PDA

View Full Version : "Lebron stoppers" (if there is such a thing) Coach Nick-Basketball Breakdown



Chill_Will_24
10-10-2013, 11:35 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mk_3qOcixiI

Thoughts? Do you agree with his points? Maybe some players he should have mentioned?

smiddy012
10-11-2013, 12:02 AM
JB is a boss. Will be an elite defender for years to come.

shep33
10-11-2013, 12:07 AM
I think that Chicago when healthy, have the best shot at containing LBJ and Wade.

Butler + Deng with Noah and Gibson back there will turn that into a 6-7 game series

Chill_Will_24
10-11-2013, 12:25 AM
I really like his points on Butler. That kid plays so fearless. I really think Deng deserved a mention as well.

I think individual defenders on Lebron are very rare and its fools gold any way. One play could maybe check Lebron but none can stop Lebron. The best case is to have such a player like the ones mentioned, WITH a strong team defense behind him.

George had Pacers strong defense to back him so even when Lebron got the best of him the team had his back. Same with Kawhi and Butler. Minnesota did not have a great defense last year so it will be interesting to see what AK can do with Garnett on the floor and Lopez who is good at protecting the rim.

bearadonisdna
10-11-2013, 12:40 AM
I think that Chicago when healthy, have the best shot at containing LBJ and Wade.

Butler + Deng with Noah and Gibson back there will turn that into a 6-7 game series

Wade has played poorly in almost every series vs the bulls.

Teeboy1487
10-11-2013, 12:44 AM
There are no Lebron stoppers. The term does not exist.

Dade County
10-11-2013, 12:51 AM
No one can contain players like Lbj, healthy Wade, KD, prime Kobe...etc

Lbj doesn't play aggressive like he should; he gives that defender a break. If Lbj ever decides to just go hard from the tip, whoever is guarding him, will quickly get into foul trouble, and so on & so on.


I think players like Lbj & KD can do soooo much damage if they just force the issue ( but thats not their style )

If prime Wade or Kobe had the gifts that KD & Lbj have, those two would have averaged like 42pts a game.

None of those guys in that video could stop Lbj from scoring 40 if he wanted too.. The NBA rules are setup for the ball handler.

cvburg
10-11-2013, 08:51 AM
Boris Diaw has done the best job:rolleyes:

koreancabbage
10-11-2013, 09:00 AM
looks like a sound list. LeBron's worse enemy has always been his mental aspect of the game. I mean Lebron can't be stopped when he's playing aggressive and determined. Its when times get tough in the past, he became perimeter oriented and passive everywhere.

I mean we saw some of that at time during these playoffs but we've seen more of the best James has to offer than previous years and playoff runs. Look at James in his first two playoff runs in the Finals and compare them to his play in the last two years. You can see the growth of his mental game over the years and he's becoming resilient to being passive.

No doubt some of these players have "stopped" James but realistically, its James stopping himself. Same goes for all star players.

Slug3
10-11-2013, 09:32 AM
Wade has played poorly in almost every series vs the bulls.

and this goes back to way before Lebron was in Miami, something about Chicago gets the worse out of him.

Ezio
10-11-2013, 10:28 AM
and this goes back to way before Lebron was in Miami, something about Chicago gets the worse out of him.

Memories of when he got eliminated in the first round after getting a ring?

BklynKnicks3
10-11-2013, 10:49 AM
u cant stop a guy when there 2 other all stars who need focus and attention.

justinnum1
10-11-2013, 10:55 AM
Wade has played poorly in almost every series vs the bulls.

that doesn't bode well for chicago ever beating miami.

Jesse2272
10-11-2013, 11:01 AM
Real MIA fans deserve to revel in the LBJ dynasty

it was a dead franchise, even when shaq/wade won it all

Leave it alone, they have the best player on the planet with an amazing support cast, I hate them, but not with ignorance

mjt20mik
10-11-2013, 11:44 AM
With Miami it is so hard to contain them. They have 2 superstars and one all-star. Not many teams can boast that.

That being said, I really think CHI has the best chances this year. It really just comes down to who can help out Rose.

MonroeFAN
10-11-2013, 11:52 AM
Pre-season or not, he wanted no part of Detroit's front line yesterday.

I won't jump the gun, we suck until further notice. But thought it was interesting.

Delrayhc
10-11-2013, 11:54 AM
u cant stop a guy when there 2 other all stars who need focus and attention.

Whiney crybaby response

August 2010

Stinkyoutsider
10-11-2013, 12:51 PM
I think the one true way to stop Lebron now is to make him become a jumpshooter and hope for the best. The same strategy to start with for any perimeter player who's dominant athletically. I think I remember Jeff Van Gundy saying this on tv a few times and I believe it's true.

No one player is going to stop James from getting to the cup if he wants to go there. But, if you have to play him straight up, then you have to take a chance on his jumper not being on. If his jumper is on, just tell him good shot.

It helps to have some rim protectors in case Lebron is hitting his jumper. But at the end of the day, there's an understanding that he can't be stopped unless he stops himself (bad decisions, bad shot attempts). He's worked for the last year or 2 on shot selection (not settling for tough shots) so he's going to be tough to stop until he gets older and loses a step.

Chronz
10-11-2013, 01:21 PM
Duncan, Hibbert, Noah/Gibson and Tyson Chandler (when healthy)

Minimal
10-11-2013, 03:39 PM
Duncan, Hibbert, Noah/Gibson and Tyson Chandler (when healthy)
Exactly. No one can stop LeBron 1 on 1 really, its takes a team effort to do that and the big guys are more responsible for LeBrons struggles than the guys who guard him. If there was no Roy Hibbert, LeBron would toast Paul George, if there was no Duncan, he would toast Leonard, if there was no Joakim Noah, he would toast Jimmy Butler.

bearadonisdna
10-11-2013, 03:53 PM
Exactly. No one can stop LeBron 1 on 1 really, its takes a team effort to do that and the big guys are more responsible for LeBrons struggles than the guys who guard him. If there was no Roy Hibbert, LeBron would toast Paul George, if there was no Duncan, he would toast Leonard, if there was no Joakim Noah, he would toast Jimmy Butler.

And if there was no bosh rose woulda toasted lebron.

beasted86
10-11-2013, 04:13 PM
Pretty much all teams, especially the East teams use a modified zone defense against the LeBron. There is no such thing as an individual stopper.

bearadonisdna
10-11-2013, 04:15 PM
Whats with this revisionist history. No lebron stopper. Lebron has been stopped plenty of time outside of these last two season. Yeah no one exists. ever. whatever.

beasted86
10-11-2013, 04:17 PM
And if there was no bosh rose woulda toasted lebron.

Toasted?

Rose didn't toast Chalmers and Bibby, so how on Earth is he going to toast LeBron? He wasn't efficient that series regardless of who was on him. Yes, it takes good team defense to stop any elite player.

bearadonisdna
10-11-2013, 04:20 PM
Toasted?

Rose didn't toast Chalmers and Bibby, so how on Earth is he going to toast LeBron? He wasn't efficient that series regardless of who was on him. Yes, it takes good team defense to stop any elite player.

yea he was toasting them which why lebron was put on him.

beasted86
10-11-2013, 04:22 PM
yea he was toasting them which why lebron was put on him.

So you are saying Rose took all of his shots for the game in the 4th quarter? Because he clearly didn't defend him for a majority of the game. Rose had multiple 30% shooting games in that series.

Whatever you are trying to say, you are either making Rose look really terrible on offense, or LeBron look that good on defense.

bearadonisdna
10-11-2013, 04:27 PM
So you are saying Rose took all of his shots for the game in the 4th quarter? Because he clearly didn't defend him for a majority of the game. Rose had multiple 30% shooting games in that series.

Whatever you are trying to say, you are either making Rose look really terrible on offense, or LeBron look that good on defense.

We all know the 4th quarters is where roses fg% and scoring dropped in the series. He still averaged like 23 ppg but rarely scored when lebron was on him in the fourth. So mostly all of those points came against non-lebron defenders.
Nice try at that false dichotomy.

bearadonisdna
10-11-2013, 04:39 PM
If Lebron is rose stopper than Butler is a lebron stopper. Point blank. U cant discredit help defense only when its convenient.

Bostonjorge
10-11-2013, 04:47 PM
With out the refs James can be guarded by a handful of players.

beasted86
10-11-2013, 04:53 PM
We all know the 4th quarters is where roses fg% dropped in the series.

No, I don't know what you are talking about to be honest. I just took about 10 minutes to go thru the gamelogs on BR: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/rosede01/gamelog/2011/, including the play-by-play in the 4th.

Game 2 Rose went 0/4 in the 4th quarter. He went 7/19 the first 3 quarters which means 37%. Rose shots 1/2 for Game 3 in the 4th, 7/18 first 3 quarters, which is 41%, still poor for a 1st option. Rose was 1/8 in the 4th and overtime combined in Game 4, 7/19 or 37% in the first 3 quarters. Rose went 2/9 in Game 5, 7/20 for the first 3 quarters 35%. Do you see a trend here for the first 3 quarters?

Trend for games 2-5 is all the same..... 7 out of 18-20 shots for the first 3 quarters. The HEAT were able to really limit Rose by effective team defense mainly by keeping him out of the lane and off the FT line, it was just magnified in the 4th quarter with LeBron and the stagnant offense the Bulls ran with no other go to option.

As I said, I don't know what point you are trying to make but you are either making LeBron look that good on defense or Rose look that terrible on offense. I think Rose is an elite player and the only way we were stopping him was with an effective game strategy, and Spoelstra doesn't get enough credit for this. Yes, Wade and LeBron got a number of blocks and steals on Rose in the series, but it was still a team effort.

bearadonisdna
10-11-2013, 05:11 PM
No, I don't know what you are talking about to be honest. I just took about 10 minutes to go thru the gamelogs on BR: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/rosede01/gamelog/2011/, including the play-by-play in the 4th.

Game 2 Rose went 0/4 in the 4th quarter. He went 7/19 the first 3 quarters which means 37%. Rose shots 1/2 for Game 3 in the 4th, 7/18 first 3 quarters, which is 41%, still poor for a 1st option. Rose was 1/8 in the 4th and overtime combined in Game 4, 7/19 or 37% in the first 3 quarters. Rose went 2/9 in Game 5, 7/20 for the first 3 quarters 35%. Do you see a trend here for the first 3 quarters?

Trend for games 2-5 is all the same..... 7 out of 18-20 shots for the first 3 quarters. The HEAT were able to really limit Rose by effective team defense mainly by keeping him out of the lane and off the FT line, it was just magnified in the 4th quarter with LeBron and the stagnant offense the Bulls ran with no other go to option.

As I said, I don't know what point you are trying to make but you are either making LeBron look that good on defense or Rose look that terrible on offense. I think Rose is an elite player and the only way we were stopping him was with an effective game strategy, and Spoelstra doesn't get enough credit for this. Yes, Wade and LeBron got a number of blocks and steals on Rose in the series, but it was still a team effort.

Funny you only takes stats form the bulls loses to prove ur point that bibby and chalmers werent getting toasted. Sure the fg% of rose dont tell the whole story, Numbers can be skewed to say many things but what its didnt say for u is that most of the points scored int he series were in the first 3 quarters when lebron wasnt guarding him, meaning bibby or chalmers or whoever. And he scored 22 ppg in the series so if he wasnt scoring in the 4th whos head was he dropping all those points on. Exactly.

bearadonisdna
10-11-2013, 05:17 PM
Plus u say 41% is poor for a number 1 option but lebron shot only marginally better (44%) vs jimmy butler in the playoffs.

SPURSFAN1
10-11-2013, 05:21 PM
Exactly. No one can stop LeBron 1 on 1 really, its takes a team effort to do that and the big guys are more responsible for LeBrons struggles than the guys who guard him. If there was no Roy Hibbert, LeBron would toast Paul George, if there was no Duncan, he would toast Leonard, if there was no Joakim Noah, he would toast Jimmy Butler.

Kawhi did the best defense on Lebron. If duncan wasn't there, Kawhi would still hold down Lebron way down from his averages.

bearadonisdna
10-11-2013, 05:25 PM
The heat held rose to 35% 9 points below roses season average. Butler held lebron to 44% 12 points below his season average.

So the more drastic stopping if compared based on fg%s is jimmys "stopping' of james.

bearadonisdna
10-11-2013, 05:31 PM
And people wanna discredit what jimmy did as only help d. Well jimmys help d was depleted as well as noah having his own allstar to cover.

ramsizzle
10-11-2013, 05:31 PM
Kawhi did the best defense on Lebron. If duncan wasn't there, Kawhi would still hold down Lebron way down from his averages.

No he did not. Not any way, shape, or form was he better than butler. no one was in this years playoffs. the numbers prove it.

SPURSFAN1
10-11-2013, 05:36 PM
Lebron had the lowest OffRTG vs Kawhi and also the lowest Effective and true shotting percentage but jimmy butler is the better defender? can someone explain that to me? He also did it in a 7 game series.

bearadonisdna
10-11-2013, 05:39 PM
No he did not. Not any way, shape, or form was he better than butler. no one was in this years playoffs. the numbers prove it.

Yea Lebrons ppg and fg% were higher vs SA than Chicago. And vs SA others took turns guarding lebron. Jimmy had no help on the wings and was the only defender playing 48 minutes in multiple games.
As far as eFG% is concerned he shot identical 3pt% vs SA and chicago but the overall lower fg% vs chicago. Meaning he had a lower efg% vs chicago who had less help defense.

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/gamelog/_/id/1966/lebron-james

SPURSFAN1
10-11-2013, 05:42 PM
Jimmy with that .105 WS/48 vs Kawhi .194 in the playoffs. I'd rather kawhi gaurd Lebron than jimmy.

SPURSFAN1
10-11-2013, 05:45 PM
Yea Lebrons ppg and fg% were higher vs SA than Chicago. And vs SA others took turns guarding lebron. Jimmy had no help on the wings and was the only defender playing 48 minutes in multiple games.

What does that matter if he shoots a *** load more but doesn't get fouled and going to the free throw line? His effectiveness decreased, because he isn't shooting 90% free throws. Does anyone understand how effective field percentage is a better parameter than just plain fg%? I thought we went through this already?

ramsizzle
10-11-2013, 05:46 PM
Lebron had the lowest OffRTG vs Kawhi and also the lowest Effective and true shotting percentage but jimmy butler is the better defender? can someone explain that to me? He also did it in a 7 game series.

offrtg is team based... won't even get into that.

the efg% dropoff is miniscule at best .6% difference ina series win which lebron shot worse in actual fg% and scored less....

all without the best player and great defender in rose and an elite defender in deng.

bearadonisdna
10-11-2013, 05:46 PM
Jimmy with that .105 WS/48 vs Kawhi .194 in the playoffs. I'd rather kawhi gaurd Lebron than jimmy.

WS arent even a defensive stat lol

bearadonisdna
10-11-2013, 05:48 PM
What does that matter if he shoots a *** load more but doesn't get fouled and going to the free throw line? His effectiveness decreased, because he isn't shooting 90% free throws. Does anyone understand how effective field percentage is a better parameter than just plain fg%? I thought we went through this already?

i understand efg % but look at the series. I posted it above. He shot identical 3's vs SA and Chicago. The lower overall fg% to chicago.

How in the hell does that give SA the better eFG%?

ramsizzle
10-11-2013, 05:48 PM
What does that matter if he shoots a *** load more but doesn't get fouled and going to the free throw line? His effectiveness decreased, because he isn't shooting 90% free throws. Does anyone understand how effective field percentage is a better parameter than just plain fg%? I thought we went through this already?

Leonard did an embarrassing job game 7.... this isn't an argument for anyone but spurs fans. Getting to the line is points... should we throw that away?

SPURSFAN1
10-11-2013, 05:49 PM
WS arent even a defensive stat lol

So Kawhi plays better defense vs lebron and has a way bigger impact on the floor while using 16% usage rate. wow.

ramsizzle
10-11-2013, 05:52 PM
So Kawhi plays better defense vs lebron and has a way bigger impact on the floor while using 16% usage rate. wow.

Leonard benefited being the what? 5th option on his team? due to injuries butler was 2nd maybe 3rd. less load = easier to post solid numbers.

ramsizzle
10-11-2013, 05:52 PM
.

bearadonisdna
10-11-2013, 05:53 PM
So Kawhi plays better defense vs lebron and has a way bigger impact on the floor while using 16% usage rate. wow.

Wat is that even supposed to mean? It ur opinion kawhi played better d, not fact. Jimmy has a lower usage than leonard so failing to see hows that relevant. BTW u need to get wins to get win shares while the bulls were without their best player.

SPURSFAN1
10-11-2013, 05:55 PM
Wat is that even supposed to mean? It ur opinion kawhi played better d, not fact. Jimmy has a lower usage than leonard so failing to see hows that relevant. BTW u need to get wins to get win shares while the bulls were without their best player.

Kinda of embarrassing that Kawhi has won more games vs the Miami Heat than the chicago bulls in the last 4 years in the playoffs.

bearadonisdna
10-11-2013, 05:59 PM
Kinda of embarrassing that Kawhi has won more games vs the Miami Heat than the chicago bulls in the last 4 years in the playoffs.

Dude what is ur deal with the bulls? Let all pretend like rose didnt miss all last season. Grief.

ramsizzle
10-11-2013, 06:01 PM
Kinda of embarrassing that Kawhi has won more games vs the Miami Heat than the chicago bulls in the last 4 years in the playoffs.

kind of embarassing that the last two time the bulls played the spurs with rose he had 42 against san antonio in a game the spurs needed to win for the one seed... then the next year beat em in san antionio.... your team is a non threat to us..

bearadonisdna
10-11-2013, 06:02 PM
kind of embarassing that the last two time the bulls played the spurs with rose he had 42 against san antonio in a game the spurs needed to win for the one seed... then the next year beat em in san antionio.... your team is a non threat to us..


Dont do it. He doesnt seem to be able to handle opposing viewpoints and results to team bashing.

SPURSFAN1
10-11-2013, 06:02 PM
kind of embarassing that the last two time the bulls played the spurs with rose he had 42 against san antonio in a game the spurs needed to win for the one seed... then the next year beat em in san antionio.... your team is a non threat to us..

And the lakers beat us right before the playoffs. They literally got manhandled in the playoffs. What's your point about the regular season?

ramsizzle
10-11-2013, 06:04 PM
And the lakers beat us right before the playoffs. They literally got manhandled in the playoffs. What's your point about the regular season?

Meaning in a playoff like atmosphere the bulls whooped on san antionio on the road. that is what my point is... this is a thread about defense against Lebron, please take your agenda elsewhere.

SPURSFAN1
10-11-2013, 06:06 PM
Meaning in a playoff like atmosphere the bulls whooped on san antionio on the road. that is what my point is... this is a thread about defense against Lebron, please take your agenda elsewhere.

Playoff "like" atmosphere? It was just another regular season game out of 82. I still don't understand what you mean?

bearadonisdna
10-11-2013, 06:09 PM
I mean its funny , Kawhi lets lebron score 30 multiple times in the series as well as a few blistering percentages but he , did the better job? really?
With more help defense?

SPURSFAN1
10-11-2013, 06:10 PM
I mean its funny , Kawhi lets lebron score 30 multiple times in the series as well as a few blistering percentages but he , did the better job? really?

I guess you just missed the first couple of games of the finals.

ramsizzle
10-11-2013, 06:15 PM
I guess you just missed the first couple of games of the finals.


good thing there was 7 games...

SPURSFAN1
10-11-2013, 06:18 PM
good thing there was 7 games...

Guess you missed the stats at the beginning of the thread where Kawhi has better defense.

ramsizzle
10-11-2013, 06:22 PM
Guess you missed the stats at the beginning of the thread where Kawhi has better defense.

good thing not one stat besides efg% was in his favor....and even in that he couldn't keep up with lebrons speed or strength so he fouled. you can not understand this. Leonard did not defend lebron better, it is simple as that.

Game 7 - open jumper, open jumper, open jumper....

stop. you are wrong. end of story.

bearadonisdna
10-11-2013, 06:23 PM
Guess you missed the stats at the beginning of the thread where Kawhi has better defense.

Those stats were shut down with the multiple 30 point games lebrons had and even shooting over 60% in one of them. No doubt they started off great vs him but then he started scoring 30 or more.
33 points on 60% shooting isnt exactly stopping bruh. Thats actually being torched.

Lebron had one game vs chi where he shot over 50% but he only scored 19 points.

SPURSFAN1
10-11-2013, 06:26 PM
good thing not one stat besides efg% was in his favor....and even in that he couldn't keep up with lebrons speed or strength so he fouled. you can not understand this. Leonard did not defend lebron better, it is simple as that.

Game 7 - open jumper, open jumper, open jumper....

stop. you are wrong. end of story.

He lit it up. Sometimes players catch on fire no matter what you do. He's the best player on the world right now. Atleast the spurs took 3 games and went into overtime in another game which they should have won. The bulls or jimmy would take those achievements over getting rocked in the playoffs and embarrassing themselves to the miami heat.

SPURSFAN1
10-11-2013, 06:27 PM
Those stats were shut down with the multiple 30 point games lebrons had and even shooting over 60% in one of them. No doubt they started off great vs him but then he started scoring 30 or more.
33 points on 60% shooting isnt exactly stopping bruh.

You act like the bulls won four games vs the Heat. How'd that go?

Chronz
10-11-2013, 06:29 PM
You act like the bulls won four games vs the Heat. How'd that go?

So if a player scores 30pts in a loss, I can say that the guy who scored 10pts on the winning team played better offense?

bearadonisdna
10-11-2013, 06:30 PM
You act like the bulls won four games vs the Heat. How'd that go?

so is this about winning games or better d on lebron? cmon man. but what i do know is thatboth teams lost 4 games to heat.

ramsizzle
10-11-2013, 06:31 PM
He lit it up. Sometimes players catch on fire no matter what you do. He's the best player on the world right now. Atleast the spurs took 3 games and went into overtime in another game which they should have won. The bulls or jimmy would take those achievements over getting rocked in the playoffs and embarrassing themselves to the miami heat.

Yeah if only we could've lucked into the finals by pg injury like the spurs..... damn.

SPURSFAN1
10-11-2013, 06:35 PM
@Chronz
game 7 19 points 16 rebounds http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGl2ajIVG8s
game 6 22 points 11 rebounds http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRFbug05aFg
yeah he did tuurrible

bearadonisdna
10-11-2013, 06:40 PM
@Chronz
game 7 19 points 16 rebounds http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGl2ajIVG8s
game 6 22 points 11 rebounds http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRFbug05aFg
yeah he did tuurrible

Not to throw those stats under the bus, but game 7 lebron scored 37 points 12 rebs on 52% shooting. So just yea.

beasted86
10-11-2013, 06:42 PM
Funny you only takes stats form the bulls loses to prove ur point that bibby and chalmers werent getting toasted. Sure the fg% of rose dont tell the whole story, Numbers can be skewed to say many things but what its didnt say for u is that most of the points scored int he series were in the first 3 quarters when lebron wasnt guarding him, meaning bibby or chalmers or whoever. And he scored 22 ppg in the series so if he wasnt scoring in the 4th whos head was he dropping all those points on. Exactly.

Your point was you said Rose would have roasted LeBron, but my point is he didn't even roast Chalmers and Bibby because his efficiency was putrid and he played like garbage. Even if you combine his efficiency for the whole 1st game, and the final 4 games quarters 1-3, he still sucked. I don't know how you can put it any other way. Rough calculation puts him about 39 for all 5 games, excluding the 4th quarters from the final 4 games. I could care less if a guy puts up 50 PPG, if he's doing it at 39% and the rest of his teammates are all shooting higher than him, then the coach should seriously revise his game strategy.

But, since you want to continue this line of logic, I am going to let you sit in your own stew.

Lets go back to what you said. You claim that Butler held LeBron to 44% down from his season 56% and you are trying to compare it to what he did against Rose... except you made a fatal flaw. By your recount, LeBron only covered Rose in the 4th quarter of the final 4 games, so in reality he held him to 3/23 for the series when guarding him. That's 13% down from his regular season average of 45%. That's absolute domination and destruction of the current voted MVP of that same season, and this means LeBron was robbed of the DPOY award for 2010-2011, because he was able to slaughter the MVP on his homecourt with a defensive clinic.

bearadonisdna
10-11-2013, 06:44 PM
Your point was you said Rose would have roasted LeBron, but my point is he didn't even roast Chalmers and Bibby because his efficiency was putrid and he played like garbage. Even if you combine his efficiency for the whole 1st game, and the final 4 games quarters 1-3, he still sucked. I don't know how you can put it any other way. Rough calculation puts him about 39 for all 5 games, excluding the 4th quarters from the final 4 games. I could care less if a guy puts up 50 PPG, if he's doing it at 39% and the rest of his teammates are all shooting higher than him, then the coach should seriously revise his game strategy.

But, since you want to continue this line of logic, I am going to let you sit in your own stew.

Lets go back to what you said. You claim that Butler held LeBron to 44% down from his season 56% and you are trying to compare it to what he did against Rose... except you made a fatal flaw. By your recount, LeBron only covered Rose in the 4th quarter of the final 4 games, so in reality he held him to 3/23 for the series when guarding him. That's 13% down from his regular season average of 45%. That's absolute domination and destruction of the current voted MVP of that same season, and this means LeBron was robbed of the DPOY award for 2010-2011, because he was able to slaughter the MVP on his homecourt with a defensive clinic.

If putting up close to 20 points through 3 quarters is garbage we have different definitions of garbage. And u have different definitions of defense.

Chronz
10-11-2013, 06:45 PM
@Chronz
game 7 19 points 16 rebounds http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGl2ajIVG8s
game 6 22 points 11 rebounds http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRFbug05aFg
yeah he did tuurrible

Kawhi played better than anyone who defended Bron. Thats not my point tho. Im not picking sides, just questioning you.

bearadonisdna
10-11-2013, 06:48 PM
Your point was you said Rose would have roasted LeBron, but my point is he didn't even roast Chalmers and Bibby because his efficiency was putrid and he played like garbage. Even if you combine his efficiency for the whole 1st game, and the final 4 games quarters 1-3, he still sucked. I don't know how you can put it any other way. Rough calculation puts him about 39 for all 5 games, excluding the 4th quarters from the final 4 games. I could care less if a guy puts up 50 PPG, if he's doing it at 39% and the rest of his teammates are all shooting higher than him, then the coach should seriously revise his game strategy.

But, since you want to continue this line of logic, I am going to let you sit in your own stew.

Lets go back to what you said. You claim that Butler held LeBron to 44% down from his season 56% and you are trying to compare it to what he did against Rose... except you made a fatal flaw. By your recount, LeBron only covered Rose in the 4th quarter of the final 4 games, so in reality he held him to 3/23 for the series when guarding him. That's 13% down from his regular season average of 45%. That's absolute domination and destruction of the current voted MVP of that same season, and this means LeBron was robbed of the DPOY award for 2010-2011, because he was able to slaughter the MVP on his homecourt with a defensive clinic.

So how about the annilhation of james the series right after that. If lebron was to be lauded for what he did agaisnt rose then surely the mav defenders deserve the same credit for allowing lebron to a pathetic 17 ppg inthe series for a number 1 option.

Obviously season long awards arent awarded for situational successes.

SPURSFAN1
10-11-2013, 06:53 PM
Not to throw those stats under the bus, but game 7 lebron scored 37 points 12 rebs on 52% shooting. So just yea.

So what? He got hot. Kawhi leonard never had a play called out for him. I wonder what'll happen when he becomes the focal point of the offense.

Lebron in the finals 18points 18 rebounds on 44% shooting
17points 8 rebounds on 41% shooting
15points 11 rebounds on 33% shooting
33points 11 rebounds on 60% shooting
25 points 6 rebounds on 37% shooting
32 points 10 rebounds on 42% shooting
And he lit it up in game 7. He still got defended great the entire series besides one game. Kawhi was no scrub though.

bearadonisdna
10-11-2013, 07:08 PM
Beasted Hey jimmy held lebron to 35% shooting in a game 3 on his home court. The reigning mvp. Using ur stew jimmy should be DPOY

SPURSFAN1
10-11-2013, 07:11 PM
Beasted Hey jimmy held lebron to 35% shooting on his home court. The reigning mvp. Using ur stew jimmy should be DPOY

Last time I'm asking this. Did you see the video where it shows that Kawhi defended Lebron better than any other player?

beasted86
10-11-2013, 07:12 PM
So how about the annilhation of james the series right after that. If lebron was to be lauded for what he did agaisnt rose then surely the mav defenders deserve the same credit for allowing lebron to a pathetic 17 ppg inthe series for a number 1 option.

Obviously season long awards arent awarded for situational successes.
Well, the day somebody holds LeBron to 13% FG for 4 straight games, they will surely have my full utmost respect. But I've never seen an MVP manhandled in such a fashion single-handed (since you don't give much credit to team defense).

bearadonisdna
10-11-2013, 07:14 PM
that doesn't bode well for chicago ever beating miami.

It bodes better than the alternate scenario.

bearadonisdna
10-11-2013, 07:15 PM
No i didnt see the video but i saw both series.

SPURSFAN1
10-11-2013, 07:17 PM
No i didnt see the video but i saw both series.

Lol. One last take. Espn rankings hasn't even ranked Kawhi Leonard. Kawhi is the better defender and all around better player.

bearadonisdna
10-11-2013, 07:19 PM
Well, the day somebody holds LeBron to 13% FG for 4 straight games, they will surely have my full utmost respect. But I've never seen an MVP manhandled in such a fashion single-handed (since you don't give much credit to team defense).

obviously thats very circumstancial. Give lebron all the credit u like, but then u have to give the same credit to butler who playing vs an mvp holding him well below his efficiency. Certainly not to extent lebron did to rose but certainly not as circumstantial either.

bearadonisdna
10-11-2013, 07:20 PM
Lol. One last take. Espn rankings hasn't even ranked Kawhi Leonard. Kawhi is the better defender and all around better player.

Really? espn?

beasted86
10-11-2013, 07:23 PM
Lol. One last take. Espn rankings hasn't even ranked Kawhi Leonard. Kawhi is the better defender and all around better player.

The statistical breakdown in the video, and the fact that Butler didn't get 1 singular defensive team vote from any of the coaches, including his own coaches (but Kawhi did) means absolutely nothing.

Butler is clearly the best LeBron defender in the NBA by far.


.... you seriously can't win with homers.

bearadonisdna
10-11-2013, 07:25 PM
The statistical breakdown in the video, and the fact that Butler didn't get 1 singular defensive team vote from any of the coaches, including his own coaches (but Kawhi did) means absolutely nothing.

Butler is clearly the best LeBron defender in the NBA by far.

Defensive team votes. While jimmy was coming off the bench for most of the year? Really? I didnt see jimmy get torched for 30+ if thats what ur saying. wtf?

bearadonisdna
10-11-2013, 07:32 PM
The statistical breakdown in the video, and the fact that Butler didn't get 1 singular defensive team vote from any of the coaches, including his own coaches (but Kawhi did) means absolutely nothing.

Butler is clearly the best LeBron defender in the NBA by far.


.... you seriously can't win with homers.

says u, trying to state how defensive votes for leonard mean something in the direct guarding of lebron. Those votes are for league wide defense.
It wouldnt surprise me ur vouching for a non-conference defender for the stopper title , it would defeat the heats rhetoric to believe the bulls have a player like that considering wade always crap himself vs us.
sure prop the guy who allows 30 pts to him on 60% shooting, yea that guy stops lebron the best. and im the homer?

bearadonisdna
10-11-2013, 07:37 PM
I mean dam yeah rose the mvp but u put 6,9 lebron on him, rose is 6'4. Thats 5 inches and u wanna say he robbed for defensive awards because he situationally defended a player 5 inches shorter than him.
The next time i do that im running for mvp.

SPURSFAN1
10-11-2013, 07:37 PM
says u, trying to state how defensive votes for leonard mean something in the direct guarding of lebron. Those votes are for league wide defense.
It wouldnt surprise me ur vouching for a non-conference defender for the stopper title , it would defeat the heats rhetoric to believe the bulls have a player like that considering wade always crap himself vs us.
sure prop the guy who allows 30 pts to him on 60% shooting, yea that guy stops lebron the best. and im the homer?

I think he was talking about me. I really don't know though. Kawhi was 21 years old during the playoffs. Skies the limit for this kid. He already has great defense. The hardest part to work on is defense, and he already has that down.

bearadonisdna
10-11-2013, 07:39 PM
I think he was talking about me. I really don't know though. Kawhi was 21 years old during the playoffs. Skies the limit for this kid. He already has great defense. The hardest part to work on is defense, and he already has that down.

He is a good player.

beasted86
10-11-2013, 07:41 PM
I think he was talking about me. I really don't know though. Kawhi was 21 years old during the playoffs. Skies the limit for this kid. He already has great defense. The hardest part to work on is defense, and he already has that down.

It was sarcasm.

SPURSFAN1
10-11-2013, 07:44 PM
He is a good player.

They're both good players. I can't wait for the season to start already.

ramsizzle
10-11-2013, 07:47 PM
The statistical breakdown in the video, and the fact that Butler didn't get 1 singular defensive team vote from any of the coaches, including his own coaches (but Kawhi did) means absolutely nothing.

Butler is clearly the best LeBron defender in the NBA by far.



.... you seriously can't win with homers.


Butler started twenty games....he is now the starter. defensive team? i dare you to bring that up again when someone brings up kobe. because you will. Butler is the best perimeter defender on the bulls... a team that has luol deng, a person who received a DPOY vote. A player regarded as better than both... we see this team daily and see that Jimmy is the better defender.

Also the same video you keep speaking of has BUTLER rated number one, not leonard.

SPURSFAN1
10-11-2013, 07:50 PM
Butler started twenty games....he is now the starter. defensive team? i dare you to bring that up again when someone brings up kobe. because you will. Butler is the best perimeter defender on the bulls... a team that has luol deng, a person who received a DPOY vote. A player regarded as better than both... we see this team daily and see that Jimmy is the better defender.

Also the same video you keep speaking of has BUTLER rated number one, not leonard.

It was his opinion, but from looking at the stats, Kawhi held lebron on true, effective shooting percentage and offRTG. Did you look at the stats?

ramsizzle
10-11-2013, 07:56 PM
It was his opinion, but from looking at the stats, Kawhi held lebron on true, effective shooting percentage and offRTG. Did you look at the stats?

the effg% was barely a difference.... .6%

And the offRTG is a TEAM stat... TEAM. Understand that if Deng and Rose are healthy that those numbers change. the offRTG was because Leonard played on the better team. Not to mention Butler one on one'd him literally almost every minute of the series...

SPURSFAN1
10-11-2013, 07:58 PM
the effg% was barely a difference.... .6%

And the offRTG is a TEAM stat... TEAM. Understand that if Deng and Rose are healthy that those numbers change. the offRTG was because Leonard played on the better team. Not to mention Butler one on one'd him literally almost every minute of the series...

Doesn't matter bro. He still did better. End of story. Everything else is just speculation.

bearadonisdna
10-11-2013, 08:01 PM
TS% shouldnt be indicative of defense as there is no defense on free throws.

beasted86
10-11-2013, 08:03 PM
Butler started twenty games....he is now the starter. defensive team? i dare you to bring that up again when someone brings up kobe. because you will. Butler is the best perimeter defender on the bulls... a team that has luol deng, a person who received a DPOY vote. A player regarded as better than both... we see this team daily and see that Jimmy is the better defender.

Also the same video you keep speaking of has BUTLER rated number one, not leonard.
Butler wasn't the number 1 in the video. You might want to watch it again and look at the net difference vs. regular season in comparison to the others. Leonard and the Spurs defended LeBron the best by far.

And its all fine and dandy that you guys have the opinion that Butler is the better defender, but I'd like some sort of factual backing to that stance.

bearadonisdna
10-11-2013, 08:04 PM
Also the same video you keep speaking of has BUTLER rated number one, not leonard.

+1

SPURSFAN1
10-11-2013, 08:04 PM
TS% shouldnt be indicative of defense as there is no defense on free throws.

Are you serious? anyways im out

beasted86
10-11-2013, 08:06 PM
Are you serious? anyways im out

Unfortunately, yes.

bearadonisdna
10-11-2013, 08:07 PM
maybe i should go watch this damn video.

bearadonisdna
10-11-2013, 08:08 PM
TS% accounts for free throws right? are u guys serious?

ramsizzle
10-11-2013, 08:12 PM
Doesn't matter bro. He still did better. End of story. Everything else is just speculation.



He was great in the perimeter due to length but was flat out dominated when lebron decided not to force up shots. then when he tried to play the post on lebron he was dominated on the perimeter. He is not fast or strong enough to bother lebron, though his length def did.

Jimmy consistency frustrated him throughout the series and did not allow a moment to even breathe.
Butler only played 45 less minutes on lebron despite playing in two less games. The amount of minutes and sheer lack of help defense is why he did a better job, not overall numbers.

ramsizzle
10-11-2013, 08:16 PM
Butler wasn't the number 1 in the video. You might want to watch it again and look at the net difference vs. regular season in comparison to the others. Leonard and the Spurs defended LeBron the best by far.

And its all fine and dandy that you guys have the opinion that Butler is the better defender, but I'd like some sort of factual backing to that stance.

Well he was number one, considering the man speaking made the list and states butler defended him the best. You or i can not truly define defensive numbers because advanced metrics for that end of the court are flawed. there is no metric that doesn't at least have some for of team defense involved.

Number for jimmy are skewed because he played every minute of every game with the starters and bench. without rose and deng our bench was made starters and our 12th man was a part of the rotation, so numbers on that end are clearly skewed. You guys will completely ignore this and spew some uneducated garbage without actually understanding the metrics you will use in your argument. Lets just agree to disagree.

bearadonisdna
10-11-2013, 08:17 PM
delete.

SPURSFAN1
10-11-2013, 08:21 PM
If Lebron has a getaway dunk and butler fouls him at the last second, his field goal% should have increased but didn't because he got fouled. That's not good defense and shows in eFG%. eFG% is more reliant on how efficient you were.

bearadonisdna
10-11-2013, 08:26 PM
If Lebron has a getaway dunk and butler fouls him at the last second, his field goal% should have increased but didn't because he got fouled. That's not good defense and shows in eFG%. eFG% is more reliant on how efficient you were.

but it actually would be good defense becasue ur making him earn it the line instead of giving him an uncontested dunk. That where ur stats fail u my friend.

ramsizzle
10-11-2013, 08:26 PM
If Lebron has a getaway dunk and butler fouls him at the last second, his field goal% should have increased but didn't because he got fouled. That's not good defense and shows in eFG%. eFG% is more reliant on how efficient you were.

You are wrong. eFG% is a formula that shows a 3pt shot is worth more than a 2pt shot. that is it. the formula is (fg+.5*3pt)/fga

FOBolous
10-11-2013, 08:49 PM
the Rockets defended Lebron James pretty well when we had both Battier and Artest on the team. He averaged 24 pts on 40% shooting vs Houston that season.

bearadonisdna
10-11-2013, 08:51 PM
delete.