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View Full Version : W.Chamberlain vs Kaj:who do you take?



PurpleLynch
09-18-2013, 07:35 PM
I found this awesome video:http: //www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2U4JSrpO78&feature=c4-overview&list=UUFfDF7oCw7sVL7PzEg57E4g

Watch it if you have time,because it's a thing of beauty. A real clash of the titans.

So,who do you think is better? Kaj or Chamberlain?

Hawkeye15
09-18-2013, 08:06 PM
toughest decision in all of basketball ranking to me. I lean KAJ ever so slightly.

Hawkeye15
09-18-2013, 08:10 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2U4JSrpO78

look at how ****ing high Wilt can still get at age 34. My god that man was a freak

tredigs
09-18-2013, 08:12 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2U4JSrpO78

look at how ****ing high Wilt can still get at age 34. My god that man was a freak

Hahah or how fast he was. 34 second mark especially. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B22U73v7kAA

Hawkeye15
09-18-2013, 08:17 PM
Hahah or how fast he was. 34 second mark especially. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B22U73v7kAA

arguably the greatest athlete of anyone over 6'5" ever. While I think LeBron is a freak of nature because of his ability to be 6'8", 270 lbs and be a guard, my god Wilt. You were unreal

Chronz
09-18-2013, 08:36 PM
Wilt was a product of his era, moreso kareem

Jamiecballer
09-18-2013, 09:11 PM
not a huge fan of either man's game but i'll take Kareem.

bagwell368
09-18-2013, 09:12 PM
I have to go with KAJ for lots of reasons given in lots of places previously.

Pablonovi
09-18-2013, 09:34 PM
I've got KAJ All-Time #1 GOAT;
I've got Wilt All-Time #4 GOAT.

A number of reasons. More Chips, More Finals, More MVPs, More Great Years, Unique & Unstoppable Skyhook.
As bagwell says, "see elsewhere" (paraphrased)

I've got Wilt #1 Greatest Athlete of the entire century, 1900s.
He combined incredible: strength, stamina, speed, quickness (he was the #1 guy in the NBA in each of these during his time). (at 35 yrs, 315 lbs fingertips at top of backboard; much earlier, high jumped 6ft 6.5+; later, after basketball, played pro Volleyball (the greats of that sport ranked him as the greatest blocker of all time).

HISTORICAL IMPACT: Wilt single-handedly integrated entire cities and then the entire South of the US. He was also a gentle giant, always broke up fights, virtually never got upset.

Spent his first pro year in the Harlem Globetrotters; if not, he would have racked up another monster season, more total career points, and had an even higher career points-per-game. (N.B. MJ career-wise finished just a fraction ahead of Wilt in ppg. If Wilt had played that year, then MJ might not have played his last year or two in Washington (I always felt like MJ played those years to rack up more points WHILE / AS LONG AS he kept his overall ppg above Wilt's; and that is why he quit when he did - he could still play when he retired the last time.)

Shlumpledink
09-18-2013, 09:47 PM
Kareem was the goat, so Kareem

amos1er
09-18-2013, 09:50 PM
Very tough comparison. I'll take Kareem by a hair. That skyhook would be too much for Wilt to handle.

amos1er
09-18-2013, 09:51 PM
BTW... Comparison forum???

tredigs
09-18-2013, 10:19 PM
Very tough comparison. I'll take Kareem by a hair. That skyhook would be too much for Wilt to handle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xadvGLLx1E. And that's old Wilt.


BTW... Comparison forum???

Hall monitor? It's the off-season, who really cares.

shep33
09-18-2013, 10:31 PM
Extremely close, but I got with KAJ by the slightest of margins. I think Kareem is the GOAT center still

amos1er
09-18-2013, 10:32 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xadvGLLx1E. And that's old Wilt.



Hall monitor? It's the off-season, who really cares.

Sky hook was practically un-guardable in Kareem's prime. It would be very close IMO, but I just don't see Wilt having an answer for that.

I only draw attention to the fact that it belongs in the comparison forum because so many of my threads were transferred there in the past that were not nearly as black and white as this one. If they did it to me, than it should apply to everyone.

shep33
09-18-2013, 10:33 PM
One thing about Kareem that goes underrated is that in his prime he was a phenomenal rebounder and shot blocker. Shot blocking often doesn't go as unnoticed with him for obvious reasons in his all-time rank, but was definitely a very good defensive anchor when he played.

Also a solid freethrow shooter

3RDASYSTEM
09-18-2013, 10:40 PM
Its tough to call

but based on how WILT was holding his own as a old lion vs the young lion I could only imagine he would hold the edge 1 on 1 if younger, he would be like SHAQ but in tip top supreme shape, ALCINDOR had that hook but a young WILT would block it a lot more than the old WILT did, he would dominant on offense like he did against RUSS, but I wouldn't be mad either way if I had to pick ALCIN but I feel the combo of super freak power mixed with athletic ability and video game fatigue he would be too much in the end head to head if same age

Chronz
09-18-2013, 10:40 PM
You guys got it twisted, in a 1 on 1 matchup, wilt would win hands down. Kareem gets the edge because hes had better teammates

Chronz
09-18-2013, 10:42 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xadvGLLx1E. And that's old Wilt.



Hall monitor? It's the off-season, who really cares.

Sky hook was practically un-guardable in Kareem's prime. It would be very close IMO, but I just don't see Wilt having an answer for that.

I only draw attention to the fact that it belongs in the comparison forum because so many of my threads were transferred there in the past that were not nearly as black and white as this one. If they did it to me, than it should apply to everyone.
Old wilt supressed kareem at his most prolific days

amos1er
09-18-2013, 10:44 PM
Old wilt supressed kareem at his most prolific days

Thought we were talking one on one? Team game is a whole other dynamic. Individual match-ups are no indication of who would win one on one. How can we prove who was guarding who for how many possessions of those match-ups?

Hawkeye15
09-18-2013, 11:25 PM
I've got KAJ All-Time #1 GOAT;
I've got Wilt All-Time #4 GOAT.

A number of reasons. More Chips, More Finals, More MVPs, More Great Years, Unique & Unstoppable Skyhook.
As bagwell says, "see elsewhere" (paraphrased)

I've got Wilt #1 Greatest Athlete of the entire century, 1900s.
He combined incredible: strength, stamina, speed, quickness (he was the #1 guy in the NBA in each of these during his time). (at 35 yrs, 315 lbs fingertips at top of backboard; much earlier, high jumped 6ft 6.5+; later, after basketball, played pro Volleyball (the greats of that sport ranked him as the greatest blocker of all time).

HISTORICAL IMPACT: Wilt single-handedly integrated entire cities and then the entire South of the US. He was also a gentle giant, always broke up fights, virtually never got upset.

Spent his first pro year in the Harlem Globetrotters; if not, he would have racked up another monster season, more total career points, and had an even higher career points-per-game. (N.B. MJ career-wise finished just a fraction ahead of Wilt in ppg. If Wilt had played that year, then MJ might not have played his last year or two in Washington (I always felt like MJ played those years to rack up more points WHILE / AS LONG AS he kept his overall ppg above Wilt's; and that is why he quit when he did - he could still play when he retired the last time.)

explain KAJ over MJ.

Hawkeye15
09-18-2013, 11:26 PM
Very tough comparison. I'll take Kareem by a hair. That skyhook would be too much for Wilt to handle.

the most unblockable shot in basketball history.

Hawkeye15
09-18-2013, 11:27 PM
You guys got it twisted, in a 1 on 1 matchup, wilt would win hands down. Kareem gets the edge because hes had better teammates

probably, but why would you ever rank/measure a player on that criteria, instead on their production over career?

Pablonovi
09-19-2013, 12:18 AM
explain KAJ over MJ.

Hey Hawk,
In very brief:
KAJ: 15 SUPER-GREAT YEARS (15 All-NBA 1st+2nd Teams: 10 1st; 5 2nd *); 10 Finals Appearances, Skyhook.
MJ: 11 SUPER-GREAT YEARS (11 All-NBA 1st+2nd Teams: 10 1st; 1 2nd); only 6 Finals Appearances.

* He didn't make it in 1982; but Sporting News had him "2nd Team" that year and I agree. Without 1982, KAJ has him by 4 Super-Great Years (that's a BIG gap); with 1982 he has him by 5 years (that's almost 50% more Super-Great Years; that's a VERY BIG GAP). I believe that 2 of KAJ's 4 remaining years were better than MJ's 2 years at Washington; if so, an even bigger gap.

N.B. I have the top 5 like this: KAJ, Magic, MJ, Wilt, Shaq (but I believe LeBron will edge out Shaq soon; if this upcoming year is another great one for him, that'd be 10 Great Ones already!)

But, I do NOT feel super-strongly about "my" top 4. I could live with any order amongst those 4; as long as all of them are in the Top 5.

FlashBolt
09-19-2013, 12:42 AM
Certainly Shaq has to be here as well. Give me Wilt. If you include Shaq, I think it's Shaq for me.

amos1er
09-19-2013, 04:34 AM
the most unblockable shot in basketball history.

Word.

PurpleLynch
09-19-2013, 06:23 AM
I'd kill to see two centers fighting like them. I was mindblown when I saw this video.Wilt the most athletic C and maybe even the most athletic player in entire Nba history.Kaj had the best career,but Wilt is like a demi-god for me.
Ps:look at his speed. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFy1i7mv0-I

PurpleLynch
09-19-2013, 06:33 AM
And also http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwvdsi6gLl8 Sorry,I don't want to flood the thread with videos,but I'm too hype,this channel has a lot of good videos.

bagwell368
09-19-2013, 09:34 AM
Sky hook was practically un-guardable in Kareem's prime. It would be very close IMO, but I just don't see Wilt having an answer for that.

I only draw attention to the fact that it belongs in the comparison forum because so many of my threads were transferred there in the past that were not nearly as black and white as this one. If they did it to me, than it should apply to everyone.

But KAJ's major vulnerability IMO is to tough strong relentless players such as Moses, even the natural PF Cowens in his prime made KAJ gasp a few times. Wilt at prime was a good deal stronger than Moses. Even Wilt in his waning years was an ox, and outplayed KAJ badly a few times before he hit decline and KAJ turned the tables.

I'm not voting as much KAJ (who is not the GOAT, too many lost playoff series to lower seeds, too many of his stats gathered in the thin ABA less NBA.) as against Wilt. Wilt's inconsistency, his bizarre choice of never fouling out, being and having to be the center of attention, his ability to be the best passer, or scorer, or rebounder in any given year, but somehow rarely put it all together at once - 1966-67 was the first time). It's a bit more harsh than I'm looking for, but Wilt is almost the creation of someone that understands aspects of the sports, but, doesn't quite get the glue of how it all fits.

Kareem was more remote, very removed, a technician, a player that could torch a HOF like Robert Parish when he rolled out of bed no problem. But due to his vulnerability to strong players, and his inability to handle the ball, or go after steals (when needed I mean) means in the ways he was dominant, he was dominant, but in other ways he didn't have an answer, which why he isn't my number one in terms of who I'd want, but he is in the sense of historical value.

bagwell368
09-19-2013, 09:45 AM
Hey Hawk,
In very brief:
KAJ: 15 SUPER-GREAT YEARS (15 All-NBA 1st+2nd Teams: 10 1st; 5 2nd *); 10 Finals Appearances, Skyhook.
MJ: 11 SUPER-GREAT YEARS (11 All-NBA 1st+2nd Teams: 10 1st; 1 2nd); only 6 Finals Appearances.

* He didn't make it in 1982; but Sporting News had him "2nd Team" that year and I agree. Without 1982, KAJ has him by 4 Super-Great Years (that's a BIG gap); with 1982 he has him by 5 years (that's almost 50% more Super-Great Years; that's a VERY BIG GAP). I believe that 2 of KAJ's 4 remaining years were better than MJ's 2 years at Washington; if so, an even bigger gap.

N.B. I have the top 5 like this: KAJ, Magic, MJ, Wilt, Shaq (but I believe LeBron will edge out Shaq soon; if this upcoming year is another great one for him, that'd be 10 Great Ones already!)

But, I do NOT feel super-strongly about "my" top 4. I could live with any order amongst those 4; as long as all of them are in the Top 5.

How many times did KAJ teams lose rounds in the playoffs to lower seeded teams? How many times was KAJ the number #1 player on the teams that did win chips?

Didn't KAJ pile up a lot of stats when the ABA had almost fatally weakened the NBA?

Jordan won 6 titles in 6 years, does Wilt have any six year period near that (not in titles, just overall performance)? Jordan 6 playoff appearances - six titles. KAJ 6 in 10.... and only in 2 of those was he clearly the best player, and perhaps in the 3rd he was nearly as good as Magic, but in the other 3 - no way. So KAJ was the dominant player in only 2 of six chips, and lost 4 chips, Jordan was the dominant player in all 6 chips and never lost a chip in the Finals. Gotta say this hurts KAJ quite a bit by comparison. Also Jordan played in a time where the average players were better than KAJ's time.

Now I don't want to be too rough on KAJ, he's clearly one of two guys that can be the GOAT, and he does have what I consider to be 16 excellent-> great years to Jordan's 10, but that 7 year span of '70-'77 of KAJ's gets a serious haircut with no ABA, so much so that I project KAJ's best years are ALL under Jordan's top 8 seasons - that's dominance that can't be ignored.

James? He had the failures vs the Celts to overcome, he's there now, but to get himself in unquestionably with these two he needs 4 more to get to 6.

Hawkeye15
09-19-2013, 10:02 AM
Hey Hawk,
In very brief:
KAJ: 15 SUPER-GREAT YEARS (15 All-NBA 1st+2nd Teams: 10 1st; 5 2nd *); 10 Finals Appearances, Skyhook.
MJ: 11 SUPER-GREAT YEARS (11 All-NBA 1st+2nd Teams: 10 1st; 1 2nd); only 6 Finals Appearances.

* He didn't make it in 1982; but Sporting News had him "2nd Team" that year and I agree. Without 1982, KAJ has him by 4 Super-Great Years (that's a BIG gap); with 1982 he has him by 5 years (that's almost 50% more Super-Great Years; that's a VERY BIG GAP). I believe that 2 of KAJ's 4 remaining years were better than MJ's 2 years at Washington; if so, an even bigger gap.

N.B. I have the top 5 like this: KAJ, Magic, MJ, Wilt, Shaq (but I believe LeBron will edge out Shaq soon; if this upcoming year is another great one for him, that'd be 10 Great Ones already!)

But, I do NOT feel super-strongly about "my" top 4. I could live with any order amongst those 4; as long as all of them are in the Top 5.

Jordan had THE most dominant years of any player that ever existed however.

todu82
09-19-2013, 10:20 AM
Thisclose but Wilt.

Chronz
09-19-2013, 11:58 AM
Thought we were talking one on one? Team game is a whole other dynamic. Individual match-ups are no indication of who would win one on one. How can we prove who was guarding who for how many possessions of those match-ups?

Im just arguing with whatever people are saying. And individual matchups are the only insight into how a 1 on 1 match would go so Im not seeing your point regardless.

As for your q.
An old Wilt intimidated peak KAJ to the point where he relied on nothing but his hook shot and outside jumpers when it was winning time in the 4th, as his own coach would attest. That unblockable skyhook was blocked like 16 times that series, nobody blocked KAJ skyhook with more regularity than Wilt, that is before he got hella old.

Im not saying Wilt defeated KAJ, tho many in the press did make those claims, just that an old Wilt held his own and thoroughly clamped down on the leagues most prolific scorer, especially in the waning minutes of key playoff games.

Chronz
09-19-2013, 12:00 PM
One thing about Kareem that goes underrated is that in his prime he was a phenomenal rebounder and shot blocker. Shot blocking often doesn't go as unnoticed with him for obvious reasons in his all-time rank, but was definitely a very good defensive anchor when he played.

Also a solid freethrow shooter
Great defensive anchor, horrible 1 on 1 defender against brutes. And his rebounding was kind of weak, particularly as he aged. Wilt was a better rebounder from day 1 to the end, his declining athleticism never effected him how it did Kareem on that end. I would say Wilt was a better 1 on 1 defender, but his team defense is prolly overrated (some people think he was on Russ's level).

Chronz
09-19-2013, 12:02 PM
probably, but why would you ever rank/measure a player on that criteria, instead on their production over career?

Whos doing that?

Chronz
09-19-2013, 12:04 PM
Its tough to call

but based on how WILT was holding his own as a old lion vs the young lion I could only imagine he would hold the edge 1 on 1 if younger, he would be like SHAQ but in tip top supreme shape, ALCINDOR had that hook but a young WILT would block it a lot more than the old WILT did, he would dominant on offense like he did against RUSS, but I wouldn't be mad either way if I had to pick ALCIN but I feel the combo of super freak power mixed with athletic ability and video game fatigue he would be too much in the end head to head if same age

Definitely, KAJ was criticized for his lack of Wilt caliber endurance, Wilty could play all game, chug a liter of cola at halftime, and still beat centers up and down the court

Pablonovi
09-19-2013, 01:23 PM
the most unblockable shot in basketball history.

Hey Hawk,
It is NOT a small thing. Heck it is truly difficult to over-exaggerate the greatness of that weapon ...

1) It MUST BE THE MOST DIFFICULT SHOT EVER to make (how else do we explain that NO ONE has ever used it for even a 5 game period? Heck, who even tries any kind of hook shot on a regular basis. (btw, when they measure KAJ's shots, do they measure from where his feet were, or the extra 3 feet to where the ball left his hand?).

2) IT WAS THE MOST UNBLOCKABLE SHOT EVER (thousands and thousands of Sky-Hooks, and only a few dozen blocks?).

3) IT WAS THE MOST UNSTOPPABLE (non-dunk) SHOT EVER (this is NOT the same thing as "blockable". This was a HIGH percentage shot, and when it got into Kareem, double teams were almost useless against it).

4) IT WAS THE MOST USED SHOT EVER (KAJ must have scored more points with it than, with very few exceptions, most players scored absolutely in their careers).

5) IT WAS A DYNAMITE WEAPON IN THE CLUTH

6) It was the most majestic, beautiful shot ever. (Notice no capital letters.)

Taking all these aspects together, a serious argument can be made for KAJ being #1 GOAT right there alone. but, of course, KAJ was so much more than just the SkyHook.

Pablonovi
09-19-2013, 01:28 PM
toughest decision in all of basketball ranking to me. I lean KAJ ever so slightly.

Hey Hawk,
I agree with you completely. "Toughest": at what other position is the gap between the top 2 so hard to measure; because they were so incredibly great in different ways? "Ever so slightly". Me too. I've got Wilt as the Most Dominant Of Any Given Era, (which, because I believe this IS a case of "far and away" most dominant; this is HUGE); but he doesn't have near the Chips or Finals nor the Monster Quality-Longetivity of KAJ.

Pablonovi
09-19-2013, 01:32 PM
Jordan had THE most dominant years of any player that ever existed however.

Hey Hawk,
I've got MJ's Peak as #2 behind Wilt. imo Wilt was MORE dominant of his era than MJ was of his. Vis--vis MJ, Wilt was WAY better than the #2 offensive guy of his era (West or Oscar) than MJ was; defensively Wilt was AT WORST 1b to Russell; and WAY BETTER THAN #3, etc. MJ not nearly as dominant (never forgetting that Centers tend to be way more dominant than guards on defense). So, overall, Wilt was MORE dominant of his era than MJ.

BUT I do have MJ career-wise higher than Wilt.
1 KAJ (greatest number of Super-Great Years) (6 Chips PLUS 4 Other Finals * VS MJ's 6 Chips)
2 MAGIC (best teammate),
3 MJ (greatest Assassin),
4 Wilt (most dominant era-wise),
5 Shaq (simultaneously dominated the next 2 best big-men for a number of years).

(LeBron, with more great years, replaces Shaq, at least).

* I do NOT hold playoff series losses against a player; heck, making it to the Finals 4 more years than MJ, is a HUGE PLUS, imo.

ManningToTyree
09-19-2013, 01:41 PM
I'll take Kareem but it's a toss up

Pablonovi
09-19-2013, 01:59 PM
How many times did KAJ teams lose rounds in the playoffs to lower seeded teams? How many times was KAJ the number #1 player on the teams that did win chips?

Didn't KAJ pile up a lot of stats when the ABA had almost fatally weakened the NBA?

Jordan won 6 titles in 6 years, does Wilt have any six year period near that (not in titles, just overall performance)? Jordan 6 playoff appearances - six titles. KAJ 6 in 10.... and only in 2 of those was he clearly the best player, and perhaps in the 3rd he was nearly as good as Magic, but in the other 3 - no way. So KAJ was the dominant player in only 2 of six chips, and lost 4 chips, Jordan was the dominant player in all 6 chips and never lost a chip in the Finals. Gotta say this hurts KAJ quite a bit by comparison. Also Jordan played in a time where the average players were better than KAJ's time.

Now I don't want to be too rough on KAJ, he's clearly one of two guys that can be the GOAT, and he does have what I consider to be 16 excellent-> great years to Jordan's 10, but that 7 year span of '70-'77 of KAJ's gets a serious haircut with no ABA, so much so that I project KAJ's best years are ALL under Jordan's top 8 seasons - that's dominance that can't be ignored.

James? He had the failures vs the Celts to overcome, he's there now, but to get himself in unquestionably with these two he needs 4 more to get to 6.

Hey bagwell,
Let's of well-argued important points as usual from you.

1) ABA (for KAJ) & EXPANSION (for MJ)

It is NOT KAJ's fault that the ABA co-existed. Nonetheless, he was THE #1 Center (or at worst #2) for both leagues combined for 10 years #1, and 15 years #1+#2 combined. I wouldn't bet he would have won less Chips, made less Finals, or worked less than his 20 years. So I don't think the ABA can be used to hurt KAJ's Legacy, much (and there ARE other interesting-to-analyze "Legacy-hurters" for virtually all the GOAT Top 10 too; like expansion, less athleticism, fewer teams, fewer playoff rounds, less competition at their particular position, different rules ...)

Likewise, there have been years where the NBA expanded and the average talent team-wise was considerably reduced. MJ benefitted directly from that, didn't he. Didn't the 72-10 year, virtually universally considered THE Greatest NBA Season Ever, didn't that benefit, perhaps a lot from expansion?

2) DO PLAYOFF-SERIES LOSSES HURT A PLAYER'S LEGACY? I SAY IT DEPENDS.
Let's not forget that MJ's teams lost a number of playoff series too. BUT, I strongly consider making the Finals to be a BIG PLUS, and a totally-fair "Tie-Breaker" other things being relatively equal (which between MJ and KAJ, there are lots of factors favoring each).

Making Four Additional Finals (and losing them to great teams) is a BIG PLUS.

3) BEING #1B.
It seems I have a tiny-minority position when it comes to the importance of being 1a as opposed to 1b. (Kobe's being 1b to Shaq, the last 2 of the 3 Chip-winning PlayOffs; is NOT for me a MINUS for Kobe; Shaq was insane, being 1b to that, in THE way that Kobe was, is GREAT). Similarly, KAJ was not less than 1b for his team in almost every one of those 10 Finals. It is my belief that he WAS fMVP (over Magic) that year KAJ missed game 6 against Phily; because KAJ outplayed Magic in games 1-5 enough so that KAJ did more overall in those Finals for the victory than did Magic. So, that would be another vMVP for KAJ. And then his 1a or 1b role in several other Finals IS, imo, at least NOT much behind MJ's 6 MVPs.

This reminds me of Kelly, who I consider one of the greatest ever NFL quarterbacks. He lost 4 Super-Bowls in a row. But who else has ever made 4 Super-Bowls in a row??? His team was 2nd best 4 years in a row. For me that makes him one of the greatest quarterbacks ever. That was a Great Team (check out Wikipedia below)

YOU DON'T "LOSE" WHEN YOU FINISH 2ND OUT OF MANY TEAMS/ATHLETES!
--------------
From Wikipedia:

1990[edit source]

Main article: 1990 Buffalo Bills season

In 1990, the Bills switched to a no huddle, hurry-up offense (frequently with Kelly in the shotgun formation, the "K-gun", named for tight-end Keith McKeller), and it started one of the most successful runs in NFL history. The team finished 13–3 and blew out the Miami Dolphins and Los Angeles Raiders (51–3) in the playoffs on their way to Super Bowl XXV. The Bills were overwhelming favorites to beat the New York Giants (whom they had beaten on the road during the regular season), but the defensive plan laid out by Giants coach Bill Parcells and defensive coordinator Bill Belichick kept Buffalo in check (and without the ball) for much of the game. The game featured many lead changes, and with the score 20–19 in favor of New York with eight seconds left, Bills kicker Scott Norwood attempted a 47-yard field goal. His kick sailed wide right, less than a yard outside of the goalpost upright.

1991[edit source]

Main article: 1991 Buffalo Bills season

The Bills steamrolled through the 1991 regular season as well, finishing 13–3 again and with Thurman Thomas winning the Offensive Player of the Year and NFL MVP awards. They also had an easy time with the Kansas City Chiefs in their first playoff game and beat the Denver Broncos in a defensive struggle in the AFC Championship. The Bills looked to avenge their heartbreaking Super Bowl loss a year earlier by playing the Washington Redskins in Super Bowl XXVI, but it was not to be. The Redskins opened up a 17–0 halftime lead and never looked back, handing the Bills a 37–24 loss. During this game, Thurman Thomas lost his helmet and shockingly had to sit out the first two plays of the game, making the Bills the butt of jokes nationwide.[4]

1992[edit source]

Main article: 1992 Buffalo Bills season

The Bills lost the 1992 AFC East title to the Miami Dolphins and Jim Kelly was injured in the final game of the regular season. Backup quarterback Frank Reich started their wild card playoff game against the Houston Oilers, and they were down 35–3 early in the third quarter. Undaunted, the Bills scored touchdowns on several consecutive possessions to tie the game and force overtime. Steve Christie kicked the game-winning field goal in the extra session to cap the biggest comeback in NFL history, 41–38. They then handily defeated the Pittsburgh Steelers in the divisional playoff and upset the archrival Dolphins in the AFC Championship to advance to their third straight Super Bowl. Super Bowl XXVII, played against the Dallas Cowboys, turned out to be a mismatch. Buffalo committed 9 turnovers en route to a 52–17 loss. The Bills became the first team in NFL history to lose three consecutive Super Bowls. One of the sole bright spots for the Bills was Don Beebe's rundown and strip of Leon Lett after Lett had returned a fumble inside the Bills' 5 and was on his way to scoring. Lett started celebrating too early and held the ball out long enough for Beebe, who had made up a considerable distance to get to Lett, to knock it out of his hand. (The play resulted in a touchback, not a touchdown.)

1993[edit source]

Main article: 1993 Buffalo Bills season

The Bills won the AFC East championship in 1993 with a 12–4 record, and again won playoff games against the Los Angeles Raiders and Kansas City Chiefs, setting up a rematch with the Cowboys in Super Bowl XXVIII on January 30, 1994. The Bills became the only team ever to play in four straight Super Bowls, and looked ready to finally win one when they led at halftime. A Thurman Thomas fumble returned for a touchdown by James Washington tied the game, with Super Bowl MVP Emmitt Smith taking over the rest of the game for the Cowboys and the Bills were stunned again, 30–13.

abe_froman
09-19-2013, 02:07 PM
wilt,even in his waning years he gave kaj fits and was a better defender.i have him higher on my all time list as well.

Shlumpledink
09-19-2013, 02:16 PM
Kareem Abdul Jabaar had the rules of the game changed to inhibit his game. Michael Jordan had the rules changed to make his game more dominant. That is why KAJ is better than MJ all time.

Hawkeye15
09-19-2013, 02:21 PM
Hey Hawk,
I've got MJ's Peak as #2 behind Wilt. imo Wilt was MORE dominant of his era than MJ was of his. Vis--vis MJ, Wilt was WAY better than the #2 offensive guy of his era (West or Oscar) than MJ was; defensively Wilt was AT WORST 1b to Russell; and WAY BETTER THAN #3, etc. MJ not nearly as dominant (never forgetting that Centers tend to be way more dominant than guards on defense). So, overall, Wilt was MORE dominant of his era than MJ.

BUT I do have MJ career-wise higher than Wilt.
1 KAJ (greatest number of Super-Great Years) (6 Chips PLUS 4 Other Finals * VS MJ's 6 Chips)
2 MAGIC (best teammate),
3 MJ (greatest Assassin),
4 Wilt (most dominant era-wise),
5 Shaq (simultaneously dominated the next 2 best big-men for a number of years).

(LeBron, with more great years, replaces Shaq, at least).

* I do NOT hold playoff series losses against a player; heck, making it to the Finals 4 more years than MJ, is a HUGE PLUS, imo.

The bolded alone is why you need to understand that Jordan played against far, far better talent than Wilt did. Wilt's incredible athletic ability and strength simply made him a man among boys. Jordan played with all men.

Pablonovi
09-19-2013, 02:51 PM
The bolded alone is why you need to understand that Jordan played against far, far better talent than Wilt did. Wilt's incredible athletic ability and strength simply made him a man among boys. Jordan played with all men.

Hey Hawk,
Three thoughts in response to your always-reasonableness/politeness,
1) YES the average NBA player is decidedly better now than then (though I imagine this trend will continue and we'll be (if we aren't already) looking back on MJ's day as (much) weaker physically compared to them.

2) But I would make a distinction between a) the average level player in Wilt's day (definitely weak relative to later eras) and b) the top 5 guys. West, O, Baylor and Russell could have played and been All-NBA in any era, imo; so, comparing Wilt TO THOSE 4 GUYS, his closest competitors, that's both a WORTHY question to raise and the answer is undeniably, PEAK Wilt WAS A GIANT amongst his era's Greatest.

3) I'm not a betting man, but I'd figuratively bet that Wilt in any other era would have been at least a Top 3 Center for some 10+ consecutive years; with a number of #1s and #2s. Heck, I believe he'd go absolutely wild in the NBA of today. Supposing Dwight (pre-injury) is far and away the best center currently; Wilt would eat him alive, on both sides of the ball. Wilt would simultaneously lead the league in offensive and defensive stats (old or advanced). Just imagining this makes me drool.

Keep in mind, Wilt DOMINATED Russell arguably the greatest defensive presence ever, MORE than he did the rest of the league (for examples both points and rebounds).

Bruno
09-19-2013, 03:56 PM
I think Wilt was the better basketball player but that KAJ accomplished more in his career. Wilt peaked out higher, KAJ had the better career.

Pablonovi
09-19-2013, 04:05 PM
I think Wilt was the better basketball player but that KAJ accomplished more in his career. Wilt peaked out higher, KAJ had the better career.

Hey Bruno87,
Succinct.

When I think "What If?" I ask:
What if Red Auerbach had been Wilt's coach? Boston = few if any Chips. Wilt = GOAT (end of discussion).
That's how WAY better Red was than any and all the coaches Wilt ever had. And Wilt did lose some close series to the C's and the C's won many a very-close series; Red was worth MORE than a point or 3 a game.

bagwell368
09-19-2013, 04:25 PM
Kareem Abdul Jabaar had the rules of the game changed to inhibit his game. Michael Jordan had the rules changed to make his game more dominant. That is why KAJ is better than MJ all time.

Hmmm... I can name a number of changes made to inhibit Wilt's domination, but I'm coming up dry on KAJ.

savvy1803
09-19-2013, 04:35 PM
For me it's Wilt , Kareem had the longevity and obviously the championships to go along with that career but for his sheer dominance i lean Wilt's way . This comparison along with most legends of the game always has that " crossover effect " , meaning we can only dream of seeing both players battle each other in their absolute prime's .

I believe if they had played each other in their prime's that Wilt would have had the upper hand but for those who pick Kareem i totally understand .

Six-8-TheWizard
09-19-2013, 05:33 PM
For me its Wilt but I agree with what Hawkeye said at the beginning of the thread. Definitely one of the hardest if not hardest comparisons to make in terms of the NBA's history

FlashBolt
09-19-2013, 06:31 PM
Would Wilt average 50/25 in KAJ's time, let alone Shaq's era? I don't think so. Very inflated stats. He was obviously a physical specimen but such feats are highly exaggerated because of his competition. Not blaming Wilt for it but the talent pool was fairly terrible whereas Shaq's era was full of dominating centers who would probably average insanely huge numbers as well.

bagwell368
09-19-2013, 09:22 PM
Would Wilt average 50/25 in KAJ's time, let alone Shaq's era? I don't think so. Very inflated stats. He was obviously a physical specimen but such feats are highly exaggerated because of his competition. Not blaming Wilt for it but the talent pool was fairly terrible whereas Shaq's era was full of dominating centers who would probably average insanely huge numbers as well.

KAJ's time? Until the ABA was done I would disagree the NBA Center talent pool was quite weak. Then the talent pool grew again in what in hindsight was the best era for C's in NBA history, which KAJ just touches the early part of.

So, no, IMO most of KAJ's career the talent pool wasn't substantially better then the '65+ part of Wilt's career.

FlashBolt
09-19-2013, 09:46 PM
KAJ's time? Until the ABA was done I would disagree the NBA Center talent pool was quite weak. Then the talent pool grew again in what in hindsight was the best era for C's in NBA history, which KAJ just touches the early part of.

So, no, IMO most of KAJ's career the talent pool wasn't substantially better then the '65+ part of Wilt's career.

I never said a thing about KAJ's era. I mentioned Shaq. There's a reason I didn't but we can certainly agree KAJ>Russell. Greatest centers imo are from Shaq's era. Hakeem, Shaq, Ewing, Robinson, Mutumbo, Alonzo. I actually think Dwight>Bill. Very tough to compare eras but KAJ vs Wilt is definitely one of the most difficult comparisons to debate. It's like debating Duncan vs Hakeem, they are both so great.

Chronz
09-19-2013, 09:52 PM
Would Wilt average 50/25 in KAJ's time, let alone Shaq's era? I don't think so. Very inflated stats. He was obviously a physical specimen but such feats are highly exaggerated because of his competition. Not blaming Wilt for it but the talent pool was fairly terrible whereas Shaq's era was full of dominating centers who would probably average insanely huge numbers as well.
He doesnt need to average those numbers to have better production tho. Inflation can't be accounted for to some degree.

FlashBolt
09-19-2013, 09:59 PM
He doesnt need to average those numbers to have better production tho. Inflation can't be accounted for to some degree.

I know. I'm just stating that Wilt's numbers are highly inflated and should be thrown out in the garbage. I don't think he would average 50/25 in any era, regardless of how good he was. It's hard to calculate the difference between eras but I gotta give it to Kareem. I'm sure neither of them are wrong answers but he sure as hell accomplished just about everything you could ask for in a player.

bagwell368
09-19-2013, 10:01 PM
I never said a thing about KAJ's era. I mentioned Shaq.

Ummm, that's how I read: "Would Wilt average 50/25 in KAJ's time, let alone Shaq's era? "


There's a reason I didn't but we can certainly agree KAJ>Russell. Greatest centers imo are from Shaq's era. Hakeem, Shaq, Ewing, Robinson, Mutumbo, Alonzo. I actually think Dwight>Bill. Very tough to compare eras but KAJ vs Wilt is definitely one of the most difficult comparisons to debate. It's like debating Duncan vs Hakeem, they are both so great.

Yeah mostly agree. To me Bill in that era would have been Mourning (the D close, but Mourning O in his last few years (I.E. not very good). Today he'd be more of a factor due to the dearth of good or better Centers, but still not the best.

Hawkeye15
09-19-2013, 10:36 PM
Hey Hawk,
Three thoughts in response to your always-reasonableness/politeness,
1) YES the average NBA player is decidedly better now than then (though I imagine this trend will continue and we'll be (if we aren't already) looking back on MJ's day as (much) weaker physically compared to them.

2) But I would make a distinction between a) the average level player in Wilt's day (definitely weak relative to later eras) and b) the top 5 guys. West, O, Baylor and Russell could have played and been All-NBA in any era, imo; so, comparing Wilt TO THOSE 4 GUYS, his closest competitors, that's both a WORTHY question to raise and the answer is undeniably, PEAK Wilt WAS A GIANT amongst his era's Greatest.

3) I'm not a betting man, but I'd figuratively bet that Wilt in any other era would have been at least a Top 3 Center for some 10+ consecutive years; with a number of #1s and #2s. Heck, I believe he'd go absolutely wild in the NBA of today. Supposing Dwight (pre-injury) is far and away the best center currently; Wilt would eat him alive, on both sides of the ball. Wilt would simultaneously lead the league in offensive and defensive stats (old or advanced). Just imagining this makes me drool.

Keep in mind, Wilt DOMINATED Russell arguably the greatest defensive presence ever, MORE than he did the rest of the league (for examples both points and rebounds).

Wilt would still be the best center in the game in a landslide if he were born in 1990 with his same gifts. I don't disagree with that. But Jordan just ripped the league apart against much better competition. Would Wilt still stand above the rest like he did in his time? I don't think so. Not to Jordan's degree, and I am not even whipping out stats which make my argument.

TheMightyHumph
09-19-2013, 10:37 PM
Thought we were talking one on one? Team game is a whole other dynamic. Individual match-ups are no indication of who would win one on one. How can we prove who was guarding who for how many possessions of those match-ups?

Watching the games would be one way.

TheMightyHumph
09-19-2013, 11:02 PM
Spent his first pro year in the Harlem Globetrotters; if not, he would have racked up another monster season, more total career points, and had an even higher career points-per-game. (N.B. MJ career-wise finished just a fraction ahead of Wilt in ppg. If Wilt had played that year, then MJ might not have played his last year or two in Washington (I always felt like MJ played those years to rack up more points WHILE / AS LONG AS he kept his overall ppg above Wilt's; and that is why he quit when he did - he could still play when he retired the last time.)

Wilt left college a year early. His season with the Globetrotters he was ineligible to play in the NBA.

OaklandsFinest
09-20-2013, 01:56 AM
Wilt and there's honestly no real comparison. Wilt has his own record books, played every minute of seasons, scored 100 in a game, dominated the one on one match up with the best post defender of all time. Kareem came into the NBA with a teammate like Oscar, his finals arguments are moot. Wilt went against dynasties falling just short on numerous occasions.

Chronz
09-20-2013, 03:26 AM
He doesnt need to average those numbers to have better production tho. Inflation can't be accounted for to some degree.

I know. I'm just stating that Wilt's numbers are highly inflated and should be thrown out in the garbage. I don't think he would average 50/25 in any era, regardless of how good he was. It's hard to calculate the difference between eras but I gotta give it to Kareem. I'm sure neither of them are wrong answers but he sure as hell accomplished just about everything you could ask for in a player.
I know what your trying to say but why would it matter given what I said. Its not inflation if you adjust for pace of play and other era translations. Kareem and Wilts eras overlapped quite abit.

asandhu23
09-20-2013, 03:29 AM
Wilt and there's honestly no real comparison. Wilt has his own record books, played every minute of seasons, scored 100 in a game, dominated the one on one match up with the best post defender of all time. Kareem came into the NBA with a teammate like Oscar, his finals arguments are moot. Wilt went against dynasties falling just short on numerous occasions.


Often in game 7 of NBA finals and against superstacked Russell's teams.

asandhu23
09-20-2013, 03:35 AM
Hey Bruno87,
Succinct.

When I think "What If?" I ask:
What if Red Auerbach had been Wilt's coach? Boston = few if any Chips. Wilt = GOAT (end of discussion).
That's how WAY better Red was than any and all the coaches Wilt ever had. And Wilt did lose some close series to the C's and the C's won many a very-close series; Red was worth MORE than a point or 3 a game.


He would have been too. Red tried to get high school Wilt to go to Harvard so he could use territorial draft pick. Then there was a rule change which made it possible for territorial draft picks to be used on high school players and the rest is history. Its one of the things Wilt mentions in his first book.

asandhu23
09-20-2013, 03:37 AM
Btw, Kareem Abdul Jabbar himself says Wilt Chamberlain is the best center ever.

remember the controversial letter he sent to Scottie Pippen?



How Soon They Forget: An Open Letter to Scottie Pippen

Dear Scottie,

I have nothing but respect for you my friend as an athlete and knowledgeable basketball mind. But you are way off in your assessment of who is the greatest player of all time and the greatest scorer of all time. Your comments are off because of your limited perspective. You obviously never saw Wilt Chamberlain play who undoubtedly was the greatest scorer this game has ever known. When did MJ ever average 50.4 points per game plus 25.7 rebounds? (Wilt in the 1962 season when blocked shot statistics were not kept). We will never accurately know how many shots Wilt blocked. Oh, by the way in 1967 and 68, Wilt was a league leader in assists. Did MJ ever score 100 points in a game? How many times did MJ score more than 60 points in a game? MJ led the league in scoring in consecutive seasons for 10 years but he did this in an NBA that eventually expanded into 30 teams vs. when Wilt played and there were only 8 teams.

Every team had the opportunity to amass a solid nucleus. Only the cream of the basketball world got to play then. So MJ has to be appraised in perspective. His incredible athletic ability, charisma and leadership on the court helped to make basketball popular around the world -- no question about that. But in terms of greatness, MJ has to take a backseat to The Stilt.

In terms of winning, Michael excelled as both an emotional and scoring leader but Bill Russell’s Celtics won eight consecutive NBA Championships. Bill's rebounding average per game is over 22.5 lifetime, MJs best rebounding years was eight per game (1989). But we will never know exactly how many shots Bill Russell blocked because again, they never kept that statistic while he played. However, if you ask anybody that played against Russell, they will just roll their eyes and say he blocked all the shots he wanted to block in the crucial moments of a game.

Bill played on a total of 11 championship teams and as you very well know, Scottie, the ring is the thing, and everything else is just statistics. So I would advise you to do a little homework before crowning Michael or LeBron with the title of best ever. As dominant as he is, LeBron has yet to win a championship. I must say that it looks like Miami has finally put the team together that will change that circumstance. Its my hope that today’s players get a better perspective on exactly what has been done in this league in the days of yore.

Affectionately,
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar,
NBA’s All-Time Leading Scorer


http://lakersblog.latimes.com/lakersblog/2011/05/kareem-abdul-jabbar-questions-scottie-pippens-argument-that-lebron-james-may-be-the-greatest-player-.html

bagwell368
09-20-2013, 07:02 AM
Wilt and there's honestly no real comparison. Wilt has his own record books, played every minute of seasons, scored 100 in a game, dominated the one on one match up with the best post defender of all time. Kareem came into the NBA with a teammate like Oscar, his finals arguments are moot. Wilt went against dynasties falling just short on numerous occasions.

Bill was a great post defender in his time, not sure that translates to say Hakeem's time. IMO Hakeem was better, and so are a few more in absolute terms (TD, KG, Robinson, Mutombo, etc.) given the much higher level of athletic competition they faced compared to Bill.

Oscar was not on the Bucks Jabbar's 1st year, he was dealt for before Jabbar's 2nd year - 7 full years after his prime.

Wilt was in the Finals 4 times, winning two (beating the Celts in the ECF once getting to the first. Did not face them in the other one); and Wilt lost twice in the Finals, both times to the Celts. Wilt's teams lost in the EC two other times to the Celts. "Just short" is not how it looked or felt then, and it's not how it looks on paper now. Russell's final year the Celts were old and flimsy beating the vaunted Lakers in LA in Game 7 by 2 with Wilt shooting 4 of 13 FT's and hiding under a rock is not close, it was an epic failure.

Wilt's '66-'67 and '72-'73 Championship casts were both as good or better than the Bucks '71 Title team. People forget Jabbar was in his 11th year before he got his 2nd ring, people were starting to talk about him being the next Wilt, but Magic changed all that. Wilt never did play with anyone as great as Magic, nor did he have a team as complete/dominant as the prime Celts except in '73. '67 was also no slouch team.

PhillyFaninLA
09-20-2013, 07:56 AM
I think my top four all time are

1. MJ
2. Magic
3. Wilt
4. (or 3a) KAJ

FlashBolt
09-20-2013, 10:24 AM
I know what your trying to say but why would it matter given what I said. Its not inflation if you adjust for pace of play and other era translations. Kareem and Wilts eras overlapped quite abit.

Which has everything to do with inflation. Not sure if you know the general definition of inflation. It was inflated because for the exact reason. Also, because it's clear Wilt's era was not better than Kareem's era.

Chronz
09-20-2013, 02:42 PM
I know what your trying to say but why would it matter given what I said. Its not inflation if you adjust for pace of play and other era translations. Kareem and Wilts eras overlapped quite abit.

Which has everything to do with inflation. Not sure if you know the general definition of inflation. It was inflated because for the exact reason. Also, because it's clear Wilt's era was not better than Kareem's era.
If its inflation doesn't that just mean your lookin at the wrong numbers ? Kareems era and Wilts still overlapped.

Pablonovi
09-20-2013, 09:10 PM
I don't think anyone is claiming that Wilt could go for 50 & 25 now. Heck he did that only that one year.

I do think both Wilt and KAJ could regularly finish in the top 5 or so of scorers, getting 25 ppg against today's centers; and be #1 and #2 at the center position; and be in the top 5 in the league defensively ... all of this year-after-year. Who'd stop them (other than being slowed by each other)?

Pablonovi
09-20-2013, 09:17 PM
I think my top four all time are

1. MJ
2. Magic
3. Wilt
4. (or 3a) KAJ

Hey PhillyFaninLA,
I've got the same All-Time Top 4, but in a different order:
1. KAJ (of the Top 4: most Finals, a Lot More Great Years, SKY HOOK = unique & most dominant weapon ever)
2. Magic (best teammate ever; 8 Finals)
3. MJ (#1 assassin)
4. Wilt (most dominant-in-one's-own-era ever)

and a gap between them and

#5 (where I'd probably have Shaq, currently, and waiting for LeBron to rack-up enough more quality years to at least pass him and challenge the top 4).

I have said, and believe this to be true, that any of those top 4 are pretty much interchangeable ... i.e., there is NO significant gap amongst them, a legitimate strong case could be made for any order. I would only object if someone were to claim that any of them ranks lower than 5th.

P.S. 99% or 1%?

Pablonovi
09-20-2013, 09:32 PM
Btw, Kareem Abdul Jabbar himself says Wilt Chamberlain is the best center ever.

remember the controversial letter he sent to Scottie Pippen?




http://lakersblog.latimes.com/lakersblog/2011/05/kareem-abdul-jabbar-questions-scottie-pippens-argument-that-lebron-james-may-be-the-greatest-player-.html

Hey asandhu23,
Thanx for posting this KAJ quote.

One thing to keep in mind: while some great athletes take virtually every opportunity to "toot their own horn" (perhaps #1 at this was the NFL's Jim Brown; while it's true he had a lot to "toot" about; I found his self-promoting to be gross, unbecoming, unflattering). Other great athletes take virtually every opportunity to "toot other people's horns". (Some great examples: O.J.Simpson (he was THE best - always righteously complimenting other athletes; Dr. J (what an ambassador for the ABA-NBA he was); Bill Walton (as good as O.J.; gave/wrote the most fabulous (and correct) commentaries about such as: Wilt, KAJ, Russell, MJ, Bird).

KAJ was a remarkably introverted man. This made for lousy interviews (and, of course, the interviewers didn't respond very well to this in print and on the air; and this has greatly hurt his ranking by subsequent generations). BUT, he has given a number of remarkable commentaries on other players; this one about Wilt is exemplary.)

Other great athletes have given any number of smart and dumb commentaries. Magic, for example, has said some very sharp, some very dumb and some completely-contradictory things. MJ has done some "strange" things, seemingly clearly driven by the agenda of protecting his own ranking vs would-be challengers.

How are we to know EXACTLY what their agenda was when they spoke? One would think that when they praise other athletes, especially competitors (either OF their own era; or FOR over-all ranking); then such commentaries would be more valuable. On the other hand, some people (athletes included) have the habit of NOT praising themselves; and, perhaps, over-stating the case for others.

Therefore, we are left with taking-with-a-grain-of-salt what one great says about others.

On the other hand, imo KAJ's advice to Pippen (and the newer generations in general) is spot-on: "Pay attention to your history too, before opinionating about ranking questions". (paraphrased).

asandhu23
09-20-2013, 11:31 PM
Pablo, thing about Wilt is pretty much every one who ever played or coaches with Wilt and against Wilt toots his horns.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/sports/nba/daily/oct99/13/react13.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STXbuXGPdoY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrpmGuCmGnc

Pablonovi
09-21-2013, 01:01 AM
KAJ's time? Until the ABA was done I would disagree the NBA Center talent pool was quite weak. Then the talent pool grew again in what in hindsight was the best era for C's in NBA history, which KAJ just touches the early part of.

So, no, IMO most of KAJ's career the talent pool wasn't substantially better then the '65+ part of Wilt's career.

Hey bagwell,
Let's not get carried away about the supposed weakness at Center in the NBA during KAJ's career, ok?
Here's a list of arguably the best 25 players in the 9 years of the ABA:
*Rick Barry
*Ron Boone
*Larry Brown
*Roger Brown
*Don Buse
*Mack Calvin
*Jim Chones
*Billy Cunningham
*Louie Dampier
*Mel Daniels
*Julius "Dr. J" Erving
*Donnie Freeman
*George "Ice Man" Gervin
*Artis Gilmore
*"'Jerry Harkness
*Connie Hawkins
*Spencer Haywood
*Dan Issel
*Bobby Jones
*Jimmy Jones
*Larry Jones
*Moses Malone
*George McGinnis
*Charlie Scott
*David "Skywalker" Thompson

The Great ABA Centers were:
Mel Daniels
Dan Issel
Artis Gilmore
Moses Malone (but he was just starting out, so he wasn't that great in his 2 ABA years: 17ppg, 13 rpg).

KAJ's Milwaukee Years were his PEAK Years. He was FAR AND AWAY the best Center in both the NBA-ABA during those years.

KAJ won 5 Consecutive All-NBA First-Team awards during the time of the ABA; and in each of those 5 years he was better than: Daniels, Issel, Gilmore and Moses Malone (I don't think any serious critic of ABA-NBA history would deny this).

Then he won 5 More All-NBA First-Team awards, and 4 More All-NBA Second-Team awards AFTER the merger.

KAJ battled the following Great NBA Centers:

Dan Issel (he was still Great)
Artis Gilmore (he was still Great)
Willis Reed (he was Great then, he finished 1st in KAJ's rookie year; 2nd to KAJ the next year).
Wilt Chamberlain (he was still Great)
Dave Cowers (he was Great for those years, beating KAJ in 1975)
Bob McAdoo (he was Great for those years, beating KAJ in 1975)
Bill Walton (he had two of the Greatest Years ever, beating KAJ in 78)
Moses Malone (he was GREAT for all those years, beating KAJ in 79, 82 83 & 85)
Robert Parish (he was a Top 4 Center for 15 years; "beating" * KAJ in 82; * SN & I disagree)
Hakeem Olajuwan (he was Great those years; beating KAJ ONCE KAJ started to decline)

That's 10 GREAT Centers (plus Mel Daniels,who he didn't face; but KAJ was clearly better than him).

NO WAY CAN ANYBODY CLAIM THAT KAJ FACED A WEAK-CENTERED LEAGUE, YIKES!

bagwell368
09-21-2013, 08:31 AM
Let's not get carried away about the supposed weakness at Center in the NBA during KAJ's career, ok?

I don't believe I said his whole career, did I? I certainly didn't mean too, as my prior writings on this topic would show.


NO WAY CAN ANYBODY CLAIM THAT KAJ FACED A WEAK-CENTERED LEAGUE, YIKES!

I do. I've spent a lot of time looking into this, I stand by what I say. The NBA between Russell's retirement and the end of the ABA was a weak era for Centers relative to other positions, with only this era in any serious competition for that dubious honor (I don't count pre 1960 at all).

It was mostly due to the ABA deficit and also due to the athletic weakness of the time relative to later, and the available North American stock (I.E. no foreign players) being a small talent pool relative to 1985-2005.

You know just talking about the Centers and big 4's (where was Chones, Haywood, McGinnis) on your list? Means you are just looking at one on one match-ups. What about helping out on Dr. J? Rick Barry? and others? The ABA players merging means some of the feeble NBA players play less or are gone. More pressure on Jabbar on both sides of the ball , lesser performance, less team wins than he had.

You forgot Thurmond
You forgot Hayes although he's another faux Center

Also why are we talking Parish? Parish didn't play in the era I'm talking about.
Hakeem also, and Hakeem dominated an aging Jabbar.

McAddo was a big scorer for 3 years, a stretch shooting 4, that got hurt young and was never the same again. not a real C not a major opponent, and later a teammate.
Issel was a PF in todays game that didn't play elite D, not a Center to be used against giants.
Reed another PF if he debuted post 1975, and he only had a couple of years of greatness when KAJ was active. short career and not a Center, but a low post #4.
Cowens another PF that like I said beat up on Kareem for a time, but not for long.
Wilt was great for what 2 years of KAJ's career? Then he focused on D, passing, and adjusting to his decline.

I'm sorry, but that list is anything but daunting or convincing competition for KAJ. It's no match for Hakeem's era, not even close.

I don't dispute that Jabbar was the superior Center in the NBA from his 2nd year until sometime in the early/mid 80's. After all I have him #2 all time, how bad could he be?

Jabbar was the best Center in his time and statistically it showed most when the ABA was playing at full tilt. If those players were in the NBA, than Jabbar's peak would have been cut into, and his numbers such as Win Shares instead of being:

.326
.340
.322
.250
.222
.242
.283
.257

By year are going to be cut down due to more team losses and more competition, more effort on D, more pressure on his O. Figure -80 on those first 3, and -35 on the last 5.

Forget the Win Shares as value, the Win Shares as an index to the competition is what I am after, those first 3 years it's a matter of Jabbar being god or the players in the league sucking. Well it's not a 100% either way, but relative to the rest of Jabbar's career those 3 years he faced less competition which pushed his number through the roof. Could he maintain that level if he debuted 15 years later? I don't see how.

I'm not impressed by names, I'm impressed by what goes on on the floor. Usually when talking teams or talking players you look at what they do in their prime in their time. But when talking all time lists, you have to look era vs era. Center play was strongest IMO '63-'69, '85-'05 looking at other positions vs Centers of the time.

Jabbar had to play who was in front of him, he couldn't be blamed that Russell retired, but he can't be given credit either. In the field of data that contains competitive value of other players it's low early in his career. It is much higher his last 4. Now, part of that is age decline, but part of that is the players were better.

Rating the top 8 Centers is like the heavyweight division in the early/mid 70's. Norton can beat Ali (but got no respect), but Foreman can kill Norton, but not Ali. Frazier and Ali have mixed results, but Foreman can kill Frazier.

Having the example of what Wilt did to Jabbar very early, and Malone middle/late shows us Jabbar isn't bullet proof. Even Cowens would outplay Jabbar regularly over a 2-3 year period - really a 6' 9" tough guy besting the GOAT?

Than we look at Jabbars playoffs (mixed results/performance), his part of his rings (not so big at the end), and the time/players he faced, and yes compared to Shaq, Robinson, Ewing, Hakeem, Morning, etc. he gets negative points BECAUSE his prime was smack dab in the middle of one of the weakest eras in NBA history for Centers . How could it be any other way?

Todays weakness is more due to the 3 pointer and the lack of interest in teaching/learning low post offense - but I'm not nominating anyone from now for top 10 Center of all time. Howard is a disgrace IMO, I wouldn't have that guy on my team. Only TD is anything like an old line Center, with KG's defense putting him in the conversation, but his offense is more like Cowens (IE high post).

I know this. Take the 1965 Celts - make two of them and get rid of one Russell and sub in either KG or TD and it's over, the Russell team gets baked. Only Wilt from before Jabbar might hold up or win. Only Jabbar and Malone before Hakeem works too - unless I ditch Russell and go with prime Wilt (not 50/25 Wilt, that guy was not his prime the '66-'67 passing Wilt was his prime) or prime Malone. Well, I don't see a clear win for KAJ there. In fact the post 1979 kAJ couldn't hack Malone.

So there you go Jabbar the #1 historically, like Ali, but like Ali he's vulnerable and his wins over some of his opponents have to be discounted because they were so weak - like in Jabbars 2nd-4th years in particular. It's like me at age 30 going back to play HS Varsity.... obviously I'm going to go off.

Also, as nasty as Kareem was in his spots on offense, he had to be fed, he couldn't put the ball on the floor in traffic (few bigs can), and his D outside of blocks and D rebounds was not fierce, and he wasn't effective more than 13' from the hoop on D, and he wouldn't fight in the trenches for offensive rebounds, he would snag them if they were there, unless Malone/Cowens was beating on his ribs. The guy wasn't perfect, I hope nobody was of that opinion. His longevity and offensive efficiency are his calling cards.

Pablonovi
09-21-2013, 12:45 PM
I don't believe I said his whole career, did I? I certainly didn't mean too, as my prior writings on this topic would show.



I do. I've spent a lot of time looking into this, I stand by what I say. The NBA between Russell's retirement and the end of the ABA was a weak era for Centers relative to other positions, with only this era in any serious competition for that dubious honor (I don't count pre 1960 at all).

It was mostly due to the ABA deficit and also due to the athletic weakness of the time, and the available North American stock (I.E. no foreign players) being a small talent pool relative to 1985-2005.

You know just talking about the Centers and big 4's (where was Chones, Haywood, McGinnis) on your list means you are just looking at one on one match-ups. What about helping out on Dr. J? Rick Barry? and others? The ABA players merge in means some of the feeble NBA players play less or are gone. More pressure on Jabbar on both sides of the ball.

You forgot Thurmond
You forgot Hayes although he's another faux Center

Also why are we talking Parish? Parish didn't play in the era I'm talking about. Hakeem also, and Hakeem dominated an aging Jabbar.

McAddo was a big scorer for 3 years, a stretch shooting 4, not a real C not a major opponent, and later a teammate.
Issel was a PF in todays game that didn't play elite D, not a Center
Reed another PF if he debuted post 1975, and he only had a couple of years of greatness when KAJ was active. short career and not a Center, but a low post #4.
Cowens another PF that like I said beat up on Kareem for a time, but not for long.
Wilt was great for what 2 years of KAJ's career? Then he became a complimentary player

I'm sorry, but that list is anything but daunting or convincing competition for KAJ. It's no match for Hakeem's era, not even close.

I don't dispute that Jabbar was the superior Center in the NBA from his 2nd year until sometime in the early/mid 80's. After all I have him #2 all time, how bad could he be?

Jabbar was the best Center, and statistically it showed most when the ABA was playing at full tilt. If those players were in the NBA, than Jabbar's peak would have been cut into, and his numbers such as Win Shares instead of being:

.326
.340
.322
.250
.222
.242
.283
.257

are going to be cut down due to more team losses and more competition, more effort on D, more pressure on his O. Figure -80 on those first 3, and -35 on the last 5. Forget the Win Shares as value, the Win Shares as an index to the competition is what I am after, those first 3 years it's a matter of Jabbar being god or the players in the league sucking. Well it's not a 100% either way, but relative to the rest of Jabbar's career those 3 years he faced less competition which pushed his number through the roof. Could he maintain that level if he debuted 15 years later? I don't see how.

I'm not impressed by names, I'm impressed by on the floor. Usually when talking teams or talking players you look at what they do in their prime in their time. But when talking all time lists, you have to look era vs era. Center play was strongest IMO '63-'69, '85-'05 looking at other positions vs Centers of the time.

Jabbar had to play who was in front of him, he couldn't be blamed that Russell retired, but he can't be given credit either. In the field of data that contains competitive value of other players it's low early in his career and much higher his last 4. Now, part of that is age decline, but part of that is the players were better.

Rating the top 8 Centers is like the heavyweight division in the early/mid 70's. Norton can beat Ali (but got no respect), but Foreman can kill Norton, but not Ali. Frazier and Ali have mixed results, but Foreman can kill Frazier.

Having the example of what Wilt did to Jabbar very early, and Malone middle/late shows us Jabbar isn't bullet proof. Even Cowens would outplay Jabbar regularly over a 2-3 year period - really a 6' 9" tough guy besting the GOAT?

Than we look at Jabbars playoffs (mixed results/performance), his part of his rings (not so big at the end), and the time/players he faced, and yes compared to Shaq, Robinson, Ewing, Hakeem, Morning, etc. he gets negative points BECAUSE his prime was smack dab in the middle of one of the weakest eras in NBA history for Centers . How could it be any other way?

Todays weakness is more due to the 3 pointer and the lack of interest in teaching/learning low post offense - but I'm not nominating anyone from now for top 10 Center of all time. Howard is a disgrace IMO, I wouldn't have that guy on my team. Only TD is anything like an old line Center, with KG's defense putting him in the conversation, but his offense is more like Cowens (IE high post).

I know this. Take the 1965 Celts - make two of them and get rid of one Russell and sub in either KG or TD and it's over, the Russell team gets baked. Only Wilt from before Jabbar might hold up or win. Only Jabbar before Hakeem works too - unless I ditch Russell and go with prime Wilt (not 50/25 Wilt, that guy was not his prime the '66-'67 passing Wilt was his prime) or prime Malone. Well, I don't see a clear win for KAJ there. In fact the post 1979 Wilt couldn't hack Malone.

So there you go Jabbar the #1 historically, like Ali, but like Ali he's vulnerable and his wins over some of his opponents have to be discounted because they were so weak - like in Jabbars 2nd-4th years in particular. It's like me at age 30 going back to play HS Varsity.... obviously I'm going to go off.

Also, as nasty as Kareem was in his spots on offense, he had to be fed, he couldn't put the ball on the floor in traffic (few bigs can), and his D outside of blocks and D rebounds was not fierce, and he wasn't effective more than 13' from the hoop on D, and he wouldn't fight in the trenches for offensive rebounds, he would snag them if they were there, unless Malone/Cowens was beating on his ribs. The guy wasn't perfect, I hope nobody was of that opinion. His longevity and offensive efficiency are his calling cards.

Hey bagwell,
There's an amazing amount of deep (and, at least, mostly) correct analysis in your post here. A Most-Worthy post. What a credit you are to both NBA-Fandom generally and PSD-NBA in particular (I know you post in other forums here; I just am NOT in the position, yet at least, to comment on your quality there; though based on here, I have little doubt that you're probably consistent in your very fine quality).

I wanted to get that mini-paragraph in immediately upon seeing your post (for you, me and especially the great majority around here who don't have the first-hand knowledge (if you will) of that period).

I don't have the time right a the moment (but perhaps later today?) to offer my response/refutation of/to the main points about which I disagree. Some of our differences might be a little sharp; but, in the larger scheme of things, we fundamentally, overwhelming agree. After all we both have KAJ in the Top 2 All-Time GOAT Rankings; as well as very closely agreeing about the GOAT rankings of a number of other All-Time Greats.

You obviously put a lot of work/thought into this.

Again super-high-quality post!

P.S. A very minor criticism: Your use of the Russell Era Celtics to compare the relative merits of some later centers was hampered by a lack of clarity of exactly what you were trying to do (figuratively setting up that team against itself, but replacing Bill with KAJ or other later centers). It took me a few readings to feel like I was beginning to grasp your point. imo It was worth the effort to make the point; perhaps, a slight-re-write would vastly improve its usefulness?

bagwell368
09-21-2013, 12:50 PM
Thanks, use the latest version, I cleaned up some mistakes, confused writing..

Pablonovi
09-21-2013, 12:54 PM
Thanks, use the latest version, I cleaned up some mistakes, confused writing..

Hey bagwell (is it ok to call you "bags"?; somehow my brain wants me to do that.)
"Thanx".
You're most welcome, credit where credit is due.

Excellent; and
boy are you quick, on-top-of-things!
Nice.

Any chance you might be able to "highlight" your changes; say using bold or something? Why? Well, it's one mighty and mighty-long post. Such highlighting would make it a lot easier to focus on your "improvements" without necessarily re-reading it in its entirety.

SLY WILLIAMS
09-21-2013, 07:46 PM
I wish we could have seen both men in their prime head to head.

Back when my Knicks were really bad one year we played the Lakers. Mind you this was when Kareem was past his physical prime. The Knicks had Kenny the animal Bannister playing center. Kenny was around 6-8 or 6-9 and full of energy. In the first minutes of the game Kenny scores easily on Kareem. I think he may have had 1 or 2 dunks. There was a time out called. Kenny who was not much of a ball player tells the Knicks players and coach (Hubie Brown) "Get me the ball. Ive got this guy" speaking of Kareem. Kareem at 37 then goes on to light Kenny (and other Knicks) up for around 39 points, lol.

Pablonovi
09-21-2013, 08:17 PM
I wish we could have seen both men in their prime head to head.

Back when my Knicks were really bad one year we played the Lakers. Mind you this was when Kareem was past his physical prime. The Knicks had Kenny the animal Bannister playing center. Kenny was around 6-8 or 6-9 and full of energy. In the first minutes of the game Kenny scores easily on Kareem. I think he may have had 1 or 2 dunks. There was a time out called. Kenny who was not much of a ball player tells the Knicks players and coach (Hubie Brown) "Get me the ball. Ive got this guy" speaking of Kareem. Kareem at 37 then goes on to light Kenny (and other Knicks) up for around 39 points, lol.

Hey SlyWilliams,
Nice story. Reminds me of the game (and rest of the series) right after the Finals "Massacre" Game where the C's torched the Lakers and people openly raised the question of whether Kareem was "done". After game two, the only reference made to that question was to embarrassingly laugh that anyone could have thought so because of one single (trash) game from him.

A couple of other KAJ late-career notes:

The time-gap between his two fMVP's was 15 years - astonishing, really.

KAJ's 18th year was a high quality year. ABA-NBA combined only 10 players have ever played more years than that - and NONE of them had such a great 18th, or 18 consecutive great ones. Most centers (meaning ALL the great majority of centers who were good enough to play in the NBA) never had one year as good as KAJ's 19th. It was only his 20th and last that was, for him, "mediocre".

bagwell368
09-21-2013, 08:57 PM
^ No doubt as I said Kareem has longevity and offensive efficiency bought and paid for.

The issue then is how many holes can we poke in his game/ratings and when we are done what will it say?

I have KAJ #1 all time Center, #2 GOAT - but that's vs players of his time.

Against Wilt, Malone, Shaq, and Hakeem I don't know that I would take Wilt against any of them head to head (all prime age/abilities). Therefor in specific match-ups KAJ is vulnerable to being dominated.

The best example of this is Malone playing for a meh Houston team knocking off a much more talented Laker team with a near prime KAJ. In the '83 Finals, fronting a much better team, Malone again gassed KAJ.

Later when he was old Hakeem nailed him a number of times, early when Wilt was still near prime he tossed KAJ around a few times as well. I'm quite sure an early prime Shaq would dominate any era KAJ. Cowens held Jabbar to a similar score or beat him starting in 1973-74 for a couple of years (rough housed him, made KAJ follow him outside, out ran him down floor, etc.). That's was Jabbar's prime, and given Cowens was my favorite player for decades, I know him well and his weaknesses. He could play in the 1985-2005 period, but as a #4, not up to dealing with the elite Centers of that time.... hmmm.

Note: the changes in docs wasn't so huge as to need to be underlined. If you get confused or say what? than read that section again in the later doc and it will fine.

1987 cool story, as I said before Parish was never able to deal with KAJ, also McHale had a broken foot, and the C's were gassed from playing too much in the regular season because of Bias's deciding not to join in.


1970: Lost: title to Knicks 4-1 as rookie. Reed holds his own.

1971: Win: the title against the Bullets (Monroe, Unseld, Marin) behind Oscar, Dandridge, and KAJ

1972: Lose: the 62 win team loses to the 69 win Lakers, Wilt is awful overall, and in particular from the FT line, but doesn't matter

1973: Lose in the 1st round to the Barry/Thurmond/Cazzie Warriors

1974: Lose Finals to the Celts behind Cowens, Havlicek, White

1975: Miss playoffs

1976: Miss playoffs

1977: Lose Finals to Portland (Walton, Lucas) in 4 straight.

1978: Lose 1st round to Sonics in 3. A young Sikma and DJ and old Gus too much for KAJ, Nixon, Dantley

1979: Lose WC Semis to Seattle in 5. Sikma not so great, but KAJ can't make it rain...

******* KAJ gets a gift - Magic. A better player than Bird ever played with, or Russell, or Jordan, KG, TD, Hakeem, Robinson, Malone, etc...

Well that's good, because so far, KAJ has 1 title, 2 miss playoffs, and 7 lost Series. He's been played to all but even by the likes of Cowens, Reed, Sikma *************

1980: Win title, KAJ is the best player, Wilkes and Nixon and of course Magic make it happen

1981: Lose (WHAT!!!!) the 54 win '81 Lakers going down to the Rockets because KAJ couldn't handle Moses

1982: Win, but Magic is better in season, and owns the playoffs. The #2 GOAT at age 34 lapped by a 22 year old kid.

1983: Lose (WHAT!!!) with 2 near GOAT's? '83 Lakers with 58 wins that got drubbed in 4 straight by a great team with a Moses that KAJ again couldn't handle. KAJ looks old and befuddled at times.

1984 Lose (???) in the Finals, Celts too good, KAJ out of gas as he sits on the bench sucking O2 for a bit.

1985 Win, KAJ has a good year very good for a 37 year old, but, in the playoffs Magic is the guy with his sidekick Worthy, and KAJ as the 3rd banana.

1986 Lose (???) 62 win Lakers lose again to 51 win Houston but this time 23 year old Hakeem is the culpret posting a 31/11.2 in 5 games vs KAJ's 27/7.2

1987: see above

1988: Win, KAJ is now maybe the sixth best player on the team playing less than 29 MPG. Lakers could have won with Paul Mokeski playing Center.

1989: Lose, I felt pity for him this year, he was done and he was brutal in the playoffs., should have retired after '88. But he needed the money since his home and his LP collection burned down.



KAJ might be a NBA demi-god, but his feet are made of clay - and they are big.

Pablonovi
09-21-2013, 10:24 PM
^ No doubt as I said Kareem has longevity and offensive efficiency bought and paid for.

The issue then is how many holes can we poke in his game/ratings and when we are done what will it say?

I have KAJ #1 all time Center, #2 GOAT - but that's vs players of his time.

Against Wilt, Malone, Shaq, and Hakeem I don't know that I would take Wilt against any of them head to head (all prime age/abilities). Therefor in specific match-ups KAJ is vulnerable to being dominated.

The best example of this is Malone playing for a meh Houston team knocking off a much more talented Laker team with a near prime KAJ. In the '83 Finals, fronting a much better team, Malone again gassed KAJ.

Later when he was old Hakeem nailed him a number of times, early when Wilt was still near prime he tossed KAJ around a few times as well. I'm quite sure an early prime Shaq would dominate any era KAJ. Cowens held Jabbar to a similar score or beat him starting in 1973-74 for a couple of years (rough housed him, made KAJ follow him outside, out ran him down floor, etc.). That's was Jabbar's prime, and given Cowens was my favorite player for decades, I know him well and his weaknesses. He could play in the 1985-2005 period, but as a #4, not up to dealing with the elite Centers of that time.... hmmm.

Note: the changes in docs wasn't so huge as to need to be underlined. If you get confused or say what? than read that section again in the later doc and it will fine.

1987 cool story, as I said before Parish was never able to deal with KAJ, also McHale had a broken foot, and the C's were gassed from playing too much in the regular season because of Bias's deciding not to join in.


1970: Lost: title to Knicks 4-1 as rookie. Reed holds his own.

1971: Win: the title against the Bullets (Monroe, Unseld, Marin) behind Oscar, Dandridge, and KAJ

1972: Lose: the 62 win team loses to the 69 win Lakers, Wilt is awful overall, and in particular from the FT line, but doesn't matter

1973: Lose in the 1st round to the Barry/Thurmond/Cazzie Warriors

1974: Lose Finals to the Celts behind Cowens, Havlicek, White

1975: Miss playoffs

1976: Miss playoffs

1977: Lose Finals to Portland (Walton, Lucas) in 4 straight.

1978: Lose 1st round to Sonics in 3. A young Sikma and DJ and old Gus too much for KAJ, Nixon, Dantley

1979: Lose WC Semis to Seattle in 5. Sikma not so great, but KAJ can't make it rain...

******* KAJ gets a gift - Magic. A better player than Bird ever played with, or Russell, or Jordan, KG, TD, Hakeem, Robinson, Malone, etc...

Well that's good, because so far, KAJ has 1 title, 2 miss playoffs, and 7 lost Series. He's been played to all but even by the likes of Cowens, Reed, Sikma *************

1980: Win title, KAJ is the best player, Wilkes and Nixon and of course Magic make it happen

1981: Lose (WHAT!!!!) the 54 win '81 Lakers going down to the Rockets because KAJ couldn't handle Moses

1982: Win, but Magic is better in season, and owns the playoffs. The #2 GOAT at age 34 lapped by a 22 year old kid.

1983: Lose (WHAT!!!) with 2 near GOAT's? '83 Lakers with 58 wins that got drubbed in 4 straight by a great team with a Moses that KAJ again couldn't handle. KAJ looks old and befuddled at times.

1984 Lose (???) in the Finals, Celts too good, KAJ out of gas as he sits on the bench sucking O2 for a bit.

1985 Win, KAJ has a good year very good for a 37 year old, but, in the playoffs Magic is the guy with his sidekick Worthy, and KAJ as the 3rd banana.

1986 Lose (???) 62 win Lakers lose again to 51 win Houston but this time 23 year old Hakeem is the culpret posting a 31/11.2 in 5 games vs KAJ's 27/7.2

1987: see above

1988: Win, KAJ is now maybe the sixth best player on the team playing less than 29 MPG. Lakers could have won with Paul Mokeski playing Center.

1989: Lose, I felt pity for him this year, he was done and he was brutal in the playoffs., should have retired after '88. But he needed the money since his home and his LP collection burned down.



KAJ might be a NBA demi-god, but his feet are made of clay - and they are big.

Hey bagwell,
"With supporters of KAJ like you; he doesn't need detractors". hehe
I DO get where you're coming from; but (for example, if anyone were to miss you saying, "I have KAJ #1 all time Center, #2 GOAT ...") they'd probably take your series of KAJ-related posts like your aim is to undermine as best you can that very statement.

You have here a massive series of statements that taken in their totality paint an overwhelmingly negative picture of KAJ. Personally, imo, much more so than in your other recent posts, you go consistently overboard vs KAJ in your year-by-year analysis here. I don't, at the moment have the inclination to go over this point by point; perhaps I eventually will. Let it just suffice to say here that:
With this post of yours, you and I much more strongly disagree than in any other post either of us has previously posted.

You yourself elsewhere and recently state that KAJ had 16 Great Seasons compared to MJ's 10. That's basically the exact way I see this particular aspect of a comparison of the two (16-to-10 or 17-to-11). btw, that's over 50% MORE Great Seasons, a HUGE Gap.)

With all due respect, however, in the face of a massive amount of you recently pointing out what you believe to be KAJ's large number of major failings; perhaps, you'd help your case by taking the time to, yes, actually make your case for why/how you said:
"I have KAJ #1 all time Center, #2 GOAT ..."
and also, paraphrased:
"KAJ and MJ are the only two true candidates for GOAT #1"

bagwell368
09-21-2013, 11:22 PM
Hey bagwell,
"With supporters of KAJ like you; he doesn't need detractors". hehe
I DO get where you're coming from; but (for example, if anyone were to miss you saying, "I have KAJ #1 all time Center, #2 GOAT ...") they'd probably take your series of KAJ-related posts like your aim is to undermine as best you can that very statement.

I can see that, most people would be doing just that. Having a mind very honed in on fault/error/mistake detection and analysis, anyone hands me a guy and says he's the best, write a 10 page article to support it, first thing I'm going to do is look for the holes, all of them, and get a look at the guy with the max accuracy I can muster. I almost always do that process on my own, but, the questions the past few weeks have been deep so I'm revisiting things I believed I had figured out years ago.

Jabbar has such a great case to be made on the pro side. But given the length of time he played in such a critical/formative time for the NBA, and was vulnerable to some players that he makes a great case to tease out the negative issues from too.

In less words if you can't both extoll and criticize something/one for what it is - than you don't understand it well enough to be talking about it - IMO. P.S. this logic/way of being does not translate to the realm of personal relationships - or god forbid marriage.


You have here a massive series of statements that taken in their totality paint an overwhelmingly negative picture of KAJ. Personally, imo, much more so than in your other recent posts, you go consistently overboard vs KAJ in your year-by-year analysis here.

The man has titles, that's what most people think about (along with the sky hook, the goggles, and the sheer length of the man). But his career was long, he was in playoffs a lot. He dominated some and won and dominated some and lost. He wasn't the big banana for most of his titles - a strange thing for a GOAT. His gap beteen title 1 and 2 was very long, and some of those teams were real good, where was the GOAT then? If Nixon was his PG and Magic ended up elsewhere - then what? Kiss all but 1 or maybe 2 titles goodbye, and he might be thinking about retiring around 1985. I don't get how little people think about the influx of Magic changing things for KAJ, then throw in a few more of those 1980-1987 Lakers and like I said, they'd win titles with Paul Mokeski at C.

I wouldn't give my year by year snippets the level of "analysis" BTW, more like snippets to illustrate what was happening year to year.


With this post of yours, you and I much more strongly disagree than in any other post either of us has previously posted.

I call 'em like I see them, you do too.


You yourself elsewhere and recently state that KAJ had 16 Great Seasons compared to MJ's 10.

I believe I added that if KAJ years were adjusted for era, that Jordan's best 8 years would be better than all of Jabbars years. There is GREAT and great, and Jabbar had IMO a lot more great seasons than GREST seasons compared to Jordan, that's a rather key point.


That's basically the exact way I see this particular aspect of a comparison of the two (16-to-10 or 17-to-11). btw, that's over 50% MORE Great Seasons, a HUGE Gap.)

Each great season is not equal to all other great seasons, and a great season stands below a GREAT season. Jordan was THE man in all six of his titles, Jabbar was the the man in what 2 of them and tied for another and it took him many more years to get his.

Jordan never lost a Finals when his team won over 55 games in a season, KAJ did that 7 times, I just looked it up, that really is another major kick at KAJ. Losing in '84 to the Celts, well, that's a murderous match, but losing to Houston in '81 WTH? Hakeem in and Sampson in '86? Some of those Bucks teams got smoked too.


With all due respect, however, in the face of a massive amount of you recently pointing out what you believe to be KAJ's large number of major failings; perhaps, you'd help your case by taking the time to, yes, actually make your case for why/how you said:
"I have KAJ #1 all time Center, #2 GOAT ..."
and also, paraphrased:
"KAJ and MJ are the only two true candidates for GOAT #1"

I have an all time team (for the purposed of playing together, not a bunch of scorers that need 3 balls on the court) and a peak team. I don't have Jabbar on either one, although he would be on the 2nd team for both most likely. That means given his match-up issues and my issue with his peak in the weak league, that he doesn't go w/o criticism for my purposes personally - but why can't I hold that view on one hand and agree that he's in terms of historical value the #1 Center at the same time? *

In 1985 I'm sure I had Russell then KAJ as my 1/2.

I started to think after 1986 I would have to make room for Hakeem some day, by the end of 1995, it was clearly a yes. Then Shaq. Then more recently I started to rethink Russell. I'd get cuffed by some of my relatives if they read what I've written about him in PSD the last 3 years or so.

Still longevity has value. KAJ's strong points are strong. If you want an 18 year Center and not a 14 year one, who else do you take? He has my respect, he killed Parish, he made Cowens play 3x his normal speed, and he burned out in a scant few years battling KAJ. KAJ is a beast.

Who else gets 3rd BTW? Love Magic and Bird, but both careers are short. Sorry but Kobe is well overrated since he's playing in a mega market now, he's not top 5, not now, not ever. Karl Malone? No. TD? Maybe as high as 6th, not 3rd. James? Might be, can't tell yet. Wilt? too flawed.

Nope. Jordan is the GOAT. KAJ is #2 but he's well down from Jordan IMO. Really the whole top 10 after these two is tough to call, but none of those guys can take 1 or 2 away, not until James finishes his incursion will we find out if he can. Magic gets 3rd, and he like Jordan is on my team, but historically he can't pass KAJ. 4th and below, none of those guys any order can touch the top 2.




* My current top 12 man team (5 year peak) against whomever else (you pick):

5: Hakeem, Shaq
4/3/5: TD, KG, McHale
3: Bird, James
2: Jordan, Allen
2/1: Glove
1: Magic, Kidd

My 5 bigs make up half (or better) of the best low post players ever, and 4 of them have outside games too. All of them are great at D in their prime. McHale doesn't pass (oh well). Shaq is there to deal with the really big Centers and body up KAJ if that's who we face.

Bird and James may end up playing offensively as 1/2/4's as well to get them more looks. Bird not great on ball defender, but he can pass a bit. Him and James may not co-exist well, that's my major concern on that front.

Jordan is I hope the only big scorer, he's got killer D too, and that will to win. Plus if I have him, I don't have to deal with stopping him. Allen is the 3 point dagger that was able to play good D for about 3 years with the C's - ahead of most of the other 2's. Kobe is selfish and doesn't tolerate not being the guy, so he can't play for me, plus he's a borderline low efficiency shooter. Wade can be great, but I think he needs the ball a bit too much, I need some of my guys happy to play 18 a night and not complain.

Glove is in there to stop the hot hand on the other team

Kidd has flaws, but if Magic is getting out quicked, Kidd ought to quiet them down, and he had a period when his D was still good and he was a 3 pt killer too. Plus with Bird, Magic, KG, James, and TD roaming around, the PG here doesn't have to be ball dominant, in fact he can't be.

I wanted guys that could sit on the bench, play D, and pass, and play smart, share, and live with one ball. I wanted guys that burn to win but don't have to get 28 a night to be happy.

ddt
09-22-2013, 08:42 AM
I would pick KAJ. The ultimate team player. There was rumors Wilt was so selfish that he cares all about the stats not winning. But don't get me wrong, both of them are very very Good Players at their positions.

Chronz
09-22-2013, 12:27 PM
[INDENT]
1972: Lose: the 62 win team loses to the 69 win Lakers, Wilt is awful overall, and in particular from the FT line, but doesn't matter

Wilt was far from awful overall. He had KAJ terrified to enter his domain, when winning time came, Wilt was locking him up and stuffing his hooks every which way. Saying Wilt was awful overall is akin to saying KG was awful during many of his series. Dont undersell his defense, it was game changing. His scoring wasn't great but he was at the stage in his career where he was a defense first player.

Chronz
09-22-2013, 12:45 PM
I would pick KAJ. The ultimate team player. There was rumors Wilt was so selfish that he cares all about the stats not winning. But don't get me wrong, both of them are very very Good Players at their positions.
Wilt was given an entirely different responsibility than any other superstar in history, as the main attraction in a infant league, he was tasked with the burden of popularizing a sport that that was still developing during a time when racism was rampant. Where guys like Russ loathed interacting with fans, Wilt was there to sign autographs.

If Wilt comes along in the 70's or later, and someone else had done the landscaping, he would have flourished with the advancements in the game (athletically and coaching wise), as it were he was developing into a complete player by the mid 60's. He wouldn't be told by the team owner to go out and try and score as much as possible to sell tickets if the NBA were a full fledged league, he would abide to whatever the coaches asked because its what he did on numerous occasions. Even when it came at the expense of the team (brush up on Breda Kolf), Wilt was even part of the first team that instituted the morning shoot around, no easy feat back when players were paid pittance.

Im not saying hes perfect, but people think hes a rigid, my way or the highway, coach killing cancer, but he doesn't get enough credit for keeping this game afloat. Hes egotistical but he had a big heart and he was a heady player who sacrificed his game many times. It took longer than it should have, but again, thats due to the era he played in more than anything.


In todays game, no matter how highly Wilt thought of himself, he would not be out on the court the full 48, thats just 1 example of how modern philosophies could have extended Wilt's career.

bagwell368
09-22-2013, 05:44 PM
Wilt was far from awful overall. He had KAJ terrified to enter his domain, when winning time came, Wilt was locking him up and stuffing his hooks every which way. Saying Wilt was awful overall is akin to saying KG was awful during many of his series. Dont undersell his defense, it was game changing. His scoring wasn't great but he was at the stage in his career where he was a defense first player.

I was speed writing, I just glanced at the PPG/RPG and FG% of each game, and Kareem was scoring well. I seriously can't remember the intimidation factor in the series, I remember it more in the prior couple of years. If that's the case, then instead of Wilt being awful, he held/matched/beat KAJ, perhaps a more damning description.

bagwell368
09-22-2013, 05:47 PM
Wilt was given an entirely different responsibility than any other superstar in history, as the main attraction in a infant league, he was tasked with the burden of popularizing a sport that that was still developing during a time when racism was rampant. Where guys like Russ loathed interacting with fans, Wilt was there to sign autographs.

If Wilt comes along in the 70's or later, and someone else had done the landscaping, he would have flourished with the advancements in the game (athletically and coaching wise), as it were he was developing into a complete player by the mid 60's. He wouldn't be told by the team owner to go out and try and score as much as possible to sell tickets if the NBA were a full fledged league, he would abide to whatever the coaches asked because its what he did on numerous occasions. Even when it came at the expense of the team (brush up on Breda Kolf), Wilt was even part of the first team that instituted the morning shoot around, no easy feat back when players were paid pittance.

Im not saying hes perfect, but people think hes a rigid, my way or the highway, coach killing cancer, but he doesn't get enough credit for keeping this game afloat. Hes egotistical but he had a big heart and he was a heady player who sacrificed his game many times. It took longer than it should have, but again, thats due to the era he played in more than anything.


In todays game, no matter how highly Wilt thought of himself, he would not be out on the court the full 48, thats just 1 example of how modern philosophies could have extended Wilt's career.

Nice. I see Wilt's change of focus on scoring to a broader game which bore massive fruit in '66-67 as the true peak of his career not the 50/25 terminal scoring machine with rebounds player.

Chronz
09-22-2013, 07:43 PM
I was speed writing, I just glanced at the PPG/RPG and FG% of each game, and Kareem was scoring well. I seriously can't remember the intimidation factor in the series, I remember it more in the prior couple of years. If that's the case, then instead of Wilt being awful, he held/matched/beat KAJ, perhaps a more damning description.
Yeah I wouldn't go as far as saying Wilt matched him (maybe the year prior when the Milwaukee crowd gave him a standing ovation) but he definitely intimidated him. Kareems own coach would attest to it.

The raw scoring that series was high but he had nights where he shot like 11-33 or something. After the first 2 games, Kareem shot 41%, he relied on nothing but hooks and jumpers after that.

Still, I wouldn't depict Kareem as some sort of loser because of this series, he almost single handedly defeated the team Phil Jackson pegged as the only team capable of giving his Bulls a run for their money. Oscar was hurting bad that series and the Milwaukee media depicted game 2 as a gifted win for the Lakers.

I just took offense to saying Wilt sucked, his offense might have sucked, he was getting old and dealing with a few dings himself but he was focused on 1 job, containing Kareem, and he did a better job of that than anyone not named Thurmond.

Pablonovi
09-23-2013, 12:19 PM
I can see that, most people would be doing just that. Having a mind very honed in on fault/error/mistake detection and analysis, anyone hands me a guy and says he's the best, write a 10 page article to support it, first thing I'm going to do is look for the holes, all of them, and get a look at the guy with the max accuracy I can muster. I almost always do that process on my own, but, the questions the past few weeks have been deep so I'm revisiting things I believed I had figured out years ago.

Jabbar has such a great case to be made on the pro side. But given the length of time he played in such a critical/formative time for the NBA, and was vulnerable to some players that he makes a great case to tease out the negative issues from too.

In less words if you can't both extoll and criticize something/one for what it is - than you don't understand it well enough to be talking about it - IMO. P.S. this logic/way of being does not translate to the realm of personal relationships - or god forbid marriage.



The man has titles, that's what most people think about (along with the sky hook, the goggles, and the sheer length of the man). But his career was long, he was in playoffs a lot. He dominated some and won and dominated some and lost. He wasn't the big banana for most of his titles - a strange thing for a GOAT. His gap beteen title 1 and 2 was very long, and some of those teams were real good, where was the GOAT then? If Nixon was his PG and Magic ended up elsewhere - then what? Kiss all but 1 or maybe 2 titles goodbye, and he might be thinking about retiring around 1985. I don't get how little people think about the influx of Magic changing things for KAJ, then throw in a few more of those 1980-1987 Lakers and like I said, they'd win titles with Paul Mokeski at C.

I wouldn't give my year by year snippets the level of "analysis" BTW, more like snippets to illustrate what was happening year to year.



I call 'em like I see them, you do too.



I believe I added that if KAJ years were adjusted for era, that Jordan's best 8 years would be better than all of Jabbars years. There is GREAT and great, and Jabbar had IMO a lot more great seasons than GREST seasons compared to Jordan, that's a rather key point.



Each great season is not equal to all other great seasons, and a great season stands below a GREAT season. Jordan was THE man in all six of his titles, Jabbar was the the man in what 2 of them and tied for another and it took him many more years to get his.

Jordan never lost a Finals when his team won over 55 games in a season, KAJ did that 7 times, I just looked it up, that really is another major kick at KAJ. Losing in '84 to the Celts, well, that's a murderous match, but losing to Houston in '81 WTH? Hakeem in and Sampson in '86? Some of those Bucks teams got smoked too.



I have an all time team (for the purposed of playing together, not a bunch of scorers that need 3 balls on the court) and a peak team. I don't have Jabbar on either one, although he would be on the 2nd team for both most likely. That means given his match-up issues and my issue with his peak in the weak league, that he doesn't go w/o criticism for my purposes personally - but why can't I hold that view on one hand and agree that he's in terms of historical value the #1 Center at the same time? *

In 1985 I'm sure I had Russell then KAJ as my 1/2.

I started to think after 1986 I would have to make room for Hakeem some day, by the end of 1995, it was clearly a yes. Then Shaq. Then more recently I started to rethink Russell. I'd get cuffed by some of my relatives if they read what I've written about him in PSD the last 3 years or so.

Still longevity has value. KAJ's strong points are strong. If you want an 18 year Center and not a 14 year one, who else do you take? He has my respect, he killed Parish, he made Cowens play 3x his normal speed, and he burned out in a scant few years battling KAJ. KAJ is a beast.

Who else gets 3rd BTW? Love Magic and Bird, but both careers are short. Sorry but Kobe is well overrated since he's playing in a mega market now, he's not top 5, not now, not ever. Karl Malone? No. TD? Maybe as high as 6th, not 3rd. James? Might be, can't tell yet. Wilt? too flawed.

Nope. Jordan is the GOAT. KAJ is #2 but he's well down from Jordan IMO. Really the whole top 10 after these two is tough to call, but none of those guys can take 1 or 2 away, not until James finishes his incursion will we find out if he can. Magic gets 3rd, and he like Jordan is on my team, but historically he can't pass KAJ. 4th and below, none of those guys any order can touch the top 2.




* My current top 12 man team (5 year peak) against whomever else (you pick):

5: Hakeem, Shaq
4/3/5: TD, KG, McHale
3: Bird, James
2: Jordan, Allen
2/1: Glove
1: Magic, Kidd

My 5 bigs make up half (or better) of the best low post players ever, and 4 of them have outside games too. All of them are great at D in their prime. McHale doesn't pass (oh well). Shaq is there to deal with the really big Centers and body up KAJ if that's who we face.

Bird and James may end up playing offensively as 1/2/4's as well to get them more looks. Bird not great on ball defender, but he can pass a bit. Him and James may not co-exist well, that's my major concern on that front.

Jordan is I hope the only big scorer, he's got killer D too, and that will to win. Plus if I have him, I don't have to deal with stopping him. Allen is the 3 point dagger that was able to play good D for about 3 years with the C's - ahead of most of the other 2's. Kobe is selfish and doesn't tolerate not being the guy, so he can't play for me, plus he's a borderline low efficiency shooter. Wade can be great, but I think he needs the ball a bit too much, I need some of my guys happy to play 18 a night and not complain.

Glove is in there to stop the hot hand on the other team

Kidd has flaws, but if Magic is getting out quicked, Kidd ought to quiet them down, and he had a period when his D was still good and he was a 3 pt killer too. Plus with Bird, Magic, KG, James, and TD roaming around, the PG here doesn't have to be ball dominant, in fact he can't be.

I wanted guys that could sit on the bench, play D, and pass, and play smart, share, and live with one ball. I wanted guys that burn to win but don't have to get 28 a night to be happy.

Hey bagwell (ya gonna let me call you "bags"? hehe)
This is a THUNDERBOLT post.

This is what I was asking for and few could come close to letting "me" "get what I asked for".

Regardless of their positions, regardless of any big weakness you might (notice that word) have; every honest poster around this thread should note your DEDICATION TO DETAIL AND FAIRNESS.

Respect where due: you are working hard for us here.

During this particular phase of this thread, You (and High Horse) are doing this thread (and PSD-NBA) proud.

Pablonovi
09-23-2013, 12:35 PM
Hey High Horse,
In your last 3 here you've said:
#84: "Wilt was far from awful overall. He had KAJ terrified to enter his domain, when winning time came, Wilt was locking him up and stuffing his hooks every which way. Saying Wilt was awful overall is akin to saying KG was awful during many of his series. Dont undersell his defense, it was game changing. His scoring wasn't great but he was at the stage in his career where he was a defense first player. "

#85: Wilt was given an entirely different responsibility than any other superstar in history, as the main attraction in a infant league, he was tasked with the burden of popularizing a sport that that was still developing during a time when racism was rampant. Where guys like Russ loathed interacting with fans, Wilt was there to sign autographs.

If Wilt comes along in the 70's or later, and someone else had done the landscaping, he would have flourished with the advancements in the game (athletically and coaching wise), as it were he was developing into a complete player by the mid 60's. He wouldn't be told by the team owner to go out and try and score as much as possible to sell tickets if the NBA were a full fledged league, he would abide to whatever the coaches asked because its what he did on numerous occasions. Even when it came at the expense of the team (brush up on Breda Kolf), Wilt was even part of the first team that instituted the morning shoot around, no easy feat back when players were paid pittance.

Im not saying hes perfect, but people think hes a rigid, my way or the highway, coach killing cancer, but he doesn't get enough credit for keeping this game afloat. Hes egotistical but he had a big heart and he was a heady player who sacrificed his game many times. It took longer than it should have, but again, thats due to the era he played in more than anything.


In todays game, no matter how highly Wilt thought of himself, he would not be out on the court the full 48, thats just 1 example of how modern philosophies could have extended Wilt's career. "

#88: "Yeah I wouldn't go as far as saying Wilt matched him (maybe the year prior when the Milwaukee crowd gave him a standing ovation) but he definitely intimidated him. Kareems own coach would attest to it.

The raw scoring that series was high but he had nights where he shot like 11-33 or something. After the first 2 games, Kareem shot 41%, he relied on nothing but hooks and jumpers after that.

Still, I wouldn't depict Kareem as some sort of loser because of this series, he almost single handedly defeated the team Phil Jackson pegged as the only team capable of giving his Bulls a run for their money. Oscar was hurting bad that series and the Milwaukee media depicted game 2 as a gifted win for the Lakers.

I just took offense to saying Wilt sucked, his offense might have sucked, he was getting old and dealing with a few dings himself but he was focused on 1 job, containing Kareem, and he did a better job of that than anyone not named Thurmond. "
--------------
What I say about what you've just said about Wilt:
If there's one NBA Great that has been terribly mis-interpretted it's WILT.

He could NOT have been a selfish/self-centered player and personally, single-handedly racially INTEGRATED THE ENTIRE CITY AND METROPOLITCAN AREA OF KANSAS CITY (as a collegian, what balls, people!) AND THEN THE ENTIRE U.S. SOUTH (and had NO small influence on the still very-racist, though a little more discrete about it, on the rest of the US and world).

And what about his justified reknown as a master Peace-Keeper (as you so righteously point out in that KEY PERIOD of the NBA's formative years). Imagine, people that he didn't stop all those fights and with such dignity. The NBA might never have taken off; b-ball pro-leagues had failed one after the other after the other before then. What if he been less than zero and been the average NBA player in terms of fighting? People would have had their careers ended thru hospitalization or morgue. And the mostly white (and black) fans? The NBA would have died in its tracks if Wilt, that giant of a man, had been an average/bad example.

He was an overwhelming un-selfish man; marvelously gracious.

And UNCOACHABILITY????
You absolutely nailed this, High Horse.
Wilt was CONSTANTLY ADAPTING! He went from 38+ a game as a rookie to 50.4 a game as a sophomore (2nd year) because HIS COACH asked him to; telling him, we have no chance to compete with the big boys unless we max out our max weapon and that's you're ability to score virtually at will.

High Horse,
KUDOS to you for these 3 posts.
YOU said what I so wanted to say; and you said it better.

P.S. THE biggest reason I lurked at PSD-NBA for two full years was because of posts like these and their authors' consistent hard work in producing such quality thought/posts like bagwell and High Horse.

Sincere apologies for other worthy posts and their authors not listed here.

Pablonovi
09-23-2013, 12:42 PM
People,
This is one awesome thread!
Not just for the contributions.
But for the team-work.
Instead of taking things too-personal, people are accepting each other's criticisms* and making further valuable contributions.

What a team!
What an honor to be a small part of such a team!

*Well, they are definitely NOT always accepting each other's criticisms (whatever was I thinking when I said that???); but, at least they are NOT negatively/defensively responding to the usual nasty degree and with the usual thread-killing frequency.

STL Pride
09-23-2013, 01:55 PM
I'll take Chamberlain first, over any other center to ever play the game.
Some of his numbers are unsurpassable yet, some say he played selfish, others say it was the era in which he played in. I believe he was just that much better than everybody else. You put him on any team in today's game, he'd still be the best center in the game, without question. Would he average 50ppg/25rpg, certainly not. Obviously as the sport evolves, so do the players, however, being one of the best in the game is a mark of an exceptional player, regardless of competition.
Now some point to his stats as a result of his selfishness.. really? He was the best player in his sport, he was doing exactly what an MJ, Kobe Bryant, would do. Taking charge. And it was because he had to, not because he was worried about numbers. When he was moved to the 76ers, he started distributing the ball more often and even led the entire league in total assists one season. He did what he had to do and each team he joined got significantly better.
People will also try to say he didn't win enough, as if 2 titles in 6 appearances weren't impressive. Bill Russell, his arch rival may have won more rings however, Wilt did win more than most players in any other era.
He was simply one of a kind. And has to be the most complete center of all time, hands down.
Offensively, dominant. Defensively, dominant. Great ball handler. Great passes. Quickest athlete over 7'0 all time. As well as most athletic..
He opened the gates for the Olajuwan's, O'Neal's, Duncan's, Howard's, etc. He IS Goat and IMO, the greatest center of all time.

bagwell368
09-23-2013, 02:40 PM
Let's reign in the Wilt worship a bit.

Let's look at Boston from 1964-1969: Most people will talk about busing battles (most to come after this period), and police harassing black players in white upscale areas. Let's also talk about Ed Brooke black Republican Senator from Massachusetts, and Bill Russell. I was brought up to fear, hate, and loathe Wilt because he was the major threat to "our" guy. Not "that" guy. OUR guy. There was no other black Boston athlete before this this time that ever had the effect on Boston or its fans in any sport ( I can't of one since that has, (perhaps Tiant and Ortiz, not Pierce or Parish...). Bill than became the first black coach in North American professional sports. In truth he handled the D and Havlicek got the offense.

So I'm afraid the view of Wilt a if not the leading figure in integration ignores Russell to everyone's loss, never mind Dr. King and Muhammad Ali who IMO did much more than the two basketball figures in this work.

As far as playing itself. I'd like to put up Russell's Game 7's against Wilt's - I don't have the list at hand, but Bill wipes the floor with Wilt. I mean head to head and point to point - not just in their head to head match-ups but any game 7. Russell was a beast, and Wilt suffered some shrinkage factor based on my memory of his games in those circumstances. I'll try to find them later on if not posted.

Pablonovi
09-23-2013, 03:07 PM
Let's reign in the Wilt worship a bit.

Let's look at Boston from 1964-1969: Most people will talk about busing battles (most to come after this period), and police harassing black players in white upscale areas. Let's also talk about Ed Brooke black Republican Senator from Massachusetts, and Bill Russell. I was brought up to fear, hate, and loathe Wilt because he was the major threat to "our" guy. Not "that" guy. OUR guy. There was no other black Boston athlete before this this time that ever had the effect on Boston or its fans in any sport ( I can't of one since that has, (perhaps Tiant and Ortiz, not Pierce or Parish...). Bill than became the first black coach in North American professional sports. In truth he handled the D and Havlicek got the offense.

So I'm afraid the view of Wilt a if not the leading figure in integration ignores Russell to everyone's loss, never mind Dr. King and Muhammad Ali who IMO did much more than the two basketball figures in this work.

As far as playing itself. I'd like to put up Russell's Game 7's against Wilt's - I don't have the list at hand, but Bill wipes the floor with Wilt. I mean head to head and point to point - not just in their head to head match-ups but any game 7. Russell was a beast, and Wilt suffered some shrinkage factor based on my memory of his games in those circumstances. I'll try to find them later on if not posted.

Hey bagwell,
If we move the topic wider than basketball, then Ali would be my 1a or 1b to Wilt.

Wilt entered restaurants and sat in the "no-negroes allowed" seats. People got lynched/killed for much less than that. He HAD to know that his physical strength was no match for bullets, drawn and cocked guns, whips, chains, nooses, torture all at the hands of rabid haters; the bigger the "threat" to their "way" the more brutally they were treated.

And it was NOT just 1 restaurant one time. It was an endless string (of courageous death-risking). And not just in one entire city, in an entire region; and, by effect, thru his example, an entire country and beyond.

King was not an athlete. If we move the topic wider than sports, then King would be my 1a or 1b to Malcolm X. Malcolm X went much further, got much closer to the truth than MLK ever did. And the closer he got, the closer he knew got the hangman. When he got very close, and openly called for multi-racial unity AND world-wide AGAINST all oppression, they took him out. He was far too great a speaker/organizer; far too dangerous.

MLK, much more slowly found his way to that same general place. In his last days he came out SOLIDLY, whole-heartedly AGAINST THE WAR IN VIETNAM. For that specifically, he too was gunned down.

And let's NOT FORGET Rosa Parks who so bravely "sat down" where it wasn't allowed, FIRST! And inspired an entire generation (of more than one race)!

Pablonovi
09-23-2013, 03:13 PM
Hey bagwell,
You just said, "As far as playing itself. I'd like to put up Russell's Game 7's against Wilt's - I don't have the list at hand, but Bill wipes the floor with Wilt. I mean head to head and point to point - not just in their head to head match-ups but any game 7. Russell was a beast, and Wilt suffered some shrinkage factor based on my memory of his games in those circumstances. I'll try to find them later on if not posted."

We, many of us, could chew on this forever.

One way I can make my point about this strictly-basketball question:
Take Red OFF the C's bench and put Red ON Wilt's Team's bench; the probable results:

the EXACT OPPOSITE RESULTS: Wilt's teams beat Russell's teams virtually every single time. Most of those were quite close games; Red was worth at least 1-3 points per game for "his" team.

Further, many of those series would not even have gotten to those game 7's; Wilt's Red-Led Teams would have closed them out sooner (lots of those non game 7's were close too).

bagwell368
09-23-2013, 03:35 PM
One way I can make my point about this strictly-basketball question:
Take Red OFF the C's bench and put Red ON Wilt's Team's bench; the probable results:

the EXACT OPPOSITE RESULTS: Wilt's teams beat Russell's teams virtually every single time. Most of those were quite close games; Red was worth at least 1-3 points per game for "his" team.

Did you change Wilt's birth year? Because if you don't, The Celts miss a couple right there.

The other much more difficult issue to figure is how do you work out how the Celts do with Wilt and visa versa? After Wilt wins 5 in a row, how do you know he doesn't get bored and quit?

I always get the nagging feeling that 11 in 13 would become 8 or 9 in 13.

Back to Wilt's color barrier breaking, can you point me to documentation? I ask because many of the myths around Wilt's physical prowess seem to be pumped up well beyond the truth. Also the number of evenings with young ladies seems pegged way high vs reality.

##############################

I found a copy of the book on line and read about 60 pages of it. Besides the great difficulty a black man of his time had with so many awful things, I saw little evidence that he was active in civil rights/disobedience. Page 45 of his book is the closest he came to being active in these issues through about 1964. On page 54 in fact Bill Russell seemed to take a more aggressive stance than anything Wilt did.

I couldn't find any references of note on the web. Here is the excerpt from the book:

http://books.google.com/books?id=-Y7inUoP0NkC&pg=PA45&lpg=PA45&dq=wilt+%22lunch+counters%22&source=bl&ots=Elw9VvET5Z&sig=6vBf17Om5hzjSq4AwfOO54F-3aw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=a_FAUpfBNpDA4AOsw4HoBw&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=wilt%20%22lunch%20counters%22&f=false