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View Full Version : How many rings would LeBron have if he played on the lakers in place of Kobe?



copper!
09-30-2013, 10:43 PM
the shaq-russell-celtics thread sparked this thread idea. well start both at the age of 20, because kobe was a bench player before then. This spans from 98-99 to 06-07. Kobe won 3 rings during this span. How many does lebron win if you put him in place of kobe? both players are going from age 20 to age 28

Jamiecballer
09-30-2013, 10:51 PM
going entirely on my memory that the lakers were more talented than the teams Lebron had in Cleveland i'll say more than 3 for sure.

LAcowBOMBER
09-30-2013, 10:57 PM
I think it's too hard to predict how Lebron would have developed in the triangle and with Shaq. Would Lebron be able to play his game with Shaq?

5ass
09-30-2013, 11:02 PM
Most of them. About 5 at age 28.

5ass
09-30-2013, 11:05 PM
I think it's too hard to predict how Lebron would have developed in the triangle and with Shaq. Would Lebron be able to play his game with Shaq?

Why not? If the triangle doesnt work im sure phil would have found a way. Atleast their egos wont get in the way and they could spend most of their careers together. That probably would mean 8-10 rings.

setman2000
09-30-2013, 11:13 PM
How many times has this stupid, meaningless question been asked on PSD?

LAcowBOMBER
09-30-2013, 11:17 PM
Why not? If the triangle doesnt work im sure phil would have found a way. Atleast their egos wont get in the way and they could spend most of their careers together. That probably would mean 8-10 rings.

Lebron never hasn't been the man. I don't know why he always gets a free pass and everyone just assumes his ego wouldn't clash with anyone. The Lakers offense ran through Shaq. I'm not saying Lebron couldn't win more or less than Kobe, I'm just saying it's impossible to predict how things would have played out. Way too many variables

Shlumpledink
09-30-2013, 11:20 PM
Shaq needed a really good closer to work with him effectively. Young Lebron needed a lot more room than he would get playing with Shaq. It's fun to think about, but I don't believe he gets more than 3, he might not even get three. Unless you're cherry picking this current Lebron to play with Shaq, Kobe was not in his prime while playing with Shaq and Lebron is in his prime now.

For the record if we are cherrypicking this lebron to play with shaq, they win championships every year.

Tony_Starks
09-30-2013, 11:25 PM
Lets see Kobe had 18 seasons? Lebron would have 18 rings. He would've won a ring every single year because Kobe was just gifted all his rings and Lebron is one of the greatest of all time.

Dade County
09-30-2013, 11:31 PM
10 rings

b@llhog24
09-30-2013, 11:51 PM
Anywhere from 4-8.

Supreme LA
09-30-2013, 11:53 PM
10 rings

Probably zero since Lebron needs the floor spread with shooters for his game to be really effective in the half court situations. Having Shaq clog up the middle would take away a lot of opportunities for his power drives to the rim and also negate his fast breaking seeing as how the game would be played in a half court set most often to take advantage of Shaq's strengths.

amos1er
10-01-2013, 12:19 AM
Probably zero since Lebron needs the floor spread with shooters for his game to be really effective in the half court situations. Having Shaq clog up the middle would take away a lot of opportunities for his power drives to the rim and also negate his fast breaking seeing as how the game would be played in a half court set most often to take advantage of Shaq's strengths.

Exactly! Best analysis yet!

amos1er
10-01-2013, 12:21 AM
the shaq-russell-celtics thread sparked this thread idea. well start both at the age of 20, because kobe was a bench player before then. This spans from 98-99 to 06-07. Kobe won 3 rings during this span. How many does lebron win if you put him in place of kobe? both players are going from age 20 to age 28

Dumb thread.

LakersOrNothing
10-01-2013, 12:35 AM
It's a shamed Lebron has PLAYED in a way tougher league than MJ or any other superstars combined, cause seriously Lebron would of made the 80's and 90's look like rookies from the d-league. And seriously? Imagine if he played along side Shaq, he would of already been the GOAT at age maybe 23. Anyone who says otherwise is a dummy or probably a homer and doesn't respect greatness. No joke. The guy is BEAST.

DO IT MITCH

jerellh528
10-01-2013, 12:42 AM
zero

Aust
10-01-2013, 12:51 AM
10 rings

Yep

5ass
10-01-2013, 01:19 AM
Probably zero since Lebron needs the floor spread with shooters for his game to be really effective in the half court situations. Having Shaq clog up the middle would take away a lot of opportunities for his power drives to the rim and also negate his fast breaking seeing as how the game would be played in a half court set most often to take advantage of Shaq's strengths.

Why does playing with ben wallace, joel anthony not seriously affect his game and playing with shaq would? Lebron is one of the best when alone in transition i doubt any system would slow him down, and if anything u change the system to accomodate lebron. Thats what a coach does.

shep33
10-01-2013, 01:19 AM
Would've been interesting to see LBJ play in a non P&R offense where he has total control. His numbers would probably decline drastically (all around), considering Shaq, Horry, etc. were solid rebounders.

Impossible question to answer. Could be more, could be less. Also, people seem to forget that Kobe was never in his prime with Shaq.

Kobe was what? 25 when Shaq left LA?

Supreme LA
10-01-2013, 01:22 AM
Why does playing with ben wallace, joel anthony not seriously affect his game and playing with shaq would? Lebron is one of the best when alone in transition i doubt any system would slow him down, and if anything u change the system to accomodate lebron. Thats what a coach does.

Because neither Ben Wallace nor Joel Anthony are inside scoring threats. Obviously, Shaq was and therefore he would demand and NEED the ball to be effective.

That was an easy question. Give me something tougher.

And why do you automatically assume the coach would cater to Lebron? I actually see a coach like PJ building his offense around Shaq still.

And isn't that the basis of my argument? That Shaq and Lebron don't mesh as well as ignorant fans think? You can't just throw two superstars and think it's going to work. They both have contrasting styles for how each could dominate and be most effective. That is why I have always said that it wouldn't be as great as everyone thinks.

5ass
10-01-2013, 01:24 AM
Lebron never hasn't been the man. I don't know why he always gets a free pass and everyone just assumes his ego wouldn't clash with anyone. The Lakers offense ran through Shaq. I'm not saying Lebron couldn't win more or less than Kobe, I'm just saying it's impossible to predict how things would have played out. Way too many variables

Because he never complains about touches? Because he doesnt take ill advised shots? Because he decided to join two other high usage superstars? Because he's always willing to share the ball even when the game is on the line? Theres no reason to suggest they wouldve clashed.

ATX
10-01-2013, 01:25 AM
Well for one, James probably wouldn't have driven off Shaq, as he is considerably less selfish as a player than Kobe and able to coexist better with his peers. Becoming teammates who are on the same page and sticking together would up their chances of winning more titles. Secondly, it would be a pairing of the two most dominant players of a generation, so I don't see who would have been stopping them. Hard to answer the hypothetical, but at least three and probably more if I had to guess.

5ass
10-01-2013, 01:25 AM
Because neither Ben Wallace nor Joel Anthony are inside scoring threats. Obviously, Shaq was and therefore he would demand and NEED the ball to be effective.

That was an easy question. Give me something tougher.

His claim was that lebron is not as effective without floor spacers. Read what im replying to next time.

Btw bron doesnt shoot as much as kobe.

Supreme LA
10-01-2013, 01:28 AM
His claim was that lebron is not as effective without floor spacers. Read what im replying to next time.

It was my original comment and I know what I was referring to so maybe you should get a clue.

And my claim was that Lebron not only needs floor spacers but also someone who doesn't clog up the lane and demand the offense be ran in an half court set.

I'm done with you now so you can go away.

Supreme LA
10-01-2013, 01:31 AM
His claim was that lebron is not as effective without floor spacers. Read what im replying to next time.

Btw bron doesnt shoot as much as kobe.

What does Lebron not shooting as much as Kobe have to do with anything???

Have you watched Kobe and Shaq's team play?

If you did, you would know that Shaq needed kobe to be a perimeter threat in most cases in order to keep the defenses honest. Otherwise they often loaded up the paint against him. That is just another reason Kobe was a much better pairing for Shaq.

5ass
10-01-2013, 01:39 AM
It was my original comment and I know what I was referring to so maybe you should get a clue.

And my claim was that Lebron not only needs floor spacers but also someone who doesn't clog up the lane and demand the offense be ran in an half court set.

I'm done with you now so you can go away.

And my reply is why would shaq clog the lane more than Anthony and Wallace making Bron so much less effective? Shaq isnt going to camp under the basket. On offense when Bron has the ball why would Shaq affect his game more than Anthony and Wallace?

if you need me to explain more let me know, and no im not going anywhere, but you can feel free to leave anytime.

5ass
10-01-2013, 01:42 AM
What does Lebron not shooting as much as Kobe have to do with anything???

Have you watched Kobe and Shaq's team play?

If you did, you would know that Shaq needed kobe to be a perimeter threat in most cases in order to keep the defenses honest. Otherwise they often loaded up the paint against him. That is just another reason Kobe was a much better pairing for Shaq.

and I can claim that bron is better than kobe at getting to the basket and getting bigs into foul trouble, which with Shaq getting hacked all the time would put all the opponent's bigs in foul trouble. Making the game easier for both bron and shaq.

Supreme LA
10-01-2013, 01:44 AM
And my reply is why would shaq clog the lane more than Anthony and Wallace making Bron so much less effective? Shaq isnt going to camp under the basket. On offense when Bron has the ball why would Shaq affect his game more than Anthony and Wallace?

if you need me to explain more let me know, and no im not going anywhere, but you can feel free to leave anytime.

LMAO!!!!

Shaq isn't going to camp under the basket??? Are you serious?????

I'm guessing you have never even watched Shaq play because, had the refs called it, Shaq would be the all-time leader in 3 second violations.

The fact that you are stating Shaq makes little to no difference in effect to Lebron in a half court set on offense clearly shows you know nothing about the game of basketball or these players as well.

And I don't have time to debate this with you because it seems pointless. I'm done so yeah, I'll leave now.

Supreme LA
10-01-2013, 01:46 AM
and I can claim that bron is better than kobe at getting to the basket and getting bigs into foul trouble, which with Shaq getting hacked all the time would put all the opponent's bigs in foul trouble. Making the game easier for both bron and shaq.

Dude, how old are you?? You can't seriously know so little about the game of basketball can you?

I hate to break it to you over and over again but it isn't going to work out as nicely as you think by throwing two big names together.

Simply put, Shaq dominated in the paint and Lebron does most of his damage in the paint. There isn't enough room for the both of them. They play different styles, one half court, the other fastbreK. They would negate eachother's great abilities. It's that simple.

5ass
10-01-2013, 01:51 AM
Dude, how old are you?? You can't seriously know so little about the game of basketball can you?

I hate to break it to you over and over again but it isn't going to work out as nicely as you think by throwing two big names together.

Simply put, Shaq dominated in the paint and Lebron does most of his damage in the paint. There isn't enough room for the both of them. They play different styles, one half court, the other fastbreK. They would negate eachother's great abilities. It's that simple.

Bron is a one man fast break, all you need is the rest of the team to run, Shaq doesnt have to. I knw Shaq isnt the ideal fit, but you claiming that Lebron's game wouldnt be effective with Shaq is wrong.

5ass
10-01-2013, 01:53 AM
also why are you going on about bron not being effective in the half court? Like he's just a transition player?

Supreme LA
10-01-2013, 01:56 AM
Bron is a one man fast break, all you need is the rest of the team to run, Shaq doesnt have to. I knw Shaq isnt the ideal fit, but you claiming that Lebron's game wouldnt be effective with Shaq is wrong.

I never said Lebron wouldn't be effective. Lebron is Lebron and he is going to do what he does whenever opportunities present themselves. My point is that there would less ideal opportunities for him would be limited some (even a great deal) when Shaq is on the floor.

It just how basketball is played. It's not a one man game. It's a team game period.

Supreme LA
10-01-2013, 01:59 AM
also why are you going on about bron not being effective in the half court? Like he's just a transition player?

I didn't say that either. I said Shaq would be pose a problem for any team that likes to run. And he would have a bigger effect on a guy who lives off of power drives to the basket.

The whole reason why Miami is as good as they are is because Lebron is able to be the player he is. You can't maximize Lebron's talents w/ dominant center like Shaq like the way Lebron can when he has lanes to the rim and shooter spread out all over the floor. That's what makes Miami tough to guard on offense.

copper!
10-01-2013, 02:00 AM
i dont get this argument saying chaq would clog the lane too much for lebron. was kobe not a slasher when he played with shaq? lebron penetrating the defense then dishing to shaq = amazing

Supreme LA
10-01-2013, 02:03 AM
i dont get this argument saying chaq would clog the lane too much for lebron. was kobe not a slasher when he played with shaq? lebron penetrating the defense then dishing to shaq = amazing

Lebron penetrating the lane and dishing to Shaq for what? An open jumper?? LMAO!

How is Lebron supposed to have direct wide open lanes to even drive head on to the rim if Shaq is in there initially with 3 defenders around him clogging the lane?

You guys don't get that it wasn't just Shaq in the paint but 3 other defenders he carried on his back with him to the rim. The paint is rarely open for drives when Shaq is there. That's what made the triangle a great fit for Shaq, because he could pass so well to cutters.

I hate to make it sound this simple because there are other factors but if you simply realize that Shaq played inside out and Lebron plays drive & kick, then you might see or imagine how their games would clash.

jerellh528
10-01-2013, 03:00 AM
I think labron and shack wood win elevendy.

ntd
10-01-2013, 03:05 AM
Quick answer? More than Kobe. He's a better player in nearly every regard.

jerellh528
10-01-2013, 03:25 AM
Some body sucks at knowing how sports work.. not sayin no names :whistle: ^

LAcowBOMBER
10-01-2013, 03:32 AM
Because he never complains about touches? Because he doesnt take ill advised shots? Because he decided to join two other high usage superstars? Because he's always willing to share the ball even when the game is on the line? Theres no reason to suggest they wouldve clashed.

Lebron has NEVER played second fiddle to anyone. When he went to Miami it was still his team and it obviously was his team in Cleveland. Again, not saying it wouldn't work, but it is foolish to be convinced that it certainly would work. And even if he didn't complain, it doesn't mean their playing styles would mesh

Mcdoh
10-01-2013, 03:32 AM
don't know how many but they'll definitely win..

jerellh528
10-01-2013, 03:41 AM
these kinda threads are stupid as ****. What if kobe didnt spend his prime on a rotting lakers team? what if jordan played for the celtics or grizzlies in the 90s

Chronz
10-01-2013, 03:49 AM
Because neither Ben Wallace nor Joel Anthony are inside scoring threats.
Thats his point. Those guys commanded no respect, Shaq was a dominating inside presence who opened the game up for slashers and shooters alike. If having those guys didn't stifle Brons game why would someone who could actually suck in a defense?


Obviously, Shaq was and therefore he would demand and NEED the ball to be effective.
Good, thats exactly what a 1-2 punch should do.


That was an easy question. Give me something tougher.
LMFAO


And why do you automatically assume the coach would cater to Lebron? I actually see a coach like PJ building his offense around Shaq still.
Bron would play like a more well rounded Pippen, with Shaq being the post threat.


And isn't that the basis of my argument? That Shaq and Lebron don't mesh as well as ignorant fans think?
What makes them ignorant, I think the 2 would play brilliantly together, the 2 most dominating athletes at their position, one who prefers to facilitate (unlike Kobe who admittedly hated the triangle at one point because it FORCED him to facilitate) and the most dominant finisher, yea whats not to like.


You can't just throw two superstars and think it's going to work. They both have contrasting styles for how each could dominate and be most effective. That is why I have always said that it wouldn't be as great as everyone thinks.
Bron and D-Wade are a far worse pairing for each other IMO. Complete skillset overlap right there.

Chronz
10-01-2013, 03:54 AM
Lebron has NEVER played second fiddle to anyone.
Point remains, LeBron HAS sacrificed his own individual supremacy for the betterment of his teams. Check out his stats when Wade isn't on the floor and you will see what I mean.


When he went to Miami it was still his team and it obviously was his team in Cleveland.
Year 1 he shared the ball pretty much equally with Wade. So no, try again.


Again, not saying it wouldn't work, but it is foolish to be convinced that it certainly would work. And even if he didn't complain, it doesn't mean their playing styles would mesh
Remember when Phil Jackson wanted to trade Kobe for Jason Kidd and Shawn Marion. Bron essentially combines their talents to forge the kind of player PJ loves having as a big PG ala Pippen or Harper. If he has faith in a guy like Kidd meshing with Shaq, then I have no reason to doubt a far superior player producing significantly better results.

Chronz
10-01-2013, 04:01 AM
Would've been interesting to see LBJ play in a non P&R offense where he has total control. His numbers would probably decline drastically (all around), considering Shaq, Horry, etc. were solid rebounders.
Not convinced of a "drastic" decline. I could see his assists "drastically" improving during his most athletic days (before Miami) alongside Shaq, he had his career high in assist when he got to play with an old Shaq, and I think that had something to do with him being his best finisher even then (BTW thats pretty sad). He could be more selective with his shots and afford to focus more intently on defense too. His rebounding would have dwindled but it would still be an elite rebounder and the team would definitely be much improved as a result.


Impossible question to answer. Could be more, could be less. Also, people seem to forget that Kobe was never in his prime with Shaq.
But Kobe DID have one of his best seasons with Shaq IMO. That Bron wouldn't need to be in his prime to win with Shaq is a good thing, that Bron entered his prime sooner than Kobe would help as well.


Kobe was what? 25 when Shaq left LA?
Yeah, its a shame he wasn't NBA ready from day 1, ala Bron. Or else those years would have meant more.

Chronz
10-01-2013, 04:05 AM
Dumb thread.
Why? The basis is EXACTLY the same as your thread, you're really showing your butthurtedness here.

TmacBryant
10-01-2013, 04:53 AM
10 rings


The Triangle needs shooters on the outside so a big man like Shaq can dominate and Kobe is better than Lebron in that respect. I don't know if Lebron and Shaq would mesh because Lebron's ego is just as bad as Kobe's if not worse.

5ass
10-01-2013, 05:03 AM
The Triangle needs shooters on the outside so a big man like Shaq can dominate and Kobe is better than Lebron in that respect. I don't know if Lebron and Shaq would mesh because Lebron's ego is just as bad as Kobe's if not worse.

really? You really want to make that claim?

5ass
10-01-2013, 05:10 AM
Point remains, LeBron HAS sacrificed his own individual supremacy for the betterment of his teams. Check out his stats when Wade isn't on the floor and you will see what I mean.


Year 1 he shared the ball pretty much equally with Wade. So no, try again.


Remember when Phil Jackson wanted to trade Kobe for Jason Kidd and Shawn Marion. Bron essentially combines their talents to forge the kind of player PJ loves having as a big PG ala Pippen or Harper. If he has faith in a guy like Kidd meshing with Shaq, then I have no reason to doubt a far superior player producing significantly better results.

Good point.

5ass
10-01-2013, 05:16 AM
Thats his point. Those guys commanded no respect, Shaq was a dominating inside presence who opened the game up for slashers and shooters alike. If having those guys didn't stifle Brons game why would someone who could actually suck in a defense?


Good, thats exactly what a 1-2 punch should do.


LMFAO


Bron would play like a more well rounded Pippen, with Shaq being the post threat.


What makes them ignorant, I think the 2 would play brilliantly together, the 2 most dominating athletes at their position, one who prefers to facilitate (unlike Kobe who admittedly hated the triangle at one point because it FORCED him to facilitate) and the most dominant finisher, yea whats not to like.


Bron and D-Wade are a far worse pairing for each other IMO. Complete skillset overlap right there.
Easily, even Bosh isnt the ideal fit for their team. They're much better off with a Tyson Chandler/Asik. Thanks for replying to that kid. Its hilarious how tries to insult me. Like being an idiot isnt enough, he wants to come off as a ******* as well.

LAcowBOMBER
10-01-2013, 06:57 AM
Point remains, LeBron HAS sacrificed his own individual supremacy for the betterment of his teams. Check out his stats when Wade isn't on the floor and you will see what I mean.


Year 1 he shared the ball pretty much equally with Wade. So no, try again.


Remember when Phil Jackson wanted to trade Kobe for Jason Kidd and Shawn Marion. Bron essentially combines their talents to forge the kind of player PJ loves having as a big PG ala Pippen or Harper. If he has faith in a guy like Kidd meshing with Shaq, then I have no reason to doubt a far superior player producing significantly better results.

He has never taken a backseat to anyone, he would be asked to do that in this hypothetical situation. It's not at all the same as his situation with Wade. Equal number of shots is not the same as the offense running entirely through a player that is not Lebron, plus Shaq didn't defer to Kobe so I wouldn't expect him to with Lebron.

Pippen and Harper are the kinds of guys PJ liked to run the version of the triangle he ran with the Bulls, but the Lakers triangle was different and was focused on getting Shaq the ball, getting Kobe in isolations and getting shooters opened with ball movement.

And again, I'm not saying Lebron wouldn't be successful but there are too many variables for anyone to really predict what would happen. Anyone that thinks they know how a 20 year old Lebron would develop as Shaq's sidekick in the triangle is just full of it

sammyvine
10-01-2013, 07:09 AM
5

NYKnickFanatic
10-01-2013, 08:43 AM
7

ewing
10-01-2013, 08:49 AM
4 million

Tony_Starks
10-01-2013, 10:32 AM
The point is Lebron has never been successful in a offense that didn't run entirely through him. His main attacks are bullying his way to basket and driving and kicking to shooters.

Shaq was probably the biggest defensive draw in the paint ever and kept two to three guys surrounding him at all times. To act like the paint being clogged wouldn't decrease Lebrons effectiveness shows a lack of basketball knowledge or just flat out Lebron worshipping denial.....

HouRealCoach
10-01-2013, 11:06 AM
LeBron and Shaq?? Those are titles for decades

HouRealCoach
10-01-2013, 11:07 AM
The point is Lebron has never been successful in a offense that didn't run entirely through him. His main attacks are bullying his way to basket and driving and kicking to shooters.

Shaq was probably the biggest defensive draw in the paint ever and kept two to three guys surrounding him at all times. To act like the paint being clogged wouldn't decrease Lebrons effectiveness shows a lack of basketball knowledge or just flat out Lebron worshipping denial.....

LeBron can shoot, let's not act like he's Rajon Rondo. LeBron can also post up

jstone0716
10-01-2013, 11:17 AM
I'd say like 6-8 if you account for the roster changes they would've made... a really good stretch 4 and a couple of solid 3 & D guards... put LBJ at the 3 and you have yourself an unbeatable squad. Would make the current heat look silly.

ILLUSIONIST^248
10-01-2013, 11:19 AM
How many times has this stupid, meaningless question been asked on PSD?

This, and 2-3 max. Kobe would have won three in a row had he been in his prime with Lebrons team, so what's the point of this?

Tony_Starks
10-01-2013, 11:42 AM
LeBron can shoot, let's not act like he's Rajon Rondo. LeBron can also post up

Funny you mention Rondo because that's how they defend him. Give him wide open jumpers, but to his credit he's making them now.

How's he going to post with Shaq running from box to box in the paint? There's a reason Shaq never played with another dominant post player, just not enough room. He needed the Horace Grants, Robert Horrys, Haslems of the world to balance the floor....

Chronz
10-01-2013, 02:12 PM
How's he going to post with Shaq running from box to box in the paint? There's a reason Shaq never played with another dominant post player, just not enough room. He needed the Horace Grants, Robert Horrys, Haslems of the world to balance the floor....
Good thing for Bron is that he can actually play the 4, thus giving PJ more versatility to tinker with. And if you had Horry or Grant as the 4, they could find room for both Bron and Shaq in the post, lest we forget the reasons they call it the TRIPLE POST OFFENSE.

And lets not forget Shaq played alongside AC Green and Elden Cambell.


He has never taken a backseat to anyone, he would be asked to do that in this hypothetical situation. It's not at all the same as his situation with Wade.
You do realize you're talking about a naturally deferential player right? He would rather pass than score, it just depends on roster composition. Hell even your boy Kobe said he would love to play with Bron, because ones a passer and the other is a gunner (his words not mine). Why would I doubt a NATURAL FACILITATOR when we already know Kobe held mixed emotions about being FORCED TO DEFER.


Equal number of shots is not the same as the offense running entirely through a player that is not Lebron, plus Shaq didn't defer to Kobe so I wouldn't expect him to with Lebron.
Who said he had to? He would still be the primary option, it would be stupid for him not to be IMO. There is enough touches to go around for both of them.


Pippen and Harper are the kinds of guys PJ liked to run the version of the triangle he ran with the Bulls, but the Lakers triangle was different and was focused on getting Shaq the ball, getting Kobe in isolations and getting shooters opened with ball movement.
You do know that Ron Harper played in both triangles right? Besides I never said they were exact identical versions of the triangle but the principles were the same. Not sure what you are trying to get at here, this is about as relevant as telling me about the differences between Tex's and Hannum's triangle. NEWFLASH. The fact that the triangle can be augmented to fit the personnel is a GOOD thing.


And again, I'm not saying Lebron wouldn't be successful but there are too many variables for anyone to really predict what would happen.
Doesn't mean we cant come to educated conclusions, my main beef was with the Kobephiles who were labeling others ignorant despite offering ignorant arguments equally subjective. No **** we cant predict what happens, but it has nothing to do with variables and everything to do with the fact that we dont have time machines.


Anyone that thinks they know how a 20 year old Lebron would develop as Shaq's sidekick in the triangle is just full of it
Maybe, but its possible they just have more conviction in their argument than you do. Its within anyones right to believe what they want. Im with you on the whole, we dont know with 100% certainty because that holds true with any hypothetical, its a wasted statement. We're here to discuss ball, not common sense. Its a what-if thread, this is the kind of talk your going to get. So spare me the platitudes about not knowing 100%, I get it, dont worry. Your heroes legacy is safe, nobody will ever get to know what they could have done alongside Shaq. But lets not delude ourselves into thinking these guys wouldn't contend. Wade did just fine with an older Shaq. Bron won 60+ with a much older Shaq and a dunce coach holding the team back.

Also, why are you limiting it to just 20 years old? Kobe won at 21. Bron obviously developed faster than Kobe, thus opening that window. Remember part of the reason they traded EJ was because he played Kobe's position.

Tony_Starks
10-01-2013, 02:35 PM
Also keep in mind if talking the Cleveland, broke jumper Lebron then they wouldve just doubled Shaq and dared him to shoot. If we're talking the choke to Boston or Dallas Lebron I'm very skeptical of him taking over fourth quarter crunch times when they start hack-a-Shaq.

So basically I speculate it wouldn't be as easy as people think. Hate Kobe all you want but you couldn't lay off of him ever, he could always get his shot and he was great at taking over games when Shaq needed him to. ( sometimes to his own detriment )

ghettosean
10-01-2013, 03:21 PM
Also keep in mind if talking the Cleveland, broke jumper Lebron then they wouldve just doubled Shaq and dared him to shoot. If we're talking the choke to Boston or Dallas Lebron I'm very skeptical of him taking over fourth quarter crunch times when they start hack-a-Shaq.

So basically I speculate it wouldn't be as easy as people think. Hate Kobe all you want but you couldn't lay off of him ever, he could always get his shot and he was great at taking over games when Shaq needed him to. ( sometimes to his own detriment )

This is basically what I was going to say.... Lebron would be dependent on his jump shot at this point and well we all know how good he is when he's just taking shots all day long. I remember San Antonio daring him to shoot even now in his prime and just letting him and lets not forget the clunker he had in Game 6 with seconds on the clock... Lucky for him he had a smart teammate in Bosh to tap it to Ray Allen (the best 3point shooter of all time)beyond the arc to cover up that mistake and save his legacy. Him getting more rings based on this is not as easy as people make it out to be in the slightest.

amos1er
10-01-2013, 04:06 PM
Why? The basis is EXACTLY the same as your thread, you're really showing your butthurtedness here.

Ya, no ****. Apparently you did not catch the irony of my little joke or slant at the OP. The OP posted in my thread (in fact it was his very first post on this site) and said the very same thing... "Dumb thread". Then went on to create a thread with exactly the same basis. Don't really think I need to explain any further... Just my way of calling him out.

amos1er
10-01-2013, 04:21 PM
Lebron's style of play would not work well with Shaq. He needs the league's best 3 point snipers camping out to give him assists and a super stretch 4 posing as a center who can't really rebound, but will not clog the lane and can hit open jumpers so that he can A. Get more assists, and B. Play PF on defense and get more rebounds. With Shaq, Lebron would have to shoot mostly from the perimeter and mid range, and we all know he can't be a threat that way. Shaq would get most of the rebounds and Lebron couldn't drive and kick for easy points and assists. It would never workout.

Minimal
10-01-2013, 04:25 PM
Lol at people saying LeBron-Shaq duo wouldn't work. This would have been the most unstoppable duo ever, which would have steam rolled the whole league.

ILLUSIONIST^248
10-01-2013, 04:27 PM
Lol at people saying LeBron-Shaq duo wouldn't work. This would have been the most unstoppable duo ever, which would have steam rolled the whole league.

-1

jerellh528
10-01-2013, 04:32 PM
Lol at people saying LeBron-Shaq duo wouldn't work. This would have been the most unstoppable duo ever, which would have steam rolled the whole league.

Would they play together with early Lebron who couldn't space a floor for crap and wouldn't be able to drive into a clogged lane, or prime Lebron who developed his shooting? Because we never saw shaq and prime Kobe either. In the three peat years Kobe was a youngster with no where near as complete game as in his prime, where he was the only option on the floor and was tripled teamed every night. Imagine prime Kobe without having to worry about being triple teamed :drool:

amos1er
10-01-2013, 04:34 PM
Lol at people saying LeBron-Shaq duo wouldn't work. This would have been the most unstoppable duo ever, which would have steam rolled the whole league.

Can you actually explain why it would workout in basketball terms, or are you just making unfounded homeristic opinion based statements that you are trying to pass off as facts. My guess is the latter.

amos1er
10-01-2013, 04:35 PM
Would they play together with early Lebron who couldn't space a floor for crap and wouldn't be able to drive into a clogged lane, or prime Lebron who developed his shooting? Because we never saw shaq and prime Kobe either. In the three peat years Kobe was a youngster with no where near as complete game as in his prime, where he was the only option on the floor and was tripled teamed every night. Imagine prime Kobe without having to worry about being triple teamed :drool:

Exactly. Some of these guys are so blinded by their Leboners that they can't even have a logical debate anymore.

copper!
10-01-2013, 04:46 PM
some people here clearly don't watch basketball

1. lebron played with an old shaq who had very little mobility. he still dominated. imagine a mobile shaq. there goes your "clog the lane" argument.
2. kobe was a slasher early in his career. he was fine with shaq. do people not understand this?
3. lebron wasnt surrounded by 3 point shooters in cleveland, he still dominated.


any other bad arguments?

Kashmir13579
10-01-2013, 05:05 PM
Labren is g arbage

Supreme LA
10-01-2013, 05:34 PM
some people here clearly don't watch basketball

1. lebron played with an old shaq who had very little mobility. he still dominated. imagine a mobile shaq. there goes your "clog the lane" argument.
2. kobe was a slasher early in his career. he was fine with shaq. do people not understand this?
3. lebron was surrounded by 3 point shooters in cleveland, he still dominated.


any other bad arguments?

Just plain dumb.

Jamiecballer
10-01-2013, 06:39 PM
Can you actually explain why it would workout in basketball terms, or are you just making unfounded homeristic opinion based statements that you are trying to pass off as facts. My guess is the latter.

2 of the most dominant players at their positions in the history of the sport. lebron can essentially do anything he wants out there so there is little question he would adapt to whatever complimented Shaq best.

Chronz
10-01-2013, 07:16 PM
some people here clearly don't watch basketball

1. lebron played with an old shaq who had very little mobility. he still dominated. imagine a mobile shaq. there goes your "clog the lane" argument.
2. kobe was a slasher early in his career. he was fine with shaq. do people not understand this?
3. lebron wasnt surrounded by 3 point shooters in cleveland, he still dominated.


any other bad arguments?

The kobephiles are in full blown denial, this will be dismissed entirely watch. Not to mention we've already seen Penny+Wade dominate with a lesser version of the same player and neither of them were excellent shooters.

Chronz
10-01-2013, 08:18 PM
Lebron's style of play would not work well with Shaq.
It already has. And that was an old Shaq who provided him with the best finisher hes ever worked with and a dunce Coach who took forever to realize how to utilize his players.


He needs the league's best 3 point snipers camping out to give him assists and a super stretch 4 posing as a center who can't really rebound,
Are we just going to ignore his Cleveland years and the fact that you're making **** up? You act like its so hard to set up Fisher/Van Exel, Horry/Grant/Cambell, Glen Rice/Eddie Jones and company. Sounds like a GREAT situation to me, particularly because the Lakers wouldn't have needed to wait as long for the secondary star to develop, as Bron was NBA ready by Y2. Kobe was a runner up for the 6th man award (wasn't even considered the best bench player) during the years Bron became a perennial All-NBA player.


A. Get more assists,
Funny enough, he averaged his most assists when he got to play with Shaq..... Either way, he definitely gets more assists than Kobe in the same role, most definitely with greater passing efficiency IMO.


Play PF on defense and get more rebounds.
BS. We've already seen him play with traditional bigmen (Hello Ben Wallace/AV/Shaq/Big Z/Gooden). He does whatever is necessary given the talent on his teams. Being able to play the 4 is another advantage he has over Kobe in that he gives his team more diversity so Im not sure why you want to focus on this. Lakers couldn't get away with Kobe playing the 4 thats for sure, he'd get demolished defensively and on the boards, unlike Bron who at least meets the prerequisite bulk and interior rotating necessary from the position. But hey, lets ignore that for the sake of your biased argument.



With Shaq, Lebron would have to shoot mostly from the perimeter and mid range,
Maybe but lets just examine this Shaq clogs the lane for slashers BS you homers keep spewing, can we at least estimate just what kind of difference it would make on these players?

Looking at a variety of stats to start this project......

Kobe -
2004 (Year with Shaq):
66% Jumpers (eFG% .406 / Assisted on 48%)
34% Inside Shots (.599FG% / Assisted on 45%)

2005 (Year without Shaq + Hand Checking demolished):
71% Jumpers (eFG% .432 / Assisted on 39%)
29% Inside Shots (.605FG% / Assisted on 27%)

To get a baseline comparison, that was Kobes last year with Shaq and first year without him (Whats with the uptick in jumpers without Shaq clogging the lane?) This ignores the MASSIVE difference in turnover rate BTW. Kobe not only chucked more without Shaq, but he turned it over more as well. Sounds LOVELY


Now lets check out what Wade accomplished:

2005:
53% Jumpers (eFG% .389 / Assisted on 13%)
47% Inside Shots (.591FG% / Assisted on 35%)

I wont include the years before and after for him because it exaggerates the improvement and I wont be so unfair to you, he was a rookie before Shaq and would obviously improve radically over the ensuing years and by the time Shaq leaves, we're looking at a completely different pairing from the one they began with. Luckily we do have his production with Shaq on the court to compare to his season averages, that should give us some sort of sense of how Shaq "clogged his lane".

In 2005, Wade spent 1872 of his 2974 regular season minutes with Shaq. In those minutes heres how his efficiency looked (Remember, this is a young Wade who was without a doubt a far inferior shooter/floor spacer for Shaq than both Kobe and Bron);


Wade Season Average (Per 40 Mins) 2005:
25PTS (.478FG%) - 7AST (4.3T.O.) - 5.3REB

Wade With Shaq
22.1PTS (.490FG%) - 6.9AST (3.9T.O.) - 5.0REB



For ***** and giggles, lets look at 2006 now:

Wade Season Average (Per 40 Mins) 2006:
28.3PTS (.495FG%) - 7AST (3.7T.O.) - 5.3REB

Wade With Shaq (1425 Minutes)
25.6PTS (.544FG%) - 7.5AST (3.9T.O.) - 4.9REB



Will you look at that, a primary slasher with a broken jumpshot saw not only his own individual shooting efficiency increase while playing with Shaq but also his passing efficiency. Hmmm? Maybe just because Kobe settled for those jumpers you guys remember, it doesn't mean every player who ever played with Shaq would have to do the same..... LMFAO

We could've kept it going too, but the next year Shaq was no longer a player truly worth fearing and the sample size is much smaller, though the main theme continued (He again shot 53% with Shaq with a lower turnover rate)



I dont have the breakdown for Bron the year he played with Shaq just yet but heres a snippet to compare with Wade+Kobe's overall.

Bron without Shaq
2009
64% Jumpers (eFG% .427 / Assisted on 29%)
36% Inside Shots (.717FG% / Assisted on 38%)


Bron with Shaq:
2010
64% Jumpers (eFG% .436 / Assisted on 24%)
36% Inside Shots (.740FG% / Assisted on 48%)

Well the shot distribution remained the same but his efficiency increased, this is because Shaq took the role vacated by Ben Wallace, who to the chagrin of Kobephiles, actually clogs the lane more than Shaq did because he was absolutely useless offensively. Nothing is worse for an offensive player than having someone who teams have no fear of any kind for. Shaq was actually using too many possessions this season as Mike Brown had no idea how to utilize him or with who for much of the season, but the added benefit was that Bron was seemingly more efficient from the field because of it.


I would mention that Penny's career went to **** without Shaq but that could arguably be due to injuries, still when he did play, his first year without Shaq he saw his production/efficiency dwindle as well. Thats more of a subjective argument tho, Im just going off what I remember, not what I digged into.

Overall, Im not trying to say it was entirely Shaq's presence that enhanced the slashing Wade's game, coaching and roster composition play a slight role, but its clear he did help Wade throughout his career. Even when he was old, he was still attracting doubles.



and we all know he can't be a threat that way.
Based on what? Why would PJ want to trade Kobe for 2 players who couldn't shoot (Kidd+Marion) if he felt they couldn't be threats based on such an innocuous complaint? Can you kobephiles plz come up with something less laughably fallible? This is akin to saying Magic and Kareem couldn't play together because Magic lacked shooting and defense. Remember when Magic played the 4 alongside of Kareem? I could see Bron and Shaq doing some of that on occasion.


Shaq would get most of the rebounds and Lebron couldn't drive and kick for easy points and assists. It would never workout.
Sure, if we just ignore all the positives the duo would provide each other, I suppose you have a point. But its a misguided point so who gives a ****?

Chronz
10-01-2013, 08:19 PM
Ya, no ****. Apparently you did not catch the irony of my little joke or slant at the OP. The OP posted in my thread (in fact it was his very first post on this site) and said the very same thing... "Dumb thread". Then went on to create a thread with exactly the same basis. Don't really think I need to explain any further... Just my way of calling him out.

Didn't realize you could joke around. I honestly didn't know he was the one who trashed your other thread.

Tony_Starks
10-01-2013, 08:36 PM
Now if you want to ask how many chips would KD and Shaq have got that's more of a legit question. His game would compliment Shaq nicely, although he's not the lock down defender Kobe was.....

copper!
10-01-2013, 08:40 PM
Now if you want to ask how many chips would KD and Shaq have got that's more of a legit question. His game would compliment Shaq nicely, although he's not the lock down defender Kobe was.....
lebron is a better defender than kobe ever was.

Chronz
10-01-2013, 08:48 PM
Now if you want to ask how many chips would KD and Shaq have got that's more of a legit question. His game would compliment Shaq nicely, although he's not the lock down defender Kobe was.....
Replace that with Tmac and then I agree. Tmac was just as skilled as Kobe but a better passer/shooter than him as well. He also had the defensive versatility that would mesh with the guys the Lakers had to trade because they took Kobe's position.

Durant wasnt playoff ready until age 22 IMO and wasnt nearly the defender Bron was throughout. His passing game was horrid as well. Thats why I think Tmac meshes with Shaq the best, he combines Brons floor game with Kobe's skill set.

Durant is a better shooter than either of them but I dont think thats enough of a compliment to offset everything that Kobe/Bron/Tmac provided on both ends. Hell I'd still take prime Wade ahead of Durant for Shaq and hes the worst shooter of them all, but he played both ends and could create with the best of them. His only weakness was his lack of durability and size.

3RDASYSTEM
10-01-2013, 09:00 PM
Don't know how many actual titles but a combo of SHAQ/ BRON would have been at worst a FINALS trip annually

from 99-08 they would have been to every conference finals for sure barring major injury and SHAQ staying in early ORL shape, maybe BRON would have rubbed off on him, one freak of nature to another

Tony_Starks
10-01-2013, 09:14 PM
Replace that with Tmac and then I agree. Tmac was just as skilled as Kobe but a better passer/shooter than him as well. He also had the defensive versatility that would mesh with the guys the Lakers had to trade because they took Kobe's position.

Durant wasnt playoff ready until age 22 IMO and wasnt nearly the defender Bron was throughout. His passing game was horrid as well. Thats why I think Tmac meshes with Shaq the best, he combines Brons floor game with Kobe's skill set.

Durant is a better shooter than either of them but I dont think thats enough of a compliment to offset everything that Kobe/Bron/Tmac provided on both ends. Hell I'd still take prime Wade ahead of Durant for Shaq and hes the worst shooter of them all, but he played both ends and could create with the best of them. His only weakness was his lack of durability and size.


Only thing with TMac is I don't think he wouldve had the discipline to bring it on both ends every night. He was good for taking games off against garbage teams then playing out of his mind against serious comp.

With Shaq taking summers off, then eventually taking chunks of the season off I think that wouldve just been too risky of a combo. Wouldn't feel very confident against a prime Spurs.....

5ass
10-01-2013, 09:40 PM
The correct answer to this thread is "much more than Kobe". Even Lakers fans know that. He's just a better player and he probably wouldnt have clashed with Shaq.

LakersEaglesLA
10-01-2013, 10:00 PM
Kobe has 5 rings. LeBron has 2.. LeBron, KD, T Mac, No of these players have the heart, determination, closer mentality and Will To Win Like Kobe.. I don't care how many times people try (You Can't Discredit Kobe Bryant) EVER!

Chronz
10-01-2013, 10:07 PM
Kobe has 5 rings. LeBron has 2.. LeBron, KD, T Mac, No of these players have the heart, determination, closer mentality and Will To Win Like Kobe.. I don't care how many times people try (You Can't Discredit Kobe Bryant) EVER!
Just curious, do you have Elvin Hayes ahead of Karl Malone? Or Hondo ahead of Bron?

amos1er
10-02-2013, 12:25 AM
It already has. And that was an old Shaq who provided him with the best finisher hes ever worked with and a dunce Coach who took forever to realize how to utilize his players.


Are we just going to ignore his Cleveland years and the fact that you're making **** up? You act like its so hard to set up Fisher/Van Exel, Horry/Grant/Cambell, Glen Rice/Eddie Jones and company. Sounds like a GREAT situation to me, particularly because the Lakers wouldn't have needed to wait as long for the secondary star to develop, as Bron was NBA ready by Y2. Kobe was a runner up for the 6th man award (wasn't even considered the best bench player) during the years Bron became a perennial All-NBA player.


Funny enough, he averaged his most assists when he got to play with Shaq..... Either way, he definitely gets more assists than Kobe in the same role, most definitely with greater passing efficiency IMO.


BS. We've already seen him play with traditional bigmen (Hello Ben Wallace/AV/Shaq/Big Z/Gooden). He does whatever is necessary given the talent on his teams. Being able to play the 4 is another advantage he has over Kobe in that he gives his team more diversity so Im not sure why you want to focus on this. Lakers couldn't get away with Kobe playing the 4 thats for sure, he'd get demolished defensively and on the boards, unlike Bron who at least meets the prerequisite bulk and interior rotating necessary from the position. But hey, lets ignore that for the sake of your biased argument.



Maybe but lets just examine this Shaq clogs the lane for slashers BS you homers keep spewing, can we at least estimate just what kind of difference it would make on these players?

Looking at a variety of stats to start this project......

Kobe -
2004 (Year with Shaq):
66% Jumpers (eFG% .406 / Assisted on 48%)
34% Inside Shots (.599FG% / Assisted on 45%)

2005 (Year without Shaq + Hand Checking demolished):
71% Jumpers (eFG% .432 / Assisted on 39%)
29% Inside Shots (.605FG% / Assisted on 27%)

To get a baseline comparison, that was Kobes last year with Shaq and first year without him (Whats with the uptick in jumpers without Shaq clogging the lane?) This ignores the MASSIVE difference in turnover rate BTW. Kobe not only chucked more without Shaq, but he turned it over more as well. Sounds LOVELY


Now lets check out what Wade accomplished:

2005:
53% Jumpers (eFG% .389 / Assisted on 13%)
47% Inside Shots (.591FG% / Assisted on 35%)

I wont include the years before and after for him because it exaggerates the improvement and I wont be so unfair to you, he was a rookie before Shaq and would obviously improve radically over the ensuing years and by the time Shaq leaves, we're looking at a completely different pairing from the one they began with. Luckily we do have his production with Shaq on the court to compare to his season averages, that should give us some sort of sense of how Shaq "clogged his lane".

In 2005, Wade spent 1872 of his 2974 regular season minutes with Shaq. In those minutes heres how his efficiency looked (Remember, this is a young Wade who was without a doubt a far inferior shooter/floor spacer for Shaq than both Kobe and Bron);


Wade Season Average (Per 40 Mins) 2005:
25PTS (.478FG%) - 7AST (4.3T.O.) - 5.3REB

Wade With Shaq
22.1PTS (.490FG%) - 6.9AST (3.9T.O.) - 5.0REB



For ***** and giggles, lets look at 2006 now:

Wade Season Average (Per 40 Mins) 2006:
28.3PTS (.495FG%) - 7AST (3.7T.O.) - 5.3REB

Wade With Shaq (1425 Minutes)
25.6PTS (.544FG%) - 7.5AST (3.9T.O.) - 4.9REB



Will you look at that, a primary slasher with a broken jumpshot saw not only his own individual shooting efficiency increase while playing with Shaq but also his passing efficiency. Hmmm? Maybe just because Kobe settled for those jumpers you guys remember, it doesn't mean every player who ever played with Shaq would have to do the same..... LMFAO

We could've kept it going too, but the next year Shaq was no longer a player truly worth fearing and the sample size is much smaller, though the main theme continued (He again shot 53% with Shaq with a lower turnover rate)



I dont have the breakdown for Bron the year he played with Shaq just yet but heres a snippet to compare with Wade+Kobe's overall.

Bron without Shaq
2009
64% Jumpers (eFG% .427 / Assisted on 29%)
36% Inside Shots (.717FG% / Assisted on 38%)


Bron with Shaq:
2010
64% Jumpers (eFG% .436 / Assisted on 24%)
36% Inside Shots (.740FG% / Assisted on 48%)

Well the shot distribution remained the same but his efficiency increased, this is because Shaq took the role vacated by Ben Wallace, who to the chagrin of Kobephiles, actually clogs the lane more than Shaq did because he was absolutely useless offensively. Nothing is worse for an offensive player than having someone who teams have no fear of any kind for. Shaq was actually using too many possessions this season as Mike Brown had no idea how to utilize him or with who for much of the season, but the added benefit was that Bron was seemingly more efficient from the field because of it.


I would mention that Penny's career went to **** without Shaq but that could arguably be due to injuries, still when he did play, his first year without Shaq he saw his production/efficiency dwindle as well. Thats more of a subjective argument tho, Im just going off what I remember, not what I digged into.

Overall, Im not trying to say it was entirely Shaq's presence that enhanced the slashing Wade's game, coaching and roster composition play a slight role, but its clear he did help Wade throughout his career. Even when he was old, he was still attracting doubles.



Based on what? Why would PJ want to trade Kobe for 2 players who couldn't shoot (Kidd+Marion) if he felt they couldn't be threats based on such an innocuous complaint? Can you kobephiles plz come up with something less laughably fallible? This is akin to saying Magic and Kareem couldn't play together because Magic lacked shooting and defense. Remember when Magic played the 4 alongside of Kareem? I could see Bron and Shaq doing some of that on occasion.


Sure, if we just ignore all the positives the duo would provide each other, I suppose you have a point. But its a misguided point so who gives a ****?

A very nice rebuttal. However, I don't see what Wade has to do with any of this (strawman), nor do I see what the comparison of an old Shaq playing 20 minutes per game with Lebron in Cleveland in a completely different system than Phil's triangle really proves.

amos1er
10-02-2013, 12:26 AM
lebron is a better defender than kobe ever was.

Proof?

amos1er
10-02-2013, 12:31 AM
Replace that with Tmac and then I agree. Tmac was just as skilled as Kobe but a better passer/shooter than him as well. He also had the defensive versatility that would mesh with the guys the Lakers had to trade because they took Kobe's position.

Durant wasnt playoff ready until age 22 IMO and wasnt nearly the defender Bron was throughout. His passing game was horrid as well. Thats why I think Tmac meshes with Shaq the best, he combines Brons floor game with Kobe's skill set.

Durant is a better shooter than either of them but I dont think thats enough of a compliment to offset everything that Kobe/Bron/Tmac provided on both ends. Hell I'd still take prime Wade ahead of Durant for Shaq and hes the worst shooter of them all, but he played both ends and could create with the best of them. His only weakness was his lack of durability and size.

While I do agree that prime T-Mac was very comparable to Kobe, I would hardly say that he was the clear cut better passer or shooter. More assists does not necessarily mean better passer, it just means that they ran a different system. i.e not the triangle. Kobe this last season proved that he can pass with the best of them when he needs to. For the second half of the 12/13 season, Kobe was the best passer on the Lakers... even better than Nash when he needed to be and thats when the Lakers were at their best. Perhaps you should take another look at the alley-oop pass he gave to Shaq in the 2000 WCF that sealed the game against Portland. One of the best passes of all time IMO. In 2003, T-Mac on a crappy team averaged 5.5 apg. In 2005, Kobe on a crappy team non-triangle averaged 6.0 apg. As far as shooting, factor in degree of difficulty and it's a whole other ball game. Surely playing with Shaq would limit T-Mac's ability to shoot close to the rim as well as his number of fg attempts. In 2003 (his best season) T-Mac's TS% was .564. In 2006, Kobe's TS% was .559. Practically identical, only Kobe averaged more points. That was with both of them as the number one guy on a crappy team.

amos1er
10-02-2013, 12:49 AM
Didn't realize you could joke around. I honestly didn't know he was the one who trashed your other thread.

All good. Simply pointing out that my motivations weren't that of a butthurt individual. Not my style.

copper!
10-02-2013, 01:36 AM
Proof?

proof that kobe is better?

lebron has only 1.7 less DWS than kobe in his career. His best season trumps kobe's best season.

Chronz
10-02-2013, 02:13 AM
While I do agree that prime T-Mac was very comparable to Kobe, I would hardly say that he was the clear cut better passer or shooter.
Whys that?


More assists does not necessarily mean better passer, it just means that they ran a different system.
Who mentioned assists? (Strawman). But I understand why you would preemptively make these excuses, you're not very familiar with statistics. The reason Tmac is the better passer (ignoring all objective evidence that backs this) is because hes better able to see over the top of defenses, threads the needle like few others (save for Bron) and has a NATURAL deferential persona, unlike Kobe who admits he has to force himself into that kind of mindset. Tmac would never need to be situated primarily on the wing to be at his best as a passer the way Phil vowed to place Kobe as soon as he returned as coach. We saw how dreadfully turnover prone Kobe became under Rudy T's top of the key attack, it was only when Kobe returned to the structured confines of the triangle that his passing numbers were restored.


i.e not the triangle.
Heres the thing, he was at his worst outside the triangle.


Kobe this last season proved that he can pass with the best of them when he needs to.
LMFAO, this season proved why Kobe isn't up to sniff with the truly elite passers.

I know it pains you but since we are destroying many of your myths already, lets review Kobe's most effective assist seasons over his career and see how your triangle theory stacks up with reality. (Note: Assists are Per36 and Assist% accounts for pace factors). Ill add abit of context with those numbers.



Kobe under the Shaq-based triangle:
2003: 5.1 Assists (3.4 AST to Passing Turnovers) - 27.2Assist%

(When GP relieved Kobe of some passing responsibility)
2004: 4.9 Assists (4.9 AST to Passing Turnovers) - 24.4Assist%

Kobe in Rudy T's top of the key attack
2005: 5.3 Assists (2.8 AST :laugh2: to Passing Turnovers) - 28.5Assist%

Kobe back in the Triangle:
2006: 4.0 Assists (5.5 AST to Passing Turnovers) - 24.1Assist%

Now lets look at Kobe under the pass happy D'Antoni System:
2013: 5.6 Assists (3.2 AST to Passing Turnovers) - 29.7Assist%




Now lets look at Tmac during the same time period: (Keep in mind Tmac declined from his brilliant 03 campaign to rely more on his passing game over the years)


2003: 5.5 Assists (4.2 AST to Passing Turnovers) - 30.0Assist%

Tmac on a defunct team
2004: 5.5 Assists (3.9 AST to Passing Turnovers) - 28.3Assist%

Tmac in JVG's post centric offense
2005: 5.7 Assists (3.7 AST to Passing Turnovers) - 28.6Assist%

Tmac when he fully adopted the Point-Forward role
2007: 6.5 Assists (3.6 AST to Passing Turnovers) - 37.5Assist%


I would look up their Pure Point Rating but you can pretty much get a handle of it by looking at these different/objective barometers. As you can see, Kobe has proven to be the guy who cant handle a great passing burden without becoming immensely more turnover prone (BTW These are just his passing turnovers, some people prefer to look at overall turnovers as it still relates to ball handling but I focused strictly on passing attempts and assists), whereas a guy like Tmac can be much more consistent despite experiencing a more significant athletic decline. And Tmac accomplished this while playing alongside SIGNIFICANTLY less talent, Tmac's assist rate was ALWAYS at its highest when he was able to play alongside Yao. Hes always wanted to be a Penny/Pippen type player, but his situation forced him into scoring more than he really should have. He was never overly effective as a scorer, hes not up to par with Kobe/Bron as far as finishing in the paint, but what he had was a superior floor game and a greater bag of tricks from the perimeter.

Id also like to say that Tmac accomplished most of his high assist seasons despite sharing the ball with truer PG's than Kobe (IMO). In the years in which Kobe leads his team in assists, the 2nd closest guy has a larger dropoff than Tmac's IIRC.



For the second half of the 12/13 season, Kobe was the best passer on the Lakers... even better than Nash when he needed to be and thats when the Lakers were at their best.
The way Nash played this year, is that really saying something?


Perhaps you should take another look at the alley-oop pass he gave to Shaq in the 2000 WCF that sealed the game against Portland. One of the best passes of all time IMO.
I love hyperbole, Just curious tho, what are the top10 best passes of all time anyway?


In 2003, T-Mac on a crappy team averaged 5.5 apg. In 2005, Kobe on a crappy team non-triangle averaged 6.0 apg.
LMFAO.... archaic analysis is archaic .


As far as shooting, factor in degree of difficulty and it's a whole other ball game.
Agreed, Tmac had it harder.


Surely playing with Shaq would limit T-Mac's ability to shoot close to the rim as well as his number of fg attempts.
Ive already addressed this point in the post you conveniently dismissed. Why would it do that? Its possible he enhances his ability, as seen with his other starkicks (like the new term?)


In 2003 (his best season) T-Mac's TS% was .564. In 2006, Kobe's TS% was .559. Practically identical, only Kobe averaged more points. That was with both of them as the number one guy on a crappy team.
Only Tmac accomplished this in what is easily the harder defensive environment. This is why statisticians account for league averages. If you recall, the period between 2005-2008 saw a very significant bump in offensive efficiency, if you recall there was that rule revision regarding that thing called handchecking. We saw the rise of more prolific scorers or resurgence of older ones (AI for instance saw his career prolonged abit longer, Nash as well).

Tmac on the other hand played in the era sandwiched in between the allowance of zones AND some allowance of handchecking, this happened to correlate with the leagues most offensively anemic seasons.

Tmac was far more productive in 2003, was asked to do more than just score at a high rate but create offensive opportunities for inferior teammates without committing costly turnovers. By any respectable measure, Tmac's usage/efficiency combo rate more highly than Kobes. Even PER, which says alot considering how much it loves chuckers.

Chronz
10-02-2013, 02:14 AM
proof that kobe is better?

lebron has only 1.7 less DWS than kobe in his career. His best season trumps kobe's best season.

You're better off leaving the statistical analysis to other people man

Chronz
10-02-2013, 02:32 AM
A very nice rebuttal. However, I don't see what Wade has to do with any of this (strawman), nor do I see what the comparison of an old Shaq playing 20 minutes per game with Lebron in Cleveland in a completely different system than Phil's triangle really proves.
You dont see the purpose of seeing how Shaq influenced his teammates? Even when said teammate is the worst jumpshooter (Wade)? What happened with Shaq "clogging lanes" and forcing players into more jumpshots? If it didn't happen to Wade, why would Bron suddenly see the exact opposite of what actually did happen when he got to play with an Old Shaq (BTW they did run some triangle sets those years, idiot Brown thought Shaq was still worthy of being a heavy primary option when he was on the court). Why did Kobe not abide by your projection? In fact, the opposite happened. Kobe saw his attempts become more perimeter oriented once Shaq left his side.

I get the feeling that you kobephiles think using buzz words like "system/triangle" substantiate your claims but you actually need to back up, break down what it is you're claiming. At least try to find supporting evidence. NOTHING you've said here holds any water, LITERALLY NOTHING. OK maybe something, you always find a way to focus on the minute and abandon/dismiss entire rebuttals.

copper!
10-02-2013, 01:22 PM
You're better off leaving the statistical analysis to other people man

I'm more than capable of using statistical analysis correctly. The question is, why are you bothering with a long, in depth response? You know it will go in one ear and out the other. Not worth the time.

PurpleLynch
10-02-2013, 02:00 PM
[QUOTE=LakersOrNothing;27128350]It's a shamed Lebron has PLAYED in a way tougher league than MJ or any other superstars combined, cause seriously Lebron would of made the 80's and 90's look like rookies from the d-league. And seriously? Imagine if he played along side Shaq, he would of already been the GOAT at age maybe 23. Anyone who says otherwise is a dummy or probably a homer and doesn't respect greatness. No joke. The guy is BEAST.


This was "Dumb & Dumber"'s level of dumbness.I stopped right here.

ILLUSIONIST^248
10-02-2013, 02:08 PM
I'm more than capable of using statistical analysis correctly. The question is, why are you bothering with a long, in depth response? You know it will go in one ear and out the other. Not worth the time.

Obviously your not. Whos dupe are you btw?

Chronz
10-02-2013, 08:48 PM
I'm more than capable of using statistical analysis correctly. The question is, why are you bothering with a long, in depth response? You know it will go in one ear and out the other. Not worth the time.
I guess we'll see. Luckily for you these stans dont know much outside of their Kobe worshiping.

And its really no bother, I've seen where arguments like yours go, its far more easily dismissed IMO.

amos1er
10-02-2013, 09:24 PM
You're better off leaving the statistical analysis to other people man

Lol.

amos1er
10-02-2013, 09:26 PM
I'm more than capable of using statistical analysis correctly. The question is, why are you bothering with a long, in depth response? You know it will go in one ear and out the other. Not worth the time.

This from the guy who dissed my thread about comparing how a prime Shaq would have done in Russell's shoes and then goes and starts one about how prime Lebron would have done in Kobe's shoes. Hypocrisy at it's finest.

amos1er
10-02-2013, 09:34 PM
You dont see the purpose of seeing how Shaq influenced his teammates? Even when said teammate is the worst jumpshooter (Wade)? What happened with Shaq "clogging lanes" and forcing players into more jumpshots? If it didn't happen to Wade, why would Bron suddenly see the exact opposite of what actually did happen when he got to play with an Old Shaq (BTW they did run some triangle sets those years, idiot Brown thought Shaq was still worthy of being a heavy primary option when he was on the court). Why did Kobe not abide by your projection? In fact, the opposite happened. Kobe saw his attempts become more perimeter oriented once Shaq left his side.

I get the feeling that you kobephiles think using buzz words like "system/triangle" substantiate your claims but you actually need to back up, break down what it is you're claiming. At least try to find supporting evidence. NOTHING you've said here holds any water, LITERALLY NOTHING. OK maybe something, you always find a way to focus on the minute and abandon/dismiss entire rebuttals.

I just don't see Lebron being effective with a prime ball dominating high usage Shaq clogging up the lane for him. Lebron is most effective either driving the lane or operating in the post. Surely Phil would go with the most dominant player in NBA history and give Shaq most of the touches in the post and work mostly through him. Lebron would have to find a way to be a threat from the perimeter for the duo to work. I just don't see that happening. Especially considering those Laker teams didn't have the 3 point shooters Miami had. Lebron has yet to prove he can beat a superior team without two additional superstars and 5 guys who can shoot over 40% from 3. You have to admit, that Lebron wouldn't be putting up 28, 7, and 8 with a prime Shaq playing in the triangle. He would be more of a 24, 5, 5 guy. Less rebounds because of Shaq and wouldn't have the usage or system to get as many assists. His scoring opportunities would be limited as well... Especially considering he would have to create a good amount of them from outside the paint to give Shaq optimal space to operate.

amos1er
10-02-2013, 09:49 PM
Whys that?


Who mentioned assists? (Strawman). But I understand why you would preemptively make these excuses, you're not very familiar with statistics. The reason Tmac is the better passer (ignoring all objective evidence that backs this) is because hes better able to see over the top of defenses, threads the needle like few others (save for Bron) and has a NATURAL deferential persona, unlike Kobe who admits he has to force himself into that kind of mindset. Tmac would never need to be situated primarily on the wing to be at his best as a passer the way Phil vowed to place Kobe as soon as he returned as coach. We saw how dreadfully turnover prone Kobe became under Rudy T's top of the key attack, it was only when Kobe returned to the structured confines of the triangle that his passing numbers were restored.


Heres the thing, he was at his worst outside the triangle.


LMFAO, this season proved why Kobe isn't up to sniff with the truly elite passers.

I know it pains you but since we are destroying many of your myths already, lets review Kobe's most effective assist seasons over his career and see how your triangle theory stacks up with reality. (Note: Assists are Per36 and Assist% accounts for pace factors). Ill add abit of context with those numbers.



Kobe under the Shaq-based triangle:
2003: 5.1 Assists (3.4 AST to Passing Turnovers) - 27.2Assist%

(When GP relieved Kobe of some passing responsibility)
2004: 4.9 Assists (4.9 AST to Passing Turnovers) - 24.4Assist%

Kobe in Rudy T's top of the key attack
2005: 5.3 Assists (2.8 AST :laugh2: to Passing Turnovers) - 28.5Assist%

Kobe back in the Triangle:
2006: 4.0 Assists (5.5 AST to Passing Turnovers) - 24.1Assist%

Now lets look at Kobe under the pass happy D'Antoni System:
2013: 5.6 Assists (3.2 AST to Passing Turnovers) - 29.7Assist%




Now lets look at Tmac during the same time period: (Keep in mind Tmac declined from his brilliant 03 campaign to rely more on his passing game over the years)


2003: 5.5 Assists (4.2 AST to Passing Turnovers) - 30.0Assist%

Tmac on a defunct team
2004: 5.5 Assists (3.9 AST to Passing Turnovers) - 28.3Assist%

Tmac in JVG's post centric offense
2005: 5.7 Assists (3.7 AST to Passing Turnovers) - 28.6Assist%

Tmac when he fully adopted the Point-Forward role
2007: 6.5 Assists (3.6 AST to Passing Turnovers) - 37.5Assist%


I would look up their Pure Point Rating but you can pretty much get a handle of it by looking at these different/objective barometers. As you can see, Kobe has proven to be the guy who cant handle a great passing burden without becoming immensely more turnover prone (BTW These are just his passing turnovers, some people prefer to look at overall turnovers as it still relates to ball handling but I focused strictly on passing attempts and assists), whereas a guy like Tmac can be much more consistent despite experiencing a more significant athletic decline. And Tmac accomplished this while playing alongside SIGNIFICANTLY less talent, Tmac's assist rate was ALWAYS at its highest when he was able to play alongside Yao. Hes always wanted to be a Penny/Pippen type player, but his situation forced him into scoring more than he really should have. He was never overly effective as a scorer, hes not up to par with Kobe/Bron as far as finishing in the paint, but what he had was a superior floor game and a greater bag of tricks from the perimeter.

Id also like to say that Tmac accomplished most of his high assist seasons despite sharing the ball with truer PG's than Kobe (IMO). In the years in which Kobe leads his team in assists, the 2nd closest guy has a larger dropoff than Tmac's IIRC.



The way Nash played this year, is that really saying something?


I love hyperbole, Just curious tho, what are the top10 best passes of all time anyway?


LMFAO.... archaic analysis is archaic .


Agreed, Tmac had it harder.


Ive already addressed this point in the post you conveniently dismissed. Why would it do that? Its possible he enhances his ability, as seen with his other starkicks (like the new term?)


Only Tmac accomplished this in what is easily the harder defensive environment. This is why statisticians account for league averages. If you recall, the period between 2005-2008 saw a very significant bump in offensive efficiency, if you recall there was that rule revision regarding that thing called handchecking. We saw the rise of more prolific scorers or resurgence of older ones (AI for instance saw his career prolonged abit longer, Nash as well).

Tmac on the other hand played in the era sandwiched in between the allowance of zones AND some allowance of handchecking, this happened to correlate with the leagues most offensively anemic seasons.

Tmac was far more productive in 2003, was asked to do more than just score at a high rate but create offensive opportunities for inferior teammates without committing costly turnovers. By any respectable measure, Tmac's usage/efficiency combo rate more highly than Kobes. Even PER, which says alot considering how much it loves chuckers.

According to your numbers, Kobe was the more effective passer in the triangle with 5.5 apg to passing turnovers. Not sure how this helps your argument.

Also, I don't know why we are factoring turnovers. One's passing ability is not measured by how much they turn the ball over. One can turn the ball over for a multitude of reasons... Not just an arrant pass. Could be that they charge too much, get the ball stripped, too many offensive fouls, traveling, etc. I could also argue that total assist numbers don't tell the whole story of a players passing ability either. Eye test could be a tie breaker with two players as closely matched as Kobe and T-Mac were.

Again, not saying Kobe was superior by leaps and bounds, prime T-Mac was one of the best to ever lace them up... I already said he was very comparable to prime Kobe. The thing that separates them and I'm sure you would agree is that Kobe had far more years as a top tier player than T-Mac had. You should really watch the movie Rush that just came out. I saw it last night and it made me think a lot of Kobe and T-Mac. It's about two racers James Hunt and Niki Lauda who had one of the greatest rivalries in Formula One racing. Hunt and Lauda were very much evenly matched in their primes, only Lauda had the better work ethic while Hunt partied all the time and was satisfied with only one championship. Needless to say Lauda went on to win multiple titles due to his hunger, while Hunt didn't stay dedicated and retired early.

amos1er
10-02-2013, 10:04 PM
My bad if I gave away some spoilers if you were planning on seeing it.

copper!
10-02-2013, 10:20 PM
I just don't see Lebron being effective with a prime ball dominating high usage Shaq clogging up the lane for him. Lebron is most effective either driving the lane or operating in the post. Surely Phil would go with the most dominant player in NBA history and give Shaq most of the touches in the post and work mostly through him. Lebron would have to find a way to be a threat from the perimeter for the duo to work. I just don't see that happening. Especially considering those Laker teams didn't have the 3 point shooters Miami had. Lebron has yet to prove he can beat a superior team without two additional superstars and 5 guys who can shoot over 40% from 3. You have to admit, that Lebron wouldn't be putting up 28, 7, and 8 with a prime Shaq playing in the triangle. He would be more of a 24, 5, 5 guy. Less rebounds because of Shaq and wouldn't have the usage or system to get as many assists. His scoring opportunities would be limited as well... Especially considering he would have to create a good amount of them from outside the paint to give Shaq optimal space to operate.
explain to me why wade did just fine with shaq then

Chronz
10-02-2013, 10:30 PM
I just don't see Lebron being effective with a prime ball dominating high usage Shaq clogging up the lane for him.
What makes you think he would clog the lane for him when we already KNOW that Kobe wound up settling for MORE jumpers his first year sans Shaq? What about Shaq's proven track record of opening up the game for slashers (like Wade, who BTW has a much worse jumper than Bron) as well as shooters.

You've made your opinion clear, Im just wondering why you're ignoring the glaring issues that go against your theories? Why is Bron so unique? Do you hate him that much that you're willing to ignore facts? Why didn't Wade (a player who is an even WORSE shooter) be rendered so ineffective with Shaq? Not buying this theory that there arent enough possessions for both of them to be utilized. Bron playing with Wade is already a bigger misfit of talent/skill than playing with someone who would most likely open up the game for him.


Lebron is most effective either driving the lane or operating in the post.
Same thing with Kobe and Wade. They are at their most effective when getting high% looks inside and guess what, Shaq was able to provide them with those. Why did Kobe settle for MORE jumpers his first year without Shaq if Shaq allegedly clogged his lane?



Lebron would have to find a way to be a threat from the perimeter for the duo to work.
I've seen absolutely no evidence to support this theory. Why does Bron have to do this when its been proven that Shaq can open up the game for slashers as well as shooters.


Especially considering those Laker teams didn't have the 3 point shooters Miami had.
Bron was just as productive in the years before Miami and didn't have the threats the Lakers had to enhance his efficiency.
Bron has played with the offensively challenged/often injured Eric Snow and Larry Hughes in his backcourt, along with the likes of Ben Wallace and AV. Not buying that Fisher/Van Exel, Eddie Jones/Glen Rice, Horry/Grant with Shaq attracting so much attention are so hard to set up.



Lebron has yet to prove he can beat a superior team without two additional superstars and 5 guys who can shoot over 40% from 3.
Actually he has already defeated a superior team in Detroit when he dragged trash to the Finals. He also won a championship with Wade and Bosh playing NOTHING like superstars so thats false as well. In fact, Bron was so thoroughly dominant, Larry Bird wonders if there has ever been a single more dominant playoff run. Not that I agree with him, but it gos to show what Bron is capable of.

Besides, Kobe has never proven to beat a superior team either, nor inferior teams without the help of the leagues most productive 2-way frontcourts, not seeing how this is relevant. There is more than 1 way to skin a cat, Bron doesn't have to prove anything, only idiots think players have to win a single kind of way.


You have to admit, that Lebron wouldn't be putting up 28, 7, and 8 with a prime Shaq playing in the triangle. He would be more of a 24, 5, 5 guy.
LMFAO this is getting to easy. Why would I have to buy into your blind analysis when you've already been wrong on so many of your theories. Bron has played on some of the best rebounding teams in the league and has never averaged those kind of pathetic rebound numbers. In fact, in 2008, the Cavs were statistically the 2nd best defensive rebounding team in the league with Bron posting 6.1 Defensive rebounds per game, you add just 1 offensive rebound (a conservative estimate) to that tally and you're already at 7.1 rebounds per game. So tell me, why does Bron become Kobe like in his rebounding? Oh yeah, because you're a massive homer who lacks the integrity to keep his mouth shut on things he OBVIOUSLY has no clue about.

The only way I can buy 24-5-5 is if Bron-Shaq are utterly destroying the league to the point where he plays like 30MPG or something. Seriously, just stop talking out of your ***, this is getting embarrassing now. Show me the extensive analysis that proves your rebounding theory. Thats just rebounding, if you cant even get simple rebounding analysis right, why would I care about your take on the more intricate stuff?

amos1er
10-02-2013, 10:33 PM
explain to me why wade did just fine with shaq then

Explain to me why you are stealing other peoples arguments and acting like they are your own?

Chronz
10-02-2013, 10:34 PM
explain to me why wade did just fine with shaq then

Better than fine, he was significantly more efficient WITH Shaq on the floor.

Also ask him to explain why Kobe wound up settling for more jumpers when Shaq left his side.

Chronz
10-02-2013, 10:35 PM
Explain to me why you are stealing other peoples arguments and acting like they are your own?

Because the questions remain unanswered. And why do you have a problem with him cosigning when its all dellusionist and you ever do?

amos1er
10-02-2013, 10:36 PM
Ugh. I don't have time to reply to all that now. I have an appointment to keep. I'll get back to this later.

amos1er
10-02-2013, 10:37 PM
Because the questions remain unanswered. And why do you have a problem with him cosigning when its all dellusionist and you ever do?

He didn't cosign. He was trying to act like it was his argument. A cosigner quotes the other person's opinion and give them the credit. What he did is a form of plagiarism.

amos1er
10-02-2013, 10:39 PM
I'll answer that later tonight.

5ass
10-02-2013, 10:43 PM
I just don't see Lebron being effective with a prime ball dominating high usage Shaq clogging up the lane for him. Lebron is most effective either driving the lane or operating in the post. Surely Phil would go with the most dominant player in NBA history and give Shaq most of the touches in the post and work mostly through him. Lebron would have to find a way to be a threat from the perimeter for the duo to work. I just don't see that happening. Especially considering those Laker teams didn't have the 3 point shooters Miami had. Lebron has yet to prove he can beat a superior team without two additional superstars and 5 guys who can shoot over 40% from 3. You have to admit, that Lebron wouldn't be putting up 28, 7, and 8 with a prime Shaq playing in the triangle. He would be more of a 24, 5, 5 guy. Less rebounds because of Shaq and wouldn't have the usage or system to get as many assists. His scoring opportunities would be limited as well... Especially considering he would have to create a good amount of them from outside the paint to give Shaq optimal space to operate.

:laugh:

Chronz
10-02-2013, 10:44 PM
According to your numbers, Kobe was the more effective passer in the triangle with 5.5 apg to passing turnovers. Not sure how this helps your argument.
Look again, Tmac easily surpassed those marks. Kobe is only a more efficient passer so long as you limit his playmaking ,ask him to create alot of offense for his teammates and witness his turnovers spike out of control.


Also, I don't know why we are factoring turnovers. One's passing ability is not measured by how much they turn the ball over. One can turn the ball over for a multitude of reasons... Not just an arrant pass. Could be that they charge too much, get the ball stripped, too many offensive fouls, traveling, etc.
READ THE POST. Passing turnovers are just that, Passes that were stolen or resulted in a turnover for the team. These arent all turnovers, I provided these numbers for the very reasons you mentioned. Not all turnovers are a result of passing, I make this abundantly clear for those who dont already have their minds made up. Still, Ive had some interesting conversations with people who feel turnovers that result by way of charges/stripped are situations in which the player SHOULD have passed. We can cover both bases if you wish, the end result is the same . Tmac is MUCH smarter at avoiding turnovers.

Sorry but despite your best attempts, Coaches do consider assist to turnover rates to be of importance when evaluating passing marks, particularly when we focus on PASSING TURNOVERS.



I could also argue that total assist numbers don't tell the whole story of a players passing ability either. Eye test could be a tie breaker with two players as closely matched as Kobe and T-Mac were.
Problem is, you were the one who mentioned assists in the first place and I dont see this as an even comparison, Tmac is so clearly the better passer. You can also tell that Kobe hates being put into the mindset where hes forced into being a facilitator, a stark contrast from the man who idolized Penny and would have rather played a differential role.
Still, I could argue the same for Tmac, the only difference is I have objective evidence to back me, and you require a significant suspension of disbelief in order to ignore the correlation turnovers seem to have in seasons in which Kobe is asked to create more offense for his teammates.


You should really watch the movie Rush that just came out. I saw it last night and it made me think a lot of Kobe and T-Mac. It's about two racers James Hunt and Niki Lauda who had one of the greatest rivalries in Formula One racing. Hunt and Lauda were very much evenly matched in their primes, only Lauda had the better work ethic while Hunt partied all the time and was satisfied with only one championship. Needless to say Lauda went on to win multiple titles due to his hunger, while Hunt didn't stay dedicated and retired early.
Did Hunt suffer a genetic defect that prevented him from fully stepping on the pedal?

Chronz
10-02-2013, 10:45 PM
He didn't cosign. He was trying to act like it was his argument. A cosigner quotes the other person's opinion and give them the credit. What he did is a form of plagiarism.

Delussionist has plagiarized your best/least flawed work already.

copper!
10-02-2013, 10:46 PM
He didn't cosign. He was trying to act like it was his argument. A cosigner quotes the other person's opinion and give them the credit. What he did is a form of plagiarism.

LOL what, does chronz have that question patented? You claim that shaq would clog the lane too much to be effective, so i asked why wade was effective. I think most people with any NBA knowledge would challenge your claim with that. i also asked why kobe was effective with shaq early in his career when he was mostly a slasher, but that got ignored way back. nice job dodged the question, though.

Chronz
10-02-2013, 10:46 PM
I'll answer that later tonight.
Its not very hard to admit that Shaq makes perimeter players more efficient and that Bron would be no different. I agree his superficial averages would take a hit, they already do because of Wade's presence, but why would I care about that when its efficiency that wins games?

copper!
10-02-2013, 10:47 PM
Its not very hard to admit that Shaq makes perimeter players more efficient and that Bron would be no different. I agree his superficial averages would take a hit, they already do because of Wade's presence, but why would I care about that when its efficiency that wins games?
because ringz. /endofstory

Chronz
10-02-2013, 10:56 PM
LOL what, does chronz have that question patented? You claim that shaq would clog the lane too much to be effective, so i asked why wade was effective. I think most people with any NBA knowledge would challenge your claim with that. i also asked why kobe was effective with shaq early in his career when he was mostly a slasher, but that got ignored way back. nice job dodged the question, though.
Im liking you more and more. Hes going to point to Shaq not being in his prime then, something about usage and what not.
Im pretty sure he was the one who was trying to tell me that adding Shaq to Cleveland would stunt LeBron and clog his lane. My response then was the same as it is today, why would Shaq clog the lane more than Ben Wallace? A guy who got ZERO touches and couldn't attract ANY sort of attention with the ball. But somehow Shaq being the most dominant finisher in the history of the game is suppose to detract from LeBron. Instead of making him more efficient like he did all the other slashers he played with.

lakerboy
10-02-2013, 11:05 PM
Im liking you more and more. Hes going to point to Shaq not being in his prime then, something about usage and what not.
Im pretty sure he was the one who was trying to tell me that adding Shaq to Cleveland would stunt LeBron and clog his lane. My response then was the same as it is today, why would Shaq clog the lane more than Ben Wallace? A guy who got ZERO touches and couldn't attract ANY sort of attention with the ball. But somehow Shaq being the most dominant finisher in the history of the game is suppose to detract from LeBron. Instead of making him more efficient like he did all the other slashers he played with.

You just compared Shaq clogging the lane like Ben Wallace. Man.. oh man.

Chronz
10-02-2013, 11:22 PM
Ugh. I don't have time to reply to all that now. I have an appointment to keep. I'll get back to this later.

ugh... plz take ALL the time you need. Dont rush into anything this time, I thought you had enough time in between our last exchange to come at me with a decent rebuttal but if you're just going to regurgitate the same trash all over again, you are truly wasting your time....


BTW, delusionists silence is deafening . PM your boy and tell him to start +1 everything you say because I would REALLY love to hear his take on this.

Chronz
10-02-2013, 11:24 PM
You just compared Shaq clogging the lane like Ben Wallace. Man.. oh man.
And I have a very logical reason for doing so. PLZ tell me your more than just another kobephile who dismisses anything that gos against his irrational belief. That would be a welcomed change of pace. Feel free to give me your 2 cents. You will find many contradictory stances based on what I've seen here.

zn23
10-02-2013, 11:51 PM
Probably 7 or 8. Also keep in mind that he would not have run Shaq out of town like Kobe did.

5ass
10-03-2013, 12:13 AM
ugh... plz take ALL the time you need. Dont rush into anything this time, I thought you had enough time in between our last exchange to come at me with a decent rebuttal but if you're just going to regurgitate the same trash all over again, you are truly wasting your time....


BTW, delusionists silence is deafening . PM your boy and tell him to start +1 everything you say because I would REALLY love to hear his take on this.

+1 ;). You're not rlly expecting an intelligent rebuttel from him, are you?

Chronz
10-03-2013, 12:39 AM
+1 ;). You're not rlly expecting an intelligent rebuttel from him, are you?
rofl... **** no....


:layup: Drills

Thats all this is

I like having something to point to when he tries to pull this faux intellectualism on me. His statistical negligence knows no bounds, its common knowledge by now but we still need a reminder every now and again. He (and his sidekick) are better off sticking to subjective arguments, when you enter the realm of objective/statistical analysis, you enter my domain.

PS. Ima lil drunk right now so forgive me for coming with the thunder

amos1er
10-03-2013, 05:18 AM
What makes you think he would clog the lane for him when we already KNOW that Kobe wound up settling for MORE jumpers his first year sans Shaq?

Correlation does not imply causation. There are a multitude of reasons why this could be... The most obvious being different coach different system. Or even getting used to playing a larger role with higher usage. It could be anything. You have no direct evidence to clearly say that the reason Kobe got to the paint more was due to the presence of Shaq... It's all circumstantial.


What about Shaq's proven track record of opening up the game for slashers (like Wade, who BTW has a much worse jumper than Bron) as well as shooters.

Proven track record??? Lol So one year in Miami is all of the sudden enough evidence to support a trend? Really??? You can do better than that. Besides Wade had his best statistical seasons post Shaq. Not to mention that Shaq saw a significant drop off in production after the 2005 season... Hence more usage for Wade and his increase in production could easily be attributed to his natural growth curve as a player and the fact that he saw in increase in 4 more minutes per game on average from his rookie year. He was a far cry from the same prime Shaq from 2000-2002. Terrible comparison. If we go to see Wade operate in the triangle along side a prime Shaq you might have a point. Next.


You've made your opinion clear, Im just wondering why you're ignoring the glaring issues that go against your theories?

And those are??? Feel free to list them instead of bombarding me with ultra long responses and paraphrasing my rebuttals into 20 separate sub-arguments. Though I know thats a big part of your strategy. Sometimes it's more of a war of attrition debating you than anything else. Conciseness is your friend, not your enemy.


Why is Bron so unique?

No, just stating my opinion. Surely I might be a bit bias at times, but who isn't guilty of that. If I'm right, I'm right, regardless of where my allegiances lie.



Do you hate him that much that you're willing to ignore facts?

I don't hate him at all. In fact, he seems like a pretty chill dude from what I have seen in interviews. I just get annoyed with the amount of unjustified credit he gets from his worshipers. I don't think he is as good as Jordan and Kobe... Thats my opinion and I stand by it... Thats all. Nothing more. Just because I feel that he is not on their level, doesn't mean I hate him. In fact I think he is the best player in the NBA today.

What are these facts you keep referring to? They sound like your PERSONAL interpretation of your own PERSONAL statistical analysis to me. Yes, you know more about advanced basketball stats than I do... That much is obvious. That doesn't mean that I don't know enough about the theories behind them to call you on your bs. I know the difference between a theory and a fact and that is enough to keep me from getting drawn into a solely statistical debate with you where you would have the upper hand. I have enough of a background in logic and debate to know what is fact and what is not fact. Those are my realms, and you sir are not stating any facts... They are your own PERSONAL theories and OPINOINS not matter how much flash you dress them up with... OPINIONS which I happen to disagree with... That is my right and I choose to exercise it. Show me something concrete and convincing and I will not hesitate to admit I am wrong. That I promise you. Just please do me the favor of being concise about it.


Why didn't Wade (a player who is an even WORSE shooter) be rendered so ineffective with Shaq?

Ah, finally... Some direct questioning. So lets get to it...

From 2000-2002 Shaq averaged 38.7 mpg with an average usage of 31.5.

In 2006 (the year the Heat won) Shaq only averaged 30.6 mpg with a usage of 30.0.

A pretty significant drop off which could easily explain more opportunity for Wade to get to the hole.

Now lets look at the playoff numbers...

From 2000-2002 Shaq averaged 42.3 mpg with an average usage of 31.5.

In 2006, Shaq averaged 33 mpg with a usage of 28.5.

A very signifiant drop off and much more opportunity and plays for Wade to get more opportunities closer to the basket. Ten less minutes per game, thats ten more minutes for Wade to have reign to the hoop than Kobe had or what Lebron would have if you put him on those Laker teams. Not to mention all the calls he got in the finals that led to the Heats victory. With 25 FT attempts in a deciding game and the opposing team the only the same amount and I'm sure any legit superstar could have gotten the job done. Now do you see why this is a terrible comparison?


Not buying this theory that there arent enough possessions for both of them to be utilized.

Again... Prime Shaq played 42.3 mpg in the playoffs during the Lakers 3 peat with a usage of 31.5. How does a high usage player like Lebron fit in? We saw what happened to Lebron in 2011 when he wasn't the main cog in the Heat machine. There is no evidence to support Lebron being an effective number 2 option... Especially to someone as ball dominant as prime Shaq... Who mainly operates in the post. From what we have seen from Lebron over the years, he is most effective in a drive and kick offense where he plays heavy minutes and demands high usage. Can you now understand why I have a hard time believing that someone like this could co-exist with the most dominant inside out player in NBA history?


Bron playing with Wade is already a bigger misfit of talent/skill than playing with someone who would most likely open up the game for him.

Really? Lol. Wade has seen a significant reduction in his stats across the board playing with Lebron. In essence, he brought down his game to mesh with Lebron. Do you really think someone with prime Shaq's ego would have made those same adjustments so that Lebron could be the number one guy??? Additionally, do you think Phil would have let that happen??? Would Phil (who has admitted on many occasion that the triangle was designed for a guy like Shaq) not want to run the offense mainly through Shaq and go primarily inside out? Not a chance. Lebron would have to adjust to him and based on what we saw in 2011, he can't do that. Not a good number 2 option at all.


Same thing with Kobe and Wade. They are at their most effective when getting high% looks inside and guess what, Shaq was able to provide them with those.

How so? Triangle ran inside out. What would Lebron's role be in the triangle? There is not point forward in that system. He would either be a wing, or a weak-side forward and the role of playmaker is not solely designed for one player... rather the player who is open to make the assisting pass based on the defensive teams rotation which vary from play to play. Your way off on this one Chronz Lebron's style of play is not designed to run this system and thats exactly what would have been ran if you switched Kobe for Lebron... Wade's role with Shaq was entirely different and of little relevance to this debate and as I mentioned earlier, had his best seasons without Shaq.


Why did Kobe settle for MORE jumpers his first year without Shaq if Shaq allegedly clogged his lane?

Second time you've asked that now. Please reference above as I do not feel like typing it out for you again.


I've seen absolutely no evidence to support this theory. Why does Bron have to do this when its been proven that Shaq can open up the game for slashers as well as shooters.

Likewise I have seen no evidence to dismiss this theory. I've already shown you that there was an enormous difference between prime Shaq that 3-peated with Kobe on the Lakers under Phil and the one that played with Wade and won a championship with Wade in 2006. Can you actually explain to me the offensive scheme the 2006 Heat ran which allowed for Shaq to free up Wade to slash more and why? Or is the circumstantial statistics (which can be attributed to a multitude of things) you provided earlier all you have?


Bron was just as productive in the years before Miami and didn't have the threats the Lakers had to enhance his efficiency.

What does this have to do with anything??? Lebron never played with a dominant big man before Miami. In fact, he ran nearly the same system. Drive and kick to open 3 point snipers or stretch 4's posing as centers. Which big man did he play with again in Cleveland that averaged over 40 minutes per game and had a usage of 32 again? Oh ya... None.


Bron has played with the offensively challenged/often injured Eric Snow and Larry Hughes in his backcourt, along with the likes of Ben Wallace and AV. Not buying that Fisher/Van Exel, Eddie Jones/Glen Rice, Horry/Grant with Shaq attracting so much attention are so hard to set up.

So your bringing up Lebron's worst supporting cast as an example for what??? Did he win with them??? Isn't that what this thread is all about? Swapping Lebron for Kobe and guessing how many rings he would have won. Besides, Kobe didn't reach is prime until 2005-2010 when he didn't even play with Shaq. Wouldn't it be more fair if we subbed in a 21-23 year old Lebron? Thats how old Kobe was during the three-peat. Still think they would have won titles??? A 26 year old Lebron couldn't even get the job done and close out a series against the heavy underdog Mavericks with HCA along with a healthy Wade and Bosh back in the 2011 finals. What make you think a 23 year old Lebron could have closed out close games in the finals where Shaq fouled out? He couldn't even average over 2 ppg in the 4th quarter of the finals and hit clutch when he was 26. I would love to hear your retort for this. 21 year old Kobe was closing out tough road games in the finals against Indiana when Shaq was on the bench. A 21 year old Lebron would be pissing his pants.



Actually he has already defeated a superior team in Detroit when he dragged trash to the Finals. He also won a championship with Wade and Bosh playing NOTHING like superstars so thats false as well. In fact, Bron was so thoroughly dominant, Larry Bird wonders if there has ever been a single more dominant playoff run. Not that I agree with him, but it gos to show what Bron is capable of.

Lol That Detroit team was hardly superior. They only won 3 more regular season games than the Cavs that year and were a shell of their former selves. No Ben Wallace and a coach that lost the team. In that game five everyone raves about, The Pistons only legit defending big man fouled out and Rasheed admittedly quit on the coach at the end of the game. Skip Bayless said it best... Pistons best rim defender, McDyess, ejected after 4 mins! Rasheed quit, CWebb fossil. LeBron had superhighway to basket. Layup drill! Joke. Anyone remember LeBron missed 2 FTs w/ 1:50 left that helped Det force OT? Then AIRBALLED open game-winning jumper w/ 7 secs left in OT! Oh and if you want to bring up the testimonies of former greats like Larry Bird, I could easily bring up Jordan's opinion on the matter... First off he feels that Lebron joining with Bosh and Wade was a joke and that Kobe has always been the superior player. Bird also said that when it came to winning rings, he would take Kobe over Lebron. In fact, his exact words were... "You want to have fun, play with LeBron James. You want a ring, play with Kobe Bryant."


Besides, Kobe has never proven to beat a superior team either, nor inferior teams without the help of the leagues most productive 2-way frontcourts, not seeing how this is relevant. There is more than 1 way to skin a cat, Bron doesn't have to prove anything, only idiots think players have to win a single kind of way.

Lol. Do you really want to compare the competition Kobe faced compared to what Lebron faced. Lebron barely made it past the Spurs even with HCA. Lucky for him he was able to coast to HCA throughout the playoffs due to his cakewalk of a regular season schedule in the weak east with by far the best supporting cast in the NBA. Put the Heat in the west and the Spurs in the east and the Spurs would easily have HCA in the finals and would have most likely dispatched the Heat in six games. Kobe performed much better individually and only needed 5 games to defeat a better younger Spurs team in the 2008 WCF with a lesser supporting cast than Lebron had in this years finals. Lets rewind to 2001 and see how Kobe did against San Antonio's twin towers back when Duncan was having one of his best seasons and compare it to Lebron's performance in this years finals against a broken down aged Spurs team. That ought to be good for a laugh.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...13_finals.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/..._2008_WCF.html

What do you think about the difference in numbers that Kobe put up against younger better Spurs teams on road to success with weaker supporting casts than Lebron had?

2008 WCF

A prime Kobe with a weaker supporting cast than Lebron's 2013 Heat against a younger tougher Spurs team...

Kobe 29.2 ppg, 5.6 rpg, 3.8 apg, 90.9 FT%, 33.3 3PT%, 53.3 FG%. Most importantly...won the series in 5 games with his second best player in Gasol only contributing 13.2 ppg and his third option Odom only contributing 12.8 ppg.

2013 Finals

A prime Lebron vs. a much older Spurs and weaker Spurs team than Kobe played back in the 2008 WCF...

25.3 ppg, 10.9 rpg, 7.0 apg, 79.5 FT%, 35.3 3PT%, 44.7 FG%. Barely won by the skin of their teeth in 7 games. Lebron received more help all around from his supporting cast as well. His second option Wade contributed 19.6 ppg and his third option Bosh contributed 11.9 ppg. Both shot significantly better from the field as well. Wade 47.6 FG% and Bosh 46.2 FG% compared to Gasol 44.6 FG% and Odom 40.4 FG%. Clearly Lebron's big three are in a whole other universe that what Kobe had to work with.

In addition, his fourth and fifth options in Allen and Chalmers also produced more than Kobe's fourth and fifth options in Farmar and Radmanovic. Both Allen and Chalmers contributed double figure scoring. Allen with 10.6 ppg on 54% from the field and from 3 and Chalmers with 10.6 ppg on 39% from the field, but 40.6% from 3. In 2008 Farmar (Kobe's fourth option) contributed 8.4 ppg on 45.7% from the field and 41.7% from 3. Radmanovic (fifth option) contributed 8.4 ppg on 63.3% from the field, but only 27.3% from 3. Clearly Kobe outperformed Lebron with far less help against a better version of the same team.




LMFAO this is getting to easy. Why would I have to buy into your blind analysis when you've already been wrong on so many of your theories. Bron has played on some of the best rebounding teams in the league and has never averaged those kind of pathetic rebound numbers. In fact, in 2008, the Cavs were statistically the 2nd best defensive rebounding team in the league with Bron posting 6.1 Defensive rebounds per game, you add just 1 offensive rebound (a conservative estimate) to that tally and you're already at 7.1 rebounds per game. So tell me, why does Bron become Kobe like in his rebounding? Oh yeah, because you're a massive homer who lacks the integrity to keep his mouth shut on things he OBVIOUSLY has no clue about.

Kobe averaged 7 rebounds in the 2003 season as well... Along side prime Shaq might I add. Though I will give you that he was coming off surgery. Of course there is no way he could have done that playing with 2000-2002 Shaq nor would Lebron... Especially considering Shaq was averaging like 15 rpg in the playoffs. Perhaps he would not average 5 rpg, but it surely wouldn't be the inflated numbers he boasts now with no true center and Bosh as the 2nd best rebounder on the team. Lol. Might I remind you that Lebron does lead the Heat in rebounds, but the Heat were last in the league in rebounds so what good is it to be the best a something that your teams is the worst at. Lebron would most likely get 6.5 rpg at the max with prime Shaq pulling down 15 per game. Lets see if Lebron's ego could have made the adjustment considering how we both know he is all about his stats.


The only way I can buy 24-5-5 is if Bron-Shaq are utterly destroying the league to the point where he plays like 30MPG or something. Seriously, just stop talking out of your ***, this is getting embarrassing now. Show me the extensive analysis that proves your rebounding theory. Thats just rebounding, if you cant even get simple rebounding analysis right, why would I care about your take on the more intricate stuff?

What analysis do I really need. Haven't I wasted enough time responding to your 20 part response already. Anyone with a brainstem can see that when you play along side the most dominating center in NBA history who is pulling down 15 boards per game, your stats are going to take a hit in that department. If you really need an analysis to further prove that to you than your either wasting my time purposely, or your not the statistical genius you though you were.

amos1er
10-03-2013, 05:26 AM
rofl... **** no....


:layup: Drills

Thats all this is

I like having something to point to when he tries to pull this faux intellectualism on me. His statistical negligence knows no bounds, its common knowledge by now but we still need a reminder every now and again. He (and his sidekick) are better off sticking to subjective arguments, when you enter the realm of objective/statistical analysis, you enter my domain.

PS. Ima lil drunk right now so forgive me for coming with the thunder

Calm down there Wyatt Earp... :rolleyes:

The only lay up drill we're talking about here is the one Lebron had in game 5 of the 2007 ECF when the Pistons laid down for him.

Oh and I thought a stat geek like you would know that statistics are subjective arguments as well... Especially when they pertain to your own personal interpretations such as using somewhat similar, yet unrelated scenarios to prove a theory.

amos1er
10-03-2013, 06:25 AM
Im liking you more and more. Hes going to point to Shaq not being in his prime then, something about usage and what not.
Im pretty sure he was the one who was trying to tell me that adding Shaq to Cleveland would stunt LeBron and clog his lane. My response then was the same as it is today, why would Shaq clog the lane more than Ben Wallace? A guy who got ZERO touches and couldn't attract ANY sort of attention with the ball. But somehow Shaq being the most dominant finisher in the history of the game is suppose to detract from LeBron. Instead of making him more efficient like he did all the other slashers he played with.

Awe... Isn't that cute. Chronz is trying to recruit a sidekick. :love:

amos1er
10-03-2013, 06:32 AM
Probably 7 or 8. Also keep in mind that he would not have run Shaq out of town like Kobe did.

Ya, a 21 year old Lebron would really be able to close out games with Shaq on in foul trouble in the 4th quarter. LMAO! He couldn't even close out games at age 26 with the best big three of all time. Oh and ya, ball dominant Lebron would really have gotten along great with ball dominant Shaq... Would have worked out well considering Lebron had no jump shot to speak of at age 21-23 nor any defensive game to speak of for that matter. That whole running Shaq out of town is typical ignorant Lebronite BS. Even Shaq admits that it wasn't Kobe's fault. Perhaps you should actually know what what the **** your talking about before you go and offer us your illustrious opinion.

Jamiecballer
10-03-2013, 09:29 AM
agreed. "A" for effort though.

Chronz
10-03-2013, 01:02 PM
LOL so how do you want me to respond, vaguely or specifically assault your post. Of course its part of my strategy to break down what it is you're saying, Im quite capable of skimming over your entire post and summing up its main failures but I would much rather debate the way you just did now. By actually quoting what it is I've said, and I appreciate the effort, I really do, but you're not comprehending the numbers I showed you before.

Lets look at this simple/GLARING flaw:


Ah, finally... Some direct questioning. So lets get to it...
LMFAO, I've literally been asking that question since the beginning, the only thing finally happening is you attempting to answer it. This was your response:


From 2000-2002 Shaq averaged 38.7 mpg with an average usage of 31.5.

In 2006 (the year the Heat won) Shaq only averaged 30.6 mpg with a usage of 30.0.

A pretty significant drop off which could easily explain more opportunity for Wade to get to the hole.
Except it doesn't explain ****, because the numbers I showed you were far more specific. They were the numbers Wade put up WITH SHAQ ON THE COURT. Not overall. The minutes Wade played without Shaq saw his efficiency decrease.

So tell me, why would Wade getting to the hole more make him less efficient if thats what he does best? Are you implying that Wade's jumper becomes money when Shaq is on the court? It really doesn't matter because at the end of the day, he shot 53% with Shaq on the court, thats much higher than his season average.


You also ignore the year Shaq was closer to his prime form, you know, the year he was runner up for MVP and also more productive. Why ignore that season when its of more importance?

You cant combat SPECIFIC analysis with vague estimations bro, we KNOW EXACTLY how many minutes Wade and Shaq were together so why deal with the whole " it could easily explain more opportunity for Wade to get to the hole." when its clear that he was LESS efficient without Shaq on the court.


Essentially your rebuttal boils down to this:
More opportunities for Wade to get to the hole = less efficient Wade????


LMFAO TRY AGAIN



Ill get to the rest of your trash later, taking my dog for a walk.

Chronz
10-03-2013, 01:06 PM
The only lay up drill we're talking about here is the one Lebron had in game 5 of the 2007 ECF when the Pistons laid down for him.
Thats how thoroughly dominant Bron was. He turned prideful champions into sheep. Doesn't change the fact that the Pistons had the better team and yet lost to a HISTORIC performance.


Oh and I thought a stat geek like you would know that statistics are subjective arguments as well...Especially when they pertain to your own personal interpretations such as using somewhat similar, yet unrelated scenarios to prove a theory.
Nope. Stats have no bias, they tell it how it is. For my interpretation of those stats to be flawed would be to come to conclusions like you have, you know, like saying Wade had more opportunities to get to the rack while Shaq was on the bench, yet somehow was less efficient in doing what he does best. Thats when the OBJECTIVE data does not match your subjective interpretation.

tredigs
10-03-2013, 01:18 PM
Woah - look at all the master-de-bation going on in here! This should be an Olympic sport. There's a slot open with wrestling out, right?

justinnum1
10-03-2013, 01:23 PM
probably 6 or 7.

FlashBolt
10-03-2013, 02:03 PM
A prime LJ and prime Shaq... that is the formula to winning for YEARS...

Raps08-09 Champ
10-03-2013, 02:03 PM
A lot. Assuming Lebron starts his career the same time as Kobe did, he'd probably have as much or more than Jordan by now.

Chronz
10-03-2013, 02:15 PM
Correlation does not imply causation. There are a multitude of reasons why this could be... The most obvious being different coach different system. Or even getting used to playing a larger role with higher usage. It could be anything. You have no direct evidence to clearly say that the reason Kobe got to the paint more was due to the presence of Shaq... It's all circumstantial.
Which is EXACTLY my point. The presence of Shaq would not simply imply that Bron has to do anything you've said, not when we already know a similar player to Bron with an even worse jumpshot did the exact opposite with Shaq. You have no supporting evidence to back your theories meanwhile I have objective data that confirms Shaq's friendly influence on his sidekicks.

And dont you understand how much blaming the system would hinder your argument, essentially you're saying playing in the triangle allowed Kobe more inside looks otherwise, why mention the system? Thanks for that confirmation, I was hoping you would go this route, I will fall back on this statement in your future "system" arguments.


Or even getting used to playing a larger role with higher usage.
His individual usage was exactly the same. If you mean combined with his playmaking burden, then I can understand, just gos to show why Kobe couldn't handle the do it all responsibilities very well back then.



Proven track record??? Lol So one year in Miami is all of the sudden enough evidence to support a trend?
1? Try every single minute Wade played alongside Shaq, which spans more than 1 year.



Really??? You can do better than that.
I wish you could but lying has become your art form.


Besides Wade had his best statistical seasons post Shaq.
You expect me to believe your statistical insight without proof? By what measure is this true, more importantly what does that have to do with the fact that the years they were together, he was more efficient with Shaq on the court. Why wouldn't a player improve as he entered his prime BTW?



Not to mention that Shaq saw a significant drop off in production after the 2005 season...
Why are you ignoring the 2005 season BTW?


Hence more usage for Wade and his increase in production could easily be attributed to his natural growth curve as a player and the fact that he saw in increase in 4 more minutes per game on average from his rookie year.
LMFAO. Did you even read my post? I've EXCLUDED his rookie year for those very reasons, INSTEAD, what I did offer was how Wade's play differentiated when Shaq was on the court vs on the bench. Thats more of a direct comparison that eliminates aging curve in its entirety.

I love how you contradict yourself again tho, on one hand you point to an allegedly superior statistical season by Wade in the years he played without Shaq, neglecting the fact that(if true), could be the result of natural growth.


He was a far cry from the same prime Shaq from 2000-2002. Terrible comparison. If we go to see Wade operate in the triangle along side a prime Shaq you might have a point. Next.
If you hadn't already admitted that playing in the triangle offered more inside opportunities, you might have been on to something, sadly most of Shaq's teams ran some triangle sets while still affording his sidekick to explore his own offense elsewhere, ala Kobe whenever he decided to ditch the offense. The difference in how Shaq played was non-existent. And why limit Shaq's prime to 2000?



And those are??? Feel free to list them instead of bombarding me with ultra long responses and paraphrasing my rebuttals into 20 separate sub-arguments. Though I know thats a big part of your strategy. Sometimes it's more of a war of attrition debating you than anything else. Conciseness is your friend, not your enemy.
Vague analysis is vague. You treat supporting evidence like an enemy thats for sure.



What are these facts you keep referring to? They sound like your PERSONAL interpretation of your own PERSONAL statistical analysis to me.
LOL. Its my personal opinion that Wade was more efficient with Shaq on the court? No sonny, thats a cold hard fact right there. That this held up throughout their entire tenure together is too much evidence to simply chalk up to chance. Feel free to do so, just know that the facts dont support your theories.



Yes, you know more about advanced basketball stats than I do... That much is obvious. That doesn't mean that I don't know enough about the theories behind them to call you on your bs. I know the difference between a theory and a fact and that is enough to keep me from getting drawn into a solely statistical debate with you where you would have the upper hand. I have enough of a background in logic and debate to know what is fact and what is not fact. Those are my realms, and you sir are not stating any facts... They are your own PERSONAL theories and OPINOINS not matter how much flash you dress them up with... OPINIONS which I happen to disagree with... That is my right and I choose to exercise it. Show me something concrete and convincing and I will not hesitate to admit I am wrong. That I promise you. Just please do me the favor of being concise about it.
You've already admitted defeat when you opined that its not just Shaq's presence that could determine where a player gets his shots from, you also blamed the possible change in system. Apparently unaware of the implications, that by blaming either Shaq or the spread offense, you've only furthered the supporting evidence that a slashers game would thrive alongside the 2 controlled factors you've referenced.




Ten less minutes per game, thats ten more minutes for Wade to have reign to the hoop than Kobe had or what Lebron would have if you put him on those Laker teams.
Except that Wade became significantly less efficient without Shaq. Thats the point. If those minutes with Shaq made Wade more perimeter oriented, why was he so efficient with Shaq around? Did Wade's jumper become money when Shaq was by his side? Had Shaq been in his prime the enhanced influence would be more profound because he would have been able to play MORE minutes with Shaq, instead of having to carry the burden Kobe couldn't as Shaq declined.



Not to mention all the calls he got in the finals that led to the Heats victory. With 25 FT attempts in a deciding game and the opposing team the only the same amount and I'm sure any legit superstar could have gotten the job done.
What does this have to do with regular season data? Its completely irrelevant because what Im combating is your theories that Bron would have to do anything and that his production would dwindle to the rates you mentioned (which were superficial averages to begin with).


Now do you see why this is a terrible comparison?

Because you dont get it.



Again... Prime Shaq played 42.3 mpg in the playoffs during the Lakers 3 peat with a usage of 31.5. How does a high usage player like Lebron fit in?
Same way Wade fit in when he got to play with Shaq.



We saw what happened to Lebron in 2011 when he wasn't the main cog in the Heat machine. There is no evidence to support Lebron being an effective number 2 option...
He would be option 1B alongside Shaq, as opposed to sharing the ball with someone who has a far more overlap in his skillset. Shaq being a dominant post player would be far more conducive to his game than a player with his exact same style of play.


Especially to someone as ball dominant as prime Shaq... Who mainly operates in the post.
LMFAO, especially? The fact that he operates from the post is why Bron wouldn't have to worry about sharing ball handling duties with another perimeter player.


From what we have seen from Lebron over the years, he is most effective in a drive and kick offense where he plays heavy minutes and demands high usage. Can you now understand why I have a hard time believing that someone like this could co-exist with the most dominant inside out player in NBA history?
You've been saying this from the start and have failed to back it with any sort of logical rationale. No I dont understand how a post player with a proven track record for opening up the game for his teammates would somehow inhibit the greatest slasher of them all, particularly when Bron possesses a superior jumpshot than a guy like Wade, who just so happened to be MORE efficient alongside Shaq. It didn't matter if Wade was the 2nd option (like he was in Y1) or the first option (like he was in Y2), the results were the SAME. Wade was more efficient with SHAQ ON THE COURT.

Somehow you expect me to believe a rich mans version of the same player would do worse? LMFAO.




Really? Lol. Wade has seen a significant reduction in his stats across the board playing with Lebron. In essence, he brought down his game to mesh with Lebron.
They both did, thats the point. There is a far greater overlap in their games than there ever would be with someone like Shaq. We can see this in how much different Wade was able to perform in his minute with/without Shaq vs his minutes with/without Bron.

Here let me walk you through this:
In year 1, they were simply taking turns with the ball and playing their same games, they were still trying to figure out how to play with each other. As a result, whenever Wade got to play without Bron, his production reverted to the lines they always have, same thing whenever Bron got to play without Wade. Unlike the instantaneous relationship Wade had with Shaq, playing alongside Bron made him both less efficient and less prolific, ditto for Bron. This is the double whammy that you dont want to see in a partnership. Now the team was ALWAYS better with both of them on the floor, but its clear the 2 were not meshing well and the teams ultimate potential was stunted because of this.


The EXACT opposite happened when Wade partnered with Shaq. And its precisely because there was no overlap in skillsets. Sharing the ball with someone who shares your skillset is a far greater hindrance than pairing with a post player. TRY AGAIN.






Do you really think someone with prime Shaq's ego would have made those same adjustments so that Lebron could be the number one guy???
Yes because Bron would be much more willing to set him up than Kobe was. Bron would not have an infatuation with absurd shots that lead to a mutiny against Kobe, I could never imagine Phil Jackson wanting to trade LeBron for the likes of Jason Kidd and Shawn Marion (2 players with broken Jumpshots BTW) if he had Bron. Bron's a passer first and foremost.



Additionally, do you think Phil would have let that happen???
Phil would have loved playing Bron as his hyper version of Pippen with Shaq at the fulcrum of the triangle ala MJ. Bron would thrive on the attention Shaq drew, not from the perimeter (like Wade) but from the paint where entire defenses are compromised.


How so? Triangle ran inside out. What would Lebron's role be in the triangle? There is not point forward in that system.
OH WOW.

I honestly didn't know your ignorance was this boundless. You've got to be ******** me. Phil practically orgasms when you hear him talk about the benefits of having big pointgaurds. He should know, he had the 2nd greatest Point-Forward of all time directing his offense. LMFAO



He would either be a wing, or a weak-side forward and the role of playmaker is not solely designed for one player... rather the player who is open to make the assisting pass based on the defensive teams rotation which vary from play to play. Your way off on this one Chronz Lebron's style of play is not designed to run this system and thats exactly what would have been ran if you switched Kobe for Lebron... Wade's role with Shaq was entirely different and of little relevance to this debate and as I mentioned earlier, had his best seasons without Shaq.

Not only are you completely wrong about the point forward thing but you then have to explain to me why Phil would have wanted to trade Kobe for a much less versatile point man in Jason Kidd if he felt the triangle could not have afforded him opportunities to explore his offense in the manner that Kobe would. Wade's role with Shaq would have been the same in the triangle because Shaq operates in the same fashion and he was the number 1 option, he practically takes triangle sets everywhere he gos. The only minute differences come in the form of transition balance. Sorry but Wade's with the exact same player that Kobe got to play with is of far more importance to this debate than your pathetic/hallow glances at the Wade-Bron partnership.




Likewise I have seen no evidence to dismiss this theory.
Thats because your blind. Actually take the time to read what it is I've said and stop lying to defend yourself. LMFAO the triangle has no Point-Forwards, I've found my new sig of the year. Thanks for that bro...


Honestly Im not finishing this trash, I should have stopped right after that but I was hoping this would get better. You're not even attempting to be objective, if you're going to debate with me, PLZ do some research.

Chronz
10-03-2013, 02:18 PM
Woah - look at all the master-de-bation going on in here! This should be an Olympic sport. There's a slot open with wrestling out, right?

Should I finish dismantling his BS? I honestly gave up when I saw him utter the words:


What would Lebron's role be in the triangle? There is not point forward in that system.


I mean for **** sake man, its not like you have to go out of your way to research the differing players who have participated in various forms of the triangle, you dont even have to go way back either (1967 was the triangles first championship IIRC). How young/ignorant do you have to be to not remember that Pippen was the prototypical point-forward before Bron perfected the craft?

FlashBolt
10-03-2013, 02:21 PM
Shaq+Bron are two of the most dominating and athletically gifted players. We all know what Shaq can do.. Imagine adding LJ to that equation. You are only lying to yourself if you think it's a joke.

copper!
10-03-2013, 08:47 PM
LOL wow, a point forward has no spot in a triangle offense? You just slipped up there amos1er. You remind me of those people from the flat earth society who believe the earth is flat. Youll just come up with any garbage point that may sound like something plausible, even if it is completely incorrect. You will keep doing that and refuse to believe that LeBron might be better than Kobe. I don't know if you're actually convincing yourself or what. You slipped up when you made up one of your random knocks at LeBron. You forgot that Scottie Freaking Pippen excelled in the triangle.

Chronz
10-03-2013, 09:04 PM
LOL wow, a point forward has no spot in a triangle offense? You just slipped up there amos1er. You remind me of those people from the flat earth society who believe the earth is flat. Youll just come up with any garbage point that may sound like something plausible, even if it is completely incorrect. You will keep doing that and refuse to believe that LeBron might be better than Kobe. I don't know if you're actually convincing yourself or what. You slipped up when you made up one of your random knocks at LeBron. You forgot that Scottie Freaking Pippen excelled in the triangle.

http://youtu.be/pzmpy4wvRd0?t=3m10s

Phil laughs at so many of his theories.

Why would Phil target Jason Kidd if he felt a brilliant passer couldn't fit in his system. Keep in mind Kidd is a far worse shooter than Bron as well.

Supreme LA
10-03-2013, 09:17 PM
http://youtu.be/pzmpy4wvRd0?t=3m10s

Phil laughs at so many of his theories.

Why would Phil target Jason Kidd if he felt a brilliant passer couldn't fit in his system. Keep in mind Kidd is a far worse shooter than Bron as well.

Because Phil and everyone knows Kidd was an elite defender and had enough size to guard 2 guards. Let's not pretend like you know anything about what Phil was thinking.

You're just a loser on a CPU all day who overrates Lebron like everyone else does on PSD. Get a life.

copper!
10-03-2013, 09:19 PM
Because Phil and everyone knows Kidd was an elite defender and had enough size to guard 2 guards. Let's not pretend like you know anything about what Phil was thinking.

You're just a loser on a CPU all day who overrates Lebron like everyone else does on PSD. Get a life.

lol

koreancabbage
10-03-2013, 09:29 PM
Because Phil and everyone knows Kidd was an elite defender and had enough size to guard 2 guards. Let's not pretend like you know anything about what Phil was thinking.

You're just a loser on a CPU all day who overrates Lebron like everyone else does on PSD. Get a life.

if Lebron is overrated, i don't know what Kobe was when he was in hey-days. probably the most overrated basketball player of all time then. He was the one who was compared to Jordan since day 1.

ztilzer31
10-03-2013, 09:31 PM
I think that's a hard one to call. How long would Shaq and Lebron stay together? They'd win at least 3. Probably more like 5 or 6.

Lol at people saying LBJ and Shaq wouldn't be good together. That's just ridiculous, and literally makes no sense.

Also to whoever said they need shooter to surround LBJ... Uh what the **** are you talking about. The Lakers had tons of good shooters on that team.

Derek Fisher/Robert Horry/Isaiah Rider/Rick Fox

How are these not at least good 3 Pt shooters. There's more than that too probably. Those are just the ones off the top of my head lol.

People seriously don't understand how good that Lakers team was from top to bottom. Not just Shaq and Kobe.

Chronz
10-03-2013, 11:11 PM
Because Phil and everyone knows Kidd was an elite defender and had enough size to guard 2 guards. Let's not pretend like you know anything about what Phil was thinking.
Sorry but I know EXACTLY what Phil was thinking:
“Everyone says what a mature person this kid is,” I said. “He’s not mature at all.” The deal I had in mind was Kobe to Phoenix for Jason Kidd and Shawn Marion.”

He was going off on a tirade about the need to trade Kobe in 2004 when it reminded him of another instance in which he wanted to trade Kobe for those players in 2000. Both instances came about because there were serious issues Kobe has had with sharing the ball and creating for others. THATS WHY he wanted Kidd. Why would his defense be the differentiating factor when you Kobe stans incessantly label Kobe an elite defender?

So again, if Kobe is an elite defender with the TRUE size to guard SG's then why would Kidd's inferior size be so appealing? You kobephiles really dont have any semblance of common sense do you. The truth is, Phil wanted a mature/unselfish team player running his offense, similar to how Pippen unselfishly ran the triangle for MJ, yet retained the talent to lead the team when MJ was gone. Sound like anyone familiar?

But no, Kobephiles live in a world where up is down, Triangle offenses justify whatever bull you conjure and point-forwards have never played in said triangle.






You're just a loser on a CPU all day who overrates Lebron like everyone else does on PSD. Get a life.
Cool story bro but I've worked long and hard to be able to spend my free time however I wish. Lemme know if you ever want a history lesson of the team and players you blindly root for.

jerellh528
10-03-2013, 11:24 PM
I think that's a hard one to call. How long would Shaq and Lebron stay together? They'd win at least 3. Probably more like 5 or 6.

Lol at people saying LBJ and Shaq wouldn't be good together. That's just ridiculous, and literally makes no sense.

Also to whoever said they need shooter to surround LBJ... Uh what the **** are you talking about. The Lakers had tons of good shooters on that team.

Derek Fisher/Robert Horry/Isaiah Rider/Rick Fox

How are these not at least good 3 Pt shooters. There's more than that too probably. Those are just the ones off the top of my head lol.

People seriously don't understand how good that Lakers team was from top to bottom.Not just Shaq and Kobe.
Ehh, that lakers team beside shaq and Kobe was mediocre at best. Shaq, Kobe and Phil were the team. Everyone else was not very good. A few decent 3 point shooters and not much else.

Chronz
10-03-2013, 11:56 PM
Ehh, that lakers team beside shaq and Kobe was mediocre at best. Shaq, Kobe and Phil were the team. Everyone else was not very good. A few decent 3 point shooters and not much else.
Even if what you say is true (which I dont agree with but watevs), couldn't you argue they lost some of that talent due to the fact that Kobe was not a true SF and never really fit alongside Eddie Jones, a player who despite his faults was more talented than Glen Rice at the time but they had to make room for Kobe, so he was traded.

ElChinoLatino
10-04-2013, 12:16 AM
Because Phil and everyone knows Kidd was an elite defender and had enough size to guard 2 guards. Let's not pretend like you know anything about what Phil was thinking.

You're just a loser on a CPU all day who overrates Lebron like everyone else does on PSD. Get a life.

This is hilarious. Solid rebuttal by the way.

ElChinoLatino
10-04-2013, 12:28 AM
Vague analysis is vague. You treat supporting evidence like an enemy thats for sure.


Chronz, haven't you learned yet? You have to dumb it down in order for him to get it. It is truly fascinating how idiotic and ignorant people can sometimes be. I was wondering who the hell was delusionist since you kept mentioning him but after you said +1, it all came together. Btw nice sig, I couldn't believe he would trip up that bad.

ElChinoLatino
10-04-2013, 12:29 AM
7 or 8

5ass
10-04-2013, 01:11 AM
Lebron really wasnt even a really high USG player for Miami these play offs or regular season. 29.2% in the play offs for a player his caliber is kind of low. Kobe's last play off run? 36%.

jerellh528
10-04-2013, 03:11 AM
Lebron really wasnt even a really high USG player for Miami these play offs or regular season. 29.2% in the play offs for a player his caliber is kind of low. Kobe's last play off run? 36%.

So that means his team bails him out?

5ass
10-04-2013, 04:51 AM
So that means his team bails him out?

Thats what you concluded? It actually means Kobe is a ball hog.

It means Lebron's a team player. He had the lowest in USG in the play offs in his career but also probably the most efficient. Its definately not because he cant its because he plays with another ball dominant player. Lets not forget he grabbed 9 boards a game, 2 steals and played elite defense through out guarding the best offensive players at almost every position. He impacts the game in so many different ways.

xxplayerxx23
10-04-2013, 05:56 AM
Again anybody with the gift of these top players wins with shaq. It's that simple, 3 in a row, I may not like Lebron but he is one of the hardest workers in the game he would he better as he did and I think he wins 6 by the time he is 28 assuming shaq stays

ztilzer31
10-04-2013, 10:00 AM
Laker logic=

1. It's only okay to like free agents when they sign with the Lakers.

2. Only good player they've ever had is Kobe, and everyone else is average.

The funny thing is most of these Lakers fans don't even know **** about their own teams. It's extremely obvious. Guarantee I've watched more Lakers games than most of these trolls. The **** I hear you talk about your own team is straight wrong.

When are guys like Robert Horry, Derek Fisher, Rider, and Fox not great role players. Only in Laker land where reality does not exist, and Kobe one every finals he ever played in, and if he didn't it was everyone else's fault.

ElChinoLatino
10-04-2013, 12:04 PM
Laker logic=

1. It's only okay to like free agents when they sign with the Lakers.

2. Only good player they've ever had is Kobe, and everyone else is average.

The funny thing is most of these Lakers fans don't even know **** about their own teams. It's extremely obvious. Guarantee I've watched more Lakers games than most of these trolls. The **** I hear you talk about your own team is straight wrong.

When are guys like Robert Horry, Derek Fisher, Rider, and Fox not great role players. Only in Laker land where reality does not exist, and Kobe won every finals he ever played in, and if he didn't it was everyone else's fault.

That's the spoiled child that Los Angeles made out of Kobe.

copper!
10-04-2013, 03:12 PM
I don't think amos1er is coming back to this thread. It would be too embarrassing.

DR_1
10-04-2013, 06:20 PM
It's a shamed Lebron has PLAYED in a way tougher league than MJ or any other superstars combined, cause seriously Lebron would of made the 80's and 90's look like rookies from the d-league. And seriously? Imagine if he played along side Shaq, he would of already been the GOAT at age maybe 23. Anyone who says otherwise is a dummy or probably a homer and doesn't respect greatness. No joke. The guy is BEAST.

DO IT MITCH

:laugh2: Are you kidding me? The league hasn't been this soft and easy since the 60's :facepalm:

lakersfan01
10-04-2013, 07:12 PM
7

Hawkeye15
10-04-2013, 08:28 PM
:laugh2: Are you kidding me? The league hasn't been this soft and easy since the 60's :facepalm:

not really. That being said, the better scouting, coaching tools, and analytics nowadays would have been available to the player from yesterday, so the adjustment would be fine. But the league now is more developed on both ends.

It's called the evolution of sports everyone...

Hawkeye15
10-04-2013, 08:29 PM
If I had to guess? Probably 6. The Shaq years are a no brainer, any awesome wing wins those years. I also think they win 2004 (I don't think the toxicity happens), and the two they won with Bynum/Gasol.

My guess also follows along the lines that Shaq left the same year. Had he stayed, due to what I feel would have been better chemistry, that number could jump to 7.

Chronz
10-04-2013, 08:58 PM
:laugh2: Are you kidding me? The league hasn't been this soft and easy since the 60's :facepalm:
The 60's/70's were tougher than any other era if you're talking about raw physicality. So what are you basing "toughness" on?

ILLUSIONIST^248
10-04-2013, 08:58 PM
not really. That being said, the better scouting, coaching tools, and analytics nowadays would have been available to the player from yesterday, so the adjustment would be fine. But the league now is more developed on both ends.

It's called the evolution of sports everyone...Jordan had to face a much thougher era the Kobe- HAWKEYE

Lebron faced much better defense the Jordan- HAWKEYE

Choose a side.


If I had to guess? Probably 6. The Shaq years are a no brainer, any awesome wing wins those years. I also think they win 2004 (I don't think the toxicity happens), and the two they won with Bynum/Gasol.

My guess also follows along the lines that Shaq left the same year. Had he stayed, due to what I feel would have been better chemistry, that number could jump to 7.

:laugh2: Lebron winning 7 rings in 8 years,FAIL!

Chronz
10-04-2013, 09:00 PM
:laugh2: Lebron winning 7 rings in 8 years,FAIL!

Is he suppose to go undefeated?

ILLUSIONIST^248
10-04-2013, 09:02 PM
The 60's/70's were tougher than any other era if you're talking about raw physicality. So what are you basing "toughness" on?

Jordan would rip this era a new *******. Jordan would be a carrer 35/7/7 player in todays game. Lebron and other wing players are lucky to be in a watered down defensive league. You can't even touch a player today without getting a flagrant foul.

ILLUSIONIST^248
10-04-2013, 09:03 PM
Is he suppose to go undefeated?

No, He would have won 2-3 max. You Leboners overrate Lebron like crazy. The most overrated athlete of all time.

Chronz
10-04-2013, 09:34 PM
Jordan would rip this era a new *******. Jordan would be a carrer 35/7/7 player in todays game. Lebron and other wing players are lucky to be in a watered down defensive league. You can't even touch a player today without getting a flagrant foul.

And why would I trust your statistical insight given that you struggle with simple rebounding projections.


No, He would have won 2-3 max. You Leboners overrate Lebron like crazy. The most overrated athlete of all time.
LOL. Terrible!!

FlashBolt
10-04-2013, 10:35 PM
LJ would win 2-3 but Kobe wins 3... Because Kobe was better at which facet of the game? A team oriented player like LJ would thrive playing with a dominant force in Shaq. It's the absolute greatest formula to win rings. But it's fine. I feel everyone is just tiring out their fingers since you're a blatant troll.

jerellh528
10-04-2013, 10:46 PM
LJ would win 2-3 but Kobe wins 3... Because Kobe was better at which facet of the game? A team oriented player like LJ would thrive playing with a dominant force in Shaq. It's the absolute greatest formula to win rings. But it's fine. I feel everyone is just tiring out their fingers since you're a blatant troll.

Yeah like the lakers were supposed to win last year with dwight, or in 04 with malone, payton, shaq, and kobe. You can't say x+y=z. thats not how sports work, champ. Also lebron has never had to play second fiddle, but with prime shaq he would be second fiddle, so we dont know how selfish he actually is for sure, he averages more shots per game than kobe, career wise. And we do know his ego is huge!
http://www.albany.com/byesline/check%20my%20stats2.jpg

FlashBolt
10-04-2013, 11:12 PM
LJ would win 2-3 but Kobe wins 3... Because Kobe was better at which facet of the game? A team oriented player like LJ would thrive playing with a dominant force in Shaq. It's the absolute greatest formula to win rings. But it's fine. I feel everyone is just tiring out their fingers since you're a blatant troll.

Yeah like the lakers were supposed to win last year with dwight, or in 04 with malone, payton, shaq, and kobe. You can't say x+y=z. thats not how sports work, champ. Also lebron has never had to play second fiddle, but with prime shaq he would be second fiddle, so we dont know how selfish he actually is for sure, he averages more shots per game than kobe, career wise. And we do know his ego is huge!
http://www.albany.com/byesline/check%20my%20stats2.jpg

Woah, who said they were going to win last year? Just because your fanbase believed it, doesn't mean we all had the same belief. And yes, that's how it works. How many rings would Jordan and Shaq win? I bet it would work then, huh? Never mention Kobe alongside LJ in a team aspect with Shaq. Things aren't going to turn out well for Kobe. LJ isn't an egotistic freak like Jordan and Kobe are.

amos1er
10-05-2013, 04:56 AM
LOL so how do you want me to respond, vaguely or specifically assault your post. Of course its part of my strategy to break down what it is you're saying, Im quite capable of skimming over your entire post and summing up its main failures but I would much rather debate the way you just did now. By actually quoting what it is I've said, and I appreciate the effort, I really do, but you're not comprehending the numbers I showed you before.

Honestly, I would appreciate it if you got to the point and were more concise. As I said earlier... It's more of a war of attrition with you than anything else. But hey, everyone has their strategy and if you want to win debates simply because you can afford to invest more time than more power to you. Just keep on leaving 20 sub arguments for every response and eventually your opponents will tire out and you will win by default. Congrats.


Except it doesn't explain ****, because the numbers I showed you were far more specific. They were the numbers Wade put up WITH SHAQ ON THE COURT. Not overall. The minutes Wade played without Shaq saw his efficiency decrease.

Shaq does draw double teams, I'll give you that. And could for brief stretches open the floor up for a number 2 option. But could Wade really be a high volume number one option with Shaq around the way all the Lebronites are claiming Lebron would be if he were paired with Shaq? No way, Lebron would have to be the number 2 option and we have never seen him in that roll before except for 2011 and we all saw know that worked out. His precious stats would take a hit for sure and he would be relegated to a significantly lesser usage and fg attempts. There is no data around to confer how Lebron would perform as a number 2 option aside from 2011 which was a supreme failure.


So tell me, why would Wade getting to the hole more make him less efficient if thats what he does best? Are you implying that Wade's jumper becomes money when Shaq is on the court? It really doesn't matter because at the end of the day, he shot 53% with Shaq on the court, thats much higher than his season average.

53% as a number 2 option. Less fg attempts, less playmaking responsibility, less shot creation, naturally fg% will go up. Both Wade an Kobe were able to accept those rolls, could Lebron's ego have let him? If 2011 is our only example than that does not bode well for him.


You also ignore the year Shaq was closer to his prime form, you know, the year he was runner up for MVP and also more productive. Why ignore that season when its of more importance?

They didn't win the championship that year so I felt that comparison isn't even worth mentioning. Thought we were debating championships...

Also, that was Wade's second year in the league, most prospective NBA superstars see a huge jump in stats from their rookie to sophmore years. You'll have a hard time linking that sort of progression to the presence of Shaq when nearly 100% of NBA superstars saw equal or even larger statistical jumps in those years.


You cant combat SPECIFIC analysis with vague estimations bro, we KNOW EXACTLY how many minutes Wade and Shaq were together so why deal with the whole " it could easily explain more opportunity for Wade to get to the hole." when its clear that he was LESS efficient without Shaq on the court.

Sure, Shaq drew double teams, but you have to agree if Wade was the number one option and was in charge of creating the brunt of the Heat's offense, he wouldn't have been able to maintain that efficiency. I just can't see Lebron and Shaq co-existing and Lebron conceding the team leader position over all that easy. Has Lebron ever has never had a usage of less than 28.1, and that was his rookie year. Kobe's usage average usage during the 3peat was 29.8. Lebron's average usage from age 21-23 (same ages as Kobe during 3peat) was 32.7 and he was a shell of the player he was in his prime. He didn't start playing good D until he was 24 while Kobe was playing top notch D at age 21. Lebron was a terrible closer up until last season when he was 27. He chocked in the finals twice, once at age 22 and once at age 26 while Kobe was handing his business at age 21 and hitting clutch shot after clutch shot during game 4 of the finals against Indiana when Shaq fouled out. Lebron couldn't even handle his **** in the finals when he was 26 and had one of the best supporting casts in NBA history. He would have wet him self at age 21 trying to close out a finals game with big daddy Shaq on the bench. Just going off historic data to make my point the way that you did with all your Wade comparisons. Don't even get me started on his jump shot at that age. Do you really believe a 21-23 year old Lebron would have been able to win a ring with Shaq? He took such a long time to develop key fundamentals like defense, a consistent J, clutch plays, BBIQ, drive, and killer instinct. The raw talent was always there, but he just didn't have the stuff Kobe had at that age.

Also, You have to realize, Shaq was on a mission those years in Miami and he had matured a lot. He wasn't at odds with Wade the way he was with Kobe in 2000-2002. Shaq wasn't as concerned with being "the man" as he was back in LA. He just wanted to win a ring without Kobe. Completely different politics and the minutes and usage were down dramatically. I know your going to say that it doesn't matter as you only accounting for when they were on the floor together, but it does matter in that Shaq wasn't as ball dominant as he was in the triangle under Phil and more willing to share the burden and glory. Essentially, his ego was nullified by his vendetta. Would have been nice if he had that attitude back in LA in the 2003 and 2004 seasons. It took him getting ousted and a chip on his shoulder to finally play that way. Sucks for Lakers fans but great for Miami.



Essentially your rebuttal boils down to this:
More opportunities for Wade to get to the hole = less efficient Wade????

Huh??? Naturally when someone is the number one option like Wade was back in 2009 and 2010 they are going to have more of a burden and be less efficient as they will likely have more room for error and have to take more bail out shots. His TS% didn't really take all that big of a hit, so I can't see how you are attributing such a higher efficiency to Shaq anyways.


Ill get to the rest of your trash later, taking my dog for a walk.

Finally decided to come up for air eh.

amos1er
10-05-2013, 05:00 AM
LJ would win 2-3 but Kobe wins 3... Because Kobe was better at which facet of the game? A team oriented player like LJ would thrive playing with a dominant force in Shaq. It's the absolute greatest formula to win rings. But it's fine. I feel everyone is just tiring out their fingers since you're a blatant troll.

Lebron at age 21-23 was a shell of the player he is today. Remember, we aren't taking the Lebron of the past two seasons... We are taking a young Lebron same age as Kobe was during the 3peat who was a choke artist, lacked a consistent jump shot, was defensively raw, and had no drive and killer instinct to speak of up until recent. Mad props for stepping his game up now, but back then it would not have done him any good. Lebron would have wet his pants when big daddy Shaq fouled out in game 4 of the 2000 finals against Indiana. He couldn't get it done against San Antonio at age 22 and again against Dallas at age 26 with on of the best supporting casts of all time... What on earth makes you think he had the stuff rings are made of back at age 21 when he was such a failure in his more senior years? Makes absolutely zero sense to me.

Chronz
10-05-2013, 05:14 AM
http://youtu.be/pzmpy4wvRd0?t=3m10s

LMFAO

You've been exposed breh, why would anyone care about your "insight" when you've proven utterly incapable of remembering players who played as recently as 2004 and that you cant even get simple rebounding projections right.

That concise enough for ya?

amos1er
10-05-2013, 05:16 AM
Even better question... How many rings would prime Kobe have on the Heat in place of Lebron? Age 26-28. My guess... 3. No choke job in 2011 and the following two years were easy money. Just look at how a prime Kobe (age 28) fared against a younger better Spurs team compared to how Lebron nearly had a repeat choke job against them this past year and had to get bailed out by Wade in game 4 and Allen in game 6. Kobe had far better offensive numbers and less help from his teammates and dispatched them in only 5 games. Kobe easily wins it all with the Heat this year and last against the lime green Thunder. If only Lebron had a pulse in 2011, the Heat win that one too for sure. Heck, even a prime Vince Carter could have gotten the job done.

amos1er
10-05-2013, 05:24 AM
http://youtu.be/pzmpy4wvRd0?t=3m10s

LMFAO

You've been exposed breh, why would anyone care about your "insight" when you've proven utterly incapable of remembering players who played as recently as 2004 and that you cant even get simple rebounding projections right.

That concise enough for ya?

So your going to hold me accountable to a simple play on words eh. Guess a guy like you will take any victory he can get.

Obviously I was referring to the point forward style Lebron is known for, not Scottie. Unless of course you are admitting that Lebron would have to be a Scottie Pippen type player under Shaq for him to have a shot at winning. Hopefully he is not expected to perform in any clutch situation of course because we all know how that is going to turn out.

Speaking of forgetting things, didn't you just recently forget what Pistons team your hero T-Mac played against in 2003 (his best year)? I believe you confused them with the 2002 Pistons or something. Perhaps I will check the archives and verify this and add a sig of my own. :)

Chronz
10-05-2013, 06:12 AM
So your going to hold me accountable to a simple play on words eh. Guess a guy like you will take any victory he can get.
Yes Im going to hold you accountable if you don't understand proper NBA terminology. Live with your foolish mistake.



Obviously I was referring to the point forward style Lebron is known for, not Scottie. Unless of course you are admitting that Lebron would have to be a Scottie Pippen type player under Shaq for him to have a shot at winning. Hopefully he is not expected to perform in any clutch situation of course because we all know how that is going to turn out.
LMFAO, why stop at Scottie Pippen? Why not say Bron will play like Paul Pressey while your at it. The style LeBron is known for is a superior version of a POINTFORWARD.



Speaking of forgetting things, didn't you just recently forget what Pistons team your hero T-Mac played against in 2003 (his best year)? I believe you confused them with the 2002 Pistons or something. Perhaps I will check the archives and verify this and add a sig of my own. :)
Plz do. Tmac didn't face the Pistons in 2002 and even if he had, they were STILL the far better defensive team playing in a far superior defensive league. You're really going to compare being off by a single year to your ignorance of NBA terminology? LMFAO

Wake me up when you get to the dedicated post, and spare me the attrition talk, nobody is forcing you to respond immediately, by all means take as long as you want, its fairly obvious you're not capable of responding on a whim without sounding ignorant. I love how you ignored the rebounding part of my post, guess thats why you would rather be "concise" aka selective in what you debate. I on the other hand have no issue thoroughly dismantling your hilarious attempts at a rebuttal.

Chronz
10-05-2013, 06:13 AM
Even better question... How many rings would prime Kobe have on the Heat in place of Lebron? Age 26-28. My guess... 3. No choke job in 2011 and the following two years were easy money. Just look at how a prime Kobe (age 28) fared against a younger better Spurs team compared to how Lebron nearly had a repeat choke job against them this past year and had to get bailed out by Wade in game 4 and Allen in game 6. Kobe had far better offensive numbers and less help from his teammates and dispatched them in only 5 games. Kobe easily wins it all with the Heat this year and last against the lime green Thunder. If only Lebron had a pulse in 2011, the Heat win that one too for sure. Heck, even a prime Vince Carter could have gotten the job done.
What are you basing this one on?

Chronz
10-05-2013, 06:14 AM
PS. You dont have to link to the thread that contains the quote, if you click on the "view post" icon, it takes you there regardless.

amos1er
10-05-2013, 06:22 AM
PS. You dont have to link to the thread that contains the quote, if you click on the "view post" icon, it takes you there regardless.

I know... Just remember you getting owned up in that thread pretty good, so I wanted to add the extra emphasis.

amos1er
10-05-2013, 06:24 AM
I don't think amos1er is coming back to this thread. It would be too embarrassing.

Think again.

Don't you go have to wipe Chronz's brow or something.

Chronz
10-05-2013, 06:25 AM
I know... Just remember you getting owned up in that thread pretty good, so I wanted to add the extra emphasis.

Coming from the guy who stopped debating Tmac's superior passing over Kobe, this means nothing.

Your the type of guy who doesn't even know what the debate at hand is. This is more than just about chips, this is about how Bron would fare with Shaq. Cmon man, KEEP UP. SLOW DOWN. THINK BEFORE YOU POST

ldawg
10-05-2013, 06:52 AM
How would we ever know? How many rings would Tmac and Carter won playing together like the next MJ Pippen? How many rings Nash would win if he ever played with Shaq? How many rings Lebron would win if he ever played with Shaq? If Harden played with with Kd and West Brook how many rings would they have gotten? How many rings many rings Howard would have won if he played with Carter? How many rings Stockton would have won if he ever played with Karl Malone? Would Kobe and Duncan win 10 rings if they played together? How many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop? 1 2 3 the world my never know. Its all opinions it don't mean nothing. No facts here.

amos1er
10-05-2013, 06:52 AM
Coming from the guy who stopped debating Tmac's superior passing over Kobe, this means nothing.

Your the type of guy who doesn't even know what the debate at hand is. This is more than just about chips, this is about how Bron would fare with Shaq. Cmon man, KEEP UP. SLOW DOWN. THINK BEFORE YOU POST

21-23 year old Lebron was hardly the closer Shaq needed. Couldn't be relied on to hit clutch shots or free throws with the game on the line. Thats what Shaq needed the most as he was a horrible free throw shooter and could not be relied on down the stretch. Lebron was too scared of the moment and too much of poor free throw shooter to step into that roll. He would have been a second option for sure and his jump shot was too streaky at the time to be nearly as effective as Kobe was. His post plays and drives to the hoop as well as his overall field goal attempts would have been limited by at least 20% due to Shaq's presence. He would have really needed a consistent jump shot to be effective in the roll Kobe played in order to be nearly as dominant of a one-two that both him and Shaq were together. You have to take into account the fact that Kobe's threat from the perimeter freed Shaq up as well. Lebron would not have given Shaq that same benefit at all.

Thought the main point of this thread was how many rings Lebron would have had if he played on the Lakers in place of Kobe? That should take precedent overall. The most important part of meshing together is winning after all.

amos1er
10-05-2013, 06:57 AM
Coming from the guy who stopped debating Tmac's superior passing over Kobe, this means nothing.

I'll get to that in time. It's 4 in the morning.

ldawg
10-05-2013, 07:08 AM
If Kobe played with Duncan they would have ten rings each by now

Chronz
10-05-2013, 02:57 PM
I didn't want to respond to these until you got to my beefy post but since it seems you are heeding my advice and actually thinking it through, I will oblige. Just plz respond to the main post before getting to these. BTW, I hope you're having as much fun as I am with all this. Its been a really slow off-season and this is the most basketball I've been able to examine in a long time.


21-23 year old Lebron was hardly the closer Shaq needed. Couldn't be relied on to hit clutch shots or free throws with the game on the line.
This is myth, surely you're not so naive to believe the last shot taken in a game is the only way to be clutch. Bron has been one of the most clutch players over his career if you consider the totality of close games with time winding down in the 4th. You're confused because you see Kobe take a million shots and make a few that happen to come in spectacular fashion, neglecting to mention that had he not missed so many to begin with, the Lakers would never be in that position in the first place. I envision alot of games closed out long before then considering Bron is the superior player throughout the entirety of a close games, so long as you're not dealing with the final possession. Luckily for him, the Lakers had several clutch players, including Shaq.

Lemme ask you something, and be completely honest, would the Lakers have been better off with an immature kid who wasn't ready by Y1, wasn't even considered the best bench player in the league by Y2 and barely made All-NBA 3rd team with sub All-Star level production by Y3, or an NBA ready phenom who became a regular fixture on the All-NBA team as early as his 2nd year? If Kobe were half the team player that Bron was or half as easy to get along with, Shaq never leaves and the title window remains open, not only long before 2000 (given Brons superior NBA ready game) but well beyond 04. That counts for something here.



Thats what Shaq needed the most as he was a horrible free throw shooter and could not be relied on down the stretch. Lebron was too scared of the moment and too much of poor free throw shooter to step into that roll. He would have been a second option for sure and his jump shot was too streaky at the time to be nearly as effective as Kobe was.
What Shaq needed most was someone who wouldn't put himself ahead of the team, someone who could carry the club respectably in his absence when he took his routine 15 games off (as opposed to Kobe who saw a championship level team completely degrade when Shaq wasn't around), someone who wasn't so selfish that it made Phil dream of Kidd/Pippen. Wade had an even worse jumper and never had any problems outproducing Kobe when he got to play with an old Shaq. Didn't matter if Wade was the 2nd option or the 1st, he was outproducing Kobe in both roles.



His post plays and drives to the hoop as well as his overall field goal attempts would have been limited by at least 20% due to Shaq's presence.
Says the worlds worst statistician that cant even project something as simple as rebounding. LMFAO. SHOW ME ANY KIND OF SUPPORTING EVIDENCE BECAUSE THE FACTS ARE, SHAQ MAKES HIS TEAMMATES MORE EFFICIENT.


He would have really needed a consistent jump shot to be effective in the roll Kobe played in order to be nearly as dominant of a one-two that both him and Shaq were together.
Look I know you refuse to see the light but you cannot ignore that if what you were saying were true then Phil would have never wanted to trade Kobe for the likes of Jason Kidd. A guy who was famously dubbed Ason Kidd for his lack of a J. The truth is, you dont need to play like Kobe to thrive with Shaq, particularly when your game is built around passing. The truth is, Kobe could be gone for near entirety of a Finals game and the team would still win. Now Im not saying they would have won the title without Kobe, but the mere fact that Kobe could play 9 minutes in a FINALS GAME and STILL WIN, shows you how easy he had it in comparison to Bron, whos Cleveland teams utterly fell apart without him. Yet Im sure you want to compare the situations as if they were somehow equal.



You have to take into account the fact that Kobe's threat from the perimeter freed Shaq up as well. Lebron would not have given Shaq that same benefit at all.
Show me how I would take that into account and why it would have such a high influence on Shaq's efficiency. The truth is, Shaq (and the Lakers) maintained their championship caliber winning%/efficiency when Kobe wasn't around. In fact, Kobe getting injured is probably what saved the Lakers season, as it proved to him (for the time being anyways) the importance of trusting your teammates, something Bron has never had an issue with. Now ask Kobe to do the same without Shaq and you have yourself a sub.500 team. Brons passing and superior slashing skills would make much better use of the openings Shaq provided.



Thought the main point of this thread was how many rings Lebron would have had if he played on the Lakers in place of Kobe?
Which wouldn't be relegated to ONLY the years Kobe was able to win (while being on a team where his impact was of secondary importance) and only the years Wade was able to win. If this were just about winning, you wouldn't have given those laughable/superficial projection averages. The point being made is that because Bron was NBA ready far sooner than Kobe, and because he filled a position of need (as opposed to being unable to play alongside the incumbent All-Star at SG), the title window for the Lakers would be much wider. In this hypothetical, how Bron and Shaq would interact is what will ultimately determine whether the Lakers could replicate if not improve on that success. All caught up?



That should take precedent overall. The most important part of meshing together is winning after all.

LMFAO. But we dont know if they would win without projecting how they would mesh. We determine that by looking at similar situations and how your theories hold up to reality. You've already admitted that both the triangle and Shaq could be responsible for Kobe having more inside attempts, guess whats Brons strength? Guess why Wade and his broken jumpshot was more effective with Shaq in the lineup. Guess why Phil wanted to trade Kobe for Ason Kidd? Heres a hint, the jumpshot isn't the sole barometer for success in the triangle or with Shaq. We have too much evidence that gos against this woefully unsubstantiated theory.


SHOW ME ANY OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE OF ANY KIND. Stop throwing random %'s with no substance.

hugepatsfan
10-05-2013, 03:11 PM
I don't think Shaq and Lebron is an ideal pairing based on skill sets but they're both so much better than everyone else that it doesn't matter. Yeah, ideally Lebron would be paired with a big that can step out of the lane and knock down a jumper but he would still be great with Shaq. It's pretty stupid to suggest otherwise.

Put Lebron in the triangle and he probably projects more the Pippen role than the MJ/Kobe role. Not to say he wouldn't still get 25 points a night but he wouldn't get the 30 that Kobe or MJ did in the system. He could but that's not how PJ would use him.

mngopher35
10-05-2013, 03:33 PM
I don't think Shaq and Lebron is an ideal pairing based on skill sets but they're both so much better than everyone else that it doesn't matter. Yeah, ideally Lebron would be paired with a big that can step out of the lane and knock down a jumper but he would still be great with Shaq. It's pretty stupid to suggest otherwise.

I agree. I would point out that Shaq and Lebron fit much better together than Wade and Lebron (I beleive chronz or someone has made points of this already). Or that Shaq in his prime with young Lebron is better than declining shaq with young wade. I really don't see how this pairing wouldn't end up very successful especially with 8 years together. I could see something like 5 titles in those years.


Put Lebron in the triangle and he probably projects more the Pippen role than the MJ/Kobe role. Not to say he wouldn't still get 25 points a night but he wouldn't get the 30 that Kobe or MJ did in the system. He could but that's not how PJ would use him.

I agree that he would see a likely decrease in total points. He would also see an increase in assists and probably efficiency. Not to mention the benefit that PJ would bring compared to having Mike Brown.

Chronz
10-05-2013, 03:49 PM
Even better question... How many rings would prime Kobe have on the Heat in place of Lebron? Age 26-28. My guess... 3. No choke job in 2011 and the following two years were easy money.
Kobe would have the same problem that both he and Wade had with Eddie Jones, positional overlap. With Bosh getting injured in Y2, they lack the size to even make the Finals much less beat such a talented team. Y3 with Wade completely hobbled, Kobe is forced to carry a bigger playmaking burden which we already know makes him measurably more turnover prone and fails to make the Finals again.



Just look at how a prime Kobe (age 28) fared against a younger better Spurs team compared to how Lebron nearly had a repeat choke job against them this past year and had to get bailed out by Wade in game 4 and Allen in game 6.
Actually, with Wade hobbled he was the biggest reason(liability) that series went the distance (see how the Heat made that run with him on the bench and how throughout the entirety of the Finals, the Heat had a negative differential IIRC). He came up big when it mattered and was somewhat vital in winning but he didn't play like a superstar either.

And the Spurs were not better in 08. Manu was injured and unlike the 2013 incarnation of the Spurs, they didn't have the young wings (Green/Leonard) to replace him .

I dont base this solely on subjective evaluations either, the objective evidence backs this completely:

2008 Spurs
Offensive Efficiency: 107.2 (Ranked 15th)
Defensive Efficiency: 101.8 (Ranked 3rd)

2013 Spurs:
Offensive Efficiency: 108.3 (Ranked 7th)
Defensive Efficiency: 101.6 (Ranked 3rd)

Those are the regular season results, which were reliant on Manu playing a career high 31.1MPG (is there any wonder why he couldn't hold up) and each member of the big3 playing heavy minutes. So on 1 hand, you have a team that put up inferior numbers and relied more heavily on their staters and on a hobbled player come post season, while the Spurs (without really trying to) outpaced those marks.
Come playoffs, the primary lineups are of more importance (this is why the Spurs were always better than their record and why Pop never went full bore for HCA, unlike D'Antoni) so the fact that they rode their Big3 harder and still failed to outpace their later selves isn't a good start, I cant think of any logical way their units were more effective understanding this fact, but still lets take a look at the efficiency of their top3 most used lineups.

2008: 5-Man units - PTS Differential
B. Bowen | T. Duncan | M. Finley | F. Oberto | T. Parker (+3.9PTS)
B. Bowen | T. Duncan | M. Finley | M. Ginobili | T. Parker (+10.1PTS)
B. Bowen | T. Duncan | M. Ginobili | F. Oberto | T. Parker (+4.1PTS)




2013: 5-Man units - PTS Differential
T. Duncan | D. Green | K. Leonard | T. Parker | T. Splitter (+19PTS)
B. Diaw | T. Duncan | D. Green | K. Leonard | T. Parker (11.4PTS)
B. Diaw | D. Green | K. Leonard | T. Parker | T. Splitter (+15.9PTS)



Obviously, these lineups aren't rigid, there are several different lineups you could look at but if the overall is in favor of 2013, the only logical way to say the team was better despite inferior production and health is if the most used lineups for 2008 were at least objectively comparable, instead they were far inferior as a unit. I would understand if it was at least close but this is a massive chasm. It explains why the Spurs were able to win despite their Big-3 playing so few minutes. They had a massively stacked team that kept them fresh and most importantly, HEALTHY come playoffs.


So what do you really have going for you in this argument? Blind glances at a BBR page and the idea that youth is the only means to improve a team? Sounds like you dont know much about the NBA if you think its all it comes down to. Team chemistry is still important. The Lakers have a history of displaying this fact. Ask Phil Jackson which team he thinks could compete with his Dynastic Bulls, he'll tell you it was the Wilt/Jerry led Lakers, and its not the younger version it was the older 33-Win in a row version. But hey, keep using unsubstantiated buzz words if you like, Ill take objective measures that back what my eyes were telling me.




Kobe had far better offensive numbers and less help from his teammates and dispatched them in only 5 games.
I cringe at the sight of you attempting to back your opinion with objective measures when you've proven utterly fallible in that regard. Its even more ridiculous to see you claim "far better". Are we ignoring overall efficiency? The Spurs scored at an elite rate vs Miami but struggled to crack even 70pts in one game vs the Lakers, lemme guess, that was all Kobe too. How silly of me, Kobe was the reason Duncan shot 42% with a 98 O-RTG. Kobe had less help yet wasn't called upon to log the minutes that Bron had to for his team to survive. Yes, that makes perfect sense.

The truth is they were equally productive offensively, if not a slight edge to Kobe, but on the board/defensively, Bron was more important and had to carry a monstrous minutes load.





Kobe easily wins it all with the Heat this year and last against the lime green Thunder.
Nah, prolly doesn't make the finals, hell he and Wade prolly come to fisticuffs and dont get along at all.


If only Lebron had a pulse in 2011, the Heat win that one too for sure. Heck, even a prime Vince Carter could have gotten the job done.
So it is about winning and not projecting huh. Blind glances ftw.

Chronz
10-05-2013, 04:08 PM
I agree. I would point out that Shaq and Lebron fit much better together than Wade and Lebron (I beleive chronz or someone has made points of this already). Or that Shaq in his prime with young Lebron is better than declining shaq with young wade. I really don't see how this pairing wouldn't end up very successful especially with 8 years together. I could see something like 5 titles in those years.



I agree that he would see a likely decrease in total points. He would also see an increase in assists and probably efficiency. Not to mention the benefit that PJ would bring compared to having Mike Brown.
Superficial averages would be different but who gives a ****, efficiency and chemistry are what win games. And we've seen no evidence that having Shaq around would force players into less efficient shots, in fact the exact opposite has happened to each and every one of his sidekicks when they played alongside him.

And lets not kid ourselves, Bron and Shaq would get along famously, there wouldn't be the same internal strife that prevented LA from sustaining their dominance. I could never imagine LeBron ignoring Phil's pleas to reign in his offense the way Kobe did when he allowed his anger (a possible manifestation of his rape trial) to prevent him from adapting in 2004.

Chronz
10-05-2013, 04:17 PM
Honestly, I would appreciate it if you got to the point and were more concise.
You fail to grasp the point when I take my sweet time explaining it to you, what makes you think you would understand if I dismissed most of your post and simply surmised my thought. But I will get to the point here if you wish, you dont understand the debate at hand. Here let me give you the SAME blatant example of your ignorance to the points raised.



Also, that was Wade's second year in the league, most prospective NBA superstars see a huge jump in stats from their rookie to sophmore years. You'll have a hard time linking that sort of progression to the presence of Shaq when nearly 100% of NBA superstars saw equal or even larger statistical jumps in those years.
For the millionth time now, Im not showing you the progression from one year to the next, Im showing you the level of play FROM THE SAME YEAR. Its how he played with Shaq on the court vs his seasonal average. The only link to be made is the productive difference between the 2 samples.

For **** sakes man, re-read my post and TRY AGAIN. SLOW DOWN. THINK . THEN POST.

Chronz
10-05-2013, 04:20 PM
If Kobe played with Duncan they would have ten rings each by now

Does Kobe take a massive paycut in San Antonio and how long before he gets mad that hes not the MVP of his own team? Hell, do Kobe's agents and marketing partners even endorse a career start in San Antonio? They sure as hell didn't want him to play in NJ (IIRC).

jerellh528
10-05-2013, 05:26 PM
Lebron would win zero rings in place of Kobe. Any other answer is pure speculation.

b@llhog24
10-05-2013, 05:33 PM
Lebron would win zero rings in place of Kobe. Any other answer is pure speculation.

Never stopped you from answering any pro Kobe question in the comparisons forum.

Chronz
10-05-2013, 05:47 PM
Lebron would win zero rings in place of Kobe. Any other answer is pure speculation.
Thats horrible speculation. Zero? LOL, even though the Lakers were a team that was capable of winning a Finals game with Kobe playing like 7 minutes, cmon man, they at least win 2 (at least 3 IMO given Kobe's inefficiency in 02). Its not as if Kobe was playing at an unfathomable level during their first run and the Lakers were so far better than anyone in 2001 that even if Bron somehow ****s up their chemistry more than Kobe used to, they dont go from sweeping the West to losing it entirely because of the switch.

koreancabbage
10-05-2013, 07:03 PM
Lebron would win zero rings in place of Kobe. Any other answer is pure speculation.

thats also pure speculation. i don't even know why you are answering like Amos1ler.

jerellh528
10-05-2013, 07:38 PM
thats also pure speculation. i don't even know why you are answering like Amos1ler.

Because Lebron has won zero rings as a laker. I'm not a fan of what if style scenarios. They are only speculation. There are an infinite amount of scenarios you can place any player in to make them look better or worse in an arbitrary situation.

koreancabbage
10-05-2013, 11:42 PM
21-23 year old Lebron was hardly the closer Shaq needed. Couldn't be relied on to hit clutch shots or free throws with the game on the line. Thats what Shaq needed the most as he was a horrible free throw shooter and could not be relied on down the stretch. Lebron was too scared of the moment and too much of poor free throw shooter to step into that roll. He would have been a second option for sure and his jump shot was too streaky at the time to be nearly as effective as Kobe was. His post plays and drives to the hoop as well as his overall field goal attempts would have been limited by at least 20% due to Shaq's presence. He would have really needed a consistent jump shot to be effective in the roll Kobe played in order to be nearly as dominant of a one-two that both him and Shaq were together. You have to take into account the fact that Kobe's threat from the perimeter freed Shaq up as well. Lebron would not have given Shaq that same benefit at all.

Thought the main point of this thread was how many rings Lebron would have had if he played on the Lakers in place of Kobe? That should take precedent overall. The most important part of meshing together is winning after all.

what three point threat from Kobe? Kobe's three point shooting in the first three championship years were WORST than Lebron's three point shooting in Lebron's first 3 seasons. (1999-2002 vs 2003-2006) - closest years to compare with Shaq still inthe picture

- if anything, if Shaq was around, I think Lebron would have performed much better and not be under the spot light as he did when he entered the bright lights.
- i mean if he is a better player with better players around him (i.e. Wade and Bosh) than what makes you think he could be a better with prime Shaq and whole bunch of veterans around him????

Lebron would have mopped the floor and would be the greater Laker now than what Kobe was at their point in their careers as a Laker. and Shaq might have stayed a few more years as well.

koreancabbage
10-05-2013, 11:43 PM
Because Lebron has won zero rings as a laker. I'm not a fan of what if style scenarios. They are only speculation. There are an infinite amount of scenarios you can place any player in to make them look better or worse in an arbitrary situation.

its true. but someone asked the picture so we're gonna place some conclusions somewhere. LOL

mngopher35
10-06-2013, 03:08 AM
Superficial averages would be different but who gives a ****, efficiency and chemistry are what win games. And we've seen no evidence that having Shaq around would force players into less efficient shots, in fact the exact opposite has happened to each and every one of his sidekicks when they played alongside him.

And lets not kid ourselves, Bron and Shaq would get along famously, there wouldn't be the same internal strife that prevented LA from sustaining their dominance. I could never imagine LeBron ignoring Phil's pleas to reign in his offense the way Kobe did when he allowed his anger (a possible manifestation of his rape trial) to prevent him from adapting in 2004.

I think they would get along as well. I also think that they would fit nicely together with phil even though I do understand some concerns from others. Shaq and Lebron are both smart and I think they could play off each other very well (lebron cutting for shaq and shaq finding gaps when lebron drives). Really would be fun to watch.

jerellh528
10-06-2013, 03:10 AM
I think they would get along as well. I also think that they would fit nicely together with phil even though I do understand some concerns from others. Shaq and Lebron are both smart and I think they could play off each other very well (lebron cutting for shaq and shaq finding gaps when lebron drives). Really would be fun to watch.

You don't know that, Lebron has never had to play second fiddle, he would have to with shaq. We don't know how that would effect him but we do know Lebron had a pretty big ego.

Chronz
10-06-2013, 06:51 AM
You don't know that, Lebron has never had to play second fiddle, he would have to with shaq. We don't know how that would effect him but we do know Lebron had a pretty big ego.

Why would playing second fiddle be a problem when Bron already defers too much for some peoples liking? Brons ego isn't as damaging as Kobe's so whats your point? Kobe was the type of guy who made a HOF coach want to trade him for the likes of Jason Kidd.

mngopher35
10-06-2013, 12:18 PM
You don't know that, Lebron has never had to play second fiddle, he would have to with shaq. We don't know how that would effect him but we do know Lebron had a pretty big ego.

You are right I don't know that. It is possible that they wouldn't, we will never know. I am just guessing based of of what I have seen, as this is a speculation thread.

I think that Shaq and Lebron would have gotten along because they liked to joke and have fun (especially young lebron) but were still serious on the court . I think that Lebron being a natural facilitator (almost to a fault sometimes) and Shaq being Shaq that they would have chemistry on the court. Not to mention Shaq's passing ability and Lebron's cutting. With Phil Jackson as their coach and a very solid supporting cast I just don't think they would have many problems.

Bookey
10-06-2013, 12:29 PM
The correct answer is zero

Chronz
10-06-2013, 01:16 PM
The correct answer is zero

The most ignorant answer is zero. Even if you feel he wont approximate Kobe's success, to say they never win with so many tries and an even bigger title window.... cmon now

ILLUSIONIST^248
10-06-2013, 01:34 PM
21-23 year old Lebron was hardly the closer Shaq needed. Couldn't be relied on to hit clutch shots or free throws with the game on the line. Thats what Shaq needed the most as he was a horrible free throw shooter and could not be relied on down the stretch. Lebron was too scared of the moment and too much of poor free throw shooter to step into that roll. He would have been a second option for sure and his jump shot was too streaky at the time to be nearly as effective as Kobe was. His post plays and drives to the hoop as well as his overall field goal attempts would have been limited by at least 20% due to Shaq's presence. He would have really needed a consistent jump shot to be effective in the roll Kobe played in order to be nearly as dominant of a one-two that both him and Shaq were together. You have to take into account the fact that Kobe's threat from the perimeter freed Shaq up as well. Lebron would not have given Shaq that same benefit at all.

Thought the main point of this thread was how many rings Lebron would have had if he played on the Lakers in place of Kobe? That should take precedent overall. The most important part of meshing together is winning after all.
FC got wrecked in that thread in your sig.

The correct answer is zero

Anywhere from 0-3.

Jamiecballer
10-06-2013, 01:49 PM
some of you guys are making this far more difficult than it needs to be. Lebron is the better player and infinitely better teammate. so while we cannot know for sure, smart money is >= 3.

5ass
10-06-2013, 02:13 PM
FC got wrecked in that thread in your sig.


Anywhere from 0-3.
So basically less than Kobe, because Kobe in his prime is better than Lebron? Care to argue ur opinion for once instead of +1s? I doubt you can.

Chronz
10-06-2013, 02:40 PM
FC got wrecked in that thread in your sig.


Anywhere from 0-3.
So basically less than Kobe, because Kobe in his prime is better than Lebron? Care to argue ur opinion for once instead of +1s? I doubt you can.
+ 1

ElChinoLatino
10-06-2013, 03:56 PM
+ 1

+1

copper!
10-06-2013, 05:45 PM
http://i.imgur.com/6sylQYF.jpg

ElChinoLatino
10-06-2013, 05:47 PM
http://i.imgur.com/6sylQYF.jpg

Kobe being clutch is the biggest myth since the Loch Ness Monster.

Hawkeye15
10-06-2013, 06:15 PM
http://i.imgur.com/6sylQYF.jpg

as above stated, Kobe's clutchness in closing moments is beyond overrated. I remember the study shown over the regular season where Kobe hit around 31% with under 24 second to go, one possession game, and his teams offensive efficiency dropped over 20 points per 100 possessions in those moments.

JWorthy42
10-06-2013, 06:33 PM
:horse:

Hawkeye15
10-06-2013, 06:35 PM
:horse:

ugh, seriously. I always come into these threads wanting to be done, and stupidly post something.

I just don't care honestly. My mind is made up between the two, and nobody here is changing it. Who cares..

JWorthy42
10-06-2013, 10:36 PM
ugh, seriously. I always come into these threads wanting to be done, and stupidly post something.

I just don't care honestly. My mind is made up between the two, and nobody here is changing it. Who cares..

I joined PSD recently, but I've been reading and lurking on the website for a while. And let me tell you that this type of thread comes out literally every month.

Chronz
10-08-2013, 02:19 PM
11:19, 10-8-13

Calling it.


But to add to the conversation, how many more years do the Lakers legitimately compete if Bron and his NBA ready game and friendly nature keep Shaq in town?

ILLUSIONIST^248
10-08-2013, 03:53 PM
11:19, 10-8-13

Calling it.


But to add to the conversation, how many more years do the Lakers legitimately compete if Bron and his NBA ready game and friendly nature keep Shaq in town?

-1

Chronz
10-08-2013, 04:57 PM
-1

So your on record for saying the Lakers title window would decrease by 1 year by adding a player who was All-NBA caliber by Y2 vs someone who wasn't even considered the best bench player in the L?

FlashBolt
10-09-2013, 02:17 AM
The misconception of Kobe being a clutch player is the result of Kobe literally having to take so many of these "clutch" shots because he usually puts his team in such a predicament where they have to rely on late game heroics. All these Kobe fans forget that their man-crush doesn't get ridiculed for missing clutch shots; even though it clearly shows on a stat sheet that Kobe is one of the most UNclutch player. It's going to be an experience reading amosers and Illusionist's response(s) to this thread while ignoring Cooper's 1 punch KO because they have no legitimate encounter.

ztilzer31
10-09-2013, 10:42 PM
So your on record for saying the Lakers title window would decrease by 1 year by adding a player who was All-NBA caliber by Y2 vs someone who wasn't even considered the best bench player in the L?

You act like this breaks his top 5 for dumbest comments on PSD.

mightybosstone
10-09-2013, 10:52 PM
More than Kobe. /thread

mightybosstone
10-09-2013, 10:56 PM
11:19, 10-8-13

Calling it.


But to add to the conversation, how many more years do the Lakers legitimately compete if Bron and his NBA ready game and friendly nature keep Shaq in town?

This is a great point. Combine Lebron's unselfishness, insane playmaking and a personality that would have worked great with Shaq, and no way does that duo split up. I think Shaq would have played out his career in LA as long as he and the Lakers agreed on his salary. And I certainly think that duo would have won more than three rings together assuming Lebron was drafted the same year as Kobe.

JordansBulls
10-10-2013, 12:00 AM
Does Lebron become the player he becomes playing with Shaq from the get go?

amos1er
10-10-2013, 12:02 AM
Does Lebron become the player he becomes playing with Shaq from the get go?

You're alive!!!

JordansBulls
10-10-2013, 12:16 AM
So does 1997 Kobe correspond to 2004 Lebron, 1998 Kobe to 2005 Lebron, etc?

amos1er
10-10-2013, 12:19 AM
So does 1997 Kobe correspond to 2004 Lebron, 1998 Kobe to 2005 Lebron, etc?

I would say that it's most fair to compare them starting at their rookie years. Unlike most of these guys who want to take Lebron's best years and match them to Shaq's best years. Kobe never had the luxury so why should Lebron in this comparison.

Supreme LA
10-10-2013, 04:50 AM
as above stated, Kobe's clutchness in closing moments is beyond overrated. I remember the study shown over the regular season where Kobe hit around 31% with under 24 second to go, one possession game, and his teams offensive efficiency dropped over 20 points per 100 possessions in those moments.

Now what exactly do you think these stats tell you?

I believe that these stats are telling you that Lebron is a more efficient shooter in the clutch? You couldn't be more wrong. Kobe is still the biggest offense threat when it comes down to 2 seconds on the clock where he is still the only absolute threat from any space on the floor and from any range. Kobe is the best difficult-shot maker of all-time. I can see an argument to be made that Lebron is always looking to find the open man. Everyone who watches basketball knows Kobe had never been shy about taking double & tripled teamed clutch shot. All those numbers say is that Lebron passes out of difficult shot (low % shots) at any moment of the game including crunch time.

amos1er
10-10-2013, 07:06 AM
Now what exactly do you think these stats tell you?

I believe that these stats are telling you that Lebron is a more efficient shooter in the clutch? You couldn't be more wrong. Kobe is still the biggest offense threat when it comes down to 2 seconds on the clock where he is still the only absolute threat from any space on the floor and from any range. Kobe is the best difficult-shot maker of all-time. I can see an argument to be made that Lebron is always looking to find the open man. Everyone who watches basketball knows Kobe had never been shy about taking double & tripled teamed clutch shot. All those numbers say is that Lebron passes out of difficult shot (low % shots) at any moment of the game including crunch time.

Excellent post!

Good to know that someone on here can actually think outside the box. These guys will just keep brining up the same two reference points over and over again that they most likely copy and pasted from some other Kobe hater site. That and the advanced stats they copy and paste from basketballreference.com are all they really have. They think if they post the same nonsense over and over again, it will stick. Luckily, there are people who actually understand the game of basketball and have the necessary critical thinking skills to see right past this sort of stale regurgitated BS. Kobe does what it takes to win, regardless of how it effects his individual stat sheet.

Chronz
10-10-2013, 12:15 PM
You act like this breaks his top 5 for dumbest comments on PSD.
Im always on the lookout for sig worthy material, but you right. Him thinking the 2nd best bench player in the league is better than an All-NBA caliber athlete would be par for the course for him.

ILLUSIONIST^248
10-10-2013, 12:20 PM
I would say that it's most fair to compare them starting at their rookie years. Unlike most of these guys who want to take Lebron's best years and match them to Shaq's best years. Kobe never had the luxury so why should Lebron in this comparison.


Excellent post!

Good to know that someone on here can actually think outside the box. These guys will just keep brining up the same two reference points over and over again that they most likely copy and pasted from some other Kobe hater site. That and the advanced stats they copy and paste from basketballreference.com are all they really have. They think if they post the same nonsense over and over again, it will stick. Luckily, there are people who actually understand the game of basketball and have the necessary critical thinking skills to see right past this sort of stale regurgitated BS. Kobe does what it takes to win, regardless of how it effects his individual stat sheet.

Welcome to Lebronsportsdaily.

Chronz
10-10-2013, 12:54 PM
I would say that it's most fair to compare them starting at their rookie years. Unlike most of these guys who want to take Lebron's best years and match them to Shaq's best years. Kobe never had the luxury so why should Lebron in this comparison.
Most of these guys? Like who?



So does 1997 Kobe correspond to 2004 Lebron, 1998 Kobe to 2005 Lebron, etc?Thats exactly right. So instead of having an egotistical loner who alienates teammates and isn't even considered the best bench player in the league. You have a fun loving goof with an NBA ready game from day 1 and All-NBA game (With stellar production to boot) by Y2. Not only that, but because Bron is bigger than Kobe, they never have to trade Eddie Jones for the defensively inept Glen Rice, who declined so fast that Phil decided it best to let him leave rather than extend him (despite Cuban blasting the Lakers for doing so).

koreancabbage
10-10-2013, 01:05 PM
Now what exactly do you think these stats tell you?

I believe that these stats are telling you that Lebron is a more efficient shooter in the clutch? You couldn't be more wrong. Kobe is still the biggest offense threat when it comes down to 2 seconds on the clock where he is still the only absolute threat from any space on the floor and from any range. Kobe is the best difficult-shot maker of all-time. I can see an argument to be made that Lebron is always looking to find the open man. Everyone who watches basketball knows Kobe had never been shy about taking double & tripled teamed clutch shot. All those numbers say is that Lebron passes out of difficult shot (low % shots) at any moment of the game including crunch time.

prove it.

koreancabbage
10-10-2013, 01:10 PM
Excellent post!

Good to know that someone on here can actually think outside the box. These guys will just keep brining up the same two reference points over and over again that they most likely copy and pasted from some other Kobe hater site. That and the advanced stats they copy and paste from basketballreference.com are all they really have. They think if they post the same nonsense over and over again, it will stick. Luckily, there are people who actually understand the game of basketball and have the necessary critical thinking skills to see right past this sort of stale regurgitated BS. Kobe does what it takes to win, regardless of how it effects his individual stat sheet.

obviously you don't have the critical thinking. this "regurgitated BS" is actually facts- on paper and you can't comprehend it. you don't know **** about basketball. Kobe does kills his team most of time from winning. Lebron makes the right basketball plays. i.e. finding the open man. as you might hate that he does do that, its a basketball play.

shooting over 2/3 defenders is poor basketball judgement when there are 2-3 players open.

you see - you don't know **** about basketball. but Kobe does make the occasional great shot. but poor basketball play.

Chronz
10-10-2013, 02:51 PM
You know what makes the Shaq+Bron pairing so deadly. The kind of system/players you need to limit Bron are typically not the kind of combos that can limit Shaq. Like Sabonis back in the day (All 7"3 300lbs of him) did the best at defending Shaq before the catch, slowed him down long enough for the swarm to come help on the pick up. Such a defense against Bron would only serve to open up driving lanes and in motion jumpers.

The guy who did the best job at shading Bron was Tyson Chandler when he got to completely ignore the offensive zero that was Joel Anthony, it was largely a result of his length and agility. But you couldn't expect a twig to defend a brute, thats why it took the league to go smaller/leaner for TC to become the natural Center and DPOY he became. Back in the day a guy like him would be BBQ chicken for Shaq.

DR_1
10-10-2013, 02:56 PM
The 60's/70's were tougher than any other era if you're talking about raw physicality. So what are you basing "toughness" on?

I ment since pre-1960's, sorry, should have made that clearer.

Chronz
10-10-2013, 03:22 PM
I ment since pre-1960's, sorry, should have made that clearer.

What about the days when players played in a cage while fans threw bottles and cigars at them? The NBA has never been THAT tough. Right?

DR_1
10-10-2013, 03:25 PM
What about the days when players played in a cage while fans threw bottles and cigars at them? The NBA has never been THAT tough. Right?

No, guys were MUCH smaller back then. But yes, the style of play was tougher. If you gave them access to modern technology they'd push today's softies around like they were kids.

FlashBolt
10-11-2013, 04:13 AM
Does anyone find it cute and amusing that amoser and illusionist always agree with each other regardless of what they post? It's kind of funny because amoser seems more intellectual than illusionist, yet illusionist is always there to agree with his pointless argument of +1.




What about the days when players played in a cage while fans threw bottles and cigars at them? The NBA has never been THAT tough. Right?

No, guys were MUCH smaller back then. But yes, the style of play was tougher. If you gave them access to modern technology they'd push today's softies around like they were kids.

This is based off what? Society changes and we aren't taught to rough someone up because we don't like them. Your ideals are very biased and doesn't have a ground for an argument. How would you know they would succeed if they had modern technology? Any legitimate sources to back that information up?

JordansBulls
10-18-2013, 01:15 AM
The correct answer is zero

2000 Shaq had a top 3 peak all time.