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DreamShaker
09-15-2013, 04:14 AM
We often debate the what-ifs of injury ravaged players. Guys like T-Mac, Grant Hill, Penny, Oden, Yao, Walton, and others always keep the fires of debate burning. But what about the men who enjoyed long, steadily productive careers? We have guys now that are still doing it at ripe old ages, so in honor of them and others, who can you think of that had great longevity in their NBA careers?

jerellh528
09-15-2013, 04:19 AM
Well obviously it should go without saying that Kobe Bryant's longevity and consistency as well as being a top 3 player almost his whole career, is unmatched by anyone in nba history.

Ebbs
09-15-2013, 04:24 AM
Tim Duncan as much as I hate to admit it had a pretty solid fountain of youth type year.

Minimal
09-15-2013, 06:07 AM
Steve Nash, Kobe Bryant, Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, Karl Malone, John Stockton, LeBron James, Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Reggie Miller.

jerellh528
09-15-2013, 06:22 AM
Lol somebody had to throw Lebron in the conversation, he's not even 30 yet.

dAngelo
09-15-2013, 07:36 AM
Well obviously it should go without saying that Kobe Bryant's longevity and consistency as well as being a top 3 player almost his whole career, is unmatched by anyone in nba history.

Kareem Abdul Jabbar

PurpleLynch
09-15-2013, 08:08 AM
Kaj,Kobe,Nash,Duncan,Jordan,Parish,Stockton,Miller on top of my mind.
PS: please,don't put Lebron at least in this list. He was born in 1984...

utahjazzno12fan
09-15-2013, 09:26 AM
When we talk about longevity, two players really come to mind: Stockton and Malone. They were competing as well at 40 as they were earlier in their careers.

The knock on Malone is the 03-04 season. He had a freak knee injury, but came back strong. Plus he knew he was there to be the 3rd or 4th option. It was Kobe and Shaq's team. I am not a Lakers fan, but I was pulling for them because of Malone. He is basically the reason the team got as far as they did with the Kobe-Shaq feud and Kobe's Colorado problems.

I know Kobe has played a long-time, but when I think of longevity, I also tend to think about playing at a high level into the late 30s, early 40s. He hasn't done this. He is mid-30s, but I guess technically has had longevity. I am just curious to see how he does coming back from this injury.

MJ, though the greatest of all-time, does not have real longevity. He played 15 seasons, one of which (his second), wasn't close to a full season. In some ways, that makes it more amazing how he left to play baseball, came back at a high level, left again, and came back again at a high level.

I still want to see Duncan a few more years. I think he potentially has another championship in him.

I guess, 40 is the key year for me as very few have done it and even fewer at a high level.

archdevil84
09-15-2013, 10:06 AM
andre miller

jericho
09-15-2013, 10:22 AM
Kaj,Kobe,Nash,Duncan,Jordan,Parish,Stockton,Miller on top of my mind.
PS: please,don't put Lebron at least in this list. He was born in 1984...

I hate Lebron as much as the next guy but what does this has to do with anything.

DreamShaker
09-15-2013, 10:52 AM
I hate Lebron as much as the next guy but what does this has to do with anything.

In terms of longevity, he isn't even 30. I hope he stays healthy for a long time, but you never know.

Chronz
09-15-2013, 11:41 AM
andre miller

Its hilarious how little the guy did to stay in the league. No shot, never gave a **** what he ate and still lasted forever. Why come people label superstars like Tmac or Vince as wastes of talent and not guys who tried significantly less.

PurpleLynch
09-15-2013, 12:10 PM
I hate Lebron as much as the next guy but what does this has to do with anything.

1:I don't hate James
2:It has to do because he's only 29 years old right now,so you can put him in a longevity's list,since we have to see what is he gonna do aging.

FlashBolt
09-15-2013, 12:25 PM
LeBron James is on the list because since his career began, he has never been injured while playing heavy minutes. Yes, he hasn't played up to 30 but he began playing when he was 19. He's on this list, so don't hate.

Chronz
09-15-2013, 12:27 PM
Define longevity.

Is it relative to the players level of play, like Andre Miller playing at the same level forever is amazing longevity but when people look at Vince still playing today, they see a vastly inferior player to when he was a star, but hes still displaying amazing longevity by playing at an above average level for so many years.

jericho
09-15-2013, 01:29 PM
In terms of longevity, he isn't even 30. I hope he stays healthy for a long time, but you never know.


1:I don't hate James
2:It has to do because he's only 29 years old right now,so you can put him in a longevity's list,since we have to see what is he gonna do aging.


LeBron James is on the list because since his career began, he has never been injured while playing heavy minutes. Yes, he hasn't played up to 30 but he began playing when he was 19. He's on this list, so don't hate.

Exactly my point. He has been in the league since 2003 and he hasnt gone down to any major injury. The most he has missed in a season is 7 games. I do kinda get the argument now that you guys explained it but compared to the other members from his draft class he has pretty good longetivity he has played in way more games than the other guys.

jerellh528
09-15-2013, 02:46 PM
Exactly my point. He has been in the league since 2003 and he hasnt gone down to any major injury. The most he has missed in a season is 7 games. I do kinda get the argument now that you guys explained it but compared to the other members from his draft class he has pretty good longetivity he has played in way more games than the other guys.

True or not, there are other guys in the league who don't miss games either. It's longevity, not durability and the truth is Lebron is not in the same conversation with guys like Kobe when it comes to longevity. It's just another way for leBoners to add him to every topic, I saw this coming though, so predictable.

jericho
09-15-2013, 04:00 PM
True or not, there are other guys in the league who don't miss games either. It's longevity, not durability and the truth is Lebron is not in the same conversation with guys like Kobe when it comes to longevity. It's just another way for leBoners to add him to every topic, I saw this coming though, so predictable.

Dude you are a Kobe lover and a Lebron hater. I just hate them both. Anyways durability is part of longetivity it wouldnt make sense if you say that somebody that has been in the league for 15 yrs and played in 1000 games has better longetivity than another one that has been in the league for 10 yrs and played 800 games. 10 yrs in the league and barely getting injured i think its long enough for somebody to have good longetivity.

Oh and last thing i aint gonna take your word on this cuz again you love Kobe and hate Lebron. I just really hate them both and can really be less biased than what you can.

PurpleLynch
09-15-2013, 04:30 PM
We'll have to see if Lebron has longevity. Give him 4 years and let's see how he'll handle it. Definitely with a great durability,just wanna see him aging and adjusting his game according to his possibilities. And then he will enter in the discussion.

Trueblue2
09-15-2013, 08:24 PM
Duncan, rodman, kobe, and nash immediately popped into my head

mrblisterdundee
09-15-2013, 08:30 PM
Andre Miller is the king of longevity, of you also take performance into account. He's played every game of 11 seasons, including the lockout-shortened 2011-12 season. His streak of 632 games only ended when he leveled Blake Griffin to teach him some respect.
He turned 37 last season and still played all 82 games. I don't doubt that he could do it again this year.

IndyRealist
09-15-2013, 10:46 PM
Exactly my point. He has been in the league since 2003 and he hasnt gone down to any major injury. The most he has missed in a season is 7 games. I do kinda get the argument now that you guys explained it but compared to the other members from his draft class he has pretty good longetivity he has played in way more games than the other guys.

In 18 years in Utah, Karl Malone missed like 9 games. Total.

dhopisthename
09-15-2013, 10:47 PM
john stockton missed 22 games in 20 season with 18 of those being 1 year when he hurt his knee

Hawkeye15
09-15-2013, 10:48 PM
Well obviously it should go without saying that Kobe Bryant's longevity and consistency as well as being a top 3 player almost his whole career, is unmatched by anyone in nba history.

top 3 almost his whole career? Meh. But yes, Kobe's only argument to be in the top 10 ever is in fact his longevity.

Matter.
09-15-2013, 10:55 PM
top 3 almost his whole career? Meh. But yes, Kobe's only argument to be in the top 10 ever is in fact his longevity.

smh

flea
09-15-2013, 10:57 PM
Lebron and probably Kobe don't belong anywhere near this thread - unless you think "longevity" actually means "durability" (which it doesn't).

jerellh528
09-15-2013, 11:53 PM
Lol at that flea guy saying Kobe doesn't deserve mention in this thread. This thread was probably created FOR Kobe.

Mcdoh
09-15-2013, 11:54 PM
Kobe, duncan and garnett

amos1er
09-16-2013, 12:03 AM
Kobe, Malone, Kareem.

DreamShaker
09-16-2013, 12:09 AM
Define longevity.

Is it relative to the players level of play, like Andre Miller playing at the same level forever is amazing longevity but when people look at Vince still playing today, they see a vastly inferior player to when he was a star, but hes still displaying amazing longevity by playing at an above average level for so many years.

Both qualify to me. Being able to stay around and continue to contribute to teams at any level is longevity. There are differing levels, such as the two you mentioned. Vince is actually a guy I thought of. You look at him and look at guys like Penny, T-Mac, Iverson, Arenas, Francis, Marbury, Baron Davis...guys who were once superstars and failed to transition into role players, Vince has accomplished something.

hugepatsfan
09-16-2013, 12:16 AM
I was very afraid this would be a gay porn troll thread when I opened it

jerellh528
09-16-2013, 01:00 AM
I was very afraid this would be a gay porn troll thread when I opened it

I bet Greg oden woulda won that thread .

amos1er
09-16-2013, 02:11 AM
True or not, there are other guys in the league who don't miss games either. It's longevity, not durability and the truth is Lebron is not in the same conversation with guys like Kobe when it comes to longevity. It's just another way for leBoners to add him to every topic, I saw this coming though, so predictable.

Lol.

amos1er
09-16-2013, 02:12 AM
top 3 almost his whole career? Meh. But yes, Kobe's only argument to be in the top 10 ever is in fact his longevity.

Only argument. Lol.

amos1er
09-16-2013, 02:20 AM
If we are going by career minutes played, than Kobe easily had by far the best regular season of anyone in NBA history last season. Kobe's top-notch longevity is a testament to his superior work ethic which is easily the greatest of any NBA player in history and arguably the best of any athlete in the past 100 years... Other than Floyd Mayweather of course.

amos1er
09-16-2013, 02:26 AM
Define longevity.

Is it relative to the players level of play, like Andre Miller playing at the same level forever is amazing longevity but when people look at Vince still playing today, they see a vastly inferior player to when he was a star, but hes still displaying amazing longevity by playing at an above average level for so many years.

I would say that it's the combination of playing at the highest possible level coupled with the ability to sustain it for the longest possible duration of time.

Ergo... Playing at a high level + Playing for a long period of time = Longevity

Guys like Vince Carter would be more of an example of decent longevity as he played for a long time, but only half of his career at a high level and even then was barely a top ten player in his best years.

Guys like Kobe, Malone, and Kareem would be the best examples as they had the longest stints in the upper echelon of their respective peers. Especially Kobe who was still a top five player in his 17th season.

ragee
09-16-2013, 02:26 AM
Dirk should definitely be mentioned in this conversation. He has been playing in the league for 15 years and have logged more mins than Steve Nash. He have not missed a lot of games before last season.

amos1er
09-16-2013, 02:30 AM
Dirk should definitely be mentioned in this conversation. He has been playing in the league for 15 years and have logged more mins than Steve Nash. He have not missed a lot of games before last season.

I would give Dirk an 8 out of 10 in longevity.

ragee
09-16-2013, 02:38 AM
I would give Dirk an 8 out of 10 in longevity.

The only active player I would put over him is Kobe. Duncan and Nash have entered the league before him but he has been more consistent and more durable than the two.

amos1er
09-16-2013, 03:35 AM
The only active player I would put over him is Kobe. Duncan and Nash have entered the league before him but he has been more consistent and more durable than the two.

I was talking about all time. Guys like Kareem and Malone are still above him. Not to say he won't still go strong for the next few years and improve his ranking.

ragee
09-16-2013, 08:06 AM
I was talking about all time. Guys like Kareem and Malone are still above him. Not to say he won't still go strong for the next few years and improve his ranking.

That's why I said "active players." Lol

Malone was a beast! Didn't he get his MVP award when he was like 35 or something?

Big Zo
09-16-2013, 09:14 AM
Juwan Howard.

kdspurman
09-16-2013, 09:38 AM
The only active player I would put over him is Kobe. Duncan and Nash have entered the league before him but he has been more consistent and more durable than the two.

I don't know he's been more consistent than Duncan. Durable is 1 thing, but when you play the way he plays, that's not too surprising.

ragee
09-16-2013, 09:56 AM
I don't know he's been more consistent than Duncan. Durable is 1 thing, but when you play the way he plays, that's not too surprising.

Why? How does Dirk play? And care to expound on how Duncan is more consistent than Dirk? I do believe Duncan is the best PF of all time but to say that has been consistent for the last few years is overreaching.

kdspurman
09-16-2013, 10:32 AM
Why? How does Dirk play? And care to expound on how Duncan is more consistent than Dirk? I do believe Duncan is the best PF of all time but to say that has been consistent for the last few years is overreaching.

I mean TD has a bigger burden to carry on the defensive end than Dirk does. TD had a couple of down years with a nagging knee injury, but as a complete player, I think TD's been more consistent.

ragee
09-16-2013, 11:31 AM
I mean TD has a bigger burden to carry on the defensive end than Dirk does. TD had a couple of down years with a nagging knee injury, but as a complete player, I think TD's been more consistent.

But this is not about who is better or who is the more complete player though. Its about longevity which is all about consistency and durability.

Dirk has been more durable than Duncan even though Pop limited and used Duncan's mins well.

Dirk has been more consistent on playing average defense and great offense than Duncan playing great on both ends of the floor.

Therefore, I still stick to what I have stated above, which is Kobe is the only active player who I will put over Dirk when it comes to longevity.

kdspurman
09-16-2013, 12:16 PM
But this is not about who is better or who is the more complete player though. Its about longevity which is all about consistency and durability.

Dirk has been more durable than Duncan even though Pop limited and used Duncan's mins well.

Dirk has been more consistent on playing average defense and great offense than Duncan playing great on both ends of the floor.

Therefore, I still stick to what I have stated above, which is Kobe is the only active player who I will put over Dirk when it comes to longevity.

The durable part goes back to what I said about their responsibilities on their respective teams.

We'll agree to disagree on the rest though I guess. I know Dirk has been very consistent throughout his career.

Stinkyoutsider
09-16-2013, 12:43 PM
Kevin Willis. I thought the guy would never retire lol. I'm not sure if he had any serious injuries in his career but he played into his 40s. Think he retired when he was 42 or 43?

Hawkeye15
09-16-2013, 12:44 PM
Only argument. Lol.

his peak and prime suggest he isn't a top 10 player ever. Fact. However, his ridiculously longevity as a top 3-6 player for a decade and a half make his case totally plausible.

jaydubb
09-16-2013, 12:49 PM
Only argument. Lol.

his peak and prime suggest he isn't a top 10 player ever. Fact. However, his ridiculously longevity as a top 3-6 player for a decade and a half make his case totally plausible.

Most laker fans don't like you, but I actually like you a lot whether I agree with you or not.. Haha

jaydubb
09-16-2013, 01:02 PM
kAJ is king of longevity imo.. I honestly think kobe has a lot more work before he catches up with kareem. Karl Malone is another that stands out for me..

BTW, I saw some discussion earlier in the thread about lebron, well here's my piece, I think he is still too young to talk about career longevity but I think its crazy how long he's been playing and still hasn't had any major injuries.. Even Kobe at the same point in his career has had dislocated shoulders, broken bones and muscle strains but lebron hasn't.. Time will tell what happens when his body gets older, but so far I'm impressed with what I've seen from him.

Big Zo
09-16-2013, 01:23 PM
Robert Parish is another one that played for like 500 years.

Pablonovi
09-16-2013, 01:25 PM
Well obviously it should go without saying that Kobe Bryant's longevity and consistency as well as being a top 3 player almost his whole career, is unmatched by anyone in nba history.

Hey jerelh, you have to not include his first two years when he wasnt even a starter, no? So thats 15 great years. Kaj had 18 great years, nobody beats him in great quality longetivity yet. Due to this severe injury, it is going to be pretty difficult for kobe to rack up 3 more great years. Im not betting against because of his intensity, but, in my opinion he is definitely behind kaj in both this topic and great peak. The big problem with this thread is that it is really a question of quantity rather than quality. All of us can answer this correctly by simply going to any career stats site and look up the list of the guys with the most years, games and or minutes. The OP is not really the best for drawing forth a great debate.

jstone0716
09-16-2013, 01:35 PM
Stockton

jerellh528
09-16-2013, 03:21 PM
Hey jerelh, you have to not include his first two years when he wasnt even a starter, no? So thats 15 great years. Kaj had 18 great years, nobody beats him in great quality longetivity yet. Due to this severe injury, it is going to be pretty difficult for kobe to rack up 3 more great years. Im not betting against because of his intensity, but, in my opinion he is definitely behind kaj in both this topic and great peak. The big problem with this thread is that it is really a question of quantity rather than quality. All of us can answer this correctly by simply going to any career stats site and look up the list of the guys with the most years, games and or minutes. The OP is not really the best for drawing forth a great debate.

Yeah Kareem had a great career but not the longevity of Kobe. Kareem started to decline after 12 yrs at the age of 34, started his career at 22, his average minutes even decrease by about 10 per game after his 12th season. Still had some great years but was in an obvious decline. Kobe has been consistanly a top 5 player since he was about 20/21, started his career at 18,and has been ever since, he has declined some, but some people would even say last year was one of his best and was a top 5 nba player and still plays top minutes. You can't say that anyone else in nba history has performed as high as him for so long.

DreamShaker
09-16-2013, 06:23 PM
Juwan Howard.

Dude has been around forever. He falls in that Kurt Thomas, Bo Outlaw, Kevin Willis, Antoine Carr group of big guys who always seem to be able to go in and play solid minutes no matter what age they are.

xxplayerxx23
09-16-2013, 06:55 PM
Any list that doesn't include Kobe, Duncan and Andre miller at the very least is wrong IMO
Lebron will probably be on it eventually but he hasn't been here longer

amos1er
09-17-2013, 12:01 AM
Most laker fans don't like you, but I actually like you a lot whether I agree with you or not.. Haha

We're you talking to me or Hawkeye?

Lakersfan2483
09-17-2013, 03:06 AM
Some guys that immediately come to mind are: John Stockton, Kobe Bryant, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Karl Malone, Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, Jason Kidd, and Robert Parrish. I am sure I am missing some others, but all of those guys have enjoyed long, successful careers.

amos1er
09-17-2013, 03:30 AM
his peak and prime suggest he isn't a top 10 player ever. Fact. However, his ridiculously longevity as a top 3-6 player for a decade and a half make his case totally plausible.

There are many other factors that contribute to Kobe being a top ten player of all time. Not just longevity. Dude lit up the league from 2005-2010. Arguable the best player in the league during that span. Easily top 2-5 in many other years. His five championships have a lot to do with that as well. His individual scoring accolades are easily amongst the top 3 of all time. He also played stellar defense throughout the majority of his career. Though I will agree his last two all NBA defensive selections were undeserved. Not to mention his work ethic and clutch play as well. His entire body of work are the likes of which that can only be surpassed by a select few. That's why he is a top ten player of all time... Not just simply longevity... Though that is major part of it as well.

jaydubb
09-17-2013, 08:37 AM
Most laker fans don't like you, but I actually like you a lot whether I agree with you or not.. Haha

We're you talking to me or Hawkeye?

I was talking to Hawkeye.. I don't think I've ever agreed with the guy, buy I'll give him one thing, he's consistent with how he feels about the Lakers and Kobe.. I think some of his arguments are funny at times. Haha

Hawkeye15
09-17-2013, 11:27 AM
There are many other factors that contribute to Kobe being a top ten player of all time. Not just longevity. Dude lit up the league from 2005-2010. Arguable the best player in the league during that span. Easily top 2-5 in many other years. His five championships have a lot to do with that as well. His individual scoring accolades are easily amongst the top 3 of all time. He also played stellar defense throughout the majority of his career. Though I will agree his last two all NBA defensive selections were undeserved. Not to mention his work ethic and clutch play as well. His entire body of work are the likes of which that can only be surpassed by a select few. That's why he is a top ten player of all time... Not just simply longevity... Though that is major part of it as well.

While I disagree that he was ever the clear cut best player in the game, the rest of your points I agree with. When the dust settles, he has so many awards, accolades, and accomplishments, both on an individual level, and team level. My point is, I personally don't feel his peak represents one of the top 12-13 peaks in NBA history. But his longevity gives him a bump.

Pablonovi
09-17-2013, 01:11 PM
his peak and prime suggest he isn't a top 10 player ever. Fact. However, his ridiculously longevity as a top 3-6 player for a decade and a half make his case totally plausible.

earlier in this thread Hawkeye you had said,
"top 3 almost his whole career? Meh. But yes, Kobe's only argument to be in the top 10 ever is in fact his longevity."

Hey Hawkeye (and amos1er),
On sports forums one can't avoid hyperbole, and I'm as hyperbolic as the next guy/gal, so ...
Here we have Hawkeye at his worst and best. Of ALL the Kobe-haters, he's the #1 GOAT for honesty. Thus his earlier post. But, infinitely more important to me, is his second statement.

"his peak and prime suggest he isn't a top 10 player ever. Fact. However, his ridiculously longevity as a top 3-6 player for a decade and a half make his case totally plausible. "

This is the statement of a "big" man. How many examples of a big-time hater do we have where he can simultaneously hate big-time and yet compliment to this degree; and the entire compliment succinctly precise?!

Reminds me of bagwell 's opinion about Russell; changing from #1 to like #16. Only morally "big men (and women)" can go beyond their own strongly-held beliefs and make such huge (and imo opinion absolutely correct) changes about, within the sports world, such big issues.

At the same time, we have amos1er, who, here in post #60 says,
"There are many other factors that contribute to Kobe being a top ten player of all time. Not just longevity. Dude lit up the league from 2005-2010. Arguable the best player in the league during that span. Easily top 2-5 in many other years. His five championships have a lot to do with that as well. His individual scoring accolades are easily amongst the top 3 of all time. He also played stellar defense throughout the majority of his career. Though I will agree his last two all NBA defensive selections were undeserved. Not to mention his work ethic and clutch play as well. His entire body of work are the likes of which that can only be surpassed by a select few. That's why he is a top ten player of all time... Not just simply longevity... Though that is major part of it as well. "

I wanna say a couple of things here.
1st, amos1er, imo this IS YOUR best-put defense of Kobe's greatness that I've seen; and thus, my favorite of the many of your many posts on PSD that I've seen.

2nd, this back and forth between traditional "enemies" (at least in terms of Kobe's would-be greatness) is revealing because; in the second place it has been very principled, well done; but more importantly, I see VERY LITTLE difference between you two; imo the gap is quite small.

To achieve that takes TWO "big men". Bravo to both of you.

This increases by a significant bit, my hope/faith in "my fellow (wo-)man" and in PSD. Nice.

ILLUSIONIST^248
09-17-2013, 01:12 PM
True or not, there are other guys in the league who don't miss games either. It's longevity, not durability and the truth is Lebron is not in the same conversation with guys like Kobe when it comes to longevity. It's just another way for leBoners to add him to every topic, I saw this coming though, so predictable.

The Lebron stroking on this site is joke.

ILLUSIONIST^248
09-17-2013, 01:16 PM
top 3 almost his whole career? Meh. But yes, Kobe's only argument to be in the top 10 ever is in fact his longevity.

My god Hawk, will you ever give up on that dumb argument?

ILLUSIONIST^248
09-17-2013, 01:24 PM
his peak and prime suggest he isn't a top 10 player ever. Fact. However, his ridiculously longevity as a top 3-6 player for a decade and a half make his case totally plausible.

Kobe's 1/5 players in Nba history to average 35 ppg in a season, and 1/2 in the modern era. This coming in the most difficult defensive era in history (your words).

ILLUSIONIST^248
09-17-2013, 01:29 PM
While I disagree that he was ever the clear cut best player in the game, the rest of your points I agree with. When the dust settles, he has so many awards, accolades, and accomplishments, both on an individual level, and team level. My point is, I personally don't feel his peak represents one of the top 12-13 peaks in NBA history. But his longevity gives him a bump.

http://youtu.be/anoqbgOZrEg

http://youtu.be/IxYZAgKRtM8

I'm going to say they know a little more about the game than you do good sir.

Pierzynski4Prez
09-17-2013, 01:45 PM
Juwan Howard

You
09-17-2013, 01:57 PM
Ben Wallace

flea
09-17-2013, 02:01 PM
It's not Kobe hate to recognize that his durability and consistency are what separates him in spite of the fact that he's never been the best player in the league in any given season.

MrfadeawayJB
09-17-2013, 02:29 PM
Jason Kidd and Derek fisher are names that haven't been mentioned too much

amos1er
09-17-2013, 02:35 PM
It's not Kobe hate to recognize that his durability and consistency are what separates him in spite of the fact that he's never been the best player in the league in any given season.

Epic Fail.

amos1er
09-17-2013, 02:36 PM
http://youtu.be/anoqbgOZrEg

http://youtu.be/IxYZAgKRtM8

I'm going to say they know a little more about the game than you do good sir.

Forgot about this one bro.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtGJSiMqpWk&feature=youtu.be

Funny how these guys still want to deny it even after the worlds foremost experts blatantly disagree with them.

flea
09-17-2013, 03:02 PM
Epic Fail.

Tell me what year you think he was the best in the league, then. This isn't the Lakers forum where you can just expect everyone to be a Kobe-phile - that's probably where you'd be most comfortable though.

Pablonovi
09-17-2013, 03:07 PM
Hey all,
I call this "THE Definitive Post Regarding LONGETIVITY"
NOT because I wrote it. I didn't write it, bballsports (career-seasons) and basketball-reference (career games+minutes) did; I just copied-and-pasted their stuff.

BUT, seeing as the OP did not even define what he/she means by the word; then we are left with either:
SUBJECTIVE CHAOS (with each poster judging on the basis of their own "definition" vis--vis this thread) (and this is exactly what we have seen within this thread);

OR

OBJECTIVE FACTS

So, given the too-obvious too-vagueness of the OP, you can't go wrong if you make your own list based on any one or some combination of the following three Tables:
Career Seasons, Career Games, Career Minutes.

NBA & ABA Career Leaders and Records for Seasons Played
Most seasons

21 Robert Parish
21 Kevin Willis
21 Moses Malone
20 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
19 James Edwards
19 Juwan Howard
19 Jason Kidd
19 Karl Malone
19 Shaquille O'Neal
19 Charles Oakley
19 John Stockton
18 Terry Cummings
18 Kevin Garnett
18 Grant Hill
18 Rick Mahorn
18 Reggie Miller
18 Dikembe Mutombo
18 Hakeem Olajuwon
18 Clifford Robinson
18 Wayne "Tree" Rollins
18 Danny Schayes
18 Jerry Stackhouse
18 Kurt Thomas
18 Herb Williams
17 Kobe Bryant
17 Ray Allen
17 Marcus Camby
17 Dale Ellis
17 Patrick Ewing
17 Derek Fisher
17 Artis Gilmore
17 Horace Grant
17 Linsey Hunter
17 Mark Jackson
17 Eddie A. Johnson
17 Caldwell Jones
17 Jerome Kersey
17 Steve Nash
17 Jermaine O'Neal
17 Gary Payton
17 Sam Perkins
17 Scottie Pippen
17 Terry Porter
17 Rod Strickland
17 Otis Thorpe
17 Mark West
17 Buck Williams

NBA & ABA Career Leaders and Records for Games Played
1. Robert Parish* 1611
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 1560
3. John Stockton* 1504
4. Karl Malone* 1476
5. Moses Malone* 1455
6. Kevin Willis 1424
7. Jason Kidd 1391
8. Reggie Miller* 1389
9. Clifford Robinson 1380
10. Gary Payton* 1335
11. Artis Gilmore* 1329
12. Kevin Garnett 1323
13. Buck Williams 1307
14. Elvin Hayes* 1303
15. Caldwell Jones 1299
16. Mark Jackson 1296
17. Sam Perkins 1286
18. Charles Oakley 1282
19. A.C. Green 1278
20. Terry Porter 1274
21. John Havlicek* 1270
22. Otis Thorpe 1257
23. Paul Silas 1254
24. Julius Erving* 1243
25. Kobe Bryant 1239
26. Hakeem Olajuwon* 1238
27. Ray Allen 1227
28. Dan Issel* 1218
29. Dale Ellis 1209
30. Juwan Howard 1208
31. Shaquille O'Neal 1207
32. Derek Fisher 1206
33. Steve Nash 1202
34. Derek Harper 1199
Eddie Johnson 1199
36. Dikembe Mutombo 1196
37. Alex English* 1193
38. Terry Cummings 1183
Patrick Ewing* 1183
40. Tim Duncan 1180
41. Scottie Pippen* 1178
42. James Edwards 1168
43. Horace Grant 1165
44. Johnny Newman 1159
45. Tree Rollins 1156
46. Jerome Kersey 1153
47. Michael Cage 1140
48. Danny Schayes 1138
49. Detlef Schrempf 1136
50. Vlade Divac 1134
51. Andre Miller 1126
(I included #51, only because he has been mentioned in this thread; he's ONLY 51st; but 1100+ games is a monster amount of longetivity amongst some 4,000 guys who ever played.)

NBA & ABA Career Leaders and Records for Minutes Played
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 57446
2. Karl Malone* 54852
3. Jason Kidd 50111
4. Elvin Hayes* 50000
5. Moses Malone* 49444
6. Wilt Chamberlain* 47859
7. Kevin Garnett 47801
8. John Stockton* 47764
9. Reggie Miller* 47619
10. Artis Gilmore* 47134
11. Gary Payton* 47117
12. John Havlicek* 46471
13. Robert Parish* 45704
14. Kobe Bryant 45390
15. Julius Erving* 45227
16. Ray Allen 44408
17. Hakeem Olajuwon* 44222
18. Oscar Robertson* 43886
19. Clifford Robinson 42561
20. Buck Williams 42464
21. Shaquille O'Neal 41918
22. Dan Issel* 41784
23. Tim Duncan 41447
24. Scottie Pippen* 41069
25. Michael Jordan* 41011
26. Bill Russell* 40726
27. Patrick Ewing* 40594
28. Paul Pierce 40360
29. Charles Oakley 40280
30. Dirk Nowitzki 39975
31. Otis Thorpe 39822
32. Hal Greer* 39788
33. Charles Barkley* 39330
34. Mark Jackson 39121
35. Walt Bellamy* 38940
36. Horace Grant 38621
37. Kevin Willis 38362
38. Rick Barry* 38153
39. Dominique Wilkins* 38113
40. Lenny Wilkens* 38064
41. Alex English* 38063
42. Michael Finley 37996
43. Derek Harper 37786
44. Steve Nash 37756
45. Allen Iverson 37584
46. Andre Miller 37572
47. Clyde Drexler* 37537
48. Antawn Jamison 37390
49. Vince Carter 37267
50. Jack Sikma 36943
51. Dikembe Mutombo 36791
52. Juwan Howard 36654
53. Sam Perkins 36598
54. Shawn Marion 36587
55. Jerry West* 36571
56. A.C. Green 36552

(iirc A.C. Green still holds the record for most games played consecutively) All kinds of interesting names in this list here. You just can NOT get 35,000 minutes in an NBA career unless you earned them by being pretty darned good for a very long time.

Hawkeye15
09-17-2013, 03:58 PM
Hey all,
I call this "THE Definitive Post Regarding LONGETIVITY"
NOT because I wrote it. I didn't write it, bballsports (career-seasons) and basketball-reference (career games+minutes) did; I just copied-and-pasted their stuff.

BUT, seeing as the OP did not even define what he/she means by the word; then we are left with either:
SUBJECTIVE CHAOS (with each poster judging on the basis of their own "definition" vis--vis this thread) (and this is exactly what we have seen within this thread);

OR

OBJECTIVE FACTS

So, given the too-obvious too-vagueness of the OP, you can't go wrong if you make your own list based on any one or some combination of the following three Tables:
Career Seasons, Career Games, Career Minutes.

NBA & ABA Career Leaders and Records for Seasons Played
Most seasons

21 Robert Parish
21 Kevin Willis
21 Moses Malone
20 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
19 James Edwards
19 Juwan Howard
19 Jason Kidd
19 Karl Malone
19 Shaquille O'Neal
19 Charles Oakley
19 John Stockton
18 Terry Cummings
18 Kevin Garnett
18 Grant Hill
18 Rick Mahorn
18 Reggie Miller
18 Dikembe Mutombo
18 Hakeem Olajuwon
18 Clifford Robinson
18 Wayne "Tree" Rollins
18 Danny Schayes
18 Jerry Stackhouse
18 Kurt Thomas
18 Herb Williams
17 Kobe Bryant
17 Ray Allen
17 Marcus Camby
17 Dale Ellis
17 Patrick Ewing
17 Derek Fisher
17 Artis Gilmore
17 Horace Grant
17 Linsey Hunter
17 Mark Jackson
17 Eddie A. Johnson
17 Caldwell Jones
17 Jerome Kersey
17 Steve Nash
17 Jermaine O'Neal
17 Gary Payton
17 Sam Perkins
17 Scottie Pippen
17 Terry Porter
17 Rod Strickland
17 Otis Thorpe
17 Mark West
17 Buck Williams

NBA & ABA Career Leaders and Records for Games Played
1. Robert Parish* 1611
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 1560
3. John Stockton* 1504
4. Karl Malone* 1476
5. Moses Malone* 1455
6. Kevin Willis 1424
7. Jason Kidd 1391
8. Reggie Miller* 1389
9. Clifford Robinson 1380
10. Gary Payton* 1335
11. Artis Gilmore* 1329
12. Kevin Garnett 1323
13. Buck Williams 1307
14. Elvin Hayes* 1303
15. Caldwell Jones 1299
16. Mark Jackson 1296
17. Sam Perkins 1286
18. Charles Oakley 1282
19. A.C. Green 1278
20. Terry Porter 1274
21. John Havlicek* 1270
22. Otis Thorpe 1257
23. Paul Silas 1254
24. Julius Erving* 1243
25. Kobe Bryant 1239
26. Hakeem Olajuwon* 1238
27. Ray Allen 1227
28. Dan Issel* 1218
29. Dale Ellis 1209
30. Juwan Howard 1208
31. Shaquille O'Neal 1207
32. Derek Fisher 1206
33. Steve Nash 1202
34. Derek Harper 1199
Eddie Johnson 1199
36. Dikembe Mutombo 1196
37. Alex English* 1193
38. Terry Cummings 1183
Patrick Ewing* 1183
40. Tim Duncan 1180
41. Scottie Pippen* 1178
42. James Edwards 1168
43. Horace Grant 1165
44. Johnny Newman 1159
45. Tree Rollins 1156
46. Jerome Kersey 1153
47. Michael Cage 1140
48. Danny Schayes 1138
49. Detlef Schrempf 1136
50. Vlade Divac 1134
51. Andre Miller 1126
(I included #51, only because he has been mentioned in this thread; he's ONLY 51st; but 1100+ games is a monster amount of longetivity amongst some 4,000 guys who ever played.)

NBA & ABA Career Leaders and Records for Minutes Played
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 57446
2. Karl Malone* 54852
3. Jason Kidd 50111
4. Elvin Hayes* 50000
5. Moses Malone* 49444
6. Wilt Chamberlain* 47859
7. Kevin Garnett 47801
8. John Stockton* 47764
9. Reggie Miller* 47619
10. Artis Gilmore* 47134
11. Gary Payton* 47117
12. John Havlicek* 46471
13. Robert Parish* 45704
14. Kobe Bryant 45390
15. Julius Erving* 45227
16. Ray Allen 44408
17. Hakeem Olajuwon* 44222
18. Oscar Robertson* 43886
19. Clifford Robinson 42561
20. Buck Williams 42464
21. Shaquille O'Neal 41918
22. Dan Issel* 41784
23. Tim Duncan 41447
24. Scottie Pippen* 41069
25. Michael Jordan* 41011
26. Bill Russell* 40726
27. Patrick Ewing* 40594
28. Paul Pierce 40360
29. Charles Oakley 40280
30. Dirk Nowitzki 39975
31. Otis Thorpe 39822
32. Hal Greer* 39788
33. Charles Barkley* 39330
34. Mark Jackson 39121
35. Walt Bellamy* 38940
36. Horace Grant 38621
37. Kevin Willis 38362
38. Rick Barry* 38153
39. Dominique Wilkins* 38113
40. Lenny Wilkens* 38064
41. Alex English* 38063
42. Michael Finley 37996
43. Derek Harper 37786
44. Steve Nash 37756
45. Allen Iverson 37584
46. Andre Miller 37572
47. Clyde Drexler* 37537
48. Antawn Jamison 37390
49. Vince Carter 37267
50. Jack Sikma 36943
51. Dikembe Mutombo 36791
52. Juwan Howard 36654
53. Sam Perkins 36598
54. Shawn Marion 36587
55. Jerry West* 36571
56. A.C. Green 36552

(iirc A.C. Green still holds the record for most games played consecutively) All kinds of interesting names in this list here. You just can NOT get 35,000 minutes in an NBA career unless you earned them by being pretty darned good for a very long time.

basically, combine your post with the length of time a player was at his personal high level (whether that be a star like KAJ or Kobe, or just a good NBA player like Andre Miller or Cliff Robinson. That is what defines longevity.

Pablonovi
09-17-2013, 04:59 PM
basically, combine your post with the length of time a player was at his personal high level (whether that be a star like KAJ or Kobe, or just a good NBA player like Andre Miller or Cliff Robinson. That is what defines longevity.

Hey Hawk,
I was NOT really expecting a response that would surprise me in a such a good way; but this is a pretty good working definition. Why? Because instead of either just repeating my list (which would involve no personal opinion at all); or just repeating a PEAK discussion; this is distinct and allows for the inclusion of non All-Time Greats who did have fine LONG careers. Nice.

Hawkeye15
09-17-2013, 05:30 PM
Hey Hawk,
I was NOT really expecting a response that would surprise me in a such a good way; but this is a pretty good working definition. Why? Because instead of either just repeating my list (which would involve no personal opinion at all); or just repeating a PEAK discussion; this is distinct and allows for the inclusion of non All-Time Greats who did have fine LONG careers. Nice.

Furthermore, who is to say Kevin Willis doesn't fit the "longevity" argument? Or Andre Miller? Guys who were never so called stars, or even first option players, but guys whose game translated well enough, and who stayed healthy enough, to play at a high enough level forever.

amos1er
09-17-2013, 07:45 PM
Tell me what year you think he was the best in the league, then. This isn't the Lakers forum where you can just expect everyone to be a Kobe-phile - that's probably where you'd be most comfortable though.

First off, you say that "durability and consistency" are the reasons Kobe is great. Those two things have nothing to do with longevity. For one, just because a player is durable doesn't mean he adds great value in terms of production. One would have to play at a high level for a long period of time to be considered for having great longevity. Second, Kobe has been far from durable throughout the duration of his career. He has suffered tons of injuries... He has just found a way to play through them at a continuous high level. Also, consistency is a very loose definition in that any player no matter what high level or value they bring to a given team can be consistent. They can be consistently bad, consistently average, consistently good, or consistently great. You really needed to elaborate more on that one as a player like Andre Miller, although consistently good for a long span of time, is no where near the level of longevity as a Kobe Bryant. It's much more difficult to sustain a high level of play for a long duration of time than it is to sustain an above average level of play for a long duration of time.

Another thing wrong with your original comment, and why it was an epic fail, is that you said Kobe was never the best player in the league in any given year. This is total opinion argument and you stated it like it was common knowledge. Although I will for arguments sake entertain that Kobe might not have been the clear cut best in any given year, it sure as heck is very debatable. So (and I'm sure even Hawkeye will agree with this) had you phrased you sentence a little more clearly such as: IMO Kobe was never the best player in the NBA in any given year. Or Kobe arguably was never the clear cut best player in the NBA... Your point would have held a lot more validity than just the illogical ramblings of a common Kobe hater.

amos1er
09-17-2013, 07:53 PM
While I disagree that he was ever the clear cut best player in the game, the rest of your points I agree with. When the dust settles, he has so many awards, accolades, and accomplishments, both on an individual level, and team level. My point is, I personally don't feel his peak represents one of the top 12-13 peaks in NBA history. But his longevity gives him a bump.

Sounds fair enough. I can agree with most of this. Though I feel Kobe had a very good case at being considered the best player in the NBA for 3-5 years. Though I will agree that it's not clear cut (per the thread/poll I created a month ago), it's definitely very debatable and I personally feel it to be so and so do a lot of other people including a vast majority of credible basketball experts, players, ex-players, coaches, GM's, owners, and members of the media.

Hawkeye15
09-17-2013, 08:05 PM
Sounds fair enough. I can agree with most of this. Though I feel Kobe had a very good case at being considered the best player in the NBA for 3-5 years. Though I will agree that it's not clear cut (per the thread/poll I created a month ago), it's definitely very debatable and I personally feel it to be so and so do a lot of other people including a vast majority of credible basketball experts, players, ex-players, coaches, GM's, owners, and members of the media.

you made one point that I go back and forth on. Over a 5 year period, Kobe may have been the best overall player, meaning (to me), that he routinely was in that 2-4 convo, while other players that may have had a single season better kind of flipped back and forth from #1, to #6-8 for example (or even worse). So his level of consistency, while I don't think ever put forth THE best season, might have been the best over a 5 yearish gap.

I struggle evaluating Kobe. My eyes and stats tell me his peak just doesn't stack up against 12-14 others. But his unreal level of play over such a long period is so difficult to ignore. And I might simply be overseeing his dominance through his prime from the very statement I made. Maybe he did have the best 5 year run of any player in his generation (Shaq and LeBron are not his generation btw).

flea
09-17-2013, 09:01 PM
First off, you say that "durability and consistency" are the reasons Kobe is great. Those two things have nothing to do with longevity. For one, just because a player is durable doesn't mean he adds great value in terms of production. One would have to play at a high level for a long period of time to be considered for having great longevity. Second, Kobe has been far from durable throughout the duration of his career. He has suffered tons of injuries... He has just found a way to play through them at a continuous high level. Also, consistency is a very loose definition in that any player no matter what high level or value they bring to a given team can be consistent. They can be consistently bad, consistently average, consistently good, or consistently great. You really needed to elaborate more on that one as a player like Andre Miller, although consistently good for a long span of time, is no where near the level of longevity as a Kobe Bryant. It's much more difficult to sustain a high level of play for a long duration of time than it is to sustain an above average level of play for a long duration of time.

Another thing wrong with your original comment, and why it was an epic fail, is that you said Kobe was never the best player in the league in any given year. This is total opinion argument and you stated it like it was common knowledge. Although I will for arguments sake entertain that Kobe might not have been the clear cut best in any given year, it sure as heck is very debatable. So (and I'm sure even Hawkeye will agree with this) had you phrased you sentence a little more clearly such as: IMO Kobe was never the best player in the NBA in any given year. Or Kobe arguably was never the clear cut best player in the NBA... Your point would have held a lot more validity than just the illogical ramblings of a common Kobe hater.

I do not hate Kobe, Kobe-phile. Did you not see that part of my post? I also never said his consistency or durability had anything to do with longevity. In fact, I said Kobe isn't quite ready for this discussion yet because he doesn't stack up against guys who played longer than him. It's not Kobe's fault, he's still relatively young.

Finally, it pretty much is a fact that Kobe was never the best player in the league. It's unfortunate for him and sometimes just how things work out in the NBA. It also doesn't help him that good bigs are always better than good wings, with all else being equal. This is why Michael is remarkable.

Pablonovi
09-17-2013, 10:01 PM
You could get the impression from the number of posts about it that this is just one more thread that has been derailed into a debate about Kobe's greatness. BUT, the quality of the comments, AND the "give" from earlier-hardened positions has, imo, made it worth it. (Plus I want to thank the two guys who posted the links to those "Comments on Kobe Bryant" (pts 1,2,3); I had NOT seen those before and DO appreciate this.)

However, can we get back to the OP?
Particularly, I'd love to hear people's opinions about any and everybody who was clearly NOT in the All-Time Top 25. For example: Who were the long-term most consistent players, the players that had, say, 15 years of almost equal play? (I know Duncan is clearly an All-Time best but I just want to mention him AS AN EXAMPLE OF CONSISTENCY. Over the last 15 years, maybe he had two bad years because of knee-problems; take them out of the equation, and, it seems to me, you have remarkable consistency; where his best years were NOT WAY BETTER than his weakest ones.) So, which non Top 25 ers, are most similar to that?

ILLUSIONIST^248
09-18-2013, 03:54 PM
It's not Kobe hate to recognize that his durability and consistency are what separates him in spite of the fact that he's never been the best player in the league in any given season.

post 67 laughs at you.

ILLUSIONIST^248
09-18-2013, 04:04 PM
I'm glad Hawk stood away from my post about being 1/2 players to achieve such a great peak.

Hawkeye15
09-18-2013, 04:37 PM
I'm glad Hawk stood away from my post about being 1/2 players to achieve such a great peak.

no, 1/2 players to score 35 a game. Kobe's volume scoring has never been an issue, he has always scored points. How many players have gone for 26-6-6 or better for 9 seasons by age 30? Basically, we can pull any stat to make our case, which is why I blew right over your attempted point.

Hawkeye15
09-18-2013, 04:42 PM
You could get the impression from the number of posts about it that this is just one more thread that has been derailed into a debate about Kobe's greatness. BUT, the quality of the comments, AND the "give" from earlier-hardened positions has, imo, made it worth it. (Plus I want to thank the two guys who posted the links to those "Comments on Kobe Bryant" (pts 1,2,3); I had NOT seen those before and DO appreciate this.)

However, can we get back to the OP?
Particularly, I'd love to hear people's opinions about any and everybody who was clearly NOT in the All-Time Top 25. For example: Who were the long-term most consistent players, the players that had, say, 15 years of almost equal play? (I know Duncan is clearly an All-Time best but I just want to mention him AS AN EXAMPLE OF CONSISTENCY. Over the last 15 years, maybe he had two bad years because of knee-problems; take them out of the equation, and, it seems to me, you have remarkable consistency; where his best years were NOT WAY BETTER than his weakest ones.) So, which non Top 25 ers, are most similar to that?

welcome to PSD, where everything eventually turns into a thread about LeBron or Kobe.

to answer your question:
Kevin Willis
Dikembe Mutombo
Andre Miller
Ray Allen
Cliff Robinson
Robert Parish
Charles Oakley
Mark Jackson
Otis Thorpe
Horace Grant
Alex English
Antwan Jamison
Vince Carter

for example are all players who played at their respective high level for a very long time, but are nowhere near top 25 players.

N3TS
09-18-2013, 04:57 PM
Dirk, Kobe, Duncan, Nash, Pierce...Granted they aren't exactly what they were in the prime of their careers, but for the most part they have been playing at a high level throughout the later parts of each of their respective careers.

amos1er
09-18-2013, 09:55 PM
post 67 laughs at you.

I think everyone who read his original comment laughed at him.

flea
09-18-2013, 10:02 PM
Lakers fans keeps trolling and baiting (and the same 2, amoser and illusionist) but neither has told me a single year in which Kobe was the best in the league. Keep trolling though, Kobe-philes.

amos1er
09-18-2013, 10:14 PM
I do not hate Kobe, Kobe-phile. Did you not see that part of my post? I also never said his consistency or durability had anything to do with longevity. In fact, I said Kobe isn't quite ready for this discussion yet because he doesn't stack up against guys who played longer than him. It's not Kobe's fault, he's still relatively young.

Relatively young??? Lol He is top 14 all time in minutes played and top 4 on the All-time scoring list. Another epic fail. :facepalm:


Finally, it pretty much is a fact that Kobe was never the best player in the league. It's unfortunate for him and sometimes just how things work out in the NBA. It also doesn't help him that good bigs are always better than good wings, with all else being equal. This is why Michael is remarkable.

Is it a fact now??? Lol can you prove this fact? Do you actually know the difference between opinion and a proven fact? There are many credible experts who will disagree with this supposed "fact" you have claimed to produce. In fact (no pun intended) there are more credible experts who disagree with you than who agree with you. Would love to see you attempt to prove this "fact". Until then... Yet another epic fail.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anoqbgOZrEg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxYZAgKRtM8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtGJSiMqpWk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liKW_fyV-UQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sTlxfIEx2I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyhX2YMgNvs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21yiGz3Vgrw

Your move.

flea
09-18-2013, 10:15 PM
Youtube videos are not arguments, and there's no way I'm watching those.

amos1er
09-18-2013, 10:18 PM
Youtube videos are not arguments, and there's no way I'm watching those.

Still waiting for that "proof".

amos1er
09-18-2013, 10:37 PM
Lakers fans keeps trolling and baiting (and the same 2, amoser and illusionist) but neither has told me a single year in which Kobe was the best in the league. Keep trolling though, Kobe-philes.

I believe Kobe was best 2005-2010. Again, it is my opinion and one that happens to be shared my a vast majority of basketball experts. I don't falsely claim my opinion to be fact like you do. Thats the difference. You have not one shed of evidence other than your own opinion to substantiate this rubbish you are spouting. Only to keep repeating the same nonsense over and over like if you say it enough times it will become true.

Hawkeye15
09-18-2013, 11:30 PM
you automatically lose an argument when you point to others views or post videos to make your point.

Pablonovi
09-19-2013, 12:28 AM
welcome to PSD, where everything eventually turns into a thread about LeBron or Kobe.

to answer your question:
Kevin Willis
Dikembe Mutombo
Andre Miller
Ray Allen
Cliff Robinson
Robert Parish
Charles Oakley
Mark Jackson
Otis Thorpe
Horace Grant
Alex English
Antwan Jamison
Vince Carter

for example are all players who played at their respective high level for a very long time, but are nowhere near top 25 players.

Hey Hawk,
Earlier today, I spent a sizeable chunk of hours going over stats and my previous thinking.
I was shocked at all of these guys' consistency.

You hardly if ever see these guys being talked about that much, especially vis--vis consistency; but they HAD it.

Well, it's certainly NOT the first time for you, but ...
Your list here is damned near perfect.

Pablonovi
09-19-2013, 12:33 AM
I believe Kobe was best 2005-2010. Again, it is my opinion and one that happens to be shared my a vast majority of basketball experts. I don't falsely claim my opinion to be fact like you do. Thats the difference. You have not one shed of evidence other than your own opinion to substantiate this rubbish you are spouting. Only to keep repeating the same nonsense over and over like if you say it enough times it will become true.

Hey amos1er,
I definitely think a serious case can be made that both:
a) Kobe was NOT far and away THE #1 player in any one year; and yet
b) Kobe WAS the #1 player for that 5 year stretch (and if not, then #1b);

Combine this with his 15 Great Years (already) and you've got an All-Time GOAT Top-Ten Guy.

I haven't seen any experts who have Kobe outside the Top 10; most have him 5-8. I "can live" with that.

I'm wondering, is anybody in this thread arguing strongly that Kobe is NOT Top 10 All-Time? If not, then, maybe we're spending a lot more time on this Kobe question (again) then it merits; seeing as the differences would NOT be that great.

FlashBolt
09-19-2013, 12:57 AM
I am appalled by the amount of people suggesting that durability has nothing to do with longevity. Are you trolling? Your career will last longer if your durability is stronger than others. Look at Oden. Horrific durability, not a very long career. Durability doesn't mean longevity, but it sure as hell has a lot to do with it. Back to the question, I'm surprised no one said Ray Allen. Dude is right up there with the best. Kobe, though is easily the answer. I like to take into account of the numbers Kobe puts out there day and night since his rookie season. I don't think anyone has been more consistent for such a long period of time. Even at age 35, he was just amazing. Sorry, you can detest him but Kobe's longevity and durability is wolverine status.

amos1er
09-19-2013, 03:04 AM
you automatically lose an argument when you point to others views or post videos to make your point.

What about stating your own opinion as fact?

amos1er
09-19-2013, 03:08 AM
I am appalled by the amount of people suggesting that durability has nothing to do with longevity. Are you trolling? Your career will last longer if your durability is stronger than others. Look at Oden. Horrific durability, not a very long career. Durability doesn't mean longevity, but it sure as hell has a lot to do with it. Back to the question, I'm surprised no one said Ray Allen. Dude is right up there with the best. Kobe, though is easily the answer. I like to take into account of the numbers Kobe puts out there day and night since his rookie season. I don't think anyone has been more consistent for such a long period of time. Even at age 35, he was just amazing. Sorry, you can detest him but Kobe's longevity and durability is wolverine status.

While I agree with most of this, I will say that Kobe is not super durable. He has had some terrible injuries along the way. He just had the mental toughness to play through them and overcome adversity. Dude had two of his fingers on his shooting hand taped during his first championship without Shaq. He learned how to shoot effectively without the use of two fingers on his shooting hand. The wounds never healed, he just found a way around it.

amos1er
09-19-2013, 03:11 AM
Hey amos1er,
I definitely think a serious case can be made that both:
a) Kobe was NOT far and away THE #1 player in any one year; and yet
b) Kobe WAS the #1 player for that 5 year stretch (and if not, then #1b);

Combine this with his 15 Great Years (already) and you've got an All-Time GOAT Top-Ten Guy.

I haven't seen any experts who have Kobe outside the Top 10; most have him 5-8. I "can live" with that.

I'm wondering, is anybody in this thread arguing strongly that Kobe is NOT Top 10 All-Time? If not, then, maybe we're spending a lot more time on this Kobe question (again) then it merits; seeing as the differences would NOT be that great.

Totally agree. Kobe was not far and away the best during 2005-2010, though the years I feel he has the strongest case are 2006, 2007, and 2008. In 2009 and 2010 it was between him and Lebron. Though I give Kobe the edge due to experience and the fact that he was the better closer at the time. Also, his defense was still top tier, while Lebron was just starting to assert himself as a defensively dominant player.

SPURSFAN1
09-20-2013, 12:01 AM
tim duncan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HRMl8W3djQ

Durant is hype
09-20-2013, 01:10 AM
Longevity is basically how long you've been a star,and how long you played at a above average rate imo.

Thus any list with the greatest players(you guys know them, I don't need to list them) all had long longevity. If I had to pick a longevity superstar then I would go with John Stockton.

Here's John Stockton's last season compared to Steve Nash first MVP season.

Player Season Age G GS MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT%ORBDRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
Steve Nash 2004-05 30 75 75 2573 6.0 12.0 .502 1.3 3.1 .431 3.0 3.3 .887 0.8 2.7 3.5 12.0 1.0 0.1 3.4 1.9 16.3
John Stockton 2002-03 40 82 82 2275 4.9 10.1 .483 0.5 1.3 .363 3.8 4.5 .826 0.8 2.4 3.2 10.0 2.2 0.3 2.9 2.9 14.0

Durant is hype
09-20-2013, 01:13 AM
welcome to PSD, where everything eventually turns into a thread about LeBron or Kobe.

to answer your question:
Kevin Willis
Dikembe Mutombo
Andre Miller
Ray Allen
Cliff Robinson
Robert Parish
Charles Oakley
Mark Jackson
Otis Thorpe
Horace Grant
Alex English
Antwan Jamison
Vince Carter

for example are all players who played at their respective high level for a very long time, but are nowhere near top 25 players.

I don't agree with those two,other than that great list!

FlashBolt
09-20-2013, 01:21 AM
While I agree with most of this, I will say that Kobe is not super durable. He has had some terrible injuries along the way. He just had the mental toughness to play through them and overcome adversity. Dude had two of his fingers on his shooting hand taped during his first championship without Shaq. He learned how to shoot effectively without the use of two fingers on his shooting hand. The wounds never healed, he just found a way around it.

Well, he is super durable. He's 35 and still putting up elite numbers. If that's not durable, what is? Not to mention he was playing 42 MPG+ in certain stints of the season. I must also say, Kobe is one of my favorite players. He's consistently been a great player for such a long period of time. No one can ignore his accomplishments and feats, he's a top 5 player imo. However, he was not the best player from 2005-2010. LJ, in my opinion, has been the best player in the NBA since 2007. Give or take, you can argue a few years but considering the circumstances presented to him with that team, I also can't ignore it. Actually, Wade might've been the best player in 08-09. It was honestly one of the most complete seasons from a guard, ever. Again, it's my opinion and I respect yours just as much.

flea
09-20-2013, 12:25 PM
Obviously Kobe has accomplished a lot. But so has Duncan, and nobody is touting him on here. 1 season and 4000 minutes short of Kobe and he played a full college career. That's more impressive longevity at this point.

FlashBolt
09-20-2013, 12:56 PM
Obviously Kobe has accomplished a lot. But so has Duncan, and nobody is touting him on here. 1 season and 4000 minutes short of Kobe and he played a full college career. That's more impressive longevity at this point.

But the OP never mentioned college and specifically stated in the NBA. Also, Kobe has to do far more for his team than Duncan. Duncan doesn't dominate the usage like Kobe does.

kdspurman
09-20-2013, 12:58 PM
Obviously Kobe has accomplished a lot. But so has Duncan, and nobody is touting him on here. 1 season and 4000 minutes short of Kobe and he played a full college career. That's more impressive longevity at this point.

It's definitely impressive, especially for a big man. He had a couple down years with the knee injury, but he's found ways to stay in great shape, dropping weight, changing his diet, etc... that knee brace he wears has made a huge difference as well.

There's a lot of mileage on his body, so as a big man who plays as great as he does on both ends of the court, it's very impressive. and the way he plays the game, he could be effective for several more years if he choose to.

kdspurman
09-20-2013, 01:02 PM
But the OP never mentioned college and specifically stated in the NBA. Also, Kobe has to do far more for his team than Duncan. Duncan doesn't dominate the usage like Kobe does.

Kobe has to do more offensively, but Duncan is still the defensive anchor for that team. The amount of shots he blocks/changes is very impressive at 37 years of age. I wouldn't quite say Kobe has to do far more, but I guess it's debatable.

It's tough to compare as they play different positions, but Duncan's relied heavily on the defensive end, and the #'s reflect that when he's on the bench.

I just know both guys are doing great things at their age, for their respective teams.

FlashBolt
09-20-2013, 01:17 PM
But the OP never mentioned college and specifically stated in the NBA. Also, Kobe has to do far more for his team than Duncan. Duncan doesn't dominate the usage like Kobe does.

Kobe has to do more offensively, but Duncan is still the defensive anchor for that team. The amount of shots he blocks/changes is very impressive at 37 years of age. I wouldn't quite say Kobe has to do far more, but I guess it's debatable.

It's tough to compare as they play different positions, but Duncan's relied heavily on the defensive end, and the #'s reflect that when he's on the bench.

I just know both guys are doing great things at their age, for their respective teams.

Yes, but Duncan's defense is based off the paint whereas Kobe has to defend the perimeter and chase guards around. Centers and power forward have the longest careers.

kdspurman
09-20-2013, 01:28 PM
Yes, but Duncan's defense is based off the paint whereas Kobe has to defend the perimeter and chase guards around. Centers and power forward have the longest careers.

Based off the paint as well as P&R defense. I don't know if Centers & PF's have longer careers, I always thought the big guys had a harder time being effective for a long time due to their size, but that's just kind of an assumption.

I don't disagree that defending the perimeter is a daunting task, I was simply saying I don't know if Kobe has to do far more. I think both do a ton for their teams, just in different roles.

FlashBolt
09-20-2013, 01:46 PM
Yes, but Duncan's defense is based off the paint whereas Kobe has to defend the perimeter and chase guards around. Centers and power forward have the longest careers.

Based off the paint as well as P&R defense. I don't know if Centers & PF's have longer careers, I always thought the big guys had a harder time being effective for a long time due to their size, but that's just kind of an assumption.

I don't disagree that defending the perimeter is a daunting task, I was simply saying I don't know if Kobe has to do far more. I think both do a ton for their teams, just in different roles.

Agreed, I would say it's fair to say they both have their fair share of longevity. It's just hitting me in the head that once these two retire, it's going to be a sad day for the NBA. Kobe, Duncan, KG, Nowitzki, Pierce, Nash, and Allen were all monumental pieces to that era.

DreamShaker
09-20-2013, 01:54 PM
Agreed, I would say it's fair to say they both have their fair share of longevity. It's just hitting me in the head that once these two retire, it's going to be a sad day for the NBA. Kobe, Duncan, KG, Nowitzki, Pierce, Nash, and Allen were all monumental pieces to that era.

For real. And Sheed, Grant Hill, T-Mac, Jason Kidd, and Iverson just all officially retired. It's getting thin with players still left from that era.

kdspurman
09-20-2013, 02:26 PM
Agreed, I would say it's fair to say they both have their fair share of longevity. It's just hitting me in the head that once these two retire, it's going to be a sad day for the NBA. Kobe, Duncan, KG, Nowitzki, Pierce, Nash, and Allen were all monumental pieces to that era.

Exactly... I try to just enjoy the last few years of it man, those guys have given a ton of great games/memories. I mean I know I will still watch the game of course, but it's going to be very different not seeing those guys on the court anymore.

Pablonovi
09-20-2013, 09:01 PM
Isn't it impressive how awesome for how long AND simultaneously these guys have been? Great group.

Tony_Starks
09-20-2013, 10:02 PM
To me it's Kobe, Kareem then everybody else. Longevity is one thing but to still be one of the best players in the game in your mid to late 30s is ridiculous.

Had one of his best seasons ever last year, not to mention all NBA first team....

Pablonovi
09-21-2013, 12:11 AM
To me it's Kobe, Kareem then everybody else. Longevity is one thing but to still be one of the best players in the game in your mid to late 30s is ridiculous.

Had one of his best seasons ever last year, not to mention all NBA first team....

Hey Tony_Starks,
"You beat me to the punch!".

A couple of days ago I downloaded a chart of the history of the All-NBA Teams. I've been spending every spare minute "number crunching". ...

THE BIGGEST SURPRISE? :

TOP 2 GUYS ON THE ALL-NBA TEAMS List:
Kobe 15 years (11 First Team = tied for most ever; 2 Second Team, 2 Third Team) *
KAJ 15 years (10 First Team; 5 Second Team) *

Tied for 3rd Place are:
Karl Malone 14 years
Tim Duncan 14 years

No one qualified 13 years.

The rest of the list ... later.

* Kobe "wins the tie-breaker" because he had more 1st Team years.

** Out of KAJ's first 17 years, he only didn't make it 2 times (1975 and 1982). (Additionally, his rookie year he was Rookie Of The Year. In 1982, KAJ did NOT make it; but according to Sporting News he should have; i.e., he made their 2nd Team. I agree with them.

N.B. My plan was to finish processing all their info and then presenting a complete list/analysis to PSD-NBA. I'm almost done; but I thought I should respond to your post here immediately.

One more thing I will say for now, I have always believed, for a number of reasons, that the All-NBA Teams were more representative of the actual situation than the MVPs. Now that I am analyzing the overall results, I believe much more strongly that this is true.

Keep in mind that this does/can NOT answer the GOAT question because it does NOT take into account such things as PEAK and dominance; but it DOES contribute very important/useful information towards such a GOAT analysis.

P.S. Everybody knows that Kobe's first two years, when he wasn't even a starter, were NOT great. Subsequent to those two, he has made the All-NBA Team all 15 years in a row - greatest streak ever by far. It would appear that those voters (just like the MVP voters) penalized him for his OFF COURT legal-problems; he only made All-NBA 3rd Team that year.

MTar786
09-22-2013, 01:41 AM
kobe malone and kareem are leaps and bounds above everyone else when it coms to longevity.. and its not even close

arlubas
09-23-2013, 07:33 AM
A.C. Green

PhillyFaninLA
09-23-2013, 08:07 AM
Kaj,Kobe,Nash,Duncan,Jordan,Parish,Stockton,Miller on top of my mind.
PS: please,don't put Lebron at least in this list. He was born in 1984...

Isn't this his 10th or 11th year?

PhillyFaninLA
09-23-2013, 08:10 AM
Its hilarious how little the guy did to stay in the league. No shot, never gave a **** what he ate and still lasted forever. Why come people label superstars like Tmac or Vince as wastes of talent and not guys who tried significantly less.

You have to have the talent to waste....those guys could have been all time guys and Andre Miller doing everything perfect would only be pretty good.