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Chronz
10-12-2013, 03:19 PM
Lakers sweep the West, complete the most dominant title defense in Playoff History....

When you look at Lakers playoffs runs throughout the 2K Era, 2001 sticks out like a sore thumb and when you look at the roster, 1 player really stands out. Kobe



2001 Playoffs: 29.4PPG - 7.3Reb - 6.1Ast
Usage: 30.3 (1.16 Pts Per Possession) 25.0PER


Thats high level production with elite efficiency, specifically given the defensive era/competition. And as good as those numbers were, they dont illustrate just how utterly dominant Kobe was individually in the Western Conference:

After 3 collective sweeps; VS Trailblazers (9th Ranked Defense), VS Kings (7th Ranked Defense), VS Spurs (1st Ranked Defense)
Kobe put up:


VS The West: 31.6PPG - 7.0Reb - 6.2Ast
Usage: 31.8 (1.21 Pts Per Possession)


I dont know if Philly was better equipped to defend Kobe or if he was simply cooling down but no matter how you look at Kobe's run, there remains 2 questions left unanswered....


Where the **** did that come from and why did we never see that again?


Well I should clarify, its not so much that we didn't see that kind of dominance from him again, we did, but it came well later in his career, the phase of Kobe's career where most would consider his prime/peak. Those high scoring days along with his back to back chip runs. Individually, Kobe's greatest playoff run was in 09 at age 30, but isnt that somewhat expected? In his youth, Kobe has put up higher scoring averages, but he didn't combine the efficiency, rebounding, playmaking quite like he did in 01.


In the 6 seasons after that brilliant run, Kobes playoff averages look like so;


2002-2007 Playoffs: 27.5PPG - 5.3Reb - 5.0Ast
Usage: 30.8 (1.06 Pts Per Possession) 21.2 PER


Now those are still quality numbers, but they dont come close to historic and far from what Kobe put up in the following 3 years:


2008-2010 Playoffs: 29.8PPG - 5.7Reb - 5.5Ast
Usage: 33.0 (1.15 Pts Per Possession) 25.5 PER



Which brings us back to the initial question Where the **** did that blip come from?
From 97 till about 2003, Shaq's playoff production remained fairly constant, no doubt he had his best years during the 3-peat but there was no night and day level of efficiency. It seemed the difference between dismantling the entire league and simply competing (and winning) chips was the difference between Kobe playing at a normal superstar level or a high end level. Sounds obvious, the Shaqobe domination had no remorse for human life that year, but what made 2001 special?

Shlumpledink
10-12-2013, 03:39 PM
From what I understood, Kobe would be who they leaned on up to the finals, then Shaq would be who they leaned on during the finals. The east didn't have any good bigs so Shaq would be able to dominate.

Sacramento had floppy divac, and pollard who guarded Shaq pretty well. Vlade wass pretty effective in drawing fouls and Pollard was really active.

Blazers had Rasheed wallace and Sabonis, Sabonis was big and could play physical with Shaq, Rasheed was better but a little smaller. I believe they had Davis as well, and brian grant.

Spurs of course had Duncan and some other bigs that I can't remember now. I don't think they had d-rob then.

The advantage the lakers had then was kobe. The way that the Lakers would deal with bowen on the spurs was they would run him off screens. Bowen was really effective at disrupting a players movement and denying them the ball. Phil Jackson called him Edward Scissorhands, for how effective he was at handchecking (which some say doesn't exist).

I think they used that strategy throughout the playoffs.

In the later years Shaq's health and fitness began to deteriorate and he wasn't setting screens as much and pretty much just camping under the basket. So they left that to the power forwards, who were largely ignored, and then of course there was that playoff series where Horace Grant and Karl Malone were injured.

Chronz
10-12-2013, 03:47 PM
Funny you mention Bowen because the Spurs didn't have him in 01. They picked him up after that year, prolly realizing they needed someone who could contain Kobe and while they still lost the following year, it was much more competitive and Kobe was not nearly as productive against them. Perhaps laying the foundation for what it would take to win.

I was wondering if it was moves like that which impacted Kobe's success against playoff foes, but that would only explain away the series vs the Spurs, he faced the exact same western opponents in 2002 that he did in 01, against all 3 he declined and the series were closer. The Kings did improve defensively but it wasn't statistically significant either. Blazers declined but the Lakers swept fwiw.

Im not sure how your explanation ties into why Kobe performed so differently in the years after 01.

Bruno
10-12-2013, 04:50 PM
he was more efficient because he wasn't that active from behind the arch. he was arguably in his athletic peak and spent a lot more time attacking the basket than spreading the floor.

in the 2010 post-season he shot almost six threes per game. in 2001 he was around two threes per game. his three point shooting has been my main criticism of him for years, he shoots too many.

amos1er
10-12-2013, 05:36 PM
he was more efficient because he wasn't that active from behind the arch. he was arguably in his athletic peak and spent a lot more time attacking the basket than spreading the floor.

in the 2010 post-season he shot almost six threes per game. in 2001 he was around two threes per game. his three point shooting has been my main criticism of him for years, he shoots too many.

A solid assessment.

amos1er
10-12-2013, 05:47 PM
Not sure what the answer is, but I can give a breakdown on my opinion for ever year he didn't perform at a super-elite pace...

2002 - Most likely due to chemistry problems with Shaq beginning to manifest. With Kobe's ever growing talent and Shaq still wanting to be the man, it was only a matter of time before it wasn't going to work anymore. The feud was starting up.

2003 - Even more chemistry issues with Shaq. This was the year of the infamous "big-toe" operation and Kobe had called out Shaq publicly for being lazy. Not enough time in the regular season to develop their chemistry and make another deep run. That and Horry appeared to be an old man over night and it was the beginning of the end for Fox. Still, Kobe had a good run this year from an individual stand point.

On a side note, I would also like to mention the fact that George (who was starting to show a lot of promise) was "mysteriously" injured at the hands of Manu Ginobili during the WCS. Ginobili was also "mysteriously" involved in an injury that sidelined Dirk in the WCF. Just thought I would mention that because I really felt like we had a good chance at beating San Antonio that year had the injury to George never occurred. The calls were also very one sided... Particularly in game 5 and especially at the end of game 5.

2004 - Even more chemistry issues with Shaq... (In fact, they were at their peak.) The addition of Malone and Payton brought down his individual stats.

2006 - Kobe gave up in game 7 against Phoenix. Brought his numbers down significantly.

2007 - Kobe was actually very good this year. Though only played in 5 games. Easily the best numbers of all the previous years since 2001.

Kevj77
10-13-2013, 12:35 AM
Bruno nailed it. He was attacking the rim a lot more. Shaq was dominant until the end of games due to his poor FT shooting so Kobe wasn't getting all the attention. The Lakers had three players that could spread the floor in Horry, Fisher and Fox. The West had more bigs that could slow down Shaq, but slowing down Shaq was still the main focus of opposing teams.

In the finals Shaq just abused East coast bigs. All the best big men were in the West.

Edit: Also if I remember right the Lakers had some mid season struggles, but went into the playoffs on a roll. They were hot at the right time.

hidalgo
10-13-2013, 03:14 AM
Bruno nailed it. He was attacking the rim a lot more. Shaq was dominant until the end of games due to his poor FT shooting so Kobe wasn't getting all the attention. The Lakers had three players that could spread the floor in Horry, Fisher and Fox. The West had more bigs that could slow down Shaq, but slowing down Shaq was still the main focus of opposing teams.

In the finals Shaq just abused East coast bigs. All the best big men were in the West.

Edit: Also if I remember right the Lakers had some mid season struggles, but went into the playoffs on a roll. They were hot at the right time.lets be honest here, Shaq faced 2 really good centers in the finals in Rik Smits, & Mutombo. Mutombo was DPOTY in 2001, & Shaq made him look silly, that's no easy thing to do(possibly the best defensive center ever), only Shaq could have pulled that off. only the 2002 Nets had weak centers

Trueblue2
10-13-2013, 06:33 AM
Funny you mention Bowen because the Spurs didn't have him in 01. They picked him up after that year, prolly realizing they needed someone who could contain Kobe and while they still lost the following year, it was much more competitive and Kobe was not nearly as productive against them. Perhaps laying the foundation for what it would take to win.

I was wondering if it was moves like that which impacted Kobe's success against playoff foes, but that would only explain away the series vs the Spurs, he faced the exact same western opponents in 2002 that he did in 01, against all 3 he declined and the series were closer. The Kings did improve defensively but it wasn't statistically significant either. Blazers declined but the Lakers swept fwiw.

Im not sure how your explanation ties into why Kobe performed so differently in the years after 01.


Not saying this completely explains the drop off but the Kings acquiring Bibby and the Spurs Bowen should be acknowledged here.

FlashBolt
10-14-2013, 11:51 PM
Let's be honest, Kobe wasn't the #1 priority for the Lakers opposing teams. Shaq was still far and away the best and most dominating player. Their defense was entirely built on stopping Shaq, not Kobe. Foolish, because you can stop Kobe but not Shaq.

Tony_Starks
10-15-2013, 12:09 AM
The growing Kobe/ Shaq feud had a lot to do with it. That monster run was a gift and a curse for Kobe. Fed into the idea that maybe Kobe should be "the man." From that point on it was just a increasing power struggle.

I remember that run though. Really had Shaq not been so invincible against Mutumbo Kobe was on pace for a finals MVP....

dalton749
10-15-2013, 12:59 AM
why the **** is this a thread

beliges
10-15-2013, 02:18 AM
There's a reason he's considered one of the 5 greatests to ever do it.

kblo247
10-15-2013, 05:14 AM
01 - He was completely healthy and Fisher spaced the floor like no other for both him and Shaq. Check the 01 game logs vs the Spurs, Fisher hit what 70% of his threes? There was no double teaming them without fisher making you pay a price. Derek deserves a lot of credit for that run of sweeps. And fisher could chase PGs as his foot injury was the next year where he was slowed down and you saw stuff like Bibby.

02 - lot of factors to into it but one is the team lost depth again so there was more heavy lifting all year by Kobe since they lost Harper, Horace, and Lue without really replacing their production outside George playing for a deal. The Sac series is so mail easing, they poisoned the ****ing guy in the WCF, poisoned his food and he had a set of bad games, but he also dominated when they needed to win.

03 - Shaq healed on company time, truly damning them that year. Kobe had a great season, but the team lacked even moe depth and ran out of gas just look at Fox, Horry, and Shaw. Kobe played on a knee that needed surgery (just like wade, but better) and tore his labrum dunking on KG and Rasho. Marks the end of his not being cut open period of his career as he would go on to have 3 knee surgeries, shoulder surgery, ankle surgery, hurt his hands, and 2 regenokine treatments (he simply got banged up)

04 - injuries, Colorado, feuding with Shaq, etc but he still has the best western playoffs of the 4 hall of famers.

06 - damned if he does or didnt, but that game 6 was every bit of a showing as any great can ask for

07 - eh, he and odom vs a team people picked to win a title

08 - his western playoff numbers are impressive, he just was slowed by Boston, but if you look at the series, he still had the best series of any of the players, just the boston big 3 took away Pau and Lamar and most of all made Radmanovic useless after he had spaced the floor so well the fist 3 rounds.

09 - western numbers are great, finals numbers only done by west and MJ at the time.

10 - he came off fiba, finals run, title, Olympics, and defended the title. He did all that on a knee that made Wades injury look like a tweak since he had his knee drained 4 x those playoffs. Look at his closeout numbers, people talk about Paus put back versus OKC but Pau no showed 47mins of that game. Look at his Utah series. Look at the closeout of Phoenix where Pau didnt show up and Kobe dominated them. Kobe's averages in the whole playoffs finals included are 1 of only 2 lakers whose numbers didnt slip on the road in any round, in fact they went up, the other being fisher. Versus Boston, people talk about Pau but he didnt show in Boston, LA would've won that series before 7 if they got Paus averages on the road.

Kobe's western playoff averages are pretty damn good every year of his career. Even with Shaq, check out who carried the road load, it wasnt Shaq, and it damn sure wasnt ever Pau in any year of his career since 2000. Even the game 7 vs Portland in 2000 saw Kobe thoroughly outclass Shaq with their backs on the wall.

Just injuries and finals make people scratch their head and question his stats. No one should ever question what Kobe did the west during the 3 peat or the run with Pau, just ask Pop who called him the best player in the world and on the court after the 01, 02, 04, and 08 series.

Matter.
10-15-2013, 03:29 PM
Wow

Chronz
10-15-2013, 03:34 PM
Good bump and great responses, been meaning to rewatch the series vs the Spurs/Kings, and seeing the difference 1 year makes. Will give my take later.

why the **** is this a thread
What do you mean?

Wow
Wat?

Bruno
10-15-2013, 03:45 PM
01 - He was completely healthy and Fisher spaced the floor like no other for both him and Shaq. Check the 01 game logs vs the Spurs, Fisher hit what 70% of his threes? There was no double teaming them without fisher making you pay a price. Derek deserves a lot of credit for that run of sweeps. And fisher could chase PGs as his foot injury was the next year where he was slowed down and you saw stuff like Bibby.

02 - lot of factors to into it but one is the team lost depth again so there was more heavy lifting all year by Kobe since they lost Harper, Horace, and Lue without really replacing their production outside George playing for a deal. The Sac series is so mail easing, they poisoned the ****ing guy in the WCF, poisoned his food and he had a set of bad games, but he also dominated when they needed to win.

03 - Shaq healed on company time, truly damning them that year. Kobe had a great season, but the team lacked even moe depth and ran out of gas just look at Fox, Horry, and Shaw. Kobe played on a knee that needed surgery (just like wade, but better) and tore his labrum dunking on KG and Rasho. Marks the end of his not being cut open period of his career as he would go on to have 3 knee surgeries, shoulder surgery, ankle surgery, hurt his hands, and 2 regenokine treatments (he simply got banged up)

04 - injuries, Colorado, feuding with Shaq, etc but he still has the best western playoffs of the 4 hall of famers.

06 - damned if he does or didnt, but that game 6 was every bit of a showing as any great can ask for

07 - eh, he and odom vs a team people picked to win a title

08 - his western playoff numbers are impressive, he just was slowed by Boston, but if you look at the series, he still had the best series of any of the players, just the boston big 3 took away Pau and Lamar and most of all made Radmanovic useless after he had spaced the floor so well the fist 3 rounds.

09 - western numbers are great, finals numbers only done by west and MJ at the time.

10 - he came off fiba, finals run, title, Olympics, and defended the title. He did all that on a knee that made Wades injury look like a tweak since he had his knee drained 4 x those playoffs. Look at his closeout numbers, people talk about Paus put back versus OKC but Pau no showed 47mins of that game. Look at his Utah series. Look at the closeout of Phoenix where Pau didnt show up and Kobe dominated them. Kobe's averages in the whole playoffs finals included are 1 of only 2 lakers whose numbers didnt slip on the road in any round, in fact they went up, the other being fisher. Versus Boston, people talk about Pau but he didnt show in Boston, LA would've won that series before 7 if they got Paus averages on the road.

Kobe's western playoff averages are pretty damn good every year of his career. Even with Shaq, check out who carried the road load, it wasnt Shaq, and it damn sure wasnt ever Pau in any year of his career since 2000. Even the game 7 vs Portland in 2000 saw Kobe thoroughly outclass Shaq with their backs on the wall.

Just injuries and finals make people scratch their head and question his stats. No one should ever question what Kobe did the west during the 3 peat or the run with Pau, just ask Pop who called him the best player in the world and on the court after the 01, 02, 04, and 08 series.
great point on fisher. i almost forgot how fantastic he was in 2001. 15/5/3 on a TS% above .610 with WS/48 figures above .200. He shot over 50% from three during the WC rounds. Shaq being just as fantastic as he was in 2000, Kobe turning into a super-star in 2001 and Fisher being dominant in the post-season had Laker fans asking "Glen who?" at the time.

amos1er
10-15-2013, 04:23 PM
01 - He was completely healthy and Fisher spaced the floor like no other for both him and Shaq. Check the 01 game logs vs the Spurs, Fisher hit what 70% of his threes? There was no double teaming them without fisher making you pay a price. Derek deserves a lot of credit for that run of sweeps. And fisher could chase PGs as his foot injury was the next year where he was slowed down and you saw stuff like Bibby.

02 - lot of factors to into it but one is the team lost depth again so there was more heavy lifting all year by Kobe since they lost Harper, Horace, and Lue without really replacing their production outside George playing for a deal. The Sac series is so mail easing, they poisoned the ****ing guy in the WCF, poisoned his food and he had a set of bad games, but he also dominated when they needed to win.

03 - Shaq healed on company time, truly damning them that year. Kobe had a great season, but the team lacked even moe depth and ran out of gas just look at Fox, Horry, and Shaw. Kobe played on a knee that needed surgery (just like wade, but better) and tore his labrum dunking on KG and Rasho. Marks the end of his not being cut open period of his career as he would go on to have 3 knee surgeries, shoulder surgery, ankle surgery, hurt his hands, and 2 regenokine treatments (he simply got banged up)

04 - injuries, Colorado, feuding with Shaq, etc but he still has the best western playoffs of the 4 hall of famers.

06 - damned if he does or didnt, but that game 6 was every bit of a showing as any great can ask for

07 - eh, he and odom vs a team people picked to win a title

08 - his western playoff numbers are impressive, he just was slowed by Boston, but if you look at the series, he still had the best series of any of the players, just the boston big 3 took away Pau and Lamar and most of all made Radmanovic useless after he had spaced the floor so well the fist 3 rounds.

09 - western numbers are great, finals numbers only done by west and MJ at the time.

10 - he came off fiba, finals run, title, Olympics, and defended the title. He did all that on a knee that made Wades injury look like a tweak since he had his knee drained 4 x those playoffs. Look at his closeout numbers, people talk about Paus put back versus OKC but Pau no showed 47mins of that game. Look at his Utah series. Look at the closeout of Phoenix where Pau didnt show up and Kobe dominated them. Kobe's averages in the whole playoffs finals included are 1 of only 2 lakers whose numbers didnt slip on the road in any round, in fact they went up, the other being fisher. Versus Boston, people talk about Pau but he didnt show in Boston, LA would've won that series before 7 if they got Paus averages on the road.

Kobe's western playoff averages are pretty damn good every year of his career. Even with Shaq, check out who carried the road load, it wasnt Shaq, and it damn sure wasnt ever Pau in any year of his career since 2000. Even the game 7 vs Portland in 2000 saw Kobe thoroughly outclass Shaq with their backs on the wall.

Just injuries and finals make people scratch their head and question his stats. No one should ever question what Kobe did the west during the 3 peat or the run with Pau, just ask Pop who called him the best player in the world and on the court after the 01, 02, 04, and 08 series.

A very nice breakdown! Some players are just fortunate to have no serious injuries in their careers. People never take into account that Kobe's injuries would have sidelined most of the All-Time greats, or rendered them pretty much useless. While most succumb to those injuries, Kobe went on to be a top ten player of all time and nearly tie MJ in titles. Guess when you factor in playing through injuries and work ethic, there is really no one that matches up. I know that Kobe has said multiple times that the one thing he wants to be remembered most for is to be known as the guy who worked his butt off the most... I'm sure that he will be.

Matter.
10-15-2013, 09:21 PM
Good bump and great responses, been meaning to rewatch the series vs the Spurs/Kings, and seeing the difference 1 year makes. Will give my take later.

why the **** is this a thread
What do you mean?

Wow
Wat?

Nothing

LAKERMANIA
10-16-2013, 01:27 AM
Hm... A positive thread about Kobe, in the NBA forum..

I'm waiting for some kind of catch..

JWorthy42
10-16-2013, 01:44 AM
What do you mean?

Shaq carried Kobe. Kobe was a glorified role player. Kobe basically rode along to get free 3 rings.

Duh?

kblo247
10-16-2013, 03:47 AM
Good bump and great responses, been meaning to rewatch the series vs the Spurs/Kings, and seeing the difference 1 year makes. Will give my take later.

What do you mean?

Wat?

Don't forget to note the difference age made on Fox the three years ... 01, 02, and 03. He literally had Peja locked up in 01 and that was a vast difference from the next year with Peja and Hedo. There was way more at play than just Kobe or Shaq in that 15-1 run.

Everything went perfect. Shaq was Shaq from the year before, Kobe became a superstar, Fox took out key elements, Fisher had one of the best playoff runs perhaps ever for a triangle point, Horace defended the post one on one which meantHorry was fresh and ready, Shaw was fresh and ready because of Lue and Harper.

The fact is the team used more and more of everyone's gas because the Fo got lazy and said we can't be beat. They didn't try to improve or stay even the next two years and it caught up with the team in 03

b@llhog24
10-16-2013, 10:50 AM
why the **** is this a thread

10 times better than a JVal thread.

Chronz
10-16-2013, 05:07 PM
Just rewatched and logged G.1 vs Spurs in 01, watching G.1 in 02 later on my way to LAX. And Good god was Duncan defending Shaq better than I remembered, not counting the garbage time offensive rebound/dunk, he literally went 0-4 (2ft) with 2 turnovers (1Ast) when defended 1 on 1 this game. Better than D-Rob/Rose did.

They really didn't want to double anyone in that game, they would try and crowd Shaq/Kobe as much as possible but they never really committed to making them get rid of the ball. I counted only 1 hard double on Shaq, which eventually led to a drive for Kobe. And only 2-3 on Kobe (1 or 2 of which came when Shaq wasn't on the court).

Looking forward to seeing what a difference Bowen makes and any noticeable decline in athletic ability. Doug Collins practically creamed himself when Kobe followed his own miss for the putback dunk. He was on another level athletically it seems. Killing the spurs in transition, absorbing contact and finishing over the twin towers regularly.

Chronz
10-16-2013, 05:26 PM
great point on fisher. i almost forgot how fantastic he was in 2001. 15/5/3 on a TS% above .610 with WS/48 figures above .200. He shot over 50% from three during the WC rounds. Shaq being just as fantastic as he was in 2000, Kobe turning into a super-star in 2001 and Fisher being dominant in the post-season had Laker fans asking "Glen who?" at the time.
Fisher stats look better in 02 tho.

Don't forget to note the difference age made on Fox the three years ... 01, 02, and 03. He literally had Peja locked up in 01 and that was a vast difference from the next year with Peja and Hedo. There was way more at play than just Kobe or Shaq in that 15-1 run.

Everything went perfect. Shaq was Shaq from the year before, Kobe became a superstar, Fox took out key elements, Fisher had one of the best playoff runs perhaps ever for a triangle point, Horace defended the post one on one which meantHorry was fresh and ready, Shaw was fresh and ready because of Lue and Harper.

The fact is the team used more and more of everyone's gas because the Fo got lazy and said we can't be beat. They didn't try to improve or stay even the next two years and it caught up with the team in 03

Im just focusing on Kobe and Shaq. Defensive efficiency will attest to your point about their decline on that end. As for Fisher, he had that stress fracture in 01, I dont remember what injury he had in 02 but I can see he missed 12 games then. I dont think that effected him against PG's as much as Shaq's deteriorating defense did. Fisher was always pretty slow after the 01 injury but it didn't effect his offense one bit. His stats were actually better in the 02 run.

Im more inclined to agree with you on the FO getting lazy/stupid and that being the result of their demise moreso than Im willing to blame Shaq for missing the standard amount of games hes always missed like you suggest above. No one takes the beating Shaq does, its his body to gauge. He salvaged the Lakers season, plz dont try to pull "the heal on company time" line on me, Shaq says alot of absurd **** but you cant take everything at face value, the fact was that Shaq was weighing his options and he decided to take the route that would get him back on court in time to make a run, had he truly not given a **** about the Lakers, he would have opted for the surgery that would have corrected his toe problem in full, while costing them a season. In retrospect he prolly should have done that. The Lakers would have gotten a lotto pick (Bron, Melo, Wade, Bosh) and would have extended Shaq's prime. All while adding the other HOF'ers.


Kupcake inherited a dynasty and allowed it to whither away, he extended Bubba at a ridiculous price tag and ignored pressing needs in the frontcourt (PJ Brown or someone was willing to come IIRC). They should have brought back Pippen IMO as well but that wouldn't have helped beyond 03.

bholly
10-16-2013, 05:30 PM
My first thought was 'did the Clippers even make the playoffs in 2001?'.
(I thought Q meant Q-Rich :()

Chronz
10-16-2013, 08:40 PM
My first thought was 'did the Clippers even make the playoffs in 2001?'.
(I thought Q meant Q-Rich :()

You should know whenever you enter a Chronz thread, that he would never make such an error.

kblo247
10-17-2013, 02:02 AM
Fisher stats look better in 02 tho.


Im just focusing on Kobe and Shaq. Defensive efficiency will attest to your point about their decline on that end. As for Fisher, he had that stress fracture in 01, I dont remember what injury he had in 02 but I can see he missed 12 games then. I dont think that effected him against PG's as much as Shaq's deteriorating defense did. Fisher was always pretty slow after the 01 injury but it didn't effect his offense one bit. His stats were actually better in the 02 run.

Im more inclined to agree with you on the FO getting lazy/stupid and that being the result of their demise moreso than Im willing to blame Shaq for missing the standard amount of games hes always missed like you suggest above. No one takes the beating Shaq does, its his body to gauge. He salvaged the Lakers season, plz dont try to pull "the heal on company time" line on me, Shaq says alot of absurd **** but you cant take everything at face value, the fact was that Shaq was weighing his options and he decided to take the route that would get him back on court in time to make a run, had he truly not given a **** about the Lakers, he would have opted for the surgery that would have corrected his toe problem in full, while costing them a season. In retrospect he prolly should have done that. The Lakers would have gotten a lotto pick (Bron, Melo, Wade, Bosh) and would have extended Shaq's prime. All while adding the other HOF'ers.


Kupcake inherited a dynasty and allowed it to whither away, he extended Bubba at a ridiculous price tag and ignored pressing needs in the frontcourt (PJ Brown or someone was willing to come IIRC). They should have brought back Pippen IMO as well but that wouldn't have helped beyond 03.
Bubba? I assume you mean George. I call him Forest Gump lol.

Yeah you are correct, on both folds. One Shaq needed rest because he takes such a pounding, just when he chose to get the surgery hurt the team dynamic. They were Kobe centric especially with that eventual first 40+ streak, as he worked his way back, and it was just another problem. That and as you point out, they didnt bolster the team at all. Shaw, Fox, and Horry used way too much limited gas during that regular season just to get in the playoffs because the Lakers when Shaq was hurt were relying on guys like Madsen to get it done. They really needed a PJ Brown, Horace Grant, etc over some small ball moments and simply trying to deal without 5 production. The older guys just didnt have the gas another year after 02 to simply turn it on and up those playoffs and they all fell apart.

And Fish sprained his foot in 02, he's hurt his foot three times. 01, 02, and 08. He just didnt miss time in 08. His stats were better in 02 as he as clearly the third option all year, but the 01 playoffs is probably the blueprint fōr triangle pg play. He hit every shot, he defended by pressing, got thru sēreens, didnt turn it over, and was basically perfect in his role. Its hard to ever find a triangle pg and say they compare to his play that postseason as he was shooting a flamethrower from 3. I remember every joyous dagger he threw in the Spurs and Kings especially with that grin on his face

3RDASYSTEM
10-17-2013, 01:08 PM
Lakers sweep the West, complete the most dominant title defense in Playoff History....

When you look at Lakers playoffs runs throughout the 2K Era, 2001 sticks out like a sore thumb and when you look at the roster, 1 player really stands out. Kobe



2001 Playoffs: 29.4PPG - 7.3Reb - 6.1Ast
Usage: 30.3 (1.16 Pts Per Possession) 25.0PER


Thats high level production with elite efficiency, specifically given the defensive era/competition. And as good as those numbers were, they dont illustrate just how utterly dominant Kobe was individually in the Western Conference:

After 3 collective sweeps; VS Trailblazers (9th Ranked Defense), VS Kings (7th Ranked Defense), VS Spurs (1st Ranked Defense)
Kobe put up:


VS The West: 31.6PPG - 7.0Reb - 6.2Ast
Usage: 31.8 (1.21 Pts Per Possession)


I dont know if Philly was better equipped to defend Kobe or if he was simply cooling down but no matter how you look at Kobe's run, there remains 2 questions left unanswered....


Where the **** did that come from and why did we never see that again?


Well I should clarify, its not so much that we didn't see that kind of dominance from him again, we did, but it came well later in his career, the phase of Kobe's career where most would consider his prime/peak. Those high scoring days along with his back to back chip runs. Individually, Kobe's greatest playoff run was in 09 at age 30, but isnt that somewhat expected? In his youth, Kobe has put up higher scoring averages, but he didn't combine the efficiency, rebounding, playmaking quite like he did in 01.


In the 6 seasons after that brilliant run, Kobes playoff averages look like so;


2002-2007 Playoffs: 27.5PPG - 5.3Reb - 5.0Ast
Usage: 30.8 (1.06 Pts Per Possession) 21.2 PER


Now those are still quality numbers, but they dont come close to historic and far from what Kobe put up in the following 3 years:


2008-2010 Playoffs: 29.8PPG - 5.7Reb - 5.5Ast
Usage: 33.0 (1.15 Pts Per Possession) 25.5 PER



Which brings us back to the initial question Where the **** did that blip come from?
From 97 till about 2003, Shaq's playoff production remained fairly constant, no doubt he had his best years during the 3-peat but there was no night and day level of efficiency. It seemed the difference between dismantling the entire league and simply competing (and winning) chips was the difference between Kobe playing at a normal superstar level or a high end level. Sounds obvious, the Shaqobe domination had no remorse for human life that year, but what made 2001 special?

Nothing made 01 special, it was the collective 3peat that was so special

nobody really cares for a backup player turned starter, no matter what numbers he puts up

that's where the real ? begins, why did it take a top 10 best(according to some dummies in the world) player alltime 4yrs to covet a fulltime role?

a scorer can score if given more minutes and usage, to me he is the same bean that avg 15ppg and then 27ppg in Finals a year or two later, does that mean he was rotting on the bench behind JONES? because soon as he started they won first title of 3peat, did that have to do with bean improving/starting or did the west get weaker team depth wise? because sweeping a team in a 5 game set is diff. than a 7 game set

see how you put from 97-03 SHAQ was same player right? now go back years further to ORL and LSU and he was the same exact player then production/impact/game wise

sort of like how I been telling you about BRON/IVERSON and others game day 1, its not my fault you don't want to listen and churn up your own fable story inside your brain and feel like guys improve after 10yrs or so which is just dumb and stupid, DUNCAN is still working on free throws(slight improvement from rookie year),SHAQ still couldn't shoot free throws after 20yrs in nba but hit big time clutch free throws when it mattered, bean was a scorer/JORDAN wannabe and 18yrs later its the same thing, a JORDAN wannabe...BRON entered the league in the mold of MAGIC/OSCAR and 11yrs later in nba career he is exactly that and still working on improving free throws and j shot, the same weakness he had prior to joining the nba

in highschool you was the man homie

slurp on that


so you mean to tell me he is the only backup turned starter in history that was capable of owning the league or dismantling(as you say) or letting teams compete because he was so damn good?

well damn im glad he didn't play for any small market because im sure then he would be on 20 levels higher had he done that and not in LA or NYC market hype

you are some slurper genius chronz, you are the man playa

3RDASYSTEM
10-17-2013, 01:14 PM
You should know whenever you enter a Chronz thread, that he would never make such an error.

maybe not the title thread but you will make sure your agenda is intact and others present the same facts you turn and look the other way

for instance SHAQ took a beating, I said same thing about IVERSON and you say bologna, which I find to be ******** because you say its my own thoughts made up like you don't live in your own fishbowl sportworld over there

that's the prob you bring to your psd threads, you may be SKIP B of psd on here, TBD

me and BRON feel just alike, if you play sports and you say this is your favorite player,it usually means you think that player is the best or top 3 of his era, no doubt



LEBRON JAMES QUOTE

I watch Jordan more than anybody, for sure. But I'll watch tapes of AI [Allen Iverson] too. I don't take anything from AI. Well, I do -- his will. They say he was six feet, but AI was like 5'10½". Do we even want to say 160? 170 [pounds]? Do we even want to give him that much weight? And he played like a 6'8" 2-guard. He was one of the greatest finishers we've ever seen. You could never question his heart. Ever. He gave it his all. AI was like my second favorite player growing up, after MJ. -

CHRONZ favorite player ever in nba to slurp all time said this about the most overrated player in history according to CHRONZ and psd alike, now does that make BRON one of the most overrated players in history also for following and idolizing one?

3RDASYSTEM
10-17-2013, 01:44 PM
CHRONZ cried wolf when I said IVERSON finished in the paint as good/much as BRON, he pointed out to efficient and blah blah

how can you compare a 5'10'' finisher in paint to 6'8'' finisher in paint? you cant its the reason why I stated over and over on here that IVERSON played big, like the 6'8'' BRON said he played like

but now I guess you will have to disagree with your main slurp employee and your psd owner, me

on another note....
I just heard that DROSE said he feels more explosive and blah blah because his vert went from 37 to 42 inches now, IVERSON had a 44inch vertical out of HS going into G'TOWN

talk about natural mother nature explosiveness over dr Andrews man made style

when I speak on game/impact its usually the cream of the crop im talking about,not PER/WS or any other propaganda, so how is IVERSON any different from the best of the best? and please don't say rings

why on mother natures green earth would a 6'8'' PointForward-PowerForward watch and idolize a 5'10'' player? he would have to be pretty damn special right, 2nd to none style or just the run of the mill avg everyday player?

Chronz
10-17-2013, 02:22 PM
Appreciate the bump but Plz stop derailing this thread. I dont care what Bron said about his childhood hero, I know the facts. AI couldn't finish in the paint like Bron. Thats like saying Mugsey Bogues could finish like Shaq, hes just small. No **** hes small. Thats exactly why Im laughing at the comparison to a tank like Bron.

Nobody buys your bench player talk.

Bruno
10-17-2013, 02:23 PM
you gotta me kidding me :laugh2:

bholly
10-17-2013, 07:44 PM
You should know whenever you enter a Chronz thread, that he would never make such an error.

Ha, I know! I was genuinely questioning my Clippers memory thinking they must've actually made the playoffs if you said so. Or that Q played for someone else then.