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View Full Version : Could (Old-Wizards) MJ have won a chip as the 2nd best player of a team?



Chronz
10-05-2013, 04:54 PM
If instead of trying to get the Wizards into the playoffs, MJ had prioritized winning a championship, could he have been the 2nd best player on a championship team? How many teams would fit that bill back in those days?

ManningToTyree
10-05-2013, 07:27 PM
He could have But he would have had to take a backseat to somebody which would never happen. Could you imagine Jordan watching someone else dominate the ball in crunch time or take a game winner? I can't

tredigs
10-05-2013, 07:31 PM
'03 Spurs is the gimme here.

J4KOP99
10-05-2013, 08:00 PM
Nets? They probably would have still lost. Spurs is definitely a good option and probably the best one. Some interesting ones would be: T'wolves, Dallas, Sacramento (he'd probably still be the 2nd best on that team), and maybe Detroit.

I'm only taking the 02-03 season into consideration.

Bruno
10-05-2013, 11:23 PM
how about this. had MJ have replaced Kobe on the 2002 Lakers, would they still have gotten past sacramento?

tredigs
10-05-2013, 11:30 PM
how about this. had MJ have replaced Kobe on the 2002 Lakers, would they still have gotten past sacramento?

Ha no. That was Kobe in is early prime, and Sac was just as good as them.

Chronz
10-05-2013, 11:35 PM
'03 Spurs is the gimme here.
I thought that might be the most common response, give it another whirl.

Nobody say the Spurs, who might've been the least talented team to win this decade.

Chronz
10-05-2013, 11:37 PM
how about this. had MJ have replaced Kobe on the 2002 Lakers, would they still have gotten past sacramento?It sounds absurd to suggest its plausibility but MJ in the playoffs? Hard to doubt the man.
How do you feel about old MJ elevating his game in the playoffs? Statistically, how far different were they if you look at Kobe's playoff line vs MJ's regular season line?

Bruno
10-05-2013, 11:40 PM
It sounds absurd to suggest its plausibility but MJ in the playoffs? Hard to doubt the man.
How do you feel about old MJ elevating his game in the playoffs? Statistically, how far different were they if you look at Kobe's playoff line vs MJ's regular season line?

i'm thinking the same thing. if phil limits MJ to 28 in the regular season and he has his legs? thats really damn interesting.

phil burnt out Kobe a bit in the early years, it started to catch up with him in the 2002 post-season (and 2003).

koreancabbage
10-06-2013, 12:01 AM
no, and you know why?

http://blogs.thescore.com/tbj/2012/02/26/all-star-memories-michael-jordans-last-hurrah/

if the media, and Jordan (who know's, maybe he could have declined Carter since he declined TMacs and IVerson's invitation) had anything to do with it, there would be no second-fiddling for Jordan, as Jordan, on the Wizards.

too much ego.

IKnowHoops
10-06-2013, 02:05 AM
If instead of trying to get the Wizards into the playoffs, MJ had prioritized winning a championship, could he have been the 2nd best player on a championship team? How many teams would fit that bill back in those days?

I really doubt it. H'ed have to play with Lebron, and be tied for second with 3 other players that all started. But now that i think about it, maybe he could of been the second best player on the spurs in 2003 and he would of won a ring.

Chronz
10-06-2013, 02:25 AM
I really doubt it. H'ed have to play with Lebron, and be tied for second with 3 other players that all started. But now that i think about it, maybe he could of been the second best player on the spurs in 2003 and he would of won a ring.

How would winning a chip with the Spurs change the way you saw him, if at all.

WatWoudJordanDo
10-06-2013, 09:19 AM
Honestly I would've liked to see him in NJ those years. spurs are to obvious bc they won. But add MJ to the Nets and that 03 finals becomes way more intriguing. And if he had been saved and only used say 28 mins/G he definitely would have put up better playoff #s than the oh-so-offensively-intimidating Kerry Kittles

starks99
10-06-2013, 10:43 PM
No...

Not even CLOSE.

I really don't understand why people continue to elevate this guy's myth. Can a 39 yo Jordan win a chip as the 2nd best player? Lol...did some maroon really just ask that?

He shot 41% at 38, 44.5% at 39. Missed 20 freakin games his first year, probably took a bunch of PED's the next year and was able to play all games magically. He arguably wasn't even the best PLAYER on those 37 win teams (Hamilton and Stackhouse respectively).

Neither of those teams even APPROACHED the playoffs. Right, it wasn't his fault though right? I mean the GM didn't acquire the right talent, yes?

WRONG - he WAS the GM. Jordan has gotten so overrated that even when he has COMPLETE control of player personnel, he STILL loses, and people STILL come up with idiotic questions like this.

To put this in perspective, Monta Ellis has typically put up better #'s than MJ did both years...

Ok, you can now stop this embarrassing thread.

tredigs
10-06-2013, 11:19 PM
No...

Not even CLOSE.

I really don't understand why people continue to elevate this guy's myth. Can a 39 yo Jordan win a chip as the 2nd best player? Lol...did some maroon really just ask that?

He shot 41% at 38, 44.5% at 39. Missed 20 freakin games his first year, probably took a bunch of PED's the next year and was able to play all games magically. He arguably wasn't even the best PLAYER on those 37 win teams (Hamilton and Stackhouse respectively).

Neither of those teams even APPROACHED the playoffs. Right, it wasn't his fault though right? I mean the GM didn't acquire the right talent, yes?

WRONG - he WAS the GM. Jordan has gotten so overrated that even when he has COMPLETE control of player personnel, he STILL loses, and people STILL come up with idiotic questions like this.

To put this in perspective, Monta Ellis has typically put up better #'s than MJ did both years...

Ok, you can now stop this embarrassing thread.

Who do you consider the 2nd best player on the 2003 Spurs, and why would you say that player was convincingly better than a 39 yr old Jordan? Was it baby Parker? Raw Manu? Old man Robinson who only played 23-25 mpg (that would be my choice)? Stephen Jackson?

You emphasize that he never even "APPROACHED" the playoffs - as if they were a 12+ seed, but the fact of the matter is that he was the 10 seed his 1st year back, and the 9 seed the next year (even if it's just 37 wins, I'd say the 1st team outside of the playoffs would be considered approaching it). When you consider the talent level of that cast, it's a reasonable accomplishment.

The PED comments and general dismissal of all things Jordan reek of some resentment though, I'm guessing some of your other 5 odd posts thus far show an agenda.

starks99
10-06-2013, 11:30 PM
Who do you consider the 2nd best player on the 2003 Spurs, and why would you say that player was convincingly better than a 39 yr old Jordan? Was it baby Parker? Raw Manu? Old man Robinson who only played 23-25 mpg (that would be my choice)? Stephen Jackson?

Either Parker or Robinson had more ON COURT impact. Meaning they played their roles to perfection, while Jordan basically played the Monta Ellis role (albeit not as "good"), and thus infused a shot-jacking, selfish aura about the team. Keep in mind, he took way more shots, and played more minutes than either of those guys...

And you could take almost ANY fringe All-Star and put him next to Duncan in that watered down excuse for a league and win. He was THAT good, and the league sucked THAT bad.





You emphasize that he never even "APPROACHED" the playoffs - as if they were a 12+ seed, but the fact of the matter is that he was the 10 seed his 1st year back, and the 9 seed the next year (even if it's just 37 wins, I'd say the 1st team outside of the playoffs would be considered approaching it). When you consider the talent level of that cast, it's a reasonable accomplishment.

Nope. Not when you consider that he took the most shots by far on those teams, and also ASSEMBLED that team. I'd give SLIGHTLY more credit if he just inherited that situation, but he LITERALLY hired drafted signed and traded for EVERYONE on that team. It's A PATHETIC "accomplishment" and he got justly bashed for it as well.


The PED comments and general dismissal of all things Jordan reek of some resentment though, I'm guessing some of your other 5 odd posts thus far show an agenda.


lmfao, so maybe youre just a Jordan jocker whose obsessed with him...see how I can play that game with you?

Resentment? About what. I'd be the first to admit I can't stand the guy, what's your point. That I have to like him only for my opinion to be valid? lol. You don't even know where I freakin rank him on the GOAT list. Maybe I list him #2. Hmm, what would you say then huh? And Name ONE thing I've said that shows a misrepresentation about the facts?

Also, you don't know ANYTHING about me, and are you gonna call out that guy in the "GOAT" thread who bashed MJ and say he's got "resentment" too..

NEWSFLASH kiddo - not EVERYONE likes the guy. A lot of people see through the hype, the shoes, the gear, the Gatorade, the commercials, and the overrated slam dunks, and see him for EXACTLY what he is - a great player, one of the greatest, NOT "thee" greatest.

Btw, I can bash who I want, when I want, and it doesn't mean me or anyone else has an "agenda". I think YOUR agenda is to defend the guy regardless of facts. So maybe YOU have the agenda huh? I'm guessing by your OTHER POSTS that there's a theme here...

Maybe I just can't stand selfish ballhoggers who get overrated? I don't like Kobe either, and I'm a Knicks fan who isn't exactly thrilled with Melo.

Oh noooo....so biased huh? Maybe I appreciate skills, and selflessness, and leadership. You know, like most grownups.

tredigs
10-06-2013, 11:59 PM
Fair points followed by laughable/bitter diatribe.

You're knocking Jordan for essentially playing the role he always played (albeit an old-man version of it), and on a team where there was no legitimate/efficient #1 option that he should have deferred to. A better coach - who wasn't MJ's puppet - would've dictated a more team oriented offense, but regardless their roster was pathetic and not going anywhere.

As to your point that you could take "ALMOST ANY FRINGE ALL STAR AND THEYD WIN IN THAT PATHETIC LEAGUE" (you do realize they beat the 60 win Nash+Finley+Dirk Mavs and Shaq+Kobe's Lakers, right?), well, that's basically the point. TP and Robinson were indeed nice fits next to Duncan's absurd dominance, but nothing more. Without D. Rob they would've needed another solid defensive big to fill in his role for the limited minutes he played, but Parker was more replaceable. It's all fantasy, but there's definitely a scenario where Jordan takes the lesser role and helps lead them to a title as the clear #2.

Your resentment of Jordan reeks due to the random PED allegations. You just come off angry concerning the guy. And for all your "KIDDO, I'M GROWN UP!" comments, just like a child in general.

starks99
10-07-2013, 01:00 AM
lmfao....the only damn child here is the one who is an OBVIOUS Jordan jocking child apologist who can't even admit Jordan was a selfish ballhog especially on those Wizards teams.

Oh no....he possibly took PED's....and? I bet if I turned out right, and it came out that he did in fact take HGH that year, you'd still act like a 12 yo who gets turned on by his MJ poster.

Basically, UNLIKE me, you're resorting to ******** name-calling, despite the fact that I actually used logic and facts, and you don't like it. Waaaaahh, keep crying crybaby. It's called an opinion, an educated one at that.

Uh you do realize he PICKED that "puppet" coach. You realize he SIGNED AND TRADED for EVERY player on that team, and RUINED Kwame's confidence with his insecure narcissistic way of putting down ANYONE who didn't play to his absurd expectations for a 18 yo ROOKIE.

You DO realize that Jordan COULDN'T play that "team role"...that was Pippen's job. And Phil's job. Jordan need to be reeled in...that was always his problem, just like Kobe and Iverson. Only when strong competent coaches like Larry Brown and Phil Jackson came around, did they "change their ways"....only of course to revert right back to that crappy style of play without them.

Cry more, it's Jordan jocking KIDS like you who can't even admit the obvious. I never said he sucked, or that he's NOT a goat candidate. You're just butthurt like most of his stans that defend him like they're gay for him or have some self deluded attraction to him dating back to your childhood.

The Wizards sucked in the weakest Eastern conference probably ever. And guess whose fault that is? JORDAN'S. The Bobcats have SUCKED *** for YEARS under his ownership. HIS FAULT.

You give the credit, you give the blame as well. THAT'S called being an unbiased ADULT.

And unlike you, a little boy, I am also one to admit I don't LIKE HIM. I SAID THAT. OF COURSE I "resented" him and the Bulls. I'm a freakin KNICKS FAN. OF COURSE I should.

Guess what, he also kicked their ***** most often than not, and was the best player in the 90's (aside from 93-95). Guess what, he's amazing, I saw him live at the Garden. Guess what, go away. You can't admit the obvious, I can...

Rndy
10-07-2013, 01:07 AM
If Jordan wanted to ring chase he easily could have wasn't he invited to join the Lakers and be the SF to Kobe and Shaq? He could have had 8-9 rings if he really wanted to hell if the mother ****er didn't retire so many times he could have had 12.

tredigs
10-07-2013, 01:11 AM
Hug, starks99? You write like you're in between lines of cocaine, calm the **** down and read/comprehend the comments without your blinders and a staunch agenda in tow if you want to have some worthwhile discussion on here. I'm not having a back and forth with a noob high on his own basketball dogma. It's like you read 3 lines then just went off.

starks99
10-07-2013, 01:22 AM
Hug, starks99? You write like you're in between lines of cocaine, calm the **** down and read/comprehend the comments without your blinders and a staunch agenda in tow if you want to have some worthwhile discussion on here. I'm not having a back and forth with a noob high on his own basketball dogma. It's like you read 3 lines then just went off.


lmfao. First off kid, don't tell me to "calm the **** down". How about YOU "calm the **** down." I guarantee you wouldn't say that to my face in real life, b/c things would get pretty serious fast, and you'd find youself on the ground bleeding...

You are such a punk little ******. GROW THE ***** UP. Someone doesn't like your moronic opinion, and you assume your dogmatic opinion is the only one that matters.

Cocaine? lol. What the hell are you talking about? So you're an ex-drug addict now huh? B/c I'm laughing at how stupid you sound, and b/c I write a lot and fill it with facts or educated backdrops while you just say stupid crap after stupid crap. Ok...I'm gonna call you a pedofile. B/c um you sound like one. I can play that idiotic game too. Hurts don't it...

Go retire to your mom's basement kiddo. Blinders? You clearly CAN'T READ. I can't stand idiots like you who use passive aggressiveness and are OBVIOUS hypocrites. Agenda? Where have you ONCE admitted I could POSSIBLY be right, when these are KNOWN facts.

It's one thing to say Jordan was great, it's another to blindly defend the guy b/c you get butthurt whenever someone DESTROYS your crap opinions.

IKnowHoops
10-07-2013, 05:02 PM
How would winning a chip with the Spurs change the way you saw him, if at all.

I don't think it would have changed to much. That team was brilliantly coached. And even though there number two guy wasn't a high caliber all-star, they had 9 guys that could go in there and play well. What the Spurs lacked in a #2, they more than made up for it with coaching and depth. I was/am a big spurs fan and even the 2003 team was very good. They had 1 A+ player and 8 other guys who were at the C+/B- level. You look at a guy like Bruce Bowen, probably the best on ball defender in the league at the time, and could hit the corner three at a very great clip. Sucked at everything else, but Pop kept him in positions to play to his strengths. On another team a coach may have him trying to do a little bit of everything and therefore he'd be terrible there. On the spurs though he was a G. Pop knew how to use players, and the Spurs had a bunch of guys that really weren't all that, but on the spurs they all played at optimal levels because of the coaching.

IKnowHoops
10-07-2013, 05:04 PM
I don't think it would have changed to much. That team was brilliantly coached. And even though there number two guy wasn't a high caliber all-star, they had 9 guys that could go in there and play well. What the Spurs lacked in a #2, they more than made up for it with coaching and depth. I was/am a big spurs fan and even the 2003 team was very good. They had 1 A+ player and 8 other guys who were at the C+/B- level. You look at a guy like Bruce Bowen, probably the best on ball defender in the league at the time, and could hit the corner three at a very great clip. Sucked at everything else, but Pop kept him in positions to play to his strengths. On another team a coach may have him trying to do a little bit of everything and therefore he'd be terrible there. On the spurs though he was a G. Pop knew how to use players, and the Spurs had a bunch of guys that really weren't all that, but on the spurs they all played at optimal levels because of the coaching.

Jordan probably would have averaged around 14pts a game playing within pops system. Probably would of shot at around 48-50% too.

Hellcrooner
10-07-2013, 05:38 PM
No but he could have been a hell of a third Wheel for the lakers had he accepted Phils offer as soon as he knew bout Jordan wanting to play again.

He would probably have 8 rings now too.

Rndy
10-07-2013, 07:38 PM
No but he could have been a hell of a third Wheel for the lakers had he accepted Phils offer as soon as he knew bout Jordan wanting to play again.

He would probably have 8 rings now too.

What a great post wish I thought of that first! :p

Eagles710
10-07-2013, 08:09 PM
1. I hate when people call the nba championship a CHIP .. very ghetto lol
2. This Question is Dumb
3. PSD rides jordans Nuts a lil to hard , not saying he was not AMAZING , but more then half the people here never seen him play

Chronz
10-07-2013, 09:36 PM
1. I hate when people call the nba championship a CHIP .. very ghetto lol
2. This Question is Dumb
3. PSD rides jordans Nuts a lil to hard , not saying he was not AMAZING , but more then half the people here never seen him play
Is being better than an old Robinson really so out of line?

Bruno
10-07-2013, 09:45 PM
^no.

its not like chronz is asking if he could put up 30 ppg.

ghettosean
10-07-2013, 10:25 PM
The 94 bulls if it was an old Wizards MJ joining that squad... lol.

I know they weren't champions but we all know if half a MJ played with them they would have squeeked by and won that year... Pippen got robbed that year!!!

JasonJohnHorn
10-08-2013, 12:16 AM
Yes... I think so... you take out Rip Hamilton on the 04 Pistons and add Jordan... I think he'd be the second best player on that team... maybe the best....

Chronz
10-08-2013, 02:00 AM
Yes... I think so... you take out Rip Hamilton on the 04 Pistons and add Jordan... I think he'd be the second best player on that team... maybe the best....

Thats an interesting team and a good example, but it was 1 year too late.


The 94 bulls if it was an old Wizards MJ joining that squad... lol.

I know they weren't champions but we all know if half a MJ played with them they would have squeeked by and won that year... Pippen got robbed that year!!!
Another interesting team, Pippen would definitely be the teams best player but a crazy what if scenario given he played with prime MJ.

tredigs
10-08-2013, 02:01 AM
Yes... I think so... you take out Rip Hamilton on the 04 Pistons and add Jordan... I think he'd be the second best player on that team... maybe the best....

Maybe 5th best, factoring in both ends. Rip, Chauncey, Sheed + Ben Wallace.

Rndy
10-08-2013, 02:08 AM
Maybe 5th best, factoring in both ends. Rip, Chauncey, Sheed + Ben Wallace.

Not like Jordan was an slouch defensively. Wallace was such a black hole offensively Jordan would at least be the 2 or 3rd best player Depending how he played he with Chauncey and Prince.

Chronz
10-08-2013, 02:11 AM
You might be right. RIP wasnt even the teams 2nd best player but I do think MJ could have replaced Rip that year though he was essential in guarding the quicker guards that Billups couldn't keep up with. Not sure an old MJ can do that but he can replace his scoring IMO.

tredigs
10-08-2013, 02:48 AM
Not like Jordan was an slouch defensively. Wallace was such a black hole offensively Jordan would at least be the 2 or 3rd best player Depending how he played he with Chauncey and Prince.

Wallace was nothing on offense, but he was playing some of the most dominant D I've ever seen. I'd easily - EASILY - take his impact over Jordan at that age.

And yeah, Jordan was kind of a slouch defensively at that point. He was as much a non-factor on that end as Wallace was offensively.

HoopsMachine
10-08-2013, 07:46 AM
While I think they needed more than just another player for a championship, I would say that at least for them to make the playoffs they could have used an All-star big.

NoahH
10-08-2013, 03:39 PM
how about this. had MJ have replaced Kobe on the 2002 Lakers, would they still have gotten past sacramento?

They didnt get past Sacramento either the refs rigged that one!

NoahH
10-08-2013, 03:41 PM
2002-03 76ers :P?

PG Iverson
SG Michael Jordan
SF Keith Van Horn
PF Derrick Coleman
C Todd MacCulloch