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Clippersfan86
09-06-2013, 04:05 AM
Was thinking about this tonight and figured it might make for a good debate topic. It's pretty much universally agreed upon that the top 3 PF's all time are Duncan, Barkley and Malone. The next tier to close up the top 5 is made up of KG and Dirk IMO. So the question is between these two who has a greater career legacy? Who would YOU rather have as your superstar trying to win a ring? Who do you feel was the better player in general? Here are some of the accolades and career numbers.

Dirk:

NBA champion (2011)
NBA Finals MVP (2011)
NBA Most Valuable Player (2007)
11 NBA All-Star (20022012)
4 All-NBA First Team (20052007, 2009)
5 All-NBA Second Team (20022003, 2008, 20102011)
3 All-NBA Third Team (2001, 2004, 2012)



Only player in the NBA with 150 three-pointers and 100 blocks in a single season: 2001[106]

One of only four players with an NBA Playoff career average of 25 ppg and 10 rpg (25.9 ppg, 10.3 rpg, May 5, 2012)

Became the fifth member of the 504090 Club: 2007

One of eleven players to have been NBA Champion, NBA regular season MVP, NBA Finals MVP and a 10 NBA All-Star

One of only three players to surpass the mark of 1,000 in both three-pointers and blocks for the career

One of only nine players to surpass the marks of 25,000 in points and 9,000 in rebounds for the career


Career averages of: 22.6 ppg, 8.2 rpg, 2.6 apg, 1 spg and 1 bpg. Career playoff averages of 26 ppg, 10.3 rpg, 2.6 apg.





KG:

NBA champion (2008)
NBA Most Valuable Player (2004)
15 NBA All-Star (19971998, 20002011, 2013)
NBA All-Star Game MVP (2003)
NBA Defensive Player of the Year (2008)
4 All-NBA First Team (2000, 20032004, 2008)
3 All-NBA Second Team (20012002, 2005)
2 All-NBA Third Team (1999, 2007)
9 NBA All-Defensive First Team (20002005, 20082009, 2011)
3 NBA All-Defensive Second Team (20062007, 2012)
NBA All-Rookie Second Team (1996)



Only player in NBA history to reach at least 25,000 points, 10,000 rebounds, 5,000 assists, 1,500 steals and 1,500 blocks in his career

Only player in NBA history to average at least 20 points, 10 rebounds and 5 assists per game for 6 consecutive seasons (19992000200405)

Only player in NBA history to average at least 20 points, 10 rebounds and 4 assists per game for 9 consecutive seasons (199899200607)



Career averages of: 19.1 ppg, 10.5 rpg, 3.9 apg, 1.3 spg, 1.5 bpg. Playoff averages are pretty much identical.






My personal thought.

Better all around player: KG
Who I'd build around: Dirk
Higher ranking all time: Dirk


I'm taking Dirk because unlike KG he's proven time and time again he steps up in big moments. He's the undisputed, dominant go to guy who can carry a team. He has less accolades and wasn't as good of an all around player but his clutch and playoff play gives him a career edge IMO. When KG didn't have other stars he had perennial first round exits, where as Dirk regularly got out of the first round with no Pierce or Allen caliber player next to him.

5ass
09-06-2013, 06:27 AM
Kg. Sometimes he played 3 different positions for his team. He's a perfect PF IMO. All he needed was an allstar center and some shooters and defenders around them to win championships.

bagwell368
09-06-2013, 06:50 AM
Was thinking about this tonight and figured it might make for a good debate topic. It's pretty much universally agreed upon that the top 3 PF's all time are Duncan, Barkley and Malone.

I don't agree. It's TD and KG 1 and 2.


The next tier to close up the top 5 is made up of KG and Dirk IMO. So the question is between these two who has a greater career legacy? Who would YOU rather have as your superstar trying to win a ring? Who do you feel was the better player in general? Here are some of the accolades and career numbers.

Dirk is a great player, but he's clearly focused on offense, and can bag his share of D rebounds. KG is more amped on D, and his D is the equal of Dirk's O, but KG's O blasts Dirk's D without a shadow of a doubt.


Only player in the NBA with 150 three-pointers and 100 blocks in a single season: 2001

Ummmm.... so?

Where are the D stats? You don't offer one outside of DReb embedded in TRB....

KG:


Only player in NBA history to reach at least 25,000 points, 10,000 rebounds, 5,000 assists, 1,500 steals and 1,500 blocks in his career

Now that has some meat to it.


Better all around player: KG
Who I'd build around: Dirk
Higher ranking all time: Dirk

I'm taking Dirk because unlike KG he's proven time and time again he steps up in big moments. He's the undisputed, dominant go to guy who can carry a team. He has less accolades and wasn't as good of an all around player but his clutch and playoff play gives him a career edge IMO. When KG didn't have other stars he had perennial first round exits, where as Dirk regularly got out of the first round with no Pierce or Allen caliber player next to him.

Higher ranking IMO is clearly KG. One thing you haven't mentioned is that KG is 23 months and 2 seasons more advanced into his age decline than Dirk, let's see what happens to Dirk's averages and percentages with extra years put on - or remove those two years from KG.

Another thing is you haven't given KG his well earned edge over Dirk in passing and assists.

It's funny that you mention KG's playoff stats are the same as his in season stats - then go ahead and give KG a kick in the tail over alleged playoff failures. Shallow teams with one star see a lot of defense aimed at that one player - or haven't you noticed?

KG has played 1454 NBA games, Dirk 1236. If it's as close as you claim, then KG must win on longevity - or take away his last two seasons (down to 1300 games) to make up for his age, and then take off his first two years when he was 20 and 21, and focus on the core of his career and Dirk's from age 22 thru age 34 inclusive and you get KG tops Dirk is what you get.

leprechaun5
09-06-2013, 06:59 AM
Every time i want to say something about KG ,bagwell says it all .

KG21
09-06-2013, 07:21 AM
I don't agree. It's TD and KG 1 and 2.



Dirk is a great player, but he's clearly focused on offense, and can bag his share of D rebounds. KG is more amped on D, and his D is the equal of Dirk's O, but KG's O blasts Dirk's D without a shadow of a doubt.



Ummmm.... so?

Where are the D stats? You don't offer one outside of DReb embedded in TRB....

KG:



Now that has some meat to it.



Higher ranking IMO is clearly KG. One thing you haven't mentioned is that KG is 23 months and 2 seasons more advanced into his age decline than Dirk, let's see what happens to Dirk's averages and percentages with extra years put on - or remove those two years from KG.

Another thing is you haven't given KG his well earned edge over Dirk in passing and assists.

It's funny that you mention KG's playoff stats are the same as his in season stats - then go ahead and give KG a kick in the tail over alleged playoff failures. Shallow teams with one star see a lot of defense aimed at that one player - or haven't you noticed?

KG has played 1454 NBA games, Dirk 1236. If it's as close as you claim, then KG must win on longevity - or take away his last two seasons (down to 1300 games) to make up for his age, and then take off his first two years when he was 20 and 21, and focus on the core of his career and Dirk's from age 22 thru age 34 inclusive and you get KG tops Dirk is what you get.

Listen to this man.

Plus, Dirk is not even close to all around player as KG is.

PurpleLynch
09-06-2013, 07:34 AM
Kg obviously,even if I like Dirk,but Kg is the best player without doubt.

PhillyFaninLA
09-06-2013, 07:45 AM
If Garnett was on a better team for most of his career this question would not have been asked. Garnett is one of the best bigs ever and Dirk is only very good.

bloomis1307
09-06-2013, 08:01 AM
Give me KG and his defense

Hellcrooner
09-06-2013, 08:16 AM
what kind of joke is this?


Kg is second only to Duncan.
Thats it.

Dirk is the second most overated dude in the ****ing history of the game just behind Iverson.

Hawkeye15
09-06-2013, 10:05 AM
KG for sure. Much better two way player over his career.

Chronz
09-06-2013, 10:10 AM
Its not a joke, KG isn't the no brainer people wish he were, he shrunk in big moments unlike Dirk. Dirk actually raised his game come post season IMO.

Hellcrooner
09-06-2013, 10:22 AM
Its not a joke, KG isn't the no brainer people wish he were, he shrunk in big moments unlike Dirk. Dirk actually raised his game come post season IMO.


Golden , State, Warriors.


With other " main guy" probably dallas wins 2 or 3 rings during the last 12 years.

C_Mund
09-06-2013, 10:41 AM
I'm a huge Dirk supporter and it's clear that he's one of the most unique players that basketball has ever seen. I hate KG because he seems like an idiot, and a very very strange person. Not just because he's arrogant and competitive, but doing stuff like getting on all fours and barking at a dude in the middle of the game just makes me thing he's an honest-to-goodness nutcase.

.....but I'd take KG hands down. He'd need a primary creator on his team because that's not his role, the same way that Dirk needed Chandler for D/Rebounds/Blocks. But KG can basically do it all for a team (In a historic way) until crunch-time buckets, which is the only thing Dirk really has on him.

Hawkeye15
09-06-2013, 11:01 AM
Its not a joke, KG isn't the no brainer people wish he were, he shrunk in big moments unlike Dirk. Dirk actually raised his game come post season IMO.

sure, but when you factor in complete career, KG was the superior two way player. Highly efficient, and a monster defender/rebounder.

DreamShaker
09-06-2013, 12:30 PM
I think Barkley, KG, Malone, and Dirk are all close, but I would take KG over all of them except maybe a prime Barkley. He is the total package.

flea
09-06-2013, 12:34 PM
The only PFs I'd take over KG are Duncan and Barkley - and I'm not willing to defend Barkley being better than KG. I just like his skillset.

HYFR
09-06-2013, 12:37 PM
Yea kg's defense is the difference here

beasted86
09-06-2013, 12:47 PM
It never stops amazing me how people will compare two guys with an ocean sized difference in the defensive side of the court, yet a way smaller difference on the offensive side of the court, and they will pick the offensive guy anyway.

I wonder if there are owners, GMs and coaches who subscribe to this same foolish logic and that's why some teams will always have a glass ceiling.

I think it's clear as day KG > Dirk every single time. Just like in the thread last week or whatever Payton > Nash every single time. I am clearly defensive biased or something.

JasonJohnHorn
09-06-2013, 12:50 PM
Garnett easily. FAR better rebounder, FAR better defender. Close to equals offensively, though Dirk has more range.

JasonJohnHorn
09-06-2013, 12:55 PM
Its not a joke, KG isn't the no brainer people wish he were, he shrunk in big moments unlike Dirk. Dirk actually raised his game come post season IMO.

I won't argue this. Dirk has been big in certain moments, but he has had his share of playoff failures as well. The interesting thing is that Dirk couldn't win until he had a strong defensive center: Chandler.

Adversely, though, Garnett needed a strong offensive player like Peirce or Allen.

Still... the defense and rebounding counts for a lot in my book. I gotta go with Garnett.

Clippersfan86
09-06-2013, 01:14 PM
WTH at people saying KG is the number 2 PF all time ahead of Malone and Barkley. I think I've discovered who else PSD collectively homers and protects around here. Like Chronz said (and I said in the OP) doesn't stepping up huge every time in the playoffs count for something? KG's career playoff averages are the SAME as his career averages in the regular season. Dirk on the other hand has a MASSIVE jump in stats and has top 5 all time career playoff stats.

Also why is everybody talking about KG's defense to me? I posted his defensive accolades and flat out SAID multiple times in the OP that KG's the more well rounded, better all around player. You can be more one dimensional and more dominant. You can rank higher all time than a more all around player.

Clippersfan86
09-06-2013, 01:19 PM
Garnett easily. FAR better rebounder, FAR better defender. Close to equals offensively, though Dirk has more range.

Close to equal scorer? KG has ZERO seasons at 25 ppg or better, Dirk has five. Dirk's CAREER season average is 22 ppg, playoffs 26 ppg. KG's career season and playoff average is 19 ppg. Dirk has almost as big of an offensive edge over KG and KG does a defensive one. The past 5-6 years Dirk's been a slightly above average defender. Not great and nowhere near KG level but he's not bad on defense by any stretch of the imagination.

todu82
09-06-2013, 01:26 PM
Garnett

BigDFan85
09-06-2013, 01:28 PM
what kind of joke is this?


Kg is second only to Duncan.
Thats it.

Dirk is the second most overated dude in the ****ing history of the game just behind Iverson.

This is quite possibly the most ignorant thing ever posted on PSD. That 2011 Championship doesn't happen without him. Hell, that team probably wouldn't have made the playoffs.

Hawkeye15
09-06-2013, 01:36 PM
Close to equal scorer? KG has ZERO seasons at 25 ppg or better, Dirk has five. Dirk's CAREER season average is 22 ppg, playoffs 26 ppg. KG's career season and playoff average is 19 ppg. Dirk has almost as big of an offensive edge over KG and KG does a defensive one. The past 5-6 years Dirk's been a slightly above average defender. Not great and nowhere near KG level but he's not bad on defense by any stretch of the imagination.

you act like KG is Dwight scoring wise. Throughout his prime, a PER in the mid to high 20s, averaging around 22 a night. How many all defensive teams has Dirk been on (0)? How many times has Dirk average 5 dimes a game from the PF spot (never)? How many times has Dirk averaged 10 boards a game (never)?

The ONLY reason this is a debate is that KG had some underachieving playoff runs.

Hawkeye15
09-06-2013, 01:36 PM
This is quite possibly the most ignorant thing ever posted on PSD. That 2011 Championship doesn't happen without him. Hell, that team probably wouldn't have made the playoffs.

I love Crooner, but his love of Gasol means that he has to put down the one PF in history not american born that is better than his guy.

SportsFanatic10
09-06-2013, 01:38 PM
i honestly don't know how this is a question. kg for sure.

STL Don
09-06-2013, 01:49 PM
Tim Duncan
Karl Malone
KG
Dirk Nowitzki
Charles Barkley
Elvin Hayes
Bob Pettit
Kevin McHale
Dennis Rodman
Chris Webber

Clippersfan86
09-06-2013, 01:50 PM
you act like KG is Dwight scoring wise. Throughout his prime, a PER in the mid to high 20s, averaging around 22 a night. How many all defensive teams has Dirk been on (0)? How many times has Dirk average 5 dimes a game from the PF spot (never)? How many times has Dirk averaged 10 boards a game (never)?

The ONLY reason this is a debate is that KG had some underachieving playoff runs.

I don't think you understand how big of a gap 3 ppg is over the course of a lengthy career or how big of a gap 7 ppg is in playoff averages with 10+ runs a piece. Dirk's teams themselves have choked but Dirk himself has ALWAYS stepped up big in the big moments. Clutch and stepping up in the playoffs is what separates the best of the best from the rest. How about instead of being defensive you READ the original post. Let me repeat this for the 3rd time. I flat out said KG was the better all around player multiple times, so don't keep talking about KG's defense, I'm well aware of it.

I just take exception to somebody saying KG is an equal scorer to Dirk because he sure as hell isn't. Dirk's scoring is SIGNIFICANTLY better. He's a championship caliber 1st option scorer, KG was better suited as a 2nd/3rd option scorer although he could obviously score well. Dirk's efficiency and production scoring wise crush KG. He rebounds less because he takes more jumpers and isn't in the paint as much. Although I have already said KG was the better rebounder as well, so not sure what your point is.

ANYBODY in this thread who says "Not even close" is ignorant quite frankly. This IS debatable and has been debated before. It's sad that so many are homering and being defensive without actually talking about in depth analysis or answering the questions I posted in the OP for discussion.

Clippersfan86
09-06-2013, 02:03 PM
BTW after this thread gets further along I'm starting a KG vs Barkley and Malone thread. Too many people in here homering KG when CLEARLY he's not better than Barkley or Malone and I'm going to lay it all out in a new thread.

Hawkeye15
09-06-2013, 02:04 PM
I don't think you understand how big of a gap 3 ppg is over the course of a lengthy career or how big of a gap 7 ppg is in playoff averages with 10+ runs a piece. Dirk's teams themselves have choked but Dirk himself has ALWAYS stepped up big in the big moments. Clutch and stepping up in the playoffs is what separates the best of the best from the rest. How about instead of being defensive you READ the original post. Let me repeat this for the 3rd time. I flat out said KG was the better all around player multiple times, so don't keep talking about KG's defense, I'm well aware of it.

I just take exception to somebody saying KG is an equal scorer to Dirk because he sure as hell isn't. Dirk's scoring is SIGNIFICANTLY better. He's a championship caliber 1st option scorer, KG was better suited as a 2nd/3rd option scorer although he could obviously score well. Dirk's efficiency and production scoring wise crush KG. He rebounds less because he takes more jumpers and isn't in the paint as much. Although I have already said KG was the better rebounder as well, so not sure what your point is.

ANYBODY in this thread who says "Not even close" is ignorant quite frankly. This IS debatable and has been debated before. It's sad that so many are homering and being defensive without actually talking about in depth analysis or answering the questions I posted in the OP for discussion.

Didn't say KG was as good of a scorer. But he was also so much better on the other end, or rebounding, or passing, that his small gap in scoring just doesn't weigh nearly as much as Dirk's lack in the categories KG runs away with.

As far as playoffs go, remember Dirk was also given a far superior team during most of his career. No doubt Dirk was better in the playoffs, nobody is ignoring that. But if we are going to judge players because of playoff performance only, then the entire judging system needs to start over.

Hawkeye15
09-06-2013, 02:05 PM
BTW after this thread gets further along I'm starting a KG vs Barkley and Malone thread. Too many people in here homering KG when CLEARLY he's not better than Barkley or Malone and I'm going to lay it all out in a new thread.

KG versus Barkley is actually a good one. Malone, no. He and Dirk would be a better thread.

Duncan
2a- Barkley
2b- KG
Malone
Dirk

Clippersfan86
09-06-2013, 02:08 PM
KG versus Barkley is actually a good one. Malone, no. He and Dirk would be a better thread.

Duncan
2a- Barkley
2b- KG
Malone
Dirk

Will save for other thread.

DDynO
09-06-2013, 04:01 PM
The Big Ticket.

abe_froman
09-06-2013, 04:07 PM
kg,but by a hair.the top 6(timmy,kg,dirk,malone,barkley,pettit) are very,very tightly packed together with no clear advantage of one over another,you could do in any order pretty much, except timmy(because of rings/accolades)

hugepatsfan
09-06-2013, 04:21 PM
Its not a joke, KG isn't the no brainer people wish he were, he shrunk in big moments unlike Dirk. Dirk actually raised his game come post season IMO.

Maybe offensively you have a point but KG is one of the greatest defenders of all time. Dirk is passable at best. KG was a dominant rebounder, Dirk wasn't anything spectacular. And KG also had a transcendent effect on his teammates, particularly on the defensive end.

KnicksorBust
09-06-2013, 04:27 PM
Dirk. A true franchise player that proved he could carry a team to a championship.

Oh and Karl Malone is ahead of both of them. I dont know why players named Malone get so underrated over time ...

Chronz
09-06-2013, 04:30 PM
sure, but when you factor in complete career, KG was the superior two way player. Highly efficient, and a monster defender/rebounder.
Except when the playoffs rolled around.



Golden , State, Warriors.


With other " main guy" probably dallas wins 2 or 3 rings during the last 12 years.

1 team when Im speaking about the totality of their careers means next to nothing. Particularly regarding the special circumstances around that series.

So which years do they win titles with KG instead?

Chronz
09-06-2013, 04:36 PM
Maybe offensively you have a point but KG is one of the greatest defenders of all time.Dirk is passable at best.
Not to me. I think Dirk has gotten a bad rap for his **** defense earlier in his career and KG's rep has been overblown later in his career. KG is obviously better but his defense in Minnesota was nothing like it was in Boston.


KG was a dominant rebounder, Dirk wasn't anything spectacular.
Dirk was excellent on the defensive glass, particularly come post season. On the offensive end, rebounds are more valuable there but Dirk didn't need to be an offensive glass guy because he was so efficient from the perimeter and it opened up the game for his teammates.

beasted86
09-06-2013, 04:51 PM
KG is obviously better but his defense in Minnesota was nothing like it was in Boston.


Sad thing is his defense in Boston at it's worse is probably on par with Dirk's best.

KnicksorBust
09-06-2013, 05:28 PM
KG is obviously better but his defense in Minnesota was nothing like it was in Boston.


Sad thing is his defense in Boston at it's worse is probably on par with Dirk's best.

So what? Payton was a 2way allstar whose defense ***** on Magics and he still cant hold his jock.

hugepatsfan
09-06-2013, 05:33 PM
So what? Payton was a 2way allstar whose defense ***** on Magics and he still cant hold his jock.

Because Payton wasn't even close to Magic in other areas. KG is a much better rebounder, defender and passer than Dirk. By a wider margin in each category than Dirk is over KG as a scorer. And KG also has more of an intangible effect on the rest of the team with how he motivates them to play defense and communicates on the court.

South Sided
09-06-2013, 05:57 PM
KG by a mile!!!!!!!!!!! Dirk doesn't really belong in any all-time discussions unless you're talking about all-time Mavericks or Euro-Players. He's a good one sided player & lacks versatility.

Chronz
09-06-2013, 06:08 PM
Because Payton wasn't even close to Magic in other areas. KG is a much better rebounder, defender and passer than Dirk. By a wider margin in each category than Dirk is over KG as a scorer. And KG also has more of an intangible effect on the rest of the team with how he motivates them to play defense and communicates on the court.

Hes talking about people who boil the game down as simple offense/defense.

For example, would you call GP an offensive liability? Because Magic was a liability defensively. Therefore, one could conclude that GP was closer to Magic on Offense than Magic to GP was on defense.

In other words, Magic was a better offensive player than GP was, but GP was a FAR better defender than Magic. He was the DPOY after all, and he did score alot.


This argument doesn't work because your impact on the game gos beyond your own play, but how it meshes with others and how reliable you are in the post season.

Ebbs
09-06-2013, 06:15 PM
Its not a joke, KG isn't the no brainer people wish he were, he shrunk in big moments unlike Dirk. Dirk actually raised his game come post season IMO.

I'd take Dirk without blinking and Chronz is right.

Those stats listed don't account for the constant success of our franchise with depleted rosters. Dirk took a team on his back to a championship a feat KG never accomplished.

I'd look and see how many times each led the league in PER, WS/48 as well

Clippersfan86
09-06-2013, 06:22 PM
Because Payton wasn't even close to Magic in other areas. KG is a much better rebounder, defender and passer than Dirk. By a wider margin in each category than Dirk is over KG as a scorer. And KG also has more of an intangible effect on the rest of the team with how he motivates them to play defense and communicates on the court.

You're exaggerating. Come playoff time when it matters they have similar rebounding/assist numbers. Regular season it's a nearly 2 rpg difference and 1.4 apg difference and Dirk scores 3 more ppg in the regular season, 7 more in the playoffs. So it really balances out decently in the end. Dirk's rebounding and passing isn't as productive because of playstyle, not ability. KG in his huge assist years was a ball dominant Point Forward basically who did a lot of the playmaking with no great playmaking PG on the Wolves. Dirk on the other hand is a finisher and isn't creating much offense for others by design. The rebounding difference as I said already comes from Dirk being more perimeter oriented than KG.

Both love the mid-high post where Dirk and KG are both great at scoring but KG's usually in better spots for boards. Not to mention KG's just a better rebounder in general but the gap is being exaggerated here. Dirk's scoring/efficiency edge on offense is greater than KG's rebounding/passing edge.

topdog
09-06-2013, 06:23 PM
I don't think you understand how big of a gap 3 ppg is over the course of a lengthy career or how big of a gap 7 ppg is in playoff averages with 10+ runs a piece. Dirk's teams themselves have choked but Dirk himself has ALWAYS stepped up big in the big moments. Clutch and stepping up in the playoffs is what separates the best of the best from the rest. How about instead of being defensive you READ the original post. Let me repeat this for the 3rd time. I flat out said KG was the better all around player multiple times, so don't keep talking about KG's defense, I'm well aware of it.

I don't think you properly appreciate good defense. You go on and on about Dirk's points but what about the ones KG took away from the opposition with his defense. You say you'd rather build around Dirk, but it's easy to find guys who like to shoot and score and much harder to find defense-first multi-dimensional players.

Quite frankly, I think you need to look back at the rosters these two had around them and realize that the majority of the guys KG played with had no business playing as much as they did and would not (and did not) have near the same role or minutes on any other team. The '03-'04 season is a perfect example of how easily a competent front office could have built around KG with a geriatric version of Sam Cassel paired with Garnett taking an otherwise decent team to the western conference finals (oh, and KG was quite clutch in closing out the Kings that year).

Clippersfan86
09-06-2013, 06:25 PM
So what? Payton was a 2way allstar whose defense ***** on Magics and he still cant hold his jock.

Exactly. Just like I said on the last page.. a more well rounded player can be worse than a specialized player. For example many people rank Nash above Kidd on the all time PG list, even though Kidd was better in more categories. Certain categories are more valuable IMO. There is no category that's greater than an elite scorer able to CARRY his team to an NBA championship. KG has NEVER had a playoff run that can rival Dirk's 2011 brilliance. Which is definitely a top 3 playoff run from a player I've seen in the 15 years or so I've watched the NBA (right there with Wade in 06, Shaq during 3 peat years).

KG has never gotten to that level of dominance.

Clippersfan86
09-06-2013, 06:32 PM
I don't think you properly appreciate good defense. You go on and on about Dirk's points but what about the ones KG took away from the opposition with his defense. You say you'd rather build around Dirk, but it's easy to find guys who like to shoot and score and much harder to find defense-first multi-dimensional players.

Quite frankly, I think you need to look back at the rosters these two had around them and realize that the majority of the guys KG played with had no business playing as much as they did and would not (and did not) have near the same role or minutes on any other team. The '03-'04 season is a perfect example of how easily a competent front office could have built around KG with a geriatric version of Sam Cassel paired with Garnett taking an otherwise decent team to the western conference finals (oh, and KG was quite clutch in closing out the Kings that year).

I think it's much harder to find a scorer so dominant and so efficient that he can carry a team to 50+ wins for 11 straight seasons, breaking 60 in what 4 of those? Not to mention a guy who carries a team to the finals on his back twice without a legit star next to him.

BTW you're ignorant if you think Cassell in 03-04 was "geriatric". The dude was still a more legit 2nd option than anything Dirk had to work with in 06 or 11. He averaged 20 ppg, 7.5 apg, 3.3 rpg. Hell he wasn't even geriatric when you guys traded him to us and he led us to the playoffs in 06. The 2004 Timberwolves that got to the WCF had similar talent to the 11 Mavs. A bit more top heavy but far from talent depleted like your revisionist history is telling.

Dirk in previous years like say 06 had similar talent to all of KG's years in Minny for the most part (at least by KG's 3rd season or so).

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DAL/2006.html

Look at this fu**ing roster will you? A trio of Dirk, Terry and Josh Howard got to the finals.

Chronz
09-06-2013, 06:51 PM
There is no category that's greater than an elite scorer able to CARRY his team to an NBA championship. KG has NEVER had a playoff run that can rival Dirk's 2011 brilliance. Which is definitely a top 3 playoff run from a player I've seen in the 15 years or so I've watched the NBA (right there with Wade in 06, Shaq during 3 peat years).

KG has never gotten to that level of dominance.
Jesus Top3? WTF....

And what do you mean KG's couldn't rival his run? They both have 1 chip dont they?

I was with you because so many dismiss the conversation entirely, but seeing your argument has me questioning myself.

leprechaun5
09-06-2013, 07:52 PM
I think it's much harder to find a scorer so dominant and so efficient that he can carry a team to 50+ wins for 11 straight seasons, breaking 60 in what 4 of those? Not to mention a guy who carries a team to the finals on his back twice without a legit star next to him.

BTW you're ignorant if you think Cassell in 03-04 was "geriatric". The dude was still a more legit 2nd option than anything Dirk had to work with in 06 or 11. He averaged 20 ppg, 7.5 apg, 3.3 rpg. Hell he wasn't even geriatric when you guys traded him to us and he led us to the playoffs in 06. The 2004 Timberwolves that got to the WCF had similar talent to the 11 Mavs. A bit more top heavy but far from talent depleted like your revisionist history is telling.

Dirk in previous years like say 06 had similar talent to all of KG's years in Minny for the most part (at least by KG's 3rd season or so).

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DAL/2006.html

Look at this fu**ing roster will you? A trio of Dirk, Terry and Josh Howard got to the finals.

Do you remember he was running on a bike during WCF and even troy hudson the reserve PG was also injured , and there were times that KG played the PG .

bagwell368
09-06-2013, 08:05 PM
Close to equal scorer? KG has ZERO seasons at 25 ppg or better, Dirk has five. Dirk's CAREER season average is 22 ppg, playoffs 26 ppg. KG's career season and playoff average is 19 ppg. Dirk has almost as big of an offensive edge over KG and KG does a defensive one. The past 5-6 years Dirk's been a slightly above average defender. Not great and nowhere near KG level but he's not bad on defense by any stretch of the imagination.

Highly misleading to use averages and rates of an older player when both players are not retired. KG started out as a kid in the NBA, not so Dirk, KG has two years as a declined older player in the books over Dirk as well.

Dirk has 12 prime years IMO in the NBA, take KG's best 12 years and take a look.

KG is a 20/11/3.5/1.3/1.2 playoff player in 38.4 MPG (25.9 USG%)
DN is a 26/10/2.5/0.8/0.9 playoff player in 41.3 MPG (27.3 USG%)

Also, Dirk's teams that went to the playoffs averaged a 55-27 record, KG's 50-32. That in fact is a large difference - higher seedings and easier match-ups for Dirk's teams. KG played for 4 teams with more than 50 wins in 13 trips. Dirk played for 10 (TEN!) teams with over 50 wins in 12 trips.

Until people are willing to take a look at the make-up and results of each playoff team both played for, I think we should hear no more about how KG didn't elevate his game but Dirk did. KG played for one great team and won the title (the fact he wasn't the MVP and was bought off with the DPY is a joke). What's Dirk's excuse?

bagwell368
09-06-2013, 08:11 PM
Dirk's scoring/efficiency edge on offense is greater than KG's rebounding/passing edge.

Hahhaa. How on the ball D? How about blocks and intimidation of shots? Steals? DN played more MPG in the playoffs that's one reason in the totals line it looks close, let's look at the per 36 numbers:

D: 22.6/09.0/2.2/0.8/0.9
K: 18.0/10.4/3.3/1.3/1.2

Jeez, I don't see any big advantage for Dirk there. In fact, KG's line is better for a PF IMO.

bagwell368
09-06-2013, 08:21 PM
Exactly. Just like I said on the last page.. a more well rounded player can be worse than a specialized player. For example many people rank Nash above Kidd on the all time PG list, even though Kidd was better in more categories. Certain categories are more valuable IMO. There is no category that's greater than an elite scorer able to CARRY his team to an NBA championship. KG has NEVER had a playoff run that can rival Dirk's 2011 brilliance. Which is definitely a top 3 playoff run from a player I've seen in the 15 years or so I've watched the NBA (right there with Wade in 06, Shaq during 3 peat years).

KG has never gotten to that level of dominance.

The way you couched the opening post made me think you were a Dirk fan, but, you've abandoned any shred of objectivity at this point.

I bet you didn't count on getting swamped in your own thread, if there was a poll, KG would be ahead between 3 and 4 to 1 at this point.

Parade biased "facts" and "POV's" around all you like, KG was a better player, and if Dirk plays deeply into his decline he won't catch KG in totals but he will screw his rate stats, which will cut him down historically - in particular vs KG and TD. PF is simple it's 1A and 1B, and then about 6 guys battling over the next spots. Dirk is one of those. Very few count Dirk as the #2 PF in NBA history, go find some actual writers (not biased blog clowns) that agree with you.

topdog
09-06-2013, 08:44 PM
I think it's much harder to find a scorer so dominant and so efficient that he can carry a team to 50+ wins for 11 straight seasons, breaking 60 in what 4 of those? Not to mention a guy who carries a team to the finals on his back twice without a legit star next to him.

That's all Dirk's doing? It has nothing to do with a winningest coach like Don Nelson or front office that brought in defensive talent specifically to cover Dirk's tail on the other end of the court?


BTW you're ignorant if you think Cassell in 03-04 was "geriatric". The dude was still a more legit 2nd option than anything Dirk had to work with in 06 or 11. He averaged 20 ppg, 7.5 apg, 3.3 rpg. Hell he wasn't even geriatric when you guys traded him to us and he led us to the playoffs in 06. The 2004 Timberwolves that got to the WCF had similar talent to the 11 Mavs. A bit more top heavy but far from talent depleted like your revisionist history is telling.

Cassell was 34 at the time and his numbers decline from there. He's more-or-less in the same category as Jason Terry but was asked to score more next to KG whereas Terry needed to save shots for Dirk and thus come off the bench.

How was the talent comparable? Shawn Marion, Jason Terry, Caron Butler, Jason Kidd, Tyson Chandler and a special appearance by J.J. Barea are far better talent than past-prime Spreewell, Cassell, Wally Szczerbiak and 36 year old Ervin Johnson as the most effective of the "center by committee."

Where did the other guys like Olowokandi, Hassell, and Derrick Martin go after the Wolves let them go? Nowhere. Their careers faded out of existence because they weren't quality NBA players in the first place.


Dirk in previous years like say 06 had similar talent to all of KG's years in Minny for the most part (at least by KG's 3rd season or so).

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DAL/2006.html

Look at this fu**ing roster will you? A trio of Dirk, Terry and Josh Howard got to the finals.

What about Stackhouse and Harris? They contributed double digits and some D and certainly still have careers going still (which is a lot more than can be said for MN players).

Lakers + Giants
09-06-2013, 08:57 PM
Honestly it's KG easily. Especially since he actually played great defense. Dirk, not so much.

Dirk is in the same category as nash IMO. Really talented offensive player, but that's only half the game.

cmellofan15
09-06-2013, 08:58 PM
Hahhaa. How on the ball D? How about blocks and intimidation of shots? Steals? DN played more MPG in the playoffs that's one reason in the totals line it looks close, let's look at the per 36 numbers:

D: 22.6/09.0/2.2/0.8/0.9
K: 18.0/10.4/3.3/1.3/1.2

Jeez, I don't see any big advantage for Dirk there. In fact, KG's line is better for a PF IMO.

Very poor comparison. If anything that stat line could be used to prove Garnett isn't the vastly superior rebounder, which isn't the case, but it is what that stat shows.

Clippersfan86
09-06-2013, 08:59 PM
Anybody who doesn't think Cassell is clearly a better player than Jason Terry has no business talking about basketball. Bagwell you sound like a serious homer TBH. You accuse me of bias yet I have no horse in the race. I actually am a big fan of both in general. You on the other hand are one of the few Celtics himers in here who came in and immediately said "KG not even close" while completely ignoring the questions,and criteria of my OP. I didn't realize how defensive Celtics fans were around here. It's a bummer more Mavs fans haven't chimed in.

Chronz top 3 individual playoff run in the years I've watched is just my own opinion or perceptions, wasn.t presenting it as fact. Dirk's run was special. Yes both have 1 ring but Dirk has the greatest award of all. A finals MVP. KG was passed his prime when he won a ring and was outplayed by his teammate Pierce in the finals. Dirk carried the 06 and 11 Mavs to the finals with the team on his back. Great role players but no disputing he was easily THE MAN.

Lakers + Giants
09-06-2013, 09:01 PM
I don't think you properly appreciate good defense. You go on and on about Dirk's points but what about the ones KG took away from the opposition with his defense. You say you'd rather build around Dirk, but it's easy to find guys who like to shoot and score and much harder to find defense-first multi-dimensional players.

Quite frankly, I think you need to look back at the rosters these two had around them and realize that the majority of the guys KG played with had no business playing as much as they did and would not (and did not) have near the same role or minutes on any other team. The '03-'04 season is a perfect example of how easily a competent front office could have built around KG with a geriatric version of Sam Cassel paired with Garnett taking an otherwise decent team to the western conference finals (oh, and KG was quite clutch in closing out the Kings that year).

I remember that team. Troy Hudson would go off on us. Cassell, Sprewell, Wally Z.

Not KG's fault. Tough to beat a "Super Team" like that. Well, not for the pistons :(

hidalgo
09-06-2013, 09:01 PM
this is really close in my opinion, really really close. but I'll go with Nowitzki, because his playoff numbers, & that finals mvp(with a far lesser cast, & getting to the finals in 06 with a far lesser cast as well). I think that gives Dirk the slight edge. best pure shooter at the PF spot ever. he outplayed Kobe Bryant, Kevin Durant and LeBron James all in the 2011 playoffs & finals, that also helps put him ahead of KG. also think Dirk's defense is underrated, he was ok on that end

I think the 5 best PFs ever are in this order. Duncan, Barkley, Karl Mailbags, Dirk, KG, (McHale next)

Clippersfan86
09-06-2013, 09:01 PM
Hahhaa. How on the ball D? How about blocks and intimidation of shots? Steals? DN played more MPG in the playoffs that's one reason in the totals line it looks close, let's look at the per 36 numbers:

D: 22.6/09.0/2.2/0.8/0.9
K: 18.0/10.4/3.3/1.3/1.2

Jeez, I don't see any big advantage for Dirk there. In fact, KG's line is better for a PF IMO.

I don't see a big edge for either which is why I'm making the ****ing comparison LMAO. Point is.. It's clearly debatable. So GTFO with that not close stuff while calling ME the homer when I'm not a fan of any of their teams. Best part of it is literally everybody griping about the comparison is a Celtics or Wolves fan. That's what's making the thread so lopsided. I didnt realize the Mavs fanbase was so small here

Clippersfan86
09-06-2013, 09:03 PM
ths is really close in my opinion, really really close. but I'll go with Nowitzki, because his playoff numbers, & that finals mvp(with a far lesser cast, & getting to the finals in 06 with a far lesser cast as well). I think that gives Dirk the slight edge

Exactly what I feel.

tredigs
09-06-2013, 09:05 PM
Personally rather have prime KG than Malone. That defense...

Clippersfan86
09-06-2013, 09:12 PM
Personally rather have prime KG than Malone. That defense...

Malone is a 6 time All NBA defensive team member himself. Not KG level of course but far from bad in his prime. On the other
hand Malone scored 25 ppg for his career and playoffs with multiple 30 plus ppg seasons. That's 6 ppg more in his prime than KG's ultimate scoring prime. Prime vs prime more like 8 ppg difference. Personally I think the gap on their scoring is bigger than defensively, or at least similar.

tredigs
09-06-2013, 09:29 PM
Malone is a 6 time All NBA defensive team member himself. Not KG level of course but far from bad in his prime. On the other
hand Malone scored 25 ppg for his career and playoffs with multiple 30 plus ppg seasons. That's 6 ppg more in his prime than KG's ultimate scoring prime. Prime vs prime more like 8 ppg difference. Personally I think the gap on their scoring is bigger than defensively, or at least similar.
True, but Malone also had a top 5 playmaker in NBA history on his team to help free him up in that pnr. KG was not only their leading scorer, rebounder and defender, but also often their top playmaker. He'd regularly average 5-6 APG.

And while KG has had his own playoff struggles, I think he had a much tougher task when playoff squads were able to gameplan specifically for him and could leave the rest of his (predominantly scrub) teammates to try and beat them (which they more than often couldn't). Malone's infamous chokes in key moments in epic series are... tough to swallow.

It's definitely debatable and most would probably take Malone and that scoring, but I've just always been partial to transcendent D + tenacity from my bigs. And you're right that Malone was a good defender, but not on KG's level.

topdog
09-06-2013, 09:40 PM
Anybody who doesn't think Cassell is clearly a better player than Jason Terry has no business talking about basketball.

:laugh: Looks pretty similar to me...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=cassesa01&y1=2004&p2=terryja01&y2=2012

(through age 34)

FlashBolt
09-06-2013, 09:56 PM
Defense is the biggest reason KG>Dirk. Dirk isn't a great rebounder while KG does everything on the court. Also, Dirk has had the better teammates in his career. KG never had anyone until Boston and then they got old. I have KG as my 3rd best PF.

jam
09-06-2013, 09:57 PM
I guess partisan politics are inevitable in this type of debate, although I think it a bit unfortunate.

Dirk does have a rep for being a "big game" player and big shot maker in a way that KG does not. KG wasn't unwilling to take that shot, but he often preferred to defer, in the same way that a scottie pippen or lebron james would. Add to that, dirk's big shots came against miami, which most of the sports world absolutely hated, even despised, magnifying his clutch moments even more.

They're odd mirror images of each other: KG a defensive beast with ridiculous length and the mindset allowing him to make his teammates better: Dirk, an offensive specialist who was also incredibly well rounded if not quite the scary, all court defender that KG was.

They both revolutionized the game, along with guys like earvin johnson, yao, ralph sampson and perhaps a handful of others.

If I absolutely had to choose one over the other, it would be dirk because of his big shot capabilities. And KG is literally one of my top 5/6 favorite players of all time.

JLynn943
09-06-2013, 10:29 PM
Anyone saying this is an easy choice is a fool imo. Each has the other bested on one end of the court, and Dirk has been the better player in the playoffs. I also think KG being able to play in Boston with that roster is a luxury Dirk never had. If Dirk played there, I'm sure he would have played better on both ends of the floor than he did in Dallas and had more championships. That said, I won't judge on hypotheticals, and KG was further from Dirk defensively than the difference between them offensively, so I give a very slight edge to KG. I could very easily go with Dirk though as I think he is more talented offensively than KG by a larger margin than people on here seem to think.

Clippersfan86
09-06-2013, 10:54 PM
Last few posts were great and fair. Props to Jam and Jlynn

Clippersfan86
09-06-2013, 10:57 PM
:laugh: Looks pretty similar to me...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=cassesa01&y1=2004&p2=terryja01&y2=2012

(through age 34)

I watched the full careers of both. You will never convince me that Terry is close to Cassell's equal. Cassell's intangibles are off the charts and he was more efficient. Not to mention had a much better peak.

topdog
09-06-2013, 11:41 PM
I watched the full careers of both. You will never convince me that Terry is close to Cassell's equal. Cassell's intangibles are off the charts and he was more efficient. Not to mention had a much better peak.

I can respect that you have a subjective opinion but trying to dismiss my argument with the old "if you think ______ then you don't know basketball" deserves a good chuckle.

As far as "intangibles," I will agree that Cassell certainly can "big balls dance" with the best of them http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2TpiKxQv14 [53 sec mark]

Clippersfan86
09-07-2013, 12:28 AM
I can respect that you have a subjective opinion but trying to dismiss my argument with the old "if you think ______ then you don't know basketball" deserves a good chuckle.

As far as "intangibles," I will agree that Cassell certainly can "big balls dance" with the best of them http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2TpiKxQv14 [53 sec mark]

Cassell was one of the best floor generals and leaders the game has seen quite honestly. He was also EXTREMELY clutch. His impact was just much greater on teams than Terry which creates a pretty big gap alone. I think this is a perfect example of stats being misleading because if you just look at career averages then yes, Cassell is only marginally better. If you watch them both enough though, you can see Cassell's much greater all around impact.

Terry was a fantastic volume scorer and 3rd option type player. He was an average playmaker, mediocre defender and subpar rebounder though. Essentially more of a scoring specialist with decent passing at times. Perfect 6th man. Cassell was better than average at everything besides defense where they are pretty comparable. It's shocking to me that Wolves fans disrespect guys like Billups and Cassell who were still very good in Minny. Remember Clippers fans got more games out of Cassell than Wolves fans so it's not like I'm blind on this.

Cassell is my favorite Clipper of all time as a matter of fact. I saw his HUGE impact leading us from a lotto team to a game from the WCF. I hate his bonehead 8 second violation but he was the guy who propelled our team to that level with his leadership, big shots and mentoring of our young core. You think Terry would have done the same for the 05-06 Clips?

Sadds The Gr8
09-07-2013, 01:06 AM
I'd have KG ranked higher but if I was building a team i'd take Dirk because I think he'd be easier to build around.

Durant is hype
09-07-2013, 01:12 AM
KG. Better at everything,but scoring.

Chronz
09-07-2013, 01:18 AM
Chronz top 3 individual playoff run in the years I've watched is just my own opinion or perceptions, wasn.t presenting it as fact. Dirk's run was special. Yes both have 1 ring but Dirk has the greatest award of all. A finals MVP. KG was passed his prime when he won a ring and was outplayed by his teammate Pierce in the finals. Dirk carried the 06 and 11 Mavs to the finals with the team on his back. Great role players but no disputing he was easily THE MAN.

KG was still in his prime if Dirk was. Getting Finals MVP is nice but its just an award, doesn't tell you how they competed and who they competed against in comparison. Pierce did not outplay KG, he just had prettier offensive numbers, KG was the heart and soul of that team and greatly outplayed everyone throughout the entirety of the playoffs+regular season. In the Finals, he struggled relative to earlier rounds, and that is worth mentioning, but its not like Dirk lit it up in his Finals either. And KG was the man, that he had better teammates could just means his team was better than Dirk's as a result.

topdog
09-07-2013, 01:27 AM
Terry was a fantastic volume scorer and 3rd option type player. He was an average playmaker, mediocre defender and subpar rebounder though. Essentially more of a scoring specialist with decent passing at times. Perfect 6th man. Cassell was better than average at everything besides defense where they are pretty comparable. It's shocking to me that Wolves fans disrespect guys like Billups and Cassell who were still very good in Minny. Remember Clippers fans got more games out of Cassell than Wolves fans so it's not like I'm blind on this.

My comments mean no disrespect to Cassel. He is one of the better players we have had on the Wolves. My points simply are 1) the FO screwed up big time but only figuring out what kind of players to put next to KG far too late (both for his tenure and their age) and 2) that Jason Terry is a similar quality player career-wise and was much younger when he made his first run with Dirk.

Speaking of figuring out KG's ideal teammates sooner, Chauncey Billups almost instantaneously became my favorite Timberwolf and I could not understand why for the life of me we didn't keep him (Terrell Brandon had not yet proven to be healthy). The negativity from Wolves fans is something to be blamed on the front office and its utter inability to put a quality team around KG, draft or not screw the pooch by illegally talking to Joe friggin' Smith!


Cassell is my favorite Clipper of all time as a matter of fact. I saw his HUGE impact leading us from a lotto team to a game from the WCF. I hate his bonehead 8 second violation but he was the guy who propelled our team to that level with his leadership, big shots and mentoring of our young core. You think Terry would have done the same for the 05-06 Clips?

I don't deal in hypotheticals and of course you have to consider fit as well. Cassell still had some game left in him but was at the point in his career where you couldn't count on him staying healthy. And again, the Cassell-Jaric trade is another example of how terrible our FO was. Jaric was way too slow to be a PG (and would not accept that) and we just "threw in" a lottery pick for a guy who was a free agent. Pure stupidity.

Clippersfan86
09-07-2013, 01:38 AM
Topdog I feel your pain. I put up with about 11 seasons of stupidity from ours before finally getting rewarded for it as a fan. I respect if you don't want to talk in hypothetical.

smiddy012
09-07-2013, 02:45 AM
I'm having a hard time believing that KG > Malone

bagwell368
09-07-2013, 05:23 AM
Malone is a 6 time All NBA defensive team member himself. Not KG level of course but far from bad in his prime.

Mmmm... because awards with subjective criteria are always so correct.

bagwell368
09-07-2013, 05:26 AM
Bagwell you sound like a serious homer TBH.

Obviously you haven't read much of my stuff. I'm the #1 Rondo and Bill Russell critic on PSD bar none. I never had much good to say about Pierce either. So much for being a homer.

bagwell368
09-07-2013, 05:31 AM
I don't see a big edge for either which is why I'm making the ****ing comparison LMAO. Point is.. It's clearly debatable. So GTFO with that not close stuff

It's not that close in your opinion since you've elevated Dirk above KG. The fact that you haven't responded to my arguments about KG playing in the NBA both younger and older than Dirk, and that you haven't spend much time on the passing aspects of their games, nor the sabermetric aspects in their respective defensive ability just puts the seal on the fact that either you don't understand them, value them, or perhaps already made up your mind. I've come to choose KG after examining all those aspects, you have not.

AnthonyTyrael
09-07-2013, 06:00 AM
I'm a 2 time homer ;-) , still I'd take KG over Dirk.

Garnett started in the NBA at a very young age, Dirk though, actually came from a country where no one teached him the stuff (and PF basics back then) that Garnett had learned, even when he went to high school only. Dirk was actually more of a second league player here in Germany, who entered the NBA as a rookie, just before he had played less than half a season in our first, premier league, so to say. he had amuhc rougher start than KG in the NBA, he was far more one dimensional, but if he wanted, he could be a pretty good rebounder, especially during his first years and he still shows it every year come play off time, til today.

On the other side, Dirk's past two years... very disapointing to me. Injuries back and forth, it's not been down to that ALONE (but when healthy his production and PER was up with the leagues leaders again), and KG been injured a couple times too during that span, so who cares anyway? Maybe this year will finally show us how much on a decline Dirk really is.

We're talking NBA not international play but Dirk always kicked serious butts internationally and yes it's much tougher to shine on a team USA statistically.

However, Kevin Garnett being the much superior agressive leader, and defensive anchor, I'd take KG over Dirk, except for his first few contracts. ;) He was worth the money but he also "blocked" his franchises future and its (his too) success. Since most players only see the dollars not the possible shots on championships when they're young.... it's understandable but... KG only padded stats, made himself a name for Timberwolves organisation as well as in the leagues history and that's all he left, before he left while Dirk, stayed and spend his entire career. All he had to give. On both ends. He tried but yeah, he's much weaker than KG.

Small market team, bigger market team, Cuban, no Cuban... I dunno... I have no insight in those kind of arguments.

KG being the better player, Dirk being the better personality. Both being deadly weapons in their own art of war.

However, it's always more fun to see a more offensive minded player duell with a guy like MCGrady or battle as an only knight against the over dominance of the Spurs in all these play off runs. Mavs quiet often lost with unfortune to them, if not, maybe they would have won more in total... with less impressive teams/cast most of the times considered to the Spurs, for example. On the other side, there were some early play off exits too. That's clearly to admit and a huge minus on Dirk's side.

leprechaun5
09-07-2013, 06:05 AM
I don't get it why are people still talking about cassell vs terry , sam wasn't healthy during that playoff run .If he was playing they'd probably win that series vs lakers .KG was to darn good .

AnthonyTyrael
09-07-2013, 06:11 AM
KG - inside player with mid range game. Particularly playing center in todays NBA, with a pretty good shot.
Dirk - outside player/mid range with average inside game (just imagine what a much smaller Barkely was able to do inside)

In general, I'm in awe with how good TD, KG and Dirk can shoot the ball.

Clippersfan86
09-07-2013, 11:38 AM
It's not that close in your opinion since you've elevated Dirk above KG. The fact that you haven't responded to my arguments about KG playing in the NBA both younger and older than Dirk, and that you haven't spend much time on the passing aspects of their games, nor the sabermetric aspects in their respective defensive ability just puts the seal on the fact that either you don't understand them, value them, or perhaps already made up your mind. I've come to choose KG after examining all those aspects, you have not.

I've weighed all that. As I said I'm a fan of both players so I had no agenda here. I value defense tremendously which is why Gary Payton and Ben Wallace are my favorite all time players. I just think Dirk's massive playoff edge gives him a small edge. If I didn't think it was debatable I wouldn't of made the thread. I can see both sides. I only got defensive because Celtics and Wolves fans jumped on me like this was the most idiotic comparison ever.

Jamiecballer
09-07-2013, 12:52 PM
I don't think you understand how big of a gap 3 ppg is over the course of a lengthy career or how big of a gap 7 ppg is in playoff averages with 10+ runs a piece. Dirk's teams themselves have choked but Dirk himself has ALWAYS stepped up big in the big moments. Clutch and stepping up in the playoffs is what separates the best of the best from the rest. How about instead of being defensive you READ the original post. Let me repeat this for the 3rd time. I flat out said KG was the better all around player multiple times, so don't keep talking about KG's defense, I'm well aware of it.

I just take exception to somebody saying KG is an equal scorer to Dirk because he sure as hell isn't. Dirk's scoring is SIGNIFICANTLY better. He's a championship caliber 1st option scorer, KG was better suited as a 2nd/3rd option scorer although he could obviously score well. Dirk's efficiency and production scoring wise crush KG. He rebounds less because he takes more jumpers and isn't in the paint as much. Although I have already said KG was the better rebounder as well, so not sure what your point is.

ANYBODY in this thread who says "Not even close" is ignorant quite frankly. This IS debatable and has been debated before. It's sad that so many are homering and being defensive without actually talking about in depth analysis or answering the questions I posted in the OP for discussion.

you should take your own advice and read what he wrote. he said almost equal offensively, not "scorer". and he is right.

Sportfan
09-07-2013, 12:53 PM
Does anyone honestly believe Dirk on the Wolves could come close to a title? With Cassell and Sprewell? lol

hugepatsfan
09-07-2013, 01:00 PM
The only thing Dirk has on KG is longevity IMO. He's been an elite player for longer but KG in his prime years was more elite. In all time rankings, I think peak is much more important provided it's long enough.

Jamiecballer
09-07-2013, 01:04 PM
I don't see a big edge for either which is why I'm making the ****ing comparison LMAO. Point is.. It's clearly debatable. So GTFO with that not close stuff while calling ME the homer when I'm not a fan of any of their teams. Best part of it is literally everybody griping about the comparison is a Celtics or Wolves fan. That's what's making the thread so lopsided. I didnt realize the Mavs fanbase was so small here

anything can be debated. clearly your opinion represents the extreme minority on this one, blaming it on the size of a particular teams fanbase on a website is extremely weak.

Clippersfan86
09-07-2013, 01:55 PM
Does anyone honestly believe Dirk on the Wolves could come close to a title? With Cassell and Sprewell? lol

Considering that the best 2nd option Dirk ever had was 17 ppg Terry, yes I think he would get further with the much better Cassell and Sprewell. I've compared the talent ov the Mavs and Wolves the last decade and Dirk did more with similar talent for most years.

Clippersfan86
09-07-2013, 01:59 PM
anything can be debated. clearly your opinion represents the extreme minority on this one, blaming it on the size of a particular teams fanbase on a website is extremely weak.

It's valid. The only people that posted in here in opposition to what I have said are Celtics and Wolves fans which obviously lessens the validity of it. It's clear strong bias is running rampant in this thread. Every neutral party in here has said it's close or debatable. I wouldn'take a comparison thread if it wasn't debatable. My only issue in here was with the not even close comments.

SPURSFAN1
09-07-2013, 02:02 PM
Dirk took his team to the finals twice and won one as the head chief. Dirk was always a contender to win titles but always had to fend of the lakers/spurs of the 2000's. He always made Conference finals or finals many times as the head Honcho. Dirk was clutch many times when they needed him. It was almost impossible to stop him from scoring. His scoring abilities were higher than lebron right now. Kg has defense but i guess his attitude some how rubbed the wrong way because he couldn't win.

JeremiahWing
09-07-2013, 02:03 PM
Dirk was the main man on a title team. That's gotta count for something.

SPURSFAN1
09-07-2013, 02:04 PM
Considering that the best 2nd option Dirk ever had was 17 ppg Terry, yes I think he would get further with the much better Cassell and Sprewell. I've compared the talent ov the Mavs and Wolves the last decade and Dirk did more with similar talent for most years.

and we all know how bad terry was. yet Dirk carried his inconsistent *** all the time.

Clippersfan86
09-07-2013, 02:15 PM
Outside of his 2011 squad Dirk spent years carrying mediocre talent, more so than KG IMO. He had talent early.on with Nash and Finley but most of the Mavs success came after those years.

SPURSFAN1
09-07-2013, 02:22 PM
and we all know how bad terry was. yet Dirk carried his inconsistent *** all the time.

If his team didn't get blown up, he would have a badass team right now. that's no fault to him. Dirk is a perennial leader. he doesn't bunny hop from team to team because leaders stay and win no matter what. They have something to prove. They don't take the easy way out. They don't build allstar teams like the celtics or heat. They aren't so easily faltered. They say "**** it" and do it all next year. Those guys are true role models because they aren't so wavering because they know their abilities are a class apart from other players.

bagwell368
09-07-2013, 04:14 PM
I just think Dirk's massive playoff edge gives him a small edge.

What massive playoff edge? You can't mean raw numbers per 36 for PPG, TRB, BLK, and STL because KG's line is better.

Do you mean results? Well as I showed on average Dirk had better teams, and he also played on more elite teams by record as well, and had more favorable seeding too.


If I didn't think it was debatable I wouldn't of made the thread. I can see both sides. I only got defensive because Celtics and Wolves fans jumped on me like this was the most idiotic comparison ever.

It's not the worst thread ever. With the top 6 4's you've got to find the weak spots to filter out the best from the rest.

TD and KG play D, shoot and pass. Have a lot of longevity. TD is more of a 5/4, and played more offense in the paint. KG could, but seemed to like being mid range more, he's a 4/5. If KG was on the Spurs/Celts I see the same or one more title (TD had a down year when KG and SAS were great). If TD was on Minny/Celts I see just the one title. 1A and 1B.

McHale's career was cut short. He's probably one of the 3 best low post offensive players ever. At his peak he could guard a higher percentage of players than all but a very small handful of players all time. Short peak and short career and meh passing does him in.

Barkley and Dirk are two of the most elite offensive players of all time, playing a position that requires IMO D - in particular out of the top 6 players all time. Neither one can compete with TD or KG overall IMO.

Malone has longevity, very productive offense, very good D (but KG and TD are both top elite defenders, and KM is in the next tier). He seems to be 1C - but if you guys are arguing post season against KG - forget KM, he had a lot more issues and played a lot further beneath his regular season than KG - for some of the same reasons. No.

TD
KG

KMalone

CB
DN - he could move ahead of CB still

KMcHale

bagwell368
09-07-2013, 04:17 PM
Dirk was the main man on a title team. That's gotta count for something.

Take a look at the defensive stats for the 2007-2008 Celts and look at the top 8 Celt players career defensive numbers before and after KG. He came in and took over that team and turned trash like Perkins into a beast. Allen and Pierce had never been known for D before KG.

I never liked the idea of the Finals MVP, and arguably KG should have beat PP out for it, but for the playoffs? KG toasted him and everyone else.

bagwell368
09-07-2013, 04:22 PM
Dirk took his team to the finals twice and won one as the head chief. Dirk was always a contender to win titles but always had to fend of the lakers/spurs of the 2000's. He always made Conference finals or finals many times as the head Honcho. Dirk was clutch many times when they needed him. It was almost impossible to stop him from scoring. His scoring abilities were higher than lebron right now. Kg has defense but i guess his attitude some how rubbed the wrong way because he couldn't win.

KG is loved by his teammates (that play hard). KG gets nasty, in your face, and in your head of the players on other teams. He seems to need to be amped up. Big deal, look at it like pro wrestling. Larry Bird was a nasty trash talker, Dave Cowens was just mean. We like them tough and nasty in Boston. Not into soiree softies and 'itches here - one reason Rondo and his act make me puke.

SPURSFAN1
09-07-2013, 04:24 PM
KG is loved by his teammates (that play hard). KG gets nasty, in your face, and in your head of the players on other teams. He seems to need to be amped up. Big deal, look at it like pro wrestling. Larry Bird was a nasty trash talker, Dave Cowens was just mean. We like them tough and nasty in Boston. Not into soiree softies and 'itches here - one reason Rondo and his act make me puke.

Sorry man Dirk has a Finals MVP. KG none. No more debating.

/thread

SPURSFAN1
09-07-2013, 04:25 PM
and i dont even like dirk

ManRam
09-07-2013, 04:28 PM
I love both these players and think their legacies ultimately will be under-appreciated, but I do give the slight edge to KG...with no intent at all to disrespect Dirk, who is undoubtedly one of the best scorers we've ever seen.

FlashBolt
09-07-2013, 04:32 PM
Kevin Garnett is better because he can pass, defend, rebound, and does everything Dirk can do except not as long as of a range in shots. Dirk is pretty one dimensional some times whereas KG can do multiple things. Also think Dirk was surrounded by more talent than KG during their primes.

bagwell368
09-07-2013, 04:33 PM
KG was on Minny for 12 years. Dirk's first 12 years he had guys like this:

Finley, Nash, Terry, Kidd, Dampier, Howard....

KG had nothing like that in Minny.

Hoiberg, Marbury, Wally S., Billups (for 2 years)

Also, Dirk had a very good coach, and KG had Flip, KM's drinking buddy.

bagwell368
09-07-2013, 04:35 PM
Sorry man Dirk has a Finals MVP. KG none. No more debating.

/thread

Because the voting was done without any subjective considerations - like Pierce has never been a MVP, he's getting older, let's give it to him, sort of like how KG got DPOY instead of the MVP because he had one.

Do you know what inane means?

Kashmir13579
09-07-2013, 04:38 PM
KG easily

Jamiecballer
09-07-2013, 04:50 PM
It's valid. The only people that posted in here in opposition to what I have said are Celtics and Wolves fans which obviously lessens the validity of it. It's clear strong bias is running rampant in this thread. Every neutral party in here has said it's close or debatable. I wouldn'take a comparison thread if it wasn't debatable. My only issue in here was with the not even close comments.

well there, now you have one. i'm a neutral fan and it's not even close. for the first half of his career we wondered whether we were seeing the best forward in the history of the game by the time it was all over, watching KG play. Dirk was never must see TV.

lets be honest, if KG doesn't sacrifice when he goes to Boston it would be ridiculous to even pose the question.

SPURSFAN1
09-07-2013, 05:00 PM
One dimensional? That's a pretty dam good one dimensional scoring machine. he elevated his teamates game, which is by definition what makes you a great player. Why didn't KG have decent players? because legacies are made in the playoffs and he just couldn't get it done where as dirk made sure his players were given the opportunity to excel.

Jamiecballer
09-07-2013, 05:02 PM
One dimensional? That's a pretty dam good one dimensional scoring machine. he elevated his teamates game, which is by definition what makes you a great player. Why didn't KG have decent players? because legacies are made in the playoffs and he just couldn't get it done where as dirk made sure his players were given the opportunity to excel.

Kevin Garnett was unselfish to a fault. not a good argument in my opinion.

Clippersfan86
09-07-2013, 05:40 PM
Jamie sacrificed what LMAO? If KG doesn't go to Boston with those stars he's remembered as Tmac. Perennial first round loser. Great stats but mediicre team success. If he stayed in Minny his legacy would be MUCH worse, not greater. In other words he didn't "sacrifice" jack. His individual numbers didn't have a Bosh like drop off for example. In fact his first year in Boston when they won it he had a stat INCREASE over his previous Minny year.

LTBaByyy
09-07-2013, 05:47 PM
It's not over....

Dirk will play 4-5 more years
KG will play 2 at the most

Clippersfan86
09-07-2013, 05:47 PM
Lol at people citing Jason Terry and Erica Dampier as top teammates? Finley and Nash were gone early in Dirk's career as I stated earlier and Dirk's best runs and years came AFTER they left, with far less talent. Nash went to Phoenix one or two years before Dirk's finals run and before the 67 win season I'm pretty sure.

leprechaun5
09-07-2013, 05:49 PM
clippersfan you're becoming ridiculous ,just to let u know

Clippersfan86
09-07-2013, 05:55 PM
Says a guy with a KG sig who's making the extreme "KG, not even close" argument. Stop being ignorant.

LTBaByyy
09-07-2013, 05:57 PM
Outside of his 2011 squad Dirk spent years carrying mediocre talent, more so than KG IMO. He had talent early.on with Nash and Finley but most of the Mavs success came after those years.

Yes. A decade of 50 win seasons as the guy with no all star help

SPURSFAN1
09-07-2013, 06:15 PM
clippersfan you're becoming ridiculous ,just to let u know

kg slurpers

TheIlladelph16
09-07-2013, 06:41 PM
Neutral fan here.... My gut tells me that its KG. After reading the arguments presented on both sides here, its even more in favor of KG. I love Dirk, but the argument for him has gotten weaker and weaker in each page. Culminating with "Dirk has a finals MVP. KG doesn't. /Thread". That's not an argument, its stupidity.

AnthonyTyrael
09-07-2013, 06:50 PM
Dirk created and still creates much more mismatches than KG does. I think this is also a huge advantage for Dirk on the offensive end which gets overlooked a lot BUT also a huge disadvantage against Dirk when you compare those two, since it should have been easier for him on offense by that mean.

abe_froman
09-07-2013, 06:52 PM
Sorry man Dirk has a Finals MVP. KG none. No more debating.

/thread

so just because pp faked an injury so he could have an "inspiring"willis reed moment(why he got fmvp) ,that puts dirk above kg? kg outplayed pp for the 08 playoff run

Clippersfan86
09-07-2013, 06:59 PM
Yes. A decade of 50 win seasons as the guy with no all star help

Had KG not forced his way out of Minny he finishes as Tmac 2.0 as I said. Incredible individual with pathetic team success and perrenial first round exits outside of the WCF run. If Dirk had Pierce, Allen and Rondo he would have 2 or 3 rings no question IMO.

SPURSFAN1
09-07-2013, 07:03 PM
Had KG not forced his way out of Minny he finishes as Tmac 2.0 as I said. Incredible individual with pathetic team success and perrenial first round exits outside of the WCF run. If Dirk had Pierce, Allen and Rondo he would have 2 or 3 rings no question IMO.

.

LTBaByyy
09-07-2013, 07:23 PM
Had KG not forced his way out of Minny he finishes as Tmac 2.0 as I said. Incredible individual with pathetic team success and perrenial first round exits outside of the WCF run. If Dirk had Pierce, Allen and Rondo he would have 2 or 3 rings no question IMO.

Thank you.

Dirk should have 3 right now by doing it himself (2006 up by 2 games then refs and D Wade & 2007 Best team in NbA while also being MVP then met Don Nelson & Warriors that knew all the Mavs secrets). If he had Pierce, Allen, and Rondo he would have won those years and had 1 or 2 extra

leprechaun5
09-07-2013, 07:45 PM
Had KG not forced his way out of Minny he finishes as Tmac 2.0 as I said. Incredible individual with pathetic team success and perrenial first round exits outside of the WCF run. If Dirk had Pierce, Allen and Rondo he would have 2 or 3 rings no question IMO.

they won it in their first year together(with KG being by far the team best player) and were the clear favorites to repeat in 08-09 ( 27-2 to start the season ) then KG injury happened.They did come back to the finals in 2010 and if perkins played in that game 7 he wouldn't let Gasol grab 11 offensive boards .

Then age become a factor and they still were one quarter away of finals losing to heat in 7(where KG was absolutely best player on that celtics team and it's not even close).

The run he had with minnesota was the very first time that KG actually had a team while being there.I'm not the only one who thinks that if cassell(2nd best player on that team)/hudson were injury free that twolves team wins the title .After that year sprewell wants money to feed his family .One year he had a good team - he becomes MVP ,and timberwolves have the best record in the west .

KG is only behind TD in PF all time ranking .

SPURSFAN1
09-07-2013, 07:48 PM
they won it in their first year together(with KG being by far the team best player) and were the clear favorites to repeat in 08-09 ( 27-2 to start the season ) then KG injury happened.They did come back to the finals in 2010 and if perkins played in that game 7 he wouldn't let Gasol grab 11 offensive boards .

Then age become a factor and they still were one quarter away of finals losing to heat in 7(where KG was absolutely best player on that celtics team and it's not even close).

The run he had with minnesota was the very first time that KG actually had a team while being there.I'm not the only one who thinks that if cassell(2nd best player on that team)/hudson were injury free that twolves team wins the title .After that year sprewell wants money to feed his family .One year he had a good team - he becomes MVP ,and timberwolves have the best record in the west .

KG is only behind TD in PF all time ranking .

And then he left another team because he can't handle the pressure. Great leader and player.

DR_1
09-07-2013, 07:50 PM
Its not a joke, KG isn't the no brainer people wish he were, he shrunk in big moments unlike Dirk. Dirk actually raised his game come post season IMO.

This.

leprechaun5
09-07-2013, 07:51 PM
And then he left another team because he can't handle the pressure. Great leader and player.

you seem to be a naive kid .#ignored

TheNumber37
09-07-2013, 07:51 PM
KG for the defense alone.

Jamiecballer
09-07-2013, 07:57 PM
Jamie sacrificed what LMAO? If KG doesn't go to Boston with those stars he's remembered as Tmac. Perennial first round loser. Great stats but mediicre team success. If he stayed in Minny his legacy would be MUCH worse, not greater. In other words he didn't "sacrifice" jack. His individual numbers didn't have a Bosh like drop off for example. In fact his first year in Boston when they won it he had a stat INCREASE over his previous Minny year.
i don't know what you are talking about. his role and stats all sharply declined when he came to Boston. it's not even close really. he went from carrying a franchise to picking his spots as part of a three headed monster.

and you might be right about being a perennial one and done had he stayed in Minnesota, but the same could be said for almost any star playing for a franchise that ran like an expansion franchise.

topdog
09-07-2013, 08:01 PM
It's valid. The only people that posted in here in opposition to what I have said are Celtics and Wolves fans which obviously lessens the validity of it. It's clear strong bias is running rampant in this thread. Every neutral party in here has said it's close or debatable. I wouldn'take a comparison thread if it wasn't debatable. My only issue in here was with the not even close comments.

So, a fan of a team has no credibility about a particular player? That's absurd. I have never been a KG fan and grew weary of his on-court antics. I didn't like his playing style (fading finesse basketball). But I respected that he brought it every night and looked to elevate his teammates.

Just because we're fans of teams Garnett has been on doesn't mean we don't have valid opinions in this debate. We're not the homerish ones throwing out hypotheticals and exaggerating stats. We actually have a greater insight for having followed the careers of Garnett and his various nemesises (what is the plural of "nemesis") more closely.


Had KG not forced his way out of Minny he finishes as Tmac 2.0 as I said. Incredible individual with pathetic team success and perrenial first round exits outside of the WCF run. If Dirk had Pierce, Allen and Rondo he would have 2 or 3 rings no question IMO.

You're going to have to find some evidence to back that up if you want people to believe you because the intel coming out of the Garnett TRADE was that KG didn't ask for a trade and wasn't willing to go to Boston until after they got Ray Allen. It was actually the Wolves front office who was concerned about his impending free agency and whether they could re-tool the roster enough to avoid a re-build and make a $20M contract for Garnett worthwhile.


Thank you.

Dirk should have 3 right now by doing it himself (2006 up by 2 games then refs and D Wade & 2007 Best team in NbA while also being MVP then met Don Nelson & Warriors that knew all the Mavs secrets). If he had Pierce, Allen, and Rondo he would have won those years and had 1 or 2 extra

Sounds like you are basically arguing that Don Nelson had a lot to do with the Mavs winning (or losing in this case), but you fellas want to act as if Dirk just shot his way to 60 win seasons all by himself. Then, you want to bring up the Boston team whose identity was defense and say that Dirk would have won multiple titles with them :laugh2: This hypothetical stuff is just silly and I have a hard time seeing a frontcourt of Dirk and Perkins not getting destroyed by Gasol-Bynum-Odom but we won't go there because it's just a hypothetical.

Final thought here is that rating teammates of Dirk on offense is a bit misguided as various players were brought in knowing that Dirk needed defensive help, not offensive help. Guys like Adrian Griffin and Erick Dampier weren't there to score, but rather to protect Dirk on the defensive end.

ManningToTyree
09-07-2013, 08:32 PM
It's KG and it's really not all that close.

Clippersfan86
09-07-2013, 08:42 PM
i don't know what you are talking about. his role and stats all sharply declined when he came to Boston. it's not even close really. he went from carrying a franchise to picking his spots as part of a three headed monster.

and you might be right about being a perennial one and done had he stayed in Minnesota, but the same could be said for almost any star playing for a franchise that ran like an expansion franchise.

Look again. His shots, usage and stats went up year one in Boston, I'm almost sure.

SPURSFAN1
09-07-2013, 08:42 PM
Fans of bad teams choose stats and fans of good teams choose accomplishments.
I would pick Dirk on my team and it's not even close. I don't like bunny hop players.

topdog
09-07-2013, 09:34 PM
Fans of bad teams choose stats and fans of good teams choose accomplishments.
I would pick Dirk on my team and it's not even close. I don't like bunny hop players.

Random, non helpful assertion but your "accomplishments" argument backfires in the OP:




Dirk:
1.NBA champion (2011)
2.NBA Finals MVP (2011)
3.NBA Most Valuable Player (2007)
4.11 NBA All-Star (2002–2012)
5.4 All-NBA First Team (2005–2007, 2009)
6.5 All-NBA Second Team (2002–2003, 2008, 2010–2011)
7.3 All-NBA Third Team (2001, 2004, 2012)

KG:
1.NBA champion (2008)
2.NBA Most Valuable Player (2004)
3.15 NBA All-Star (1997–1998, 2000–2011, 2013)
4.NBA All-Star Game MVP (2003)
5.NBA Defensive Player of the Year (2008)
6.4 All-NBA First Team (2000, 2003–2004, 2008)
7.3 All-NBA Second Team (2001–2002, 2005)
8.2 All-NBA Third Team (1999, 2007)
9.9 NBA All-Defensive First Team (2000–2005, 2008–2009, 2011)
10.3 NBA All-Defensive Second Team (2006–2007, 2012)
11.NBA All-Rookie Second Team (1996)


Math is hard, right?

[Edited original post by Clippersfan86 to include list numbers i.e. 1-7 and 1-11]

SPURSFAN1
09-07-2013, 09:55 PM
Random, non helpful assertion but your "accomplishments" argument backfires in the OP:



Math is hard, right?

[Edited original post by Clippersfan86 to include list numbers i.e. 1-7 and 1-11]

No Finals MVP? that should be first. I guess KG is missing that one, lol
blank stats

Hawkeye15
09-07-2013, 09:56 PM
the only reason this is even a conversation is Dirk's playoff play. over the course of 90 games, KG is so easily the better player.

bagwell368
09-07-2013, 10:24 PM
One dimensional? That's a pretty dam good one dimensional scoring machine. he elevated his teamates game, which is by definition what makes you a great player. Why didn't KG have decent players? because legacies are made in the playoffs and he just couldn't get it done where as dirk made sure his players were given the opportunity to excel.

He didn't have good players because his Coach was substandard as was his GM on Minny. You need good players to win. Also the less good players you have like Dirk, the more D attention is aimed at the one start - like KG.

bagwell368
09-07-2013, 10:27 PM
Had KG not forced his way out of Minny he finishes as Tmac 2.0 as I said. Incredible individual with pathetic team success and perrenial first round exits outside of the WCF run. If Dirk had Pierce, Allen and Rondo he would have 2 or 3 rings no question IMO.

Rondo was a raw 2nd year player in 2007-2008 and not even one of the top 5 Celts. Allen was past his prime and PP's prime was done in 2007-2008. In 2008-2009 KG got hurt and that was that.

The facts are in the first 12 years of each career, Dirk had stronger teammates, coaching, and GM'ing.

Tony_Starks
09-07-2013, 10:29 PM
I'd roll with Dirk. KG has the edge defensively but Dirk wasn't exactly a slouch on D. He's actually a pretty solid rebounder to be on the perimeter as much as he is. Then offensively he's vastly superior, in the Larry Bird conversation.

bagwell368
09-07-2013, 10:31 PM
And then he left another team because he can't handle the pressure. Great leader and player.

KG was dealt both times. He agreed to go to Boston to win, how is that not facing pressure? He went the 2nd time to keep playing w/ PP and play for a team with a shot.

bagwell368
09-07-2013, 10:33 PM
I'd roll with Dirk. KG has the edge defensively but Dirk wasn't exactly a slouch on D. He's actually a pretty solid rebounder to be on the perimeter as much as he is. Then offensively he's vastly superior, in the Larry Bird conversation.

In talking about elite PF's Dirk is a slouch in that company. No match for KG, TD, Malone or McHale.

Durant is hype
09-07-2013, 10:44 PM
Look again. His shots, usage and stats went up year one in Boston, I'm almost sure.

No,he was arguably the best player in the planet in his T'Wolves days (04,05,06). In his Boston he was a star no doubt,but nothing compared to his heyday.

SPURSFAN1
09-07-2013, 10:45 PM
In talking about elite PF's Dirk is a slouch in that company. No match for KG, TD, Malone or McHale.

Don't put TD in with peasants please.

WHODAT8o8
09-07-2013, 10:48 PM
Jamie sacrificed what LMAO? If KG doesn't go to Boston with those stars he's remembered as Tmac. Perennial first round loser. Great stats but mediicre team success. If he stayed in Minny his legacy would be MUCH worse, not greater. In other words he didn't "sacrifice" jack. His individual numbers didn't have a Bosh like drop off for example. In fact his first year in Boston when they won it he had a stat INCREASE over his previous Minny year.

Good thing KG and da wolves had that two playoff series bye to get to the WCF, right? :crazy:
Grow up dude

WHODAT8o8
09-07-2013, 10:51 PM
I'd roll with Dirk. KG has the edge defensively but Dirk wasn't exactly a slouch on D. He's actually a pretty solid rebounder to be on the perimeter as much as he is. Then offensively he's vastly superior, in the Larry Bird conversation.

Still dont get why people are saying Dirk wasnt a slouch on D though? Wasnt people calling him "irk" because he had no D?

Tony_Starks
09-07-2013, 10:52 PM
In talking about elite PF's Dirk is a slouch in that company. No match for KG, TD, Malone or McHale.

I personally don't put KG in that discussion either. But between the two if its the last 5 minutes of the game I'm taking prime Dirk hands down.

Tony_Starks
09-07-2013, 10:57 PM
Still dont get why people are saying Dirk wasnt a slouch on D though? Wasnt people calling him "irk" because he had no D?

Because when he first came in the league he couldnt guard a chair. He progressively became a decent defender over the years though..

Jamiecballer
09-07-2013, 11:09 PM
Look again. His shots, usage and stats went up year one in Boston, I'm almost sure.

that is incorrect. he had a superb first year in Boston but the shots and usage did not go up. and after year one there is little question that he sacrificed some of his game for the others.

Jamiecballer
09-07-2013, 11:13 PM
I personally don't put KG in that discussion either. But between the two if its the last 5 minutes of the game I'm taking prime Dirk hands down.

good things games are won over 48 mins and not 5. let me guess, favorite player today is Rudy Gay?

FlashBolt
09-07-2013, 11:18 PM
I personally don't put KG in that discussion either. But between the two if its the last 5 minutes of the game I'm taking prime Dirk hands down.

Why must it be the 5 minutes of the game? Garnett has been pretty clutch as well. But, there is no reason for you to bring up the last 5 minutes as it is proves nothing in comparing players. By your definition, you would pick Durant or Melo over anyone. I wouldn't.

Tony_Starks
09-07-2013, 11:39 PM
good things games are won over 48 mins and not 5. let me guess, favorite player today is Rudy Gay?

Are we pretending like Dirk isn't a great player for the rest of the game or something? You know there is such a thing as being great a entire game AND being great in money time right?And comparing him to Gay? Lol ok man.....

Clippersfan86
09-08-2013, 12:35 AM
No,he was arguably the best player in the planet in his T'Wolves days (04,05,06). In his Boston he was a star no doubt,but nothing compared to his heyday.

God so many amateurs in this thread. Throw out bogus claims, then when proven wrong make it about something else. I never said KG in Boston>KG in Minny. I responded directly to somebody claiming KG had some huge sacrifice of numbers and stat drop when in actuality he produced MORE his first year in Boston than his last year in Minnesota, clearly proving that point wrong.

Clippersfan86
09-08-2013, 12:36 AM
Good thing KG and da wolves had that two playoff series bye to get to the WCF, right? :crazy:
Grow up dude

Did you read the rest of the thread? I mentioned the WCF run. In general he had a ton of 1st round exits Tmac style outside of that run and had he not gone to Boston and won the ring and had 3 ECF appearances.. he's in that Tmac category pretty much in the eyes of most.

topdog
09-08-2013, 12:39 AM
No Finals MVP? that should be first. I guess KG is missing that one, lol
blank stats

Blank stats, one defensive player of the year and 13 more all defense teams than Dirk. Just stop please...

Clippersfan86
09-08-2013, 12:42 AM
Rondo was a raw 2nd year player in 2007-2008 and not even one of the top 5 Celts. Allen was past his prime and PP's prime was done in 2007-2008. In 2008-2009 KG got hurt and that was that.

The facts are in the first 12 years of each career, Dirk had stronger teammates, coaching, and GM'ing.

You come at me about being bias and unreasonable then go and post something like this SMH. Even LAST year like 5 years later Pierce and Allen aren't done. In 07-08 they were at the start of a decline, not done by ANY stretch of the imagination. In the last 5 years since the title year for example Paul Pierce has aged beautifully putting up 20/5/4 over the span, without a big statistical drop off in ANY season.

Paul Pierce LAST YEAR is better than any form of Jason Terry that Dirk had to work with. Ray Allen wasn't done either and actually had a RESURGENCE the year AFTER the title in which his production and efficiency went up a pretty damn good amount. Allen didn't have a big drop off until just this last season. Ray Allen of 5 years ago, or even 3 years ago... is again a better option that Jason Terry at ANY point of Terry's career.

You're pushing your agenda to the point to where you're just sounding insane. Don't say things like "the facts are" then post a bunch of untrue BS. Go again and pull up the roster year by year and you'll quickly see over that 12 year span Dirk and KG had similarly talented teammates by the end of it. In KG's very early years he had worse talent than Dirk's early years... but by KG's mid-late career he had far BETTER teammates than Dirk did. The exception to this would be the 2011 Mavs which was as talented as any KG roster due to depth and how well the pieces fit.

FlashBolt
09-08-2013, 12:47 AM
I can't believe this is an argument. Garnett is a better player than Dirk, period. Dirk is a better offensive player but defensively, it's not even fair to argue. The totality of it puts Garnett in a higher ranking. Garnett is arguably a top 3 PF. Dirk can be argued for top 5, but in his prime, Garnett was neck and neck with Tim Duncan. His impact is far greater than Dirk's.

SPURSFAN1
09-08-2013, 12:59 AM
http://www.nba.com/history/finalsmvps.html

that's a small list. Dam.

Durant is hype
09-08-2013, 01:04 AM
God so many amateurs in this thread. Throw out bogus claims, then when proven wrong make it about something else. I never said KG in Boston>KG in Minny. I responded directly to somebody claiming KG had some huge sacrifice of numbers and stat drop when in actuality he produced MORE his first year in Boston than his last year in Minnesota, clearly proving that point wrong.

Okay in that case you're right. KG's 08 season was better than 07. What I don't understand is why are you using team accolades to discuss INDIVIDUAL players. Isn't that a amateur move?

SPURSFAN1
09-08-2013, 01:05 AM
Wow!
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/n/nowitdi01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/garneke01.html

kevin garnett has garbage win shares in the playoffs compared to Dirk. I did per 48 because kevin doesn't have many games.

proves all the dirk haters who actually dominated.

/thread

SPURSFAN1
09-08-2013, 01:09 AM
Wow!
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/n/nowitdi01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/garneke01.html

kevin garnett has garbage win shares in the playoffs compared to Dirk. I did per 48 because kevin doesn't have many games.

proves all the dirk haters who actually dominated.

/thread

i guess all the stat slurpers should believe Dirk is better because he produced higher win shares in the playoffs compared to KG. No contest. An end to all debates. Dirk impacted the floor way better than KG. Now we understand why Dirk made his teammates look good when he was the primary reason they even played decent.

Durant is hype
09-08-2013, 01:11 AM
You come at me about being bias and unreasonable then go and post something like this SMH. Even LAST year like 5 years later Pierce and Allen aren't done. In 07-08 they were at the start of a decline, not done by ANY stretch of the imagination. In the last 5 years since the title year for example Paul Pierce has aged beautifully putting up 20/5/4 over the span, without a big statistical drop off in ANY season.

Paul Pierce LAST YEAR is better than any form of Jason Terry that Dirk had to work with. Ray Allen wasn't done either and actually had a RESURGENCE the year AFTER the title in which his production and efficiency went up a pretty damn good amount. Allen didn't have a big drop off until just this last season. Ray Allen of 5 years ago, or even 3 years ago... is again a better option that Jason Terry at ANY point of Terry's career.

You're pushing your agenda to the point to where you're just sounding insane. Don't say things like "the facts are" then post a bunch of untrue BS. Go again and pull up the roster year by year and you'll quickly see over that 12 year span Dirk and KG had similarly talented teammates by the end of it. In KG's very early years he had worse talent than Dirk's early years... but by KG's mid-late career he had far BETTER teammates than Dirk did. The exception to this would be the 2011 Mavs which was as talented as any KG roster due to depth and how well the pieces fit.

Last year PP wasn't better than 07 Terry, his production was at an all star level.

Clippersfan86
09-08-2013, 01:17 AM
Okay in that case you're right. KG's 08 season was better than 07. What I don't understand is why are you using team accolades to discuss INDIVIDUAL players. Isn't that a amateur move?

When assessing where players rank on an all time list... team success factors in big time. The ultimate greats have both team and individual success. Although in this comparison in particular team success is relevant because Dirk was carrying mediocre casts to deep playoff runs.

Clippersfan86
09-08-2013, 01:18 AM
Last year PP wasn't better than 07 Terry, his production was at an all star level.

Last year statistically Pierce is still better but even if say it's debatable LAST YEAR for you... that's much different than his comment that Pierce was done in 07-08 LMAO.

Durant is hype
09-08-2013, 01:29 AM
When assessing where players rank on an all time list... team success factors in big time. The ultimate greats have both team and individual success. Although in this comparison in particular team success is relevant because Dirk was carrying mediocre casts to deep playoff runs.

Ironic you say that,because it was KG that had to carry mediocre supporting casts(T'Wolves days)

What years are you talking about? Even after Nash/Finley left he had great teammates.

The list of above average players on the 04-05 Mavs: Marquis Daniels,Alan Henderson,Josh Howard,Erick Dampier,and not but not least Jason Terry.

Via:http://www.thenbageek.com/teams/dal?season=2004

SPURSFAN1
09-08-2013, 01:30 AM
But duncans win shares eclipse both players by a lot. It just shows TD>DN>KG.

shep33
09-08-2013, 01:41 AM
I love Dirk, but this is easily KG.

KG is arguably a top 10 defensive player of all-time

FlashBolt
09-08-2013, 01:58 AM
But duncans win shares eclipse both players by a lot. It just shows TD>DN>KG.

So David Robinson is better than Shaq/LeBron/Duncan? Hmmm. Even better.. Dirk is the 14th best player of all time based on win shares.. Wow, where do you get these ideas?

Clippersfan86
09-08-2013, 02:07 AM
Ironic you say that,because it was KG that had to carry mediocre supporting casts(T'Wolves days)

What years are you talking about? Even after Nash/Finley left he had great teammates.

The list of above average players on the 04-05 Mavs: Marquis Daniels,Alan Henderson,Josh Howard,Erick Dampier,and not but not least Jason Terry.



Via:http://www.thenbageek.com/teams/dal?season=2004

Look again at the players you just named for a minute bro. Nothing special post Nash, Finley when he had his greatest success. When people start naming Eric Dampier as a big contributor, it's obvious he played with mediocre talent. May as well name Brendan Haywood and Shawn Bradley while we're at it SMH.

SPURSFAN1
09-08-2013, 02:11 AM
Duncan has around 33 winshares in the playoffs while david robinson has around 18. KG had abound 17. Shaq had 31. I don't understand what you're talking about. Oh, you mean regular season. Man we're talking about PLAYOFFS here. In which case I'm right.

Durant is hype
09-08-2013, 02:16 AM
Look again at the players you just named for a minute bro. Nothing special post Nash, Finley when he had his greatest success. When people start naming Eric Dampier as a big contributor, it's obvious he played with mediocre talent. May as well name Brendan Haywood and Shawn Bradley while we're at it SMH.

Eric Dampier wasn't flashy,didn't have a high PPG, and sure he didn't have crowd appeal or any appeal,but he did 3 things really well. Block shots,rebound & score efficiently.

If you think that's "mediocre" then you don't want me to name KG's teammates.

SPURSFAN1
09-08-2013, 02:20 AM
Eric Dampier wasn't flashy,didn't have a high PPG, and sure he didn't have crowd appeal or any appeal,but he did 3 things really well. Block shots,rebound & score efficiently.

If you think that's "mediocre" then you don't want me to name KG's teammates.

eric dampier? that guy got burned by ginobili so many times. that guy was responsible for the dallas losing so many games. he was really flat footed. that guy was garbage.

SPURSFAN1
09-08-2013, 02:28 AM
"Christopher Brodbeck 4 years ago
In my opinion Erick Dampier is the only reason the Mavs havent won any championships yet! He got lucky signing that big contract in 2004, they should trade or buy him out as soon as possible!
Great song by the way!"

look at all the comments about dampier.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-9fCiShxBc


someone actually made this. he has no hops too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4DOm2vmviA

Durant is hype
09-08-2013, 02:28 AM
eric dampier? that guy got burned by ginobili so many times. that guy was responsible for the dallas losing so many games. he was really flat footed. that guy was garbage.

A Center trying to check Manu? And he failed thus he sucks? Oh geez maybe let the other 29 centers try to guard Manu in a pick n roll. Just because he didn't score a lot doesn't make him trash. I'm curious how did he cost Dallas so much games? Wasn't he their starting center in that 06-07 year? Wasn't it Avery Johnson who decided to bench in the Golden State series? They wound up losing by the way.

Dude don't try to persuade me, with public perception,I'm not a soft core basketball fan.

SPURSFAN1
09-08-2013, 02:36 AM
A Center trying to check Manu? And he failed thus he sucks? Oh geez maybe let the other 29 centers try to guard Manu in a pick n roll. Just because he didn't score a lot doesn't make him trash. I'm curious how did he cost Dallas so much games? Wasn't he their starting center in that 06-07 year? Wasn't it Avery Johnson who decided to bench in the Golden State series? They wound up losing by the way.

Dude don't try to persuade me, with public perception,I'm not a soft core basketball fan.

Soft core basketball fan? Because everyone in dallas knows dampier is garbage. You must be related to him or something. That's why you're all offended and ***. I don't care what happened in 07. Dampier is a straight scrub. any rational basketball fan knows this.

FlashBolt
09-08-2013, 02:59 AM
Duncan has around 33 winshares in the playoffs while david robinson has around 18. KG had abound 17. Shaq had 31. I don't understand what you're talking about. Oh, you mean regular season. Man we're talking about PLAYOFFS here. In which case I'm right.

..... Are you serious? You're talking about total win shares for the entire playoffs. Tim Duncan accumulated so much because he has made the playoffs every year except one. You can't use that kind of argument. You're arguing that Derek Fisher is better than Russell Westbrook, Steve Nash, Chris Paul, Kevin Durant, Derrick Rose, and many more star players.. Yes, we're talking about playoffs here but you're forgetting that the best team wins in the playoffs, not the best player. Just ask MJ. He did not win a thing until he got a team going. Ask LeBron if he would've won if it wasn't for Allen and Shane Battier knocking those threes. Ask Dirk who would've won if Terry hadn't dominated that finals series. More importantly, ask Duncan why he won against the Cleveland Cavailers.

SPURSFAN1
09-08-2013, 03:09 AM
..... Are you serious? You're talking about total win shares for the entire playoffs. Tim Duncan accumulated so much because he has made the playoffs every year except one. You can't use that kind of argument. You're arguing that Derek Fisher is better than Russell Westbrook, Steve Nash, Chris Paul, Kevin Durant, Derrick Rose, and many more star players.. Yes, we're talking about playoffs here but you're forgetting that the best team wins in the playoffs, not the best player. Just ask MJ. He did not win a thing until he got a team going. Ask LeBron if he would've won if it wasn't for Allen and Shane Battier knocking those threes. Ask Dirk who would've won if Terry hadn't dominated that finals series. More importantly, ask Duncan why he won against the Cleveland Cavailers.

Steve nash played 120 games while derek played 240 games and barely edged out steve nash. look a little deeper man and you'll get ur answers. jeez. i don't know if you can partially look at things.

and the other players haven't been the league as many years as derek fisher.

I compared similar players to similar playoff years. ur straight everywhere man. you can't even prove your point right. getting very desperate. you can't disprove me and now ur getting upset.

FlashBolt
09-08-2013, 03:25 AM
Steve nash played 120 games while derek played 240 games and barely edged out steve nash. look a little deeper man and you'll get ur answers. jeez. i don't know if you can partially look at things.

and the other players haven't been the league as many years as derek fisher.

I compared similar players to similar playoff years. ur straight everywhere man. you can't even prove your point right. getting very desperate. you can't disprove me and now ur getting upset.

No, my friend. It is you who is getting angry and frustrated because I made you a fool. You used that argument for Duncan but now it doesn't apply to anyone else? I was calculating everything based off your criteria for who the better player is. You seem to base it off Playoffs W/S, something that states that Derek Fisher is better than Rose, Durant, Paul, Westbrook, and Nash. If you didn't want to use that argument due to the amount of playoff games, why did you even use it at all? You also state that you compare players to similar playoff years (it took me a while to understand the deeper meaning because you didn't write that very well), and I'm confused because it was you who decided to put Tim Duncan over KG based off the Playoffs W/S. Don't get me wrong, TD is the best PF and shouldn't be compared against any other PF. However, TD has over 100 playoff games on Garnett. Why did you compare these two and say it's not fair to compare Nash to Fisher because of the amount of playoff games? Don't backtrack your statement. Accept that you were confused and now realized that it was the wrong calculation - because it is. I have nothing against anyone. You are proven wrong and result to insults and cretin-like replies.

JWorthy42
09-08-2013, 03:37 AM
Give me Garnett.

SPURSFAN1
09-08-2013, 03:42 AM
No, my friend. It is you who is getting angry and frustrated because I made you a fool. You used that argument for Duncan but now it doesn't apply to anyone else? I was calculating everything based off your criteria for who the better player is. You seem to base it off Playoffs W/S, something that states that Derek Fisher is better than Rose, Durant, Paul, Westbrook, and Nash. If you didn't want to use that argument due to the amount of playoff games, why did you even use it at all? You also state that you compare players to similar playoff years (it took me a while to understand the deeper meaning because you didn't write that very well), and I'm confused because it was you who decided to put Tim Duncan over KG based off the Playoffs W/S. Don't get me wrong, TD is the best PF and shouldn't be compared against any other PF. However, TD has over 100 playoff games on Garnett. Why did you compare these two and say it's not fair to compare Nash to Fisher because of the amount of playoff games? Don't backtrack your statement. Accept that you were confused and now realized that it was the wrong calculation - because it is. I have nothing against anyone. You are proven wrong and result to insults and cretin-like replies.

Look @55hole. Kevin Garnett played a total of 5033 minutes of playoff basketball. He produced 15.8 win shares. Tim Duncan played 8150 minutes and produced 33.1 win shares. For Kevin Garnett to produce 33.1 win shares, he has to play 10544 minutes total to catch tim duncan. Let me break down the math for you. (5033min * 33.1w/s) / (15.8 w/s) = 10544mins

Do you see now? is it so hard to understand?

He would need to play more than 2000 more minutes than tim duncan to produce what tim duncan brings to the table.

FlashBolt
09-08-2013, 03:47 AM
No, my friend. It is you who is getting angry and frustrated because I made you a fool. You used that argument for Duncan but now it doesn't apply to anyone else? I was calculating everything based off your criteria for who the better player is. You seem to base it off Playoffs W/S, something that states that Derek Fisher is better than Rose, Durant, Paul, Westbrook, and Nash. If you didn't want to use that argument due to the amount of playoff games, why did you even use it at all? You also state that you compare players to similar playoff years (it took me a while to understand the deeper meaning because you didn't write that very well), and I'm confused because it was you who decided to put Tim Duncan over KG based off the Playoffs W/S. Don't get me wrong, TD is the best PF and shouldn't be compared against any other PF. However, TD has over 100 playoff games on Garnett. Why did you compare these two and say it's not fair to compare Nash to Fisher because of the amount of playoff games? Don't backtrack your statement. Accept that you were confused and now realized that it was the wrong calculation - because it is. I have nothing against anyone. You are proven wrong and result to insults and cretin-like replies.

Look @55hole. Kevin Garnett played a total of 5033 minutes of playoff basketball. He produced 15.8 win shares. Tim Duncan played 8150 minutes and produced 33.1 win shares. For Kevin Garnett to produce 33.1 win shares, he has to play 10544 minutes total to catch tim duncan. Let me break down the math for you. (5033min * 33.1w/s) / (15.8 w/s) = 10544mins

Do you see now? is it so hard to understand?

Great, you googled the formula and found out that Duncan has played more playoffs minutes than Garnett! Look, you went about it in the wrong way. Why didn't you just use w/s per 48? You stated that Duncan had a w/s of 33 and that leads everyone to believe that you judge a player based off their total career w/s. Let's be civil here. There is no need to enrage yourself over a basketball discussion. Are you using p48 w/s? Yes or no?

SPURSFAN1
09-08-2013, 03:52 AM
Great, you googled the formula and found out that Duncan has played more playoffs minutes than Garnett! Look, you went about it in the wrong way. Why didn't you just use w/s per 48? You stated that Duncan had a w/s of 33 and that leads everyone to believe that you judge a player based off their total career w/s. Let's be civil here. There is no need to enrage yourself over a basketball discussion. Are you using p48 w/s? Yes or no?

im using total minutes played compared to their total w/s. do you understand what that means?

FlashBolt
09-08-2013, 04:32 AM
Great, you googled the formula and found out that Duncan has played more playoffs minutes than Garnett! Look, you went about it in the wrong way. Why didn't you just use w/s per 48? You stated that Duncan had a w/s of 33 and that leads everyone to believe that you judge a player based off their total career w/s. Let's be civil here. There is no need to enrage yourself over a basketball discussion. Are you using p48 w/s? Yes or no?

im using total minutes played compared to their total w/s. do you understand what that means?

I'm confused as to why you would do that when you can just use p48 for an easier comparison. Disregard that. So you would divide Garnett's total w/s by the amount of minutes played and the higher the number, the better? Please paint me a picture with how you would average those numbers out. It's unfair to compare their total w/s considering Duncan has had the luxury o playing for a great cast throughout his career. Would you say it's fair if we average those numbers out? I would like to see your calculations, it's more of a psychologic thing for me.

MTar786
09-08-2013, 05:59 AM
what kind of joke is this?


Kg is second only to Duncan.
Thats it.

Dirk is the second most overated dude in the ****ing history of the game just behind Iverson.

you could argue that kg was even better than duncan. im not saying that it would be socially accepted by everyone. but in my opinion they are equals. the best two pf's of all time.

kg lead his team in points per game, assists per game, blocks per game, steals per game and rebounds per game. And let me tell you, thats not only because he barely had good teammates but mostly because of how great and all around player he was. his defense is epic also. i may actually take him over duncan all time pf too. he was that great. his turn around fadeaway was like a guaranteed bucket too. it used to drive me crazy when we played against him. i think kg is one of the underrated under appreciated players to ever play. how he is so low on PSD's all time ranking just proves that too

AnthonyTyrael
09-08-2013, 07:30 AM
They didn't even play head to head vs. each other most of the time I guess. How often went Dirk against KG and the other way around? Or them against Timmy?

I know there are stats to look at for head to head comparisons on basketball-reference but I'm not much into stats.

Also, no matter how high you rank one or the other out of those two, I think none of them belongs to the top three PFs ever. Timmy for sure at # 1 (if he's not a Center for you anyway, another question often asked) but then there are plenty of other players in the history of that sports who have also a case being considere top 3 all time.

No offense but it's somewhat narrowminded to look just at the past 15 years, because most guys never saw all those other all time greats compete. I've just seen the modern era, over the past 22 years and yes, KG, Timmy and Dirk are unique. There has been some evolution on the PF position which they brought to the game over the course of the past years but all of them are very different players. Due to talent, style, abilites or origin.

bagwell368
09-08-2013, 07:54 AM
You come at me about being bias and unreasonable then go and post something like this SMH. Even LAST year like 5 years later Pierce and Allen aren't done.

I never said that they were done, I said that they were in decline, which is true. Having multiple HOF'ers in decline together is obviously better than just having one, and tends to prop up their performance a bit too, since a fading star all things considered will do better on a 55 win team than a 35 win team. Why common sense and objective reality should be the target of snarky comment like this I have no idea.


In 07-08 they were at the start of a decline, not done by ANY stretch of the imagination. In the last 5 years since the title year for example Paul Pierce has aged beautifully putting up 20/5/4 over the span, without a big statistical drop off in ANY season.

You need to look deeper into the stats. Take a look at WS/48 or ORtg or FG%. I find it's better to be armed with the facts before one makes claims that are false.


Paul Pierce LAST YEAR is better than any form of Jason Terry that Dirk had to work with. Ray Allen wasn't done either and actually had a RESURGENCE the year AFTER the title in which his production and efficiency went up a pretty damn good amount. Allen didn't have a big drop off until just this last season. Ray Allen of 5 years ago, or even 3 years ago... is again a better option that Jason Terry at ANY point of Terry's career.

Rubbish. JT was better in 5 seasons w/ Dirk than PP was last year, and if we add in the playoffs, it's even more grim for PP when playoffs are included - he was brutal last year.


You're pushing your agenda to the point to where you're just sounding insane.

You're using opinions and subjective conclusions and to bolster your arguments - or read it this way - you don't know how to read a stat sheet or watch a game.


Don't say things like "the facts are" then post a bunch of untrue BS.

So sorry, the facts back me up, not you. The average fan and paid NBA writers do as well.


Go again and pull up the roster year by year and you'll quickly see over that 12 year span Dirk and KG had similarly talented teammates by the end of it.

I already did, which was the basis of my opinion. Dirk had more talent and better coaching then KG did. If you claim you did review these rosters than I have to call into question your objectivity and/or ability to parse one player vs another.


In KG's very early years he had worse talent than Dirk's early years... but by KG's mid-late career he had far BETTER teammates than Dirk did. The exception to this would be the 2011 Mavs which was as talented as any KG roster due to depth and how well the pieces fit.

Again I'm talking first 12 years of each career, which doesn't include Pierce - whom you already went off on - so I'm afraid you failed to count to 12 properly. Dirk's 2011 team doesn't count either.

5ass
09-08-2013, 08:44 AM
For any1 saying they'd take Dirk over KG bcz Dirk is a legit #1 option, thats ********. Give prime KG the 2011 Mavs roster and their defense would be so good with Kidd, Marion, Chandler and Garnett that KG becomes a viable #1 option on offense.

WadeKobe
09-08-2013, 08:44 AM
KG by a good amount. KG is #2 all time. Dirk is behind at least Duncan, KG, Chuck, Malone, and Rodman, at the very least.

bagwell368
09-08-2013, 08:55 AM
Wow!
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/n/nowitdi01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/garneke01.html

kevin garnett has garbage win shares in the playoffs compared to Dirk. I did per 48 because kevin doesn't have many games.

proves all the dirk haters who actually dominated.

/thread (you wish)

I like Dirk fine, he's just not the 2nd best PF of all time as some have said here or better than KG.

Win Shares are a dangerous stat in the first place. When comparing a player with an average team of 50 wins (.610) in the regular season (KG) vs 55 (.670) for Dirk, you must consider how higher seeding results in easier series and more wins. Win Shares are based on WINS, so star players that play for teams that win more tend to do better in win shares when considering players of roughly equal talent. Also defense isn't captured nearly as well in Wins Shares as offense is.

7 of KG's 15 years in the playoffs his team has been seeded worse than 4th (6, 7, 8, 6, 8, 5, 7) - an average of 6.7 in those 7 seasons. DN's 12 years in the playoffs finds him with only 5 seeds lower than 4th (5, 5, 7, 6, 7) - an average of 6.0.

Dirk's teams playoff record is 64-64 with a better seeding, and stronger rosters the first 12 years for both. KG's teams playoff record is: 66-65 (most of those with the Celts - and many of them in his decline phase). Both have a title, but KG played in the playoff series before and after his prime and Dirk never has - another consideration which is being largely ignored here. Also since KG came to the Celts he was asked to focus on D and moving the ball (his USG% dropped notably since the deal).

bagwell368
09-08-2013, 08:56 AM
KG by a good amount. KG is #2 all time. Dirk is behind at least Duncan, KG, Chuck, Malone, and Rodman, at the very least.

No way I put Dirk behind Rodman. Dirk's D is a lot better than Rodman's O.

bagwell368
09-08-2013, 09:01 AM
im using total minutes played compared to their total w/s. do you understand what that means?

As important EQ's for minutes played per game or season is the record of the team. Win Shares are meant to be 1 to 1 with wins (although there is usually a small variance). TD's teams have on average won 5 more games per season than KG's. If you look at KG's adn TD's WS as percentage of team wins they are much closer than with just raw WS.

Bill Russell can be parsed into his true place in his era by doing that. Wilt was more responsible for his teams wins than Russell, so was Oscar. West and Petit were close to Bill.

bagwell368
09-08-2013, 09:03 AM
Duncan has around 33 winshares in the playoffs while david robinson has around 18. KG had abound 17. Shaq had 31. I don't understand what you're talking about. Oh, you mean regular season. Man we're talking about PLAYOFFS here. In which case I'm right.

How many games did they play, what were the team records, the seedings on average, etc.

bagwell368
09-08-2013, 09:07 AM
Look @55hole. Kevin Garnett played a total of 5033 minutes of playoff basketball. He produced 15.8 win shares. Tim Duncan played 8150 minutes and produced 33.1 win shares. For Kevin Garnett to produce 33.1 win shares, he has to play 10544 minutes total to catch tim duncan. Let me break down the math for you. (5033min * 33.1w/s) / (15.8 w/s) = 10544mins

Do you see now? is it so hard to understand?

He would need to play more than 2000 more minutes than tim duncan to produce what tim duncan brings to the table.

It's trash logic. TD played for better teams. KG was swarmed while on Minny since there was no one else to worry about. On Boston he could have done much better offensively the first few years but they wanted a focus on the D, so he did.

On balance TD is better than KG, but it's 1A and 1B, nobody else is near them. Malone has the next best argument but if you actually saw them all play, it's clear w/o stats.

Jamiecballer
09-08-2013, 10:00 AM
Are we pretending like Dirk isn't a great player for the rest of the game or something? You know there is such a thing as being great a entire game AND being great in money time right?And comparing him to Gay? Lol ok man.....

i'm not comparing him to Gay. Dirk is a great great player. but if the last 5 mins carry so much weight to you I would assume you have an inflated opinion of guys like Gay as well. I value the total 48 mins far more than i do any particular subset of them and using that criteria Garnett is definitely the better player.

Clippersfan86
09-08-2013, 10:03 AM
Eric Dampier wasn't flashy,didn't have a high PPG, and sure he didn't have crowd appeal or any appeal,but he did 3 things really well. Block shots,rebound & score efficiently.

If you think that's "mediocre" then you don't want me to name KG's teammates.

I know what he did. Point is he was far from a star, flashy or not. He was a good center at times but nothing to write home about or use as an example of high quality teammates. As I said before Dirk has never played with an all star besides early in his career when he had the LEAST help. So this isn't the KG/Duncan argument you are making it out to be. Both guys carried average talent a good portion of their careers but if anybody did it for more years it's Dirk.

Jamiecballer
09-08-2013, 10:22 AM
here is why i will take Garnett and IMO it's not even close.

The first thing I ask myself is, is Nowitzki's advantage in performance in the post-season (which is small but undeniable, statistically) enough to off-set the definite skill and total game that Garnett has on Nowitzki over a 1,323 game career?

not even close. then i ask myself, what more could a guy whose primary ability is not scoring do to elevate those TWolves teams he played for?

Garnett's problem, if you can call it that, is that he cares way more about making the right basketball play than trying to do it all himself. Is that a bad trait to have when your best skill isn't scoring the basketball? In playoff basketball Dirk has every right to say, i'm the best scorer give me the ball and get out of my way. What is Garnett going to do, tell guys to get out of my way I'm going to defend everyone?

A lot of those playoff teams in Minnesota were borderline expansion teams and Garnett got burned for playing the same way in the post-season that he played for 48 mins of every regular season game - make the right basketball play, trust your teammates. Some people might penalize him for that but not me. Give me the guy who has the discipline to make the right play every time and I will take my chances.

he was truly a once in a lifetime talent, Dirk as great as he is, is not.

hugepatsfan
09-08-2013, 12:07 PM
I did a little work today to try and account for Dirk having a longer prime. I consider KG's prime from the 99-00 season to the 07-08 season. Before that, he was still kind of raw (very good for a couple of years before that but not his prime IMO). I consider Dirk's prime to be from the 00-01 season to the 10-11 season. So Dirk's prime was a couple of years longer. In KG's prime, he played 61 playoff games. Dirk played 124.

People want to talk about Cassell and all the help KG had... that was 1 playoff run. Only 2 times in KG's entire prime did he ever have a good amount of help around him. He made it to the WCF before losing to Kobe + Shaq one of those times and the other time he won a title w/ BOS. (And even though he didn't win Finals MVP you're flat out stupid if you think he wasn't the most valuable player on the team - Pierce just scored more points so he got the award).

FlashBolt
09-08-2013, 12:21 PM
I don't this this is even a debate. Dirk vs Malone or Barkley would be a better argument. Garnett was an absolute TD level during his prime, not to mention he didn't have much to work with. He can defend, pass, rebound, jumper, post moves, and is a great leader. Asides from his long range and free throws, what can Dirk do better than Garnett? It's easily Garnett and this is not a strike at Dirk. He's the greatest European NBA player.

SPURSFAN1
09-08-2013, 12:26 PM
I don't this this is even a debate. Dirk vs Malone or Barkley would be a better argument. Garnett was an absolute TD level during his prime, not to mention he didn't have much to work with. He can defend, pass, rebound, jumper, post moves, and is a great leader. Asides from his long range and free throws, what can Dirk do better than Garnett? It's easily Garnett and this is not a strike at Dirk. He's the greatest European NBA player.

Dirk was so gifted offensively it wasn't even funny. That guy was a power foward shooting threes. Then he'd take you off the dribble if you get to close to him. Then he had that mid range fade away off of one foot shot. impossible to guard. He could shoot from anywhere on the floor. That's why bruce bowen would guard him at times. Someone had to be quick on their feet to guard the perimeter and good defensively to guard his size in the paint.

FlashBolt
09-08-2013, 12:33 PM
I don't this this is even a debate. Dirk vs Malone or Barkley would be a better argument. Garnett was an absolute TD level during his prime, not to mention he didn't have much to work with. He can defend, pass, rebound, jumper, post moves, and is a great leader. Asides from his long range and free throws, what can Dirk do better than Garnett? It's easily Garnett and this is not a strike at Dirk. He's the greatest European NBA player.

Dirk was so gifted offensively it wasn't even funny. That guy was a power foward shooting threes. Then he'd take you off the dribble if you get to close to him. Then he had that mid range fade away off of one foot shot. impossible to guard. He could shoot from anywhere on the floor. That's why bruce bowen would guard him at times. Someone had to be quick on their feet to guard the perimeter and good defensively to guard his size in the paint.

Well, we are aware of what Dirk can do on the offensive end. At the end of the day, asides from the better mid range, free throw, and three pointer, what can Dirk do better? Remember, Dirk is a better free throw shooter, mid range shooter, and three point shooter than Duncan as well.

SPURSFAN1
09-08-2013, 12:39 PM
Well, we are aware of what Dirk can do on the offensive end. At the end of the day, asides from the better mid range, free throw, and three pointer, what can Dirk do better? Remember, Dirk is a better free throw shooter, mid range shooter, and three point shooter than Duncan as well.

Lets just put it this way. Dirks offensive output with his regular defense eclipses KG's good defense and offense. While he wouldn't be able to eclipse Tim Duncan's offense and defense. Stop trying to compare duncan with KG or Dirk man. That's a whole other thread and any sane person picks Tim Duncan. from the words of charles barkley "tim duncan is the greatest power foward of all time".

FlashBolt
09-08-2013, 12:45 PM
Well, we are aware of what Dirk can do on the offensive end. At the end of the day, asides from the better mid range, free throw, and three pointer, what can Dirk do better? Remember, Dirk is a better free throw shooter, mid range shooter, and three point shooter than Duncan as well.

Lets just put it this way. Dirks offensive output with his regular defense eclipses KG's good defense and offense. While he wouldn't be able to eclipse Tim Duncan's offense and defense. Stop trying to compare duncan with KG or Dirk man. That's a whole other thread and any sane person picks Tim Duncan. from the words of charles barkley "tim duncan is the greatest power foward of all time".

Because your arguments are completely invalid. Are you using thhe eye test again? Garnett was clearly the better player throughout his career. Yes, Dirk's offensive output is great. However, his offensive output is better than Tim Duncan as well. You mentioned Tim, not me. I'm just using Tim as proof as to why a better offensive player does not beat a good offensive player and great defender. TD is hands down the greatest PF but that doesn't mean we can't use him in comparisons. KG and TD are very similar players. Your w/s argument was incredibly flawed and inaccurate. Everyone knows w/s works out best for winning teams. It's also impossible to judge a players output as there are intangibles that go unnoticed. Simply put, you really have no legitimate argument as to why Dirk is better than KG other than the offensive arsenal of Dirk.

SPURSFAN1
09-08-2013, 12:53 PM
Maybe because Tim's Offense was just slightly worse to Dirk and his Defense was slightly worse than KG. But his sum is greater than both players. Come on man. I have to stop answering you now. You make no sense and just throw stuff out there like it's going to disprove me. It hasn't and everything points to TD>DN>KG. I use the eye test, the stat test, the accomplishments test, the everything test. that's how those players line up.

beliges
09-08-2013, 01:02 PM
You can make a case for KG being the best PF of all time. You can't make that kind of argument for Dirk. Its gotta be KG.

FlashBolt
09-08-2013, 01:06 PM
Maybe because Tim's Offense was just slightly worse to Dirk and his Defense was slightly worse than KG. But his sum is greater than both players. Come on man. I have to stop answering you now. You make no sense and just throw stuff out there like it's going to disprove me. It hasn't and everything points to TD>DN>KG. I use the eye test, the stat test, the accomplishments test, the everything test. that's how those players line up.

I cannot take you seriously. I make no sense yet you used w/s to justify why Dirk is better? That's the absolute #1 sign of someone who doesn't make sense. If you knew what w/s meant, you wouldn't have used it. It's incredibly flawed and is an equation of numbers that ultimately fails to show a player's true value. TD and KG's offense are incredibly similar, so similar that Duncan's offensive numbers are nearly identical. I'm giving you facts, you're just giving me words out of frustration because you can't seem to crack the code. You're saying I'm trying to disprove you, yet you have no proof. Give us legitimate proof. You used w/s, everyone shot you down as to why it doesn't work. Now you abandoned it because you can't handle the arguments if you continued towards that direction. There's a reason why more people are choosing KG over Dirk. It's visible you aren't using the correct tests.

SPURSFAN1
09-08-2013, 01:18 PM
I cannot take you seriously. I make no sense yet you used w/s to justify why Dirk is better? That's the absolute #1 sign of someone who doesn't make sense. If you knew what w/s meant, you wouldn't have used it. It's incredibly flawed and is an equation of numbers that ultimately fails to show a player's true value. TD and KG's offense are incredibly similar, so similar that Duncan's offensive numbers are nearly identical. I'm giving you facts, you're just giving me words out of frustration because you can't seem to crack the code. You're saying I'm trying to disprove you, yet you have no proof. Give us legitimate proof. You used w/s, everyone shot you down as to why it doesn't work. Now you abandoned it because you can't handle the arguments if you continued towards that direction. There's a reason why more people are choosing KG over Dirk. It's visible you aren't using the correct tests.

You want proof? You got it.

3 FINALS MVPs > 1 FINALS MVP >ZERO, NADA NOTHING MVPs.

FlashBolt
09-08-2013, 01:31 PM
You want proof? You got it.

3 FINALS MVPs > 1 FINALS MVP >ZERO, NADA NOTHING MVPs.

Oh good, the MVP/rings argument. Guess you couldn't think of any logical evidence that would actually put Dirk over KG. Funny how I discredit you every time and all you do is result to angry replies. You need to troll on another thread. You turned a great discussion to a "me like, me like" debate. And Garnett does have has a MVP. You might want to rephrase your wording. You mean "NADA, NO FINALS MVP", right?

LTBaByyy
09-08-2013, 01:41 PM
KG by a good amount. KG is #2 all time. Dirk is behind at least Duncan, KG, Chuck, Malone, and Rodman, at the very least.

Hahahahahaha Wow.

TD
KG
Dirk
Barkley
Malone

The rest

SPURSFAN1
09-08-2013, 01:42 PM
Oh good, the MVP/rings argument. Guess you couldn't think of any logical evidence that would actually put Dirk over KG. Funny how I discredit you every time and all you do is result to angry replies. You need to troll on another thread. You turned a great discussion to a "me like, me like" debate. And Garnett does have has a MVP. You might want to rephrase your wording. You mean "", right?

you're right. NADA, NO FINALS MVP. i used logic and u got upset. no use in debating with u.

LTBaByyy
09-08-2013, 01:50 PM
If Dirk went to the Heat w/ Lebron and Wade that year instead of Bosh y'all would be saying Dirk right now

If KG stayed with T Wolves and won by himself with no all star help y'all would say KG

PSD

Jamiecballer
09-08-2013, 01:54 PM
you're right. NADA, NO FINALS MVP. i used logic and u got upset. no use in debating with u.

i'd be willing to wager that you weren't a serious basketball fan until at least 2005. you don't seem to remember just how great Garnett was.

SPURSFAN1
09-08-2013, 02:05 PM
attacking my credentials? hahahahaa. dude you're a loser. i'm probably older than you and watched more tape than you.

Clippersfan86
09-08-2013, 02:26 PM
Bagwell keep backpeddling. You used the exact word "done" then denied saying it. Saying that Terry had 5 seasons better than Pierce even of last year takes away the little credibility you may have had. Besides you implied 5 years ago Pierce and Allen, not just last year. Terry has NEVER had the all around impact of Pierce. Terry is a potent, streaky scorer and not much else. You're the worst kind of fan IMO. The kind who will put down a great player just to elevate another. Sound more like a KG fan than a team fan to me. Pierce is a greater Celtic than KG ever was and you don't seem to understand or appreciate this.

Pierce is quite possibly the most underrated and disrespected star of this era.

hugepatsfan
09-08-2013, 02:48 PM
In terms of contributions to the Celtics? Sure Pierce is ahead. And in the BOS forum there's a top 50 Celtics list where Bags accordingly has Pierce over KG. But for their career as a whole... Pierce isn't even in the same universe as KG. Not even remotely close.

Jamiecballer
09-08-2013, 03:02 PM
attacking my credentials? hahahahaa. dude you're a loser. i'm probably older than you and watched more tape than you.

i wasn't attacking your credentials at all. you sound like someone who missed Garnett's peak that is all. take it easy big guy.

topdog
09-08-2013, 03:24 PM
This thread has become an absolute joke. It should be closed because these Dirk arguments are pathetic and unfoundedly arrogant.

Not to mention that Garnett's defensive accolades have been completely ignored despite having 13 more than Dirk.

leprechaun5
09-08-2013, 03:29 PM
this thread has become an absolute joke. It should be closed because these dirk arguments are pathetic and unfoundedly arrogant.

not to mention that garnett's defensive accolades have been completely ignored despite having 13 more than dirk.

this

WadeKobe
09-08-2013, 03:46 PM
No way I put Dirk behind Rodman. Dirk's D is a lot better than Rodman's O.

The gap between Rodman's d and reb is a gulf dirk's o could never make up.

Rebounding is more valuable than scoring, especially offensive, and t has been proven empirically time and time again.

SPURSFAN1
09-08-2013, 03:53 PM
The gap between Rodman's d and reb is a gulf dirk's o could never make up.

Rebounding is more valuable than scoring, especially offensive, and t has been proven empirically time and time again.

Bagwell is comparing their weakness' not rodmans D to Dirk's D.

SPURSFAN1
09-08-2013, 03:57 PM
This thread has become an absolute joke. It should be closed because these Dirk arguments are pathetic and unfoundedly arrogant.

Not to mention that Garnett's defensive accolades have been completely ignored despite having 13 more than Dirk.

Yes close this thread because it's exposing the myth that KG is better than Dirk. i showed the stat comparison and it's in favor of Dirk. The major accolade(Finals MVP). Dirk comes out on top. Let's just shut down all forums from now own because the weak of heart can't take their loved player critiqued.

leprechaun5
09-08-2013, 04:03 PM
yes close this thread because it's exposing the myth that kg is better than dirk. I showed the stat comparison and it's in favor of dirk. The major accolade(finals mvp). Dirk comes out on top. Let's just shut down all forums from now own because the weak of heart can't take their loved player critiqued.

looooooooooooooooooooooool

topdog
09-08-2013, 04:28 PM
Yes close this thread because it's exposing the myth that KG is better than Dirk. i showed the stat comparison and it's in favor of Dirk. The major accolade(Finals MVP). Dirk comes out on top. Let's just shut down all forums from now own because the weak of heart can't take their loved player critiqued.

Dude. You're the one who keeps ending your lame posts with "/thread." I'm thinking of adding you to my ignore list but I think I'll stay tuned so that I can report your inevitable trolling and get you out of here.

Best wishes,

-Someone who actually wants to debate basketball (not act like a douche)

SPURSFAN1
09-08-2013, 04:39 PM
Dude. You're the one who keeps ending your lame posts with "/thread." I'm thinking of adding you to my ignore list but I think I'll stay tuned so that I can report your inevitable trolling and get you out of here.

Best wishes,

-Someone who actually wants to debate basketball (not act like a douche)

lol. dam now you ruined my weekend. hahaaha
i haven't seen so many regular season stats until i came to a KG thread.

Clippersfan86
09-08-2013, 04:57 PM
Topdog stop picking sides and use some objectivity. I'm going to post some of the bogus claims I've disputed and tell me if I'm being unfair.

1. Jason Terry was just as good as Sam Cassell during the mid 00's.

2. Pierce was "done" after 2007-2008, despite the 20/5/4 averages in the 5 seasons since.

3. Jason Terry was as much help as a 2nd option as Celtics Pierce or Allen.

4. KG is an equal scorer to Dirk.

5. Dirk had significantly more help than KG.


These are the 5 points I've disputed. Nothing I'm arguing is about who's better. I'm not attacking people who say KG is better. I'm confronting laughably inaccurate claims that are easily disputed by anybody that knows **** about basketball and has been watching since the mid-late 90's.

SPURSFAN1
09-08-2013, 05:10 PM
Topdog stop picking sides and use some objectivity. I'm going to post some of the bogus claims I've disputed and tell me if I'm being unfair.

1. Jason Terry was just as good as Sam Cassell during the mid 00's.

2. Pierce was "done" after 2007-2008, despite the 20/5/4 averages in the 5 seasons since.

3. Jason Terry was as much help as a 2nd option as Celtics Pierce or Allen.

4. KG is an equal scorer to Dirk.

5. Dirk had significantly more help than KG.


These are the 5 points I've disputed. Nothing I'm arguing is about who's better. I'm not attacking people who say KG is better. I'm confronting laughably inaccurate claims that are easily disputed by anybody that knows **** about basketball and has been watching since the mid-late 90's.

He's going to keep ignoring you because in his world jason terry was as good as ray allen or PP.

hugepatsfan
09-08-2013, 05:15 PM
Dirk absolutely did have more help than KG. KG had 1 MIN year with talent that is comparable to what Dirk had. Once KG got to BOS he had that talent but he was only in his prime for 1 year of it - after he blew his knee out in that second year he was no longer an elite player anymore so it's unfair to talk about him the same way as when he was. Like I said earlier, KG had an 8 year prime from 99-00 to 07-08. Dirk had a 10 year prime from 00-01 to 10-11.

That's only 2 years of his prime he had good teammates. For those 2 years yes it was better than what Dirk ever had. And KG won one title and fell to the all time great duo of Shaq-Kobe the other so it's hard to say he didn't maximize it. Other than those 2 years the players KG played with in his prime were laughable compared to what Dirk had. What KG had at the end of his BOS career is irrelevant to the discussion because he wasn't a top notch player after the knee injury you could expect to carry a team. Unfair to talk about him on those terms.

Clippersfan86
09-08-2013, 05:31 PM
Pats already disproved that. Dirk had more help early in their respective careers and less further into their careers. In the end it balances out. I went over every single year and if you look at the rosters on basketball reference you'll quickly see it's pretty balanced.

topdog
09-08-2013, 06:02 PM
Topdog stop picking sides and use some objectivity. I'm going to post some of the bogus claims I've disputed and tell me if I'm being unfair.

1. Jason Terry was just as good as Sam Cassell during the mid 00's.

2. Pierce was "done" after 2007-2008, despite the 20/5/4 averages in the 5 seasons since.

3. Jason Terry was as much help as a 2nd option as Celtics Pierce or Allen.

4. KG is an equal scorer to Dirk.

5. Dirk had significantly more help than KG.


These are the 5 points I've disputed. Nothing I'm arguing is about who's better. I'm not attacking people who say KG is better. I'm confronting laughably inaccurate claims that are easily disputed by anybody that knows **** about basketball and has been watching since the mid-late 90's.

Spursfan1 is killing what was an actual mostly respectful debate.

Number 1 is a bit mis-stated as I said "same tier" or "similar player" or something along those lines. Let's not exaggerate.

Numbers 2-4 I wouldn't argue i.e. those things aren't true as you state.

Number 5 is a bit fuzzy as far as what people mean by "significant" but Dirk has had better teammates, coaches and front office than KG for most of their careers with their original franchise. One could argue part of this is KG's fault for demanding such a high salary though.

Finally, 13 seasons of all-defensive accolades seem to be pretty much dismissed in your argument. I cannot seriously, objectively see one finals MVP trumping 13 all defensive teams when they both have an NBA title.

Jamiecballer
09-08-2013, 06:54 PM
If you appreciate the importance of both sides of the game there is no way you can put a guy who is elite on one end only over a guy who is elite on both.

hugepatsfan
09-08-2013, 07:04 PM
PRIME KG had good teammates for 1 year in MIN and 1 year in BOS. After that knee injury he suffered in BOS he was never an elite player anymore. Yes he had a championship supporting cast, but he himself was no longer a championship centerpiece player w/ his reduced knees.

Like I said before, Dirk was a championship centerpiece caliber player from 00-01 to 10-11. KG was one from 99-00 to 07-08. Dirk had a great team around him every single one of those seasons. KG had the best squad either of them had in 07-08 (led them to a title) and another great squad in 03-04 (lost in WCF to Shaq/Kobe). Other than those 2 years he didn't have even close to championship talent around him. It isn't even comparable the talent they played with in their primes. KG having a good team in his declining years doesn't make up for that because he was no longer capable of leading his team to a title.

Clippersfan86
09-08-2013, 07:34 PM
Dirk wasn't in his individual prime during 2011 either so not sure what the "prime" thing means. Bottom line is when both won at the highest levels, KG had more help by far. Early career KG didn't and I already agreed with that.

Topdog glad we agree on at least some things. I agree Dirk had more support from his franchise but in terms of player talent I felt it's similar. Neither had loaded squads besides the 08 and 11 championship teams of each player. The next closest to loaded was the Celtics who had 2 other great runs, one making finals and losing, one coming 1 win,from the finals.

SPURSFAN1
09-08-2013, 07:43 PM
If KG was so dominant in his PRIME, why did he miss the playoffs so many years? Prime David Robinson or Prime Tim Duncan makes you're team go to a 50 win team and play playoff basketball. Prime dirk carried a lot of scrubs throughout his career. If Prime Dirk had last years team, he wouldn't have been injured and he would have carried that sack of crap team to the playoffs as 2nd or 3rd seed. Hell old dirk almost did it if he wasn't out for a huge portion of the year. I wouldn't be so inclined to see KG do that now. or in fact Prime KG.

jam
09-08-2013, 08:00 PM
WRONG. Duncan PLUS Robinson guarantees you 50+ wins. Duncan + Parker + Ginobili guarantees you 50+ wins. NOT Duncan OR Robinson.

Duncan played alongside DRob for his first SIX seasons. In his sixth season, Duncan played with DRob, Ginobili AND Parker. That's right, Duncan was on a team with FOUR HOFers, including himself.

In other words, Duncan has always had AT LEAST one HOFer and up to THREE HOF teammates at any given time.

Go back to smoking crack alongside Lamar Odom and stop posting drivel like this.


If KG was so dominant in his PRIME, why did he miss the playoffs so many years? Prime David Robinson or Prime Tim Duncan makes you're team go to a 50 win team and play playoff basketball. Prime dirk carried a lot of scrubs throughout his career. If Prime Dirk had last years team, he wouldn't have been injured and he would have carried that sack of crap team to the playoffs as 2nd or 3rd seed. Hell old dirk almost did it if he wasn't out for a huge portion of the year. I wouldn't be so inclined to see KG do that now. or in fact Prime KG.

jam
09-08-2013, 08:07 PM
And no, DRob didn't exactly land on a gutted roster his rookie year either. That team was absolutely loaded with talent: Terry Cummings, Willie Anderson, Rod Strickland, Mo Cheeks, Sean Elliott, Vernon Maxwell, and Georgetown boys David Wingate and Reggie Williams.

That team was absolutely loaded, both in their starting five and bench. As a matter of fact, DRob's teams were so loaded, it came as a major disappointment that he didn't win a ring until TD arrived.

SPURSFAN1
09-08-2013, 08:10 PM
WRONG. Duncan PLUS Robinson guarantees you 50+ wins. Duncan + Parker + Ginobili guarantees you 50+ wins. NOT Duncan OR Robinson.

Duncan played alongside DRob for his first SIX seasons. In his sixth season, Duncan played with DRob, Ginobili AND Parker. That's right, Duncan was on a team with FOUR HOFers, including himself.

In other words, Duncan has always had AT LEAST one HOFer and up to THREE HOF teammates at any given time.

Go back to smoking crack alongside Lamar Odom and stop posting drivel like this.

explain david robinson now since you decided to completely ignore that one.
they had a 20 win season the year before. he carrried that team on his back. like literally. loaded you must be crazy. vinny fu..ing del negro? you serious?

jam
09-08-2013, 08:16 PM
Read the next post, ******.


explain david robinson now since you decided to completely ignore that one.
they had a 20 win season the year before. he carrried that team on his back. like literally. loaded you must be crazy. vinny fu..ing del negro? you serious?

SPURSFAN1
09-08-2013, 08:17 PM
And no, DRob didn't exactly land on a gutted roster his rookie year either. That team was absolutely loaded with talent: Terry Cummings, Willie Anderson, Rod Strickland, Mo Cheeks, Sean Elliott, Vernon Maxwell, and Georgetown boys David Wingate and Reggie Williams.

That team was absolutely loaded, both in their starting five and bench. As a matter of fact, DRob's teams were so loaded, it came as a major disappointment that he didn't win a ring until TD arrived.

lol smoking crack

Jamiecballer
09-08-2013, 08:18 PM
If KG was so dominant in his PRIME, why did he miss the playoffs so many years? Prime David Robinson or Prime Tim Duncan makes you're team go to a 50 win team and play playoff basketball. Prime dirk carried a lot of scrubs throughout his career. If Prime Dirk had last years team, he wouldn't have been injured and he would have carried that sack of crap team to the playoffs as 2nd or 3rd seed. Hell old dirk almost did it if he wasn't out for a huge portion of the year. I wouldn't be so inclined to see KG do that now. or in fact Prime KG.

no superstar in the history of the game (or at least as long as i can remember following basketball) ever played with such a poor collection of teammates. KG would have given his left nut to swap places with Dirk i'm sure.

FlashBolt
09-08-2013, 08:18 PM
If KG was so dominant in his PRIME, why did he miss the playoffs so many years? Prime David Robinson or Prime Tim Duncan makes you're team go to a 50 win team and play playoff basketball. Prime dirk carried a lot of scrubs throughout his career. If Prime Dirk had last years team, he wouldn't have been injured and he would have carried that sack of crap team to the playoffs as 2nd or 3rd seed. Hell old dirk almost did it if he wasn't out for a huge portion of the year. I wouldn't be so inclined to see KG do that now. or in fact Prime KG.

You should refrain from posting. Everyone automatically assumes you're a troll because your arguments are comparable to a comedy show. All your posts are based of hypotheticals. Dirk in his prime doesn't come close to KG in his prime. KG in his prime is arguably better than TD. And I'm tired of reading your cretin-like posts. Dirk relies on shooting. He doesn't bang left and right like KG does daily. The workload KG has gone through has been much more impactful on the court than Dirk. You said we shouldn't mention Tim but yet you keep bringing him up.. Think about what you post next time and try to make some sense out of it.

kdspurman
09-08-2013, 08:27 PM
You should refrain from posting. Everyone automatically assumes you're a troll because your arguments are comparable to a comedy show. All your posts are based of hypotheticals. Dirk in his prime doesn't come close to KG in his prime. KG in his prime is arguably better than TD. And I'm tired of reading your cretin-like posts. Dirk relies on shooting. He doesn't bang left and right like KG does daily. The workload KG has gone through has been much more impactful on the court than Dirk. You said we shouldn't mention Tim but yet you keep bringing him up.. Think about what you post next time and try to make some sense out of it.

Not to completely derail the thread, but I just don't think that's true & I've seen a lot of KG/Duncan debates with arguments for KG, but none really proving what you're saying.

On the original topic, it's KG pretty easily for me.

SPURSFAN1
09-08-2013, 08:28 PM
To me TD Prime>Lebron Prime. You're saying KG Prime>Tim Duncan Prime? If lebron can carry any garbage team in his prime to the playoffs as top 3 seeds, why didn't KG Prime carry his team as an 8th seed? Maybe he's just not in that other league ya'll keep talking about.

FlashBolt
09-08-2013, 08:30 PM
WRONG. Duncan PLUS Robinson guarantees you 50+ wins. Duncan + Parker + Ginobili guarantees you 50+ wins. NOT Duncan OR Robinson.

Duncan played alongside DRob for his first SIX seasons. In his sixth season, Duncan played with DRob, Ginobili AND Parker. That's right, Duncan was on a team with FOUR HOFers, including himself.

In other words, Duncan has always had AT LEAST one HOFer and up to THREE HOF teammates at any given time.

Go back to smoking crack alongside Lamar Odom and stop posting drivel like this.

explain david robinson now since you decided to completely ignore that one.
they had a 20 win season the year before. he carrried that team on his back. like literally. loaded you must be crazy. vinny fu..ing del negro? you serious?

Shows how much you know.. Terry Cummings was also traded to that team that year. Did you really just start watching basketball? Because I don't see much of anything from your posts.

You did not just go there.. TD in his prime is not better than LJ. KG in his prime was putting 24-14-5. The fact you would even say TD over LJ in their prime is laughable. TD surpasses James solely on rings. Better yet, why do you keep bringing other players into this- most notably TD? Because you can't speak as highly about Dirk?

Jamiecballer
09-08-2013, 08:33 PM
To me TD Prime>Lebron Prime. You're saying KG Prime>Tim Duncan Prime? If lebron can carry any garbage team in his prime to the playoffs as top 3 seeds, why didn't KG Prime carry his team as an 8th seed? Maybe he's just not in that other league ya'll keep talking about.

he trusted his teammates wayyyy too much.

SPURSFAN1
09-08-2013, 08:34 PM
i admit he had a decent team, but as time passed the level of talent digressed. the guy said robinson's teams where loaded, which they weren't. a newly assembled roster really don't gel like that unless you're star player is in another stratosphere.

bagwell368
09-10-2013, 11:38 AM
Bagwell keep backpeddling.

WTF are you talking about? I beat the crap out of your WS arguments, along with all the other rubbish you've laid out, and pointed out how little emphasis you put on defense in your arguments. Try proving quotes to back up such claims.


You used the exact word "done" then denied saying it.

Might help to offer up the quotes, I'm not parsing the thread to ID your claims Jack.


Saying that Terry had 5 seasons better than Pierce even of last year takes away the little credibility you may have had.

It's a straight fact. You picked out PP's final year in Boston. I could literally have not said that about any other PP season since KG showed up in Boston. Did you forget I watched PP a lot more than you, and that last year in particular in the playoffs he wasn't very good. Next time say PP on average since 2007-2008 and you'll be covered. Don't blame me if you pick a comparison that blows up your logic - that's on you - Jack.


Besides you implied 5 years ago Pierce and Allen, not just last year.

Make with the quotes. I don't believe you have a very good chance at parsing meaning from what I write given your monumental biases.


Terry has NEVER had the all around impact of Pierce. Terry is a potent, streaky scorer and not much else.

Thanks for the primer. I know who the player is. You are the one that picked Pierce's last year - live with it - or reformulate your arguments. BTW, my original comparison was the first 12 years of each player. In those first 12 years, KG had a distinctly worse cast. Even putting all of the career out there, Dirk's teams have had 5 more wins on average and a higher seeding then KG's teams.


You're the worst kind of fan IMO. The kind who will put down a great player just to elevate another.

I was never a big PP fan, go ahead and read everything I've ever written about him here or on the Celts Forum or historical Forums. You YOU picked PP's last year as a baseline comparison. He was awful. I saw it. All six of the playoff games and at least over 50% of 60 of the other games. Blame yourself for a poor choice for a comparison.


Sound more like a KG fan than a team fan to me. Pierce is a greater Celtic than KG ever was and you don't seem to understand or appreciate this.

I've been a Celts fan since 1965. PP is only a greater Celt by amount of years he was on the team. KG is why the Celts won a title in '08 - culture change, leadership, all of it, a non Celtic fan telling me what was during these years? Laughable. KG's 2007-2008 was a better year than any PP year. As for SF's Bird and Havlicek both easily top PP historically. You condescend to me about the Celts - barking up the wrong tree buddy.


Pierce is quite possibly the most underrated and disrespected star of this era.

Possibly. He's somewhere around the 32-40th best player of all time. KG is around 12-14th and Dirk is someplace around 16-20th. The truth will out young man.

bagwell368
09-10-2013, 11:43 AM
here is why i will take Garnett and IMO it's not even close.

The first thing I ask myself is, is Nowitzki's advantage in performance in the post-season (which is small but undeniable, statistically) enough to off-set the definite skill and total game that Garnett has on Nowitzki over a 1,323 game career?

not even close. then i ask myself, what more could a guy whose primary ability is not scoring do to elevate those TWolves teams he played for?

Garnett's problem, if you can call it that, is that he cares way more about making the right basketball play than trying to do it all himself. Is that a bad trait to have when your best skill isn't scoring the basketball? In playoff basketball Dirk has every right to say, i'm the best scorer give me the ball and get out of my way. What is Garnett going to do, tell guys to get out of my way I'm going to defend everyone?

A lot of those playoff teams in Minnesota were borderline expansion teams and Garnett got burned for playing the same way in the post-season that he played for 48 mins of every regular season game - make the right basketball play, trust your teammates. Some people might penalize him for that but not me. Give me the guy who has the discipline to make the right play every time and I will take my chances.

he was truly a once in a lifetime talent, Dirk as great as he is, is not.

A fine post, and full of undeniable truth.

FlashBolt
09-10-2013, 05:58 PM
WTF are you talking about? I beat the crap out of your WS arguments, along with all the other rubbish you've laid out, and pointed out how little emphasis you put on defense in your arguments. Try proving quotes to back up such claims.



Might help to offer up the quotes, I'm not parsing the thread to ID your claims Jack.



It's a straight fact. You picked out PP's final year in Boston. I could literally have not said that about any other PP season since KG showed up in Boston. Did you forget I watched PP a lot more than you, and that last year in particular in the playoffs he wasn't very good. Next time say PP on average since 2007-2008 and you'll be covered. Don't blame me if you pick a comparison that blows up your logic - that's on you - Jack.



Make with the quotes. I don't believe you have a very good chance at parsing meaning from what I write given your monumental biases.



Thanks for the primer. I know who the player is. You are the one that picked Pierce's last year - live with it - or reformulate your arguments. BTW, my original comparison was the first 12 years of each player. In those first 12 years, KG had a distinctly worse cast. Even putting all of the career out there, Dirk's teams have had 5 more wins on average and a higher seeding then KG's teams.



I was never a big PP fan, go ahead and read everything I've ever written about him here or on the Celts Forum or historical Forums. You YOU picked PP's last year as a baseline comparison. He was awful. I saw it. All six of the playoff games and at least over 50% of 60 of the other games. Blame yourself for a poor choice for a comparison.



I've been a Celts fan since 1965. PP is only a greater Celt by amount of years he was on the team. KG is why the Celts won a title in '08 - culture change, leadership, all of it, a non Celtic fan telling me what was during these years? Laughable. KG's 2007-2008 was a better year than any PP year. As for SF's Bird and Havlicek both easily top PP historically. You condescend to me about the Celts - barking up the wrong tree buddy.



Possibly. He's somewhere around the 32-40th best player of all time. KG is around 12-14th and Dirk is someplace around 16-20th. The truth will out young man.

KG 12-14th GOAT? KG is better than Dirk but I think it's silly to say KG is the 12-14th greatest player of all time. I don't think he's even ahead of Wade.

Clippersfan86
09-10-2013, 06:14 PM
Bagwell you didn't beat the crap out of anything, you just ranted like the biggest homer on PSD. To make a point you used pretty bogus claims like Terry being better than Pierce and destroyed your own weak argument. The worst part was you implying I'm the homer or biased one while making homer statements borderlining on insanity. Why would I lie about what you said in here when you can easily verify it? I don't feel like reading your fantasy novel again and reading your posts anymore than I have to, so no thanks, I won't go quote it again. Besides mostly everything I posted was my OPINION on why I prefer Dirk. I didn't claim it was fact so nothing really to say I was wrong about. Unlike you I didn't present my case as factual and unworthy pf debate.

tredigs
09-10-2013, 09:13 PM
I also take Barkley over all of them but Duncan. And they're not that far, it's just that Duncan is too smart defensively to touch.

bagwell368
09-10-2013, 09:35 PM
KG 12-14th GOAT? KG is better than Dirk but I think it's silly to say KG is the 12-14th greatest player of all time. I don't think he's even ahead of Wade.

Silly? In what way? Specifiy.

Wade? Great player. Short career relative to KG and he appears to be declining. He ranks very high among SG's, but among all players regardless of position he's nowhere near KG.

Bostonjorge
09-10-2013, 09:37 PM
I take KG over dirk, Duncan, and Barkley. Duncan's rings is what is hard to argue over but KG never had a team like Duncan had in there primes. KG got a great team his last or final prime year in his career and won a title with a new team he never played with. KG in Minnesota was amazing and always made the playoffs with nothing on his team. The ranking's will have Duncan over KG but not dirk.