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More-Than-Most
10-05-2013, 08:16 PM
There is always talk of the 3 so how about we rank from top to bottom of the best teams they were on in terms of talent. Disregard those 3 and list it of which of their teams throughout their careers were the best teams overall.

I thought Jordan had one of the most talented teams ever or atleast from the 90s until now but others have made cases against it. So list them

tredigs
10-05-2013, 08:36 PM
Kobe had the most years of elite coaching + teammates, followed by Jordan, then James.

Kobe had his first 8 years with elite coaching + teammates. Then another 5-6 once Pau came aboard. Essentially, most of his career he's had the best coaching and a top tier cast.

For Jordan it would be year 2 of Scottie + Grant and beyond. Though they didn't really hit their stride until Pippen fully came into his own in year 3 and they had year 1 of Phil Jackson. But including both, he had 8 years of greatness around him. If not 7. So about half of his career.

For James it's tougher depending on how you want to rank those Cavs teams. Some will want to claim they were scrubs without him, others will say they were elite and only struggled without him because they were built for him. The reality is somewhere in the middle, so let's call it 2 seasons of elite help (though obviously nothing close to the seasons we're including with Kobe / MJ). Then there's the 3 in Miami. So, 5 years or about half his career.

KnicksorBust
10-05-2013, 08:40 PM
People always forget the **** Jordan played with early in his career.

Kobe clearly had the most help but the irony is that LeBron's greatness may always be tarnished for some by Wade/Bosh.

jerellh528
10-05-2013, 08:59 PM
the years their teams were the best overall were the years they won the championship. Maybe not the two lakers teams that won rings most recently, I think Boston was a better team than them.

J4KOP99
10-05-2013, 09:09 PM
Kobe Bryant from the lakers?

ManRam
10-05-2013, 09:10 PM
This is something that is way too fluid.

LeBron and MJ didn't have much early on. Kobe has had waves of **** mixed in with waves of amazingness.

I do think in the end the years Kobe had Shaq with him kinda trump the rest. LeBron has Wade and Bosh, but Wade didn't at all play like an all-world player in either of their two championship runs.

If you factor in coaching then that throws another monkey wrench into things.

I'd prefer diving into things a bit more before spitting out an answer, but if we just look at their championship years than Kobe has had the most help. I struggle deciding between the other two.

But none ever won with no help...which is something that many bashed MJ and LeBron for not doing for much of their early careers. Which looks funny in hindsight.

More-Than-Most
10-05-2013, 09:32 PM
This is something that is way too fluid.

LeBron and MJ didn't have much early on. Kobe has had waves of **** mixed in with waves of amazingness.

I do think in the end the years Kobe had Shaq with him kinda trump the rest. LeBron has Wade and Bosh, but Wade didn't at all play like an all-world player in either of their two championship runs.

If you factor in coaching then that throws another monkey wrench into things.

I'd prefer diving into things a bit more before spitting out an answer, but if we just look at their championship years than Kobe has had the most help. I struggle deciding between the other two.

But none ever won with no help...which is something that many bashed MJ and LeBron for not doing for much of their early careers. Which looks funny in hindsight.

I dont want just the championship years being factors but every year from start to finish that each has played listed from top to bottom in terms of talent. Even their worst years of the bunch in terms of talent I am wondering who had the most... Opinions are gonna differ but I love that you would rather do the homework than just throw out an opinion. :clap:

PowerHouse
10-05-2013, 09:40 PM
Kobe clearly had the most help but the irony is that LeBron's greatness may always be tarnished for some by Wade/Bosh.

How much help did Kobe have in '09 and '10? Sure he had Gasol but who else? Luke Walton? Adam Morrison? DJ Mbenga? Jordan Farmar? Sun Yu? Josh Powell? Not exactly a ton of help on those squads.

smiddy012
10-05-2013, 09:49 PM
I only remember 93 Bulls and on, but to me, once they added Rodman, it added a whole new dimension to their intimidation factor (and defense obviously). His game and demeanor was a perfect compliment to MJ and Scottie, whereas a lot of people at the beginning thought it was never going to work cuz of Rodman's ego/head.

Now to compare Scottie/Rodman to Wade/Bosh, I'm not sure that the former is more talented overall, but in respect to the number 1 guy, they had better overall comparability (on both sides of the court). And at this point that's safe to say cuz both trios have had 3 years together. Outside of those trios, the comparison between teams is a wash. Lebron though has certainly had the crappy end of the stick until his decision.

Teeboy1487
10-05-2013, 09:52 PM
How much help did Kobe have in '09 and '10? Sure he had Gasol but who else? Luke Walton? Adam Morrison? DJ Mbenga? Jordan Farmar? Sun Yu? Josh Powell? Not exactly a ton of help on those squads.

Other than Odom. None. Those Laker teams had no benches especially the 2010 team. Bynum was often injured. When Bynum had his break out year, we got swept. Don't underrate Gasol in those years because he was amazing until 2011. Of the 3, I think Kobe and Lebron had equal help. Lebron winning with two allstars and a plethora of all time shooters and Kobe playing with a prime Shaq.

tredigs
10-05-2013, 09:52 PM
How much help did Kobe have in '09 and '10? Sure he had Gasol but who else? Luke Walton? Adam Morrison? DJ Mbenga? Jordan Farmar? Sun Yu? Josh Powell? Not exactly a ton of help on those squads.

Hahaha this is like saying "who did Lebron have as help in Miami? Sure he had Wade, but who else? Norris Cole? Joel Anthony? Juwan Howard? Rashard Lewis? Not exactly a ton of help".

I'll just hope you're trollin in ignoring young Bynum/Odom/Ariza/Artest, etc.

Bostonjorge
10-05-2013, 09:57 PM
I only remember 93 Bulls and on, but to me, once they added Rodman, it added a whole new dimension to their intimidation factor (and defense obviously). His game and demeanor was a perfect compliment to MJ and Scottie, whereas a lot of people at the beginning thought it was never going to work cuz of Rodman's ego/head.

Now to compare Scottie/Rodman to Wade/Bosh, I'm not sure that the former is more talented overall, but in respect to the number 1 guy, they had better overall comparability (on both sides of the court). And at this point that's safe to say cuz both trios have had 3 years together. Outside of those trios, the comparison between teams is a wash. Lebron though has certainly had the crappy end of the stick until his decision.

Wade/bosh are better then most of the league players right now. Pippen/rodman might be better players but rodman was not in the top ten big men PF and C in the league. Wade and bosh are both ranked higher in today's nba then pippen and rodman were when they played.

Shlumpledink
10-05-2013, 10:05 PM
Kobe has had some nightmarish teams and some terrible coaches. The only good coach Kobe has really had has been Phil Jackson. Some would argue that Doug Collins is a good coach and that Jordan shouldn't have ran him out of town, but he did get set up with Phil jackson and the rest is history.

Lebron James' best coach was Mike Brown, who Lebron won the award for. Advantage Lebron James in having the worst coach.

Jordan had the best team, when you consider that the team was designed to get the most out of Jordan's ability. When you look at Kobe's teaming up with Shaq, Kobe was there to make Shaq better.

Lebron James had teams that were designed to make him better as well. They were not star players, Larry Hughes is the one that was supposed to help Lebron James the most, but did not do so. Lebron had a team of shooters and guys who could play defense. This is a more than adequate team.

The team that Lebron won his championship with was stacked, as well as the team afterwards. Not particularly coached very well, but was still stacked at almost all positions. Though Lebron's greatness is what really put them over the top. Disadvantage to Lebron here, and I believe Kobe wins out here.

So, I believe MJ had the most help, although I am sure that is not going to be a popular statement, it is one I believe to be true because his team was designed to help him succeed with team success and individual success, after having his worst teams before he hit his prime while also having the best coach. You could argue that Kobe's worst teams came during his prime, and his best were before his prime but also having the best coach. Lebron had the most help with players, but not the best coaching. I think players are a lot more important than coaches.

So the order for me, goes MJ/Lebron/Kobe.

Byronicle
10-05-2013, 10:12 PM
How much help did Kobe have in '09 and '10? Sure he had Gasol but who else? Luke Walton? Adam Morrison? DJ Mbenga? Jordan Farmar? Sun Yu? Josh Powell? Not exactly a ton of help on those squads.

Classic!

He had Lamar Odom, Andrew Bynum, Trevor Ariza/Ron Artest throughout those years

Byronicle
10-05-2013, 10:18 PM
I don't know how people can argue that MJ had the most help

Because if I do recall...he played with 0 franchise players. None of his team mates did anything before or after MJ. They were all just a perfect fit centered around MJ. Even Pippen arguably couldn't do it without MJ

LBJ had 2 franchise players in Bosh and Wade. Bosh is the Raptor's 2nd best player, and he probably would've been more relevant if they didn't litter him with garbage, and Wade was the 2nd best SG currently in the league to Kobe for a meaningful time.

Kobe had 2 franchise players in Shaq and Gasol. Again, Shaq was Magic's franchise and was a beast/HOF, a top 10 player of ALL TIME. Gasol was a franchise player in Memphis.

PowerHouse
10-05-2013, 10:19 PM
Hahaha this is like saying "who did Lebron have as help in Miami? Sure he had Wade, but who else? Norris Cole? Joel Anthony? Juwan Howard? Rashard Lewis? Not exactly a ton of help".

I'll just hope you're trollin in ignoring young Bynum/Odom/Ariza/Artest, etc.

Ah yes Odom, and how many all-star teams did he make?

Youre right injury-plagued Bynum who was playing at about 50% those years.

Its absolutely nothing like comparing them to the Heat.

Byronicle
10-05-2013, 10:36 PM
Ah yes Odom, and how many all-star teams did he make?

Youre right injury-plagued Bynum who was playing at about 50% those years.

Its absolutely nothing like comparing them to the Heat.

Lol don't be a homer because All Star appearances doesn't mean Odom wasn't any help. Odom was in his prime during those years and whenever Bynum was out, Odom was a 20-10 guy waiting

And Bynum was playing 70% of those games, that is a pretty big miscalculation

tredigs
10-05-2013, 10:41 PM
Ah yes Odom, and how many all-star teams did he make?

Youre right injury-plagued Bynum who was playing at about 50% those years.

Its absolutely nothing like comparing them to the Heat.

Ah yes, the ultra versatile playmaking big who's capable of 15/10/5 with solid D any given night. Yes, I'd say that's a pretty glaring omission junior. You literally left out his 4 biggest assets in those years outside of Pau - who was beyond critical and the reason why they even made the finals, let alone won it.

Hawkeye15
10-05-2013, 11:12 PM
LeBron and MJ didn't have chip help the first 7 years of their career. Kobe had it immediately.

Pretty simple

Bruno
10-05-2013, 11:36 PM
do I have to be the first person to mention that Kobe had the least amount of help out of any top ten player by far during what is usually a players physical peak from 26-29? He gets criticized for never pairing a championship with his most dominant season, and that's a big reason why. For all the help he had early on in his career, the dude was paired up with garbage during his physical peak; and yes that matter considering the fact that many of you don't even give him his due for his contributions to the Laker three-peat in the early 2000's. of course it doesn't negate the help from 99-2004, or 2008-2011, but least at least make note briefly.

koreancabbage
10-05-2013, 11:48 PM
do I have to be the first person to mention that Kobe had the least amount of help out of any top ten player by far during what is usually a players physical peak from 26-29? He gets criticized for never pairing a championship with his most dominant season, and that's a big reason why. For all the help he had early on in his career, the dude was paired up with garbage during his physical peak; and yes that matter considering the fact that many of you don't even give him his due for his contributions to the Laker three-peat in the early 2000's. of course it doesn't negate the help from 99-2004, or 2008-2011, but least at least make note briefly.

first, he played with Shaq, then he played with Gasol, one of the best big men in the league, albiet soft, but a perfect player in the triangle offense, he could shoot, score, post up, play defense (flopping to some extent) but Kobe had help just like anyone.

I like the Lakers but I would have given the playoff MVP to Gasol instead of one of Kobe's MVPs. Just the way Gasol played that year and throughout the playoffs was truly a great performance and I found myself saying "if it wasn't for Gasol ..." quite a few times during that run.

Kobe had tons of help through great role players and stars alike.

PowerHouse
10-05-2013, 11:59 PM
Lol don't be a homer because All Star appearances doesn't mean Odom wasn't any help. Odom was in his prime during those years and whenever Bynum was out, Odom was a 20-10 guy waiting

And Bynum was playing 70% of those games, that is a pretty big miscalculation

Oh excuse me, 70% I didnt realize Dr. Byronicle was on the thread.

Every championship team has some good players. Im just saying that out of all NBA championship teams throughout the years, those two Laker teams were a little more top heavy with most responsibility on the shoulders of one man. Not too much different from the 90s Bulls teams. Phil's experience coaching those Bulls teams and implementing his system was vital in making it work.

koreancabbage
10-06-2013, 12:04 AM
Oh excuse me, 70% I didnt realize Dr. Byronicle was on the thread.

Every championship team has some good players. Im just saying that out of all NBA championship teams throughout the years, those two Laker teams were a little more top heavy with most responsibility on the shoulders of one man. Not too much different from the 90s Bulls teams. Phil's experience coaching those Bulls teams and implementing his system was vital in making it work.

there we go, Kobe and Jordan had help (albeit not the way people look at it.)

Chronz
10-06-2013, 12:36 AM
Do we account for RS/playoff availability and form? For instance, how big of a factor was Pippen in MJ's final year? And how do you feel about the strength of the overall league?

FlashBolt
10-06-2013, 12:40 AM
I'm in awe of the tremendous amount of simplistic thinking from these posters. What Scottie and Rodman brought to the table far surpasses what Wade and Bosh brings. Sure, you'd have a better chance of winning with just Wade and Bosh, but Scottie and Rodman are possibly the best complementary pieces a superstar could ask for. Two of the best defenders, superb rebounding by the greatest rebounder, and playmaking.

Chronz
10-06-2013, 12:52 AM
I'm in awe of the tremendous amount of simplistic thinking from these posters. What Scottie and Rodman brought to the table far surpasses what Wade and Bosh brings. Sure, you'd have a better chance of winning with just Wade and Bosh, but Scottie and Rodman are possibly the best complementary pieces a superstar could ask for. Two of the best defenders, superb rebounding by the greatest rebounder, and playmaking.

Depends on what you value, the ability of a player like Bosh to make a bad team respectable, or the ability of a player like Rodman who can turn a good team great or a great team into an All-Time great team. Those Pistons were like sub .500 without him one year or something like that. He could also be a complete detriment if he wasn't in the right situation.

jerellh528
10-06-2013, 01:13 AM
do I have to be the first person to mention that Kobe had the least amount of help out of any top ten player by far during what is usually a players physical peak from 26-29? He gets criticized for never pairing a championship with his most dominant season, and that's a big reason why. For all the help he had early on in his career, the dude was paired up with garbage during his physical peak; and yes that matter considering the fact that many of you don't even give him his due for his contributions to the Laker three-peat in the early 2000's. of course it doesn't negate the help from 99-2004, or 2008-2011, but least at least make note briefly.

Good point, Kobe had most help early on, Jordan had most help overall, and Lebron had most help in his prime. They have all had lots of help although Kobe had less help during his prime.

Hawkeye15
10-06-2013, 01:16 AM
do I have to be the first person to mention that Kobe had the least amount of help out of any top ten player by far during what is usually a players physical peak from 26-29? .

And how much of that what his own fault? Look, this site is hard on Kobe, and even harder on LeBron. But cmon man, Kobe dictated his help to a large degree after 2004.

At the end of the day, Kobe has had chip help 80% of his career, and was gifted his situation. And its not like he isn't in the same situation as Magic or Bird. But for his fans to actually pretend LeBron (they are so scared of him passing their guy, already happened), or Jordan, had anywhere near the help early on Kobe did, and has had over his 18 years, is laughable.

Hawkeye15
10-06-2013, 01:20 AM
Good point, Kobe had most help early on, Jordan had most help overall, and Lebron had most help in his prime. They have all had lots of help although Kobe had less help during his prime.

all bs dude. Kobe's "prime" has been 12 years long.

jerellh528
10-06-2013, 02:38 AM
all bs dude. Kobe's "prime" has been 12 years long.

Haha kinda true hawk. Kobe has had tons of help, he's my guy though, I gotta defend him. It's fandom, man.

jerellh528
10-06-2013, 02:44 AM
And how much of that what his own fault? Look, this site is hard on Kobe, and even harder on LeBron. But cmon man, Kobe dictated his help to a large degree after 2004.

At the end of the day, Kobe has had chip help 80% of his career, and was gifted his situation. And its not like he isn't in the same situation as Magic or Bird. But for his fans to actually pretend LeBron (they are so scared of him passing their guy, already happened), or Jordan, had anywhere near the help early on Kobe did, and has had over his 18 years, is laughable.

Magic and bird had way more help than Kobe though. And I wouldn't agree on Lebron already having passed Kobe all time. Will it happen? It's inevitable barring injury to Lebron that ends his career or Kobe playing like 28 yr old Kobe again and leading la to another 2 titles. I'll agree shaq helped Kobe win 3 rings and was probably 65% responsible for those rings but the gasol/Kobe teams were pretty weak man. It's actually quite the accomplishment on Kobe's last 2 rings given the talent league wide.

WatWoudJordanDo
10-06-2013, 09:09 AM
I only remember 93 Bulls and on, but to me, once they added Rodman, it added a whole new dimension to their intimidation factor (and defense obviously). His game and demeanor was a perfect compliment to MJ and Scottie, whereas a lot of people at the beginning thought it was never going to work cuz of Rodman's ego/head.

Now to compare Scottie/Rodman to Wade/Bosh, I'm not sure that the former is more talented overall, but in respect to the number 1 guy, they had better overall comparability (on both sides of the court). And at this point that's safe to say cuz both trios have had 3 years together. Outside of those trios, the comparison between teams is a wash. Lebron though has certainly had the crappy end of the stick until his decision.

Wade/bosh are better then most of the league players right now. Pippen/rodman might be better players but rodman was not in the top ten big men PF and C in the league. Wade and bosh are both ranked higher in today's nba then pippen and rodman were when they played.

Please tell me more how bosh is ranked higher now than rod man then. I'll concede wade as he's been a legit top 5-8 player or so for awhile and puppet only had a brief shot at being "the guy" but how on earth can you say with a straight face that rodman wasn't a top 10 man of the 90s?

As far as the support topic. Easily LBJ has had the worse coaching help. No offense to Spo but he's maybe an average-good coach. Brown is just garbage. MJ had Collins in his youth and Phil for the rest. And then Kobe had Phil. However he's had it worse the last few years since Phil left. So coaching help goes LBJ<Kobe<MJ from least to greatest.

As far as teams go it's trickier. Yes Kobe had shaq to start, but once that divorce happened, whether Kobe's fault or not, his teams were horrendous until the theft of Pau. And then Kobe got another run of good-great support.

LBJ had teams in CLE built for him. Yes he was the primary scorer/facilitator, so what I can't hold that against the team because they had the best player of his generation. And CLE at least tried to keep things moving when they weren't working as far as personnel. And now with MIA he's got a future HoF sidekick, an allstar 3rd option and his team gets 1st dibs at any bench player chasing a ring.

MJ is certainly easier to judge here because it's all in hindsight. We know he had no help until Scottie developed and Grant was there. We know Scottie then became a HoFer. We know the bulls reloaded and got another HoF Def and Reb specialist for another run. All while having clutch shooting of the bench with the likes of Kerr and Kukoc.

I would say MJ had the most support teams wise but the gap isn't as wide as it should be due to approximately 5-7 of **** in the beginning. Kobe's had the extreme roller coaster of top 3 CoaT, literally nothing, then good again. And lebron had mixed results early with top end talent as of late.

Really can't believe I'm ranking like this considering shaq but team wise I would go Kobe<LBJ<MJ but the windows here are MUCH smaller than the coaching differences.

SLY WILLIAMS
10-06-2013, 11:49 AM
I'm not a fan of any of the 3 so I do not have a dog in this fight.

Best player (of the 3)

1. MJ
2. Lebron
3. Kobe

Player (of the 3) I would want on my team to win a game in the last 2 minutes of a close game.

1. MJ
2. Kobe
3. Lebron

Hawkeye15
10-06-2013, 12:08 PM
Haha kinda true hawk. Kobe has had tons of help, he's my guy though, I gotta defend him. It's fandom, man.

I get blasted for saying it, but Kobe's ridiculously long prime is what defines his greatness to me, when you define the baseline level for his play is top 5 in the game.

DR_1
10-06-2013, 12:10 PM
There is always talk of the 3 so how about we rank from top to bottom of the best teams they were on in terms of talent. Disregard those 3 and list it of which of their teams throughout their careers were the best teams overall.

I thought Jordan had one of the most talented teams ever or atleast from the 90s until now but others have made cases against it. So list them

1. MJ




2. Kobe
3. LeBron

Hawkeye15
10-06-2013, 12:10 PM
Magic and bird had way more help than Kobe though. And I wouldn't agree on Lebron already having passed Kobe all time. Will it happen? It's inevitable barring injury to Lebron that ends his career or Kobe playing like 28 yr old Kobe again and leading la to another 2 titles. I'll agree shaq helped Kobe win 3 rings and was probably 65% responsible for those rings but the gasol/Kobe teams were pretty weak man. It's actually quite the accomplishment on Kobe's last 2 rings given the talent league wide.

whats interesting is that I agree with you that Magic and Larry had more help, but they also had much shorter careers, so we never got to see those players go through a 2-3 year period without chip help. What I mean, in comparison, is that Kobe, like those 2, walked straight into HOF help from day 1. Two differences:

- Kobe was nowhere near as mature and ready to contribute as those players
- Kobe's absolute peak came when his roster blew

SLY WILLIAMS
10-06-2013, 12:17 PM
I'm in awe of the tremendous amount of simplistic thinking from these posters. What Scottie and Rodman brought to the table far surpasses what Wade and Bosh brings. Sure, you'd have a better chance of winning with just Wade and Bosh, but Scottie and Rodman are possibly the best complementary pieces a superstar could ask for. Two of the best defenders, superb rebounding by the greatest rebounder, and playmaking.

Rodman was a great defensive player as a Piston but by the time he became a Bull he would often let his own man go so that he could get in position for a rebound. MJ and Pippen called Rodman out on that multiple times as a Bull. Dennis would still have some nice defensive moments as a Bull but overall he was no longer a great defender.

BklynKnicks3
10-06-2013, 12:17 PM
Lebron needs to win a ring without wade to even be in this discussion. Kobe did it without shaq. Mike gets a pass since he avg like 45 7 5 when he lost lol. I give Lebron a pass for losing to Orlando but that's the only time

copper!
10-06-2013, 12:53 PM
Lebron needs to win a ring without wade to even be in this discussion. Kobe did it without shaq. Mike gets a pass since he avg like 45 7 5 when he lost lol. I give Lebron a pass for losing to Orlando but that's the only time

i can already tell you're an idiot

ILLUSIONIST^248
10-06-2013, 01:16 PM
Lebron today has more help than any other super star has ever had.

copper!
10-06-2013, 01:42 PM
Lebron today has more help than any other super star has ever had.

now now... anybody that knows anything about basketball knows that is just false. compare them to the 80's celtics and lakers and it is a joke. you be trolling

ILLUSIONIST^248
10-06-2013, 01:50 PM
now now... anybody that knows anything about basketball knows that is just false. compare them to the 80's celtics and lakers and it is a joke. you be trolling

Those teams were stacked, but they had competition unlike the Heat. The disparity between the Heat and the rest of the league is a joke. Lebron and the Heat play in one of the weakest eastern conference eras of all time. Lebron also needs a team to cater to his every need. Had he not had the best bench in the league, or Ray not hitting the most clutch shot in basketball history, Lebron would be the laughing stock of the NBA.

Jamiecballer
10-06-2013, 01:52 PM
LeBron and MJ didn't have chip help the first 7 years of their career. Kobe had it immediately.

Pretty simple

exactly.

ILLUSIONIST^248
10-06-2013, 01:52 PM
Lebron needs to win a ring without wade to even be in this discussion. Kobe did it without shaq. Mike gets a pass since he avg like 45 7 5 when he lost lol. I give Lebron a pass for losing to Orlando but that's the only time

He tried that already, he went 0-7 in seven years, and 0-2 in the olympics. The only way Lebron can win a ring is when he has the best of the best, and some miracle shots if needed.

Jamiecballer
10-06-2013, 01:54 PM
I'm not a fan of any of the 3 so I do not have a dog in this fight.

Best player (of the 3)

1. MJ
2. Lebron
3. Kobe

Player (of the 3) I would want on my team to win a game in the last 2 minutes of a close game.

1. MJ
2. Kobe
3. Lebron

agree. although i might change Lebron to 1a on the first list.

ILLUSIONIST^248
10-06-2013, 02:13 PM
agree. although i might change Lebron to 1a on the first list.

:facepalm:

Bostonjorge
10-06-2013, 09:43 PM
[QUOTE=WatWoudJordanDo;27152652]Please tell me more how bosh is ranked higher now than rod man then. I'll concede wade as he's been a legit top 5-8 player or so for awhile and puppet only had a brief shot at being "the guy" but how on earth can you say with a straight face that rodman wasn't a top 10 man of the 90s?

Rodman was a great player but overall talent in the league when he played with the bulls he wasn't even top 20. There are not 20 better players in today's nba then bosh. I do believe rodman is a better player but bosh is a all star starter cause he's the best big in the east.

Lebron has the most help because the gap of talent is bigger then any of jordan teams or Kobe teams ever had over the next best team.

The heat have so much help if bosh led the team in scoring and shot attempts and wade 2nd then James the heat still have the best team. There not better with bosh leading the way but still favorites.

Hawkeye15
10-06-2013, 09:52 PM
[QUOTE=WatWoudJordanDo;27152652]Please tell me more how bosh is ranked higher now than rod man then. I'll concede wade as he's been a legit top 5-8 player or so for awhile and puppet only had a brief shot at being "the guy" but how on earth can you say with a straight face that rodman wasn't a top 10 man of the 90s?

Rodman was a great player but overall talent in the league when he played with the bulls he wasn't even top 20. There are not 20 better players in today's nba then bosh. I do believe rodman is a better player but bosh is a all star starter cause he's the best big in the east.

Lebron has the most help because the gap of talent is bigger then any of jordan teams or Kobe teams ever had over the next best team.

The heat have so much help if bosh led the team in scoring and shot attempts and wade 2nd then James the heat still have the best team. There not better with bosh leading the way but still favorites.

can you actually prove anything you say with numbers? Seriously, I keep reading the bs notion that the Heat are the most stacked team in history.

Show me why. With evidence, not biased opinions.

beliges
10-06-2013, 10:48 PM
How much help did Kobe have in '09 and '10? Sure he had Gasol but who else? Luke Walton? Adam Morrison? DJ Mbenga? Jordan Farmar? Sun Yu? Josh Powell? Not exactly a ton of help on those squads.

Hahaha this is like saying "who did Lebron have as help in Miami? Sure he had Wade, but who else? Norris Cole? Joel Anthony? Juwan Howard? Rashard Lewis? Not exactly a ton of help".

I'll just hope you're trollin in ignoring young Bynum/Odom/Ariza/Artest, etc.

Bosh. LBJ had two other franchise players in their primes. Neither MJ nor Kobe had that. Furthermore kobe was able to win.with and without Shaq. MJ never really had the opportunity to win without Pip. Lbj will have to win without wade/bosh/allen at some point.

BULLSFAN0810
10-06-2013, 11:21 PM
Lets be logic. Jordan had one of the most ridiculed teams in history.Outside of Pippen/Rodman, Jordan had below elite or role/allstar help. Jordan teamates where spot up shooters who couldnt defend as well..Kerr/Kukoc/Wennington/Purdue. The list goes on, if they werent spot up shooters they were energy ie Livingston. Randy Brown...etc. People can say what they say about Jordan vs James, and even Bryant, but the one thing that Jordan has over them all is he made a lesser player into an all world talent(Pippen). To me thats the real telling sign to a winner.

tredigs
10-06-2013, 11:37 PM
^Don't sell Pippen short. The guy went from an unrecruited high school athlete / college walk-on at an NCAIA school to be one of the most dominant and sought after players in the country (24/10/4 on >59% FG) after he hit his growth spurt. It takes a pretty special player to go #5 overall in the draft coming from Central Arkansas. You could see the greatness in Pippen long before Jordan got his chance to work with him.

koreancabbage
10-07-2013, 09:00 AM
Lets be logic. Jordan had one of the most ridiculed teams in history.Outside of Pippen/Rodman, Jordan had below elite or role/allstar help. Jordan teamates where spot up shooters who couldnt defend as well..Kerr/Kukoc/Wennington/Purdue. The list goes on, if they werent spot up shooters they were energy ie Livingston. Randy Brown...etc. People can say what they say about Jordan vs James, and even Bryant, but the one thing that Jordan has over them all is he made a lesser player into an all world talent(Pippen). To me thats the real telling sign to a winner.

thats all they needed to be. spot up shooters.

I think people need to realize this day in age of basketball we live in. basketball talent is way up from Jordan's era so you can get away with players like the ones you mentioned. There is more parity now than ever in the history of the game.

You have teams that are as talented as hell but can't win b/c of chemistry and the coaching. It is getting to a point where having the best basketball player on your team and on the floor doesn't mean anything. its the fine line of players/coaches that really separate the winners.

not taking away from Jordan did but he was well ahead of his time.

ILLUSIONIST^248
10-07-2013, 12:27 PM
[QUOTE=Bostonjorge;27161121]

can you actually prove anything you say with numbers? Seriously, I keep reading the bs notion that the Heat are the most stacked team in history.

Show me why. With evidence, not biased opinions.
Lebron=90 percent of Kobe,and 80 percent of Jordan
Wade>>Pippen Gasol
Bosh>>>Any third option
Heat bench/roles players>>The Bulls,Lakers bench. What don't you see?

Bosh. LBJ had two other franchise players in their primes. Neither MJ nor Kobe had that. Furthermore kobe was able to win.with and without Shaq. MJ never really had the opportunity to win without Pip. Lbj will have to win without wade/bosh/allen at some point.

Lebron already tried that, 0-7 in seven years 0-4 in finals games and 0-2 in olympics. Lebron james was a perennial loser his whole life. He can't win without having the best team. Lebron fans forget what a loser he was before cowardly joining two other superstars to win rings.

Hawkeye15
10-07-2013, 12:29 PM
^Don't sell Pippen short. The guy went from an unrecruited high school athlete / college walk-on at an NCAIA school to be one of the most dominant and sought after players in the country (24/10/4 on >59% FG) after he hit his growth spurt. It takes a pretty special player to go #5 overall in the draft coming from Central Arkansas. You could see the greatness in Pippen long before Jordan got his chance to work with him.

I was actually recruited to play at Central Arkansas, and they kept mentioning Pippen the entire conversation. Um, he was a 5'11" skinny kid when he first came, went thru a huge growth spurt, and his body kept up. You didn't recruit him, he landed on you.

Hawkeye15
10-07-2013, 12:31 PM
[QUOTE=Hawkeye15;27161235]
Lebron=90 percent of Kobe,and 80 percent of Jordan
Wade>>Pippen Gasol
Bosh>>>Any third option
Heat bench/roles players>>The Bulls,Lakers bench. What don't you see?


A- my question wasn't for you, you have proven incapable of non bias
B- again, you provide zero evidence outside your opinion

can anybody actually show me, with real numbers, how the hell the Heat are the most stacked team in history?

Jamiecballer
10-07-2013, 12:45 PM
:facepalm:

assuming he doesn't drop dead at the age of 30 there is no doubt in my mind he ends up right there with Michael. you can't ignore the overwhelming numbers just because you dislike the guy.

koreancabbage
10-07-2013, 01:25 PM
[QUOTE=Hawkeye15;27161235]
Lebron=90 percent of Kobe,and 80 percent of Jordan
Wade>>Pippen Gasol
Bosh>>>Any third option
Heat bench/roles players>>The Bulls,Lakers bench. What don't you see?

Lebron already tried that, 0-7 in seven years 0-4 in finals games and 0-2 in olympics. Lebron james was a perennial loser his whole life. He can't win without having the best team. Lebron fans forget what a loser he was before cowardly joining two other superstars to win rings.

do you even know what you're typing?

90% of kobe?

and using >>>> and <<<<< to really back up your argument.

this is why you don't come up with your own arguments and rely on Amos!ler to do it for you. mind you Kobe lost in the Finals as well.

i'm sorry but that is how real champions are made of - by losing. Kobe was just lucky hanging on the coattails of Shaq and Phil Jackson in getting his first three. thats right. lucky. Kobe didn't get his first and real championship that would be attributed to him until his 4th ring. and still he had Pau and Phil Jackson. Talk about being around great people.

Without Shaq and Phil Jackson, Kobe would be the loser. He's been lucky his entire career to be around great personnel.

Hawkeye15
10-07-2013, 01:43 PM
[QUOTE=ILLUSIONIST^248;27164692]

do you even know what you're typing?

90% of kobe?

and using >>>> and <<<<< to really back up your argument.

this is why you don't come up with your own arguments and rely on Amos!ler to do it for you. mind you Kobe lost in the Finals as well.

i'm sorry but that is how real champions are made of - by losing. Kobe was just lucky hanging on the coattails of Shaq and Phil Jackson in getting his first three. thats right. lucky. Kobe didn't get his first and real championship that would be attributed to him until his 4th ring. and still he had Pau and Phil Jackson. Talk about being around great people.

Without Shaq and Phil Jackson, Kobe would be the loser. He's been lucky his entire career to be around great personnel.

to be fair, Kobe was awesome in the 01' playoff run. He was at his best in the playoffs in his later 2 runs, but he didn't ride the coat tails of Shaq at all, he was an integral part of those championship squads, outside his first championship run, where he had an excellent regular season, but saw a slight dip in his production come playoffs. That is to be expected of a 22 year old with that much responsibility after starting as a bench player a few years previous.

ILLUSIONIST^248
10-07-2013, 01:45 PM
[QUOTE=ILLUSIONIST^248;27164692]

A- my question wasn't for you, you have proven incapable of non bias
B- again, you provide zero evidence outside your opinion

can anybody actually show me, with real numbers, how the hell the Heat are the most stacked team in history?

Well obviosuly all thier stats will go down since they joined a player(bron) who sucks all the stats away. When the Heat formed here were the trios stats.
Lebron James: 30/8.5/7/1.5/1
Wade: 26.5/5/6.5/2/1
Bosh: 24/11/2.5/.5/1
Just the trio alone averaged over 80points,25 rebounds,and 16 assists per game. Lebron and Wade were considered two of the three best players on earth at the time, with Bosh in the 10-15 area. They were not only in the same draft class, but all took paycuts(while being superstars/leaders of thier team) to add in other great player on the bench. The single biggest chicken **** move in sports history. Only a blind Lebron lover like yourself sees nothing wrong with what they did.

ILLUSIONIST^248
10-07-2013, 02:00 PM
[QUOTE=ILLUSIONIST^248;27164692]

do you even know what you're typing?

90% of kobe?

and using >>>> and <<<<< to really back up your argument.

this is why you don't come up with your own arguments and rely on Amos!ler to do it for you. mind you Kobe lost in the Finals as well.

i'm sorry but that is how real champions are made of - by losing. Kobe was just lucky hanging on the coattails of Shaq and Phil Jackson in getting his first three. thats right. lucky. Kobe didn't get his first and real championship that would be attributed to him until his 4th ring. and still he had Pau and Phil Jackson. Talk about being around great people.

Without Shaq and Phil Jackson, Kobe would be the loser. He's been lucky his entire career to be around great personnel.
Well yeah, I consider Kobe to be a slightly better player than Lebron. Yeah, I'm sure Kobe had nothing to do with those championship :rolleyes:. So what if Kobe had Gasol, Lebron has Dwyane ****ing Wade as his number two, and Bosh as his number three(who was considered as good as Gasol when they joined).

ztilzer31
10-07-2013, 02:24 PM
I don't understand why we even bring this subject up anymore when you know the threads will just be trolled by Illusionist/Amos1er.

Anyways I think it's funny how last year everyone was saying Bosh, and Wade were washed up and Miami wasn't going to win the championship.

Now they won, and they're the greatest 2nd and 3rd man in NBA history.

There's no reason arguing with people that don't stay consistent with their argument.

ghettosean
10-07-2013, 02:34 PM
agree. although i might change Lebron to 1a on the first list.

Jamie I only have to question why you would consider Lebron to be so close to Jordans talent espeicially after he wet the bed in the finals in 2010 and last year...

Honestly if Ray Allen didn't make that shot after Lebron hit ALL RIM I doubt you would have made that comment.

5ass
10-07-2013, 02:35 PM
[QUOTE=Hawkeye15;27164717]

Well obviosuly all thier stats will go down since they joined a player(bron) who sucks all the stats away. When the Heat formed here were the trios stats.
Lebron James: 30/8.5/7/1.5/1
Wade: 26.5/5/6.5/2/1
Bosh: 24/11/2.5/.5/1
Just the trio alone averaged over 80points,25 rebounds,and 16 assists per game. Lebron and Wade were considered two of the three best players on earth at the time, with Bosh in the 10-15 area. They were not only in the same draft class, but all took paycuts(while being superstars/leaders of thier team) to add in other great player on the bench. The single biggest chicken **** move in sports history. Only a blind Lebron lover like yourself sees nothing wrong with what they did.

Mike Miller is a great player now :facepalm:. Wade and Bosh both played on ****** teams and inflated their stats. Either way Wade is not the player he used to be, and Bosh is still a ****** center who cant rebound and play consistent D. Not to mention they both didnt play up to expectations in both play off runs. Only a blind hater like you cant see that.

5ass
10-07-2013, 02:35 PM
Well yeah, I consider Kobe to be a slightly better player than Lebron. Yeah, I'm sure Kobe had nothing to do with those championship :rolleyes:. So what if Kobe had Gasol, Lebron has Dwyane ****ing Wade as his number two, and Bosh as his number three(who was considered as good as Gasol when they joined).
Now go ahead and tell me Kobe has done more for his teams in those championship runs then Lebron has in his.

ghettosean
10-07-2013, 02:35 PM
I don't understand why we even bring this subject up anymore when you know the threads will just be trolled by Illusionist/Amos1er.

Anyways I think it's funny how last year everyone was saying Bosh, and Wade were washed up and Miami wasn't going to win the championship.

Now they won, and they're the greatest 2nd and 3rd man in NBA history.

There's no reason arguing with people that don't stay consistent with their argument.

I don't remember anyone saying that to be honest but I do remember a lot of people saying L.A would probably win it because of the D12 trade.

5ass
10-07-2013, 02:38 PM
Lebron is 90% of Kobe and 80% of Lebron. What a ******** statement. Im still in disbelief.

ztilzer31
10-07-2013, 02:40 PM
Jamie I only have to question why you would consider Lebron to be so close to Jordans talent espeicially after he wet the bed in the finals in 2010 and last year...

Honestly if Ray Allen didn't make that shot after Lebron hit ALL RIM I doubt you would have made that comment.

What about how Jordan **** the bed in a bunch of games against the Sonics? His team won because of his supporting cast.

However we don't remember that. Take Dennis Rodman out of that series and the Bulls get thrashed.

Jordan isn't the only reason they won those championships like people pretend.

ghettosean
10-07-2013, 02:49 PM
thats all they needed to be. spot up shooters.

I think people need to realize this day in age of basketball we live in. basketball talent is way up from Jordan's era so you can get away with players like the ones you mentioned. There is more parity now than ever in the history of the game.

You have teams that are as talented as hell but can't win b/c of chemistry and the coaching. It is getting to a point where having the best basketball player on your team and on the floor doesn't mean anything. its the fine line of players/coaches that really separate the winners.

not taking away from Jordan did but he was well ahead of his time.

I think this is completely untrue... During Jordan's Career he faced Bird, Magic, Kareem (just 2 teams so far), Hakeem, Shaq, Malone, Kobe, Ewing, Isiah, Malone, Drexler, Stockton.... etc.. etc

Honestly how many of the above names would be in the top 20 list of the best players in NBA history.... So to say basketball talent is way up well I just don't know where to start. Also the teams weren't as spread out during Jordans Era either so the talent was more grouped together not spread out over 30 teams like todays game.

On a side note that if anyone things Lebron could step into Jordans era and average close to a triple double against those players along with hand checking and just how physical the game was back then they are dreaming or didn't get to watch how the game transitioned from then till now.

(Just to note that I do agree Jordan was ahead of his time... I'd say probably the most intelligent player to play the game since they had to change some of the rules because of him... I used to love watch him slam the ball on guys after they miss a free throw... LOL... GOAT!!!)

ghettosean
10-07-2013, 03:00 PM
What about how Jordan **** the bed in a bunch of games against the Sonics? His team won because of his supporting cast.

However we don't remember that. Take Dennis Rodman out of that series and the Bulls get thrashed.

Jordan isn't the only reason they won those championships like people pretend.

Well I'm glad you are not general about it or anything ;)

Jordan didn't **** the bed dude I'm sorry unless you are talking about them not SWEEPING the sonics then yes I blame him for that.

Game 1 50% from the field and leading scorer "Bulls win"
Game 2 40% from the field and leading scorer (also 50% from 3point range) "Bulls win"
Game 3 pretty much 50% from the field leading scorer by a HUGE MARGIN (also 75% from 3point range) "Bulls win"
Game 4 Sonics win (Pippen and Kerr worst FG % on the team... Jordan leading scorer AGAIN!)
Game 5 Sonics win (Pippen and Kerr bottom of the pack again in FG % on the team... Jordan leading scorer AGAIN and 50% from the field)
Game 6 Bulls win the series Jordan is the leading scorer and ztilzer31 buys a history book

Sorry but if you want you can show me stats of how Jordan never showed up in the 4th quarter like Lebron did against Dallas when he ---> ****ing WET THE BED.

Or you can show me a shot that Jordan missed like Lebron last year when the game was pretty much on the line and hit ALL RIM AND WET THE BED AGAIN... Luckly Ray Allen got him a new pair of sheets so he could cover up that WET SPOT on Lebrons career.

Give me a break dude I'm not saying Jordan didn't have a team to play with but you trying to put him in the same sentence with LBJ is laughable.

ghettosean
10-07-2013, 03:04 PM
Double post

PowerHouse
10-07-2013, 03:09 PM
i can already tell you're an idiot

Um okay. And you think you're displaying yourself as an intellectual by lowering yourself to the level of name-calling?

Jamiecballer
10-07-2013, 03:11 PM
Jamie I only have to question why you would consider Lebron to be so close to Jordans talent espeicially after he wet the bed in the finals in 2010 and last year...

Honestly if Ray Allen didn't make that shot after Lebron hit ALL RIM I doubt you would have made that comment.

that's easy my man. i put a much larger emphasis on the overall body of work than most. i know a lot of people think post-season play is huge, i am just not one of them, not when ranking where a player belongs all time. i prefer to judge only on things that are 100% within their control.

ghettosean
10-07-2013, 03:19 PM
that's easy my man. i put a much larger emphasis on the overall body of work than most. i know a lot of people think post-season play is huge, i am just not one of them, not when ranking where a player belongs all time. i prefer to judge only on things that are 100% within their control.

I can respect that as it does show/reflect more of there overall career though I like to judge a man when the pressure is on his back... I disagree with you but I see where you are coming from.

Hawkeye15
10-07-2013, 03:22 PM
Well obviosuly all thier stats will go down since they joined a player(bron) who sucks all the stats away. When the Heat formed here were the trios stats.
Lebron James: 30/8.5/7/1.5/1
Wade: 26.5/5/6.5/2/1
Bosh: 24/11/2.5/.5/1
Just the trio alone averaged over 80points,25 rebounds,and 16 assists per game. Lebron and Wade were considered two of the three best players on earth at the time, with Bosh in the 10-15 area. They were not only in the same draft class, but all took paycuts(while being superstars/leaders of thier team) to add in other great player on the bench. The single biggest chicken **** move in sports history. Only a blind Lebron lover like yourself sees nothing wrong with what they did.

so no, you can not statistically show me a 15 man roster correctly, and its strength. Keep concentrating on the top heavy portion (2/3 of which took vacation over half the playoffs), while ignoring the other rotation players that make contributions. You know, the Horry's, Fisher's, Grant's, McHale's, Parrish's, Worthy's, Cooper's, Rodman's, all the way down the the specialists...

Hawkeye15
10-07-2013, 03:26 PM
Honestly if Ray Allen didn't make that shot after Lebron hit ALL RIM I doubt you would have made that comment.

to be fair, how many superstars butts have been saved by a role players last second shot in the playoffs over the years? Happens much more frequent than most think.

Hawkeye15
10-07-2013, 03:30 PM
that's easy my man. i put a much larger emphasis on the overall body of work than most. i know a lot of people think post-season play is huge, i am just not one of them, not when ranking where a player belongs all time. i prefer to judge only on things that are 100% within their control.

I do as well, but you also need to gauge how much better/worse a player played in the postseason. To me, it's why Barkley has a case over KG for instance. And why LeBron has already passed Kobe for instance. Barkley is a better example imo, because if you just took regular seasons, KG is the better player.

koreancabbage
10-07-2013, 03:31 PM
I think this is completely untrue... During Jordan's Career he faced Bird, Magic, Kareem (just 2 teams so far), Hakeem, Shaq, Malone, Kobe, Ewing, Isiah, Malone, Drexler, Stockton.... etc.. etc

Honestly how many of the above names would be in the top 20 list of the best players in NBA history.... So to say basketball talent is way up well I just don't know where to start. Also the teams weren't as spread out during Jordans Era either so the talent was more grouped together not spread out over 30 teams like todays game.

On a side note that if anyone things Lebron could step into Jordans era and average close to a triple double against those players along with hand checking and just how physical the game was back then they are dreaming or didn't get to watch how the game transitioned from then till now.

(Just to note that I do agree Jordan was ahead of his time... I'd say probably the most intelligent player to play the game since they had to change some of the rules because of him... I used to love watch him slam the ball on guys after they miss a free throw... LOL... GOAT!!!)

I believe this to be true b/c you have less crappy white guys doing nothing. Just b/c there were stars doesn't mean anything with the talent in this day and age. its just harder to win and be as consistent nowadays. Even though Stockton is an amazing PG in his generation - would it be hard to see him getting slapped around by a guard like Derrick Rose, no.

And the physicality part of game is something players will adjust for. it might wear them down but they would still be the same player.

I'm taking into account of video reviews of players, more sophisticated training techniques, scouting etc. Stuff we didn't have back then that are helping players and coaching staff today. and we have a lot more players from outside the states than ever- who are definitely more talented and skilled than the chump change players and foreign players back in the day.

I think you might be mistaking talent for competition, which is down due to the widespread number of teams.

Jamiecballer
10-07-2013, 03:34 PM
I do as well, but you also need to gauge how much better/worse a player played in the postseason. To me, it's why Barkley has a case over KG for instance. And why LeBron has already passed Kobe for instance. Barkley is a better example imo, because if you just took regular seasons, KG is the better player.
then no explanation needed for why i rank KG higher. we are on the same page.

tredigs
10-07-2013, 03:35 PM
I was actually recruited to play at Central Arkansas, and they kept mentioning Pippen the entire conversation. Um, he was a 5'11" skinny kid when he first came, went thru a huge growth spurt, and his body kept up. You didn't recruit him, he landed on you.

Haha nice, and yeah I'm sure that's par for the course for them in the recruitment package. They just leave out the fact that he was an unrecruited squirt when he got there.

ztilzer31
10-07-2013, 03:54 PM
Well I'm glad you are not general about it or anything ;)

Jordan didn't **** the bed dude I'm sorry unless you are talking about them not SWEEPING the sonics then yes I blame him for that.

Game 1 50% from the field and leading scorer "Bulls win"
Game 2 40% from the field and leading scorer (also 50% from 3point range) "Bulls win"
Game 3 pretty much 50% from the field leading scorer by a HUGE MARGIN (also 75% from 3point range) "Bulls win"
Game 4 Sonics win (Pippen and Kerr worst FG % on the team... Jordan leading scorer AGAIN!)
Game 5 Sonics win (Pippen and Kerr bottom of the pack again in FG % on the team... Jordan leading scorer AGAIN and 50% from the field)
Game 6 Bulls win the series Jordan is the leading scorer and ztilzer31 buys a history book

Sorry but if you want you can show me stats of how Jordan never showed up in the 4th quarter like Lebron did against Dallas when he ---> ****ing WET THE BED.

Or you can show me a shot that Jordan missed like Lebron last year when the game was pretty much on the line and hit ALL RIM AND WET THE BED AGAIN... Luckly Ray Allen got him a new pair of sheets so he could cover up that WET SPOT on Lebrons career.

Give me a break dude I'm not saying Jordan didn't have a team to play with but you trying to put him in the same sentence with LBJ is laughable.

Typical Kobe fan. Leading scorer=GG in your opinion.

Don't need to defend myself from a child who never even watched the games.

Truth is as far as his career averages are concerned he had a horrible stretch from game 4-6. Only 3 straight postseason games in his career with under 30 points.

Rodman won them that series. Any Sonics fan will tell you that, or anyone that doesn't blow MJ for a living. That's the reason we signed Mclvaine right after that to a ridiculous contract. We needed someone to score in the paint and for some reason we that Jim was the answer.

Sorry I can't post with you. You literally don't watch basketball games, and it's painstakingly obvious when you post. All you Lakers fans hurt my head. Stats and youtube videos aren't everything.

ILLUSIONIST^248
10-07-2013, 04:11 PM
[QUOTE=ILLUSIONIST^248;27165106]

Mike Miller is a great player now :facepalm:. Wade and Bosh both played on ****** teams and inflated their stats. Either way Wade is not the player he used to be, and Bosh is still a ****** center who cant rebound and play consistent D. Not to mention they both didnt play up to expectations in both play off runs. Only a blind hater like you cant see that.Lol, now Wade and Bosh are stat padders when they have career numers that match the numbers i posted. FAIL! Wade is still a top 10 player, and was top 3 when he was on his way to finals mvp in 2010 when Lebron choked that finals away.


Now go ahead and tell me Kobe has done more for his teams in those championship runs then Lebron has in his.Kobe won back to back with a much less talented team, he also beat much much better teams than Lebron did.

ILLUSIONIST^248
10-07-2013, 04:18 PM
so no, you can not statistically show me a 15 man roster correctly, and its strength. Keep concentrating on the top heavy portion (2/3 of which took vacation over half the playoffs), while ignoring the other rotation players that make contributions. You know, the Horry's, Fisher's, Grant's, McHale's, Parrish's, Worthy's, Cooper's, Rodman's, all the way down the the specialists...
The Heat have nothing but griddy hustle players and snipers. The absolute perfect bench you want.

to be fair, how many superstars butts have been saved by a role players last second shot in the playoffs over the years? Happens much more frequent than most think.
There's only one greatest shot of all time and that belongs to Ray Allen the Legacy saver.

I do as well, but you also need to gauge how much better/worse a player played in the postseason. To me, it's why Barkley has a case over KG for instance. And why LeBron has already passed Kobe for instance. Barkley is a better example imo, because if you just took regular seasons, KG is the better player.Lol, Lebron is not top ten dude. Stop living in fantasy land.

Guppyfighter
10-07-2013, 04:22 PM
"What's the best way to degrade the value of the forum"


Well, I think this thread answers that question.

koberulesall
10-07-2013, 04:26 PM
Lol don't be a homer because All Star appearances doesn't mean Odom wasn't any help. Odom was in his prime during those years and whenever Bynum was out, Odom was a 20-10 guy waiting

And Bynum was playing 70% of those games, that is a pretty big miscalculation

odom 20-10 when?? lol!! yeah? Bynum 70%? is that what he told you? how could anyone even know that except for him? go gargle lebrons balls somewhere else

koberulesall
10-07-2013, 04:28 PM
the real answer to this thread for every idiot on here is idiots only think what makes them feel better

amos1er
10-07-2013, 04:37 PM
Lol @ the typical Lebronite answer to all questions why Lebron should be mentioned in the same conversation as Jordan and Kobe... "Duh... Dude can averaged like a triple double."

When the truth is that Lebron never has and never came close to averaging a triple double... LIKE EVER!

Only Magic and Big O have done that. Get your facts straight Leboners.

copper!
10-07-2013, 04:48 PM
http://i.imgur.com/6sylQYF.jpg

It's clear Kobe can't be relied on in the final moments of big games. His teammates need to bail him out.

copper!
10-07-2013, 04:50 PM
the real answer to this thread for every idiot on here is idiots only think what makes them feel better

lol wut? you shouldn't be calling people idiots after writing that crappy sentence.

5ass
10-07-2013, 04:58 PM
[QUOTE=5ass;27165319]Lol, now Wade and Bosh are stat padders when they have career numers that match the numbers i posted. FAIL! Wade is still a top 10 player, and was top 3 when he was on his way to finals mvp in 2010 when Lebron choked that finals away.
I never said they were stat padders. I said their stats were INFLATED. they were relied upon as first options even though Bosh isnt a 1 option on a contender he still put up 24 points. Wade was being overused and injuries would've ruined his career if it werent for getting a better supporting cast.
At one point Granger was putting up 25 ppg. Do you want to call him a legit number one option on a contender as well? What about Zach Randolph? David Lee?

Lee put up 21-12 in NY when he was a number 1 option. Yet, he's not even the third best player on this warriors contender. Arguably not even forth best.


EDIT: Your posts are so ******** PSD is not functioning well when I quote you LMAO

ghettosean
10-07-2013, 04:59 PM
to be fair, how many superstars butts have been saved by a role players last second shot in the playoffs over the years? Happens much more frequent than most think.

Agreed... Could have happened to Timmy or Parker if Lenard hit a last second shot to take the series but it's more the fact that Lebron is known to miss clutch shots like that and this is the reason I don't like him being grouped Jordan not only did they play in different era's (where if you insert Lebron in that era I don't think he's getting anywhere close to a triple double like today) but as far as hitting that clutch shot it's just not happening.

On a side note it's clear that I'm not a LeBron fan at all (I don't hide it) and I'm not afraid to say when I was watching Game 6 and they gave that final shot to James I was jumping for joy when I saw him pulling up for the shot and even called the brick when I was watching it... That's how sure I was it wouldn't go in when he left his hands.

ghettosean
10-07-2013, 05:03 PM
Typical Kobe fan. Leading scorer=GG in your opinion.

Don't need to defend myself from a child who never even watched the games.

Truth is as far as his career averages are concerned he had a horrible stretch from game 4-6. Only 3 straight postseason games in his career with under 30 points.

Rodman won them that series. Any Sonics fan will tell you that, or anyone that doesn't blow MJ for a living. That's the reason we signed Mclvaine right after that to a ridiculous contract. We needed someone to score in the paint and for some reason we that Jim was the answer.

Sorry I can't post with you. You literally don't watch basketball games, and it's painstakingly obvious when you post. All you Lakers fans hurt my head. Stats and youtube videos aren't everything.

Kobe is one of my most unfavourite players when it comes to NBA greats but the guy is still one of the greatest of all time (Book it, add it to your sig I don't care but I'm not a Kobe fan but you are someone who just likes to put words in peoples mouths or make assumptions with absolutely no evidence).

Just to make an additional note MY POST HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH KOBE NOR DID ANYTHING I SAID IN THIS THREAD HAVE TO DO WITH KOBE!

I stopped reading your response after that because it seems like a waste of my time since you are making up utter nonsense to try and discredit me... At least you can show the rest of the forum how uncreditable your responses are and how you just make things up out of thin air.

There is no words that can show how ignorant your response was... NO WORDS!

5ass
10-07-2013, 05:03 PM
Agreed... Could have happened to Timmy or Parker if Lenard hit a last second shot to take the series but it's more the fact that Lebron is known to miss clutch shots like that and this is the reason I don't like him being grouped Jordan not only did they play in different era's (where if you insert Lebron in that era I don't think he's getting anywhere close to a triple double like today) but as far as hitting that clutch shot it's just not happening.

On a side note it's clear that I'm not a LeBron fan at all (I don't hide it) and I'm not afraid to say when I was watching Game 6 and they gave that final shot to James I was jumping for joy when I saw him pulling up for the shot and even called the brick when I was watching it... That's how sure I was it wouldn't go in when he left his hands.

Yet he was the one that kept them in the game in the first place. Fact is, no Lebron, no chance at cutting the lead. No chance at a potential game winner.

FlashBolt
10-07-2013, 05:11 PM
Lol @ the typical Lebronite answer to all questions why Lebron should be mentioned in the same conversation as Jordan and Kobe... "Duh... Dude can averaged like a triple double."

When the truth is that Lebron never has and never came close to averaging a triple double... LIKE EVER!

Only Magic and Big O have done that. Get your facts straight Leboners.

You forgot about Wilt and Kidd, but I guess you don't know what you're talking about.

5ass
10-07-2013, 05:11 PM
Bosh averaged 12-7 and wade was 16-5-5 during this seasons play offs.
Now tell me he had the best supporting cast in the NBA. Scratch that, Dellusionis, you claim he has the most stacked team in NBA history. I'd like to see you try to explain that.

ghettosean
10-07-2013, 05:14 PM
Yet he was the one that kept them in the game in the first place. Fact is, no Lebron, no chance at cutting the lead. No chance at a potential game winner.

What you said is true but No Ray Allen (to shoot that 3 after the Lebron clunker) --> No championship!

End of story.

5ass
10-07-2013, 05:17 PM
What you said is true but No Ray Allen (to shoot that 3 after the Lebron clunker) --> No championship!

End of story.

What about clutch D? How many clutch stops have Kobe's teammates given him?

amos1er
10-07-2013, 05:25 PM
You forgot about Wilt and Kidd, but I guess you don't know what you're talking about.

LMAO!!!

Please list the seasons that Kidd and Wilt averaged triple doubles...

That's about as credible a statement as Lebron averaged a triple double. Never happened. :laugh:

amos1er
10-07-2013, 05:25 PM
What about clutch D? How many clutch stops have Kobe's teammates given him?

Grasping at straws are we. :rolleyes:

amos1er
10-07-2013, 05:26 PM
What you said is true but No Ray Allen (to shoot that 3 after the Lebron clunker) --> No championship!

End of story.

Word.

amos1er
10-07-2013, 05:32 PM
Bosh averaged 12-7 and wade was 16-5-5 during this seasons play offs.
Now tell me he had the best supporting cast in the NBA. Scratch that, Dellusionis, you claim he has the most stacked team in NBA history. I'd like to see you try to explain that.

along with the best 3 point shooting cast of all time. 5 guys who can shoot over 40%. Those number are skewed anyways as the first two rounds were a joke and Wade and Bosh sat out the end of most of the games to conserve themselves for the more important games... Unlike Lebron who risks personal injury for personal stats to come in an statpad at the end of games in the finals when his team had clearly won the game.

5ass
10-07-2013, 05:44 PM
Grasping at straws are we. :rolleyes:

avoiding the question are we. :rolleyes:

5ass
10-07-2013, 05:50 PM
along with the best 3 point shooting cast of all time. 5 guys who can shoot over 40%. Those number are skewed anyways as the first two rounds were a joke and Wade and Bosh sat out the end of most of the games to conserve themselves for the more important games... Unlike Lebron who risks personal injury for personal stats to come in an statpad at the end of games in the finals when his team had clearly won the game.

try again, battier shot 29%, chalmers 35%, Lewis 0%, from 3 in the play offs. So who are those 5 guys?
Ray Allen shot above 40%, but at 37 years old, overall he's barely an avg shooting guard anymore.*His game is restricted to shooting, and on defense he's clearly a negative. As is the case for Mike Miller.

copper!
10-07-2013, 05:59 PM
http://i.imgur.com/6sylQYF.jpg

i wish one of the kobe fanboys can explain this. it is clear kobe has been bailed out FAR more than lebron or jordan. The dude is simply not clutch at all. explanations for this amos1er?

Hawkeye15
10-07-2013, 06:01 PM
Agreed... Could have happened to Timmy or Parker if Lenard hit a last second shot to take the series but it's more the fact that Lebron is known to miss clutch shots like that and this is the reason I don't like him being grouped Jordan not only did they play in different era's (where if you insert Lebron in that era I don't think he's getting anywhere close to a triple double like today) but as far as hitting that clutch shot it's just not happening.

On a side note it's clear that I'm not a LeBron fan at all (I don't hide it) and I'm not afraid to say when I was watching Game 6 and they gave that final shot to James I was jumping for joy when I saw him pulling up for the shot and even called the brick when I was watching it... That's how sure I was it wouldn't go in when he left his hands.

I don't group him with Jordan, but I think he is closer to Jordan than he is to Kobe for instance. When all is said and done I mean. Closer to #1 than #10.

Matter.
10-07-2013, 06:06 PM
just wait till both players retire.. then compare.. looking forward too see what lebron can do at age 32+

amos1er
10-07-2013, 06:06 PM
try again, battier shot 29%, chalmers 35%, Lewis 0%, from 3 in the play offs. So who are those 5 guys?
Ray Allen shot above 40%, but at 37 years old, overall he's barely an avg shooting guard anymore.*His game is restricted to shooting, and on defense he's clearly a negative. As is the case for Mike Miller.

Regular season.

amos1er
10-07-2013, 06:08 PM
avoiding the question are we. :rolleyes:

Honestly, it was such a terrible question, I wouldn't even begin to waste my time answering it.

amos1er
10-07-2013, 06:09 PM
http://i.imgur.com/6sylQYF.jpg

i wish one of the kobe fanboys can explain this. it is clear kobe has been bailed out FAR more than lebron or jordan. The dude is simply not clutch at all. explanations for this amos1er?

What about with 5 seconds left.

amos1er
10-07-2013, 06:10 PM
just wait till both players retire.. then compare.. looking forward too see what lebron can do at age 32+

Depends on if they keep on letting him get away with not testing for HGH.

ILLUSIONIST^248
10-07-2013, 06:18 PM
Bosh averaged 12-7 and wade was 16-5-5 during this seasons play offs.
Now tell me he had the best supporting cast in the NBA. Scratch that, Dellusionis, you claim he has the most stacked team in NBA history. I'd like to see you try to explain that.

Name me a team that has a better 2-8 than this.

Wade
Bosh
Chalmers
Birdman
Haslem
Allen
Battier
? And as Amos1er stated they have 5 threepoint snipers.

5ass
10-07-2013, 06:24 PM
Regular season.

Did their championship run come in the regular season? Its funny regular season doesnt matter to you when it comes to mvps.

tredigs
10-07-2013, 06:25 PM
What about with 5 seconds left.

Kobe Bryant's shots with 5 or less seconds left and the score Lakers -3 to 0 (tied). I.e. his shot to tie or win:


2010/11 playoffs: 0-1
2009/10 playoffs: 0-2
2008/09 playoffs: 0-2

2002/03 playoffs: 0-1
2001/02 playoffs: 0-3
2000/01 playoffs: No attempts

2012/13 regular season: 0-5.

Overall: 0-14.


http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/plus/shot_finder.cgi

We done here?

5ass
10-07-2013, 06:28 PM
Name me a team that has a better 2-8 than this.

Wade
Bosh
Chalmers
Birdman
Haslem
Allen
Battier
? And as Amos1er stated they have 5 threepoint snipers.

In nba history? I can find so many teams to peove ur ignorance, but Ill keep it for this season only.
How about the spurs without duncan? How about the thunder without durant? Even Kobe had more talent around him last season.

5ass
10-07-2013, 06:29 PM
Kobe Bryant's shots with 5 or less seconds left and the score Lakers -3 to 0 (tied). I.e. his shot to tie or win:


2010/11 playoffs: 0-1
2009/10 playoffs: 0-2
2008/09 playoffs: 0-2

2002/03 playoffs: 0-1
2001/02 playoffs: 0-3
2000/01 playoffs: No attempts

2012/13 regular season: 0-5.

Overall: 0-14.


http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/plus/shot_finder.cgi

We done here?

Haha i think we are.

Hawkeye15
10-07-2013, 07:18 PM
What about with 5 seconds left.

it doesn't help your boy

Hawkeye15
10-07-2013, 07:23 PM
Name me a team that has a better 2-8 than this.

Wade
Bosh
Chalmers
Birdman
Haslem
Allen
Battier
? And as Amos1er stated they have 5 threepoint snipers.

your historical knowledge of the NBA is utterly sad if you can't find quite a few better casts for a #1. You still, to this day, haven't shown me anything statistically to back up your point. It's most likely because you don't understand stats, how to use them, read them, or interpret them.

Hawkeye15
10-07-2013, 07:28 PM
Regular season.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tsl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=team_totals&lg_id=NBA&year_min=&year_max=&franch_id=&c1stat=fg3_pct&c1comp=gt&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=fg3_pct

The Heat weren't even the best regular season three point shooting team THIS YEAR.

Chronz
10-07-2013, 07:30 PM
Can the Kobephiles answer the question laid out in the beginning. Do we count playoff form separately?

I love how they always like to downgrade Andrew Bynum because he was basically at his most productive/healthy in the regular season but ignore how injured Wade and Bosh have been at different junctures in the post season.

Be consistent Kobephiles


Oh and the correct answer to this is Kobe.

Hes the only guy whos been on teams good enough to win Finals games with him playing like 7 minutes.

Chronz
10-07-2013, 07:32 PM
Bosh averaged 12-7 and wade was 16-5-5 during this seasons play offs.
Now tell me he had the best supporting cast in the NBA. Scratch that, Dellusionis, you claim he has the most stacked team in NBA history. I'd like to see you try to explain that.

neither of them can

they like to use buzz words to make their case, abuse stats to back them (when its proven they cant even get simple rebounding projections right). Look at amos sig for all the proof that you need to know about his ability to compare and contrast.

Hawkeye15
10-07-2013, 07:33 PM
Can the Kobephiles answer the question laid out in the beginning. Do we count playoff form separately?

I love how they always like to downgrade Andrew Bynum because he was basically at his most productive/healthy in the regular season but ignore how injured Wade and Bosh have been at different junctures in the post season.

Be consistent Kobephiles


Oh and the correct answer to this is Kobe.

Hes the only guy whos been on teams good enough to win Finals games with him playing like 7 minutes.

um, you mean 9 minutes???!

Chronz
10-07-2013, 07:34 PM
Name me a team that has a better 2-8 than this.

Wade
Bosh
Chalmers
Birdman
Haslem
Allen
Battier
? And as Amos1er stated they have 5 threepoint snipers.

That team wouldn't have made it passed the ECF with the way they played. Whereas Kobe was on a team that could win a Finals game without him playing so much as double digit minutes.


What about with 5 seconds left.
What about our other post, can you get to the tmac portion of that post at least?






Depends on if they keep on letting him get away with not testing for HGH.

The ultimate white flag.

Chronz
10-07-2013, 07:35 PM
um, you mean 9 minutes???!
Thats definitely sig worthy bro. You caught me, I mistook the number 9 for the number 7. How embarrassing. Thankfully you're standards for sig worthy errors are as high as mine.

Hawkeye15
10-07-2013, 07:36 PM
Thats definitely sig worthy bro. You caught me, I mistook the number 9 for the number 7. How embarrassing. Thankfully you're standards for sig worthy errors are as high as mine.

I forgive you

Chronz
10-07-2013, 07:37 PM
Did their championship run come in the regular season? Its funny regular season doesnt matter to you when it comes to mvps.
Or Kobe's supporting cast. See his arguments towards Bynum's availability and allegedly low production levels in the post season for more hypocrisy. His buzz words make his argument seem well thought out to the laymen but upon any sort of serious scrutiny, folds harder than Kobe does in front of the Denver PD.

ILLUSIONIST^248
10-07-2013, 07:38 PM
In nba history? I can find so many teams to peove ur ignorance, but Ill keep it for this season only.
How about the spurs without duncan? How about the thunder without durant? Even Kobe had more talent around him last season.

You might be able to find a few other teams in history with better 2-8 players, but those teams had to face other great teams unlike the Heat. The Heat not only got a cakewalk through the easiest eatern conference of all time, but there were numerus superstar/star players out of this years playoffs.

Spurs? not even close, Thunder? not even close, The Lakers??????:laugh2: you have got to be effing kidding me dude. You just entered the top ten worst posters list.

copper!
10-07-2013, 07:39 PM
damn. i dont see amos1er coming back after getting smoked that hard.

L8ker4lyfe
10-07-2013, 07:40 PM
You dont consider Del Harris eite? He was kobe first coach you know

Hawkeye15
10-07-2013, 07:42 PM
You might be able to find a few other teams in history with better 2-8 players, but those teams had to face other great teams unlike the Heat. The Heat not only got a cakewalk through the easiest eatern conference of all time, but there were numerus superstar/star players out of this years playoffs.

Spurs? not even close, Thunder? not even close, The Lakers??????:laugh2: you have got to be effing kidding me dude. You just entered the top ten worst posters list.

again, your historical knowledge is beyond lacking. Why do you think rosters 6-10 were stronger in the 80's? Hint, it has to due with expansion....

Dude, your agenda is ridiculous. You are on a witch hunt. Like your buddy.

And you ranking posters is like calling the biggest pot in the world calling the biggest kettle in the world black.

Chronz
10-07-2013, 07:43 PM
your historical knowledge of the NBA is utterly sad if you can't find quite a few better casts for a #1. You still, to this day, haven't shown me anything statistically to back up your point. It's most likely because you don't understand stats, how to use them, read them, or interpret them.

Bingo. Have you seen their "evidence" for why LeBron wouldn't average many rebounds in LA despite the Lakers being a poorer rebounding team than many hes been on.... can you really blame them for sticking to their meaningless buzz words?

Hawkeye15
10-07-2013, 07:43 PM
You dont consider Del Harris eite? He was kobe first coach you know

nope, but Kobe's situation turned positive drastically asap when they traded for a certain monster out of LSU and hired Phil, along with the acquisitions and growth of awesome role players.

Chronz
10-07-2013, 07:44 PM
You might be able to find a few other teams in history with better 2-8 players, but those teams had to face other great teams unlike the Heat. The Heat not only got a cakewalk through the easiest eatern conference of all time, but there were numerus superstar/star players out of this years playoffs.

Spurs? not even close, Thunder? not even close, The Lakers??????:laugh2: you have got to be effing kidding me dude. You just entered the top ten worst posters list.

Terrible response, how do you expect to ever become a good poster when you keep regurgitating the same drivel?
Why would anyone trust your interpretation of NBA history when you dont even know as much about Kobe as a Clippers fan?

Hawkeye15
10-07-2013, 07:45 PM
Bingo. Have you seen their "evidence" for why LeBron wouldn't average many rebounds in LA despite the Lakers being a poorer rebounding team than many hes been on.... can you really blame them for sticking to their meaningless buzz words?

I stopped reading the long posts a long time ago. They are full of illogical, defensive responses that either make no sense, or are throwing opinionated stats that only suit their agenda, while ignoring context, or any other stat that doesn't make their case. Well, amo that is. His brother just high fives amo, himself, and +1's anyone who loves Kobe.

copper!
10-07-2013, 07:46 PM
since context is completely ignroed by some poeple here, this should be a viable 2-6 that are better than the heat's 2-8

kobe
malone
payton
fisher
horace grant

2003-04 lakers = goat lineup

Hawkeye15
10-07-2013, 07:49 PM
since context is completely ignroed by some poeple here, this should be a viable 2-6 that are better than the heat's 2-8

kobe
malone
payton
fisher
horace grant

2003-04 lakers = goat lineup

we can pump in a handful of Bill Russell's lineups.

How about Magics? Birds? San Antonio's? The 2000-2003 Lakers?

all better, by a nice margin.

Chronz
10-07-2013, 07:54 PM
You ever notice how the "LeBoners" are comprised of fans from a wide variety of teams, but kobephiles are almost exclusively Laker fans? Maybe Im being biased from witnessing the endless garbage these 2 spew.

Hawkeye15
10-07-2013, 07:56 PM
You ever notice how the "LeBoners" are comprised of fans from a wide variety of teams, but kobephiles are almost exclusively Laker fans? Maybe Im being biased from witnessing the endless garbage these 2 spew.

No, over the past 2 years, what you are saying is true. Basketball fans have realized they are watching the greatest since Jordan. Even if they hate him, the realize what they are seeing, and respect it. The only ones who are petrified of his greatness at this point, seem to be Kobe (not Laker fans, Kobe fans) fans.

ILLUSIONIST^248
10-07-2013, 07:58 PM
your historical knowledge of the NBA is utterly sad if you can't find quite a few better casts for a #1. You still, to this day, haven't shown me anything statistically to back up your point. It's most likely because you don't understand stats, how to use them, read them, or interpret them.As i stated there might be a few teams, but those teams had to face eachother unlike the current Heat. The difference in talent between the Heat and the rest of the league is sickening.


That team wouldn't have made it passed the ECF with the way they played. Whereas Kobe was on a team that could win a Finals game without him playing so much as double digit minutes.


What about our other post, can you get to the tmac portion of that post at least?







The ultimate white flag.I seriously hope you don't think that Kobe had more talent on the back to back squad than Lebron currently has!?


again, your historical knowledge is beyond lacking. Why do you think rosters 6-10 were stronger in the 80's? Hint, it has to due with expansion....

Dude, your agenda is ridiculous. You are on a witch hunt. Like your buddy.

And you ranking posters is like calling the biggest pot in the world calling the biggest kettle in the world black.

Why don't you talk about the disperity today?

5ass
10-07-2013, 08:03 PM
neither of them can

they like to use buzz words to make their case, abuse stats to back them (when its proven they cant even get simple rebounding projections right). Look at amos sig for all the proof that you need to know about his ability to compare and contrast.

He thinks his sig makes him look smart, when in fact it makes him look desperate.

Hawkeye15
10-07-2013, 08:04 PM
Why don't you talk about the disperity today?

go check the Heats record against the "bad ***" west last year. Or the year previous.

Face it, no matter what conference you put them in, they are the best team.

Go check out Michael's days. East has been the lesser conference since you were born (assuming you are roughly 22ish, if not, even further).

You are judged against your peers. Period. You are also judged on your individual results. LeBron stacks up to anyone that has ever played, but at age 28, he just needs a handful more years to figure out exactly what his top 10 pecking order is.

Hawkeye15
10-07-2013, 08:05 PM
I seriously hope you don't think that Kobe had more talent on the back to back squad than Lebron currently has!?


playoff help? Oh my god yes he did.

ILLUSIONIST^248
10-07-2013, 08:08 PM
since context is completely ignroed by some poeple here, this should be a viable 2-6 that are better than the heat's 2-8

kobe
malone
payton
fisher
horace grant

2003-04 lakers = goat lineup

40 year old payton, 40 year old Malone,40 year old Grant, Derek fisher??? that's your argument??? LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Chronz
10-07-2013, 08:09 PM
I seriously hope you don't think that Kobe had more talent on the back to back squad than Lebron currently has!?

I seriously hope you understand I dont care about unsubstantiated buzz words and that Im a fan of objective evidence. The FACTS are that Kobe was on a team where he didn't even have to play double digit minutes in order to pick up a Finals win. Hell, all he had to do was show up big for 1 overtime without Shaq and people were turning it into the stuff of legend, neglecting the fact that he was still awful/injured for the entirety of the Finals victory. Whereas a much more developed Bron had to play HEAVY minutes for his team to even stand a chance with Wade so hobbled.


So knowing these facts, why would I be stupid enough to say Bron had more support?

And for ****s sake DO YOUR RESEARCH. The year Kobe played limited minutes was HIS FIRST Championship Team. If you want to discuss the 2nd team then that means you have no defense right? The year Kobe played limited minutes was HIS FIRST Championship Team. If you want to discuss the 2nd team then my point holds true. That team was definitely more stacked relative to the league, NOBODY stood a chance, not even alil bit of containing that squad. If not for Kobe putting himself ahead of the team, the Lakers may have continued their dominance.

Chronz
10-07-2013, 08:12 PM
He thinks his sig makes him look smart, when in fact it makes him look desperate.

Im off by 1 year (a year in which you can logically deduce that he did not face the squad in question), he labels the thread as an owning yet Im the one who was still posting there and received an apology from a poster who at first glance did not understand the point I was raising.

Vs him completely ****ing up NBA terminology......


Yea totally equal. I hope he keeps that sig up for eternity so that I can tell this tale, I know mine will be hard to top but I wouldn't put it past them to make equally asinine assumptions.

Hawkeye15
10-07-2013, 08:13 PM
I seriously hope you understand I dont care about unsubstantiated buzz words and that Im a fan of objective evidence. The FACTS are that Kobe was on a team where he didn't even have to play double digit minutes in order to pick up a Finals win. Hell, all he had to do was show up big for 1 overtime without Shaq and people were turning it into the stuff of legend, neglecting the fact that he was still awful/injured for the entirety of the Finals victory. Whereas a much more developed Bron had to play HEAVY minutes for his team to even stand a chance with Wade so hobbled.


So knowing these facts, why would I be stupid enough to say Bron had more support?

And for ****s sake DO YOUR RESEARCH. The year Kobe played limited minutes was HIS FIRST Championship Team. If you want to discuss the 2nd team then my point holds true. That team was definitely more stacked relative to the league, NOBODY stood a chance, not even alil bit of containing that squad. If not for Kobe putting himself ahead of the team, the Lakers may have continued their dominance.

this point is why in the "would Bron have won chips with the Lakers thread", I figured 6-7. That team doesn't break up, by 2005, Bron/Shaq already have 5 chips. The rest would be up to LeBron, but entering his physical prime, with the Lakers FO, cmon now. Pretty easy equation.

5ass
10-07-2013, 08:18 PM
Can the Kobephiles answer the question laid out in the beginning. Do we count playoff form separately?

I love how they always like to downgrade Andrew Bynum because he was basically at his most productive/healthy in the regular season but ignore how injured Wade and Bosh have been at different junctures in the post season.

Be consistent Kobephiles


Oh and the correct answer to this is Kobe.

Hes the only guy whos been on teams good enough to win Finals games with him playing like 7 minutes.

So true. If we want to play this game, we can also mention that when they lost to the pistons he had
Payton: 19-8 season prior to joining the Lakers.
Malone: 20-9 season prior to joining the Lakers.
Shaq: The most dominant big man.

Kobe shot very poorly form the field in the finals (this isnt choking?), i think something like 37%, and cost them the series.

or last season when they barely made the play offs with
Howard: 20-12 season prioir and best big man in the league.
Nash: 14-10 season prior
Gasol: 17-10-4 season prior

sammyvine
10-07-2013, 08:20 PM
No, over the past 2 years, what you are saying is true. Basketball fans have realized they are watching the greatest since Jordan. Even if they hate him, the realize what they are seeing, and respect it. The only ones who are petrified of his greatness at this point, seem to be Kobe (not Laker fans, Kobe fans) fans.

you always call out kobe fanboys but your one of the biggest fanboys on this forum

sammyvine
10-07-2013, 08:22 PM
this point is why in the "would Bron have won chips with the Lakers thread", I figured 6-7. That team doesn't break up, by 2005, Bron/Shaq already have 5 chips. The rest would be up to LeBron, but entering his physical prime, with the Lakers FO, cmon now. Pretty easy equation.

look what happened against dallas?

not saying he doesnt win more chips than 5 but doesnt mean he couldn't come up short as well.

Chronz
10-07-2013, 08:29 PM
So true. If we want to play this game, we can also mention that when they lost to the pistons he had
Payton: 19-8 season prior to joining the Lakers.
Malone: 20-9 season prior to joining the Lakers.
Shaq: The most dominant big man.

Age matters tho, and just because they may have been capable of bigger numbers (Malone was, GP hell no) doesn't mean those numbers wouldn't have declined anyways.


Kobe shot very poorly form the field in the finals (this isnt choking?), i think something like 37%, and cost them the series.
Its worse than that, his FG% would have been worth living with if he had just followed his coaches orders and reigned in his offense, even if they still lose the series (which I predicted at the time, made LOTS of money this year), the team would have been better served if he focused on his playmaking rather than chucking to his hearts content. I have a few theories why he would disregard the GOAT Coach and GOAT Finisher, I think he would rather lose his way than watch Shaq hoist another FMVP.


or last season when they barely made the play offs with
Howard: 20-12 season prioir and best big man in the league.
Nash: 14-10 season prior
Gasol: 17-10-4 season prior
Yeah but Dwight made players worse and thus that offense worse with how he demanded touches he couldn't justify ahead of his team. In essence, Dwight was the cancer that Kobe was in 04. Luckily those Lakers had Shaq whereas this team just had Kobe.

ILLUSIONIST^248
10-07-2013, 08:43 PM
I seriously hope you understand I dont care about unsubstantiated buzz words and that Im a fan of objective evidence. The FACTS are that Kobe was on a team where he didn't even have to play double digit minutes in order to pick up a Finals win. Hell, all he had to do was show up big for 1 overtime without Shaq and people were turning it into the stuff of legend, neglecting the fact that he was still awful/injured for the entirety of the Finals victory. Whereas a much more developed Bron had to play HEAVY minutes for his team to even stand a chance with Wade so hobbled.


So knowing these facts, why would I be stupid enough to say Bron had more support?

And for ****s sake DO YOUR RESEARCH. The year Kobe played limited minutes was HIS FIRST Championship Team. If you want to discuss the 2nd team then that means you have no defense right? The year Kobe played limited minutes was HIS FIRST Championship Team. If you want to discuss the 2nd team then my point holds true. That team was definitely more stacked relative to the league, NOBODY stood a chance, not even alil bit of containing that squad. If not for Kobe putting himself ahead of the team, the Lakers may have continued their dominance. I didn't know you were talking about the first team, i was talking about the latest Laker team. What are you talking about FC, How did no one stand a chance when the Lakers weren't even the favorites? Lebron and his team were the favorites to win it both years and Kobe proved who was the best player in the league.


playoff help? Oh my god yes he did.It's not Kobes fault that Kobe brings the best out of the average nba player. Kobe made scrubs looks like stars(look at those same players after leaving LA), while Lebron makes good role player non existant. Coincindence that players start to play worse when Lebron is the leader?

5ass
10-07-2013, 08:49 PM
Age matters tho, and just because they may have been capable of bigger numbers (Malone was, GP hell no) doesn't mean those numbers wouldn't have declined anyways.


Its worse than that, his FG% would have been worth living with if he had just followed his coaches orders and reigned in his offense, even if they still lose the series (which I predicted at the time, made LOTS of money this year), the team would have been better served if he focused on his playmaking rather than chucking to his hearts content. I have a few theories why he would disregard the GOAT Coach and GOAT Finisher, I think he would rather lose his way than watch Shaq hoist another FMVP.


Yeah but Dwight made players worse and thus that offense worse with how he demanded touches he couldn't justify ahead of his team. In essence, Dwight was the cancer that Kobe was in 04. Luckily those Lakers had Shaq whereas this team just had Kobe.

I realize that, thats why i dont even mention those seasons when debating. Im just playing along with his thinking. What im trying to do, is maybe just possibly getting him to see the bigger picture.

Also, Dwight's defense and rebounding make the team so much better than his limited offensive game. The Magic might have been better offensively with Big baby on the floor instead of dwight for stretches, but theres no way he can match dwights impact.

5ass
10-07-2013, 08:51 PM
I didn't know you were talking about the first team, i was talking about the latest Laker team. What are you talking about FC, How did no one stand a chance when the Lakers weren't even the favorites? Lebron and his team were the favorites to win it both years and Kobe proved who was the best player in the league.

It's not Kobes fault that Kobe brings the best out of the average nba player. Kobe made scrubs looks like stars(look at those same players after leaving LA), while Lebron makes good role player non existant. Coincindence that players start to play worse when Lebron is the leader?

Oh the ignorance.

5ass
10-07-2013, 08:52 PM
Phil Jackson made them look like stars, not Kobe.
Lebron makes role players worse? Mo Williams? Boobie Gibson?

Chronz
10-07-2013, 09:34 PM
I didn't know you were talking about the first team
Maybe you should read the post. See how I describe Kobe playing so few minutes in a FINALS VICTORY. Get why I wouldn't believe you?


i was talking about the latest Laker team.
Im talking about the thread topic, which is EVERY TEAM THEYVE EVER PLAYED ON.


What are you talking about FC
Try reading my post then you would know. Feel free to restart this debate properly...

Hawkeye15
10-07-2013, 10:46 PM
you always call out kobe fanboys but your one of the biggest fanboys on this forum

meh, not really. By all means, prove it (that being said, you continue to call me out in Kobe conversations, excuse me for not paying attention anymore).

Hawkeye15
10-07-2013, 10:47 PM
look what happened against dallas?

not saying he doesnt win more chips than 5 but doesnt mean he couldn't come up short as well.

what on earth does that have to do with my post?

Hawkeye15
10-07-2013, 10:48 PM
It's not Kobes fault that Kobe brings the best out of the average nba player. Kobe made scrubs looks like stars(look at those same players after leaving LA), while Lebron makes good role player non existant. Coincindence that players start to play worse when Lebron is the leader?

wow. You are now confusing your idol with your enemy.

Will you ever add statistical substance to your opinion? And I mean real proof? This is a rhetorical question, I know you are not capable, but at least take the couple days you need, and retort in a factual way.

I am expecting both nonsense and facepalms, with som <</>> added in.

amos1er
10-08-2013, 12:27 AM
Phil Jackson made them look like stars, not Kobe.
Lebron makes role players worse? Mo Williams? Boobie Gibson?

Compare Mo Williams stats to years with and without Lebron. He definitely had better seasons without Lebron. How about comparing Wade and Bosh's stats... Players will take a hit statistically when they team up with Lebron. He is a stat oriented player and will not take a back seat for anyone. He is a black hole who sucks up his teammates stats for his own personal gain. Hence the 2011 finals where Wade would have been finals MVP if Lebron had only played at about 50%.

amos1er
10-08-2013, 12:33 AM
What about our other post, can you get to the tmac portion of that post at least?

Ugh... That debate bored me. So you found some obscure passing statistics from a few of T-Mac's best years. Your evidence looked good to the untrained eye, but I think I will go with the eye test on that one. Kobe's alley-oop to Shaq in the 2000 WCF is still one of the greatest passes of all time. T-Mac never had anything to compare to that other than some regular season heroics.


The ultimate white flag.

Lol... How do you figure. He was speculating as to how Lebron might play into his 30's. This is all unknown data regardless, so I threw in a little dig. There was no real debate to concede from in the first place.

Guppyfighter
10-08-2013, 12:42 AM
Amoser can't be older than 15.

Chronz
10-08-2013, 01:12 AM
Ugh... That debate bored me.
Wish you would have taken this stance instead of leading me on with the "Ill get to that, its 4 AM" bull you pulled earlier.



So you found some obscure passing statistics from a few of T-Mac's best years.
Obscure? Try far more precise than the vague assist argument initially brought up. Feel free to disagree but you really have no idea what it is I was showing you. Those were actually some of Tmacs worst years, he was just finally surrounded with a post player to enhance his main skills (the best post entree passer of his generation thats for sure), and he fully adapted into a Point-Forward by then. No longer was he capable of doing everything efficiently just his passing. Kobe is only similarly efficient as a passer when asked to carry a much smaller playmaking burden.

Oh yeah, and show me when Tmac has ever said its a struggle to embrace a facilitating role ala Kobe.....


Your evidence looked good to the untrained eye, but I think I will go with the eye test on that one. Kobe's alley-oop to Shaq in the 2000 WCF is still one of the greatest passes of all time. T-Mac never had anything to compare to that other than some regular season heroics.
Our eyes disagree on whats going on, thats why its good to have some tangible evidence to back your assertions. Last time we had this argument you said it was a Top-5 pass of all time, good to see you've learned your lesson in not abusing hyperbole if you dont have a grasp on the Top-5 passes to compare and contrast upon making such a statement. Being more vague in your analysis is definitely the best route to take here. Feel free to hinge the entire passing ability of a player off your memory of a single play, Ill take the entirety of their careers with the knowledge that Tmac would never become the turnover prone machine Kobe did when you asked him to escape the comfort of the triangle. If you learned anything, I hope its that the triangle truly was when Kobe was at his most effective. Stop blaming the system for his lack of statistical glory when every time you do (like when you blamed it for his poor passing stats) any sort of statistical breakdown proves the opposite.



Lol... How do you figure. He was speculating as to how Lebron might play into his 30's. This is all unknown data regardless, so I threw in a little dig. There was no real debate to concede from in the first place.
True

Chronz
10-08-2013, 01:26 AM
Compare Mo Williams stats to years with and without Lebron. He definitely had better seasons without Lebron.
Says the worlds worst statistician who struggles with simple rebounding averages. Mo had his BEST seasons with Bron.


How about comparing Wade and Bosh's stats... Players will take a hit statistically when they team up with Lebron.
Depends on the player, as it does for many other players interacting with one another. As Nash said, when you play with Kobe you know hes going to get the ball, I just wasn't prepared for how much. Some teammates do require more time to mesh, some moreso than others.


He is a stat oriented player and will not take a back seat for anyone.
So then why do his statistics EXPLODE whenever Wade is off the floor? Isn't it possible he reads the situation and reacts accordingly?


He is a black hole who sucks up his teammates stats for his own personal gain. Hence the 2011 finals where Wade would have been finals MVP if Lebron had only played at about 50%.
You say hes a blackhole then you mention the 1 series where, if anything, he deferred TOO much to Wade and his preferable matchups. And how come when it comes to changes in Kobe, you blame the system, new teammates, new coach, but when it comes to Bron, his first year with a new franchise, alongside a new coach, in a new system, its all him? Can you show some consistency? Like ever?

Lion
10-08-2013, 01:31 AM
I don't understand why we even bring this subject up anymore when you know the threads will just be trolled by Illusionist/Amos1er.

Anyways I think it's funny how last year everyone was saying Bosh, and Wade were washed up and Miami wasn't going to win the championship.

Now they won, and they're the greatest 2nd and 3rd man in NBA history.

There's no reason arguing with people that don't stay consistent with their argument.

Well every story needs a villain, those two fits that role perfectly.

amos1er
10-08-2013, 06:33 AM
Wish you would have taken this stance instead of leading me on with the "Ill get to that, its 4 AM" bull you pulled earlier.

Didn't meant to be a rebuttal tease. Just simply lost interest and forgot the next day.



Obscure? Try far more precise than the vague assist argument initially brought up. Feel free to disagree but you really have no idea what it is I was showing you. Those were actually some of Tmacs worst years, he was just finally surrounded with a post player to enhance his main skills (the best post entree passer of his generation thats for sure), and he fully adapted into a Point-Forward by then. No longer was he capable of doing everything efficiently just his passing. Kobe is only similarly efficient as a passer when asked to carry a much smaller playmaking burden.

Though your data did seem to prove your theory on paper, we don't really have conclusive data for Kobe accepting a larger passing role in a different system other than the triangle with as many years to practice as T-Mac did. We only have a single year of experimentation under a brand new coach and system that turned out to be a major failure. I can easily argue that if Kobe had years of practice under a different system that both catered and relied on his play making ability, he would easily have performed better on paper. Similarly, we have not data to show how T-Mac's passing ability would have fared in the triangle. Apples and oranges.


Oh yeah, and show me when Tmac has ever said its a struggle to embrace a facilitating role ala Kobe.....

Kobe attempted to embrace a much larger role in D'Antoni's system this past year than T-Mac ever had attempted. Hard to speculate on whether or not T-Mac would have likewise said it was a struggle under those circumstances... especially if he had to do it at Kobe's age and after playing most of his career in a completely different system.


Our eyes disagree on whats going on, thats why its good to have some tangible evidence to back your assertions. Last time we had this argument you said it was a Top-5 pass of all time, good to see you've learned your lesson in not abusing hyperbole if you dont have a grasp on the Top-5 passes to compare and contrast upon making such a statement. Being more vague in your analysis is definitely the best route to take here. Feel free to hinge the entire passing ability of a player off your memory of a single play, Ill take the entirety of their careers with the knowledge that Tmac would never become the turnover prone machine Kobe did when you asked him to escape the comfort of the triangle. If you learned anything, I hope its that the triangle truly was when Kobe was at his most effective. Stop blaming the system for his lack of statistical glory when every time you do (like when you blamed it for his poor passing stats) any sort of statistical breakdown proves the opposite.

I'm not basing an entire career of passing ability on a single play... Just pointing out that Kobe's career had the more meaningful passes. Of course you will refute by saying that if T-Mac had the same opportunities to showcase his abilities, he would have had similar if not better plays. Well, that might be true, but it's also pure speculation and T-Mac did have that opportunity in Houston. Again, the triangle is not an assist friendly system. We have no data for how T-Mac's passing ability would have held up under it, nor do we have data on how Kobe would have performed in a more traditional facilitator role with a few years of practice under his belt. Guess I can't really prove my argument, and you can't prove yours... Agree to disagree.

ILLUSIONIST^248
10-08-2013, 12:27 PM
wow. You are now confusing your idol with your enemy.

Will you ever add statistical substance to your opinion? And I mean real proof? This is a rhetorical question, I know you are not capable, but at least take the couple days you need, and retort in a factual way.

I am expecting both nonsense and facepalms, with som <</>> added in.

Why should I when you already know!

Look at both Wades, and boshs drop off in stats since joining Lebron.

Haslem used to be a key player as well, ever since Lebron came to town he hasn't been the same.

As Amo mentioned, Lebron needs a team built specifically for him and to cater to his every need. Everyone has to and will sacrifice thier game for their King.

sp1derm00
10-08-2013, 12:58 PM
Kobe had arguably the worst team out of the 3 during his peak years. Kwame, Smush, Luke, etc...

People forget that even though it's true, MJ had some ****** teams early on in his career, he still played w/ Orlando Woolridge, an old George Gervin, and Charles Oakley.

LBJ had the third worst team during his time with the Cavs.

MJ won with the least amount of help during his first 3peat.

Kobe was next during the Pau repeat years, the team was solid all around but Pau was the only other legit star player on the team.

Kobe had Shaq, and that alone puts his 3peat team above his repeat team.

MJ's second 3peat team was pretty stacked. Pippen, Rodman, Harper (who had just dropped 20/6/5 the year before), and Kukoc.

Lebron's Heat championship teams are just about as stacked as you can get in terms of talent. They might not have fit that well together or been as healthy as possible but it's hard to argue against Wade, Bosh, Allen, Miller, Battier, Birdman, Haslem, Chalmers.

koreancabbage
10-08-2013, 01:13 PM
Compare Mo Williams stats to years with and without Lebron. He definitely had better seasons without Lebron. How about comparing Wade and Bosh's stats... Players will take a hit statistically when they team up with Lebron. He is a stat oriented player and will not take a back seat for anyone. He is a black hole who sucks up his teammates stats for his own personal gain. Hence the 2011 finals where Wade would have been finals MVP if Lebron had only played at about 50%.

and kobe went on to score 80+ points. that's a stat oriented player right there. and he keeps shooting when he sucks at shooting. kobe is the stat hog if anything.

and then he went on to retire his own number when he did that.

koreancabbage
10-08-2013, 01:26 PM
Why should I when you already know!

Look at both Wades, and boshs drop off in stats since joining Lebron.

Haslem used to be a key player as well, ever since Lebron came to town he hasn't been the same.

As Amo mentioned, Lebron needs a team built specifically for him and to cater to his every need. Everyone has to and will sacrifice thier game for their King.

Kobe needs a specific team to take him to the promise land, i.e. a dominant big man. Has Kobe even sniffed the Finals without a dominant big man to take the ball out of Kobe's hands? BIG FAT NO.

Lebron could take any piece and at least get past the first round at least. has he lost in the first round... NO.

Chronz
10-08-2013, 02:04 PM
Though your data did seem to prove your theory on paper, we don't really have conclusive data for Kobe accepting a larger passing role in a different system other than the triangle with as many years to practice as T-Mac did.
Actually Tmac played alongside a wider variety of players/systems. How come he didn't need the same practice excuse? Why was Kobe so much more turnover prone when asked to run Rudy T's simplistic offensive sets and again this year under D'Antoni? How come so many other passers saw an improvement in D'Antoni's offense from the get go?

If you need that much practice then you're already making my case for me. Tmac was a NATURAL passer, he never expressed any hindrance in utilizing the skill. In fact, as early as his Toronto years, his coach only entrusted him with passing off in bound plays. His passing was evident as a teen. Unlike Kobe who the Lakers initially tried at PG and never really became anything. Never showed the potential of passing like Tmac. I dont think you know how this world works, you dont give the guy who has proven less as a passer the benefit of the doubt over a naturally deferential player who put up far superior passing marks and never had the turnover problems Kobe did. The triangle has proven to ENHANCE Kobe's passing efficiency, so if he couldn't compare even with that friendly environment, why would we expect anything different than what has happened every time hes been asked to facilitate an entire offense?


We only have a single year of experimentation under a brand new coach and system that turned out to be a major failure. I can easily argue that if Kobe had years of practice under a different system that both catered and relied on his play making ability, he would easily have performed better on paper.
Oh really? Then go ahead and make such an easy case. Show me this phenomena in real life, why do other players adapt just fine to assist friendly systems like D'Antoni? Im sorry but thats not how the real world works, we dont give the reasonable doubt to the guy who needs so much to go right in order to compare to the naturally gifted passer who has thrived to a higher degree despite inferior talent alongside him. And we have 2 different coaches who have put Kobe in that role (Rudy and D'Antoni), one of which ran very simplistic sets the other of which has a record for improving the passing of his playmakers save for Kobe. Why is Kobe so reliant on everything going right in order for his passing to be up to sniff? Maybe your right, if he worked long and hard at it, he might compare, too bad thats not how life works, we dont reward potential above actual results. Wake me up when Kobe gets enough reps in to run a simple PnR to the same level of effectiveness as even an old Tmac.


Similarly, we have not data to show how T-Mac's passing ability would have fared in the triangle. Apples and oranges.
LMFAO, there you go again relying on cliches. Why would playing in a system tailor made for his skills do him wrong? How have other players faired in adapting to the triangle and outside of it? What proof do you have that the triangle is going to hinder someone like Tmac when we already know it has done the opposite for Kobe. The same Kobe who becomes measurably more turnover prone when asked to run sets that Tmac completes with ease. Hell an old Tmac was capable of adapting more efficiently as a passer than Kobe was.

You can cling to apples and oranges but that wouldn't explain why Kobe was so much worse in systems that Tmac never had to "practice" getting better at. But by all means, hide behind the triangle as if its the ultimate escape clause. That truly is your ultimate white flag. Uhhhhh Kobe didn't do this because triangle. Kobe didn't get to do that because triangle.




Kobe attempted to embrace a much larger role in D'Antoni's system this past year than T-Mac ever had attempted.
False. Kobe has never embraced the kind of playmaking burden Tmac has throughout his career.


Hard to speculate on whether or not T-Mac would have likewise said it was a struggle under those circumstances... especially if he had to do it at Kobe's age and after playing most of his career in a completely different system.
Whats so hard about it? From day 1 hes talked about idolizing Pippen and Penny, and molding his game in their fashion. Hes said so himself that if he got to play with Shaq, he would have never clashed because he prefers setting others up. So what exactly is so hard understand? We know the facts, we know your excuses only exasperate Kobe's limitations as a playmaker and we know that the players themselves have expressed entirely different philosophies on the skill of passing. It seems your the only one who would think of Kobe as more of a passer. Tmac's passing is up there with LeBrons, so much so that Pop actually practiced with Tmac filling in for Brons role to prepare for the Heat. The same Bron that Kobe says is more of a passer than he.



I'm not basing an entire career of passing ability on a single play... Just pointing out that Kobe's career had the more meaningful passes. Of course you will refute by saying that if T-Mac had the same opportunities to showcase his abilities, he would have had similar if not better plays. Well, that might be true, but it's also pure speculation
Thats not what I would say at all. I would say things like CP3 is a far better passer than Kobe has ever been and has never had a pass as "meaningful" as the lob to Shaq. Playing deep into the post season is a result of far more than just passing, it doesn't make Kobe a better rebounder than Tmac, or say Ben Wallace for instance, so why would passing be distorted to such a degree? Is there any proof that passers experience profound inconsistencies due to playoff competition? According to the facts, Tmac's passing was actually enhanced in the post season. There is usually some random variation when dealing with small samples but I would LOVE to see any sort of evidence that at least backs your assertion.


and T-Mac did have that opportunity in Houston.
Wat?


Again, the triangle is not an assist friendly system.
It is however a passing turnover friendly system, and the D'Antoni system is very friendly for assists, yet Kobe struggled replicating Tmac's output. You can claim he didn't get enough practice, hell Kobe himself will tell you hes never had to practice so much PnR in his life, but guess what, thats admitting a weakness in his game. Kobe himself will tell you the exact opposite of what Tmac says was THE STRENGTH of his game.


We have no data for how T-Mac's passing ability would have held up under it, nor do we have data on how Kobe would have performed in a more traditional facilitator role with a few years of practice under his belt. Guess I can't really prove my argument, and you can't prove yours... Agree to disagree.
You've already proven my point, Kobe needs so much to go right and still doesn't compare to the naturally gifted passer. I will never agree to disagree on a subject I am 100% certain of, not when the same tendencies hold true in Kobe in a variety of systems over this long of a career, not when the 2 have admitted a completely different view on the art of passing, and especially not in the face of such pathetic counter arguments. You cant blame the triangle for limiting assists and then COMPLETELY ignore the fact that it also limits the turnover burden. Why did Tmac's passing output elevate when he had a post player to feed? Why would the triple post offense somehow inhibit that when it has proven to do the opposite for your player and many others? Why do so many other players not need the same practice time as Kobe to experience the D'Antoni boost? Why is Kobe more reliant on system, coaches, players than Tmac? And how is that a compliment towards your player?


Oh and one more thing, TRIANGLE. LOL that seems to be your scapegoat answer for everything....

Chronz
10-08-2013, 02:32 PM
I just remembered Tmad DID play in the D'Antoni offense. He was thrust into the offense mid-season and fresh off Microfracture surgery. So how did he do despite these obstacles?


93 assists only 21 passing turnovers, an assist to p.turnover ratio of 4.4, 22.7AST%. Per minute, his assists are consistent with his career rates, he had obviously lost some of his playmaking ability by this point but the system helped mask that shortcoming. His ball handling turnovers increased, which is expected when a players talent exceeds his role, notably absent however is a steep learning curve. He was a brilliant passer from day 1 in this system. Its why he ran PG in Detroit the following year in yet another new system alongside new teammates. How did he fare then? Exactly how you would expect given his career pattern, increase in ast% led to a slight decrease in Ast/P.Turnover rate (tho still superior to most of Kobe's). And thats from an old man Tmac.

Thats what someone whos an instinctive passer is able to do despite losing major athletic ability. Imagine if he was in his prime, he wasn't even half the player he used to be. Im very curious to see if Kobe's passing game holds up as well once he loses the threat of scoring.

Chronz
10-08-2013, 02:37 PM
Kobe had arguably the worst team out of the 3 during his peak years. Kwame, Smush, Luke, etc...
So his peak is limited to 2 seasons?


Disagree with the rest but Im not really sure what years you are looking at.

ILLUSIONIST^248
10-08-2013, 04:00 PM
meh, not really. By all means, prove it (that being said, you continue to call me out in Kobe conversations, excuse me for not paying attention anymore).

Lol, you must be in complete denial if you don't think you're a Lebronite. You're actually in the top five in that regard. Only Lebron lovers think he has a chance to pass MJ.

ILLUSIONIST^248
10-08-2013, 04:05 PM
kobe needs a specific team to take him to the promise land, i.e. A dominant big man. Has kobe even sniffed the finals without a dominant big man to take the ball out of kobe's hands? Big fat no.

Lebron could take any piece and at least get past the first round at least. Has he lost in the first round... No.All Kobe needs is one great player,and he'll win a ring. As you can see our bench was trash during our back to back run. Kobe took the heavily favored Suns to seven literally by himself. That Lakers team was one of the worst teams of all time. Lebron couldn't take the vegas favorite Cavs to the finals in back to back years. He needs a top 5 all time team to win a ring, and even then he needed for a bench player to hit the most clutch shot of all time to get past an old and pathetic Spurs team.

ILLUSIONIST^248
10-08-2013, 04:06 PM
I just remembered Tmad DID play in the D'Antoni offense. He was thrust into the offense mid-season and fresh off Microfracture surgery. So how did he do despite these obstacles?


93 assists only 21 passing turnovers, an assist to p.turnover ratio of 4.4, 22.7AST%. Per minute, his assists are consistent with his career rates, he had obviously lost some of his playmaking ability by this point but the system helped mask that shortcoming. His ball handling turnovers increased, which is expected when a players talent exceeds his role, notably absent however is a steep learning curve. He was a brilliant passer from day 1 in this system. Its why he ran PG in Detroit the following year in yet another new system alongside new teammates. How did he fare then? Exactly how you would expect given his career pattern, increase in ast% led to a slight decrease in Ast/P.Turnover rate (tho still superior to most of Kobe's). And thats from an old man Tmac.

Thats what someone whos an instinctive passer is able to do despite losing major athletic ability. Imagine if he was in his prime, he wasn't even half the player he used to be. Im very curious to see if Kobe's passing game holds up as well once he loses the threat of scoring.Tmac and his resume are a joke, get off his nuts.

tredigs
10-08-2013, 04:16 PM
All Kobe needs is one great player,and he'll win a ring. As you can see our bench was trash during our back to back run. Kobe took the heavily favored Suns to seven literally by himself. That Lakers team was one of the worst teams of all time. Lebron couldn't take the vegas favorite Cavs to the finals in back to back years. He needs a top 5 all time team to win a ring, and even then he needed for a bench player to hit the most clutch shot of all time to get past an old and pathetic Spurs team.

Hahaha. More of the same. As far as Kobe stans are concerned, Lamar Odom never existed. The fact that he nearly doubled Kobe's rebounds average against the Suns (11 rpg), matched his assists (5 apg) and put up 19ppg on 50% while - like Kobe - played nearly every minute of the series is irrelevant.

ILLUSIONIST^248
10-08-2013, 07:16 PM
Hahaha. More of the same. As far as Kobe stans are concerned, Lamar Odom never existed. The fact that he nearly doubled Kobe's rebounds average against the Suns (11 rpg), matched his assists (5 apg) and put up 19ppg on 50% while - like Kobe - played nearly every minute of the series is irrelevant.

Lamar has never been anything special, he's never been an allstar for a reason. He did do pretty solid in that series, but look at our overall team those years, absolutely beyond pathetic.We shouldn't have even won a single game.

Jamiecballer
10-08-2013, 07:24 PM
All Kobe needs is one great player,and he'll win a ring. As you can see our bench was trash during our back to back run. Kobe took the heavily favored Suns to seven literally by himself. That Lakers team was one of the worst teams of all time. Lebron couldn't take the vegas favorite Cavs to the finals in back to back years. He needs a top 5 all time team to win a ring, and even then he needed for a bench player to hit the most clutch shot of all time to get past an old and pathetic Spurs team.

i knew it.

Bruno
10-08-2013, 07:27 PM
Hahaha. More of the same. As far as Kobe stans are concerned, Lamar Odom never existed. The fact that he nearly doubled Kobe's rebounds average against the Suns (11 rpg), matched his assists (5 apg) and put up 19ppg on 50% while - like Kobe - played nearly every minute of the series is irrelevant.

ahah, sorry.

what a funny time for you to be using counting statistics digs. since you're so well versed, you know?

lets talk about his PER and WS/48 during 2006 if we want to be honest with ourselves here.

ztilzer31
10-08-2013, 07:52 PM
ahah, sorry.

what a funny time for you to be using counting statistics digs. since you're so well versed, you know?

lets talk about his PER and WS/48 during 2006 if we want to be honest with ourselves here.

Let's not talk about PER at all since it's a garbage statistic.

Bruno
10-08-2013, 08:10 PM
Let's not talk about PER at all since it's a garbage statistic.
never again.

tredigs
10-08-2013, 08:11 PM
ahah, sorry.

what a funny time for you to be using counting statistics digs. since you're so well versed, you know?

lets talk about his PER and WS/48 during 2006 if we want to be honest with ourselves here.

Well it's Illusionist, he doesn't use/know those. The point is that if there's a guy putting up ~20/10/5 on ~50% from the field in the playoffs and you're denying his existence, it reeks.

But from an advanced line, playoff wise his PER was just 2 points shy of Kobe's despite taking nearly 7 less attempts (which as we know give PER an inflated boost) and netted a virtually identical WS/48 along with a higher offensive rating and lower defensive rating. In the regular season, he posted a 3.2 RAPM (which sat him right in between Iguodala and Bosh). He was a borderline All Star level talent, but all we hear from the stans are that he carried "Smush, Kwame and Luke Walton". It's just a convenient and hilariously overplayed cop-out to say that Kobe had 0 help when Lamar was there. That production is arguably better then both Bosh and Wade offered to Lebron in this postseason, don't you think?

Hawkeye15
10-08-2013, 08:12 PM
Lol, you must be in complete denial if you don't think you're a Lebronite. You're actually in the top five in that regard. Only Lebron lovers think he has a chance to pass MJ.

Haven't we covered my respect for your opinion of me? Cmon now.

Matter.
10-08-2013, 08:37 PM
Behind every successful person lies a pack of haters.

Chronz
10-08-2013, 09:46 PM
I just remembered Tmad DID play in the D'Antoni offense. He was thrust into the offense mid-season and fresh off Microfracture surgery. So how did he do despite these obstacles?


93 assists only 21 passing turnovers, an assist to p.turnover ratio of 4.4, 22.7AST%. Per minute, his assists are consistent with his career rates, he had obviously lost some of his playmaking ability by this point but the system helped mask that shortcoming. His ball handling turnovers increased, which is expected when a players talent exceeds his role, notably absent however is a steep learning curve. He was a brilliant passer from day 1 in this system. Its why he ran PG in Detroit the following year in yet another new system alongside new teammates. How did he fare then? Exactly how you would expect given his career pattern, increase in ast% led to a slight decrease in Ast/P.Turnover rate (tho still superior to most of Kobe's). And thats from an old man Tmac.

Thats what someone whos an instinctive passer is able to do despite losing major athletic ability. Imagine if he was in his prime, he wasn't even half the player he used to be. Im very curious to see if Kobe's passing game holds up as well once he loses the threat of scoring.Tmac and his resume are a joke, get off his nuts.
Even if that were true, wat does that have to do with passing ability?

amos1er
10-08-2013, 09:56 PM
Says the worlds worst statistician who struggles with simple rebounding averages. Mo had his BEST seasons with Bron.

Really??? He had far better scoring and assisting seasons.


Depends on the player, as it does for many other players interacting with one another. As Nash said, when you play with Kobe you know hes going to get the ball, I just wasn't prepared for how much. Some teammates do require more time to mesh, some moreso than others.

Lebron has been with Wade for years now. Wade has seen some of his worst statistical seasons these past few years with James. Though I'm sure his health and injuries have attributed to some of that. In 2011 Wade was the better player and in the finals it showed. The Mavs were the Heat's toughest challenge to date and Lebron failed miserably. Obviously I can't prove anything, but could you imaging if Wade had won finals MVP back in 2011... It would have hurt Lebron's legacy for sure, and would have changed the dynamic of the way the Heat ran their offense the past few years. Had that happened, Lebron would likely bolt in 2014. Therefore, Riley had to find a way to win with Lebron as the main option. Wade then most likely agreed to take a back seat for the good of the team.


So then why do his statistics EXPLODE whenever Wade is off the floor? Isn't it possible he reads the situation and reacts accordingly?

That's an interesting theory, but I have one of my own... Most likely these are moments when the second stringers are in. Wade wisely rests, while Lebron stays in to pad his stats. Much like when Wade won game 4 for the Heat in the finals this year and Lebron went back in for garbage time glory when the game was already in hand and the Spurs were emptying their bench.


You say hes a blackhole then you mention the 1 series where, if anything, he deferred TOO much to Wade and his preferable matchups. And how come when it comes to changes in Kobe, you blame the system, new teammates, new coach, but when it comes to Bron, his first year with a new franchise, alongside a new coach, in a new system, its all him? Can you show some consistency? Like ever?

Kobe's teammates have all had career seasons with him. Gasol never won a single playoff game before teaming up with Kobe and he was only an all-star one time. Odom won sixth man of the year with Kobe, and Shaq had his best statistical seasons including winning 3 rings and an MVP. Even guys like Luke Walton, Smush Parker, Kwame Brown, Brian Cook, Sasha Vujacic, and Jordan Farmar all shined and got better contracts than their market value after playing with Kobe. Lebron turned Dwayne wade and Chris bosh into mo Williams and Antwan Jamison. Their stats have taken major dips with him.

amos1er
10-08-2013, 09:58 PM
I just remembered Tmad DID play in the D'Antoni offense. He was thrust into the offense mid-season and fresh off Microfracture surgery. So how did he do despite these obstacles?


93 assists only 21 passing turnovers, an assist to p.turnover ratio of 4.4, 22.7AST%. Per minute, his assists are consistent with his career rates, he had obviously lost some of his playmaking ability by this point but the system helped mask that shortcoming. His ball handling turnovers increased, which is expected when a players talent exceeds his role, notably absent however is a steep learning curve. He was a brilliant passer from day 1 in this system. Its why he ran PG in Detroit the following year in yet another new system alongside new teammates. How did he fare then? Exactly how you would expect given his career pattern, increase in ast% led to a slight decrease in Ast/P.Turnover rate (tho still superior to most of Kobe's). And thats from an old man Tmac.

Thats what someone whos an instinctive passer is able to do despite losing major athletic ability. Imagine if he was in his prime, he wasn't even half the player he used to be. Im very curious to see if Kobe's passing game holds up as well once he loses the threat of scoring.

Sample size.

amos1er
10-08-2013, 10:42 PM
and kobe went on to score 80+ points. that's a stat oriented player right there. and he keeps shooting when he sucks at shooting. kobe is the stat hog if anything.

and then he went on to retire his own number when he did that.

Lol Kobe won that game for the Lakers single-handedly and your still nitpicking. :facepalm: They were down by 18 in the third quarter before Kobe went on a tear and won the game for them. Perhaps he should have passed more to his horrible teammates and chanced Smush and Kwame hitting key shots to bring the Lakers back from their 18 point deficit. :rolleyes:

koreancabbage
10-09-2013, 04:52 PM
Lol Kobe won that game for the Lakers single-handedly and your still nitpicking. :facepalm: They were down by 18 in the third quarter before Kobe went on a tear and won the game for them. Perhaps he should have passed more to his horrible teammates and chanced Smush and Kwame hitting key shots to bring the Lakers back from their 18 point deficit. :rolleyes:

it was a great game by Kobe no doubt about it. he's had a great career.

don't tell me that for a lot of games that Kobe doesn't shoot his team out of games. if you fail to believe that, then you truly are the greatest Homer.

amos1er
10-09-2013, 05:07 PM
it was a great game by Kobe no doubt about it. he's had a great career.

don't tell me that for a lot of games that Kobe doesn't shoot his team out of games. if you fail to believe that, then you truly are the greatest Homer.

Of course there are games where he shoots them out of it. Still, his pro's far outweigh his con's. Your first post said that Kobe ball hogged it in his 81 point game... That single game is what I was commenting on... Not overall or how he can occasionally shoot his team out of games.

mngopher35
10-09-2013, 09:21 PM
Of course there are games where he shoots them out of it. Still, his pro's far outweigh his con's. Your first post said that Kobe ball hogged it in his 81 point game... That single game is what I was commenting on... Not overall or how he can occasionally shoot his team out of games.

I just don't understand how anytime Lebron "dissapears" (defers) you can't get over it, yet when Kobe "ballhogs" shoots his team out of it you will say it's ok because his pro's outweigh his con's. Why doesn't that hold true for Lebron? He has even more pros than Kobe (even if you only think its because of his physical abilities you know this is true) so why wouldn't those far outweigh his con's?

Guppyfighter
10-09-2013, 09:29 PM
Amoser would be all over Lebron if he was on the Lakers. He's a 15 year old Laker fan who has been watching Kobe since he was eight. His view of Kobe is the view of any impressionable young kid and a father figure.

Hawkeye15
10-09-2013, 09:33 PM
Amoser would be all over Lebron if he was on the Lakers. He's a 15 year old Laker fan who has been watching Kobe since he was eight. His view of Kobe is the view of any impressionable young kid and a father figure.

I could not imagine how annoying those two would be had the legit ruler of the thrown in LeBron actually followed MJ in a Laker uniform. It would be unbearable.

Hawkeye15
10-09-2013, 09:33 PM
I just don't understand how anytime Lebron "dissapears" (defers) you can't get over it, yet when Kobe "ballhogs" shoots his team out of it you will say it's ok because his pro's outweigh his con's. Why doesn't that hold true for Lebron? He has even more pros than Kobe (even if you only think its because of his physical abilities you know this is true) so why wouldn't those far outweigh his con's?

have you not figured him out yet? Agenda on steroids

mngopher35
10-09-2013, 09:46 PM
have you not figured him out yet? Agenda on steroids

I get it I just don't get the point. Why focus on one players flaws so much just to become a joke? And if you don't care that everyone thinks you're a joke (at least on this topic) why not leave us alone so maybe only half the conversations here become about Lebron vs Kobe vs Jordan. I'm really just sick of reading it all the time and voicing my frustration (even though I don't have much time to post with work recently I still drop in to read when I can).

koreancabbage
10-09-2013, 10:46 PM
Of course there are games where he shoots them out of it. Still, his pro's far outweigh his con's. Your first post said that Kobe ball hogged it in his 81 point game... That single game is what I was commenting on... Not overall or how he can occasionally shoot his team out of games.


I get it I just don't get the point. Why focus on one players flaws so much just to become a joke? And if you don't care that everyone thinks you're a joke (at least on this topic) why not leave us alone so maybe only half the conversations here become about Lebron vs Kobe vs Jordan. I'm really just sick of reading it all the time and voicing my frustration (even though I don't have much time to post with work recently I still drop in to read when I can).

you do realize he only uses arguments that favor Kobe and runs with it as much as possible b/c he can voice his opinion and not facts. The only thing he can cling onto is the amount of rings that Kobe has. He has brought up so many arguments and logic that has been flawed from the start. and then he gives us this gem here which basically can be used against him in favor of Lebron.

He's been doing this since the start of the Kobe vs Lebron argument and he has yet to produce ground breaking evidence (hearsay 100% of the time) that could prove Kobe is the better player.

- he used stats - he found out that he can't use it b/c Lebron has him beat all round
- he used rings - when the matter of fact Shaq was responsible for more than half of his rings
- he used teammates - yet Kobe could only win with a dominant big man
- he used Lebron's 0-for whatever in the playoffs - then he tries to use situations that can't proven but based on opinion (i.e. Kobe run was better over stronger opponents) but he can't prove it. just opinion. we gave him a chance to prove it but has yet to do so.
- he used Kobe's clutchness and disappearance - guess what, Lebron has been better than him in clutch situations - and one of Lebron's best playoff performances has been arguably rated higher than Kobe's best playoff performance.

- again, he has been proven wrong time and time again.

it is actually funny watching the war continue, but he continues to lose all the battles. its a different argument everyday but same result, he has to change his game plan to fit his opinion.

Hawkeye15
10-09-2013, 10:47 PM
I get it I just don't get the point. Why focus on one players flaws so much just to become a joke? And if you don't care that everyone thinks you're a joke (at least on this topic) why not leave us alone so maybe only half the conversations here become about Lebron vs Kobe vs Jordan. I'm really just sick of reading it all the time and voicing my frustration (even though I don't have much time to post with work recently I still drop in to read when I can).

look up the words "defensive", and "irrational".

You get your answer

mightybosstone
10-09-2013, 10:50 PM
I'd say Kobe had the most help, followed closely by Jordan with James a distant third.

Kobe clearly had the most help with a fellow top 10 all-time player in Shaq early in his career and arguably the GOAT coach for the majority of his peak years in Phil Jackson. The second championship contender, was also pretty stacked, though, with that Gasol/Odom/Bynum front court and decent role players in Fisher, MWP, etc. Obviously those years between Shaq and Gasol were awful, but getting two separate HOF big men in the same career and Jackson to coach those championship teams is insanely lucky. I don't know how you would argue against Kobe receiving the most help of the three.

Jordan didn't have great teams in his early years when the Bulls struggled to overcome to the Bad Boy Pistons, but once Pippen came into his own, that duo was dominant for a decade and always had a defensive anchor, whether it was Horace Grant or Dennis Rodman. Role players like Toni Kukoc and Steve Kerr certainly helped, as did being coached by Phil Jackson.

For Lebron, it's clear he had the least help of any of the three during his Cleveland years. Neither Kobe or Michael went through a stretch that long with that little talent. And while you could argue Wade's peak is every bit as good (if not better) than Pippen's, Lebron got Wade at the end of his prime, and Wade has been a shell of his himself in those two postseason runs. Bosh also has not been the same player since coming to Miami. They've obviously had some solid role players in guys like Chalmers, Battier and Allen, but these Heat teams aren't nearly as talented as the 90s Bulls or early 2000s Lakers. Not by a long shot. And that's before you consider the fact that Lebron never had an elite coaching mind like Phil Jackson.

koreancabbage
10-09-2013, 10:53 PM
^ you just opened up a can of worms there my friend.

mightybosstone
10-09-2013, 10:59 PM
^ you just opened up a can of worms there my friend.

I'm very aware. Come at me, Lakers fans. The season's about to start, and MBT is coming out of hiatus in the NBA forum to jump back into the ring with the Kobephiles.

Munkeysuit
10-09-2013, 11:39 PM
Lebron James & Kobe Bryant don't deserve to be compared to MJ simply because their careers ain't over yet! lets be responsible mature fans by comparing these 3 AFTER they've retired.

amos1er
10-09-2013, 11:46 PM
I'd say Kobe had the most help, followed closely by Jordan with James a distant third.

Kobe clearly had the most help with a fellow top 10 all-time player in Shaq early in his career and arguably the GOAT coach for the majority of his peak years in Phil Jackson. The second championship contender, was also pretty stacked, though, with that Gasol/Odom/Bynum front court and decent role players in Fisher, MWP, etc. Obviously those years between Shaq and Gasol were awful, but getting two separate HOF big men in the same career and Jackson to coach those championship teams is insanely lucky. I don't know how you would argue against Kobe receiving the most help of the three.

Jordan didn't have great teams in his early years when the Bulls struggled to overcome to the Bad Boy Pistons, but once Pippen came into his own, that duo was dominant for a decade and always had a defensive anchor, whether it was Horace Grant or Dennis Rodman. Role players like Toni Kukoc and Steve Kerr certainly helped, as did being coached by Phil Jackson.

For Lebron, it's clear he had the least help of any of the three during his Cleveland years. Neither Kobe or Michael went through a stretch that long with that little talent. And while you could argue Wade's peak is every bit as good (if not better) than Pippen's, Lebron got Wade at the end of his prime, and Wade has been a shell of his himself in those two postseason runs. Bosh also has not been the same player since coming to Miami. They've obviously had some solid role players in guys like Chalmers, Battier and Allen, but these Heat teams aren't nearly as talented as the 90s Bulls or early 2000s Lakers. Not by a long shot. And that's before you consider the fact that Lebron never had an elite coaching mind like Phil Jackson.

I stopped reading after this. Lol.

mightybosstone
10-09-2013, 11:55 PM
I stopped reading after this. Lol.

I usually stop reading your posts when I see who wrote them. You should feel honored that I took time out of my busy schedule of competent NBA discussion to not only read your post, but actually respond to it. You have my permission to write about this in your journal this evening before you go to sleep on your gold and purple sheets while clutching your Kobe Bryant body sex pillow.

JordansBulls
10-09-2013, 11:57 PM
MJ had the least help, followed by Kobe and then James. MJ never played with a guy who won league or finals mvp. Kobe did, but Shaq hadn't done anything prior to winning in LA and Lebron chose to play with a proven champion in Miami in Wade, not to mention James was the reason that Miami didn't win the title because of poor play in the finals. So that alone makes his help more than at least MJ's.

mightybosstone
10-10-2013, 12:02 AM
MJ had the least help, followed by Kobe and then James. MJ never played with a guy who won league or finals mvp. Kobe did, but Shaq hadn't done anything prior to winning in LA and Lebron chose to play with a proven champion in Miami in Wade, not to mention James was the reason that Miami didn't win the title because of poor play in the finals. So that alone makes his help more than at least MJ's.

I'm glad that you're not dead, but this is idiotic. You're totally downplaying the impact of having one of the greatest wing players of all time on his roster in Pippen, as well as two of the best defensive bigs of his era in Grant and Rodman. Also, using Finals MVP as your case for best supporting cast is even more asinine than your HCA arguments, and your argument against Lebron is about as piss poor as it gets. You're argument against him (A) Doesn't take into consideration the 7 years Lebron played in Cleveland with a horrible supporting cast that was generally worse than anything Kobe or Jordan played with; (B) Pretends Wade was the same player in 11-13 that he was in 2006, which isn't true in the slightest; and (C) Doesn't consider the Phil Jackson impact whatsoever.

I'm glad to see you back in the NBA forums again, but get out of here with that weak ****. You're better than that.

tredigs
10-10-2013, 12:03 AM
MJ had the least help, followed by Kobe and then James. MJ never played with a guy who won league or finals mvp. Kobe did, but Shaq hadn't done anything prior to winning in LA and Lebron chose to play with a proven champion in Miami in Wade, not to mention James was the reason that Miami didn't win the title because of poor play in the finals. So that alone makes his help more than at least MJ's.
Oh yeah, he's alive. Hahahah.

JordansBulls
10-10-2013, 12:04 AM
I'm glad that you're not dead, but this is idiotic. You're totally downplaying the impact of having one of the greatest wing players of all time on his roster in Pippen, as well as two of the best defensive bigs of his era in Grant and Rodman. Also, using Finals MVP as your case for best supporting cast is even more asinine than your HCA arguments, and your argument against Lebron is about as piss poor as it gets. You're argument against him (A) Doesn't take into consideration the 7 years Lebron played in Cleveland with a horrible supporting cast that was generally worse than anything Kobe or Jordan played with; (B) Pretends Wade was the same player in 11-13 that he was in 2006, which isn't true in the slightest; and (C) Doesn't consider the Phil Jackson impact whatsoever.

I'm glad to see you back in the NBA forums again, but get out of here with that weak ****. You're better than that.
Except Phil Jackson was not a great coach before the Bulls, which is why he did not have a job. If he was such a great coach many other teams would have given him a chance. Krause was the only one to take a chance. And like I said, Pippen was not a great player when he came to the Bulls, so let's not act like he came in a star like Wade did a player who actually led a team to a title as the man.

Tony_Starks
10-10-2013, 12:08 AM
It's funny how people like to keep mentioning Bynum and Odom. Bynum was hurt the majority of the time and LO was in outer space half the time.....

But anyway Lebron had the most help. I don't think we will see Bynum, Odom,Vujachick,Walton or MWP in the Hall of fame......

tredigs
10-10-2013, 12:14 AM
It's funny how people like to keep mentioning Bynum and Odom. Bynum was hurt the majority of the time and LO was in outer space half the time.....

Because without either of them the Lakers would have been in laughably worth shape, I imagine is the main reason. Playmaking bigs who put up 15/10/5 aren't generally left out of the conversation entirely when discussing teams (unless Kobe's legacy is involved), likewise with 7'2" prehistoric beasts who anchored a defense when healthy.

mngopher35
10-10-2013, 12:22 AM
It's funny how people like to keep mentioning Bynum and Odom. Bynum was hurt the majority of the time and LO was in outer space half the time.....

Wait you mean like Bosh and Wade these last two playoffs with their injuries and issues?

Odom and Gasol in 09 playoffs: 30.6 ppg, 4.3 apg, and 18.7 rpg

Gasol and Metta in 10 playoffs: 30.8 ppg, 5.6 apg, and 15.1 rpg

Wade and Bosh in 13 playoffs: 28 ppg, 6.3 apg, 11.9 rpg

Let's not act like Lebron has been working with a healthy team either. There is a reason he had to go off in Boston game 6 then triple double game 7 last year. Then he needed to come up huge in game 7 of the finals this year. This team just hasn't been healthy in the post season. He has plenty of help to win of course but it isn't so much more help like many make it out to be.

Sssmush
10-10-2013, 12:25 AM
The Kobe/Shaq Lakers at their best would piss all over the Jordan 3-peat Bulls and the Lebron Miami Heat.

Historically, I would venture to say that the only team that could compare with the best Kobe/Shaq Laker teams (objectively, in terms of one team beating the other in raw prime vs prime 7 game series matchups with good/fair refereeing) is the prime Duncan San Antonio Spurs teams.

mightybosstone
10-10-2013, 12:31 AM
The Kobe/Shaq Lakers at their best would piss all over the Jordan 3-peat Bulls and the Lebron Miami Heat.

Historically, I would venture to say that the only team that could compare with the best Kobe/Shaq Laker teams (objectively, in terms of one team beating the other in raw prime vs prime 7 game series matchups with good/fair refereeing) is the prime Duncan San Antonio Spurs teams.This post screams of a young Laker fan who knows nothing of the NBA before Kobe. To discredit the 80s Lakers and Celtics teams and the 90s Bulls is blatantly ignorant, especially considering those Shaq Laker teams were far from perfect.

mightybosstone
10-10-2013, 12:36 AM
Except Phil Jackson was not a great coach before the Bulls, which is why he did not have a job. If he was such a great coach many other teams would have given him a chance. Krause was the only one to take a chance. And like I said, Pippen was not a great player when he came to the Bulls, so let's not act like he came in a star like Wade did a player who actually led a team to a title as the man.

Who cares about what Wade did beforeLebron got there? Bottom line, Lebron played 70 percent of his career with Mo Williams as his best teammate and Wade has not been the same player the last two seasons, especially in the postseason. And no competent NBA fan take these three seasons of Wade over the decade of Pippen that MJ got in Chicago.

JordansBulls
10-10-2013, 12:38 AM
Who cares about what Wade did beforeLebron got there? Bottom line, Lebron played 70 percent of his career with Mo Williams as his best teammate and Wade has not been the same player the last two seasons, especially in the postseason. And no competent NBA fan take these three seasons of Wade over the decade of Pippen that MJ got in Chicago.
You mean the Wade who put up 30 PER in the finals and who was going to lead them to the title had Lebron showed up even slightly? The fact Lebron had not only 1 guy who outplayed him in the finals, but 2 in the finals makes it where his help was significantly more. Lebron was the reason Miami failed to win a title.

mightybosstone
10-10-2013, 12:45 AM
You mean the Wade who put up 30 PER in the finals and who was going to lead them to the title had Lebron showed up even slightly? The fact Lebron had not only 1 guy who outplayed him in the finals, but 2 in the finals makes it where his help was significantly more. Lebron was the reason Miami failed to win a title.

Except Miami wouldn't have been in the Finals in the first place if not for Lebron and you're giving absolutely no credit to Lebron for carring the Heat to these last two titles. Youre conveniently glossing over 15 of the last 16 playoff series Lebron played in to focus on the one series. Also, him playing poorly has no bearing whatsoever on th is argument, which is based solely on the supporting cast. Stay on topic and quit using the same faulty, tired logic you've used for two years. Its getting old and sad.

Tony_Starks
10-10-2013, 12:50 AM
Because without either of them the Lakers would have been in laughably worth shape, I imagine is the main reason. Playmaking bigs who put up 15/10/5 aren't generally left out of the conversation entirely when discussing teams (unless Kobe's legacy is involved), likewise with 7'2" prehistoric beasts who anchored a defense when healthy.

My point is their production was a bi-product of playing with Kobe. We see what they've done since leaving. We see what Ariza has done since leaving. We see how many playoff wins Gasol had pre-Lakers.

Lets not act like he was just gifted these all world players, he made them better even though popular belief will tell you be never made anyone better.

Lebron had guys who were certified studs and champions before they even played together....

JordansBulls
10-10-2013, 12:50 AM
Except Miami wouldn't have been in the Finals in the first place if not for Lebron and you're giving absolutely no credit to Lebron for carring the Heat to these last two titles. Youre conveniently glossing over 15 of the last 16 playoff series Lebron played in to focus on the one series. Also, him playing poorly has no bearing whatsoever on th is argument, which is based solely on the supporting cast. Stay on topic and quit using the same faulty, tired logic you've used for two years. Its getting old and sad.

Miami clearly would have been in the finals simply because the teams that could beat Miami had significant injuries in the East in Chicago and Indiana where they were missing there best player. And the topic is at hand, Lebron was the reason his team lost in the finals when his cast showed up. That in itself shows he had the best support. They lost because of him. Wade was already the proven champion and man and even played well in the finals and the prior series.

http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/smith_james_100709.html



Going to Miami, it isn’t going to be LeBron’s team. It is Wade’s team because he’s been there and has won a championship there. So the obvious point was that this would not be LeBron’s championship if he gets one or more, that he needed to go get help from a champion and another star.


Bosh dominated the Bulls the first year as well.

No matter how you spin it, Lebron is the one who decided to play with someone who won as the man in his city. Thus making his support more than the others especially more than MJ's, who never played with a guy who won league or finals mvp.

mightybosstone
10-10-2013, 12:55 AM
Miami clearly would have been in the finals simply because the teams that could beat Miami had significant injuries in the East in Chicago and Indiana where they were missing there best player. And the topic is at hand, Lebron was the reason his team lost in the finals when his cast showed up. That in itself shows he had the best support. They lost because of him. Wade was already the proven champion and man and even played well in the finals and the prior series.

http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/smith_james_100709.html



Bosh dominated the Bulls the first year as well.
I am arguing on my phone in bed, which is very tedious, but expect a much more thorough reply tomorrow. In the meantime, just know that you're so very, very wrong. ;)

Tony_Starks
10-10-2013, 12:57 AM
Wait you mean like Bosh and Wade these last two playoffs with their injuries and issues?

Odom and Gasol in 09 playoffs: 30.6 ppg, 4.3 apg, and 18.7 rpg

Gasol and Metta in 10 playoffs: 30.8 ppg, 5.6 apg, and 15.1 rpg

Wade and Bosh in 13 playoffs: 28 ppg, 6.3 apg, 11.9 rpg

Let's not act like Lebron has been working with a healthy team either. There is a reason he had to go off in Boston game 6 then triple double game 7 last year. Then he needed to come up huge in game 7 of the finals this year. This team just hasn't been healthy in the post season. He has plenty of help to win of course but it isn't so much more help like many make it out to be.

D Wade averaged 20 in the finals on one leg and saved them one of the earlier games Lebron was struggling and scared to shoot. Anyone that can do that is still pretty damn great.

JordansBulls
10-10-2013, 12:58 AM
I am arguing on my phone in bed, which is very tedious, but expect a much more thorough reply tomorrow. In the meantime, just know that you're so very, very wrong. ;)

There is nothing to argue unless you can prove to me that MJ played with a guy who won league or finals mvp especially before he joined a squad and that he was the reason his team failed to win like Lebron did.

Lebron has a teammate that is considered a better playoff performer than he is.

funny thing tho is that if you compare lebron's finals games to pippen's finals games it's like they're pretty much the same players:
pippen = 19 pts / 8 reb / 6 ast on 43% shooting
lebron = 23 pts / 9 reb / 7 ast on 44% shooting

wade instead: 26 pts / 6 reb / 5 ast on 48% shooting

But anyway, I don't post much anymore as you can tell. I may come around every so often. Just had an urge today.

tredigs
10-10-2013, 01:02 AM
My point is their production was a bi-product of playing with Kobe. We see what they've done since leaving. We see what Ariza has done since leaving. We see how many playoff wins Gasol had pre-Lakers.

Lets not act like he was just gifted these all world players, he made them better even though popular belief will tell you be never made anyone better.

Lebron had guys who were certified studs and champions before they even played together....

Lamar put up 17/10/4 the year before he joined the Lakers, but we're crediting Kobe for his career? He was a young kid well on his way to a solid career without Bryant. Ariza? Irrelevant. He did exactly how most expected with an expanded role. He was an 8 ppg guy on the Lakers.

If you just want to say that players in any situation will have their efficiency generally go up when they take less shots and the defense is more focused on another option, then yes, that's a fair comment. But acting like this is something specific to Kobe is pretty ridiculous. He's not exactly the world's greatest team player.

5ass
10-10-2013, 01:13 AM
There is nothing to argue unless you can prove to me that MJ played with a guy who won league or finals mvp especially before he joined a squad and that he was the reason his team failed to win like Lebron did.

Lebron has a teammate that is considered a better playoff performer than he is.

funny thing tho is that if you compare lebron's finals games to pippen's finals games it's like they're pretty much the same players:
pippen = 19 pts / 8 reb / 6 ast on 43% shooting
lebron = 23 pts / 9 reb / 7 ast on 44% shooting

wade instead: 26 pts / 6 reb / 5 ast on 48% shooting

But anyway, I don't post much anymore as you can tell. I may come around every so often. Just had an urge today.
So after the last 2 postseasons u still think wade is a better play off performer than lebron?

5ass
10-10-2013, 01:16 AM
Also ur focusing too much on the scoring. 9 rebounds and 7 assists and elite defense. Also what was his usage%?

Bostonjorge
10-10-2013, 01:23 AM
This is who has more help not who has the better team. Kobe lakers and jordan bulls are easily better and a lot of the teams they beat are better then James heat.

As for help. James has top 5 player in wade top 10 in bosh second best big in league only behind Howard. Former champ in Allen, Shane, Lewis, Haslem, charmers and bird man. All this help to beat the bucks with Jennings and Ellis. Bulls led by Robinson. Pacers who were balling out of there minds but Miami had 4 players in the top 6 individual talent in that series. Then a old spurs team were Allen HELPED James by saving the series in a elimination game.

You give kobe or jordan wade and bosh and they beat those guys every time. Kobe beat young MVP and defending champ Duncan, KG, miller, Iverson, webber ect.
Jordan beat magic, Barkley, drexler, Malone, Payton ect.

James has had the most help in ever Miami and it's not even close.

5ass
10-10-2013, 01:25 AM
I dont undestand why some discredit lebron for having a relatively low usg% in the play offs. Team play is always better than individual dominance. Lebron tried to let wade and bosh get theirs. Why wouldnt u trust ur teammates if their strength is usually scoring the ball? No matter how bad their shooting u still have to trust them. Thats team play.

amos1er
10-10-2013, 01:26 AM
I usually stop reading your posts when I see who wrote them. You should feel honored that I took time out of my busy schedule of competent NBA discussion to not only read your post, but actually respond to it. You have my permission to write about this in your journal this evening before you go to sleep on your gold and purple sheets while clutching your Kobe Bryant body sex pillow.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Get over yourself bro. Your a legend only in your own mind.

amos1er
10-10-2013, 01:27 AM
You mean the Wade who put up 30 PER in the finals and who was going to lead them to the title had Lebron showed up even slightly? The fact Lebron had not only 1 guy who outplayed him in the finals, but 2 in the finals makes it where his help was significantly more. Lebron was the reason Miami failed to win a title.

Ladies and gentlemen... We have a winner.

Good to have you back by the way. Glad your not dead.

FlashBolt
10-10-2013, 01:31 AM
This who has more help not who has the better team. Kobe lakers and jordan bulls are easily better and a lot of the teams they beat are better then James heat.

As for help. James has top 5 player in wade top 10 in bosh second best big in league only behind Howard. Former champ in Allen, Shane, Lewis, Haslem, charmers and bird man. All this help to beat the bucks with Jennings and Ellis. Bulls led by Robinson. Pacers who were balling out of there minds but Miami had 4 players in the top 6 individual talent in that series. Then a old spurs team were Allen HELPED James by saving the series in a elimination game.

You give kobe or jordan wade and bosh and they beat those guys every time. Kobe beat young MVP and defending champ Duncan, KG, miller, Iverson, webber ect.
Jordan beat magic, Barkley, drexler, Malone, Payton ect.

James has had the most help in ever Miami and it's not even close.

Is this a joke? What do you think teammates are for? Why do you think they signed Ray Allen? Key word, team. Also, Jordan didn't win until Pippen became an established player. Oh yeah, Pippen is the greatest wing defender of all time, and Rodman is the greatest rebounder. And Kobe had Shaq. You are completely confused, sir. I could only imagine what James, Durant, and CP3 could have accomplished with a prime Shaq. And really? You're going to say Bosh and Wade were still dominant? Bosh had some plays that don't even make up for his inability to score and rebound. He ha 0 points in game 7. Wade was out of it until that one game where e completely exploded. The only consistent player for Miami was James and he carried them despite his teammates inefficiencies. You're clearly a biased individual who refuses to give credit where credit is due. Ray Allen saved the Miami Heat. It's haters like you who would even single out a player in a team game.

amos1er
10-10-2013, 01:32 AM
MJ had the least help, followed by Kobe and then James. MJ never played with a guy who won league or finals mvp. Kobe did, but Shaq hadn't done anything prior to winning in LA and Lebron chose to play with a proven champion in Miami in Wade, not to mention James was the reason that Miami didn't win the title because of poor play in the finals. So that alone makes his help more than at least MJ's.

100% correct.

Tough to argue logic and truth to a Leboner though. Definitely an up hill battle. These guys actually think Pippen and Rodman are better than Wade and Bosh. Lets also not mention that Jordan only had them both for 1/2 of his titles. Anyways, if the are delusional enough to actually believe that nonsense, it's probably not even worth the effort. Sometimes I don't even know why I bother. Lol.

amos1er
10-10-2013, 01:41 AM
Is this a joke? What do you think teammates are for? Why do you think they signed Ray Allen? Key word, team. Also, Jordan didn't win until Pippen became an established player. Oh yeah, Pippen is the greatest wing defender of all time, and Rodman is the greatest rebounder. And Kobe had Shaq. You are completely confused, sir. I could only imagine what James, Durant, and CP3 could have accomplished with a prime Shaq. And really? You're going to say Bosh and Wade were still dominant? Bosh had some plays that don't even make up for his inability to score and rebound. He ha 0 points in game 7. Wade was out of it until that one game where e completely exploded. The only consistent player for Miami was James and he carried them despite his teammates inefficiencies. You're clearly a biased individual who refuses to give credit where credit is due. Ray Allen saved the Miami Heat. It's haters like you who would even single out a player in a team game.

I love how everyone accuses Kobe of being a horrible teammate even though his teammates have had their best seasons with him and have gotten much larger contracts than they were actually worth. Then when Wade and Bosh aren't quite getting the stats they got before teaming up with Lebron, they are all of the sudden bums. LMAO! The hypocrisy knows no bounds. It can't ever be because the system Lebron runs doesn't play to their strengths and he needs to get all the stats or anything, it's automatically Bosh and Wade's fault that they aren't performing the way they used to before him. Then even more hypocritically, when Kobe's teammates under perform, he is not a good leader. Give me a break. You all have absolutely zero credibility.

Here is your logic...

Kobe's teammates under perform means that Kobe is a bad leader.

Lebron's teammates under perform means that they are bums and underachieving.

Can you all see why this is completely asinine now? Seriously, what are you all smoking because I want some too.

Fact is... Lebron turned Wade and Bosh into Mo Williams and Antawn jamison and he is not held accountable for any of this by any of you. In fact, you all put 100% of the blame on Wade and Bosh and zero on James. Give me a break.

How many playoff games did Gasol win before teaming up with Kobe again??? Oh thats right ZERO!!! Put that in your pipes and smoke it next time you want to falsely claim that Kobe is a bad leader and teammate. It just simply isn't true.

Bostonjorge
10-10-2013, 01:42 AM
Is this a joke? What do you think teammates are for? Why do you think they signed Ray Allen? Key word, team. Also, Jordan didn't win until Pippen became an established player. Oh yeah, Pippen is the greatest wing defender of all time, and Rodman is the greatest rebounder. And Kobe had Shaq. You are completely confused, sir. I could only imagine what James, Durant, and CP3 could have accomplished with a prime Shaq. And really? You're going to say Bosh and Wade were still dominant? Bosh had some plays that don't even make up for his inability to score and rebound. He ha 0 points in game 7. Wade was out of it until that one game where e completely exploded. The only consistent player for Miami was James and he carried them despite his teammates inefficiencies. You're clearly a biased individual who refuses to give credit where credit is due. Ray Allen saved the Miami Heat. It's haters like you who would even single out a player in a team game.

Like I said it's who has more help not better. Look at the teams kobe and shaq or jordan and pippen played. Then look at James and the all star cast in Miami and who they played this year in the playoffs. Like I said pacers were balling but individually they had no pippen or shaq let alone kobe or Jordan type level player. They didn't even have a wade or bosh type player.

Kobe and shaq and jordan and pippen proved they can beat equal or better teams. James only proved he can win with amazing odds.

amos1er
10-10-2013, 01:53 AM
Like I said it's who has more help not better. Look at the teams kobe and shaq or jordan and pippen played. Then look at James and the all star cast in Miami and who they played this year in the playoffs. Like I said pacers were balling but individually they had no pippen or shaq let alone kobe or Jordan type level player. They didn't even have a wade or bosh type player.

Kobe and shaq and jordan and pippen proved they can beat equal or better teams. James only proved he can win with amazing odds.

Truth.

Tony_Starks
10-10-2013, 02:40 AM
Lamar put up 17/10/4 the year before he joined the Lakers, but we're crediting Kobe for his career? He was a young kid well on his way to a solid career without Bryant. Ariza? Irrelevant. He did exactly how most expected with an expanded role. He was an 8 ppg guy on the Lakers.

If you just want to say that players in any situation will have their efficiency generally go up when they take less shots and the defense is more focused on another option, then yes, that's a fair comment. But acting like this is something specific to Kobe is pretty ridiculous. He's not exactly the world's greatest team player.

These players had some of the best seasons of their careers playing with Kobe. I really don't think that's a coincidence. And 5-6 assist for a SG in the triangle offense is actually pretty impressive. Just give him his due man it's not that hard....

Chronz
10-10-2013, 12:17 PM
Sample size.
So? Its in line with his career rates, its not like hes fluctuating badly and if anything, being thrown into a completely new offense, alongside new teammates, whilst coming off the leagues most debilitating procedure should, if anything, make him a turnover prone mess. Instead what we see is efficient passing with very little adjustment period.

ILLUSIONIST^248
10-10-2013, 12:28 PM
Haven't we covered my respect for your opinion of me? Cmon now.
I still like to give you it :)

Even if that were true, wat does that have to do with passing ability?
Just taking ashot at Tmac for being the losingest superstar in history ;)

I could not imagine how annoying those two would be had the legit ruler of the thrown in LeBron actually followed MJ in a Laker uniform. It would be unbearable.
I would stop being a Laker fan until he retired if he came to LA, Dead serious.

I stopped reading after this. Lol.Haha me too.


MJ had the least help, followed by Kobe and then James. MJ never played with a guy who won league or finals mvp. Kobe did, but Shaq hadn't done anything prior to winning in LA and Lebron chose to play with a proven champion in Miami in Wade, not to mention James was the reason that Miami didn't win the title because of poor play in the finals. So that alone makes his help more than at least MJ's.

Yup, Lebron is the most is god to these Leboners. He does everything by himself...

ILLUSIONIST^248
10-10-2013, 12:34 PM
It's funny how people like to keep mentioning Bynum and Odom. Bynum was hurt the majority of the time and LO was in outer space half the time.....

But anyway Lebron had the most help. I don't think we will see Bynum, Odom,Vujachick,Walton or MWP in the Hall of fame......Exactly.


Wait you mean like Bosh and Wade these last two playoffs with their injuries and issues?

Odom and Gasol in 09 playoffs: 30.6 ppg, 4.3 apg, and 18.7 rpg

Gasol and Metta in 10 playoffs: 30.8 ppg, 5.6 apg, and 15.1 rpg

Wade and Bosh in 13 playoffs: 28 ppg, 6.3 apg, 11.9 rpg

Let's not act like Lebron has been working with a healthy team either. There is a reason he had to go off in Boston game 6 then triple double game 7 last year. Then he needed to come up huge in game 7 of the finals this year. This team just hasn't been healthy in the post season. He has plenty of help to win of course but it isn't so much more help like many make it out to be.the difference is Lebron has the best bench in the league with the greatest three point shooter of all time, who saved his legacy.


You mean the Wade who put up 30 PER in the finals and who was going to lead them to the title had Lebron showed up even slightly? The fact Lebron had not only 1 guy who outplayed him in the finals, but 2 in the finals makes it where his help was significantly more. Lebron was the reason Miami failed to win a title.
Great post.

There is nothing to argue unless you can prove to me that MJ played with a guy who won league or finals mvp especially before he joined a squad and that he was the reason his team failed to win like Lebron did.

Lebron has a teammate that is considered a better playoff performer than he is.

funny thing tho is that if you compare lebron's finals games to pippen's finals games it's like they're pretty much the same players:
pippen = 19 pts / 8 reb / 6 ast on 43% shooting
lebron = 23 pts / 9 reb / 7 ast on 44% shooting

wade instead: 26 pts / 6 reb / 5 ast on 48% shooting

But anyway, I don't post much anymore as you can tell. I may come around every so often. Just had an urge today.

Lol nice find, this is just another reason why Lebron is the most over rated athelete of all time.

ILLUSIONIST^248
10-10-2013, 12:37 PM
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Get over yourself bro. Your a legend only in your own mind.
Lol he and FC think they are something special.

Ladies and gentlemen... We have a winner.

Good to have you back by the way. Glad your not dead.He's a better solid poster, def glad he's not dead.

Chronz
10-10-2013, 12:38 PM
Really??? He had far better scoring and assisting seasons.
Copy and paste my original rebuttal. I dont trust your interpretation of stats in the slightest. I follow the guidelines established by APBR, you know.... the people who actually do this kind of analysis for a living. APBR consists of wide ranging statistical evaluation ratings and descriptors, and I have yet to see a single one back your assertion. The reasons are clear, there simply isn't any backing to your opinion when you adjust for things like efficiency and usage. Then you factor in team success and it becomes a joke.




Lebron has been with Wade for years now. Wade has seen some of his worst statistical seasons these past few years with James. Though I'm sure his health and injuries have attributed to some of that.
They have. Bron and Wade aren't a good mesh at all, they share the same strengths, only Bron is the far superior player overall, but they have adapted to some degree. Not sure what your point is here, do you not recall me citing the imperfect fit between Wade and Bron as a reason for Shaq meshing far more cohesively alongside slashers?



In 2011 Wade was the better player and in the finals it showed.
Why didn't it show all regular season + EC Playoffs?



The Mavs were the Heat's toughest challenge to date and Lebron failed miserably.
I disagree, the Spurs were their toughest team IMO.


Obviously I can't prove anything, but could you imaging if Wade had won finals MVP back in 2011... It would have hurt Lebron's legacy for sure, and would have changed the dynamic of the way the Heat ran their offense the past few years. Had that happened, Lebron would likely bolt in 2014. Therefore, Riley had to find a way to win with Lebron as the main option. Wade then most likely agreed to take a back seat for the good of the team.
Nothing hurts Brons legacy more than losing and he would agree. Why would he care about Wade winning a F.MVP when he understands the history of the L? Hes knows that even Magic lost a F.MVP to Worthy and it wouldn't have changed anything. Wade still slows down to the point where its no longer 1.A-1.B between the 2.

I really think your confusing Bron for Kobe when it comes to putting ones self ahead of the team. I mean, you would have a great point if you had any inkling of supporting evidence, like the mountains of stories/examples we have of Kobe putting himself ahead of the team, but Bron? LMFAO




That's an interesting theory, but I have one of my own... Most likely these are moments when the second stringers are in. Wade wisely rests, while Lebron stays in to pad his stats. Much like when Wade won game 4 for the Heat in the finals this year and Lebron went back in for garbage time glory when the game was already in hand and the Spurs were emptying their bench.
Except that Wade is guilty of the same act. He too saw his production increase without Bron in Y1. In the industry, how a player performs without other stars hint at their underlying potential if they were in a ******** situation. Like when Harden was eviscerating 2nd units when both his stars were out, only the laymen refused to see "breakout" coming. So spare me the childish theories, when dealing with facts, just stick with the facts. Dont make presumptuous assumptions based on more conjecture when it can come back and slap you in the face. Lest we forget Kobe leading the league in garbage time buckets during his 35PPG campaign and him stayin in a Finals game to get his precious 40-8-8. Bron went into the game when the Spurs still had TP and Duncan on the floor, and by the time Pop did take Duncan out, Spo made the decision to keep ALL 3 of his BIG3 on the floor. Nothing wrong with playing hard to the last minute, many other greats have done the same.





Kobe's teammates have all had career seasons with him. Gasol never won a single playoff game before teaming up with Kobe and he was only an all-star one time. Odom won sixth man of the year with Kobe, and Shaq had his best statistical seasons including winning 3 rings and an MVP. Even guys like Luke Walton, Smush Parker, Kwame Brown, Brian Cook, Sasha Vujacic, and Jordan Farmar all shined and got better contracts than their market value after playing with Kobe. Lebron turned Dwayne wade and Chris bosh into mo Williams and Antwan Jamison. Their stats have taken major dips with him.
So when it comes to Mo Williams, he didn't have a career year despite winning more AND producing more but when it comes to Kobe, winning suddenly plays a role? LMFAO can you plz do a better job of hiding your bias? Again, you completely dismissed my point.

You say hes a blackhole then you mention the 1 series where, if anything, he deferred TOO much to Wade and his preferable matchups. And how come when it comes to changes in Kobe, you blame the system, new teammates, new coach, but when it comes to Bron, his first year with a new franchise, alongside a new coach, in a new system, its all him? Can you show some consistency? Like ever?


Care to explain why you think inconsistent analysis is a fair way to refute my prior claims of inconsistency?

Chronz
10-10-2013, 12:51 PM
Lol Kobe won that game for the Lakers single-handedly and your still nitpicking. :facepalm: They were down by 18 in the third quarter before Kobe went on a tear and won the game for them. Perhaps he should have passed more to his horrible teammates and chanced Smush and Kwame hitting key shots to bring the Lakers back from their 18 point deficit. :rolleyes:

Hes prolly referencing the point in the game when it was clearly over. The score was 96 - 113 with 4 minutes left, the game Bron entered in the FINALS was closer than that with much more time remaining when you decided to berate him for coming in (even though it was Spo's decision to keep all 3 big3 out there).

Raps eventually take their starters out with 2.36 remaining (The game was over long before then btw). Ive seen you guys make note of how much Bron scored (again in a FINALS GAME) well using the same standard you've set for when Bron came in: 11PT Game with 6:04 left to play, Kobe did the following under the same criteria:

Score is 96-108 with 5:30 left to play, Kobe continues to score 15pts.

At 98-113 with 3:49 left to play, Kobe continues to score 9 more pts.

So at which point should Kobe have stopped chucking? Why do you even care? Kobe did this all season long too btw, as he led the league in scoring during garbage time. Do I see any apologies from the kobephiles for this? LMFAO **** no, instead they tout it as a historical season, which it was. So was the game where Kobe stayed in to get his 40-8-8. Sometimes its about sending a message, sometimes its about finding a groove, sometimes its just about playing hard till the coach pulls you out.

koreancabbage
10-10-2013, 01:01 PM
Hes prolly referencing the point in the game when it was clearly over. The score was 96 - 113 with 4 minutes left, the game Bron entered in the FINALS was closer than that with much more time remaining when you decided to berate him for coming in (even though it was Spo's decision to keep all 3 big3 out there).

Raps eventually take their starters out with 2.36 remaining (The game was over long before then btw). Ive seen you guys make note of how much Bron scored (again in a FINALS GAME) well using the same standard you've set for when Bron came in: 11PT Game with 6:04 left to play, Kobe did the following under the same criteria:

Score is 96-108 with 5:30 left to play, Kobe continues to score 15pts.

At 98-113 with 3:49 left to play, Kobe continues to score 9 more pts.

So at which point should Kobe have stopped chucking? Why do you even care? Kobe did this all season long too btw, as he led the league in scoring during garbage time. Do I see any apologies from the kobephiles for this? LMFAO **** no, instead they tout it as a historical season, which it was. So was the game where Kobe stayed in to get his 40-8-8. Sometimes its about sending a message, sometimes its about finding a groove, sometimes its just about playing hard till the coach pulls you out.

1. they are totally blind to obvious truth
2. they have double standards.
3. they don't like the truth
4. i don't even know why they try - even if they believe that this forum is all about LeBron, they still post in it.
5. they are irrational.

He couldn't even answer the question on what Kobe's weaknesses are.

They are on the defensive and are irrational people (Amo1ler and Illusionist and basically who ever have a lack of thinking on their behalf that agree with 99% of what Amos1ler says)

Amo1ler does offer some good points when its not about Kobe or Lebron but even the slightest talk of Lebron or something neutral against Kobe..... and Illusionist is just a groupie.

Chronz
10-10-2013, 01:03 PM
Kobe did, but Shaq hadn't done anything prior to winning in LA and Lebron chose to play with a proven champion in Miami in Wade,
So was Shaq a better player than Wade or wasn't he? What does choosing to play with a proven winner (a proven winner who has proven unable to get out of R.1 in years btw) have to do with Shaq being a player so dominant, that it could win a FINALS game with Kobe playing a lowly 8 minutes. At what point in Brons career has he been able to carry such little responsibility that his team could win against high level competition without him playing? Only against first round fodder thats for sure. You take Bron away in the series vs the Pacers/Celtics, they lose. Hell it took Bron going nova for his teams to even survive. Why would playing alongside a guy who has proven incapable of winning (like that ?) beyond the first round matter more than playing alongside the MVP of the league and a team that could win a Finals game without you?

Chronz
10-10-2013, 01:07 PM
Except Phil Jackson was not a great coach before the Bulls, which is why he did not have a job.
Which is why he had Tex Winters at his side. Lemme guess, Tex Winters wasn't great before MJ either huh. According to Pippen, it wasnt until Phil showed up that MJ became more of a team oriented person (not just player, but PERSON)


And like I said, Pippen was not a great player when he came to the Bulls, so let's not act like he came in a star like Wade did a player who actually led a team to a title as the man.
Wade wasn't a great player when he went to Miami. It was only after Shaq that he became great. See what I did there. I correlated a minor detail to explain why something that could have happened organically, was caused by the presence of a "proven winner". Pippen was on his way to becoming great, its not like he was drafted in the 2nd round and didn't possess tantalizing skills for such a big player. Everyone knew he had Point-Forward capabilities.

L8kers4life
10-10-2013, 01:08 PM
I love how everyone accuses Kobe of being a horrible teammate even though his teammates have had their best seasons with him and have gotten much larger contracts than they were actually worth. Then when Wade and Bosh aren't quite getting the stats they got before teaming up with Lebron, they are all of the sudden bums. LMAO! The hypocrisy knows no bounds. It can't ever be because the system Lebron runs doesn't play to their strengths and he needs to get all the stats or anything, it's automatically Bosh and Wade's fault that they aren't performing the way they used to before him. Then even more hypocritically, when Kobe's teammates under perform, he is not a good leader. Give me a break. You all have absolutely zero credibility.

Here is your logic...

Kobe's teammates under perform means that Kobe is a bad leader.

Lebron's teammates under perform means that they are bums and underachieving.

Can you all see why this is completely asinine now? Seriously, what are you all smoking because I want some too.

Fact is... Lebron turned Wade and Bosh into Mo Williams and Antawn jamison and he is not held accountable for any of this by any of you. In fact, you all put 100% of the blame on Wade and Bosh and zero on James. Give me a break.

How many playoff games did Gasol win before teaming up with Kobe again??? Oh thats right ZERO!!! Put that in your pipes and smoke it next time you want to falsely claim that Kobe is a bad leader and teammate. It just simply isn't true.


Best Post I have read in a long time

Chronz
10-10-2013, 01:13 PM
It's funny how people like to keep mentioning Bynum and Odom. Bynum was hurt the majority of the time and LO was in outer space half the time.....

But anyway Lebron had the most help. I don't think we will see Bynum, Odom,Vujachick,Walton or MWP in the Hall of fame......
Agreed, I just wish the kobephiles would keep this in mind when they speak of Brons help. You know, the same guys that played injured and in Wade's case, in the decline as opposed to the prime of their careers.

When Bron has won chips, Wade has never played at a level ahead of Pau. Bron gets faulted for his loss with his first year teammates, they were reliant on talent more than cohesion, no doubt about it. But every year since then? Hes been so utterly dominant that it has Larry Legend questioning if anyone has ever done better.

koreancabbage
10-10-2013, 01:16 PM
I love how everyone accuses Kobe of being a horrible teammate even though his teammates have had their best seasons with him and have gotten much larger contracts than they were actually worth. Then when Wade and Bosh aren't quite getting the stats they got before teaming up with Lebron, they are all of the sudden bums. LMAO! The hypocrisy knows no bounds. It can't ever be because the system Lebron runs doesn't play to their strengths and he needs to get all the stats or anything, it's automatically Bosh and Wade's fault that they aren't performing the way they used to before him. Then even more hypocritically, when Kobe's teammates under perform, he is not a good leader. Give me a break. You all have absolutely zero credibility.

Here is your logic...

Kobe's teammates under perform means that Kobe is a bad leader.

no one said that, now you're just making that up. just a horrible teammate.


Lebron's teammates under perform means that they are bums and underachieving.

Can you all see why this is completely asinine now? Seriously, what are you all smoking because I want some too.

well ****- you just said the obvious. if they under perform, of course they underachieved.

koreancabbage
10-10-2013, 01:17 PM
Best Post I have read in a long time

if you actually read and comprehend it, it doesn't mean anything :facepalm:

Chronz
10-10-2013, 01:21 PM
+1

the difference is Lebron has the best bench in the league with the greatest three point shooter of all time, who saved his legacy.


+1


+1
Totally original.

dnl123
10-10-2013, 01:25 PM
Best Post I have read in a long time

Except that Wade and Bosh's efficiency has been at their highest playing with Lebron.

Chronz
10-10-2013, 01:26 PM
Lol he and FC think they are something special.

I think nothing of the sort, I simply think I am your intellectual superior. Which isn't saying much.
To you guys however, Im special enough to get my own personal nick name ;). And he thinks Im special enough to be worth mentioning in a post where we all thought JB was dead.

Chronz
10-10-2013, 02:01 PM
Except that Wade and Bosh's efficiency has been at their highest playing with Lebron.

Yes but the loss in usage should accomplish that regardless, in theory anyways. I realize its not quite that simple, the relationship between usage and efficiency isn't an exact science as players do seem to have their own skill curves about them. To explain what I mean Ill point to a comparison I've used often.

Ron Artest vs Trevor Ariza. Who would you say is the better offensive player? Well when it comes to these 2, its totally dependent on the team and what you value.

Before Artest had to share the ball with Kobe (and Gasol AND Odom) he was putting up higher scoring averages on identical TS%. I wouldn't say Kobe made him worse so much as Artest's skill curve never lent itself to the enhanced opportunities provided by both Kobe and Pau(superior players who should be prioritized ahead of Artest), unlike Ariza who so clearly thrived because he was allowed to do things he did best, move without the ball, take advantage of open lanes and slash his way to the rim. He also improved his shot abit as well.

The result was that LA replaced a limited role player who performed his role admirably/efficiently for a guy who may make a mediocre team better than Ariza could but wound up hurting the offense of an elite team the way his predecessor didn't. I predicted this would happen when the 2 switched jerseys. When you look at the on/off court splits, you do find that Ariza was more productive with Kobe or Pau on the court than without them, so you can credit them for some of his success (statistically he benefited from Pau's presence more) but its also a reflection of his talent, hes the kind of player who can take advantage of that. Artest (despite being the superior 1 on 1 scorer) was not quite as effective at utilizing his athleticism to finish those same shot openings.



I dont think its any sort of revelation to say Bron technically made Wade worse. Just as Wade makes Bron worse, what matters is the team. Is Bron or Wade sacrificing for the greater good suppose to be a negative? Ideally you'd like your partners to mesh but if they can still produce at a historic level collectively (which they were doing while Wade was healthy) why is that so wrong?

Like Ive said before, not every player meshes with everyone. Sometimes its not even just about 2 players meshing but how they fit as a trio or unit. Im very interested in this type of analysis, and I do think Kobe is better at making most of his teammates better, but I also feel like hes had better management to get him those players. Bron's best player before Miami was Mo Williams, he of zero All-Star births and only got his sole selection because Stern decided to award the leagues best team a 2nd All-Star, which is very telling because, since when does the team with the leagues best record ever need assistance in awarding a secondary ALL-Star. Everyone knew Cleveland was just a balanced squad, whereas Boston, despite winning less, was more reliant on players outside their main guy. So he went to Miami thinking the Lakers/Celtics and whoever else, would continue their reign of dominance. He was done waiting and it took some time for the team to mesh.

ILLUSIONIST^248
10-10-2013, 02:20 PM
Agreed, I just wish the kobephiles would keep this in mind when they speak of Brons help. You know, the same guys that played injured and in Wade's case, in the decline as opposed to the prime of their careers.

When Bron has won chips, Wade has never played at a level ahead of Pau. Bron gets faulted for his loss with his first year teammates, they were reliant on talent more than cohesion, no doubt about it. But every year since then? Hes been so utterly dominant that it has Larry Legend questioning if anyone has ever done better.Mj's opinion doesn't matter but Larrys does, cool!
You forget to mention that Lebrons bench and roles players are way better than kobes during his run. Lebron also needed the clutchest shot in basketball history to get past an old and weak Spurs team.


Totally original.
If it makes you upset, i'll continue to do it;)

I think nothing of the sort, I simply think I am your intellectual superior. Which isn't saying much.
To you guys however, Im special enough to get my own personal nick name ;). And he thinks Im special enough to be worth mentioning in a post where we all thought JB was dead.

Are you joking, under your name it says I like my high horse, get real dude. FC fits you perfectly since you're a watered down fake Sheldon Cooper.

koreancabbage
10-10-2013, 02:23 PM
Mj's opinion doesn't matter but Larrys does, cool!
You forget to mention that Lebrons bench and roles players are way better than kobes during his run. Lebron also needed the clutchest shot in basketball history to get past an old and weak Spurs team.


If it makes you upset, i'll continue to do it;)


Are you joking, under your name it says I like my high horse, get real dude. FC fits you perfectly since you're a watered down fake Sheldon Cooper.

speak about regurgitation. this guy is even worse than domefavors.