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Mile High Champ
10-13-2013, 09:40 AM
Hey guys, It is that time of year again! Once again we kick of the PSD NBA Off-Season Player Rankings. This is the 6th year I have done this on PSD and it always brings some great discussion and debate. Please keep things civil and discuss who you feel is most fitting and deserving of being voted in each poll.

A lot has changed since last season. Lebron James and the Miami Heat are back to back NBA champions after an exciting 7 game series win over the Spurs. Let start the discussion since lots has changed since the start of last season. Please TRY AND VOTE FOR THE BEST PLAYER AND DON'T BE A HOMER. I will leave the poll open for one day and than we can carry on to the next best player at that position. I will add more players after each round. I have also included the results of those last 5 years so everyone can see how much things have changed...Enjoy.


In terms of adding players to the poll, it will be done like this.

As soon as Tony Parkerl goes off the board, I will add other PG's.
As soon as Dwyane Wade goes off the board, I will add other SG's
As soon as Kevin Love goes off the board, I will add other PF's.

And so on and so on..

This is to ensure that players that won their respective positions get a higher place in the list. One of the goals of these polls is to maintain some continuity between the polls we completed to the final player poll we are currently voting.

2013 NBA Off-Season Player Rankings

1) Lebron James
2) Kevin Durant
3) Chris Paul
4) Tim Duncan
5) James Harden
6) Kobe Bryant
7) Carmelo Anthony
8) Tony Parker
9)
10)
11)
12)
13)
14)
15)


2012 NBA Off-Season Player Rankings

1) Lebron James
2) Kevin Durant
3) Dwight Howard
4) Chris Paul
5) Kobe Bryant
6) Dwyane Wade
7) Kevin Love
8) Derrick Rose
9) Dirk Nowitzki
10) Russell Westbrook
11) Carmelo Anthony
12) Deron Williams
13) Andrew Bynum
14) Rajon Rondo
15) Tony Parker & Kevin Garnett

2011 Off-Season Best Player Rankings

1) Lebron James
2) Dwight Howard
3) Dwyane Wade
4) Chris Paul
5) Dirk Nowitzki
6) Kobe Bryant
7) Kevin Durant
8) Derrick Rose
9) Deron Williams
10) Carmelo Anthony

2010 Off-Season Best Player Rankings

1) Kobe Bryant
2) Lebron James
3) Dwyane Wade
4) Kevin Durant
5) Chris Paul
6) Dwight Howard
7) Carmelo Anthony
8) Dirk Nowitzki
9) Deron Williams
10) Tim Duncan - Pau Gasol Tie


2009 Off-Season Best Player Rankings

1) Kobe Bryant
2) Lebron James
3) Dwayne Wade
4) Chris Paul
5) Dwight Howard
6) Tim Duncan
7) Dirk Nowitzki
8) Carmelo Anthony
9) Kevin Garnett
10) Brandon Roy

Minimal
10-13-2013, 10:08 AM
Either Wade or Westbrook, going with Westbrook, he deserves it.

chi-townlove1
10-13-2013, 10:09 AM
How soon you people forget about rose

Chronz
10-13-2013, 02:24 PM
Dwights getting punished for playing hurt

xxplayerxx23
10-13-2013, 02:38 PM
How soon you people forget about rose

Wasn't eligible due to missing the whole year

SugeKnight
10-13-2013, 03:08 PM
Westbrook

DR_1
10-13-2013, 03:50 PM
K-Love again

seikou8
10-13-2013, 04:00 PM
Dwights getting punished for playing hurt

that and fact that no one likes him he is top 10 so dwight then wade

D-Leethal
10-13-2013, 04:51 PM
Dwights getting punished for playing hurt

Quite a double standard given your perception of Wade's status in the league based on last season.

Bruno
10-13-2013, 05:52 PM
westbrook.

BklynKnicks3
10-13-2013, 09:13 PM
this list is awful after duncan was 4

Chronz
10-13-2013, 11:26 PM
Quite a double standard given your perception of Wade's status in the league based on last season.
I've given Wade 2 seasons now to enter a post season healthy for a change. Hes already being sheltered and having his minutes massaged and still cant do it. Whereas Dwight has been an iron man throughout his career and saw a steady improvement in his athletic ability throughout the season. Simply put, Im giving Dwight the benefit of the doubt that I no longer feel comfortable giving to Wade. Im not sure what Dwights new 100% will look like but Im confident it will produce a better season than Wade, and the bump I give guys who are elite playoff performers no longer applies for Wade.

mrblisterdundee
10-14-2013, 01:11 AM
Dwights getting punished for playing hurt

I have to agree with this. Even injured, Dwight Howard still assembled some of the best stats of any center in the league last year. Now he's more recovered and ready to play defensive anchor in Houston, and environment much better for him than Los Angeles.
Howard's kind of a douche, but his potential this season warrants him being picked over Russell Westbrook, which is no slight to him.

D-Leethal
10-14-2013, 09:26 AM
I've given Wade 2 seasons now to enter a post season healthy for a change. Hes already being sheltered and having his minutes massaged and still cant do it. Whereas Dwight has been an iron man throughout his career and saw a steady improvement in his athletic ability throughout the season. Simply put, Im giving Dwight the benefit of the doubt that I no longer feel comfortable giving to Wade. Im not sure what Dwights new 100% will look like but Im confident it will produce a better season than Wade, and the bump I give guys who are elite playoff performers no longer applies for Wade.

Did I miss the part where Dwight entered the playoffs healthy the past two seasons?

I'm not sure a 100% Dwight is better than a 100% Wade, but I am more confident Dwight will be 100% over Wade.

I voted for Dwight, just thought it was pretty ironic, and still do. Simply put, your penalizing one guy for playing injured while propping up the other for playing injured.

D-Leethal
10-14-2013, 09:29 AM
And calling Dwight an elite playoff performer over Wade is a joke. Wade has had some of the best playoff series of any player in history en route to titles as #1 option. Despite being noticeably injured, Wade showed up everytime his team needed to, got his knee drained like every other day and still put up 3 very, very good games in the finals out of the last 4. Thats what elite playoff performers do - step it up when it matters most whether your injured or not. Dwight was too busy getting himself ejected in elimination games and sulking every chance he got.

ManningToTyree
10-14-2013, 12:39 PM
I'll go with Wade. Can make a case for Dwight or Russy

Chronz
10-14-2013, 12:44 PM
Did I miss the part where Dwight entered the playoffs healthy the past two seasons?
You honestly didn't watch these playoffs? He suffered 1 injury that kept him out of the playoffs 1 year(thats an issue of timing rather than inconsistent health Wade has shown), that injury carried into this past season and he looked better with every month, this happened to coincide with his teams best stretch of play. Why would I value a clear ascension in health as equally as Wades constant recovery and injury routine?


I'm not sure a 100% Dwight is better than a 100% Wade, but I am more confident Dwight will be 100% over Wade.
My thoughts exactly.


I voted for Dwight, just thought it was pretty ironic, and still do. Simply put, your penalizing one guy for playing injured while propping up the other for playing injured.
Simply put, put more thought into it. In actuality, Im penalizing Wade for his inability to remain healthy despite an environment where hes no longer carrying the big load, having his minutes massaged. Whereas Dwight entered the season banged up, played through other ailments and still got progressively better. Why would I value inconsistent health over a guy whos getting better with every month?

nycericanguy
10-14-2013, 12:50 PM
Lets not act like Wade is playing 28-30mpg like Duncan and being held out on back to backs... Duncan is definitely being babied and massaged.

Wade averaged nearly 35mpg and put up 21/5/5... so while he might not have to carry the load that's still a pretty damn good output from him.

again, you're making a bigger deal of his injuries because he's over 30, but Wade has always been one to miss some games.

Chronz
10-14-2013, 12:56 PM
And calling Dwight an elite playoff performer over Wade is a joke.
Just another case of your misunderstanding. I never said Dwight was a better playoff performer. What I DID say was that the bump I give playoff performers becomes null and void when you've proven unable to enter the post season (2 years now) healthy despite having the advantages of a team that can manage your regular season strain. Again, I never said Dwight was a better playoff performer, just that I cant give Wade the benefit of the doubt based on the fact that it hasn't held up for 2 years now. Believe me, I want Wade to have a vintage season. Same with Dwight. I just dont know what each's new 100% looks like, so instead of going with the cripple, Im taking the guy who I feel has a better chance of remaining healthy. Its that close of a comparison.



Despite being noticeably injured, Wade showed up everytime his team needed to, got his knee drained like every other day and still put up 3 very, very good games in the finals out of the last 4. Thats what elite playoff performers do - step it up when it matters most whether your injured or not. Dwight was too busy getting himself ejected in elimination games and sulking every chance he got.
I dont buy the romantic theory that he showed up when he needed to. That doesn't excuse the very real detrimental effect him not being up to par had on the squad. Had he showed up earlier, the team doesn't face the wall and require miracles just to survive, I think the team needed him to show up the way old Wade used to. If you were to swap Wade and Dwight, I think the Heat cruise to a title because they have already proven capable of at least buying Wade enough time for him to finally show up.

mightybosstone
10-14-2013, 12:57 PM
this list is awful after duncan was 4

I think this is the first time I've ever agreed with you, but I agree with this. Duncan at No. 4 is ****ing insane. I have an insane amount of respect for Duncan, but he's not even the best player on his own team. Duncan is a borderline top 10 guy at this point in his career and certainly shouldn't have gone as high as 4. How the **** voters justified that decision I'd like to know.

Chronz
10-14-2013, 01:05 PM
Lets not act like Wade is playing 28-30mpg like Duncan and being held out on back to backs... Duncan is definitely being babied and massaged.
Agreed. Thats why Wade not being 100% (hell he wasn't even 70%) was a harder obstacle to overcome than people realize.



Wade averaged nearly 35mpg and put up 21/5/5... so while he might not have to carry the load that's still a pretty damn good output from him.
His regular season isn't why Im taking him out. Its because of the shape he shows up in come playoffs despite the relatively small burden he carries in comparison. Its such a close argument that I dont take offense to you choosing Wade, I just dont think its such a clear cut decision given the differing strengths and viable health outlook.


again, you're making a bigger deal of his injuries because he's over 30, but Wade has always been one to miss some games.
Players that always miss games tend to get worse with age. How is this helping your argument?

Chronz
10-14-2013, 01:08 PM
I think this is the first time I've ever agreed with you, but I agree with this. Duncan at No. 4 is ****ing insane. I have an insane amount of respect for Duncan, but he's not even the best player on his own team. Duncan is a borderline top 10 guy at this point in his career and certainly shouldn't have gone as high as 4. How the **** voters justified that decision I'd like to know.

Whats your top 10 look like?

mightybosstone
10-14-2013, 01:59 PM
Whats your top 10 look like?

Based on the last couple of seasons and without too much thought put into it, my top 10ish guys would something like this, with the last 5-6 guys being pretty much interchangeable.

1. Lebron James
2. Kevin Durant
3. Chris Paul
4. James Harden
5. Tony Parker
6. Carmelo Anthony
7. Kobe Bryant
8. Russell Westbrook
9. Stephen Curry
10. Tim Duncan
11. Dwight Howard
12. Dwyane Wade
13. Marc Gasol

The top three guys are fairly obvious and should go exactly in that order. After that, I think Harden, Parker, Anthony, Bryant and Westbrook are in that second tier of elite players. You could probably make a case for moving them around, but I do think those are the next five guys who should be on anyone's top list.

After that there's a slew of really good players who just don't quite crack the previous tier for whatever reason: Cury, Duncan, Howard, Wade and Gasol. Curry still has room for improvement in his game and is a sieve on defense, Duncan isn't the go-to offensive player he was 5-10 years ago, Howard has been plagued by injuries and is coming off his worst season in years, Wade was a ghost for much of the playoffs and Gasol has yet to evolve into an elite offensive option.

You could make a case for any of those five guys to crack the top 10, but I don't think any of them should be in the top four like Duncan was. PSD voters clearly were overrating Duncan's Finals performance in a postseason that would barely rank in his top 10 postseason performances of his career. And they clearly are underrating Parker, who has been the go-to guy on that roster for a few years.

tredigs
10-14-2013, 03:12 PM
Based on the last couple of seasons and without too much thought put into it, my top 10ish guys would something like this, with the last 5-6 guys being pretty much interchangeable.

1. Lebron James
2. Kevin Durant
3. Chris Paul
4. James Harden
5. Tony Parker
6. Carmelo Anthony
7. Kobe Bryant
8. Russell Westbrook
9. Stephen Curry
10. Tim Duncan
11. Dwight Howard
12. Dwyane Wade
13. Marc Gasol

The top three guys are fairly obvious and should go exactly in that order. After that, I think Harden, Parker, Anthony, Bryant and Westbrook are in that second tier of elite players. You could probably make a case for moving them around, but I do think those are the next five guys who should be on anyone's top list.

After that there's a slew of really good players who just don't quite crack the previous tier for whatever reason: Cury, Duncan, Howard, Wade and Gasol. Curry still has room for improvement in his game and is a sieve on defense, Duncan isn't the go-to offensive player he was 5-10 years ago, Howard has been plagued by injuries and is coming off his worst season in years, Wade was a ghost for much of the playoffs and Gasol has yet to evolve into an elite offensive option.

You could make a case for any of those five guys to crack the top 10, but I don't think any of them should be in the top four like Duncan was. PSD voters clearly were overrating Duncan's Finals performance in a postseason that would barely rank in his top 10 postseason performances of his career. And they clearly are underrating Parker, who has been the go-to guy on that roster for a few years.

What do you think of Tim showing an advantage over Tony in PER (Duncan coming in #6 at 24.3, Parker #9 at 23) despite the stats inability to account for his massive defensive advantage over Parker? They showed similarly in WS/48 (Parker slightly ahead), but Duncan blew him out in Wins Produced and RAPM. And it's not like there MPG or games played were much different. They ended up with nearly identical total minutes played. To me, Parker's the more replaceable player on the Spurs last season if you're trying to win a ring. He simply doesn't have the ability to effect the game as much as Duncan due to Tim's still-large offensive impact and massive rebounding/defensive impact. Duncan had a resurgence year health/energy wise, and somehow is still improving his craft and became a high end FT shooter out of nowhere. I'm not saying going forward he'll be better (tho' I don't doubt it), but this year he was imo.

Also, are Harden, TP, Melo, or Kobe any less of a sieve defensively than Curry (who improved over his earlier seasons)?

mightybosstone
10-14-2013, 05:07 PM
What do you think of Tim showing an advantage over Tony in PER (Duncan coming in #6 at 24.3, Parker #9 at 23) despite the stats inability to account for his massive defensive advantage over Parker? They showed similarly in WS/48 (Parker slightly ahead), but Duncan blew him out in Wins Produced and RAPM. And it's not like there MPG or games played were much different. They ended up with nearly identical total minutes played.
Duncan's edge in PER is comparable to Parker's edge in WS/48. Parker also played three more minutes per game last season, posted an absolutely superior TS% and is far more integral to the Spurs offense. You can make the defensive argument in Duncan's favor, which I'd agree with, but Parker is every bit as valuable on the offensive side of the ball. Also Parker wasn't nearly as bad defensively last season as he's been in previous years. His .085 points per possession is serviceable.


To me, Parker's the more replaceable player on the Spurs last season if you're trying to win a ring. He simply doesn't have the ability to effect the game as much as Duncan due to Tim's still-large offensive impact and massive rebounding/defensive impact. Duncan had a resurgence year health/energy wise, and somehow is still improving his craft and became a high end FT shooter out of nowhere. I'm not saying going forward he'll be better (tho' I don't doubt it), but this year he was imo.
I don't think you can argue that Duncan's defensive impact is necessarily greater than Parker's impact on offense. What you also have to factor in is a player's ability to score late in games. Parker was second in the league in clutch points last postseason, and sixth in the league in clutch points per game during the regular season, while shooting 47% in those situations.


Also, are Harden, TP, Melo, or Kobe any less of a sieve defensively than Curry (who improved over his earlier seasons)?
Not necessarily, but I'd give those players an edge offensively and in other areas. Defense alone is not the reason Curry was ranked below those players. That was simply a quick run through of my rankings off the top of my head.

Chronz
10-14-2013, 05:44 PM
Duncan's edge in PER is comparable to Parker's edge in WS/48.
Except when it comes to WS/48, we KNOW Parker is getting an unfair boost in his defensive scores that should likely be attributed to Duncan. I would say hes an average defender, decent defender at best. Certainly not an impact defender. Whereas Duncan is a strong 2-way player.


What you also have to factor in is a player's ability to score late in games. Parker was second in the league in clutch points last postseason, and sixth in the league in clutch points per game during the regular season, while shooting 47% in those situations.
What arbitrary measure of time/score are "clutch points" showing us and how efficient is the teams defense in those same situations? Either way, is it enough of an edge to decide anything? Is this comparison so close that clutch scoring actually factors in? I cant see myself deciding overall worth on such a small sample of the game that has proven to be random in the past.

tredigs
10-14-2013, 05:53 PM
Duncan's edge in PER is comparable to Parker's edge in WS/48. Parker also played three more minutes per game last season, posted an absolutely superior TS% and is far more integral to the Spurs offense. You can make the defensive argument in Duncan's favor, which I'd agree with, but Parker is every bit as valuable on the offensive side of the ball. Also Parker wasn't nearly as bad defensively last season as he's been in previous years. His .085 points per possession is serviceable.


I don't think you can argue that Duncan's defensive impact is necessarily greater than Parker's impact on offense. What you also have to factor in is a player's ability to score late in games. Parker was second in the league in clutch points last postseason, and sixth in the league in clutch points per game during the regular season, while shooting 47% in those situations.


Not necessarily, but I'd give those players an edge offensively and in other areas. Defense alone is not the reason Curry was ranked below those players. That was simply a quick run through of my rankings off the top of my head.

I think I could definitely argue that Duncan's impact defensively is greater than the difference in their impact offensively. Duncan and TP each carry the scoring load on the team on a nightly basis (17.8 and 20.3 ppg respectively with Kawhi coming in a distant 3rd at 11.9 ppg). Along with that scoring he's giving you nearly 3 apg and 2 offensive boards. Tony had his best season to date and also gives you a respectable 3:1 assist:TO on 7.6 apg, but he's not CP3, Nash or even Calderon from a playmaking standpoint. He also won't get you an offensive rebound or the ability to stretch the floor with the threat of hitting a 3. He's an elite mid-range shooter and can slash as well as anyone, but his offense has limits (he's at least smart enough to know them and avoids 3's while playing to his strengths, hence the career high TS%).

But defensively, Duncan was just absolutely killing it as a paint protector once again and TP - while improving slightly and playing well within their system - is still a non impact player on that end. They still hide them the best they can now that they have elite wing defenders again (helps his PPP defensively over a season). There's a reason why Pop tasked Green and Kawhi with Curry as that series progressed.

I think RAPM definitely supports my take on that: http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/teams/SAS.html
That "6.34" for Tim's DRAPM is DPOY level... which he nearly won.

Also, rather than clutch #'s, when applicable and given a big enough sample, I think it's much more important to look at playoff #'s (where it's all "clutch"). And looking at that we see that Duncan and TP were even closer than the regular season offensively (PER, TS%, WS, Offensive Rating all essentially equal) while Duncan maintained his defensive superiority. All the talk was that he would've been the Finals MVP had they won - with Tony wetting the bed in multiple games (including game 7) while Tim peaked as the series tightened.

As for Curry, I think his offensive game surpassed all of the above around January of last year, but it's fair to need that played out over a season.

mightybosstone
10-14-2013, 05:58 PM
What arbitrary measure of time/score are "clutch points" showing us and how efficient is the teams defense in those same situations? Either way, is it enough of an edge to decide anything? Is this comparison so close that clutch scoring actually factors in? I cant see myself deciding overall worth on such a small sample of the game that has proven to be random in the past.

I don't think it's arbitrary at all. We're talking about the final five minutes of close games. As a star player, you have to be able to manufacture points late in games. And clearly Parker excels in that area. He's also an excellent distributor, which we haven't discussed yet. He was fourth in the league last season in AST%.

I'm not saying that Duncan is trash by any means, but Parker is clearly the more reliable, impactful offensive player. You could make the argument one way or the other, but I actually think the Spurs would be worse replacing Parker with an average point guard than they would be replacing Duncan with an average defensive big.

Chronz
10-14-2013, 06:12 PM
I don't think it's arbitrary at all. We're talking about the final five minutes of close games.
What makes the last 5 minutes more clutch than say the last 5:30? 6 minutes. 2 Minutes. What score constitutes a "close" game. Is it 1 pt, 3pt, 5pt. Sounds arbitrary to me, thats why I dont look at clutch stats within the prism of a single barometer. It absolutely is arbitrary to do so.


I'm not saying that Duncan is trash by any means, but Parker is clearly the more reliable, impactful offensive player. You could make the argument one way or the other, but I actually think the Spurs would be worse replacing Parker with an average point guard than they would be replacing Duncan with an average defensive big.

The fact that you can make an argument for a bunch of players is why I dont think this list is a "joke". You have TP as high as 5th and you just admitted the 10th best player can reasonably be ahead of him. I cant recall a year that had this much uncertainty in the top 10-20 in a long time. I feel like we're entering another transitional phase, the totem pole is shuffling right now.

mightybosstone
10-14-2013, 06:14 PM
Tony had his best season to date and also gives you a respectable 3:1 assist:TO on 7.6 apg, but he's not CP3, Nash or even Calderon from a playmaking standpoint.
He was fourth in the league in AST% and sixth in assists per game. I think it's safe to say he's one of the best distributing point guards in the league.


He also won't get you an offensive rebound or the ability to stretch the floor with the threat of hitting a 3. He's an elite mid-range shooter and can slash as well as anyone, but his offense has limits (he's at least smart enough to know them and avoids 3's while playing to his strengths, hence the career high TS%).
This actually isn't true anymore. He took some huge strides forward in his perimeter shooting last season, shooting around 35% on 3-pointers in the regular season and the playoffs. Factor in a career high in FTA and FT%, and he made a huge improvement in his offensive efficiency. He didn't take a lot of 3-pointers, but there's no reason to believe that trend won't continue moving forward.


I think RAPM definitely supports my take on that: http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/teams/SAS.html
That "6.34" for Tim's DRAPM is DPOY level... which he nearly won.
Yeah, but you have to take any statistic with a grain of salt. Paul freaking Millsap posted the seventh highest RAPM of any player in the league. Are you going to make the argument that Millsap is better than Parker, Westbrook, Harden, Bryant, Melo, etc.?


Also, rather than clutch #'s, when applicable and given a big enough sample, I think it's much more important to look at playoff #'s (where it's all "clutch"). And looking at that we see that Duncan and TP were even closer than the regular season offensively (PER, TS%, WS, Offensive Rating all essentially equal) while Duncan maintained his defensive superiority. All the talk was that he would've been the Finals MVP had they won - with Tony wetting the bed in multiple games (including game 7) while Tim peaked as the series tightened.
Parker also played with an injured hamstring for much of the series against the Heat, which would explain why those numbers are as close as they were. Prior to getting hurt, Parker's numbers in the postseason were monstrous. He put up at least 22/6/3 in all three previous series, including a disgusting 25/10/4 on 53/38/87 shooting percentages against Memphis.


As for Curry, I think his offensive game surpassed all of the above around January of last year, but it's fair to need that played out over a season.
Yes. Plus, Curry has shown more of a propensity for injuries over the other players on my list.

mightybosstone
10-14-2013, 06:21 PM
What makes the last 5 minutes more clutch than say the last 5:30? 6 minutes. 2 Minutes. What score constitutes a "close" game. Is it 1 pt, 3pt, 5pt. Sounds arbitrary to me, thats why I dont look at clutch stats within the prism of a single barometer. It absolutely is arbitrary to do so.
When did I say that was my singular barometer? Parker is superior to Duncan in a variety of statistical factors which have nothing to do with clutch scoring.


The fact that you can make an argument for a bunch of players is why I dont think this list is a "joke". You have TP as high as 5th and you just admitted the 10th best player can reasonably be ahead of him. I cant recall a year that had this much uncertainty in the top 10-20 in a long time. I feel like we're entering another transitional phase, the totem pole is shuffling right now.
I don't think the list is a "joke" by any means, but I also don't think Duncan deserves to be ranked fourth overall. Obviously there is a level of subjectivity with any of these types of lists, but I still think Duncan is overrated.

I do agree with you, though, that this is the most uncertainty we've seen at the top of the NBA talent pool in nearly in a decade. The NBA re-draft we just did had some very interesting picks in the top 20.

tredigs
10-14-2013, 06:35 PM
He was fourth in the league in AST% and sixth in assists per game. I think it's safe to say he's one of the best distributing point guards in the league.


This actually isn't true anymore. He took some huge strides forward in his perimeter shooting last season, shooting around 35% on 3-pointers in the regular season and the playoffs. Factor in a career high in FTA and FT%, and he made a huge improvement in his offensive efficiency. He didn't take a lot of 3-pointers, but there's no reason to believe that trend won't continue moving forward.


Yeah, but you have to take any statistic with a grain of salt. Paul freaking Millsap posted the seventh highest RAPM of any player in the league. Are you going to make the argument that Millsap is better than Parker, Westbrook, Harden, Bryant, Melo, etc.?


Parker also played with an injured hamstring for much of the series against the Heat, which would explain why those numbers are as close as they were. Prior to getting hurt, Parker's numbers in the postseason were monstrous. He put up at least 22/6/3 in all three previous series, including a disgusting 25/10/4 on 53/38/87 shooting percentages against Memphis.


Yes. Plus, Curry has shown more of a propensity for injuries over the other players on my list.

I'm actually surprised his assist% was that high, but with the regression of Manu it pretty much leaves them without anyone else for the job, so it makes some sense. He's definitely good at it.

You don't have me sold on 3pt shooting. Anybody who it takes 2 to 3 games to make a single 3 is pretty much the definition of a non 3pt threat. When left wide open (as he always is), he'll sometimes effort it and he shot a respectable %, but it's still a hole in his game.

As for the playoffs, I can't give too much credence to injury. Many of those players were playing through nagging or semi serious injuries. It comes with the territory (and a big reason why San Antonio finally "slowed" Curry and were able to advance), I'm more interested in the bottom line. Which was Duncan as the more impactful playoff performer and their Finals MVP (well, him or Kawhi. There's an argument that Tony was the 3rd best player on the Spurs in the post season).

kdspurman
10-14-2013, 06:36 PM
What do you think of Tim showing an advantage over Tony in PER (Duncan coming in #6 at 24.3, Parker #9 at 23) despite the stats inability to account for his massive defensive advantage over Parker? They showed similarly in WS/48 (Parker slightly ahead), but Duncan blew him out in Wins Produced and RAPM. And it's not like there MPG or games played were much different. They ended up with nearly identical total minutes played. To me, Parker's the more replaceable player on the Spurs last season if you're trying to win a ring. He simply doesn't have the ability to effect the game as much as Duncan due to Tim's still-large offensive impact and massive rebounding/defensive impact. Duncan had a resurgence year health/energy wise, and somehow is still improving his craft and became a high end FT shooter out of nowhere. I'm not saying going forward he'll be better (tho' I don't doubt it), but this year he was imo.

Also, are Harden, TP, Melo, or Kobe any less of a sieve defensively than Curry (who improved over his earlier seasons)?

That's 100% true, I think most Spurs fans would agree. Parker is definitely the engine of the offense, but it could be picked up by a PG with a good head on his shoulders, and with time. What Duncan does on both ends, with his attitude, leadership, etc... is simply not replaceable.

mightybosstone
10-14-2013, 07:01 PM
There's an argument that Tony was the 3rd best player on the Spurs in the post season).

For the Finals? Maybe. But look at his postseason numbers prior to the Heat series and make that statement again. It's simply not true. And if it wasn't for the hamstring injury, his overall postseason numbers would have been substantially better.

tredigs
10-14-2013, 07:21 PM
That's 100% true, I think most Spurs fans would agree. Parker is definitely the engine of the offense, but it could be picked up by a PG with a good head on his shoulders, and with time. What Duncan does on both ends, with his attitude, leadership, etc... is simply not replaceable.

Yeah, I mean you had better have a beast of a replacement, but what Duncan brings you essentially can't replace.


For the Finals? Maybe. But look at his postseason numbers prior to the Heat series and make that statement again. It's simply not true. And if it wasn't for the hamstring injury, his overall postseason numbers would have been substantially better.

For the finals, definitely, but even for the entire post-season I'm sure many would be willing to argue Kawhi's impact over TP's. Crazy efficient offensively (destroyed TP in TS% and offensive rating while putting up a respectable 13.5 ppg as a 3rd option), but his rebounding (9 per game) and defense were difference makers on many nights for San Antonio. Out of their main rotation players, he actually led them in WinShares, Offensive Rating and Defensive Rating (tied with Timmy), and posted those guarding some of the best offensive players in the games defensively (often covering for TP's deficiencies).

Parker was a beast himself and in no way are my arguments trying to take away from him individually (actually I'm a French citizen as well as U.S. and have always loved the dude's game and rooted for him), but I just think some might be underrating some of the other Spurs' impact. Specifically what Duncan accomplished last year.