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ragee
09-09-2013, 09:30 AM
I just saw the news that Hakeem thinks Blake needs his help. For the last few years, there are several players who have went to him for tutelage and it seems like whenever a player needs to work on his post up game, he is the guy to go to. However, out of all the players that he had worked with, I have yet to see one who have greatly improved let alone mimic his style of play.
A lot of people here might argue and say Kobe but lets be honest, Kobe was already a great post up player before he worked with Hakeem.

So here's my question:

Do you think the Dream's workout is overrated? His post up game was one of the best but if a player wanted to work on that aspect of his game, can't they train with other great post up players who have a similar playing style? Players like Kareem and Ewing ( I think Blake and Dwight will be more successful if they try to play like Ewing instead of The Dream). Plus, being a great player does not generally translate to being a great mentor in my opinion. Some of the great coaches were not the best players during their time. Will it really be more productive if you train with hall of fame players?

Just a random thought. I just would like to see the opinion of others.

NYKnickFanatic
09-09-2013, 09:36 AM
Overrated? Not sure.

$50,000 DEFINITELY overpriced.

AWC713
09-09-2013, 10:00 AM
Overrated? Not sure.

$50,000 DEFINITELY overpriced.

50,000 is nothing to these players, especially compared to what players during Hakeem's era made...I think it's a good deal given the immense knowledge Hakeem has on the game, and giving him back 50k is also way of paying homage to the greats, because they didn't make half the money some scrubs today make.

NY4YA
09-09-2013, 10:33 AM
Amare has become a legit threat in the post since training with hakeem. He just hasn't been healthy long enough to get the reputation as a post threat

Sly Guy
09-09-2013, 10:46 AM
I'm iffy on the results so far. Every player I've heard of him working out hasn't really impressed me with major strides in post production.

nycericanguy
09-09-2013, 11:07 AM
Yea Amare was insanely effective in the post last year, though it was kind of a small sample size so it's hard to really judge.

And yea, 50k is nothing to Amare or most of these guys. 50k is .23% of Amare's salary...lol. For comparison, let's say you make 100k per year, that would be $230 for you.

beasted86
09-09-2013, 11:29 AM
LeBron?
How do you forget the best player in the NBA who had no post game, then suddenly a solid one?

I think the players who are lacking results have a bad work ethic and/or bad habits not easy to break.

ztilzer31
09-09-2013, 11:35 AM
I just saw the news that Hakeem thinks Blake needs his help. For the last few years, there are several players who have went to him for tutelage and it seems like whenever a player needs to work on his post up game, he is the guy to go to. However, out of all the players that he had worked with, I have yet to see one who have greatly improved let alone mimic his style of play.
A lot of people here might argue and say Kobe but lets be honest, Kobe was already a great post up player before he worked with Hakeem.

So here's my question:

Do you think the Dream's workout is overrated? His post up game was one of the best but if a player wanted to work on that aspect of his game, can't they train with other great post up players who have a similar playing style? Players like Kareem and Ewing ( I think Blake and Dwight will be more successful if they try to play like Ewing instead of The Dream). Plus, being a great player does not generally translate to being a great mentor in my opinion. Some of the great coaches were not the best players during their time. Will it really be more productive if you train with hall of fame players?

Just a random thought. I just would like to see the opinion of others.

Uh what about LBJ?

ztilzer31
09-09-2013, 11:36 AM
LeBron?
How do you forget the best player in the NBA who had no post game, then suddenly a solid one?

I think the players who are lacking results have a bad work ethic and/or bad habits not easy to break.

Oh you beat me to it....

Hakeem completely changed LBJ's post game and is the biggest reason for his huge improvement over the last 2 years.

ztilzer31
09-09-2013, 11:39 AM
You can't teach a kid to be like Hakeem. Hakeem was 6 feet 10 inches, and had the footwork of a 6 feet 2 inch guard. You can't teach a player when they don't have the ability at their size to do that....

Blake Griffin footwork is literally atrocious at times. I love Blake, but he's been overrated for awhile now... If he fixes his footwork he could be one of the best PF's in the NBA.

flea
09-09-2013, 11:40 AM
The only thing that's overrated is probably the talent level of the guys trying to learn from him. Not every big man has the touch to be elite in the post - but most of them can get better. And most players do get better after working with Hakeem. What a strange thread.

LongIslandIcedZ
09-09-2013, 11:51 AM
From what little we saw, it was huge for Amare.

*Superman*
09-09-2013, 12:40 PM
When Dwight was in Orlando and worked out with Hakeem for a few days it seemed more impactful in his game then all those years he worked with Ewing as a asst. coach. So I don't think it's overrated.

king4day
09-09-2013, 12:42 PM
Couldn't agree more with the OP. A lot of guys have gone to him but not many have showed results.
LeBron would have figured it out regardless of who trained him (hell, he probably figures it out on his own).

I never saw Amar'e improve (injury or not). Same with Gortat.

FlashBolt
09-09-2013, 12:51 PM
BG needs help from Hakeem and a whole lot of players. He relies solely on dunks and lobs and tends to shoot fadeaways when he's stuck and out of position.

aman_13
09-09-2013, 01:08 PM
It will be interesting to see how Gay plays from the post this season after working out the Hakeem this off-season.

Heatcheck
09-09-2013, 01:26 PM
I just saw the news that Hakeem thinks Blake needs his help. For the last few years, there are several players who have went to him for tutelage and it seems like whenever a player needs to work on his post up game, he is the guy to go to. However, out of all the players that he had worked with, I have yet to see one who have greatly improved let alone mimic his style of play.
A lot of people here might argue and say Kobe but lets be honest, Kobe was already a great post up player before he worked with Hakeem.
So here's my question:

Do you think the Dream's workout is overrated? His post up game was one of the best but if a player wanted to work on that aspect of his game, can't they train with other great post up players who have a similar playing style? Players like Kareem and Ewing ( I think Blake and Dwight will be more successful if they try to play like Ewing instead of The Dream). Plus, being a great player does not generally translate to being a great mentor in my opinion. Some of the great coaches were not the best players during their time. Will it really be more productive if you train with hall of fame players?

Just a random thought. I just would like to see the opinion of others.

No he wasn't, he just wasn't.

Clippersfan86
09-09-2013, 01:46 PM
More clueless Blake Griffin analysis. He has FANTASTIC footwork and coordination. His post game can look awkward at times but it's not related to footwork at all. It's related to poor coaching and lack of experience in the post. He's always been so athletically gifted that he never had to slow it down in the post before. When he does though he shows plenty of flashes of incredible oost work. His up and under moves and hook shots off the spin are downright beautiful sometimes. I agree he needs Hakeem because unlike 99 percent of other bigs Blake has the quickness, footwork, IQ, explosiveness and touch to really utilize it to the max.

ztilzer31
09-09-2013, 01:50 PM
Couldn't agree more with the OP. A lot of guys have gone to him but not many have showed results.
LeBron would have figured it out regardless of who trained him (hell, he probably figures it out on his own).

I never saw Amar'e improve (injury or not). Same with Gortat.

This statement is ridiculous.

ztilzer31
09-09-2013, 02:00 PM
More clueless Blake Griffin analysis. He has FANTASTIC footwork and coordination. His post game can look awkward at times but it's not related to footwork at all. It's related to poor coaching and lack of experience in the post. He's always been so athletically gifted that he never had to slow it down in the post before. When he does though he shows plenty of flashes of incredible oost work. His up and under moves and hook shots off the spin are downright beautiful sometimes. I agree he needs Hakeem because unlike 99 percent of other bigs Blake has the quickness, footwork, IQ, explosiveness and touch to really utilize it to the max.

Lol he does not have fantastic footwork. He has average at best. He's been a PNR guy for most of his career. He's great at fast break, and when he does get defensive rebounds he usually causes points on the other end. He actually has really great court vision for a PF, and he's athletic. He can also attack the basket very well.

However he constantly shoots off the wrong foot, and try's to do too much in the post sometimes. To say he has fantastic footwork though isn't even arguable. That's straight false. Tim Duncan has fantastic footwork. So did Hakeem. He needs work.

His weak side defense is pretty bad too. He's got some superstar skills, but he is lacking in too many place right now. He needs to round his game up, and he'll be great.

tr3ymill3r
09-09-2013, 02:00 PM
LBJ give complete credit to Hakeem on his post play and how it improved. Dream still has better footwork than anyone in the league right now.

Chronz
09-09-2013, 02:11 PM
You can't teach a kid to be like Hakeem. Hakeem was 6 feet 10 inches, and had the footwork of a 6 feet 2 inch guard. You can't teach a player when they don't have the ability at their size to do that....

Blake Griffin footwork is literally atrocious at times. I love Blake, but he's been overrated for awhile now... If he fixes his footwork he could be one of the best PF's in the NBA.

He actually has decent footwork, what he lacks is touch. Hes got all sorts of counters but you can only go to a counter if the opposition respects the initial move, Black doesn't have that.

ztilzer31
09-09-2013, 02:25 PM
He actually has decent footwork, what he lacks is touch. Hes got all sorts of counters but you can only go to a counter if the opposition respects the initial move, Black doesn't have that.

The reason why he doesn't get touch is because when he shoots floaters 90% of the time they're off the wrong foot. He constantly shoots off the wrong foot in the post especially when he's shooting farther away from the basket.

Atrocious was too strong of a word. He's probably overall average, but I guess for the expectations he brings, and his talent level I'd have to say he's got bad footwork.

Chronz
09-09-2013, 02:56 PM
The reason why he doesn't get touch is because when he shoots floaters 90% of the time they're off the wrong foot. He constantly shoots off the wrong foot in the post especially when he's shooting farther away from the basket.
You might be right, I honestly havent noticed too much of that but I do notice his unorthodox moves, now they may not be technically sound but because his idea of a post move is to assert brute force, and because he is undersized (height+length) hes had to rely on those kind of moves. Hes gotten better over the years but its possible hes only improving on the wrong ways to play. Doc did mention he wanted to see less post ups for him.


Atrocious was too strong of a word. He's probably overall average, but I guess for the expectations he brings, and his talent level I'd have to say he's got bad footwork.

It can look downright atrocious at times, but in another game, perhaps against an inferior defender, he looks brilliant. I would say around average is good, tho I want to say its better than that.

Clippersfan86
09-09-2013, 03:14 PM
So is the definition of footwork only which foot you jump off on shots lol? How about ballhandling, defense on the ballhandler off switches? Blake has better than average footwork, no question. His post moves themselves are awkward which isn't about his footwork skills, but lack,of experience as I said and depending too much on athleticism during his career. You guys came to terms with average, I'd say a bit above average. Although he just turned 24 and is going into his 4th year. It's no surprised that an athletic based, 4th year big isn't a finished product. Guys like Aldridge get a pass for their flaws after 8 or 9 seasons yet Blake after 3 years is expected to be perfect by so many.

The double standards for Blake are laughable. The people who expect him to be Karl Malone by year 4 are the same ones calling him overrated and saying he doesn't have much upside. Which is it?

Clippersfan86
09-09-2013, 03:19 PM
If a PF can switch onto SG's and successfully get stops, he has good footwork, period.

ztilzer31
09-09-2013, 03:23 PM
So is the definition of footwork only which foot you jump off on shots lol? How about ballhandling, defense on the ballhandler off switches? Blake has better than average footwork, no question. His post moves themselves are awkward which isn't about his footwork skills, but lack,of experience as I said and depending too much on athleticism during his career. You guys came to terms with average, I'd say a bit above average. Although he just turned 24 and is going into his 4th year. It's no surprised that an athletic based, 4th year big isn't a finished product. Guys like Aldridge get a pass for their flaws after 8 or 9 seasons yet Blake after 3 years is expected to be perfect by so many.

When people are talking about footwork offensively 99% of the time it's post work. His defense isn't nearly as bad as people say, except on the weak side.

His post game being awkward is absolutely about footwork. If you see someone shooting a shot that looks awkward most of the time it's failed footwork.

Slow down turbo. We're not saying he can't improve. I'm just saying as of now he's a bit overrated. I personally hope he continues to improve because if he develops that post game he's gonna be dominant offensively. His ceiling is only so high defensively IMO at his position, but offensive PF are becoming very valuable in the NBA today.

Chronz
09-09-2013, 03:25 PM
So is the definition of footwork only which foot you jump off on shots lol? How about ballhandling, defense on the ballhandler off switches? Blake has better than average footwork, no question. His post moves themselves are awkward which isn't about his footwork skills, but lack,of experience as I said and depending too much on athleticism during his career. You guys came to terms with average, I'd say a bit above average. Although he just turned 24 and is going into his 4th year. It's no surprised that an athletic based, 4th year big isn't a finished product. Guys like Aldridge get a pass for their flaws after 8 or 9 seasons yet Blake after 3 years is expected to be perfect by so many.

The double standards for Blake are laughable. The people who expect him to be Karl Malone by year 4 are the same ones calling him overrated and saying he doesn't have much upside. Which is it?

This thread is about Hakeem and the post moves hes tried to ingrain in people. Thats it.. Obviously this is about offense only, specifically post offense.

Chronz
09-09-2013, 03:28 PM
Slow down turbo. We're not saying he can't improve.
You have to forgive our resident Blake luster, just know he eventually calms down.

I never take offense to when people use terms like over/underrated because its not an actual critique, its 100% subjective and totally dependent on what the observer has heard of the player.

Clippersfan86
09-09-2013, 03:33 PM
I understand, I tried not to rant too much. I still don't think it's a lack of footwork skills though. I think it's bad coaching, lack of experience and in the past a lack of desire to use actual post moves. It's mental in other words. Some of the post moves he's pulled off have been amazing. Chronz you remember a game against the Cavs/Varejao I think lasy year very early in the season? He dropped one of the best up and unders I've seen and multiple post moves.

ztilzer31
09-09-2013, 03:36 PM
You have to forgive our resident Blake luster, just know he eventually calms down.

I never take offense to when people use terms like over/underrated because its not an actual critique, its 100% subjective and totally dependent on what the observer has heard of the player.

I wasn't trying to be a dick. I was just making a completely opinion based observation. I completely agree though. Calling someone overrated is how you view other people viewing someone. It's a pretty bland critique.

I hope he improves. If he develops that jumper he's been working on and becomes consistent in the post LAC is a huge contender this year.

Clippersfan86
09-09-2013, 03:37 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5O0cc0I0vk&feature=youtube_gdata_player

I always share this with those that talk about Blake's postgame.

ztilzer31
09-09-2013, 03:38 PM
I understand, I tried not to rant too much. I still don't think it's a lack of footwork skills though. I think it's bad coaching, lack of experience and in the past a lack of desire to use actual post moves. It's mental in other words. Some of the post moves he's pulled off have been amazing. Chronz you remember a game against the Cavs/Varejao I think lasy year very early in the season? He dropped one of the best up and unders I've seen and multiple post moves.

Definitely a possibility. Like it's been mention there are times he looks really good, but he's been inconsistent. Hopefully Doc/Hakeem can help him out. In all honesty if I was a clips fan (which they are probably my favorite team in the West besides the Grizz) there wouldn't be 2 people in the NBA I would want to coach Blake more than Doc, and Hakeem.

Bruno
09-09-2013, 03:42 PM
he's worth it.

the teacher can only take the student so far, there comes a point when the student has to become responsible for his own improvement. some take the lesson to heart, some dont. its on the students not the teacher.

ztilzer31
09-09-2013, 03:44 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5O0cc0I0vk&feature=youtube_gdata_player

I always share this with those that talk about Blake's postgame.

Some of those are nice, but just because they made it doesn't mean they are all good shots. Look at him jump off the wrong foots consistently in this video. He has a great spin move but when he gets stuck and fades away from the basket 90% of the time he's going off the wrong foot or shooting out of the wrong hand.

imagesrdecievin
09-09-2013, 03:44 PM
It's work ethic. No one will become effective after a week's worth of training.

Any basketball clinic isn't to learn a skill - it's to learn an effective training routine that will improve your skill if followed consistently.

ztilzer31
09-09-2013, 03:48 PM
If a PF can switch onto SG's and successfully get stops, he has good footwork, period.

That's completely not true. Look at LBJ. He had terrible post footwork before Hakeem, and he had great defensive footwork already.

However I do think you can make the argument that since he has the ability to defend guards, and has quick enough feet to guard on the perimeter than he sure as hell has the ability to develop the consistent footwork to make consistent post moves.

ztilzer31
09-09-2013, 03:49 PM
This is really fun. It feels like we never talk hardcore basketball on the NBA forum.

ztilzer31
09-09-2013, 04:03 PM
Overall I think he has the ability he just has to show consistency. If he becomes consistent with his footwork, learns how to jump off the right foot (or even better jump off both feet) he will become a dominant offensive PF.

He's got a decent hook, and an excellent spin move. It's when those don't work out and he gets stuck down low where it can get ugly. Especially against good defenders.

Chronz
09-09-2013, 04:17 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5O0cc0I0vk&feature=youtube_gdata_player

I always share this with those that talk about Blake's postgame.

When it comes to those who trash his game and say all he does is dunk, then yes, Im with you. Hes got a much more varied set of skills that people, for whatever reason, refuse to appreciate.

That said, he still has games where he looks like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3TB_ZDZnHI&feature=youtu.be&t=4m

They are the becoming the minority but still, thats pretty bad.

Tony_Starks
09-09-2013, 04:23 PM
Kobe showed the greatest improvement but he already had really good footwork.

But I always laugh when I see bigs like Amare and Dwight go to him now. You've had horrible footwork for years, you're like halfway through your career, and now you figure out you need to add some features to your game?

Chronz
09-09-2013, 04:26 PM
Overall I think he has the ability he just has to show consistency. If he becomes consistent with his footwork, learns how to jump off the right foot (or even better jump off both feet) he will become a dominant offensive PF.

He's got a decent hook, and an excellent spin move. It's when those don't work out and he gets stuck down low where it can get ugly. Especially against good defenders.

Hes too methodical, the first thing Dream teaches post players is to catch and react instinctively. Blake's playmaking ability actually get in the way of his post scoring because he refuses to attack on the catch, even during games you can see CP3 telling him to "JUST GO" sometimes.

I think he jumps off 1 leg because its a way to compensate for the indecisiveness since he doesn't have to gather for the leap.

Potential is still there tho, hes developing at a different rate from most players, hes honed his court awareness before his own individual scoring. Hes the anti-Melo, the anti-Dream. Dream took FOREVER to master the art of playmaking, not sure which is better. I dont even think mimicking Dream would be a good move for him, Malone+Chuck is the hybrid he should become.

lamzoka
09-09-2013, 04:32 PM
Overrated? Not sure.

$50,000 DEFINITELY overpriced.

50Gs is a lot...
... BUT 50Gs out of $100M

Clippersfan86
09-09-2013, 04:41 PM
Ztiler you make some good points. I don't disagree with your last couple posts. The potential, work ethic and skills are there.

D-Leethal
09-09-2013, 04:54 PM
If a PF can switch onto SG's and successfully get stops, he has good footwork, period.

Footwork in the post and having lateral speed are so far from being even remotely close to the same thing its not even funny.

Clippersfan86
09-09-2013, 05:17 PM
Footwork in the post and having lateral speed are so far from being even remotely close to the same thing its not even funny.

If you don't think footwork rather than pure foot speed factors into defense, you likely never could defend. There is plenty of footwork involved on the defensive end, maybe more.

Clippersfan86
09-09-2013, 05:18 PM
Hes too methodical, the first thing Dream teaches post players is to catch and react instinctively. Blake's playmaking ability actually get in the way of his post scoring because he refuses to attack on the catch, even during games you can see CP3 telling him to "JUST GO" sometimes.

I think he jumps off 1 leg because its a way to compensate for the indecisiveness since he doesn't have to gather for the leap.

Potential is still there tho, hes developing at a different rate from most players, hes honed his court awareness before his own individual scoring. Hes the anti-Melo, the anti-Dream. Dream took FOREVER to master the art of playmaking, not sure which is better. I dont even think mimicking Dream would be a good move for him, Malone+Chuck is the hybrid he should become.

Awesome post. Agree the passiveness and overpassing is an issue.

ztilzer31
09-09-2013, 05:19 PM
Ztiler you make some good points. I don't disagree with your last couple posts. The potential, work ethic and skills are there.

Thank you. You're probably use to tons of posters just saying he just dunks, and you reacted quickly. It's understandable. I do the same thing. A lot actually.

Honestly he's one of my favorite players but if I just ignore his weaknesses I might as well just not even post. I don't want him turning into another Shawn Kemp like we had in Seattle. He's got more skills than that, and I do agree with you that people don't appreciate his entire game.

Clippersfan86
09-09-2013, 05:36 PM
Tilzer that's exactly it. I get annoyed with so many clueless people saying "he dunks, nothing else". Now that I see you aren't like that and were being sincere it's easier to not be defensive. I feel like Blake has become the most criticized player in the league despite being a Kobe like worker, a true class act and a generally great person.

If he was a cocky trash talker who ran his mouth a lot to the media I'd understand the backlash. Thing is most people zero in on his flaws and act like he's a role player. You're a Sonics fan? Payton is my favorite all time player and the Sonics were the team that got me interested in the NBA around 96. Then I dedicated my fandom to the Clips around 98 or 99.

ztilzer31
09-09-2013, 05:59 PM
Tilzer that's exactly it. I get annoyed with so many clueless people saying "he dunks, nothing else". Now that I see you aren't like that and were being sincere it's easier to not be defensive. I feel like Blake has become the most criticized player in the league despite being a Kobe like worker, a true class act and a generally great person.

If he was a cocky trash talker who ran his mouth a lot to the media I'd understand the backlash. Thing is most people zero in on his flaws and act like he's a role player. You're a Sonics fan? Payton is my favorite all time player and the Sonics were the team that got me interested in the NBA around 96. Then I dedicated my fandom to the Clips around 98 or 99.

Yeah. I'm from Seattle. Payton was a boss. Might never see a defender at the PG position that good ever again. Only player to ever guard Jordan and hold him to under 30 points in 3 consecutive games in the playoffs.

Blake is hilarious. TIGER JUMP!


Edit: Or finals... I can't remember... I just read that somewhere a couple days ago.

Clippersfan86
09-09-2013, 06:24 PM
Also Payton,got injured that series. If he hadn't, Seattle wins the title IMO. Lol that Rage commercial.

ztilzer31
09-09-2013, 06:41 PM
Also Payton,got injured that series. If he hadn't, Seattle wins the title IMO. Lol that Rage commercial.

Yeah strained quad or something. Didn't get put on Jordan till game 4. Then we signed Jim Mccilvaine to a ridiculous contract and fired George Karl in the next couple years. It's like we were trying to **** ourselves over.

All good though. CP3/Blake have completely different games, but they definitely remind me of Payton/Kemp.

ztilzer31
09-09-2013, 06:46 PM
Bulls just had too much offense though. Those guys around Jordan really don't get enough credit for that series. Probably Jordan's worst playoff series, and people really overlook how he played once Payton was in... We still remember in Seattle though! Chicago just had so much fire power back then, and we had no one like Rodman.

I don't care what anyone says Rodman was the finals MVP that series. He was the main reason we lost. That's why we panicked and picked up Mcilvaine the next year. Of course it's blasphemy to even suggest that so...

Clippersfan86
09-09-2013, 07:25 PM
Lol I used to love Jim and Detlef on Kobe Bryant Courtside on N64. Those guys were so cheese.

Chronz
09-09-2013, 07:41 PM
To be frank, the Sonics had no business being in the Finals. Rockets should have advanced......



Anyways, back to the topic. Hakeem said Shaq was a very quick learner or something like that back in the day.

ztilzer31
09-09-2013, 08:45 PM
To be frank, the Sonics had no business being in the Finals. Rockets should have advanced......



Anyways, back to the topic. Hakeem said Shaq was a very quick learner or something like that back in the day.

I think you're getting your years mixed up bud. I think you're referring to the 93 series. We swept the Rockets in 96.

Did Hakeem work with Shaq? I know Shaq always said great things about Hakeem, and has a lot of respect for him.

ztilzer31
09-09-2013, 08:51 PM
Kemp/Schrempf was my **** in NBA Jam.

Oh come on can't we just have a big Sonic circle jerk Chronz. Jeez lol :). It's all we got left of em :(.

Chronz
09-09-2013, 09:24 PM
I think you're getting your years mixed up bud. I think you're referring to the 93 series. We swept the Rockets in 96.

Did Hakeem work with Shaq? I know Shaq always said great things about Hakeem, and has a lot of respect for him.
No confusion, just alot of jealousy


Shaq worked out with him his rookie year IIRC.

Meaze_Gibson
09-09-2013, 10:06 PM
yes he is worth it. Dwight worked with him one summer (2010) and had his best offensive output. Even though the Magic lost in 1st round, Howard looked comfortable and majority unstoppable during that postseason.

As soon as lebron worked with Hakeem he started winning chips. Say what you want but it was his postgame that helped them beat the pacers and celtics. In 2011 we see Lebron scared to post jason terry. After hakeem we see him killing paul george in the post. Once again he made Bron get comfortable down there.

After working with Hakeem in the post Carmelo had arguably the best offensive season of his career. Amare also looked good post hakeem training both offensively and defensively.

Kobe Bryant is another player who went off to train with hakeem. the trainings led to championship seasons for him as well.

Hakeems trainings seem to be highly effective and usually end up with players having career/Championship years. Thats worth 50 thousand to me.

ztilzer31
09-09-2013, 10:58 PM
No confusion, just alot of jealousy


Shaq worked out with him his rookie year IIRC.

Wow I had no idea.

Sssmush
09-09-2013, 11:31 PM
My impression is that it's kind of an ego trip for Hakeem. If you ask me, players are being kind of stupid if they pay $50k to get some "pro tips" from Hakeem and then have him blab to the media about why they aren't as good as they could be (if only they were Hakeem).

ztilzer31
09-09-2013, 11:37 PM
My impression is that it's kind of an ego trip for Hakeem. If you ask me, players are being kind of stupid if they pay $50k to get some "pro tips" from Hakeem and then have him blab to the media about why they aren't as good as they could be (if only they were Hakeem).

The man is a hall of famer. NBA champion. MVP winner. He's got 2 doctorates. Plus all the players that were previously mentioned that he's helped.

50k is a deal.

Clippersfan86
09-09-2013, 11:45 PM
Kemp/Schrempf was my **** in NBA Jam.

Oh come on can't we just have a big Sonic circle jerk Chronz. Jeez lol :). It's all we got left of em :(.

Hahaha. Be glad you guys DIDN'T get the extremely flawed, messed up Kings franchise last year. I think you guys will get a new team within a few years.

ztilzer31
09-09-2013, 11:49 PM
Hahaha. Be glad you guys DIDN'T get the extremely flawed, messed up Kings franchise last year. I think you guys will get a new team within a few years.

God I hope so. I'm pretty sure Phil Jackson wants to be a part of the team. I can only hope... Next 5 years... Maybe.

Clippersfan86
09-10-2013, 12:15 AM
Phil flat out said that's the only job he WOULD have taken. He liked the foundation of buyers that much. If Seattle got PJ out of retirement that would be so amazing for your new franchise. Seattle easily has one of the best, most legit fanbases and I want you guys to get a team soon like most people.

ztilzer31
09-10-2013, 12:56 AM
Phil flat out said that's the only job he WOULD have taken. He liked the foundation of buyers that much. If Seattle got PJ out of retirement that would be so amazing for your new franchise. Seattle easily has one of the best, most legit fanbases and I want you guys to get a team soon like most people.

Yeah I hope Hansen didn't completely screw his chances of getting a team. I do think he's a good guy that just got caught up in the middle of stuff. He's got the money, and he seems to know a lot of people in basketball somehow.

Expansion is out of the question right now. I don't think the league should expand, and I don't blame them for not. However the new CBA seems to be spreading the talent a little more evenly. I mean look at the western conference. Hopefully the NBA gets more talented in the next couple years (there are gonna be some amazing drafts in the next 3 years).

THE MTL
09-10-2013, 12:59 AM
I beg to differ about Kobe. I think his post game greatly improved after working with Hakeem.

arlubas
09-10-2013, 08:16 AM
Shaq worked out with him his rookie year IIRC.
First time I've heard of this and I have to say it does sound kind of fishy than an active player would give tips to one of the most talented guys at his position, especially an up and coming one like Shaq. Sounds more like some kind of urban legend imo than an actual thing.


I beg to differ about Kobe. I think his post game greatly improved after working with Hakeem.
I don't think anyone argues it improved. The only thing people debate is that Kobe had one of the most fluid footwork in the L anyway so it was more easy for him to adapt to Hakeem's teachings.

Mr.ATLHawks
09-10-2013, 09:41 AM
More clueless Blake Griffin analysis. He has FANTASTIC footwork and coordination. His post game can look awkward at times but it's not related to footwork at all. It's related to poor coaching and lack of experience in the post. He's always been so athletically gifted that he never had to slow it down in the post before. When he does though he shows plenty of flashes of incredible oost work. His up and under moves and hook shots off the spin are downright beautiful sometimes. I agree he needs Hakeem because unlike 99 percent of other bigs Blake has the quickness, footwork, IQ, explosiveness and touch to really utilize it to the max.

This. Blake is probably one of the few that Hakeem can truly teach his moves to and have the ability to actually do them successfully.

ztilzer31
09-10-2013, 12:45 PM
This. Blake is probably one of the few that Hakeem can truly teach his moves to and have the ability to actually do them successfully.

I don't think anyone is in disagreement that Blake has the ability to get consistent footwork. As of right now he's just not consistent enough.

I personally love Hakeem, and think he could turn Blake into the best scorer (maybe even best PF) int he NBA. However like I said I love Hakeem. Favorite center of all time.

Clippersfan86
09-10-2013, 01:40 PM
It's kind of tricky though. Like Chronz rightfully brought up... do we want Blake to try to be Hakeem (a center who was far more skilled than Blake) or do we want him to go the Barkley/Malone road (PF's with similar skill sets early in career). I'd argue like Chronz that it's possible we may not even WANT the guy to try to be Hakeem. No doubt he can improve under Hakeem and utilize Hakeem's teachings but is it IDEAL for him.

What I would REALLY love is if Blake had the guts to flat out call Barkley and ask him to be his mentor. Pride from players usually prevents this and sure Barkley trashes the Clippers a lot, but it would be great for him. If Blake could get that Barkley mentality on the court.... the rest of his game would come around and he could be an MVP candidate. That's his UPSIDE.

Joshtd1
09-10-2013, 02:19 PM
First time I've heard of this and I have to say it does sound kind of fishy than an active player would give tips to one of the most talented guys at his position, especially an up and coming one like Shaq. Sounds more like some kind of urban legend imo than an actual thing.

Well it could be true..for example Tim Duncan has been working out with Roy Hibbert for the last few summers to help his game.

ztilzer31
09-10-2013, 02:38 PM
First time I've heard of this and I have to say it does sound kind of fishy than an active player would give tips to one of the most talented guys at his position, especially an up and coming one like Shaq. Sounds more like some kind of urban legend imo than an actual thing.


I don't think anyone argues it improved. The only thing people debate is that Kobe had one of the most fluid footwork in the L anyway so it was more easy for him to adapt to Hakeem's teachings.

It's actually a lot more common then you think.

Also don't think of Hakeem helping Shaq. They are helping each other, and making each other better. Why do you think KD and LBJ work together in the offseason? Best players in the NBA.

I'm sure Shaq didn't pay Hakeem 50k to work out together though lol.

ztilzer31
09-10-2013, 02:44 PM
It's kind of tricky though. Like Chronz rightfully brought up... do we want Blake to try to be Hakeem (a center who was far more skilled than Blake) or do we want him to go the Barkley/Malone road (PF's with similar skill sets early in career). I'd argue like Chronz that it's possible we may not even WANT the guy to try to be Hakeem. No doubt he can improve under Hakeem and utilize Hakeem's teachings but is it IDEAL for him.

What I would REALLY love is if Blake had the guts to flat out call Barkley and ask him to be his mentor. Pride from players usually prevents this and sure Barkley trashes the Clippers a lot, but it would be great for him. If Blake could get that Barkley mentality on the court.... the rest of his game would come around and he could be an MVP candidate. That's his UPSIDE.

Barkley is a long shot if you ask me. Barkley was freakishly strong and athletic, but more on the strong side. Blake is strong and athletic, but more on the athletic side.

Maybe you don't really want him to "be Hakeem" but it definitely wouldn't hurt to gain his post up. I just think his post game already looks more natural than his rebounding.

We'll see I really don't know **** about technique and what not when it comes to rebounding. It would be nice if he could be a 25-15 guy, but that might be overshooting a bit. I kind of see him as at best a 28/10 guy. However if he was able to pick up some stuff from Barkley it's not a bad idea.

Barkley ain't gonna help him on his weak side defense though. Blake is one of the worst starting PF's in the NBA coming off the weak side defensively. He's actually above average coming from the other side of the basket though. Barkley can't help him there. Not at all. Blake's ceiling is only so high defensively, but if he can at least get to average on the weak side... Because as of right now he can really be a liability defensively in the paint.

ztilzer31
09-10-2013, 02:50 PM
If I had a to do list it would be this for Blake.

1. Work on your post defense.
2. Work on your post game.
3. Develop a new go to post move, and work on your hook shot.


Chronz says Doc plans on making him post less. He's actually good coming off the dribble. Something people don't give him credit for. Also Chronz nailed it when it comes to being decisive. He needs to get the ball and go sometimes. Over thinking things maybe. Never good to be reacting to your defender. I expect to see you guys run tons of PnR and try to use more speed. You guys have an athletic team, and even though posting up is important running the floor is how today's NBA is played.

Chronz
09-10-2013, 02:53 PM
Shaq worked out with him his rookie year IIRC.
First time I've heard of this and I have to say it does sound kind of fishy than an active player would give tips to one of the most talented guys at his position, especially an up and coming one like Shaq. Sounds more like some kind of urban legend imo than an actual thing.

Nah man, it actually happened, read Dreams bio, comes straight from his mouth.
The only thing I dont remember is if it came his rookie year or possibly sooner.

Dream doesnt fear competition, he wants to breed the very best in hopes of attaining an even greater level of play. Moses did it for him remember..

Clippersfan86
09-10-2013, 03:05 PM
Barkley is a long shot if you ask me. Barkley was freakishly strong and athletic, but more on the strong side. Blake is strong and athletic, but more on the athletic side.

Maybe you don't really want him to "be Hakeem" but it definitely wouldn't hurt to gain his post up. I just think his post game already looks more natural than his rebounding.

We'll see I really don't know **** about technique and what not when it comes to rebounding. It would be nice if he could be a 25-15 guy, but that might be overshooting a bit. I kind of see him as at best a 28/10 guy. However if he was able to pick up some stuff from Barkley it's not a bad idea.

Barkley ain't gonna help him on his weak side defense though. Blake is one of the worst starting PF's in the NBA coming off the weak side defensively. He's actually above average coming from the other side of the basket though. Barkley can't help him there. Not at all. Blake's ceiling is only so high defensively, but if he can at least get to average on the weak side... Because as of right now he can really be a liability defensively in the paint.

I agree with him being more likely to be an Amare like 28/10 guy than a Barkley 25/15 type. His defense took a huge leap last year and I agree post defense is his weak point defensively. His strength defensively is one on one defense and helping on ballhandlers because his quickness allows him to trap wing players effectively (like KG does).

Clippersfan86
09-10-2013, 03:09 PM
If I had a to do list it would be this for Blake.

1. Work on your post defense.
2. Work on your post game.
3. Develop a new go to post move, and work on your hook shot.


Chronz says Doc plans on making him post less. He's actually good coming off the dribble. Something people don't give him credit for. Also Chronz nailed it when it comes to being decisive. He needs to get the ball and go sometimes. Over thinking things maybe. Never good to be reacting to your defender. I expect to see you guys run tons of PnR and try to use more speed. You guys have an athletic team, and even though posting up is important running the floor is how today's NBA is played.

Well Doc and Gentry said they are going to use Griffin from the elbow more like KG/Amare and less backing people down 15 feet, which I agree with. I also have said dozens of times that Griffin absolutely gets too passive. Although this problem only occurred when CP3 got to the team and he seems to have accepted a back seat. He needs to go back to the ATTACK, ATTACK, ATTACK rookie mentality. CP3 and the coaching staff also need to do a far better job of utilizing Blake though. Too many times he's getting the ball from 20 feet with 4 seconds left on a shotclock. CP3 needs to remember he's NOT David West. He doesn't have a money 18 footer yet.

I can't tell you how many times Blake has about 15/8 at halftime.. only to get just two more touches per quarter after halftime. The team needs to find a way to run the offense through him CONSISTENTLY and let CP3 focus on playmaking more and defense. CP3 having to carry so much of the load offensively is bad for his health as well as the team. Sure when aggressive he's easily the best scorer we have and the most clutch player. Ideally though he will be a 2nd or 3rd scoring option for us with Blake and another guy scoring 15+ every night.

My top 3 things he needs to focus on.

1. Midrange jumper
2. Rebounding
3. Aggression overall

The defense isn't as important to zone in on because he's made such defensive strides every year and as you said his defensive upside isn't too incredible to begin with. Last year he became a slightly above average all around defender after being a terrible one his rookie year. If he can just make one more leap to above average by a fair margin, he will be fine defensively. I want his shot to come first so people stop cheapshotting him and he can preserve his body longer. Although he's shooting more outside there is zero reason he can't grab 11-12 rebounds per game. Although Vinny idiotically played him 32 min per game which hurt it... even 10 rpg PER 36 is too low for a player with his motor and rebounding ability. His overall aggression and mentality NEEDS to step up and he said it will, so I believe him.

I'm expecting something like 22/11/4 from Blake this year. Basically his rookie numbers but with more efficiency and defense. If he didn't have so much talent around him I'd expect more but that's a fair goal for him. If he goes back to a normal range of 37-38 minutes.. he only needs to increase his rebounding 1 per game, scoring 2 per game and assists .3 per game to hit those goals per minute over last year. Last year he put up 20/10/3.5+ PER 36.

ztilzer31
09-10-2013, 05:43 PM
I think his efficiency is going to be the real question offensively. I'd like him to score more, but his efficiency is going to be on close watch.

Doc plans on Blake being a huge part of this offense. I'm sure of it. Maybe not in the post, but Blake is their most explosive player, and needs to get the ball.

Clippersfan86
09-10-2013, 06:18 PM
When he's aggressive he's one most unstoppable and efficient scorers. So often he has nearly 20 by halftime but then doesn't get the ball in the second half.

ztilzer31
09-10-2013, 08:03 PM
When he's aggressive he's one most unstoppable and efficient scorers. So often he has nearly 20 by halftime but then doesn't get the ball in the second half.

Might just be part of his pass first mentality. Just doesn't want to be too selfish. Who knows though. It's hard to tell from a fan's perspective.

Chronz
09-10-2013, 08:07 PM
Might just be part of his pass first mentality. Just doesn't want to be too selfish. Who knows though. It's hard to tell from a fan's perspective.

Its 90 to 100% him. Its VERY telling that when Blake isn't on the court, CP3 sees his usage increase dramatically, he gets this tunnel vision about him that I wish he would play with more often sometimes. Whereas Blake sees his assist numbers improve but nothing in the way of scoring or efficiency whenever CP3 isn't on the court with him. Not that its necessarily a bad thing, I care more about how the team performs with both on the court than anything else but it still shows you Blake's mindset.

Clippersfan86
09-10-2013, 08:12 PM
Its 90 to 100% him. Its VERY telling that when Blake isn't on the court, CP3 sees his usage increase dramatically, he gets this tunnel vision about him that I wish he would play with more often sometimes. Whereas Blake sees his assist numbers improve but nothing in the way of scoring or efficiency whenever CP3 isn't on the court with him. Not that its necessarily a bad thing, I care more about how the team performs with both on the court than anything else but it still shows you Blake's mindset.

Yea I agree it's up to Blake. I think CP3 would feed him more if he showed more aggressive. CP3 probably doesn't like feeding him.. only to have him pause 10 seconds and pass it back out. I DO think CP3 can be a bit more risky and throw more lobs for easy buckets like Baron Davis was so great at (Griffin will catch them 90 percent of the time) but Blake needs to man up. Enough over dribbling and passing. Catch and ATTACK! That's what I'd be screaming at him all game if I was a coach. I mean don't get me wrong, passing and being unselfish is great but we don't need our PF to try and play PG. We need him to rebound and score 20+ every night.

ztilzer31
09-10-2013, 10:24 PM
Its 90 to 100% him. Its VERY telling that when Blake isn't on the court, CP3 sees his usage increase dramatically, he gets this tunnel vision about him that I wish he would play with more often sometimes. Whereas Blake sees his assist numbers improve but nothing in the way of scoring or efficiency whenever CP3 isn't on the court with him. Not that its necessarily a bad thing, I care more about how the team performs with both on the court than anything else but it still shows you Blake's mindset.

Well hopefully he starts believing in himself a little more. Like we've been saying the skills are there. He hast the ability to be an offensive force. Just needs to remember why the Clippers signed. Wasn't just to sell tickets that's for sure.... Even though that might of been part of it :).

I'll be watching early to see what Doc has him doing. I hope he does work more on his post, but I guess if Doc isn't gonna have him there much than maybe it's not the best idea.

KG21
09-11-2013, 05:53 AM
Why do you think that the dream is the problem, when he is just a mentor. Players who can't use his tips or movies to better themselves are overrated. And anyone should learn this stuff on their own or by watching footage of others who played the game in case they don't want to pay 50K. But what dream does is a charity and those who went to The dream, and didn't use his tips are fools!

5ass
09-11-2013, 08:11 AM
this is extremely off topic but im laughing my *** off at this..
http://youtu.be/IVCFj57Kf6Y?t=4m4s

listen to his voice when he says "i get pissed off". :laugh:

ztilzer31
09-11-2013, 01:00 PM
this is extremely off topic but im laughing my *** off at this..
http://youtu.be/IVCFj57Kf6Y?t=4m4s

listen to his voice when he says "i get pissed off". :laugh:

I feel like I can't really scold you considering I think I've taken this thread off topic probably 4 or 5 times in the last 4 pages.

PurpleLynch
09-11-2013, 03:08 PM
Man,Hakeem's workouts are steroids for the post. Just look at James or Stoudmire or Bryant. But they need to practice the post. Some players that go to the camp are also overrated for now(Faried or McGee).Howard doesn't seem to try to put on real games what he learnt with Hakeem,he just has too much confidence in his body and tries everytime to dunk,but he ain't Shaq.