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5ass
09-21-2013, 02:19 AM
IMO its Stephen Curry, but there are a lot of other options.

DDynO
09-21-2013, 02:25 AM
Lebron James

raider_fan
09-21-2013, 02:34 AM
Derrick rose if healthy

RiceOnTheRun
09-21-2013, 03:17 AM
'Skilled' is too wide a term. Someone could have the most rebounding skill, or the most dribbling skill but it's like comparing apples to oranges.

If we're talking about the player with the biggest and most versatile skillset, it's got to be Lebron.

BALLER R
09-21-2013, 03:57 AM
Skilled doesn't really mean your the best player in the league. I don't think Lebron is the most skilled player. I would go with a guy like Kyrie Irving.

LAKERS4LIFE!!
09-21-2013, 04:09 AM
Most skilled player to me means that if everyone in the league had the same body(as in height, wingspan, athleticism, etc.) then who would dominate the most and my answer is Kobe Bryant. Chris Paul is a very close 2nd.

tredigs
09-21-2013, 04:24 AM
Cp3, Curry, TP, Kobe, Dirk, Pau, Duncan, Pierce and Manu are some of the quick ones that come to mind. Gotta go Cp3 though.

Supreme LA
09-21-2013, 04:33 AM
CP3, Kobe, and Tim Duncan are the most fundamentally skilled. Kyrie is really skilled as well for being so young. Of course if you count raw power and athleticism as skill then you can't leave out Lebron.

naps
09-21-2013, 04:51 AM
Define skill here. It's a broad term. If you don't specify anything then it's LeBron hands down. He's the most skilled player today, his has skills at every facet of the game unlike any other.

tredigs
09-21-2013, 05:15 AM
Define skill here. It's a broad term. If you don't specify anything then it's LeBron hands down. He's the most skilled player today, his has skills at every facet of the game unlike any other.

I don't know about that at all, I'd say it's his speed + power that puts him above the rest, not his skill set (which is obviously still elite). But he can't handle, pass or shoot like Cp3. And he doesn't have footwork like Kobe, for example. Overall I'd say Kobe's skill set is a about a half tier higher than Lebron's.

Supreme LA
09-21-2013, 05:24 AM
Define skill here. It's a broad term. If you don't specify anything then it's LeBron hands down. He's the most skilled player today, his has skills at every facet of the game unlike any other.

That's not true at all. I really think everyone's opinion in skill is quite different. Lebron doesn't possess the ball handling of CP3, the footwork, post game, and shot repertoire of Kobe, nor does he have anything to close to Tim Duncan's low post moves and face up to the basket moves within 15 ft.

Lebron is an extremely skilled passer and that I won't argue. I just believe his power and athleticism can very easily fool someone who knows nothing about basketball into thinking it's all skill when it's obviously 80% power and athleticism.

BALLER R
09-21-2013, 09:45 AM
That's not true at all. I really think everyone's opinion in skill is quite different. Lebron doesn't possess the ball handling of CP3, the footwork, post game, and shot repertoire of Kobe, nor does he have anything to close to Tim Duncan's low post moves and face up to the basket moves within 15 ft.

Lebron is an extremely skilled passer and that I won't argue. I just believe his power and athleticism can very easily fool someone who knows nothing about basketball into thinking it's all skill when it's obviously 80% power and athleticism.

This is true. Lebron is built like a line backer. When he gets to the rim he's just going straight to the rim and over powering defenders. He isn't being crafty with his moves. You just can't body him.

Ebbs
09-21-2013, 10:15 AM
Marc Gasol, Chris Paul, Dirk Nowitzki

Are my top 3

Tony_Starks
09-21-2013, 10:27 AM
Other than Kobe I'd say toss up between KD, Kyrie or D Rose. Really leaning toward Kyrie though because his range is better than Rose and obviously he's a better passer than KD...

Dade County
09-21-2013, 10:33 AM
Lbj, Wade, Cp3, Kobe, Timmy, & T Parker.

ManningToTyree
09-21-2013, 10:37 AM
Kobe/Duncan

beasted86
09-21-2013, 11:44 AM
Its LeBron James.

Chris Paul has literally no post skills whatsoever, zero shot blocking skills, and mediocre rebounding skills.

Kobe Bryant has always had mediocre at best outside shooting skills, and most of his other skills have declined with age to an overall level below LeBron. The same with all other candidates who are 33+. The OP's question was about today, not 2-5 years ago. The answer would have changed if that was the case.

Tony_Starks
09-21-2013, 01:15 PM
Kobe/Duncan

Don't know how I forgot about the big fundamental. Would you put Melo in the most skilled discussion? Offensively he definitely is but his laziness on D and his tendency to let the ball stick in his hands kinda kills it....

Chronz
09-21-2013, 02:14 PM
Michael Beasley. They may not be valuable skills but the dude can score and miss effortlessly

Minimal
09-21-2013, 02:15 PM
LeBron & Durant

Chronz
09-21-2013, 02:20 PM
Chris Paul has literally no post skills whatsoever,
What do you mean, CP3 loves posting up whenever he has a chance, which is rare but he has alot of moves down there. Even if he has a bigger player he will occasionally post up and revert to a face up move (which is still a post move) to the basket or to create space for that ridiculously silky jumper.

smiddy012
09-21-2013, 02:34 PM
Its clearly Lebron at #1 IMO. He may be a freak athletically, but he's the best passer and playmaker in the league. And most importantly, he's developed his post-up and long range games. Then you got Durant, Dirk, & Duncan. CP3 and TP could squeak in too, haven't watched them play enough the last few years though.

beasted86
09-21-2013, 02:37 PM
What do you mean, CP3 loves posting up whenever he has a chance, which is rare but he has alot of moves down there. Even if he has a bigger player he will occasionally post up and revert to a face up move (which is still a post move) to the basket or to create space for that ridiculously silky jumper.

If he has the skills he doesn't use them enough to establish it as a strength in his game. Wade often posts up players while giving up a few inches easy, so height shouldn't be a problem.

jerellh528
09-21-2013, 02:40 PM
1.kobe
2.duncan
3.paul
4.melo
5.gasol

MyDRoseLikeDeng
09-21-2013, 03:04 PM
Idk what the definition of "skilled" is, but if it means the guy that does the most with the least god given ability, its got to be Steph Curry. People dont really realize how many hours this dude has spent getting better, I know that everyone in the league works at their games, but this guy has just steadily improved every season. Not to mention he also has the heart of a lion

ChickenSouvlaki
09-21-2013, 03:06 PM
To me its easily Steve Nash. Some people say Lebron? You give Steve Nash Lebron's body and its game over.

beasted86
09-21-2013, 03:30 PM
To me its easily Steve Nash. Some people say Lebron? You give Steve Nash Lebron's body and its game over.

He would still be a horrible defender. He has plain poor instincts and fundamentals.

Pablonovi
09-21-2013, 03:36 PM
To me its easily Steve Nash. Some people say Lebron? You give Steve Nash Lebron's body and its game over.

Hey ChickenSouvlaki,
Offensively a very serious case could be made.
Defensively (seemingly close to 50% of the game, no?) NO WAY.

So, overall, NO.

Why don't we give everybody Shaq's body, or Wilt's (imo, THE greatest athlete of the 1900s): where would that get our convo?

Pablonovi
09-21-2013, 03:39 PM
1.kobe
2.duncan
3.paul
4.melo
5.gasol

Hey jeryllh528,
Replace Melo (a zilch of a defender, no?) with
LeBron (arguably the greatest defender in the game today; and with "pretty-decent" "O" skills; and I'm with you.
Gasol, which? Pau's got him on O; Marc's got him on D. A dose of double-Gasol would be dynamite here.

Pablonovi
09-21-2013, 03:41 PM
Curry?
Is he anything special at all on D? If not, then FAIL.

tredigs
09-21-2013, 03:51 PM
Its clearly Lebron at #1 IMO. He may be a freak athletically, but he's the best passer and playmaker in the league. And most importantly, he's developed his post-up and long range games. Then you got Durant, Dirk, & Duncan. CP3 and TP could squeak in too, haven't watched them play enough the last few years though.

Haha, Lebron the best passer in the game?? MIGHT be stretching just a bit there. I realize you're not a big NBA guy, but this just isn't the case. For a forward? Sure, easily. Not otherwise.

ChickenSouvlaki
09-21-2013, 03:55 PM
Hey ChickenSouvlaki,
Offensively a very serious case could be made.
Defensively (seemingly close to 50% of the game, no?) NO WAY.

So, overall, NO.

Why don't we give everybody Shaq's body, or Wilt's (imo, THE greatest athlete of the 1900s): where would that get our convo?

Sure, but you could argue that Nash is terrible at defence largely because he is a poor athlete by NBA standards. In the same breath, you could argue that Lebron is a great defender largely because he is one of the greatest athletes of all time.

Chronz
09-21-2013, 04:23 PM
If he has the skills he doesn't use them enough to establish it as a strength in his game. Wade often posts up players while giving up a few inches easy, so height shouldn't be a problem.

Thats what Im saying, there is no IF, he DOES have the skills he just lacks the physique to just overpower everyone. I guess Im differentiating skill from talent so I can see your argument, I just dont understand the Wade comp. Hes longer than most 2's so that height doesn't hurt much and he plays alongside some serious floor spacers in the front court, CP3 plays with 2 traditional bigs with limited shooting range.

ILLUSIONIST^248
09-21-2013, 04:54 PM
Lebron James

Wrong, put Lebron skills into Wades body and he's not even top ten. Lebron is great becuase he has a physical monster.

NetsPaint
09-21-2013, 04:58 PM
Vince Carter is up there.

DDynO
09-21-2013, 05:19 PM
Wrong, put Lebron skills into Wades body and he's not even top ten. Lebron is great becuase he has a physical monster.

You put Lebron James in Lebron James' body and he can play the 1-4 effectively. Guard the 1-4 effectively. He's efficient from the post, mid-range and the 3. He can run your offense and anchor the D. I say that's pretty skilled to me.

Chronz
09-21-2013, 05:24 PM
Lebron is great becuase he has a physical monster.

Do you know where he keeps it?

5ass
09-21-2013, 05:31 PM
Do you know where he keeps it?

In the cage beside his short neck giraffe.

Tony_Starks
09-21-2013, 05:32 PM
You put Lebron James in Lebron James' body and he can play the 1-4 effectively. Guard the 1-4 effectively. He's efficient from the post, mid-range and the 3. He can run your offense and anchor the D. I say that's pretty skilled to me.

There's a difference between being able to play/ defend 1-4, and doing it "effectively." On certain matchups he can get away with it for stretches but lets not act like he defends players like Kyrie Irving or Lamarcus Aldridge all game long every night. He's a good defender and very versatile you talk like he's the second coming of Bruce Bowen.....

NetsPaint
09-21-2013, 05:46 PM
I'm not saying LeBron is the most skilled player or anything, but I never agreed much with the athleticism and/or physical attributes argument for a lot of players. These are professional athletes, almost every great player benefits from it greatly. People said LeBron couldn't shoot for years which is ludicrous. I don't think he's the most skilled, but he's a lot more skilled than people are making him out to be. Jordan always benefited from athleticism, even at 40. Tell me one great player that didn't benefit from having great athleticism and/or having a lot of physical attributes.

If LeBron loses his great athleticism and his physical attributes doesn't help him much anymore, then it would be true that he wasn't very skilled, but do you think he will ever go down that much as a player?

ANKUSH
09-21-2013, 05:56 PM
Other than Kobe I'd say toss up between KD, Kyrie or D Rose. Really leaning toward Kyrie though because his range is better than Rose and obviously he's a better passer than KD...

I totally agree. However, I think the gap between Kobe and the rest of the league is humongous. He is by and far the MOST SKILLED PLAYER OF ALL TIME. His foot work has been talked up greatly and with due respect. Yet, his rebounding and assist are fantstic historically for a SG. An underrated passer that has the ability to break down defenses and find the open man. His D has taken a dive in the past couple of seasons, but the skill to achieve it is still there (well, we'll see after the injury).....

Hawkeye15
09-21-2013, 06:11 PM
I love how so many give all the credit to LeBron for being exponentially the best player in the game the last 5 years on his size and athletic ability alone. He is one of the most skilled players in history.

My answer is probably CP3, with LeBron right behind him.

Hawkeye15
09-21-2013, 06:12 PM
I'm not saying LeBron is the most skilled player or anything, but I never agreed much with the athleticism and/or physical attributes argument for a lot of players. These are professional athletes, almost every great player benefits from it greatly. People said LeBron couldn't shoot for years which is ludicrous. I don't think he's the most skilled, but he's a lot more skilled than people are making him out to be. Jordan always benefited from athleticism, even at 40. Tell me one great player that didn't benefit from having great athleticism and/or having a lot of physical attributes.

If LeBron loses his great athleticism and his physical attributes doesn't help him much anymore, then it would be true that he wasn't very skilled, but do you think he will ever go down that much as a player?

By every possible shooting metric, LeBron was one of the best shooters in the game last year. Even as he loses his athletic ability, he will be a totally dominant player due to his size, and skill level. You don't forget how to shoot, dribble, and pass when you get older.

tredigs
09-21-2013, 07:06 PM
By every possible shooting metric, LeBron was one of the best shooters in the game last year. Even as he loses his athletic ability, he will be a totally dominant player due to his size, and skill level. You don't forget how to shoot, dribble, and pass when you get older.

Well, not free throws haha. I'd call him an elite mid-range shooter, a middling foul shooter and a very intelligent + solid 3pt shooter. But let's be real, he's nowhere near the best in the game shooting wise. That's reserved for the Dirk, Nash, Calderon, Durant, Curry tier (not including specialists here). This is a guy who still gets Rondo-lite treatment at times (even in the finals), and it does offer him many more uncontested jumpers then those guys would ever bother dreaming of. Clearly a large part of that is due to that freak speed/strength that allows him to blow by defenders if they get too in on him.

But agreed for the most part that barring injury he'll be elite well into his 30's.

ThuglifeJ
09-21-2013, 07:20 PM
Vince Carter is up there.

Hes up there still but no one watches him anymore. I think the fact he can do anything on offense, dribble well, shoot great, pass great, post up, shoot 3s, drive, pick n roll, chuck fadeaways or set shots equally, fancy layups/dunks just define the word skill.

but honestly this is such an annoying topic because people view the term skill differently. Heck people are saying Lebron is the most skilled.. that just goes to show. Lebron's a physical beast that's a main reason why he's so good.. hes still skilled at everything just not thee most.

I think now that Kobe is fading (a bit) I'd say Chris Paul even though I cant stand the guy. He's insanely skilled though. The crossovers the passing the shooting stroke, all elite. He's good because of his skill.


when I think skill I think a lot of their repitiour (however it's spelled). And please dont give me a list of Bron's repitiour. I understand his game. You do know Ginobili is probably more skilled than Lebron. His bag of tricks is bar none

ThuglifeJ
09-21-2013, 07:24 PM
By every possible shooting metric, LeBron was one of the best shooters in the game last year. Even as he loses his athletic ability, he will be a totally dominant player due to his size, and skill level. You don't forget how to shoot, dribble, and pass when you get older.

Are you serious? It's not a knock on LeBron to be so good because of his athleticism/size. We don't knock Shaq for that.. Stop being sucha fanboy. The reason why Shaq and Bron are so good is mainly their size. Lebron is able to shoot because everyone has to sag off him due to his drive.


If you threw Lebron's skillset in Reddick's body, we would not have a Lebron now would we.

tredigs
09-21-2013, 07:28 PM
Hes up there still but no one watches him anymore. I think the fact he can do anything on offense, dribble well, shoot great, pass great, post up, shoot 3s, drive, pick n roll, chuck fadeaways or set shots equally, fancy layups/dunks just define the word skill.

but honestly this is such an annoying topic because people view the term skill differently. Heck people are saying Lebron is the most skilled.. that just goes to show. Lebron's a physical beast that's a main reason why he's so good.. hes still skilled at everything just not thee most.

I think now that Kobe is fading (a bit) I'd say Chris Paul even though I cant stand the guy. He's insanely skilled though. The crossovers the passing the shooting stroke, all elite. He's good because of his skill.


when I think skill I think a lot of their repitiour (however it's spelled). And please dont give me a list of Bron's repitiour. I understand his game. You do know Ginobili is probably more skilled than Lebron. His bag of tricks is bar none

I'd agree with that for sure.

jerellh528
09-21-2013, 07:39 PM
Haha, c'mon guys, seriously? Saying Lebron is the most skilled in the nba is pretty darn silly. That's like saying Dwight is the most skilled center. Just because you're currently the best player, doesn't mean most skilled.

Pablonovi
09-21-2013, 07:51 PM
Haha, c'mon guys, seriously? Saying Lebron is the most skilled in the nba is pretty darn silly. That's like saying Dwight is the most skilled center. Just because you're currently the best player, doesn't mean most skilled.

Hey jerellh528,
Theoretically, abstractly that's true; but when we get down to real people and real facts ...'
In the NBA last year, LeBron was both a Top 5 Defensive player and Top 5 Offensive Player. No one can be that good just because of their physique; likewise, no one can be that good if they have large holes in their game. Everyway I look at it, LeBron has high-level skills in multiple-facets of the game. Kobe could very well have THE best footwork and some other top skills; but he no longer displays/has top level defensive skills. Paul is way up there too; as are most of the proposed candidates in this thread.

imo LeBron IS in the top 5 in the entire League in skills.

NetsPaint
09-21-2013, 07:51 PM
Are you serious? It's not a knock on LeBron to be so good because of his athleticism/size. We don't knock Shaq for that.. Stop being sucha fanboy. The reason why Shaq and Bron are so good is mainly their size. Lebron is able to shoot because everyone has to sag off him due to his drive.


If you threw Lebron's skillset in Reddick's body, we would not have a Lebron now would we.
And would Jordan dominate the same in Reddick's body?

The Rondo/sagging off argument is a good point though.

amos1er
09-21-2013, 07:53 PM
Easily Kobe Bryant. He has the best footwork by far and more moves than anyone. The only thing that holds him back is his age. It's his skill set that allows him to still be a top five player in this league at age 35. CP3 is second IMO.

NetsPaint
09-21-2013, 07:53 PM
Kobe is up there with people who carry the crap out of the ball. Blatant as heck.

amos1er
09-21-2013, 07:57 PM
Haha, c'mon guys, seriously? Saying Lebron is the most skilled in the nba is pretty darn silly. That's like saying Dwight is the most skilled center. Just because you're currently the best player, doesn't mean most skilled.

Yup, Lebron is all athleticism and size. He shoots a good 3pt% only because of his ability to drive on anyone, therefore they have to give him a lot of space that no other player in the league will have. He also has 5 3 point shooters on the floor who can all shoot well above 40% and two superstars (one in the top ten and one in the top 20) that allow him to spread the floor. Essentially, Lebron's talents are mostly god given and manipulated by the team around him. Dude cannot even come close to being on Kobe's level in terms of creating his own shot. Guys like Kobe, CP3, and even D-Wade are far above him in terms of skill's. Heck, even Steve Nash has more skills than he does.

amos1er
09-21-2013, 07:57 PM
Kobe is up there with people who carry the crap out of the ball. Blatant as heck.

Two words for you... Crab dribble. :eyebrow:

amos1er
09-21-2013, 07:59 PM
Are you serious? It's not a knock on LeBron to be so good because of his athleticism/size. We don't knock Shaq for that.. Stop being sucha fanboy. The reason why Shaq and Bron are so good is mainly their size. Lebron is able to shoot because everyone has to sag off him due to his drive.


If you threw Lebron's skillset in Reddick's body, we would not have a Lebron now would we.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

NetsPaint
09-21-2013, 08:13 PM
Two words for you... Crab dribble. :eyebrow:
Two words for you...I agree:eyebrow:.

Pablonovi
09-21-2013, 08:46 PM
Yup, Lebron is all athleticism and size. He shoots a good 3pt% only because of his ability to drive on anyone, therefore they have to give him a lot of space that no other player in the league will have. He also has 5 3 point shooters on the floor who can all shoot well above 40% and two superstars (one in the top ten and one in the top 20) that allow him to spread the floor. Essentially, Lebron's talents are mostly god given and manipulated by the team around him. Dude cannot even come close to being on Kobe's level in terms of creating his own shot. Guys like Kobe, CP3, and even D-Wade are far above him in terms of skill's. Heck, even Steve Nash has more skills than he does.

Hey amos1er,
I think you're as perceptive about Kobe as you are NOT about LeBron.
If LeBron were wide open and couldn't hit the 3, you might have a point; but he does hit it; and well, and might improve even more. Also, not every super-gifted athlete performs to that level day after day; it takes lots of practice, commitment (mental and physical).

Seriously, after all, he is a decidedly better and more complete player than he was 10 years ago when he came into the League. Might he have done any hard work that has contributed to his major improvement?

Is there anything LeBron can do to satisfy you enough that you'd credit him for his (non-God-Given) skills?
----------
Could this be a symptom of the "generational thing"; meaning a certain, almost natural resistance to accepting the "next generation's" ascension to the top heights? I was not always immune to such a "bias". It was hard, at first, for me to accept the next generation's greats after growing up on Wilt, West, "O", Baylor and Russell. But I got "the hang of it"; and each generation's rise causes me less trouble. Actually, more typically of me now, I welcome the new Greats; perhaps a little too readily?

b@llhog24
09-21-2013, 08:47 PM
Cp3.

b@llhog24
09-21-2013, 08:49 PM
Its clearly Lebron at #1 IMO. He may be a freak athletically, but he's the best passer and playmaker in the league. And most importantly, he's developed his post-up and long range games. Then you got Durant, Dirk, & Duncan. CP3 and TP could squeak in too, haven't watched them play enough the last few years though.

Haha, Lebron the best passer in the game?? MIGHT be stretching just a bit there. I realize you're not a big NBA guy, but this just isn't the case. For a forward? Sure, easily. Not otherwise.

Yea that's kind of a stretch. He's probably bottom 10 as far as passing goes.

Tony_Starks
09-21-2013, 09:03 PM
The problem with Lebron isn't that he doesn't have skills it's that a lot of his fans tend to exaggerate his skills. ( To be fair a lot of us Kobe fans are guilty of this too btw) Like he can't just be a good passer for a forward it's "the best passer in the game!" He can't be a good defender it's "the best defender in the game! Can guard all 5 positions if he wants!!".... he can't be a good scorer it's "he could score 40 a night if he wanted to!....... etc.

When people exaggerate like that it makes it hard to give him praise for what he actually does without it turning into a worship session. I mean people are giving him props for athletically being a beast and some kind of way that even gets twisted into something negative...

b@llhog24
09-21-2013, 09:19 PM
The problem with Lebron isn't that he doesn't have skills it's that a lot of his fans tend to exaggerate his skills. ( To be fair a lot of us Kobe fans are guilty of this too btw) Like he can't just be a good passer for a forward it's "the best passer in the game!" He can't be a good defender it's "the best defender in the game! Can guard all 5 positions if he wants!!".... he can't be a good scorer it's "he could score 40 a night if he wanted to!....... etc.

When people exaggerate like that it makes it hard to give him praise for what he actually does without it turning into a worship session. I mean people are giving him props for athletically being a beast and some kind of way that even gets twisted into something negative...

For the most part, I agree with this.

bucketss
09-21-2013, 09:53 PM
lebron, chris paul, tony parker.

bucketss
09-21-2013, 09:56 PM
Are you serious? It's not a knock on LeBron to be so good because of his athleticism/size. We don't knock Shaq for that.. Stop being sucha fanboy. The reason why Shaq and Bron are so good is mainly their size. Lebron is able to shoot because everyone has to sag off him due to his drive.


If you threw Lebron's skillset in Reddick's body, we would not have a Lebron now would we.

no but, reddick would probably be 1-2 best pg in the game.


Hes up there still but no one watches him anymore. I think the fact he can do anything on offense, dribble well, shoot great, pass great, post up, shoot 3s, drive, pick n roll, chuck fadeaways or set shots equally, fancy layups/dunks just define the word skill.

but honestly this is such an annoying topic because people view the term skill differently. Heck people are saying Lebron is the most skilled.. that just goes to show. Lebron's a physical beast that's a main reason why he's so good.. hes still skilled at everything just not thee most.

I think now that Kobe is fading (a bit) I'd say Chris Paul even though I cant stand the guy. He's insanely skilled though. The crossovers the passing the shooting stroke, all elite. He's good because of his skill.


when I think skill I think a lot of their repitiour (however it's spelled). And please dont give me a list of Bron's repitiour. I understand his game. You do know Ginobili is probably more skilled than Lebron. His bag of tricks is bar none

hes probably more skilled than vc as well, but i bet you wouldn't admit that, than have the audacity to call us fanboys!!

amos1er
09-21-2013, 09:57 PM
Hey amos1er,
I think you're as perceptive about Kobe as you are NOT about LeBron.
If LeBron were wide open and couldn't hit the 3, you might have a point; but he does hit it; and well, and might improve even more. Also, not every super-gifted athlete performs to that level day after day; it takes lots of practice, commitment (mental and physical).

Seriously, after all, he is a decidedly better and more complete player than he was 10 years ago when he came into the League. Might he have done any hard work that has contributed to his major improvement?

Is there anything LeBron can do to satisfy you enough that you'd credit him for his (non-God-Given) skills?
----------
Could this be a symptom of the "generational thing"; meaning a certain, almost natural resistance to accepting the "next generation's" ascension to the top heights? I was not always immune to such a "bias". It was hard, at first, for me to accept the next generation's greats after growing up on Wilt, West, "O", Baylor and Russell. But I got "the hang of it"; and each generation's rise causes me less trouble. Actually, more typically of me now, I welcome the new Greats; perhaps a little too readily?

I agree that Lebron has put in hard work and has increased his god-given skill a lot. Not saying that he is not a hard worker at all, nor am I saying that he is unskilled. I do think he is skilled, just not on the level of those like Kobe, CP3, and Wade. In terms of skill, he is probably top ten in the NBA... All I'm saying is that contrary to what these Lebronites have said earlier in the thread, he is not amongst the most skilled players in the NBA today. It's his size and athleticism that sets him apart and gives him that extra boost making him the best player in the NBA today. Pound for pound he is not the best, but when everything is accounted for, he is. Though if Kobe was still in his prime, he would not be.

amos1er
09-21-2013, 09:58 PM
The problem with Lebron isn't that he doesn't have skills it's that a lot of his fans tend to exaggerate his skills. ( To be fair a lot of us Kobe fans are guilty of this too btw) Like he can't just be a good passer for a forward it's "the best passer in the game!" He can't be a good defender it's "the best defender in the game! Can guard all 5 positions if he wants!!".... he can't be a good scorer it's "he could score 40 a night if he wanted to!....... etc.

When people exaggerate like that it makes it hard to give him praise for what he actually does without it turning into a worship session. I mean people are giving him props for athletically being a beast and some kind of way that even gets twisted into something negative...

A very fair assessment.

Hawkeye15
09-21-2013, 09:59 PM
Are you serious? It's not a knock on LeBron to be so good because of his athleticism/size. We don't knock Shaq for that.. Stop being sucha fanboy. The reason why Shaq and Bron are so good is mainly their size. Lebron is able to shoot because everyone has to sag off him due to his drive.


If you threw Lebron's skillset in Reddick's body, we would not have a Lebron now would we.

I am serious. By every shooting metric available for last season, LeBron was ELITE at it.

I love the "if this player was blah, blah, blah, he would be blah, blah, blah".

Show me a player, in history, that was able to do the things that LeBron does at his size and strength. His skill level is off the charts. Outside of his FT shooting, show me one thing, one thing, that he does not do at an elite level.

Good luck

amos1er
09-21-2013, 10:00 PM
no but, reddick would probably be 1-2 best pg in the game.



hes probably more skilled than vc as well, but i bet you wouldn't admit that, than have the audacity to call us fanboys!!

Wow.

bucketss
09-21-2013, 10:00 PM
I agree that Lebron has put in hard work and has increased his god-given skill a lot. Not saying that he is not a hard worker at all, nor am I saying that he is unskilled. I do think he is skilled, just not on the level of those like Kobe, CP3, and Wade. In terms of skill, he is probably top ten in the NBA... All I'm saying is that contrary to what these Lebronites have said earlier in the thread, he is not amongst the most skilled players in the NBA today. It's his size and athleticism that sets him apart and gives him that extra boost making him the best player in the NBA today. Pound for pound he is not the best, but when everything is accounted for, he is. Though if Kobe was still in his prime, he would not be.

lol wade... you mean the guy whos been the league for 10 yrs and still doesn't have a jumper? lolz.

Hawkeye15
09-21-2013, 10:03 PM
Well, not free throws haha. I'd call him an elite mid-range shooter, a middling foul shooter and a very intelligent + solid 3pt shooter. But let's be real, he's nowhere near the best in the game shooting wise. That's reserved for the Dirk, Nash, Calderon, Durant, Curry tier (not including specialists here). This is a guy who still gets Rondo-lite treatment at times (even in the finals), and it does offer him many more uncontested jumpers then those guys would ever bother dreaming of. Clearly a large part of that is due to that freak speed/strength that allows him to blow by defenders if they get too in on him.

But agreed for the most part that barring injury he'll be elite well into his 30's.

The metrics show he is elite at shooting from everywhere outside the line. The reasons might matter, but it shows that he was able to adjust better than almost any other freak athlete who was sagged off. Essentially, there is nothing you can do anymore to stop LeBron from ripping you apart.

jerellh528
09-21-2013, 10:03 PM
The problem with Lebron isn't that he doesn't have skills it's that a lot of his fans tend to exaggerate his skills. ( To be fair a lot of us Kobe fans are guilty of this too btw) Like he can't just be a good passer for a forward it's "the best passer in the game!" He can't be a good defender it's "the best defender in the game! Can guard all 5 positions if he wants!!".... he can't be a good scorer it's "he could score 40 a night if he wanted to!....... etc.

When people exaggerate like that it makes it hard to give him praise for what he actually does without it turning into a worship session. I mean people are giving him props for athletically being a beast and some kind of way that even gets twisted into something negative...

So true. Great post.

Hawkeye15
09-21-2013, 10:05 PM
Hey amos1er,
I think you're as perceptive about Kobe as you are NOT about LeBron.
If LeBron were wide open and couldn't hit the 3, you might have a point; but he does hit it; and well, and might improve even more. Also, not every super-gifted athlete performs to that level day after day; it takes lots of practice, commitment (mental and physical).

Seriously, after all, he is a decidedly better and more complete player than he was 10 years ago when he came into the League. Might he have done any hard work that has contributed to his major improvement?

Is there anything LeBron can do to satisfy you enough that you'd credit him for his (non-God-Given) skills?
----------
Could this be a symptom of the "generational thing"; meaning a certain, almost natural resistance to accepting the "next generation's" ascension to the top heights? I was not always immune to such a "bias". It was hard, at first, for me to accept the next generation's greats after growing up on Wilt, West, "O", Baylor and Russell. But I got "the hang of it"; and each generation's rise causes me less trouble. Actually, more typically of me now, I welcome the new Greats; perhaps a little too readily?

LeBron could score or assist on every play in game 7 of the finals, and guard all 5 positions while going for 50-15-15, and he wouldn't give him an ounce of credit.

amos1er
09-21-2013, 10:05 PM
lol wade... you mean the guy whos been the league for 10 yrs and still doesn't have a jumper? lolz.

Wade is far more clutch that Lebron and does have a more consistent jumper. He also has far more moves he can rely on to create shots for himself on a consistent basis. However, Lebron in the post is deadly... Something that Wade could never do... Though Shaq in the post was deadly as well and it wasn't due to his skill set... It was his size and athleticism that set him apart, much like it is for Lebron. No knock on the guys, just being truthful and not trying to paint him in some god like light.

amos1er
09-21-2013, 10:07 PM
LeBron could score or assist on every play in game 7 of the finals, and guard all 5 positions while going for 50-15-15, and he wouldn't give him an ounce of credit.

When that day comes, let me know.

All I saw in this years finals was a guy who made it through by the skin of his teeth with a superior squad at his side against an aged Spurs team. Far contrary to how Kobe performed in 2008 and 2001 against a prime Duncan and a superior Spurs squad with far less talent around him.

Hawkeye15
09-21-2013, 10:07 PM
Wade is far more clutch that Lebron and does have a more consistent jumper. He also has far more moves he can rely on to create shots for himself on a consistent basis. However, Lebron in the post is deadly... Something that Wade could never do... Though Shaq in the post was deadly as well and it wasn't due to his skill set... It was his size and athleticism that set him apart, much like it is for Lebron. No knock on the guys, just being truthful and not trying to paint him in some god like light.

ignoring stats much?

Hawkeye15
09-21-2013, 10:08 PM
When that day comes, let me know.

All I saw in this years finals was a guy who made it through by the skin of his teeth with a superior squad at his side against an aged Spurs team. Far contrary to how Kobe performed in 2008 and 2001 against a prime Duncan and a superior Spurs squad with far less talent around him.

LeBron has been a better playoff performer than either over his career, and now he has created obvious separation.

Point is, no matter what he does, you won't give him credit for ****. It's your thing.

Hawkeye15
09-21-2013, 10:09 PM
+ Do-it-all physical freak with elite shooting, passing and dribbling skills. Defies position.
+ Intelligent player who can find teammates where no one else can. Deadly 3-point jumper.
+ Average free throw shooter. Can defend almost anyone. Excellent rebounder. Is never hurt.

Analysis
At this point, James is the closest thing we may ever have to a perfect basketball player.

He crushed the rest of the league in PER last season with a 31.7, just shy of his career high. He shot a ridiculous 56.5 percent from the field. He scored more points in the paint per game than anybody else in the league. He dished out more assists than most point guards. He registered a higher rebound rate than Marc Gasol and Robin Lopez. Defensively, he's tall, quick and strong enough to guard just about anyone in the league, and he almost did.

And if all that wasn't enough, consider this: He now wields one of the most potent jumpers in the league. Only Jose Calderon averaged more points per spot-up play than James, according to Synergy Sports.

Most efficient spot-up players, 2012-13 regular season(Min. 100 plays)
Player Plays Points PPP
Jose Calderon 187 281 1.50
LeBron James 143 195 1.36
Kyle Korver 224 301 1.34
Steve Nash 114 153 1.32
Stephen Curry 226 294 1.30
James' name pops up near the top of all the jump-shot leaderboards for last season. And that includes the unguarded catch-and-shoot category, in which he effectively shot 73.1 percent once you account for the added value of 3s. Only five players were more lethal with open shots. While he couldn't find his shot in the Finals until the very end, he ended up converting 37.5 percent of his 3s in the postseason, which is well above average. (For perspective, Kevin Durant shot 31.3 percent from deep in the playoffs.)

So, what's left for him to master?

Free throws. James seemingly switched up his routine every other game last season, and he still shot his lowest rate since 2007-08. It crept up to 77.7 percent in the playoffs, but he should be doing better and he vows that it's his No. 1 priority this offseason. We'll believe it when we see it.

Coach Erik Spoelstra nicknamed him 1-through-5 for a reason. James guarded everyone from Tiago Splitter to Tony Parker to Al Jefferson to Nate Robinson to Kevin Durant last season, but it's almost impossible to quantify that versatility. Nonetheless, the Heat were 4.4 points better per 100 possessions defensively with him on the floor, and 82games says he held his small forward counterpart to just a 12.7 PER.

With a lethal jump shot now in his repertoire, he's a reliable free throw routine from achieving the basketball ideal.

the current write up on espn (these things are generally filled with insight, depends on the player I suppose)

Hawkeye15
09-21-2013, 10:10 PM
but hey, he plays for stacked teams and lives off athletic ability.....

jerellh528
09-21-2013, 10:16 PM
the current write up on espn (these things are generally filled with insight, depends on the player I suppose)

Meh, you can switch around some wording and do the same personal opinion write up using selected stats about any top player, it is bspn after all. Still doesn't equate to being most skilled which is what this thread was about. Let's stay on topic guys.

topdog
09-21-2013, 10:17 PM
If he has the skills he doesn't use them enough to establish it as a strength in his game. Wade often posts up players while giving up a few inches easy, so height shouldn't be a problem.

Lebron doesn't use his post up skills much either... and he really should.

The Flash
09-21-2013, 10:20 PM
Mario Chalmers

bucketss
09-21-2013, 10:23 PM
Wade is far more clutch that Lebron and does have a more consistent jumper. He also has far more moves he can rely on to create shots for himself on a consistent basis. However, Lebron in the post is deadly... Something that Wade could never do... Though Shaq in the post was deadly as well and it wasn't due to his skill set... It was his size and athleticism that set him apart, much like it is for Lebron. No knock on the guys, just being truthful and not trying to paint him in some god like light.

wade couldn't? lol u don't watch much wade do you,smh... clutch is a skill? ... and can u prove wade is more clutch? did you just say wades jumper is more consistent than lebrons????Loool.

amos1er
09-21-2013, 10:25 PM
LeBron has been a better playoff performer than either over his career, and now he has created obvious separation.

Point is, no matter what he does, you won't give him credit for ****. It's your thing.

How about against elite competition? Factor out the many weak eastern conference teams he played against in the first few rounds and Kobe's first few years as a rookie coming off the bench and you will get some very different results.

amos1er
09-21-2013, 10:26 PM
wade couldn't? lol u don't watch much wade do you,smh... clutch is a skill? ... and can u prove wade is more clutch? did you just say wades jumper is more consistent than lebrons????Loool.

This coming from the guy who said JJ Redick would be a top 2 pg in this league if he had Lebron's skill set. Lulz.

amos1er
09-21-2013, 10:28 PM
but hey, he plays for stacked teams and lives off athletic ability.....

For the most part this is true. Though I will admit he has a good skill set, just not top 5 in the NBA currently.

bucketss
09-21-2013, 10:33 PM
This coming from the guy who said JJ Redick would be a top 2 pg in this league if he had Lebron's skill set. Lulz.

i noticed you don't know much about about wade/lebron lol, u always spread incorrect info about those guys,

Pablonovi
09-21-2013, 10:38 PM
LeBron could score or assist on every play in game 7 of the finals, and guard all 5 positions while going for 50-15-15, and he wouldn't give him an ounce of credit.

Hey Hawk,
I'm NOT trying to antagonize amos1er (there are things/parts of what he says that I like/appreciate) but this is honestly NOT MUCH of an exaggeration.

More generally, the GAP between supporters of Kobe and supporters of LeBron would seem to be unbridgeable. It boggles my mind (after all, I've got them both in the All-Time GOAT Top 10; don't we all?).

The passage of time (at least on the scale of multiple-months, i.e., a small number of additional years of play and stats) does NOT seem to have any influence in narrowing this gap. I suppose this won't change, at least, until both of their careers are over; AND, perhaps, the next Kobe-LeBron has come along to shift the attention to the latest new guy(s) (and finally mellow these radically-intense feelings).

Pablonovi
09-21-2013, 11:05 PM
Wade is far more clutch that Lebron and does have a more consistent jumper. He also has far more moves he can rely on to create shots for himself on a consistent basis. However, Lebron in the post is deadly... Something that Wade could never do... Though Shaq in the post was deadly as well and it wasn't due to his skill set... It was his size and athleticism that set him apart, much like it is for Lebron. No knock on the guys, just being truthful and not trying to paint him in some god like light.

Hey amos1er,
This is one of the most stunning posts I've ever seen.
I believe if you switched LeBron and Wade's names in every instance mentioned, you'd be closer to the truth.

WADE MUCH MORE CLUTCH THAN LEBRON? NOT!

I'm not so sure that Wade, historically is more clutch than LeBron (LeBron did, somehow, take the all-time worst Finals team to the Finals. He couldn't have done that without some serious clutchness.) The not-clutch rap against LeBron is years-old stuff now; during the last 3 years he's turned in a whole series of clutch regular season, and more importantly, playoff and Finals performances. (I guess this is going to be one of those "bad raps" that a player is never allowed to overcome despite all facts to the contrary; kind of like "el hidalgo / la hidalgo" and his fixation on Kobe the non-starting forever-substitute.)

WADE GETS OPEN EASIER THAN LEBRON? NOT!
Your other points are even easier to dispute.
You really want to claim that Wade has way more moves than LeBron and thus can much more easily get his shot off? LeBron can get open better than almost anyone else in the League (including Wade) from almost any spot on the floor; and hits at a better efficiency than just about everyone else from all spots. LeBron > Wade here.

LEBRON DOMINATES IN THE POST; WADE NEVER DID? NOT!

But you saved your "best" (read: worst) for last:
"However, Lebron in the post is deadly... Something that Wade could never do"
Mind-boggling. I thought the whole world knew that Wade has always been superlative in the post (didn't he absolutely slice-and-dice Dallas to death in the Finals that first time; regardless of how much help he might have gotten from the refs; that was his BEST weapon). Wade has historically been absolute dynamite driving into/thru the post; a relatively unstoppable force. Conversely, people, with some justification, criticize LeBron for not pounding the rock into/thru the post more often. I agree with this; he'd be more unstoppable there than outside; and even more so than even Peak Wade was.

I don't ever remember reading a serious NBA critic claiming that Wade was better jump-shooting than in/thru the post. Mind-boggling.

Tony_Starks
09-21-2013, 11:15 PM
I think the fundamental thing is "most skilled" doesn't= best player. For example as far as skill sets go Pau Gasol is one of the most skilled players in the league, but most people would take Dwight over him. Kobe's skill set is as well rounded as it gets, best footwork since MJ, but outside of LA not too many folks are going to choose him over Lebron...

So if I say "player x" is more skilled than Lebron I don't understand why his supporters should get so offended. We all know he's the man.

sfattahian
09-21-2013, 11:32 PM
'Skilled' is too wide a term. Someone could have the most rebounding skill, or the most dribbling skill but it's like comparing apples to oranges.

If we're talking about the player with the biggest and most versatile skillset, it's got to be Lebron.

If you're going to nitpick, at least be correct, which in this case you are not. Skilled is a very definitive term referring to skills with the basketball...i.e. dribbling, passing, shooting mainly.

rebounding and athleticism have nothing to do with skill in the general term... yes you could say "he's a skilled rebounder" but when you say skill, you are usually referring to ballskills.

Clearly Stephen Curry is the most skilled player in the nba. LeBron is way better but Curry is way more skilled. Kyrie Irving is probably the only other acceptable answer.

sfattahian
09-21-2013, 11:33 PM
Lebron James

not a skilled shooter so no

sfattahian
09-21-2013, 11:33 PM
Derrick rose if healthy

not a skilled shooter so no

5ass
09-21-2013, 11:38 PM
Hey amos1er,
This is one of the most stunning posts I've ever seen.
I believe if you switched LeBron and Wade's names in every instance mentioned, you'd be closer to the truth.

WADE MUCH MORE CLUTCH THAN LEBRON? NOT!

I'm not so sure that Wade, historically is more clutch than LeBron (LeBron did, somehow, take the all-time worst Finals team to the Finals. He couldn't have done that without some serious clutchness.) The not-clutch rap against LeBron is years-old stuff now; during the last 3 years he's turned in a whole series of clutch regular season, and more importantly, playoff and Finals performances. (I guess this is going to be one of those "bad raps" that a player is never allowed to overcome despite all facts to the contrary; kind of like "el hidalgo / la hidalgo" and his fixation on Kobe the non-starting forever-substitute.)

WADE GETS OPEN EASIER THAN LEBRON? NOT!
Your other points are even easier to dispute.
You really want to claim that Wade has way more moves than LeBron and thus can much more easily get his shot off? LeBron can get open better than almost anyone else in the League (including Wade) from almost any spot on the floor; and hits at a better efficiency than just about everyone else from all spots. LeBron > Wade here.

LEBRON DOMINATES IN THE POST; WADE NEVER DID? NOT!

But you saved your "best" (read: worst) for last:
"However, Lebron in the post is deadly... Something that Wade could never do"
Mind-boggling. I thought the whole world knew that Wade has always been superlative in the post (didn't he absolutely slice-and-dice Dallas to death in the Finals that first time; regardless of how much help he might have gotten from the refs; that was his BEST weapon). Wade has historically been absolute dynamite driving into/thru the post; a relatively unstoppable force. Conversely, people, with some justification, criticize LeBron for not pounding the rock into/thru the post more often. I agree with this; he'd be more unstoppable there than outside; and even more so than even Peak Wade was.

I don't ever remember reading a serious NBA critic claiming that Wade was better jump-shooting than in/thru the post. Mind-boggling.
Agreeeeed.

sfattahian
09-21-2013, 11:45 PM
How can people misinterpret the word skill??????????? He's talking skills people skills... shooting is a skill, dribbling is a skill, passing is a skill...

you can't choose people that lack one of the three like LeBron, Paul, Rose or Duncan who can't shoot. (don't tell me high FG% counts... FT% and 3PT% reflects shooting ability way more.

IF YOU CAN'T SHOOT OR AREN'T A GREAT SHOOTER, YOU CAN'T BE CONSIDERED MOST SKILLED.

So you have to start with the best shooters, since shooting is the most basic fundamental skill of basketball, and then dribbling and finally passing.

Curry clearly has more skill than any player. Kyrie Irving is the only other player who can shoot, dribble and pass close to Curry's level. Lillard is pretty skilled too. Tony Parker is extremely skilled but lacks a bit of range. Kobe has tremendous skill for a 2-guard, but others have more skill at shooting, dribbling, passing.

Kashmir13579
09-21-2013, 11:46 PM
Kobe, Melo, CP3, Parker, Curry, Duncan, Dirk

I have no idea who the "most" skilled is.

Chronz
09-22-2013, 12:28 AM
How can people misinterpret the word skill??????????? He's talking skills people skills... shooting is a skill, dribbling is a skill, passing is a skill...

you can't choose people that lack one of the three like LeBron, Paul, Rose or Duncan who can't shoot. (don't tell me high FG% counts... FT% and 3PT% reflects shooting ability way more.

IF YOU CAN'T SHOOT OR AREN'T A GREAT SHOOTER, YOU CAN'T BE CONSIDERED MOST SKILLED.

So you have to start with the best shooters, since shooting is the most basic fundamental skill of basketball, and then dribbling and finally passing.

Curry clearly has more skill than any player. Kyrie Irving is the only other player who can shoot, dribble and pass close to Curry's level. Lillard is pretty skilled too. Tony Parker is extremely skilled but lacks a bit of range. Kobe has tremendous skill for a 2-guard, but others have more skill at shooting, dribbling, passing.

So there are only 3 skills in the NBA? Rebounding, footwork, various shooting ranges/efficiency are all just innate talents?

FlashBolt
09-22-2013, 12:54 AM
The term skilled could mean plenty of attributes. I'm going with Chris Paul. It would be James but I feel he relies more on his physique than skill. However, if you combine physique and skill, James is built for basketball.

bucketss
09-22-2013, 01:20 AM
How can people misinterpret the word skill??????????? He's talking skills people skills... shooting is a skill, dribbling is a skill, passing is a skill...

you can't choose people that lack one of the three like LeBron, Paul, Rose or Duncan who can't shoot. (don't tell me high FG% counts... FT% and 3PT% reflects shooting ability way more.

IF YOU CAN'T SHOOT OR AREN'T A GREAT SHOOTER, YOU CAN'T BE CONSIDERED MOST SKILLED.

So you have to start with the best shooters, since shooting is the most basic fundamental skill of basketball, and then dribbling and finally passing.

Curry clearly has more skill than any player. Kyrie Irving is the only other player who can shoot, dribble and pass close to Curry's level. Lillard is pretty skilled too. Tony Parker is extremely skilled but lacks a bit of range. Kobe has tremendous skill for a 2-guard, but others have more skill at shooting, dribbling, passing.

lebron is able to do all of those.

bucketss
09-22-2013, 01:22 AM
Kobe, Melo, CP3, Parker, Curry, Duncan, Dirk

I have no idea who the "most" skilled is.

you tryna say melo is more skilled than bron?

jerellh528
09-22-2013, 02:25 AM
you tryna say melo is more skilled than bron?

I would say so

Kashmir13579
09-22-2013, 02:45 AM
you tryna say melo is more skilled than bron?

If thats how you feel.

alexander_37
09-22-2013, 02:47 AM
Out of all the top players Harden is probably the least athletically talented... He has a very well rounded offensive game so I would put him up there.

Kashmir13579
09-22-2013, 02:50 AM
Out of all the top players Harden is probably the least athletically talented... He has a very well rounded offensive game so I would put him up there.

Harden absolutely in the convo. Its impossible to say with certainty who the most skilled is.

alexander_37
09-22-2013, 02:51 AM
Harden absolutely in the convo. Its impossible to say with certainty who the most skilled is.

Harden has average top end speed, below average hops, a great first step, is a little short, and is strong. Most guys with his talent are bench warmers, yet he just scores. He is the NBA's version of the old guy at the Y that kicks everyone's ***.

tredigs
09-22-2013, 02:56 AM
Lmao Harden is super athletic fellas. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ln30QAkZX50

Auseranami
09-22-2013, 03:04 AM
Kobe

JLynn943
09-22-2013, 03:38 AM
playing great defense is still a skill imo, so that (along with rebounding) knocks Curry out for me

I don't see how it's anyone other than LeBron though. He's good at everything. Getting to the hoop, shooting, post moves, rebounding, passing/play making, steals, etc. Easily the most complete player, which to me means he's skilled in all of those categories and is thus the most skilled.

Second would probably be Duncan.

Kashmir13579
09-22-2013, 03:51 AM
Lmao Harden is super athletic fellas. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ln30QAkZX50

No doubt he's athletic. He's more of a finesse player though, using his smarts more than his physicality. Probably why the highlight you chose came from an all-star game and not his usual grind.

Kevj77
09-22-2013, 04:06 AM
I'll say this skill and talent aren't the same thing. Every great player is a combination of talent and skill. I think talent is god given. Skill is something you can improve.

NBA-GMaster
09-22-2013, 04:22 AM
LeBron and Wade

Supreme LA
09-22-2013, 05:17 AM
LeBron and Wade

Yes, because we've all witnessed how skilled Wade was when his athleticism wasn't there for him to start the playoffs.

amos1er
09-22-2013, 05:46 AM
Lmao Harden is super athletic fellas. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ln30QAkZX50

Sophomore rookie game???

Is that the best you can do???

amos1er
09-22-2013, 05:47 AM
LeBron and Wade

You don't know **** about basketball.

amos1er
09-22-2013, 05:49 AM
I'll say this skill and talent aren't the same thing. Every great player is a combination of talent and skill. I think talent is god given. Skill is something you can improve.

Unless your Lebron James. Then you just have athletic ability, size and Nike to rely on.

amos1er
09-22-2013, 05:50 AM
I'd **** you all up one on one.

MonroeFAN
09-22-2013, 07:48 AM
Since skill is a subjective term, I'll go ahead and go with the best player in the universe (and potentially all time) Lebron James.

I can't stop laughing at these long drawn out lists that include players like Manu, but not Lebron.

ddt
09-22-2013, 08:25 AM
A skilled player should be very good at: Shooting, Passing, Rebounding, Dribbling, Leadership, defense.
I got these players: Kobe, Durant, Lebron(Shooting can be a problem).

Minimal
09-22-2013, 10:57 AM
A skilled player should be very good at: Shooting, Passing, Rebounding, Dribbling, Leadership, defense.
I got these players: Kobe, Durant, Lebron(Shooting can be a problem).
Yeah thats why he is 40% from 3.
LeBron and Durant are the two most skilled players in NBA, because they both have the full package, Durant in a lesser way with defense and passing.

tredigs
09-22-2013, 11:17 AM
No doubt he's athletic. He's more of a finesse player though, using his smarts more than his physicality. Probably why the highlight you chose came from an all-star game and not his usual grind.

In some senses, but he also attacks the rim and looks for contact more than just about everybody in the NBA, and if this guy is both "undersized with below average hops", then I don't know how he pulls off these smashes? Lol at Amos1, "AS Game the best you can do??!". Didn't know the NBA was Space Jam mode without their powers. Here's some mixed in-game footage of the sub-par athlete: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6C90Z58lF7w


Yeah thats why he is 40% from 3.
LeBron and Durant are the two most skilled players in NBA, because they both have the full package, Durant in a lesser way with defense and passing.

3's are a bit more erratic from year to year compared to most aspects of the game, and we saw that he still wasn't too comfortable taking it with Pop begging him to, so it's not as if he's a dead eye 3pt shooter like the 40+ percent might suggest (he gets far more room then most who could put up that #), but he's still very solid, and it's not a point on his game anyone can really knock.

If we factor in rebounding and defense, there's no doubt Lebron eclipses just about everyone. Though, those are two more things that are much easier to excel at with his body type. Still, they do take work/knowledge and he's undoubtedly great at both.

Kashmir13579
09-22-2013, 11:26 AM
In some senses, but he also attacks the rim and looks for contact more than just about everybody in the NBA, and if this guy is both "undersized with below average hops", then I don't know how he pulls off these smashes? Lol at Amos1, "AS Game the best you can do??!". Didn't know the NBA was Space Jam mode without their powers. Here's some mixed in-game footage of the sub-par athlete: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6C90Z58lF7w



3's are a bit more erratic from year to year compared to most aspects of the game, and we saw that he still wasn't too comfortable taking it with Pop begging him to, so it's not as if he's a dead eye 3pt shooter like the 40+ percent suggest, but he's still very solid, and it's not a point on his game anyone can really knock.

If we factor in rebounding and defense, there's no doubt Lebron eclipses just about everyone. Though, those are two more things that are much easier to excel at with his body type. Still, they do take work/knowledge and he's undoubtedly great at both.
He's a finesse player in most senses.

tredigs
09-22-2013, 11:28 AM
He's a finesse player in most senses.

Agreed. A finesse player in most senses who is incredibly aggressive and has great athleticism.

D-Leethal
09-22-2013, 12:20 PM
Harden is a great player, but he plays the whistle and benefits from the trigger-happy refereeing in the modern NBA game. His style of play is tailor made for today's NBA.

Straight fundamental skills? Still Kobe.

jerellh528
09-22-2013, 12:24 PM
Haha it's so funny to actually see people name Lebron on here, just goes to show how ignorant the average fan of psd is. I honestly don't even know if they, themselves believe that he's the most skilled or they're just trying to stir the pot. Either way it's hilarious to see.

Chronz
09-22-2013, 12:25 PM
I think you're as perceptive about Kobe as you are NOT about LeBron.
If LeBron were wide open and couldn't hit the 3, you might have a point; but he does hit it; and well, and might improve even more.
Dont listen to him on anything regarding Bron. Hes the kind of hater that thinks of you refer to him as Bron, it means you're a homer, imagine that.

Anyways, when both Kobe and Bron are set shooting from 3, guess what, Bron still makes them at a higher rate. Set shooting a skill Bron has on Kobe, the thing is, these guys are primary ball handlers and dont get to display it that often. Oh hey, another skill Bron has on Kobe, ball protection and passing effectiveness.

LoveMeOrHateMe
09-22-2013, 12:37 PM
If your going by skill it's Kobe and it's not close the man is a master of his craft, his footwork and smarts are unmatchable

justinnum1
09-22-2013, 12:42 PM
lebron and it's not even close.

D-Leethal
09-22-2013, 12:49 PM
lebron and it's not even close.

LeBron lacks footwork and any sort of midrange game outside of a dribble pull up. He doesn't utilize fakes, counters, dropsteps. And I don't care what the stats say - his post game is lacking. He overpowers or blows past people down there the same way Dwight does but thats not a fundamental skill. Kobe is the most fundamentally sound perimeter player in the game. Big men its Duncan. Fundamental skills Melo is even ahead of LeBron. And that is by no means saying he is a better player or uses the skills at his disposal more effectively.

D-Leethal
09-22-2013, 12:52 PM
If your going by skill it's Kobe and it's not close the man is a master of his craft, his footwork and smarts are unmatchable

Agreed. I don't even think its up for debate. There is not a fundamental move in the book Kobe hasn't mastered and he has a counter move for every single one.

Chronz
09-22-2013, 01:00 PM
Harden is a great player, but he plays the whistle and benefits from the trigger-happy refereeing in the modern NBA game. His style of play is tailor made for today's NBA.

Straight fundamental skills? Still Kobe.

So its a talent that conducive to THIS NBA. Even if we believe that, wouldn't that make it a modern skill?

Either way, I dont think Harden should be mentioned, skills are more about variety than dominance, and he has basically figured out the most important facets of efficient play (3's and layups), hes basically a cheat player with how he handles the ball too. If the NBA were 2K13, Harden would be the cheezer.

D-Leethal
09-22-2013, 01:06 PM
So its a talent that conducive to THIS NBA. Even if we believe that, wouldn't that make it a modern skill?

Either way, I dont think Harden should be mentioned, skills are more about variety than dominance, and he has basically figured out the most important facets of efficient play (3's and layups), hes basically a cheat player with how he handles the ball too. If the NBA were 2K13, Harden would be the cheezer.

My definition of basketball skills is strictly fundamentals. I'm not saying you haven't been, but you probably have had to have some in-depth 1:1 coaching or took part in some sort of training camp/drill session to really grasp what that means in a basketball sense. I wouldn't expect someone who has never played in that type of environment to truly understand the difference between skills and ability. I don't consider Harden being able to exploit contact and get to the FT line a fundamental skill.

And I think you missed a spot - Harden has figured out the key aspects to efficient play in today's NBA (3s and the FT line).

Dude barely makes a legitimate attempt at the rim half the time.

I don't think we disagree here though.

Chronz
09-22-2013, 01:10 PM
Meh, you can switch around some wording and do the same personal opinion write up using selected stats about any top player, it is bspn after all. Still doesn't equate to being most skilled which is what this thread was about. Let's stay on topic guys.
Its an article about the skills Bron possesses, how is that not on topic? Whats off topic is your unsubstantiated opinion about ESPN being able to do a write up quite like that for anyone else. Maybe a select few for sure, but anyone? LMFAO try it. You will see why they are ESPN and your you.

Chronz
09-22-2013, 01:11 PM
If you're going to nitpick, at least be correct, which in this case you are not. Skilled is a very definitive term referring to skills with the basketball...i.e. dribbling, passing, shooting mainly.

rebounding and athleticism have nothing to do with skill in the general term... yes you could say "he's a skilled rebounder" but when you say skill, you are usually referring to ballskills.

Clearly Stephen Curry is the most skilled player in the nba. LeBron is way better but Curry is way more skilled. Kyrie Irving is probably the only other acceptable answer.

So rebounding isn't a skill, good to know because I honestly didn't know where to place that. It still doesn't sound right when you say it tho, rebounding IS a skill and players make a living off of that skill. Sounds like you have a little man bias.

Where is CP3 in your list tho?

ChiSox219
09-22-2013, 01:12 PM
So its a talent that conducive to THIS NBA. Even if we believe that, wouldn't that make it a modern skill?

Either way, I dont think Harden should be mentioned, skills are more about variety than dominance, and he has basically figured out the most important facets of efficient play (3's and layups), hes basically a cheat player with how he handles the ball too. If the NBA were 2K13, Harden would be the cheezer.

I think Harden deserves a little more credit than that, he's got a nasty step back only he does it from 23 feet out instead of 15-20ft like most of the NBA. His passing, ball handling, and court vision are better than many PGs. He's not near the top of the "most skilled list", I think that's Duncan, Lebron, and Chris Paul, but there aren't many young players I would put higher than Harden.

jerellh528
09-22-2013, 01:14 PM
Its an article about the skills Bron possesses, how is that not on topic? Whats off topic is your unsubstantiated opinion about ESPN being able to do a write up quite like that for anyone else. Maybe a select few for sure, but anyone? LMFAO try it. You will see why they are ESPN and your you.

You don't even know who I am. And I don't have the time to waste, but yes, an article like that can be written about almost any top player, I didn't say anyone. It's sorta like watching YouTube highlights.

D-Leethal
09-22-2013, 01:17 PM
I don't think Melo is gonna get enough love here. As far as complete skillset goes - he has the ultimate toolkit. He hasn't figured out how to maximize it, but its there. Kobe knows it, and he has said it.

b@llhog24
09-22-2013, 01:18 PM
So its a talent that conducive to THIS NBA. Even if we believe that, wouldn't that make it a modern skill?

Either way, I dont think Harden should be mentioned, skills are more about variety than dominance, and he has basically figured out the most important facets of efficient play (3's and layups), hes basically a cheat player with how he handles the ball too. If the NBA were 2K13, Harden would be the cheezer.

Lol, kind of like how I play.


I think Harden deserves a little more credit than that, he's got a nasty step back only he does it from 23 feet out instead of 15-20ft like most of the NBA. His passing, ball handling, and court vision are better than many PGs. He's not near the top of the "most skilled list", I think that's Duncan, Lebron, and Chris Paul, but there aren't many young players I would put higher than Harden.

Yea, I'd probably only put Kyrie above him as far as young players go.

b@llhog24
09-22-2013, 01:21 PM
I don't think Melo is gonna get enough love here. As far as complete skillset goes - he has the ultimate toolkit. He hasn't figured out how to maximize it, but its there. Kobe knows it, and he has said it.

He has a wide scoring arsenal (probably the largest tbh) but his passing/ball handling and defensive skillset leaves a lot to be desired.

Chronz
09-22-2013, 01:21 PM
My definition of basketball skills is strictly fundamentals. I'm not saying you haven't been, but you probably have had to have some in-depth 1:1 coaching or took part in some sort of training camp/drill session to really grasp what that means in a basketball sense. I wouldn't expect someone who has never played in that type of environment to truly understand the difference between skills and ability. I don't consider Harden being able to exploit contact and get to the FT line a fundamental skill.
Heres the problem with your experience, what defines fundamental basketball can change as the athletes do. In the 50's, jumping to block shots wasn't fundamental defense, Russell changed that, the jump shot didn't become a fundamental skill until the athletes showed up. Whos to say in the future, the fundamentals for driving dont become Harden-esque? More importantly, why would I limit skills to solely what a certain non-nba person defines as fundamental? If this were the 50's, I would still give Russ credit for his shotblock SKILL, regardless of what coaches thought of it at the time. Why wouldn't it be the same with Harden, to rely solely on your definition of fundamentals instead of overall skills is at the height of hubris IMO. I dont care about fundamentals if you are breaking the mold. If anything, that makes it more impressive.


And I think you missed a spot - Harden has figured out the key aspects to efficient play in today's NBA (3s and the FT line).
Even if we believe that, wouldn't that make it a modern skill? 3's and drives, hows that sound instead?


Dude barely makes a legitimate attempt at the rim half the time.

I don't think we disagree here though.
But he is making a legitimate drive to the rack.

D-Leethal
09-22-2013, 01:24 PM
He has a wide scoring arsenal (probably the largest tbh) but his passing/ball handling and defensive skillset leaves a lot to be desired.

Not at all. Melo is a hell of a passer, for a size he has tremendous handles, and he can move his feet laterally as good as anyone his size not named LeBron James.

Now, does he maximize those skills or utilize them effectively all the time? No. Doesn't mean the skills aren't there.

Chronz
09-22-2013, 01:24 PM
You don't even know who I am. And I don't have the time to waste, but yes, an article like that can be written about almost any top player, I didn't say anyone. It's sorta like watching YouTube highlights.
Interdasting, perhaps.... perhaps nay

Chronz
09-22-2013, 01:27 PM
Not at all. Melo is a hell of a passer, for a size he has tremendous handles, and he can move his feet laterally as good as anyone his size not named LeBron James.

Now, does he maximize those skills or utilize them effectively all the time? No. Doesn't mean the skills aren't there.

Thats the point I made with CP3, CP3 is a bullish post player but he cant overpower many players. He has a nice array of moves down there he just doesn't get to utilize them often for a variety of reasons (health/roster composition), but he still has the skills. What do you do in those situations. Do you say he has post skills or no post game at all (as beasted wrote)....

Chronz
09-22-2013, 01:30 PM
Not at all. Melo is a hell of a passer, for a size he has tremendous handles, and he can move his feet laterally as good as anyone his size not named LeBron James.

Now, does he maximize those skills or utilize them effectively all the time? No. Doesn't mean the skills aren't there.

A hell of a passer? Maybe out of the post or on the wings, but he is awfully inept as a playmaker at the top of the key from what Ive seen and assessed

D-Leethal
09-22-2013, 01:32 PM
Heres the problem with your experience, what defines fundamental basketball can change as the athletes do. In the 50's, jumping to block shots wasn't fundamental defense, Russell changed that, the jump shot didn't become a fundamental skill until the athletes showed up.

Good stuff right there. Not much else to say except nice post.


Whos to say in the future, the fundamentals for driving dont become Harden-esque? More importantly, why would I limit skills to solely what a certain non-nba person defines as fundamental? If this were the 50's, I would still give Russ credit for his shotblock SKILL, regardless of what coaches thought of it at the time. Why wouldn't it be the same with Harden, to rely solely on your definition of fundamentals instead of overall skills is at the height of hubris IMO. I dont care about fundamentals if you are breaking the mold. If anything, that makes it more impressive.

Harden's first step, Euro step, handles, crossovers are very much fundamental skills and are a pleasure to watch. But the end result wouldn't have the same success if it wasn't for the way the referees were encouraged to call the game. I can't give him credit for that.

But the Russell parallel here doesn't hold weight. Its not about adapting to current skill level of the players around you, which is where the Russell shot block comes into play. Its about adapting to current NBA refereeing, which is defined by a bunch of suits and ties in an office, its not embedded as part of the natural game.

I isolate skills and overall effectiveness. Its not two in the same. There are other variables outside of your skillset that impact your overall effectiveness.



Even if we believe that, wouldn't that make it a modern skill? 3's and drives, hows that sound instead?

The first step, the handles, the speed, the crossover - all fundamental skills. Getting a whistle and flinging the ball over the backboard and getting 2 points - not a skill. Its a utilization of the way the suits and ties decide they want the game officiated this year.



But he is making a legitimate drive to the rack.

Agreed.

D-Leethal
09-22-2013, 01:35 PM
A hell of a passer? Maybe out of the post or on the wings, but he is awfully inept as a playmaker at the top of the key from what Ive seen and assessed

Not sure you will find one Knicks fan that agrees with you there. And I am pretty sure his synergy stats in pick and rolls are pretty damn good but don't quote me on that. Most Knick fans plead for him to be involved in more high pick and rolls. The thing that happened is when Mike D'Antoni tried to mold him into that, his isolation/elbow game took a huge hit - and his overall effectiveness took a huge hit as a result.

Unwilling is a much better way to describe his passing game than inept. He has the vision, he has the handles, and he has the quick hands. You see the flashes but you don't see him maintain it. When the flashes are there, the skills are there.

Chronz
09-22-2013, 01:35 PM
Unless your Lebron James. Then you just have athletic ability, size and Nike to rely on.
I thought you said he had some semblance of skill and that you weren't saying he had no skill. So whats this post? Another sign of irrational/emotional breakdown? Or just more inconsistency ?


I'd **** you all up one on one.
Hows your team game? Non existent I imagine.

Chronz
09-22-2013, 01:39 PM
I think Harden deserves a little more credit than that, he's got a nasty step back only he does it from 23 feet out instead of 15-20ft like most of the NBA. His passing, ball handling, and court vision are better than many PGs. He's not near the top of the "most skilled list", I think that's Duncan, Lebron, and Chris Paul, but there aren't many young players I would put higher than Harden.
Moreso than Durant? I wonder tho, how do we separate the length and height advantage Durant has on just about everyone from his shot making ability? Does it even matter? It is a skill relative to his own talent.

justinnum1
09-22-2013, 01:39 PM
I don't think Melo is gonna get enough love here. As far as complete skillset goes - he has the ultimate toolkit. He hasn't figured out how to maximize it, but its there. Kobe knows it, and he has said it.

Melo is awful.

Tony_Starks
09-22-2013, 01:40 PM
LeBron lacks footwork and any sort of midrange game outside of a dribble pull up. He doesn't utilize fakes, counters, dropsteps. And I don't care what the stats say - his post game is lacking. He overpowers or blows past people down there the same way Dwight does but thats not a fundamental skill. Kobe is the most fundamentally sound perimeter player in the game. Big men its Duncan. Fundamental skills Melo is even ahead of LeBron. And that is by no means saying he is a better player or uses the skills at his disposal more effectively.

Right on the money!

Tony_Starks
09-22-2013, 01:44 PM
Also I agree about Melo, he was incredibly slept on in this thread. His handle, offensive arsenal and counter moves, overall shooting and range,driving and finishing skills, are all impeccable and he's playing with at least 1 defender completely in his grill all night. Nobody is laying off him daring him to shoot ever....

D-Leethal
09-22-2013, 01:46 PM
Thats the point I made with CP3, CP3 is a bullish post player but he cant overpower many players. He has a nice array of moves down there he just doesn't get to utilize them often for a variety of reasons (health/roster composition), but he still has the skills. What do you do in those situations. Do you say he has post skills or no post game at all (as beasted wrote)....

I would say I consider post skills and post game two different things. You can have an effective post game without a wide array of post skills, normally due to overbearing size/speed. You can have post skills without an effective post game, normally due to lack of size/speed in relation to your defenders.

D-Leethal
09-22-2013, 01:47 PM
Melo is awful.

Very insightful as always. 53,000 posts, not one person was enlightened.

ChiSox219
09-22-2013, 01:49 PM
As far as modern skills go, being able to shoot the 3 ball off the dribble has become a valuable skill. I look at guys like Kyrie and Harden and I don't know how you stop them with the monster screen setters they will play with this year. You are going to see Kyrie/Harden get good looks coming off the PnR, and while that off the dribble 3 is not an easy shot, we know it's a really dangerous weapon if you perfect it like Steve Nash.

D-Leethal
09-22-2013, 01:50 PM
Moreso than Durant? I wonder tho, how do we separate the length and height advantage Durant has on just about everyone from his shot making ability? Does it even matter? It is a skill relative to his own talent.

I'm probably going against my own definition/rules stated before here but I think as your size increases, your shooting ability becomes more and more of a bonus. Not really sure how to state what I mean other than basically - if your 7 foot and can shoot like Steve Nash, your skills are enhanced compared to if you are 5'10 and shoot like Steve Nash. The skills are there for both - but the skills are a much bigger game changer for the 7 footer. I think they should get credit for that too, because its a rarity and a unique talent.

Chronz
09-22-2013, 01:55 PM
Most Knick fans plead for him to be involved in more high pick and rolls. The thing that happened is when Mike D'Antoni tried to mold him into that, his isolation/elbow game took a huge hit - and his overall effectiveness took a huge hit as a result.
I dont think the 2 are entirely unrelated. Mike D tried to get him to play that game, he wasn't very good at it. When Kobe tried to operate primarily at the top of the key (the year he was finally "freed" of the triangle so he could become a do it all player), his overall game faltered as well. It happened AGAIN this year when Mike made Kobe the defacto PG, its not a coincidence that Kobes turnovers upped again when placed into this role, hes admitted himself that hes not a natural facilitator and that hes never had to practice so many screen/rolls and yet hes ALOT better than Melo at it so I dont really care what Knicks fans will think, my standards for a great scoring playmakers are much higher because Ive seen the likes of Bron/Tmac and to a lesser extent Kobe. I could mention guys like Wade but hes not within the same height range as Melo.

That said, I do remember something about Melo/Amare in the PnR being decent but its such a limited sample size and I think its telling when your effectiveness in that role is so reliant on cast. A guy like Tmac could consistently create layups off the PnR for inept finishers like Chuck Hayes and old man Deke.



Unwilling is a much better way to describe his passing game than inept. He has the vision, he has the handles, and he has the quick hands. You see the flashes but you don't see him maintain it. When the flashes are there, the skills are there.
I only buy this argument when people speak of defense, and even then its tricky.
To me, when the flashes are there, it means the consistency is lacking. Consistency is what defines the skill more than flashes of highs and lows. Maybe I missed the games you guys saw, but the flashes I saw werent overly impressive anyways. If Melo were a great PnR playmaker, his game wouldn't have suffered so badly under Mike D since thats basically his specialty.

When you see a player randomly get hot from outside, that was a flash of brilliance but it doesn't mean anything without the consistency. But yes, better to have some flashes than no flashes at all. Im guilty of protecting my players with that line too tho, he can do it, he just cant or wont right now.

Let me know when it finally happens because Ive seen too many of Melo's games over the years to buy it.

D-Leethal
09-22-2013, 01:56 PM
Also I agree about Melo, he was incredibly slept on in this thread. His handle, offensive arsenal and counter moves, overall shooting and range,driving and finishing skills, are all impeccable and he's playing with at least 1 defender completely in his grill all night. Nobody is laying off him daring him to shoot ever....

Knowing the way this forum works I didn't expect him to get any mention, but he has more tools at his disposal than anyone in the league outside of Kobe.

Chronz
09-22-2013, 02:00 PM
As far as modern skills go, being able to shoot the 3 ball off the dribble has become a valuable skill. I look at guys like Kyrie and Harden and I don't know how you stop them with the monster screen setters they will play with this year. You are going to see Kyrie/Harden get good looks coming off the PnR, and while that off the dribble 3 is not an easy shot, we know it's a really dangerous weapon if you perfect it like Steve Nash.

OT:
Most people who utter the words humble are actually not very humble IMO, if they wear it on their chest I think even less of it. Now I dont know why but for some reason I feel Butler is genuine. Seems like a very hard working kid, I saved that pic for some reason.

D-Leethal
09-22-2013, 02:05 PM
I dont think the 2 are entirely unrelated. Mike D tried to get him to play that game, he wasn't very good at it. When Kobe tried to operate primarily at the top of the key (the year he was finally "freed" of the triangle so he could become a do it all player), his overall game faltered as well. It happened AGAIN this year when Mike made Kobe the defacto PG, its not a coincidence that Kobes turnovers upped again when placed into this role, hes admitted himself that hes not a natural facilitator and that hes never had to practice so many screen/rolls and yet hes ALOT better than Melo at it so I dont really care what Knicks fans will think, my standards for a great scoring playmakers are much higher because Ive seen the likes of Bron/Tmac and to a lesser extent Kobe. I could mention guys like Wade but hes not within the same height range as Melo.

That said, I do remember something about Melo/Amare in the PnR being decent but its such a limited sample size and I think its telling when your effectiveness in that role is so reliant on cast. A guy like Tmac could consistently create layups off the PnR for inept finishers like Chuck Hayes and old man Deke.



I only buy this argument when people speak of defense, and even then its tricky.
To me, when the flashes are there, it means the consistency is lacking. Consistency is what defines the skill more than flashes of highs and lows. Maybe I missed the games you guys saw, but the flashes I saw werent overly impressive anyways. If Melo were a great PnR playmaker, his game wouldn't have suffered so badly under Mike D since thats basically his specialty.

When you see a player randomly get hot from outside, that was a flash of brilliance but it doesn't mean anything without the consistency. But yes, better to have some flashes than no flashes at all. Im guilty of protecting my players with that line too tho, he can do it, he just cant or wont right now.

Let me know when it finally happens because Ive seen too many of Melo's games over the years to buy it.

Why only defense? The same tendency to not give 110% on defense for 48 minutes can't also occur for not wanting to pass the ball?

And the fact that Melo's overall game took a hit when he was asked to be a playmaker doesn't mean he is not a capable playmaker - it means when he's being asked to step out of his comfort zone as a player and focus on setting others up it subtracts from his mojo - which is being a natural born isolation scorer. Doesn't mean he doesn't have the skills - it means overall - thats not the best way to maximize his skills.

Your keep connecting skillset and overall effectiveness. Which are not two in the same. Consistency defines your overall effectiveness as a player, it doesn't define your skillset.

Shooting is tricky because at its core its a fluky thing. Great shooters have horrible nights. Bad shooters have great nights. 99% of your fundamental skills are there to stay, its just about how often you are put into the position to, and choose to use them. But when the flashes are there - the skills are there. You don't 'get hot' or 'get lucky' and bust out a dropstep spin move for a layup. If you do it, that means you have the ability to do it. That means you have that skill. Coaching, system, motor, teammates will define how often you can pull it off and how effective you can utilize it - but when its there its there.

ChiSox219
09-22-2013, 02:05 PM
Moreso than Durant? I wonder tho, how do we separate the length and height advantage Durant has on just about everyone from his shot making ability? Does it even matter? It is a skill relative to his own talent.

Nah, my bad, I didnt even consider KD as a young player, too many scoring titles already I guess :shrug:. But isn't using your length and height a skill? We've seen guys crazy athletic guys barely hang on to a roster spot or wash out completely.

I think KD's playing basketball like he's already a top 10 all-timer, so maybe take my insights on him with a grain. Just want to point out Dirk gets a lot of credit for his post game and KD basically copied it, finishing 7th in the NBA in Post Offense PPP (Dirk was 9th).

ThuglifeJ
09-22-2013, 02:51 PM
How can people misinterpret the word skill??????????? He's talking skills people skills... shooting is a skill, dribbling is a skill, passing is a skill...

you can't choose people that lack one of the three like LeBron, Paul, Rose or Duncan who can't shoot. (don't tell me high FG% counts... FT% and 3PT% reflects shooting ability way more.

IF YOU CAN'T SHOOT OR AREN'T A GREAT SHOOTER, YOU CAN'T BE CONSIDERED MOST SKILLED.

So you have to start with the best shooters, since shooting is the most basic fundamental skill of basketball, and then dribbling and finally passing.

Curry clearly has more skill than any player. Kyrie Irving is the only other player who can shoot, dribble and pass close to Curry's level. Lillard is pretty skilled too. Tony Parker is extremely skilled but lacks a bit of range. Kobe has tremendous skill for a 2-guard, but others have more skill at shooting, dribbling, passing.

I'm with you on being annoyed. but skill also refers to more than just that. There's tons of shooting aspects and skills. 3 pt set shooting. Shooting off dribble, skill with fakes, step back fadeaways, post up fades, different crossovers, adjusting ability in layups/ moves. Etc etc

If you're gonna call everyone out at least go in detail.


And I agree on Curry. But...at least bring up Chris Paul's name whos equally as skilled. And that's coming from a CP hater

b@llhog24
09-22-2013, 03:02 PM
Not at all. Melo is a hell of a passer, for a size he has tremendous handles, and he can move his feet laterally as good as anyone his size not named LeBron James.

Now, does he maximize those skills or utilize them effectively all the time? No. Doesn't mean the skills aren't there.

He can throw some sick passes from time to time (the no look pass to Nene is probably my fav from him) but I don't really think much of him as a passer/offense initiator (in reference to his ball-handling). In fact, isn't that what a ton of Knick fans were complaining about? The Melo needs someone to bring the ballup and setup the offense or else he'll turn it over like crazy?

b@llhog24
09-22-2013, 03:05 PM
Btw Harden draws contact in multitude of ways,

D-Leethal
09-22-2013, 03:23 PM
He can throw some sick passes from time to time (the no look pass to Nene is probably my fav from him) but I don't really think much of him as a passer/offense initiator (in reference to his ball-handling). In fact, isn't that what a ton of Knick fans were complaining about? The Melo needs someone to bring the ballup and setup the offense or else he'll turn it over like crazy?

You don't need to think of him as a frequent passer to acknowledge the fact that he can pass and has good court vision for a dude his size.


Btw Harden draws contact in multitude of ways,

And if the game wasn't refereed the way it is, he would be more focused on finishing around the rim in a multitude of ways instead of getting trips to the FT line by any means necessary.

mrblisterdundee
09-22-2013, 03:23 PM
LeBron James seems like the obvious answer.

b@llhog24
09-22-2013, 03:30 PM
You don't need to think of him as a frequent passer to acknowledge the fact that he can pass and has good court vision for a dude his size.

Sure. Still means I won't think much of him as a passer. We'll agree to disagree though.


And if the game wasn't refereed the way it is, he would be more focused on finishing around the rim in a multitude of ways instead of getting trips to the FT line by any means necessary.

Maybe, but wouldn't that make him a more effective player? Cause I wouldn't see why you constantly harp on that point if he'd be worse off just attacking the rim constantly rather than trying to get the best shot available to him.

ewing
09-22-2013, 04:42 PM
As far as modern skills go, being able to shoot the 3 ball off the dribble has become a valuable skill. I look at guys like Kyrie and Harden and I don't know how you stop them with the monster screen setters they will play with this year. You are going to see Kyrie/Harden get good looks coming off the PnR, and while that off the dribble 3 is not an easy shot, we know it's a really dangerous weapon if you perfect it like Steve Nash.

I think harden game is pretty old school

ewing
09-22-2013, 04:52 PM
Not at all. Melo is a hell of a passer, for a size he has tremendous handles, and he can move his feet laterally as good as anyone his size not named LeBron James.

Now, does he maximize those skills or utilize them effectively all the time? No. Doesn't mean the skills aren't there.

Melo is competent passer. He is a excellent shooter, great on catch and shoot, stand still, and coming off screens, plus he can shoot it off the dribble. He is absolutely elite with foot work both in the post and on the drive. He is a competent defender with the skills to be a bit better. He is a great ball handler for his size. Is not a great rebounder and doesn't move great without the ball. He should definitely be in the discussion

5ass
09-22-2013, 05:14 PM
in todays NBA, should we consider flopping a skill?

Chronz
09-22-2013, 07:03 PM
Why only defense? Because I feel passing is more about IQ than effort and because stars tend to conserve energy on that end for their offense. And in Melo's case, hes done this alot throughout his career so if anything, he should have more energy for offense(not to mention the light minutes an out of shape Melo has been gifted), yet throughout his career, hes been a mediocre (at best) playmaker overall. Good passer out of the post tho but he rarely makes the kind of skip passes that Tmac and Bron made in their sleep. THATS great court vision, when its a NATURAL part of your game that its not even a struggle to utilize it as part of your game.



The same tendency to not give 110% on defense for 48 minutes can't also occur for not wanting to pass the ball?
Players tend to play with more effort when they have the ball, its when they become an afterthought that their offensive effort lags IMO. And my greater point is that the truly great passers make those passes EFFORTLESSLY. They dont need to diminish their games to such a degree in order to utilize the skill at an impressive rate. The harder you have to try to get something done, the less good you are at it in my book.


His not wanting to pass the ball is a result of his tunnel vision, there have been many games where I felt he missed the open man or held onto the ball alil longer than required.



And the fact that Melo's overall game took a hit when he was asked to be a playmaker doesn't mean he is not a capable playmaker - it means when he's being asked to step out of his comfort zone as a player and focus on setting others up it subtracts from his mojo - which is being a natural born isolation scorer.
I disagree, if being asked to create for others is such a chore for you that it takes away from your overall game and produces middling (at best) results, I dont see how hes a capable playmaker. If he were, why did he struggle when asked to create with Mike D? Why did George Karl practically beg him to play more like Tmac, to start involving his teammates more? I mean you would have a great point if he were posting great passing marks and just struggling every where else but he was basically average in that regard.



Your keep connecting skillset and overall effectiveness. Which are not two in the same. Consistency defines your overall effectiveness as a player, it doesn't define your skillset.

I disagree 100%. If your skillset is producing inconsistent results, then its not much of a skill. Its only when you've consistently shown the ability to rebound, shoot, pass that it becomes a part of your game. Maybe theres some truth in your words but certainly not to the degree where Melo is a great passer with great vision, not in my book, Ive been fortunate enough to watch truly gifted passers who accomplished it in their sleep. You can say hes an underrated passer, which I agree with because people focus on his APG alone.



But when the flashes are there - the skills are there. You don't 'get hot' or 'get lucky' and bust out a dropstep spin move for a layup. If you do it, that means you have the ability to do it. That means you have that skill. Coaching, system, motor, teammates will define how often you can pull it off and how effective you can utilize it - but when its there its there.
I dont know about that one, its not as if hes never been put in the position to create for the team, 2 coaches have now tried to instill the mentality in him and he just struggled with the consistency of it. Thats what makes a great passer, being able to consistently make reads when defenses throw different looks at you.

Hes not an awful passer, there is plenty of evidence that shows he can be an effective passer in a limited capacity, but he will never be capable of relying heavily on his passing game.

Meaze_Gibson
09-22-2013, 08:09 PM
Lebron is def top 5.
Him being able to pass out the post or to make the extra pass
him being able to make both left handed and right handed
him being able to knock down open threes
defensive instincts
getting low to box out taller players when he is guarding fours
He very rarely gets the ball stolen from him

If Lebron lacked super athleticism imo he would be very close to rondo with slightly less passing skills but a better jumper...But then again even Rondo has freakish athleticism so who knows.

Imo Paul Pierce, Jamal Mashburn, Tim Hardaway, Andre Miller, and Ron Artest/Stephen Jackson are some of the underrated names who have tons of skill

ewing
09-22-2013, 08:27 PM
Because I feel passing is more about IQ than effort and because stars tend to conserve energy on that end for their offense. And in Melo's case, hes done this alot throughout his career so if anything, he should have more energy for offense(not to mention the light minutes an out of shape Melo has been gifted), yet throughout his career, hes been a mediocre (at best) playmaker overall. Good passer out of the post tho but he rarely makes the kind of skip passes that Tmac and Bron made in their sleep. THATS great court vision, when its a NATURAL part of your game that its not even a struggle to utilize it as part of your game.



Players tend to play with more effort when they have the ball, its when they become an afterthought that their offensive effort lags IMO. And my greater point is that the truly great passers make those passes EFFORTLESSLY. They dont need to diminish their games to such a degree in order to utilize the skill at an impressive rate. The harder you have to try to get something done, the less good you are at it in my book.


His not wanting to pass the ball is a result of his tunnel vision, there have been many games where I felt he missed the open man or held onto the ball alil longer than required.



I disagree, if being asked to create for others is such a chore for you that it takes away from your overall game and produces middling (at best) results, I dont see how hes a capable playmaker. If he were, why did he struggle when asked to create with Mike D? Why did George Karl practically beg him to play more like Tmac, to start involving his teammates more? I mean you would have a great point if he were posting great passing marks and just struggling every where else but he was basically average in that regard.



I disagree 100%. If your skillset is producing inconsistent results, then its not much of a skill. Its only when you've consistently shown the ability to rebound, shoot, pass that it becomes a part of your game. Maybe theres some truth in your words but certainly not to the degree where Melo is a great passer with great vision, not in my book, Ive been fortunate enough to watch truly gifted passers who accomplished it in their sleep. You can say hes an underrated passer, which I agree with because people focus on his APG alone.



I dont know about that one, its not as if hes never been put in the position to create for the team, 2 coaches have now tried to instill the mentality in him and he just struggled with the consistency of it. Thats what makes a great passer, being able to consistently make reads when defenses throw different looks at you.

Hes not an awful passer, there is plenty of evidence that shows he can be an effective passer in a limited capacity, but he will never be capable of relying heavily on his passing game.

I think you both make good points. I think Melo is a better play maker then he has shown. When he is willing to play screen roll, move with out the ball, and make quick decisions he is a better play maker. He has an infatuation with "bully ball". Not that he isn't really really good at it but sometimes it just insnt the most effective offense. If he was more willing to spend fewer possession fighting for position in the post you would see a better play maker.

On the other hand, his passing is still almost always set up by how much of a threat he is to score with little space you rarely see Melo stop and take that wait dribble that lets a guy fill a lane or that creates a passing lane that wasn't there. That skill is not one that he is lacking b/c of impatience I just don't think he has quite as good a feel as a guy like LeBron.

ewing
09-22-2013, 08:42 PM
Lebron is def top 5.
Him being able to pass out the post or to make the extra pass
him being able to make both left handed and right handed
him being able to knock down open threes
defensive instincts
getting low to box out taller players when he is guarding fours
He very rarely gets the ball stolen from him

If Lebron lacked super athleticism imo he would be very close to rondo with slightly less passing skills but a better jumper...But then again even Rondo has freakish athleticism so who knows.

Imo Paul Pierce, Jamal Mashburn, Tim Hardaway, Andre Miller, and Ron Artest/Stephen Jackson are some of the underrated names who have tons of skill

The monster mash had a great game.

D-Leethal
09-22-2013, 08:47 PM
I look at skillset as the toolbox and the amount of tools you are working with. I liken the house you build with the toolbox to your overall effectiveness on the court. I think natural gifts, combinations of strength/size/speed and IQ etc. have a massive impact on your ability to build that mansion just like they do to your overall contributions on the court. I think a guy can have a much nicer toolbox with more tools but doesn't build the same house as the guy with less tools but more natural gifts. I personally think Melo probably has more shiny tools than LeBron but it doesn't stop LeBron being the horse that he is from building a much nicer house.

Now I am not saying its better to have tools because anyone would take the nicer house if confronted with a choice. I am just trying to say if were strictly saying skillset Melo is in the top 2-3 IMO and that the skillset and what you produce with that skillset are not two in the same.

D-Leethal
09-22-2013, 08:57 PM
Sure. Still means I won't think much of him as a passer. We'll agree to disagree though.

Can you pass and do you pass are two different things. In the context of this thread, can you pass is what we should be talking about.




Maybe, but wouldn't that make him a more effective player? Cause I wouldn't see why you constantly harp on that point if he'd be worse off just attacking the rim constantly rather than trying to get the best shot available to him.

I have said 100x he is smart for doing it and it does indeed make him a more effective player in the NBA. When you breakdown basketball to its core, which is what I do when were talking about things like fundamental skills, NBA officiating is irrelevant and shouldn't be involved in the discussion. Make the NBA refereeing disappear and break down the basketball skills. The way the game is officiated is a huge reason certain players thrive different in different leagues. Not all NBA studs translate well to the FIBA game, some college players actually play better in the pros than in college etc...

Now the dynamics of the competition has a lot to do with what type of players tend to thrive in different leagues but the way the game is officiated is every bit as important. That shouldn't be involved when your talking about "most skilled". Its an exploitation of the rules of that particular league. Harden's attack heavy/FT oriented style wouldn't be as successful in a league where the officiating doesn't cater towards it as much as the NBA does.

ewing
09-22-2013, 09:01 PM
I look at skillset as the toolbox and the amount of tools you are working with. I liken the house you build with the toolbox to your overall effectiveness on the court. I think natural gifts, combinations of strength/size/speed and IQ etc. have a massive impact on your ability to build that mansion just like they do to your overall contributions on the court. I think a guy can have a much nicer toolbox with more tools but doesn't build the same house as the guy with less tools but more natural gifts. I personally think Melo probably has more shiny tools than LeBron but it doesn't stop LeBron being the horse that he is from building a much nicer house.

Now I am not saying its better to have tools because anyone would take the nicer house if confronted with a choice. I am just trying to say if were strictly saying skillset Melo is in the top 2-3 IMO and that the skillset and what you produce with that skillset are not two in the same.

I agree. that Melo has better tools unless you consider size, power, speed, and leaping ability as skills. Bron still is a more naturally gifted passer and has a more natural feel for pace and player movement etc

SLY WILLIAMS
09-22-2013, 09:03 PM
When I think of skill I weight the most obvious (shooting, dribbling, passing) more than other skills that are based on size or leaping ability. Can he shoot inside? Can he shoot outside? Can he shoot with both hands? Can he dribble with both hands? Does he have good vision?

Steve Nash
Curry
David Lee (Going by past games. Have not seen him play much lately)
Durant
Kobe

Those are the guys that leap off my mind but I may have missed some.

D-Leethal
09-22-2013, 09:09 PM
I agree. that Melo has better tools unless you consider size, power, speed, and leaping ability as skills. Bron still is a more naturally gifted passer and has a more natural feel for pace and player movement etc

I consider them more natural/physical gifts - **** you are born with. Not basketball skills that you were taught, refined and eventually mastered. Your natural gifts have a giant impact on your overall impact on the game but I personally wouldn't call them skills.

ewing
09-22-2013, 09:10 PM
mike dunleavy has an excellent skill set without the power/athleticism to back it up. A young Robert Horry had a great skill set and underachieved with it. Derrick Colemen had the total package and i don't know wtf happened.

ewing
09-22-2013, 09:12 PM
Billy Owens had a skill set too

Hawkeye15
09-23-2013, 07:01 PM
Meh, you can switch around some wording and do the same personal opinion write up using selected stats about any top player, it is bspn after all. Still doesn't equate to being most skilled which is what this thread was about. Let's stay on topic guys.

not.really.

By all means, give me a write up that can possibly paint another player as better, with actual evidence included.

tredigs
09-23-2013, 07:40 PM
not.really.

By all means, give me a write up that can possibly paint another player as better, with actual evidence included.

What skills do you think Bron possesses over Cp3 that are not directly related to his speed/size/strength?

tredigs
09-23-2013, 08:30 PM
A fair way to answer this question across all positions might be to say, "who has the most skill relative to an average NBA player of similar size and physical attributes?". Lebron still sort of screws that up, but it probably makes more sense to pose it like that.

JasonJohnHorn
09-23-2013, 08:41 PM
Yeah... 'skilled'? What do you mean by skill? Depending on your definition, there could be a case for a number of players. I'd be curious to hear your reason for Curry.

It seems to me that LBJ is the most obvious answer. Durant is a better shooter.

Are we talking about shooting when we say skilled? Ability to pass without causing turnovers? Jose Calderon and Steve Nash would be at the top of the list then.

Ability to do those things and defend without committing fouls?

Rebound?

I'd got with LBJ then Durant.

tredigs
09-23-2013, 08:48 PM
Yeah... 'skilled'? What do you mean by skill? Depending on your definition, there could be a case for a number of players. I'd be curious to hear your reason for Curry.

It seems to me that LBJ is the most obvious answer. Durant is a better shooter.

Are we talking about shooting when we say skilled? Ability to pass without causing turnovers? Jose Calderon and Steve Nash would be at the top of the list then.

Ability to do those things and defend without committing fouls?

Rebound?

I'd got with LBJ then Durant.
Nash low in turnovers? Pretty regularly leads the league or is top 5 in turnovers. Maybe you're thinking of Chris Paul.

His take on Curry probably has to do with his vision/playmaking ability along with having impressive ball skills and a top 5 shot of all time.

TheIlladelph16
09-23-2013, 09:17 PM
CP3
Kobe
Bron
Timmy D

No specific order. I think Kobe, CP3 and Timmy D have specific skills that they are the best at, while Lebron is great at a lot of those things. Depends how you weigh things I guess.

Hawkeye15
09-24-2013, 12:03 AM
What skills do you think Bron possesses over Cp3 that are not directly related to his speed/size/strength?

I already stated CP3 is my answer pages ago.

My point is, I find it unreal that people credit LeBron being the best player on the planet for the past half decade because he is 6'8", 270 lbs. He is extremely skilled, and would thrive at any size.

Hawkeye15
09-24-2013, 12:05 AM
A fair way to answer this question across all positions might be to say, "who has the most skill relative to an average NBA player of similar size and physical attributes?". Lebron still sort of screws that up, but it probably makes more sense to pose it like that.

and that is why he will be continually underrated (I know, that term should never come with him) in this conversation. We haven't seen anything like him before. For his size, there hasn't been a player ever with his elite basketball skill level. His skill level is reserved for much smaller players that depend on it to live and thrive. Hence why he is the best player we have seen in 2 decades.

jstone0716
09-24-2013, 11:14 AM
1) Lebron
2) KD
3) CP3
4) Paul George
5) Stephen Curry

ILLUSIONIST^248
09-24-2013, 11:42 AM
Harden is a great player, but he plays the whistle and benefits from the trigger-happy refereeing in the modern NBA game. His style of play is tailor made for today's NBA.

Straight fundamental skills? Still Kobe.

Best post so far.

ILLUSIONIST^248
09-24-2013, 11:43 AM
I already stated CP3 is my answer pages ago.

My point is, I find it unreal that people credit LeBron being the best player on the planet for the past half decade because he is 6'8", 270 lbs. He is extremely skilled, and would thrive at any size.

Negative, Lebron thrives being the physical monster he is. Lebron would get rocked if he was a normal sized fella.

jstone0716
09-24-2013, 03:07 PM
Negative, Lebron thrives being the physical monster he is. Lebron would get rocked if he was a normal sized fella.

That's the dumbest thing I've ever read. A 6'0-6'2 Lebron would just be the best PG ever. I mean sure if you're a moron and just imagining him playing SF-PF minus 8 inches then he would get rocked ( Hell, I'd take tiny 'Bron over most SF's out there ), but Lebron minus 8 inches playing PG would still be a top 5 player all time.

tredigs
09-24-2013, 04:27 PM
That's the dumbest thing I've ever read. A 6'0-6'2 Lebron would just be the best PG ever. I mean sure if you're a moron and just imagining him playing SF-PF minus 8 inches then he would get rocked ( Hell, I'd take tiny 'Bron over most SF's out there ), but Lebron minus 8 inches playing PG would still be a top 5 player all time.
Ironically, you may have one upped him with your post. His PG skills are not even in the same tier as the best PG's of all time. Saying he'd be better than Magic at 6'0"? Get that nonsense out of here.

xxplayerxx23
09-24-2013, 04:50 PM
Melo kd Kobe Duncan Lebron kyrie Paul all come to mind

jstone0716
09-24-2013, 05:07 PM
Ironically, you may have one upped him with your post. His PG skills are not even in the same tier as the best PG's of all time. Saying he'd be better than Magic at 6'0"? Get that nonsense out of here.

Wow really? What's the point of this argument if we're just going to cut off 8 inches from the guy and then compare him as-is? So you're saying LBJ or any great for that matter... MJ, Kobe... growing up at 6'0 and playing as nothing but a PG... they wouldn't be greats at that position? We're talking intangibles in that regard. Court vision, instincts, tenacity, leadership, presence... that's what makes them so great. Not their height. So yeah, a 6'0 Lebron would be pretty scary and would rival Magic in my honest "nonsense" opinion.

tredigs
09-24-2013, 05:27 PM
Wow really? What's the point of this argument if we're just going to cut off 8 inches from the guy and then compare him as-is? So you're saying LBJ or any great for that matter... MJ, Kobe... growing up at 6'0 and playing as nothing but a PG... they wouldn't be greats at that position? We're talking intangibles in that regard. Court vision, instincts, tenacity, leadership, presence... that's what makes them so great. Not their height. So yeah, a 6'0 Lebron would be pretty scary and would rival Magic in my honest "nonsense" opinion.

Because his passing ability/instincts are nowhere near the level of a Magic Johnson, and to assume that he'd one up Magic in that regard (not to mention now giving up 8" and losing the ability to cover multiple positions defensively) is such a leap of faith. MAGIC shows us that he could be an All Time PG at 6'1", but not Lebron (he's a forward, this really isn't a knock on him), and even Magic would not be the same impact of player at that height.

Kobe at 6'0" and a PG as an all time great? No, unless he was a fundamentally different player and increased his passing/playmaking acumen a great deal, he's not in the Cp3/Stockton/Nash tier. Those guys all had incredible gifts at their position.

amos1er
09-25-2013, 02:24 AM
Negative, Lebron thrives being the physical monster he is. Lebron would get rocked if he was a normal sized fella.

It really is a joke. According to these guys Lebron has no weaknesses and can shoot lasers out of his eyes. Lol.

FlashBolt
09-25-2013, 03:34 AM
That's the dumbest thing I've ever read. A 6'0-6'2 Lebron would just be the best PG ever. I mean sure if you're a moron and just imagining him playing SF-PF minus 8 inches then he would get rocked ( Hell, I'd take tiny 'Bron over most SF's out there ), but Lebron minus 8 inches playing PG would still be a top 5 player all time.
Ironically, you may have one upped him with your post. His PG skills are not even in the same tier as the best PG's of all time. Saying he'd be better than Magic at 6'0"? Get that nonsense out of here.

It's not hard to play PG when you have Worthy and an elite center, who many regard as a better player than Magic, KAJ. At what point in Magic's career did he have the teammates of James Cavailers? Teammates made Magic a greater player than he actually was. James Cavailers teammates didn't make James the player he is today. Magic also strictly relied on passing. He wasn't as great of an offensive player as James and certainly didn't have as much of a responsibility in comparison. I wouldn't say James would be the best PG. Lots of factors fall into place such as his physique, he wouldn't be able to see over players, and the fact that the game is much slower than that of the past. Showtime relied on plays created through fast movement. I don't think Magic's impac would've been as great today.

Heediot
09-25-2013, 06:21 AM
D Rose? Nah his jumper is improving but still suspect. He gets by more on speed and athleticism then pure skill.

Heediot
09-25-2013, 06:42 AM
Watch Cp3 during his year in NO when he took them to the 2nd round and you have your answer. If he had the same legs/knees as he did before that gruesome injury, he would be challenging James year in and out for MVPs. He's getting high votes now anyway. The guy is skilled and fundamentally sound.

Paul for perimeter skill and Duncan for big man skill.

BklynKnicks3
09-25-2013, 09:12 AM
Kobe Bryant now and all time

D-Leethal
09-25-2013, 10:26 AM
I think KG has a case next to Duncan as far as bigs go. And honestly - Chris Bosh might even have a case. I still go Duncan for his unlimited array of skills in the post even if he has less handles than the other two.

ewing
09-25-2013, 01:16 PM
I think KG has a case next to Duncan as far as bigs go. And honestly - Chris Bosh might even have a case. I still go Duncan for his unlimited array of skills in the post even if he has less handles than the other two.

Have to throw Marc Gasol in there too (not sure about his brother these days)

ILLUSIONIST^248
09-25-2013, 01:41 PM
Kobe Bryant now and all time

Winner!

ILLUSIONIST^248
09-25-2013, 01:44 PM
That's the dumbest thing I've ever read. A 6'0-6'2 Lebron would just be the best PG ever. I mean sure if you're a moron and just imagining him playing SF-PF minus 8 inches then he would get rocked ( Hell, I'd take tiny 'Bron over most SF's out there ), but Lebron minus 8 inches playing PG would still be a top 5 player all time.

Terrible post. Lebron would be better than magic? slap yourslef! In what world is Lebron a top 5 player all time?

Jamiecballer
09-25-2013, 01:59 PM
Terrible post. Lebron would be better than magic? slap yourslef! In what world is Lebron a top 5 player all time?

unquestionably all of them i would think. of course there is an assumption being made that he won't drop dead tomorrow.

ddt
09-25-2013, 02:05 PM
Yeah thats why he is 40% from 3.
LeBron and Durant are the two most skilled players in NBA, because they both have the full package, Durant in a lesser way with defense and passing.


Since when did Lebron shoot 40% from 3? Last Season??? He barely got to that 40% mark.

ILLUSIONIST^248
09-25-2013, 02:26 PM
unquestionably all of them i would think. of course there is an assumption being made that he won't drop dead tomorrow.

Lebron was one shot away from another terrible performance and loss vs good competion. Lebron is the most over rated athelte of all time.

ATX
09-25-2013, 03:19 PM
Lebron was one shot away from another terrible performance and loss vs good competion. Lebron is the most over rated athelte of all time.

Like a broken record with your same old crying.

tredigs
09-25-2013, 03:28 PM
Like a broken record with your same old crying.

Ding.

5ass
09-25-2013, 03:39 PM
Lebron was one shot away from another terrible performance and loss vs good competion. Lebron is the most over rated athelte of all time.

Remember when mwp saved kobes *** with that 3? The reason ur so insecure about kobe's standings in an all time list is because subconsciously you realize lebron is better than kobe ever was or ever will be.

Goose17
09-25-2013, 04:04 PM
Lebron is the most over rated athelte of all time.

He's probably the most polarizing. But he's not overrated, he just came around in the time of social media etc so he's under the microscope constantly.

He's hands down the best player on the planet right now and it's not even close.

I don't understand why Durant isn't receiving the same B.S though. People have been bashing Lebron for years about not having any rings and only being able to win when surrounded by talent (which is a stupid argument). And yet Durant has none of that, he's been to the finals once and was dominated by Lebron. He was surrounded by talent and still is and yet nobody ever questions why he hasn't won anything or questions his ability.

Goose17
09-25-2013, 04:07 PM
Oh and the correct answer is Duncan.


Lebron is incredibly skilled, but he's not the most skilled. The thing that puts him over the top is he's bigger, faster, stronger and more versatile than anyone else.

jstone0716
09-25-2013, 05:09 PM
Because his passing ability/instincts are nowhere near the level of a Magic Johnson, and to assume that he'd one up Magic in that regard (not to mention now giving up 8" and losing the ability to cover multiple positions defensively) is such a leap of faith. MAGIC shows us that he could be an All Time PG at 6'1", but not Lebron (he's a forward, this really isn't a knock on him), and even Magic would not be the same impact of player at that height.

Kobe at 6'0" and a PG as an all time great? No, unless he was a fundamentally different player and increased his passing/playmaking acumen a great deal, he's not in the Cp3/Stockton/Nash tier. Those guys all had incredible gifts at their position.

Again - you're completely missing my point. You're just scaling the player down and not accounting for the 20 odd years he would've spent perfecting his game at a below average height. Could he have sucked and ultimately ended up as an executive chef at some 4 star restaurant in Akron? Sure. Could he have turned out to be the best point guard in NBA history? Sure he could have. It was a stupid statement to begin with and turned into an even dumber argument. The guy is 6'8.. always will be. So let's just leave it at that.

tredigs
09-25-2013, 06:13 PM
Again - you're completely missing my point. You're just scaling the player down and not accounting for the 20 odd years he would've spent perfecting his game at a below average height. Could he have sucked and ultimately ended up as an executive chef at some 4 star restaurant in Akron? Sure. Could he have turned out to be the best point guard in NBA history? Sure he could have. It was a stupid statement to begin with and turned into an even dumber argument. The guy is 6'8.. always will be. So let's just leave it at that.

I didn't miss your point at all, I know what you're getting at completely, I just 100% disagree with your conclusion that a 6'0" Lebron is the best point ever (whether or not that's all he learned to do). Agreed, stupid. Moving on.

PurpleLynch
09-25-2013, 06:47 PM
and that is why he will be continually underrated (I know, that term should never come with him) in this conversation. We haven't seen anything like him before. For his size, there hasn't been a player ever with his elite basketball skill level. His skill level is reserved for much smaller players that depend on it to live and thrive. Hence why he is the best player we have seen in 2 decades.

Two decades? So in your opinion is better that Mj?I'm just asking.

Hawkeye15
09-25-2013, 07:37 PM
Two decades? So in your opinion is better that Mj?I'm just asking.

He is the best we have seen since Jordan is what I was saying. Not better, but the best since. And honestly, a case could be made that LeBron is better than Jordan was those last 3 seasons with the Bulls (remember though, Jordan was 32-34 years old then, Bron is his peak). Is he better than the first 3-peat MJ? No, I don't think so at all. I think the margin is bigger in Jordan's favor peak wise regardless.

flea
09-25-2013, 07:43 PM
Most skilled? Probably should caveat the question with who is 2nd most today because Duncan has a stranglehold up top. CP3 may come close, but Duncan has more experience and was easily the best big man in the league last year at age 37.

ewing
09-25-2013, 08:07 PM
Waymen Tinsdale was an accomplished Jazz musician does that mean anything

carlthack
09-25-2013, 08:16 PM
Mark Hendrickson played in the NBA and in the Major Leagues, does that mean anything? Chuck Conners also played in the NBA, MLB and was an accomplished actor, how about him?

ManRam
09-25-2013, 08:19 PM
I have no idea what "skilled" really exactly is.

But I'll say JJ Redick...

Partially just to point out that being "skilled" only can get you so far (not that JJ isn't an above average player). I doubt the most "skilled" player is actually anything close to the league's best player. It's probably someone not athletically gifted and thus had to fine-tune all his skills just to get by.

Chronz
09-25-2013, 10:08 PM
I have no idea what "skilled" really exactly is.

But I'll say JJ Redick...

Partially just to point out that being "skilled" only can get you so far (not that JJ isn't an above average player). I doubt the most "skilled" player is actually anything close to the league's best player. It's probably someone not athletically gifted and thus had to fine-tune all his skills just to get by.

Thats ****ing brilliant. Why are we focusing on athletically gifted players anyways?

At the same time, you felt this way when I started a thread about the most athletically gifted players ever. Ever the contrarian

tredigs
09-26-2013, 12:44 AM
He's probably the most polarizing. But he's not overrated, he just came around in the time of social media etc so he's under the microscope constantly.

He's hands down the best player on the planet right now and it's not even close.

I don't understand why Durant isn't receiving the same B.S though. People have been bashing Lebron for years about not having any rings and only being able to win when surrounded by talent (which is a stupid argument). And yet Durant has none of that, he's been to the finals once and was dominated by Lebron. He was surrounded by talent and still is and yet nobody ever questions why he hasn't won anything or questions his ability.

Well, "The Chosen One", for one. Also, a combination of both himself and OKC improving every season (save for last year, but that's basically void due to the Westbrook injury) and never being the favorites to win the title. And he killed it in his sole finals appearance, but they were outmatched by a more veteran and more talented squad. The hate will likely start pouring in over the next year or two if they don't win though. Or at the very least, lose to the Heat in the finals (not guaranteeing the Heat will make it, but that would be the most "respectable" team to lose to if they did).

sunsfan88
09-26-2013, 04:43 AM
LeBron, CP3, Tony Parker, Marc Gasol, Harden, Hibbert, Durant

D-Leethal
09-26-2013, 09:49 AM
I have no idea what "skilled" really exactly is.

But I'll say JJ Redick...

Partially just to point out that being "skilled" only can get you so far (not that JJ isn't an above average player). I doubt the most "skilled" player is actually anything close to the league's best player. It's probably someone not athletically gifted and thus had to fine-tune all his skills just to get by.

JJ Redick doesn't even come close. Shaky handles, not much of a passer, and no go-to moves outside of a dribble pull up.

I do agree that the most skilled dude when it comes to simple fundamentals might not even be anywhere near an all star or might not even be in the NBA, but I think it should go without saying that were only talking all star caliber players here.

ManRam
09-26-2013, 12:18 PM
Thats ****ing brilliant. Why are we focusing on athletically gifted players anyways?

At the same time, you felt this way when I started a thread about the most athletically gifted players ever. Ever the contrarian

Not sure the point of this post...


I just feel that if you look at "skilled" or "athleticism" in a vacuum you aren't necessarily going to see only a list of the greatest ever spit out. I don't think that's controversial. I'm a contrarian more often than not; you are right about that.



I'll retract my JJ pick...I was just in a rush and spit out the first name I could think of. It was hyperbole much like my Joe Alexander name drop.

ILLUSIONIST^248
09-26-2013, 01:41 PM
Remember when mwp saved kobes *** with that 3? The reason ur so insecure about kobe's standings in an all time list is because subconsciously you realize lebron is better than kobe ever was or ever will be.

Metta didn't hit the most clutch shot in the history of basketball like Ray Allen, Lebron would have had god awful stats had the series ended there. Oh how people forget about Lebron padding his stats with an extra 23 points, 9 rebounds and 5 assists. Absolutely pathetic, he knew his stats and play were garbage so he pads his stats in 3/7 games. I'm not the only one to notice either. I refuse to buy into the hype, I'm an independent thinker, I don't need the media to dictate my thoughts of a player like you guys do. Lebron has always been a perennial loser before joining one of the best sports teams ever assembled. as you can see by his 0 finals wins and two bronze medals before the Heat. Real legends don't **** on thier team and join another mans team so he can get an easy pass to the finals every year, that's why all the actual legends of basketball laugh at Lebron for being a coward, Lebron will never be a top 5 player all time, He definitely could have been had he not joined two top ten players in their prime with one of the best supporting cast of all time.

NYKnickFanatic
09-26-2013, 02:00 PM
Remember when mwp saved kobes *** with that 3? The reason ur so insecure about kobe's standings in an all time list is because subconsciously you realize lebron is better than kobe ever was or ever will be.

Are you talking about the one in the Finals vs Boston? If so, I don't see how he "saved kobes ***". They were up three with like a minute to go, then MWP hit that three.

ILLUSIONIST^248
09-27-2013, 02:07 PM
I'm glad everyone stood away from my post, yet another check mate.

flea
09-27-2013, 02:11 PM
It's because everyone is so tired of how boring your baiting has gotten that they don't even care anymore. Quite a coup.

b@llhog24
09-27-2013, 03:03 PM
It's because everyone is so tired of how boring your baiting has gotten that they don't even care anymore. Quite a coup.

Pretty much.

Hawkeye15
09-27-2013, 03:14 PM
It's because everyone is so tired of how boring your baiting has gotten that they don't even care anymore. Quite a coup.

that, and I would assume a large number of people have blocked him at this point.

b@llhog24
09-27-2013, 03:23 PM
that, and I would assume a large number of people have blocked him at this point.

He's easily the worst poster I have ever seen.

ILLUSIONIST^248
09-27-2013, 03:52 PM
It's because everyone is so tired of how boring your baiting has gotten that they don't even care anymore. Quite a coup.


Pretty much.


that, and I would assume a large number of people have blocked him at this point.

Is it a coincindence that all the people who hate my opinion are the ones the are in love with Bron?

jerellh528
09-27-2013, 04:06 PM
The answer to this thread is Kobe. You can throw around names like melo, Nash, Duncan, and dirk also, if you get tired of hearing Kobe's name.

ILLUSIONIST^248
09-27-2013, 04:29 PM
The answer to this thread is Kobe. You can throw around names like melo, Nash, Duncan, and dirk also, if you get tired of hearing Kobe's name.

This close thread.

Blitzbolt
09-27-2013, 10:17 PM
Pau Gasol.but he never gets the ball.

tredigs
09-28-2013, 12:08 AM
Is it a coincindence that all the people who hate my opinion are the ones the are in love with Bron?

No, I'd venture that it's pretty much everyone at this point. You don't exactly have a way with words that commands respect.

Chronz
09-28-2013, 12:31 AM
No, I'd venture that it's pretty much everyone at this point. You don't exactly have a way with words that commands respect.

You're another "LeBronite" tho....

As are all logical thinkers

Chronz
09-28-2013, 12:32 AM
BTW is can someone breakdown LeBronite for me? Can we agree Kobephile is a far more impressive insult?

NVM: Just asked my homie, its religious right? I guess that makes it a good insult. But only if you're against religion from my brief understanding.

jerellh528
09-28-2013, 02:21 AM
BTW is can someone breakdown LeBronite for me? Can we agree Kobephile is a far more impressive insult?

NVM: Just asked my homie, its religious right? I guess that makes it a good insult. But only if you're against religion from my brief understanding.

Off topic but I prefer the term "LeBoner" it's plays on the fact that they get a chub when Lebron is mentioned and also refers to them as dickheads all in one word.

Kushed
09-28-2013, 02:34 AM
Its LeBron James and it really isn't even close haha. The dude dominates in almost every category imaginable.. That to me is "most skilled" because he has the most skills!!!! duhhh

Hawkeye15
09-28-2013, 04:02 AM
Is it a coincindence that all the people who hate my opinion are the ones the are in love with Bron?

nothing is a coincidence. The people who hate your "opinion" are just able to read, nothing more.

ILLUSIONIST^248
09-28-2013, 01:19 PM
No, I'd venture that it's pretty much everyone at this point. You don't exactly have a way with words that commands respect.
;)

Off topic but I prefer the term "LeBoner" it's plays on the fact that they get a chub when Lebron is mentioned and also refers to them as dickheads all in one word.Lol!


nothing is a coincidence. The people who hate your "opinion" are just able to read, nothing more.Who all happen to be Lebron lovers.

Chronz
09-28-2013, 03:41 PM
Off topic but I prefer the term "LeBoner" it's plays on the fact that they get a chub when Lebron is mentioned and also refers to them as dickheads all in one word.

LeBoners sounds like an improvement to me. Pass it thru

JusDBasics
09-28-2013, 04:25 PM
This has gotta be Kobe without a doubt with Chris Paul in second. Not saying LeBron is lacking skill wise, he's not. Still has room to improve but he's probably still a top 10 skilled player. Its his size, speed and athleticism that put him over the hump. Those are not considered to be "skills" in my book.

ILLUSIONIST^248
09-28-2013, 04:49 PM
This has gotta be Kobe without a doubt with Chris Paul in second. Not saying LeBron is lacking skill wise, he's not. Still has room to improve but he's probably still a top 10 skilled player. Its his size, speed and athleticism that put him over the hump. Those are not considered to be "skills" in my book.

Ding Ding Ding, we have a winner.

amos1er
09-28-2013, 08:12 PM
I'm glad everyone stood away from my post, yet another check mate.

It was checkmate for Lebron the second he became the first superstar in NBA history to take a pay cut while still in his prime to join two other superstars who were also in their primes and both drafted top five the same year as him.

amos1er
09-28-2013, 08:15 PM
Kobe is the most skilled player in the NBA today by far. The only reason he can still be a top five player in the NBA at age 35 is purely due to his advanced skill set. CP3 is second and Lebron does not belong in this conversation as he is a superior NBA player mainly due to his god given talents... i.e size and athleticism or combination of both much like Shaq was.

savvy1803
09-28-2013, 09:53 PM
For me it's Kobe and he will need them more then ever as he tries to make it back from the worst injury of his career . I believe he will make it back but only time will tell , he might need to dip into his old man game a little more ala Oliver Miller when on the block but other then that he will adapt and figure out how to score the ball like he always has .

Durant is hype
09-28-2013, 10:04 PM
Skill is getting used too loosely here,should Lebron James be penalized for maximizing his talents? Theirs plenty of players with elite athleticism(obviously not LBJ level) who for what ever reason suck at basketball. Point is athletic or not you've got to be really "SKILLED" to be the best in the NBA.

Killer court awareness,excellent shooting,sweetest cross court passes,solid rebounding, cerebral defense are all things that aren't god given,and LBJ excels in these areas.

jerellh528
09-29-2013, 02:20 AM
Skill is getting used too loosely here,should Lebron James be penalized for maximizing his talents? Theirs plenty of players with elite athleticism(obviously not LBJ level) who for what ever reason suck at basketball. Point is athletic or not you've got to be really "SKILLED" to be the best in the NBA.

Killer court awareness,excellent shooting,sweetest cross court passes,solid rebounding, cerebral defense are all things that aren't god given,and LBJ excels in these areas.

the bold is the exact reason lbj shouldnt be in the convo.

Rndy
09-29-2013, 02:24 AM
For me it's Lebron, Kevin Love, Rose.

Lebron is well Lebron

Kevin Love a healthy love is the best rebounding in the NBA and he can shoot from anywhere on the floor. Just a great offensive player who can rebound with the best of them.

Rose healthy is one of the best athletes in the game not many people are tougher to defend once he gets in the paint the way he uses the rim to protect him self is just special. I think he's going to be a very good shooter coming back as well. When all you can do is shoot you'd have to imagine that is a strength of his game and no longer a weakness.