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View Full Version : Payton Says there are only three true point guards in the NBA



JasonJohnHorn
09-18-2013, 04:14 PM
http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/09/17/how-many-real-point-guards-are-there-in-the-nba-gary-payton-says-three/


Payton says there are only three true point guards in the NBA: CP3, Rondo and Tony Parker.


What are your thoughts? I'd throw in Jose Calderon myself.... and likely D-Will, but I agree with the sentiment. That's not to knock guys like Rose and Westbrook, they are great at what they do and help their teams, but they are not point guards, they are combo guards. Positions have changed over the years and traditional roles aren't always embraced. Teams that don't use traditional models often succeed (Chicago, the Kobe-era Lakers, and MIA are great examples).

What are your thoughts? Who are the true, or rather 'traditional' point guards and does a team need one to win?

NYKnickFanatic
09-18-2013, 04:20 PM
When I read the title, those same exact PGs came to mind.

FlashBolt
09-18-2013, 04:24 PM
No Steve Nash? I know he's not in his prime but this guy is probably the best example of a pass first.

J4KOP99
09-18-2013, 04:27 PM
Tp? Definitely more score first than pass first

2-ONE-5
09-18-2013, 04:30 PM
switch Parker with Nash and hes right, maybe D-Will too

D-Leethal
09-18-2013, 04:31 PM
If "true" means "pure pass first" than TP belongs nowhere near the list. Steve Nash might not be elite anymore, but he's still as pure as they come along with Rondo. Calderon fits the bill as well, but GP was probably talking about the elite level guys.

Oefarmy2005
09-18-2013, 04:33 PM
Yeah, I would go CP3, Rondo and Rubio. TP is score first as others have mentioned.

colinskik
09-18-2013, 04:34 PM
TP is great but I would classify him as a scoring PG and thus not a "true" point guard.

DWill is on the fence. He was with Utah, hasn't been with Brooklyn, but might regain that style of play with this new roster.

alexander_37
09-18-2013, 04:58 PM
Nash and Rubio come to mind.....

JLynn943
09-18-2013, 05:44 PM
Typical Payton. I don't know why anyone would ever pay him to talk after listening to him.

jstone0716
09-18-2013, 05:51 PM
D-Will and CP3 are the best all around PG's in my opinion. But I would definitely throw Nash, Parker, Rubio, Calderon and Rondo hesitantly because I think he's the complete opposite of what a PG should be ( a selfless team player ) instead he's a selfish stat stuffer...

Joshtd1
09-18-2013, 05:52 PM
Rubiooooooooo

DreamShaker
09-18-2013, 06:01 PM
Parker is not pass first, but he does run his team and is a playmaker. I get where he's coming from.

DreamShaker
09-18-2013, 06:02 PM
Rubiooooooooo

Dude has uncanny court vision. I saw him play in person, when I hadn't seen much of him, and was blown away.

abe_froman
09-18-2013, 06:03 PM
so is he saying he wasnt a true pg? i mean he use to shoot as much as rose and westbrook do

Hawkeye15
09-18-2013, 06:05 PM
Dude has uncanny court vision. I saw him play in person, when I hadn't seen much of him, and was blown away.

where did you see him play? I was at the Rockets game 2 years ago when the Wolves won, and Rubio had an offensive rebound on the sideline, and while he was dribbling back out, he saw Love in the television on the other side of the stadium roof television, and threw a no look behind the back pass on the money for a layup. Never seen that **** in my life. I am telling you, his court vision is second to only Magic from what I have seen.

Now just learn to make a layup...

ThuglifeJ
09-18-2013, 06:06 PM
Parker is a true point guard.. haters.

Hawkeye15
09-18-2013, 06:06 PM
so is he saying he wasnt a true pg? i mean he use to shoot as much as rose and westbrook do

not as much, but that is exactly what I was thinking when I saw the thread title haha.

PhillySportFan
09-18-2013, 06:06 PM
CP3 and Rondo I can understand but Tony Parker, really? There is no such thing a pure PG anymore, their all the same. No reason to determine who are "true pg's" and who aren't.

Hawkeye15
09-18-2013, 06:08 PM
Parker is a true point guard.. haters.

not by definition when you are constantly leading your team in attempts per game from the PG position.

I hate the term "true PG" honestly. You are either productive, or not. Plenty of ways to do that, but to me, "true" seems like a term to mask the fact that said PG is a **** scorer and is only on the floor because he can control the ball, run an offense, and defend.

Bruno
09-18-2013, 06:11 PM
well, chris paul and rondo are the best facilitators in the game, and they both play defense at an elite level. i think parker has become a good enough facilitator to be in the description- although sure he started out as score first. i also think he left off steve nash because of his age and lack of defense, but obviously he's a more traditional PG. I think Williams is a fine enough distributor to fit the description too. but point being- the rule changes of the past decade have created a league where ball dominant PGs can lead a team to get it done.

this is more a commentary on the rule changes of the NBA since 2000 than it is an criticism of its players. or maybe there's another reason why every retired great speaks of the greatness of rondo while the fans bash him at every opportunity. if we were still playing under 90's rules, Rondo would be considered a better player than he is today because Rose, Westbrook, Irving and even Williams wouldn't be able to put the ball on the floor and dominant the offense nearly as easily. maybe not by a lot but relative to the dominance of his competition he'd seem more valuable.

ChiSox219
09-18-2013, 06:14 PM
where did you see him play? I was at the Rockets game 2 years ago when the Wolves won, and Rubio had an offensive rebound on the sideline, and while he was dribbling back out, he saw Love in the television on the other side of the stadium roof television, and threw a no look behind the back pass on the money for a layup. Never seen that **** in my life. I am telling you, his court vision is second to only Magic from what I have seen.


Damn that's awesome.

ChiSox219
09-18-2013, 06:19 PM
Derrick Rose's true point/facilatating skills are so underrated. Rose is a pass first PG that is asked/forced to be more of a scorer than he normally would be because he's got no offense around him. Go back and check him out his rookie year, college, or high school he was totally unselfish.

nico916
09-18-2013, 06:22 PM
greivis Vasquez comes to mind and rubio

John Walls Era
09-18-2013, 06:26 PM
where did you see him play? I was at the Rockets game 2 years ago when the Wolves won, and Rubio had an offensive rebound on the sideline, and while he was dribbling back out, he saw Love in the television on the other side of the stadium roof television, and threw a no look behind the back pass on the money for a layup. Never seen that **** in my life. I am telling you, his court vision is second to only Magic from what I have seen.

Now just learn to make a layup...

wow I guess they can just keep doing the full course behind the back passes to go 82-0 and win the ship.

Bruno
09-18-2013, 06:27 PM
Derrick Rose's true point/facilatating skills are so underrated. Rose is a pass first PG that is asked/forced to be more of a scorer than he normally would be because he's got no offense around him. Go back and check him out his rookie year, college, or high school he was totally unselfish.

i dont think he's selfish at all. he fills the role his team needs, a role that is more possible to fulfill efficiently by the rule changes made through the 2000's.

abe_froman
09-18-2013, 06:30 PM
not as much, but that is exactly what I was thinking when I saw the thread title haha.

gp was averaging 18-20 a game during his prime,which is what they are


but i def agree,i dont really get/like the whole "true" pg thing.

DreamShaker
09-18-2013, 06:35 PM
where did you see him play? I was at the Rockets game 2 years ago when the Wolves won, and Rubio had an offensive rebound on the sideline, and while he was dribbling back out, he saw Love in the television on the other side of the stadium roof television, and threw a no look behind the back pass on the money for a layup. Never seen that **** in my life. I am telling you, his court vision is second to only Magic from what I have seen.

Now just learn to make a layup...

Actually at the rookie-sophmore game at All-Star weekend in Houston this year. I know it was a glorified pick-up game, but he was pulling off some crazy stuff out there. All the other point guards were predictably sloppy, but he was actually trying to put on a show. Since then I have checked him out more, and am constantly impressed. I don't have league pass, so I don't get to see many T-Wolves games. Gotta go to YouTube.

DreamShaker
09-18-2013, 06:36 PM
gp was averaging 18-20 a game during his prime,which is what they are


but i def agree,i dont really get/like the whole "true" pg thing.

They are more like 25 a game, though, right? They do shoot a bit more. Especially Westbrook who is Iverson-like in his chucking.

b@llhog24
09-18-2013, 06:40 PM
It's not like he's a pure PG anyway.

Rndy
09-18-2013, 06:49 PM
I don't think anyone thinks Rose is selfish unless they don't watch a ton of basketball. Anyone that watched Team USA FIBA knows he let everyone else make plays while he just passed.

Chacarron
09-18-2013, 06:57 PM
CP3, Ricky Rubio, Nash, Rondo.

seikou8
09-18-2013, 07:11 PM
They are more like 25 a game, though, right? They do shoot a bit more. Especially Westbrook who is Iverson-like in his chucking.

nooo wrong http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/westbru01.html

more 19-20 and and rose is 18-19 a game

JasonJohnHorn
09-18-2013, 07:35 PM
I'm going to guess that Payton's exclussion of Nash has to do with his lack of defence and Rubio's has to do with his inability to shoot.... perhaps Payton expect a "true point guard" to pass first, but be able to create and shoot and also hold up his own on defense, in which case the exclusion of: Nash, Calderon and Rubio make sense. Though then Rondo wouldn't be included since he can't shoot... and D-Will should be included I think...

DreamShaker
09-18-2013, 07:51 PM
nooo wrong http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/westbru01.html

more 19-20 and and rose is 18-19 a game

What? I just read 23PPG the last two seasons. And Rose was 25PPG his MVP season, the last season he was healthy.

Hawkeye15
09-18-2013, 08:05 PM
wow I guess they can just keep doing the full course behind the back passes to go 82-0 and win the ship.

with Globetrotter music playing at all times in the Target Center!

Catoblepas
09-18-2013, 08:16 PM
I agree with payton, but would throw Chauncy Billups in it even though he isn't what he was.
I don't mean to go off topic, because most of us already know what a true PG is.

Assists vs Turn overs
Controlling the Game's Tempo
Court vision
Ability to hit the open shot

MrfadeawayJB
09-18-2013, 09:11 PM
:facepalm:

MrfadeawayJB
09-18-2013, 09:15 PM
Homer pick: Mike Conley is somewhat of a true pg

Kushed
09-18-2013, 10:06 PM
Shocked Rubio isn't one of the three.. I mean I think he's talking out of his *** anyway but Rubio is about as true as they come. Unreal court vision, would rather dish out 100 assists than score 100 points. Extremely underrated defender.

JerseyPalahniuk
09-18-2013, 10:45 PM
That's funny. He recently said this in an interview:


Q: There are a lot of really good point guards in today's NBA. Who do you really like?

A: "I've always liked Deron Williams because has the same mentality as me. They don't play defense like we did. But [Williams] does do it on both ends of the floor and wants to. I like him a lot. Another guy I like a lot and a lot of people think I dislike him is [Rajon] Rondo. He can't score like I did, but he does everything else like I did."

Either GP doesn't believe he's a true point guard himself or we should give little stock into these random quotes from former players that change almost monthly. I'd go with the latter.

seikou8
09-18-2013, 11:09 PM
What? I just read 23PPG the last two seasons. And Rose was 25PPG his MVP season, the last season he was healthy.

mb i thought you meant shot attempts no biggy:D

Iggz53
09-18-2013, 11:35 PM
Everything Payton says and has probably ever said in his entire life is idiotic nonsense. He's just plain stupid, so of course stupid people will stupid things.

TheNumber37
09-18-2013, 11:46 PM
DWill lacks leadership IMO to be in the ultimate true PG class.

JerseyPalahniuk
09-19-2013, 12:02 AM
Everything Payton says and has probably ever said in his entire life is idiotic nonsense. He's just plain stupid, so of course stupid people will stupid things.

Damn man tell us how you really feel

chitownredbulls
09-19-2013, 12:05 AM
Deron Williams sucks....really...watch him play...he's not that good at all

NetsPaint
09-19-2013, 01:53 AM
Prigioni is another.

FlashBolt
09-19-2013, 02:44 AM
Deron Williams sucks....really...watch him play...he's not that good at all

He was actually better than CP3 in a season or two, give or take. He had a bad year overall. Preferably, pre all star he was horrible. After that, I think him and Steph Curry were the two best PG's, excluding Tony Parker and CP3 of course. I expect him to be a better player this upcoming season. Look for him to become more efficient and pass more.

RiceOnTheRun
09-19-2013, 03:28 AM
TP definitely is more of a score-first type guy, but he's also the main playmaker and facilitator. There's definitely a clear difference between him and say, a guy like Westbrook. Not that Westbrook is a bad PG by any means, but TP definitely has the reins on the Spurs' offensive flow and controls it whereas Westbrook is more of a "main ball handler" that makes decisions.

Not sure if that really makes sense but TP just seems to have so much more control over his team's flow.

Hellcrooner
09-19-2013, 05:46 AM
If he means traditional then the three should be Nash, Rubio and Calderon.

If he means BEST then it should be Paul, Parker and Curry ( until rose and rondo prove they can play again).
.

IndyRealist
09-19-2013, 11:59 AM
Nash, Paul, Rondo, Rubio, Calderon out of the starting PGs. Everyone else is a short SG.

C_Mund
09-19-2013, 12:12 PM
Dragic? Vasquez?
I haven't watched enough of these two guys to say with certainty, but aren't they both pretty good all-round pg's?

Hawkeye15
09-19-2013, 12:43 PM
Dragic? Vasquez?
I haven't watched enough of these two guys to say with certainty, but aren't they both pretty good all-round pg's?

Dragic was more score first for sure when in Houston. Didn't watch him in Phoenix much.

Chronz
09-19-2013, 12:48 PM
Define true PG to me plz

ichitownclowni
09-19-2013, 12:55 PM
Yeah, I would go CP3, Rondo and Rubio. TP is score first as others have mentioned.

Those are who I thought of

Chronz
09-19-2013, 01:04 PM
Is Jamaal Tinsley a true PG? What about Shaun Livingston?

chrislu31
09-19-2013, 01:06 PM
switch Parker with Nash and hes right, maybe D-Will too

Exactly what I thought

ewing
09-19-2013, 02:09 PM
I don't think Smush Parker is a true point guard. I don't care what GP has to say.

ewing
09-19-2013, 02:11 PM
Is Jamaal Tinsley a true PG? What about Shaun Livingston?

Tinsley is 57 so i will say no. As for Livingston I will have to check out some of his HS tapes and then i'll let you know

Pablonovi
09-19-2013, 02:25 PM
Typical Payton. I don't know why anyone would ever pay him to talk after listening to him.

Hey JLynn943,
The first two in-depth Payton interviews (about other NBA players) I ever saw were the last two I'll watch. I knew he was a tough competitor but he didn't even try to hide his arrogance. Not pretty. Boy, a lot of these ex-players played WAY better than they are judges of talent.

ManRam
09-19-2013, 02:26 PM
This "true PG" stuff is nonsense.

Who cares? You don't need a "true" PG to be successful, at all. It's like people use the fact that some PGs aren't "true" PGs as slander. That's dumb.

I'm not even sure what "true PG" means any more, either.

Pablonovi
09-19-2013, 02:28 PM
That's funny. He recently said this in an interview:



Either GP doesn't believe he's a true point guard himself or we should give little stock into these random quotes from former players that change almost monthly. I'd go with the latter.

Hey JerseyP,
Somehow I missed your comment earlier, too true what you say.
What's the agenda behind this consistency, consistently inconsistent bad "sound bites"?

smith&wesson
09-19-2013, 02:36 PM
This "true PG" stuff is nonsense.

Who cares? You don't need a "true" PG to be successful, at all. It's like people use the fact that some PGs aren't "true" PGs as slander. That's dumb.

I'm not even sure what "true PG" means any more, either.

+1

not like chalmers is a true pg and last time i checked the heat are back to back champs.

also I disagree with gp. there are lots of true pg's.. rondo,nash,rubio,calderon,paul,d.will, dragic, parker,

the terms "true pg" is over rated anyways. Some of the best pg's in the game arent true pg's, but I would love any of them on my team westbrook, rose, irving etc.

IKnowHoops
09-19-2013, 02:44 PM
Typical Payton. I don't know why anyone would ever pay him to talk after listening to him.

Yeah, especially since his stats resembled Rose and Westbrook anyway. I remember Gary Payton and Stephon Marbury were the only two pgs in the league putting up 20-8 for a while. I still like Ivo's 30-7 better.

BoSelecta!!!
09-19-2013, 03:31 PM
Homer pick: Mike Conley is somewhat of a true pg

Not home pick: my boy Conley is on the right direction. You need to trust your PG. You can trust that boy Conley.

bagwell368
09-19-2013, 04:30 PM
This "true PG" stuff is nonsense.

Who cares? You don't need a "true" PG to be successful, at all. It's like people use the fact that some PGs aren't "true" PGs as slander. That's dumb.

I'm not even sure what "true PG" means any more, either.

Damn, that's most of my post.

In the old days you had guards. PG's that shoot well and pass well are much more dangerous than a PG (Rondo) that doesn't shoot well and has to pass to justify his place on the O. Rondo's peak was 2008-2010, ever since he's been outside of the top dozen PG's each year. God protect my franchise from being led by a talented but almost ridiculously flawed PG. Give me any of another 10-14 PG's, and MOST of them are not "pure" PG's.

It's nostalgic rubbish. Give me today's Jerry West and I'll worry about the label later.

KenGriffeyJr24
09-19-2013, 04:54 PM
Paul, Rondo, Rubio

ztilzer31
09-19-2013, 05:37 PM
True PG is just a different term for a conventional PG. You guys are blowing this WAYYY out of the water. Nash is a backup PG that is used mostly as a spot up shooter at this point of his career, so I don't know why he's even brought up.

If you don't thing Tony Parker is a conventional PG then you need to relearn the position.

FlashBolt
09-19-2013, 06:35 PM
True PG is just a different term for a conventional PG. You guys are blowing this WAYYY out of the water. Nash is a backup PG that is used mostly as a spot up shooter at this point of his career, so I don't know why he's even brought up.

If you don't thing Tony Parker is a conventional PG then you need to relearn the position.

Because he's still one of the best pass first PG's. CP3 and TP aren't more of a pass first PG than Rondo or Nash. Nash is old but I can't think of anyone who'd rather pass than take a shot. Yes, they would not pass an open shot but they look to pass before they shoot. Rose, CP3, Parker, and Westbrook would all look for their own shot and then pass it as it goes. Nash will actually LOOK for you before making a move.

Bishnoff
09-19-2013, 06:50 PM
No Steve Nash? I know he's not in his prime but this guy is probably the best example of a pass first.

I agree. I know I'm biased, but Nash would be my first thought.

IndyRealist
09-19-2013, 09:45 PM
True PG is just a different term for a conventional PG. You guys are blowing this WAYYY out of the water. Nash is a backup PG that is used mostly as a spot up shooter at this point of his career, so I don't know why he's even brought up.

If you don't thing Tony Parker is a conventional PG then you need to relearn the position.

He had ONE bad year in which he was injured, and he was still better than all but a handful of guys at the position.

CityofChaos
09-20-2013, 12:24 AM
How is Rubio not on his list? I mean it seems like he's implying that a true pg is a pass first pg

bearadonisdna
09-20-2013, 12:55 AM
Nice to see Payton properly rebutted here.

Raps08-09 Champ
09-20-2013, 01:02 AM
Maybe in terms of stars. Though Parker is more of a scorer than a true PG. But there are a handful of 'true PGs' in the league.

Nash, Rubio, Calderon, etc are true PG's that he didn't list.

FlashBolt
09-20-2013, 01:10 AM
Gary Payton seems to have forgotten the meaning of a true point guard. Considering he was never one himself, it's understandable. I'd much rather have CP3 than a true point guard. Someone who can pass but can score on anyone. Nothing more deadly of a PG.

ewmania
09-20-2013, 02:30 AM
true point doesn't means just pass first

its alot to do with knowing how to work with the flow of the game. nash put up great numbers when he pushes the ball but you throw him in a match up with a smart coach and smart players and his faults will show,

don't get me wrong nash is a great PG, but rondo , cp3 and TP can run the point with perfection no matter what type of players surrounds them

ddt
09-20-2013, 06:39 AM
No Steve Nash? I know he's not in his prime but this guy is probably the best example of a pass first.


Yes. You probably forgot about Steve Nash.




dailydreamteam.com - "Taking your daily fantasy basketball skills to the next level."

Heediot
09-20-2013, 09:18 AM
How does Gary define true PG? This leaves thing very vague.

FlashBolt
09-20-2013, 10:20 AM
true point doesn't means just pass first

its alot to do with knowing how to work with the flow of the game. nash put up great numbers when he pushes the ball but you throw him in a match up with a smart coach and smart players and his faults will show,

don't get me wrong nash is a great PG, but rondo , cp3 and TP can run the point with perfection no matter what type of players surrounds them

When did Nash struggle? Because LAL forced him to play a style in which no one was comfortable playing? Nash was also injured and probably will retire very soon. And what exactly do you mean by flow of the game? That's for every damn player in every position. I'm guessing you think last year Nash was the exact same Nash for 10 years. D'Antoni thought Nash was still in his early 30's and decided to push the ball and play pick and roll with a center who didn't feel objected to doing so. Not to mention Kobe being the dominant ball handler on that team.

ztilzer31
09-20-2013, 06:48 PM
Steve Nash just had the worst season of his career, and is closing in on 40. If you're expecting a bounce back into his prime sure... That's not gonna happen though lol. Nash will never control the ball on the Lakers long enough to put up numbers he once had. No matter how healthy he is. Nash was a true PG....

A conventional PG has nothing to do with shooting first. It has to do with running the pick and roll, and running correct plays, while having the quickness necessary to break down defenses and find open shots. Tony Parker isn't even a "shoot first PG". He can score just like many great PG's... Just like Payton. However he can run the show well with any assortment of players with good basketball knowledge.

Russell Westbrook is straight sloppy at being a PG. It has nothing to do with the shots he takes. It has to do with the passes he doesn't make. He constantly drives the ball and tries to finish, instead of getting players involved while the play breaks down. You rarely see him make good passes off of picks, and plays hero ball.

Kashmir13579
09-20-2013, 06:53 PM
If "true" means "pure pass first" than TP belongs nowhere near the list. Steve Nash might not be elite anymore, but he's still as pure as they come along with Rondo. Calderon fits the bill as well, but GP was probably talking about the elite level guys.

Payton's list is garbage.

Hawkeye15
09-20-2013, 08:21 PM
true point doesn't means just pass first

its alot to do with knowing how to work with the flow of the game. nash put up great numbers when he pushes the ball but you throw him in a match up with a smart coach and smart players and his faults will show,

don't get me wrong nash is a great PG, but rondo , cp3 and TP can run the point with perfection no matter what type of players surrounds them

eww

ztilzer31
09-20-2013, 08:42 PM
I don't think Rondo should be on the list. That's for sure. Most overrated player in the game. Let's see what happens when he's looked at as someone that needs to score. I see a lot of wide open bricks for Rondo this season.

ewing
09-20-2013, 09:30 PM
I don't think Rondo should be on the list. That's for sure. Most overrated player in the game. Let's see what happens when he's looked at as someone that needs to score. I see a lot of wide open bricks for Rondo this season.

Yeah if he cant win with Brandon Bass fick him!

ewing
09-20-2013, 09:34 PM
eww

rondo can play. It would interesting to see him on a decent team that runs and has some finishers. The Celtics were never a team that really catered to his strengths. It would be interesting to see what happened now if he got the chance considering he has only played in the NBA on a more methodical slow paced team.

Pablonovi
09-20-2013, 11:35 PM
rondo can play. It would interesting to see him on a decent team that runs and has some finishers. The Celtics were never a team that really catered to his strengths. It would be interesting to see what happened now if he got the chance considering he has only played in the NBA on a more methodical slow paced team.

Hey ewing,
You could be right; but couldn't the same be said about most players, i.e., that they'd play (much) better if they had a team that was ideally suited to them? In most cases though, things work out at least a little less than ideally. The true test of any player is: How did they work with what they were given (teammates, coaches, opponents, rules, etc.). So far I'd say that Rondo has NOT done enough with what he was given to work with: those Celtics were plenty good enough.

I'd rather see players do well than do poorly, and that includes Rondo. I just think, for him, it's more mental (bad attitude vis-a-vis teamwork), than physical (he has enough). Maybe what he most needs is the right coach to "force" him to reign in his weaknesses and maximize his strengths/contributions. But then, I would have thought Doc "the disciplinarian" should have been able to; but he wasn't.

ewing
09-20-2013, 11:57 PM
Hey ewing,
You could be right; but couldn't the same be said about most players, i.e., that they'd play (much) better if they had a team that was ideally suited to them? In most cases though, things work out at least a little less than ideally. The true test of any player is: How did they work with what they were given (teammates, coaches, opponents, rules, etc.). So far I'd say that Rondo has NOT done enough with what he was given to work with: those Celtics were plenty good enough.

I'd rather see players do well than do poorly, and that includes Rondo. I just think, for him, it's more mental (bad attitude vis-a-vis teamwork), than physical (he has enough). Maybe what he most needs is the right coach to "force" him to reign in his weaknesses and maximize his strengths/contributions. But then, I would have thought Doc "the disciplinarian" should have been able to; but he wasn't.

Do you think Rondo has not been a successful PG? He has had some incredible performances. his weaknesses sometimes hurt him but i do not see many on the court mental weaknesses. This guy strength is that he is in tune. His weakness is that he cant ****in shoot. I think ideally he would have grown up with a fast paced team loaded with shooters and finishers. I do think it would be interesting to see him do it now that he has developed as a player in a iso heavy slow down system.

Pablonovi
09-21-2013, 01:33 AM
Do you think Rondo has not been a successful PG? He has had some incredible performances. his weaknesses sometimes hurt him but i do not see many on the court mental weaknesses. This guy strength is that he is in tune. His weakness is that he cant ****in shoot. I think ideally he would have grown up with a fast paced team loaded with shooters and finishers. I do think it would be interesting to see him do it now that he has developed as a player in a iso heavy slow down system.

Hey ewing,
No doubt Rondo has been one of the best pg's for a few years. But I'm a coach of various sports (though not NBA Basketball; or any pro sport. Instead: long-distance and track running, volleyball, bicycling). Many coaches of one sport CAN recognize certain things in other sports. When I watch Rondo play I think like I'm his coach and his weaknesses infuriate me because, for me, NOTHING is more important than teamwork; and, imho, his teamwork is his biggest weakness. If I were his coach, I'd sit him REGULARLY until he "got the hint"; and adjusted his game to precisely meet the needs of those Celtic teams he PG'd. That's the PGs job more than any other player, make the team run smooth.

I just feel like he could have done WAY better; and that, if he had, those C's would have done significantly better.

I would absolutely LOVE to see him get to the next level. After teamwork, my favorite thing is "overcoming weakness" OR, if you will, "changing for the better". He could go from very good (but with a "fatal flaw" or two; TO Great; I'd love to see it.

Goose17
09-21-2013, 02:17 PM
I respect Payton but there's no such thing as a "True PG". People are getting hung up on these archaic labels that are no longer relevant in the modern game.

I personally love pass first players. Nash is my favourite player of all time. But there's no such thing as a "True PG" imho, that sort of classification and labelling is something we need to get rid of.

Pablonovi
09-21-2013, 03:30 PM
I respect Payton but there's no such thing as a "True PG". People are getting hung up on these archaic labels that are no longer relevant in the modern game.

I personally love pass first players. Nash is my favourite player of all time. But there's no such thing as a "True PG" imho, that sort of classification and labelling is something we need to get rid of.

Hey Goose17,
Nicely put.

Bill Walton said about Magic, "He could get 40 points any time he wanted; but he's way more valuable passing the ball." (paraphrased; especially the second part).

Players that are "pass-first" muscle the word "team" into teamwork. The NBA is a 5-man-at-a-time TEAM sport; the best ball-movement makes for the best play, the happiest teammates; and usually translates well into wins.

Long live pass-first players; long live teamwork.

ztilzer31
09-22-2013, 10:57 AM
Yeah if he cant win with Brandon Bass fick him!

Not trying to be a dick. Just saying his "elite" status will be revoked after this year. Great players can still be great on bad teams. Even if they don't win a lot... We'll see, but I expect Rondo's numbers to drop drastically.

ewing
09-22-2013, 11:22 AM
Not trying to be a dick. Just saying his "elite" status will be revoked after this year. Great players can still be great on bad teams. Even if they don't win a lot... We'll see, but I expect Rondo's numbers to drop drastically.


Most player need teammates that complement them. He is super athletic PG with great court vision who cant shoot. He is on a team without shooters, finishers, and that will probably still play a slower pace. The Celtics will suck. Rondo will be forced to shoot more then he should and they will lose a lot. He will have his struggles no doubt, on the other hand if you put him on the Nuggets he would be better then ever.

ztilzer31
09-22-2013, 11:37 AM
Most player need teammates that complement them. He is super athletic PG with great court vision who cant shoot. He is on a team without shooters, finishers, and that will probably still play a slower pace. The Celtics will suck. Rondo will be forced to shoot more then he should and they will lose a lot. He will have his struggles no doubt, on the other hand if you put him on the Nuggets he would be better then ever.

He's a guard that can't shoot, and has questionable leadership abilities. He has to become at least an average shooter for me to consider him an elite PG. Payton wasn't a great shooter, but you definitely couldn't leave him wide open like you can Rondo.

ewing
09-22-2013, 01:03 PM
He's a guard that can't shoot, and has questionable leadership abilities. He has to become at least an average shooter for me to consider him an elite PG. Payton wasn't a great shooter, but you definitely couldn't leave him wide open like you can Rondo.


J Kidd couldn't shoot the ball the first half of his career. Mark Jackson was no jump shooter either. What about Andre Miller, Jamel Tinsely, Dennis Johnson? In most cases you need to be a better shooter then Rondo to have a serious impact as a guard. Rondo is an exception and not the first. Is he the best PG in the league? No but he has a very special skill set. as for his leadership i don't know how you can see the type of team success the celts had with him at the helm and the # huge game he had in big spots and say he has leadership problems. He is a head case and might be a pain in the ***, maybe even not the best teammate off the floor but he is leader on the court

ewing
09-22-2013, 01:04 PM
He's a guard that can't shoot, and has questionable leadership abilities. He has to become at least an average shooter for me to consider him an elite PG. Payton wasn't a great shooter, but you definitely couldn't leave him wide open like you can Rondo.


J Kidd couldn't shoot the ball the first half of his career. Mark Jackson was no jump shooter either. What about Andre Miller, Jamel Tinsely, Dennis Johnson? In most cases you need to be a better shooter then Rondo to have a serious impact as a guard. Rondo is an exception and not the first. Is he the best PG in the league? No but he has a very special skill set. as for his leadership i don't know how you can see the type of team success the celts had with him at the helm and the # huge game he had in big spots and say he has leadership problems. He is a head case and might be a pain in the ***, maybe even not the best teammate off the floor but he is leader on the court

D-Leethal
09-22-2013, 01:21 PM
J Kidd couldn't shoot the ball the first half of his career. Mark Jackson was no jump shooter either. What about Andre Miller, Jamel Tinsely, Dennis Johnson? In most cases you need to be a better shooter then Rondo to have a serious impact as a guard. Rondo is an exception and not the first. Is he the best PG in the league? No but he has a very special skill set. as for his leadership i don't know how you can see the type of team success the celts had with him at the helm and the # huge game he had in big spots and say he has leadership problems. He is a head case and might be a pain in the ***, maybe even not the best teammate off the floor but he is leader on the court

Cosigned. Rondo falls victim to the efficiency heads around here, but the guy is a ****ing monster PG. And if its Game 7 of the Finals, he is probably on a short list of 2-3 dudes I'm begging to have on my team. And regardless of his shooting efficiency, if the game is on the line and he's about to spot up, I'm ******** my pants. The guy is a gamer in every sense of the word. Might be my favorite player to watch in the game, runs point like he's at Rucker Park.

ewing
09-22-2013, 02:02 PM
Cosigned. Rondo falls victim to the efficiency heads around here, but the guy is a ****ing monster PG. And if its Game 7 of the Finals, he is probably on a short list of 2-3 dudes I'm begging to have on my team. And regardless of his shooting efficiency, if the game is on the line and he's about to spot up, I'm ******** my pants. The guy is a gamer in every sense of the word. Might be my favorite player to watch in the game, runs point like he's at Rucker Park.

if a young Kidd was on a slow half court iso heavy team people would absolutely dared him to shoot too

PowerHouse
09-22-2013, 02:21 PM
No Ricky Rubio? smh.

Buckwheat
09-22-2013, 02:43 PM
If there's only three, shouldn't the majority really be considered as the "true" PG's?

bagwell368
09-22-2013, 06:16 PM
Most player need teammates that complement them. He is super athletic PG with great court vision who cant shoot. He is on a team without shooters, finishers, and that will probably still play a slower pace. The Celtics will suck. Rondo will be forced to shoot more then he should and they will lose a lot. He will have his struggles no doubt, on the other hand if you put him on the Nuggets he would be better then ever.

I agree with the first par about Rondo on the Celts. He'll have to shoot more and get defender more since the options are weak compared to the 2007-2013 era. But Rondo has been in decline for 3 years his D went to hell last year, and he's got an operation to overcome. I can't assume he's be better than ever anywhere.

ewing
09-22-2013, 06:45 PM
I agree with the first par about Rondo on the Celts. He'll have to shoot more and get defender more since the options are weak compared to the 2007-2013 era. But Rondo has been in decline for 3 years his D went to hell last year, and he's got an operation to overcome. I can't assume he's be better than ever anywhere.

His health is certainly a question. His support caste also got nothing but slower and older in the past 3 years. 4 years ago it was a lot easier to just pick up your dribble and hand it to paul pierce

Pablonovi
09-23-2013, 12:05 PM
If there's only three, shouldn't the majority really be considered as the "true" PG's?

Hey Buckwheat,
Really!

Puts the exact opposite (and overwhelmingly correct) perspective on it. Everything changes constantly (usually almost-imperceptibly; then in relatively short periods, "boom! there it is" ... different).

Let me get my only real gripe out of the way first. Why? Because I love this GAME more than ever; and so want to concentrate on its positives, ending on the appropriate high note.

If I have one gripe; it's that I'd love 120 points per game a lot more than 100.

The game has evolved tremendously; each position has (had to) evolve within that. PG isn't and can't be an exception. Now we've got a thrilling game driven by relatively small guys who basically can't be consistently stopped even "by their own kind"; i.e. the other PGs. I love it.

Take a great modern PG against the Heat, Finals. He wrecks havoc with your defensive schemes. Finally, you have only one choice, you put LeBron on him. This works, his defense is that incredible. BUT, put him there for 7 games and the Heat might LOSE! Why because even while that PG is seeming to be relatively ineffective, he's wearing LeBron's butt out; and what the Heat gain EARLY on defense; they lose LATER on offense. The proof? Miami doesn't play LeBron consistently at defensive PG! It's too tough, even for him; they're too good. What a game!

I love the stretch 4s; I love the "no-fixed-position" offense. I love offenses with plans NOT for one option (often an iso); NOT for that one option plus one emergency plan; BUT 24-seconds of constantly shifting multiple-options. The game has gotten to a constant-intrigue level that is just a joy to watch.

I love the tremendous increase in attention being displayed in the ever-adapting defenses. Players can't kick back on defense or else, next thing you know, they're kicking back on the bench! Have defenses ever worked so hard for such a large part of the entire 24-second sequence? I highly doubt it.

I love the constant "punch - counter-punch" that they're giving us now.

I LOVE this GAME.

Goose17
09-23-2013, 12:38 PM
The term he was looking for, I believe, is "Traditional PG". But even then he's still missed a few guys on the list.

There's no such thing as a "True PG" (or "True" any position for that matter).

ddt
09-24-2013, 06:38 AM
Looks kind of obvious that The Glove chose players who (somewhat) has the similar playing style as his. I mean it is just his perception of things. From the 3 that he mentioned, Rondo & CP3 play better D than Parker and those three players are not the #1 scoring option.

Yes, you can say that CP3 is the main scorer for the Clips but if you ask him I think he'd rather have to otherwise. Rondo & Parker are those set-up point guards who love getting other involved and I think that's just what GP is trying to say here. Nothing to take away from the other athletic PGs like Rose & Westbrook but GP is an old-school type of guard so I get his statement on this one.

ztilzer31
09-25-2013, 12:00 AM
J Kidd couldn't shoot the ball the first half of his career. Mark Jackson was no jump shooter either. What about Andre Miller, Jamel Tinsely, Dennis Johnson? In most cases you need to be a better shooter then Rondo to have a serious impact as a guard. Rondo is an exception and not the first. Is he the best PG in the league? No but he has a very special skill set. as for his leadership i don't know how you can see the type of team success the celts had with him at the helm and the # huge game he had in big spots and say he has leadership problems. He is a head case and might be a pain in the ***, maybe even not the best teammate off the floor but he is leader on the court

Kidd was always a decent 3 point shooter, and relied on his free throws. Also never had anywhere near the talent of who Rondo had around him. It's a lot easier to get assists when you're surrounded by hall of famers for most of his career. He's an excellent passer, but I've always thought he gets way too much credit.

Kidd made a name for himself during his career bringing the best out of ever player on the court with him. Something that Rondo has to prove this year IMO.

FlashBolt
09-25-2013, 12:35 AM
Please do not mention leadership comparisons with Kidd and the likes of Rondo. Rondo is a great PG, in my top 5 when healthy - maybe top 3. But leadership wise, this guy is a total pain in the... Allen, Doc, KG, and Pierce all left him. It's pretty evident that they didn't think highly of Rondo and rightfully so.

ewing
09-25-2013, 06:35 AM
Kidd was always a decent 3 point shooter, and relied on his free throws. Also never had anywhere near the talent of who Rondo had around him. It's a lot easier to get assists when you're surrounded by hall of famers for most of his career. He's an excellent passer, but I've always thought he gets way too much credit.

Kidd made a name for himself during his career bringing the best out of ever player on the court with him. Something that Rondo has to prove this year IMO.

Well, thats not true

JordansBulls
10-10-2013, 12:40 AM
Pure PG as in who gets a lot of assists or what?

clehmun
10-10-2013, 05:59 AM
Stupid claim by Payton. Just because you're not an all-star doesn't mean you're not a pure PG. There are atleast a dozen "pure" PGs out there.

Heck Steve Blake is more of "PURE" PG than Payton.

ewing
10-10-2013, 08:37 AM
what about Juan Dixon?

Jesse2272
10-10-2013, 05:46 PM
I heard payton suffers extreme night terrors

recurring dream of Muntombo grabbing a bound, on the ground, holding a BB up high, I think he was drooling