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Il Mago50
10-11-2013, 06:12 PM
http://gambleguru.sportsblog.com/post/273442/dwight_howard_james_harden_and.html

What's everyone's view of how the Rockets do this season?

Htownballa1622
10-11-2013, 06:41 PM
I'm expecting a trip to the second round of the playoffs.

I'm hoping the team meshes well together and we got top 4 seed and somehow make it to the WCF.

That'd be a success in my eyes.

bearadonisdna
10-11-2013, 06:43 PM
I expect howard to be weird. he may play good but still i think theres gonna be some weird stuff coming out of houston.

Avenged
10-11-2013, 06:47 PM
Apparently they have a top 5 player in Harden, and if Dwight goes back to his Orlando days he's a top 3 player as well. My expectations would be at least the Finals.

Chronz
10-11-2013, 06:47 PM
Dominance

b@llhog24
10-11-2013, 07:06 PM
Semi/Conference Finals

b@llhog24
10-11-2013, 07:07 PM
Apparently they have a top 5 player in Harden, and if Dwight goes back to his Orlando days he's a top 3 player as well. My expectations would be at least the Finals.

As a Laker fan you should understand that formula doesn't always work out.

b@llhog24
10-11-2013, 07:09 PM
Houston was 6th in offense and 16th on defense. I'd expect them to be around 3-6 on offense and about top 8-10 defensively.

Hawkeye15
10-11-2013, 07:15 PM
55 wins, chance at WCF

Clippersfan86
10-11-2013, 07:56 PM
50-55 wins and 2nd round exit with punchers chance at WCF if they mesh rapidly

SteBO
10-11-2013, 08:14 PM
Maybe the WCF, but it depends on who they draw.....

goku
10-11-2013, 08:15 PM
hmmmmm Semi conference finals......... exit if they get off to a good start and chemistry is good WCF appearance

Bostonjorge
10-11-2013, 09:30 PM
If Howard can be the Howard in Orlando the last couple of years were he couldn't even get out of the 1st rd then I see them losing in the first rd.

If he is the Howard from last year then they get the broom. Harden can back kobe in the all star game as we'll.

Aust
10-11-2013, 09:35 PM
ringzzzzz

5ass
10-12-2013, 12:05 AM
If Howard can be the Howard in Orlando the last couple of years were he couldn't even get out of the 1st rd then I see them losing in the first rd.

If he is the Howard from last year then they get the broom. Harden can back kobe in the all star game as we'll.

Like when he averaged 27-15.5 with a 67 ts% in the 2011 play offs?

DDynO
10-12-2013, 03:24 AM
A season of great basketball.

big_w
10-12-2013, 07:30 AM
It's surprisingly difficult to say. They could be a second round washout.

Or, they could go to the WCF, or further.

This season hinges very heavily on the performances of their $50 million starters/subs: Omer and Lin. Will they start or be asked to come off the bench? Will they satisfied with their roles on the 2nd team? How many minutes will they play? Will they be dealt? Rumors of imminent trades swirled around both players all summer long. Do they feel like integral components of the team, esp. going into the future?

Are the rockets seriously considering starting BOTh Omer and Howard at the same time? The shooting range of both players is effectively 5 feet, if that.

What about Lin and Beverley?

Then there's the not so minor matter of who will man the 4. Will it be DM, or TJ? What about Casspi? Parsons? Greg Smith? Dwight Howard? Asik? Is there a trade in the works?

Third, there's the matter of Howard's health. He's already had several niggling injuries in the preseason. Can he stay healthy? (As an aside, does anyone actually think this guy is clean? You've got to suspect Howard as one of the leading PED suspects in the nba).

This team doesn't look like a finished product at all. I just don't think this is their year. They've got high quality problems, but they're still problems.

MonroeFAN
10-12-2013, 07:50 AM
If Howard can be the Howard in Orlando the last couple of years were he couldn't even get out of the 1st rd then I see them losing in the first rd.

If he is the Howard from last year then they get the broom. Harden can back kobe in the all star game as we'll.

what is this person talking about?

c.c.
10-12-2013, 08:22 AM
World champions

JayW_1023
10-12-2013, 09:08 AM
Patrick Beverely will "Beverley" some new victims with that signature rush-in steal. The guy is a pest.

Totally owning JRue Holiday here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZNuAbQ6PJ4

mightybosstone
10-12-2013, 09:32 AM
As a Rockets fan, I'm trying to temper my expectations. This was a young team last year that was constructed days before the start of the season and had nearly its entire starting five playing new roles. Yet they still managed to make the playoffs and give the Thunder fits in the postseason.

The addition of Howard while keeping Asik will make the post defense one of the best in the game, although I don't anticipate both guys being on the floor at the same time more than 5-10 minutes a night at the same time. Offensively, Howard is also just a massive upgrade offensively, especially in pick and roll situations, which Lin and Harden thrive in.

Combine that with the natural progression of Harden, Parsons, Lin, Beverley, Jones, etc. and I think you've got potential for anywhere from 50-60 wins and a 2-6 seed. The West is so strong and so deep that 2-3 wins here or there could mean a huge difference, and there's no telling where they'll end up in the seedings.

Personally, I'm not expecting championship contention this season. They probably should have been blown out in the first round of the playoffs last year, so if they get to the second round and have a really strong showing I'll be fairly pleased. If they make it to the WCF, I'll be absolutely thrilled, and should they make it to the Finals, it'll be like Christmas morning when I was seven.

In terms of statistical production, I think you'll see a slight drop in point production from Harden, but an even higher efficiency as he'll get far more open looks on the perimeter and his AST% should improve with the addition of Howard. And for Howard, I'm not expecting Orlando numbers, but I'm thinking something like 19/13. Parsons will again be in that 15/5/3 range, and I think Lin and Beverley will both be in double digit scoring with decent assists and steals.

Two things I'm really paying close attention to going into the season. Firstly, I think the Lin and Beverley PG duo is a good one, but Beverley is more suited to starting next to Harden and Lin is more suited as the sixth man running the offense when Harden is off the floor. The Rockets just experimented with that in the preseason game against Indiana and both guys had great games. Secondly, the PF position is a huge question mark, but the Rockets have insane versatility at that position. Jones will likely start, but I expect lengthy, stretch forwards like Parsons and Casspi to get some minutes there, as well as Howard when Asik comes in for defensive purposes and Smith and Motiejunas.

One guy to watch is Casspi. It's been a while since the guy has been a decent contributor in this league, but he is absolutely lighting it up in preseason. He's averaging 18.5 points and 6 rebounds while shooting a ridiculous percentage and scoring from all over the floor. He's a guy Morey coveted when he first came into the league, and Morey clearly sees something in him that works for this team.

FOBolous
10-12-2013, 01:57 PM
As a Rockets fan, I'm trying to temper my expectations. This was a young team last year that was constructed days before the start of the season and had nearly its entire starting five playing new roles. Yet they still managed to make the playoffs and give the Thunder fits in the postseason.

The addition of Howard while keeping Asik will make the post defense one of the best in the game, although I don't anticipate both guys being on the floor at the same time more than 5-10 minutes a night at the same time. Offensively, Howard is also just a massive upgrade offensively, especially in pick and roll situations, which Lin and Harden thrive in.

Combine that with the natural progression of Harden, Parsons, Lin, Beverley, Jones, etc. and I think you've got potential for anywhere from 50-60 wins and a 2-6 seed. The West is so strong and so deep that 2-3 wins here or there could mean a huge difference, and there's no telling where they'll end up in the seedings.

Personally, I'm not expecting championship contention this season. They probably should have been blown out in the first round of the playoffs last year, so if they get to the second round and have a really strong showing I'll be fairly pleased. If they make it to the WCF, I'll be absolutely thrilled, and should they make it to the Finals, it'll be like Christmas morning when I was seven.

In terms of statistical production, I think you'll see a slight drop in point production from Harden, but an even higher efficiency as he'll get far more open looks on the perimeter and his AST% should improve with the addition of Howard. And for Howard, I'm not expecting Orlando numbers, but I'm thinking something like 19/13. Parsons will again be in that 15/5/3 range, and I think Lin and Beverley will both be in double digit scoring with decent assists and steals.

Two things I'm really paying close attention to going into the season. Firstly, I think the Lin and Beverley PG duo is a good one, but Beverley is more suited to starting next to Harden and Lin is more suited as the sixth man running the offense when Harden is off the floor. The Rockets just experimented with that in the preseason game against Indiana and both guys had great games. Secondly, the PF position is a huge question mark, but the Rockets have insane versatility at that position. Jones will likely start, but I expect lengthy, stretch forwards like Parsons and Casspi to get some minutes there, as well as Howard when Asik comes in for defensive purposes and Smith and Motiejunas.

One guy to watch is Casspi. It's been a while since the guy has been a decent contributor in this league, but he is absolutely lighting it up in preseason. He's averaging 18.5 points and 6 rebounds while shooting a ridiculous percentage and scoring from all over the floor. He's a guy Morey coveted when he first came into the league, and Morey clearly sees something in him that works for this team.

I hate to say this because i'm a big fan of Lin but he seems better suited in a 6th man role on the Rockets. He's at his best with the ball in his hand facilitating the offense. He's able to do that coming off the bench. He absolutely thrived as the sixth man in the 2nd game of preseason. not only did HE thrived but all the other bench players had a great game due to Lin facilitating the offense...i may be exaggerating but it was almost like Linsanity over again...it was just Lin by himself carrying a whole bunch of average to below average players creating for himself and lifting the playing levels of the other players.

but yea, like McHale said, it's not about who's "better" but about "fit."

that being said, it was only 1 preseason game. i'm eager to see how the roster shapes up, and how each player performs, as the preseason progresses. and i LOVE the fact that our team is deep enough to where we have options. you can't ask for a better problem than this. and tbh, i don't mind the fact that we don't have an above average 4. i feel like the young 4s we have can grow into the position and i love the fact that we'll have either Lin or Beverly and Asik coming off the bench...so yeeea...i'm fine Morey doesn't make any more roster moves.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
10-12-2013, 02:02 PM
I think absolute best case scenario for them would be a trip to the Finals, meaning everyone is healthy come playoff time and either the Thunder or the Spurs have a big injury. While the worst case scenario would be a first round exit, which would happen because of either an injury or the Dwight/Asik thing doesn't work out.

XiangYu_Kobe
10-12-2013, 02:44 PM
I think Rockets shoot good basketball in this year, but Harden is more better than Howard. Howard he needs to be defensive and not to worry about to shoot. Jeremy Lin Shuhao is good player too, the Rockets has many good players. Western group is tough, so in the tournament there are many teams who are good.

LeperMessiah
10-12-2013, 03:07 PM
55 wins, chance at WCF

This, I think they are a lock for second round- anything beyond that is all on how good they actually are.

Bostonjorge
10-12-2013, 07:17 PM
How long has it been since Howard been good enough to get out of the first rd. Howard needs to be a Tyson chandler type player and just play D and rebound. Taking shots from harden is taking a step back for Houston not forward.

mightybosstone
10-12-2013, 07:48 PM
How long has it been since Howard been good enough to get out of the first rd. Howard needs to be a Tyson chandler type player and just play D and rebound. Taking shots from harden is taking a step back for Houston not forward.

You couldn't be more wrong about this. If Houston just needed someone to play defense and rebound, they would have stuck with Omer Asik as the starter. What they need is someone who can score in the post and he can score from the post in a pick and roll offense. The Rockets were last in the league last year in scoring out of the post, and as much as I love Asik and he made progress throughout the season, he really struggled at times to catch passes out of the pick and roll and finish out of the basket.

Howard's offensive ability will also help pull defenders on double teams and provide more open looks for the Rockets' perimeter shooters. There's a reason why Orlando was so deadly offensively for so long, and when you combine that style of play with the elite shooters Houston has, this has potential to be the best offense in the NBA.

jam
10-13-2013, 06:51 PM
Patrick Beverely will "Beverley" some new victims with that signature rush-in steal. The guy is a pest.

Totally owning JRue Holiday here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZNuAbQ6PJ4

Calm down. It's a preseason game. Based on the hype, you'd think he was a combination of michael jordan, scottie pippen, bill russell, willis reed, jesus christ, mohammed, gandhi, and denzel washington all in one.

Here's the reality once you look beyond the anti-Lin, racist hyperbole: BEVERLEY IS A GOOD DEFENSIVE 2ND STRING ROLE PLAYER. That's it. No more, no less.

Beverley lovers and Lin haters overlap one hundred percent. Cognitive dissonance at it's finest.

jam
10-13-2013, 07:01 PM
As far as the rockets overall, they're not sniffing a title with McPhail at the helm. And they certainly have the talent. McPhail doesn't know what the hell he's doing out there:

1. the harden iso's are just ugly basketball. If Howard thought he'd gotten away from the game's biggest ballhog, then he'll quickly learn that harden is not far behind. The fact that harden still plays this selfish brand of basketball is on mcphail. McPhail refuses to reprimand harden, to the team's detriment.

2. utilizing lin as a spot up shooter last season and having him ride the pine behind beverley this preseason? Idiotic.

3. trying to utilize howard as a post scorer? Howard's post game is ugly. He'd be much better as a pnr guy, but this play is surprisingly, rarely used with howard.

4. under-utilizing lin, over-utilizing harden, and holding harden unaccountable on both ends, by allowing him to lolly gag around on d, and by allowing him to eat up the entire shot clock, over dribble and then chuck up an ugly 3.


Mchale was one of the game's legends as a player. McPhail as a coach is embarrassing.

beasted86
10-13-2013, 07:05 PM
I actually like both PGs and want to see Lin succeed. Now that his over-hyping has died down, I can enjoy his game as a fan. Beverly is a HEAT type PG who comes to the game with defense first. I like him when he was with the HEAT and wanted him to earn a spot on the team, but he just couldn't because his mid-range jumpshot and 3 were broken at that point. I really like that he has put in the work to improve.

I think the Rockets aren't finished yet because they have no true starting PF. Once I can see the final team, I can make a better prediction. I'm not sold on Terrence Jones starting, and if they attempt to use any of the rest (Asik, Casspi, Montiejunas) they will surely fail.

shep33
10-13-2013, 07:12 PM
The west is so hard to predict, because in the first round they can draw teams like Memphis, Gstate or the Clips.

I think Memphis and Golden State match up really well with them. Multiple guys to guard Harden, and a solid defensive center to slow Dwight.

Tony_Starks
10-13-2013, 08:09 PM
Maybe a 2nd round exit. Lin is still the weakest link, I like Beverly a lot but I doubt he gets to start.

Also they need Howard to buy into dominating defensively and taking the offense as it comes which is no small task.

ILLUSIONIST^248
10-13-2013, 08:35 PM
First round exit most likely.

ILLUSIONIST^248
10-13-2013, 08:37 PM
i think rockets shoot good basketball in this year, but harden is more better than howard. Howard he needs to be defensive and not to worry about to shoot. Jeremy lin shuhao is good player too, the rockets has many good players. Western group is tough, so in the tournament there are many teams who are good.xD

ChiSox219
10-13-2013, 09:21 PM
Calm down. It's a preseason game. Based on the hype, you'd think he was a combination of michael jordan, scottie pippen, bill russell, willis reed, jesus christ, mohammed, gandhi, and denzel washington all in one.

Here's the reality once you look beyond the anti-Lin, racist hyperbole: BEVERLEY IS A GOOD DEFENSIVE 2ND STRING ROLE PLAYER. That's it. No more, no less.

Beverley lovers and Lin haters overlap one hundred percent. Cognitive dissonance at it's finest.


As far as the rockets overall, they're not sniffing a title with McPhail at the helm. And they certainly have the talent. McPhail doesn't know what the hell he's doing out there:

1. the harden iso's are just ugly basketball. If Howard thought he'd gotten away from the game's biggest ballhog, then he'll quickly learn that harden is not far behind. The fact that harden still plays this selfish brand of basketball is on mcphail. McPhail refuses to reprimand harden, to the team's detriment.

2. utilizing lin as a spot up shooter last season and having him ride the pine behind beverley this preseason? Idiotic.

3. trying to utilize howard as a post scorer? Howard's post game is ugly. He'd be much better as a pnr guy, but this play is surprisingly, rarely used with howard.

4. under-utilizing lin, over-utilizing harden, and holding harden unaccountable on both ends, by allowing him to lolly gag around on d, and by allowing him to eat up the entire shot clock, over dribble and then chuck up an ugly 3.


Mchale was one of the game's legends as a player. McPhail as a coach is embarrassing.

Wow you don't have clue what you are talking about. Did you really just play the race card over two PGs with similar impacts? Do you think you are cute calling the coach, "McPhail" because you really sound like the cliche sports talk radio complete with the misguided criticisms due to a poor understanding of the game.

Asik's better
10-13-2013, 10:07 PM
As far as the rockets overall, they're not sniffing a title with McPhail at the helm. And they certainly have the talent. McPhail doesn't know what the hell he's doing out there:

1. the harden iso's are just ugly basketball. If Howard thought he'd gotten away from the game's biggest ballhog, then he'll quickly learn that harden is not far behind. The fact that harden still plays this selfish brand of basketball is on mcphail. McPhail refuses to reprimand harden, to the team's detriment.

2. utilizing lin as a spot up shooter last season and having him ride the pine behind beverley this preseason? Idiotic.

3. trying to utilize howard as a post scorer? Howard's post game is ugly. He'd be much better as a pnr guy, but this play is surprisingly, rarely used with howard.

4. under-utilizing lin, over-utilizing harden, and holding harden unaccountable on both ends, by allowing him to lolly gag around on d, and by allowing him to eat up the entire shot clock, over dribble and then chuck up an ugly 3.


Mchale was one of the game's legends as a player. McPhail as a coach is embarrassing.

There is so many things wrongs this post that it's not even funny, it's kind of sad.

PacersForLife
10-13-2013, 10:53 PM
I don't think WCF is out of the question.

mightybosstone
10-13-2013, 11:39 PM
As far as the rockets overall, they're not sniffing a title with McPhail at the helm. And they certainly have the talent. McPhail doesn't know what the hell he's doing out there:

1. the harden iso's are just ugly basketball. If Howard thought he'd gotten away from the game's biggest ballhog, then he'll quickly learn that harden is not far behind. The fact that harden still plays this selfish brand of basketball is on mcphail. McPhail refuses to reprimand harden, to the team's detriment.

2. utilizing lin as a spot up shooter last season and having him ride the pine behind beverley this preseason? Idiotic.

3. trying to utilize howard as a post scorer? Howard's post game is ugly. He'd be much better as a pnr guy, but this play is surprisingly, rarely used with howard.

4. under-utilizing lin, over-utilizing harden, and holding harden unaccountable on both ends, by allowing him to lolly gag around on d, and by allowing him to eat up the entire shot clock, over dribble and then chuck up an ugly 3.


Mchale was one of the game's legends as a player. McPhail as a coach is embarrassing.

I don't think you know what the hell you're talking about. Most of this stuff just isn't true, and if you'd watched the preseason games you'd see how well Howard gelled with the offense in a pick and roll system. Also, Harden is hardly the ballhog you're making him seem, Lin is better utilized off the bench than starting next to Harden and you're giving WAY too much credit to Lin and not nearly enough to Harden.

Also, you keep ripping on McHale, but I like a lot of what McHale has done as a coach with the guy's he has. He got the best out of young players last season playing new roles, and I think he worked wonders with Asik last year. His small lineups were a little frustrating last year, but I also think he did the best with the personnel he had.

There are a lot of worse NBA coaches in the league today. I don't see what makes McHale the miserable failure you're making him out to be whatsoever.

mightybosstone
10-13-2013, 11:48 PM
Calm down. It's a preseason game. Based on the hype, you'd think he was a combination of michael jordan, scottie pippen, bill russell, willis reed, jesus christ, mohammed, gandhi, and denzel washington all in one.

Here's the reality once you look beyond the anti-Lin, racist hyperbole: BEVERLEY IS A GOOD DEFENSIVE 2ND STRING ROLE PLAYER. That's it. No more, no less.

Beverley lovers and Lin haters overlap one hundred percent. Cognitive dissonance at it's finest.

Wow. I didn't even see this post, which is completely ridiculous. The whole ignorant racist comment aside (which is ****ing nonsense), what made Lin a substantially better player than Beverley last season? Beverley was a far more efficient scorer, a better perimeter shooter, a better rebounder and absolutely superior on the defensive side of the ball. Lin is the better passer and creator, but the guy also boasts a much higher turnover rate.

I'll give Lin an obvious edge in USG%, but playing in the same back court as James Harden, I'm not sure that's the best trait to have. You can rant all you want about how much better Lin is than Beverley, and on another team, I wouldn't necessarily argue much with you. But on this team and with this personnel, Beverley seems to be a better fit. Lin seems to have improved his perimeter shooting and he certainly made strides in that last season, so he may continue to start next to Harden for the foreseeable future. But if the coaching staff made a change and brought Lin off the bench, they would be totally justified in doing so.

Based on your comments though, I don't think you watched many Rockets games whatsoever last season.

Clippersfan86
10-14-2013, 12:08 AM
Harden is definitely ball DOMINANT but far from a ballhog. Very willing and good passer but uses a bunch of possessions and is the primary ballhandler for the Rockets. Most of that is the fact that neither Lin or Beverley are great playmakers and Harden is.

Tony_Starks
10-14-2013, 12:24 AM
The problem I see is the Asik/ Howard pairing. Offensively Dwight is more comfortable with a stretch 4. It just seems like too clumbsy of a pairing, I would trade Asik or bring him off the bench....

Clippersfan86
10-14-2013, 12:37 AM
The problem I see is the Asik/ Howard pairing. Offensively Dwight is more comfortable with a stretch 4. It just seems like too clumbsy of a pairing, I would trade Asik or bring him off the bench....

Same here but they will trade Asik, make no mistake. Saying they will play them together= a way to raise the value of Asik and making the Rockets not look so desperate to move him. Don't forget they shopped the hell out of him right before Dwight joined and got no takers really, so imagine if they drop his value more by not hyping him up?

pippsux
10-14-2013, 12:46 AM
I believe the team is talented and good enough to be a top 3 seed out west. I expect fun run and gun ball with Howard's stats improving month to month. I think I see a wc finals berth for now.....

JeremiahWing
10-14-2013, 12:46 AM
8-6 seed. First round knockout.

douglas
10-14-2013, 12:47 AM
I expect a lot of wins, but also some loses as well.

ChiSox219
10-14-2013, 01:07 AM
Same here but they will trade Asik, make no mistake. Saying they will play them together= a way to raise the value of Asik and making the Rockets not look so desperate to move him. Don't forget they shopped the hell out of him right before Dwight joined and got no takers really, so imagine if they drop his value more by not hyping him up?

They are in no rush to move Asik now, Morey knows Asik's value and just because they have Dwight doesnt mean the center position is secure given Howard's back injury. The reason Houston tried to move Asik was to sign CP3 and if a trade comes along to acquire a star like that then sure Asik will be traded.

Clippersfan86
10-14-2013, 01:26 AM
They are in no rush to move Asik now, Morey knows Asik's value and just because they have Dwight doesnt mean the center position is secure given Howard's back injury. The reason Houston tried to move Asik was to sign CP3 and if a trade comes along to acquire a star like that then sure Asik will be traded.

That's supposedly what the reason was but there was a breakdown not long ago showing that even if they DID move Asik+Lin they could not have afforded CP3 when you factor in cap holds and a max Howard. Maybe that was incorrect but just adding the quick math of two vet max players, one first time max+cap holds it doesn't add up in my head, unless CP3+Dwight take a couple mill pay cuts each.

If they don't have urgency now to move him they will when they realize they have no floor spacing PF to help Dwight and are starting young PF's with a lack of NBA experience and skills. Griffin, Lee, Zbo, Pau Gasol, Duncan, Davis and many other PF's in the west, let alone league will likely feast on this problem until it's resolved. Dwight isn't going to be consistently be guarding PF's, trust me. If he does he's likely going to fail.

Bruno
10-14-2013, 01:34 AM
53 wins. second round appearance with an equal likelihood of making the WCF or getting booted in the first round depending on playoff positioning. If Houston doesn't secure a top three position out west they could get booted in the first round. If they secure top three positioning and get a favorable match up in the semis they could get to the WCF. I'd be surprised by a finals appearance.

alexander_37
10-14-2013, 01:47 AM
If they got to the WCF this year I would be very happy. They should be ready to contend next year.

Tony_Starks
10-14-2013, 02:00 AM
As presently constructed I don't see them better than Clippers, Spurs, or OKC. And I'm very iffy about them being better than Golden State or Memphis. Without moving Asik, Lin, or both I'm not expecting a whole lot from them....

amos1er
10-14-2013, 02:05 AM
53 wins. second round appearance with an equal likelihood of making the WCF or getting booted in the first round depending on playoff positioning. If Houston doesn't secure a top three position out west they could get booted in the first round. If they secure top three positioning and get a favorable match up in the semis they could get to the WCF. I'd be surprised by a finals appearance.

You have higher hopes for them than I do. I don't even think they will crack 50 wins and most likely out in the first round for sure.

Hope you enjoy D-12 Houston fans. Especially if McHale gives into him and lets him have more touches in the post. Lulz.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
10-14-2013, 02:06 AM
anything but finals would be a dissapointment

amos1er
10-14-2013, 02:07 AM
First round exit most likely.

Yup. Good to see you back btw.

amos1er
10-14-2013, 02:11 AM
anything but finals would be a dissapointment

Finals are a far cry from what to expect from that team. They have one guy in Howard who can't handle pressure and has an out of control ego and another in Harden who is proven to be a complete choke artist on the big stage. They are going to have to overcome a lot of hiccups if they are to progress very far in the playoffs. Give them a few years together before they are expected to make the finals. They will need more time to grow up and gel and likely add a veteran player who can step in and fill the leader/clutch shot maker roll before the finals becomes a real possibility. I am also curious to see if Hakeem and McHale can quell Dwight's ego enough for him to be the positive influence and force they need him to be in order to make that team a winner.

ChiSox219
10-14-2013, 02:29 AM
That's supposedly what the reason was but there was a breakdown not long ago showing that even if they DID move Asik+Lin they could not have afforded CP3 when you factor in cap holds and a max Howard. Maybe that was incorrect but just adding the quick math of two vet max players, one first time max+cap holds it doesn't add up in my head, unless CP3+Dwight take a couple mill pay cuts each.

If they don't have urgency now to move him they will when they realize they have no floor spacing PF to help Dwight and are starting young PF's with a lack of NBA experience and skills. Griffin, Lee, Zbo, Pau Gasol, Duncan, Davis and many other PF's in the west, let alone league will likely feast on this problem until it's resolved. Dwight isn't going to be consistently be guarding PF's, trust me. If he does he's likely going to fail.

You're wrong about the math, wrong about floor spacing, wrong about Dwight failing to guard PF's.

Also both of those young PFs are skilled with major upside and are two more reasons why there is no rush to trade Asik.

JWorthy42
10-14-2013, 02:43 AM
Likely: 2nd Round Exit.
Maximum Potential: WCF.

shep33
10-14-2013, 02:47 AM
They should expect to make it to the Finals, not saying they will, but I'm not buying why people are saying that the WCF is a positive goal considering what people have said about the talent of this team.

Everyone on PSD is saying Harden is the best SG in the NBA and Howard is the best center. So if you have two of the best five players in the entire NBA at their positions... I'm sorry but expectations should be high.

shep33
10-14-2013, 02:50 AM
Without question they should move Asik. They should have moved him the day after picking up Howard. Now if his production drops, so does his value. Teams are already going to low ball them for offers since they have Howard now.

amos1er
10-14-2013, 02:57 AM
They should expect to make it to the Finals, not saying they will, but I'm not buying why people are saying that the WCF is a positive goal considering what people have said about the talent of this team.

Everyone on PSD is saying Harden is the best SG in the NBA and Howard is the best center. So if you have two of the best five players in the entire NBA at their positions... I'm sorry but expectations should be high.

I just don't see it.

amos1er
10-14-2013, 02:58 AM
Without question they should move Asik. They should have moved him the day after picking up Howard. Now if his production drops, so does his value. Teams are already going to low ball them for offers since they have Howard now.

Agreed. Don't know why they didn't act sooner.

jerellh528
10-14-2013, 03:05 AM
48-34 6th in the west, 1st or 2nd round exit.

big_w
10-14-2013, 03:52 AM
Asik is owed $20 million this season and next (5/15). It'll be a challenge to move him with that much money owed him and it might be impossible to move him next season with $15 million on the final year of his deal.

shep33
10-14-2013, 03:59 AM
Asik is owed $20 million this season and next (5/15). It'll be a challenge to move him with that much money owed him and it might be impossible to move him next season with $15 million on the final year of his deal.

Morey is capable of doing it lol. It will be tough to get a quality player that they need back though.

big_w
10-14-2013, 06:25 AM
Asik is certainly a tradeable asset, but getting value in return is going to be a problem.

I think he will be moved eventually; Asik has made it clear that he doesn't want to be a reserve, even on a contending team.

TrueFan420
10-14-2013, 07:17 AM
Asik is owed $20 million this season and next (5/15). It'll be a challenge to move him with that much money owed him and it might be impossible to move him next season with $15 million on the final year of his deal.

He's actually making 8 mil this season idk about the next

TrueFan420
10-14-2013, 07:20 AM
Asik is certainly a tradeable asset, but getting value in return is going to be a problem.

I think he will be moved eventually; Asik has made it clear that he doesn't want to be a reserve, even on a contending team.
Value is relative. If I was starting a team I'd value asik much more than a player like Ryan Anderson but to the rockets Ryan Anderson is the perfect fit next to Dwight and has shown he can play next to him and put up good numbers. While asik is more valuable Ryan Anderson is more valuable to the rockets.

big_w
10-14-2013, 07:25 AM
He's actually making 8 mil this season idk about the next

Wrong. Asik's contract pays him 5/5/15. The cap hit is 8.3 per season.

big_w
10-14-2013, 07:27 AM
Value is relative. If I was starting a team I'd value asik much more than a player like Ryan Anderson but to the rockets Ryan Anderson is the perfect fit next to Dwight and has shown he can play next to him and put up good numbers. While asik is more valuable Ryan Anderson is more valuable to the rockets.

The pelicans already have a center. His name is anthony davis. He's pretty good. They're not going to pair davis with asik for the same reasons that the rockets want to trade asik in the first place.

TrueFan420
10-14-2013, 07:29 AM
Wrong. Asik's contract pays him 5/5/15. The cap hit is 8.3 per season.

I have him in redraft and it say 8.3. How's that work that his contract is 5 but hit is 8?

TrueFan420
10-14-2013, 07:32 AM
The pelicans already have a center. His name is anthony davis. He's pretty good. They're not going to pair davis with asik for the same reasons that the rockets want to trade asik in the first place.

It was just an example wasn't suggest the deal was imminent. That's why a said a player like Anderson (stretch 4). Also as of now Davis is a pf. He's to skinny to play center unless he beefed up over the summer. Also believe he played mostly at of last year but didn't watch them much.

big_w
10-14-2013, 09:47 AM
I have him in redraft and it say 8.3. How's that work that his contract is 5 but hit is 8?

He's paid 5/5/15 over 3 seasons, but the cap hit each season is a third of his total deal (25): 25/3 = 8.3...

big_w
10-14-2013, 09:50 AM
It was just an example wasn't suggest the deal was imminent. That's why a said a player like Anderson (stretch 4). Also as of now Davis is a pf. He's to skinny to play center unless he beefed up over the summer. Also believe he played mostly at of last year but didn't watch them much.

Asik will be moved, but I don't know exactly when. Obviously, it is much more likely he'll be moved this season rather than next because of the structure of his contract: 'poison pill.'

mightybosstone
10-14-2013, 10:18 AM
God... So much that is wrong to address....


The problem I see is the Asik/ Howard pairing. Offensively Dwight is more comfortable with a stretch 4. It just seems like too clumbsy of a pairing, I would trade Asik or bring him off the bench....
First off, I don't know why everyone assumes Asik will be starting. That's not true at all. At most, you might see Dwight and Asik on the floor at the same time for maybe 5-10 minutes a game. But Asik will not start, and the Rockets have two you floor spacing 4s in Terrence Jones and Donatas Motiejunas.


If they don't have urgency now to move him they will when they realize they have no floor spacing PF to help Dwight and are starting young PF's with a lack of NBA experience and skills. Griffin, Lee, Zbo, Pau Gasol, Duncan, Davis and many other PF's in the west, let alone league will likely feast on this problem until it's resolved. Dwight isn't going to be consistently be guarding PF's, trust me. If he does he's likely going to fail.
And yet the Rockets made the playoffs last season with the exact same problem and even younger, more inexperienced PFs on the roster. They also beat a lot of the teams you just named despite that matchup problem. Also, you're giving no credit to Jones or Motiejunas as two first round picks with a lot of upside. Also, Houston plays a lot of small ball, and guys like Parsons and Casspi could both see minutes at PF.

This is not nearly the problem everyone makes it seem. NBA rosters today do not always have traditional players at every position. Just look at the Heat.


You have higher hopes for them than I do. I don't even think they will crack 50 wins and most likely out in the first round for sure. Hope you enjoy D-12 Houston fans. Especially if McHale gives into him and lets him have more touches in the post. Lulz.
The Rockets won 45 games last year with most of their starters playing starting roles for the first time in their careers, with Harden joining the team three days before the start of the season and with no offensive post presence to speak of. You're telling me a more experienced, mature team with a year of basketball under it's belt and a superior center in Dwight can't win five more games? I'll agree to disagree.


Finals are a far cry from what to expect from that team. They have one guy in Howard who can't handle pressure and has an out of control ego and another in Harden who is proven to be a complete choke artist on the big stage. They are going to have to overcome a lot of hiccups if they are to progress very far in the playoffs. Give them a few years together before they are expected to make the finals. They will need more time to grow up and gel and likely add a veteran player who can step in and fill the leader/clutch shot maker roll before the finals becomes a real possibility. I am also curious to see if Hakeem and McHale can quell Dwight's ego enough for him to be the positive influence and force they need him to be in order to make that team a winner.
Wait, isn't Dwight 17th in career postseason WS/48, 11th in career postseason PER and only a few years removed from dragging an overachieving Magic team to the NBA Finals? Or is that another Dwight Howard you're talking about?

Also, for someone who is supposedly a choke artist, Harden led the Rockets in scoring, assists, steals and was second in rebounds and blocks in the series against the Thunder last season. And his scoring efficiency (54.8 TS%) was solid despite some poor shooting numbers from the floor. He also was the reason the Rockets pushed the series to six games after a dominant performance in Game 5.


Asik is owed $20 million this season and next (5/15). It'll be a challenge to move him with that much money owed him and it might be impossible to move him next season with $15 million on the final year of his deal.

Wrong. Asik's contract pays him 5/5/15. The cap hit is 8.3 per season.
You're right about the value of the contract and the poison pill, but wrong about it being difficult to move a player with his contract. Look around the league and $8-10 million for an elite defensive, rebounding center is an absolute bargain. Chandler and Hibbert make $14 million and Noah makes $11 million. Hell, Kendrick Perkins makes freaking $9 million, Splitter just got $10 million, Biedrins makes $9 million, McGee makes $11 million and Washington is paying $28 million combined to Nene and Okafor (yikes).

Asik was second in the league in TRB% and the Rockets were 6.5 points per 100 possessions worse with him off the floor.

ManningToTyree
10-14-2013, 10:28 AM
55 wins, chance at WCF

this. It all depends on chemistry. I do think it might be a bit much to expect a finals birth in their first year together with so much talent out west.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
10-14-2013, 10:52 AM
Finals are a far cry from what to expect from that team. They have one guy in Howard who can't handle pressure and has an out of control ego and another in Harden who is proven to be a complete choke artist on the big stage. They are going to have to overcome a lot of hiccups if they are to progress very far in the playoffs. Give them a few years together before they are expected to make the finals. They will need more time to grow up and gel and likely add a veteran player who can step in and fill the leader/clutch shot maker roll before the finals becomes a real possibility. I am also curious to see if Hakeem and McHale can quell Dwight's ego enough for him to be the positive influence and force they need him to be in order to make that team a winner.

Harden is better than Kobe, and dwight is finally healthy. Plus, they have a bench. they are finals material

#PSD Logic

Tony_Starks
10-14-2013, 10:58 AM
Lets keep in mind that Asik was shopped like crazy before they got Dwight and basically everyone said "no thanks." He's a decent player but not very many outside of H-Town are impressed with him, particularly at that price.

mightybosstone
10-14-2013, 11:56 AM
Harden is better than Kobe, and dwight is finally healthy. Plus, they have a bench. they are finals material

#PSD Logic
I can't tell if you believe this or if you're being sarcastic, but I agree with it, and I think the average NBA fan would as well.

Lets keep in mind that Asik was shopped like crazy before they got Dwight and basically everyone said "no thanks." He's a decent player but not very many outside of H-Town are impressed with him, particularly at that price.
I don't think it was that everyone said "no thanks." I think it was that Morey is trying to maximize Asik's value. He wasn't just going to trade him to the highest bidder for the sake of trading him, because he knows there's a very good chance that players like Aldridge or Love could be on the block at this year's trade deadline and Asik could be the best trading chip they have.

If Asik doesn't get dealt, Morey would be totally fine with him getting 20-25 minutes off the bench and the Rockets constantly having an elite defensive center on the floor. Asik will only get traded for the right pieces.

todu82
10-14-2013, 12:09 PM
The West is extremely wide open this year, any team could win the conference and that includes Houston. I'm expecting them to win 56 games and finish 3rd in the West.

Chronz
10-14-2013, 12:17 PM
. Dwight isn't going to be consistently be guarding PF's, trust me. If he does he's likely going to fail.

Ive seen you say this twice now. How is he going to fail? Last time you said he lacked mobility but everyone laughed at that assertion. Whats the real reason? More importantly, why ignore the TEAM DEFENSIVE aspect?

Chronz
10-14-2013, 12:25 PM
Without question they should move Asik. They should have moved him the day after picking up Howard. Now if his production drops, so does his value. Teams are already going to low ball them for offers since they have Howard now.
I know there are still some dumb GM's out there but I like to think the statistical revolution has educated a great many of them and I dont see how Asik's value drops if you actually know how to measure production. Lets not forget how Morey got him to begin with, with the kind of money that the ignorant deemed a HUGE overpay when in reality its at or below market value for players like him.

Teams aren't likely to forget what hes capable of given how long they've seen him lead defensive units. And why would they have to trade him anyways? Whats so wrong about having 48 minutes of elite rim protection? These Rockets couldn't defend for **** when Asik was off the court, the same problem exists if they get rid of Asik and play without Dwight.

If none of the PF's pan out, then they will move him, there is absolutely no reason to move him without waiting.

shep33
10-14-2013, 12:46 PM
I know there are still some dumb GM's out there but I like to think the statistical revolution has educated a great many of them and I dont see how Asik's value drops if you actually know how to measure production. Lets not forget how Morey got him to begin with, with the kind of money that the ignorant deemed a HUGE overpay when in reality its at or below market value for players like him.

Teams aren't likely to forget what hes capable of given how long they've seen him lead defensive units. And why would they have to trade him anyways? Whats so wrong about having 48 minutes of elite rim protection? These Rockets couldn't defend for **** when Asik was off the court, the same problem exists if they get rid of Asik and play without Dwight.

If none of the PF's pan out, then they will move him, there is absolutely no reason to move him without waiting.


See I just wonder about Asik's attitude more than anything. It seems like he doesn't want to be there having listened to the reports this summer after acquiring Howard, and his first interview at training camp.

I just think that disgruntled players often perform worse and thus their value will eventually drop. Once they got Howard it was almost like he immediately wanted out because he wants to start.

We'll see what happens and how the dynamic between Howard and Asik works out, but if Asik starts to complain and his production drops, we often see players get dealt for less than their actual value.

Chronz
10-14-2013, 01:12 PM
Lets keep in mind that Asik was shopped like crazy before they got Dwight and basically everyone said "no thanks." He's a decent player but not very many outside of H-Town are impressed with him, particularly at that price.
I dont think any of this is true. Got any links to educate me?

Chronz
10-14-2013, 01:20 PM
See I just wonder about Asik's attitude more than anything. It seems like he doesn't want to be there having listened to the reports this summer after acquiring Howard, and his first interview at training camp.

I just think that disgruntled players often perform worse and thus their value will eventually drop. Once they got Howard it was almost like he immediately wanted out because he wants to start.

We'll see what happens and how the dynamic between Howard and Asik works out, but if Asik starts to complain and his production drops, we often see players get dealt for less than their actual value.
Maybe, I just think Morey has a better idea of his temperament than anyone else. And that its best to shop him once buyers remorse kicks in for people who spent their offseason money futily. That allows you time to reassess what your actual needs might be.

Tony_Starks
10-14-2013, 01:31 PM
I dont think any of this is true. Got any links to educate me?

You can google it. I just remember reading on hoopshype this summer some gm quotes on how they were shopping him and Lin and got little to no interest. I remember in particular they wanted Anderson and NO said no dice.

Why would that surprise you though? I'm sure they weren't asking for scrubs in return. The asking price was probably too high and teams told them to take a hike.

mightybosstone
10-14-2013, 02:05 PM
You can google it. I just remember reading on hoopshype this summer some gm quotes on how they were shopping him and Lin and got little to no interest. I remember in particular they wanted Anderson and NO said no dice.

Why would that surprise you though? I'm sure they weren't asking for scrubs in return. The asking price was probably too high and teams told them to take a hike.

New Orleans also already has Davis, who is likely to be the future center of the franchise. And I remember reading articles and tweets about how Morey was shopping Asik and Lin, as well. But it wasn't Asik teams had issues with, it was Lin. Nobody wants to take on Lin's contract with two years left on it, but teams were certainly interested in Asik.

If Morey finds a deal for Asik that makes the team better and fits his plans moving forward, he'll make that deal. But in the meantime, he's not going to give up 48 minutes of elite post defense and rebounding for pennies on the dollar.

Chronz
10-14-2013, 02:15 PM
I did some googling and found this from Asik:

“I think (Howard) is the best center in the league, and that’s a great addition for the Houston Rockets. So we’ll see how it goes, starting tomorrow.
“I’m a basketball player. I’ll do whatever the coaches say. I’m just going to be ready for the training camp, be ready (for) changes. … Whatever I can do, we’ll see. Defensively it will be really good — two good rim protectors. We have to figure out how to play first. This is basketball. It’s just a business. There’s no emotions in it. You just have to be ready (for) changes. That’s all I’m thinking about right now.”

Doesn't sound like a whiny unprofessional to me.



You can google it. I just remember reading on hoopshype this summer some gm quotes on how they were shopping him and Lin and got little to no interest. I remember in particular they wanted Anderson and NO said no dice.

Why would that surprise you though? I'm sure they weren't asking for scrubs in return. The asking price was probably too high and teams told them to take a hike.
Doesnt sound shopped like crazy to me. I remember teams trying to take advantage of Houston and them saying no thx tho. I think they know the Anderson trade will always be there, a center like Asik holds much more value to a team like the Pelicans than the guy who plays the same position as their franchise cornerstone.

What your saying just doesn't add up to me.

5ass
10-14-2013, 02:57 PM
What makes people think wont work defensively when splitter and duncan just made the finals and wrre one of the best defensive teams in the league.

tr3ymill3r
10-14-2013, 03:07 PM
Wcf

Tony_Starks
10-14-2013, 03:13 PM
What makes people think wont work defensively when splitter and duncan just made the finals and wrre one of the best defensive teams in the league.

Splitter and Duncan are more versatile offensively. They can both post and shoot the mid range J. Just like Z-Bo and Gasol.....

5ass
10-14-2013, 03:24 PM
Splitter and Duncan are more versatile offensively. They can both post and shoot the mid range J. Just like Z-Bo and Gasol.....

Did u miss the part where i said "defensively" or just ignore it?

5ass
10-14-2013, 03:26 PM
Im just saying asik and howatds defense can offset their negatives offensively.

5ass
10-14-2013, 03:28 PM
Some will say teams will just go small against them, but their paint defense will surely suffer and harden and howard will have their way.

beasted86
10-14-2013, 03:28 PM
Im just saying asik and howatds defense can offset their negatives offensively.

I don't get why people are saying that. I wouldn't want either of them defending stretch 4s to be honest. Can see a couple nights they will be light up by Love, Dirk, David Lee, Ryan Anderson, etc.. and I haven't even gotten out of the conference.

5ass
10-14-2013, 03:38 PM
I don't get why people are saying that. I wouldn't want either of them defending stretch 4s to be honest. Can see a couple nights they will be light up by Love, Dirk, David Lee, Ryan Anderson, etc.. and I haven't even gotten out of the conference.

I disagree, but we'll see. Asik's quickness is so underrated. Also lets not forget the offensive rebounds and the little things he'll do. Like set good screens, move well defensively, boxing out very well, ect.

beasted86
10-14-2013, 03:44 PM
Well, I am yet to see two big impose their will. It is usually the smaller teams that are forcing big teams to go small and match up, not the other way around. Asik and Howard are both fast for Centers, but slow for PFs, and their natural mindset is to sink down low. It will be a hard habit to break.

Tony_Starks
10-14-2013, 03:46 PM
I wouldn't want to see Dwight consistently defending 4's. If you got the Lamarcus Alrdidge, K Loves of the world bringing him out on the perimeter it defeats the purpose of him defending the paint. And I damn sure don't want Asik chasing guys out there.....

NYKnickFanatic
10-14-2013, 03:51 PM
Apparently they have a top 5 player in Harden, and if Dwight goes back to his Orlando days he's a top 3 player as well. My expectations would be at least the Finals.

That's what I'm thinking.

shep33
10-14-2013, 03:54 PM
Maybe, I just think Morey has a better idea of his temperament than anyone else. And that its best to shop him once buyers remorse kicks in for people who spent their offseason money futily. That allows you time to reassess what your actual needs might be.

That's true. If anyone is capable of getting top value back for Asik, it's Morey.


We'll see what happens. Can't wait for the season to start!

Chronz
10-14-2013, 05:17 PM
Splitter and Duncan are more versatile offensively. They can both post and shoot the mid range J. Just like Z-Bo and Gasol.....
Splitter cant shoot man.... Im not even sure why you say he can post
They work because Pop took the time to develop their chemistry together. For the longest time he kept them off the court together, not sure why but I wont question why he felt the need to bring their chemistry along slowly.
Oh and hes just talking about defense, Splitter and Duncan definitely fit better, mostly because of Duncan I think.

Chronz
10-14-2013, 05:21 PM
I don't get why people are saying that. I wouldn't want either of them defending stretch 4s to be honest. Can see a couple nights they will be light up by Love, Dirk, David Lee, Ryan Anderson, etc.. and I haven't even gotten out of the conference.
Why do they get lit up again? Do people really think Dwight is no longer a DPOY caliber big? I can see some saying hes declined but surely not to the point where hes a liability now.


I wouldn't want to see Dwight consistently defending 4's. If you got the Lamarcus Alrdidge, K Loves of the world bringing him out on the perimeter it defeats the purpose of him defending the paint. And I damn sure don't want Asik chasing guys out there.....
Thats the luxury the Rockets have. They can stick Dwight on 4's and let Asik anchor the paint. Its not like pulling out a dominant defender leaves the paint open, nope they have Asik there too. Its offense thats the problem.

b@llhog24
10-14-2013, 05:28 PM
I wouldn't want to see Dwight consistently defending 4's. If you got the Lamarcus Alrdidge, K Loves of the world bringing him out on the perimeter it defeats the purpose of him defending the paint. And I damn sure don't want Asik chasing guys out there.....

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=aldrila01&p2=howardw01

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=loveke01&p2=howardw01

b@llhog24
10-14-2013, 05:36 PM
Splitter cant shoot man.... Im not even sure why you say he can post
They work because Pop took the time to develop their chemistry together. For the longest time he kept them off the court together, not sure why but I wont question why he felt the need to bring their chemistry along slowly.
Oh and hes just talking about defense, Splitter and Duncan definitely fit better, mostly because of Duncan I think.

Lol seeing that had my sides hurting. Maybe it's because he's seen as a skilled big and has soft touch around the basket people just think that it translates to him being able to shoot well. From 10-15 feet Splitter averages 0.1 shots ATTEMPTED and from 16-23 he average 0.2 attempts. Never mind for the fact that neither of them register higher than 0.0 made. But hey "Tiago can shoot and my eyes tell me so."


Why do they get lit up again? Do people really think Dwight is no longer a DPOY caliber big? I can see some saying hes declined but surely not to the point where hes a liability now.


Thats the luxury the Rockets have. They can stick Dwight on 4's and let Asik anchor the paint. Its not like pulling out a dominant defender leaves the paint open, nope they have Asik there too. Its offense thats the problem.

This is what I'm thinking. Their biggest issue is the lack of spacing between the two bigs.

b@llhog24
10-14-2013, 05:38 PM
Just realized I got the years mixed up. But still the story stays the same.

Chronz
10-14-2013, 05:56 PM
Just realized I got the years mixed up. But still the story stays the same.

Can you name to me these PF's better equipped to defend elite PF's better than Dwight. Lemme guess.... the fleet footed Anthony Davis is a better defender at the 4, nvm the fact that he was bodied up and put in the torture chamber every time he was put on the blocks. Ryan Anderson can pull you out, but hes not blowing by Dwight, neither is the slow Kevin Love/Dirk. Dwight can hang with any stretch PF athletically. Those that play closer to the paint are entering his domain. Who exactly is going to give Dwight problems that any other PF doesn't have the same problems against?

Dwight slow for a PF??? Since when is that the sole barometer for defensive skill anyways?

Tony_Starks
10-14-2013, 06:03 PM
Why do they get lit up again? Do people really think Dwight is no longer a DPOY caliber big? I can see some saying hes declined but surely not to the point where hes a liability now.


Thats the luxury the Rockets have. They can stick Dwight on 4's and let Asik anchor the paint. Its not like pulling out a dominant defender leaves the paint open, nope they have Asik there too. Its offense thats the problem.

I totally get that they have another anchor in Asik but my thing is if I have a guy who's key attribute is patrolling the paint I want him in key position to do just that.

b@llhog24
10-14-2013, 06:04 PM
Can you name to me these PF's better equipped to defend elite PF's better than Dwight. Lemme guess.... the fleet footed Anthony Davis is a better defender at the 4, nvm the fact that he was bodied up and put in the torture chamber every time he was put on the blocks. Ryan Anderson can pull you out, but hes not blowing by Dwight, neither is the slow Kevin Love/Dirk. Dwight can hang with any stretch PF athletically. Those that play closer to the paint are entering his domain. Who exactly is going to give Dwight problems that any other PF doesn't have the same problems against?

Dwight slow for a PF??? Since when is that the sole barometer for defensive skill anyways?

Agree with everything you've said here.

b@llhog24
10-14-2013, 06:04 PM
I totally get that they have another anchor in Asik but my thing is if I have a guy who's key attribute is patrolling the paint I want him in key position to do just that.

Why? Just for ***** and giggles?

L8kers4life
10-14-2013, 06:25 PM
Can you name to me these PF's better equipped to defend elite PF's better than Dwight. Lemme guess.... the fleet footed Anthony Davis is a better defender at the 4, nvm the fact that he was bodied up and put in the torture chamber every time he was put on the blocks. Ryan Anderson can pull you out, but hes not blowing by Dwight, neither is the slow Kevin Love/Dirk. Dwight can hang with any stretch PF athletically. Those that play closer to the paint are entering his domain. Who exactly is going to give Dwight problems that any other PF doesn't have the same problems against?

Dwight slow for a PF??? Since when is that the sole barometer for defensive skill anyways?

I agree with you that Dwight is not too slow to guard PF's in this league, Dwight is plenty athletic enough to hang with any PF's. But the problem with Dwight is not whether or not he can keep up with PF's, it's how will he stay out of foul trouble, he has a hard enough time staying out of foul trouble against Center's so he will definitely struggle with power forwards. Small sample size, but take a look at Dwight's last 4 games played, in which he is fully healthy, his last 2 with the lakers and his first 2 pre season games with the rockets, he has either fouled out or got 5 fouls all in under 30 minutes of work.

b@llhog24
10-14-2013, 06:28 PM
I agree with you that Dwight is not too slow to guard PF's in this league, Dwight is plenty athletic enough to hang with any PF's. But the problem with Dwight is not whether or not he can keep up with PF's, it's how will he stay out of foul trouble, he has a hard enough time staying out of foul trouble against Center's so he will definitely struggle with power forwards. Small sample size, but take a look at Dwight's last 4 games played, in which he is fully healthy, his last 2 with the lakers and his first 2 pre season games with the rockets, he has either fouled out or got 5 fouls all in under 30 minutes of work.

This is where you went wrong.

L8kers4life
10-14-2013, 06:34 PM
Agree with everything you've said here.

Dwight is susceptible to the pump fake, quicker power forward's will get him in foul trouble quickly. Dwight already fouls at a very high rate and against quicker players, this will get worse, it will not be as easy as you make it out to be. Lamarcus, Klove, Melo, Bron (when they play 4) david lee, Dirk, basically any big who shoots a lot of jump shots will pose a problem. Dwight will be fine, but he will definitely get in some foul trouble some nights. But Dwight should abuse any power forward that tries to guard him!

Chronz
10-14-2013, 06:37 PM
I agree with you that Dwight is not too slow to guard PF's in this league, Dwight is plenty athletic enough to hang with any PF's. But the problem with Dwight is not whether or not he can keep up with PF's, it's how will he stay out of foul trouble, he has a hard enough time staying out of foul trouble against Center's so he will definitely struggle with power forwards. Small sample size, but take a look at Dwight's last 4 games played, in which he is fully healthy, his last 2 with the lakers and his first 2 pre season games with the rockets, he has either fouled out or got 5 fouls all in under 30 minutes of work.

Thats another good reason to have 2 Centers capable of anchoring your defense. If 1 gets into foul trouble, you're not ****ed.

L8kers4life
10-14-2013, 06:37 PM
This is where you went wrong.

Your funny, So playoffs dont matter, take a look at his foul rate, I provided a very small sample size, take a look at his foul rate for the whole season, it's one of the worst in the league, Dwight is constantly in foul trouble. Attack another point, aside from this, the only thing you pointed to was that sentence, what about everything else I wrote?

L8kers4life
10-14-2013, 06:40 PM
Thats another good reason to have 2 Centers capable of anchoring your defense. If 1 gets into foul trouble, you're not ****ed.

To that point your 100% correct, I really don't see there problem being so much on defense, I see the bigger problem being spacing and shot selection, and when Dwight doesnt get his looks, he starts to force than teams start fouling, this year they will hack him and Asik, so Harden and Parsons will have to keep the pressure off them. I think the Rockets finish between 2 and 4 in the west, but they will struggle in the playoffs.

SPURSFAN1
10-14-2013, 07:25 PM
The rockets will beat any team in the playoffs barring the spurs. That's how good they will be. It's just one of those match-ups the rockets don't want to see.

beasted86
10-14-2013, 07:33 PM
Why do they get lit up again? Do people really think Dwight is no longer a DPOY caliber big? I can see some saying hes declined but surely not to the point where hes a liability now.


Him being a DPOY candidate and not being able to play out of his position are mutually exclusive. He's clearly the best defender of Centers in the league, and has the most defensive impact of any Center in the league. This doesn't mean he has the discipline or lateral quickness to guard the elite PFs and not fail due to habits he has developed as a Center.

When he's used in pick and roll defense, he is not used to hedging which is often asked of PFs, instead he's used to sinking under. He will get flambeed by Dirk, Love, Anderson, Lee, Bosh, etc... continuing that habit while trying to defend these PFs. He's also used to sinking into the lane on iso drives. You spot any one of these guys in the corner 3 area, and have your guard iso drive in a 1-4 spread offense, I guarantee you will get Howard to sink in more often than he stays home. Howard is also a very good defender, but he likes to reach. It has been a big problem that has kept with him and why he often still gets in foul trouble. If you get a stretch four who knows how to drive to the basket and use their face up game, I don't know how Howard will respond to be honest. He has never had a shot blocker that he was willing to let himself fall back on, so its totally new territory and he or Asik will have to relearn how to play defense.

Here check out this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IT__LN7Sj7Q

This is from a couple years ago, but see how much quicker and easily Bosh is able to jab step him and torch him with the midrange and eventually leads to a foul out trying to defend him off the drive. Howard would have to relearn his position and how much cushion he is going to give opponents and rely on the help. He will also have to stop reaching, because a big guy like Howard can easily push these smaller 4s like Bosh or Dirk who know how to sell the contact, and they will live on the FT line. I also just don't think his lateral quickness is as good as many of you think it is. Asik is surely slower though, so he would almost have to play Center.

Clippersfan86
10-14-2013, 07:54 PM
Can't wait to say I told you so on the Dwight/Asik pairing. Although Morey is obviously using this for leverage and I expect Asik traded ASAP anyways.

5ass
10-14-2013, 08:00 PM
The rockets will beat any team in the playoffs barring the spurs. That's how good they will be. It's just one of those match-ups the rockets don't want to see.
Do u care to explain why they dont match up well with the spurs.

Hawkeye15
10-14-2013, 08:03 PM
some bitter Laker fans are really underestimating what a healthy Dwight can offer. I mean, after NERVE damage in his back, and shoulder surgery, he barely missed a game last year.

Hawkeye15
10-14-2013, 08:04 PM
Can you name to me these PF's better equipped to defend elite PF's better than Dwight. Lemme guess.... the fleet footed Anthony Davis is a better defender at the 4, nvm the fact that he was bodied up and put in the torture chamber every time he was put on the blocks. Ryan Anderson can pull you out, but hes not blowing by Dwight, neither is the slow Kevin Love/Dirk. Dwight can hang with any stretch PF athletically. Those that play closer to the paint are entering his domain. Who exactly is going to give Dwight problems that any other PF doesn't have the same problems against?

Dwight slow for a PF??? Since when is that the sole barometer for defensive skill anyways?

you are also asking Dwight to leave the paint to defend for this first time in his career on a possession basis. Guys like Love/Dirk will upfake him straight into foul trouble that far from the rim imo.

Clippersfan86
10-14-2013, 08:04 PM
Chronz if he's such a capable PF defender why does he guard centers and let his PF's guard the PF's of this league? This isnt 1st and 2nd year 240 pound Dwight. This is a 280 pound, 29 year old, declining, post back surgery Dwight. He doesn't guard PF's hardly ever, so confidence in him doing so seems misguided. Look at 82 games or something, Im willing to bet he's rarely matched up at PF. He's extremely quick and athletic for a center, not for a PF. Straight line speed and strength won't help him with lateral quickness and desire to defend the perimeter.

Clippersfan86
10-14-2013, 08:07 PM
you are also asking Dwight to leave the paint to defend for this first time in his career on a possession basis. Guys like Love/Dirk will upfake him straight into foul trouble that far from the rim imo.

This. Just because he's the best paint defender doesn't mean he's better than the PF's defensively OUTSIDE the paint. People forget how lazy this guy is. Last guy up the floor everytime yet you expect him to chase PF's 22 feet out? Nope.

L8kers4life
10-14-2013, 08:11 PM
This. Just because he's the best paint defender doesn't mean he's better than the PF's defensively OUTSIDE the paint. People forget how lazy this guy is. Last guy up the floor everytime yet you expect him to chase PF's 22 feet out? Nope.

Great Post!

L8kers4life
10-14-2013, 08:11 PM
Him being a DPOY candidate and not being able to play out of his position are mutually exclusive. He's clearly the best defender of Centers in the league, and has the most defensive impact of any Center in the league. This doesn't mean he has the discipline or lateral quickness to guard the elite PFs and not fail due to habits he has developed as a Center.

When he's used in pick and roll defense, he is not used to hedging which is often asked of PFs, instead he's used to sinking under. He will get flambeed by Dirk, Love, Anderson, Lee, Bosh, etc... continuing that habit while trying to defend these PFs. He's also used to sinking into the lane on iso drives. You spot any one of these guys in the corner 3 area, and have your guard iso drive in a 1-4 spread offense, I guarantee you will get Howard to sink in more often than he stays home. Howard is also a very good defender, but he likes to reach. It has been a big problem that has kept with him and why he often still gets in foul trouble. If you get a stretch four who knows how to drive to the basket and use their face up game, I don't know how Howard will respond to be honest. He has never had a shot blocker that he was willing to let himself fall back on, so its totally new territory and he or Asik will have to relearn how to play defense.

Here check out this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IT__LN7Sj7Q

This is from a couple years ago, but see how much quicker and easily Bosh is able to jab step him and torch him with the midrange and eventually leads to a foul out trying to defend him off the drive. Howard would have to relearn his position and how much cushion he is going to give opponents and rely on the help. He will also have to stop reaching, because a big guy like Howard can easily push these smaller 4s like Bosh or Dirk who know how to sell the contact, and they will live on the FT line. I also just don't think his lateral quickness is as good as many of you think it is. Asik is surely slower though, so he would almost have to play Center.

Another excellent post!

Clippersfan86
10-14-2013, 08:21 PM
Beasted is a guy I normally don't agree 100 percent with but that post is on point.

SPURSFAN1
10-14-2013, 08:24 PM
Do u care to explain why they dont match up well with the spurs.

The Spurs are one of the only few teams that have experience and success playing against great centers. We have great game plans to shutting down bigs. Just last year vs the grizz and the lakers. Perimeter is our biggest weakness. The thunder with multiple shooters or warriors before they fell apart have the most success vs us. The heat got hot on the 3point line in game 7. This year kawhi and danny will play better in the perimeter so we will get better. Bigs don't give us many fits. The rockets can take advantage of weak front courts but not the spurs.

5ass
10-14-2013, 08:43 PM
The Spurs are one of the only few teams that have experience and success playing against great centers. We have great game plans to shutting down bigs. Just last year vs the grizz and the lakers. Perimeter is our biggest weakness. The thunder with multiple shooters or warriors before they fell apart have the most success vs us. The heat got hot on the 3point line in game 7. This year kawhi and danny will play better in the perimeter so we will get better. Bigs don't give us many fits. The rockets can take advantage of weak front courts but not the spurs.

On the other hand you have howard and asik playing elite D on splitter and duncan. You also get incredible paint defense causing problems for parker. I dont see it being a particularly bad match up at all.

5ass
10-14-2013, 08:46 PM
On the other hand you have howard and asik playing elite D on splitter and duncan. You also get incredible paint defense causing problems for parker. I dont see it being a particularly bad match up at all.

I think the team that could cause them most trouble is golden state. And okc if perkins can play D on howard like he used to ofcourse.

ChiSox219
10-14-2013, 08:55 PM
During the 5-10 minutes per game where Dwight might have to guard PFs you guys think that will be the downfall of the Rockets? Wouldn't the Rockets just go zone if that the problem was really that bad? The Bulls play elite D with Boozer walking around in cement 30 minutes a night. Beasted post a video of Bosh hitting two jumpers on Dwight, like the 30 points Bosh dropped on Rashard Lewis in the paint is a better alternative.

astrosmaniac
10-14-2013, 09:05 PM
I wouldn't want to see Dwight consistently defending 4's. If you got the Lamarcus Alrdidge, K Loves of the world bringing him out on the perimeter it defeats the purpose of him defending the paint. And I damn sure don't want Asik chasing guys out there.....

Asik did a damn good job of it last year. He always matched up VS the best offensive big, with maybe the exception of memphis (depends on who you consider the better offensive player with gasol and z-bo)

beasted86
10-14-2013, 09:16 PM
During the 5-10 minutes per game where Dwight might have to guard PFs you guys think that will be the downfall of the Rockets? Wouldn't the Rockets just go zone if that the problem was really that bad? The Bulls play elite D with Boozer walking around in cement 30 minutes a night. Beasted post a video of Bosh hitting two jumpers on Dwight, like the 30 points Bosh dropped on Rashard Lewis in the paint is a better alternative.

1st things first, we are going off the assumption that Asik is the starter next to Howard, or sees significant minutes there. You might want to look at their roster and tell me who is supposed to be the starting PF. I'm not sold on Terrence Jones, Asik, or anyone they could possibly use as a starter.

2nd, a zone typically exposes a team's perimeter 3PT defense. I think you have this backwards.

3rd, Boozer has possibly the two best help defenders opposite him than any other weak defensive PF.

4th, the video was just an illustration, ignore the title or main subject matter. There were 3 plays shown with Bosh on Howard. Two times he lit him up for a barely contested J, and the final play he drove right by Howard, causing him to reach in and foul out. The point was showing Howard isn't used to defending guys that far from the basket. He would have to relearn how to defend and break habits over a long time of playing.

Hawkeye15
10-14-2013, 09:31 PM
During the 5-10 minutes per game where Dwight might have to guard PFs you guys think that will be the downfall of the Rockets? Wouldn't the Rockets just go zone if that the problem was really that bad? The Bulls play elite D with Boozer walking around in cement 30 minutes a night. Beasted post a video of Bosh hitting two jumpers on Dwight, like the 30 points Bosh dropped on Rashard Lewis in the paint is a better alternative.

oh absolutely not. That wasn't my point.

shep33
10-14-2013, 09:34 PM
you are also asking Dwight to leave the paint to defend for this first time in his career on a possession basis. Guys like Love/Dirk will upfake him straight into foul trouble that far from the rim imo.

Yup

ChiSox219
10-14-2013, 09:40 PM
Asik did a damn good job of it last year. He always matched up VS the best offensive big, with maybe the exception of memphis (depends on who you consider the better offensive player with gasol and z-bo)

You see this with the T'Wolves sometimes too, they would put Pekovic on someone like Blake Griffin and it does work.


1st things first, we are going off the assumption that Asik is the starter next to Howard, or sees significant minutes there. You might want to look at their roster and tell me who is supposed to be the starting PF. I'm not sold on Terrence Jones, Asik, or anyone they could possibly use as a starter.

That's your assumption, the Rockets are going to do what works best. If Dwight/Asik is a problem for them, that's a lineup they only have to play a few minutes a night to get both guys adequate minutes. As far as looking at the Rockets roster, I am very familiar with the team and followed the progression of Jones and Motiejunas closely from the D-League last year, the NBA minutes they got once 2Pat and Morris were traded, as well as the summer league. They are both great prospects and I think the Rockets would be fine starting either one or bringing them off the bench, whatever works.



2nd, a zone typically exposes a team's perimeter 3PT defense. I think you have this backwards.

3-2



3rd, Boozer has possibly the two best help defenders opposite him than any other weak defensive PF.

Asik is even better than what Boozer has in Noah and Taj.



4th, the video was just an illustration, ignore the title or main subject matter. There were 3 plays shown with Bosh on Howard. Two times he lit him up for a barely contested J, and the final play he drove right by Howard, causing him to reach in and foul out. The point was showing Howard isn't used to defending guys that far from the basket. He would have to relearn how to defend and break habits over a long time of playing.

Ok but you live with long 2s over layups and dunks. If the Rockets biggest problem is PFs shooting 20 footers they are in really good shape.

TheMightyHumph
10-14-2013, 10:00 PM
Certainly a playoff team, but this team could be a Title contender, or a team that just could implode

Chronz
10-14-2013, 10:01 PM
Can't wait to say I told you so on the Dwight/Asik pairing. Although Morey is obviously using this for leverage and I expect Asik traded ASAP anyways.

So your argument is that Dwight Howard will defend PF's so much worse that the team defense will be worse with him + Asik than it was with Asik+Morris/Patterson?

LMFAO .. I cant wait

Chronz
10-14-2013, 10:06 PM
Him being a DPOY candidate and not being able to play out of his position are mutually exclusive. He's clearly the best defender of Centers in the league, and has the most defensive impact of any Center in the league. This doesn't mean he has the discipline or lateral quickness to guard the elite PFs and not fail due to habits he has developed as a Center.
So when Ben Wallace went between playing C and PF throughout his career, there was such a drastic change that he went from DPOY caliber to liability? When Hakeem went from PF to full fledged C, he changed dramatically? Sorry I dont buy the theory that Dwight cant adapt to the point where it becomes a weakness in his teams defense.


When he's used in pick and roll defense, he is not used to hedging which is often asked of PFs, instead he's used to sinking under. He will get flambeed by Dirk, Love, Anderson, Lee, Bosh, etc...
Not buying it. Hes locked down on those players before, if Raph was still posting he would bring up the numerous times hes locked those very same players down.


continuing that habit while trying to defend these PFs. He's also used to sinking into the lane on iso drives. You spot any one of these guys in the corner 3 area, and have your guard iso drive in a 1-4 spread offense, I guarantee you will get Howard to sink in more often than he stays home. Howard is also a very good defender, but he likes to reach. It has been a big problem that has kept with him and why he often still gets in foul trouble. If you get a stretch four who knows how to drive to the basket and use their face up game, I don't know how Howard will respond to be honest. He has never had a shot blocker that he was willing to let himself fall back on, so its totally new territory and he or Asik will have to relearn how to play defense.
Its easy to trust your teammate when hes an equally capable defender. Dwight isn't entirely new to the concept either, he wasn't raised a center, he started off a PF and grew into the C position. Either way, of all the names you mentioned, NONE of them will defend PF's and still provide superb help defense the way Dwight can. So how is it a problem when hes still a better defensive option than ALL the guys you mentioned?



Here check out this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IT__LN7Sj7Q
No THX, everyone knows Bosh has been Dwights ***** for as long as anyone can remember.

Chronz
10-14-2013, 10:09 PM
you are also asking Dwight to leave the paint to defend for this first time in his career on a possession basis. Guys like Love/Dirk will upfake him straight into foul trouble that far from the rim imo.
I've already seen him lock Dirk down(Raph made a big deal about it too), Ill look into his history with Love but look at the names you guys are mentioning. You dont seriously expect me to believe those guys are better defenders at ANY position than Dwight is..... right?

LMFAO

The fact that its not his natural position is not being contested, its the fact that he will somehow turn into a liability because hes matched up against 4's. NOBODY has ever gone from DPOY caliber to liability the likes of which a pathetic defender like Love is somehow held in higher regard.

Chronz
10-14-2013, 10:10 PM
Yup

LOL. So Dwight never played PF now?

Htownballa1622
10-14-2013, 10:13 PM
:clap:

:nod:

I can not wait for this season. I love seeing people eat their words.

Chronz
10-14-2013, 10:18 PM
Chronz if he's such a capable PF defender why does he guard centers and let his PF's guard the PF's of this league?
I dont know what you're talking about, his defensive assignment has always been based on what the team needs most. Speaking in absolutes is rarely a smart tactic


This isnt 1st and 2nd year 240 pound Dwight. This is a 280 pound, 29 year old, declining, post back surgery Dwight.
Rookie Dwight wasn't a very good defender so Im not seeing the point here. And his agility/quickness improved with every month. Why are you acting like you have to go so far back to remember Dwight being cat quick?


He doesn't guard PF's hardly ever, so confidence in him doing so seems misguided.
Based on what?


Look at 82 games or something, Im willing to bet he's rarely matched up at PF.
LMFAO. I guess you dont know how they log positional data. What else is new...


He's extremely quick and athletic for a center, not for a PF. Straight line speed and strength won't help him with lateral quickness and desire to defend the perimeter.
Outta shear curiosity can you name the guys better equipped for the job. Is Love or Blake suppose to defend both individually and at a team level at a higher than a DPOY caliber big? LMFAO. If the Rockets have a problem with Dwight at the 4, so does practically every team in the league. Look at how LeMarcus has abused Blake in the past, thats someone who Dwight has routinely owned.

Chronz
10-14-2013, 10:23 PM
You see this with the T'Wolves sometimes too, they would put Pekovic on someone like Blake Griffin and it does work.
F Yeah it did, I love this example because it puts Hawkeye in a vice grip, Love (the natural PF) stood no chance at defending Blake, but Pek took away his strengths (his strength) and made it uncomfortable for him. Sadly, people want to live in a world of absolutes. Where guys are considered better defenders than Dwight so long as they have a certain quickness to them. Sad. From DPOY to liability, first time its ever happened, and its all because Dwights not athletic enough.... LMFAO

FOBolous
10-14-2013, 10:25 PM
I thought Dwight was a PF when he first entered the league?

Chronz
10-14-2013, 10:29 PM
I thought Dwight was a PF when he first entered the league?
Tony Battie and Kelvin Kato never existed bro. Hes also a better defender as a rookie than he is today. #PSDHATE

Hawkeye15
10-14-2013, 10:43 PM
I've already seen him lock Dirk down(Raph made a big deal about it too), Ill look into his history with Love but look at the names you guys are mentioning. You dont seriously expect me to believe those guys are better defenders at ANY position than Dwight is..... right?

LMFAO

The fact that its not his natural position is not being contested, its the fact that he will somehow turn into a liability because hes matched up against 4's. NOBODY has ever gone from DPOY caliber to liability the likes of which a pathetic defender like Love is somehow held in higher regard.

hey now. I am not expecting anything. What I am saying is, at his age, and after his back needed to be fused together, I question his ability to deal with a stretch 4. I am not calling him a liability, I am simply saying I don't believe, until proven otherwise, that Dwight guarding the best stretch 4's in the game will be a positive (we are talking about a VERY short list). That being said, how many minutes are we actually talking about?

Lets be honest. Asik's days in Houston are limited.

Hawkeye15
10-14-2013, 10:45 PM
F Yeah it did, I love this example because it puts Hawkeye in a vice grip, Love (the natural PF) stood no chance at defending Blake, but Pek took away his strengths (his strength) and made it uncomfortable for him. Sadly, people want to live in a world of absolutes. Where guys are considered better defenders than Dwight so long as they have a certain quickness to them. Sad. From DPOY to liability, first time its ever happened, and its all because Dwights not athletic enough.... LMFAO

It puts me in a vice grip? Blake's at the rim dominance was taken away by a player whose turd benches more. How is that a vice grip?

beasted86
10-14-2013, 11:03 PM
That's your assumption, the Rockets are going to do what works best. If Dwight/Asik is a problem for them, that's a lineup they only have to play a few minutes a night to get both guys adequate minutes. As far as looking at the Rockets roster, I am very familiar with the team and followed the progression of Jones and Motiejunas closely from the D-League last year, the NBA minutes they got once 2Pat and Morris were traded, as well as the summer league. They are both great prospects and I think the Rockets would be fine starting either one or bringing them off the bench, whatever works.
Well if you think either are ready to be a starting PF on a championship team... what can I say? I disagree.

3-2
Any zone is busted by motion, good outside shooting and passing. A zone is used to keep guys out of the lane.

Asik is even better than what Boozer has in Noah and Taj.
I clearly mean Noah and Deng. At the Center and SF he has two guys beside him that will cover most of his mistakes, and offer the versatility to take on the tougher scorer, and let Boozer defend the easier player to guard.



Ok but you live with long 2s over layups and dunks. If the Rockets biggest problem is PFs shooting 20 footers they are in really good shape.
Well when you have Bosh hitting 53% of his jumpers 16-23 feet, you will surely not live long leaving him open.

Chronz
10-14-2013, 11:06 PM
It puts me in a vice grip? Blake's at the rim dominance was taken away by a player whose turd benches more. How is that a vice grip?

Because you now must admit that a VERY slow footed center was able to defend the most athletic PF in the NBA. The very subject being contested by you people. Im not saying it will work all the time, but if a defensive sieve like Pek and Love can do that to Blake(likely the most productive all around 4 in the game), Im sure Dwight+Asik can do better.

Chronz
10-14-2013, 11:08 PM
Well when you have Bosh hitting 53% of his jumpers 16-23 feet, you will surely not live long leaving him open.
Hes talking about the league tho.

mightybosstone
10-14-2013, 11:12 PM
1st things first, we are going off the assumption that Asik is the starter next to Howard, or sees significant minutes there. You might want to look at their roster and tell me who is supposed to be the starting PF. I'm not sold on Terrence Jones, Asik, or anyone they could possibly use as a starter.
Well that's your assumption and it's a bad one. You forget that the Rockets had a PF by committee pretty much the entire season after the trade deadline when they dealt Patrick Patterson. Jones and Motiejunas are a year older and have a year of experience under their belts, and you forget that those guys were mid-first round draft picks not that long ago.

If Dwight plays PF, it will be for maybe 5-10 minutes a game at the most to maximize Asik's minutes and to throw opposing teams a different look defensively. I doubt he gets more playing time at the position unless Morey and McHale feel it's the best possible route.

mightybosstone
10-14-2013, 11:18 PM
Okay.... There has been WAY too much ****ing discussion about whether Dwight could defend opposing PFs in this thread. At no point have Morey, McHale or anyone else hinted that Asik and Dwight will be starting on the floor together. And based on last season, the way the preseason has gone and how McHale generally likes to utilize his players on the floor, it would be a HUGE surprise if Dwight and Asik end up starting on the floor together to start the season.

Is it possible that Dwight and Asik end up starting later in the season? Possibly, but they would only do that if it helped them win games and if it was the best possible lineup. And if that's the case, all of this debate is a completely moot point, because they would only do that if it was working. So please, do not use that ****** argument as your basis to criticize this Rockets team. It's a bad argument based on nothing substantial whatsoever, and there are other legitimate points you could make if you wanted attack this Rockets team.

FOBolous
10-14-2013, 11:34 PM
Okay.... There has been WAY too much ****ing discussion about whether Dwight could defend opposing PFs in this thread. At no point have Morey, McHale or anyone else hinted that Asik and Dwight will be starting on the floor together. And based on last season, the way the preseason has gone and how McHale generally likes to utilize his players on the floor, it would be a HUGE surprise if Dwight and Asik end up starting on the floor together to start the season.

Is it possible that Dwight and Asik end up starting later in the season? Possibly, but they would only do that if it helped them win games and if it was the best possible lineup. And if that's the case, all of this debate is a completely moot point, because they would only do that if it was working. So please, do not use that ****** argument as your basis to criticize this Rockets team. It's a bad argument based on nothing substantial whatsoever, and there are other legitimate points you could make if you wanted attack this Rockets team.

actually, both McHale and Morey stated the Rockets will experiment with playing both Asik and Howard together with Howard at PF. though it is true that most Rockets fan prefers to have Asik come off the bench and have elite paint protection through all 4 quarters.

but anyways, this is what Howard himself said about playing the 4:


“For me and Omer to work is real simple,” Howard said. “If I get the rebound, he has to run the floor, be that first big to seal, try to get easy buckets. If he gets the rebound, it’s the same thing. On the defensive end, I have the ability to guard fours. I’ve done it in the past.

ChiSox219
10-14-2013, 11:36 PM
Well if you think either are ready to be a starting PF on a championship team... what can I say? I disagree.

That's fine but don't act like I need to look roster when you really don't know what you are talking about. You don't need superstars at every starting position and it's unlikely either of the young PFs would be playing more than 20mpg.



Any zone is busted by motion, good outside shooting and passing. A zone is used to keep guys out of the lane.

A 3-2 with Lin/Beverley/Harden/Parsons protecting the perimeter and Asik/Dwight splitting the interior is something I think would be effective in spurts. Of course any type of zone can be busted with good ball movement, just like a man defense can be broken with PnR, what I am talking about is playing to the stregths of the team and certainly not focused on keeping guys out of the lane, in fact it's inviting guys to challenge Asik and Dwight in the lane.



I clearly mean Noah and Deng. At the Center and SF he has two guys beside him that will cover most of his mistakes, and offer the versatility to take on the tougher scorer, and let Boozer defend the easier player to guard.

It wasn't clear to me, you just said help defenders and well Taj is better at that than Deng so...........



Well when you have Bosh hitting 53% of his jumpers 16-23 feet, you will surely not live long leaving him open.

What you do not understand is that even with Bosh shooting way above his normal average and a likely regression to the mean, that at 53% Bosh long twos were still less effective than the average Heat shot last year. Oh and you are less likely to recover an offensive rebound from that shot location than anywhere else. So yes, like Tom Thibodeau and Greg Popovich do, I will live Bosh taking long 2s if it means less Wade/Lebron layups and uncontested 3s.

shep33
10-14-2013, 11:36 PM
LOL. So Dwight never played PF now?

Yeah, but which Dwight are we talking about Chronz? The Dwight of the past two years hasn't been that monster of a few years back. I've seen him get scored on quite easily by guys like Al Jefferson, Timmy D, etc. this past year.

I've also seen him just lay back in the key and allow guys to shoot wide open jumpers from 16-18 feet.

FOBolous
10-14-2013, 11:39 PM
Yeah, but which Dwight are we talking about Chronz? The Dwight of the past two years hasn't been that monster of a few years back. I've seen him get scored on quite easily by guys like Al Jefferson, Timmy D, etc. this past year.

I've also seen him just lay back in the key and allow guys to shoot wide open jumpers from 16-18 feet.

you saw an unmotivated dwight that was coming off a major injury who had no chemistry with his teammates.

shep33
10-14-2013, 11:43 PM
you saw an unmotivated dwight that was coming off a major injury who had no chemistry with his teammates.


Your probably right, but regardless we still haven't seen "top 5 NBA player Dwight" in two seasons. We still don't know if he'll ever be the same player. There's a chance that he won't be. We'll find out in the first month or so if he's got that athleticism back.

shep33
10-14-2013, 11:47 PM
With all that being said, if he is back to what you say he is, there are no excuses for Houston not making it to the Finals considering people calling Harden the best SG in the NBA, and Dwight the best Center.

Two of the top players at their position in the entire NBA, plus a good group of shooters and a potential all-star SF in Parsons are on that squad as well.

No excuses for Dwight.

Team*Chicago
10-14-2013, 11:54 PM
Better than the Nets. But they better expect the Rockets FT% to suck *** with Dwight and Omer.

mightybosstone
10-15-2013, 12:06 AM
actually, both McHale and Morey stated the Rockets will experiment with playing both Asik and Howard together with Howard at PF. though it is true that most Rockets fan prefers to have Asik come off the bench and have elite paint protection through all 4 quarters.

but anyways, this is what Howard himself said about playing the 4:
Experimenting for a few minutes a game and starting for 30 plus minutes a night are two completely different things. As a Rockets fan, I would expect you to tell the difference between the two in this case.

FOBolous
10-15-2013, 12:13 AM
Experimenting for a few minutes a game and starting for 30 plus minutes a night are two completely different things. As a Rockets fan, I would expect you to tell the difference between the two in this case.

where did you get experiment for a "few minutes a game" from? experiment means experiments. experiment means they're going to play them together for an extended amount time of time to see if it works. you can't "experiment" and expect to get real results if you only "experiment" for a "few minutes a game."

aman_13
10-15-2013, 12:22 AM
I love their ball movement. They are going to be an great offensive team.

mightybosstone
10-15-2013, 12:24 AM
where did you get experiment for a "few minutes a game" from? experiment means experiments. experiment means they're going to play them together for an extended amount time of time to see if it works. you can't "experiment" and expect to get real results if you only "experiment" for a "few minutes a game."

It would also be ****ing idiotic to start two players next to each other that don't make sense on paper for 30 minutes per game to start the season. You ease into it. You don't jump in had first. Also, Asik hasn't played a minute yet in preseason, much less playing next to Dwight in this hypothetical frontcourt. There literally has been NO indication from anyone whatsoever at this point that the Rockets will start the season with both guys on the floor together. Its common sense, dude.

Clippersfan86
10-15-2013, 01:01 AM
God Chronz can you stop bringing up Dwight 7 years ago when he was 240 pounds. The guy is older, slower and 40 ish pounds heavier now. Although as I said that's not even the issue. He's lazy and doesn't have the desire to chase PF's outside the paint in recent years until proven otherwise.

FOBolous
10-15-2013, 01:19 AM
It would also be ****ing idiotic to start two players next to each other that don't make sense on paper for 30 minutes per game to start the season. You ease into it. You don't jump in had first. Also, Asik hasn't played a minute yet in preseason, much less playing next to Dwight in this hypothetical frontcourt. There literally has been NO indication from anyone whatsoever at this point that the Rockets will start the season with both guys on the floor together. Its common sense, dude.

and "experimenting for a few minutes a game" makes sense to you? It's common sense, dude. no indication from anyone whatsoever that the Rockets won't play Asik and Howard together for extended amount of time? how bout multiple interviews given by McHale and Morey? sure they might not start together due to Asik's injury keeping them from practicing and playing together in the pre-season but you can bet that they will "experiment" for an extended amount of time in games with Howard at the PF and Asik at the C.

unless, of course, you've seen or heard McHale and/or Morey say otherwise?

beasted86
10-15-2013, 01:27 AM
That's fine but don't act like I need to look roster when you really don't know what you are talking about. You don't need superstars at every starting position and it's unlikely either of the young PFs would be playing more than 20mpg.
Regardless you are asking for guys with little to no playoff experience to go from seldom used back role player rookie, to starting PF on a championship team. Like I said, I disagree with you thinking they are ready or it will be fine. It will be a clear weakness, the same as when the HEAT was forced to play Joel Anthony or an older Ilgauskas or Dampier in the Big 3's first season.




A 3-2 with Lin/Beverley/Harden/Parsons protecting the perimeter and Asik/Dwight splitting the interior is something I think would be effective in spurts. Of course any type of zone can be busted with good ball movement, just like a man defense can be broken with PnR, what I am talking about is playing to the stregths of the team and certainly not focused on keeping guys out of the lane, in fact it's inviting guys to challenge Asik and Dwight in the lane.

It wasn't clear to me, you just said help defenders and well Taj is better at that than Deng so...........

What you do not understand is that even with Bosh shooting way above his normal average and a likely regression to the mean, that at 53% Bosh long twos were still less effective than the average Heat shot last year. Oh and you are less likely to recover an offensive rebound from that shot location than anywhere else. So yes, like Tom Thibodeau and Greg Popovich do, I will live Bosh taking long 2s if it means less Wade/Lebron layups and uncontested 3s.

That was Bosh's normal regular season average by the way for jumpshots 16-23 feet. The HEAT team as a whole hit 49.6% of all types of FGs. And it doesn't have to just be long 2s. If you are giving Bosh or most of the guys I mentioned a wide open corner 3, don't expect to live long in the post season. Its never a good strategy to give wide open shots to knock down jump shooters.

ChiSox219
10-15-2013, 08:44 AM
Regardless you are asking for guys with little to no playoff experience to go from seldom used back role player rookie, to starting PF on a championship team. Like I said, I disagree with you thinking they are ready or it will be fine. It will be a clear weakness, the same as when the HEAT was forced to play Joel Anthony or an older Ilgauskas or Dampier in the Big 3's first season.





That was Bosh's normal regular season average by the way for jumpshots 16-23 feet. The HEAT team as a whole hit 49.6% of all types of FGs. And it doesn't have to just be long 2s. If you are giving Bosh or most of the guys I mentioned a wide open corner 3, don't expect to live long in the post season. Its never a good strategy to give wide open shots to knock down jump shooters.

Nah man, the Heat had an eFG% over 55% so Bosh giving Bosh the long 2 even at 53% is still better than the alternative. And again, Bosh is more likely to shoot ~45% from that area going forward. The best defenses in the league give up the most mid range jumpers because it's the least effective shot.

b@llhog24
10-15-2013, 08:51 AM
This. Just because he's the best paint defender doesn't mean he's better than the PF's defensively OUTSIDE the paint. People forget how lazy this guy is. Last guy up the floor everytime yet you expect him to chase PF's 22 feet out? Nope.

Well... That's a first.


So when Ben Wallace went between playing C and PF throughout his career, there was such a drastic change that he went from DPOY caliber to liability? When Hakeem went from PF to full fledged C, he changed dramatically? Sorry I dont buy the theory that Dwight cant adapt to the point where it becomes a weakness in his teams defense.


Not buying it. Hes locked down on those players before, if Raph was still posting he would bring up the numerous times hes locked those very same players down.


Its easy to trust your teammate when hes an equally capable defender. Dwight isn't entirely new to the concept either, he wasn't raised a center, he started off a PF and grew into the C position. Either way, of all the names you mentioned, NONE of them will defend PF's and still provide superb help defense the way Dwight can. So how is it a problem when hes still a better defensive option than ALL the guys you mentioned?


No THX, everyone knows Bosh has been Dwights ***** for as long as anyone can remember.

Wonder where that guy is. Awesome poster.


hey now. I am not expecting anything. What I am saying is, at his age, and after his back needed to be fused together, I question his ability to deal with a stretch 4. I am not calling him a liability, I am simply saying I don't believe, until proven otherwise, that Dwight guarding the best stretch 4's in the game will be a positive (we are talking about a VERY short list). That being said, how many minutes are we actually talking about?

Lets be honest. Asik's days in Houston are limited.

If so, then why does this matter?


With all that being said, if he is back to what you say he is, there are no excuses for Houston not making it to the Finals considering people calling Harden the best SG in the NBA, and Dwight the best Center.

Two of the top players at their position in the entire NBA, plus a good group of shooters and a potential all-star SF in Parsons are on that squad as well.

No excuses for Dwight.

No it doesn't. Most are expecting semi finals/WCF from them. Having two top players don't necessairly mean they're going to the finals. If they get knocked out of the first round or something and they were healthy then I'd say they underachieved.

mightybosstone
10-15-2013, 09:01 AM
and "experimenting for a few minutes a game" makes sense to you? It's common sense, dude. no indication from anyone whatsoever that the Rockets won't play Asik and Howard together for extended amount of time? how bout multiple interviews given by McHale and Morey? sure they might not start together due to Asik's injury keeping them from practicing and playing together in the pre-season but you can bet that they will "experiment" for an extended amount of time in games with Howard at the PF and Asik at the C.

unless, of course, you've seen or heard McHale and/or Morey say otherwise?

Okay. When did you EVER hear or read ANYONE say the words "start together?" Find me a source that says those words or even something which just says that Howard may start at PF or that Asik could start at C. I'll be waiting a while, because such a source doesn't exist.

It's not going to happen, at least not early in the season. And just because Morey and McHale said they might play some time on the floor together does not mean it will be more than a few minutes here or there. You're basically reading WAY too much into a few comments made months ago rather than looking at the situation with common sense. Does it make sense to start two players with no offensive range and horrible free throw shooting for 30+ minutes a night in the same frontcourt? No. It doesn't.

Let that be the end of this debate until we actually see it come to fruition.

mightybosstone
10-15-2013, 09:05 AM
And for the record, he's a direct Q&A from an AMA Morey did on Reddit that everyone was referencing:

Q: Also, what are the chances we see Asik getting minutes as a power forward?

A: Coach McHale plans to experiment with Dwight at PF and Omer as C in training camp. If it works and helps us win, obviously we would look at using it.
Notice the words "training camp," and the fact that he says "If it works and helps us win." They're not going to throw these guys out there starting next to each other on opening tip off unless it's worked in practicality in a real game situation. There is literally no chance they start together to begin the season.

FlashBolt
10-15-2013, 09:10 AM
It's going to be a huge waste for Asik. He's a good center who can certainly start for any other team. Rockets should have found someone for a trade or something. Two big centers with bad free throw shooting, not plenty of offensive moves, and no range to their game? Not exactly a great duo.

mightybosstone
10-15-2013, 09:15 AM
Regardless you are asking for guys with little to no playoff experience to go from seldom used back role player rookie, to starting PF on a championship team. Like I said, I disagree with you thinking they are ready or it will be fine. It will be a clear weakness, the same as when the HEAT was forced to play Joel Anthony or an older Ilgauskas or Dampier in the Big 3's first season.
It's not like the Rockets have no depth at the position. They have three young PFs in Jones, Motiejunas and Smith, two stretch forwards who could play some 4 in a pinch in Parsons and Casspi and Howard, who could play some occasional minutes at PF.

Also, Jones' numbers were actually quite good for a rookie last season. He put up 13.6 points, 8.5 rebounds, 2 assists, 2.5 blocks and 1.6 steals per 36 minutes with a 17.1 PER and a .128 WS/48. I don't think you can expect that kind of production on day one as a starter, but I do think it shows how versatile the guy is, and he's got the chops to play the position. Considering that Patrick Patterson was the Rockets' starter for most of the season last year, are you telling me that Jones couldn't put up similar numbers to Patterson given the same amount of minutes?

Lets not pretend that Jones was some kind of undrafted D-League scrub who the Rockets picked up on a whim, either. Jones was a first round draft pick who was an All-SEC selection on a championship team in Kentucky and put up very good numbers in college. Motiejunas was also a very highly sought after player who has a ton of experience playing in Lithuania.

Will PF be a weakness on this team? Probably, but it's not some gigantic weakness they can't overcome. They made the playoffs last season with PF as their weakest position and less talent overall on the roster. There's no reason to believe they won't make improvements as a team in spite of who gets minutes at the 4.

FlashBolt
10-15-2013, 09:22 AM
Regardless you are asking for guys with little to no playoff experience to go from seldom used back role player rookie, to starting PF on a championship team. Like I said, I disagree with you thinking they are ready or it will be fine. It will be a clear weakness, the same as when the HEAT was forced to play Joel Anthony or an older Ilgauskas or Dampier in the Big 3's first season.
It's not like the Rockets have no depth at the position. They have three young PFs in Jones, Motiejunas and Smith, two stretch forwards who could play some 4 in a pinch in Parsons and Casspi and Howard, who could play some occasional minutes at PF.

Also, Jones' numbers were actually quite good for a rookie last season. He put up 13.6 points, 8.5 rebounds, 2 assists, 2.5 blocks and 1.6 steals per 36 minutes with a 17.1 PER and a .128 WS/48. I don't think you can expect that kind of production on day one as a starter, but I do think it shows how versatile the guy is, and he's got the chops to play the position. Considering that Patrick Patterson was the Rockets' starter for most of the season last year, are you telling me that Jones couldn't put up similar numbers to Patterson given the same amount of minutes?

Lets not pretend that Jones was some kind of undrafted D-League scrub who the Rockets picked up on a whim, either. Jones was a first round draft pick who was an All-SEC selection on a championship team in Kentucky and put up very good numbers in college. Motiejunas was also a very highly sought after player who has a ton of experience playing in Lithuania.

Will PF be a weakness on this team? Probably, but it's not some gigantic weakness they can't overcome. They made the playoffs last season with PF as their weakest position and less talent overall on the roster. There's no reason to believe they won't make improvements as a team in spite of who gets minutes at the 4.

Which player won't look good with per 36?

mightybosstone
10-15-2013, 09:33 AM
Which player won't look good with per 36?

Per 36 numbers aren't an accurate representation of a player's production in a starting role by any means, but I do think they're a good indication of the kind of potential a player has if given more minutes. Asik was was a great example. This time last season I was arguing that his per 36 minutes numbers were solid numbers for a starting NBA center and people said the same thing. What happened. He actually improved upon both his rebounding numbers and offensive production given starter's minutes.

Also, as I already mentioned, Jones' advanced numbers were very good. He has a ways to go on the defensive end, but offensively and on the glass, there's definitely potential for a breakout year this season.

I Rock Shaqs
10-15-2013, 10:04 AM
Okay. When did you EVER hear or read ANYONE say the words "start together?" Find me a source that says those words or even something which just says that Howard may start at PF or that Asik could start at C. I'll be waiting a while, because such a source doesn't exist.

It's not going to happen, at least not early in the season. And just because Morey and McHale said they might play some time on the floor together does not mean it will be more than a few minutes here or there. You're basically reading WAY too much into a few comments made months ago rather than looking at the situation with common sense. Does it make sense to start two players with no offensive range and horrible free throw shooting for 30+ minutes a night in the same frontcourt? No. It doesn't.

Let that be the end of this debate until we actually see it come to fruition.

:oldguy:

astrosmaniac
10-15-2013, 10:10 AM
1st things first, we are going off the assumption that Asik is the starter next to Howard, or sees significant minutes there. You might want to look at their roster and tell me who is supposed to be the starting PF. I'm not sold on Terrence Jones, Asik, or anyone they could possibly use as a starter.

2nd, a zone typically exposes a team's perimeter 3PT defense. I think you have this backwards.

3rd, Boozer has possibly the two best help defenders opposite him than any other weak defensive PF.

4th, the video was just an illustration, ignore the title or main subject matter. There were 3 plays shown with Bosh on Howard. Two times he lit him up for a barely contested J, and the final play he drove right by Howard, causing him to reach in and foul out. The point was showing Howard isn't used to defending guys that far from the basket. He would have to relearn how to defend and break habits over a long time of playing.

They aren't any worse as a 5th option than mario chalmers was for the heat in their first year or two together. So far, every rockets starting lineup in preseason has dominated their opponents (twice against the pacers). I know it's preseason, but they are capable players, not scrubs. They were both top 20 picks for a reason.

mightybosstone
10-15-2013, 10:14 AM
:oldguy:

I have no idea what this is is suppossed to reference. If you have nothing relevant to add to the conversation, how about just not saying anything at all?

beasted86
10-15-2013, 11:19 AM
Nah, Chalmers was ok, it was having to play Joel Anthony, Big Z, or Dampier extra minutes than first planned because of the Haslem injury.

I think Jones is a fine player, just not a starter yet on a championship team. It also isn't like the Rockets have all NBA defenders on the wings either for help defense. So often you will have a second year guy out on an island trying to defend a ZBO or Dirk or Blake or a number of potent scorers. I just don't think he is ready. Also don't think he can spread the floor enough for Howard or Asik. Patterson had a better jumper.

beasted86
10-15-2013, 11:49 AM
It's not like the Rockets have no depth at the position. They have three young PFs in Jones, Motiejunas and Smith, two stretch forwards who could play some 4 in a pinch in Parsons and Casspi and Howard, who could play some occasional minutes at PF.

Also, Jones' numbers were actually quite good for a rookie last season. He put up 13.6 points, 8.5 rebounds, 2 assists, 2.5 blocks and 1.6 steals per 36 minutes with a 17.1 PER and a .128 WS/48. I don't think you can expect that kind of production on day one as a starter, but I do think it shows how versatile the guy is, and he's got the chops to play the position. Considering that Patrick Patterson was the Rockets' starter for most of the season last year, are you telling me that Jones couldn't put up similar numbers to Patterson given the same amount of minutes?

Lets not pretend that Jones was some kind of undrafted D-League scrub who the Rockets picked up on a whim, either. Jones was a first round draft pick who was an All-SEC selection on a championship team in Kentucky and put up very good numbers in college. Motiejunas was also a very highly sought after player who has a ton of experience playing in Lithuania.

Will PF be a weakness on this team? Probably, but it's not some gigantic weakness they can't overcome. They made the playoffs last season with PF as their weakest position and less talent overall on the roster. There's no reason to believe they won't make improvements as a team in spite of who gets minutes at the 4.

As another poster said, per 36 is a poor gauge.... but it becomes a REALLY poor gauge when the said player didn't even break 25 games regular season and playoffs combined.

It isn't about Jones and the rest of the cast being good enough to make the playoffs again. Its about competing for a championship. I mean this team is a little similar to the 04-05 HEAT in that they were a mediocre playoff team, added a superstar Center, and the goal was a championship. But I think there are significant differences. 1. Howard is no Shaq. 2. Harden is no Wade, not even 2nd year Wade. 3. Haslem was a senior coming out of UF, played a pro season overseas, and played a majority of the previous season and playoffs starting a number of games... Jones only had 2 college years and is relatively unproven in the NBA. 4. The HEAT had to go through Detroit, and nobody else. The Rockets instead have a number of legit contenders to go through in the West.

Like I said in my first post, I still do think this team can go pretty far, but I need to see a real starting PF via an Asik trade or some other move or trade.

Chronz
10-15-2013, 12:45 PM
This. Just because he's the best paint defender doesn't mean he's better than the PF's defensively OUTSIDE the paint. People forget how lazy this guy is. Last guy up the floor everytime yet you expect him to chase PF's 22 feet out? Nope.

Lazy? Last guy up the floor? WTF? Why would a lazy player be so impactful defensively, all the while, playing through injury sooner than he should have.

Chronz
10-15-2013, 12:54 PM
Okay.... There has been WAY too much ****ing discussion about whether Dwight could defend opposing PFs in this thread. At no point have Morey, McHale or anyone else hinted that Asik and Dwight will be starting on the floor together.
I dont care how often they play together, its still the point of discussion. Dwight can defend ANY big.


hey now. I am not expecting anything. What I am saying is, at his age, and after his back needed to be fused together, I question his ability to deal with a stretch 4. I am not calling him a liability, I am simply saying I don't believe, until proven otherwise, that Dwight guarding the best stretch 4's in the game will be a positive (we are talking about a VERY short list).
Why are you limiting it to stretch-4's when the discussion is about Dwight defending ALL PF's. Still lets limit it to that specific complaint, if hes not a liability and the list of players you would want defending stretch-4's is short, then what exactly are you trying to say? The point of the discussion is to ensure people that Dwight defending at the 4 is no worse an option than the multitude of players brought up. Lets put it this way, if Dwight defending at that position isn't a positive, then what do you call guys like Love, Blake, LMA, Bosh, Ryan Anderson? Surely you dont expect to believe inferior athletes/defenders are better equipped for the job.

Against the leagues 4's, Dwight is better equipped to defend them than much of the league, so how exactly is it a point of complaint? And the whole, until proven otherwise line goes both ways. Ill believe you guys when I see Dwight suddenly (out of nowhere mind you) struggle defending from an individual and team standpoint. If you dont expect him to be a liability, I honestly dont know why you jumped in the convo.

Chronz
10-15-2013, 12:55 PM
Which player won't look good with per 36?
WTF? Lots of them. When you put players on an equal platform, there are ALWAYS going to be players who stand out (both good and bad).

Chronz
10-15-2013, 12:58 PM
God Chronz can you stop bringing up Dwight 7 years ago when he was 240 pounds.
I've already addressed this laughable point. Young Dwight wasn't as good of a defender so why would I look at 7 years ago?


The guy is older, slower and 40 ish pounds heavier now. Although as I said that's not even the issue. He's lazy and doesn't have the desire to chase PF's outside the paint in recent years until proven otherwise.

Sounds like you havent watched Dwight in 7 years.

Continue ignoring posts tho, keep regurgitating the same trash over and over and Im sure it will pass off. Newsflash, having Dwight on the court as a 4 man is a defensive upgrade on having someone like Blake. If its a problem for Houston then its a problem for most of the league.

ztilzer31
10-15-2013, 01:05 PM
The low amount of basketball knowledge in this site is what brings it down.

The haters in this forum have switched sights from LBJ to Dwight.

Is Dwight perfect? No. Is he the best Center in the NBA? Yes. By a lot actually.

Dwight+Asik isn't something you would use all the time. It's a big lineup that would do well in about 15-20 minutes a game. Rockets don't plan on having Asik and Howard out there for 48 minutes every day.

Dwight is an excellent basketball player. If you tell yourself otherwise you're only lying to yourself, and hurting your own validity as a poster in this forum.

Chronz
10-15-2013, 01:23 PM
Yeah, but which Dwight are we talking about Chronz?
The DPOY caliber big hes always been.


The Dwight of the past two years hasn't been that monster of a few years back.
Yet he remains an impactful defender.


I've seen him get scored on quite easily by guys like Al Jefferson, Timmy D, etc. this past year.

A throwaway statement, Ive seen Al Jefferson get locked down by LeBron James. Does that make him a better defensive option than Dwight at center? Opponents shot 36.7% against Dwight, a great accomplishment considering how ****** his teams defense was when he wasn't the one holding it down and how often he was out helping off his man.

Funny you mention Duncan tho. Is he a Center or a PF these days, what about LMA, hes moving back to PF with Lopez in town, is Dwight suddenly suppose to struggle against LMA just because he changed the position hes moving to, after already struggling vs Dwight the year prior? Does it really matter? Do people think positional labels that may be outdated or arbitrary are suppose to turn a DPOY caliber big into a liability? If so, can SOMEONE, ANYONE, show me the last time this has happened? When has someone as athletic/mobile as Dwight ever gone from DPOY caliber to complete liability by a simple change of position? The Lakers hid Pau whenever they could so its not like Dwight hasn't had practice defending all sorts of players. I've seen LMA abuse a natural PF like Blake, Ive also seen him struggle vs Dwight throughout his career, why am I letting positions dictate anything?



I've also seen him just lay back in the key and allow guys to shoot wide open jumpers from 16-18 feet.
Thats prolly because hes a smart defender (though Ive also seen him block those very same shots). Put it this way, who do you think does a better job defensively at the 4, Dwight or Pau? I love how everyone just focuses on 1 on 1 defense also, neglecting the fact that TEAM defense is FAR more important.

D-Leethal
10-15-2013, 01:32 PM
Being a good defender isn't an all encompassing thing. Dwight is a fantasic post defender and help defender. That doesn't mean that translates to being a fantasic defender against face up forwards. Dwight can jump out of the gym but can he slide his feet laterally in a low defensive stance?

My money is on no - I cannot see him guarding face up 4s or guarding pick and pops. I don't even think its feasible to think he can guard those types of players and defend 15+ feet from the basket.

ILLUSIONIST^248
10-15-2013, 01:33 PM
You have higher hopes for them than I do. I don't even think they will crack 50 wins and most likely out in the first round for sure.

Hope you enjoy D-12 Houston fans. Especially if McHale gives into him and lets him have more touches in the post. Lulz.If Dwight wants to be the number one, the Rockets will fail miserably.



48-34 6th in the west, 1st or 2nd round exit.Yup

lol, please
10-15-2013, 01:39 PM
Worse than the Warriors.

5ass
10-15-2013, 01:40 PM
Agreed with chronz. I dont see dwight struggling defensively. Dwight has never played with a good defender alongside him in the front line. I do think he needs to adjust his defense playing with asik, but i think hes capable.

Chronz
10-15-2013, 01:53 PM
Being a good defender isn't an all encompassing thing.
Im not asking Dwight to defend PG's here.



Dwight can jump out of the gym but can he slide his feet laterally in a low defensive stance?
Can Kevin Love? Can Dirk? Why do natural PF's like Blake struggle defending guys like Z-Bo, LMA, Duncan while Dwight does a far better job? And why are people ignoring TEAM DEFENSE anyways? Is my teams defense suppose to compromised because Dwight is at the 4? Such an argument would imply that natural PF's would do a better job just by virtue of playing their natural position. Im sorry, I dont give a **** where you play Dwight, guys like Love aren't suddenly going to become superior defenders. If its a problem for Houston, its going to be a problem for most of the league. Z-Bo sure as hell isn't any better at defending from the 4 position than Dwight is.


My money is on no - I cannot see him guarding face up 4s or guarding pick and pops. I don't even think its feasible to think he can guard those types of players and defend 15+ feet from the basket.
Hes done it in the past, in fact, the very last play he made before he went out with back problems for Orlando was stopping an Iggy isolation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5xKzEZHvHo

Now that was just 2 years ago and while playing with back problems, Im not expecting him to be that mobile anymore, but we aren't talking about swings and PG's here, we are talking about players who are usually less athletic than he is, why would he struggle any more than guys like Booz, Bosh, Melo when playing the 4?

I dont know how often he has defended at the 4 spot since his back surgery but every facet of his defensive game improved as the season went along. At one point after the ASB, he meant about 15PTS to the Lakers defense. A ridiculous number and prolly a result of small sample size, but its still a great sign going forward.


I mean, who exactly are these players that Dwight will struggle with to the point where it harms his teams defense. Who are these clear defensive upgrades at the 4?


Why is Dwight being singled out, when hes a better defensive option than the majority of the league?

Chronz
10-15-2013, 01:58 PM
From the way you guys are talking, its as if you guys think Dwight is Pau Gasol on defense. Pau+Dwight vs Asik+Dwight. Asik+Patterson vs Asik+Dwight. Which combos do you guys got your money on? LMFAO

Asik+Dwight would be one of the best defensive combo's in the league. Perfect? Nope, Dwight isn't the youngster he used to be, but thats not an argument against them succeeding defensively because Im not expecting perfection like I would if this were 2-3 years ago. But Dwight has definitely earned the benefit of the doubt given how inferior combinations have fared.


Im tired of these generalities tho, can someone plz answer the questions above or show me these far superior defenders at the 4, the superior combinations, better yet, show me a team you guys think would be a nightmare for Dwight+Asik to defend (because the Lakers DID play Dwight as a 4man whenever it was in their best interest) whatever. SHOW ME ANYTHING.

shep33
10-15-2013, 02:27 PM
The DPOY caliber big hes always been.


Yet he remains an impactful defender.


A throwaway statement, Ive seen Al Jefferson get locked down by LeBron James. Does that make him a better defensive option than Dwight at center? Opponents shot 36.7% against Dwight, a great accomplishment considering how ****** his teams defense was when he wasn't the one holding it down and how often he was out helping off his man.

Funny you mention Duncan tho. Is he a Center or a PF these days, what about LMA, hes moving back to PF with Lopez in town, is Dwight suddenly suppose to struggle against LMA just because he changed the position hes moving to, after already struggling vs Dwight the year prior? Does it really matter? Do people think positional labels that may be outdated or arbitrary are suppose to turn a DPOY caliber big into a liability? If so, can SOMEONE, ANYONE, show me the last time this has happened? When has someone as athletic/mobile as Dwight ever gone from DPOY caliber to complete liability by a simple change of position? The Lakers hid Pau whenever they could so its not like Dwight hasn't had practice defending all sorts of players. I've seen LMA abuse a natural PF like Blake, Ive also seen him struggle vs Dwight throughout his career, why am I letting positions dictate anything?



Thats prolly because hes a smart defender (though Ive also seen him block those very same shots). Put it this way, who do you think does a better job defensively at the 4, Dwight or Pau? I love how everyone just focuses on 1 on 1 defense also, neglecting the fact that TEAM defense is FAR more important.


We'll see what happens this year, I just don't know if Dwight can do it every night against NBA power forwards. Without question he's still an impactful defender, I just haven't seen that Dwight in quite a while. I actually thought he deserved MVP over LBJ a few years back with Orlando due to his defensive brilliance. But his body looks so much different Chronz, he doesn't look like he has that explosiveness like he once did either.

I think his numbers will never be the same honestly, they'll always be great, but I question whether we'll see that superstar freak athlete ever again.

I just don't like the idea of him guarding opposing 4's because it's going to take him out of the paint in my opinion. The place where he's most effective.

Honestly, I just can't wait for the season to start, because we have no clue of which Dwight Howard we'll see until he's on the court.

Chronz
10-15-2013, 02:33 PM
Im currently looking at the some of the most efficient defensive lineups from last year(with minutes restriction), tell me which one of these teams would Dwight make worse by replacing their "natural" PF:


Spurs : Duncan+Splitter
This lineup with Kawhi and Green were tops in the league defensively, I dont know who you guys classify as the PF but I think we can all agree Splitter is a downgrade. Replacing Duncan is a good point but I would argue that Duncan is just as flexible with where he can play, his position is more defined by who he has around him.


Memphis: Z-Bo
The lineup with Gasol, Tony, Prince and Conley was technically less efficient than the Spurs but they also carried a bigger share of their teams defensive ranking (556 Minutes vs 362). Can you guys honestly tell me with a straight face that Dwight replacing Z-Bo and his 9 inch vert and led feet are an upgrade on Dwight?


Toronto: Amir Johnson/J.Val
I remember being caught off guard by this one, but when the Raps traded for Gay, their entire defensive ranking shifted. I dont know who plays more of a PF role here, but you guys are idiots if you think Dwight isn't a CLEAR upgrade on either of these guys.

NYK: Melo (lmfao)
The Knicks with a lineup of Felton, Kidd, Smith, Melo and TC were stout defensively. Am I suppose to believe that Carmelo is a better defensive option at the 4?



Obviously this doesn't account for all the lineups these PF's may be used in, but seriously guys, your telling me you have a hard time imagine the Rox unleashing 2 DPOY caliber bigs from time to time? The Rockets were a **** defensive team all year but they were pretty respectable when Asik was out there. Can someone explain why Pat Patterson and his total lack of rebounding/rim protection is suppose to be an upgrade on Dwight? Dwight+Asik will fare better for Houston than any other combination they could have used last year, its on offense where problems should emerge.

Chronz
10-15-2013, 02:35 PM
We'll see what happens this year, I just don't know if Dwight can do it every night against NBA power forwards.
Just tell me, whos a better defender (TEAM+MAN) at the 4, Kevin Love or Dwight Howard?

The only middle ground we can take here is that Dwight and Asik will be at least, above average defensively. Those who say he will struggle in the role are basically saying hes less of a defensive force than the likes of Pat Patterson/Morris. The guys who when combined with Asik, led the Rockets to a better than average defensive efficiency.

shep33
10-15-2013, 02:41 PM
Just tell me, whos a better defender (TEAM+MAN) at the 4, Kevin Love or Dwight Howard?

Without question Dwight.

beasted86
10-15-2013, 02:44 PM
Just tell me, whos a better defender (TEAM+MAN) at the 4, Kevin Love or Dwight Howard?


Does it matter? Love isn't a good defender at any position, and his team has never competed for a championship.

We are talking about defense that it will take to win a championship. The rest of the Rockets help defenders aren't good. You know you are in trouble when Francisco Garcia is your best wing/big guard defender.

5ass
10-15-2013, 02:54 PM
Does it matter? Love isn't a good defender at any position, and his team has never competed for a championship.

We are talking about defense that it will take to win a championship. The rest of the Rockets help defenders aren't good. You know you are in trouble when Francisco Garcia is your best wing/big guard defender.
He's not, they have Ronnie Brewer.

Chronz
10-15-2013, 02:58 PM
Does it matter? Love isn't a good defender at any position, and his team has never competed for a championship.
So if I switched up Love for Z-Bo, would that change things? How about Blake, David West, Melo, Lee, Boozer or Bosh/Udonis when they played the 4? Are these guys better defenders than Dwight at the 4? Im not sure what you guys mean by struggling . Some here were speculating he would outright fail for laughable reasons that make no sense. Especially coming from blake griffins fan club over there.


We are talking about defense that it will take to win a championship.
I thought we were talking about Dwight going from a DPOY caliber big, to struggling entirely, all because of a very small shift in his position. The likes of which hes done before and did so sporadically last year.

Those who are saying he will struggle are saying the Rockets will be worse off than they were when it was Asik+marginal PF. I dont see that happening and the reasons given are laughable. I never saw anything about a championship since that is decided by how you play on BOTH ends.


The rest of the Rockets help defenders aren't good. You know you are in trouble when Francisco Garcia is your best wing/big guard defender.
Agreed. But that doesn't mean Dwight himself will struggle. Dwight was surrounded by far worse defenders (IMO) last year in LA and still was able to make a monstrous difference in their defensive efficiency. I cant envision a lineup of Dwight+Asik struggling worse than Asik+anyone else.

Chronz
10-15-2013, 02:59 PM
He's not, they have Ronnie Brewer.

Brewer will never see a single minute with Asik+Dwight on the court. Believe me, you cant survive with 3 non shooters in todays NBA, at least in Detroit the 3 non-shooters are all immensely talented.

Chronz
10-15-2013, 03:03 PM
I dont know how else I can simplify this but lets put it this way.

Asik+Dwight should be a mess offensively, right? If you're trying to tell me that Asik+Dwight are also going to be a mess defensively, that means the duo will play downright awful basketball, like well below .500. Im expecting the duo to get away with .500 ball, meaning when they share the court, the team will barely be able to get by with their offensive lapses because of their defensive strength.

Can you guys really envision Dwight turning a respectable team without him, worse on both ends?

beasted86
10-15-2013, 03:08 PM
He's not, they have Ronnie Brewer.

Forgot about him, but the late pickup doesn't look promising as far as what exact role he will have because he is a big negative offensively.

Its pretty clear Harden, Parsons, Delfino, and Garcia are the main guys.

beasted86
10-15-2013, 03:28 PM
So if I switched up Love for Z-Bo, would that change things? How about Blake, David West, Melo, Lee, Boozer or Bosh/Udonis when they played the 4? Are these guys better defenders than Dwight at the 4? Im not sure what you guys mean by struggling . Some here were speculating he would outright fail for laughable reasons that make no sense. Especially coming from blake griffins fan club over there.
ZBO has Gasol > Asik, Prince/Pondexter > Parsons, Allen > Harden, and Conley > Lin as his help defenders. I think West is equal or possibly a little better than what I would expect out of Dwight defending PFs on a regular basis, but again, his help is way better. Hibbert > Asik, George > Parson, Stevenson > Harden, Hill > Lin. I can rinse and repeat for the Bulls and Boozer. Lee has never played for a contender, and some can argue the same for Melo and Blake. The Knicks were also below league average defensively. The Clippers were never a serious threat to win it. I think Haslem pre-injury is definitely a better defender at the 4 than Howard. Battier is better against most of the league's smaller 4s, but again this doesn't matter because most other positions are better than the Rockets defensively. The same rinse and repeat.



I thought we were talking about Dwight going from a DPOY caliber big, to struggling entirely, all because of a very small shift in his position. The likes of which hes done before and did so sporadically last year.

Those who are saying he will struggle are saying the Rockets will be worse off than they were when it was Asik+marginal PF. I dont see that happening and the reasons given are laughable. I never saw anything about a championship since that is decided by how you play on BOTH ends.
I haven't seen where anyone has said that. This topic line started when people were predicting how stout the pairing of Howard and Asik would be on the court at the same time, essentially saying even though the offense would suffer their defense would be the best in the league.


Agreed. But that doesn't mean Dwight himself will struggle. Dwight was surrounded by far worse defenders (IMO) last year in LA and still was able to make a monstrous difference in their defensive efficiency. I cant envision a lineup of Dwight+Asik struggling worse than Asik+anyone else.
The Rockets basically lost nothing and gained a DPOY candidate. Of course the team's defense has improved overall. But from an analysis point due to what will be a combined hack-a-whoever in the front court, a slower pace, and added inefficient FT shooting, their offense will go down some with that improved defense.

Really I still feel the team is incomplete, because if they go the entire season with this front court, they won't be winning a championship. The team reminds me of the early Big 3 era when we lost Haslem, and we just simply had an incomplete front court that was missing something and we were constantly trying to fill it with a Z or Dampier, or Joel Anthony, and just never found a good enough combo to win with it.

Htownballa1622
10-15-2013, 03:46 PM
Forgot about him, but the late pickup doesn't look promising as far as what exact role he will have because he is a big negative offensively.

Its pretty clear Harden, Parsons, Delfino, and Garcia are the main guys.

no.

Clippersfan86
10-15-2013, 03:49 PM
Chronz I don't think it's fair or true to say anybody is saying they will be downright bad offensively OR defensively. I know for me what I'm saying is they will be extremely unbalanced. Very elite on both ends in some ways, very exposed in other ways. Interior offense+defense should be elite between the pair but no other team will have the same deficiency they will on the perimeter on either end of the floor. Just like no team will score well in the paint against them, or be able to stop them in the paint.

Chronz
10-15-2013, 03:54 PM
ZBO has Gasol > Asik, Prince/Pondexter > Parsons, Allen > Harden, and Conley > Lin as his help defenders.
But we are talking about the INDIVIDUALS ability to impact the teams defense from that position. Its obvious the more help defenders you have alongside you, the better your going to look, that doesn't change the fact that having Dwight as your 4-man is an improvement on what the majority of the league can put out there. Dwight's dominance defensively is not restricted to only the Center position.


I think West is equal or possibly a little better than what I would expect out of Dwight defending PFs on a regular basis, but again, his help is way better.
Thats insulting to Dwight. Cant believe you actually believe Haslem is a better defender than Dwight



I haven't seen where anyone has said that.
Heres the most offensive post thus far:
Dwight isn't going to be consistently be guarding PF's, trust me. If he does he's likely going to fail.

You said this yourself:

This doesn't mean he has the discipline or lateral quickness to guard the elite PFs and not fail due to habits he has developed as a Center.

You outright questioned his tools to perform on that end, even though he outclasses most players at the position when it comes to physical tools. You started talking about PnR hedging as if Dwight hasn't mastered various forms of defending this staple.



The Rockets basically lost nothing and gained a DPOY candidate. Of course the team's defense has improved overall. But from an analysis point due to what will be a combined hack-a-whoever in the front court, a slower pace, and added inefficient FT shooting, their offense will go down some with that improved defense.
Im only concerned with their defensive success. If you feel the duo will fail to mesh to the point where their defense cant offset their offensive clashing and in sum, be a net negative for the team, then fine. But its quite a reach to say BOTH their offense and defense will clash, that would result in a FAR worse scenario than the 50/50 proposition Im expecting.

mightybosstone
10-15-2013, 03:56 PM
As another poster said, per 36 is a poor gauge.... but it becomes a REALLY poor gauge when the said player didn't even break 25 games regular season and playoffs combined.
I realize that it's a small sample size, but we're talking about an extremely young player who should only get better in theory. And it's not like he hasn't crushed the D-League and the summer leagues. There's no reason to believe he doesn't have a good chance to break out this season.


It isn't about Jones and the rest of the cast being good enough to make the playoffs again. Its about competing for a championship.
First off, I don't even think the Rockets are likely to make the championship this season. I think they're probably 1-2 seasons away from making the Finals. That being said, let's not pretend that most Finals teams are perfect. In fact, most champions have 1-2 below average players on their starting rosters. Chalmers and Battier for Miami, Kidd and Stevenson for Dallas, Fisher and MWP/Ariza for LA, etc.


I mean this team is a little similar to the 04-05 HEAT in that they were a mediocre playoff team, added a superstar Center, and the goal was a championship. But I think there are significant differences. 1. Howard is no Shaq. 2. Harden is no Wade, not even 2nd year Wade. 3. Haslem was a senior coming out of UF, played a pro season overseas, and played a majority of the previous season and playoffs starting a number of games... Jones only had 2 college years and is relatively unproven in the NBA. 4. The HEAT had to go through Detroit, and nobody else. The Rockets instead have a number of legit contenders to go through in the West.
I think you mean the 05-06 Heat team. I'll agree that Harden has not yet reached the level of Wade at his peak, but Howard can be every bit as good as Shaq was a 33 years old. Also, that Heat team didn't have a No. 3 even close to the caliber of Chandler Parsons, and I think the Rockets' supporting cast is better than that Heat team.


Like I said in my first post, I still do think this team can go pretty far, but I need to see a real starting PF via an Asik trade or some other move or trade.
It's way too early to assume that the Rockets don't have a starting caliber PF on the roster. As you already said, Jones and D-Mo are extremely young, and there's no telling what kind of NBA players they become. If they don't develop soon, though, I could see Asik getting dealt at the trade deadline for a starting PF.


I dont care how often they play together, its still the point of discussion. Dwight can defend ANY big.
I'm not arguing that. I agree with you. But what I'm saying is that it's totally a moot point if Dwight doesn't play that many minutes at PF in the first place. And as of right now, there's on reason to believe he'll be playing the position more than just a few minutes a game.

Clippersfan86
10-15-2013, 04:03 PM
Mightyboss tone I do respect you and your fair approach on the Rockets, just thought I'd throw it out there. I agree 99 percent of the time with your posts and your expectations and logic are usually spot on and respectable. So I want Rockets fans to know that, I can't speak for others... but I'm not bashing the team. I just strongly believe that IF the Rockets try to pair Dwight+Asik for extended minutes, they will be exposed.

As Boss said though, it's very unlikely to be for a few minutes at a time (which is fine obviously). I also strongly feel Asik will still be moved before the deadline, so the argument is really pointless in my POV. The only reason I've been persistent on this matter is because I'm tired of reading ignorant posts on how dominant this duo would be, while neglecting the obvious shortcomings of the pairing. Or Chronz and Ballhog saying that 7 years later and 40 pounds heavier and post back surgery at the start of a decline... Dwight can still guard any PF, consistently. I'll have to call ******** on that claim every single time, and I will. Tell me Dwight is the best bigman when healthy or the best center I can buy in, but he's not a PF anymore, PERIOD.

Chronz
10-15-2013, 04:05 PM
Chronz I don't think it's fair or true to say anybody is saying they will be downright bad offensively OR defensively. I know for me what I'm saying is they will be extremely unbalanced. Very elite on both ends in some ways, very exposed in other ways. Interior offense+defense should be elite between the pair but no other team will have the same deficiency they will on the perimeter on either end of the floor. Just like no team will score well in the paint against them, or be able to stop them in the paint.
Why would Dwight be a downgrade defensively on the likes of Pat Patterson and that Morris guy when they played alongside Asik? Why were you questioning Dwights defense in LA (something about PF's being defended by PF's)? Is Dwight suppose to lose the ability to defend guys like LMA just because the name of the position they played will be different?

You really think Dwight+Asik will be dominant offensively? That would surprise me, I dont see them meshing well at all on that end. But defensively? Im not seeing why it would be a problem, given how inferior defenders have fared alongside these 2 in the past.

beasted86
10-15-2013, 04:07 PM
Im only concerned with their defensive success. If you feel the duo will fail to mesh to the point where their defense cant offset their offensive clashing and in sum, be a net negative for the team, then fine. But its quite a reach to say BOTH their offense and defense will clash, that would result in a FAR worse scenario than the 50/50 proposition Im expecting.

But that is exactly what I believe. Their defense will clash because neither of them are used to defending on the perimeter, nor defending the pick and roll the way PFs defend it. I also don't think their lateral quickness is as good as you think.

I also think the team will be terrible in transition crossmatching due to Howard and Asik on the floor together.

Clippersfan86
10-15-2013, 04:11 PM
Why would Dwight be a downgrade defensively on the likes of Pat Patterson and that Morris guy when they played alongside Asik? Why were you questioning Dwights defense in LA (something about PF's being defended by PF's)? Is Dwight suppose to lose the ability to defend guys like LMA just because the name of the position they played will be different?

You really think Dwight+Asik will be dominant offensively? That would surprise me, I dont see them meshing well at all on that end. But defensively? Im not seeing why it would be a problem, given how inferior defenders have fared alongside these 2 in the past.

Dominant in the aspect I mentioned which is scoring in the paint and drawing free throws. They will have glaring flaws AND strengths on both ends of the floor, very little balance or synergy, especially offensively. How often has Dwight guarded star PF's for the duration of games? Every time I watch him he seems to be guarding the center, even if the PF is the better player. For example every time we play a Dwight team the last few years with Blake, Dwight spent very little time guarding Blake.

The one time they did (Blake's rookie year, Dwight in Orlando if I recall)... Blake got the best of him on both ends and although we lost in OT, Blake won the individual battle during the OT period when they started guarding each other. He got 3 or 4 straight 1 on 1 stops on Dwight and scored a couple buckets on him. I'm trying to figure out how often he's guarding star PF's and how successful he's been. Starting with his 3rd season when I think he moved to full time center and bulked up.

Chronz
10-15-2013, 04:13 PM
Dwight can still guard any PF, consistently. I'll have to call ******** on that claim every single time, and I will. Tell me Dwight is the best bigman when healthy or the best center I can buy in, but he's not a PF anymore, PERIOD.
Yeah but what are you basing it on? Can you provide ANY sort of analytical comp? Why wouldn't he be able to defend PF's again? All you've mentioned is that hes not as young as he used to be, but that doesn't change the fact that hes STILL more athletic than the majority of the league at that position. If he were 2-3 years younger then my expectation wouldn't simply be that he and Asik would form a great defensive pairing, it would be that they form a damn near HISTORIC defensive tandem. Instead, its more likely that they remain among the best duos in their respective league.

Are guys like Love, Blake, Z-Bo, Lee, Dirk, Pau, Melo, Bosh, West, etc... all better defensive options than Dwight, despite the majority of the league being less athletic overall in comparison? Tell me, what makes Z-Bo so much better at defending at the position despite being older, fatter, slower, and having no lift? Why point out that Dwight isn't the youngster he used to be when the fact STILL remains, hes more athletic than the majority of PF's in the league.

You make no sense.

mightybosstone
10-15-2013, 04:20 PM
Mightyboss tone I do respect you and your fair approach on the Rockets, just thought I'd throw it out there. I agree 99 percent of the time with your posts and your expectations and logic are usually spot on and respectable. So I want Rockets fans to know that, I can't speak for others... but I'm not bashing the team. I just strongly believe that IF the Rockets try to pair Dwight+Asik for extended minutes, they will be exposed.

As Boss said though, it's very unlikely to be for a few minutes at a time (which is fine obviously). I also strongly feel Asik will still be moved before the deadline, so the argument is really pointless in my POV. The only reason I've been persistent on this matter is because I'm tired of reading ignorant posts on how dominant this duo would be, while neglecting the obvious shortcomings of the pairing. Or Chronz and Ballhog saying that 7 years later and 40 pounds heavier and post back surgery at the start of a decline... Dwight can still guard any PF, consistently. I'll have to call ******** on that claim every single time, and I will. Tell me Dwight is the best bigman when healthy or the best center I can buy in, but he's not a PF anymore, PERIOD.

I appreciate the first half of this post, but I disagree with the second half. I don't think Dwight will get substantial minutes at the 4, but if he did, I have no concern whatsoever that he could keep up with any opposing 4 in the league for a couple of reasons. First off, if he was on the floor at PF, then Asik would be in the paint as the 5. If that's the case, Dwight doesn't have to focus on guarding the paint and helping on every play and could focus solely on one-on-one matchups against the opposing PF, whether it's in the post or 20 feet from the basket.

Secondly, even if Dwight only has 80% of his athleticism left, he's still more athletic than 95% of the PFs in the league. He's lengthy, he's strong, he has a nose blocks and steals and no opposing 4 is going to blow by him. If you're asking him just to stop one opposing player rather than being the defensive anchor, he's going to do that, and he'll do it better than any other defensive big in the NBA.

beasted86
10-15-2013, 04:21 PM
First off, I don't even think the Rockets are likely to make the championship this season. I think they're probably 1-2 seasons away from making the Finals. That being said, let's not pretend that most Finals teams are perfect. In fact, most champions have 1-2 below average players on their starting rosters. Chalmers and Battier for Miami, Kidd and Stevenson for Dallas, Fisher and MWP/Ariza for LA, etc.
I understand and agree with your point, but most of the teams you are talking about have better overall starters and depth.



I think you mean the 05-06 Heat team. I'll agree that Harden has not yet reached the level of Wade at his peak, but Howard can be every bit as good as Shaq was a 33 years old. Also, that Heat team didn't have a No. 3 even close to the caliber of Chandler Parsons, and I think the Rockets' supporting cast is better than that Heat team.
No, man.... clearly 04-05. The 05-06 team had so many proven vets and role players. I also think you are way overrating Parsons with this 'not even close' nonsense. I'd take Eddie Jones in 04-05 over Parsons, and even Walker and White Chocolate in 05-06. These were guys who could create their own shot and get to the FT line better than Parson, and I value that more in a 3rd option. Too many time I see these efficient shooter types disappear in the playoffs because they can't get to the line or create something from nothing.


It's way too early to assume that the Rockets don't have a starting caliber PF on the roster. As you already said, Jones and D-Mo are extremely young, and there's no telling what kind of NBA players they become. If they don't develop soon, though, I could see Asik getting dealt at the trade deadline for a starting PF.


I'm not arguing that. I agree with you. But what I'm saying is that it's totally a moot point if Dwight doesn't play that many minutes at PF in the first place. And as of right now, there's on reason to believe he'll be playing the position more than just a few minutes a game.
Well its just my opinion. I don't see a starting PF on the team. I'm actually hoping Terrence Jones proves me wrong and fits like a nice Brandon Bass type, but I don't see it.

mightybosstone
10-15-2013, 04:26 PM
One other point I'd like to make about this PF situation is that we've talked a lot about Jones, Motiejunas and Dwight, but what about Casspi? Morey has loved the guy since he first got into the league, and if you look at the guy who technically started at PF the second half of last season, it wasn't a traditional 4. It was Delfino.

Now Casspi has not been great in the past, but he's been absolutely incredibly in the preseason, and he's played nearly all of his minutes as a stretch 4. He's not a good defender, and he's a streaky shooter, but he's always rebounded really well for a combo forward and even a 33% 3-point shooter at the 4 spot poses a problem for opposing defense. Motiejunas and Jones have both had their moments in the preseason, but Casspi has outplayed both of them, and I wouldn't rule him out because of his versatility and chemistry in the same frontcourt with Dwight.

Only time will tell at this point, but I do think the competition at PF is wide open, and I think the Rockets will get solid production at the position regardless of who starts there.

mightybosstone
10-15-2013, 04:34 PM
I understand and agree with your point, but most of the teams you are talking about have better overall starters and depth.
The Rockets have one of their deepest teams I've seen in years. With Lin and Asik coming off the bench, and a slew of solid role players, I don't think depth will be an issue for this team.


No, man.... clearly 04-05. The 05-06 team had so many proven vets and role players. I also think you are way overrating Parsons with this 'not even close' nonsense. I'd take Eddie Jones in 04-05 over Parsons, and even Walker and White Chocolate in 05-06. These were guys who could create their own shot and get to the FT line better than Parson, and I value that more in a 3rd option. Too many time I see these efficient shooter types disappear in the playoffs because they can't get to the line or create something from nothing.
Antoine Walker was a piece of ****, one of the least efficient scorers in the history of the NBA. I wouldn't want him on my team as a No. 5 or 6 guy, much less as my No. 3. Parsons crushes him in every possible way aside from rebounding. And your point about free throws was a bad one, because Parsons got to the line more last season than Walker or Williams did in 05-06. Parsons is also just a better, more efficient player than Jones was in 04-05.

I don't know what parameters you use to judge players, but you're dead wrong about Parsons. I'm thinking you didn't watch many Rockets games last season, because Parsons has become a very good, very versatile basketball player who makes for an ideal No. 3 option for a contending team.


Well its just my opinion. I don't see a starting PF on the team. I'm actually hoping Terrence Jones proves me wrong and fits like a nice Brandon Bass type, but I don't see it.
Jones has a much higher ceiling than Bass. He's not the defender Bass is, but he's superior in terms of scoring and on the glass. I don't know what kind of player Jones will be, but I certainly like what I've seen out of him so far in his young career.

Chronz
10-15-2013, 04:35 PM
Dominant in the aspect I mentioned which is scoring in the paint and drawing free throws.
Yea but Im asking you about their OVERALL effectiveness. Offense then Defense. You cant possibly think Dwight+Asik are a good pairing offensively, surely they are a worse pairing on that end than they will be on defense. Right?



How often has Dwight guarded star PF's for the duration of games? Every time I watch him he seems to be guarding the center, even if the PF is the better player. For example every time we play a Dwight team the last few years with Blake, Dwight spent very little time guarding Blake.
Well obviously, the Lakers were surrounded by **** defenders, they needed Dwight to anchor the team and make up for lapses.


Blake got the best of him on both ends and although we lost in OT, Blake won the individual battle during the OT period when they started guarding each other. He got 3 or 4 straight 1 on 1 stops on Dwight and scored a couple buckets on him.
Cool. I remember when Dwight locked up Dirk and LMA among others (the kind of players that gave Blake trouble) whilst still supplying elite help (unlike rookie Blake who struggled in every facet of defense). What matters is the end sum. So I wont buy the notion that the individual battle was won how you portray, when it comes to bigmen, I value help defense more than just 1 on 1 defense.


I'm trying to figure out how often he's guarding star PF's and how successful he's been.
Yea that would be a good starting point before saying he would utterly fail at the proposition.


Starting with his 3rd season when I think he moved to full time center and bulked up.

If Battie or Kato were around, then he was primarily the PF. Not sure when the switch happened, all I know is that Dwight was NEVER a liability against any bigman once he became a DPOY caliber big. Hell he used to bottle up guards on switches.

D-Leethal
10-15-2013, 04:37 PM
Im not asking Dwight to defend PG's here.



Can Kevin Love? Can Dirk? Why do natural PF's like Blake struggle defending guys like Z-Bo, LMA, Duncan while Dwight does a far better job? And why are people ignoring TEAM DEFENSE anyways? Is my teams defense suppose to compromised because Dwight is at the 4? Such an argument would imply that natural PF's would do a better job just by virtue of playing their natural position. Im sorry, I dont give a **** where you play Dwight, guys like Love aren't suddenly going to become superior defenders. If its a problem for Houston, its going to be a problem for most of the league. Z-Bo sure as hell isn't any better at defending from the 4 position than Dwight is.


Hes done it in the past, in fact, the very last play he made before he went out with back problems for Orlando was stopping an Iggy isolation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5xKzEZHvHo

Now that was just 2 years ago and while playing with back problems, Im not expecting him to be that mobile anymore, but we aren't talking about swings and PG's here, we are talking about players who are usually less athletic than he is, why would he struggle any more than guys like Booz, Bosh, Melo when playing the 4?

I dont know how often he has defended at the 4 spot since his back surgery but every facet of his defensive game improved as the season went along. At one point after the ASB, he meant about 15PTS to the Lakers defense. A ridiculous number and prolly a result of small sample size, but its still a great sign going forward.


I mean, who exactly are these players that Dwight will struggle with to the point where it harms his teams defense. Who are these clear defensive upgrades at the 4?


Why is Dwight being singled out, when hes a better defensive option than the majority of the league?

I think those guys are more equipped to guard those types of players than Dwight is even if they aren't good defenders. Dwight is a fish out of water 15 feet out, he will be guarding shooters instead of post up bigs, he will be guarding stretch 4s, pick and pop guys, he will be making tick tack fouls, he will be asked to guard more screens, he will be forced to switch onto guards more often by virtue of playing outside on the perimeter more often.

And not to mention, all of those guys thrive offensively at the 4 spot and they are comfortable playing 15+ feet out on offense, and I think its pretty damn logical/reasonable to suggest that usually translates to you being more comfortable guarding people out there. Dwight has zero skills out there, and I think that will affect his comfort level guarding people out there. Its out of his comfort zone to play out there, its not out of their comfort zones to play out there. And since all of those guys thrive offensively out there, you live with their defensive lapses.

Either way, I think theres a difference between being comfortable defending the perimeter while not thriving at doing so (like the guys you listed), compared to being completely out of your comfort zone out there while not thriving out there (like Dwight would). When you take players out of there comfort zone, thats when stupid mistakes start to occur, most frequent in the form of brainless tick tack fouls. Love and Blake might not be great defenders out there, but they have the requisite physical tools (smaller than Dwight, more capable of getting into a 1v1 low defensive stance and sliding there feet without giving an awkward hunchback like most 7 footers do) and are comfortable playing out there. They might get burned here and there but your not gonna see them look completely and utterly lost playing out there. Dwight doesn't have the requisite physical tools (most importantly lateral quickness and the ability to get into a low, perimeter defensive stance and make defensive slides) and he will never be comfortable playing out there.

Not to mention him and Asik playing side by side will absolutely murder your offense/spacing so is it really worth it?

And do you really think posting the video of him having a career-altering injury trying to defend out there on a switch is a good way to prove your argument? I've seen Stoudemire make game saving defensive plays on perimeter switches too - doesn't mean its a desirable scenario or a sustainable one. Do you honestly think Dwight looked comfortable out there in that clip even if he was able to get a stop on a 5 second switch?

Tyson Chandler is one of the more equipped 7 footers at guarding the perimeter on switches and getting in a low stance and sliding his feet (Knicks actually put him on Kyrie Irving last year on purpose for a final possession, Tyson stuck with him every step and blocked his game tying attempt). Tyson gets murdered by face up bigs like Bosh. It won't be much different for Dwight - except your asking him to do it every night.

D-Leethal
10-15-2013, 04:43 PM
From the way you guys are talking, its as if you guys think Dwight is Pau Gasol on defense. Pau+Dwight vs Asik+Dwight. Asik+Patterson vs Asik+Dwight. Which combos do you guys got your money on? LMFAO

Asik+Dwight would be one of the best defensive combo's in the league. Perfect? Nope, Dwight isn't the youngster he used to be, but thats not an argument against them succeeding defensively because Im not expecting perfection like I would if this were 2-3 years ago. But Dwight has definitely earned the benefit of the doubt given how inferior combinations have fared.


Im tired of these generalities tho, can someone plz answer the questions above or show me these far superior defenders at the 4, the superior combinations, better yet, show me a team you guys think would be a nightmare for Dwight+Asik to defend (because the Lakers DID play Dwight as a 4man whenever it was in their best interest) whatever. SHOW ME ANYTHING.

I do think a Dwight-Patterson or Asik-Patterson would do better defensively than Asik-Dwight. Patterson might not be a better defender than Dwight or Asik, but he's more equipped and more comfortable guarding the perimeter and making perimeter rotations and allows the DPOY to protect the paint where he thrives.

By playing Dwight at the 4, he is no longer a DPOY caliber defender because your changing the mojo he used to win those DPOY awards, your taking away from his bread and butter. Your subtracting from his effectiveness and once you do that, he's really no better than Patterson and its worse for your team defense and team rotations because you have a guy who has never been asked to close out on shooters and make perimeter rotations to do it successfully within a team defensive concept.

Dwight is a DPOY in the paint playing Center. He's not a DPOY at the 4 playing a completely different brand of defensive basketball.

And you should really leave the silly LMFAO's and mocking ebonics crap at the door. It ain't cute bro and it shows your not too confident in the weight of your argument.

D-Leethal
10-15-2013, 04:50 PM
You can't ignore how made shots and quality offense effects your defense either. Just like defense can fuel your offense, it also happens in reverse. Its exponentially easier to get back and set your half court defense after a made bucket when the other team needs to inbound. Asik and Dwight would murder the spacing that the Rockets pick and roll, drive and kick + 3 ball game needs to thrive, it would be a brick fest and Dwight/Asik would consistently get left in the dust in transition defense.

Chronz
10-15-2013, 04:52 PM
Edited my post C-fan, it was Blakes 2nd year where he went into OT vs Dwight.

D-Leethal
10-15-2013, 04:55 PM
Dwight would be a walking tick-tack touch foul and rack up fouls by the dozen if you ask him to guard the perimeter on a nightly basis - even if your only asking him to do it for 15 minutes a night.

beasted86
10-15-2013, 05:01 PM
The Rockets have one of their deepest teams I've seen in years. With Lin and Asik coming off the bench, and a slew of solid role players, I don't think depth will be an issue for this team.


Antoine Walker was a piece of ****, one of the least efficient scorers in the history of the NBA. I wouldn't want him on my team as a No. 5 or 6 guy, much less as my No. 3. Parsons crushes him in every possible way aside from rebounding. And your point about free throws was a bad one, because Parsons got to the line more last season than Walker or Williams did in 05-06. Parsons is also just a better, more efficient player than Jones was in 04-05.

I don't know what parameters you use to judge players, but you're dead wrong about Parsons. I'm thinking you didn't watch many Rockets games last season, because Parsons has become a very good, very versatile basketball player who makes for an ideal No. 3 option for a contending team.

No, son. Parson took nearly half of his shots from behind the 3PT line, and was assisted on 73% of his FGs. He is the definition of a guy who didn't create his own shots last season. And we'll just agree to disagree about comparing him to those HEAT players, because you are comparing him as probably the 2nd option on the Rockets last year to 3rd-4th options playing behind two mega usage players in Wade and Shaq.


Jones has a much higher ceiling than Bass. He's not the defender Bass is, but he's superior in terms of scoring and on the glass. I don't know what kind of player Jones will be, but I certainly like what I've seen out of him so far in his young career.

Bass put up better numbers than Jones in college for whatever that is worth... probably not much. Jones does have the range, but I think his shooting mechanics look poor, and he hasn't been very efficient with his jumper from what I know of his college days. Bass put in a lot of work to be able to be a viable option to stay on the court next to Howard.

Chronz
10-15-2013, 05:11 PM
I think those guys are more equipped to guard those types of players than Dwight is even if they aren't good defenders. Dwight is a fish out of water 15 feet out, he will be guarding shooters instead of post up bigs, he will be guarding stretch 4s, pick and pop guys, he will be making tick tack fouls, he will be asked to guard more screens, he will be forced to switch onto guards more often by virtue of playing outside on the perimeter more often.
WOW...... You actually believe Love is a better defender at the 4 than Dwight? Even if we completely neglect team defense, I cant see your point. Why is Dwight a fish out of water when hes more mobile than the players you would rather have out there?


And not to mention, all of those guys thrive offensively at the 4 spot and they are comfortable playing 15+ feet out on offense, and I think its pretty damn logical/reasonable to suggest that usually translates to you being more comfortable guarding people out there.
Sounds unreasonable to me. You're correlating offensive skill with defensive comfort now. What skill did Bruce Bowen have with the ball? Or in the post? Why was he such a good defender despite no semblance of offensive skill, save for the corner 3..... Tony Allen? Ben Wallace had ZERO skill offensively. Not seeing why offensive skill would dictate defensive success, that would mean if your good on one end, you would be good on the other end, yet the NBA is filled with 1 sided players. Maybe I misunderstood you here because Im completely lost right now.


Dwight has zero skills out there, and I think that will affect his comfort level guarding people out there.
Why was that never a problem in the past? Why was he capable of bottling up the likes of Dirk (during his prime mind you)? I guess thats only 1 player but it sticks out as he was the preeminent stretch-4 with a diverse skillset.


Its out of his comfort zone to play out there, its not out of their comfort zones to play out there. And since all of those guys thrive offensively out there, you live with their defensive lapses.
Yea but Im only talking about the D. I fully agree that it should be a mess on O.


Either way, I think theres a difference between being comfortable defending the perimeter while not thriving at doing so (like the guys you listed), compared to being completely out of your comfort zone out there while not thriving out there (like Dwight would).
Whats the difference? Why would he go from being able to check many of the same players hes already defended in the past, to being unable to do so by a simple change of position?


When you take players out of there comfort zone, thats when stupid mistakes start to occur, most frequent in the form of brainless tick tack fouls. Love and Blake might not be great defenders out there, but they have the requisite physical tools (smaller than Dwight, more capable of getting into a 1v1 low defensive stance and sliding there feet without giving an awkward hunchback like most 7 footers do) and are comfortable playing out there. They might get burned here and there but your not gonna see them look completely and utterly lost playing out there. Dwight doesn't have the requisite physical tools (most importantly lateral quickness and the ability to get into a low, perimeter defensive stance and make defensive slides) and he will never be comfortable playing out there.
Dwight is literally 1 inch taller than Blake and FAR longer with much better timing. I dont believe any of this, as a Clippers fan, Ive ALREADY seen Blake struggle against defenders that Dwight has locked up. Are you seriously saying Love is quicker laterally than Dwight? Good god man I've never been so disgusted by a post before. Is that why he provides so little help defense? Whats next, Z-Bo jumps higher than Blake?


Not to mention him and Asik playing side by side will absolutely murder your offense/spacing so is it really worth it?
Not if they play as badly as you seem to think on defense.


And do you really think posting the video of him having a career-altering injury trying to defend out there on a switch is a good way to prove your argument?
Yes. Its the kind of play he made on a routine basis back then. That he did it while dealing with back problems is very impressive and shows you the kind of agility he had. Thats not him anymore, but we aren't talking about him defending swings either.



I've seen Stoudemire make game saving defensive plays on perimeter switches too - doesn't mean its a desirable scenario or a sustainable one.
Point taken about isolated incidents, I just didn't realize you felt it was such a reach to realize that Dwight made those plays on a routine basis before the straw that broke the cammels back. They didn't happen so much in LA but you could see the improvement in his agility with every passing month. Im confident hes better equipped to deal with PF's than the likes of Z-Bo/Love/Blake etc...


Do you honestly think Dwight looked comfortable out there in that clip even if he was able to get a stop on a 5 second switch?
He was dealing with major back spasms before the surgery, so he wasn't as comfortable as he usually is, and yet despite this, was able to stay in front of a perimeter player , like he had done so during each and every DPOY campaign.


Tyson Chandler is one of the more equipped 7 footers at guarding the perimeter on switches and getting in a low stance and sliding his feet (Knicks actually put him on Kyrie Irving last year on purpose for a final possession, Tyson stuck with him every step and blocked his game tying attempt). Tyson gets murdered by face up bigs like Bosh. It won't be much different for Dwight - except your asking him to do it every night.
Whos asking it? I dont know how often the 2 will be paired together, its likely that their offense clash so much that the defensive payoff isn't worth it. That doesn't change the fact that hes a better defender at ANY position than Pat Patterson/Morris were.

I honestly get the impression you didn't see much of Dwight over the years.

Chronz
10-15-2013, 05:26 PM
I do think a Dwight-Patterson or Asik-Patterson would do better defensively than Asik-Dwight. Patterson might not be a better defender than Dwight or Asik, but he's more equipped and more comfortable guarding the perimeter and making perimeter rotations and allows the DPOY to protect the paint where he thrives.
Holy **** man. Patterson was a horrible on the boards and he wasn't anything special in terms of rotating, Im guessing you think rebounding is irrelevant to defense tho. OK so where does this end, which PF is Dwight finally better than defensively, Pau? Are there zero PF's?


By playing Dwight at the 4, he is no longer a DPOY caliber defender because your changing the mojo he used to win those DPOY awards, your taking away from his bread and butter. Your subtracting from his effectiveness and once you do that, he's really no better than Patterson and its worse for your team defense and team rotations because you have a guy who has never been asked to close out on shooters and make perimeter rotations to do it successfully within a team defensive concept.
It will mark the first time in history that a mobile DPOY big became a liability the likes of which liabilities like Patterson are considered superior. And no, he won DPOY because he was capable of doing EVERYTHING required of a bigman on defense. He did whatever the team asked of him, be it locking up high profile PF's like Dirk, or anchoring his teams defense. He grew up a PF playing alongside Battie, so this concept isn't as new as you claim.


Dwight is a DPOY in the paint playing Center. He's not a DPOY at the 4 playing a completely different brand of defensive basketball.
Can you give me a rundown of the comparable examples that have enlightened you to this stance? Im not expecting a DPOY at the 4 (even Ben Wallace was slightly worse as a PF than he was a C) but its downright laughable to claim he becomes a liability due to such a minor difference in his position, considering suppressing his responsibilities from a team aspect should allow him to focus more on his man.

HoopsMachine
10-15-2013, 05:28 PM
At best WCF at worst Semi's. I still like the Warriors, Spurs, Clippers, and Thunder over them.

D-Leethal
10-15-2013, 05:33 PM
WOW...... You actually believe Love is a better defender at the 4 than Dwight? Even if we completely neglect team defense, I cant see your point. Why is Dwight a fish out of water when hes more mobile than the players you would rather have out there?

Where did I say that? I said they are more equipped to guard out there within a team defensive concept. They are more comfortable playing out there, making rotations out there etc. I don't think he is more mobile then them when it comes to rotations, closing out, and short bursts. I do think he would beat them in a full court sprint but thats not what were talking about is it.



Sounds unreasonable to me. You're correlating offensive skill with defensive comfort now. What skill did Bruce Bowen have with the ball? Or in the post? Why was he such a good defender despite no semblance of offensive skill, save for the corner 3..... Tony Allen? Ben Wallace had ZERO skill offensively. Not seeing why offensive skill would dictate defensive success, that would mean if your good on one end, you would be good on the other end, yet the NBA is filled with 1 sided players. Maybe I misunderstood you here because Im completely lost right now.

I never once mentioned skill. I mentioned comfort level - those guys are all star perimeter offensive players - its not different if your a scrub perimeter player - the point is that your used to and more comfortable playing 15 feet from the basket on both ends of the floor. I don't even think thats debatable to be honest - its pretty much common sense logic.


Why was that never a problem in the past? Why was he capable of bottling up the likes of Dirk (during his prime mind you)? I guess thats only 1 player but it sticks out as he was the preeminent stretch-4 with a diverse skillset.

I would have to watch game film of Dwight bottling up Dirk to believe that for one second. But I have also seen Amare Stoudemire bottle up Dirk for a game (this actually did happen during STATs first stint in NY, he basically called it before the game and said he wanted to shut down Dirk and somehow did as good a job as one could do) - doesn't mean I'm asking him to defend 4s (which is why we usually have Tyson do it when they are on the floor together).


Whats the difference? Why would he go from being able to check many of the same players hes already defended in the past, to being unable to do so by a simple change of position?

Gonna have to give me more than that to buy what your selling - who are these players? When did he defend them for entire games? Who was playing the 5 behind Dwight? How often were they sending doubles and forcing the ball out of their hands? How often were they actually matched up in 1 on 1 scenarios?


Dwight is literally 1 inch taller than Blake and FAR longer with much better timing. I dont believe any of this, as a Clippers fan, Ive ALREADY seen Blake struggle against defenders that Dwight has locked up. Are you seriously saying Love is quicker laterally than Dwight? Good god man I've never been so disgusted by a post before. Is that why he provides so little help defense? Whats next, Z-Bo jumps higher than Blake?

Not necessarily quicker, but I do think he is physically more capable to do it better, without constant reaching and can do it less awkward than Dwight. I also think Love/Blake are more adept at making quicker first-step short bursts required for change of direction and perimeter rotations. Its not all about height, Dwight is a monster. An F150 is going to make quick sharp turns better than an F350, despite being the same "height" and despite both of them being pretty crappy at it. The F350 might take it down in a full blown 5 mile race though.


Not if they play as badly as you seem to think on defense.

I addressed this in an prior post, but I think the brickfest that will occur on offense is going to make it awfully difficult for them to set up their half court defense. If were eliminating transition basketball, I think they would hold down the fort defensively (although they would still struggle with rotations - I think they would adequately get enough stops - I think if you include transition defense they would be bad to awful defensively).


Yes. Its the kind of play he made on a routine basis back then. That he did it while dealing with back problems is very impressive and shows you the kind of agility he had. Thats not him anymore, but we aren't talking about him defending swings either.

Taking a page out of your book - LMFAO. Routine as in what? Three times a game? Four? Once in a blue moon? Many players can do many things when they are only asked to do it once in a blue moon - sustainability is determined by frequency and its not a constant steady slope, and the trajectory eventually flattens.


Point taken about isolated incidents, I just didn't realize you felt it was such a reach to realize that Dwight made those plays on a routine basis before the straw that broke the cammels back. They didn't happen so much in LA but you could see the improvement in his agility with every passing month. Im confident hes better equipped to deal with PF's than the likes of Z-Bo/Love/Blake etc...

He was dealing with major back spasms before the surgery, so he wasn't as comfortable as he usually is, and yet despite this, was able to stay in front of a perimeter player , like he had done so during each and every DPOY campaign.

Whos asking it? I dont know how often the 2 will be paired together, its likely that their offense clash so much that the defensive payoff isn't worth it. That doesn't change the fact that hes a better defender at ANY position than Pat Patterson/Morris were.

Tyson Chandler makes them on a routine basis too - but it doesn't mean he's comfortable doing it, and it doesn't mean its sustainable if it becomes a possession-by-possession occurrence. You see that when he struggles guarding a guy like Bosh while he can shut down guys like Bynum and Dwight, regardless if he can make a ton of defensive stops on switches throughout your average NBA game.


I honestly get the impression you didn't see much of Dwight over the years.

If that impression is the crux of your argument and basis for your opinion, "Dwight did that all the time back in the day, bro", we will have to agree to disagree. Regardless if he can get perimeter stops on switches throughout an NBA game - or had a good defensive effort against a 4 in the past - its not sustainable for an NBA season. Again, frequency determines sustainability, minor frequency of an act is easy to sustain, major frequency of an act is difficult to sustain. As frequency goes up, the sustainability slope eventually flattens. Dwight is a fish out of water on both ends when he is 15 feet out and teams will isolate him out there, they will force switches on him out there, and they will make him pay for trying to play out there. End result - he will be fouled out in 12 mins.

Chronz
10-15-2013, 05:37 PM
Dwight would be a walking tick-tack touch foul and rack up fouls by the dozen if you ask him to guard the perimeter on a nightly basis - even if your only asking him to do it for 15 minutes a night.
Heres the thing, not every PF plays on the perimeter and not every PF is going to be able to put it on the floor. There will be instances when Dwight cant play PF and instances where he can conceivably play most of the game. Like if hes facing an offensive zero, he can get away with alot of roaming despite that player technically being the 4. I dont see him spending any time on someone like Melo for instance, but if Bargs is out there, I can see Dwight locking him up worse than he did Dirk. This past season I remember he and Pau doing some switching depending on the matchup. The Lakers didn't have the luxury of another rim protector so they were limited in what they could do, but IIRC in a games like against the Kings, Dwight checked Chuck Hayes and their other small ball 4's while Pau primarily defended the post against Boogie. Dwight was EVERYWHERE that game, roaming all over the floor and helping Pau out when Boogie made a predictable move that he would stuff. That kind of **** was not happening during the beginning of the year, Dwight has shown me enough mobility that I wont put slow PF's like Z-Bo/Love ahead of him. Double for anemic rebounders like Pat.

D-Leethal
10-15-2013, 06:03 PM
Holy **** man. Patterson was a horrible on the boards and he wasn't anything special in terms of rotating, Im guessing you think rebounding is irrelevant to defense tho. OK so where does this end, which PF is Dwight finally better than defensively, Pau? Are there zero PF's?


It will mark the first time in history that a mobile DPOY big became a liability the likes of which liabilities like Patterson are considered superior. And no, he won DPOY because he was capable of doing EVERYTHING required of a bigman on defense. He did whatever the team asked of him, be it locking up high profile PF's like Dirk, or anchoring his teams defense. He grew up a PF playing alongside Battie, so this concept isn't as new as you claim.


Can you give me a rundown of the comparable examples that have enlightened you to this stance? Im not expecting a DPOY at the 4 (even Ben Wallace was slightly worse as a PF than he was a C) but its downright laughable to claim he becomes a liability due to such a minor difference in his position, considering suppressing his responsibilities from a team aspect should allow him to focus more on his man.

Ben Wallace is a natural PF who has the strength to play C. Dwight is the most physically imposing C in the league - he is no PF - especially in today's hybrid 4 league. I have never seen Dwight make a perimeter defensive slide or quick change in direction in my life without looking like a fish out of water - your vid clip earlier just reinforced that for me. Even if he does it quicker than a guy like Love, its not natural, its not effective, its not comfortable and he reaches all over the place like most fish-out-of-water Cs do to make up for the fact that he is completely lost out there.

18 year old skinny Dwight is completely irrelevant to this conversation.

And even if guys like Pau, Love and Patterson aren't the quickest, aren't the most athletic, and aren't good defenders, they have an understanding of how to defend out there, they know how to rotate out there, they know when to rotate out there, they know how to space themselves appropriately out there. Playing out there is part of their comfort zone, it is not part of Dwights and that seeps out of the screen in any clip you can find of him defending out there. That will lead to missed rotations, stupid fouls, falling for shooters pump fakes, playing tight when you should sag off, sagging off when you should play tight.

Having the comfort level out there, knowing how to position yourself out there, will make up for crappy individual defenders within a team defensive concept. It will allow worse defenders to contribute to a greater defense over a guy like Dwight who has no clue what to do out there. But again, the overall defense would all depend on the rest of the teammates around them anyway.

I don't think its as simple as "Dwight is a better defender than Patterson", "Dwight is more athletic than Love" or "Dwight is more mobile than Pau" but it seems you like to look at the game in simple 1v1 terms and ignore the "little things" and team synergy that make basketball so great. Confidence, comfort, positioning, perimeter IQ, perimeter rotations, quick changes of direction, transition defense are the things that would make a Patterson/Dwight combo succeed over a Dwight/Asik combo.

Dwight can be more mobile, he can be more athletic, he can be a better defender, and he can still be less equipped to contribute to a better team defense compared to a guy who is less mobile, less athletic, not as quick but understands how to play the position, how to play 15 feet away from the basket, who is not used to ALWAYS having the baseline behind you and ALL of the action in front of you as the last line of defense.

Its a different world out there in today's NBA, and I think even you know that it is FAR from "a minor change in position" from C to PF.

Chronz
10-15-2013, 06:03 PM
Where did I say that? I said they are more equipped to guard out there within a team defensive concept. They are more comfortable playing out there, making rotations out there etc. I don't think he is more mobile then them when it comes to rotations, closing out, and short bursts. I do think he would beat them in a full court sprint but thats not what were talking about is it.
I know what you said, I cant believe you would say that. Within a team defensive concept, Love is an average at best defender. If Love were more mobile as you claim, shouldn't he be more active in his teams defensive concept? Instead we see that his team is often better on that end without him. I mean can you provide any clips of him keeping up with guards? You're talking about a guy who needed his slow footed center to defend Blake Griffin. Both of them are slow IMO, definitely not up to sniff with Dwight.


I never once mentioned skill. I mentioned comfort level - those guys are all star perimeter offensive players - its not different if your a scrub perimeter player - the point is that your used to and more comfortable playing 15 feet from the basket on both ends of the floor. I don't even think thats debatable to be honest - its pretty much common sense logic.
Now your confusing me, ok so instead of skill lets use comfort. What offensive comfort did Ben Wallace have and why was it so irrelevant in determining his effectiveness?



I would have to watch game film of Dwight bottling up Dirk to believe that for one second. But I have also seen Amare Stoudemire bottle up Dirk for a game (this actually did happen during STATs first stint in NY, he basically called it before the game and said he wanted to shut down Dirk and somehow did as good a job as one could do) - doesn't mean I'm asking him to defend 4s (which is why we usually have Tyson do it when they are on the floor together).
Thats what sucks, we can both point to isolated incidents and we have no specific stats on the subject. At least none I can inspect.




Gonna have to give me more than that to buy what your selling - who are these players? When did he defend them for entire games?
If I do, you're just gonna tell me you have to see these games.



Not necessarily quicker, but I do think he can physically do it better and less awkward than Dwight.
You specifically cited short bursts/quickness. There is no way Love is quicker than Dwight, if that were true he would do great on switches and be more active defensively, neither are true. If there is some other physical trait you feel Love has that allows him to defend PF's and play within a strong team defensive concept, plz tell me.


I also think Love/Blake are more adept at making quicker first-step short bursts required for change of direction and perimeter rotations. I
Also? You just got done telling me its not that they are necessarily quicker, yet the first thing you mention is quickness? Perimeter rotations? You do realize that was Blake's greatest weakness before this year right? Hes getting better but Love? Dude still sucks on defense in comparison to Blake.



its not all about height, Dwight is a monster.
I mentioned that because hes not that much of a monster in terms of height. He and Blake aren't that different in terms of raw height, where the profound difference comes is in length+timing.


I addressed this in an prior post, but I think the brickfest that will occur on offense is going to make it awfully difficult for them to set up their half court defense. If were eliminating transition basketball, I think they would hold down the fort defensively (although they would still struggle with rotations - I think they would adequately get enough stops - I think if you include transition defense they would be bad to awful defensively).
Interesting theory, though that depends entirely on the defensive system and how their philosophy on crashing the glass. Besides, as you admitted, Dwight is faster end to end so Im sure he can help their transition defense. Tho to your point, the Lakers transition defense was awful last year and you could argue it was a result of playing 2 centers, you have to take my word for it that it improved immensely once Dwight got in shape tho.




Taking a page out of your book - LMFAO.
I usually follow my llullz with more commentary. Imagine that, someone playing with a bad back was still able to check a swingman on the perimeter.



Tyson Chandler makes them on a routine basis too - but it doesn't mean he's comfortable doing it, and it doesn't mean its sustainable if it becomes a possession-by-possession occurrence. You see that when he guards a guy like Bosh regardless if he can make a ton of defensive stops on switches throughout your average

LOL wat? Chandler is better at keeping swings in front of him than most PF's in the league definitely FAR better at it than Love, why would I care if he LOOKS less comfortable at the job than others if hes doing a better job of it? Im not sure what you mean possession by possession.... are you telling me that PF/C cant guard smalls throughout the entirety of a game?


If that impression is the crux of your argument and basis for your opinion, "Dwight did that all the time back in the day, bro", we will have to agree to disagree.
Would it change anything if I showed you an endless loop of analyst that agree, Dwight was mobile enough to defend those kind of plays at a higher rate than typical bigmen?


Regardless if he can get perimeter stops on switches throughout an NBA game - or had a good defensive effort against a 4 in the past - its not sustainable for an NBA season. Anyone with two eyes and a working brain should see that pretty easily. Dwight is a fish out of water on both ends when he is 15 feet out and teams will isolate him out there, they will force switches on him out there, and they will make him pay for trying to play out there.
And he will still do a better job of it than the likes of Kevin Love, Patterson. While providing much better help as well.

Chronz
10-15-2013, 06:27 PM
Ben Wallace has the body to play PF.
So does Dwight, in fact he has the superior athleticism and frame.


He has the lateral quickness.
Even at age 34? LMFAO, PSD, where oldman Wallace is quicker than primetime Dwight.


I have never seen Dwight make a perimeter defensive slide or quick change in direction in my life without looking like a fish out of water - your vid clip earlier just reinforced that anymore.
Thats beyond ignorant. The vid clip showed him containing a swing despite dealing with nagging back issues. Funny how the announcers come to the conclusion that hes moving his feet and playing great defense and yet to you hes a fish out of water. I dont give a **** how comfortable you feel he looks, just how effective he is.

The announcers from that game go on to mention that what makes Dwight special is that he does these things regularly.



Even if he does it quicker than a guy like Love, its not natural, its not effective, its not comfortable and he reaches all over the place like most fish-out-of-water Cs do to make up for the fact that he is completely uncomfortable out there.
But it is MORE effective than Love and I dont buy that its not comfortable.


18 year old skinny Dwight is completely irrelevant to this conversation.
Good thing I never brought him up ....

Listen to yourself man, you actually believe a small change of position will make Dwight a lesser defender than Pau/Love, again if this were true, try again with explaining Ben Wallace. Comfort is subjective, results arent. And if faced against deciding between someone who looks comfortable vs someone who gets the job done, Im going to take the superior defender every time. I dont buy that the positions represent a drastic change for someone like Dwight, it may not be his natural position but I've NEVER seen a single comparable player go from DPOY to liability because of change in position. Ben Wallace was still a vital defender for the Cavs, hes made the transition between both spots many times, yes hes better at a Center, but Id like to see JUST 1 comparable example that has given you so much faith that its an entirely different proposition. Dwight is a defensive genius, Im never going to put clearly inferior players ahead of him just because you feel they are more comfortable. Thats absurd.

D-Leethal
10-15-2013, 06:37 PM
Put it this way - Dwight playing at the 4 will be a net negative for his team pretty much any time you employ it. Even if he can adequately defend as well as some guys like Love/Gasol who are skilled offensive stalwarts and make a huge positive impact playing the 4 on that end, playing him at the 4 next to Asik murders your offense, and teams will use that to make you guard in transition all day where you will rarely too often get to utilize your defensive twin towers in half court sets. On top of all that, the fact that he has zero comfort level playing 15 feet out means he is going to rack up a TON of stupid fouls in a league where foul trouble far too often dictates Ws and Ls.

Even if you were able to score efficiently, there are probably less than 10 teams left in this league where a twin tower frontline is something you actually want to run out there anyway. Its stupid as hell for many reasons (defensive issues are indeed one of them) to play Dwight next to Asik in your regular rotation close to 90% of the time. You want to do that during that 10%? Go right ahead...I'm still not doing it for my team.

Chronz
10-15-2013, 06:42 PM
Yes your point on transition defense is something I didn't consider, I just dont know how much of a factor that would be given that most possessions transpire in the half court and I feel like Dwight's recovered enough of his prior quickness/speed that he can get back but it might hurt his or Asik's offensive rebounding.

mightybosstone
10-15-2013, 06:48 PM
No, son. Parson took nearly half of his shots from behind the 3PT line, and was assisted on 73% of his FGs. He is the definition of a guy who didn't create his own shots last season.
While I agree that he gets a lot of his looks from open perimeter shots, if you watched the guy, you'd see he's more than capable at getting to the rim and creating for himself. He's also an exception playmaker, and runs the offense in a pinch. Stats don't do the guy justice, trust me. Also, he was the Rockets No. 1 offensive option quite often during the Thunder series.


And we'll just agree to disagree about comparing him to those HEAT players, because you are comparing him as probably the 2nd option on the Rockets last year to 3rd-4th options playing behind two mega usage players in Wade and Shaq.
I'm not wrong about Walker. He never posted a WS/48 over .094 or a TS% over 52%. He's probably one of the worst multi-All Star player in the history of the league. I do have a ton of respect for Eddie Jones' career, but he wasn't the same player at that point in his career. Williams was just a role playing PG. He doesn't deserve to spoken in the same discussion as Jones or Parsons.


Bass put up better numbers than Jones in college for whatever that is worth... probably not much. Jones does have the range, but I think his shooting mechanics look poor, and he hasn't been very efficient with his jumper from what I know of his college days. Bass put in a lot of work to be able to be a viable option to stay on the court next to Howard.
Better numbers on a worse, less stacked basketball team. You have to remember that Jones played on the same team with Anthony Davis, MKG and other NBA caliber players. And the verdict is still out on Jones, but his ceiling is still very high. Only time will tell.

b@llhog24
10-15-2013, 06:54 PM
Seriously, I'm still not seeing it. If you're telling me that Dwight may never recover to his Orlando days of impact and he wouldn't be able to keep up with 4 because he can't stay with them anymore, then I kinda believe that. But to tell me that he's never been able to guard the best offensive big that any team threw at him when healthy? You've gotta be kidding me. Lma, Bosh, Stat, and just about any premiere offensive big I've seen either get completely shut down from Dwight or contained to well below their seasonal averages. And no Rashard Lewis was not the reason for it.

Clippersfan86
10-15-2013, 06:55 PM
Yes your point on transition defense is something I didn't consider, I just dont know how much of a factor that would be given that most possessions transpire in the half court and I feel like Dwight's recovered enough of his prior quickness/speed that he can get back but it might hurt his or Asik's offensive rebounding.

I said something about this way earlier. Dwight is the last man up the floor every single time, usually crying about calls. He will be a non factor in transition D.

b@llhog24
10-15-2013, 06:59 PM
I said something about this way earlier. Dwight is the last man up the floor every single time, usually crying about calls. He will be a non factor in transition D.

I've literally NEVER heard anybody call a healthy Dwight lazy.

Clippersfan86
10-15-2013, 07:00 PM
Another guy I don't always agree with in D-Leethal and I agree with him on this entirely. I was actually going to bring a lot of his points up earlier but had to hit the gym and forgot. Mainly the point about PF's although not as good as Dwight in general defensively, are more adept at defending outside the paint because that's what they have to do on a game by game basis. I can't remember even 5 games where Dwight locked up a PF who didn't primarily play in the paint.

I don't see him guarding guys like Bosh, Love, LMA, Dirk, Zbo, Ibaka etc and others like this who have reliable jumpers and can pull him 20 feet from the basket. Although even if he for some reason DOES chase them around on the perimeter... the other team wins because they take the best defensive anchor in the game, out of the paint.

In other words.. there is ZERO benefit to playing Dwight at PF.

Chronz
10-15-2013, 07:00 PM
Listening to you guys talk, its as if you think Dwight Howard is as incapable of defending at the 4 as someone like Hibbert would be. You guys really underrate the mobility hes shown in the past and how easily he picked up defenders on switches. Maybe his play as a Laker has distorted that view, the guy had nerve problems all the way down to his leg but he used to be very capable of handling any one 1 on 1.

How come KG didn't become a liability when he switched to the 5? Why was Ben Wallace never a liability going in between positions throughout his career? The only way this doesn't work defensively is for the reasons mentioned about transition defense, but in the half court I dont see what the problem is. Fouls? Hes not going to be out there all game but I do expect both Asik and Dwight to be more aggressive defensively given that they have each other to rely on, foul trouble shouldn't be a reason not to throw Dwight out there as a 4 in certain lineups.

Again, its one thing to say he wont be a great defender, quite another to say Pau Gasol, a player who so visibly struggles as a 4 these days, is a better defender. They were on the same team last year and played in the same system, they would interchange assignments depending on what they needed. How can you say its so different for Dwight when he was raised as a PF?

b@llhog24
10-15-2013, 07:04 PM
Another guy I don't always agree with in D-Leethal and I agree with him on this entirely. I was actually going to bring a lot of his points up earlier but had to hit the gym and forgot. Mainly the point about PF's although not as good as Dwight in general defensively, are more adept at defending outside the paint because that's what they have to do on a game by game basis. I can't remember even 5 games where Dwight locked up a PF who didn't primarily play in the paint.

I don't see him guarding guys like Bosh, Love, LMA, Dirk, Zbo, Ibaka etc and others like this who have reliable jumpers and can pull him 20 feet from the basket. Although even if he for some reason DOES chase them around on the perimeter... the other team wins because they take the best defensive anchor in the game, out of the paint.

In other words.. there is ZERO benefit to playing Dwight at PF.

Blazer fan here, Dwight always guarded LMA.

Clippersfan86
10-15-2013, 07:05 PM
I've literally NEVER heard anybody call a healthy Dwight lazy.

Maybe it's not lazy and rather easily annoyed by refs? Even dating back to Orlando Dwight is the last man up the floor 8 out of 10 times due to crying to refs or just not sprinting back. If that's not lazy in your eyes, so be it. I think it's a combination of things. Bottom line is he's lazy in transition D.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5f6UCsz-Gs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srno_Ex-0Cs



Is he going to chase this? Or get out and chase Love and Dirk off the 3 point line in transition?

b@llhog24
10-15-2013, 07:06 PM
Mightyboss tone I do respect you and your fair approach on the Rockets, just thought I'd throw it out there. I agree 99 percent of the time with your posts and your expectations and logic are usually spot on and respectable. So I want Rockets fans to know that, I can't speak for others... but I'm not bashing the team. I just strongly believe that IF the Rockets try to pair Dwight+Asik for extended minutes, they will be exposed.

As Boss said though, it's very unlikely to be for a few minutes at a time (which is fine obviously). I also strongly feel Asik will still be moved before the deadline, so the argument is really pointless in my POV. The only reason I've been persistent on this matter is because I'm tired of reading ignorant posts on how dominant this duo would be, while neglecting the obvious shortcomings of the pairing. Or Chronz and Ballhog saying that 7 years later and 40 pounds heavier and post back surgery at the start of a decline... Dwight can still guard any PF, consistently. I'll have to call ******** on that claim every single time, and I will. Tell me Dwight is the best bigman when healthy or the best center I can buy in, but he's not a PF anymore, PERIOD.

I never said anything about rookie Dwight being a good defender, I'm saying he's develop some of those instincts as a rookie.

Clippersfan86
10-15-2013, 07:06 PM
Blazer fan here, Dwight always guarded LMA.

I said I don't see him doing it, as in a consistent, full time thing. I obviously haven't watched every game of Dwight's career, so I didn't say he never did it. Although I've also seen DeAndre Jordan demolish LMA and shut him down terribly last year and I'd never claim DJ can consistently guard PF's. Aldridge isn't particular quick or athletic, so maybe Dwight thrives better against him personally, don't think he's able to guard all PF's like Chronz suggested.

beasted86
10-15-2013, 07:10 PM
While I agree that he gets a lot of his looks from open perimeter shots, if you watched the guy, you'd see he's more than capable at getting to the rim and creating for himself. He's also an exception playmaker, and runs the offense in a pinch. Stats don't do the guy justice, trust me. Also, he was the Rockets No. 1 offensive option quite often during the Thunder series.


I'm not wrong about Walker. He never posted a WS/48 over .094 or a TS% over 52%. He's probably one of the worst multi-All Star player in the history of the league. I do have a ton of respect for Eddie Jones' career, but he wasn't the same player at that point in his career. Williams was just a role playing PG. He doesn't deserve to spoken in the same discussion as Jones or Parsons.

Well the stats don't lie. Parsons wasn't creating his shots. As I said I value a guy who can create for himself and others more than just a knock down shooter. You had Wade and Shaq using up 60% of the offense between 2 players, so comparing their scoring, passing and FT rate is kind of moot. The point is going into that season, all of those guys had a better AST% than Parsons and got to the line at a higher frequency, and they weren't 1st options prior to 05-06 either. They were just accepted playing a lesser role for the HEAT. Anyway, this is going off point. I think Parsons is a fine young player, just think you overrate him some.

The Rockets have a lot to figure out. Right now I have them a 2nd round exit against most of the top teams in the West. The other teams are more experienced and proven, and will have their chemistry from playing together.

But I cant rule out a Rasheed-type trade midseason using Asik that just gives them that perfect fit that they could ride to the Finals.

Chronz
10-15-2013, 07:10 PM
I said something about this way earlier. Dwight is the last man up the floor every single time, usually crying about calls. He will be a non factor in transition D.
His post and your post were entirely different. Dwight isn't the last man up the floor every trip, he wasn't that guy in Orlando and he wasn't that guy to close the year in LA. Perhaps your judgement is being influenced by watching very few of his games, probably when he was dealing with nerve damage in his leg that took some time to recover from. He couldn't work out the way he wanted to for a long time, yet he still put the team ahead of his own health and battled through it. That doesn't sound like a lazy person to me. I've seen Blake complain about calls too, I wouldn't call him lazy for it, and hes not even half the overall defender Dwight is. Besides, my memory of Dwight lagging came primarily on the offensive end. His stamina wasn't where it needed to be. The difference in what he said is that the offensive clogging of the 2 could lead to more transition opportunities, thats not a fact but its a possibility. Even if Dwight gets back, theres no gaurantee that Asik can keep pace with the added transition possessions. We'll see tho.

I dont have to get you to believe me the way I have to with Leethal, you already witnessed Blake get it good by Z-Bo/Mark and PF's who can shoot over him like LMA. I've never seen Dwight abused to that degree and he carries a far larger help responsibility. I will never believe that guys like Love are better defenders than Dwight at ANY position. I can see why they become liabilities when they play center, poor defenders at PF are likely going to be worse in the middle, but the other way around? Thats something I cant remember seeing. Ben Wallace and KG have made the shift without becoming liabilities, why would Dwight? Is there any comparable example you guys can point to?

D-Leethal
10-15-2013, 07:10 PM
Seriously, I'm still not seeing it. If you're telling me that Dwight may never recover to his Orlando days of impact and he wouldn't be able to keep up with 4 because he can't stay with them anymore, then I kinda believe that. But to tell me that he's never been able to guard the best offensive big that any team threw at him when healthy? You've gotta be kidding me. Lma, Bosh, Stat, and just about any premiere offensive big I've seen either get completely shut down from Dwight or contained to well below their seasonal averages. And no Rashard Lewis was not the reason for it.

Dwight won DPOY for his ability to anchor a top tier defense, not for being a shutdown corner. Everyone would be held below their averages vs Orlando because he always had them as a top 5 defense. Thats what top 5 defenses do - and Dwight very much deserved those DPOY's, but I'm not buying Dwight as some shutdown 1 on 1 face up defender. He is just the best free roaming anchor there is when he's healthy, and he can dominate the post defensively.

b@llhog24
10-15-2013, 07:12 PM
Maybe it's not lazy and rather easily annoyed by refs?

I could buy that theory over being lazy, but Blake always whines to the ref but overall the Clippers we're still a top 10 defensive team. Why am I focusing on isolated incidences instead of the totality of what Dwight brings to a defense?


Even dating back to Orlando Dwight is the last man up the floor 8 out of 10 times due to crying to refs or just not sprinting back. If that's not lazy in your eyes, so be it. I think it's a combination of things. Bottom line is he's lazy in transition D.

Didn't see it. Ask any Magic fan about it and they'll tell you that they were one of the best defensive teams in in terms of transition points scored when Dwight was there.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5f6UCsz-Gs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srno_Ex-0Cs



Is he going to chase this? Or get out and chase Love and Dirk off the 3 point line in transition?

Don't have flash installed where I am.

Clippersfan86
10-15-2013, 07:14 PM
I could buy that theory over being lazy, but Blake always whines to the ref but overall the Clippers we're still a top 10 defensive team. Why am I focusing on isolated incidences instead of the totality of what Dwight brings to a defense?



Didn't see it. Ask any Magic fan about it and they'll tell you that they were one of the best defensive teams in in terms of transition points scored when Dwight was there.



Don't have flash installed where I am.

It's Griffin and Bosh running coast to coast for finishes, outrunning guards even. Blake also whines too much but he's not a 9th year pro and is slowly but surely maturing. The Clippers were a top 10 defense but the crying to refs was a very big reason why we were ATROCIOUS in transition D and 3 point D.

Clippersfan86
10-15-2013, 07:18 PM
Chronz I don't know what Zbo outplaying or killing Blake in a series has to do with Dwight though? Dwight is one of the best defensive anchors in NBA history and he SHOULD get killed less by his man. Doesn't mean he can consistently step outside the paint and defend the perimeter better than Blake or other PF's can.

b@llhog24
10-15-2013, 07:21 PM
I said I don't see him doing it, as in a consistent, full time thing. I obviously haven't watched every game of Dwight's career, so I didn't say he never did it. Although I've also seen DeAndre Jordan demolish LMA and shut him down terribly last year and I'd never claim DJ can consistently guard PF's. Aldridge isn't particular quick or athletic, so maybe Dwight thrives better against him personally, don't think he's able to guard all PF's like Chronz suggested.

Just saying that he's guarded and completely made bigs who tend to live outside of the paint his *****. Btw Alrdridge is plenty athletic but whatever. Even still we're mainly focusing on stretch fours right?


Dwight won DPOY for his ability to anchor a top tier defense, not for being a shutdown corner.

He won DPOY for being the best defensive player in the game. I don't think being a great help defender only should make you eligible for that award (Ibaka disproves of that theory but anybody with a semblance of a brain could tell who's more worth of being bestowed that award).


Everyone would be held below their averages vs Orlando because he always had them as a top 5 defense. Thats what top 5 defenses do - and Dwight very much deserved those DPOY's, but I'm not buying Dwight as some shutdown 1 on 1 defender.

I know one thing he's better at it than many guys who's primary job is to be a one on one defender.


He is just the best free roaming anchor there is when he's healthy.

I think this is where the divide actually lies; I'm not saying he's best utilized to his strengths guarding 4s. Just that if him and Asik are on the floor at the same time 1) He's better suited to do so than Asik and 2) They'll be a very good defensive team as a result. People are more caught up in the fact that he's not gonna be used (in spurts mind you) in the exact same way as he was in Orlando.

b@llhog24
10-15-2013, 07:24 PM
It's Griffin and Bosh running coast to coast for finishes, outrunning guards even.

So they're just supposed to do this all game? Or you're talking about a few select possessions that it'll happen during the game?


Blake also whines too much but he's not a 9th year pro and is slowly but surely maturing. The Clippers were a top 10 defense but the crying to refs was a very big reason why we were ATROCIOUS in transition D and 3 point D.

I doubt it.

Chronz
10-15-2013, 07:37 PM
I don't see him guarding guys like Bosh, Love, LMA, Dirk, Zbo, Ibaka etc and others like this who have reliable jumpers and can pull him 20 feet from the basket.
I remember 1 game where Dirk completely sucked, hes routinely made Bosh/Stat his ***** IMO and LMA doesn't score as easily against him as he did vs Blake. What sucks is that this is all anecdotal, we can all recall isolated incidents or games where someone did good or bad against someone else (Bron locked down Al Jefferson, doesn't mean I want him guarding Al over Dwight throughout an entire game), and none of us have computer like minds to recall how 1 player has done throughout his entire career against different positions, nor should we just take each others word as gospel. Until Synergy comes back online, I wont be able to break down Dwights defensive stats. Which is why I rather focus on comparison of players who have made the switch back and forth. Guys like Ben Wallace, Amare, KG, Tyson Chandler etc... have done so at one point another, and I dont recall any of them ever being radically different to the point where you guy from one extreme end of the defensive spectrum to another.


Although even if he for some reason DOES chase them around on the perimeter... the other team wins because they take the best defensive anchor in the game, out of the paint.
Have you ever seen him play alongside a defender as talented as Asik? Of course hes not going to guard those guys when his teammates are Rashard Lewis or Pau Gasol. They need Dwight to erase the mistakes his teammates make, something that Pau/Shard isn't equipped to handle. Why would you compromise your entire team defense for the sake of a single player? Its just not that important.

And why only discuss stretch-4's? Not all PF's are stretchy.



In other words.. there is ZERO benefit to playing Dwight at PF.
Not seeing why. Hes a far better defensive option than the majority of the league IMO. Particularly when you have defensive sieves like Lee, Love, Blake etc.....

If you keep this on the offensive side of the ball I can better understand why you would see zero benefit but on a team like the Rockets, its well worth the risk.

Chronz
10-15-2013, 07:45 PM
Dwight won DPOY for his ability to anchor a top tier defense, not for being a shutdown corner. Everyone would be held below their averages vs Orlando because he always had them as a top 5 defense. Thats what top 5 defenses do - and Dwight very much deserved those DPOY's, but I'm not buying Dwight as some shutdown 1 on 1 face up defender. He is just the best free roaming anchor there is when he's healthy, and he can dominate the post defensively.
Nobody is expecting the same results tho, we just arent expecting a complete liability. Especially not to the point where you would rather have someone like Pau out there, who looks even less "comfortable" than Dwight on the perimeter, despite his skillset offensively (a point I never understood anyways).

Ben Wallace at age 34 was able to be a difference maker defensively at the 4 despite having won his DPOY's in the middle and being far removed from those prime years. Im sure there are lots of players Dwight has checked that have gone back and forth between positions, that hes likely to face anyways.