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Mile High Champ
09-15-2013, 09:48 AM
Hey guys, It is that time of year again! Once again we kick of the PSD NBA Off-Season Player Rankings. This is the 6th year I have done this on PSD and it always brings some great discussion and debate. Please keep things civil and discuss who you feel is most fitting and deserving of being voted in each poll.

A lot has changed since last season. Lebron James and the Miami Heat are back to back NBA champions after an exciting 7 game series win over the Spurs. Let start the discussion since lots has changed since the start of last season. Please TRY AND VOTE FOR THE BEST PLAYER AND DON'T BE A HOMER. I will leave the poll open for one day and than we can carry on to the next best player at that position. I will add more players after each round. I have also included the results of those last 5 years so everyone can see how much things have changed...Enjoy.

Due to some people complaining that the rule was not written for the PG poll; in order to be eligible for these rankings, players must of played in 10 or more games last season. Thank you.


REMEMBER this is based on who is the best player, not the player who has the potential to be the best


2013 Off-Season PSD C Rankings

1) Tim Duncan
2) Dwight Howard
3) Marc Gasol
4) Joakim Noah
5) Roy Hibbert
6) Al Horford
7)
8)
9)
10)



2012 Off-Season PSD C Rankings

1) Dwight Howard
2) Andrew Bynum
3) Kevin Garnett
4) Marc Gasol
5) Tim Duncan
6) Tyson Chandler
7) Al Horford
8) Al Jefferson
9) Roy Hibbert
10) DeMarcus Cousins

2011 Off-Season C Rankings

1) Dwight Howard
2) Andrew Bynum
3) Tim Duncan
4) Andrew Bogut
5) Al Horford
6) Marc Gasol
7) Tyson Chandler
8) Joakim Noah
9) Nene
10) Al Jefferson

2010 Off-Season C Rankings

1) Dwight Howard
2) Yao Ming
3) Andrew Bogut
4) Brook Lopez
5) Andrew Bynum
6) Marc Gasol
7) Joakim Noah
8) Al Horford
9) Al Jefferson
10) Chris Kaman

2009 Off-Season C Rankings

1) Dwight Howard
2) Yao Ming
3) Al Jefferson
4) Shaquille O'Neal
5) Andrea Bargnani
6) Andris Biedrins
7) Emeka Okafor
8) Nene
9) Brook Lopez
10) Andrew Bynum

2008 Off-Season C Rankings:

1) Dwight Howard
2) Yao Ming
3) Al Jefferson
4) Andrew Bynum
5) Chris Kaman
6) Tyson Chandler
7) Shaquille O'Neal
8) Marcus Camby
9) Jermaine O'neal
10) Andrew Bogut

Mile High Champ
09-15-2013, 09:50 AM
Who you got at 7. Chris Bosh finally goes off the board right here I believe.

sunsfan88
09-15-2013, 10:54 AM
I like Brook Lopez here. Then Cousins, then Chandler and lastly Sanders.

THE MTL
09-15-2013, 11:22 AM
Im surprised brook had fallen this far. He def deserves #7 spot.

nycericanguy
09-15-2013, 11:43 AM
i'll go brook, he should have gone over Hortford... then Chandler.

tredigs
09-15-2013, 11:44 AM
The necessary from an NBA center is defense, not offense. Also, rebounding. There's not an extreme shortage of guys in the NBA who can score ~19ppg on a 56.7% TS. Brook Lopez in no way has earned this slot when there's elite rim protectors, decision makers (offensively it's massive to know your roll, and at the very least he has that going for him) + rebounders on the board. I'm looking at Tyson.

If Brook was a 25+ PPG guy on a 59%+ TS, OK, we're having a different discussion. But even in that scenario his small forward level rebounding ability and average defense do not do it for me. Not all positions are created equal, and Brook does not make his teams scary to play against in the paint. That's a huge detriment.

Gators123
09-15-2013, 11:55 AM
Chandler

nycericanguy
09-15-2013, 12:24 PM
Brook scored almost 20ppg in just 30mpg, hid defense improved, and he has one of the best outside shots for a C.

and this is coming from a Knicks fan that hates the Nets.

Maybe i just saw Brook playing at a higher level against NY, but I think he impacted the game more than Chandler. Nets defense as a whole wasn't too far behind NY's.

Chronz
09-15-2013, 12:33 PM
The necessary from an NBA center is defense, not offense. Also, rebounding. There's not an extreme shortage of guys in the NBA who can score ~19ppg on a 56.7% TS. Brook Lopez in no way has earned this slot when there's elite rim protectors, decision makers (offensively it's massive to know your roll, and at the very least he has that going for him) + rebounders on the board. I'm looking at Tyson.

If Brook was a 25+ PPG guy on a 59%+ TS, OK, we're having a different discussion. But even in that scenario his small forward level rebounding ability and average defense do not do it for me. Not all positions are created equal, and Brook does not make his teams scary to play against in the paint. That's a huge detriment.

Just how far would you take this adjusting for positions? You taking Larry Sanders before Brook as well? No love for his per minute/pace adjusted rates?

FlashBolt
09-15-2013, 12:37 PM
Chris Bosh should not be in the center category. It's unfair because that's not where he's best at. He should still be top 5, it's amazing how underrated Bosh is.

Chronz
09-15-2013, 12:40 PM
Going Bosh here, giving him brownie points for his ultimate emphasis on team oriented play. I do think hes slowing down abit but I do not doubt he could carry a bigger load, not the best #2 and playing out of position stunts his defensive impact, but hes a good team defender and has done this for a championship team, that counts for something.

Horford in the same role would thrive to a greater degree but I dont think hes better than Bosh overall.

tredigs
09-15-2013, 12:44 PM
Brook scored almost 20ppg in just 30mpg, hid defense improved, and he has one of the best outside shots for a C.

and this is coming from a Knicks fan that hates the Nets.

Maybe i just saw Brook playing at a higher level against NY, but I think he impacted the game more than Chandler. Nets defense as a whole wasn't too far behind NY's.
Which is insane, because outside of Brook and Tyson New Jersey has a massive advantage defensively between Wallace and Reggie Evans alone. The rebounding on that team alone would've been abysmal without those two.

His D was pretty good, but not on the paint protecting impact level of Tyson (even just being in the paint effects the way teams have to attack them, which is absolutely not the case against against New Jersey).

Again, from a center I want 3 things in this order:

1: Paint protection and the ability to ward an offense off from even attempting key shots.

2. Rebounding. If you're a big without the ability to own the boards, you're killing your team, especially in post-season matchups when the game gets rougher.

3. Paint ability + FT shooting. Score efficiently and have the ability to pass out of the post.

Tyson's got the foul shooting down fine, but his playmaking and ability to have the ball thrown to him in the post is where he struggles. Still, I want those 3 things in that order out of my center. His leadership ability and proven ability to be a key cog on a championship team only further his case. Whereas Brook has a single playoff appearance which saw them fall to a lower seeded/depleted Bulls squad. He showed well statistically, but again, that team was fortunate to have Reggie Evans to clean up the boards for them. Without him I really think they're losing in 5.

tredigs
09-15-2013, 12:47 PM
Just how far would you take this adjusting for positions? You taking Larry Sanders before Brook as well? No love for his per minute/pace adjusted rates?

Sanders, nah, not yet. He's not nearly as efficient as Tyson offensively and just isn't as refined or proven. But his defense is on another level and I would not be surprised if this same question is a 'yep' 12 months from now. We'll see how hard he works in the offseason.

mrblisterdundee
09-15-2013, 12:50 PM
Chris Bosh should not be in the center category. It's unfair because that's not where he's best at. He should still be top 5, it's amazing how underrated Bosh is.

It's unfortunate, but I think part of the reason he gets knocked is for playing with LeBron James and Dwyane Wade. Life's made easier on him because of that.

tredigs
09-15-2013, 12:52 PM
It's unfortunate, but I think part of the reason he gets knocked is for playing with LeBron James and Dwyane Wade. Life's made easier on him because of that.

Yeah, a goose egg in game 7 of the finals where they still killed it did a number on that perception. He's a fair choice here but that's not a guy I want as my center on your normal contender.

JasonJohnHorn
09-15-2013, 03:02 PM
I am amazed at how low Lopez is ranking. I was, in the past one of Lopez's harshest critics, but he had a great year last season. He was the highest scoring center per36 with great percentages across the board. His rebounding numbers were actually BETTER than Marc Gasol's and his blocks per game ranked among the best in the league. Only 3 centers averaged more blocks per game than Lopez(Dwight Duncan and Hibbert) and of those only 2 averaged more block per36, and one of those two one was only ahead by 0.1 blocks. And of those players, Lopez's blocks-to-fouls ratio is far better than each of them with the lone exception of Tim Duncan (who is clearly better than Lopez in that respect).


His offensive game is amazing. You'd be hard pressed to find a C you could say is a better scorer.


So I guess my question is: What does Lopez have to do to get respect? Considering he only got 30 minutes a game, his averages were extremely impressive. How he's struggling to get votes to finish as the 7th best C when he should be clearly top 5 and perhaps even top 3 is beyond me.

For me, defense and rebounding counts for a lot at the center position,but at the same time, there is something to be said for what Lopez does on offense, and his rebounding and defense are actually pretty good despite his past reputations.


Also, I think people who voted for Hibbert were really influenced by his playoff performance and forgot how poorly he played during the regular season. Not that a great playoff performance should be excluded from consideration, but neither should an extremely poor showing in the regular season.

Chronz
09-15-2013, 07:48 PM
Sanders, nah, not yet. He's not nearly as efficient as Tyson offensively and just isn't as refined or proven. But his defense is on another level and I would not be surprised if this same question is a 'yep' 12 months from now. We'll see how hard he works in the offseason.

I meant vs Brook

tredigs
09-15-2013, 08:37 PM
I meant vs Brook

That's what I was talking about. Just saying why Tyson is, and he isn't.

tredigs
09-15-2013, 08:46 PM
I am amazed at how low Lopez is ranking. I was, in the past one of Lopez's harshest critics, but he had a great year last season. He was the highest scoring center per36 with great percentages across the board. His rebounding numbers were actually BETTER than Marc Gasol's and his blocks per game ranked among the best in the league. Only 3 centers averaged more blocks per game than Lopez(Dwight Duncan and Hibbert) and of those only 2 averaged more block per36, and one of those two one was only ahead by 0.1 blocks. And of those players, Lopez's blocks-to-fouls ratio is far better than each of them with the lone exception of Tim Duncan (who is clearly better than Lopez in that respect).


His offensive game is amazing. You'd be hard pressed to find a C you could say is a better scorer.


So I guess my question is: What does Lopez have to do to get respect? Considering he only got 30 minutes a game, his averages were extremely impressive. How he's struggling to get votes to finish as the 7th best C when he should be clearly top 5 and perhaps even top 3 is beyond me.

For me, defense and rebounding counts for a lot at the center position,but at the same time, there is something to be said for what Lopez does on offense, and his rebounding and defense are actually pretty good despite his past reputations.


Also, I think people who voted for Hibbert were really influenced by his playoff performance and forgot how poorly he played during the regular season. Not that a great playoff performance should be excluded from consideration, but neither should an extremely poor showing in the regular season.

How is it disrespectful to have him below clearly superior defensive players at the position where that is paramount? And even offensively, the guy doesn't know how to pass, it's not as if he's dynamic on that end. He's a fairly good scorer, that's it. But not particularly efficient for a center and his rebounding + defense - even if slightly improved - are still paltry compared to a guy like Tyson.

VinceCarter
09-16-2013, 01:08 AM
Which is insane, because outside of Brook and Tyson New Jersey has a massive advantage defensively between Wallace and Reggie Evans alone. The rebounding on that team alone would've been abysmal without those two.

His D was pretty good, but not on the paint protecting impact level of Tyson (even just being in the paint effects the way teams have to attack them, which is absolutely not the case against against New Jersey).


I liked Vancouver's D last season. I really liked Seatle's offense too!

Oh. Sorry, I didn't realize it was 2013!

jimm120
09-16-2013, 01:25 AM
I voted Tyson, even though he regressed somewhat.

Still, Brook Lopez makes a good argument. He definitely became a better player last year. Will it continue? Don't think so (because of the addition of KG and Pierce), but last year, he really, truly became a better player than he used to be.

Sportfan
09-16-2013, 02:22 AM
Larry Sanders defensive impact is far greater than anyone's offense or defense impact here

JOhnnyTHaJet
09-16-2013, 03:05 AM
Brook once again is just being straight up underrated.

JOhnnyTHaJet
09-16-2013, 03:06 AM
I liked Vancouver's D last season. I really liked Seatle's offense too!

Oh. Sorry, I didn't realize it was 2013!

Still dont know why people make this mistake, I sort of get it if it was last offseason but cmon already. WE'RE BROOKLYN PEOPLE.

JOhnnyTHaJet
09-16-2013, 03:08 AM
I voted Tyson, even though he regressed somewhat.

Still, Brook Lopez makes a good argument. He definitely became a better player last year. Will it continue? Don't think so (because of the addition of KG and Pierce), but last year, he really, truly became a better player than he used to be.
Because of the additon of Pierce and KG?? I mean I get the fact that he make not get as many touches as last season but things open up so much with KG being able to take double teams away from Brook. Reggie hurt Brook severely with his horrific defense and spacing. Homer or non Homer, Brook is set up for a career year with KG next to him.

JOhnnyTHaJet
09-16-2013, 03:10 AM
I am amazed at how low Lopez is ranking. I was, in the past one of Lopez's harshest critics, but he had a great year last season. He was the highest scoring center per36 with great percentages across the board. His rebounding numbers were actually BETTER than Marc Gasol's and his blocks per game ranked among the best in the league. Only 3 centers averaged more blocks per game than Lopez(Dwight Duncan and Hibbert) and of those only 2 averaged more block per36, and one of those two one was only ahead by 0.1 blocks. And of those players, Lopez's blocks-to-fouls ratio is far better than each of them with the lone exception of Tim Duncan (who is clearly better than Lopez in that respect).


His offensive game is amazing. You'd be hard pressed to find a C you could say is a better scorer.


So I guess my question is: What does Lopez have to do to get respect? Considering he only got 30 minutes a game, his averages were extremely impressive. How he's struggling to get votes to finish as the 7th best C when he should be clearly top 5 and perhaps even top 3 is beyond me.

For me, defense and rebounding counts for a lot at the center position,but at the same time, there is something to be said for what Lopez does on offense, and his rebounding and defense are actually pretty good despite his past reputations.


Also, I think people who voted for Hibbert were really influenced by his playoff performance and forgot how poorly he played during the regular season. Not that a great playoff performance should be excluded from consideration, but neither should an extremely poor showing in the regular season.
People made up their mind about Brook awhile ago, some even call the kid "injury prone" which is just silly. The ones voting against him clearly didnt watch him last season. He was a lot more impressive than a good amount of Centers on this list including Hibbert, Horford, and Noah.

NBA-GMaster
09-16-2013, 08:22 AM
CB4, then Brook, then Cousins, then Chandler..

JasonJohnHorn
09-16-2013, 08:32 AM
How is it disrespectful to have him below clearly superior defensive players at the position where that is paramount? And even offensively, the guy doesn't know how to pass, it's not as if he's dynamic on that end. He's a fairly good scorer, that's it. But not particularly efficient for a center and his rebounding + defense - even if slightly improved - are still paltry compared to a guy like Tyson.

I'm a huge fan of Chandler, don't get me wrong, but I'm looking at all-around game. I do agree that when it comes to the center position, defense counts for a lot, as do rebounds.

On the count of defense, I think it is important to note that Lopez has become a solid rim protector. As I mention only one center got more blocks than him and had a better blocks-to-fouls ration and Chandler was not that guy. Lopez averaged more blocks despite get getting minutes, and less personal fouls per36. Those stats don't tell the whole story, I agree, but the DWS on BBR has both players at 2.6 and DRtg is about the same (Chandler is at 104 and Lopez is at 105). Stats don't tell the entire story, I agree. I wouldn't say that Lopez is a better defender based on stats, but I would suggest that the gap between the two isn't so great.

When it comes to rebounding, Chandler is clearly the superior player. No doubt about that.

On offense though, which is where half the game is played, Lopez is clearly head and shoulders above Chandler. Chandler knows his role well and doesn't step outside of his limitations, which is great and a big part of the reason he shoots such a high percentage, but Lopez has such versatility on offense that he creates a lot of problems for defenses and opens the floor up for other players. Because he has range he can step outside the paint and clear space for perimeter players and defenders have to stay on him, which makes things so much easy for guys like D-Will and JJ, where as when Melo wants to drive to the basket, he usually has Chandler's defender close enough to pick him up because Chandler is either close to the paint, or he has stepped out to clear space but his defender didn't have to because Chandler doesn't hit those shots and therefore doesn't need to be defended.


At the end of the day, regardless of how much weight you put on defense, half the game is still played at the other end of the court and you can't ignore what Lopez does there to make his team better. Also, on the defensive end, I think you have to respect what Lopez does there. The gap between Lopez and Chandler on defense is not nearly as big as the gap between Lopez and Chandler on offense. So yeah, I think it is disrespectful to ignore the progress that Lopez has made on the defensive end and claim that Chandler deserves ranking ahead of him when Lopez isn't that far behind Lopez on defense and is light years ahead of Lopez on offense.

Coupled with that, BBR has Lopez's PER at 24.7 and Chandler's at 18.9. That is a pretty big gap. Though again, I don't mean to suggest that stats tell the entire story. Still, it seems that Lopez's all around game has more to offer than Chandler's.

Ask yourself this question: If your favorite team had Chandler and had a chance to trade him for Lopez straight-up, would you take it if you knew their production for the next 4 upcoming seasons would be the same as their productions this past season?

kdspurman
09-16-2013, 08:40 AM
Went with Chandler. Was torn between him & Brook. Love Brook's game though

nycericanguy
09-16-2013, 11:22 AM
Chris Bosh should not be in the center category. It's unfair because that's not where he's best at. He should still be top 5, it's amazing how underrated Bosh is.

in this case I think he's being overlooked because people just don't see him as a C... me included.

It's hard for me to put him above true C's.

So he'll prob have to wait until the good C's get taken, which means he likely wont make top 10

NYKnickFanatic
09-16-2013, 12:16 PM
I thought Lopez should have had that fifth spot for sure, if not, sixth.

tredigs
09-16-2013, 03:13 PM
I'm a huge fan of Chandler, don't get me wrong, but I'm looking at all-around game. I do agree that when it comes to the center position, defense counts for a lot, as do rebounds.

On the count of defense, I think it is important to note that Lopez has become a solid rim protector. As I mention only one center got more blocks than him and had a better blocks-to-fouls ration and Chandler was not that guy. Lopez averaged more blocks despite get getting minutes, and less personal fouls per36. Those stats don't tell the whole story, I agree, but the DWS on BBR has both players at 2.6 and DRtg is about the same (Chandler is at 104 and Lopez is at 105). Stats don't tell the entire story, I agree. I wouldn't say that Lopez is a better defender based on stats, but I would suggest that the gap between the two isn't so great.

When it comes to rebounding, Chandler is clearly the superior player. No doubt about that.

On offense though, which is where half the game is played, Lopez is clearly head and shoulders above Chandler. Chandler knows his role well and doesn't step outside of his limitations, which is great and a big part of the reason he shoots such a high percentage, but Lopez has such versatility on offense that he creates a lot of problems for defenses and opens the floor up for other players. Because he has range he can step outside the paint and clear space for perimeter players and defenders have to stay on him, which makes things so much easy for guys like D-Will and JJ, where as when Melo wants to drive to the basket, he usually has Chandler's defender close enough to pick him up because Chandler is either close to the paint, or he has stepped out to clear space but his defender didn't have to because Chandler doesn't hit those shots and therefore doesn't need to be defended.


At the end of the day, regardless of how much weight you put on defense, half the game is still played at the other end of the court and you can't ignore what Lopez does there to make his team better. Also, on the defensive end, I think you have to respect what Lopez does there. The gap between Lopez and Chandler on defense is not nearly as big as the gap between Lopez and Chandler on offense. So yeah, I think it is disrespectful to ignore the progress that Lopez has made on the defensive end and claim that Chandler deserves ranking ahead of him when Lopez isn't that far behind Lopez on defense and is light years ahead of Lopez on offense.

Coupled with that, BBR has Lopez's PER at 24.7 and Chandler's at 18.9. That is a pretty big gap. Though again, I don't mean to suggest that stats tell the entire story. Still, it seems that Lopez's all around game has more to offer than Chandler's.

Ask yourself this question: If your favorite team had Chandler and had a chance to trade him for Lopez straight-up, would you take it if you knew their production for the next 4 upcoming seasons would be the same as their productions this past season?

That's the whole thing, I disagree 100% with the notion that "half the game is played on one end" and simply leaving it at that. A PG does not have the ability to effect a game defensively as much as a 7 foot, 250+ lb center who can own the paint and take away the highest% shots in the game against all 5 players as well as own the boards. That is why it is so crucial to find one of these centers that have this ability. If you are 7 foot, 250+ lbs and don't offer anywhere near the impact that another similar sized center does on that end of the court, you're not a premier center.

What is so special about 20 ppg on a 57% TS along with zero playmaking ability offensively? Like I said if he could pass as well, then at least it's a discussion, but this is a guy who didn't even reach 1 apg. That offense is easily replaced by a player or players at multiple positions, but Tyson's impact on the other end is only replicated by ~5 guys in the league. Both sides are not 50% of the game when you look a little closer.

tredigs
09-16-2013, 05:01 PM
Still dont know why people make this mistake, I sort of get it if it was last offseason but cmon already. WE'RE BROOKLYN PEOPLE.

They moved like 10 miles, not enough to register in my subconscious when talking about them I guess.

JasonJohnHorn
09-16-2013, 08:12 PM
That's the whole thing, I disagree 100% with the notion that "half the game is played on one end" and simply leaving it at that. A PG does not have the ability to effect a game defensively as much as a 7 foot, 250+ lb center who can own the paint and take away the highest% shots in the game against all 5 players as well as own the boards. That is why it is so crucial to find one of these centers that have this ability. If you are 7 foot, 250+ lbs and don't offer anywhere near the impact that another similar sized center does on that end of the court, you're not a premier center.

What is so special about 20 ppg on a 57% TS along with zero playmaking ability offensively? Like I said if he could pass as well, then at least it's a discussion, but this is a guy who didn't even reach 1 apg. That offense is easily replaced by a player or players at multiple positions, but Tyson's impact on the other end is only replicated by ~5 guys in the league. Both sides are not 50% of the game when you look a little closer.

I agree with you that for centers it is fair to weight the defensive end more heavily than the offensive end, and that likewise, a point guards impact on the offensive end outweigh their importance on the defensive end. You can have an amazing defender at the point (I'm reminded of Randy Brown who used to play for the Bulls, or Mark Macon who played for Denver), but if they aren't strong ball-handlers and reliable scorers, they will never have a big part in the rotation.

So yeah, I agree 100%. What I don't think we agree on is how much weight to give it. For a center, is it 75% defense and rebounds and 25% offense? I think that is excessive. I think the skill level on offense needs to be taken into consideration.


Part of my thing is that I don't think that gap between Chandler and Lopez on defense is anywhere near the size of the gap on offense. Agian, Lopex gets more blocks with fewer fouls. That has to count for something. The percentage Lopez posts is good, and you are 100% right that he isn't the ball handler he should be (he reminds me of Moses Malone in that respect). Part of that may be because he played with two guys who like to handle the ball (D_WILL and JJ) and part may be coaching (simply not running plays through him but rather for him) and part (likely most) is that Lopez is simply not that good at it yet.


But as I said, what he does, being able to shoot with range, is allow guys like D-Will and JJ to work iso or clear the lane and he forces defenders to step out and guard him. That opens things up on offense and has a huge imapct that goes beyond his scoring/assist average and his FG%. If Melo had a guy like that he'd have an easier time on offense.... as it is, if Chandler stays int he paint, he clogs the lane, and if he steps out his defender stays in and gives him space. That doesn't help the offense much.

Chandler is the better rebounder and defender and yes, rebounding and defense gets more weight with centers than offense, but that doesn't mean you disregard offense.



On a side note, there are guy who aren't centers who do a great job of impacting the team's defense. Jordan and Pippen are both great examples, as is Garnett and Ron Artest (and I mean Ron Artest, not MWP) and even Payton.

I ask you again though: If you had a chance to bring either Chandler or Lopez to your team for the next four years and they both played at the level they each played at this past season: who would you take?

Chronz
09-16-2013, 08:24 PM
I agree with you that for centers it is fair to weight the defensive end more heavily than the offensive end,

Lopez scoring vs rebounders/defenders is always an interesting debate. but why is Bosh being eliminated when he might best combine those skills?


One thing I will say is that Lopez is an underrated rebounder, if only from the sense that he boxes out his man well, allows rebounds to go to teammates and grabs a high% of rebounds within his vicinity.

jimm120
09-16-2013, 08:35 PM
So I guess we can all agree that the final 4 are:

(IN NO ORDER)
Bosh
Tyson
Brook

and the last spot goes to Sanders or Cousins