Outside of hoisting a pile or shots and playing for the NBA Championship starved Knicks in the media capital of NY, what other claim does he have to be top 3 or 7?

None

nycericanguy
10-21-2013, 09:04 AM
Doesn't shoot for a high percentage
Hogs the ball
Disinterested in passing
Disinterested in defense (doesn't tally many blocks or steals, meh on ball D)
Meh rebounder
Doesn't seem to be a leader
Hasn't won crap

Outside of hoisting a pile or shots and playing for the NBA Championship starved Knicks in the media capital of NY, what other claim does he have to be top 3 or 7?

None

This post screams either ignorance, or just hating on a player.

Melo doesn't shoot a high %? You realize he took a TON of 3's last year, so obviously his overall fg% won't be so high. but he hit them at a very good clip. 45% is not low, Rose shot 44% his MVP year and didn't shoot anywhere near as many 3's as Melo. Curry shot 45% this year, Harden 43%...Kobe 46%...

45% is only low if you're comparing him to Durant & LBJ, or big guys.

Disinterested in passing? There's a reason NY hit a record number of 3's last year... I'm pretty sure it had something to do with the attention Melo gets. He never gets credit for it though.

His defense isn't great, but disinterested is harsh.

He's a very solid rebounder for his position, top 10.

He's one of NY's leaders by all accounts.

Hasn't won crap? He has his teams at 50+ wins year in and year out! Now, are you suggesting he's had the talent around him to win a title? Again, another case of people bashing Melo for something even the greatest player on earth couldnt' do...WIN alone w/o a #2 guy.

Kashmir13579
10-21-2013, 09:09 AM
This post screams either ignorance, or just hating on a player.

Melo doesn't shoot a high %? You realize he took a TON of 3's last year, so obviously his overall fg% won't be so high. but he hit them at a very good clip. 45% is not low, Rose shot 44% his MVP year and didn't shoot anywhere near as many 3's as Melo. Curry shot 45% this year, Harden 43%...Kobe 46%...

45% is only low if you're comparing him to Durant & LBJ, or big guys.

Disinterested in passing? There's a reason NY hit a record number of 3's last year... I'm pretty sure it had something to do with the attention Melo gets. He never gets credit for it though.

His defense isn't great, but disinterested is harsh.

He's a very solid rebounder for his position, top 10.

He's one of NY's leaders by all accounts.

Hasn't won crap? He has his teams at 50+ wins year in and year out! Now, are you suggesting he's had the talent around him to win a title? Again, another case of people bashing Melo for something even the greatest player on earth couldnt' do...WIN alone w/o a #2 guy.
Or it just screams Boston fan posting about a NY team. Simple as that.

colinskik
10-21-2013, 09:55 AM
Because he's probably the most one dimensional of any player in that top 10 conversation, and not the best at that one dimension. Hence all the stats I showed that have LBJ/KD/Cp3 top 3 that don't have Melo top 10. It's pretty fair to have Melo outside your top 10, even if he scores a lot and plays in New York.

I'll agree with you that Melo is one of the most one dimensional players in the top 10, but he did win the scoring title last year, so it's flat out wrong to say he's not the best in his given dimension (scoring).

You seem to be a guy who likes the non-traditional stats and I'm sure you'll use those to try and prove your point. But he did win an award for the one player in the entire league who scored the most points. And he did it as the focal point of a team that had basically no other offensive firepower. So under the circumstances it's to be expected that his efficiency would be low, but he scored the points and got the W's.

Heatcheck
10-21-2013, 10:05 AM
it did something you still responded lmao i'm curios to here even 5 players you have above melo cuz we all know you are a very knowledgeable basketball fan lmao go craptors :clap:

all he's good for is shooting the ball, inefficiently at that. e kills all ball movement and he's incredibly inconsistent a defense. no way in hell he's top ten let alone top five.

Heatcheck
10-21-2013, 10:07 AM
I'll agree with you that Melo is one of the most one dimensional players in the top 10, but he did win the scoring title last year, so it's flat out wrong to say he's not the best in his given dimension (scoring).

You seem to be a guy who likes the non-traditional stats and I'm sure you'll use those to try and prove your point. But he did win an award for the one player in the entire league who scored the most points. And he did it as the focal point of a team that had basically no other offensive firepower. So under the circumstances it's to be expected that his efficiency would be low, but he scored the points and got the W's.

he averaged 28 ppg, that's good, but considering its the only thing he does at an elite level, its not top ten worthy.

Tony_Starks
10-21-2013, 10:21 AM
he averaged 28 ppg, that's good, but considering its the only thing he does at an elite level, its not top ten worthy.

Considering the amount of attention he gets with no Amare and a wild card JR Smith as the # 2 option, 28 a night is pretty impressive. More importantly it translated into wins for a team that really wasn't that good.

Jamiecballer
10-21-2013, 10:25 AM
it did something you still responded lmao i'm curios to here even 5 players you have above melo cuz we all know you are a very knowledgeable basketball fan lmao go craptors :clap:

here i thought your post was good natured and not just you being an ***.

james
bryant
durant
paul
harden
rose

i threw rose in there as a bonus.

nycericanguy
10-21-2013, 10:27 AM
here i thought your post was good natured and not just you being an ***.

james
bryant
durant
paul
harden
rose

i threw rose in there as a bonus.

So u have him #7... who cares?

After LBJ/Durant it's all debatable... no ones really right or wrong.

But when ppl start putting guys like Love who rarely plays and has like a 27% career winning percentage, ahead of Melo... that's just sillyness.

Jamiecballer
10-21-2013, 10:28 AM
Doesn't shoot for a high percentage
Hogs the ball
Disinterested in passing
Disinterested in defense (doesn't tally many blocks or steals, meh on ball D)
Meh rebounder
Doesn't seem to be a leader
Hasn't won crap

Outside of hoisting a pile or shots and playing for the NBA Championship starved Knicks in the media capital of NY, what other claim does he have to be top 3 or 7?

None

this in a nutshell. he's a really really good player, perhaps top 5 if he played the game more intelligently, but i don't think it's possible to win a championship with a player that plays like him. and the top 5 guys should all be guys that could lead a team to a championship.

Jamiecballer
10-21-2013, 10:31 AM
So u have him #7... who cares?

After LBJ/Durant it's all debatable... no ones really right or wrong.

But when ppl start putting guys like Love who rarely plays and has like a 27% career winning percentage, ahead of Melo... that's just sillyness.

i don't have him at 7. i was asked to list 5, i was generous and gave 6. to me he's just outside the top 10.

i agree with you though that's it's an opinion and there is no definitive right or wrong.

nycericanguy
10-21-2013, 10:35 AM
this in a nutshell. he's a really really good player, perhaps top 5 if he played the game more intelligently, but i don't think it's possible to win a championship with a player that plays like him. and the top 5 guys should all be guys that could lead a team to a championship.

Has CP3 even been out of the first round? I'm thinking maybe once? Not sure... and he's played with Blake who is better than anyone Melo has ever had.

What has Harden done without KD or WB? His team was around .500 most of last year.

Kashmir13579
10-21-2013, 10:36 AM
Considering the amount of attention he gets with no Amare and a wild card JR Smith as the # 2 option, 28 a night is pretty impressive. More importantly it translated into wins for a team that really wasn't that good.
Right on. 'Melo was left out of the top ten in previous years for the consensus of him being an inefficient, high usage scorer. Rightfully so. This season he was incredibly efficient no matter how you slice it, while leading the league in scoring and USG%, while headlining the best 5 man unit in the league in terms of +/-, all while having JR as his second scoring option. Whoever tries arguing it wasn't a top ten effort are set-in-their-way divs having their cake and eat it too.

Jamiecballer
10-21-2013, 10:38 AM
Has CP3 even been out of the first round? I'm thinking maybe once? Not sure... and he's played with Blake who is better than anyone Melo has ever had.

What has Harden done without KD or WB? His team was around .500 most of last year.

those are valid points but i didn't say "have led a team to a championship". i said "could". Melo is an out of this world talent but the way he plays puts a ceiling on his teams IMO. Paul is incredible intelligent and unselfish, and Harden doesn't possess any qualities that I can see that would prevent building a championship around him either.

nycericanguy
10-21-2013, 10:41 AM
those are valid points but i didn't say "have led a team to a championship". i said "could". Melo is an out of this world talent but the way he plays puts a ceiling on his teams IMO. Paul is incredible intelligent and unselfish, and Harden doesn't possess any qualities that I can see that would prevent building a championship around him either.

So even though Melo has taken teams much further with less talent and no legit #2, he CAN'T lead a team to a title, but CP3 & Harden could? Interesting...

And FWIW, Harden had a pretty high usage last year too since you say Melo is a ballhog, he shot lower % from the field and from 3% and turned it over a TON more than Melo. Not to mention he shot 39% in the playoffs. I don't see a big difference between the way those guys play.

Heatcheck
10-21-2013, 10:42 AM
Considering the amount of attention he gets with no Amare and a wild card JR Smith as the # 2 option, 28 a night is pretty impressive. More importantly it translated into wins for a team that really wasn't that good.

sorry, but Wade was alone in Miami for many years, Lebron in Cleveland, even amare his first year on the knicks was alone and scored 25 on 50%.

nycericanguy
10-21-2013, 10:45 AM
sorry, but Wade was alone in Miami for many years, Lebron in Cleveland, even amare his first year on the knicks was alone and scored 25 on 50%.

Wade doesn't shoot many 3's at all so of course he's going to have a higher % overall.

Lebron is Lebron, he's on another level from anyone in this league.

Amare is a PF/C, you can't compare him to a wing, most PF/C's shoot over 50% because they shoot from inside and don't attempt 3's/

Kashmir13579
10-21-2013, 10:52 AM
sorry, but Wade was alone in Miami for many years, Lebron in Cleveland, even amare his first year on the knicks was alone and scored 25 on 50%.Who cares about FG% anymore? 'Melo scored roughly the same amount of points per 100 possessions as Lebron or Wade during the years you referenced. (not quite as much in Lebron's case, but thats Lebron we're talking about)

Secondly, 'Melo posted a 112 ORtg to Amar'e's 109 his first year on the Knicks. He also won a lot more games than Amar'e did that year.

bagwell368
10-21-2013, 10:56 AM
This post screams either ignorance, or just hating on a player.

Melo doesn't shoot a high %? You realize he took a TON of 3's last year, so obviously his overall fg% won't be so high.

You are using FG% and I am using TS% and eFG%, and you label me ignorant? Fan boy.


but he hit them at a very good clip. 45% is not low, Rose shot 44% his MVP year and didn't shoot anywhere near as many 3's as Melo. Curry shot 45% this year, Harden 43%...Kobe 46%...

Melo doesn't shoot 2 PT FG, 3 PT FG, or FT's near high enough to be labeled efficient for s guy claimed to be a top 10 player. So, he can score, but he's not an elite shooter. Is that what you were trying to say?


45% is only low if you're comparing him to Durant & LBJ, or big guys.

Hello. In the thread right above where I posted, he was mentioned as top 3, top 5, top 7, and top 10. He was probably in the 10-15 bracket - at best, but no higher as he's far too one dimensional. The past couple of years for instance Durant has played much better D, as did Kobe in key regular season games and the playoffs. Did you watch your hero in the playoffs last year?


Disinterested in passing? There's a reason NY hit a record number of 3's last year... I'm pretty sure it had something to do with the attention Melo gets. He never gets credit for it though.

How is leading the NBA in time holding the ball and his pathetic Ast totals a sign that he's interested in passing. Your point has merit, but not in relation to his passing only in an emergency mindset.


His defense isn't great, but disinterested is harsh.

He dogs it in the regular season constantly. For a guy that's a volume scorer he better have something else to bring to the dance to claim a spot as top 3. D IS NOT IT.


He's a very solid rebounder for his position, top 10.

So, he's at the edge of the top 3rd of the league at his position? How is that good enough to contribute to Knick fans ridiculous conceit that he's a top 3 player? It doesn't.


He's one of NY's leaders by all accounts.

Being a leader of a team that is less than the sum of its parts is no blue ribbon. Being paid big money and scoring lots of points doesn't make him a leader either.


Hasn't won crap? He has his teams at 50+ wins year in and year out! Now, are you suggesting he's had the talent around him to win a title? Again, another case of people bashing Melo for something even the greatest player on earth couldnt' do...WIN alone w/o a #2 guy.

Sorry, I forgot I was a teenager the last time the Knicks won a title. Winning to a Celts fan means winning it all - not 50+ games and getting flushed in the playoffs.

They played below their level last year as a team given the talent on hand.

Heatcheck
10-21-2013, 10:57 AM
Wade doesn't shoot many 3's at all so of course he's going to have a higher % overall.

Lebron is Lebron, he's on another level from anyone in this league.

Amare is a PF/C, you can't compare him to a wing, most PF/C's shoot over 50% because they shoot from inside and don't attempt 3's/

regardless of where it comes from, its more points or the same off less attempts. if you hoose to shoot jumpers and not go to the hoop, that's on you.

colinskik
10-21-2013, 10:57 AM
So even though Melo has taken teams much further with less talent and no legit #2, he CAN'T lead a team to a title, but CP3 & Harden could? Interesting...

And FWIW, Harden had a pretty high usage last year too since you say Melo is a ballhog, he shot lower % from the field and from 3% and turned it over a TON more than Melo. Not to mention he shot 39% in the playoffs. I don't see a big difference between the way those guys play.

I'm in agreement with this. I love Harden, his game, his age, and his potential. But besides getting to the FT line at will, i can't see why you would want him over Melo. It will be interesting to see how his team performs with Dwight, cause if Melo had Dwight for a running mate I think the Knicks would be crazy dangerous.

bagwell368
10-21-2013, 11:01 AM
Right on. 'Melo was left out of the top ten in previous years for the consensus of him being an inefficient, high usage scorer. Rightfully so. This season he was incredibly efficient no matter how you slice it

Really? Incredibly? Well earlier I posted his ranking by TS% and eFG%, he was above average to very good compared to the entire league and well outside of the elite.


Whoever tries arguing it wasn't a top ten effort are set-in-their-way divs having their cake and eat it too.

Spoken like an open minded fan with no dog whatever in the fight.... in a pig's eye.

nycericanguy
10-21-2013, 11:02 AM
regardless of where it comes from, its more points or the same off less attempts. if you hoose to shoot jumpers and not go to the hoop, that's on you.

LMAO! You know, the 3 point shot is worth more than a two right?

So someone shooting 35% from 3 gets more points than someone shooting 50% from 2.

Jamiecballer
10-21-2013, 11:08 AM
So even though Melo has taken teams much further with less talent and no legit #2, he CAN'T lead a team to a title, but CP3 & Harden could? Interesting...
in my opinion, yes.


And FWIW, Harden had a pretty high usage last year too since you say Melo is a ballhog, he shot lower % from the field and from 3% and turned it over a TON more than Melo. Not to mention he shot 39% in the playoffs. I don't see a big difference between the way those guys play.
the turnovers are a legitimate concern.

but for the record, Harden's usage of 29% is high but not even close to Melo's 35% - this is the area reserved for all-time greats like Jordan, James, Bryant, all of whom possess much higher assist %'s to go along with that usage. do you see what i'm saying? if you aren't an all-time great, or have excellent passing ability the ball shouldn't be in your hands so much.

here are those 4 players assist %'s - for Jordan and Bryant i used typical numbers around the peak of their careers:

James - mid 30's
Bryant - mid to high 20's
Jordan - mid 20's
Anthony - mid teens

can you see why people think he dominates the ball and freezes out his teammates?

now let's talk about that 43% shooting of Hardens:

here are the 2 players point totals for the year -

Anthony - 1920
Harden - 2023

here are their FG%'s -

Anthony - .449
Harden - .438

here is the return on investment (in points) each team got when their guy attempted a shot -

Knicks - 1.29
Rockets - 1.51

whoa! that's a big difference!

so you don't need a calculator to see that Harden was far more efficient in scoring his points while also passing the ball at a much higher level.

Kashmir13579
10-21-2013, 11:11 AM
Really? Incredibly? Well earlier I posted his ranking by TS% and eFG%, he was above average to very good compared to the entire league and well outside of the elite
TS% is relative to USG%. Taking into account 'Melo's gaudy, league leading USG%, yes he was incredibly efficient from the field.
The "entire league" doesn't have 'Melo's workload, and i'll go out on a limb and say that the "elite" you mentioned don't either apart from a few exceptions. You can't just go around blindly comparing TS%. Talk about lack of context.


Spoken like an open minded fan with no dog whatever in the fight.... in a pig's eye.

I'm the same Knicks fan that adamantly kept him out of my top ten in previous years, and was against the trade that brought him here. Play a different card.

Jamiecballer
10-21-2013, 11:12 AM
LMAO! You know, the 3 point shot is worth more than a two right?

So someone shooting 35% from 3 gets more points than someone shooting 50% from 2.

his point went right over your head. that's not what he was saying, at all.

Jamiecballer
10-21-2013, 11:14 AM
TS% is relative to USG%. Taking into account 'Melo's gaudy, league leading USG%, yes he was incredibly efficient from the field.
The "entire league" doesn't have 'Melo's workload, and i'll go out on a limb and say that the "elite" you mentioned don't either apart from a few exceptions. You can't just go around blindly comparing TS%. Talk about lack of context.

Melo's workload is self imposed, the result of a player who has no idea how to play team basketball. It wouldn't, and hasn't, mattered who you put around him. That's a flaw, not a point in his favor.

Kashmir13579
10-21-2013, 11:26 AM
Melo's workload is self imposed, the result of a player who has no idea how to play team basketball. It wouldn't, and hasn't, mattered who you put around him. That's a flaw, not a point in his favor.
Its only a flaw when it doesn't work.

Jamiecballer
10-21-2013, 11:28 AM
Its only a flaw when it doesn't work.

wake me up when it works at a level that matters.

Tony_Starks
10-21-2013, 11:28 AM
Melo's workload is self imposed, the result of a player who has no idea how to play team basketball. It wouldn't, and hasn't, mattered who you put around him. That's a flaw, not a point in his favor.

Did you see the team around him last year? J Kidd who was a shell of himself? Shumpert was hurt. They had bigs like K Thomas, Camby, K Mart, Sheed? The only way he could of made them better was with a fountain of youth. It was like at YMCA team, arguably the worst he's ever played on and he STILL got them to the second round.

Jamiecballer
10-21-2013, 11:33 AM
Did you see the team around him last year? J Kidd who was a shell of himself? Shumpert was hurt. They had bigs like K Thomas, Camby, K Mart, Sheed? The only way he could of made them better was with a fountain of youth. It was like at YMCA team, arguably the worst he's ever played on and he STILL got them to the second round.

and most of those ancients you mention hardly played.

did you see the stat where the Knicks set a record for 3 point attempts made and attempted per game last season? who gets credit for that?

Kashmir13579
10-21-2013, 11:33 AM
I still love this opinion of him not playing TEAM basketball last season. Thats all it is though, an opinion. The facts are he headlined the best 5-man unit in the NBA according to ESPNs +/- stat and ensured the Knicks were a top 3 offensive team according to any relevant stat. People are entitled to have opinions, despite them being factually wrong. Not that i wouldn't like to see 'Melo pass out of the double team a bit more, who am i to argue with results.

Kashmir13579
10-21-2013, 11:34 AM
wake me up when it works at a level that matters.

Wake me up when your stance against 'Melo's season isn't arbitrary and unfounded.

Jamiecballer
10-21-2013, 11:37 AM
I still love this opinion of him not playing TEAM basketball last season. Thats all it is though, an opinion. The facts are he headlined the best 5-man unit in the NBA according to ESPNs +/- stat and ensured the Knicks were a top 3 offensive team according to any relevant stat. People are entitled to have opinions, despite them being factually wrong. Not that i wouldn't like to see 'Melo pass out of the double team a bit more, who am i to argue with results.
surrounded by 3 point shooters and a couple really tough nosed defenders is a good place for Carmelo to be. doesn't in any way make the opinion that Melo isn't a team player factually wrong though.

Kashmir13579
10-21-2013, 11:37 AM
Did you see the team around him last year? J Kidd who was a shell of himself? Shumpert was hurt. They had bigs like K Thomas, Camby, K Mart, Sheed? The only way he could of made them better was with a fountain of youth. It was like at YMCA team, arguably the worst he's ever played on and he STILL got them to the second round.

Lets criticize him for doing more with less! :D

Jamiecballer
10-21-2013, 11:38 AM
Wake me up when your stance against 'Melo's season isn't arbitrary and unfounded.

resorting to insults instead of debating the points. good one.

Kashmir13579
10-21-2013, 11:39 AM
surrounded by 3 point shooters and a couple really tough nosed defenders is a good place for Carmelo to be. doesn't it any way make the opinion that Melo isn't a team player factually wrong though.

Your filler nonsense bores me at this point.

Kashmir13579
10-21-2013, 11:42 AM
resorting to insults instead of debating the points. good one.
because, "wake me up when he does it at a level that matters" is such a titillating point to debate. lmfao

BklynKnicks3
10-21-2013, 11:46 AM
I did that since they had him 17th few years ago he has been great and went up to 10th lol and then back to 15th
If ESPN is such a joke (mostly, it is), then why create threads playing it up by worrying about what they say? Stop freaking out and enjoy the fact that you think you'll have the last laugh in their projections.

Tony_Starks
10-21-2013, 11:48 AM
The fact of the matter is whether you think he was a top player or not playing the way he played made them their most competitive and gave them a respectable season and post season. And I'm
no Knick fan, I just give credit where credit is due. Melo had a helluva year!

Jamiecballer
10-21-2013, 11:49 AM
because, "wake me up when he does it at a level that matters" is such a titillating point to debate. lmfao

you said playing hero ball wasn't a flaw if it worked. i subtly pointed out that it hadn't. sorry if that went over your head. this conversation is done.

BklynKnicks3
10-21-2013, 11:50 AM
Melo is no Lower then 4th 2,3,4 is debtable between Kd Melo cp3.

Kashmir13579
10-21-2013, 12:00 PM
you said playing hero ball wasn't a flaw if it worked. i subtly pointed out that it hadn't. sorry if that went over your head. this conversation is done.
Hero ball, bully ball, call it whatever you want, 'Melo for the most part played smart and savvy this year and the results are well documented, despite whatever unfounded, factually incorrect drivel you feel you should post.

bagwell368
10-21-2013, 12:02 PM
TS% is relative to USG%. Taking into account 'Melo's gaudy, league leading USG%, yes he was incredibly efficient from the field.
The "entire league" doesn't have 'Melo's workload, and i'll go out on a limb and say that the "elite" you mentioned don't either apart from a few exceptions. You can't just go around blindly comparing TS%. Talk about lack of context.


I'm the same Knicks fan that adamantly kept him out of my top ten in previous years, and was against the trade that brought him here. Play a different card.

Gaudy? USG isn't gaudy unless the scoring(efficiency)/assists are elite. Looking back at NBA USG leaders by year, you end up with some volume scorers such as AI, and Kobe in '11-'12, and Wilkins. Then you have the all around types like James, Jordan, Shaq, DRob, and Wade. That's gaudy. the first group is not - easy to see via the way they play the game and the results that they get in results.

What load? He was 52nd in minutes played and missed a whopping 22 games. He was 15th in MPG when he did play.

He's never made the top 10 in Win Shares, and only once made the top 10 in offensive win shares (9th) one time only.

Your personal history with your feelings on Carmelo have no bearing on me. I see the same things in him that made me dislike Wilkins and AI. 1 on 1 players stuck in a 5 on 5 league.

bagwell368
10-21-2013, 12:03 PM
Hero ball, bully ball, call it whatever you want, 'Melo for the most part played smart and savvy this year and the results are well documented, despite whatever unfounded, factually incorrect drivel you feel you should post.

So as I said, you are confirmed fan boy. Good to know we can safely ignore you.

bholly
10-21-2013, 12:05 PM
Melo is no Lower then 4th 2,3,4 is debtable between Kd Melo cp3.

If you seriously think there's a debate between Melo and KD then I think that says just about everything we need to know. I can sort of understand when people claim there's a debate between guys of different positions, because comparing them can be unclear, but with Melo and KD it just isn't a real question.

Kashmir13579
10-21-2013, 12:26 PM
Gaudy? USG isn't gaudy unless the scoring(efficiency)/assists are elite. Looking back at NBA USG leaders by year, you end up with some volume scorers such as AI, and Kobe in '11-'12, and Wilkins. Then you have the all around types like James, Jordan, Shaq, DRob, and Wade. That's gaudy. the first group is not - easy to see via the way they play the game and the results that they get in results
Are we arguing semantics now? A different take on the word gaudy and a fundamental dislike for isolation players seems to be your gripe with what i said there. Out of curiosity, do you feel the same way about Kobe?


What load? He was 52nd in minutes played and missed a whopping 22 games. He was 15th in MPG when he did play. Lets start with the workload when he was on the court. Ya know, that gaudy USG% i was talking about. Semantics again.


He's never made the top 10 in Win Shares, and only once made the top 10 in offensive win shares (9th) one time only.Why do i care? WSs and WS/48 are fun stats to look at, but when used as a crux of a debate i can't help but laughing. Its like, reaching for a knock, and WSs was what you can get to without having to reach too far. Match-ups, time-outs, substitutions, factors determined by coaching can and will manipulate a players WSs. I appreciate the stat because it seems to reward great role players, unlike PER. I also get why it doesn't favor chuckers. But 'Melo's WS/48 was actually very respectable this season, and thats the season in question.


Your personal history with your feelings on Carmelo have no bearing on me. I see the same things in him that made me dislike Wilkins and AI. 1 on 1 players stuck in a 5 on 5 league.
Thats your prerogative. I actually fundamentally agree with you in most cases, but not in regards to Carmelo's latest season. He was simply too effective for me to be on the other side of the fence here.

Kashmir13579
10-21-2013, 12:29 PM
So as I said, you are confirmed fan boy. Good to know we can safely ignore you.


You are a Boston fan dissing NY players and fans, you aren't allowed to play the subjective fanboy card. Doesn't hold up.

Jamiecballer
10-21-2013, 12:35 PM
Hero ball, bully ball, call it whatever you want, 'Melo for the most part played smart and savvy this year and the results are well documented, despite whatever unfounded, factually incorrect drivel you feel you should post.

and i'll continue to reply because i know there are open minded people other than you who will read what i am posting.

yes it was successful - to the tune of a 54 win regular season and second round exit. as a raps fan i would be thrilled to have that but only for so long. his style of play makes your chances of ultimately winning incredibly small. isn't that the ultimate goal?

there have been other players who've tried to win playing like Melo but they always fall short of the prize. Iverson came close but even he couldn't do it and he was more talented.

the irony here is that my own team might be in a similar place in the coming years as we picked up our own poor mans version of Melo in Gay. god help us.

Jamiecballer
10-21-2013, 12:36 PM
You are a Boston fan dissing NY players and fans, you aren't allowed to play the subjective fanboy card. Doesn't hold up.

right. i forgot a person from one place couldn't be subjective about a team from another place. you are fire today. why don't you try talking about basketball and see if you can make a point or two here and there instead of just trolling this thread?

Kashmir13579
10-21-2013, 12:47 PM
and i'll continue to reply because i know there are open minded people other than you who will read what i am posting.

yes it was successful - to the tune of a 54 win regular season and second round exit. as a raps fan i would be thrilled to have that but only for so long. his style of play makes your chances of ultimately winning incredibly small. isn't that the ultimate goal?

there have been other players who've tried to win playing like Melo but they always fall short of the prize. Iverson came close but even he couldn't do it and he was more talented.

the irony here is that my own team might be in a similar place in the coming years as we picked up our own poor mans version of Melo in Gay. god help us.
You can keep replying all you like, its still the same tripe as before.

Kashmir13579
10-21-2013, 12:48 PM
right. i forgot a person from one place couldn't be subjective about a team from another place. you are fire today. why don't you try talking about basketball and see if you can make a point or two here and there instead of just trolling this thread?

Our Lady Peace.

FlashBolt
10-21-2013, 12:54 PM
Lmao, 2/3 is not debatable. KD and CP are much ahead of Melo. I'd rather take Kobe than Melo, also.

Heatcheck
10-21-2013, 12:58 PM
LMAO! You know, the 3 point shot is worth more than a two right?

So someone shooting 35% from 3 gets more points than someone shooting 50% from 2.

if there was no such thing as the free throw you'd be right. but unfortunately, jumps hooters don't get fouled nearly as often as those who take it to the hoop. nor can they get other players in foul trouble. but then again, its not like teams built around jump shooting are less successful or anything like that right?

Jamiecballer
10-21-2013, 01:05 PM
Our Lady Peace.
obviously you don't care about my opinion, but if you want to salvage the credibility you might have with others it's in your best interest to stop.

this is a basketball forum.

Kashmir13579
10-21-2013, 01:14 PM
obviously you don't care about my opinion, but if you want to salvage the credibility you might have with others it's in your best interest to stop.

this is a basketball forum.

First of all, i can count the posters in this forum that i respect on my fingers. Literally. Its a sesspool. If it isn't Bulls and Heat fans bickering back and forth, its constant bashing of everything Knicks related.

Second of all, maybe you were too busy jamming that new OLP album to pick up on the subtle nuances of interactions between Boston and NY sports fans.

D-Leethal
10-21-2013, 01:27 PM
LMAO, Our Lady Peace :rock::pity:

Jamiecballer
10-21-2013, 01:30 PM
here come the knick fans to sully the reputation of an otherwise knowledgable fan base.

Kashmir13579
10-21-2013, 01:35 PM
here come the knick fans to sully the reputation of an otherwise knowledgable fan base.

lol wtf are you talking about? What are you EVER talking about?

Kashmir13579
10-21-2013, 01:35 PM
LMAO, Our Lady Peace :rock::pity:

lol rock on dude

SLY WILLIAMS
10-21-2013, 01:46 PM
If you seriously think there's a debate between Melo and KD then I think that says just about everything we need to know. I can sort of understand when people claim there's a debate between guys of different positions, because comparing them can be unclear, but with Melo and KD it just isn't a real question.

I agree that Melo is not better than KD. If the Knicks were offered KD for Melo I think they would grab it fast. With that said Melo is not 15th either. He is probably somewhere between 3 and 10 depending on how he is playing at that point in time.

Guppyfighter
10-21-2013, 03:03 PM
This thread is really easy to summarize.


Melo is good at basketball, but not as good as most Knick fans seem to think. Thread over. Fans of their team overrate their players. That's totally fine.

Kashmir13579
10-21-2013, 03:12 PM
This thread is really easy to summarize.


Melo is good at basketball, but not as good as most Knick fans seem to think. Thread over. Fans of their team overrate their players. That's totally fine.

What Knick fans are you talking about, specifically, and how good do they think he is? Plz, continue to summarize. I'm learning so much from you and other experts in this thread.

Goose17
10-21-2013, 03:20 PM
how good do they think he is? Plz, continue to summarize. I'm learning so much from you and other experts in this thread.

It's good that you are accepting the tutelage being offered.

Now, how good is he? He's almost as good as Blake Griffin, but not quite as good as Jared Dudley.

Kashmir13579
10-21-2013, 03:22 PM
It's good that you are accepting the tutelage being offered.

Now, how good is he? He's almost as good as Blake Griffin, but not quite as good as Jared Dudley.

lol thanks for clearing that up i was genuinely curious and intrigued.

Tony_Starks
10-21-2013, 03:34 PM
This thread is really easy to summarize.


Melo is good at basketball, but not as good as most Knick fans seem to think. Thread over. Fans of their team overrate their players. That's totally fine.

Except not everyone defending him was a Knick fan, just recognizing game.

bagwell368
10-21-2013, 03:43 PM
Are we arguing semantics now? A different take on the word gaudy and a fundamental dislike for isolation players seems to be your gripe with what i said there. Out of curiosity, do you feel the same way about Kobe?

Kobe is a volume scorer also, but with a good deal more efficiency than Melo, plus he actually has played some strong D in his career unlike Melo.


Lets start with the workload when he was on the court. Ya know, that gaudy USG% i was talking about. Semantics again.

My original point months ago in the much longer Melo thread was that the Knicks would be better off if he took 5 less shots a game - his "worst" 5. Not that ones that missed, the ones that were the least advisable. Melo hogs the ball, and that's on him. He doesn't produce as much as truly elite players that have a high USG% - fact. He doesn't look to pass when there is a good pass, he looks to get rid of the ball when there is too much pressure on him.


Why do i care? WSs and WS/48 are fun stats to look at, but when used as a crux of a debate i can't help but laughing. Its like, reaching for a knock, and WSs was what you can get to without having to reach too far. Match-ups, time-outs, substitutions, factors determined by coaching can and will manipulate a players WSs. I appreciate the stat because it seems to reward great role players, unlike PER. I also get why it doesn't favor chuckers. But 'Melo's WS/48 was actually very respectable this season, and thats the season in question.

Respectible - even very very good? Yes. Elite? No. There were 13 NBA players that had a higher WS/48 in 1997 or more minutes played on the season. Thanks for making my point.


Thats your prerogative. I actually fundamentally agree with you in most cases, but not in regards to Carmelo's latest season. He was simply too effective for me to be on the other side of the fence here.

Like I wrote, I'll buy him in the 10-15 bracket last year, but not top 3, 5, 7.

ClearSoulForce
10-21-2013, 03:44 PM
Jamal CRawford is also a 6 MOY.. that's just an award man, given out by the same guys that said Curry wasn't an all star. I don't put any weight to that.

JR played 34mpg... he was basically a starter. he shot 42%, as did Felton & Shump... that's not help, it's just not. You can't seriously even begin to compare him to the support other stars have.

And I love Tyson, but he's a defender, he's not someone who's going to take the pressure off Melo in the playoffs when scoring is much harder against elite defenses. I mean he has a 6ppg career scoring average.

There's no "excuses" there... Even LBJ couldn't do it w/o a 2nd star... heck he needed TWO other stars... why should Melo have to do it alone? Love alone can't even get his team in the CONVERSATION for a playoff spot, yet he gets ranked ahead?

Uhh Dirk won with Tyson snd a bunch of role players. What is Melo's excuse when he has "th most explosive player in NBA history" in Amare, "the second greatest scorer ever behind Melo in JR, and the "best SG in the NBA" in Iman.

nycericanguy
10-21-2013, 03:50 PM
Uhh Dirk won with Tyson snd a bunch of role players. What is Melo's excuse when he has "th most explosive player in NBA history" in Amare, "the second greatest scorer ever behind Melo in JR, and the "best SG in the NBA" in Iman.

:confused:

But it took Dirk 13 years and really great runs by Terry, Kidd, Marion & Chandler.

That's really the only way 1 star can win alone, if his supporting cast plays over their heads.

Kashmir13579
10-21-2013, 03:57 PM
Kobe is a volume scorer also, but with a good deal more efficiency than Melo, plus he actually has played some strong D in his career unlike Melo
I'm talking about THIS YEAR if i haven't made that exhaustingly clear to you by now. 'Melo's offensive rating THIS YEAR is better than Kobe's has been in the last three years. You're right that 'Melo is often a lack luster defender and routinely takes possessions off. His defense has improved in my eyes thanks to Mike Woodson. I'm hoping for further improvement this seaso, but i won't hold my breath.




My original point months ago in the much longer Melo thread was that the Knicks would be better off if he took 5 less shots a game - his "worst" 5. Not that ones that missed, the ones that were the least advisable. Melo hogs the ball, and that's on him. He doesn't produce as much as truly elite players that have a high USG% - fact. He doesn't look to pass when there is a good pass, he looks to get rid of the ball when there is too much pressure on him. So he doesn't produce as much as the top 3 players in the league? Because those are the only truly elite players. Thats not an argument against him being top ten last season at all.




Respectible - even very very good? Yes. Elite? No. There were 13 NBA players that had a higher WS/48 in 1997 or more minutes played on the season. Thanks for making my point.

lmfao thats funny because i said respectable. Thanks for agreeing with me. You also missed the part where I delicately explained to you why i don't give a crap about WS or WS/48 in this conversation. Manu Ginobili is third ALL TIME in WS/48, by your logic he's the third best player of all time.


Like I wrote, I'll buy him in the 10-15 bracket last year, but not top 3, 5, 7.

You can buy him wherever you want, the fact remains this was the year he made his way into the top ten. I never argued for 3 or 5.

Kashmir13579
10-21-2013, 04:00 PM
Uhh Dirk won with Tyson snd a bunch of role players. What is Melo's excuse when he has "th most explosive player in NBA history" in Amare, "the second greatest scorer ever behind Melo in JR, and the "best SG in the NBA" in Iman.

This is either brilliant sarcasm or utter stupidity. Can't tell which.

Guppyfighter
10-21-2013, 06:42 PM
Except not everyone defending him was a Knick fan, just recognizing game.

Yeah, you also have Illusionist and Amoser.

Guppyfighter
10-21-2013, 06:42 PM
This is either brilliant sarcasm or utter stupidity. Can't tell which.

He's making fun of how Knick fans act. It's satire.

Kashmir13579
10-21-2013, 06:54 PM
He's making fun of how Knick fans act. It's satire.

When D-Leethal baptized you by fire earlier, was that satire?

Guppyfighter
10-21-2013, 06:56 PM
When D-Leethal baptized you by fire earlier, was that satire?

If baptized by fire, you mean he showed me that he actually understands what icing the pick and roll means. Sure. I was wrong. He's not completely ignorant to what goes on the court. His ability to actually quantify what matters is lacking. But he understands strategies, well, at least that one.

Kashmir13579
10-21-2013, 07:44 PM
You were embarrassed by D-Leethal, plain and simple.

Guppyfighter
10-21-2013, 08:00 PM
You were embarrassed by D-Leethal, plain and simple.

Wouldn't that be decided by me more than anything? I said D-Lee didn't know what was happening on the court and I asked about two basic strategies. He showed that he did know them.

I am not sure where I am supposed to be embarrassed here.

Hawkeye15
10-21-2013, 08:12 PM
I would rank him 10-11 going into this season with a healthy Love and Rose joining the party.

koreancabbage
10-22-2013, 09:37 AM
I would rank him 10-11 going into this season with a healthy Love and Rose joining the party.

Melo is def on the fringe in the upcoming season. Another year, another disappointing playoff run.

Love and Rose will certainly add some power to that top 10 list.

nycericanguy
10-22-2013, 10:40 AM
Melo is def on the fringe in the upcoming season. Another year, another disappointing playoff run.

Love and Rose will certainly add some power to that top 10 list.

I find it odd that before the season everyone always says things like "Knicks are 6-8 seed", and now this year it's "Knicks are the 5th seed, IND,BK, CHI & MIA are all better", and everyone has IND above them.

But then in the same breathe they expect Melo to beat teams that are supposedly so much better or else it's a disappointment? You guys need to make up your minds...lol. If IND is so much better how can it be a disappointment if Melo can't beat them? It's not like he lost to the Bucks or an inferior team right?

bagwell368
10-22-2013, 11:21 AM
I find it odd that before the season everyone always says things like "Knicks are 6-8 seed", and now this year it's "Knicks are the 5th seed, IND,BK, CHI & MIA are all better", and everyone has IND above them.

But then in the same breathe they expect Melo to beat teams that are supposedly so much better or else it's a disappointment? You guys need to make up your minds...lol. If IND is so much better how can it be a disappointment if Melo can't beat them? It's not like he lost to the Bucks or an inferior team right?

It's probably annoyance. If the media and NYK fanatics were not always trying to shove him down everyones throat, he'd get less crap. Live by sword - die by sword.

bagwell368
10-22-2013, 11:32 AM
I'm talking about THIS YEAR if i haven't made that exhaustingly clear to you by now. 'Melo's offensive rating THIS YEAR is better than Kobe's has been in the last three years. You're right that 'Melo is often a lack luster defender and routinely takes possessions off. His defense has improved in my eyes thanks to Mike Woodson. I'm hoping for further improvement this seaso, but i won't hold my breath.

Kobe is in decline - has been since the end of 2008-2009. Interesting you have to use him for your comparisons.


So he doesn't produce as much as the top 3 players in the league? Because those are the only truly elite players. Thats not an argument against him being top ten last season at all.

It's more than 3.


lmfao thats funny because i said respectable. Thanks for agreeing with me.

Nobody being discussed for top 10 can grade out as just "respectable" that's bizarre.


You also missed the part where I delicately explained to you why i don't give a crap about WS or WS/48 in this conversation. Manu Ginobili is third ALL TIME in WS/48, by your logic he's the third best player of all time.

Let me point out to you that you quoted his WS/48 in his favor, meaning that you endorse the stat when it favors your arguments - how revealing and pathetic can one get?


You can buy him wherever you want, the fact remains this was the year he made his way into the top ten. I never argued for 3 or 5.

Sorry, Knick fans in this thread are generally interchangable to me and most of your brethren have him higher. I take precious little time on these things. It's enough to take "lowlight" arguments and beat them into dirt. Your points might seem more reasonable at first glance than some of them, but you're just as stubborn as they are in the final analysis.

koreancabbage
10-22-2013, 11:42 AM
I find it odd that before the season everyone always says things like "Knicks are 6-8 seed", and now this year it's "Knicks are the 5th seed, IND,BK, CHI & MIA are all better", and everyone has IND above them.

But then in the same breathe they expect Melo to beat teams that are supposedly so much better or else it's a disappointment? You guys need to make up your minds...lol. If IND is so much better how can it be a disappointment if Melo can't beat them? It's not like he lost to the Bucks or an inferior team right?

no, its the Knicks fans who believe a high ranking in the regular season translates into success in the playoffs - esp last year. regular season means nothing.

i think the Knicks are going to be in the upper echelon in the East during the regular season. but they aren't going far in the playoffs.

its just something we expect every year from all of Melo's teams. its just the history of what happened.

i mean ya'll said they will go far into the playoffs the last few years (Knicks fans believing them Knicks could have beaten the Heat in their first or second trip to the Finals years) but they aren't disciplined enough to take out Indiana, Chicago, Miami in a playoff series - who are clearly the favorites as contenders of the East. Mind you they might even have trouble with Brooklyn as well this year as well.

MassoDio
10-22-2013, 11:47 AM
Melo is one of my top five favorite players in the league, but this thread is hilarious.

The complaint is that that ESPN predicts that THIS UPCOMING SEASON, not last season, but THIS UPCOMING SEASON, Melo will be 15th best player in the league.

People mock ESPN as hacks, yet get all pissy about what they say. If you think they are hacks, then don't get mad about what they write...just ignore it, since you don't think they know what they are talking about. I am in software programming, and I don't get pissy about an end-user saying how the software would be better if it did this or that. They don't know how it works, so there is no reason to get upset about their opinion.

Then, in order to justify the complaining, the argument turns to what Melo did LAST YEAR, which has no bearing on the ESPN rankings at all. These are predictions about NEXT SEASON, not a narrative or ranking based on LAST SEASON. So the argument that he was a top 10 player last year holds very little water. Yes, last season's performance should be factored in when predicting next season, but it is not a large portion that needs to be factored.

I love watching Melo play. I think he has top 10 talent. I don't think there are a whole lot of guys who could guard him 1 on 1 with much success. But he is also a chucker at times, he can be a black hole on offense, he doesn't pass the ball when he should (All of which can make him a lot of fun to watch as an individual player, like AI was.) and there are arguably 14 better players in the league at many times during the season. So this arbitrary PREDICTION about NEXT season isn't unreasonable, and should probably not cause Knick fans to have this much a fit.

This is the way the complaints in here look.

"ESPN writers are hacks, they don't know what they are talking about EVER. But this one time, because it is about a player on my team, I am going to take what they say to heart and get mad about it. And now that that is done, I am going to disregard anything anyone else has to say, no matter how factual, if it doesn't line up with my opinion. That is because my OPINION is a better OPINION than someone else's, and I can't be open to anyone else's.

Just because I am a fan of said player, that means that IT IS NOT POSSIBLE that someone else is allowed to think that that player is not as good as I think he is. I don't care what the stats say because as long as the stats say what I want them to say, I will use them and throw them in your face until I turn blue and die. BUT if they say something that goes against my opinion and helps another person't opinion that I don't agree with, I am just going to say these things, because that is all I have in rebuttal. "Stats aren't the end all be all in Basketball. Stats don't tell the whole story. Oh you must be one of those stat nerds. You don't watch basketball. Stats are skewed. This stat or That stat are useless, are flawed, need to be used in some different context than what the person who brought it up is using it, or my favorite, YOU'RE A HATER."

Ugh, it would be so nice to see an intelligent conversation in the NBA forum at some point so that fans could discuss teams other than their own without the cliches I mentioned above. But sadly, that can't happen with the fanboys that troll in this forum.

colinskik
10-22-2013, 12:05 PM
Let me point out to you that you quoted his WS/48 in his favor, meaning that you endorse the stat when it favors your arguments - how revealing and pathetic can one get?

I haven't followed the entire argument between you two but if I may comment about this one point here, he makes a great assessment about Manu and his WS/48 ranking him as one of the all time greats and you don't address it whatsoever.

nycericanguy
10-22-2013, 12:10 PM
no, its the Knicks fans who believe a high ranking in the regular season translates into success in the playoffs - esp last year. regular season means nothing.

i think the Knicks are going to be in the upper echelon in the East during the regular season. but they aren't going far in the playoffs.

its just something we expect every year from all of Melo's teams. its just the history of what happened.

i mean ya'll said they will go far into the playoffs the last few years (Knicks fans believing them Knicks could have beaten the Heat in their first or second trip to the Finals years) but they aren't disciplined enough to take out Indiana, Chicago, Miami in a playoff series - who are clearly the favorites as contenders of the East. Mind you they might even have trouble with Brooklyn as well this year as well.

Should Knick fans expect to lose in the playoffs? What exactly does PSD want from us? As a TOR fan do you not think you're going to make the playoffs every year/? Of course we're going to think we're going to win in the playoffs. The IND series was very close, could have gone either way. To beat MIA will be tough, but we have a shot.

I don't think it's a matter of discipline, well maybe with JR yea, but we literally got NOTHING out of Felton, JR, Novak, Kidd, Camby, or Tyson against IND... that's literally half the team. This year I think we're much better suited to face IND, we don't have a bunch of 40 year olds on the bench anymore. So hopefully Tyson can go into the playoffs healthy, JR as well.

And if you think NY will be in the upper tier this year of the east you are certainly in the minority.

Last year most had us pegged 6-8, this year most are saying we are 5th best in the east.

Guppyfighter
10-22-2013, 12:16 PM
JR will always be a ball stopper in the playoffs. And Melo will always be unfairly blamed when JR goes 5-19.

nycericanguy
10-22-2013, 12:18 PM
JR will always be a ball stopper in the playoffs. And Melo will always be unfairly blamed when JR goes 5-19.

THe way Hardaway & SHump have looked, I would look to trade JR for someone like Gortat or Asik, he only makes $6m so its a reasonable deal. I just don't trust him at all come playoff time. From what I've seen, I really trust Bargs more as a #2 option, Bargs at least gets to the ft line at will and puts opposing bigs in foul trouble. JR is useless in the playoffs when his shot is off. And Bargs has shown he can shoot close to 50% as a #2, JR is always in the low 40's.

Beltrans Mole
10-22-2013, 12:31 PM
Melo will have another great season it doesn't really matter what anyone says.

Kashmir13579
10-22-2013, 12:34 PM
Kobe is in decline - has been since the end of 2008-2009. Interesting you have to use him for your comparisons. I asked you out of curiosity to see where your head was at. You did not disappoint. Kobe's career ORtg is exactly the same as the one Carmelo posted last season.


It's more than 3.
I'll follow this empty statement with another empty statement. No it isn't.




Nobody being discussed for top 10 can grade out as just "respectable" that's bizarre.


lmfao only if WSs are your own personal bible. Haven't we done this already? You are talking in circles.



Let me point out to you that you quoted his WS/48 in his favor, meaning that you endorse the stat when it favors your arguments - how revealing and pathetic can one get?
The problem with angry, ignorant people like you is that you can never convince them of it. Rather than actually attempting to counter my post, you take irrelevant cheap shot jabs like this. YOU brought up WSs. Its there for all to see. All i did was explain to you why i don't give credence to such stats in this debate, (at least not as the crux) and show you that Carmelo's WS/48 were actually completely respectable. I never once mentioned them as a reason for him being top 10. You are attacking me behind a subtext that never existed.


Sorry, Knick fans in this thread are generally interchangable to me and most of your brethren have him higher. I take precious little time on these things. It's enough to take "lowlight" arguments and beat them into dirt. Your points might seem more reasonable at first glance than some of them, but you're just as stubborn as they are in the final analysis
So basically, what you are saying is that since i'm actually making reasonable points, you can't be bothered to have a reasonable debate - that you only have "time" for lowly Knick fans, which you can easily beat "into dirt". That, my friend, makes you the worst kind of strawman.

FlashBolt
10-22-2013, 12:38 PM
Melo is top 10.. This is pathetic. Leading scorer is top 10 regardless of how you put it. Can you name 10 players better than Melo without lying to yourself?

Kashmir13579
10-22-2013, 12:40 PM
JR was so injured in the playoffs that he needed two knee surgeries this off season. Tyson, our second best player was non-existent due to a neck injury. Anyone talking about the Knicks playoff run like its a fair indication of 'Melo's abilities are talking completely out of there arse.

bagwell368
10-22-2013, 01:17 PM
I haven't followed the entire argument between you two but if I may comment about this one point here, he makes a great assessment about Manu and his WS/48 ranking him as one of the all time greats and you don't address it whatsoever.

Why should I be required to answer every point pro Melo posters here are making when they ignore and short shrift what those that place Melo correctly write? Why don't you concern yourself with that issue? Ahhhhh.... because you're biased perhaps?

Now to blow this lame response out of the water:

1. Manu is 11th all time in WS/48, not 3rd.
2. Manu has averaged 27.5 MPG in his career, so he doesn't log starter minutes, meaning he's fresher. In fact a quick check seems to show you have to get to Don Nelson at #60 before you get to a player on the top WS/48 list that played so few minutes per game.
3. His career started when he was 25, so some weak years earlier in his career didn't occur to pull him down.
4. He played on a superb team with lots of wins (one top 8 player, and another top 100 player) - meaning lots of win shares to go around.
5. He had one decline year last year. If he kept playing a few more years, he'd be well out of the top 20 all time - and that's if you accept a 27.5 MPG player as a starter in the first place.

bagwell368
10-22-2013, 01:25 PM
Melo is top 10.. This is pathetic. Leading scorer is top 10 regardless of how you put it. Can you name 10 players better than Melo without lying to yourself?

In a New York minute:

James
Durant
Paul
Harden
Parker
Griffen
Gasol
Westbrook
Duncan
Lopez
Wade
DWill
Hill
Conley
Curry

At least 11 of those 15 were better last year.

There should be a large demerit on Melo for missing 15 games. Wade missed two less, Parker 1 more - but they played better than Melo so they get on the list before him. Some of these guys were not as good every minuted on the floor, but some had 300-400 more minutes played - if you don't think that counts, you're being ridiculous.

BTW scoring leaders are often not top 10 players, where did you get that nonsensical notion that they are?

D-Leethal
10-22-2013, 01:31 PM
Melo is top 10.. This is pathetic. Leading scorer is top 10 regardless of how you put it. Can you name 10 players better than Melo without lying to yourself?

In a New York minute:

James
Durant
Paul
Harden
Parker
Griffen
Gasol
Westbrook
Duncan
Lopez
Wade
DWill
Hill
Conley
Curry

At least 11 of those 15 were better last year.

There should be a large demerit on Melo for missing 15 games. Wade missed two less, Parker 1 more - but they played better than Melo so they get on the list before him. Some of these guys were not as good every minuted on the floor, but some had 300-400 more minutes played - if you don't think that counts, you're being ridiculous.

BTW scoring leaders are often not top 10 players, where did you get that nonsensical notion that they are?

LOL do you honestly think more than 5 of those dudes are carrying that Knicks squad to 54 wins? Brook and Dwill couldn't do it together yet BOTH are better?

You should reevaluate your criteria of 'who's better' if you truly believe half those guys are better than Melo.

Putting up prettier stats does not equal better. But its clear your one of those guys who takes stats at face value to make your decisions for you...

Kashmir13579
10-22-2013, 01:31 PM
Why should I be required to answer every point pro Melo posters here are making when they ignore and short shrift what those that place Melo correctly write? Why don't you concern yourself with that issue? Ahhhhh.... because you're biased perhaps?

Now to blow this lame response out of the water:

1. Manu is 11th all time in WS/48, not 3rd.
2. Manu has averaged 27.5 MPG in his career, so he doesn't log starter minutes, meaning he's fresher. In fact a quick check seems to show you have to get to Don Nelson at #60 before you get to a player on the top WS/48 list that played so few minutes per game.
3. His career started when he was 25, so some weak years earlier in his career didn't occur to pull him down.
4. He played on a superb team with lots of wins (one top 8 player, and another top 100 player) - meaning lots of win shares to go around.
5. He had one decline year last year. If he kept playing a few more years, he'd be well out of the top 20 all time - and that's if you accept a 27.5 MPG player as a starter in the first place.

My mistake, i don't know why i thought 3rd, but i knew it was ridiculously high.

But thanks for adding to my point about WSs and WS/48 not being completely fair barometers when ranking players. Clearly you realize a lot of factors go into it. Its funny because a couple pages back i said the same thing to you, using significantly less words to do so, but nonetheless.

KnickaBocka.44
10-22-2013, 01:47 PM
no, its the Knicks fans who believe a high ranking in the regular season translates into success in the playoffs - esp last year. regular season means nothing.

i think the Knicks are going to be in the upper echelon in the East during the regular season. but they aren't going far in the playoffs.

its just something we expect every year from all of Melo's teams. its just the history of what happened.

i mean ya'll said they will go far into the playoffs the last few years (Knicks fans believing them Knicks could have beaten the Heat in their first or second trip to the Finals years) but they aren't disciplined enough to take out Indiana, Chicago, Miami in a playoff series - who are clearly the favorites as contenders of the East. Mind you they might even have trouble with Brooklyn as well this year as well.

Generally speaking, it does. Please show proof otherwise. Sure, some lower seeds beat higher seeds but that is why they are considered upsets, and aren't the norm.

BklynKnicks3
10-22-2013, 02:36 PM
Thank god slam just did a legit list and Melo is 4th all these idiot fantasy fans who treat basketball like a math class get put in there place by legit basketball minds

Guppyfighter
10-22-2013, 02:46 PM
LOL do you honestly think more than 5 of those dudes are carrying that Knicks squad to 54 wins? Brook and Dwill couldn't do it together yet BOTH are better?

You should reevaluate your criteria of 'who's better' if you truly believe half those guys are better than Melo.

Putting up prettier stats does not equal better. But its clear your one of those guys who takes stats at face value to make your decisions for you...


Oh, right Melo carried the Knicks to 54 wins. He wasn't surrounded by three point shooting and an elite center that fit perfectly together with him.

Clearly the Knicks whole team was as bad as Gerald Wallace and Reggie Evans together.

Guppyfighter
10-22-2013, 02:46 PM
Thank god slam just did a legit list and Melo is 4th all these idiot fantasy fans who treat basketball like a math class get put in there place by legit basketball minds

Fourth? Wow. That's all kinds of awful. Funny that you say fantasy basketball because the only reason I have heard for Melo being top five is because of his scoring.

nycericanguy
10-22-2013, 03:48 PM
Oh, right Melo carried the Knicks to 54 wins. He wasn't surrounded by three point shooting and an elite center that fit perfectly together with him.

Clearly the Knicks whole team was as bad as Gerald Wallace and Reggie Evans together.

Melo doesn't seem to get enough credit, if any, for all the open 3's he generates. There's no one on that Knick team that really commanded a double besides Melo, and Felton isn't exactly a great playmaker.

Chronz
10-22-2013, 04:11 PM
LOL do you honestly think more than 5 of those dudes are carrying that Knicks squad to 54 wins? Brook and Dwill couldn't do it together yet BOTH are better?
Why not? We just saw a team with 2-All-NBA teammates struggle to stay above .500. Its that much of a team game.


You should reevaluate your criteria of 'who's better' if you truly believe half those guys are better than Melo.

Putting up prettier stats does not equal better. But its clear your one of those guys who takes stats at face value to make your decisions for you...
How do you decide how much wins a player is worth to your team anyways? Is that always the most important barometer?

D-Leethal
10-22-2013, 04:18 PM
Melo doesn't seem to get enough credit, if any, for all the open 3's he generates. There's no one on that Knick team that really commanded a double besides Melo, and Felton isn't exactly a great playmaker.

There is no way to get open threes without forcing a scrambling defense - the only way to force a scrambling defense is to force a collapse/double team. Melo is obviously the only guy who can do that on our squad.

Role playing 3 point shooters with a defensive C aren't getting you 40 wins let alone 54. Knicks aren't even .500 without Melo.