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View Full Version : does anyone have optimism for Monta Ellis?



ThuglifeJ
10-12-2013, 12:47 AM
.. I mean he's never been in a situation like this really and he's still in his prime. Anyone see a great year or unexpected good Mavs team?

No scoring point next to him, big upgrade from modern milwaukee franchise, near hometown, new faces.

Never know...guys talent is as good as anyone's.

SugeKnight
10-12-2013, 01:10 AM
I'm definitely rooting for him

COOLbeans
10-12-2013, 02:05 AM
Absolutely. If he can play with a larger PG or someone like a Ramon Sessions or even a team like Brooklyn, I think he could be an allstar and could lead his team to the playoffs.

bgdreton
10-12-2013, 02:08 AM
Nope

TheMightyHumph
10-12-2013, 02:08 AM
I can almost guarantee you that Monta does.

tredigs
10-12-2013, 02:12 AM
It's an ideal situation for him. He'll have pressure taken off of him by Dirk and Calderon's an elite playmaker. I think he has a very good season. Defensively that backcourt is in a bit of trouble though.

NYMetros
10-12-2013, 02:13 AM
20-22 PPG on 42% shooting, and they get the 7th seed.

who's their center though?

ThuglifeJ
10-12-2013, 02:20 AM
It's an ideal situation for him. He'll have pressure taken off of him by Dirk and Calderon's an elite playmaker. I think he has a very good season. Defensively that backcourt is in a bit of trouble though.

Yes but you know Carlisle won't put up with bad defense. I'm expecting to either see zone or Calderon not starting? Idk.

ThuglifeJ
10-12-2013, 02:22 AM
20-22 PPG on 42% shooting, and they get the 7th seed.

who's their center though?

Dalembert, Brandon Wright, Bernard James, Blaire or Dirk occasionally

Definitely a weak point unless Wright ( a PF) or James breakout

kobe4thewinbang
10-12-2013, 06:31 AM
I would like to see the Mavericks become relevant again. I still love watching Dirk play, VC is still a beast at times, and hopefully Ellis can have a good year in a new environment.

IndyRealist
10-12-2013, 11:21 AM
I think this is the ideal situation for him. If he can't succeed in Dallas, that's pretty much it for his career. He'll never have to handle the ball with Calderon on the floor and Dirk in the post, he's surrounded by competent defenders (except for Calderon), and he'll be asked to shoot a lot which is his forte. We'll see what kind of shot selection he has now, but his 3pt% isn't encouraging.

IndyRealist
10-12-2013, 11:25 AM
Dalembert, Brandon Wright, Bernard James, Blaire or Dirk occasionally

Definitely a weak point unless Wright ( a PF) or James breakout

Dalembert is a strong paint protector who I think unfairly gets labeled a stat stuffer. Needs to get in shape though. I'm a big fan of Brandan Wright, and wish he'd get more minutes. James is solid but already at his peak age. Blair's kind of meh, he's been less productive each year since coming into the league. I dunno if his knees are deteriorating or if he just thinks he's better than he actually is.

Chronz
10-12-2013, 11:43 AM
Define optimism? Individually or team influence wise?

b@llhog24
10-12-2013, 01:43 PM
Not really. He should be more efficient, don't know if that means better in his case.

Guppyfighter
10-12-2013, 02:47 PM
Yeah, Curry's never played with a hyper efficient point guard (Curry) and an efficient big man who can finish near the rim and has a shot (Lee).

He's clearly never been in a situation where he was allowed to have his offensive talents shined. It was just all the other players fault.

ThuglifeJ
10-12-2013, 02:52 PM
Dalembert, Brandon Wright, Bernard James, Blaire or Dirk occasionally

Definitely a weak point unless Wright ( a PF) or James breakout

Dalembert is a strong paint protector who I think unfairly gets labeled a stat stuffer. Needs to get in shape though. I'm a big fan of Brandan Wright, and wish he'd get more minutes. James is solid but already at his peak age. Blair's kind of meh, he's been less productive each year since coming into the league. I dunno if his knees are deteriorating or if he just thinks he's better than he actually is.

They picked up Balkman and Fan Melo now I forgot to add. My beef with Del ambert is not stats but his age and speed

ThuglifeJ
10-12-2013, 03:06 PM
Yeah, Curry's never played with a hyper efficient point guard (Curry) and an efficient big man who can finish near the rim and has a shot (Lee).

He's clearly never been in a situation where he was allowed to have his offensive talents shined. It was just all the other players fault.

Cool . Except Calderon is nothing like Curry, and Lee is not even sniffing Dirk.

Don't be an idiot (Btw its Ellis not curry), calderon (if he even starts) and Ellis is nothing like Milwaukee or GS where you had to watch two scoring points trying to share a backcourt. Which clearly doesn't work

obie
10-12-2013, 03:27 PM
i'm optimistic...that he can shine bright as a 6th man.

b@llhog24
10-12-2013, 03:35 PM
Cool . Except Calderon is nothing like Curry, and Lee is not even sniffing Dirk.

Don't be an idiot (Btw its Ellis not curry), calderon (if he even starts) and Ellis is nothing like Milwaukee or GS where you had to watch two scoring points trying to share a backcourt. Which clearly doesn't work

It mainly didn't work because they got torched defensively, which isn't really improving with Calderon. We'll see.

Guppyfighter
10-12-2013, 03:45 PM
Cool . Except Calderon is nothing like Curry, and Lee is not even sniffing Dirk.

Don't be an idiot (Btw its Ellis not curry), calderon (if he even starts) and Ellis is nothing like Milwaukee or GS where you had to watch two scoring points trying to share a backcourt. Which clearly doesn't work

It didn't work because Ellis is a player that makes other offensive players worse. He hasn't failed from lack of talent around him because he had talent around him. He's failed because he's not a good player. A position to the contrary is either homerism or ignorance to the sport of basketball.

LTBaByyy
10-12-2013, 05:07 PM
Monta has averaged 25 minutes, 12.5 points (will go up when minutes go up when season starts), 7.5 assists, 2.0 rebounds and 1.5 turnovers per game and posted an overall rating of plus-11. Often discussed for his poor shot selection, he connected on 3-of-5 three-pointers and shot 9-of-17 from the field in the first 2 preseason games so far.

I know it's preseason but he is looking good so far with a changed game

Guppyfighter
10-12-2013, 05:16 PM
Monta has averaged 25 minutes, 12.5 points (will go up when minutes go up when season starts), 7.5 assists, 2.0 rebounds and 1.5 turnovers per game and posted an overall rating of plus-11. Often discussed for his poor shot selection, he connected on 3-of-5 three-pointers and shot 9-of-17 from the field in the first 2 preseason games so far.

I know it's preseason but he is looking good so far with a changed game

It's not changed if he is still jacking up three pointers. Career 318 percent, last year he hit just 24 percent. You should be worried if he is still taking threes.

MrfadeawayJB
10-12-2013, 06:28 PM
I think he will get around 22-25 a game with 6-7 assists. His fg% should go up with dirk in his team

asandhu23
10-12-2013, 06:38 PM
It didn't work because Ellis is a player that makes other offensive players worse. He hasn't failed from lack of talent around him because he had talent around him. He's failed because he's not a good player. A position to the contrary is either homerism or ignorance to the sport of basketball.


Guppy, you know very well that to win, you need a well balanced team and good coaching. actually... i am not sure if you know the value of coaching since you dismissed impact of psychology in TEAM sports in the conversation you are currently having in Warriors' forum.

You fail to see that his Warriors teams were injury riddled nearly every year which is an undeniable fact. The talent you mention wasn't there due to injuries. The talent on the court was mostly D - League players and old about to retire players who haven't done **** since. His coaches were either rookies (Smart, Jackson) or coach who didn't give a **** anymore ( Nelson ).

Last year on Bucks, he had a team where he and Jennings were the only scorers which lead to Ellis having the worst season in his career because defenses weren't spread out. That was a big reason as to why Heat shut the team down. they knew all they had to do was shut Ellis and Jennings down and piled defenders on those two. Skiles tried to make that team work but it had enough flaws that Skiles couldn't do **** and then got fired.

Talent wasn't there. Coaches weren't there. Rosters were flawed. All reasons why Ellis has failed. To blame it solely on Ellis just not being a good player is pure idiocy.


edit: oh and Guppy, this is a different perspective. try to prove Mackshock wrong for once.

Guppyfighter
10-12-2013, 09:29 PM
Guppy, you know very well that to win, you need a well balanced team and good coaching. actually... i am not sure if you know the value of coaching since you dismissed impact of psychology in TEAM sports in the conversation you are currently having in Warriors' forum.

You fail to see that his Warriors teams were injury riddled nearly every year which is an undeniable fact. The talent you mention wasn't there due to injuries. The talent on the court was mostly D - League players and old about to retire players who haven't done **** since. His coaches were either rookies (Smart, Jackson) or coach who didn't give a **** anymore ( Nelson ).

Last year on Bucks, he had a team where he and Jennings were the only scorers which lead to Ellis having the worst season in his career because defenses weren't spread out. That was a big reason as to why Heat shut the team down. they knew all they had to do was shut Ellis and Jennings down and piled defenders on those two. Skiles tried to make that team work but it had enough flaws that Skiles couldn't do **** and then got fired.

Talent wasn't there. Coaches weren't there. Rosters were flawed. All reasons why Ellis has failed. To blame it solely on Ellis just not being a good player is pure idiocy.


edit: oh and Guppy, this is a different perspective. try to prove Mackshock wrong for once.

I know. It's never Ellis it's always the team around him. He took two threes a game last year with 24 percent rate because Sanders was mean to him. Jennings made a bet with him to see who could take dumber shots. It's not not his fault. It's never his fault.

Why don't you consider a different perspective? You seem to be stuck again. And you call others narrow minded (something of that effect) to stay stuck in whatever ******** world you have made for Ellis. You are not close minded, it's the other person.


"i am not sure if you know the value of coaching since you dismissed impact of psychology in TEAM sports in the conversation you are currently having in Warriors' forum. "

I think you need to read that thread better. I didn't dismiss psychology, I dismissed the people applying it in an argument. They are often ignorant to the sport in question and say stuff like Kevin Love is a chucker and can't win while trying to apply a psychological reason. There not versed well enough in psychology to state why whatever psychological thing matters. And after that it comes down to producing evidence or making an experiment. Something no one would be willing to do in order to support their argument.

Which just means they are arguing from ignorance to compound their ignorance.

TheNumber37
10-12-2013, 10:55 PM
He's a 6th man, really.

Say, he were on the Heat, Nets, Rockets, Grizzlies... teams like that. He's make an awesome 6th man for those teams.

Guppyfighter
10-12-2013, 11:33 PM
Definitely not the Heat, Nets, Grizzlies or Rockets.


Heat and Rockets want three point shooting on their bench. They don't want "instant" offense. They want spot up shooters. Something Ellis does not provide.

Nets already have their sixth man and he's ****ing awesome. AK47 is ten times the player Ellis is at basketball.


I am guessing you have not heard about the Grizzlies shiny new front office. You know, John Hollinger?

THE MTL
10-13-2013, 12:47 AM
I don't see Dallas doing anything in the western conference. They got teams on the rise such as New Orleans and minny who will be the taking the later playoff positions. And if it's between Kobe and Dirk for that last position, I'm going Kobe injured or not.

Monta's ideal situation is playing the sixth man on team like indy or chi

ThuglifeJ
10-13-2013, 12:48 AM
Well safe to say guppy is an Ellis hater. and yes, you are.

Once the hyperboles star flying with no logical arguments it is clear

I'm not even a fan, but I see him in a good position and don't deny his potential or talent

asandhu23
10-13-2013, 12:50 AM
I know. It's never Ellis it's always the team around him. He took two threes a game last year with 24 percent rate because Sanders was mean to him. Jennings made a bet with him to see who could take dumber shots. It's not not his fault. It's never his fault.

Why don't you consider a different perspective? You seem to be stuck again. And you call others narrow minded (something of that effect) to stay stuck in whatever ******** world you have made for Ellis. You are not close minded, it's the other person.


"i am not sure if you know the value of coaching since you dismissed impact of psychology in TEAM sports in the conversation you are currently having in Warriors' forum. "

I think you need to read that thread better. I didn't dismiss psychology, I dismissed the people applying it in an argument. They are often ignorant to the sport in question and say stuff like Kevin Love is a chucker and can't win while trying to apply a psychological reason. There not versed well enough in psychology to state why whatever psychological thing matters. And after that it comes down to producing evidence or making an experiment. Something no one would be willing to do in order to support their argument.

Which just means they are arguing from ignorance to compound their ignorance.

You are accusing me of being narrow minded? You, buddy, go around in every single Monta related thread and give one sided view on how Monta Ellis sucks and how its all his fault. You know very well that there are other major factors which have lead to his lack of success but you conveniently ignore them because they do not fit your agenda.

asandhu23
10-13-2013, 12:57 AM
Well safe to say guppy is an Ellis hater. and yes, you are.

Once the hyperboles star flying with no logical arguments it is clear

I'm not even a fan, but I see him in a good position and don't deny his potential or talent


without a doubt.

Guppyfighter
10-13-2013, 01:22 AM
You are accusing me of being narrow minded? You, buddy, go around in every single Monta related thread and give one sided view on how Monta Ellis sucks and how its all his fault. You know very well that there are other major factors which have lead to his lack of success but you conveniently ignore them because they do not fit your agenda.


I know. It's weird I am talking about Ellis in a thread about Ellis.


I don't hate Ellis. I like Ellis. I just think Ellis is a bad basketball player. And that will be shown year after year until he is out of the league.

Efficient, good players don't stop being good and efficient in bad situations. Curry and Lee were both hyper efficient. We know the relation to usage and efficiency. Ellis would still be a detriment on offense and a god awful defensive player. None of that will change and the thought it will is pretty laughable.

Guppyfighter
10-13-2013, 01:23 AM
without a doubt.

People use the word hater when they can't defend their position with evidence.

Asik's better
10-13-2013, 02:01 AM
100% agree with guppyfighter, Ellis is incredidably overrated. You just need to at look what happened to curry and Jennings. It's no coincident that after that trade, curry improved a lot and Jennings regressed.

THE MTL
10-13-2013, 02:35 AM
100% agree with guppyfighter, Ellis is incredidably overrated. You just need to at look what happened to curry and Jennings. It's no coincident that after that trade, curry improved a lot and Jennings regressed.

Hmm...I would have thought it was because Curry finally put together s healthy season but that was Ellis's fault apparently.

TrueFan420
10-13-2013, 03:22 AM
Hmm...I would have thought it was because Curry finally put together s healthy season but that was Ellis's fault apparently.

It was a little of both. He got to have the ball more and the offense ran through him as well as being healthy.

KG2TB
10-13-2013, 03:30 AM
I think he'll be what he's always been...talented yet inefficient and not a guy who can carry a team and not a true number 2 option. I think he's best suited off the bench but not someone I'm holding out hope for to rejuvenate his career.

asandhu23
10-13-2013, 05:27 AM
I know. It's weird I am talking about Ellis in a thread about Ellis.


I don't hate Ellis. I like Ellis. I just think Ellis is a bad basketball player. And that will be shown year after year until he is out of the league.

Efficient, good players don't stop being good and efficient in bad situations. Curry and Lee were both hyper efficient. We know the relation to usage and efficiency. Ellis would still be a detriment on offense and a god awful defensive player. None of that will change and the thought it will is pretty laughable.


1. no. its that you absolutely love to participate in Ellis threads. They are easily your favorite threads because you get to bash the guy. Every time a Monta thread pops up, its pretty much guaranteed you will be there.

2. ********. you have said you hate Ellis plenty of times in Warriors forum.

asandhu23
10-13-2013, 05:33 AM
100% agree with guppyfighter, Ellis is incredidably overrated. You just need to at look what happened to curry and Jennings. It's no coincident that after that trade, curry improved a lot and Jennings regressed.

1. Curry improved a lot because he was healthy and because he got a well balanced team Ellis never had. Compare the roster Curry had last year to Monta's rosters 2007 on.

2. Jennings didn't regress. He's stayed at the same level all 4 of his years. Stop pulling **** out of your ***.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jennibr01.html

Goose17
10-13-2013, 06:47 AM
Monta has always been an inefficient chucker, a volume scorer who brings nothing else to a team.

I think he will continue to be this way, personally I would have rather of seen him sign with a borderline contender as a 6th man. He would thrive in that sort of role, much like JR Smith. My initial thoughts this off-season was Indiana, Granger was a question mark, having the high volume scoring from Ellis coming off the bench would have helped them imo. Aside from contenders, I also thought he could have helped Portlands second unit.


So, do I see him suddenly becoming an efficient offensive talent? No.

Do I think he will have a better season than last? Maybe in terms of offense, but his defense is going to be exploited and put on show for everyone to see, he actually seemed competent last season defensively because of the steals he was netting but the truth is he shoots the gap way too much and is doing it mostly at random, the only reason he didn't look awful last year was because Milwaukee has one of the deepest big men rotations in the league, guys like Sanders were covering up Monta's flaws defensively.

Do I think he could be an all-star? Well... maybe. It's unlikely, he'll be contending with CP3, Westbrook, Curry, Parker, Harden, Lawson, Lillard, Rubio, Klay and many more, there's a lot of talented guards in the West, if he was averaging 22 and 7 before the ASG and the Mavs were being surprisingly successful then yeah, I could see him sneaking in. But I wouldn't hold my breath.



Milwaukee did the right thing by letting go of him and Jennings, in the long run it will benefit them.

MonroeFAN
10-13-2013, 06:57 AM
I see him having a good year statistically, but the Mav's won't.

Guppyfighter
10-13-2013, 07:21 AM
1. Curry improved a lot because he was healthy and because he got a well balanced team Ellis never had. Compare the roster Curry had last year to Monta's rosters 2007 on.

2. Jennings didn't regress. He's stayed at the same level all 4 of his years. Stop pulling **** out of your ***.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jennibr01.html

Curry's stats have actually been the same all four years too except for his passing. And yes, the games Curry and Ellis played together Curry was noticeably worse statistically.

Guppyfighter
10-13-2013, 07:22 AM
1. no. its that you absolutely love to participate in Ellis threads. They are easily your favorite threads because you get to bash the guy. Every time a Monta thread pops up, its pretty much guaranteed you will be there.

2. ********. you have said you hate Ellis plenty of times in Warriors forum.

1. I participate in a lot of threads. Check my post count.

2. No I haven't. I have stated numerous times I like Ellis and I have fond memories of him. And I want him to do good. I'd love for him to be good. He won't be though.

LTBaByyy
10-13-2013, 11:42 AM
I love that people can only talk about his shooting percentage hahaha

They don't bring up he was #1 in assists for shooting guards

Or that he was #1 in steals for shooting guards

Also that he was top 15 in rebounds for shooting guards

You honestly don't believe his shooting percentage won't go up with Dirk, Carter, Calderon, & all the other Mavs that give him spacing???

Bucks had no scorers except Jennings so he HAD to shoot a lot and go check how many of those shots were with less than 10 seconds on shot clock. He had no help

In Golden State he had an average FG% of 45%!!! One year he had 50%!!!

He said he is going back to Golden State basketball where he was effecient and attacking more. He loves this team and that he won't get double teams anymore with Dirk and the other shooters on the team

You all are also riding Dirk off!! He missed a third of the season last year and we were a few games out of the playoffs with a trash roster. Think about that for a second....

Dirk said he is the healthiest he has been in the last few years.

The Mavs have a 69% winning percentage when Dirk is healthy and make the playoffs every year when he is healthy.

We constantly get doubted on here and I can't wait to prove the haters wrong

You all are also riding off a top 5 coach in the NBA

He will make Monta the 5th or 6th best SG in the NBA (There is not that much competition after Kobe, Wade, Harden, George)

I can't wait for the season to start to prove y'all wrong like I did the first season I joined PSD. I was talking trash the whole season and everyone doubted us then we won the championship and all the haters went away but now they are back because of Monta

Buckle your seat belts folks. I'm back.

:dance:

Goose17
10-13-2013, 12:33 PM
I love that people can only talk about his shooting percentage hahaha

Or that he was #1 in steals for shooting guards



I already addressed his steals. That number is deceiving, his defense is going to be awful this year because he doesn't have that inside presence covering his flaws and mistakes all the time like he did in Milwaukee. Go read my earlier post.

Goose17
10-13-2013, 12:35 PM
You all are also riding Dirk off!! He missed a third of the season last year and we were a few games out of the playoffs with

You all are also riding off a top 5 coach in the NBA


I think the phrase you're meaning is "writing X off"

"Riding" someone off isn't a thing.

hugepatsfan
10-13-2013, 01:24 PM
I love that people can only talk about his shooting percentage hahaha

They don't bring up he was #1 in assists for shooting guards

Or that he was #1 in steals for shooting guards

Also that he was top 15 in rebounds for shooting guards

You honestly don't believe his shooting percentage won't go up with Dirk, Carter, Calderon, & all the other Mavs that give him spacing???

Bucks had no scorers except Jennings so he HAD to shoot a lot and go check how many of those shots were with less than 10 seconds on shot clock. He had no help

In Golden State he had an average FG% of 45%!!! One year he had 50%!!!

He said he is going back to Golden State basketball where he was effecient and attacking more. He loves this team and that he won't get double teams anymore with Dirk and the other shooters on the team

You all are also riding Dirk off!! He missed a third of the season last year and we were a few games out of the playoffs with a trash roster. Think about that for a second....

Dirk said he is the healthiest he has been in the last few years.

The Mavs have a 69% winning percentage when Dirk is healthy and make the playoffs every year when he is healthy.

We constantly get doubted on here and I can't wait to prove the haters wrong

You all are also riding off a top 5 coach in the NBA

He will make Monta the 5th or 6th best SG in the NBA (There is not that much competition after Kobe, Wade, Harden, George)

I can't wait for the season to start to prove y'all wrong like I did the first season I joined PSD. I was talking trash the whole season and everyone doubted us then we won the championship and all the haters went away but now they are back because of Monta

Buckle your seat belts folks. I'm back.

:dance:

Pretty sure you're the one riding off Dirk... or at least you'd like to be.

IndyRealist
10-13-2013, 01:32 PM
Monta has always been an inefficient chucker, a volume scorer who brings nothing else to a team.
*snip*

That's actually untrue. In his 3rd year he shot 54.5% on 2's and shot a career low 0.8 3's per 48 minutes. He was incredibly efficient. Then he had the moped incident and hasn't been the same player since. This isn't a JR Smith/Jamal Crawford/Carmelo Anthony situation, where they CAN be more efficient players but they choose not to. I think Monta literally CAN'T play efficiently due to the injury. You can look at his year to year statistics and see his 2pt FG% drop and his 3pt attempts go up, every single year.

Given the structure of the Mavs, I can see him functioning more as a weak side spot up shooter and 2nd unit facilitator. Given the talent disparity between starters and bench players, gimpy Ellis may still be effective beating 2nd units. To maximize his effectiveness, they need to minimize what he can't do well (dribble-drive, pull up 3's) and focus on what he can do (spot up shooting, "defending", facilitating). And putting him up against lesser competition couldn't hurt, either.

FlashBolt
10-13-2013, 01:32 PM
The level of blasphemy presented by some posters defending Monta is laughable. We're a hater because statistics and simple eye projections show Monta is inefficient? Do you think calling someone a hater excludes the fact that what we're saying is factual? Ella won't succeed because he's not a very smart player. He and Jennings are jokers. Think a wannabe Allen Iverson but can't actually make a damn thing. Is he a good passer? He doesn't even look to pass. Can he defend? Please don't answer that with a straight face and say yes. So what do you see in his game that he succeeds in?

Goose17
10-13-2013, 01:37 PM
This isn't a JR Smith/Jamal Crawford/Carmelo Anthony situation, where they CAN be more efficient players but they choose not to.

I like you. Despite disagreeing about Monta (you might be right though), your perception of those three^ (Melo especially) gives you a +1 in my book.

IndyRealist
10-13-2013, 01:49 PM
I love that people can only talk about his shooting percentage hahaha
*snip*
You honestly don't believe his shooting percentage won't go up with Dirk, Carter, Calderon, & all the other Mavs that give him spacing???
*snip*

Shooting efficiency is the single most important factor in a player's effectiveness. So if he doesn't shoot efficiently, and he shoots a lot, then he is AT BEST countering all the good things he does do. More likely, it's a net loss.

If you look at my other post, you'll see why I think providing space for Ellis to iso would be the worst thing the Mavs could do. What they need to do is make him a wide open spot up shooter with the starters, and a facilitator with the 2nd unit when Calderon is out.

ll_eric_ll
10-13-2013, 02:22 PM
I love all these so called experts that can tell tha future,..lol and can say with no doubt that Ellis will have a "Bad" season,.. with all of these vets around him,.. I remember when everybody labeled Chandler as "done",.. "on tha decline",.. and JAson Kidd,.. ohh hell naw!!, he was too old lol.. I wont call ya'll haters,.. But ya doubters, have to admit, that the "right" situacion can do wonders for a guy's career, Monta has always had tha talent, and now has one of the NBA's top systems on his side,.. Cant wait for this season to get rollin,...

Guppyfighter
10-13-2013, 02:35 PM
I love all these so called experts that can tell tha future,..lol and can say with no doubt that Ellis will have a "Bad" season,.. with all of these vets around him,.. I remember when everybody labeled Chandler as "done",.. "on tha decline",.. and JAson Kidd,.. ohh hell naw!!, he was too old lol.. I wont call ya'll haters,.. But ya doubters, have to admit, that the "right" situacion can do wonders for a guy's career, Monta has always had tha talent, and now has one of the NBA's top systems on his side,.. Cant wait for this season to get rollin,...

I can't understand what you are saying.

Guppyfighter
10-13-2013, 02:38 PM
Ellis isn't even bad just because of all the isolation. He ranks 225 in the league on the fast break. He ranks just as low in the pick and roll and spot up shooting. He doesn't do anything well.

IndyRealist
10-13-2013, 03:05 PM
Ellis isn't even bad just because of all the isolation. He ranks 225 in the league on the fast break. He ranks just as low in the pick and roll and spot up shooting. He doesn't do anything well.

Absolutely. For him to be successful he's going to have to play dramatically differently than he ever has. It will help if he's a 4th option (or 6th) as opposed to 1st or 2nd. I'm as big a stathead as anybody here, but I acknowledge that changing roles and usage can dramatically affect efficiency. If Calderon handles the ball and the offense runs through Dirk, there's no reason that Monta couldn't transition into a mid-usage, average efficiency player. Especially if he's spending time at PG with the 2nd unit. All about context.

Chronz
10-13-2013, 03:12 PM
1. Curry improved a lot because he was healthy and because he got a well balanced team Ellis never had. Compare the roster Curry had last year to Monta's rosters 2007 on.

2. Jennings didn't regress. He's stayed at the same level all 4 of his years. Stop pulling **** out of your ***.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jennibr01.html
I do think Milwaukee gave equal reign of the offense to both players, I think they meshed better than he and Curry did tho.


Curry's stats have actually been the same all four years too except for his passing. And yes, the games Curry and Ellis played together Curry was noticeably worse statistically.
They both looked better without the other, I think that was part of the problem. Their redundancy is what allowed them to trade for a bigman and improve.

Chronz
10-13-2013, 03:19 PM
I think he will get around 22-25 a game with 6-7 assists. His fg% should go up with dirk in his team

Thats a really optimistic view. They should be pretty reliant on his scoring and durability. I do think he should have his best year in a long time but Im not expecting a return to dominant form either.

ll_eric_ll
10-13-2013, 03:22 PM
I can't understand what you are saying.

Ohh,.. In a nut sell,.. Kidd and Chandler both flourished in Carlisle's system, so Why cant Monta Ellis?

Chronz
10-13-2013, 03:31 PM
Ohh,.. In a nut sell,.. Kidd and Chandler both flourished in Carlisle's system, so Why cant Monta Ellis?
So every player that Cuban has rolled the dice on has been a success? Sounds like hes defied the odds.

ll_eric_ll
10-13-2013, 03:38 PM
Tha list of players that have benefited from playing with Dirk should be an indicator, of how Monta will have a much better stint with tha Mavs, than any of his previous teams.. He is in his prime, and still with a little room to grow!! is there any work ethis problem with Monta? no!!! is he hungry to prove yall doubters wrong?? yeah!!! I'll gladly go to war with a player of Monta mindset and skill level NOW, especially, that he will have weapons around him.. since part of his game is being a very creative passer as well.

Chronz
10-13-2013, 03:43 PM
Well put. He is the most talented FA they've had in awhile, should be an interesting season.

ll_eric_ll
10-13-2013, 03:43 PM
So every player that Cuban has rolled the dice on has been a success? Sounds like hes defied the odds.

Im not saying that Cuban has a spotless record,.. every Owner/gm has his share of misses. But one thing that is undeniable IMO is that Ellis is a play maker. As much success as Dirk's Had in his Hall Of Fame career, He hasnt always been surrounded by players like Ellis, that can create for him self, and others,.. and on top of that can drive tha ball to the hole!!,.. that threat along with Dirks jumpshot will be tought to guard of the pick n roll.

Guppyfighter
10-13-2013, 03:54 PM
Tha list of players that have benefited from playing with Dirk should be an indicator, of how Monta will have a much better stint with tha Mavs, than any of his previous teams.. He is in his prime, and still with a little room to grow!! is there any work ethis problem with Monta? no!!! is he hungry to prove yall doubters wrong?? yeah!!! I'll gladly go to war with a player of Monta mindset and skill level NOW, especially, that he will have weapons around him.. since part of his game is being a very creative passer as well.


OJ Mayo played noticeably worse with Dirk, actually.

ll_eric_ll
10-13-2013, 04:25 PM
OJ Mayo played noticeably worse with Dirk, actually.

Actually??,.. i dont recall ever saying OJ played Better or Worse with Dirk,.. I think this last post is simply you trolling the Mavs balls,.. But I'll humor you. Guppy, go Ask anybody that has ever played with Dirk, weather playing with him made their jobs easier.. The answers should not surprise the unbiased NBA fan, because we are able to recognize and respect greatness when we see it, whether is in your own team or a rival. But it might surprise YOU to learn that Dirk is actually a great facilitator to most if not all of his teammates. Even for Players like OJ,.. I think Dirk had very little to do with OJ Mayo's failures in Dallas.

MrfadeawayJB
10-13-2013, 05:11 PM
I think he will get around 22-25 a game with 6-7 assists. His fg% should go up with dirk in his team

Thats a really optimistic view. They should be pretty reliant on his scoring and durability. I do think he should have his best year in a long time but Im not expecting a return to dominant form either.

I know it's optimistic, but from what I saw in a preseason game against Memphis was a guy who really enjoyed playing and the situation he was in. I agree this may be his best season yet

IndyRealist
10-13-2013, 05:28 PM
Ohh,.. In a nut sell,.. Kidd and Chandler both flourished in Carlisle's system, so Why cant Monta Ellis?
Kidd and Chandler were good players before Carlisle's system. Monta was not. It's not really a good comparison.

IndyRealist
10-13-2013, 05:40 PM
Im not saying that Cuban has a spotless record,.. every Owner/gm has his share of misses. But one thing that is undeniable IMO is that Ellis is a play maker. As much success as Dirk's Had in his Hall Of Fame career, He hasnt always been surrounded by players like Ellis, that can create for him self, and others,.. and on top of that can drive tha ball to the hole!!,.. that threat along with Dirks jumpshot will be tought to guard of the pick n roll.

He's not in his prime. If he never had the moped injury he'd be in his prime. But he has gotten worse every single year since. He also cannot drive to the hole effectively for the same reason. The numbers bear it out. If the plan is to give the ball to Ellis and iso or PnR then they are going to fail, spectacularly. He IS a playmaker, and I'd like him to play a PG type role when Calderon is on the bench. Being an Indiana fan I'm a firm believer in Carlisle's genius, and for the most part Cuban seems to trust his statisticians. But every once in a while Cuban pulls out some real head scratchers. Chris Kaman, anyone?

beasted86
10-13-2013, 06:57 PM
I'm excited to see Carlisle hold him accountable and what he can teach him. Monta was solid all around in his early years as a 6th man. He was defending, he was efficient, and he had a defined role. His coaches since then have struggled on what position to use him, and have often tried to use him as the primary scorer. He has the #1 in Dirk, has two veteran PGs and has good help defenders.

D-Leethal
10-13-2013, 07:50 PM
I think Monta could thrive in a glorified JJ Barea role for them. Speedy, penetrating scoring guards seem to mesh well with high post/elbow operators and and trailing stretch bigs.

Guppyfighter
10-13-2013, 08:13 PM
Actually??,.. i dont recall ever saying OJ played Better or Worse with Dirk,.. I think this last post is simply you trolling the Mavs balls,.. But I'll humor you. Guppy, go Ask anybody that has ever played with Dirk, weather playing with him made their jobs easier.. The answers should not surprise the unbiased NBA fan, because we are able to recognize and respect greatness when we see it, whether is in your own team or a rival. But it might surprise YOU to learn that Dirk is actually a great facilitator to most if not all of his teammates. Even for Players like OJ,.. I think Dirk had very little to do with OJ Mayo's failures in Dallas.

Check Mayo's first half and second half splits and tell me he wasn't worse.

LTBaByyy
10-13-2013, 10:17 PM
I know it's optimistic, but from what I saw in a preseason game against Memphis was a guy who really enjoyed playing and the situation he was in. I agree this may be his best season yet

Thank you! People haven't seen him play lately.

He is happy!!! He was miserable in Mil and didn't care as much. Reason he settled for so may jumpshots

He even said it! He is happy and said he is going back to Monta Ball

Monta Ball: Effecient, Playmaking, Attacking, Rarely shooting Threes, Scoring, One Man Fastbreak

Guppyfighter
10-13-2013, 10:25 PM
Thank you! People haven't seen him play lately.

He is happy!!! He was miserable in Mil and didn't care as much. Reason he settled for so may jumpshots

He even said it! He is happy and said he is going back to Monta Ball

Monta Ball: Effecient, Playmaking, Attacking, Rarely shooting Threes, Scoring, One Man Fastbreak

Except he ranked 225 in the league on fastbreak.

LTBaByyy
10-13-2013, 10:29 PM
Check Mayo's first half and second half splits and tell me he wasn't worse.

People have said you are Monta hater on here and I see it's true, especially with your signature

You are honestly not analyzing him and yet you are trolling

LTBaByyy
10-13-2013, 10:31 PM
This guy really hates Monta hahahaha

That's so funny.

TimeForAHoliday
10-13-2013, 10:49 PM
The hate for Monta on this board is ridiculous.. you guys use advanced stats to base your argument, which is a complete joke..if you actually have watched basketball the last 5 years you could tell that Monta was in a bad situation in Milwaukee. When he was with Golden State he created a lot of problems for teams with his passing ability and his ability to create off the dribble. He's a very good player, not quite elite. I think he'll have something like 20/7 on 44% this year.

LTBaByyy
10-13-2013, 10:51 PM
I'm excited to see Carlisle hold him accountable and what he can teach him. Monta was solid all around in his early years as a 6th man. He was defending, he was efficient, and he had a defined role. His coaches since then have struggled on what position to use him, and have often tried to use him as the primary scorer. He has the #1 in Dirk, has two veteran PGs and has good help defenders.

Thank you.

No one is saying he is going to be a superstar.

Carlisle, Winning Franchise, Playing Style, & the Personnel around him can lead to him being the 5th-6th best SG and turn his career around

I am not being a homer because I say Mavs make 7th seed

Next summer is where I am excited because Mavs have the second most cap space next summer (30-35 mil) with Dirk willing to take as much of a paycut necessary to make the team elite again and a new GM that helped Morey bring Harden and Howard to Houston

And this time we will have people on the roster next summer opposed to this summer (Dirk, Calderon, Ellis, Dalembert, Ellington, Brandan Wright, Shane Larkin, Jae Crowder, Ricky Ledo, Gal Mekel)

I'm excited.

Chronz
10-13-2013, 10:56 PM
Except he ranked 225 in the league on fastbreak.
Efficiency without usage is irrelevant.

Guppyfighter
10-13-2013, 11:35 PM
People have said you are Monta hater on here and I see it's true, especially with your signature

You are honestly not analyzing him and yet you are trolling

No, my sig is meant to make fun of the guy who thinks KLove is just as good Ellis. Not to make fun of Ellis.

asandhu23
10-14-2013, 12:38 AM
No, my sig is meant to make fun of the guy who thinks KLove is just as good Ellis. Not to make fun of Ellis.


********. Your intention is to make fun of Mibs' name.

Guppyfighter
10-14-2013, 01:30 AM
********. Your intention is to make fun of Mibs' name.

No, he thinks Love sucks and I think that position is more crazy than thinking Ellis is good.

Guppyfighter
10-14-2013, 01:30 AM
Efficiency without usage is irrelevant.


He was the league average in usage on the fast break. Eleven percent.

Tony_Starks
10-14-2013, 02:05 AM
I'm expecting a nice year from Monta. The advanced stat guys will just call him a chucker anyway but what else is new....

Goose17
10-14-2013, 10:56 AM
The hate for Monta on this board is ridiculous.. you guys use advanced stats to base your argument, which is a complete joke..if you actually have watched basketball the last 5 years you could tell that Monta was in a bad situation in Milwaukee. When he was with Golden State he created a lot of problems for teams with his passing ability and his ability to create off the dribble. He's a very good player, not quite elite. I think he'll have something like 20/7 on 44% this year.

As a dubs fan I watched him A LOT. He was great for highlights but after his second season I was no longer a fan, I knew we could have worse but we could also have better. By the time we traded him I was ecstatic to see him go.

Some fans didn't like the Bogut trade. On the other hand I would have been happy trading Monta for a bag of doritos and a pepsi.

He's overrated. But if he had been born a few years earlier he would have thrived in the early Iverson era (before efficency stats had really taken off).

I don't dislike the guy, I just think he will need to be a part of a very specific system and type of team to be effective. I'm not convinced he will thrive in Dallas.

He wasn't ever a good fit for my Warriors and he wasn't a good fit for milwaukee.

IndyRealist
10-14-2013, 11:42 AM
Thank you! People haven't seen him play lately.

He is happy!!! He was miserable in Mil and didn't care as much. Reason he settled for so may jumpshots

He even said it! He is happy and said he is going back to Monta Ball

Monta Ball: Effecient, Playmaking, Attacking, Rarely shooting Threes, Scoring, One Man Fastbreak
Ellis only ever played that way ONE year, his third. Every year besides that one he's been beyond inefficient and a 3pt chucker.

And saying that Monta could become the 5th or 6th best SG is, most definitely, a homer statement. That would require him to play drastically different from how he has his ENTIRE career, aside from one season.

beasted86
10-14-2013, 12:20 PM
Ellis only ever played that way ONE year, his third. Every year besides that one he's been beyond inefficient and a 3pt chucker.

And saying that Monta could become the 5th or 6th best SG is, most definitely, a homer statement. That would require him to play drastically different from how he has his ENTIRE career, aside from one season.

I think you really need to look at the above sentence objectively. We have Wade, Kobe, Harden, and then what? Can you realistically count Paul George as a SG? I don't. I personally think Ginobili is done being a top SG. You have Joe Johnson, Andre Iguodala, Klay Thompson, Kevin Martin, Jamal Crawford, JR Smith? I mean are these guys dead locked in a 4-6 ranking? No way at all. It is easily imaginable than Monta could have a better season than any of them, or any of them could have a worse or better season than each other. Monta definitely has a chance to grab a 5-6 spot with how mediocre the position is.

Chronz
10-14-2013, 12:32 PM
He was the league average in usage on the fast break. Eleven percent.
Thats pretty good

Goose17
10-14-2013, 02:11 PM
And saying that Monta could become the 5th or 6th best SG is, most definitely, a homer statement.

I agree Monta is inefficient etc, and 5th or 6th is a stretch but he's definitely around the top 10 SG's. Mainly due to a lack of depth at that position than anything else.

In no specific order I'm personally thinking; Wade, Harden, Kobe, Iggy (unless you're counting him as an SF?), Klay, Shump, Reddick, Manu, Joe Johnson.


After that it becomes it a little more subjective, taking into account age, contract, consistency, the type of player they are (it becomes more about fitting specific teams now imo) I can totally see Ellis being grouped with (or placed above) Crawford, Allen, K-Mart, JR Smith, Waiters, Gordon, Evans(?) etc


You could make an argument for him being 10th, maybe tied 10th with a couple of those other names.

jstone0716
10-14-2013, 02:34 PM
I really do think he can change his game up and become a top SG. Everyone knows the kid has great potential. He just needs to tweak his game a bit ( stop taking 3s and bad jump shots, drive more ).

Sure he's played with -good- players in GS, but he's never played anyone great ( albeit aged a bit ) and he's never ever had the type of veteran leadership that the Mavericks have... up and down their roster and nothing but selfless hardworking veterans to rub off on him.

I suspect he puts up 20/4/6 on 46-47% FG and less than 100 3's attempted, with improved defense.

Tony_Starks
10-14-2013, 02:36 PM
Outside of Kobe, Wade, Joe Johnson and Harden I see no reason why he couldn't be in contention for that next spot. In particular when he's playing with the best player, best passer, and for the best coach he's ever played for.

jstone0716
10-14-2013, 02:45 PM
Outside of Kobe, Wade, Joe Johnson and Harden I see no reason why he couldn't be in contention for that next spot. In particular when he's playing with the best player, best passer, and for the best coach he's ever played for.

Well said.

BlinkManJan02
10-14-2013, 02:49 PM
He seems pretty deece. I'm glad he is out of Milwaukee though.

Guppyfighter
10-14-2013, 02:52 PM
Thats pretty good

Consider this. He puts up the same points per possession in the fastbreak as Kobe does in the post (Kobe with 13 percent of his plays going to post play.)

ThuglifeJ
10-14-2013, 02:53 PM
Lol this isn't baseball. Ppl who spew advanced stats in basketball make ME want to spew

Guppyfighter
10-14-2013, 02:56 PM
Lol this isn't baseball. Ppl who spew advanced stats in basketball make ME want to spew

This changes everything. Good thing guys like Morey and Hollinger don't have jobs and the NBA recognizes basketball is not baseball.

beasted86
10-14-2013, 03:56 PM
This changes everything. Good thing guys like Morey and Hollinger don't have jobs and the NBA recognizes basketball is not baseball.

What has Morey won again as GM? Nothing. 1 playoff series in like 6 years of being GM. His team also missed the playoffs 3 of those 7 years.

Hollinger has only been with Memphis 1 season, but the Tayshaun Prince trade didn't help. He has been complete trash to be honest since the trade, and was outplayed by Pondexter.

jstone0716
10-14-2013, 04:28 PM
What has Morey won again as GM? Nothing. 1 playoff series in like 6 years of being GM. His team also missed the playoffs 3 of those 7 years.

Hollinger has only been with Memphis 1 season, but the Tayshaun Prince trade didn't help. He has been complete trash to be honest since the trade, and was outplayed by Pondexter.

Better than Gay

beasted86
10-14-2013, 04:46 PM
Better than Gay

Nope.

Even by advanced stats, Prince was less efficient, and a weaker passer, rebounder, and defender. He was all around a worse player than Gay, and the gap only increased with him having the worst playoff performance of his career. The only thing he does is make less money.

Chronz
10-14-2013, 05:02 PM
Lol this isn't baseball. Ppl who spew advanced stats in basketball make ME want to spew

People who bring up baseball as some sort of rebuttal make me chuckle.

Chronz
10-14-2013, 05:05 PM
What has Morey won again as GM? Nothing. 1 playoff series in like 6 years of being GM. His team also missed the playoffs 3 of those 7 years.

Hollinger has only been with Memphis 1 season, but the Tayshaun Prince trade didn't help. He has been complete trash to be honest since the trade, and was outplayed by Pondexter.
A GM who gets Bron-Wade-Bosh is likely to win more than a guy who can find solid players late in the draft. But it doesn't take any sort of genius insight to know those players will help more, it does take a high level of genius to be able to surround the team with diamonds in the rough.


The Prince trade most definitely helped. Outplayed by Pondexter? Now whos the one making basketball out to be baseball? This isnt just about 1 on 1, its about how you influence the team. Getting rid of Gay was necessary in improving the team and the results were evident from day 1. He didn't get Prince so much as he got rid of a cancer.

beasted86
10-14-2013, 05:13 PM
A GM who gets Bron-Wade-Bosh is likely to win more than a guy who can find solid players late in the draft. But it doesn't take any sort of genius insight to know those players will help more, it does take a high level of genius to be able to surround the team with diamonds in the rough.


The Prince trade most definitely helped. Outplayed by Pondexter? Now whos the one making basketball out to be baseball? This isnt just about 1 on 1, its about how you influence the team. Getting rid of Gay was necessary in improving the team and the results were evident from day 1. He didn't get Prince so much as he got rid of a cancer.
If you want to go the route of addition by subtraction that is fine, and I agree. But my version is that Tayshaun Prince is a worse all around player that simply takes less shots.

Tony_Starks
10-14-2013, 05:30 PM
Better than Gay

Prince himself doesn't even believe he's better than Gay. It was a cheapskate move, just like not bringing back the most successful coach in franchise history and promoting his assistant.

Wouldn't shock me at all if they dealt Z BO for scraps just for the helluva it. Yay Hollinger!

Chronz
10-14-2013, 06:05 PM
Prince himself doesn't even believe he's better than Gay. It was a cheapskate move, just like not bringing back the most successful coach in franchise history and promoting his assistant.

Wouldn't shock me at all if they dealt Z BO for scraps just for the helluva it. Yay Hollinger!
It wouldn't surprise me if they dealt Z-Bo either, it wouldn't be just for the helluvit tho, just like when they traded Gay, it would be to put the team in a better position. I dont know what they can get for an aging PF like Z-Bo so I dont know if they can improve the team in the now the way they did when they got rid of Gay but if Ed Davis pans out, then Z-Bo should be expendable. BTW Most successful coach doesn't make him their best coach ever, I really loved the job Hubie Brown did. And why would you keep a coach who doesn't understand the teams strategy and was already proven wrong when the team improved immediately upon jettisoning Gay.

Guppyfighter
10-14-2013, 06:14 PM
What has Morey won again as GM? Nothing. 1 playoff series in like 6 years of being GM. His team also missed the playoffs 3 of those 7 years.

Hollinger has only been with Memphis 1 season, but the Tayshaun Prince trade didn't help. He has been complete trash to be honest since the trade, and was outplayed by Pondexter.

Your team uses advanced stats heavily. I laugh at your comment because it reminds me of when Cardinal fans talk **** about WAR and teams that use it when their team uses WAR.

That being said, after Memphis completed the trade they went the farthest they ever been and up their season winning percentage five percentage points. Clearly Hollinger had a huge impact.

Morey is also amazing.

Guppyfighter
10-14-2013, 06:16 PM
Prince himself doesn't even believe he's better than Gay. It was a cheapskate move, just like not bringing back the most successful coach in franchise history and promoting his assistant.

Wouldn't shock me at all if they dealt Z BO for scraps just for the helluva it. Yay Hollinger!

No one wanted to hire him for a reason. Prince is not as talented as Gay, but not shooting 20 times a game at his clip is better. You want to choose between who shoots a shot, Gay. You want to win more games and play team basketball, Prince. The Grizzlies offense got better by seven points without Gay. Why? Not because of Prince. Prince isn't good. So, you tell me why.

beasted86
10-14-2013, 07:50 PM
Your team uses advanced stats heavily. I laugh at your comment because it reminds me of when Cardinal fans talk **** about WAR and teams that use it when their team uses WAR.

That being said, after Memphis completed the trade they went the farthest they ever been and up their season winning percentage five percentage points. Clearly Hollinger had a huge impact.

Morey is also amazing.
First things first, using advanced stats, and relying on advanced stats are two separate things. From what I have seen of Riley, he has not built the team with advanced stats. Spo uses them more than Riley, but even still does not rely on them as much as before and seems to let the offense flow without as much play calling. I remember him trying to use these stats and shot charts to draw up plays for Beasley, Bosh, and even Wade in the post and it basically backfired all 3 times. He has since then installed a motion offense based on the pick and roll and multiple screens, and the HEAT have pretty much abandoned a post heavy offense except for spot plays for LeBron.

Second thing, Hollinger gets virtually no credit because Lionel Hollins didn't get along with him at all, disliked the Rudy Gay trade, and made it known his stance on advanced stats. If you are trying to sell me on the idea that Hollinger was doing some secret coaching of the team and is the real reason they got as far, that is a tough sell. Like I said, I can agree to the addition by subtraction with Rudy Gay who was having a below average year... but Prince was a worse player in all aspects of the game. They were probably better off trading Rudy Gay for some bench depth and cap space that would allow them to spend the full MLE this past summer, then letting Pondexter start. He was the more active defender, looked much better in the playoffs, and seems like the needed fit long term at the SF. Don't be surprised to see a battered up minimum salary Mike Miller take all of Prince's minutes come playoff time.

Lastly, Morey is a very solid GM. But to use him as the "face of advanced stats" was pretty laughable to me, and I felt the need to dispel the notion that he has been more successful than anyone else.

Hawkeye15
10-14-2013, 07:54 PM
What has Morey won again as GM? Nothing. 1 playoff series in like 6 years of being GM. His team also missed the playoffs 3 of those 7 years.

Hollinger has only been with Memphis 1 season, but the Tayshaun Prince trade didn't help. He has been complete trash to be honest since the trade, and was outplayed by Pondexter.

Morey was asked to rebuild while not allowed to tank. And he was able to draft enough pieces to bring in Harden, and create the cap space on top of that move to get Howard.

Pretty much the leading edge GM currently.

Hawkeye15
10-14-2013, 07:55 PM
Your team uses advanced stats heavily. I laugh at your comment because it reminds me of when Cardinal fans talk **** about WAR and teams that use it when their team uses WAR.

That being said, after Memphis completed the trade they went the farthest they ever been and up their season winning percentage five percentage points. Clearly Hollinger had a huge impact.

Morey is also amazing.

I found it awesome that Hollinger, a long time Gay critic, gets hired, they rifle him off, and get better.

Hawkeye15
10-14-2013, 07:56 PM
First things first, using advanced stats, and relying on advanced stats are two separate things. From what I have seen of Riley, he has not built the team with advanced stats. Spo uses them more than Riley, but even still does not rely on them as much as before and seems to let the offense flow without as much play calling. I remember him trying to use these stats and shot charts to draw up plays for Beasley, Bosh, and even Wade in the post and it basically backfired all 3 times. He has since then installed a motion offense based on the pick and roll and multiple screens, and the HEAT have pretty much abandoned a post heavy offense except for spot plays for LeBron.

Second thing, Hollinger gets virtually no credit because Lionel Hollins didn't get along with him at all, disliked the Rudy Gay trade, and made it known his stance on advanced stats. If you are trying to sell me on the idea that Hollinger was doing some secret coaching of the team and is the real reason they got as far, that is a tough sell. Like I said, I can agree to the addition by subtraction with Rudy Gay who was having a below average year... but Prince was a worse player in all aspects of the game. They were probably better off trading Rudy Gay for some bench depth and cap space that would allow them to spend the full MLE this past summer, then letting Pondexter start. He was the more active defender, looked much better in the playoffs, and seems like the needed fit long term at the SF. Don't be surprised to see a battered up minimum salary Mike Miller take all of Prince's minutes come playoff time.

Lastly, Morey is a very solid GM. But to use him as the "face of advanced stats" was pretty laughable to me, and I felt the need to dispel the notion that he has been more successful than anyone else.

of course man. agreed

beasted86
10-14-2013, 08:05 PM
Morey was asked to rebuild while not allowed to tank. And he was able to draft enough pieces to bring in Harden, and create the cap space on top of that move to get Howard.

Pretty much the leading edge GM currently.

Okay, so Riley did this in the early 2000s after Hardaway's knees disappeared and Mourning's kidney disease. 2 years later we were in the 2nd round of the playoffs, the following season ECF, next season Finals winner.

Barely anyone praises Riley, at least surely not to the extent of the Morey fans on this forum, and he didn't use advanced stats, and his GM and coaching led the team to the promised land. For as much praise as Morey gets, I'd just like to see some more results. Am I being too picky?

Guppyfighter
10-14-2013, 08:07 PM
Okay, so Riley did this in the early 2000s after Hardaway's knees disappeared and Mourning's kidney disease. 2 years later we were in the 2nd round of the playoffs, the following season ECF, next season Finals winner.

Barely anyone praises Riley, at least surely not to the extent of the Morey fans on this forum, and he didn't use advanced stats, and his GM and coaching led the team to the promised land. For as much praise as Morey gets, I'd just like to see some more results. Am I being too picky?

No one praises Riley? Jesus christ, you are on dope if you think that.

beasted86
10-14-2013, 08:18 PM
No one praises Riley? Jesus christ, you are on dope if you think that.

Well I'm pretty sure a few weeks ago when there was a thread about who were the best GMs in the league from all time and currently, people were mentioning Popovich/Buford, and Morey more than they were Riley.

Do a search, you might find it.

Guppyfighter
10-14-2013, 08:28 PM
Well I'm pretty sure a few weeks ago when there was a thread about who were the best GMs in the league from all time and currently, people were mentioning Popovich/Buford, and Morey more than they were Riley.

Do a search, you might find it.

Doesn't matter. That's not an accurate representation of what everyone feels. If you are knocking Morey because you feel as a Heat fan Pat is under appreciated you are being a homer.

Everyone considers Pat an elite GM.

beasted86
10-14-2013, 08:35 PM
Doesn't matter. That's not an accurate representation of what everyone feels. If you are knocking Morey because you feel as a Heat fan Pat is under appreciated you are being a homer.

Everyone considers Pat an elite GM.

No, that's not it at all. Like I said, I want to see some results. He has become a "household name" on this forum, while being the GM of a team with mediocre results. Playoffs 3 of 7 years, and a rebuilding effort that has the team with what I see as a mediocre supporting cast unless he flips Asik for a true PF. If he refuses to trade him, and the team sees and early playoff exit, I bet people would rather use Howard as the scapegoat than Morey.

Anyway, this has gotten way off topic from Monta Ellis.

Tony_Starks
10-14-2013, 08:55 PM
When it comes to players like Monta, Joe Johnson, Rudy Gay...you're advanced stat guys are always going to be negative on them because the first thing they cry is "efficiency."

Meanwhile the rest of us peons that just watch them play are usually fans of their game and know they just need to be in the right situation.

IndyRealist
10-14-2013, 09:02 PM
Lol this isn't baseball. Ppl who spew advanced stats in basketball make ME want to spew

Lol this isn't the 50's. People said the same thing in baseball until they were proven wrong.

IndyRealist
10-14-2013, 09:05 PM
When it comes to players like Monta, Joe Johnson, Rudy Gay...you're advanced stat guys are always going to be negative on them because the first thing they cry is "efficiency."

Meanwhile the rest of us peons that just watch them play are usually fans of their game and know they just need to be in the right situation.

Also known as, "doing your job well". Basketball may be the only profession where you are horrible at your niche job, yet somehow people think you are still good at it because you do it a crap ton. That, and maybe politics.

Tony_Starks
10-14-2013, 09:16 PM
Also known as, "doing your job well". Basketball may be the only profession where you are horrible at your niche job, yet somehow people think you are still good at it because you do it a crap ton. That, and maybe politics.

If somebody can give me like 20 and 5 a night on a decent percentage and hit big shots when i need them I could care less about their PER, TS, WS, or whatever other acronyms....... But that's just me ( shrug )

IndyRealist
10-14-2013, 09:20 PM
I think you really need to look at the above sentence objectively. We have Wade, Kobe, Harden, and then what? Can you realistically count Paul George as a SG? I don't. I personally think Ginobili is done being a top SG. You have Joe Johnson, Andre Iguodala, Klay Thompson, Kevin Martin, Jamal Crawford, JR Smith? I mean are these guys dead locked in a 4-6 ranking? No way at all. It is easily imaginable than Monta could have a better season than any of them, or any of them could have a worse or better season than each other. Monta definitely has a chance to grab a 5-6 spot with how mediocre the position is.
In no order, based on career to date, players I would -definitely- take over Monta Ellis:
James Harden
Kobe Bryant
Dwayne Wade
Andre Igoudala
Tony Allen
Jared Dudley
Jimmy Butler
Jarret Jack
Gordon Hayward
Tyreke Evans

Players I'd probably take over Ellis:
Thabo Sefolosha
Kevin Martin
Devin Harris
Wes Matthews
JR Smith
OJ Mayo
Marcus Thorton
JJ Reddick
Joe Johnson
Gerald Henderson
Klay Thompson

And that doesn't include guys who CAN play SG but don't generally:
Paul George
George Hill
Trevor Ariza
Matt Barnes
Danilo Galinari
Mike Dunleavy
Eric Bledsoe

Guppyfighter
10-14-2013, 09:34 PM
When it comes to players like Monta, Joe Johnson, Rudy Gay...you're advanced stat guys are always going to be negative on them because the first thing they cry is "efficiency."

Meanwhile the rest of us peons that just watch them play are usually fans of their game and know they just need to be in the right situation.

Yeah, you aren't going to do a whole lot of winning with those guys as your best player.

IndyRealist
10-14-2013, 09:48 PM
If somebody can give me like 20 and 5 a night on a decent percentage and hit big shots when i need them I could care less about their PER, TS, WS, or whatever other acronyms....... But that's just me ( shrug )
Monta shot 28.7% from 3, on an above average number of attempts for a SG. The average for a SG is 36.5%. He shot 45.3% on 2's, with the average SG shooting 46.5%. He's below average on 2's, he's WAY below average on 3's. He's even below average at FT% (77.3% vs. 80.4%). So how can someone be below average at EVERY aspect of scoring, yet still be a good scorer?

Tony_Starks
10-14-2013, 10:08 PM
Monta shot 28.7% from 3, on an above average number of attempts for a SG. The average for a SG is 36.5%. He shot 45.3% on 2's, with the average SG shooting 46.5%. He's below average on 2's, he's WAY below average on 3's. He's even below average at FT% (77.3% vs. 80.4%). So how can someone be below average at EVERY aspect of scoring, yet still be a good scorer?

I believe the premise of this is Monta THIS season. Big difference between with Calderone and Dirk as opposed to B Jennings and Sanders.

I suspect his percentages will increase not being the focal point of the defense....

IndyRealist
10-14-2013, 10:26 PM
Starks, the reason that acronyms exist is because people disproportionately value things that are less important (like points per game) and devalue things that ARE important to winning (shooting efficiency, net possessions). People do this because they've been force fed the simple box score that was developed half a century ago, and reinforced by sports media and especially ESPN, who treats fans like they're 6th graders. What's the first thing people note in a stat line? Points scored. What's the first thing you quoted here? Points per game. Why is it when Kobe scores 36 it's, "Lakers lose despite Kobe's impressive game" despite him shooting 12-35? (Made up numbers, Kobephiles. Calm down.) It should read, "Kobe shoots Lakers out of the game."

Chronz
10-14-2013, 10:35 PM
Okay, so Riley did this in the early 2000s after Hardaway's knees disappeared and Mourning's kidney disease. 2 years later we were in the 2nd round of the playoffs, the following season ECF, next season Finals winner.
He had the luxury of an early lotto pick and cap space. Morey had Tmac and Yao clogging up his CAP.


Barely anyone praises Riley, at least surely not to the extent of the Morey fans on this forum, and he didn't use advanced stats, and his GM and coaching led the team to the promised land. For as much praise as Morey gets, I'd just like to see some more results. Am I being too picky?
Yes. Riley was among the many to track stats not logged by the NBA. Its no coincidence he chose someone like Spo to take his place, Spo is a proponent of advanced stats. To give you an example of how much times have changed, the Lakers are the only known team to not send a rep to the Sloan conference (established by Morey).

IndyRealist
10-14-2013, 10:44 PM
I believe the premise of this is Monta THIS season. Big difference between with Calderone and Dirk as opposed to B Jennings and Sanders.

I suspect his percentages will increase not being the focal point of the defense....

And if you go back way through the thread, you'll see I said the same thing...IF he plays completely differently than he has virtually his entire career.

Tony_Starks
10-14-2013, 11:43 PM
And if you go back way through the thread, you'll see I said the same thing...IF he plays completely differently than he has virtually his entire career.

Well then we agree then because I think he's in a situation to succeed. This will be the most balanced, most structured situation he's played in and he's still young.

As far as advanced stats go I have such disdain for them because I'm not with this new school of thought that efficiency automatically= good player. It translates sometimes but there's plenty of times it doesn't because it doesn't take into account for things like the players role on the team, the system they play in, shot selection....etc.

But even I admit they do have a place, I just don't swear by them.

beasted86
10-15-2013, 12:21 AM
In no order, based on career to date, players I would -definitely- take over Monta Ellis:
James Harden
Kobe Bryant
Dwayne Wade
Andre Igoudala
Tony Allen
Jared Dudley
Jimmy Butler
Jarret Jack
Gordon Hayward
Tyreke Evans

Players I'd probably take over Ellis:
Thabo Sefolosha
Kevin Martin
Devin Harris
Wes Matthews
JR Smith
OJ Mayo
Marcus Thorton
JJ Reddick
Joe Johnson
Gerald Henderson
Klay Thompson

And that doesn't include guys who CAN play SG but don't generally:
Paul George
George Hill
Trevor Ariza
Matt Barnes
Danilo Galinari
Mike Dunleavy
Eric Bledsoe
This ranking overall makes no sense because most of these guys aside from Kobe, Wade, and Harden are either inconsistent, in new roles, older, or emerging players... all of them share the stigma of guys who don't have an established "season expectation".

With Kobe, Wade, and Harden, you know exactly what you are going to get... 20+ PPG, decent efficiency, rebounding and passing. The rest is a gamble on what you are going to get, its the very reason 4-10 is wide open.

I mean Iguodala could potentially be the 5th option scoring wise on GS, same for Joe Johnson on BK. Who knows what that does for their rhythm and efficiency. A guy like Kevin Martin could reprise his role as the NBA's Mr. Glass. Jr Smith could look like 2nd round JR for the first half of the season, which would mean he has no business being mentioned as a top SG. Can Jamal Crawford have the same impact playing behind newcomers Dudley and Reddick? I can do this for pretty much every guy you claim to be better than Monta not named Wade, Kobe, or Harden.

Also, it isn't about guys YOU would take over Ellis. Its about guy who are definitively and tangibly proven to be better than Ellis. The SG spot is wide open.

beasted86
10-15-2013, 12:25 AM
And if you go back way through the thread, you'll see I said the same thing...IF he plays completely differently than he has virtually his entire career.

This is wrong because it isn't his "entire career". Ellis has had efficient seasons where he was an all around threat.

LTBaByyy
10-15-2013, 12:46 AM
I swear people base Monta's whole career off of 1 and a half seasons with Bucks :laugh:

He was miserable there.

The people saying he's always been ineffecient and a ball hog :facepalm:

Did you just start watching him when he was traded to Milwuake???

tredigs
10-15-2013, 01:10 AM
I swear people base Monta's whole career off of 1 and a half seasons with Bucks :laugh:

He was miserable there.

The people saying he's always been ineffecient and a ball hog :facepalm:

Did you just start watching him when he was traded to Milwuake???
He is a ball stopper. Don't let assist numbers fool you. And given Dirk's age and Monta's confidence, he could very well think he's the leader of the Mavs already. Which, trust me - as a guy who has watched him from his rookie year until recently - will not bode well for Mavs.

But like I mentioned, this is a very solid situation for him, though not ideal (ideal would be a prime Dirk who was the clear #1 and if Calderon had the ability to shore up Monta's defensive deficiencies by guarding 2's). I think he'll do pretty well there.

Guppyfighter
10-15-2013, 01:38 AM
I swear people base Monta's whole career off of 1 and a half seasons with Bucks :laugh:

He was miserable there.

The people saying he's always been ineffecient and a ball hog :facepalm:

Did you just start watching him when he was traded to Milwuake???

He has had one good year and then any potential he had was destroyed by the moped accident. He sucked on the Warriors too.

Guppyfighter
10-15-2013, 01:41 AM
Well then we agree then because I think he's in a situation to succeed. This will be the most balanced, most structured situation he's played in and he's still young.

As far as advanced stats go I have such disdain for them because I'm not with this new school of thought that efficiency automatically= good player. It translates sometimes but there's plenty of times it doesn't because it doesn't take into account for things like the players role on the team, the system they play in, shot selection....etc.

But even I admit they do have a place, I just don't swear by them.


Get with the times or fall behind. Everything you say stats can't keep track of, do in fact keep track of that.

We have shot clock data, shot chart, usage, where their plays occur, etc.

I find this to be an odd comment even if it couldn't. You just expressed perceived problems you believe the stats have and than use traditional stats for Joe and Ellis as if they don't have the same problems but worse. You do not reject stats, you just use worse ones.

tredigs
10-15-2013, 02:11 AM
He has had one good year and then any potential he had was destroyed by the moped accident. He sucked on the Warriors too.

I don't see any lingering moped effects. That's a cop out. His struggles arose when Baron left and he became a #1 option. Monta needs to be on a team where there's a true #1, where he doesn't have to be the main playmaker, and preferably where he has a PG big enough to guard other 2's. I'd give him a 50/50 chance of thriving (to the best of his ability and the best since '08) in Dallas.

Guppyfighter
10-15-2013, 02:47 AM
I don't see any lingering moped effects. That's a cop out. His struggles arose when Baron left and he became a #1 option. Monta needs to be on a team where there's a true #1, where he doesn't have to be the main playmaker, and preferably where he has a PG big enough to guard other 2's. I'd give him a 50/50 chance of thriving (to the best of his ability and the best since '08) in Dallas.

He didn't have to be anything. He had David Lee and Curry on his team. Talented offensive options. He likes to play the way he did.

He lost a step with the moped accident. You don't go from the most efficient two guard in the league to absolute garbage because of one player. 590 to 520. That doesn't happen. Tears **** you up.

tredigs
10-15-2013, 03:32 AM
He didn't have to be anything. He had David Lee and Curry on his team. Talented offensive options. He likes to play the way he did.

He lost a step with the moped accident. You don't go from the most efficient two guard in the league to absolute garbage because of one player. 590 to 520. That doesn't happen. Tears **** you up.

He went from taking the 3rd most attempts on the team to the most attempts (it was closer than that seems, but still matters), and when Crawford replaced Baron the best wing defenders went for Monta. Those two changes were much more significant than his burst - which to me looked the same 2 years after the injury as it did before.

And I agree that he did not need to play the way he did, but with Curry and Lee he still felt like he was the best offensive player on the team (same with Jackson as he hit 30 along with Crawford). It shows in his game when he thinks he's the best player or not (whether or not that confidence is based in reality). That's why it's so important for Dallas that Dirk is healthy. If he's not, they'll get the lesser version of Monta. If he is, I'm betting we'll see his best year since 08.

Guppyfighter
10-15-2013, 03:37 AM
I am of the train of thought that he will never be as good because of the moped accident sapping his ability away and that's partially because I want to believe that. I'd rather think that he lost the talent than he is too stupid to use his talent.

Either way, I doubt we ever see third year Ellis again.

ThuglifeJ
10-15-2013, 04:10 AM
Lol this isn't baseball. Ppl who spew advanced stats in basketball make ME want to spew

Lol this isn't the 50's. People said the same thing in baseball until they were proven wrong.

Right because going up to hit at a plate is just the same as basketball. Basketball is the last sport you should use advanced stats to as you would baseball.

Basketball uses so much creativity and factors you can't put numbers on, offensively and defensively. In baseball you can go team to team and step up to the plate the same way. In basketball you're entire role as how you play or are used will be changed.

I don't need to get into detail on this..

Guppyfighter
10-15-2013, 04:13 AM
Right because going up to hit at a plate is just the same as basketball. Basketball is the last sport you should use advanced stats to as you would baseball.

Basketball uses so much creativity and factors you can't put numbers on, offensively and defensively. In baseball you can go team to team and step up to the plate the same way. In basketball you're entire role as how you play or are used will be changed.

I don't need to get into detail on this..


You are blowing my mind.

http://blog.mysanantonio.com/spursnation/2013/03/05/revenge-of-the-nerds-how-advanced-stats-took-over-the-nba/

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/miamiheat/post/_/id/4356/how-advanced-stats-changed-chris-boshs-game

http://espn.go.com/blog/playbook/tech/post/_/id/492/492

Every team pays 500k to mysynergysports for statistics.

Guppyfighter
10-15-2013, 04:16 AM
Fighting information leaves you behind with the rest of the historical numnuts that tried to do that.

TrueFan420
10-15-2013, 04:46 AM
Right because going up to hit at a plate is just the same as basketball. Basketball is the last sport you should use advanced stats to as you would baseball.

Basketball uses so much creativity and factors you can't put numbers on, offensively and defensively. In baseball you can go team to team and step up to the plate the same way. In basketball you're entire role as how you play or are used will be changed.

I don't need to get into detail on this..

You can't ignore advanced stats. They have value and while I won't base everything on them they do give insight. A combination of advanced stats and actually watching the game is the best way to determine a players value. On their own both are flawed. When combined still flaws but less so.

lol, please
10-15-2013, 04:53 AM
You are blowing my mind.

http://blog.mysanantonio.com/spursnation/2013/03/05/revenge-of-the-nerds-how-advanced-stats-took-over-the-nba/

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/miamiheat/post/_/id/4356/how-advanced-stats-changed-chris-boshs-game

http://espn.go.com/blog/playbook/tech/post/_/id/492/492

Every team pays 500k to mysynergysports for statistics.


Fighting information leaves you behind with the rest of the historical numnuts that tried to do that.


You can't ignore advanced stats. They have value and while I won't base everything on them they do give insight. A combination of advanced stats and actually watching the game is the best way to determine a players value. On their own both are flawed. When combined still flaws but less so.

Warriors fans making me proud. :clap:

IndyRealist
10-15-2013, 12:38 PM
This is wrong because it isn't his "entire career". Ellis has had efficient seasons where he was an all around threat.

Vastly untrue. Ellis had ONE efficient year. Every other year he's been remarkably inefficient. This is why numbers matter, because human memory is faulty. The fact that you continue to quote ppg like it matters shows you don't really understand efficiency or why it matters.

You point that some players on my list haven't established year to year expectations. True. But Monta has, and it's not good. He's established that he's going to take a 3 every 10 mins played, and that he's going to be really bad at it. He's established that his 2pt FG% will likely decline AGAIN this year, as has been the trend since the moped incident.

Whatever else he brings to the table, he's not a good scorer, is unlikely to improve this far into his career, and hurts his team by taking massive numbers of shots.

beasted86
10-15-2013, 12:49 PM
Ellis' 2nd and 3rd seasons were both efficient years, and unsurprisingly, were the best years GS had with better primary scorers allowing Ellis to keep his usage lower. His first 3 seasons in you thought he was off to a great career, and then he had the moped accident and his game changed.

I don't know if it is the accident itself, or trying to prove he was still worth the contract, or what if any incentives his contract may have had that forced him to play a certain style. We really don't know these types of things, that nobody ever talks about on a forum.

Either way, I think he can really bounce back to those earlier season if he finds the right internal and external discipline.

IndyRealist
10-15-2013, 12:50 PM
I don't see any lingering moped effects. That's a cop out. His struggles arose when Baron left and he became a #1 option. Monta needs to be on a team where there's a true #1, where he doesn't have to be the main playmaker, and preferably where he has a PG big enough to guard other 2's. I'd give him a 50/50 chance of thriving (to the best of his ability and the best since '08) in Dallas.

You can clearly draw a line in his career preinjury and post. He goes from improving to declining. His 2pt FG% goes down, his 3pt attempts go up, which would be consistent with a bum knee. So, you're saying it's coincidence? But Baron leaving isn't?

IndyRealist
10-15-2013, 12:58 PM
Ellis' 2nd and 3rd seasons were both efficient years, and unsurprisingly, were the best years GS had with better primary scorers allowing Ellis to keep his usage lower. His first 3 seasons in you thought he was off to a great career, and then he had the moped accident and his game changed.

I don't know if it is the accident itself, or trying to prove he was still worth the contract, or what if any incentives his contract may have had that forced him to play a certain style. We really don't know these types of things, that nobody ever talks about on a forum.

Either way, I think he can really bounce back to those earlier season if he finds the right internal and external discipline.

It's possible, but I don't think he has a choice. I think he can't sprint and cut like he used to. I keep mentioning his 2pt FG%. It gets lower every year. If I had to guess, I'd say his joint is deteriorating. But like you said, it's all speculation.

IndyRealist
10-15-2013, 01:06 PM
You can't ignore advanced stats. They have value and while I won't base everything on them they do give insight. A combination of advanced stats and actually watching the game is the best way to determine a players value. On their own both are flawed. When combined still flaws but less so.
Current advanced stats aren't really supposed to be the "answer". They're supposed to provoke questions. Why do Melo's numbers not match his reputation? Why do stats like Javale Mcgee so much? Or Kenneth Faried?

Mr.SmackYoMama
10-15-2013, 01:07 PM
Yeah, Curry's never played with a hyper efficient point guard (Curry) and an efficient big man who can finish near the rim and has a shot (Lee).

He's clearly never been in a situation where he was allowed to have his offensive talents shined. It was just all the other players fault.

Hahahaha exactly.....Monta is me 1st and will always be that way. He will put up points but at the expense of every1 else!

tredigs
10-15-2013, 01:31 PM
You can clearly draw a line in his career preinjury and post. He goes from improving to declining. His 2pt FG% goes down, his 3pt attempts go up, which would be consistent with a bum knee. So, you're saying it's coincidence? But Baron leaving isn't?

Well, it was his ankle, not knee, and yes I do think the timing is coincidence. He went from a #3 option who both got to guard the lesser of the guards defensively and have the lesser of the opponents wing defenders guard him to the #1 option and the opposite role wise. That, coupled with a lack of leadership to keep his chucking in check, can cause a major rift in a players development. And it did.

It's not like we have his lateral quickness #s post surgery, but it was fairly clear to me that he still had ridiculous burst and that it didn't seem to linger past that 09 season. Which goes in line with him leading the league in mpg in back to back seasons while going from a 15 fga/g to 20+ as a #1 option following the injury. Another good sign that they expected a 100% recovery was the fact that the Warriors did not tear up his contract or renegotiate, which was well within their rights.

TrueFan420
10-15-2013, 04:20 PM
You can clearly draw a line in his career preinjury and post. He goes from improving to declining. His 2pt FG% goes down, his 3pt attempts go up, which would be consistent with a bum knee. So, you're saying it's coincidence? But Baron leaving isn't?

Baron leaving wasn't the coincidence the injury is. Tredigs is a warriors fan as am I and we watched much more of him than you. His physical gifts are still there. Baron was massive for Ellis. Could match up with the two. Could find Ellis and get him easy looks. I think people forget how good baron was in his stint with the warriors. I'd even add in that it was also the loss of vet presence and Ellis being forced into a leadership role as a young guy when he clearly wasn't ready.

TrueFan420
10-15-2013, 04:23 PM
Current advanced stats aren't really supposed to be the "answer". They're supposed to provoke questions. Why do Melo's numbers not match his reputation? Why do stats like Javale Mcgee so much? Or Kenneth Faried?

I get that but some people do treat the advances stats as the end all of end alls to debates.

IndyRealist
10-15-2013, 06:11 PM
Baron leaving wasn't the coincidence the injury is. Tredigs is a warriors fan as am I and we watched much more of him than you. His physical gifts are still there. Baron was massive for Ellis. Could match up with the two. Could find Ellis and get him easy looks. I think people forget how good baron was in his stint with the warriors. I'd even add in that it was also the loss of vet presence and Ellis being forced into a leadership role as a young guy when he clearly wasn't ready.

If it were strictly BD leaving, then his 2pt FG% should have dropped then leveled out, not continued to drop every single year. It points to a decline in ability. And as people pointed out, he should still be in his prime. So why is he getting worse?

And the "I watch player X more, trust me" argument is kinda lame.

tredigs
10-15-2013, 08:36 PM
If it were strictly BD leaving, then his 2pt FG% should have dropped then leveled out, not continued to drop every single year. It points to a decline in ability. And as people pointed out, he should still be in his prime. So why is he getting worse?

And the "I watch player X more, trust me" argument is kinda lame.
Why do you suppose that his most aggressive season in taking it to the rim - statistically - was 2010? That sort of flies in the face of him losing confidence in his dribble drive / slashing ability.

What makes you so willing to dismiss going from a 3rd option with less defensive responsibility to a 1st option with more? And if he seemed hampered, do you think he would lead the entire NBA in mpg back to back years following the injury? He looked fine, literally no different. The eye test does matter, unless you have a stat that shows he lost lateral quickness?

Guppyfighter
10-15-2013, 10:52 PM
Why do you suppose that his most aggressive season in taking it to the rim - statistically - was 2010? That sort of flies in the face of him losing confidence in his dribble drive / slashing ability.

What makes you so willing to dismiss going from a 3rd option with less defensive responsibility to a 1st option with more? And if he seemed hampered, do you think he would lead the entire NBA in mpg back to back years following the injury? He looked fine, literally no different. The eye test does matter, unless you have a stat that shows he lost lateral quickness?

Eyes can not possibly quantify what you are talking about, though.


And being more aggressive has no indication about how good is explosiveness is and my eye test says that is less. What say you?

tredigs
10-16-2013, 01:03 AM
Eyes can not possibly quantify what you are talking about, though.


And being more aggressive has no indication about how good is explosiveness is and my eye test says that is less. What say you?

Our eyes do a better job than the non-existent public stat on the matter, I'd say. It's just silly to dismiss such a large role change as a non-factor in this particular scenario. Especially when it's so visibly clear what the issue is and is not to anybody paying attention.