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View Full Version : Why is it so hard to find a tall PG?



Chronz
10-10-2013, 05:01 PM
Seems like every prospective PG (taller than 6"5) that comes into the league eventually gets stuck back to playing the 2 or never finding a position. Terrence Williams, Iman Shumpert, Tyreke Evans, even going back to Jalen Rose, Steve Smith and Jamal Crawford, it seems the only tall PG that has thrived at the position was Penny and even he eventually had to be moved to the 2/3 (due to injuries).

Every year I look for one of these guys to break the trend, this year its Michael Carter-Williams. But they all seem to suffer the same fate. I know we will never see another Magic but why hasn't a poor mans version come along? What would Magic even look like in todays NBA?


Feel free to mention other big PG's but why do you think these prospects failed at transitioning to the point?

koreancabbage
10-10-2013, 05:04 PM
so much work protecting the ball. A lot of taller players would have to bend a little lower to protect the ball smaller players could easily swipe the ball.

but thats just one of the many theories we're about to hear.

Kashmir13579
10-10-2013, 05:21 PM
Iman was never really meant to play the point, he was just kind of forced to because we didn't have anyone else that year until we found Jeremy Lin. Michael Carter Williams i don't think will succeed either, and unlike Iman he probably can't shoot well enough to play the two, at least not yet.

Kashmir13579
10-10-2013, 05:22 PM
I mean, the obvious answer is there is a bigger need for tall players at other positions. Otherwise younger, taller kids would be growing up learning to play the point.

Six-8-TheWizard
10-10-2013, 05:25 PM
Seems like every prospective PG (taller than 6"5) that comes into the league eventually gets stuck back to playing the 2 or never finding a position. Terrence Williams, Iman Shumpert, Tyreke Evans, even going back to Jalen Rose, Steve Smith and Jamal Crawford, it seems the only tall PG that has thrived at the position was Penny and even he eventually had to be moved to the 2/3 (due to injuries).

Every year I look for one of these guys to break the trend, this year its Michael Carter-Williams. But they all seem to suffer the same fate. I know we will never see another Magic but why hasn't a poor mans version come along? What would Magic even look like in todays NBA?


Feel free to mention other big PG's but why do you think these prospects failed at transitioning to the point?

Magic???

Chronz
10-10-2013, 05:30 PM
Iman was never really meant to play the point, he was just kind of forced to because we didn't have anyone else that year until we found Jeremy Lin. Michael Carter Williams i don't think will succeed either, and unlike Iman he probably can't shoot well enough to play the two, at least not yet.
I dont watch much college, I just listen to the breakdowns and interviews of the incoming prospects. And I can tell you thats not how Iman saw himself. His role changed alot at GT and he wound up playing more off the ball his final days but he was still pegged as a PG/SG (he was in the PG class IIRC) and when asked if he saw himself as more of a pure point vs a combo guard he said "Im definitely a pure Point". So the guy obviously wanted to succeed at the position but you might be right about the team never thinking that was an option. Still have to wonder why they would try him before Lin at that position tho.


Magic???
Obviously since Magic, hence me bringing him up in the following paragraph

Jesse2272
10-10-2013, 05:34 PM
Product of the environment, PG is not sexy these days

D.O.N.
10-10-2013, 05:38 PM
grievous vasquez is a really good point men and he's 6'6
pre injury livingston was an above average PG

So there are "succes stories" aswell

More-Than-Most
10-10-2013, 05:39 PM
Isnt that what the sixers are doing with turner now? He is so much better with the ball in his hands and I think we got rid of Holiday because of him

flea
10-10-2013, 05:43 PM
For virtually all those guys their limitation was ball-handling. Ball-handlers tend to be shorter because shorter players, in general, have better coordination (and lower distance to the ground, better balance, lower center of gravity, etc.). MCW seems like he's a good enough ball handler to at least play a backup role, but obviously the biggest question other than his shooting at the moment is his man-to-man defense.

Bigs also tend to be slower, so you need to find a player that can guard the opposing PG anyway if your big PG cannot. Terrence Williams didn't play point at Louisville really - Pitino just helped him develop into an all-around player.

Byronicle
10-10-2013, 05:43 PM
Lebron?

All those guys listed don't have the quickness of ball handling to play PG

Kashmir13579
10-10-2013, 05:44 PM
I dont watch much college, I just listen to the breakdowns and interviews of the incoming prospects. And I can tell you thats not how Iman saw himself. His role changed alot at GT and he wound up playing more off the ball his final days but he was still pegged as a PG/SG (he was in the PG class IIRC) and when asked if he saw himself as more of a pure point vs a combo guard he said "Im definitely a pure Point". So the guy obviously wanted to succeed at the position but you might be right about the team never thinking that was an option. Still have to wonder why they would try him before Lin at that position tho.

We picked Lin up after the season was already under way. I don't think you remember how much of a nobody he was. Mike D'antoni tried literally everything before throwing Jeremy out there.

About the combo guard thing, i watch a lot of college ball but mostly Big East. (until this year, of course i'll be shifting my focus to the ACC) Its not far off to see a combo guard in college completely lose that mentality in the NBA. It happens all the time. As an NBA point guard, you either have it or you don't, and it almost always comes down to handles. In college, the defenses aren't so strong that you can't get away with having a Toney Douglas, or a Darius Johnson-Odom playing the "point.", whereas in the NBA, the aforementioned players offensive strengths aren't enough to forgo lack of handle, or IQ, or size.

Jesse2272
10-10-2013, 05:53 PM
its a gift not dependent on size that is sparingly dispersed by the bball gods

Chronz
10-10-2013, 06:01 PM
grievous vasquez is a really good point men and he's 6'6
pre injury livingston was an above average PG

So there are "succes stories" aswell

Vasquez is definitely the best tall player we've seen run an offense thats for sure. But even he has something to prove on a good team.

Livingston was OK, great passer but his lack of scoring was unnerving as a fan. I guess there are some success stories tho, its just Im expecting someone to at least become an All-Star at the position.


Isnt that what the sixers are doing with turner now? He is so much better with the ball in his hands and I think we got rid of Holiday because of him

I was thinking of including him, I remember some talk of him being that kind of player in the league but then the Sixers went and drafted another prospective tall PG.

Run&Gun
10-10-2013, 06:05 PM
Lebron?

All those guys listed don't have the quickness of ball handling to play PG

This, although all these guy have pretty good handles especially Crawford and Evans, they also strive on just scoring the ball and distributing second, both these guys also don't take care of the ball that well when you ask them to transition.

Vasquez, Livingston and Rubio(sort of) are some guys people listed before are guys that do pretty good as tall PG, I think the problem with tall PG is their lateral quickness to guard other PGs on the defensive end and it's a lot harder to protect the ball against someone smaller so the big PGs have to work even harder on their handles than the small pgs.

I'd also like to add that I think transitioning to PG duties in the NBA is the hardest thing to develop they not only have to tighten their handles, but they have to run plays and always find the open man in addition to looking for their own shot, unless they grew up only playing as PG that's a tall order for anyone to handle, especially since the majority of the tall SG/PG you listed only played pg for a short amount of time.

Some argument can be made there are some tall players that have a high assit percentage as PGs like Iggy, Ginboli, Batum, even Miller and of course Lebron. But most of the time those guys except Lebron turn over the ball too much if they had as high of a usage rating as PG.

IndyRealist
10-10-2013, 06:18 PM
Because height is a rare commodity when you're talking about high school, where schools mostly recruit from their region. A guy projected to be 6'6" in high school probably plays center for any pucblic school. He's simply not taught to play point, which has a vastly different skillset than every other position.

Chronz
10-10-2013, 06:20 PM
This, although all these guy have pretty good handles especially Crawford and Evans, they also strive on just scoring the ball and distributing second, both these guys also don't take care of the ball that well when you ask them to transition.

Vasquez, Livingston and Rubio(sort of) are some guys people listed before are guys that do pretty good as tall PG, I think the problem with tall PG is their lateral quickness to guard other PGs on the defensive end and it's a lot harder to protect the ball against someone smaller so the big PGs have to work even harder on their handles than the small pgs.

I'd also like to add that I think transitioning to PG duties in the NBA is the hardest thing to develop they not only have to tighten their handles, but they have to run plays and always find the open man in addition to looking for their own shot, unless they grew up only playing as PG that's a tall order for anyone to handle, especially since the majority of the tall SG/PG you listed only played pg for a short amount of time.

Some argument can be made there are some tall players that have a high assit percentage as PGs like Iggy, Ginboli, Batum, even Miller and of course Lebron. But most of the time those guys except Lebron turn over the ball too much if they had as high of a usage rating as PG.
Good point, I thought their lack of shooting was a big reason for their specific failures but ball handling is prolly more important (Defense too). And like you said, simply transitioning to the PG is hard for ANYONE coming into the league, so its natural these rare breeds (tall PG's) produce less All-Stars.

I guess Bron should count, hes quite capable of handling the offensive/defensive chore but when he first came in even he had to be moved off the position, your right about Manu and Iggy being PG's to some extent, but they aren't full time PG's either.

I guess they do exist, they just take longer to develop and by then their teams are through running them exclusively as PG's.

b@llhog24
10-10-2013, 06:39 PM
For virtually all those guys their limitation was ball-handling. Ball-handlers tend to be shorter because shorter players, in general, have better coordination (and lower distance to the ground, better balance, lower center of gravity, etc.). MCW seems like he's a good enough ball handler to at least play a backup role, but obviously the biggest question other than his shooting at the moment is his man-to-man defense.

Bigs also tend to be slower, so you need to find a player that can guard the opposing PG anyway if your big PG cannot. Terrence Williams didn't play point at Louisville really - Pitino just helped him develop into an all-around player.

Pretty much this.

PutMeInCoach
10-10-2013, 06:53 PM
Didnt Pippen run the point for the Blazers for a couple of years? Or at least swing to the position frequently. I seem to remember him creating a lot of mismatches because of him being much more physical and obviously bigger then the opponents PG.

recap5
10-10-2013, 06:54 PM
Something that Magic did, which is obvious to even the average viewer, was use his body to protect the ball. He really exaggerated the maxim of keeping your body between the ball and your defender.

Magic was an incredible ball handler. At the top of the key he made himself lower to the ground in a post up and still was able to keep his head over his shoulder and maintain his court vision. I see Vazquez doing this to an extent. Im really excited to watch him this year.

Chronz
10-10-2013, 07:03 PM
Didnt Pippen run the point for the Blazers for a couple of years? Or at least swing to the position frequently. I seem to remember him creating a lot of mismatches because of him being much more physical and obviously bigger then the opponents PG.

You're right, when Damon Stoudemire was having issues (I forget if it was his attitude or injury), Scottie came in and played PG and the team enjoyed its best success that season. Pippen kind of reaffirms my belief of bigger players taking longer to become point-men. Pippen did say that he envisioned starting off as a SF but hopefully one day becoming a PG.

I guess they do exist, they just play other positions...... if that makes sense. I guess I should phrase this, why dont they ever stay as the primary PG, instead they are usually paired with diminutive shooting guards at the 1. Im guessing defense or roster composition is the main reason.

D-Leethal
10-10-2013, 07:07 PM
It makes more sense to just run a point forward type system with an off-the-ball PG than try and ask someone 6'7" to chase around PGs on the other end.

I also think the majority of tall players are normally playing big man positions starting at a young age and develop those skills instead. A lot of the time you see these tall PGs or big guys with handles, they usually have a massive growth spurt late in their childhood after playing little man positions until they were 16-17 years old.

krisxsong
10-10-2013, 07:10 PM
Seems like every prospective PG (taller than 6"5) that comes into the league eventually gets stuck back to playing the 2 or never finding a position. Terrence Williams, Iman Shumpert, Tyreke Evans, even going back to Jalen Rose, Steve Smith and Jamal Crawford, it seems the only tall PG that has thrived at the position was Penny and even he eventually had to be moved to the 2/3 (due to injuries).

Every year I look for one of these guys to break the trend, this year its Michael Carter-Williams. But they all seem to suffer the same fate. I know we will never see another Magic but why hasn't a poor mans version come along? What would Magic even look like in todays NBA?


Feel free to mention other big PG's but why do you think these prospects failed at transitioning to the point?

Jason Kidd was 6'4 215.

John Wall is 6'4-6'5.

Shaun Livingston is 6'7.

Anyways, it's natural for taller players to have a harder time playing the 1. Shorter players are usually more agile, they get lower to the ground which helps with protecting the ball/ball handling.

SugeKnight
10-10-2013, 07:36 PM
There will never be another magic.

SugeKnight
10-10-2013, 07:37 PM
Btw Steph Curry's 6'3

JWorthy42
10-10-2013, 07:38 PM
There will never be another magic.

This.

DallasTrilla23
10-10-2013, 07:38 PM
Iman was never really meant to play the point, he was just kind of forced to because we didn't have anyone else that year until we found Jeremy Lin. Michael Carter Williams i don't think will succeed either, and unlike Iman he probably can't shoot well enough to play the two, at least not yet.

I remember that one game against the grizzlies that year where he played pg and threw up like 20 shots by half time and the TNT crew was grilling him for it. The Knicks literally had no one at point that year

SugeKnight
10-10-2013, 07:41 PM
Also, Some people consider the best player in the world today a PG. And they're kind of right

smiddy012
10-10-2013, 07:49 PM
My 2 cents:

1. A lower center of gravity and shorter limbs may enable one to get rid of the rock and turn quicker.

2. I know MJ in particular could've been the best PG ever if he wanted to. I think though, historically, SGs tend to be your more all-around talented and physically gifted players, whereas all a PG really needs to be great offensively is quickness, passing, and long range. Meanwhile the SG has to get to the rim, be athletic, and be able to man-up a SF if he had to defensively. It's kind of like Lebron, he too could be the best PG ever, but he matches up so well against damn near everyone that you might as well match him up against the guys nearest his size.

3. If you're only 6 foot or whatever you only got so many options..

sp1derm00
10-10-2013, 08:01 PM
Probably because the talent pool for PG's is so high and the talent pool for SG's is lacking.

PutMeInCoach
10-10-2013, 08:16 PM
Probably because the talent pool for PG's is so high and the talent pool for SG's is lacking.

IMO I disagree on both accounts. I believe the SG position to be traditionally one of the MOST talented and deep positions and PG to be relatively weak forcing a lot of natural SGs (though generally undersized) into a PG role. Because of there being so few true PGs worth a damn at the pro level, a natural pg (even one lacking in talent or with diminishing skills) can more easily find a job.

Clippersfan86
10-10-2013, 09:03 PM
Lebron played PG a lot his first year or two. So did Lamar Odom.

Jamiecballer
10-10-2013, 09:20 PM
Seems like every prospective PG (taller than 6"5) that comes into the league eventually gets stuck back to playing the 2 or never finding a position. Terrence Williams, Iman Shumpert, Tyreke Evans, even going back to Jalen Rose, Steve Smith and Jamal Crawford, it seems the only tall PG that has thrived at the position was Penny and even he eventually had to be moved to the 2/3 (due to injuries).

Every year I look for one of these guys to break the trend, this year its Michael Carter-Williams. But they all seem to suffer the same fate. I know we will never see another Magic but why hasn't a poor mans version come along? What would Magic even look like in todays NBA?


Feel free to mention other big PG's but why do you think these prospects failed at transitioning to the point?

i always felt like Tracy McGrady could have been the guy but it seems like the basketball world always wants to put a guy on the tallest player he can possibly guard. it's like they are terrified of wasting height. and these other guys have made great points as well.

bagwell368
10-10-2013, 09:27 PM
I read most of the thread, and it's all about offense. Well if most PG's are quick, waterbug types, having a taller PG is at a disadvantage in man to man D based on physics all things being equal.

So the position tends to self define itself, as the others do. There are obvious counter examples at all the positions, but, the standards for the entire NBA are established, and change but slowly.

Mallarkey
10-10-2013, 09:57 PM
because they're not really taught the fundamentals. Look at the best point guards from Europe, a lot of them are 6'4"-6'5" or taller (Diamantidis, Spanoulis, Kalnietis, Milos Teodosic, Rubio - although he's an exception because naturally gifted etc)

IndyRealist
10-10-2013, 10:29 PM
It makes more sense to just run a point forward type system with an off-the-ball PG than try and ask someone 6'7" to chase around PGs on the other end.

I also think the majority of tall players are normally playing big man positions starting at a young age and develop those skills instead. A lot of the time you see these tall PGs or big guys with handles, they usually have a massive growth spurt late in their childhood after playing little man positions until they were 16-17 years old.

This. I think there's a lot of overanalysis and chicken-n-egg scenarios being thrown around. Are shorter players better ballhandlers so they're asked to play the point, or are shorter players forced to play the point so they end up developing ballhandling skills? What DL said is exactly true, any player over 6'5" is probably playing center at any public school in America. When the school only has 3000 or so people to choose from, they're not often going to get a 7fter to man the middle, let alone one coordinated enough to play basketball and free of bone/joint issues.

The simplest answer is that there just aren't enough super-tall people that are capable of playing basketball to go around. So players who are 6'6" or so are forced to play PF/C through their most formative years, then transition to PF or SF in college, instead of learning how to run the point.

There are of course exceptions to the general rule. Exceptionally quick, athletic tall players that a blind man could pick to go to the NBA tend to get played at their projected NBA position rather than being sorted by height, mostly because high school teams with NBA prospects on them tend to steamroll their competition anyway. AAU teams, being able to draw from multiple school districts or even an entire city, pool all the tall basketball-eligible players together, so players are more likely to get "bumped" down a few positions by the rare super-tall players.

THE MTL
10-10-2013, 10:34 PM
I think its because of the way th'ese players are brought up. Sure being 6'5" or 6'6" in the NBA is the normal height, but tell me how many 6'6" people you know or encounter on a routine basis?...very few. Alot of times these players are the biggest players on their team where by default they are needed to play taller positions.

Even in college, I'll use Taylor Hansborough at center or Michael Beasley at PF as an example. These guys played the taller positions in college because they were needed there and it made sense because everyone else was around those heights, but in the NBA you'll be crazy to put either one of them at their college position.

IndyRealist
10-10-2013, 10:53 PM
IMO I disagree on both accounts. I believe the SG position to be traditionally one of the MOST talented and deep positions and PG to be relatively weak forcing a lot of natural SGs (though generally undersized) into a PG role. Because of there being so few true PGs worth a damn at the pro level, a natural pg (even one lacking in talent or with diminishing skills) can more easily find a job.
I disagree. In high school your PG is probably an exceptionally skilled 5'6" player, who might end up a backup in college. There's almost zero chance he makes the NBA, despite playing PG since he was 6 and being far more skilled than anyone in the NBA. He's simply not tall enough, not athletic enough, not fast enough to keep up at that level. Guys who played SG in high school get bumped to PG in college, especially if they're under 6'. Then the same thing happens to those guys, a lot of which wash out at an NBA level due to lack of physical ability despite being more skilled. And thus the 6'-6'2" guys get moved to PG at an NBA level, not because they're extremely skilled, but because they're athletic enough to be in the NBA but too small to play their natural SG position.

MrfadeawayJB
10-10-2013, 11:30 PM
A former grizz Vasquez is a solid pg at 6'6 but he also plays the 2 sometimes. Another guy the grizz just signed Nic calathes is 6'5 and is a great player from what I've seen. I think he will hang in the league as a pure pg

MrfadeawayJB
10-10-2013, 11:35 PM
Also when Evan turner came out wasn't he projected to be a pg despite his 6'7 frame?

beasted86
10-11-2013, 12:07 AM
Iman was never really meant to play the point, he was just kind of forced to because we didn't have anyone else that year until we found Jeremy Lin. Michael Carter Williams i don't think will succeed either, and unlike Iman he probably can't shoot well enough to play the two, at least not yet.

Iman had no jumpshot coming into the league, and even now its streaky. And before you say anything I attribute last year's 3PT percentage to being in a groove, not his actual shooting mechanics and ability improving. See Andre Iguodala from 2012 for reference. Shot 39% from 3, and had people arguing with me that he was a changed shooter. This type of stuff can happen and carry on for a full season. It doesn't mean the player has really learned to shoot. The tell tale sign is always the FT%, and Shumpert's went down.

Both these guys can play the two because they have the size and athleticism. I think MCW will be just fine and turn out to be a ROY candidate.

bearadonisdna
10-11-2013, 12:56 AM
The pg has to handle the ball so often the tall guys really have to crouch to keep the ball at a low harder to steal level.

aman_13
10-11-2013, 01:47 AM
How good would Magic be in today's game?

amos1er
10-11-2013, 03:27 AM
Odom was supposed to be the next Magic at one point. Had he stayed clean he might have. I heard that the Bulls were gonna take Odom number one overall over Elton Brand, then he admitted to the owner that he smoked pot before every game and they passed. Dude would have been sick if he had a shred of work ethic and lived up to his potential.

amos1er
10-11-2013, 03:29 AM
How good would Magic be in today's game?

Best PG in the game... Though he could have had trouble defending the smaller guards... I'm sure they would have paired him up with a Byron Scott type 2 guard to defend the CP3's, Westbrooks, and Tony Parkers of the league.

PhillyFaninLA
10-11-2013, 04:14 AM
A lot of bigger guys that have the skill set to play PG also have the athleticism to play forward or shoot well enough to play Shooting Guard.

2-ONE-5
10-11-2013, 09:59 AM
Isnt that what the sixers are doing with turner now? He is so much better with the ball in his hands and I think we got rid of Holiday because of him

Turner is starting at the 2 and MCW at the 1 but ET will get to handle the ball kinda like Iggy did. But by no means was Holiday dealt to allow Turner to run the point it was bcuz it got the best haul to help set up the future bcuz there was no interest in Turner during the draft.

As for tall PG's its rare bcuz even growing up someone who has those skills is going to be forced to play other positions. MCW is going to be a pretty good PG bcuz is a strong defender and distributor.

2-ONE-5
10-11-2013, 10:01 AM
IMO I disagree on both accounts. I believe the SG position to be traditionally one of the MOST talented and deep positions and PG to be relatively weak forcing a lot of natural SGs (though generally undersized) into a PG role. Because of there being so few true PGs worth a damn at the pro level, a natural pg (even one lacking in talent or with diminishing skills) can more easily find a job.

PG is the deepest position in the NBA...

Rockice_8
10-11-2013, 10:19 AM
Seems like every prospective PG (taller than 6"5) that comes into the league eventually gets stuck back to playing the 2 or never finding a position. Terrence Williams, Iman Shumpert, Tyreke Evans, even going back to Jalen Rose, Steve Smith and Jamal Crawford, it seems the only tall PG that has thrived at the position was Penny and even he eventually had to be moved to the 2/3 (due to injuries).

Every year I look for one of these guys to break the trend, this year its Michael Carter-Williams. But they all seem to suffer the same fate. I know we will never see another Magic but why hasn't a poor mans version come along? What would Magic even look like in todays NBA?


Feel free to mention other big PG's but why do you think these prospects failed at transitioning to the point?


None of those guys really should have been PG's. They were just taller guys with bad jumpers (not sure how Jalen was coming out) that teams hoped they could find a spot for cause they go other things well. Most taller guys I guess just don't have the handle or the vision to play it consistently. It's tough having an off guard that can't shoot.

D-Leethal
10-11-2013, 10:33 AM
Iman had no jumpshot coming into the league, and even now its streaky. And before you say anything I attribute last year's 3PT percentage to being in a groove, not his actual shooting mechanics and ability improving. See Andre Iguodala from 2012 for reference. Shot 39% from 3, and had people arguing with me that he was a changed shooter. This type of stuff can happen and carry on for a full season. It doesn't mean the player has really learned to shoot. The tell tale sign is always the FT%, and Shumpert's went down.

Both these guys can play the two because they have the size and athleticism. I think MCW will be just fine and turn out to be a ROY candidate.

Shumps jumper was never broken, he just needed the reps. He has damn near perfect form throughout, takes his time, sets his feet and gets great elevation. A lot of Knicks fans including myself pegged him to eventually be a 40% 3 point shooter, we just didn't think it would come in year 2. By the looks of his 7-7 performance it doesn't look like that jumper is going anywhere but up anytime soon. Shooting is something that nearly every player improves in the NBA. Shumps jumper is here to stay.

He always showed flashes with his jumper - a big reason we fell in love with him is because he drilled 12 straight three pointers in his Knicks workout and left D'Antoni with a major hardon. Just because he couldn't score efficiently in college or his rookie year didn't mean his set jump shot was broken. Shooting should be considered a separate entity than scoring.

Jesse2272
10-11-2013, 10:48 AM
Iman had no jumpshot coming into the league, and even now its streaky. And before you say anything I attribute last year's 3PT percentage to being in a groove, not his actual shooting mechanics and ability improving. See Andre Iguodala from 2012 for reference. Shot 39% from 3, and had people arguing with me that he was a changed shooter. This type of stuff can happen and carry on for a full season. It doesn't mean the player has really learned to shoot. The tell tale sign is always the FT%, and Shumpert's went down.


Both these guys can play the two because they have the size and athleticism. I think MCW will be just fine and turn out to be a ROY candidate.
Ignorance is bliss bro, his shot is money, coming off the injury, getting around screens and his drives were suspect, again after injury, 1 pre game, lets judge him after a few games

2-ONE-5
10-11-2013, 11:50 AM
woah Shumperts shot was never "money" or else he would have been a lotto pick

Jesse2272
10-11-2013, 11:52 AM
woah Shumperts shot was never "money" or else he would have been a lotto pick

his mechanics, his improvement was evident

Chronz
10-11-2013, 12:47 PM
Shump had no jumper in College tho and his first year it was still sporadic. And I get the feeling guys who play PG have a higher standard for shooting, not just catching and shooting like Shump seems to be thriving with.

Jesse2272
10-11-2013, 12:50 PM
Shump shouldnt be in a PG convo

Chronz
10-11-2013, 12:56 PM
Lebron played PG a lot his first year or two. So did Lamar Odom.
Bron started off as a PG, then had to be moved for one reason or another. They even downgraded in talent and potential just to get Bron off the 1. Dont recall too much of Odom, he played some PG but I dont think he played the position full time either.

Chronz
10-11-2013, 01:03 PM
Shump shouldnt be in a PG convo

Thats not what Shump said coming into the draft.

Jesse2272
10-11-2013, 01:09 PM
Thats not what Shump said coming into the draft.

evolution

"it is what it is"

Chronz
10-11-2013, 01:12 PM
i always felt like Tracy McGrady could have been the guy but it seems like the basketball world always wants to put a guy on the tallest player he can possibly guard. it's like they are terrified of wasting height. and these other guys have made great points as well.

Yup, its a shame that Grant Hill couldn't stay healthy because Doc was running a Tmac-Miller-Hill trio on the perimeter. Tmac had the length and athleticism to defend PG's and they would either post up whomever the opposing midget was defending or just run that guy off a few pindowns with the knowledge that the contest would be short. Would have liked seeing what that offense could look like with more reps.

PutMeInCoach
10-11-2013, 01:51 PM
I think we were talking about talent at different levels. I was taking it as NBA talent, not as talent from lower levels. In the NBA, I can find a talented SG easier than I can find a capable PG.

COOLbeans
10-11-2013, 02:04 PM
Baron Davis is 6'4

Kashmir13579
10-11-2013, 06:55 PM
Iman had no jumpshot coming into the league, and even now its streaky. And before you say anything I attribute last year's 3PT percentage to being in a groove, not his actual shooting mechanics and ability improving. See Andre Iguodala from 2012 for reference. Shot 39% from 3, and had people arguing with me that he was a changed shooter. This type of stuff can happen and carry on for a full season. It doesn't mean the player has really learned to shoot. The tell tale sign is always the FT%, and Shumpert's went down.

Both these guys can play the two because they have the size and athleticism. I think MCW will be just fine and turn out to be a ROY candidate.

We'll just have to see after this season. He was like 8-8 in our first pre-season game.

Why do you have high hopes for MCW?? Did you watch a lot of him in college. Now thats a what i call a broken jumper.

5ass
10-11-2013, 07:27 PM
Its funny that you mention that. The magic are looking to make oladipo their PG. Henny says its "the future of the nba".

Chronz
10-30-2013, 09:20 PM
what a ****ing debut. anyone believing in MCW?

Gibby23
10-30-2013, 09:29 PM
what a ****ing debut. anyone believing in MCW?

Crazy... I thought he was ok in college, but nothing popped off the screen. He got a lot of steals, but I thought it had to do with the zone. I guess not.

Chronz
10-30-2013, 09:30 PM
Im trying to wrap my head around what just happened, did MCW just outplay the F.MVP/MVP/BEST Player in his debut? Man, I wish basketball were so stable that performances like this could signify the sure fire ascension of star but in all likelihood, MCW ends up shooting like 39% this year.

Gibby23
10-30-2013, 09:34 PM
Im trying to wrap my head around what just happened, did MCW just outplay the F.MVP/MVP/BEST Player in his debut? Man, I wish basketball were so stable that performances like this could signify the sure fire ascension of star but in all likelihood, MCW ends up shooting like 39% this year.

He might shoot 39%, but he can improve that with time. He has shown in college and his 1st game that he has great vision and can rack up assists and get steals.

Swashcuff
10-30-2013, 09:34 PM
I just had the longest boner I've had in years, well at least since A.I. left the NBA :love:

Swashcuff
10-30-2013, 09:40 PM
MCW isn't going to be a great scorer and I really think he'd be a 6 apg type of player but if he can match the type of activity he showed tonight on a nightly basis. He'd be a special player, really needs a consistent jumper however.

Clippersfan86
10-30-2013, 09:44 PM
His offense isn't amazing but I think he will be a lot more than a 6 apg type player Swash. He had some really high IQ passes tonight that surprised me. I think something like 12 ppg, 8-9 apg, 3 rpg, 2 spg is possible for his rookie year if he gets a green light by the team and big minutes consistently.

Chronz
10-30-2013, 09:51 PM
MCW isn't going to be a great scorer and I really think he'd be a 6 apg type of player but if he can match the type of activity he showed tonight on a nightly basis. He'd be a special player, really needs a consistent jumper however.
Im always intrigued by players his size with his skillset (hence the threads creation) but I really need more games before I start projecting anything. I was expecting another Livingston with better off ball defense/worse on ball d, but he seems abit more athletic than I expected. Good game to watch tho

Swashcuff
10-30-2013, 09:56 PM
Im always intrigued by players his size with his skillset (hence the threads creation) but I really need more games before I start projecting anything. I was expecting another Livingston with better off ball defense/worse on ball d, but he seems abit more athletic than I expected. Good game to watch tho

He really didn't look like anything special in the preseason, Summer League he was quite solid especially passing the basketball but his sub par preseason lead a lot of us 76ers fans to believe that he is far from being a refined PG, the effort he put forth tonight however was top tier. Would love to see him play like that on a nightly basis.

Clippersfan86
10-30-2013, 09:58 PM
Swash in summer league didn't he average like 7 turnovers per game or something nuts? I remember watching a few games and he looked good outside of the fact that he always had a fu** ton of turnovers.

Swashcuff
10-30-2013, 10:01 PM
Swash in summer league didn't he average like 7 turnovers per game or something nuts? I remember watching a few games and he looked good outside of the fact that he always had a fu** ton of turnovers.

His turnovers were a major concern but his passing/assists was a bright spot. It was very refreshing seeing him turn it over just once.

Clippersfan86
10-30-2013, 10:04 PM
His turnovers were a major concern but his passing/assists was a bright spot. It was very refreshing seeing him turn it over just once.

Yea the 12 to 1 ratio tonight was the most impressive thing to me tonight, along with those 9 steals. I heard that his only turnover was on a questionable traveling call too? Imagine if the dude finished with 12 assists, 0 turnovers lol?

NJrockPD
10-30-2013, 10:05 PM
Isnt that what the sixers are doing with turner now? He is so much better with the ball in his hands and I think we got rid of Holiday because of him

No they are tanking to get a top pick in this years draft.

SMH!
10-30-2013, 11:19 PM
Yea the 12 to 1 ratio tonight was the most impressive thing to me tonight, along with those 9 steals. I heard that his only turnover was on a questionable traveling call too? Imagine if the dude finished with 12 assists, 0 turnovers lol?

It was a questionable travel, gotta see the replay again to determine it. But he played great, took smart shots, made his 3's,made great passes and was stealing everything!

smood999
10-30-2013, 11:59 PM
I dont watch much college, I just listen to the breakdowns and interviews of the incoming prospects. And I can tell you thats not how Iman saw himself. His role changed alot at GT and he wound up playing more off the ball his final days but he was still pegged as a PG/SG (he was in the PG class IIRC) and when asked if he saw himself as more of a pure point vs a combo guard he said "Im definitely a pure Point". So the guy obviously wanted to succeed at the position but you might be right about the team never thinking that was an option. Still have to wonder why they would try him before Lin at that position tho.


Obviously since Magic, hence me bringing him up in the following paragraph

Shumpert was a point guard in HS and in college...

sunsfan88
10-31-2013, 03:58 AM
There's no reason for him to not be as good as Rondo.

JayW_1023
10-31-2013, 10:35 AM
His name is Greivis Vasquez and he is friggin underrated.

blahblahyoutoo
10-31-2013, 11:03 AM
so much work protecting the ball. A lot of taller players would have to bend a little lower to protect the ball smaller players could easily swipe the ball.

but thats just one of the many theories we're about to hear.

cuz it's true.

blahblahyoutoo
10-31-2013, 11:06 AM
My 2 cents:

1. A lower center of gravity and shorter limbs may enable one to get rid of the rock and turn quicker.

2. I know MJ in particular could've been the best PG ever if he wanted to. I think though, historically, SGs tend to be your more all-around talented and physically gifted players, whereas all a PG really needs to be great offensively is quickness, passing, and long range. Meanwhile the SG has to get to the rim, be athletic, and be able to man-up a SF if he had to defensively. It's kind of like Lebron, he too could be the best PG ever, but he matches up so well against damn near everyone that you might as well match him up against the guys nearest his size.

3. If you're only 6 foot or whatever you only got so many options..

MJs handles weren't his strong suit. he's actually not a very good ball handler.

unless by MJ, you mean magic johnson.

blahblahyoutoo
10-31-2013, 11:09 AM
This. I think there's a lot of overanalysis and chicken-n-egg scenarios being thrown around. Are shorter players better ballhandlers so they're asked to play the point, or are shorter players forced to play the point so they end up developing ballhandling skills? What DL said is exactly true, any player over 6'5" is probably playing center at any public school in America. When the school only has 3000 or so people to choose from, they're not often going to get a 7fter to man the middle, let alone one coordinated enough to play basketball and free of bone/joint issues.

The simplest answer is that there just aren't enough super-tall people that are capable of playing basketball to go around. So players who are 6'6" or so are forced to play PF/C through their most formative years, then transition to PF or SF in college, instead of learning how to run the point.

There are of course exceptions to the general rule. Exceptionally quick, athletic tall players that a blind man could pick to go to the NBA tend to get played at their projected NBA position rather than being sorted by height, mostly because high school teams with NBA prospects on them tend to steamroll their competition anyway. AAU teams, being able to draw from multiple school districts or even an entire city, pool all the tall basketball-eligible players together, so players are more likely to get "bumped" down a few positions by the rare super-tall players.

it's not a chicken/egg scenario. it's physics and human physiology.
if you're shorter and hence lower to the ground, the ball doens't have to bounce up as high making it easier to protect from steals.
you're also quicker and more agile.

KnickNyKnick
10-31-2013, 11:39 AM
My 2 cents:

1. A lower center of gravity and shorter limbs may enable one to get rid of the rock and turn quicker.

2. I know MJ in particular could've been the best PG ever if he wanted to. I think though, historically, SGs tend to be your more all-around talented and physically gifted players, whereas all a PG really needs to be great offensively is quickness, passing, and long range. Meanwhile the SG has to get to the rim, be athletic, and be able to man-up a SF if he had to defensively. It's kind of like Lebron, he too could be the best PG ever, but he matches up so well against damn near everyone that you might as well match him up against the guys nearest his size.

3. If you're only 6 foot or whatever you only got so many options..

unless you're AI ;)

FYL_McVeezy
10-31-2013, 11:51 AM
Seems like every prospective PG (taller than 6"5) that comes into the league eventually gets stuck back to playing the 2 or never finding a position. Terrence Williams, Iman Shumpert, Tyreke Evans, even going back to Jalen Rose, Steve Smith and Jamal Crawford, it seems the only tall PG that has thrived at the position was Penny and even he eventually had to be moved to the 2/3 (due to injuries).

Every year I look for one of these guys to break the trend, this year its Michael Carter-Williams. But they all seem to suffer the same fate. I know we will never see another Magic but why hasn't a poor mans version come along? What would Magic even look like in todays NBA?


Feel free to mention other big PG's but why do you think these prospects failed at transitioning to the point?

Magic would prob be moved to the 3 and play point forward in today's NBA LOL

Chronz
10-31-2013, 01:06 PM
Magic would prob be moved to the 3 and play point forward in today's NBA LOL

For some reason I wouldn't doubt it. Magic, the greatest SF of All-Time....

He did play PF to start and end his career tho

THE MTL
10-31-2013, 02:02 PM
Seems like every prospective PG (taller than 6"5) that comes into the league eventually gets stuck back to playing the 2 or never finding a position. Terrence Williams, Iman Shumpert, Tyreke Evans, even going back to Jalen Rose, Steve Smith and Jamal Crawford, it seems the only tall PG that has thrived at the position was Penny and even he eventually had to be moved to the 2/3 (due to injuries).

Every year I look for one of these guys to break the trend, this year its Michael Carter-Williams. But they all seem to suffer the same fate. I know we will never see another Magic but why hasn't a poor mans version come along? What would Magic even look like in todays NBA?


Feel free to mention other big PG's but why do you think these prospects failed at transitioning to the point?

Magic would prob be moved to the 3 and play point forward in today's NBA LOL

I agree with Magic's scoring ability and height, he would definitely be moved to the 3

ztilzer31
10-31-2013, 02:28 PM
Everyone above 6 foot 5 and below 6 foot 10 are too busy trying to be Jordan.

N3TS
10-31-2013, 05:00 PM
I think the main reason why it's hard to find tall pgs' is at young ages coaches want their bigger guys to play what they think is best for them. So a bigger guy is more likely to play another position and develop a skill set better suited for that type of game.

TrueFan420
10-31-2013, 05:07 PM
Livingston comes to mind as a tall pg that would have been good but had injuries

Bishnoff
10-31-2013, 05:45 PM
Seems like every prospective PG (taller than 6"5) that comes into the league eventually gets stuck back to playing the 2 or never finding a position. Terrence Williams, Iman Shumpert, Tyreke Evans, even going back to Jalen Rose, Steve Smith and Jamal Crawford, it seems the only tall PG that has thrived at the position was Penny and even he eventually had to be moved to the 2/3 (due to injuries).

Every year I look for one of these guys to break the trend, this year its Michael Carter-Williams. But they all seem to suffer the same fate. I know we will never see another Magic but why hasn't a poor mans version come along? What would Magic even look like in todays NBA?


Feel free to mention other big PG's but why do you think these prospects failed at transitioning to the point?

None of those guys are pass-first and were probably all better suited to playing SG.

Most tall "PGs" coming out of high school or college have generally had a big height advantage growing up and have relied on their scoring ability over their playmaking ability. The only reason why they are considered as "PGs" is because they brought the ball up the court, not because they have great handles, great court vision, or can run a NBA offense.

MCW (and Dante Exum to a lesser extent, once he makes it to the NBA) should break the mould.

NoahH
10-31-2013, 06:46 PM
I think it has to do with the fact that if you're taller then you're forced into a more of a SG / SF role in high school and college, therefore your skills as a PG are not as refined and developed as someone who's shorter and forced into a PG role because of their size. Maybe..?

xabial
11-01-2013, 02:01 AM
grievous vasquez is a really good point men and he's 6'6
pre injury livingston was an above average PG

So there are "succes stories" aswell

You just named 2 PG's out of 32 teams. Thats a very insignificant number. I believe your only proving the OP's point.

Post-injury Livingston doesn't count but man that dude was a giant for the PG position at 6-7. :drool:

minato_17
11-01-2013, 10:41 AM
Seems like every prospective PG (taller than 6"5) that comes into the league eventually gets stuck back to playing the 2 or never finding a position. Terrence Williams, Iman Shumpert, Tyreke Evans, even going back to Jalen Rose, Steve Smith and Jamal Crawford, it seems the only tall PG that has thrived at the position was Penny and even he eventually had to be moved to the 2/3 (due to injuries).

Every year I look for one of these guys to break the trend, this year its Michael Carter-Williams. But they all seem to suffer the same fate. I know we will never see another Magic but why hasn't a poor mans version come along? What would Magic even look like in todays NBA?


Feel free to mention other big PG's but why do you think these prospects failed at transitioning to the point?


Vasquez is a tall PG. He is 6'6''. Very good playmaker.

LBJ is the PG of Miami Heat. He is 6'8". He is this era's Magic Johnson. Chalmers and Cole are not playmakers they are spotup shooters. They just bring the ball down and let LBJ set the table for the Heat.

Magic would be excellent in offense. Posting up on smaller guys, passing to open teammates, and he will be deadly on fastbreaks. Defensively though, i don't think he can keep up with the very quick guards of today. Unless that guard has no shooting(Rondo, Rubio). He can't guard CP3, Curry, TP, WB, and Rose.

MCW could be the next great tall Pg but you'll never know. His debut is amazing though.

Trueblue2
11-03-2013, 02:28 AM
Andrew Harrison and Marcus Smart both have the opportunity to be just that in this upcoming draft. Smart is 6'4" but I wouldn't be surprised to see him grow an inch when they list heights, anyway 6'4" is still tall for PG in today's NBA.

warfelg
11-03-2013, 08:18 AM
It's the height game in youth bball. As a coach you see a kid that might be the best ball handler, but is the tallest kid so the coach sticks him elsewhere rather than let him use his talents to the best of his ability.