PDA

View Full Version : The Greatest Of All Time.



telly2390
10-05-2013, 02:29 PM
When you think of the best player people assume Jordan and they are wrong. To me. Their is no clear cut basketball because theirs always somebody that can do something better. I believe in evolution of players. Players today are a lot more skilled and bigger, faster, and stronger. I don't know why people overlook that. People that watched basketball in the 60s know d*mn well Wilt wasn't as strong as Shaq. Nobody talks about that. It's always what Wilt did against smaller players.

Same thing with Jordan. I'll give him one thing. He played against some of the best players to ever play, but what I have a problem with is when Magic and Bird was in their prime. Jordan was losing, but nobody brought up that fact because Jordan was on every poster, every tv, and selling out arenas. It was clear from the moment that Jordan stepped on the court he was better then Magic and Bird and the media is the reason for that. When Jordan was having his bad years. He was another Kobe. Once he started winning everybody started drinking the water. He dominated his whole career. I look at his career the same way as Wilt's. He was the the 1st of his kind and athletically the best out there. On top of that he benefited from defenses playing man. No way he would've did that with a zone.

Another thing I can't stand is when people discredit Kobe. As far as skill. The closest we've seen to Jordan and he does something's better, but what kills me is people will say Jordan is better then Magic, but Kobe isn't. Dont make any sense. Kobe is the better offensive player and defensive player. All Magic could say is he was the best teammate. Another things is when I hear Kobe had Shaq. Really? Does anybody not remember Shaq calling Kobe the best player in the league after they beat the Nets? Kobe was clearly the better player. Shaq was just more dominant. The Centers he played were garbage during his Lakers years where Guards were thriving during that time, but in all reality. Everybody has had somebody. Magic had Kareem. Jordan had Pippen. The list goes on and on. You can never discredit a player because of the talent around him. You look at what he does. He won 3 rings with Shaq and was fortunate to win 2 more. That's greatness. Honestly in a way. The same way people forget how good Magic was because of Jordan is the same treatment Kobe gets because of Lebron. Both Jordan and Lebron were the 1st of their kind.

Overall.. Their is no greatest player. Greatest winner. Yea maybe, but please don't bring stats in the equation. They don't mean *****.

Supreme LA
10-05-2013, 02:35 PM
Umm...there is no player today that is more skilled than Jordan ever was. MJ is the only true master of the game. The man literally has every skill in his arsenal and all the fundamentals to go along with his athleticism. So after reading the 3rd line of your post, I've already concluded that you're wrong.

ThuglifeJ
10-05-2013, 02:50 PM
KAJ had the best basketball career of all time(goat high school and college top 5 NBA)

Wilt was the first great basketball player

Russell was the greatest winner in basketball of all time

Jordan is the greatest player of all time. He's the peak of it all the domination. He won't have what those 3 have but he will be the better player to exist

TheMightyHumph
10-05-2013, 03:37 PM
KAJ had the best basketball career of all time(goat high school and college top 5 NBA)

Wilt was the first great basketball player

Russell was the greatest winner in basketball of all time

Jordan is the greatest player of all time. He's the peak of it all the domination. He won't have what those 3 have but he will be the better player to exist

Mikan was the first great player, and he was also a winner

tredigs
10-05-2013, 03:40 PM
You made an account to bring up a subject that has 10K+ threads dedicated to it already? And your points are paper thin at that. You call Kobe a better offensive player than Magic and continue on with your diatribe in the same sentence, as if that claim is a given and doesn't need to be backed up (being that it's widely considered otherwise, you probably should). There's just too much regurgitated rhetoric in your post, not enough substance.

Chronz
10-05-2013, 04:37 PM
When you think of the best player people assume Jordan and they are wrong. To me. Their is no clear cut basketball because theirs always somebody that can do something better. I believe in evolution of players. Players today are a lot more skilled and bigger, faster, and stronger. I don't know why people overlook that. People that watched basketball in the 60s know d*mn well Wilt wasn't as strong as Shaq. Nobody talks about that. It's always what Wilt did against smaller players.
How would you measure strength tho? What makes you think you know more than the players who actually got to play against these athletes? Let me put it this way;

When Wilt played, EVERYONE called him the strongest player in the league. Yet when it comes to Shaq, we have guys who claimed Artis Gilmore was stronger.

Artis Gilmore was something of a contemporary to Wilt and nobody was saying Gilmore was stronger than he. So why would Shaq be automatically stronger than Wilt? You do realize that certain moves Shaq got away with today would be considered offensive fouls in the 60's right.


Same thing with Jordan. I'll give him one thing. He played against some of the best players to ever play, but what I have a problem with is when Magic and Bird was in their prime. Jordan was losing, but nobody brought up that fact because Jordan was on every poster, every tv, and selling out arenas. It was clear from the moment that Jordan stepped on the court he was better then Magic and Bird and the media is the reason for that. When Jordan was having his bad years. He was another Kobe. Once he started winning everybody started drinking the water. He dominated his whole career. I look at his career the same way as Wilt's. He was the the 1st of his kind and athletically the best out there. On top of that he benefited from defenses playing man. No way he would've did that with a zone.
But he played in the same league as Bird+Magic and still outproduced them. Why would we doubt him and not them? Surely you dont expect miracles to happen and MJ suddenly contending with the likes of Orlando Woolridge as his 2nd best player. Wasn't he like a bench player in LA?


Another thing I can't stand is when people discredit Kobe. As far as skill. The closest we've seen to Jordan and he does something's better, but what kills me is people will say Jordan is better then Magic, but Kobe isn't. Dont make any sense. Kobe is the better offensive player and defensive player. All Magic could say is he was the best teammate.
Thats probably because they dont share your opinion on these claims.


Another things is when I hear Kobe had Shaq. Really? Does anybody not remember Shaq calling Kobe the best player in the league after they beat the Nets? Kobe was clearly the better player.
You actually think Shaq thought Kobe was better than him? Are we suppose to ignore the moments they clashed and Shaq called the Lakers HIS TEAM. You cant take everything at face value like that, you have to actually use logical reasoning. The facts were, the Lakers without Kobe but with Shaq could keep up elite winning%, the Lakers without Shaq but with Kobe were struggling to play .500 ball. That combined with the fact that Shaq was FAR more productive and influential defensively, makes it impossible for Kobe to be the better player. Kobe didn't become the better player until Shaq declined massively and Kobe had that historic season. In other words, as Lakers, Kobe was never the better player.




Overall.. Their is no greatest player. Greatest winner. Yea maybe, but please don't bring stats in the equation. They don't mean *****.
Ill take stats and logic over unsubstantiated theories any day.

telly2390
10-05-2013, 04:50 PM
How about you quit living in the past and step into reality. Look at these players: KG, Duncan, Dirk. Can make a case on the top power forwards of all Time. Duncan is number one and KG could make a case for number 2. Derrick Rose, Russell Westbrook, and Chris Paul are already better skill wise then any point guards the league has ever had. Lebron, KD, Wade and etc. I could go on and on. Fact being Kobe has played against the better players. Jordan dominated when the league was weak. Europeans started integrating the league. Why do you think so many players came outta high school in the 90s? Jordan's great dont get me wrong, but Kobe is a better ball hander, shooter, and passer. So offensive set. Kobe has him in that dept. People are so blind by them old *** posters of Jordan.

TheMightyHumph
10-05-2013, 05:03 PM
How about you quit living in the past and step into reality. Look at these players: KG, Duncan, Dirk. Can make a case on the top power forwards of all Time. Duncan is number one and KG could make a case for number 2. Derrick Rose, Russell Westbrook, and Chris Paul are already better skill wise then any point guards the league has ever had. Lebron, KD, Wade and etc. I could go on and on. Fact being Kobe has played against the better players. Jordan dominated when the league was weak. Europeans started integrating the league. Why do you think so many players came outta high school in the 90s? Jordan's great dont get me wrong, but Kobe is a better ball hander, shooter, and passer. So offensive set. Kobe has him in that dept. People are so blind by them old *** posters of Jordan.

What makes you think that Westbrook, Rose and Paul are better skillwise than Oscar, Magic, Kidd and Stockton?

Or even Maurice Cheeks?

Chronz
10-05-2013, 05:08 PM
How about you quit living in the past and step into reality. Look at these players: KG, Duncan, Dirk. Can make a case on the top power forwards of all Time. Duncan is number one and KG could make a case for number 2. Derrick Rose, Russell Westbrook, and Chris Paul are already better skill wise then any point guards the league has ever had. Lebron, KD, Wade and etc. I could go on and on. Fact being Kobe has played against the better players. Jordan dominated when the league was weak. Europeans started integrating the league. Why do you think so many players came outta high school in the 90s? Jordan's great dont get me wrong, but Kobe is a better ball hander, shooter, and passer. So offensive set. Kobe has him in that dept. People are so blind by them old *** posters of Jordan.

Do you plan on responding to any of our rebuttals, or do you insist on being like every other kobephile here, just regurgitating the same flawed reasoning

ThuglifeJ
10-05-2013, 05:18 PM
Not to Wilts extent. I'm talking where people would say he's the greatest. At that time the sport was still early and people knew that. People thought Wilt was untoppable though


KAJ had the best basketball career of all time(goat high school and college top 5 NBA)

Wilt was the first great basketball player

Russell was the greatest winner in basketball of all time

Jordan is the greatest player of all time. He's the peak of it all the domination. He won't have what those 3 have but he will be the better player to exist

Mikan was the first great player, and he was also a winner

TheMightyHumph
10-05-2013, 05:26 PM
Not to Wilts extent. I'm talking where people would say he's the greatest. At that time the sport was still early and people knew that. People thought Wilt was untoppable though

When Mikan played, he was a bigger star than Wilt. Won Titles also.

At the old MSG, on the night of a Knicks-Lakers game, the marquee read "Tonight Knicks vs. George Mikan".

Chronz
10-05-2013, 05:40 PM
I know the sport evolves, but the sport that Mikan played was significantly different than any other era. No shot clock changes everything, moreso than the 3pt line and lax rules allowing palming.

TheMightyHumph
10-05-2013, 05:47 PM
I know the sport evolves, but the sport that Mikan played was significantly different than any other era. No shot clock changes everything, moreso than the 3pt line and lax rules allowing palming.

But Mikan WAS the first great NBA basketball player

Chronz
10-05-2013, 05:51 PM
I get it but can I play Devils advocate anyways. Heres my attempt.

Can you truly say he was the NBA's first great basketball player if his career originated in the BAA that would eventually become the NBA? Pretty weak right...

flea
10-05-2013, 05:58 PM
Kobephilia is a disease. Have your child vaccinated today.

TheMightyHumph
10-05-2013, 06:12 PM
I get it but can I play Devils advocate anyways. Heres my attempt.

Can you truly say he was the NBA's first great basketball player if his career originated in the BAA that would eventually become the NBA? Pretty weak right...

Yeah, very weak.

telly2390
10-05-2013, 06:41 PM
If we were playing pick up ball basketball no way John Stockton would get picked. The only person you have a case for is Magic and that's because he's 6'9. A 6'9 point guard isn't rare anymore. How many players that tall can push the ball up the court now? Magic wasn't a fast guy and he sure wasn't athletic. He used his size to his advantage. Guess you don't watch basketball.

Bostonjorge
10-05-2013, 06:41 PM
Jordan is on top of kobe because of his rings. Perfect example I believe KG is better then Duncan but Duncan's rings will always have him higher in the rankings. Kobe career is not over and we don't know who will be playing with kobe in the future to help him catch or even surpass Jordan.

telly2390
10-05-2013, 06:42 PM
I would agree. Out of anybody. Kareem deserves that title more then anybody..

telly2390
10-05-2013, 06:45 PM
I feel the exact same way.. It's only because of the rings.. I feel the same way about the Duncan and KG thing too. I wish your mind was like others.

koreancabbage
10-05-2013, 07:00 PM
What makes you think that Westbrook, Rose and Paul are better skillwise than Oscar, Magic, Kidd and Stockton?

Or even Maurice Cheeks?

just the evolution of the game of basketball players. There is greater parity in skills in this league than there was before but that is just relative. There are better basketball players and better athletes in this day and age. there is simply no rebuttal about that.

koreancabbage
10-05-2013, 07:01 PM
Jordan is on top of kobe because of his rings. Perfect example I believe KG is better then Duncan but Duncan's rings will always have him higher in the rankings. Kobe career is not over and we don't know who will be playing with kobe in the future to help him catch or even surpass Jordan.

at least you recognize Kobe needs help, some people here will use that argument against anyone not named Kobe. =P

telly2390
10-05-2013, 07:09 PM
He outproduced Magic and Bird, but who was winning the rings when it was all said and done. And you wanna talk about what Shaq did? Talk about the fact that Jordan retired and the Bulls were still good. Almost Finals good remember?

telly2390
10-05-2013, 07:13 PM
Let me make one last point. In the history of basketball has their ever been a case where a team loses its best player and the team still makes the playoffs. People act like they got amnesia when it comes to remembering after Jordan retired. Pippen took the Bulls farther then Jordan ever had. Talk about the fact that Jordan was the greatest player in the world and his team still wins and almost made it too the finals.

To me that speaks volumes on just what kinda impact he made.

Mr_Jones
10-05-2013, 07:34 PM
What makes you think that Westbrook, Rose and Paul are better skillwise than Oscar, Magic, Kidd and Stockton?

Or even Maurice Cheeks?

Lol, skillwise? NO FREAKING WAY. That's all Kidd and Stockton were especially.

Players back then were so much more skilled. Today, they are more athletic and have the physical advantage along with the knowledge of knowing how to play basketball in a flashy manner. And today, if you're flashy, you're good--which is such stupid logic.

Players today are probably harder to guard just because of the athleticism, but back then, they were better players.

jerellh528
10-05-2013, 07:49 PM
No one can really say for sure if the better players were today, yesterday, tomorrow. Or who the greatest of all time is. It's always going to be that way because there is no foolproof way to make that into a fact. And if it's not a fact then it will always be uncertain. Also people have different ways of measuring it all, what makes on player great to one person might not be the same for everyone else. It's relative and opinion. That's one thing that makes sports great, when people think their opinion is stone and bash others for thinking differently it's kinda useless because we have our opinions already based on what we enjoy as fans. no opinion, stat, YouTube video, or quote will change that.

TheMightyHumph
10-05-2013, 08:03 PM
just the evolution of the game of basketball players. There is greater parity in skills in this league than there was before but that is just relative. There are better basketball players and better athletes in this day and age. there is simply no rebuttal about that.

I see no sign that what you are saying is true. Would that be a rebuttal?

TheMightyHumph
10-05-2013, 08:06 PM
He outproduced Magic and Bird, but who was winning the rings when it was all said and done. And you wanna talk about what Shaq did? Talk about the fact that Jordan retired and the Bulls were still good. Almost Finals good remember?

Didn't even get to the ECF.

TheMightyHumph
10-05-2013, 08:07 PM
If we were playing pick up ball basketball no way John Stockton would get picked. The only person you have a case for is Magic and that's because he's 6'9. A 6'9 point guard isn't rare anymore. How many players that tall can push the ball up the court now? Magic wasn't a fast guy and he sure wasn't athletic. He used his size to his advantage. Guess you don't watch basketball.

Did someone compare Stockton and Magic?

starks99
10-06-2013, 10:59 PM
I guess losing for 6 straight years, winning ONE MVP in 88 on a 50 win team, no championships, and ONE DPOY makes you the "goat".

LOL.

Meanwhile, Russell, Bird, Magic, and Duncan started winning RIGHT AWAY. And they did so with and without great talent around them.

I'll repeat that - in the 80's, the "golden era" of the NBA - this is Jordan's resume when he put up by far his best stats of his career:

No Finals appearances, 1 MVP, 1 DPOY.

Then MAGICALLY Phil Jackson comes in, giving Pippen and Grant more involvement in the triangle, and they start winning...but only when Detroit, Boston, and LA get OLD and INJURED.

All but ONE of his championships featured a team he faced that had one a championship before (except Worthy got injured in Game 2, and was never the same, barely played, Magic was old as hell, and the Lakers were winning that series until....wait for it... PIPPEN switched onto Magic, b/c Magic was doing w/e he wanted against Jordan).

I'm sorry, but do kids these days just like gloss over the first 6 years or something?

Oh but those teams had better talent right?

87 - first round - McHale breaks his foot - oh no the Celtics are doomed right? WRONG.

Bird takes over, flushes the Bulls down the toilet, Jordan chokes, sweep, 2nd year in a row.


And the OP is right...most of you are WRONG. Every top 5-6 player has a legit claim to GOAT. This ain't hockey kids, Jordan is NOT Gretzky.

starks99
10-06-2013, 11:12 PM
Wanna talk about "skills" -

only TWO players in NBA HISTORY led their team 94% of the time in points, rebounds, assists, steals, and FT%:

Oscar and Bird.

By FAR the two most skilled all-around players ever...

starks99
10-06-2013, 11:19 PM
It was clear from the moment that Jordan stepped on the court he was better then Magic and Bird and the media is the reason for that. When Jordan was having his bad years. He was another Kobe. Once he started winning everybody started drinking the water. He dominated his whole career. I look at his career the same way as Wilt's. He was the the 1st of his kind and athletically the best out there. On top of that he benefited from defenses playing man. No way he would've did that with a zone.



First off yea Jordan has SOME things in common with Wilt. SOME.

But wtf? Clear he was "better" than Magic and Bird? LOLLLLLLLLLS.

NO.

If anything it was "clear" both those guys were FAR better and also made teammates better.

From 84-91 (the years that Bird and Magic's careers coincided with Jordan's) - Bird had 2 MVP's, Magic had 3, and Jordan had 2.

Sounds pretty godamn even to me! And that's not even taking into account the fact that those were Jordan's PRIME years, while Magic and PARTICULARLY Bird were no longer in theirs...

tredigs
10-07-2013, 12:38 AM
^You're not winning MVP unless you're on a top 1-3 team in the conference, period. And that's something that Jordan (and nobody else) were accomplishing with that cast in his first few seasons. And 83-88 were Magic and Bird's peak bud (up to 91 for Magic). No longer in their prime? What? I'm fine with you arguing Magic or Bird over MJ, but make sense.

TheMightyHumph
10-07-2013, 01:09 AM
^You're not winning MVP unless you're on a top 1-3 team in the conference, period. And that's something that Jordan (and nobody else) were accomplishing with that cast in his first few seasons. And 83-88 were Magic and Bird's peak bud (up to 91 for Magic). No longer in their prime? What? I'm fine with you arguing Magic or Bird over MJ, but make sense.

Let's talk about Kareem's '75-'76 MVP

starks99
10-07-2013, 01:35 AM
****, I'll do you a favor:

Give Jordan 91-92, even though Magic had retired, and Bird barely played AT ALL - making it EIGHT years of coincided years:

Magic: 3 mvp's, 3 chips
Bird: 2 mvp's, 2 chips
Jordan: 3 mvp's, 2 chips

See how this goes?

hidalgo
10-07-2013, 01:37 AM
Jordan is the GOAT

the vast majority of people agree, & they're right

starks99
10-07-2013, 01:39 AM
Jordan is the GOAT

the vast majority of people agree, & they're right

TONS of people disagree....

and THEY'D be "right".

See how I can do that...

Usually Jordan stans just say quick nonsensical 1 liners like that without any real reasons.

Even obsessive MJ fans use advanced stats rather than logic and deduction, and common sense. When they probably don't even understand what the formulas for those "advanced stats" mean or are....

It's hilariously pathetic.

KingPosey
10-07-2013, 01:46 AM
I get annoyed listening to people talk about how much bigger and faster people are since Jordan. He played against some of these guys and its not a monster gap, evolution of the body and science hasn't created the chasm people pretend exists.

We aren't discussing 1930s baseball vs today. It's completely ridiculous.

SanPitte
10-07-2013, 01:48 AM
How about Bird and Magic both saying that Jordan was the best?

starks99
10-07-2013, 02:01 AM
How about Bird and Magic both saying that Jordan was the best?

Bird NEVER said that....EVER.

More ignorance. Show me the quote kid. He said he was "god' for ONE game...b/c Bird was EXTREMELY humble and complimentary as is Magic. Bird also said Magic was the best he'd ever seen....troll.

Too bad MJ is so full of himself like Wilt was.

starks99
10-07-2013, 02:05 AM
Should I start by comparing the rosters that MJ had to begin his career to those of Magic and Bird? Should I link you video of Cowens as the starting center on a 60 win Larry Bird team since you didn't even know they played together? Should I link you McHale and Parish's stats (dominant) without Bird in the year he got injured, even though both were in their 30's? Obviously Magic and Bird both were incredible talents and made those around them better (better teammates than MJ, imo), but you are so blinded with vitriol for MJ that you can't seem to comprehend that their situations were in no way alike to enter the league.

I'll just let you be and let your ramblings get you banned on your own. You're a cancer.


lmfao the ONLY godamn "cancer' is you dufus. You think you WON'T get "banned". You're a troll who doesn't even realize the literal "vitriol" that's come out of YOUR mouth...

Typical sociopath. Rambling? LOL. The only damn one "rambling' is you with your obsessive gay obsession with defending MJ, despite the fact that all you do is show your "vitriol" for Magic and Bird, and their DOMINANCE during HALF of MJ's career. Even LEBRON got to a Finals before MJ did. You probably just can't stand the fact that Bird raped MJ in 87 even when McHale went down.

Anyways, Cowens retired that year, and didn't even finish the year. Are you serious? That same team that didn't change a damn thing except Bird being there. Keep it up though, you make yourself look stupid just to make me look good.

How about the fact that while Magic lost Kareem, and Bird got injured, lost DJ, and McHale and Parrish were old and injured, Jordan had a HEALTHY Pippen, Grant, and Armstrong, and the goat coach? Or the fact that without Jordan the Bulls pushed the Finals Knicks to 7 games in the 2nd round...

Hmm.....you LOSE no matter HOW you try and trollishly justify it to your lil self.

How about the fact that without Bird McHale and Parrish got SWEPT in the playoffs. How about without Magic the Lakers got bounced in the 1st round the next year.

TROLL. I'd LOVE you to try and say that fake condescending crap to my face in real life and see you get beaten down to the ground like the true "cancer" you ACTUALLY are.

EIGHT years of coincided years. EIGHT. Gtfo here and stop trolling kid...or hell, gimme your address and we can do this in person. ;.

hidalgo
10-07-2013, 03:01 AM
Let me make one last point. In the history of basketball has their ever been a case where a team loses its best player and the team still makes the playoffs. People act like they got amnesia when it comes to remembering after Jordan retired. Pippen took the Bulls farther then Jordan ever had. Talk about the fact that Jordan was the greatest player in the world and his team still wins and almost made it too the finals.

To me that speaks volumes on just what kinda impact he made.since when is the 2nd round "almost the finals"? 94 Bulls lost in the 2nd round

that speaks volumes to what kinda impact he made? so you're gonna take a maxed out 94 Bulls team who way over achived because their defense was really good, & make that into Jordan being dog ***? haha. so stupid. they won 6 straight championship when MJ played a full season from 91-98, but no he had no impact because the 94 bulls lost in the 2nd round(almost the finals? yea almost the ECF you mean)

losing in the 2nd round is way cooler than 6 championships & 6 finals mvps. yea his impact sucked

hidalgo
10-07-2013, 03:02 AM
TONS of people disagree....

and THEY'D be "right".

See how I can do that...

Usually Jordan stans just say quick nonsensical 1 liners like that without any real reasons.

Even obsessive MJ fans use advanced stats rather than logic and deduction, and common sense. When they probably don't even understand what the formulas for those "advanced stats" mean or are....

It's hilariously pathetic.you can hate all you want, but you're in the minority right where your opinion belongs

Jordan has the most finals mvps ever, the most ppg ever in the regular season & more importantly the playoffs. also the biggest most iconic clutch shots, & huge games in the playoffs & finals. nobody elses playoff numbers touch MJ's. 6 finals mvps, twice as many as the next closest guy. took out the Pistons & Lakers in 91 to end their reign & start the Bulls reign, didn't duck them, & no they weren't old, people can look at their rosters & ages if they wanna find out, not even close to old teams. not that "old" is a bad thing, because the 2013 spurs were awesome, & a lot more old teams were great. anyway, everything points to him being the best, but your Jordan hater agenda in your mind makes you blind to it, so you will ignore all that. pointless aguring it. just enjoy that minority you're in, because your idiotic opinion of MJ will always be shared by only a small minority of whiney turds, mutants & trolls like yourself, so ha freaking ha at you

USMCLaker
10-07-2013, 03:16 AM
Oh the great PSD where people who confront smack talkers get banned and the smack talkers go on. LOL, pathetic.

bagwell368
10-07-2013, 06:39 AM
Mikan was the first great player, and he was also a winner

Mikan wouldn't even start, and perhaps not even make a top 30 D1 team today. His career was short and he faced nobody that could make an NBA team today save perhaps in his final regrettable year (after retiring for a year) in Pettit.

It's like talking about a ML pitcher from 1893 pitching today - start with the fact the rubber was 50 feet from home plate....

bagwell368
10-07-2013, 06:42 AM
****, I'll do you a favor:

Give Jordan 91-92, even though Magic had retired, and Bird barely played AT ALL - making it EIGHT years of coincided years:

Magic: 3 mvp's, 3 chips
Bird: 2 mvp's, 2 chips
Jordan: 3 mvp's, 2 chips

See how this goes?

If all 3 start playing the same age/year one thing is clear, Jordan has less hardware.

SanPitte
10-07-2013, 06:44 AM
when you say that god is disguised as another player, you kinda admit that other player is the best...like when robinson said "you don't solve Hakeem", it was his own admission of Hakeem being better than him

bagwell368
10-07-2013, 06:44 AM
I would agree. Out of anybody. Kareem deserves that title more then anybody..

If KAJ didn't have shrinkage factor vs Moses and other physical Centers, than for sure.

BALLER R
10-07-2013, 07:09 AM
There's more to basketball than just stats and skills. Jordan was great but did he have the ball handling skills of iverson no. But he got to the spots on the court he wanted to when he wanted to. Was he the greatest shooter no, but he got buckets when he wanted to. People always forget the psychological part of basketball.

bagwell368
10-07-2013, 10:07 AM
There's more to basketball than just stats and skills. Jordan was great but did he have the ball handling skills of iverson no. But he got to the spots on the court he wanted to when he wanted to. Was he the greatest shooter no, but he got buckets when he wanted to. People always forget the psychological part of basketball.

So, ummm... dribbling is psychological?

Nobody is the best at everything, that's ridiculous. The question what was the sum total of what they could do vs others in the same time, and how much hardware/awards did they win, and how long did they play at an elite level.

The only four things you could throw at Jordan are:

* when the super teams of the 80's (Celts, Lakers, and Pistons) were at their peak did Jordan beat them? No, but his team wasn't as good as the best of them in those early years

* during his heyday, did he have an equal (or near equal) that played on an equally great team? I have to say no, OTOH that could be one of the biggest reasons he's the GOAT.

* his career was a tad short compared to some - like say KAJ. But wing players usually have shorter careers than elite bigs, so that's in part due to the requirements of the game

* oh yeah, he was pretty intense and selfish. But he wasn't selfish to get points or awards, he was selfish (and churlish to many of his teammates) in order to win. As long as he did win, it's forgiven, but what if only won 2 titles, might be a lot more complaints about him out there.

OK, even if most of these things are true, he wins on points. KAJ and Magic are next closest (anyone that says Kobe gets put on my ignore automatically), and w/o Bird/Red in Celtic land, KAJ has 2-3 more titles, and so does Magic - they might throw some sort of shadow over Jordan, but they didn't - and with no Magic and a healthy Bias the Celts probably win 4-5 more titles and then you have Bird sitting at #2 perhaps. Whomever is at #2 in make-believe land, Jordan probably wins 1 more title over the Rockets if he kept playing. How far can we go? Jordan is the GOAT, although I do prefer GOAT by positions.

ewing
10-07-2013, 10:45 AM
When you think of the best player people assume Jordan and they are wrong. To me. Their is no clear cut basketball because theirs always somebody that can do something better. I believe in evolution of players. Players today are a lot more skilled and bigger, faster, and stronger. I don't know why people overlook that. People that watched basketball in the 60s know d*mn well Wilt wasn't as strong as Shaq. Nobody talks about that. It's always what Wilt did against smaller players.

Same thing with Jordan. I'll give him one thing. He played against some of the best players to ever play, but what I have a problem with is when Magic and Bird was in their prime. Jordan was losing, but nobody brought up that fact because Jordan was on every poster, every tv, and selling out arenas. It was clear from the moment that Jordan stepped on the court he was better then Magic and Bird and the media is the reason for that. When Jordan was having his bad years. He was another Kobe. Once he started winning everybody started drinking the water. He dominated his whole career. I look at his career the same way as Wilt's. He was the the 1st of his kind and athletically the best out there. On top of that he benefited from defenses playing man. No way he would've did that with a zone.

Another thing I can't stand is when people discredit Kobe. As far as skill. The closest we've seen to Jordan and he does something's better, but what kills me is people will say Jordan is better then Magic, but Kobe isn't. Dont make any sense. Kobe is the better offensive player and defensive player. All Magic could say is he was the best teammate. Another things is when I hear Kobe had Shaq. Really? Does anybody not remember Shaq calling Kobe the best player in the league after they beat the Nets? Kobe was clearly the better player. Shaq was just more dominant. The Centers he played were garbage during his Lakers years where Guards were thriving during that time, but in all reality. Everybody has had somebody. Magic had Kareem. Jordan had Pippen. The list goes on and on. You can never discredit a player because of the talent around him. You look at what he does. He won 3 rings with Shaq and was fortunate to win 2 more. That's greatness. Honestly in a way. The same way people forget how good Magic was because of Jordan is the same treatment Kobe gets because of Lebron. Both Jordan and Lebron were the 1st of their kind.

Overall.. Their is no greatest player. Greatest winner. Yea maybe, but please don't bring stats in the equation. They don't mean *****.

wow, is this post full of dumb

archdevil84
10-07-2013, 11:11 AM
Dwade is the greatest of all time and he's stil coming!!!!

koreancabbage
10-07-2013, 12:20 PM
I see no sign that what you are saying is true. Would that be a rebuttal?

so you're saying that players in this age in age are not as skilled or as good as basketball as players 20-30-50 years ago?

I'm even going out on a limb and saying these are even better athletes than the ones of 20-30-50 years ago.

okay, fine, parity might not be as clear as mud and can be subjective to the players in this league but to say these basketball players are worse than the basketball players back in the day is rediculous.

I mean the rules have changed from making it a much less contact sport as well. Its not the players fault if the rules have changed it to being less physical than it was before. is it as competitive, I would say so. but we got players hacking away at each other back in the day which would be technical/flagrant fouls in this day and age.

effen5
10-07-2013, 12:31 PM
Bird NEVER said that....EVER.

More ignorance. Show me the quote kid. He said he was "god' for ONE game...b/c Bird was EXTREMELY humble and complimentary as is Magic. Bird also said Magic was the best he'd ever seen....troll.

Too bad MJ is so full of himself like Wilt was.


"I didn't think anyone was capable of doing what Michael has done to us," marveled Celtics ace Larry Bird. "He is the most exciting, awesome player in the game today. I think it's just God disguised as Michael Jordan."

Jordan's team that year...
Gene Banks
Mike Brown
Fred Cofield
Steve Colter
Dave Corzine
Earl Cureton
Darren Daye
Pete Myers
Charles Oakley
John Paxson
Ben Poquette
Brad Sellers
Sedale Threatt
Elston Turner
Granville Waiters
Perry Young

k bye

effen5
10-07-2013, 12:34 PM
so you're saying that players in this age in age are not as skilled or as good as basketball as players 20-30-50 years ago?

I'm even going out on a limb and saying these are even better athletes than the ones of 20-30-50 years ago.

okay, fine, parity might not be as clear as mud and can be subjective to the players in this league but to say these basketball players are worse than the basketball players back in the day is rediculous.

I mean the rules have changed from making it a much less contact sport as well. Its not the players fault if the rules have changed it to being less physical than it was before. is it as competitive, I would say so. but we got players hacking away at each other back in the day which would be technical/flagrant fouls in this day and age.

IMO, players in this era lacks fundamentals. They might be stronger or more skilled but they all lack fundamentals. There is a reason why a player like Steve Nash is still in the game today, he has fantastic fundamentals....compared to a player like McGee :/

ILLUSIONIST^248
10-07-2013, 02:17 PM
Umm...there is no player today that is more skilled than Jordan ever was. MJ is the only true master of the game. The man literally has every skill in his arsenal and all the fundamentals to go along with his athleticism. So after reading the 3rd line of your post, I've already concluded that you're wrong.

This, Jordan is the hands down GOAT.Close thread.

ILLUSIONIST^248
10-07-2013, 02:21 PM
wow, is this post full of dumb

Just another Heat fan dupe.

Chronz
10-07-2013, 02:31 PM
Just another Heat fan dupe.

Why would a Heat fan think Kobe is better than MJ?

TheMightyHumph
10-07-2013, 02:43 PM
This, Jordan is the hands down GOAT.Close thread.

And yet the thread goes on

todu82
10-07-2013, 03:16 PM
Going with Michael Jordan on this 1.

amos1er
10-07-2013, 03:31 PM
Honestly, I can't see anyone coming close to touching Jordan's legacy.

10 scoring titles
6 finals MVP's
Arguably the most clutch shooter of all time
9 All NBA defensive first teams
10 All NBA first teams
3 time steals champion
1 DPOY
Most importantly, 6 Rings on 6/6 in the finals... Zero game 7's... Only had one All-Star helping him who was never top ten in the NBA at any given point.

This is not even debatable. Lets have this discussion when someone comes along that actually has a chance of threatening his legacy. That day is not here, so lets move on.

koreancabbage
10-07-2013, 03:39 PM
Honestly, I can't see anyone coming close to touching Jordan's legacy.

10 scoring titles
6 finals MVP's
Arguably the most clutch shooter of all time
9 All NBA defensive first teams
10 All NBA first teams
3 time steals champion
1 DPOY
Most importantly, 6 Rings on 6/6 in the finals... Zero game 7's... Only had one All-Star helping him who was never top ten in the NBA at any given point.

This is not even debatable. Lets have this discussion when someone comes along that actually has a chance of threatening his legacy. That day is not here, so lets move on.

How does the way he win his titles, in the manner that you said it, attribute to his greatness? did he score all the points for the team? why did he lose a few games in the finals then? i mean his teammates actually have to show up for him to win games.

koreancabbage
10-07-2013, 03:41 PM
IMO, players in this era lacks fundamentals. They might be stronger or more skilled but they all lack fundamentals. There is a reason why a player like Steve Nash is still in the game today, he has fantastic fundamentals....compared to a player like McGee :/

still can't play defense. fundamentals my ***.

lol but i get what you're saying but McGee is talented but he brain farts. I mean the things he can do is amazing but he's just not right in his mind. lol

ramsizzle
10-07-2013, 04:09 PM
How does the way he win his titles, in the manner that you said it, attribute to his greatness? did he score all the points for the team? why did he lose a few games in the finals then? i mean his teammates actually have to show up for him to win games.

The way he won the titles absolutely matters in discussing the greats of all time. because when arguing greatness the manner in which greatness was achieved must be discussed. Winning the finals all while never reaching a game seven means that the team was never really in doubt. That is the difference. Context.

You see Wilt vs. Russell and its 11-2 domination in rings... but when you see rosters you see how lopsided the teams were. The manner in which greatness was achieved was different. wilt was the lone star for most of his career while Russell benefited from 6 HOF'ers.

Jordan has 6 rings all while being the man and not having anyone near his level on the squad. Jordan never lost a series in which he was favored. There is far too much in jordans favor it even argue this. the numbers were detailed a few posts above me. He is the best ever because he has the total package. he has the rings, stats, and story.

amos1er
10-07-2013, 04:21 PM
The way he won the titles absolutely matters in discussing the greats of all time. because when arguing greatness the manner in which greatness was achieved must be discussed. Winning the finals all while never reaching a game seven means that the team was never really in doubt. That is the difference. Context.

You see Wilt vs. Russell and its 11-2 domination in rings... but when you see rosters you see how lopsided the teams were. The manner in which greatness was achieved was different. wilt was the lone star for most of his career while Russell benefited from 6 HOF'ers.

Jordan has 6 rings all while being the man and not having anyone near his level on the squad. Jordan never lost a series in which he was favored. There is far too much in jordans favor it even argue this. the numbers were detailed a few posts above me. He is the best ever because he has the total package. he has the rings, stats, and story.

+1

SanPitte
10-07-2013, 05:31 PM
Jordan's team that year...
Gene Banks
Mike Brown
Fred Cofield
Steve Colter
Dave Corzine
Earl Cureton
Darren Daye
Pete Myers
Charles Oakley
John Paxson
Ben Poquette
Brad Sellers
Sedale Threatt
Elston Turner
Granville Waiters
Perry Young

k bye

Thank you very much, didn't want to look for it

Hawkeye15
10-07-2013, 07:54 PM
Honestly, I can't see anyone coming close to touching Jordan's legacy.

10 scoring titles
6 finals MVP's
Arguably the most clutch shooter of all time
9 All NBA defensive first teams
10 All NBA first teams
3 time steals champion
1 DPOY
Most importantly, 6 Rings on 6/6 in the finals... Zero game 7's... Only had one All-Star helping him who was never top ten in the NBA at any given point.

This is not even debatable. Lets have this discussion when someone comes along that actually has a chance of threatening his legacy. That day is not here, so lets move on.

yep, it will be extremely difficult for anyone to catch him/pass him. We all agree on that. What we don't agree on, is some players chances died YEARS ago, while a current active player still has a small chance. Likely? Hell to the no. Possible? Window is still slightly open.

Bruno
10-07-2013, 10:20 PM
Honestly, I can't see anyone coming close to touching Jordan's legacy.

10 scoring titles
6 finals MVP's
Arguably the most clutch shooter of all time
9 All NBA defensive first teams
10 All NBA first teams
3 time steals champion
1 DPOY
Most importantly, 6 Rings on 6/6 in the finals... Zero game 7's... Only had one All-Star helping him who was never top ten in the NBA at any given point.

This is not even debatable. Lets have this discussion when someone comes along that actually has a chance of threatening his legacy. That day is not here, so lets move on.

scottie was easily top ten for a long time. he finished 3rd in mvp voting in 1994 i believe.

i agree with the rest of your post.

Bruno
10-07-2013, 10:21 PM
yep, it will be extremely difficult for anyone to catch him/pass him. We all agree on that. What we don't agree on, is some players chances died YEARS ago, while a current active player still has a small chance. Likely? Hell to the no. Possible? Window is still slightly open.
lbj never passes MJ. how could he? rack four more rings in a row? thats not gona happen man.

i think that window is closed as well hawk.

tredigs
10-07-2013, 10:44 PM
lbj never passes MJ. how could he? rack four more rings in a row? thats not gona happen man.

i think that window is closed as well hawk.
What if he wins a DPOY, 3 more MVPs, 4 more rings, has 5 more years of ~27/7/7 on 60% TS, and finishes as the #1 total scorer in NBA history? None of those are too out of question, in my opinion.

It would put him up at 8 MVPs, 6 rings (potentially 6 Finals MVP's), 27/7/7 career average, some of the best advanced stats of all time. I mean, he'd still have more blackmarks on the resume, but he might just brute his way up to arguable GOAT status.

Hawkeye15
10-07-2013, 10:54 PM
lbj never passes MJ. how could he? rack four more rings in a row? thats not gona happen man.

i think that window is closed as well hawk.

The window isn't closed, it's just open a smidge. Cmon now, there hasn't been a player since MJ that has literally crushed the league like LeBron. If his 2011 finals are held against him, so be it. But he has the only chance. Will it happen?

I think not.

TheMightyHumph
10-07-2013, 11:41 PM
It will always be a matter of opinion

Chronz
10-07-2013, 11:49 PM
lbj never passes MJ. how could he? rack four more rings in a row? thats not gona happen man.

i think that window is closed as well hawk.

longevity is the other way to skin a cat but yea, MJ has the PERFECT career story arc . Impossible to exceed barring unseen events

Chronz
10-07-2013, 11:50 PM
scottie was easily top ten for a long time. he finished 3rd in mvp voting in 1994 i believe.

i agree with the rest of your post.

Its easy to agree with facts, its when he inserts his opinion that the argument makes less sense.

amos1er
10-08-2013, 12:20 AM
Its easy to agree with facts, its when he inserts his opinion that the argument makes less sense.

I said he was not top ten when he played with Jordan. 1994 (the year he finished 3rd in MVP voting) Jordan was retired playing baseball.

amos1er
10-08-2013, 12:23 AM
The window isn't closed, it's just open a smidge. Cmon now, there hasn't been a player since MJ that has literally crushed the league like LeBron. If his 2011 finals are held against him, so be it. But he has the only chance. Will it happen?

I think not.

I will agree that it's possible. Just super unlikely. I really can't see anyone living up to the bar Jordan set. Lebron would need to have a miracle run the rest of the way to make a case. 2011 will be held against him... He would need to go back to Cleveland and win at least 4 rings to make up for that IMO.

amos1er
10-08-2013, 01:03 AM
Just as a preemptive rebuttal to Chronz...

In 1997-98 Shaq, Malone, Robinson, Jordan, Duncan,Mourning, Stockton, Barkley, Payton, and Hill were all arguably better.
In 1996-97 Jordan, Malone O'Neal, Hill, Barkley, Kevin Johnson, Olajuwon, Stockton, Payton, and Sabonis were all arguably better.
In 1995-96 Jordan, Robinson, Shaq, Malone, Olajuwon, Brandon, Barkley, Sabonis, Hardaway, and Kevin Johnson were all arguably better.
In 1992-93 Jordan, Olajuwon, Malone, Barkley, Wilkins, Robinson, Shaq, Price, Daughert, and Stockton were all arguably better.
In 1991-92Jordan Robinson Malone Barkley Olajuwon Drexler Daugherty Stockton Ewing Price were all arguably better.
In 1990-91 Jordan, Barkley, Robinson, Magic, Malone, Olajuwon,Kevin Johnson, Ewing, Wilkins, and Stockton were all arguably better.

hidalgo
10-08-2013, 03:51 AM
Honestly, I can't see anyone coming close to touching Jordan's legacy.

10 scoring titles
6 finals MVP's
Arguably the most clutch shooter of all time
9 All NBA defensive first teams
10 All NBA first teams
3 time steals champion
1 DPOY
Most importantly, 6 Rings on 6/6 in the finals... Zero game 7's... Only had one All-Star helping him who was never top ten in the NBA at any given point.

This is not even debatable. Lets have this discussion when someone comes along that actually has a chance of threatening his legacy. That day is not here, so lets move on.truth

tredigs
10-08-2013, 04:11 AM
I said he was not top ten when he played with Jordan. 1994 (the year he finished 3rd in MVP voting) Jordan was retired playing baseball.

Hah - well do you think he actually became a better player when Jordan was gone for a year, or do you think it's more likely that the media simply gave him credit for leading the Bulls in MJ's absence? Age wise they may have actually been his peak seasons, but it's not a significant difference between him at 27 or 31. He was a top 5 defender for half the decade, was top 10 in both Win Shares and MVP voting 5 times, and was very much considered an arguable top 10 player (if not higher) during their championship runs. And that was a league that was more top heavy than our current one. In this NBA, it's no revelation to say that Scottie wouldn't be falling below Harden at #4 on our PSD Top 10 list.

sammyvine
10-08-2013, 06:12 AM
lebron is the goat lol

Hawkeye15
10-08-2013, 10:36 AM
I will agree that it's possible. Just super unlikely. I really can't see anyone living up to the bar Jordan set. Lebron would need to have a miracle run the rest of the way to make a case. 2011 will be held against him...

totally agree. Like I have said, he has maybe a 5% (at best) chance of catching Jordan. Everything needs to go nearly perfect for his career the next 4-5 years for it to be considered.

Snakeyestx
10-08-2013, 11:12 AM
...this whole "Greatest of ALL time" thing is smoke and mirrors.

By saying anyone is the greatest of ALL time, you're basically saying no one will ever be able to do it better - which is bull****, otherwise world records wouldn't be broken.

As for no one is as good as Jordan "Was" ... there might be some truth to that, but you all better keep your eye on Victor Oladipo - he's the got the goods and no one has played as "like" Jordan as he has so similarly that I can recall.

ILLUSIONIST^248
10-08-2013, 12:11 PM
yep, it will be extremely difficult for anyone to catch him/pass him. We all agree on that. What we don't agree on, is some players chances died YEARS ago, while a current active player still has a small chance. Likely? Hell to the no. Possible? Window is still slightly open.

Agreed, Lebrons chances died along time ago. Kobe still has a very slim chance if he can pull off a few more rings.

5ass
10-08-2013, 12:43 PM
...this whole "Greatest of ALL time" thing is smoke and mirrors.

By saying anyone is the greatest of ALL time, you're basically saying no one will ever be able to do it better - which is bull****, otherwise world records wouldn't be broken.

As for no one is as good as Jordan "Was" ... there might be some truth to that, but you all better keep your eye on Victor Oladipo - he's the got the goods and no one has played as "like" Jordan as he has so similarly that I can recall.
From ur lips to gods ears.

Hawkeye15
10-08-2013, 01:09 PM
Agreed, Lebrons chances died along time ago. Kobe still has a very slim chance if he can pull off a few more rings.

haha, no we don't agree. At all.

TheMightyHumph
10-08-2013, 01:21 PM
From ur lips to gods ears.

Does God have ears?

TheMightyHumph
10-08-2013, 01:25 PM
Hah - well do you think he actually became a better player when Jordan was gone for a year, or do you think it's more likely that the media simply gave him credit for leading the Bulls in MJ's absence? Age wise they may have actually been his peak seasons, but it's not a significant difference between him at 27 or 31. He was a top 5 defender for half the decade, was top 10 in both Win Shares and MVP voting 5 times, and was very much considered an arguable top 10 player (if not higher) during their championship runs. And that was a league that was more top heavy than our current one. In this NBA, it's no revelation to say that Scottie wouldn't be falling below Harden at #4 on our PSD Top 10 list.

Let's not forget this about Scotty.

In his finest season, he refused to play the last seconds of regulation in a very important playoff game.

He dogged it in Houston

He was mediocre in Portland.

tredigs
10-08-2013, 02:13 PM
...this whole "Greatest of ALL time" thing is smoke and mirrors.

By saying anyone is the greatest of ALL time, you're basically saying no one will ever be able to do it better - which is bull****, otherwise world records wouldn't be broken.

As for no one is as good as Jordan "Was" ... there might be some truth to that, but you all better keep your eye on Victor Oladipo - he's the got the goods and no one has played as "like" Jordan as he has so similarly that I can recall.

...

tredigs
10-08-2013, 02:15 PM
Let's not forget this about Scotty.

In his finest season, he refused to play the last seconds of regulation in a very important playoff game.

He dogged it in Houston

He was mediocre in Portland.

Do you disagree with anything I said?

Chronz
10-08-2013, 03:10 PM
Just as a preemptive rebuttal to Chronz...


Thats a pretty good list but Pippen was arguably better than them as well. Do you really feel there was a monstrous difference in Pippens level of play from say 91-97. In 98 the back problems pretty much ended his reign but he still had his moments and remained All-NBA/All-Defensive.

Also how does that list look when you remove each teams best player.

This is what I got (pure off hand opinion, no real study)
In 1997-98 Stockton (Finals team)
In 1996-97 Malone/Stockton, Barkley (the 2 teams that met in the WCF)
In 1995-96 Malone, Kemp/GP, Hardaway (Sonics made the Finals)
In 1992-93 Malone/Stockton Price/Daughert, KJ (Suns made the Finals)
In 1991-92 Malone/Stockton, Daugherty/Price , KJ
In 1990-91 Malone/Stockton
Seems like Malone /Stockton underachieved when you focus solely on a teams top 2 players but they were always in the mix. Lots of times the team with a comparable 2nd best player went on to make the Finals or lose to the Finalist.


I left Malone/Stockton and Price/Brad on because depending on what you value, you may have ranked their importance differently and I cant recall which years were their decline years, but they only count for 1 selection. That leaves you with a very small list of teams that can sport another Top-10 ish star to back their main player (by your selections). In a league that was that top heavy, its a pretty significant advantage. The Bulls were able to withstand MJ's retirement for a reason.

Bruno
10-08-2013, 03:52 PM
What if he wins a DPOY, 3 more MVPs, 4 more rings, has 5 more years of ~27/7/7 on 60% TS, and finishes as the #1 total scorer in NBA history? None of those are too out of question, in my opinion.

It would put him up at 8 MVPs, 6 rings (potentially 6 Finals MVP's), 27/7/7 career average, some of the best advanced stats of all time. I mean, he'd still have more blackmarks on the resume, but he might just brute his way up to arguable GOAT status.
he'll need to surpass mj in ring count. he's not getting five more championships man. he'll be in the discussion right behind him with everyone else. blackmarks derail the perfect story, which MJ has in spades. LBJ will have to literally pass him in everything to make up for the story, and that's not happening.


The window isn't closed, it's just open a smidge. Cmon now, there hasn't been a player since MJ that has literally crushed the league like LeBron. If his 2011 finals are held against him, so be it. But he has the only chance. Will it happen?

I think not.

its closed man. the door was sealed shut after 2011. just like it was sealed shut for Kobe and shaq after 2004. LBJ is a legend but he'll never pass MJ. he'll have to surpass him in resume and that's just not gona happen. whatever MJ did, LBJ will have to do one better. he's 29 in december, he's not racking five more ships. no way is that happening.

ILLUSIONIST^248
10-08-2013, 04:40 PM
he'll need to surpass mj in ring count. he's not getting five more championships man. he'll be in the discussion right behind him with everyone else. blackmarks derail the perfect story, which MJ has in spades. LBJ will have to literally pass him in everything to make up for the story, and that's not happening.



its closed man. the door was sealed shut after 2011. just like it was sealed shut for Kobe and shaq after 2004. LBJ is a legend but he'll never pass MJ. he'll have to surpass him in resume and that's just not gona happen. whatever MJ did, LBJ will have to do one better. he's 29 in december, he's not racking five more ships. no way is that happening.

You def need to post more. :clap:

ILLUSIONIST^248
10-08-2013, 04:40 PM
haha, no we don't agree. At all.

:P did you see what i did there? HAHA

Chronz
10-08-2013, 05:06 PM
he'll need to surpass mj in ring count.
What if he wins a title in a fashion so spectacular that you have more people like Bird (who are left wondering if there has ever been a more dominant title run), is that so out of the realm of possibility? What about overall longevity (MJ took many years off)

Bishnoff
10-08-2013, 06:16 PM
KAJ had the best basketball career of all time(goat high school and college top 5 NBA)

Wilt was the first great basketball player

Russell was the greatest winner in basketball of all time

Jordan is the greatest player of all time. He's the peak of it all the domination. He won't have what those 3 have but he will be the better player to exist

What are you basing the bolded on? I'd say that Pistol Pete had a better college career, even if his team never won anything.

koreancabbage
10-08-2013, 07:02 PM
Agreed, Lebrons chances died along time ago. Kobe still has a very slim chance if he can pull off a few more rings.

nope. i can tell you if he wins 5 more rings he will pass Jordan easily. he'll probably beat Jordan is most stats as well. he'll probably end up with 7 Finals MVPs as well if that was the case.

if Kobe and Lebron ends up with the same amount of rings when its all said and done, easily Lebron over Kobe. Thats also b/c Lebron would have same the same amount of Finals MVPs as rings. but he's already the better player already and most effective. if you can't use stats to beat Lebron what can Kobe use? his clutchness? Lebron's already better. use his rings? they both have attributed to the same amount of rings as the leaders of their respective teams? i mean what else?

but it can be derailed by injuries as Kobe has faced over the last few years.

ILLUSIONIST^248
10-08-2013, 07:13 PM
nope. i can tell you if he wins 5 more rings he will pass Jordan easily. he'll probably beat Jordan is most stats as well. he'll probably end up with 7 Finals MVPs as well if that was the case.

if Kobe and Lebron ends up with the same amount of rings when its all said and done, easily Lebron over Kobe. Thats also b/c Lebron would have same the same amount of Finals MVPs as rings. but he's already the better player already and most effective. if you can't use stats to beat Lebron what can Kobe use? his clutchness? Lebron's already better. use his rings? they both have attributed to the same amount of rings as the leaders of their respective teams? i mean what else?

but it can be derailed by injuries as Kobe has faced over the last few years.

Lebron can pass Kobe if he gets 4 rings, but he has to get the next two without having one of the best all round teams ever.

Hawkeye15
10-08-2013, 07:43 PM
its closed man. the door was sealed shut after 2011. just like it was sealed shut for Kobe and shaq after 2004. LBJ is a legend but he'll never pass MJ. he'll have to surpass him in resume and that's just not gona happen. whatever MJ did, LBJ will have to do one better. he's 29 in december, he's not racking five more ships. no way is that happening.

Kobe's was closed a long time ago. His numbers just don't measure up. Bron's do. The problem is, his failure in 2011 is a huge blemish. He has a lot to do to even enter that 5% chance I spoke of. But we need to stop acting like both Kobe and LeBron had/have the same baseline at grabbing that top spot now. Should have a few years ago, but the rings have sealed it. Only LeBron challenges MJ in advanced stats. Kobe is well behind. Always has been, and his longevity and dominance he sustained have topped him out all time. LeBron is what, 28? 29?

Hawkeye15
10-08-2013, 07:44 PM
:P did you see what i did there? HAHA

I know, I know

Hawkeye15
10-08-2013, 07:44 PM
You def need to post more. :clap:

he actually does. Bruno is maybe the fairest Laker fan poster here.

Hawkeye15
10-08-2013, 07:46 PM
nope. i can tell you if he wins 5 more rings he will pass Jordan easily. he'll probably beat Jordan is most stats as well. he'll probably end up with 7 Finals MVPs as well if that was the case.

if Kobe and Lebron ends up with the same amount of rings when its all said and done, easily Lebron over Kobe. Thats also b/c Lebron would have same the same amount of Finals MVPs as rings. but he's already the better player already and most effective. if you can't use stats to beat Lebron what can Kobe use? his clutchness? Lebron's already better. use his rings? they both have attributed to the same amount of rings as the leaders of their respective teams? i mean what else?

but it can be derailed by injuries as Kobe has faced over the last few years.

for me, LeBron has already passed Kobe, assuming he doesn't get hit by a truck and never play again. 1-2 more years of his statistical dominance over Kobe, which I assume is happening, he is past him. Hell, he may already be. He has now had 6 seasons better, as an individual player, than Kobe ever produced.

amos1er
10-08-2013, 11:04 PM
What if he wins a title in a fashion so spectacular that you have more people like Bird (who are left wondering if there has ever been a more dominant title run), is that so out of the realm of possibility? What about overall longevity (MJ took many years off)

Why do you insist on brining up some arbitrary Bird quote as a reference point to justify Lebron's greatness when he clearly has offered a verdict on the debate at hand. If you want to go by what Bird said, why don't you bring up his quote about how if he wanted to have fun he would play with Lebron and if he wanted to win rings he would play with Kobe.

amos1er
10-08-2013, 11:06 PM
for me, LeBron has already passed Kobe, assuming he doesn't get hit by a truck and never play again. 1-2 more years of his statistical dominance over Kobe, which I assume is happening, he is past him. Hell, he may already be. He has now had 6 seasons better, as an individual player, than Kobe ever produced.

You are in definitely in very lonely company on that one.

The vast majority of the worlds greatest basketball minds do not share your opinion.

amos1er
10-08-2013, 11:08 PM
he actually does. Bruno is maybe the fairest Laker fan poster here.

He too does not agree on your current assessment pertaining to Lebron's ranking in the current top players of all-time.

amos1er
10-08-2013, 11:09 PM
Kobe's was closed a long time ago. His numbers just don't measure up. Bron's do. The problem is, his failure in 2011 is a huge blemish. He has a lot to do to even enter that 5% chance I spoke of. But we need to stop acting like both Kobe and LeBron had/have the same baseline at grabbing that top spot now. Should have a few years ago, but the rings have sealed it. Only LeBron challenges MJ in advanced stats. Kobe is well behind. Always has been, and his longevity and dominance he sustained have topped him out all time. LeBron is what, 28? 29?

I would bet you any amount of money you want to put up that Lebron does not come close.

amos1er
10-08-2013, 11:10 PM
Lebron can pass Kobe if he gets 4 rings, but he has to get the next two without having one of the best all round teams ever.

Don't you mean four more rings. Lol And yes, he needs to prove he can win without the greatest team advantage since the 60's Celtics.

Becks2307
10-08-2013, 11:11 PM
If lebron doesnt hit that 3 in game 6 his window is DONE. closed shut. kaput.

But he hit it, so it stays open now.

He needs at least 5 rings though and he probably needs to keep carrying the heat as well

Chronz
10-08-2013, 11:18 PM
Why do you insist on brining up some arbitrary Bird quote as a reference point to justify Lebron's greatness when he clearly has offered a verdict on the debate at hand. If you want to go by what Bird said, why don't you bring up his quote about how if he wanted to have fun he would play with Lebron and if he wanted to win rings he would play with Kobe.
Prolly because this has nothing to do with Kobe and everything to do with MJ. But what makes it arbitrary? And the verdict is logical because Kobe has had a superior career, Im talking about single season dominance (the likes of which Bird questions if there has ever been one greater) and the overall hypothetical end to Brons career.

amos1er
10-08-2013, 11:21 PM
Prolly because this has nothing to do with Kobe and everything to do with MJ. But what makes it arbitrary? And the verdict is logical because Kobe has had a superior career, Im talking about single season dominance (the likes of which Bird questions if there has ever been one greater) and the overall hypothetical end to Brons career.

Well, thats fair. At least you can acknowledge that Kobe has had the superior career up until now. Unlike Hawkeye and a handful of the more radical Lebronites on this site.

Chronz
10-08-2013, 11:22 PM
Don't you mean four more rings. Lol And yes, he needs to prove he can win without the greatest team advantage since the 60's Celtics.

Why would he have to win 6 rings when Kobe has won a chip with him being on a team so superior to the league that it could actually win a finals game with him playing so few minutes. Bron has never been on a championship team that was capable of surviving, much less winning a game against that kind of competition. So why does he need more?

Unsubstantiated buzz words for the win tho

amos1er
10-08-2013, 11:35 PM
Why would he have to win 6 rings when Kobe has won a chip with him being on a team so superior to the league that it could actually win a finals game with him playing so few minutes. Bron has never been on a championship team that was capable of surviving, much less winning a game against that kind of competition. So why does he need more?

Unsubstantiated buzz words for the win tho

Lebron didn't need to go back in the fourth quarter in game four of this years finals. He chose to go back in for garbage time glory against the Spurs third stringers. He could easily have sat during the fourth... The Spurs had basically waived the white flag.

tredigs
10-08-2013, 11:45 PM
Well, thats fair. At least you can acknowledge that Kobe has had the superior career up until now. Unlike Hawkeye and a few other of the most radical Lebronites on this site.

I don't know, I mean you can only win so many MVPs and hold such a massive gap in statistical dominance over another supposed top 10 player - still in his prim on a stacked team - before it becomes common knowledge of who's considered the superior player. I wouldn't hold last season or any future ones against Kobe due to his age, but the cast has pretty much been set there on prime v prime. Now it's more of a formality of Lebron logging a few more prime seasons along with another Finals MVP before it's a non-debate career wise and the public moves on to debating him against the likes of Kareem.

tredigs
10-08-2013, 11:48 PM
Lebron didn't need to go back in the fourth quarter in game four of this years finals. He chose to go back in for garbage time glory against the Spurs third stringers. He could easily have sat during the fourth... The Spurs had basically waived the white flag.

There was some garbage time stats in this years finals by Bron, I would agree with that. The reality of his performance isn't quite as good as the stats suggest, though he was still CLEARLY the best player on the winning team. I wouldn't say the same for Kobe in many of his finals wins. Including one with Pau.

tredigs
10-08-2013, 11:53 PM
^And to be fair there, Lebron also wasn't the best player on his team in a finals loss - that was Wade. Which is his biggest blackmark to date and the real reason why those who already consider him a better peak player then Jordan just don't get it.

amos1er
10-08-2013, 11:55 PM
There was some garbage time stats in this years finals by Bron, I would agree with that. The reality of his performance isn't quite as good as the stats suggest, though he was still CLEARLY the best player on the winning team. I wouldn't say the same for Kobe in many of his finals wins. Including one with Pau.

I was with ya up until there.

amos1er
10-08-2013, 11:55 PM
^And to be fair there, Lebron also wasn't the best player on his team in a finals loss - that was Wade. Which is his biggest blackmark to date and the real reason why those who already consider him a better peak player then Jordan just don't get it.

Don't worry, I won't make that mistake.

Hawkeye15
10-09-2013, 12:06 AM
Lebron didn't need to go back in the fourth quarter in game four of this years finals. He chose to go back in for garbage time glory against the Spurs third stringers. He could easily have sat during the fourth... The Spurs had basically waived the white flag.

why do you continue to duck the point? Kobe Bryant played 9 minutes in a finals game that his team WON. Please, by all means, show me where LeBron would have ever gotten away with that.

amos1er
10-09-2013, 12:06 AM
I don't know, I mean you can only win so many MVPs and hold such a massive gap in statistical dominance over another supposed top 10 player - still in his prim on a stacked team - before it becomes common knowledge of who's considered the superior player. I wouldn't hold last season or any future ones against Kobe due to his age, but the cast has pretty much been set there on prime v prime. Now it's more of a formality of Lebron logging a few more prime seasons along with another Finals MVP before it's a non-debate career wise and the public moves on to debating him against the likes of Kareem.

Peak vs. peak from a statistical standpoint, Lebron is clearly the better player on paper. However, from the standpoint of being the better offensive scorer including 1 on 1, 1 on 2, and 1 on 3 dominance while being able to guard the teams best player, that would be Kobe by a landslide. Also, Kobe is still the far better winner, has a far better killer instinct, and work ethic. Career wise, Kobe's longevity is among the NBA's all time best. That one is going to be hard to match. We also have to factor in his 2011 loss to the Mavs along with the fact that the team he won his rings on were are more talented in comparison to the rest of the league than any team Kobe has ever been on including the one's with Shaq. Kobe also beat far greater opponents in the 2000 Trailblazers, the 2001 Kings and Spurs, the 2002 Spurs and Kings, the 2008 Spurs, and the 2010 Celtics. A great athlete is judged by how he fares against his greatest opponents. So far Lebron hasn't had to deal with anything all that difficult yet especially when factoring how much better his teams were than his opponents. Lets see where Lebron is in another few years before we make this comparison. At least you can admit that he hasn't passed Kobe career wise yet. It shows that you can be rational when having this discussion. Of course the more radical Lebronites on this site such as Hawkeye will disagree with that, but we honestly just have to sit back and laugh at that sort of fanboy attitude.

Hawkeye15
10-09-2013, 12:07 AM
I was with ya up until there.

of course. Look, statistically, Kobe has been the best player on one of his five rings. One.

Hawkeye15
10-09-2013, 12:07 AM
Peak vs. peak from a statistical standpoint, Lebron is clearly the better player on paper. .

by a large margin.

tredigs
10-09-2013, 12:07 AM
I was with ya up until there.

I'd say Gasol was better in the 2010 finals (I remember making the argument at the time), and at the very least it is a real debate. That's not a knock on Kobe - he was Kobe which is insanely good - but Pau's rebounding and defense were top notch that series (Kobe's rebounding was solid, but his defense consisted of him playing free safety 8 feet off Rondo iirc), and he killed it in the 4th quarters while Kobe was a mess most nights. Even his playmaking out of the post was better than Kobe. Pretty sure he had the same assist total but half the passing turnovers. It was a series won in the blocks imo, too. I just think he was more crucial to their wins, and was clearly the best player on the court for either team in 2-3 games. And to get to the crux of this argument, he was just MUCH, MUCH better than the totality of what we saw from Wade and Bosh in the playoffs (on paper, sure, they're incredible. But then there's the reality of what they offered this post-season).

Hawkeye15
10-09-2013, 12:11 AM
I find it utterly hilarious that kobephiles are now trying to sell that he didn't have chip help almost his entire career.

When you get defensive, you reach pretty hard apparently.

amos1er
10-09-2013, 12:13 AM
why do you continue to duck the point? Kobe Bryant played 9 minutes in a finals game that his team WON. Please, by all means, show me where LeBron would have ever gotten away with that.

Gotten away with that!!!! LMAO!!! Kobe is at least sane enough to know that it's only risking injury to play in a game that has already been decided. Lebron on the other hand is willing to risk injury to pad his stats in a game where he was 100% NOT NEEDED in the fourth quarter. Besides, some of Kobe's toughest opponents have been in the WCF, not the finals... It's not his fault that the east is a joke. Fortunately for James, he has the weakness of the east to bank on in regards to cementing his legacy. The truly knowledgable basketball minds however will see through that facade no matter how much the media and other financial interests burry it and focus on the arbitrary facts. Come talk to me when Lebron faces an opponent at least close to the Heat's level en-route to another championship.

amos1er
10-09-2013, 12:17 AM
I'd say Gasol was better in the 2010 finals (I remember making the argument at the time), and at the very least it is a real debate. That's not a knock on Kobe - he was Kobe which is insanely good - but Pau's rebounding and defense were top notch that series (Kobe's rebounding was solid, but his defense consisted of him playing free safety 8 feet off Rondo iirc), and he killed it in the 4th quarters while Kobe was a mess most nights. Even his playmaking out of the post was better than Kobe. Pretty sure he had the same assist total but half the passing turnovers. It was a series won in the blocks imo, too. I just think he was more crucial to their wins, and was clearly the best player on the court for either team in 2-3 games. And to get to the crux of this argument, he was just MUCH, MUCH better than the totality of what we saw from Wade and Bosh in the playoffs (on paper, sure, they're incredible. But then there's the reality of what they offered this post-season).

I would agree that Gasol was phenomenal in the 2010 finals. He could have easily deserved a co-MVP for sure, but it was Kobe's team and he was phenomenal as well despite his shooting in game 7. Kobe had just done too much up until that point during entire playoff run to give it to Gasol and not him. Also, you have to remember that Kobe was playing very injured with sprained fingers and his knee was already drained twice. Co-MVP would have been fair IMO.

amos1er
10-09-2013, 12:20 AM
I find it utterly hilarious that kobephiles are now trying to sell that he didn't have chip help almost his entire career.

When you get defensive, you reach pretty hard apparently.

Lol. Now isn't this the pot calling the kettle black. Talk about reaching. Your are one of the few Lebronites on this site who has the audacity to claim that Lebron has already passed Kobe career wise. Even your hommies Chronz and Tredigs don't have your back on that one. Every single poster you would refer to as "rational" would not want to come stand with you on that lonely island.

amos1er
10-09-2013, 12:21 AM
by a large margin.

Yes, and that would be all fine and dandy if this were fantasy basketball.

amos1er
10-09-2013, 12:26 AM
of course. Look, statistically, Kobe has been the best player on one of his five rings. One.

So you want to base the entire 2010 playoff run on a single series eh. Not that I am saying Gasol was the better player in the finals by any means, they were pretty even IMO and factor in that Kobe was playing through injuries that would have sidelined Lebron for sure. How about the 2001 WCF when the Lakers faced by far their toughest opponent. How would your logic hold up there? Kobe was clearly the best player through the Lakers toughest series... Shouldn't that count for something in your eyes?

Hawkeye15
10-09-2013, 12:36 AM
Gotten away with that!!!! LMAO!!! Kobe is at least sane enough to know that it's only risking injury to play in a game that has already been decided. Lebron on the other hand is willing to risk injury to pad his stats in a game where he was 100% NOT NEEDED in the fourth quarter. Besides, some of Kobe's toughest opponents have been in the WCF, not the finals... It's not his fault that the east is a joke. Fortunately for James, he has the weakness of the east to bank on in regards to cementing his legacy. The truly knowledgable basketball minds however will see through that facade no matter how much the media and other financial interests burry it and focus on the arbitrary facts. Come talk to me when Lebron faces an opponent at least close to the Heat's level en-route to another championship.

past all your drivel, show me one game that mattered in the playoffs where Bron didn't have to play nova to win.

The truly knowledgeable basketball minds you speak of don't side with you. The mere fact you act like the Heat are a super team is beyond laughable. Kobe played with 2 chip teams that could totally withstand him not even being a factor at times. Magic and Bird, as well as Russell, played with multiple HOF'ers. Nobody is saying the Heat aren't a very good roster, but to act like they are the most stacked team in history is honestly a slap in the face of NBA history, and shows straight through to your agenda.

You literally have no statistical way of showing your claims. None.

Hawkeye15
10-09-2013, 12:37 AM
So you want to base the entire 2010 playoff run on a single series eh.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2010.html

nah, the entire playoffs......

Hawkeye15
10-09-2013, 12:38 AM
Lol. Now isn't this the pot calling the kettle black. Talk about reaching. Your are one of the few Lebronites on this site who has the audacity to claim that Lebron has already passed Kobe career wise. Even your hommies Chronz and Tredigs don't have your back on that one. Every single poster you would refer to as "rational" would not want to come stand with you on that lonely island.

I tend to believe at the end of the day I have more on my side than your +1 buddy.

WARRIORS@GR
10-09-2013, 12:40 AM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2010.html

nah, the entire playoffs......

Adam Morrisson 22/14/8 per36:hide:

Hawkeye15
10-09-2013, 12:56 AM
Adam Morrisson 22/14/8 per36:hide:

more interested in actual production over those playoffs. Guess what? Pau provided more...

amos1er
10-09-2013, 12:57 AM
I tend to believe at the end of the day I have more on my side than your +1 buddy.

Key words... At the end of the day. Currently, only you and a select cast of special case Leboners feels that Lebron has passed Kobe career wise. Likewise, keep on praying that "at the end of the day" Lebron is in the same conversation as Jordan. On the .0000001% chance that it does actually happen, guess you will have the last laugh. Until then, I will be the one laughing. I will agree that Lebron has a chance to surpass Kobe, if a lot of things fall into place and he proves to have some longevity after all. But to say that it has already happened is truly laughable.

amos1er
10-09-2013, 12:59 AM
more interested in actual production over those playoffs. Guess what? Pau provided more...

Never mind that Kobe's mere presence provided a decoy that allowed Pau to have those numbers in the first place. Factor out that meaningless first round OKC series when Kobe was clearly injured and not himself and it's a whole other story. Lets see if Lebron could even get himself on the court if he had the same injuries Kobe had.

Hawkeye15
10-09-2013, 01:02 AM
Key words... At the end of the day. Currently, only you and a select cast of special case Leboners feels that Lebron has passed Kobe career wise. Likewise, keep on praying that "at the end of the day" Lebron is in the same conversation as Jordan. On the .0000001% chance that it does actually happen, guess you will have the last laugh. Until then, I will be the one laughing. I will agree that Lebron has a chance to surpass Kobe, if a lot of things fall into place and he proves to have some longevity after all. But to say that it has already happened is truly laughable.

well, to be honest, we both know I don't entertain your opinion, or your apprentice's either.

I mean, you struggle to even understand archaic stats. He doesn't even get those.

Why, on earth, should I care about your opinion of me? I never see you in any thread that doesn't involve protecting your crush. You understand basketball? Meh, I have never seen it.

Keep on keeping on man.

amos1er
10-09-2013, 01:02 AM
Oh and never mind the fact that Kobe averaged like 10 more ppg and led the team in assists. Come on man, Kobe was clearly the best player on that team, though Pau did deserve a co-finals MVP IMO.

Hawkeye15
10-09-2013, 01:03 AM
Never mind that Kobe's mere presence provided a decoy that allowed Pau to have those numbers in the first place. Factor out that meaningless first round OKC series when Kobe was clearly injured and not himself and it's a whole other story. Lets see if Lebron could even get himself on the court if he had the same injuries Kobe had.

But wait, when anyone mentions Kobe's 01-02' numbers were because Shaq took so much attention, they are called a Kobe hater.

LeBron has been impervious to injury, outside the elbow injury that limited him. Some dudes are straight up freaks.

be consistent, or get out of the way

Hawkeye15
10-09-2013, 01:05 AM
Oh and never mind the fact that Kobe averaged like 10 more ppg and led the team in assists. Come on man, Kobe was clearly the best player on that team, though Pau did deserve a co-finals MVP IMO.

per game numbers? Cmon now, I thought you were better.

amos1er
10-09-2013, 01:06 AM
well, to be honest, we both know I don't entertain your opinion, or your apprentice's either.

I mean, you struggle to even understand archaic stats. He doesn't even get those.

Why, on earth, should I care about your opinion of me? I never see you in any thread that doesn't involve protecting your crush. You understand basketball? Meh, I have never seen it.

Keep on keeping on man.

Why do you always bring up advanced stats like it is some groundbreaking revelation or something? Is that really all you have? You might as well copy and paste basketball reference links as your rebuttals.

I am in plenty of other threads BTW. This just happens to be my bread and butter.

amos1er
10-09-2013, 01:10 AM
But wait, when anyone mentions Kobe's 01-02' numbers were because Shaq took so much attention, they are called a Kobe hater.

LeBron has been impervious to injury, outside the elbow injury that limited him. Some dudes are straight up freaks.

be consistent, or get out of the way

You can't really be comparing those to the 2010 playoffs when Kobe was playing injured and it was a miracle he even was able to get on the floor. Give the guy some credit. I already said that Pau definitely deserved a co-finals MVP. What more can I say? Kobe was brilliant in the WCS and the WCF. Other than his dreadful shooting in game 7 of the finals, he was money there too, and he did pull down 15 rebounds in a series where the team that won the battle of the boards, won the game.

amos1er
10-09-2013, 01:12 AM
per game numbers? Cmon now, I thought you were better.

You can't just base your entire argument on advanced stats. PPG is very important too. It shows that Kobe took most of the scoring load on a championship run. You can't really think that Pau could have taken over the scoring responsibility and the Laker still win right?

amos1er
10-09-2013, 01:14 AM
past all your drivel, show me one game that mattered in the playoffs where Bron didn't have to play nova to win.

The truly knowledgeable basketball minds you speak of don't side with you. The mere fact you act like the Heat are a super team is beyond laughable. Kobe played with 2 chip teams that could totally withstand him not even being a factor at times. Magic and Bird, as well as Russell, played with multiple HOF'ers. Nobody is saying the Heat aren't a very good roster, but to act like they are the most stacked team in history is honestly a slap in the face of NBA history, and shows straight through to your agenda.

You literally have no statistical way of showing your claims. None.

In a seven game finals series, every game matters. If Wade didn't win game 4 for the Heat, they lose the series.

tredigs
10-09-2013, 01:32 AM
In a seven game finals series, every game matters. If Wade didn't win game 4 for the Heat, they lose the series.

And if the Lakers didn't win game 7 for Kobe (6-24... 0-4 with just 2 fourth quarter points on FT's... yes, he rebounded well) along with having to deal with his 4th quarter woes in virtually every game of the series, they also lose. Nobody wins it alone.

I'd say game 2 was more on Lebron than game 4. LBJ only had 8 points before he started stat padding in the 4th quarter when they were up double digits and the Spurs starters were out of the game. In game 4, he was awesome (some slight stat padding again later on, but still awesome), Wade just happened to have a career game. Without either, they lose it. I mean honestly Wade was probably the MVP for them until game 5, but 6 and 7 were Lebron in full form. Along with his true dominance in the rest of the playoffs, he earned that ring + MVP.

FlashBolt
10-09-2013, 02:09 AM
past all your drivel, show me one game that mattered in the playoffs where Bron didn't have to play nova to win.

The truly knowledgeable basketball minds you speak of don't side with you. The mere fact you act like the Heat are a super team is beyond laughable. Kobe played with 2 chip teams that could totally withstand him not even being a factor at times. Magic and Bird, as well as Russell, played with multiple HOF'ers. Nobody is saying the Heat aren't a very good roster, but to act like they are the most stacked team in history is honestly a slap in the face of NBA history, and shows straight through to your agenda.

You literally have no statistical way of showing your claims. None.

In a seven game finals series, every game matters. If Wade didn't win game 4 for the Heat, they lose the series.

There wouldn't be much of a playoff series for Kobe to play in without Shaq or Gasol, either. That argument works both ways, when are you ever going to understand that? Are we going to forget that Kobe went nowhere when he was left with a roster completely filled with bench players?

Hawkeye15
10-09-2013, 12:47 PM
You can't just base your entire argument on advanced stats. PPG is very important too. It shows that Kobe took most of the scoring load on a championship run. You can't really think that Pau could have taken over the scoring responsibility and the Laker still win right?

How you score is much more important than a per game number.

koreancabbage
10-09-2013, 04:07 PM
Never mind that Kobe's mere presence provided a decoy that allowed Pau to have those numbers in the first place. Factor out that meaningless first round OKC series when Kobe was clearly injured and not himself and it's a whole other story. Lets see if Lebron could even get himself on the court if he had the same injuries Kobe had.

BUAHAHAHA.

Triangle offense. dominant big man. great coach.

thats how Kobe gets his championship wins. being a system player.

amos1er
10-09-2013, 04:20 PM
BUAHAHAHA.

Triangle offense. dominant big man. great coach.

thats how Kobe gets his championship wins. being a system player.

Ya, a system player that is perhaps the best in NBA history at creating his own shot. Epic fail. :facepalm:

amos1er
10-09-2013, 04:22 PM
^^

Oh and if you really don't think that Lebron took the easy way out by teaming up with a top five guy, a top fifteen guy, and 5 guys who can shoot above 40% from 3, then you've been smoking more of Lebron's poll than I thought.

amos1er
10-09-2013, 04:41 PM
How you score is much more important than a per game number.

I agree. Especially when you have a player on your team who is among the best to ever lace them up at creating a shot out of nothing... Especially when the teams offensive scheme has failed and there is only 5 seconds left on the shot clock. A player might have less individual efficiency as a result, but the teams efficiency and chance of winning will go up.

Who would you rather have on your team?

Player A - Who can consistently provide your team with scoring even when the opposing teams defense is consistently breaking up your teams offensive sequences.

Or

Player B - Who is reliant on the teams offensive schemes and the three point snipers around him in order to provide scoring. Of course this way when they play an elite defensive team like San Antonio, they will struggle tremendously as they will have to find more creative ways to score.

Hence why Lebron struggled with San Antonio and barely got past them by the skin of his teeth, while Kobe decimated a younger better version of the same team in only 5 games. It's also why Kobe is able to perform better against the truly great competition of his generation, while Lebron struggled and needed to team up with two superstars and 5 three point snippers in the weak east and win against lesser competition to achieve the same result. Lebron will always have great stats when he is reliant on playing within a specialized system against the weaker competition of the NBA, but when he is forced to think outside the box against the top tier competition, he will struggle mightily.

koreancabbage
10-09-2013, 04:45 PM
Ya, a system player that is perhaps the best in NBA history at creating his own shot. Epic fail. :facepalm:

at an ineffective rate. :facepalm:

inefficiency at its best.

Jordan is way better than Kobe at creating his shot.

koreancabbage
10-09-2013, 04:46 PM
I have a question for you: what are Kobe's faults?

amos1er
10-09-2013, 05:34 PM
at an ineffective rate. :facepalm:

inefficiency at its best.

Jordan is way better than Kobe at creating his shot.

Thats why I said perhaps. It's between him and Jordan. Kobe has more moves, but Jordan was better and more consistent at getting to the hole.

amos1er
10-09-2013, 05:52 PM
I have a question for you: what are Kobe's faults?

Honestly, his biggest fault is and always has been a bad reputation with the media. If he had the same love Lebron has, he would have at least 3 MVP's, and perhaps two more titles. He would not have gotten completely hosed by the refs in the 2004 finals and in game 2 of the 2008 finals. If he got the same love as Lebron always gets from the refs in both of those finals, he would have gotten the job done for sure. In 2004 he only averaged 5 FT attempts in the finals while leading in shot attempts... Only time thats happened to him in his career. Lebron only averaged 3.3 free throw attempts in 2011, but he didn't shoot all that much at only 90 attempts in a 6 game series. Even Bosh had more field goal attempts than him. Kobe had 113 attempts in only 5 games. If you measure Kobe's free throw attempts per field goal attempts, it's just sad how obviously the refs robbed him that year. Of course no one seemed to notice as everyone hated him because of some false rape allegations. Detroit had 171 FTA for the series and the Lakers had only 111 FTA. Those numbers are a joke as the Lakers had lead the league in FTA throughout the playoffs and regular season, while the Pistons were bottom of the league in both the regular season and the playoffs. Those numbers however took a complete turn in the finals when the Pistons got 60 more attempts than the Lakers who had both prime Shaq and Kobe and not to mention that the disparity itself was an NBA finals record. Even larger than the one the Heat had over the Mavs in 2006.

Hawkeye15
10-09-2013, 05:57 PM
wow

amos1er
10-09-2013, 06:06 PM
wow

Don't act as if I'm the first one to insinuate that the NBA is rigged. I would wager that if we started a poll, most of the votes would be in favor of it being rigged.

Chronz
10-09-2013, 06:08 PM
Lebron didn't need to go back in the fourth quarter
Even if thats true, he still played FAR more than Frobe, who couldn't even play a full quarters length.



in game four of this years finals. He chose to go back in for garbage time glory against the Spurs third stringers. He could easily have sat during the fourth... The Spurs had basically waived the white flag.
Not buying it, when Bron came in, Duncan was still out there, as was Tony Parker. When TP went out, Manu came in. It wasn't until the last Duncan turnover that Pop took him out. All 3 of the "Big 3" remained on the floor.

How exactly does pointing out a victory that Bron played a much larger role in when compared to Frobe's 9Minute appearance help you?

Should we point to the time Kobe stayed on the court to get his 40-8-8 that Ive seen many of you reference? PLZ, there is nothing wrong with playing hard to the last minute. Plenty of greats have done so. Kobe for instance led the league in "garbage" time scoring during his 35PPG campaign. Do I see any kobephiles apologizing for it? LMFAO F NO

koreancabbage
10-09-2013, 06:09 PM
wow

buahahaha. i know right? not a single fault.

folks, he believes Kobe is perfect. blaming the media. its not Kobe's fault, its the media.

I bet he could come up with more faults for Jordan than Kobe.

Chronz
10-09-2013, 06:24 PM
buahahaha. i know right? not a single fault.

folks, he believes Kobe is perfect. blaming the media. its not Kobe's fault, its the media.

I bet he could come up with more faults for Jordan than Kobe.
Kobes biggest weakness, choosing Adidas and generously offering himself to a white woman.

koreancabbage
10-09-2013, 06:31 PM
Kobes biggest weakness, choosing Adidas and generously offering himself to a white woman.

HAHAHAHAHA. case rested. =P

amos1er
10-09-2013, 06:41 PM
Kobes biggest weakness, choosing Adidas and generously offering himself to a white woman.

:laugh:

tredigs
10-09-2013, 06:54 PM
Honestly, his biggest fault is and always has been a bad reputation with the media. If he had the same love Lebron has, he would have at least 3 MVP's, and perhaps two more titles. He would not have gotten completely hosed by the refs in the 2004 finals and in game 2 of the 2008 finals. If he got the same love as Lebron always gets from the refs in both of those finals, he would have gotten the job done for sure. In 2004 he only averaged 5 FT attempts in the finals while leading in shot attempts... Only time thats happened to him in his career. Lebron only averaged 3.3 free throw attempts in 2011, but he didn't shoot all that much at only 90 attempts in a 6 game series. Even Bosh had more field goal attempts than him. Kobe had 113 attempts in only 5 games. If you measure Kobe's free throw attempts per field goal attempts, it's just sad how obviously the refs robbed him that year. Of course no one seemed to notice as everyone hated him because of some false rape allegations. Detroit had 171 FTA for the series and the Lakers had only 111 FTA. Those numbers are a joke as the Lakers had lead the league in FTA throughout the playoffs and regular season, while the Pistons were bottom of the league in both the regular season and the playoffs. Those numbers however took a complete turn in the finals when the Pistons got 60 more attempts than the Lakers who had both prime Shaq and Kobe and not to mention that the disparity itself was an NBA finals record. Even larger than the one the Heat had over the Mavs in 2006.

Can't imagine why fans of all assorted fan bases think you're completely delusional.

Hawkeye15
10-09-2013, 07:30 PM
Don't act as if I'm the first one to insinuate that the NBA is rigged. I would wager that if we started a poll, most of the votes would be in favor of it being rigged.

no, you are acting like Kobe's game is perfect, and society judged him wrong.

wow

amos1er
10-09-2013, 08:13 PM
no, you are acting like Kobe's game is perfect, and society judged him wrong.

wow

Never said his game was perfect. Thats just you putting words in my mouth. Just saying that the free throw disparity in the 2004 finals was fishy and I gave my reasoning earlier. Also saying that he does not get nearly the same love from the media that Lebron gets. For the record, Kobe is not perfect and I have stated that many times. I believe he can be ranked anywhere from 6-10 on the all-time list to anyone that is somewhat rational. He is a far better individual talent than a team oriented player and that has cost him for sure. At least I'm willing to admit his flaws and I find this humorous coming from someone who once said that Lebron's only flaw to date was poor free throw shooting. Lol

amos1er
10-09-2013, 08:14 PM
Can't imagine why fans of all assorted fan bases think you're completely delusional.

Not really. The only accusations I get are from the Lebronites of all assorted fan bases.

Hawkeye15
10-09-2013, 08:18 PM
Never said his game was perfect. Thats just you putting words in my mouth. Just saying that the free throw disparity in the 2004 finals was fishy and I gave my reasoning earlier. Also saying that he does not get nearly the same love from the media that Lebron gets. For the record, Kobe is not perfect and I have stated that many times. I believe he can be ranked anywhere from 6-10 on the all-time list to anyone that is somewhat rational. He is a far better individual talent than a team oriented player and that has cost him for sure. At least I'm willing to admit his flaws and I find this humorous coming from someone who once said that Lebron's only flaw to date was poor free throw shooting. Lol

I don't need to put words in your mouth. At all. If I asked you to list Kobe and LeBron's faults, your list would be a walmart shopping list on LeBron, and you didn't even mention a single Kobe fault.

Look, you have been called out here for what you are. And I know you don't care that nobody respects your opinions, outside your high five buddy delusionist. But you are starting to make posts that are scary biased, without even knowing it.

Kobe for president dude.

Hawkeye15
10-09-2013, 08:19 PM
Not really. The only accusations I get are from the Lebronites of all assorted fan bases.

whats funny is, you would gauge 90% of this, or any site, or any media outlet, lebronites.

Might want to re-think whether or not you are in haterland

amos1er
10-09-2013, 08:24 PM
whats funny is, you would gauge 90% of this, or any site, or any media outlet, lebronites.

Might want to re-think whether or not you are in haterland

This from the guy who helped coin the term "Kobephile". :rolleyes:

amos1er
10-09-2013, 08:26 PM
I don't need to put words in your mouth. At all. If I asked you to list Kobe and LeBron's faults, your list would be a walmart shopping list on LeBron, and you didn't even mention a single Kobe fault.

Look, you have been called out here for what you are. And I know you don't care that nobody respects your opinions, outside your high five buddy delusionist. But you are starting to make posts that are scary biased, without even knowing it.

Kobe for president dude.

So now we are playing the assumption game eh.

Hawkeye15
10-09-2013, 08:34 PM
So now we are playing the assumption game eh.

I like to call it the evidence game.

You were asked to list Kobe's faults

You blamed the media for him not winning more MVPs or chips

You also blast LeBron on this site

Facts bud

amos1er
10-09-2013, 08:46 PM
I like to call it the evidence game.

You were asked to list Kobe's faults

You blamed the media for him not winning more MVPs or chips

You also blast LeBron on this site

Facts bud

Your just focusing on the negative. I also said that he can shoot his team out of games from time to time and that he is better suited as an individual talent than a team oriented system player and that can also lead to loses from time to time. When Kobe is locked in individually while at the same picking his spots to blend with how his team is trying to accomplish in the flow of the game he is at his best.

Bruno
10-09-2013, 09:00 PM
How you score is much more important than a per game number.

why do i never heard you criticize duncan or hakeem for being inefficient scorers? Kobe Bryant has a high career TS% than both of them.

Hawkeye15
10-09-2013, 09:02 PM
why do i never heard you criticize duncan or hakeem for being inefficient scorers? Kobe Bryant has a high career TS% than both of them.

When have we had those discussions? This site is primarily a Kobe/LeBron site due to youth. If you want to talk about those players, lets go. But lets also bring up both of them being defensive anchors and contributing much more than in the scoring column...

Tony_Starks
10-09-2013, 10:48 PM
To me the notion that MJ is this untouchable sacred GOAT is the biggest crock in sports. I can make a argument for Kareem, I can make a argument for Magic. And I actually watched him play, not just YouTube highlights or NBA tv throwback games....

koreancabbage
10-09-2013, 11:07 PM
Your just focusing on the negative. I also said that he can shoot his team out of games from time to time and that he is better suited as an individual talent than a team oriented system player and that can also lead to loses from time to time. When Kobe is locked in individually while at the same picking his spots to blend with how his team is trying to accomplish in the flow of the game he is at his best.

he might seem to be better suited as individual talent but proof is in the pudding - great shot creater/ can lose his man on the dribble but he lacks efficiency in the long run. That is why he needs the triangle offense as much as possible to get him open shots b/c the big man pivoting dictates how the play is going to roll out for the most part.

Kobe is a system player as much as it hurts to hear the sound of that - i don't think there's anything wrong with that. I mean has he won without the triangle offense?

but the ******** you're spewing out that Lebron is a system player is beyond me. all plays run through Lebron. Lebron initiates the offense for the most part. Lebron is the system and the individual player that a team needs. Even if you think he stat-pads, who cares. he was , for the most part, the reason that let him pad his own stats b/c of his play. he adds a few rebounds and assists to his total but its not its the easiest thing in the world. why do you think its so hard to put up great all round stats like he does? not everyone can do it. as dominant as he is on the court, the game comes naturally to him. for the most part, he won't force things to get a stat ala Javale McGee.

JordansBulls
10-09-2013, 11:58 PM
Well I agree with your statement, it is about the player with the best case for GOAT and that is MJ. Undefeated in Series with HCA, and turned a franchise that won nothing into a dynasty.

amos1er
10-10-2013, 12:01 AM
he might seem to be better suited as individual talent but proof is in the pudding - great shot creater/ can lose his man on the dribble but he lacks efficiency in the long run. That is why he needs the triangle offense as much as possible to get him open shots b/c the big man pivoting dictates how the play is going to roll out for the most part.

Kobe is a system player as much as it hurts to hear the sound of that - i don't think there's anything wrong with that. I mean has he won without the triangle offense?

but the ******** you're spewing out that Lebron is a system player is beyond me. all plays run through Lebron. Lebron initiates the offense for the most part. Lebron is the system and the individual player that a team needs. Even if you think he stat-pads, who cares. he was , for the most part, the reason that let him pad his own stats b/c of his play. he adds a few rebounds and assists to his total but its not its the easiest thing in the world. why do you think its so hard to put up great all round stats like he does? not everyone can do it. as dominant as he is on the court, the game comes naturally to him. for the most part, he won't force things to get a stat ala Javale McGee.

Phil actually once said that Kobe rarely runs the triangle. Lol