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View Full Version : 2013 Mock Offseason Playoffs FINALS: 1 LA Lakers vs. 2 Chicago Bulls



PatsSoxKnicks
09-10-2013, 01:03 AM
Every summer, PSD holds a game which mocks that year's NBA offseason. This year, users from the site took the reigns of NBA franchises and had to utilize their skills via draft, trades, and free agency to improve their teams. At the end of the game, GMs voted on how they believed the regular season of this game would shake up. These are the playoffs of PSD's 2013 NBA Mock Offseason.

Please take the time to consider each line up, the match-up itself, and vote on which team you believe would win in a seven game series.

The Lakers have homecourt advantage.

Lakers Depth Chart:

Kyrie Irving (38) / Devin Harris (10)
Kevin Martin (35) / Devin Harris (9) / Anthony Morrow (4)
Chandler Parsons (36) / Gerald Wallace (8) / Jae Crowder (4)
Dirk Nowitzki (36) / Terrence Jones (6) /Jae Crowder (6) / Lamar Odom
Dwight Howard (38) / Ian Mahinmi (10) / Anthony Randolph

Bulls Depth Chart:

PG: Deron Williams (38) l JJ Barea (10) l Peyton Siva
SG: Thabo Sefolosha (34) l JJ Barea (14)/ Landry Fields
SF: Kawhi Leonard (40) l Landry Fields (8) l Teletovic
PF: Al Horford (30) l Brandon Bass (18) l
C: Tim Duncan (35) l Al Horford (10) l Brandon Bass (3) /Aaron Gray

Lakers Write-up:



Bulls @ Lakers


You know some times these write ups can be boring. I'm going to tell you the Lakers are better. The three Bulls GM's are going to tell you the Bulls are better. I'm a geek and I love basketball, I love these games, and I love arguing in general so please bear with us. Let's have some fun though this is the NBA finals. And how often do you get to be a part of the NBA finals? I'm sitting on my deck this Sunday evening, enjoying the hell out of myself thinking about this matchup and having a couple of drinks. If you'll indulge me:

The 2013-14 NBA season is coming to a close. After a bizarre offseason which saw the Miami big 3 disband, Kobe Bryant leave LA, The New York Knicks land Chris Paul, and the San Antonio Spurs be suspended by the leagues head office; we've reached the pinnacle of basketball moments; welcome to the NBA finals. The Chicago Bulls have reached the NBA finals for the first time since the departure of the chose one. The Los Angeles Lakers are in a familiar position chasing their 17th championship. The Staples center is sold out. The lights have been dimmed and 18,000 ecstatic fans are silent as Michael Jordan and Magic Johnson are out at center court announcing the starting line ups. The past week has been insane they're talking about Dirk and Duncan long time rivals and Texas gems now meeting at the end of their careers in the NBA finals. They're talking about how once almost teammates Dwight Howard and Deron Williams will do battle for their chance to hoist their first Larry O'Brien respectively. Chandler Parsons and Kawhi Leonard both have been praised as elite role players all season and budding all stars but who is going to make their presence felt on the basketballs biggest stage? The gamblers are at an impasse with nearly identical odds on the East's best Bulls who clawed and battled through superior talent to reach the plateau; and the Lakers who went rather unscathed disassembling a west that is no longer best. Without further adieu the pre show semantics are over. We're going to roll to commercial and when we get back will go live with the 2014 NBA finals tip off.

Reason 1 Lakers win this series: We have home court advantage. Not sure how much of an advantage it is but JordansBulls does. So hopefully he comes in and reinforces it.

Reason 2 Lakers win this series: Fatigue. The Bulls had multiple overtime games, and a hard fought 7 game series with the Knicks. They fought a tough Pacers team that grinded every night hard against their front court. Big Roy Hibbert gave Timmy D absolutely all he could handle. Kawhi Leonard spent the last two series chasing Carmelo Anthony and Paul George. We stomped are way through the Western Conference and have been planning for the finals since day 1 of this season.

Reason 3 Lakers win this series: Their defense will not slow us down more than ours will theirs. The Bulls key argument and best chance at winning this series is reliant on you believing that their defense is better than our defense by a larger margin than our offense is better than their offense. However that's just not true. We all know Dwight is the premiere defensive anchor in this league. We're talking about a player whose ability to own the key and alter shots, collect rebounds has earned him 3 defensive players of the year. We're talking about a guy whose defensive presence is so significantly felt, teams with Courtney Lee, Rashard Lewis, Jameer Nelson, and Hedo Turkoglu have made waves in the NBA playoffs. So will just leave it at that. Chances are they are going to tell you that Horford and Duncan combined are a better defensive back court than Dirk and Dwight but don't believe it for a second. Dirks defensive short comings have been overdone for years. He is a solid defender and there is no better back court companion for him in the world. The Bulls might try to trick you saying Tim Duncan was better on both ends last year. Well keep in mind Dwight had some back injuries that at this point are no longer a factor. And lol it's just not true.



Power Forward:
Al Horford; .84 PPP allowed (119), 1.3 defensive RAPM.
Dirk Nowitzki; .8 PPP allowed (61), 1.3 defensive RAPM.
Center:
Tim Duncan; .88 PPP allowed (226), 6.3 defensive RAPM.
Dwight Howard; .74 PPP allowed (20), 6.3 defensive RAPM.
I see no clear disadvantage for us defensively in the front court. We are going to be the better defense protecting the paint and that's where a strong defense sprouts from not the perimeter which is essentially a first line of defense. Keep in mind Duncan is another year older in this. And Dwight is actually healthy. I'd imagine these numbers would be even further in my favor by the end of next season. Do the Bulls have a better defensive perimeter sure. But let's be honest they're not going to bury from deep no matter what they say. Kawhi Leonard, and Thabo Sefolosha aren't volume scorers. Thabo averaged 7 points last season. Can he hit the occasional open 3 pointer? Sure but he sure as hell isn't going to bury us. Kawhi averaged 12 points a game and is slightly more capable but he's basically in a dog fight with Parsons. Parsons is the better and more dangerous offensive player but Kawhi is better on defense that matchup is more or less a wash. Kawhi isn't going to be the x-factor in this series like he may have been against Knicks or Pacers. They're going to say that Deron is better than Kyrie but in a career comparison heads up they've essentially been awash with Kyrie being slightly more efficient. And that's with Kyrie being young inexperienced, and having the significantly worse team. Kyrie is now another year older, he's gotten better, he has the best team he's ever played with and he's already won 3 playoff series as the primary ball handler in LA. LA, yes Los Angeles one of the toughest teams to play for. So don't let them try to tell you the pressure would get to Kyrie. Essentially I'm not seeing where they expose us defensively. I don't see how they're going to get the advantage offensively either when essentially are 3 top options are going to out produce their counterparts. While my team is not perfect defensively and I admit that this isn't a great team to take advantage of my weaknesses. A team like the Warriors in real life with volume shooters on the perimeter would be a tougher type of offensive basketball for us to adjust too.

Reason 4 Lakers win this series: This offense would be phenomenal, are spacing would make our team near impossible to counter. We'd score in bunches, we'd score from inside, we'd score from outside. We have the two best arguably 3 best closers in the series if it comes to a close game. Let's look at what they will be facing former finals MVP Dirk Nowitzki. http://stats.nba.com/playerShotchart.html?PlayerID=1717&display-mode=distribution You can't go wrong with Dirk his defensive numbers are damn good now and you can't leave him anywhere. Him and Dwight are so damn perfect. Horford and Duncan are both going to be on their own. Duncan is going up against the much bigger, younger, Dwight Howard on the block. Horford is going to be chasing Dirk literally all over the map. Dirk was the 9th overall scorer in post up situations based off of synergy, and the 35th best scorer as a spot up shooter. So Horford can't leave him open and he can't give him any position down low. For those who doubted Dirk last season he is still incredibly lethal. The difference between us and last year's Mavs is he isn't going to have to carry us single handily. Kyrie Irving is going to be a problem for the Bulls plain and simple. Who even was the 2nd best offensive player on the Cavs last year? Dion Waiters? Kyrie was literally the only player opposing teams had to plan for and he was still 8th in the league for isolation scoring. Now Kyrie has two elite shooters at the wings. Unlike the Bulls wings we're talking about guys who have been options for their teams and actually been incorporated into their teams offensive schemes. Kyrie is most likely going to beat anyone one on one. You can't back off him the guy shoots 39% from deep. You can't double him. Honestly who are you going to leave open? Chandler Parsons who shot .385 from deep on 6 attempts a contest? Or Kevin Martin who is even more lethal from behind the perimeter shooting .426 from long range again on over 6 attempts. The same goes for doubling Dirk or Dwight you're asking for a whooping. Honestly the only guy playing major minutes on this team without range is Dwight and for all the crap he took last season his .95 PPP came while hurt. He's now healthy and the now another year older Duncan only put up .96 PPP last year. . . The Bulls will struggle to match our production, no ifs ends or buts about it.


Bulls Write-up:


PG: This is a matchup we feel will play a big role in the series and one we feel we have an advantage in. Everyone talks about how “efficient” Kyrie Irving is when Deron Williams was actually more efficient than he was last year. Kyrie spotted a .553 TS% while Deron Williams put up a TS% of .574. Deron Williams also had 5.1 Offensive RAPM while Kyrie Irving spotted a 3.0 offensive RAPM. Deron spotted 9.1 offensive win shares while Kyrie only put up 4.0 offensive win shares. These are the type of numbers that Deron was putting up back in his Utah Jazz days and with efficient 3 point shooters and with both of our bigs being able to run the pick and roll efficiently we see no reason why he can’t keep his same output or even improve upon it. Now neither of these players is very good defensively, but we feel that Deron has an offensive edge and will do more damage than Kyrie will. Another thing to take into account is how Kyrie Irving will produce in the playoffs. Now while it is not his fault that his teams haven’t gotten into the playoffs before, the lack of experience and amount of experience Deron has in the playoffs we feel will play into this. Deron in this years playoffs put up 20.6 PPG on .572 TS% which is a minimal drop off from the regular season. Also with the amount of offensive plays we can run with the Iso and Pick and Roll we have given ourselves the advantage at PG.

With Kyrie's lack of big game exposure, health concerns and being outplayed by Deron last year who was just insane in the second half, we love the massive edge we have here.


SG: This is another interesting matchup of offense vs. Defense here in Kevin Martin and Thabo. Thabo is an extremely efficient player on the offensive end who will likely be used in 3 point spot up situations. Last year Thabo shot 42% from deep and had a TS% of .617. Now while he won’t be a main piece in our offense, he is somebody that can be counted to make 3’s when needed and at an efficient rate. Now, where he is at his best is on the defensive end. Thabo had 3.1 Defensive Win Shares , and a 2.0 defensive RAPM. On a team with Kyrie Irving, Kevin Martin will likely be used as a spot up shooter, and last year he only had 246 FT attempts, showing that he has lost some of his aggression and settles for the jump shot a bit more. With a defender like Thabo on him we feel that we can limit Martin’s efficiency while Martin will have a harder time keeping Thabo from being efficient with his -2.4 Defensive RAPM and 107 Defensive Rating..

Keep in mind to K-mart is going to have the same role on this Lakers squad that he had last year on the Thunder except he doesn't have a defensive SG backing him up, which is going to terribly hurt him. Kevin Martin is also a guy who's minutes having been decreasing the last 5 years and that's because he's not the same guy he once was. Doesn't get to the line as much, isn't as much of a play maker and has a limited role offensively. We are more than happy with matching Thabo on him defensively.

We on the other hand will be using Thabo offensively for his spot up shooting skills and this is one of Martins weaknesses. He ranks 165th guarding spot up shooters giving up 0.96 PPP and opponents shot 39% vs him from behind the arc. This goes hand in hand with Thabo's 41% from behind the arc last year. He will get looks from this spot because of all the penetrating and help defense they'll need when Deron gets by Kyrie often.



PF Battle: Horford vs Dirk
This match up is a really interesting match up and although people will give Dirk a big advantage, we strongly disagree with that notion. Horford is not only going to make Dirk work on the defensive end but is more than capable of keeping up with him defensively.

We admit Dirk will get his, but the kicker is so will Horford. Horford doesn't have the 3 point range that Dirk has, but he's an elite shooter from the area's within.
Horford spends most his time on offense being the roll man in the pick-and-roll; that makes up 20.1 percent of his possessions. He scores 1.3 PPP as the roll man, good for 46th-best in the league, according to Synergy. And while some of those rolls end in dunks or layups, plenty of them end in wide-open jumpers. (85.8 percent of his shots from 16-23 feet were assisted.)



Center battle: Duncan vs Dwight Howard

Going to keep this simple. Duncan simply was a beast this past year, whether it was defensively or being sound offensively what wasn't this guy doing?
Duncan is coming of a year in which he practically carried that Spurs team to a title and was having his way in the finals, whether it was seeing doubles, being guarded by Dwight himself and even Marc Gasol, two of the best defensive centers in the league. Duncan was just on a tear.

Dwight's main offensive game is based on alley's, dominating the glass and post ups that aren't even refined. So how is he going to generate offense, against our amazing defensive core. Well he won't be beasting on the boards because we have a well rounded rebounding team with Kawhi, Duncan and Horford all there to fight for the boards. So what next?

Dwight ranks 121st in post up offense while DUncan ranked 67th in post up defense. So there goes that, so basically Lakers are going to need the others to step up and we like our chances defensively against the other match ups based of our write up.

The whole playoffs the Lakers have depended on teams doubling Dwight and setting up his shooters, but guess what? We won't need to double him and we can play everyone else straight up, so this team offensively against our defensive team is going to struggle to dominate the game like they have against every team they've faced thus far.

Since this is the finals of the mock, were just going to leave you guys with this. Duncan not only mentally but statistically dominated D-12 in their playoff match.

Howard played a whopping 31 minutes. Averaged 17/10 with 4 turnovers a game. Why were his minutes so low?? Because he got into foul trouble a lot and expect a whole lot of the same here. With Mahimi as their main backup C this won't serve them well because the Lakers as a whole are depending on Dwight to be the key cog of their defense, take him out and your left with below average defense.
You won't have this problem with us because if Duncan gets into foul trouble we can just plug Horford at C to. We have amazing flexibility with our team and can use it to our advantage so everyone won't be worn down.

Lakers keep suggesting Dwight is healthy, but are they aware back problems for a big man never just "goes away" like they keep suggesting. Also how true is this statement? We have nothing to base this of until we see him again next season to judge if he's truly healthy, so for now we take last year's results, which we usually do anyways and we love the edge we have.


This position is supposed to be the Lakers specialty. But based on last season, the playoffs and the h2h domination in the playoffs, we have an advantage at this match up.
One last key point, Duncan improved significantly in his FT shooting, meanwhile Dwight is still an abomination at that aspect of his game and he'll cost them a few possessions because of it and for a team that's going to need every single point it can get against our squad, this will be crucial.





Now regarding the benches. We'll admit, to the voter both benches aren't anything special and were not going to try to feed crap.
But JJ Barea will be really useful for us for 2 main reasons. He is a nice energy spark that is instant offense and an actual 6th man, that was productive for the Mavs in the finals the year they played the Heat. The Lakers don't have an instant offense of the bench and even though people will downplay this it is significant. Barea is more than capable of holding down the fort when Deron and Thabo are off the floor offensively for us and still setting up guys like Kawhi, Horford and Duncan.


In conclusion, we like to start of by saying remember the good old saying "defense wins championships". We believe in this match-up that saying will hold up strong because not only are we significantly better than them defensively, we have the experience, the more battle tested team and our offense has the pieces needed to outscore them game in and game out. With us having the advantage at the position where the Lakers best player plays and him backing those claims up from the recent playoffs, we love our chances and expect us to win this series.

Ebbs
09-10-2013, 01:14 AM
Congrats to the Bulls for reaching the finals.

But I think the Lakers offense is going to rain hell in the finals.

Ebbs
09-10-2013, 02:24 AM
Just an added note. Last year was a weird year for Howard. He didn't mesh with Kobe he was hurt etc. . .

But he's healthy in this game and Kobe is nowhere in sight.

His career playoff numbers are astounding. Those are on teams with far less to work with as well. He clearly isn't lacking motivation anymore because in this game he's in the finals.

Career post season numbers.:


Stats:
PPG: 19.7
RPG: 14.1
BPG: 2.7
PER: 23.4
WS/48: .189

That's including the Lakers run. And that's being the defenses only real focus. He now can't be doubled because every single player in the starting 5 is an above average scorer at their position. They're also efficient I don't have a single chucker to disrupt my offense.

It also might sound silly but fatigue is likely going to play a factor in this series. Tim Duncan is another year older. He has been playing 38 minutes per a game this post season. And the unanimous consensus is that the Bulls worked harder and played more games than the Lakers thus far. He is going to have a hell of a time keeping up with a healthy, and motivated Dwight.

If they put Horford on him that will likely go badly. Dwight last time in Orlando against the Hawks who were the superior team feasted on Horford.


27 PPG, 15.5 RPG, 63% from the field.

Horford clearly hasn't slown him down much in the past.

In 10 career playoffs head to head:


Horford: 12.1 PPG, 9.1 RPG, .422 FG%
Howard: 24.6 PPG, 14.6 RPG, .690 FG%

Also I already mentioned fatigue maybe playing a factor for Timmy. Is he going to go chase Dirk around outside the key where he's most useful.

I think a down year in LA pushed Dwight down the totem poll for a lot of people but let's be real until last year their was a valid argument on who was more impactful at both ends him or LeBron. In a new situation where Dwight actually has help all around him, their is clear chemistry, and he's healthy he is hands down the best player in this series.

Eagles4Lyfe
09-10-2013, 05:21 AM
Lol man couldnt wait until I got home to fix our write up and send it in.

Bear with us guys we actually are serious about this matchup and DO have a write up that we couldnt send due to bad circumstances but ill have one by afternoon once I get home.

Killerjug
09-10-2013, 07:59 AM
PG: This is a matchup we feel will play a big role in the series and one we feel we have an advantage in. Everyone talks about how “efficient” Kyrie Irving is when Deron Williams was actually more efficient than he was last year. Kyrie spotted a .553 TS% while Deron Williams put up a TS% of .574. Deron Williams also had 5.1 Offensive RAPM while Kyrie Irving spotted a 3.0 offensive RAPM. Deron spotted 9.1 offensive win shares while Kyrie only put up 4.0 offensive win shares. These are the type of numbers that Deron was putting up back in his Utah Jazz days and with efficient 3 point shooters and with both of our bigs being able to run the pick and roll efficiently we see no reason why he can’t keep his same output or even improve upon it. Now neither of these players is very good defensively, but we feel that Deron has an offensive edge and will do more damage than Kyrie will. Another thing to take into account is how Kyrie Irving will produce in the playoffs. Now while it is not his fault that his teams haven’t gotten into the playoffs before, the lack of experience and amount of experience Deron has in the playoffs we feel will play into this. Deron in this years playoffs put up 20.6 PPG on .572 TS% which is a minimal drop off from the regular season. Also with the amount of offensive plays we can run with the Iso and Pick and Roll we have given ourselves the advantage at PG
SG: This is another interesting matchup of offense vs. Defense here in Kevin Martin and Thabo. Thabo is an extremely efficient player on the offensive end who will likely be used in 3 point spot up situations. Last year Thabo shot 42% from deep and had a TS% of .617. Now while he won’t be a main piece in our offense, he is somebody that can be counted to make 3’s when needed and at an efficient rate. Now, where he is at his best is on the defensive end. Thabo had 3.1 Defensive Win Shares , and a 2.0 defensive RAPM. On a team with Kyrie Irving, Kevin Martin will likely be used as a spot up shooter, and last year he only had 246 FT attempts, showing that he has lost some of his aggression and settles for the jump shot a bit more. With a defender like Thabo on him we feel that we can limit Martin’s efficiency while Martin will have a harder time keeping Thabo from being efficient with his -2.4 Defensive RAPM and 107 Defensive Rating

Part of the Writeup

Killerjug
09-10-2013, 08:29 AM
please let eagles finish the write up before voting as we were told we had another day to finish the write up thanks!

Mile High Champ
09-10-2013, 10:25 AM
Waiting to hear out the Bulls as requested. Great series.

Sadds The Gr8
09-10-2013, 10:33 AM
this is the most equal final i can remember in these games.

Ebbs
09-10-2013, 12:43 PM
Every GM basically has voted for me.

3 bulls fans voted for the bulls.

Greet and another Brooklyn fan vote for a deron led team lol.

Rivera
09-10-2013, 12:45 PM
Slight Slight edge to Lakers. Psd mobile won't let me vote but that starting 5 is sex. Second best starting 5 in the mock right behind #teamgr8ness and the Indiana Pacers

Sadds The Gr8
09-10-2013, 12:47 PM
Slight Slight edge to Lakers. Psd mobile won't let me vote but that starting 5 is sex. Second best starting 5 in the mock right behind #teamgr8ness and the Indiana Pacers

#teamgr8ness4lyfe

Eagles4Lyfe
09-10-2013, 12:51 PM
write up in OP

Eagles4Lyfe
09-10-2013, 12:56 PM
Every GM basically has voted for me.

3 bulls fans voted for the bulls.

Greet and another Brooklyn fan vote for a deron led team lol.

I'm not going to say anything about your voters because our organization prides ourselves on class.
But remember you got votes before we even issued a write up. Like I said its an uphill climb for us but we have the info needed to get by you.


Slight Slight edge to Lakers. Psd mobile won't let me vote but that starting 5 is sex. Second best starting 5 in the mock right behind #teamgr8ness and the Indiana Pacers

Is your vote official or your just saying your on the brink of voting Lakers and seeing if we can change your mind?

Ebbs
09-10-2013, 12:57 PM
Slight Slight edge to Lakers. Psd mobile won't let me vote but that starting 5 is sex. Second best starting 5 in the mock right behind #teamgr8ness and the Indiana Pacers

Is that an official vote?

Eagles, KJ, Lucky when I get out of class Ill be here to battle

Eagles4Lyfe
09-10-2013, 01:46 PM
So basically the Lakers only listed 2 good suggestions on why they'd win the series lol.

Reasons 1 and 2 are so useless in a virtual game, especially since were assuming everyones healthy even guys hurt.

Reason 3: Your posting Horfords numbers when he went up against Centers, a harder position to defend from.

Also why do you keep mentioning Howard's Magic days, when he hasn't replicated those years in a while, who is to say he can do it again. Your working under the best case scenario without much recent proof (this past year more specifically) to back up your claims. Howard has suffered serious injuries and regressed as a leader which is a significant reasoning for guys like Nelson, Lee and Turk taking their game to a bigger notch.

When Dwight took that Magic team far he did what an elite player is supposed to do and that's raise the value of other players up to a whole new level because of the way they humbly carry themselves and the way they set an example on and off the court. But ever since then with all the head ache he's become, he's struggled to raise other players fight level around him and that hurts the point your trying to make.

Us on the other hand, have a humble and great leader in Tim Duncan ( a future hall of famer) who just led a so called aging Spurs team to the finals and helped raise the intensity level and games of guys like Danny Green, Kawhi, Diaw etc...This just happened recently to so we can use this claim truthfully, Lakers can't.


If were going to sell players on their numbers from years ago, then should we roll back the clock on Deron, make Landry Fields (rookie year rep)??

Again lets use more recent proof, rather than operating under false circumstances that your hoping would work out as the top of the line best case scenario.

The_Jamal
09-10-2013, 03:24 PM
Lakeshow.

Will explain later. Short version... More depth, and I trust there offensive in the clutch more than I trust Chicago

Eagles4Lyfe
09-10-2013, 03:42 PM
fair enough

Rivera
09-10-2013, 04:05 PM
Is that an official vote?

Eagles, KJ, Lucky when I get out of class Ill be here to battle

Official like a ref with a whistle. But psd mobile won't let ME vote

Joshtd1
09-10-2013, 04:22 PM
Still haven't voted on who I think will win...both teams are great and both teams compliment each other almost perfectly. LA has a sick offense, Bulls have a great defense. I'm split right now

Eagles4Lyfe
09-10-2013, 05:07 PM
Still haven't voted on who I think will win...both teams are great and both teams compliment each other almost perfectly. LA has a sick offense, Bulls have a great defense. I'm split right now

Well then lets go to the tie breaker. Defense wins championships. You saw first hand Duncan vs Howard in the playoffs. You saw Duncan vs Marc.
Then there is Kawhi who's offensive game stepped up a ton in the finals against Lebron guarding him.

It's not like our offense is incompetent either. We are more than capable of going toe to toe with them if need be. But we have the edge defensively to which is a huge factor.

xxplayerxx23
09-10-2013, 06:00 PM
Sorry my man but I went LA. Your team
Is great but I just think LA is unrealistically amazing.. Kyrie with this talent is crazy good. Dirk showed he still has it towards the end, the floor spacing is crazy great and I still believe in Dwight. AL and Timmy can sure bang but I just don't trust the others to score consistently enough to beat the Lakers in a 7 game series. Great work by everyone apart of these teams.

Ebbs
09-10-2013, 06:31 PM
PG: This is a matchup we feel will play a big role in the series and one we feel we have an advantage in. Everyone talks about how “efficient” Kyrie Irving is when Deron Williams was actually more efficient than he was last year. Kyrie spotted a .553 TS% while Deron Williams put up a TS% of .574. Deron Williams also had 5.1 Offensive RAPM while Kyrie Irving spotted a 3.0 offensive RAPM. Deron spotted 9.1 offensive win shares while Kyrie only put up 4.0 offensive win shares. These are the type of numbers that Deron was putting up back in his Utah Jazz days and with efficient 3 point shooters and with both of our bigs being able to run the pick and roll efficiently we see no reason why he can’t keep his same output or even improve upon it. Now neither of these players is very good defensively, but we feel that Deron has an offensive edge and will do more damage than Kyrie will. Another thing to take into account is how Kyrie Irving will produce in the playoffs. Now while it is not his fault that his teams haven’t gotten into the playoffs before, the lack of experience and amount of experience Deron has in the playoffs we feel will play into this. Deron in this years playoffs put up 20.6 PPG on .572 TS% which is a minimal drop off from the regular season. Also with the amount of offensive plays we can run with the Iso and Pick and Roll we have given ourselves the advantage at PG

I think the Bulls do believe they have an advantage at point guard but I don't see it. RAPM, and WS are being used out of context. PLaying on a top 5 seed in the East vs. the lottery winner plays a huge factor in those stats. Kyrie and Deron is close. But when it comes down to it. Kyrie is the better isolation scorer, the better shooter, and is more athletic. You say Kyrie hasn't produced in the playoffs but that's not true. We're in the finals so he has played adequately enough through a minimum of 12 playoff games already.

SG: This is another interesting matchup of offense vs. Defense here in Kevin Martin and Thabo. Thabo is an extremely efficient player on the offensive end who will likely be used in 3 point spot up situations. Last year Thabo shot 42% from deep and had a TS% of .617. Now while he won’t be a main piece in our offense, he is somebody that can be counted to make 3’s when needed and at an efficient rate. Now, where he is at his best is on the defensive end. Thabo had 3.1 Defensive Win Shares , and a 2.0 defensive RAPM. On a team with Kyrie Irving, Kevin Martin will likely be used as a spot up shooter, and last year he only had 246 FT attempts, showing that he has lost some of his aggression and settles for the jump shot a bit more. With a defender like Thabo on him we feel that we can limit Martin’s efficiency while Martin will have a harder time keeping Thabo from being efficient with his -2.4 Defensive RAPM and 107 Defensive Rating

Kevin Martin will be used as a shooter coming off screens, in spot up situations, and coming off cuts to the hoop. I don't like the he's just a shooter argument. Martin has been one of the leagues best scorers for years. Why does he continue to be so efficient if he's so easy to limit? Also how does Thabo have an upper hand here? He is a one trick pony. In real life he's a if wide open pull the trigger type shooter. Getting looks from Westbrook and Durant receiving double teams. You have no one on this team we have to double. I'd say Martin has a far easier task sticking to a one dimensional offensive option here. Even if we left him open. Thabo has no volume scoring in his retinue. This is the one thing advanced does not take account of. Not just any smuck can score twenty at will if left unguarded.

Part of the Writeup


So basically the Lakers only listed 2 good suggestions on why they'd win the series lol.

That's a lie but we really only need 1. My offense is better than your offense by a larger margin than your defense over my defense.

Reasons 1 and 2 are so useless in a virtual game, especially since were assuming everyones healthy even guys hurt.

Reason 3: Your posting Horfords numbers when he went up against Centers, a harder position to defend from.

Really? I don't know if that's true Center has been the NBA's weakest and shallowest position for years. This might be the first time in quite a while that's not the case.

Also why do you keep mentioning Howard's Magic days, when he hasn't replicated those years in a while, who is to say he can do it again. Your working under the best case scenario without much recent proof (this past year more specifically) to back up your claims. Howard has suffered serious injuries and regressed as a leader which is a significant reasoning for guys like Nelson, Lee and Turk taking their game to a bigger notch.

Like you said everyone is healthy. You can't assume grandpa Duncan is going to be anywhere as good as we was last season if you aren't letting Dwight be healthy. The difference is my player is a lot younger.

When Dwight took that Magic team far he did what an elite player is supposed to do and that's raise the value of other players up to a whole new level because of the way they humbly carry themselves and the way they set an example on and off the court. But ever since then with all the head ache he's become, he's struggled to raise other players fight level around him and that hurts the point your trying to make.

This isn't the same situation. I explained what a force Dwight is because he's been underrated on these boards. But Dwight wouldn't have to carry this team. He wouldn't have to fire us up every quarter. We have one of the most loyal, stand up, capable #1 options ever for a franchise in Dirk. We have a young hungry emerging super star and two of the games best role players who could be focal points of numerous other teams offenses. We aren't relying on Hedo, Rashard etc. . .

Us on the other hand, have a humble and great leader in Tim Duncan ( a future hall of famer) who just led a so called aging Spurs team to the finals and helped raise the intensity level and games of guys like Danny Green, Kawhi, Diaw etc...This just happened recently to so we can use this claim truthfully, Lakers can't.

Not sure what this is here for. We have the other Texas Legend. Dirk. . . Dirk won a championship with far less help than Duncan ever did if we're debating the past. Both are going to the Hall of Fame. Both bring the best out of their teammates. This is a wash if we are talking veteran leadership.

If were going to sell players on their numbers from years ago, then should we roll back the clock on Deron, make Landry Fields (rookie year rep)??

Interesting your co says Deron is back to form but you're asking if we should roll back the clock on him? And by all means if you want to try and squeeze a bit more value out of the worst third wing in the game go ahead. I don't think anyone is buying your reserves over mine.

Again lets use more recent proof, rather than operating under false circumstances that your hoping would work out as the top of the line best case scenario.


Official like a ref with a whistle. But psd mobile won't let ME vote
Makes this 16-10


Well then lets go to the tie breaker. Defense wins championships.

The worst cliché in sports. It goes both ways. But you don't win if you don't score a basket. The Spurs had a great run. Why suddenly after like 3 years of everyone thinking the Spurs best years were behind them did they make a run? Westbrook, Kobe, and Paul all injured? Lakers and Mavs with their worst squads of the last decade? The Spurs sort of like my Lakers were relatively unchallenged on their way to the finals.

You saw first hand Duncan vs Howard in the playoffs. You saw Duncan vs Marc.
Then there is Kawhi who's offensive game stepped up a ton in the finals against Lebron guarding him.

It's not like our offense is incompetent either. We are more than capable of going toe to toe with them if need be. But we have the edge defensively to which is a huge factor.

Your offense lacks depth. Deron couldn't lead the Nets over a Bulls team missing Rose, Deng and Noah at times. That is horrific. He had the heavy favorite and couldn't get it done in the first round. Now if Deron can't lead an offense capable of matching nate robinson, jimmy butler, and carlos boozer how is he going to match ours? By virtue of their talents Timmy and Horford are going to rely on Deron to feed them that ball. I don't think Timmy or Horford out produces their respective matchup in Dwight and Dirk. Your wings aren't volume scorers and likely won't match the their counterparts in Martin and Parsons. Like I said Deron and Kyrie is close but is that where you're going to put all your marbles?

Finally to Jamals point about us being able to close out games better. Aside from our deadlier PPP. Kyrie ranked third and Dirk ranked thirteen in the NBA's player clutch rating. Notably no Bulls players made the top 25.

5ass
09-10-2013, 06:47 PM
Well then lets go to the tie breaker. Defense wins championships. You saw first hand Duncan vs Howard in the playoffs. You saw Duncan vs Marc.
Then there is Kawhi who's offensive game stepped up a ton in the finals against Lebron guarding him.

It's not like our offense is incompetent either. We are more than capable of going toe to toe with them if need be. But we have the edge defensively to which is a huge factor.

You saw the Spurs vs Howard not Duncan. I've seen Howard abuse Duncan in the post believe it or not.

PatsSoxKnicks
09-11-2013, 04:01 AM
Will wait to vote. I am leaning towards the Lakers though because I just love the sextacular spacing in their offense and I think Dwight can still anchor a defense. Although questions about whether 09 Dwight shows up are legitimate I suppose (09 Dwight being the guy who made the Orlando D with crappy defenders around him). These past couple years Dwight hasn't been at that level though. In any case, still think he can make a big enough difference on D for the Lakers. And then their spacing and O is just disgustingly good. The 3 point line was invented so this Lakers team could happen.

On the other hand, I do agree with the Bulls in that I prefer Deron over Kyrie. I think Kyrie might be more talented and has the higher upside for sure but at the moment, Deron is better imo. I'm also a big Thabo fan and between him and Kawhi, ooh, that is some sweet sweet defense with some nice shooting to boot. And then Horford and Duncan is an excellent front court. This Bulls team is really a pretty damn complete one, with basically no weakness.

This is a pretty damn close matchup. And jesus are there so many good players on both teams with those excellent role players you just love. GMs should take note for future mocks because these are the types of teams you should aim to build. What an excellent job by both GMs.

5ass
09-11-2013, 07:07 AM
the one thing i dont like about the lakers team is kevin martin. They're much better off who can shoot and play D like sefolosha. Duncan cant stop Howard, No one can stop Dirk, and Deron isnt stopping Kyrie.

5ass
09-11-2013, 07:13 AM
The whole playoffs the Lakers have depended on teams doubling Dwight and setting up his shooters, but guess what? We won't need to double him and we can play everyone else straight up, so this team offensively against our defensive team is going to struggle to dominate the game like they have against every team they've faced thus far.


This is from the Bulls write up. What the **** are you watching man? Duncan cannot hold Dwight one-on-one. Dwight will have a field day. Duncan will be fatigued and in foul trouble making him much less effective offensively as well.

BullsNumber1Fan
09-11-2013, 12:54 PM
Sorry ebbs, but I had to go with Chicago... and not because I'm a Bulls fan. This Bulls team doesn't even have a single returning player, and for that I should have voted Lakers.:laugh2:;)

Short version of why, I like defensive players who can also score the ball (like Timmy, Al, and Kawhi) more than offensive players who can't play a lick of defense. Defense wins championships, especially when they are also of capable of putting the ball in the hoop.

Ebbs
09-11-2013, 01:45 PM
20-15 Lakers

+1 Lakers for Rivs vote

-1 Bulls for under 100 poster

Ebbs
09-11-2013, 01:46 PM
Sorry ebbs, but I had to go with Chicago... and not because I'm a Bulls fan. This Bulls team doesn't even have a single returning player, and for that I should have voted Lakers.:laugh2:;)

Short version of why, I like defensive players who can also score the ball (like Timmy, Al, and Kawhi) more than offensive players who can't play a lick of defense. Defense wins championships, especially when they are also of capable of putting the ball in the hoop.

Kawhi averaged like 11 per. I kinda thought I proved Horford was overrated defensively.

But fair enough man.

Killerjug
09-11-2013, 01:47 PM
-1 for the lakers as well for under 100 poster

Ebbs
09-11-2013, 01:53 PM
-1 for the lakers as well for under 100 poster

Lol at 99! Damn son needed 1 more.

19-15 then

Eagles4Lyfe
09-11-2013, 01:58 PM
Will wait to vote. I am leaning towards the Lakers though because I just love the sextacular spacing in their offense and I think Dwight can still anchor a defense. Although questions about whether 09 Dwight shows up are legitimate I suppose (09 Dwight being the guy who made the Orlando D with crappy defenders around him). These past couple years Dwight hasn't been at that level though. In any case, still think he can make a big enough difference on D for the Lakers. And then their spacing and O is just disgustingly good. The 3 point line was invented so this Lakers team could happen.

On the other hand, I do agree with the Bulls in that I prefer Deron over Kyrie. I think Kyrie might be more talented and has the higher upside for sure but at the moment, Deron is better imo. I'm also a big Thabo fan and between him and Kawhi, ooh, that is some sweet sweet defense with some nice shooting to boot. And then Horford and Duncan is an excellent front court. This Bulls team is really a pretty damn complete one, with basically no weakness.

This is a pretty damn close matchup. And jesus are there so many good players on both teams with those excellent role players you just love. GMs should take note for future mocks because these are the types of teams you should aim to build. What an excellent job by both GMs.

I don't know what more we can say that we haven't mentioned yet but the main point is I've given a nice detailed explanation of why people need to stop saying Dwight is just magically going to return to his magic days, without any proof.
We saw this same story last year, Dwight goes to Lakers and everyone says oh this is the year Dwight is going to return to form and look what happened.

A big man with back problems? That is not going to heal quickly my man.



This is from the Bulls write up. What the **** are you watching man? Duncan cannot hold Dwight one-on-one. Dwight will have a field day. Duncan will be fatigued and in foul trouble making him much less effective offensively as well.
When last year?
Your more than happy to prove my numbers I posted wrong.
I hope your not referring to his magic days

20-15 Lakers

+1 Lakers for Rivs vote

-1 Bulls for under 100 poster

Damn making a run.

Eagles4Lyfe
09-11-2013, 02:32 PM
Yes we have a game again, i love you NBA forum, always knew I can count on you.

Lets go baby

bootypants
09-11-2013, 02:35 PM
i voted bulls. and i found it easy. Lakers are too streaky for me, and bulls have D.

Sadds The Gr8
09-11-2013, 02:44 PM
so close but I think the Bulls have the defense to stifle LAL's O, and a pretty good offense as well. Chicago in 7.

king4day
09-11-2013, 02:57 PM
Picked the Bulls. I like their bigs better. Thabo will likely keep Martin's scoring limited.
Leonard is the deciding factor for me.
Both benches aren't very good so there's no real advantage there.

Ebbs
09-11-2013, 03:14 PM
Ok 19 all. It's going to come down to the wire and you are going to be fighting to the last minute. All of a sudden that fatigue I mentioned plays a role.

All of a sudden having Landry Fields as your third wing is a factor.

When both teams are at their limits whose going to continue to get theirs on offense Kyrie a member of the leagues elite isolation players. Dirk one if the best post season performers and closets of our era?

Or Deron who couldn't lead his team out of the first round last year? Grandpa Duncan who just played the second most post season games of his career. And in this game the bulls had him averaging more playoff minutes than years previous.

I just don't see how if its down to the wire that isn't a big advantage.

Eagles4Lyfe
09-11-2013, 03:55 PM
Deron couldn't lead his team out of the first round but Dwight Howard, your best player did correct?
or how about the amount of times Kyrie has actually led his team to the playoffs.

Duncan has proven he can anchor a team defensively and carry them to the finals even at his age more recently than this young Dwight Howard guy has.

Duncan and Kawhi are coming of a heart breaking finals where both left it all out on the line but suddenly Duncan's minutes are going to decline?

Are you forgetting the real grandpa Dirk Nowitzki's minutes have decreased the past 3 or 4 years? Duncan's minutes went up last year from the year before. His coach uses him wisely and rests him during the regular season and lets him go crazy in the playoffs and Duncan looked like he more than handled it.

Plus Duncan played an average of 36 minutes in the finals averaging 19/12 and only reason why it was 36 is because 3 of those games were blow outs so no point playing him. But when the games were closed he easily went into the 36+ minute territory.

Dirk averaged 31 minutes last year and played 40 minutes only 3 times. In those 3 40 minute games, where he faced good competition his numbers were not good at all. His %'s were bad and overall numbers in general weren't Dirk like.

At this point there is more proof that Duncan can handle heavy minutes and play at an elite level, Dirk can't.

JNA17
09-11-2013, 04:55 PM
Oh wow look at that, it was 20-20 and I was the tiebreaker :D.

I say Bulls (hurts to say even as a Lakers fan :( ). Reasons are the following.

1. Bulls look a lot better defensively.

2. Bulls have the right combination of players to play as a group. Dwight Howard will cry with the lack of touches he will get with the rest of the starters taking more shots than him every game. Especially with guys like Irving and Dirk on the same team.

3. Bulls honestly have more experience and arguably more talent. Dirk and Dwight are not who they use to be and Kyrie in the playoffs for the first time against an experienced group of guys like Deron, Tim Duncan, Horford and Lenard will be their downfall.

Overall, Bulls have more experience, better talent, better defense, and are much more team oriented. Lakers look like they suffer chemistry problems similar from Dwight Howard alone similar to the 2012-2013 Lakers with him crying over touches, Kyrie is not experienced enough, and Horford and Duncan together in the front court is just beautiful basketball.

Great job by both teams for the players they were able to assemble.

Eagles4Lyfe
09-11-2013, 05:14 PM
^^^ That knowledge is from a Lakers fan who watched Dwight extensively the whole year.
Clearly proving that what were saying is absolutely correct.

Thank you for that sir and hopefully people will read your post and realize this same thing.

Ebbs
09-11-2013, 05:15 PM
:laugh:

Ebbs
09-11-2013, 05:16 PM
Ill be home again later tonight to post again

BullsNumber1Fan
09-11-2013, 05:27 PM
Kawhi averaged like 11 per. I kinda thought I proved Horford was overrated defensively.

But fair enough man.

Kawhi averaged 12 PPG in the regular season and 14 PPG in the playoffs. He can score.

And I'll be honest too, you're lack of defense played into why I went Bulls. Kyrie, KMart, and Dirk are some of the worst defenders in the league.

Eagles4Lyfe
09-11-2013, 05:28 PM
:laugh:

Laughing is such an amazing line of defense eh

xxplayerxx23
09-11-2013, 06:47 PM
Eagles in all fairness he is probably bitter Dwight left :shrug:

Eagles4Lyfe
09-11-2013, 07:08 PM
He's not the first to say that though and definitely not the only one to think that.
Not to mention the stats back him up and Dwight's actions speak for themselves.


Would you rather have your best player as a class act, a humble leader that always is guaranteed to have great team chemistry, or would you have the exact situations JNA described Dwight brings?

Like PSK has also backed me up with Dwight hasn't had the same impact on a team since 09 with much better talent to boot. This isn't a coincidence, there are valid reasoning for this and we've provided them.

Ebbs
09-11-2013, 07:17 PM
Kawhi averaged 12 PPG in the regular season and 14 PPG in the playoffs. He can score.

And I'll be honest too, you're lack of defense played into why I went Bulls. Kyrie, KMart, and Dirk are some of the worst defenders in the league.

Dirk is a better defensive player than Horford...

Eagles4Lyfe
09-11-2013, 10:23 PM
bump

Ebbs
09-11-2013, 10:43 PM
Another fun fact. Eagles mentions that Horfords out of the key offense is heavily assist depended outside of the key. As is Duncans.

Deron had his second lowest career ast% last season. Again point being their offense is not our offense. Only worse ast% in his career? Yup; rookie season.

Eagles4Lyfe
09-12-2013, 12:15 AM
He had arguably the most talent on his team this year than ever in his career.
JJ, Brooks.
I'd assume he didn't get the ball as often as he used to which is why his efficiency was really good this year.

Ebbs
09-12-2013, 12:19 AM
He had arguably the most talent on his team this year than ever in his career.
JJ, Brooks.
I'd assume he didn't get the ball as often as he used to which is why his efficiency was really good this year.

JJ, Brooks, G-force, Lopez

would give him more chances for assists no? To find an open man with good offensive players?

unleashthebeast
09-12-2013, 12:22 AM
EDIT: I'm an idiot

Eagles4Lyfe
09-12-2013, 12:27 AM
^^ Huh

unleashthebeast
09-12-2013, 12:29 AM
My bad guys haha, wrong thread

Eagles4Lyfe
09-12-2013, 12:44 AM
JJ, Brooks, G-force, Lopez

would give him more chances for assists no? To find an open man with good offensive players?

Barely any spacing with that crew bro.
Gerald cant shoot
Reggie Evans can't shoot
Hump was a meh shooter
Brook doesn't shoot
JJ is practically the only guy with range. The rest of his assists are going to come from where? Lopez post ups and transition or break downs.

This year it should look better with Pierce and KG now on the team.

On our team he has Horf who's an elite level shooter.
Kawhi who was really good spreading the floor and Thabo.

When Bass comes in he offers mid range shooting too.

5ass
09-12-2013, 03:39 AM
I don't know what more we can say that we haven't mentioned yet but the main point is I've given a nice detailed explanation of why people need to stop saying Dwight is just magically going to return to his magic days, without any proof.
We saw this same story last year, Dwight goes to Lakers and everyone says oh this is the year Dwight is going to return to form and look what happened.

A big man with back problems? That is not going to heal quickly my man.



When last year?
Your more than happy to prove my numbers I posted wrong.
I hope your not referring to his magic days


Damn making a run.

Dude Duncan cant stop Dwight one-on-one. Just go watch the Spurs vs Lakers highlights.

5ass
09-12-2013, 03:45 AM
here, i'll help you out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W93HsQJlg7g

My favorite is at 1:35, follow up slam on duncan. I know Dwight gets a lot of **** for his offensive game, and most people say he's just an offensive rebounder and dunker, but most people on PSD dont know what the **** they're talking about.
I dont really want to stick up for Howard, but i hate when hard work and talent goes so unappreciated. Ill stick up for him as long as he's hated.

JNA17
09-12-2013, 05:09 AM
Eagles in all fairness he is probably bitter Dwight left :shrug:

Actually I'm just bitter that the Lakers couldn't trade him to the Warriors for Harrison Barnes. The last thing I wanted was the Lakers to keep him. You could ask Lakers fan about me in that regard. But even then, for me to still even be bitter now would be ludicrous. XD

Lucky.
09-12-2013, 10:51 AM
here, i'll help you out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W93HsQJlg7g

My favorite is at 1:35, follow up slam on duncan. I know Dwight gets a lot of **** for his offensive game, and most people say he's just an offensive rebounder and dunker, but most people on PSD dont know what the **** they're talking about.
I dont really want to stick up for Howard, but i hate when hard work and talent goes so unappreciated. Ill stick up for him as long as he's hated.


Yes, Youtube videos. That must prove you're correct.

Shammyguy3
09-12-2013, 10:57 AM
14 more hours for votes

Eagles4Lyfe
09-12-2013, 11:52 AM
yup time for the nitty gritty.

Lets go Bulls.
I do not believe they have the better team at all and am quite surprised they are winning, especially after the case we've presented to back ourselves up.

Sadds The Gr8
09-12-2013, 11:53 AM
yup time for the nitty gritty.

Lets go Bulls.
I do not believe they have the better team at all and am quite surprised they are winning, especially after the case we've presented to back ourselves up.

whats the official count

Eagles4Lyfe
09-12-2013, 11:54 AM
Lakers up by 2.
Rivs vote for them
We have 2 under 100 posts and he has 1

Ebbs
09-12-2013, 12:00 PM
yup time for the nitty gritty.

Lets go Bulls.
I do not believe they have the better team at all and am quite surprised they are winning, especially after the case we've presented to back ourselves up.

The Bulls Gm thinks his team is better.

I counter with the Lakers GM thinks his team is better!

I'm ahead and I believe I've backed up why.

Eagles4Lyfe
09-12-2013, 12:26 PM
Fair enough

Eagles4Lyfe
09-12-2013, 12:52 PM
bump bump bump

Killerjug
09-12-2013, 02:26 PM
moar votes

Bruno
09-12-2013, 02:36 PM
when does voting here close?

Eagles4Lyfe
09-12-2013, 02:42 PM
Tonight at 1 in the morning.

Eagles4Lyfe
09-12-2013, 04:13 PM
bump

Eagles4Lyfe
09-12-2013, 05:47 PM
damn down 3 :(

5ass
09-12-2013, 05:58 PM
Yes, Youtube videos. That must prove you're correct.

Am i wrong to say dwight abuses duncan in the post.
Next time you want to be sarcastic try not to look like an idiot. Yes its a youtube video, but its not a 30 second clip of one play. Its multiple plays. You can go watch the whole game if you want.

Eagles4Lyfe
09-12-2013, 06:01 PM
Am i wrong to say dwight abuses duncan in the post.
Next time you want to be sarcastic try not to look like an idiot. Yes its a youtube video, but its not a 30 second clip of one play. Its multiple plays. You can go watch the whole game if you want.

No actually you did look like one.
You posted a video where Duncan was on Dwight for like 3 or 4 possessions and 2 of those times Dwight missed but got the board over guys like Bonner and Splitter.
Congrats you sure proved a point big guy.

95% of those clips Dwight was being guarded by Splitter and Bonner

5ass
09-12-2013, 06:25 PM
No actually you did look like one.
You posted a video where Duncan was on Dwight for like 3 or 4 possessions and 2 of those times Dwight missed but got the board over guys like Bonner and Splitter.
Congrats you sure proved a point big guy.

95% of those clips Dwight was being guarded by Splitter and Bonner

You can watch other clips of Howard vs Dwight. I've watched Dwight go up against Duncan since he was in Orlando. I know that Duncan cannot stop Dwight one-on-one. Also the Lakers will probably push the tempo of the offense when they can. Duncan cannot run with Dwight. Dwight will get his 20+ points per game on high effeiciency. Duncan will look old and fatigued.

5ass
09-12-2013, 06:28 PM
Reading some of your write up, I get the feeling you should actually watch more games instead of always just looking at the stats.

Eagles4Lyfe
09-12-2013, 06:31 PM
The good old watch games but not providing enough evidence and proof argument. Good one..

Just like I figured bringing up the Dwight in Orlando days :laugh:

Eagles4Lyfe
09-12-2013, 06:32 PM
Reading some of your write up, I get the feeling you should actually watch more games instead of always just looking at the stats.

Ya watching youtube replaces watching a full game and having numerical stats to back up your claims.
:crazy:

Lucky.
09-12-2013, 06:39 PM
Am i wrong to say dwight abuses duncan in the post.
Next time you want to be sarcastic try not to look like an idiot. Yes its a youtube video, but its not a 30 second clip of one play. Its multiple plays. You can go watch the whole game if you want.

I didn't look like an idiot.

I don't care if it's 30 seconds, a highlight reel or an entire game. I never agreed or disagreed. I didn't even watch the video. Showing a video is one of the worst ways to make an argument.

5ass
09-12-2013, 06:39 PM
What stats? Dude all you need to see is how Dwight gets triple teamed when he goes one-on-one against Duncan.

Eagles4Lyfe
09-12-2013, 06:43 PM
Open up like 98% of these threads in the main forum and you'll understand people don't back up opinions with youtube video but rather stats.

5ass
09-12-2013, 06:43 PM
I didn't look like an idiot.

I don't care if it's 30 seconds, a highlight reel or an entire game. I never agreed or disagreed. I didn't even watch the video. Showing a video is one of the worst ways to make an argument.

No, thats my point, thats not always true. A video is stupid when its a 30 second clip that rarely happens again. Next time watch the video before commenting. You can go watch the whole games to see how Duncan did vs Dwight, I just dont have access to those or else I would post the link.

5ass
09-12-2013, 06:45 PM
Open up like 98% of these threads in the main forum and you'll understand people don't back up opinions with youtube video but rather stats.

Why are you being so simplistic? Hell, lets stop broadcasting games on TV then and just post the stats, am i right?

Ebbs
09-12-2013, 06:46 PM
The good old watch games but not providing enough evidence and proof argument. Good one..

Just like I figured bringing up the Dwight in Orlando days :laugh:

You talk about Deron being back in form all the time and he is the front man for just a disastrous choke job last post season.

Dwight's concern was health which is remedied in this game.

What is Duncan's remedy for age and size? What's Derons remedy for under achieving?

Killerjug
09-12-2013, 06:52 PM
You talk about Deron being back in form all the time and he is the front man for just a disastrous choke job last post season.

Dwight's concern was health which is remedied in this game.

What is Duncan's remedy for age and size? What's Derons remedy for under achieving?

ya because it was deron's fault they lost that series. His numbers were actually pretty solid in that series

Eagles4Lyfe
09-12-2013, 06:52 PM
You talk about Deron being back in form all the time and he is the front man for just a disastrous choke job last post season.

Dwight's concern was health which is remedied in this game.

What is Duncan's remedy for age and size? What's Derons remedy for under achieving?

Duncan's remedy? Should I refer you to my post about a page or 2 ago, showing how Dirk was horrible when he logged heavy minutes last year and how Duncan posted Elite numbers still in the finals despite logging heavy minutes?

What's Dirks remedy for having a steady decrease in his minutes the last 3 or 4 years?

Also no we absolutely are not forgetting Dwights back injury. It's not like he has a finger or arm injury.
This is a big center with a back injury that's practically nagged him for like the last 2 or 3 years. Suddenly were supposed to expect it to go away?

With what proof? Your just stating a whole bunch of assumptions with no merits to back it up.

Eagles4Lyfe
09-12-2013, 06:55 PM
Why are you being so simplistic? Hell, lets stop broadcasting games on TV then and just post the stats, am i right?

Ya or lets do what you do and resort to watching youtube videos and dwelling in the past.

Ebbs
09-12-2013, 06:56 PM
In this game everyone is healthy Dwight has no back injury...

Eagles4Lyfe
09-12-2013, 06:59 PM
In this game everyone is healthy Dwight has no back injury...

We assume players are healthy heading into next year.
That doesn't mean we forget the injuries they just currently have.
I'm sorry but I'm not excusing a big man who has had a lingering back problems and hasn't proven he can carry a team in like 3 or 4 years.

5ass
09-12-2013, 07:02 PM
Ya or lets do what you do and resort to watching youtube videos and dwelling in the past.

Show me these stats you say you have where duncan guards dwight one-on-one without help and mostly succeeds.

Ebbs
09-12-2013, 07:03 PM
Lol 3-4 years you have no idea when or to what extent his back injury is at now do you? :laugh:

Believe what you want to believe rules of the game do however state this is a year in the future. And all players are to be considered healthy both of those arguments bode well for Dwight over Duncan:

5ass
09-12-2013, 07:06 PM
Lol 3-4 years you have no idea when or to what extent his back injury is at now do you? :laugh:

Believe what you want to believe rules of the game do however state this is a year in the future. And all players are to be considered healthy both of those arguments bode well for Dwight over Duncan:

exactly, because he doesnt watch the games. He didnt see Dwight's health improving towards the end of the season.

Eagles4Lyfe
09-12-2013, 07:09 PM
What?? I'll just refer you to this article.


During his final season in Orlando (2011-12), D12 began to complain of low back pain and weakness in his left leg. In an interview last year Howard described how his entire leg “went dead” and that he was unable to do a single calf raise. This type of weakness is a symptom of a radiculopathy, an injury to a nerve root resulting from inflammation in the area or direct compression on the root itself. There can also be an associated increase in pain or loss of sensation in the area that is supplied by the particular nerve root affected.

After further investigation, it was determined that Howard’s radiculopathy was the result of a herniated disc. This occurs when the inner jelly-like substance (nucleus) of our disc rupture through the tougher outer layer (annulus) and protrudes into the space typically reserved for our nerve roots to exit the spine. As a result, Dwight underwent a lumbar microdiscectomy on April 20, 2012. This surgery involves the removal of the herniated disc material in an effort to relieve the pressure on the pinched nerve and to help resolve the weakness in his leg.

While this type of surgery has generally had a positive impact on the symptoms and has allowed athletes to return to their sport, it isn’t foolproof when it comes to getting an NBA player back to their past level of production. In a study looking at a player’s ability to return to sport after a lumbar disc herniation, researchers found that 25% (6 out of 24) of players who underwent a discectomy did not return to the NBA. Of the players that did return, they played an average of 20 less games in their first season back from surgery. There was also a decline in statistical categories such as points per game, assists per game, rebounds per game and steals per game in their first season post-surgery (although no difference was found between players who had surgery and those who did not).

Howard’s statistics clearly fit this pattern as he had his worst season since 2006-2007 in defensive rebounding and total rebounding, along with his lowest points per game average since 2005-2006. While his free throw shooting has never been solid, his percentage from the line dipped sharply in his injury season from .596 to .491 and remained the same this past year. Howard may also have been a bit less active attacking the rim this past season as his free throw attempts per game also dropped to a level not seen since 2006-2007.

http://thegoodpoint.com/dwight-howard-back-injury/

But ya I'm making stuff up :facepalm:

5ass
09-12-2013, 07:13 PM
What a ****** article.

Eagles4Lyfe
09-12-2013, 07:14 PM
:laugh: :laugh:

First stats are stupid, now an article is ******** lmao.
This guys a gem

Killerjug
09-12-2013, 07:19 PM
exactly, because he doesnt watch the games. He didnt see Dwight's health improving towards the end of the season.

well then we saw a healthier dwight getting owned by duncan and the spurs

5ass
09-12-2013, 07:19 PM
Howard’s statistics clearly fit this pattern as he had his worst season since 2006-2007 in defensive rebounding and total rebounding, along with his lowest points per game average since 2005-2006.

Well yes, thats because he started the season coming off of back surgery. It takes time to recover. He could've sat out some games and helped his numbers. Anyway RBG went from 11.8 (pre allstar break) to 13.6 (post allstar).


Howard may also have been a bit less active attacking the rim this past season as his free throw attempts per game also dropped to a level not seen since 2006-2007.
So this article just assumes he stopped attacking the rim as much because of his FT attempts per game. When its in fact because he had his lowest USG% since 06-07.

5ass
09-12-2013, 07:25 PM
well then we saw a healthier dwight getting owned by duncan and the spurs

By popovich and the Spurs. Yes. By Duncan? No he didnt get owned.

Eagles4Lyfe
09-12-2013, 07:26 PM
So you just proved our point right then, a big man coming of back surgery. That's exactly what we've been harping on dude.

Killerjug
09-12-2013, 07:28 PM
By popovich and the Spurs. Yes. By Duncan? No he didnt get owned.

Really because the stats beg to differ but of course stat's don't tell the story right?

5ass
09-12-2013, 07:31 PM
Really because the stats beg to differ but of course stat's don't tell the story right?

Not the whole story, no. What you saw were the Spurs double, triple and quadruple teaming Howard when Duncan was left alone with him near the paint. In this match up the strategy is to let Duncan cover Dwight one-on-one.

5ass
09-12-2013, 07:36 PM
So you just proved our point right then, a big man coming of back surgery. That's exactly what we've been harping on dude.

The article is assuming Dwight is never going to be healthy, and uses his season numbers to prove that point. Do you now see why I said it was a ****** article? Do you agree now? Im not sure how this mock offseason works but if we are assuming Dwight goes into this series straight off of back surgery then you are right we're not going to see a healthy Dwight.

Eagles4Lyfe
09-12-2013, 08:07 PM
2 back come on babyyyy..
5 hours left..

Ebbs
09-12-2013, 08:32 PM
Ola ola ola go Lakers Ola

Eagles4Lyfe
09-12-2013, 08:39 PM
Crowds going nuts from thisgreat back and forth action

Ebbs
09-12-2013, 08:55 PM
I'm either drowning my sorrows or celebrating my victory will see in 3 hours

Eagles4Lyfe
09-12-2013, 08:58 PM
Barely any voters around :(
I wish it would atleast get tied and it comes down to the final hour

Bruno
09-12-2013, 09:34 PM
Irving>Williams
Martin=Thabo
Parsons<Leonard
Dirk>Horford
Howard<Duncan.

i really dont know what to do here. and its 24/24? wow :facepalm:

the question in my gut is how dominant can Dirk be. How much of that 2011 post-season run does he have left in him. should i give him the benefit of the doubt because cuban gutted his shot and a defense and took away from the motivation to be at his best, or do i just say that two years is two years and he could never dominant again at that level. i think thats the main question in this debate. how dominant can dirk be with a brilliant supporting cast.

Bruno
09-12-2013, 09:36 PM
these teams are too good! lol

Eagles4Lyfe
09-12-2013, 09:47 PM
Irving>Williams
Martin=Thabo
Parsons<Leonard
Dirk>Horford
Howard<Duncan.

i really dont know what to do here. and its 24/24? wow :facepalm:

the question in my gut is how dominant can Dirk be. How much of that 2011 post-season run does he have left in him. should i give him the benefit of the doubt because cuban gutted his shot and a defense and took away from the motivation to be at his best, or do i just say that two years is two years and he could never dominant again at that level. i think thats the main question in this debate. how dominant can dirk be with a brilliant supporting cast.

I disagree with the Williams>Irving. The Lakers have kinda admitted this to, plus when you factor in experience would you want to take Irving over WIlliams in a finals with such high magnitude?

Also your correct about Dirk.
These have been his average minuets the last 4 years.
37:30
34:17
33:30
31:18

Last year he played 40 minutes 3 out of the 53 games he played in. In those 3 games
vs the Kings: 7/21 whcih equates to 33% averaging 17/9
vs OKC: 5/19 26% from field 18/9
vs Denver: 9/17 53% 22/10


Plus its not like he has a slouch defending him, that is also going to make him work defensively.
Plus you even said yourself Duncan>Dwight

That's supposed to be their best player and if we negate him, then our chances are really great on winning this.

Also remember the impact Kawhi can have, he was getting baskets against Lebron. He'll contribute for us to offensively here and there which also will make another impact.

Ebbs
09-12-2013, 09:56 PM
Irving>Williams
Martin=Thabo
Parsons<Leonard
Dirk>Horford
Howard<Duncan.

i really dont know what to do here. and its 24/24? wow :facepalm:

the question in my gut is how dominant can Dirk be. How much of that 2011 post-season run does he have left in him. should i give him the benefit of the doubt because cuban gutted his shot and a defense and took away from the motivation to be at his best, or do i just say that two years is two years and he could never dominant again at that level. i think thats the main question in this debate. how dominant can dirk be with a brilliant supporting cast.

I'm drunk but ask yourself these questions

How much better does Kyrie get with a year in the future + this significantly better team?

What did Dirk accomplish with Tyson Chabdlef and Jason Terry? (Look at this team)

When Dwught was healthy how much of a force was he on both ends with a team that never ever have him support like this one?

Finally why did most mock GM's vote for the Lakeshow?

All the posters who spend hours trying to win this belief!

Bruno
09-12-2013, 10:00 PM
damn, so torn. ive read everything- still torn.

am i the last regular voter left who hasn't voted? this ends at what time in pacific coast time?

Killerjug
09-12-2013, 10:02 PM
still got 3 hours

Ebbs
09-12-2013, 10:05 PM
Rosh, PSK, Bruno, Sporty

I can't think of who else in the games is left

Bruno
09-12-2013, 10:08 PM
ebbs your sig is haunting my decision making. i think hes right but i'm so biased against dwight howard and i think duncans got him.

Eagles4Lyfe
09-12-2013, 10:12 PM
ebbs your sig is haunting my decision making. i think hes right but i'm so biased against dwight howard and i think duncans got him.

Stay true to your heart and what you saw with your own eyes.
We even proved the claims on why Duncan>Dwight which you further backed us up on

Bruno
09-12-2013, 10:21 PM
im not gona vote. i can't decide and i dont want to be the final vote responsible for ruining some ones night. good luck everybody.

you guys did a fantastic job :clap:

Eagles4Lyfe
09-12-2013, 10:23 PM
im not gona vote. i can't decide and i dont want to be the final vote responsible for ruining some ones night. good luck everybody.

you guys did a fantastic job :clap:

Your not the final vote either way bro lol..Lakers are already up 2 right now.
They either go up 3 or are down 1.

Plus no ones going to hate on you no matter what. The more the merrier

Ebbs
09-12-2013, 10:34 PM
im not gona vote. i can't decide and i dont want to be the final vote responsible for ruining some ones night. good luck everybody.

you guys did a fantastic job :clap:

This is the first year Duncan's been better than Deight in years. And it's because Dwight was hurt. Now Dwight's healthy. Come on Bruno you know the truth aha.

Dirk - Dwight - Kyrie the truth

Eagles4Lyfe
09-12-2013, 10:39 PM
Dwight's healthy? According to what?

Also Ebbs wants to bring up Kyrie getting better in a year, are you forgetting how many people think Kawhi will be a star next year or take a humangous step?

Also can you trust Kyrie as a distributor, it's the best talent he's probably had but has never proven to be a good distributor, cavs talent or not.

We can easily counter with whatever. But were mainly basing this of last year statistically and what we feel will happen in the future.
We have just as bright a future but our main studs also have experience and numbers from last year to go forward with.

Ebbs
09-12-2013, 10:45 PM
As far as I'm concern parsons is as good if not better than Kawhi. So it's a mute point

Ebbs
09-12-2013, 10:45 PM
Kyrie is a fine distributor. Lets see you milk 8 APG out of Tristan Thompson and Alonzo Gee good lord

Eagles4Lyfe
09-12-2013, 10:58 PM
Kyrie is a fine distributor. Lets see you milk 8 APG out of Tristan Thompson and Alonzo Gee good lord

Same concerns were said about Derrick Rose, people didn't think he was a "natural PG" when he first came into the league and still averaged 6 assists despite having Tyrus and Noah starting and no spacing on the floor much with Ben Gordon being the only one and 2 ISO players in the starting 5.

In his first playoffs he wasn't that great either. You learn from your first time. Remember James Hardens first finals?
You can't just assume the bright lights won't get to em.

Sportfan
09-12-2013, 10:59 PM
Honestly I feel like the SF and C matchups are the key here. I saw Parsons put up 18 ppg on his normal percentages against Leonard and his spurs so I was leaning towards them. Then I noticed the turnovers and fouls of Dwight and Duncan in the playoffs.

Honestly the biggest thing here for me is that Dwight is probably 5th option on this team. I feel like with that, Dwight will raise his defensive game up a notch just like KG did when he went from the Wolves by himself to the Celtics with other stars. That's scary to think about as Dwight is already tremendous defensively.

I just don't see how the Bulls can contain all 5 of those Laker players. Even leaving one of them open will be catastrophic so you really can't double team pretty much at all. One-on one you have to like Kyrie/Dirk on Deron/Horf. Horf sucked against spot up shooting last night allowing 46% FG and ranked 253rd.

But the Lakers bench is actually putrid. That's a lot of minutes for their scrubs. At least 10 minutes for each position. Bulls bench isn't much better but they at least have 2 decent pieces to play. Benches will be critical


I'm leaning LA but willing to hear another argument

Ebbs
09-12-2013, 11:03 PM
Honestly both benched are below average. Jae Crowder, Mahinmi, Harris are decent reserves.

Bass and Barea solid reserves. It is what it is.

Not that it matters but G-force may actually be effective in a lesser role where his athleticism isn't leaned on.

Killerjug
09-12-2013, 11:11 PM
Honestly I feel like the SF and C matchups are the key here. I saw Parsons put up 18 ppg on his normal percentages against Leonard and his spurs so I was leaning towards them. Then I noticed the turnovers and fouls of Dwight and Duncan in the playoffs.

Honestly the biggest thing here for me is that Dwight is probably 5th option on this team. I feel like with that, Dwight will raise his defensive game up a notch just like KG did when he went from the Wolves by himself to the Celtics with other stars. That's scary to think about as Dwight is already tremendous defensively.

I just don't see how the Bulls can contain all 5 of those Laker players. Even leaving one of them open will be catastrophic so you really can't double team pretty much at all. One-on one you have to like Kyrie/Dirk on Deron/Horf. Horf sucked against spot up shooting last night allowing 46% FG and ranked 253rd.

But the Lakers bench is actually putrid. That's a lot of minutes for their scrubs. At least 10 minutes for each position. Bulls bench isn't much better but they at least have 2 decent pieces to play. Benches will be critical


I'm leaning LA but willing to hear another argument

Isnt that part of the problem with Dwight in that he wants to be the man not the 5th option? He likely would demand the ball much more than a 5th option and if not it could effect his overall game. I dont see how we can't contain them we have a solid defender on everyone other than Kyrie. Also while the Lakers are better than us offensively if they leave any of our guys open with our efficiency we will hurt them as well. Thabo and Kawhi aren't great scorers by any means but if Deron gets by Kyrie which is likely to happen it will open them up for open shots which they have proven to knock down and Horford and Duncan have shown the ability to come out and hit a jumper or play by the rim so offensively we feel we still will be able to get ours on them

Eagles4Lyfe
09-12-2013, 11:15 PM
Honestly I feel like the SF and C matchups are the key here. I saw Parsons put up 18 ppg on his normal percentages against Leonard and his spurs so I was leaning towards them. Then I noticed the turnovers and fouls of Dwight and Duncan in the playoffs.

Honestly the biggest thing here for me is that Dwight is probably 5th option on this team. I feel like with that, Dwight will raise his defensive game up a notch just like KG did when he went from the Wolves by himself to the Celtics with other stars. That's scary to think about as Dwight is already tremendous defensively.

I just don't see how the Bulls can contain all 5 of those Laker players. Even leaving one of them open will be catastrophic so you really can't double team pretty much at all. One-on one you have to like Kyrie/Dirk on Deron/Horf. Horf sucked against spot up shooting last night allowing 46% FG and ranked 253rd.

But the Lakers bench is actually putrid. That's a lot of minutes for their scrubs. At least 10 minutes for each position. Bulls bench isn't much better but they at least have 2 decent pieces to play. Benches will be critical


I'm leaning LA but willing to hear another argument

Barea instant offense.. Remember how he did against the Heat in the finals. His added offense is crucial for us because they don't have that immediate access to offense like we do of the bench.

Also Dirk can't handle the heavy minutes anymore and I've proven why. Those extra 7-9 minutes horford plays over him are crucial because he'll be roasting the guy of the bench.

Also your a Celtics fan you know how much of a solid player Bass has turned into of the bench and in your starting 5.

Also one more thing regarding your Dwight being a 5th option

Nash
Kobe
MWP
Gasol
Dwight

Remember how crazy PSD went over thinking that team will be unstoppable same case here man.

Also you yourself admit Howard gets in foul trouble, who's anchoring that defense down low then when he's out and where is the offense coming from when and if he and Dirk have to go to the bench.

Eagles4Lyfe
09-12-2013, 11:24 PM
Damn that might be the dagger.

5ass
09-12-2013, 11:51 PM
Dwight's healthy? According to what?

Also Ebbs wants to bring up Kyrie getting better in a year, are you forgetting how many people think Kawhi will be a star next year or take a humangous step?

Also can you trust Kyrie as a distributor, it's the best talent he's probably had but has never proven to be a good distributor, cavs talent or not.

We can easily counter with whatever. But were mainly basing this of last year statistically and what we feel will happen in the future.
We have just as bright a future but our main studs also have experience and numbers from last year to go forward with.

so if this is a year later why should we assume dwight hasnt recovered into his normal self?

Lucky.
09-12-2013, 11:59 PM
so if this is a year later why should we assume dwight hasnt recovered into his normal self?

He was referring to Ebbs saying Kyrie would improve after another year.

Killerjug
09-13-2013, 12:01 AM
1 hour left get those last minute votes in

Killerjug
09-13-2013, 12:34 AM
30 minutes!

Sadds The Gr8
09-13-2013, 12:52 AM
LAL is up 2?

Killerjug
09-13-2013, 12:54 AM
yes. 10 more minutes send it to OT!

Ebbs
09-13-2013, 12:56 AM
No overtime 2:00 left the Lakers up 2.

LA calls time out dirk inbounds the ball to Kyrie.


Parsons and Martin to the corners. Dwight's open in the post Kyrie dribbles looking for the entry pass. Dirk sets a screen. Kyrie fakes the pass to Dwight hits Dirk on the pick n pop. Like so many times before; Butter. Dirk for 2 on the soft as silk fadeaway jumper.

Killerjug
09-13-2013, 01:04 AM
congrats ebbs

Ebbs
09-13-2013, 01:05 AM
Congrats to lucky, eagles, and KJ.

This is the closest final I've ever seen. Literally can believe how hard I was stressing this til the end.

TrueFan420
09-13-2013, 03:15 AM
Damn forgot to vote this was a great match up tho... Who ended up wining?

xxplayerxx23
09-13-2013, 08:36 AM
Congrats ebbs

Ebbs
09-13-2013, 12:40 PM
Thanks!

bloomis1307
09-13-2013, 02:59 PM
100 ;)

Ebbs
09-13-2013, 05:21 PM
Haha

ClearSoulForce
09-13-2013, 06:52 PM
haha that Eagles dude has to be a sore loser. ***** all over Dirk like the man isn't an NBA player. Mentions the greatness of JJ Barea but just says how Dirk is old and is probably the worst player in the NBA.

Then loses and says nothing. ahahahha