PDA

View Full Version : Why Couldn't KG At Least Get The Wolves To The Playoffs In His Prime After 2004



Clippersfan86
09-20-2013, 12:49 AM
Something interesting I was wondering which stemmed from the discussion about KG vs Dirk. I noticed that for the 3 seasons prior to be traded to Boston at just 28, 29 and 30 years old... still in his prime he couldn't lead the Wolves to the playoffs. Now I'm aware of the mediocre talent surrounding him but has any other player that ranks so high on the all time list had this mark? Many last week said KG is the 2nd best PF all time and a top 15 player all time but this one period in his career doesn't sit well with me when ranking him.

The only other year he didn't make the playoffs was his rookie year outside of this 3 year span.

MTar786
09-20-2013, 01:06 AM
i also find that hard to believe. i always thought 05 should have been his year to finally win it all. that 04 team was really good. and the following year it blew up. funny enough the kings also sucked in 05

D_Rose1118
09-20-2013, 01:17 AM
his team sucked

FlashBolt
09-20-2013, 01:26 AM
Garnett only averaged 23 PPG, 13.5 RPG, and 5 APG for those three seasons. If you actually watched the Wolves play back then, you would understand. KG was the PG, Center, PF, SF, and SG. Everything revolved around him and if KG didn't have those KG type games, they lost. I don't think you watched KG play. There's more to this than stats, anyways. I can't believe you're still trying to argue Dirk vs KG. They are both respected HOF's, but KG is better.

abe_froman
09-20-2013, 01:36 AM
1.bad teams
2.the west was insanely stacked at that time

SPURSFAN1
09-20-2013, 01:45 AM
First time back in a long time, and I see this. lol. He just wasn't Dirk or Tim status. People keep blaming his team, but when are people going to stop slurping him? Come on. At LEAST get 8th seed.

hugepatsfan
09-20-2013, 01:46 AM
04-05 they finished 1 game out in a stacked Western conference. It's a fair criticism for this one season. They didn't have enough to be anything other than an easy out in round 1 but it's fair to have expected them to at least make the playoffs.

The two years after that though his teams just sucked around him. Couldn't have expected him to lead those squads to the playoffs at all.

SPURSFAN1
09-20-2013, 01:53 AM
04-05 they finished 1 game out in a stacked Western conference. It's a fair criticism for this one season. They didn't have enough to be anything other than an easy out in round 1 but it's fair to have expected them to at least make the playoffs.

The two years after that though his teams just sucked around him. Couldn't have expected him to lead those squads to the playoffs at all.

I agree with you on the first part, but people talk like he was TD status. TD for the first ten years of his career could make the Bobcats into playoff contenders. He would make those timberwolves teams into champions. We used to just throw it to duncan, and he would get us going everytime.

hugepatsfan
09-20-2013, 01:58 AM
I agree with you on the first part, but people talk like he was TD status. TD for the first ten years of his career could make the Bobcats into playoff contenders. He would make those timberwolves teams into champions. We used to just throw it to duncan, and he would get us going everytime.

That's a pretty huge exaggeration on your part. If TD is a 10/10, KG is a 9/10. KG is only slightly behind TD on pretty much every stat. You can choose to believe that if you want or you can just go with the biased opinion you have of the best player in your franchise's history.

SPURSFAN1
09-20-2013, 02:29 AM
That's a pretty huge exaggeration on your part. If TD is a 10/10, KG is a 9/10. KG is only slightly behind TD on pretty much every stat. You can choose to believe that if you want or you can just go with the biased opinion you have of the best player in your franchise's history.

LOl Tim duncan would be any teams best player ever not named lakers celtics or bulls. lol thats 27 teams lol. dude you trippin. Some players just know how to win more than others.

ThuglifeJ
09-20-2013, 02:33 AM
Not being biased. Duncan is a 10/10, then KG an 8.75, Dirk an 8.7

People act like Dirk didn't carry a ringless team, while making bigger shots then either of them have in crunch time AS the major underdog team to will a championship. What Dirk did in 2011 was very underrated.

hugepatsfan
09-20-2013, 02:34 AM
LOl Tim duncan would be any teams best player ever not named lakers celtics or bulls. lol thats 27 teams lol. dude you trippin. Some players just know how to win more than others.

Not saying he wouldn't be. You just put him on a pedestal that even someone as great as him doesn't belong on because you're a biased Spurs fan. I agree TD is better but if you think the difference between him and KG is non playoff team to Championship than flat out you're a moron.

hugepatsfan
09-20-2013, 02:36 AM
Not being biased. Duncan is a 10/10, then KG an 8.75, Dirk an 8.7

People act like Dirk didn't carry a ringless team, while making bigger shots then either of them have in crunch time AS the major underdog team to will a championship. What Dirk did in 2011 was very underrated.

Yeah his 2011 run was an all time performance. Doesn't make up for KG and TD being better more complete players throughout their careers. KG is a notch below TD and Dirk is another notch below that.

bearadonisdna
09-20-2013, 02:37 AM
IMO KG is a top 2 pf of all time. I would say Duncan and Malone are.

hugepatsfan
09-20-2013, 02:39 AM
Duncan and Malone are the top 2 pFs.

I think Malone, KG and Barley are a notch below TD but I'd have Malone third.

tredigs
09-20-2013, 02:39 AM
The 05/06 and 06/07 Wolves squads would have made strong runs at the worst record in NBA history if not for Garnett, so there is that.

hugepatsfan
09-20-2013, 02:43 AM
The 05/06 and 06/07 Wolves squads would have made strong runs at the worst record in NBA history if not for Garnett, so there is that.

If they had Duncan instead though they would won the title.

SPURSFAN1
09-20-2013, 02:49 AM
If they had Duncan instead though they would won the title.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nejQMtkyLgY
go to 9:30
"he lead his team in points rebounds assist blocksfor the entire series"
almost a quadruple double.

He makes those scrub teams into champions. winning is his pedigree.

beasted86
09-20-2013, 02:52 AM
Garnett only averaged 23 PPG, 13.5 RPG, and 5 APG for those three seasons. If you actually watched the Wolves play back then, you would understand. KG was the PG, Center, PF, SF, and SG. Everything revolved around him and if KG didn't have those KG type games, they lost. I don't think you watched KG play. There's more to this than stats, anyways. I can't believe you're still trying to argue Dirk vs KG. They are both respected HOF's, but KG is better.
Everything here... but it is clear he is a younger fan.

tredigs
09-20-2013, 03:24 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nejQMtkyLgY
go to 9:30
"he lead his team in points rebounds assist blocksfor the entire series"
almost a quadruple double.

He makes those scrub teams into champions. winning is his pedigree.

lol - look at 06/07 in Minny. Garnett led them in points, rebounds, blocks, steals, Offensive Rating, Defensive Rating, and was 2nd in assists (0.7 behind the "pg"). That didn't matter. They were too awful and had weak coaching.

The Spurs were a "Scrub" team that had great young talent (as proven by both Manu and TP budding into Hall of Famers) as well as a great veteran in D. Rob. Not to mention, a top 5 coach in NBA history. edit: Oh yeah, and a top 5 wing defender in NBA history.

Slightly different then a perennial losing organization whose #2 was Ricky Davis and cycled through coaches mid-season, per chance? Stop being an annoying little troll. People aren't arguing Garnett over Duncan, but let's not act like it's a massive chasm.

Chronz
09-20-2013, 03:45 AM
Garnett only averaged 23 PPG, 13.5 RPG, and 5 APG for those three seasons. If you actually watched the Wolves play back then, you would understand. KG was the PG, Center, PF, SF, and SG. Everything revolved around him and if KG didn't have those KG type games, they lost. I don't think you watched KG play. There's more to this than stats, anyways. I can't believe you're still trying to argue Dirk vs KG. They are both respected HOF's, but KG is better.
Who were you directing this post to? Where did he mention any numbers so you could trot out the there is more to this than stats, I wonder because your the first guy I've seen post any kind of per game averages and such. Certainly no numbers in the op. All around an awful post.

Chronz
09-20-2013, 03:45 AM
Garnett only averaged 23 PPG, 13.5 RPG, and 5 APG for those three seasons. If you actually watched the Wolves play back then, you would understand. KG was the PG, Center, PF, SF, and SG. Everything revolved around him and if KG didn't have those KG type games, they lost. I don't think you watched KG play. There's more to this than stats, anyways. I can't believe you're still trying to argue Dirk vs KG. They are both respected HOF's, but KG is better.
Everything here... but it is clear he is a younger fan.
Lmfao

SPURSFAN1
09-20-2013, 03:48 AM
lol - look at 06/07 in Minny. Garnett led them in points, rebounds, blocks, steals, Offensive Rating, Defensive Rating, and was 2nd in assists (0.7 behind the "pg"). That didn't matter. They were too awful and had weak coaching.

The Spurs were a "Scrub" team that had great young talent (as proven by both Manu and TP budding into Hall of Famers) as well as a great veteran in D. Rob. Not to mention, a top 5 coach in NBA history. edit: Oh yeah, and a top 5 wing defender in NBA history.

Slightly different then a perennial losing organization whose #2 was Ricky Davis and cycled through coaches mid-season, per chance? Stop being an annoying little troll. People aren't arguing Garnett over Duncan, but let's not act like it's a massive chasm.

if lebron can carry that sorry as cleveland team. PRIME TD carries the ****ing timberwolves to a championship.

bagwell368
09-20-2013, 06:18 AM
I agree with you on the first part, but people talk like he was TD status. TD for the first ten years of his career could make the Bobcats into playoff contenders. He would make those timberwolves teams into champions. We used to just throw it to duncan, and he would get us going everytime.

You are not isolating KG and TD from their teams well enough, from the time they became elite players and counting 10 years, the difference is very small and both step on any other #4 all time.

Also Dirk isn't 3rd on the list. He's 5th at best.

Badluck33
09-20-2013, 06:42 AM
His team sucked and the West was packed full of deep teams.

natelpete
09-20-2013, 08:36 AM
First time back in a long time, and I see this. lol. He just wasn't Dirk or Tim status. People keep blaming his team, but when are people going to stop slurping him? Come on. At LEAST get 8th seed.


I agree with you on the first part, but people talk like he was TD status. TD for the first ten years of his career could make the Bobcats into playoff contenders. He would make those timberwolves teams into champions. We used to just throw it to duncan, and he would get us going everytime.


LOl Tim duncan would be any teams best player ever not named lakers celtics or bulls. lol thats 27 teams lol. dude you trippin. Some players just know how to win more than others.


if lebron can carry that sorry as cleveland team. PRIME TD carries the ****ing timberwolves to a championship.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nejQMtkyLgY
go to 9:30
"he lead his team in points rebounds assist blocksfor the entire series"
almost a quadruple double.

He makes those scrub teams into champions. winning is his pedigree.

Good job working Tim Duncan in to the conversation and making this about him. Thanks

KobeOwnSU
09-20-2013, 08:51 AM
Duncan, Malone, and Barkley are all ahead of kg for me but I have him above dirk. My top five pf's all time would be Duncan, Malone, Barkley, KG, Dirk.

DallasTrilla23
09-20-2013, 09:45 AM
It's a team game, KG had to do everything for the team and it still wasn't enough. The west was stacked too.

JNA17
09-20-2013, 09:55 AM
1. The Western Conference for the last decade or so has been stacked like crazy. It's not like the Eastern Conference where being under .500 or having one really good player can get you in the playoffs (examples: 2001 Sixers and Raptors, 2007 Cavs, that year the Bobcats made the playoffs, etc).

2. The Wolves through 2006-2007 really did have god awful teammates in those years. There was almost nothing KG could have done to make that team any better. I dislike KG but that guy was a freaking animal.

3. KG>Dirk. Duncan>KG. Happy?

FlashBolt
09-20-2013, 10:13 AM
Who were you directing this post to? Where did he mention any numbers so you could trot out the there is more to this than stats, I wonder because your the first guy I've seen post any kind of per game averages and such. Certainly no numbers in the op. All around an awful post.

I was simply stating the obvious, KG's stats for those three years. OP tried to blame it on KG but it's hard to deny what KG had to do for that team. I'm sorry you couldn't analyze the information better. Clearly it was directed towards the OP since he didn't realize what KG put up each and every game. I said there are more than stats because if you watched KG play in those years, he was pretty much their driving force in every aspect of the game. There was literally nothing he didn't do. All around, it was an awful post from your part. You didn't add anything but decided to quote me to speak your mind.


I agree with you on the first part, but people talk like he was TD status. TD for the first ten years of his career could make the Bobcats into playoff contenders. He would make those timberwolves teams into champions. We used to just throw it to duncan, and he would get us going everytime.

I'm sorry but no one here mentioned KG in Duncan's level until you brought it up. It's always you who brings Duncan up because as a Spurs fan and him being in a PF position, you feel entitled to always mention Duncan.
At the end of the day, you just need to realize that not everything is about the Spurs. Of course Tim is better than 27 other teams... He's a top 10, arguably top 5 player. There's not many to choose against since you removed Magic, Kareem, Shaq, Jordan, and Bird.

IndyRealist
09-20-2013, 10:17 AM
Really? KG was as effective as any big man in the NBA at the time. It had nothing to do with his game.

A thousand things happened to the Wolves to keep them from succeeding. Garnett signed a 6yr, $126M contract, then there was the '99 lockout which instituted max salaries and a restrictive salary cap. Stephon Marbury demanded to be traded. The Joe Smith deal with nixed by the NBA for collusion, costing the Wolves 3 future first round draft picks. Latrell Sprewell left. Sam Cassell got traded. Wally Szerbiak fell off the face of the planet.

They had no draft picks. They had no cap space. The talent they did have either regressed or left the team. They were slowly drained of any supporting cast whatsoever. The fact that they were in the playoffs at all in 2004, let alone a top seed and getting to the WCF without a PG, is a testament to his ability to carry a team.

I'm a huge KG hater, as you can see here (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?310195-Vote-For-Yi&highlight=vote). But he absolutely deserves every accolate he's ever gotten, including MVP. He was a transcendent talent in Minny and was hamstrung by events outside his control.

SanAntonioSpurs23
09-20-2013, 10:25 AM
if lebron can carry that sorry as cleveland team. PRIME TD carries the ****ing timberwolves to a championship.

Dude..... stop. You're making Spurs fans look like ****ing idiots

SpeeMN
09-20-2013, 10:33 AM
Sprewell didn't have enough money to feed his family.
We traded Brandon Roy for Randy Foye.
We drafted Brewer over Noah.
Ricky Davis was our 'go to' guy for some time there.
We cycled through coached and kept hiring a worse one than before.

Think about KG and Duncan switching situations for their entire careers. Both are loyal and a hell of alot better than anyone else out there. KG and Duncan are on a level of their own, no need to find an opinionated #1.

todu82
09-20-2013, 10:43 AM
Garnett couldn't do it all himself. What he did though for those Minnesota teams is to be honoured.

bagwell368
09-20-2013, 11:07 AM
Duncan, Malone, and Barkley are all ahead of kg for me but I have him above dirk. My top five pf's all time would be Duncan, Malone, Barkley, KG, Dirk.

Malone on paper looks pretty tough to beat. He was a better scorer than KG, but KG was a much better passer and defender, and Malone has a very hard to live down post season record. KG had a far bigger impact on the 2007-2008 Celts than any team Malone was on. He's 4th

Barkley scored more and with superb efficiency, but his D was weak - it really was. Good passer, one tier below KG, excellent rebounder. His numbers are stoked by playing on a larger number of 50+ win teams that KG did. He's 3rd

Dirk is being judged against these guys, but he's still playing, he's just entering the twilight of his career and his averages/rates are going to drop, and his D isn't going to get any better. It's possible he could claw his way to 3rd if he can beat the actuarial tables.

It's

TD
KG *

CB
KM
DN

* KG is close, both still playing but ranking unlikely to change, remember put away the Win Shares and look at the guys. TD, more productive low post scorer (although KG was real good at it, he didn't do a lot of it), excellent defender, but he was a defender of 4's and most 5's. KG could handle some of the smaller 5's just fine, all the 4's, and a good deal of the 3's, which TD didn't although he was called on in help D usually. KG seems to me to be the more intense, better on ball, and majestically quick to react correctly in his low post D on broken assignments. TD seemed a bit more meat and potatoes. Close, but edge KG. KG better passer and ball handler. KG better long range shooter. I'll go with KG as better in one year peak, but TD takes the 5 year peak (however much of it due to his teams).

So you want a 5/4, TD is the guy, you want a 4/(5/3) than KG is certainly a defensible choice, maybe the better choice.

You want to lift a team glued together in one off season with a defensive maniac, one possessed of almost illogically passionate/implacable fire - KG is the guy. TD is the gentleman, spokesman, nice guy. Maybe it's just me, but I always loved the rip snorting win at all cost guys that played for my team like Cowens, Bird, and Garnett. I don't want them to kiss at half court, and visit each other yachts in the off season and have soiree's, I want nasty, tough, smart play, and if they lose I expect them to feel bad, and spend time figuring out what is needed to win next time, not getting a manicure. Now I don't think TD is effete, but he's not a heart on the sleeve guy like KG either, and that's not neccessarily to TD's advantage at all - IMO.

The next 3 guys great as they are (and McHale the 6th) don't belong in this conversation of who is #1 and #2.

bagwell368
09-20-2013, 11:08 AM
Dude..... stop. You're making Spurs fans look like ****ing idiots

Word.

Heatcheck
09-20-2013, 11:11 AM
First time back in a long time, and I see this. lol. He just wasn't Dirk or Tim status. People keep blaming his team, but when are people going to stop slurping him? Come on. At LEAST get 8th seed.

If it wasn't for that FO getting him Manu, TP, or the fact that DAVID ROBINSON was on the team he got drafted to, we'd be talking about Tim Duncan the same way. And Dallas has been slinging money around like theyre Real Madrid since 2000.

Not Dirk or Tims status HA! as if he were avg 16 ppg, or they were averaging triple doubles.

dnl123
09-20-2013, 11:37 AM
First time back in a long time, and I see this. lol. He just wasn't Dirk or Tim status. People keep blaming his team, but when are people going to stop slurping him? Come on. At LEAST get 8th seed.

Is it your first time back because you finally got over the NBA Finals? haha

You're an idiot if you think prime Dirk was better than prime KG was. There's no other way to put it. Go do some research.

Clippersfan86
09-20-2013, 11:38 AM
Bolt is a man of many assumptions. I started watching the NBA in 96 actually, during KG's rookie year and watched his entire career. Not extensively as I was not a Wolves fan but I did love his game and he was one of my favorite players so I watched whenever televised. I loved watching his battles with Brand, Webber and TD in the west over the years. I forgot how brutal the west was in 05 actually.

Although after 05 in the remaining two years in Minny KG got just 32 and 33 wins and the west was less stacked after a huge drop off for those two years. So I agree with Pats when you dig deeper the first year he missed it's not hard to see if you look at the fact that 5 or 6 teams in the west won 50+ games. But the very next year just 3 teams in the west won 50 games and the 8th seed won just 44.

I KNOW KG was a transcendent player and a monster, I just was wanting some opinions on this matter.

Hawkeye15
09-20-2013, 12:20 PM
04-05 they finished 1 game out in a stacked Western conference. It's a fair criticism for this one season. They didn't have enough to be anything other than an easy out in round 1 but it's fair to have expected them to at least make the playoffs.

The two years after that though his teams just sucked around him. Couldn't have expected him to lead those squads to the playoffs at all.

That was also the year Sam and Spree mailed it in because they weren't getting lucrative contract extensions. Sam also missed more than 30 games due to injury, and looked terrible throughout most of the year.

KG may have had a better year in that season than he did in his MVP year, but his teammates either sucked, or didn't show up to the party.

D-Leethal
09-20-2013, 12:29 PM
The West during the 2000s was one of the most stacked conferences in history. Pretty sure in 2008 the Warriors didn't even make the playoffs with 50 wins. Its not like he just had to muster up 42 wins and make the playoffs like you could in the East.

FlashBolt
09-20-2013, 12:40 PM
Bolt is a man of many assumptions. I started watching the NBA in 96 actually, during KG's rookie year and watched his entire career. Not extensively as I was not a Wolves fan but I did love his game and he was one of my favorite players so I watched whenever televised. I loved watching his battles with Brand, Webber and TD in the west over the years. I forgot how brutal the west was in 05 actually.

Although after 05 in the remaining two years in Minny KG got just 32 and 33 wins and the west was less stacked after a huge drop off for those two years. So I agree with Pats when you dig deeper the first year he missed it's not hard to see if you look at the fact that 5 or 6 teams in the west won 50+ games. But the very next year just 3 teams in the west won 50 games and the 8th seed won just 44.

I KNOW KG was a transcendent player and a monster, I just was wanting some opinions on this matter.

Is this a lie? If you truly did watch those games, you wouldn't have asked this ludicrous question.

bagwell368
09-20-2013, 01:19 PM
Is this a lie? If you truly did watch those games, you wouldn't have asked this ludicrous question.

Not quite IMO. More like altering the script to gain credence as a veteran fan one hand and a sage, but not knee jerk fan of KG on the other.

It matters not if you are right, or I am right, or the truth is in some middle ground. Clearly putting this post next to some of the others from 2-4 weeks ago, it's clear to see there are major inconsistencies...

He's also avoided a number of my posts in the infamous KG/Dirk thread (such as #251, #254, and #351). Most recently #351, the latest nuanced post by me trying to get him to flesh out what he knows about Win Shares, sample size and other issues.

Oops, Jack hit the road, cause he got jack s_it.

3...2...1... FLUSH !

kdspurman
09-20-2013, 01:19 PM
Dude..... stop. You're making Spurs fans look like ****ing idiots

I 2nd that... just keep on the topic SPURSFAN1, don't make it about TD or anyone else for that matter. :)

DoMeFavors
09-20-2013, 01:34 PM
The WEST was so good it was the best 1-8 seeds probably in history. Kobe couldnt even make the playoffs one of those years

Jamiecballer
09-20-2013, 01:36 PM
in 2004 they barely missed out and here is why

Latrell Sprewell
Michael Olowokandi
Trenton Hassell
Troy Hudson
Anthony Carter
Mark Madsen
Ervin Johnson

everyone one of those fools played significant minutes for the wolves in 2004 and the best (THE BEST!!) PER in the group is 12.1(!!)

Jamiecballer
09-20-2013, 01:46 PM
2005 and 2006 it's just good for a laugh, looking at those rosters

Marcus Banks, Mark Blount, Trenton Hassell all played 27.5+ mins a game!!!!

One of the games true superstars was playing with a genuine expansion roster.

Clippersfan86
09-20-2013, 01:50 PM
2005 and 2006 it's just good for a laugh, looking at those rosters

Marcus Banks, Mark Blount, Trenton Hassell all played 27.5+ mins a game!!!!

One of the games true superstars was playing with a genuine expansion roster.

Didn't stop guys like CP3, Lebron and Tmac from carrying highly mediocre into the playoffs. 32 and 33 wins is LAUGHABLE. Even rookie Blake Griffin with Gordon missing 30 games, Kaman missing 50 and BD missing a ton led the Clippers to 32 wins when the west was just as tough as the 32 and 33 win years of KG.

Clippersfan86
09-20-2013, 01:53 PM
Not quite IMO. More like altering the script to gain credence as a veteran fan one hand and a sage, but not knee jerk fan of KG on the other.

It matters not if you are right, or I am right, or the truth is in some middle ground. Clearly putting this post next to some of the others from 2-4 weeks ago, it's clear to see there are major inconsistencies...

He's also avoided a number of my posts in the infamous KG/Dirk thread (such as #251, #254, and #351). Most recently #351, the latest nuanced post by me trying to get him to flesh out what he knows about Win Shares, sample size and other issues.

Oops, Jack hit the road, cause he got jack s_it.

3...2...1... FLUSH !

Do you have a life? Serious question. You really care a lot about this. I expect a guy in his 50's or 60's as you said to have matured a lot more than this by now, but some never do I guess. You can stay winning the internet, I'll win at real life. I didn't dodge anything in that thread. I said my piece, you said yours... I agreed to disagree. It was clear you weren't going to be reasonable and come off your pedestal and I don't care enough about the topic to debate for weeks. You won though! Let's get out the internet trophy.

DoMeFavors
09-20-2013, 02:14 PM
Didn't stop guys like CP3, Lebron and Tmac from carrying highly mediocre into the playoffs. 32 and 33 wins is LAUGHABLE. Even rookie Blake Griffin with Gordon missing 30 games, Kaman missing 50 and BD missing a ton led the Clippers to 32 wins when the west was just as tough as the 32 and 33 win years of KG.

basketball is a team sport, its not a one player sport. KG is a PF/c he couldnt carry the ball up the floor everytime like a guard or SF can.

Chronz
09-20-2013, 02:25 PM
Who were you directing this post to? Where did he mention any numbers so you could trot out the there is more to this than stats, I wonder because your the first guy I've seen post any kind of per game averages and such. Certainly no numbers in the op. All around an awful post.

I was simply stating the obvious, KG's stats for those three years. OP tried to blame it on KG but it's hard to deny what KG had to do for that team. I'm sorry you couldn't analyze the information better. Clearly it was directed towards the OP since he didn't realize what KG put up each and every game. I said there are more than stats because if you watched KG play in those years, he was pretty much their driving force in every aspect of the game. There was literally nothing he didn't do. All around, it was an awful post from your part. You didn't add anything but decided to quote me to speak your mind.

I just dont see the point of discrediting the very numbers you initially point out. Your post does nothing to attack the ops stance, just my opinion tho.

You basically used every known cliche to spew alot of nothing. Im not convinced you watched kg any more than anyone else, more importantly simply watching 1 player wouldn't prove anything.

bholly
09-20-2013, 02:30 PM
I KNOW KG was a transcendent player and a monster, I just was wanting some opinions on this matter.

If a team is awful enough, even a great player can't lead them anywhere. He isn't the only great to miss the playoffs in his prime - Kobe ('05), Hakeem ('92), Barkley ('88), Wade ('08), etc.
Of course there are guys who never missed the playoffs, but many of them also never really had bad teams.
KG had a really bad team those three years. Really really bad. That's what happened.

Clippersfan86
09-20-2013, 02:35 PM
Kobe missed it once though, not 3 straight years. You're giving one year samples for each Holly I'm asking if others have had 3 consecutive years missed and maybe more importantly been on 32 and 33 win teams in their prime (while being healthy those two years and playing 75+ games). Lebron's Cavs rosters were pretty horrendous early in his career too.

bholly
09-20-2013, 02:40 PM
Didn't stop guys like CP3, Lebron and Tmac from carrying highly mediocre into the playoffs. 32 and 33 wins is LAUGHABLE. Even rookie Blake Griffin with Gordon missing 30 games, Kaman missing 50 and BD missing a ton led the Clippers to 32 wins when the west was just as tough as the 32 and 33 win years of KG.

Sure it did. Orlando won 21 games - worst in the league - in 2004, when TMac was All-NBA 2nd team and won the scoring title by more than 3 ppg. He was out for part of the season, but still played 67 games.

Also 'they took mediocre teams to the playoffs so why didn't he?' is a huge oversimplification. There are different degrees of mediocrity, and different situations (ie the strength of the conference, etc) to take into account. There's no way of knowing whether CP3 or LBJ or others would've taken those Wolves teams to the playoffs.

Clippersfan86
09-20-2013, 02:42 PM
Sure it did. Orlando won 21 games - worst in the league - in 2004, when TMac was All-NBA 2nd team and won the scoring title by more than 3 ppg. He was out for part of the season, but still played 67 games.

Also 'they took mediocre teams to the playoffs so why didn't he?' is a huge oversimplification. There are different degrees of mediocrity, and different situations (ie the strength of the conference, etc) to take into account. There's no way of knowing whether CP3 or LBJ or others would've taken those Wolves teams to the playoffs.

I agree, there is no way to prove it. Just saying 32 and 33 wins seems low for a guy that good. I admit 2004 Magic is a good example of error in my post. I forgot about just HOW bad the Magic were that year. I guess I just thought KG could get more than 33 wins in his prime.

bholly
09-20-2013, 02:45 PM
Kobe missed it once though, not 3 straight years. You're giving one year samples for each Holly I'm asking if others have had 3 consecutive years missed and maybe more importantly been on 32 and 33 win teams in their prime (while being healthy those two years and playing 75+ games). Lebron's Cavs rosters were pretty horrendous early in his career too.

'pretty horrendous' doesn't mean equally horrendous. You can't just wave your hands and equate the situations that way.
And no, no players of KG's calibre have missed the playoffs three times AFAIK, but it's also probably true that no player of his calibre has had teams that bad for three straight years. The point is that this isn't necessarily an indictment on his individual skill.

bholly
09-20-2013, 02:49 PM
I agree, there is no way to prove it. Just saying 32 and 33 wins seems low for a guy that good. I admit 2004 Magic is a good example of error in my post. I forgot about just HOW bad the Magic were that year. I guess I just thought KG could get more than 33 wins in his prime.

The '08 Heat are a similar example. Wade missed 31 games, but they were still only 10-41 when he played, including a 1-26 stretch. They were awful. And this was with Marion, Haslem, 61 games of Shaq, and Pat Riley as their coach. It happens.

bagwell368
09-20-2013, 02:52 PM
Do you have a life? Serious question.

I'm retired, have a good amount of spare time.


You really care a lot about this. I expect a guy in his 50's or 60's as you said to have matured a lot more than this by now, but some never do I guess.

I care about everything I do. The kids in state care with educational issues I deal with, my garden, investment club, marriage, two kids... I've been getting into faux painting and building a retaining wall the past few months.

Rooting out falsehood is not a sign of immaturity, it's a sign of someone that despises them.


You can stay winning the internet, I'll win at real life.

Sure, let me know when you have to order up your 4th passport in less than 25 years because it's full of stamps from traveling with a bit of business mixed in. Or have a son that's one the best players for his D2 school in its history going back to almost 1900, or another son that's starting Varsity in two sports as a Jr. Maybe you will do better, that's fine, go for it. Doesn't mean that I'm going to stop pointing out where you are wrong to protect the innocent, and for the satisfaction of proving those that are stubbornly wrong to be wrong.


I didn't dodge anything in that thread. I said my piece, you said yours... I agreed to disagree.

Check it again, I wrote another post regarding these two threads before I read this.


It was clear you weren't going to be reasonable and come off your pedestal and I don't care enough about the topic to debate for weeks. You won though! Let's get out the internet trophy.

When one is right, the need to be reasonable has to do with social reasons, not factual. As I don't care for the person you seem to be in your posts, I see no reason to toussle your hair and say atta boy...

If you stop acting as if you started that thread with the intention of being fair, and stop arguments which have been proven to you to be unreasonable, I have nothing else to add. You want to be surreptitious and re-argue the topic as it appears you are now, then I do have something to add - as needed. Believe me, reading poorly thought out and executed posts is really annoying, I'd rather not have to be bothered.

SPURSFAN1
09-20-2013, 03:05 PM
Dude..... stop. You're making Spurs fans look like ****ing idiots

sorry man but i ain't here to make you tools feel better. i can't see how 2 spurs fans have different opinions. like they are 2 different people. mind blown.

DoMeFavors
09-20-2013, 03:09 PM
To ask the guy who made this thread, what could KG have possibly did more to get wins? He was putting up the numbers and playing 1st team all defense. What could he have done more?

SPURSFAN1
09-20-2013, 03:17 PM
To ask the guy who made this thread, what could KG have possibly did more to get wins? He was putting up the numbers and playing 1st team all defense. What could he have done more?

win. bagwell was talking about kg wearing his heart in his sleeve. well TD is that rock people look up to. You know when the going gets tough, just follow his lead. he builds up his teams through sheer will of mind. the thought that it can happen. the winning culture of tim duncan. just having him on the team gave you hope it was possible to win. when everyone is of the same mind, it's easier to work together. better than Kg picking on little guys and then getting rocked and not doing anything.

Jeffy25
09-20-2013, 03:22 PM
Maybe the NBA isn't as individual based on some are led to believe?

Was his production not team productive enough?

Was he on a team, that without him, would have been drafting first overall picks during these times?


He's also a big man, and the west was stacked.

Bostonjorge
09-20-2013, 03:30 PM
The west was to stacked where a 8th seed actually beat a 1st seed. I believe KG is better then dirk and Duncan but the rankings will always have Duncan over KG cause of his rings but not dirk.

KG would of killed it in the east like his first year there where he won a title.

If KG had 1 just 1 of the many star players that played with dirk or Duncan then KG would of never missed any playoffs. If KG had kobe then KG would of had more rings then Duncan and higher ranking.

FlashBolt
09-20-2013, 03:43 PM
Who were you directing this post to? Where did he mention any numbers so you could trot out the there is more to this than stats, I wonder because your the first guy I've seen post any kind of per game averages and such. Certainly no numbers in the op. All around an awful post.

I was simply stating the obvious, KG's stats for those three years. OP tried to blame it on KG but it's hard to deny what KG had to do for that team. I'm sorry you couldn't analyze the information better. Clearly it was directed towards the OP since he didn't realize what KG put up each and every game. I said there are more than stats because if you watched KG play in those years, he was pretty much their driving force in every aspect of the game. There was literally nothing he didn't do. All around, it was an awful post from your part. You didn't add anything but decided to quote me to speak your mind.

I just dont see the point of discrediting the very numbers you initially point out. Your post does nothing to attack the ops stance, just my opinion tho.

You basically used every known cliche to spew alot of nothing. Im not convinced you watched kg any more than anyone else, more importantly simply watching 1 player wouldn't prove anything.

Because you don't seem too bright. OP wanted to know why KG couldn't carry his team to the playoffs. I was pointing out that KG put up unquestionable numbers that should already speak for itself. Even if you didn't look at the stats, watch those games and you'll see KG literally was the team in many cases. I'm sorry you can't see that and instead of adding your point of view on the topic, you would much rather make something out of nothing.

Chronz
09-20-2013, 03:52 PM
Because you don't seem too bright. OP wanted to know why KG couldn't carry his team to the playoffs. I was pointing out that KG put up unquestionable numbers that should already speak for itself. Even if you didn't look at the stats, watch those games and you'll see KG literally was the team in many cases. I'm sorry you can't see that and instead of adding your point of view on the topic, you would much rather make something out of nothing.
Ive given my opinion on your position, to me your post read like so;

"Heres some basic numbers, those numbers dont tell the tale (meaning either side could claim their numbers over/underrating their impact), you didn't see KG play like I did and thats that....."

Thats literally what I got out of your post and Im not convinced you know the OP as well you claim. Just spewing cliches left and right and calling others none too bright...

FlashBolt
09-20-2013, 03:53 PM
Not quite IMO. More like altering the script to gain credence as a veteran fan one hand and a sage, but not knee jerk fan of KG on the other.

It matters not if you are right, or I am right, or the truth is in some middle ground. Clearly putting this post next to some of the others from 2-4 weeks ago, it's clear to see there are major inconsistencies...

He's also avoided a number of my posts in the infamous KG/Dirk thread (such as #251, #254, and #351). Most recently #351, the latest nuanced post by me trying to get him to flesh out what he knows about Win Shares, sample size and other issues.

Oops, Jack hit the road, cause he got jack s_it.

3...2...1... FLUSH !

Do you have a life? Serious question. You really care a lot about this. I expect a guy in his 50's or 60's as you said to have matured a lot more than this by now, but some never do I guess. You can stay winning the internet, I'll win at real life. I didn't dodge anything in that thread. I said my piece, you said yours... I agreed to disagree. It was clear you weren't going to be reasonable and come off your pedestal and I don't care enough about the topic to debate for weeks. You won though! Let's get out the internet trophy.

Serious question, how did you accumulate 24000 posts in one year in ISH while also having a PSB account? It is true, you are on here more than enough to view what goes on in the threads. You have no response(s) to information thrown at you and would much rather write more opinionated replies. It seems you are getting a bit insecure here. Why did you bring up one's social life in a basketball forum? Winning, for all we know, you could be in that small basement of your parents - who are probably still paying for that internet bill, which you use to brag about your "social ranking".

Jamiecballer
09-20-2013, 03:57 PM
Didn't stop guys like CP3, Lebron and Tmac from carrying highly mediocre into the playoffs. 32 and 33 wins is LAUGHABLE. Even rookie Blake Griffin with Gordon missing 30 games, Kaman missing 50 and BD missing a ton led the Clippers to 32 wins when the west was just as tough as the 32 and 33 win years of KG.

you just want to look beyond facts. to you, anybody who isn't a star caliber player is equal. with a shallow view like that i can see why you don't understand.

FlashBolt
09-20-2013, 03:58 PM
Because you don't seem too bright. OP wanted to know why KG couldn't carry his team to the playoffs. I was pointing out that KG put up unquestionable numbers that should already speak for itself. Even if you didn't look at the stats, watch those games and you'll see KG literally was the team in many cases. I'm sorry you can't see that and instead of adding your point of view on the topic, you would much rather make something out of nothing.
Ive given my opinion on your position, to me your post read like so;

"Heres some basic numbers, those numbers dont tell the tale (meaning either side could claim their numbers over/underrating their impact), you didn't see KG play like I did and thats that....."

Thats literally what I got out of your post and Im not convinced you know the OP as well you claim. Just spewing cliches left and right and calling others none too bright...

No, no. You misunderstood everything, as you most likely do. I said if you were to ignore the stats that I posted -because they are deceiving in some cases, by watching KG's games, you would get a clear picture of exactly what he had to do each and every game and how there was nothing more he could've done. You have added nothing to this thread, stop trying to initiate another one of your pointless arguments. It's as if you enjoy arguing and purposely look for them.

Jamiecballer
09-20-2013, 03:59 PM
basketball is a team sport, its not a one player sport. KG is a PF/c he couldnt carry the ball up the floor everytime like a guard or SF can.

you would think this would be common sense, wouldn't you?

Clippersfan86
09-20-2013, 04:00 PM
Flash you seem to have a very deep personal vendetta. You're the only guy I have met on PSD that preaches about intelligence, logic, basketball knowledge, while using absolutely none of that in the process of attacking other posters. Odd character to be sure. How about you let myself and Bagwell sort things out without acting like his wife for a bit?

rjkgr
09-20-2013, 04:01 PM
hes not as good as people say. he needs piecing to make it somewhere big

FlashBolt
09-20-2013, 04:04 PM
Flash you seem to have a very deep personal vendetta. You're the only guy I have met on PSD that preaches about intelligence, logic, basketball knowledge, while using absolutely none of that in the process of attacking other posters. Odd character to be sure. How about you let myself and Bagwell sort things out without acting like his wife for a bit?

Hit the nerve there, huh? No worries, you remind me of a typical internet bully. You should be settling your differences in a private message, not a public thread for everyone to see. How about it, kiddo?

ewing
09-20-2013, 04:05 PM
Serious question, how did you accumulate 24000 posts in one year in ISH while also having a PSB account? It is true, you are on here more than enough to view what goes on in the threads. You have no response(s) to information thrown at you and would much rather write more opinionated replies. It seems you are getting a bit insecure here. Why did you bring up one's social life in a basketball forum? Winning, for all we know, you could be in that small basement of your parents - who are probably still paying for that internet bill, which you use to brag about your "social ranking".

Pet shop boys forum?

Clippersfan86
09-20-2013, 04:15 PM
Hit the nerve there, huh? No worries, you remind me of a typical internet bully. You should be settling your differences in a private message, not a public thread for everyone to see. How about it, kiddo?

I'm the one acting like a bully? I tried to let that other thread die because it was getting nowhere and was getting TOO personal. I didn't even bring up Bagwell in this thread until he wrote his usual long rant calling me out, out of the blue talking about how I dodged him in that thread last week. I asked him if he has a life because somebody who cares that much to carry on drama over multiple threads, obviously takes this very seriously and cares about the forum more than myself.

I love posting here and talking ball but if I'm arguing with people that show no inclination to at least be reasonable about things, I don't waste more time than I need to. Chronz and many others have called me out for being offensive or being incorrect and after they did we moved on like adults. I just think it's pointless and immature to drag this through multiple threads. The thing anybody who knows me will admit is that when wrong, I'll admit it and move on. Holly for example in this very thread corrected me on something and I owned up to it. That's not the same as trying to shove it down my throat that KG absolutely is better, no question.. then belittling me because I disagree.

My motive may seem bad and like it's related to the other thread but I wasn't calling anybody out in this thread, I simply didn't remember that 3 year stretch until yesterday and wanted some thoughts on it from people since most fans judge team success so harshly. Even in the other thread it's you and Bagwell who made it personal and acted "bully" like, not me. I simply gave an opinion on the matter and even gave this disclaimer that I'm not claiming it was factual. It was you guys who turned it into calling me out and acting like your side of the story was FACTUAL.

Clippersfan86
09-20-2013, 04:15 PM
Pet shop boys forum?

:laugh:

Jamiecballer
09-20-2013, 04:17 PM
the truth is the OP of this thread asked a question but he is not truly open to having his mind changed.

to him, a teammate is a teammate is a teammate. so in his mind if others have done it without a superstar teammate, why hasn't he? but when he has been presented with facts about how insanely bad his support has been, surprise, he never replies.

FlashBolt
09-20-2013, 04:20 PM
Hit the nerve there, huh? No worries, you remind me of a typical internet bully. You should be settling your differences in a private message, not a public thread for everyone to see. How about it, kiddo?

I'm the one acting like a bully? I tried to let that other thread die because it was getting nowhere and was getting TOO personal. I didn't even bring up Bagwell in this thread until he wrote his usual long rant calling me out, out of the blue talking about how I dodged him in that thread last week. I asked him if he has a life because somebody who cares that much to carry on drama over multiple threads, obviously takes this very seriously.

I love posting here and talking ball but if I'm arguing with people that show no inclination to at least be reasonable about things, I don't waste more time than I need to. Chronz and many others have called me out for being offensive or being incorrect and after they did we moved on like adults. I just think it's pointless and immature to drag this through multiple threads.

My motive may seem bad and like it's related to the other thread but I wasn't calling anybody out in this thread, I simply didn't remember that 3 year stretch until yesterday and wanted some thoughts on it from people since most fans judge team success so harshly. Even in the other thread it's you and Bagwell who made it personal and acted "bully" like, not me. I simply gave an opinion on the matter and even gave this disclaimer that I'm not claiming it was factual. It was you guys who turned it into calling me out and acting like your side of the story was FACTUAL.

Bagwell questioned your motives because he felt you constantly refused to answer his questions when you were all so involved in the thread. I don't want to turn this off topic but it was you who brought up the personal junk. Calling out one's social life and proclaiming your life to be better than others. Yes, you are the internet bully. If you want a detailed thread without personally insulting someone, maybe you should insert some of your arguments that we haven't refuted. You say you're open and free, but you just refuse to accept the fact that KG had scrubs in the Wolves. We said that in the other thread, you're just making us repeat it while still in disbelief of it.

Chronz
09-20-2013, 04:25 PM
No, no. You misunderstood everything, as you most likely do. I said if you were to ignore the stats that I posted -because they are deceiving in some cases,
Thats why it seemed odd to me. Its not because I misunderstand what you're saying, I just dont understand where your coming from. Its ok bro, we dont have to agree.


by watching KG's games, you would get a clear picture of exactly what he had to do each and every game and how there was nothing more he could've done.
Yeah Im still not seeing where you think I lost you on this. You've been regurgitating this opinion for the last several posts now, again, Im simply not convinced you watched KG any more than anyone else here. Also, simply watching 1 player wouldn't give you the complete perspective as you need some kind of basis for comparison (ie the rest of the league).



You have added nothing to this thread, stop trying to initiate another one of your pointless arguments. It's as if you enjoy arguing and purposely look for them.
Feel free to ignore my posts if you dont wish to engage but yes, I do enjoy questioning a stance I dont agree with. You've spewed nothing but the common rhetoric about watching the games more than someone else and attempted to make an objective point with rudimentary analysis you would later discredit. Im sorry if my post doesn't move the conversation forward as your riveting post did, Ill try harder.

Clippersfan86
09-20-2013, 04:25 PM
Bagwell questioned your motives because he felt you constantly refused to answer his questions when you were all so involved in the thread. I don't want to turn this off topic but it was you who brought up the personal junk. Calling out one's social life and proclaiming your life to be better than others. Yes, you are the internet bully. If you want a detailed thread without personally insulting someone, maybe you should insert some of your arguments that we haven't refuted. You say you're open and free, but you just refuse to accept the fact that KG had scrubs in the Wolves. We said that in the other thread, you're just making us repeat it while still in disbelief of it.

Is this coming from the guy who's made a point to personally attack every post I've made over various threads since that KG vs Dirk thread? Just wondering. You're delusional if you can't see your errors in communication. You're trying to paint me out as some unreasonable douche, while failing to admit that you've been pretty hostile from opening tip and instigated a fair bit.

DoMeFavors
09-20-2013, 05:11 PM
win. bagwell was talking about kg wearing his heart in his sleeve. well TD is that rock people look up to. You know when the going gets tough, just follow his lead. he builds up his teams through sheer will of mind. the thought that it can happen. the winning culture of tim duncan. just having him on the team gave you hope it was possible to win. when everyone is of the same mind, it's easier to work together. better than Kg picking on little guys and then getting rocked and not doing anything.

you talk up how good a teamate Duncan is but dont credit the same thing to KG who coaches/players have said is one of the best teamates or the best teamate they have ever had?

N3TS
09-20-2013, 05:44 PM
As good as TD is you have to also give a large amount of credit to Popovich, KG had Flip Saunders in Minnesota.

netsgiantsyanks
09-20-2013, 05:45 PM
if any of you guys remember the wolves got **** for illegally signing somebody, i think it was joe smith or something and they lost their 1st round picks for like 5-6 years. so even when they weren't great, they didn't have a draft to look forward to. i think that's part of the reason

tredigs
09-20-2013, 06:20 PM
As good as TD is you have to also give a large amount of credit to Popovich, KG had Flip Saunders in Minnesota.

Lest you forget that he also got part of a season with year 1 Kevin McHale after Flip's firing, as well as legendary head coaches Dwane Casey and Randy Wittman. And just like Duncan came in under the wing of David Robinson, Garnett had the luxury of learning behind legendary big man Sam Mitchell. No excuses, both situations were basically identical and both were given an equal opportunity to win shipz.


if any of you guys remember the wolves got **** for illegally signing somebody, i think it was joe smith or something and they lost their 1st round picks for like 5-6 years. so even when they weren't great, they didn't have a draft to look forward to. i think that's part of the reason

Moar excuses. Same situation as Dirk and Duncan through their prime.

Jamiecballer
09-20-2013, 06:49 PM
Lest you forget that he also got part of a season with year 1 Kevin McHale after Flip's firing, as well as legendary head coaches Dwane Casey and Randy Wittman. And just like Duncan came in under the wing of David Robinson, Garnett had the luxury of learning behind legendary big man Sam Mitchell. No excuses, both situations were basically identical and both were given an equal opportunity to win shipz.



Moar excuses. Same situation as Dirk and Duncan through their prime.
:laugh:

Catoblepas
09-20-2013, 07:28 PM
Because latrell sprewell had to feed his family

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1266269/posts
Latrell Sprewell says he'll ask to be traded if the Minnesota Timberwolves don't sign him to a contract extension by Wednesday night's opener. ''I think this thing is heading towards me leaving, personally,'' Sprewell told reporters after a practice this week. Earlier this preseason, Sprewell said he wanted a contract extension by the Wolves' opener, against the New York Knicks, or he would ask for a sign-and-trade deal or wait to become a free agent. Either way, Sprewell said he didn't want to negotiate during the season. But he took a tougher stance Sunday. Asked if he would play out the season and test the free-agent market, Sprewell said: ''Why would I want to help them win a title? They're not doing anything for me. I'm at risk. I have a lot of risk here. I got my family to feed.'' Sprewell is due to make $14.6 million this year. Sprewell, 34, described the team's latest offer, reported to be worth between $27 million and $30 million over three years, as ''insulting.''

Jamiecballer
09-20-2013, 07:49 PM
if any of you guys remember the wolves got **** for illegally signing somebody, i think it was joe smith or something and they lost their 1st round picks for like 5-6 years. so even when they weren't great, they didn't have a draft to look forward to. i think that's part of the reason

i totally forgot about this. between Garnett's ridiculous contract and that punishment they were basically ****ed for the future.

bagwell368
09-20-2013, 08:34 PM
win. bagwell was talking about kg wearing his heart in his sleeve. well TD is that rock people look up to. You know when the going gets tough, just follow his lead. he builds up his teams through sheer will of mind. the thought that it can happen. the winning culture of tim duncan. just having him on the team gave you hope it was possible to win. when everyone is of the same mind, it's easier to work together. better than Kg picking on little guys and then getting rocked and not doing anything.

So, better coaching, and a better roster counted for nothing? Very much like a biased question posed w/o looking at such factors - worth nothing - unless the audience is sub 14 year olds...

bagwell368
09-20-2013, 08:43 PM
Flash you seem to have a very deep personal vendetta. You're the only guy I have met on PSD that preaches about intelligence, logic, basketball knowledge, while using absolutely none of that in the process of attacking other posters.

None? From my arm chair, he's far more lucid and organized than you are. Can't imagine what you're doing but flinging mud to try and obscure who the real empty suit is here.


Odd character to be sure. How about you let myself and Bagwell sort things out without acting like his wife for a bit?

Sounds good, but you never stand and deliver, just fling dung and run when you come up against questions you don't have a knee JERK answer for. Pathetic...

Clippersfan86
09-20-2013, 08:53 PM
None? From my arm chair, he's far more lucid and organized than you are. Can't imagine what you're doing but flinging mud to try and obscure who the real empty suit is here.



Sounds good, but you never stand and deliver, just fling dung and run when you come up against questions you don't have a knee JERK answer for. Pathetic...

What did I fling and run about? In the original thread I agreed to disagree for obvious reasons. You don't seem to be able to differentiate opinion from fact, even when somebody gives a disclaimer up front that it is THEIR PERSONAL OPINION. Not once have you presented anything "factual" in this debate that I disagreed with or said you were wrong about. Nor did I once make any claims of fact that you disproved outside of the couple errors I admitted I was wrong on about the Wolves history.

I'm the first one to admit I was beat and guys like Chronz, Holly and a few others have schooled me on this forum at times (which I admitted at that time). You on the other hand haven't done that and if you expect me to feel like you somehow "won" that discussion, you're wasting your time. Acting like a raging homer and presenting your opinions as facts then following me around trying to bait me doesn't make you look intelligent.

I understand you're retired and have lots of free time but that has nothing to do with being petty, immature and uptight. I'm over trying to have a reasonable, level-headed discussion with you because time and time again you've shown you don't want to do that with me. Just move on.

As for Bolt he's definitely a try hard. A guy who badly wants to sound well informed and talk down to everybody but then says some stuff that makes you wonder if he's ever watched basketball consistently in his life. Such as today when he said even prime Gilbert Arenas was an inefficient chucker (when in actuality he had a near Harden level TS% getting near 60) in his prime.

bholly
09-20-2013, 09:19 PM
if any of you guys remember the wolves got **** for illegally signing somebody, i think it was joe smith or something and they lost their 1st round picks for like 5-6 years. so even when they weren't great, they didn't have a draft to look forward to. i think that's part of the reason

They lost their 2001, 2002, and 2004 first round picks, which would've been #17 (or 18), #23 (or 24), and #28 respectively. Not sure it had that big of an impact here.

Tony_Starks
09-20-2013, 09:24 PM
KG did play with Spree, Cassell, Wally, and 6th man candidate Hudson ( who completely lit up the Lakers in the playoffs btw) . He also played for Flip who was regarded as a offensive genius at the time.

There were years when his team was horrible as well but it's just flat out wrong to act like he NEVER had a squad. The fact of the matter is any team with prime KG as its best player isn't a contender. He put up ridiculous stats but he's not a leader. When he went to Boston and Pierce was thier established crunch time "go to guy" it was a perfect scenario....

bagwell368
09-20-2013, 10:22 PM
I'm the one acting like a bully? I tried to let that other thread die because it was getting nowhere and was getting TOO personal. I didn't even bring up Bagwell in this thread until he wrote his usual long rant calling me out, out of the blue talking about how I dodged him in that thread last week. I asked him if he has a life because somebody who cares that much to carry on drama over multiple threads, obviously takes this very seriously and cares about the forum more than myself.

I love posting here and talking ball but if I'm arguing with people that show no inclination to at least be reasonable about things,

Your definition of reasonable based on the few dozen posts of yours I have seen, is questionable. You don't marshal facts or logic in any convincing manner, just give opinions, and label others (like for instance comparing arguing with me is like talking to a person with Down's).

I've had lots of conversations w/ bright people here, and been convinced of what they are saying in that given thread. I've made mistakes and admitted it. So far, I haven't seen any reason to compromise with someone that doesn't give respect and hasn't earned it. After a good deal of patient posts, you walked, is that how a polite poster that doesn't mind compromising behaves? You behavior seems is lacking here. Now I must note you did relent and admit a mistake which I noted gratefully, but that doesn't make up nearly enough.


I don't waste more time than I need to.

Does that mean you don't give in or lose with honor or grace in this case if you can help it?


I just think it's pointless and immature to drag this through multiple threads.

You hope it is. Who leaves one thread (which I called BTW just before you did it) w/o answering well thought out posts and then reignite a debate on the same player in a different thread a few weeks later, because why? It doesn't matter but it IS YOU who carried the debate (using many of the same arguments) to a 2nd thread, not me. Did you learn anything from the first thread? Or is it just frustration that the thread didn't go as you planned?


The thing anybody who knows me will admit is that when wrong,

Excepting the noted exception this is not my experience. Please prove me wrong.


Holly for example in this very thread corrected me on something and I owned up to it. That's not the same as trying to shove it down my throat that KG absolutely is better, no question.. then belittling me because I disagree.

You started the insults in the KG v DN thread, friend, see below.


My motive may seem bad and like it's related to the other thread but I wasn't calling anybody out in this thread, I simply didn't remember that 3 year stretch until yesterday and wanted some thoughts on it from people since most fans judge team success so harshly. Even in the other thread it's you and Bagwell who made it personal and acted "bully" like, not me.

To anyone that cares - or wishes to correct things they have said because they have class, go to the KG v DN thread and read (the best of both of us) posts:

#1, #3 #22, #29, #30, #52, #53, #54, #58, #81, #82, #98, #99, #105, #244, #245, #251, #254, #273, #277, #288, #291, #327, #330, #332, #334, #341, #351, #352.

Among other things, my being a true fan of Celts was called into question because I professed a preference for KG > PP in terms of impact since he got here.

I was further savaged when I made the call (by eye and stat) that Terry was better than PP last year in a number of his seasons when my friend here tried to make the comparison in PP's favor. Interesting, you just want to trade opinions, but get out of control with someone that's been posing issues/questions you have no answer for?

You also asked after what I did with my time earlier in the thread, so that's twice now. What do you do? I don't really care, You have a lot of posts full of opinion by lacking depth, and no long term NBA memory. I had and am having a life, perhaps you're still getting off the training wheels?

The question is, who was in control of themselves and the facts, and who wasn't?


I simply gave an opinion on the matter and even gave this disclaimer that I'm not claiming it was factual. It was you guys who turned it into calling me out and acting like your side of the story was FACTUAL.

It is a fact by stat and it the held opinion of at least 4 to 1 of the posters in your thread that KG > DN.

You even tried to tie in arguments of Malone and Barkley who you also claimed was better than KG which can be disproven as well, and already has been in other threads on PSD.

Do you have to justify your negative opinion on KG to make others share in it? That's no solution. The fact that you freely used insults and were found lacking in facts and the ability to marshal and interpret them means your opinion simply has less to buttress it than mine. I.E. you have failed to back up your case, and you have acted poorly in doing it.

THE MTL
09-20-2013, 10:26 PM
Cause basketball is a team sport

bagwell368
09-20-2013, 10:31 PM
KG did play with Spree, Cassell, Wally, and 6th man candidate Hudson ( who completely lit up the Lakers in the playoffs btw) . He also played for Flip who was regarded as a offensive genius at the time.

There were years when his team was horrible as well but it's just flat out wrong to act like he NEVER had a squad. The fact of the matter is any team with prime KG as its best player isn't a contender. He put up ridiculous stats but he's not a leader. When he went to Boston and Pierce was thier established crunch time "go to guy" it was a perfect scenario....

Obviously he had good teams, but his teams in Minny his first 12 years were worse than TD in his first 12 years and worse than DN in his first 12 years.

Scoring points at the end of a quarter (which PP was actually quite bad at) even though he wanted it, and got it, doesn't make you a leader. Neither does being a long term Captain on crappy team.

I ask you to go through the accounts of those years, and I assure you almost everyone saw KG as the leader of that team the minute he walked in the door, because he was. He didn't care about being Captain, he was the guy. The improvements of the defense of every player on the 2007-2008 Celts is traceable to KG, their decline in defense play comes when they left Boston, or declined or as KG declined. Perkins was junk before he got there and junk since he left for instance. Allen and Pierce - before KG? Meh on Pierce, ha ha on Allen.

Clippersfan86
09-21-2013, 03:01 AM
So now popular opinion makes something fact Bagwell? Because that's how you seem to be defining fact. Nevermind that an audience can be completely bias. For example on ****** Dirk is more popular and I doubt it would be 4 to 1 as you say. Stats show they are worth comparing, especially when you factor in the playoffs and efficiency. You can't present something as fact that isn't in fact a fact. As I said before you showed an overrating of KG when you said 12th best player all time and 2nd best PF ever. Given that you view him much better than most others you can't be trusted to make fair analysis on this topic.

Clippersfan86
09-21-2013, 03:12 AM
Pierce was "meh" before KG and Allen was haha? You mean the two perennial all stars that were among the best at their position? Can't believe a Celtics fan would badmouth Pierce so bad to defend KG. Pierce stuck with the Celtics when the ****** front office was surrounding him with scrubs like Walker, McCarty, Blount, Potepenko playing big minutes. The guy has been a consummate pro, never asking to be traded or anything that I recall.

Ray Allen was a top 5 SG throughout his time in Milwaukee and Seattle when the SG crop was the best in NBA history maybe (Kobe, Tmac, Carter, Iverson, Finley, Stackhouse, Redd, Ginobili and more). Dude was an absolute beast and legit all star.

carlthack
09-21-2013, 03:22 AM
Because his teammates sucked after '04. A small market franchise in ice cold weather isnt a big draw for top free agents.

tredigs
09-21-2013, 05:06 AM
They lost their 2001, 2002, and 2004 first round picks, which would've been #17 (or 18), #23 (or 24), and #28 respectively. Not sure it had that big of an impact here.

Eh could've. A few guys that went at that spot or slightly later in those years are Zach Randolph, Gerald Wallace or Tony Parker in '01, Tayshaun Prince or John Salmons in '02 and Anderson Varajao in '04. Beyond that, they couldn't use those picks in a trade scenario. Probably not the best look for free agent signings, either.

bagwell368
09-21-2013, 07:31 AM
So now popular opinion makes something fact Bagwell?

So by picking on one or two small items you hope to draw attention away from the dozen plus I have in to you that you have avoided? Nice try.

Since you yourself use MVP Awards and All NBA and All-Defensive (which are largely popularity or team performance SUBJECTIVE/opinion awards) in your arguments I find it ironic you would then argue against that sort of thing.


Because that's how you seem to be defining fact.

That's the first time I've used that in our KG "discussions" I believe. Again strange that you can't seem to find the time to address all the others. What did you say about me wanting to win the debate and be willing to twist the truth to do it?


Nevermind that an audience can be completely bias.

Or a poster with an agenda.


For example on ****** Dirk is more popular and I doubt it would be 4 to 1 as you say.

Read your own thread, and count the opinions of the posters. At least 3 if not 5 others observed the same thing. BTW, if you don't like using opinions as a measure of truth, why are you now arguing the actual count?


Stats show they are worth comparing, especially when you factor in the playoffs and efficiency. You can't present something as fact that isn't in fact a fact.

I use stats all the time, and they have major limits which I have documented in that threads. The first one is Win Shares of teams with different records. The second one is the rather serious holes on the defensive side of things in terms of collecting data and placing accurate value. I used the Bird/McHale case (before your time I know) to poke holes at one real life example of DWS being sorely lacking. Since KG's lead over DN on defense is obvious even to the biased, bordering on gigantic, a flaw in roughly half the value a given player can earn is a serious problem.

Even using stats, when you get away from PPG and look at a broader grouping of stats KG actually has a broader more accomplished game according to the stats - which I presented and you, and I believe you ignored.


As I said before you showed an overrating of KG when you said 12th best player all time and 2nd best PF ever. Given that you view him much better than most others you can't be trusted to make fair analysis on this topic.

As you have presented your arguments and understanding in this area I cannot accept your opinion because it rests on a weak foundation IMO, perhaps colored with a bias towards KG. Right from the outset of post #1 which I also pointed out.

You've also ignored my posting about DN being younger and more in his prime and comparing him to an older more declined KG and using their current stats unfairly punishes KG for his longevity and age. Any comparison of their 10 year any year order peak gives a much different look to the numbers. Then looking at the playoff seeding and regular season records in those 10 years does much of the rest. What's left then is to figure out how much better KG is than DN on D and factor that in. At that point DN is done vs KG.

KG I believe I said is in the #12th to #14th ranking all time, I'm fine with that, as I believe that it is true. Win Shares says he's 8th I believe. He is better than DN, He is the 2nd best PF of all time. CB and KM are not his equal either. Those are my opinions based on a lot of experience and data parsing.

While anybody can have an opinion on these issues, when the OP gets personally negative, and insists they are right, and gives mostly opinions and slurs (you claimed most of the pro KG fans were either Minny or Boston fans...) , and the other person counters with an array of facts, and deep observations (backed my the majority here and among NBA writers), and stays largely calm in doing so? You keep trying to chip away. Who is this site more important too now?

bagwell368
09-21-2013, 07:46 AM
Pierce was "meh" before KG and Allen was haha?

Do try to read it again. I was addressing DEFENSE, and PP's defense was meh before KG showed up. He didn't commit to it at all with the exception of the year the Celts went to the ECF, when he did try.


Can't believe a Celtics fan would badmouth Pierce so bad to defend KG.

I wrote: The improvements of the defense of every player on the 2007-2008 Celts is traceable to KG, their decline in defense play comes when they left Boston, or declined or as KG declined. Perkins was junk before he got there and junk since he left for instance. Allen and Pierce - before KG? Meh on Pierce, ha ha on Allen.

Do you understand what a paragraph is? When a person stats one talking about KG's defense, than that is the topic of the paragraph. One doesn't have to keep restating the topic in every sentence that's one of the chief advantages of paragraphs.

So more ad hominem attacks, while paying no attention to the topic at hand. An experienced debaters would say you are out of actual material. I certainly can see that. No answers, no new factual arguments. You are wasting the time of every person reading this.


The guy has been a consummate pro, never asking to be traded or anything that I recall.

Might be a good argument if I meant what you think I did.


Ray Allen was a top 5 SG throughout his time in Milwaukee and Seattle when the SG crop was the best in NBA history maybe (Kobe, Tmac, Carter, Iverson, Finley, Stackhouse, Redd, Ginobili and more). Dude was an absolute beast and legit all star.

No question and a HOF'er - based on his offense, his D for a couple of years with KG next to him, and his first chip as a starter, and a little bit this year as a sub - thanks for the stroll down memory lane. Now are you going to answer my questions?

VikesTwinsWolve
09-21-2013, 12:14 PM
As they say on PSD, Bagwell368>Clippersfan86 and its not even close.

Tony_Starks
09-21-2013, 12:30 PM
I don't think anyone is debating his defensive prowess. He's been a defensive anchor the majority of his career. But in Minny he was never seen as a "closer." In fact for some time Cassell occupied that role. That's why the marriage in Boston was a perfect fit because everyone could concentrate on what they were best at. KG ran the D, Pierce and Ray came through with money shots in the clutch.

That's no knock on him btw, still one the great PFs.....

DoMeFavors
09-21-2013, 01:52 PM
Pierce was "meh" before KG and Allen was haha? You mean the two perennial all stars that were among the best at their position? Can't believe a Celtics fan would badmouth Pierce so bad to defend KG. Pierce stuck with the Celtics when the ****** front office was surrounding him with scrubs like Walker, McCarty, Blount, Potepenko playing big minutes. The guy has been a consummate pro, never asking to be traded or anything that I recall.

Ray Allen was a top 5 SG throughout his time in Milwaukee and Seattle when the SG crop was the best in NBA history maybe (Kobe, Tmac, Carter, Iverson, Finley, Stackhouse, Redd, Ginobili and more). Dude was an absolute beast and legit all star.

Stackhouse was horrible

Reversed86Curse
09-21-2013, 02:20 PM
Compare rosters. KG's was horrid. Kobe's had other stars to rely on year in and year out. You could argue that KG advanced further with less on his own than Kobe alone.

Clippersfan86
09-21-2013, 03:03 PM
Just as I assumed on a rival forum more posters supporting Dirk. More importantly actual career statiticians favoring Dirk, since your argumentis that the stats make it not a comparison. I'm not a big stats guy, you said you were so maybe this will be more your language Bagwell. Perfect timing for their thread. If link doesnt come up google "im converted Dirk KG.

Jamiecballer
09-21-2013, 03:06 PM
KG did play with Spree, Cassell, Wally, and 6th man candidate Hudson ( who completely lit up the Lakers in the playoffs btw) . He also played for Flip who was regarded as a offensive genius at the time.

There were years when his team was horrible as well but it's just flat out wrong to act like he NEVER had a squad. The fact of the matter is any team with prime KG as its best player isn't a contender. He put up ridiculous stats but he's not a leader. When he went to Boston and Pierce was thier established crunch time "go to guy" it was a perfect scenario....

Troy Hudson is a below average NBA player who had a below average career. The fact that you are right, one season he was a 6th man candidate, should show you how lost people were before better stats were available.

how do you figure he isn't a leader? can you think of better qualities for a leader than these - tireless worker, vocal teammate, unselfish play? it sounds to me like you are equating leadership to late game shot making.

Jamiecballer
09-21-2013, 03:15 PM
http://forums.******.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1272631&start=30

Just as I assumed on a rival forum more posters supporting Dirk. More importantly actual career statiticians favoring Dirk, since your argumentis that the stats make it not a comparison. I'm not a big stats guy, you said you were so maybe this will be more your language Bagwell. Perfect timing for their thread. If link doesnt come up google "im converted Dirk KG.

:laugh: the thrust of their argument is ORTG. and the always humorous spacing arguments. thanks for the heads-up about that website though, i now know to avoid it.

hugepatsfan
09-21-2013, 04:07 PM
http://forums.******.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1272631&start=30

Just as I assumed on a rival forum more posters supporting Dirk. More importantly actual career statiticians favoring Dirk, since your argumentis that the stats make it not a comparison. I'm not a big stats guy, you said you were so maybe this will be more your language Bagwell. Perfect timing for their thread. If link doesnt come up google "im converted Dirk KG.

KG's career stats include his declining years. Dirk is just entering that phase of his career now so his career rates will start declining with them. KG also came right out of HS so he has his developmental years bringing his career rate stats down more than Dirk's early years do. Compare their 10 year peaks to each other and KG is easily the better player.

Chronz
09-21-2013, 04:24 PM
http://forums.******.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1272631&start=30

Just as I assumed on a rival forum more posters supporting Dirk. More importantly actual career statiticians favoring Dirk, since your argumentis that the stats make it not a comparison. I'm not a big stats guy, you said you were so maybe this will be more your language Bagwell. Perfect timing for their thread. If link doesnt come up google "im converted Dirk KG.
So you want him to read **** from a rival board instead of learning what you think you've learned and preaching here? You're asking to get banned and to get clowned on.

bholly
09-21-2013, 04:54 PM
KG's career stats include his declining years. Dirk is just entering that phase of his career now so his career rates will start declining with them. KG also came right out of HS so he has his developmental years bringing his career rate stats down more than Dirk's early years do. Compare their 10 year peaks to each other and KG is easily the better player.

FWIW, Dirk started out much worse than KG. He was drafted less than a week after his 20th birthday, having only played in the German 2nd tier. Garnett was less than a year younger when he was drafted.

hugepatsfan
09-21-2013, 05:03 PM
FWIW, Dirk started out much worse than KG. He was drafted less than a week after his 20th birthday, having only played in the German 2nd tier. Garnett was less than a year younger when he was drafted.

Dirk reached his peak quicker than KG in terms of years in the NBA though. He had low #s as a rookie in the strike shortened year. Than in year 2 he was pretty good. Then year 3... bam! He starts his prime. KG had a few more years than Dirk in that category of good player but not yet elite. His prime started in the 5th year of his career as opposed to Dirk in year 3.

Pablonovi
09-21-2013, 05:03 PM
First time back in a long time, and I see this. lol. He just wasn't Dirk or Tim status. People keep blaming his team, but when are people going to stop slurping him? Come on. At LEAST get 8th seed.

Hey SPURSFAN1,
How do you do that: "First time back in a long time" and yet you signed up way back in ... whoa, September 2013. Has the space-time continuum sped up (or slowed down) recently? hehe

More seriously, it sure seems like this thread is NOT about TD; so you're constant (and exaggerated vis--vis KG) bragging/promoting of TD doesn't fit at all; and, frankly, smells bad.

Try another thread?

Tony_Starks
09-21-2013, 05:10 PM
When I look at the golden age of PFs in the west when they were all going head to head I would've took Sheed or C Webb just as easily as KG. Skill set wise. Sheed was a head case an C Webb never was right after the injury. But at a certain time you could've put all their names in a hat and been perfectly happy with whoever you got.....

Really had McHale not have been in collusion with his old Buddy Ainge KGs career may very well have been looked at differently.

Clippersfan86
09-21-2013, 05:25 PM
So you want him to read **** from a rival board instead of learning what you think you've learned and preaching here? You're asking to get banned and to get clowned on.

Yes. I don't want to make the mistake of sharing numbers I don't understand (done it many times before as you know). Or passing opinions/knowledge as my own. Easier to refer him to stats from people that know more about numbers. My main point though was to prove that what may be lopsided in favor of something one place, may the the opposite elsewhere. A strong KG bias here doesn't mean it's a dumb comparison which he told me many times.

MTar786
09-21-2013, 05:28 PM
timmy and garnett are easily the top 2 GOAT pf's

after that you can add barkley, malone and dirk if u want. but the first 2 should be unanimous.

SLY WILLIAMS
09-21-2013, 07:26 PM
I'm not a big stat buy because some guys started younger, some guys played longer, some guys played more minutes etc. I go by the guys I would want on my team if trying to win playoff games.

1. Duncan
2. Barkley
3. Mchale
4. Malone
5. Dirk
6. KG

bagwell368
09-21-2013, 07:26 PM
Yes. I don't want to make the mistake of sharing numbers I don't understand (done it many times before as you know). Or passing opinions/knowledge as my own. Easier to refer him to stats from people that know more about numbers. My main point though was to prove that what may be lopsided in favor of something one place, may the the opposite elsewhere. A strong KG bias here doesn't mean it's a dumb comparison which he told me many times.

Where did I say it was "dumb"? Is your memory faulty? I asked you to supply an answer to that the last time you accused me of this. So far, no response... hmmmm... Maybe you ought to go back and take things one by one. Oh yeah I asked you to do that about 2 weeks ago, and you demurred - because it was too much work. Maybe if you did it then this wouldn't be happening now.

I said in post #3 - KG is clearly better than DN. Is that offensive to you in some way? Why do you feel a need to exgagerate what I've written, is that some 9th grade debate tactic? Why can't you just answer my questions when I ask them?

bagwell368
09-21-2013, 07:33 PM
I'm not a big stat buy because some guys started younger, some guys played longer, some guys played more minutes etc. I go by the guys I would want on my team if trying to win playoff games.

1. Duncan
2. Barkley
3. Mchale
4. Malone
5. Dirk
6. KG

I'm almost for sure the biggest McHale pusher on PSD. He was great. His peak was also 1 year with 6 other near prime years. He can't fit on this list anywhere but 6th which is where I have him because the other guys all murder him in career length/value.

One year peak all time roster? He's on mine. That's not a career.

Barkley's defense along with Dirk's was inferior to everyone else on the list, and vastly so compared to all but Malone.

I like a lot of your stuff, but this is one of the stranger ones I've seen.

Pablonovi
09-21-2013, 07:36 PM
Hey Mods,
Time to kill this thread?
New contributions have been few and far between recently; instead more and more of off-topic stuff. Makes for very hard reading.
I think the main points have been made vis--vis KG during those 3 years (pro and con); and, secondarily, about the All-Time GOAT PF's (same 6 or so guys are everybody's list).

Nothing much new here simultaneous with heavy "jumping on each others' cases" (personal attacks, more-aggressive style, too much back-and-forth going back even to other/earlier threads).
This, imo, has turned into the worst thread I've seen in the last month.

RIP this please.

SLY WILLIAMS
09-21-2013, 07:55 PM
I'm almost for sure the biggest McHale pusher on PSD. He was great. His peak was also 1 year with 6 other near prime years. He can't fit on this list anywhere but 6th which is where I have him because the other guys all murder him in career length/value.

One year peak all time roster? He's on mine. That's not a career.

Barkley's defense along with Dirk's was inferior to everyone else on the list, and vastly so compared to all but Malone.

I like a lot of your stuff, but this is one of the stranger ones I've seen.

Thanks for the compliment. I do not mind having my opinion looked at as strange. Many of the younger folks did not see some guys play and go mostly by stats. I know you are an old timer like myself.

I'm only thinking of all the guys at or near their peaks not for their entire career because then I get in to all sorts of other variables. KG is near the top defensively but offensively in the playoffs he never felt like a clutch first guy leader as a Timberwolve. He did not really have that go to move that he felt totally sure shooting. One thing guys like Barkley, Mchale, and Dirk all shared in their peak were they were the go to guys who were not afraid of the last minute shots. If you were in a championship game 7 and you needed a hoop who would you want? Mchale or KG?

Barkeys defense definitely feel fell off as his career went but I remember when he was younger he would surprise a lot of bigger guys with his blocked shots. He was a 270-300 pound guy that looked like he jumped off a trampoline early in his career as a 76er.

bagwell368
09-21-2013, 08:26 PM
Thanks for the compliment. I do not mind having my opinion looked at as strange. Many of the younger folks did not see some guys play and go mostly by stats. I know you are an old timer like myself.

I'm only thinking of all the guys at or near their peaks not for their entire career because then I get in to all sorts of other variables. KG is near the top defensively but offensively in the playoffs he never felt like a clutch first guy leader as a Timberwolve. He did not really have that go to move that he felt totally sure shooting. One thing guys like Barkley, Mchale, and Dirk all shared in their peak were they were the go to guys who were not afraid of the last minute shots. If you were in a championship game 7 and you needed a hoop who would you want? Mchale or KG?

Barkeys defense definitely feel fell off as his career went but I remember when he was younger he would surprise a lot of bigger guys with his blocked shots. He was a 270-300 pound guy that looked like he jumped off a trampoline early in his career as a 76er.

All you had to say is peak, that changes everything. OTOH each guys peak is pretty amazing and McHale gets added to the list because of his insane '86-'87 season.

My first comment is look at the all the players on the Celts 2007-2008 roster the prior couple of years, and look at their D (or lack therof), and tell us if any of the other 5 guys affected/electrified another single team like KG did that year. Who can possibly even be considered to have such a season - TD, and off the top of my head I'm not sure - but it's 1/2 or 2/1.

As for KG not being a closer, he's the best passer of the 6 - with Barkley being pretty close and TD also being quite good. If you don't pass (McHale) or can't pass well, then you better be one hell of a closer to make up for it. KG by virtue of his ability to score (he was quite good you know) and ability to pass actually makes a D's job hard because they don't know what they are going to get. Having a big like him that can actually dribble well (Barkley was good too) makes KG a triple threat or what passes for one at the size these guys are at (minus Barkley). I can easily see wanting that over a scorer that doesn't pass or dribble much - in particular given the D, and the natural team leadership which several of these guys did not have.

McHale was not a leader. He's one of the guys that didn't practice for Fitch, and laid down against the Bucks to get him fired in that horrific sweep in '83.

Malone didn't look like a leader to me.

Dirk had an aura at times in particular in his title year, because most other years his team was well under performing their seeding.

Barkley was magnetic and a motor mouth, I'm not sure if he was a leader.

TD is a leader.

I think you're giving way too much credence to "closer" thing, much too much.

bagwell368
09-21-2013, 08:30 PM
When I look at the golden age of PFs in the west when they were all going head to head I would've took Sheed or C Webb just as easily as KG. Skill set wise. Sheed was a head case an C Webb never was right after the injury. But at a certain time you could've put all their names in a hat and been perfectly happy with whoever you got.....

Really had McHale not have been in collusion with his old Buddy Ainge KGs career may very well have been looked at differently.

You're being too democratic. Sheed was never ever in any year (with the possible exception of '01) the equal of any of these 5 guys in their best 10 years (McHale in his 7) - automatic expulsion IMO of his name from consideration.

Webber had two years that could have fit into the 10-14th best year of these guys (minus McHale). Two. He is one of the greatest can't miss players that missed in the history of the NBA. No way he belongs being mentioned with these guys.

Tony_Starks
09-21-2013, 08:47 PM
Both Sheed and C Webb could do things KG couldn't do. Sheed had Dirk-like range with a legit post game and defense to go with it. C Webb was one of the best passing bigs ever and could grab a board and run the break himself. Not to mention Sheed was a key part of the Pistons not only winning a chip but being the east elite team for years.

Obviously career wise, stat wise I'm sure KG kills it but just from watching these guys there's no way that I buy into the notion that KG is just in this entire different class of PF. I reserve that conversation for the Duncan, Barkley, Malones of the world.

tredigs
09-21-2013, 09:10 PM
That's some pretty lofty expectations of Webber if you consider him a "can't miss who missed". Borderline HOF career.

b@llhog24
09-21-2013, 09:16 PM
Cause the NBA isn't player one on one.

b@llhog24
09-21-2013, 09:18 PM
FWIW, Dirk started out much worse than KG. He was drafted less than a week after his 20th birthday, having only played in the German 2nd tier. Garnett was less than a year younger when he was drafted.

Dirk reached his peak quicker than KG in terms of years in the NBA though. He had low #s as a rookie in the strike shortened year. Than in year 2 he was pretty good. Then year 3... bam! He starts his prime. KG had a few more years than Dirk in that category of good player but not yet elite. His prime started in the 5th year of his career as opposed to Dirk in year 3.

Just so you know, that actually makes Dirk look better.

JasonJohnHorn
09-21-2013, 09:23 PM
That team was AWFUL! 05 Spree and Cassell were 35 and 34... and Spree shot.414 from the field? WTF?!!?! Ndudi Ebi was their second best power player and he couldn't even make a roster in the league the following year. For C and PF Garnett had to do all the work. Still, the team won 44 games and would have been in the playoffs in the east, it's just that the west was really deep.

06 was even worse! I will admit that Wally-Z was actually a really good player then, but when he is your second best player and you are in the West, you know that team isn't going anywhere.

And then in 07... I mean... WOW!!! That team just got worse and worse.... the front office there did fawk all.

There was Garnett and then... Ricky Davis? I mean come on.

Just look at the roster and the coaching staff and the front office and your question will be answered.

DoMeFavors
09-21-2013, 11:11 PM
Both Sheed and C Webb could do things KG couldn't do. Sheed had Dirk-like range with a legit post game and defense to go with it. C Webb was one of the best passing bigs ever and could grab a board and run the break himself. Not to mention Sheed was a key part of the Pistons not only winning a chip but being the east elite team for years.

Obviously career wise, stat wise I'm sure KG kills it but just from watching these guys there's no way that I buy into the notion that KG is just in this entire different class of PF. I reserve that conversation for the Duncan, Barkley, Malones of the world.



So cwebb is a better passer than KG?

Clippersfan86
09-21-2013, 11:47 PM
So cwebb is a better passer than KG?

Yes he is IMO. Better career assists and assist percentage. Not better by a substantial amount but slightly better. Beyond just assists Webber was a more creative and gifted passer. Halfcourt bounce passes in traffic etc. He passed like a PG.

FlashBolt
09-22-2013, 12:58 AM
Both Sheed and C Webb could do things KG couldn't do. Sheed had Dirk-like range with a legit post game and defense to go with it. C Webb was one of the best passing bigs ever and could grab a board and run the break himself. Not to mention Sheed was a key part of the Pistons not only winning a chip but being the east elite team for years.

Obviously career wise, stat wise I'm sure KG kills it but just from watching these guys there's no way that I buy into the notion that KG is just in this entire different class of PF. I reserve that conversation for the Duncan, Barkley, Malones of the world.

... Barkley couldn't defend half as good as KG so I don't see how he ranks above KG. And did you honestly say C Webb did many things KG couldn't do and mentioned passing? KG is one of the best passing big men, he practically played PG during his time in Minnesota.

hugepatsfan
09-22-2013, 01:25 AM
Just so you know, that actually makes Dirk look better.

Dirk has the longevity argument over KG for sure. I've stated that multiple times. Dirk had an 11 year prime from 00-01 to 10-11. KG had a 9 year prime from 99-00 to 07-08. Dirk also look like his decline years will be better than KG's (because of the knee injury he sustained in his second year in BOS accelerating his decline, particularly on the offensive end). When making all time rankings I think peak is far and away more important than longevity and KG was easily the better player over his prime.

beasted86
09-22-2013, 01:25 AM
I think a lot of people here haven't watch KG to be honest.

He revolutionized the PF position. Period.

If that alone doesn't put him a tier above a lot of guys, then I don't know what can.

bagwell368
09-22-2013, 08:25 AM
Both Sheed and C Webb could do things KG couldn't do.

The same can be said of huge amounts of players when comparing them to their betters. You said that at a point in time you could have put those two players together with KG and the other elite PF's of the WC and gotten any of them and not really seen a difference. That's poppycock - by eye and by stat. That's the subject of my response to your post. So instead of answering that, you try to change the topic?


Obviously career wise, stat wise I'm sure KG kills it but just from watching these guys there's no way that I buy into the notion that KG is just in this entire different class of PF. I reserve that conversation for the Duncan, Barkley, Malones of the world.

Fine. But you can't find any evidence or more than a very small percentage of other serious fans or NBA writers of that era that would agree with you.

bagwell368
09-22-2013, 08:30 AM
That's some pretty lofty expectations of Webber if you consider him a "can't miss who missed". Borderline HOF career.

I've written it before, I expected him to be a top 30 player all time, and a top 7 at this position at worst, and he's at best a borderline HOF that sits no higher than about 75, and more likely 85-90 range.

bagwell368
09-22-2013, 08:33 AM
Just so you know, that actually makes Dirk look better.

Let's make the final evaluation after Dirk's career is over. Totals and rates will be hugely affected by how much he declines and how much he keeps playing, and if he wins a title, or keeps winning 55 games and going out in round 1 or 2..

bagwell368
09-22-2013, 08:34 AM
That team was AWFUL! 05 Spree and Cassell were 35 and 34... and Spree shot.414 from the field? WTF?!!?! Ndudi Ebi was their second best power player and he couldn't even make a roster in the league the following year. For C and PF Garnett had to do all the work. Still, the team won 44 games and would have been in the playoffs in the east, it's just that the west was really deep.

06 was even worse! I will admit that Wally-Z was actually a really good player then, but when he is your second best player and you are in the West, you know that team isn't going anywhere.

And then in 07... I mean... WOW!!! That team just got worse and worse.... the front office there did fawk all.

There was Garnett and then... Ricky Davis? I mean come on.

Just look at the roster and the coaching staff and the front office and your question will be answered.

The anti KG crowd is generally like vampires, and facts and logic like sunlight to them... but I do think you staked at least one more with this post, good job.

bagwell368
09-22-2013, 08:39 AM
Yes he is IMO. Better career assists and assist percentage. Not better by a substantial amount but slightly better. Beyond just assists Webber was a more creative and gifted passer. Halfcourt bounce passes in traffic etc. He passed like a PG.

Let's just get some perspective here.

Webber was a great passer and had fantastic hands, too bad for him that he has at most 3 years that can compare with KG's best 10, and none of Webbers can touch KG's best 4.

Webber is of interest to fans here because he's recent and most have seen him, in a historical sense he's not near the top 10 at least and maybe not even top 14.

D-Leethal
09-22-2013, 12:41 PM
So cwebb is a better passer than KG?

I'd say so.

D-Leethal
09-22-2013, 12:44 PM
I think the past few years when KG became (or started getting nationally recognized as) a raging douche people started to get a jaded look at him and his career. I agree with Bagwell here. I probably have him #2 all time PF. Many people here tend to not give much credence to defense, and KG is light years ahead of them all outside of Duncan in that regard. Terrific rebounder, underrated offensive player, and one of the best defensive players I have ever seen. He also provides gritty intangibles that most superstars need role players to provide. Very few superstars are expected to bring that to the table as a bonus, but KG did as good as anyone and I'm not sure you can say the same about anyone else on that list to the same extent you can KG, including Duncan.

Jamiecballer
09-22-2013, 01:40 PM
I think the past few years when KG became (or started getting nationally recognized as) a raging douche people started to get a jaded look at him and his career. I agree with Bagwell here. I probably have him #2 all time PF. Many people here tend to not give much credence to defense, and KG is light years ahead of them all outside of Duncan in that regard. Terrific rebounder, underrated offensive player, and one of the best defensive players I have ever seen. He also provides gritty intangibles that most superstars need role players to provide. Very few superstars are expected to bring that to the table as a bonus, but KG did as good as anyone and I'm not sure you can say the same about anyone else on that list to the same extent you can KG, including Duncan.

but but but he can't shoot from 25 feet away, and he requires decent teammates to be a contender!!

b@llhog24
09-22-2013, 03:09 PM
So cwebb is a better passer than KG?

Isn't that obvious?


Dirk has the longevity argument over KG for sure. I've stated that multiple times. Dirk had an 11 year prime from 00-01 to 10-11. KG had a 9 year prime from 99-00 to 07-08. Dirk also look like his decline years will be better than KG's (because of the knee injury he sustained in his second year in BOS accelerating his decline, particularly on the offensive end). When making all time rankings I think peak is far and away more important than longevity and KG was easily the better player over his prime.

Agreed. Was more of a "jussayin" type if thing.


Let's make the final evaluation after Dirk's career is over. Totals and rates will be hugely affected by how much he declines and how much he keeps playing, and if he wins a title, or keeps winning 55 games and going out in round 1 or 2..

Oh don't worry, I have KG over Dirk. I think Dirk has a better argument against Malone instead of KG.

bagwell368
09-22-2013, 05:39 PM
I think the past few years when KG became (or started getting nationally recognized as) a raging douche people started to get a jaded look at him and his career. I agree with Bagwell here. I probably have him #2 all time PF. Many people here tend to not give much credence to defense, and KG is light years ahead of them all outside of Duncan in that regard. Terrific rebounder, underrated offensive player, and one of the best defensive players I have ever seen. He also provides gritty intangibles that most superstars need role players to provide. Very few superstars are expected to bring that to the table as a bonus, but KG did as good as anyone and I'm not sure you can say the same about anyone else on that list to the same extent you can KG, including Duncan.

Well expressed.

SLY WILLIAMS
09-22-2013, 08:35 PM
I used to root for KG in his pre-Celtic days. I liked Marbury, Tom Gugliotta, Malik Sealy, Spree and Wally (all had NY connections) back in those days so I wanted KG and the Wolves to do well. I remember when he tried to intimidate Duncan in a playoff game. That was funny. It was around that time though that I realized KG was a first fiddle defensively but not a guy that would carry his team as a first fiddle guy offensively in the later parts of games. That is why I have him ranked lower than other guys.

I did later get tired of his look how tough I am act when he became a Celtic despite him having a history of picking fights and running before his Celtic days. He looked foolish vs 6-4 Anthony Peeler (former teammate) and against Antonio Mcdyess.

ewing
09-22-2013, 08:58 PM
I think the past few years when KG became (or started getting nationally recognized as) a raging douche people started to get a jaded look at him and his career. I agree with Bagwell here. I probably have him #2 all time PF. Many people here tend to not give much credence to defense, and KG is light years ahead of them all outside of Duncan in that regard. Terrific rebounder, underrated offensive player, and one of the best defensive players I have ever seen. He also provides gritty intangibles that most superstars need role players to provide. Very few superstars are expected to bring that to the table as a bonus, but KG did as good as anyone and I'm not sure you can say the same about anyone else on that list to the same extent you can KG, including Duncan.

KG is the best screen setter in the NBA. says something

bagwell368
09-22-2013, 09:09 PM
I used to root for KG in his pre-Celtic days. I liked Marbury, Tom Gugliotta, Malik Sealy, Spree and Wally (all had NY connections) back in those days so I wanted KG and the Wolves to do well. I remember when he tried to intimidate Duncan in a playoff game. That was funny. It was around that time though that I realized KG was a first fiddle defensively but not a guy that would carry his team as a first fiddle guy offensively in the later parts of games. That is why I have him ranked lower than other guys.

I did later get tired of his look how tough I am act when he became a Celtic despite him having a history of picking fights and running before his Celtic days. He looked foolish vs 6-4 Anthony Peeler (former teammate) and against Antonio Mcdyess.

Too bad. I gave you a lot of reasons of why you and others overrate the idea of "closer" and other factors in his game that count for more IMO and you didn't respond to them. Then you throw out a long list of subjective dislikes for KG's nastier side. You don't "get" him. He's an agitator. He agitates to get under the skin of others, to get them frustrated so they take a poke at him, and get a foul or a T or tossed. That's what a guy does when he'll do anything to win.

ewing
09-22-2013, 09:16 PM
Too bad. I gave you a lot of reasons of why you and others overrate the idea of "closer" and other factors in his game that count for more IMO and you didn't respond to them. Then you throw out a long list of subjective dislikes for KG's nastier side. You don't "get" him. He's an agitator. He agitates to get under the skin of others, to get them frustrated so they take a poke at him, and get a foul or a T or tossed. That's what a guy does when he'll do anything to win.

I think it also has something to do with the fact that he is an *******

SPURSFAN1
09-22-2013, 09:41 PM
Too bad. I gave you a lot of reasons of why you and others overrate the idea of "closer" and other factors in his game that count for more IMO and you didn't respond to them. Then you throw out a long list of subjective dislikes for KG's nastier side. You don't "get" him. He's an agitator. He agitates to get under the skin of others, to get them frustrated so they take a poke at him, and get a foul or a T or tossed. That's what a guy does when he'll do anything to win.

It's no fault that KG isn't that go to guy like TD or Dirk. *** even TD was closing out overtime games vs memphis at an old age. Staying in the game and pulling it out in the fourth quarter is a god given talent. Look at kobe. He KNOWS fourth quarters are his. Don't bench him in the fourth. He knows it's his time. I don't care if you make 6 3's but then go 2/7 in the fourth, that's a tell tell sign. For someone to disregard that is foolish. It's an element to the game.

FlashBolt
09-22-2013, 09:54 PM
Too bad. I gave you a lot of reasons of why you and others overrate the idea of "closer" and other factors in his game that count for more IMO and you didn't respond to them. Then you throw out a long list of subjective dislikes for KG's nastier side. You don't "get" him. He's an agitator. He agitates to get under the skin of others, to get them frustrated so they take a poke at him, and get a foul or a T or tossed. That's what a guy does when he'll do anything to win.

It's no fault that KG isn't that go to guy like TD or Dirk. *** even TD was closing out overtime games vs memphis at an old age. Staying in the game and pulling it out in the fourth quarter is a god given talent. Look at kobe. He KNOWS fourth quarters are his. Don't bench him in the fourth. He knows it's his time. I don't care if you make 6 3's but then go 2/7 in the fourth, that's a tell tell sign. For someone to disregard that is foolish. It's an element to the game.

Duncan knows fourth quarters, like missing two freebies over the much smaller Battier. Great logic, we completely understand now! How about using some factual proof on a much broader scale than just a miniature selection of games? Everyone has bad games and you're constantly comparing Duncan against KG. We all already established that Duncan is the greatest PF and is borderline top 5 greatest ever. Stop the nonsense already.

SPURSFAN1
09-22-2013, 09:56 PM
Duncan knows fourth quarters, like missing two freebies over the much smaller Battier. Great logic, we completely understand now! How about using some factual proof on a much broader scale than just a miniature selection of games? Everyone has bad games and you're constantly comparing Duncan against KG. We all already established that Duncan is the greatest PF and is borderline top 5 greatest ever. Stop the nonsense already.

1 shot over 21 games lol. i'd take those ratios. flash i know ur a spurs hater but stop man. don't try to attack me and instead judge by the substance of my words.
i'd take years of td and DIRK closing games than years of kg closing games.

FlashBolt
09-22-2013, 10:03 PM
Duncan knows fourth quarters, like missing two freebies over the much smaller Battier. Great logic, we completely understand now! How about using some factual proof on a much broader scale than just a miniature selection of games? Everyone has bad games and you're constantly comparing Duncan against KG. We all already established that Duncan is the greatest PF and is borderline top 5 greatest ever. Stop the nonsense already.

1 shot over 21 games lol. i'd take those ratios. flash i know ur a spurs hater but stop man. don't try to attack me and instead judge by the substance of my words.

How much of a hypocrite are you? You just stated above that you don't care if they go 6 threes and 2-7 is a sign. What are you exactly trying to prove? No, I'm not a Spurs hater. Duncan is one of the greatest players and certainly the best PF. I don't know where you drew the speculation that I'm a Spurs hater, but you're just trying to downplay KG in the most ludicrous ways.

SPURSFAN1
09-22-2013, 10:11 PM
How much of a hypocrite are you? You just stated above that you don't care if they go 6 threes and 2-7 is a sign. What are you exactly trying to prove? No, I'm not a Spurs hater. Duncan is one of the greatest players and certainly the best PF. I don't know where you drew the speculation that I'm a Spurs hater, but you're just trying to downplay KG in the most ludicrous ways.

You can be a hater and still respect a player. You make it seem like that's impossible. I was just replying to bagwell. because he was trying to downplay players efficiency during crunch time.

bagwell368
09-23-2013, 06:40 AM
It's no fault that KG isn't that go to guy like TD or Dirk. *** even TD was closing out overtime games vs memphis at an old age. Staying in the game and pulling it out in the fourth quarter is a god given talent. Look at kobe. He KNOWS fourth quarters are his. Don't bench him in the fourth. He knows it's his time. I don't care if you make 6 3's but then go 2/7 in the fourth, that's a tell tell sign. For someone to disregard that is foolish. It's an element to the game.

I never said to disregard it, but, some of you guys act as if that's all there is, and it's far from it. If people want to beat on him for it, then they need to look and decide if there is something else he is doing to help win games (yes, in spades), or is he hiding from the ball behind a screen somewhere?

It never ceases to amaze me when someone in an argument finds one point they see as key, and they stop looking for other points and hang onto that point like grim death. They have stooped looking, seeing, or learning. Makes them frustrating to deal with at times, but oh so easy to beat in a debate.

bagwell368
09-23-2013, 06:44 AM
You can be a hater and still respect a player. You make it seem like that's impossible. I was just replying to bagwell. because he was trying to downplay players efficiency during crunch time.

What a terrible label to put on it. Accuse KG all you want of not being as great a closer as players x, y, and z. But efficiency can apply to two things. His shooting (which unless someone presents contrary evidence is just fine in the 4th quarter of big games), or his overall game (which I also mentioned just some of those above about 8 posts), he's very efficient, and has one of the broadest sets of offensive arsenals of any #4, yet you try and besmirch that fact, with misuse of a word, and in prior posts, by concentration of one trait to the exclusion of all or most else about his game.

SLY WILLIAMS
09-23-2013, 11:22 AM
Too bad. I gave you a lot of reasons of why you and others overrate the idea of "closer" and other factors in his game that count for more IMO and you didn't respond to them. Then you throw out a long list of subjective dislikes for KG's nastier side. You don't "get" him. He's an agitator. He agitates to get under the skin of others, to get them frustrated so they take a poke at him, and get a foul or a T or tossed. That's what a guy does when he'll do anything to win.

Your reasons and your opinions are no more and no less valid than anyone elses reasons or opinions in this thread. They are all subjective no matter how many stats people cherry pick to support a opinion. Many games are won in the last minute. That is a big reason why MJ and Bird are looked at as legends. That plays a big influence on my ranking KG below some of the other great PF. It doesn't mean he is not great as well. I just do not view him as high as you view him.

His fake tough guy act does not play a role in my ranking of him as a PF. You call it agitating (despite the reality that he has often got a tech himself). I call it a guy that talks the talk but doesn't walk the walk. I personally do not respect a guy that starts a fight and then runs away.

HouRealCoach
09-23-2013, 12:05 PM
So while Dirk was playing with Jason Terry, Josh Howard, Jerry Stackhouse, Devin Harris, etc. & later Chandler, Kidd, Butler, Terry, etc. you expect KG to do the same with Ricky Davis? Are you serious?

Jamiecballer
09-23-2013, 12:25 PM
Your reasons and your opinions are no more and no less valid than anyone elses reasons or opinions in this thread. They are all subjective no matter how many stats people cherry pick to support a opinion. Many games are won in the last minute. That is a big reason why MJ and Bird are looked at as legends. That plays a big influence on my ranking KG below some of the other great PF. It doesn't mean he is not great as well. I just do not view him as high as you view him.

His fake tough guy act does not play a role in my ranking of him as a PF. You call it agitating (despite the reality that he has often got a tech himself). I call it a guy that talks the talk but doesn't walk the walk. I personally do not respect a guy that starts a fight and then runs away.

this is demonstrably false. each and every game is won over the totality of 48 mins. talk about the ultimate small sample size.

SLY WILLIAMS
09-23-2013, 01:27 PM
this is demonstrably false. each and every game is won over the totality of 48 mins. talk about the ultimate small sample size.

I suspect that most hoops fans know what I meant about the last minutes of a game. Former pros like Clyde Frazier and former coaches like Digger Phelps have said similar things about the last minutes of games.

With that said since you choose to take this road I will point out that you are wrong. Not all games are won in 48 minutes. Some go much longer with overtime.

Jamiecballer
09-23-2013, 01:34 PM
I suspect that most hoops fans know what I meant about the last minutes of a game. Former pros like Clyde Frazier and former coaches like Digger Phelps have said similar things about the last minutes of games.

With that said since you choose to take this road I will point out that you are wrong. Not all games are won in 48 minutes. Some go much longer with overtime.
bahaha. i will give you the bolder.

the other part, well that's still not true no matter how many times you repeat it.

DallasTrilla23
09-23-2013, 01:39 PM
So while Dirk was playing with Jason Terry, Josh Howard, Jerry Stackhouse, Devin Harris, etc. & later Chandler, Kidd, Butler, Terry, etc. you expect KG to do the same with Ricky Davis? Are you serious?

Ricky Davis is my n****

Chronz
09-23-2013, 02:17 PM
Ricky Davis is working out for the Knicks apparently

STL Pride
09-23-2013, 02:24 PM
If you ever have an opportunity try taking a look at some of those Minnesotta games in the early 2000's. His teams for the most part were terrible. They always had an issue trying to find a no.2 option that could carry the load and reduce some of the pressure off Garnet's shoulders.
He was constantly doubled and even trippled teamed throughout many games that led to endless frustration and signs of misdirection.
He always had to take care of business himself despite the way defenses were game planning against him and still found ways to outplay whom ever dared to step inside his paint.
KG was an enforcer, he probably could of averaged 27-28ppg if he wanted to though instead was very unselfish and always did what was best for his team. He also was the best defender in the league during this stage of his career. A monster on both sides of the ball.
I hope people can understand that KG was at his very best in Minnesotta and what he did in Boston was a reflection of his former self (still VERY good player) except on a much better team in which he was thrilled to be apart of.
To say the least.

bholly
09-23-2013, 03:03 PM
Ricky Davis is working out for the Knicks apparently

hahahahahaha omg please please please make this happen, basketball gods. please!

bagwell368
09-23-2013, 03:26 PM
Your reasons and your opinions are no more and no less valid than anyone elses reasons or opinions in this thread.

One can only believe that if they believe everyone's experience is equal or almost equal. So, given your belief any over excited 13 year old Kobe fan that comes here has an opinion as worthy as yours or mine? I'm sorry, but that is ridiculous beyond laughter.


They are all subjective no matter how many stats people cherry pick to support a opinion. Many games are won in the last minute. That is a big reason why MJ and Bird are looked at as legends. That plays a big influence on my ranking KG below some of the other great PF. It doesn't mean he is not great as well. I just do not view him as high as you view him.

An untrained mind is almost totally subjective. A trained mind is much less so.


His fake tough guy act does not play a role in my ranking of him as a PF. You call it agitating (despite the reality that he has often got a tech himself). I call it a guy that talks the talk but doesn't walk the walk. I personally do not respect a guy that starts a fight and then runs away.

If you think that getting or not getting a T the same as KG's target means that there was no net change you would be dead wrong. KG got under the skin of other players so badly they were hardly able to operate later. I have a great example at the tip of mind, but, it's not coming at the moment.

ewing
09-23-2013, 03:40 PM
Ricky Davis is working out for the Knicks apparently


Him and Michael Doleac should really help the knick bench

Chronz
09-23-2013, 03:42 PM
Doleac? LMFAO why are they wasting the mans time, hes clearly not coming back. Poor Doleac

ewing
09-23-2013, 03:44 PM
Doleac? LMFAO why are they wasting the mans time, hes clearly not coming back. Poor Doleac

I made that one up. Its believable though! My knicks love dusting guys off

ewing
09-23-2013, 03:45 PM
One can only believe that if they believe everyone's experience is equal or almost equal. So, given your belief any over excited 13 year old Kobe fan that comes here has an opinion as worthy as yours or mine? I'm sorry, but that is ridiculous beyond laughter.



An untrained mind is almost totally subjective. A trained mind is much less so.



If you think that getting or not getting a T the same as KG's target means that there was no net change you would be dead wrong. KG got under the skin of other players so badly they were hardly able to operate later. I have a great example at the tip of mind, but, it's not coming at the moment.

It was Glen Davis unfortunately they were teammates

bagwell368
09-23-2013, 04:41 PM
It was Glen Davis unfortunately they were teammates

Nope, although Davis was very easy to get in that way.

SLY WILLIAMS
09-23-2013, 04:51 PM
One can only believe that if they believe everyone's experience is equal or almost equal. So, given your belief any over excited 13 year old Kobe fan that comes here has an opinion as worthy as yours or mine? I'm sorry, but that is ridiculous beyond laughter.

Yet some of the most experienced players/GM make horrible transactions that a 13 year old kid might not make. Regardless I'm not a 13 year old fan. Even some comedians sometimes have better records picking teams to win than former pro players and coaches.




An untrained mind is almost totally subjective. A trained mind is much less so.

Are you making an assumption that you are the only person that has played or coached this game? We are getting off topic. Your opinion is not always right nor always wrong. It is your opinion and you are entitled to it but that is all it is.




If you think that getting or not getting a T the same as KG's target means that there was no net change you would be dead wrong. KG got under the skin of other players so badly they were hardly able to operate later. I have a great example at the tip of mind, but, it's not coming at the moment.

I know the point you are trying to make. I just do not buy it. You are implying KG is Sean Avery like. You think KG runs out of strategy. I think KG runs out of fear.

kobe4thewinbang
09-23-2013, 06:39 PM
I'm just glad KG finally got off the sinking ship that was the Timberwolves at the time of his departure. He did a lot for them. I think to even bring this up as an attack against him is a low move, especially since they almost got to the Finals before losing to the Lakers in 2004.

DallasTrilla23
09-23-2013, 06:44 PM
I made that one up. Its believable though! My knicks love dusting guys off
LOL That was the funniest thing I read all day on this site

bagwell368
09-23-2013, 08:40 PM
Yet some of the most experienced players/GM make horrible transactions that a 13 year old kid might not make. Regardless I'm not a 13 year old fan. Even some comedians sometimes have better records picking teams to win than former pro players and coaches.

There are always corner cases, the fact remains PSD is a meritocracy, not a democracy.



Are you making an assumption that you are the only person that has played or coached this game? We are getting off topic. Your opinion is not always right nor always wrong. It is your opinion and you are entitled to it but that is all it is.

Certainly not, but to assume every person here that played in college, coached for 14 years, and has been a fan for 47 years got the same out of it is highly unlikely.

I've been wrong, but a lifetime Celtic fan that spends much of his time here cutting down the over blown reputations of Bill Russell and Rajon Rondo among others is also no biased fanatic fan either, and that is somewhat rare. And sorry, but my opinion is worth more than the average poster here, which has nothing whatever do with the right of people to hold one. But when people attack me, and then can't back their position or their attack, they lose face, of that I make sure.


I know the point you are trying to make. I just do not buy it. You are implying KG is Sean Avery like. You think KG runs out of strategy. I think KG runs out of fear.

The only fear KG has is losing.

SPURSFAN1
09-23-2013, 09:41 PM
There are always corner cases, the fact remains PSD is a meritocracy, not a democracy.



Certainly not, but to assume every person here that played in college, coached for 14 years, and has been a fan for 47 years got the same out of it is highly unlikely.

I've been wrong, but a lifetime Celtic fan that spends much of his time here cutting down the over blown reputations of Bill Russell and Rajon Rondo among others is also no biased fanatic fan either, and that is somewhat rare. And sorry, but my opinion is worth more than the average poster here, which has nothing whatever do with the right of people to hold one. But when people attack me, and then can't back their position or their attack, they lose face, of that I make sure.



The only fear KG has is losing.

KG top 2 distance runner of all time.

bagwell368
09-23-2013, 09:47 PM
KG top 2 distance runner of all time.

Glad to see you are taking on the serious questions posed to you in this thread.

Why should anyone be surprised?

A poster to runs from a serious question faster than he claims KG does.

John Walls Era
09-24-2013, 01:37 AM
Go to Wiki and read 2003-2007 of Timberwolves. Its a disgrace what kind of moves they did. They would either draft busts or draft allstars but trade them right away (Roy).

SLY WILLIAMS
09-24-2013, 11:34 AM
There are always corner cases, the fact remains PSD is a meritocracy, not a democracy.

Certainly not, but to assume every person here that played in college, coached for 14 years, and has been a fan for 47 years got the same out of it is highly unlikely.

I've been wrong, but a lifetime Celtic fan that spends much of his time here cutting down the over blown reputations of Bill Russell and Rajon Rondo among others is also no biased fanatic fan either, and that is somewhat rare. And sorry, but my opinion is worth more than the average poster here, which has nothing whatever do with the right of people to hold one. But when people attack me, and then can't back their position or their attack, they lose face, of that I make sure.


The only fear KG has is losing.

I understand your belief that your opinion is worth more than the average poster it. That may be the case but for me personally I have no way (or inclination) to prove that my opinion is worth more than other posters.

I'm not sure why you mentioned being attacked. I was not trying to attack you in any way. Just replying to your post.

It is your belief that KG has no fear other than losing. I believe KG ran from Mcdyess not out of strategy but because he did not want to get hit. There used to be videos of KG's "Vanilla Ice" act on the web. There used to be videos of Anthony Peeler smacking KG as well. Either the NBA or somebody else had them all removed.

bagwell368
09-24-2013, 02:01 PM
I understand your belief that your opinion is worth more than the average poster it. That may be the case but for me personally I have no way (or inclination) to prove that my opinion is worth more than other posters.

I'm not sure why you mentioned being attacked. I was not trying to attack you in any way. Just replying to your post.

It is your belief that KG has no fear other than losing. I believe KG ran from Mcdyess not out of strategy but because he did not want to get hit. There used to be videos of KG's "Vanilla Ice" act on the web. There used to be videos of Anthony Peeler smacking KG as well. Either the NBA or somebody else had them all removed.

You're fine, I was just talking about people who try to win debates without good arguments or facts and get personally annoying as well.

JordansBulls
10-10-2013, 12:25 AM
2006 and 2007 I can understand, 2005 I am not sure how you go from the #1 seed to not making the playoffs with the same squad.