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View Full Version : DO you think basketball can eventually get to other sports point players wise?



Hellcrooner
09-06-2013, 01:21 AM
The fact is right now if you pick the top 300 players in the world 200 of them are going to be american and 250 of them will be playing in the nba , the other 50 being players still in ncaa and some players that have not yet left europe.


with this numbers nba is the clear talent collector and best league on the world.
And in olympics and World cup the odds for the championship are 90% Usa Team and 10%surprise team x filled with nba talent.


But if you take other sports , for example tennis, it is practiced by TONS of players everywhere, they grow up on it and the champions of the grand slam tourneys can be from wherever, switzerland, Spain, Serbia,scotland, Australia or whatever.

Thats the same situation for F1, Motorcycles, table tennis, swimming, athletics etc etc etc.

As for team sports, handball, volleyball, skate hockey, ice hokckey, whatever there are a COUPLE of teams with same odds to be champions.



Now lets focus into soccer, :

Not only do the top 300 players be from like 20 to 30 different countrys, but given the AMUSING amount of kids that play the sport, it is IMPOSSIBLE to gahter all the best players in ONE LEAGUE.
Yes there are leagues that are more powerfull in spain, england, germany or italy, but between all of them they probably only gather like 40% of the best talent.

The best teams make it to the Champions league, wich is inter-countrys, but yet since many players that dont play for a top team dont make it there you can still say that only the 25 to 30% of the best players play there.

Simply teres TOO many good players everywhere to make one superleague.
Then in the WC there are no less then 6-8 national teams thatn can realistically expect to win the trophy, and a second line of other 8 that given the right match ups and some luck could even get to win it.



Do you think Basketball can eventually get there?

when only 80 of the top 300 players is american and there are 20 countrys that have players in that list and it makes necesary to have a " champions league" with the champions from several leagus to know who is the true best team?.

BudGrant
09-06-2013, 02:08 AM
Probably not.

MickeyMgl
09-06-2013, 02:43 AM
The fact is right now if you pick the top 300 players in the world 200 of them are going to be american and 250 of them will be playing in the nba , the other 50 being players still in ncaa and some players that have not yet left europe.

with this numbers nba is the clear talent collector and best league on the world.
And in olympics and World cup the odds for the championship are 90% Usa Team and 10%surprise team x filled with nba talent.

You mean, with the numbers you just made up? Yes, the NBA is the best league in the world. As you say, they are the best talent collector. I'm just not so certain that American players dominate the top 300 as much as most Americans think they do.



Now lets focus into soccer, :

Not only do the top 300 players be from like 20 to 30 different countrys, but given the AMUSING amount of kids that play the sport, it is IMPOSSIBLE to gahter all the best players in ONE LEAGUE.
Yes there are leagues that are more powerfull in spain, england, germany or italy, but between all of them they probably only gather like 40% of the best talent.

The best teams make it to the Champions league, wich is inter-countrys, but yet since many players that dont play for a top team dont make it there you can still say that only the 25 to 30% of the best players play there.

Simply teres TOO many good players everywhere to make one superleague.
Then in the WC there are no less then 6-8 national teams thatn can realistically expect to win the trophy, and a second line of other 8 that given the right match ups and some luck could even get to win it.

True enough. Soccer is the one team sport that's more widely played than basketball.



Do you think Basketball can eventually get there?

when only 80 of the top 300 players is american and there are 20 countrys that have players in that list and it makes necesary to have a " champions league" with the champions from several leagus to know who is the true best team?.

Basketball is mostly there. It's the second most widely played sport in the world. What you're describing with regard to the best players is largely a factor of the tendency to underrate foreign players. It may be a racial thing. I don't know. It just happens to occur more often when the players are white.

Goose17
09-06-2013, 03:01 AM
It's getting there, slowly. But it's getting there.

I really hope this will happen. It would be cool to have a couple of "international" leagues on par.

Hellcrooner
09-06-2013, 03:03 AM
You mean, with the numbers you just made up? Ye, the NBA is the best league in the world. As you say, they are the best talent collector. I'm just not so certain that American players dominate the top 300 as much as most Americans think they do.



True enough. Soccer is the one team sport that's more widely played than basketball.



Basketball is mostly there. It's the second most widely played sport in the world. What you're describing with regard to the best players is largely a factor of the tendency to underrate foreign players. It may be a racial thing. I don't know. It just happens to occur more often when the players are white.


Dont turn it into a racial thing.

And i made up those numbers to NOT DERAIL the thread :D of course the number of nba-talent players that are abroad+ ncaa may be bigger tan the one i gave.
But you will concurr that in the top 50 there are only like 5 at worst 10 at best non americans....

PurpleLynch
09-06-2013, 08:43 AM
It would be very interesting. But the Nba will remain the Nba imo( and I love it anyway).

Off-topic: The Nba must start to get new and better refs,right now they're ****in ridicoulous on some calls(too much travelling for example).It's very sad(Joey Crawford I'm lookin' at you)

Chronz
09-06-2013, 10:08 AM
God I hope not, I want my NBA basketball to be filled with the worlds best players. Why would I want to watch an inferior product?

Hellcrooner
09-06-2013, 10:23 AM
God I hope not, I want my NBA basketball to be filled with the worlds best players. Why would I want to watch an inferior product?

Think it other way.

Why have it all in one product instead of having 4 equally good products ( the top leagues, like Premier, Calcio, Liga, Bundesliga in soccer) and 1 mega good product ( international club competition).

C_Mund
09-06-2013, 10:35 AM
Think it other way.

Why have it all in one product instead of having 4 equally good products ( the top leagues, like Premier, Calcio, Liga, Bundesliga in soccer) and 1 mega good product ( international club competition).

I can definitely see where you're going with it, but as a North American it's awesome that we have a full 8 months every year of watching the best basketball close to home. If there were as much basketball talent in developing countries as there is soccer I could see it, but there's such a huge gap -athletically speaking- from the first tier basketball to the second. It's not always talent, a lot of it is size, speed and agility.

....and it's partially a racial thing but mostly a cultural thing. it's been said since the early 1900's that black people would take over the sport and they more or less have. But there's black people everywhere, not just in the states....and to say that European/White players are under-rated makes no sense. There's a reason that most of the players in the NBA are black, it's a fact and not an opinion. As an outsider, it seems to me that most young black athletes in the States gravitate towards Bball and Football, maybe I'm wrong but that's how I see it.

aTinyPanda
09-06-2013, 10:50 AM
I think one problem that we could potentially run in to with this scenario. in reference to what Chronz said about an inferior product, is other leagues around the world gaining more and more prestige and then beginning to offer absolutely insane contracts to would-be NBA players. You saw how many were willing to jump overseas for a paycheck during the lockout.. how many more would be willing to go and how many more teams would be willing to let their guys go if things like higher salaries/higher prestige leagues existed and/or transfer fees starting coming into play? The reason this doesn't happen now is because of the prestige and competition level in the NBA. If the NBA isn't the primary talent collector and primary end game for all young basketball players around the world, the talent level inevitably decreases and thus we have an inferior product. Sure the game is more spread out around the world, and thus might result in even more talent being generated than would have been otherwise.. but it would have some negative effects on the NBA as well.

Becks2307
09-06-2013, 10:54 AM
Bad for the NBA but great for the sport. Basketball>NBA

flea
09-06-2013, 11:11 AM
The NBA is an inferior form of basketball. If globalization kills how Stern has been doing things then I'm all for it.

mike_noodles
09-06-2013, 11:39 AM
Stop trying to make basketball like soccer. I hate that the best talent is so wide spread. I prefer it all in one league playing against each other. International players are getting there. Not sure about your numbers. I think there are 12 Canadians alone.

MrfadeawayJB
09-06-2013, 11:49 AM
I don't see this happening for a long time. All the best players in the world will strive for the NBA. Even Americans not good enough go overseas and are usually very good over there too

JasonJohnHorn
09-06-2013, 12:26 PM
This does seem to be the pattern that the league is headed toward. There are already some NBA-level guys who simply to not want to play in America and stay in Europe. As basketball grows in popularity, the demand for high-level talent will grow as well. We've already seen this with players like Josh Childress who are overpaid by European teams leave the NBA for the money. As basketball grows in popularity, we will see longer seasons and higher attendance in Europe and Asia and that will mean more revenue, which will mean higher pay checks. Once the mid-level talent starts to come over, the talent pool will increase making the European leagues more competitive, which will hopefully increase the popularity of the game further leading to a snowball effect.

I expect this to take at least 50 years though. And if the NBA is smart, it will simply make a sister league in Europe so that the best basketball players in the world are still playing against and with each other.

aTinyPanda
09-06-2013, 12:29 PM
Bad for the NBA but great for the sport. Basketball>NBA

I do agree with this. However the problem I see with soccer as far as certain league's spending habits, and being super top heavy would most likely occur with basketball as well. So it's a toss up as to whether or not it is actually better for basketball fans.

Hawkeye15
09-06-2013, 12:30 PM
I hope not. As Chronz pointed out, this would make the NBA inferior to what it is now. No thanks.

KnickaBocka.44
09-06-2013, 12:32 PM
Think it other way.

Why have it all in one product instead of having 4 equally good products ( the top leagues, like Premier, Calcio, Liga, Bundesliga in soccer) and 1 mega good product ( international club competition).

I'm a soccer fan in America and I don't get to watch top talent too often, so I feel your pain.

Goose17
09-06-2013, 01:16 PM
God I hope not, I want my NBA basketball to be filled with the worlds best players. Why would I want to watch an inferior product?

Couldn't disagree more. It benefits basketball fans across the world, what you're saying only benefits yanks.

And we're not talking about taking players out of the NBA, we're talking about developing the youth of other countries and their leagues.

The NBA would have the same amount of elite players it does now, and another league or two would also have a similar amount of elite players.

Think how great it would be to have a true world championship (I hate that the NBA refer to the NBA championship as a world championship, you've only played American teams, how can you be a world champion?).

It would be amazing to have the international league champion to play the NBA league champion for a world championship. Or even do the top 8 in both leagues every 3 years or something. There would be so much hype to play the teams that you rarely get to play. The bragging rights would be awesome.


I would love it. Screw the NBA. I love BASKETBALL. Not the NBA. There's a difference. I want the sport to thrive everywhere, not just in North America.

2-ONE-5
09-06-2013, 01:30 PM
It would be very interesting. But the Nba will remain the Nba imo( and I love it anyway).

Off-topic: The Nba must start to get new and better refs,right now they're ****in ridicoulous on some calls(too much travelling for example).It's very sad(Joey Crawford I'm lookin' at you)

too much traveling is ridiculous? lets jsut players take 5 steps without a dribble...

Becks2307
09-06-2013, 02:00 PM
I do agree with this. However the problem I see with soccer as far as certain league's spending habits, and being super top heavy would most likely occur with basketball as well. So it's a toss up as to whether or not it is actually better for basketball fans.

This happens because there is no salary cap/draft etc in these leagues.

Maybe if there is some way to implement this you'll have parity and an amazing Champions League.

You'll basically have 5 NBAs, believe me that would be sick.

PurpleLynch
09-06-2013, 02:06 PM
too much traveling is ridiculous? lets jsut players take 5 steps without a dribble...

What? These are basic bball rules,nothing else. And in the Nba,a lot of times,is not enforced decently.

aTinyPanda
09-06-2013, 02:07 PM
This happens because there is no salary cap/draft etc in these leagues.

Maybe if there is some way to implement this you'll have parity and an amazing Champions League.

You'll basically have 5 NBAs, believe me that would be sick.

I don't disagree with you... but that still hasn't happened with Soccer and they still just go ahead with the Champions league as if half or even 3/4 of the teams have any sort of chance. Would make it so much better if it were as you described. And this is coming from a serious, die hard fan of the the CL.

If the NBA could orchestrate a partnership or "sister league" system with 4 or 5 major potential professional basketball markets like Africa, Turkey, Spain, Eastern Europe, etc.. and ensure that they utilize similar salary cap and financial rules systems.. then I could see it growing over 50-75 years into something beautiful.

bholly
09-06-2013, 02:10 PM
The root of the issue isn't players, it's fans. People in the rest of the world don't care about basketball as much. They aren't willing to pay as much to watch it. Therefore revenues are orders of magnitude smaller, and teams/leagues can't afford players of NBA calibre. As long as the revenue discrepancy is as big as it is, the best players will play in the NBA where the money is.
And of course that feeds the player nationality discrepancy. Because there's a great league in America and there's great money to play in it, American kids are much more likely to grow up watching it and loving it and thinking seriously about a future in it. In other countries without the same local infrastructure they focus more on their national sports.

As long as basketball is significantly more popular in the US than elsewhere, the NBA will remain by far the world's dominant league, and the US will tend to produce most of the top players.
Much in the same way that in the US they don't care about soccer, so the money is less and the quality of domestic competitions is less and they don't produce nearly their share of top players.
Given that, as long as the of the population of the soccer loving world is so much greater than the population of the USA, you'd have to expect the number of soccer players at any given level to be much greater than the number of basketball players also.

The discrepancy isn't some shortcoming in basketball, it's a reflection of popularity and population and money. And if anything, I'd say soccer seems to be spreading into the US more rapidly than basketball is spreading elsewhere, so if I had to guess one way or the other I'd guess the discrepancy will increase rather than decrease.

king4day
09-06-2013, 04:08 PM
Great topic.
There are many people out there who just aren't into sports where, if they were, they could be superstars. We miss out on tons of quality players because of that.

If the interest grows, I think this for sure can happen.

Goose17
09-06-2013, 05:10 PM
The root of the issue isn't players, it's fans. People in the rest of the world don't care about basketball as much.


Oh really?

The National Sport of Lithuania is basketball, same for Latvia.

The Philippines go crazy for it.

Basketball is the second most attended sport in Spain after soccer/football.


Out of all the Major American sports, the only thing that comes close to being as popular worldwide is Hockey.

Chronz
09-06-2013, 05:20 PM
Think it other way.

Why have it all in one product instead of having 4 equally good products ( the top leagues, like Premier, Calcio, Liga, Bundesliga in soccer) and 1 mega good product ( international club competition).

What would be the point? I dont follow soccer but everytime my cousins try to explain the league system, it just comes off stupid to me. I also think the talent pool is much greater in Soccer but wtf do I know. Maybe in a few years the other leagues will catch up to the NBA without having to weaken the it.


What I would love to do is eliminate 4-6 teams from the NBA. That would allow some NBA talent to find homes elsewhere. But again, why would I want 4 equally good products when I can simply tune into the best league and find all the best teams and players facing against each other there?

aTinyPanda
09-06-2013, 05:28 PM
What would be the point? I dont follow soccer but everytime my cousins try to explain the league system, it just comes off stupid to me. I also think the talent pool is much greater in Soccer but wtf do I know. Maybe in a few years the other leagues will catch up to the NBA without having to weaken the it.

What I would love to do is eliminate 4-6 teams from the NBA. That would allow some NBA talent to find homes elsewhere. But again, why would I want 4 equally good products when I can simply tune into the best league and find all the best teams and players facing against each other there?

I think you're overlooking the concept that with a growing interest globally, the talent pool would inevitably grow with it.. thus resulting in more kids growing up wanting to play basketball and more potential superstars being discovered that would have never picked up a basketball otherwise.

And in regards to cutting 4-6 teams from the NBA.. let me guess: You're a fan of a large market team that spends lots of money and is a zero-risk team when it comes to getting cut from the league, if it were to happen... right?

Chronz
09-06-2013, 05:30 PM
Couldn't disagree more. It benefits basketball fans across the world, what you're saying only benefits yanks.
Not my problem bro, its not my fault their countries may not showcase NBA games.


And we're not talking about taking players out of the NBA, we're talking about developing the youth of other countries and their leagues.

The NBA would have the same amount of elite players it does now, and another league or two would also have a similar amount of elite players.
But its still dilution when your league lacks the top players in the world.
If you're allowing some of the greatest basketball players to play in a league thats not the NBA, you are in fact weakening its talent pool


Think how great it would be to have a true world championship (I hate that the NBA refer to the NBA championship as a world championship, you've only played American teams, how can you be a world champion?).
American teams are comprised of the best basketball players in the WORLD, thats what makes them world champions. If you have a problem with the term itself then why not just look at the FIBA/Olympic games as the measure for a "World Champion"?


It would be amazing to have the international league champion to play the NBA league champion for a world championship. Or even do the top 8 in both leagues every 3 years or something. There would be so much hype to play the teams that you rarely get to play. The bragging rights would be awesome.
Sounds awfully boring... what am I to watch in the interim? Yes the hype would be amazing, but that would be because we go from watching the very best on the regular, to watching them only on the rare occasions that the opposing leagues get to play each other. It would diminish the NBA Finals if the Worlds talent were spread out so thin. As it is today, we dont have enough players to fill 30 teams IMO.


Why would I prioritize a rare even over watching the best players compete against each other on much more regular basis?




I would love it. Screw the NBA. I love BASKETBALL. Not the NBA. There's a difference. I want the sport to thrive everywhere, not just in North America.
I dont see it that way, to me, you're less of a fan of basketball if you would rather not watch the best compete on a regular basis.

Chronz
09-06-2013, 05:36 PM
I think you're overlooking the concept that with a growing interest globally, the talent pool would inevitably grow with it.. thus resulting in more kids growing up wanting to play basketball and more potential superstars being discovered that would have never picked up a basketball otherwise.
Basketball seems to be growing just fine to me.

You do make a good point tho, its similar to the time I defended Donavon for sticking in the MLS. People mocked him for not testing himself against the very best, but at the same time, hes strengthening the hometown product and hopefully the interest in Soccer will eventually rise here in some part due to him. But thats an idealistic stance and it revolves around nationality more than love of the game.



And in regards to cutting 4-6 teams from the NBA.. let me guess: You're a fan of a large market team that spends lots of money and is a zero-risk team when it comes to getting cut from the league, if it were to happen... right?
Im a fan of the NBA before Im a fan of any singular team, the reasons should be clear from what I've said already. I want to see a product that prioritizes strength at the top, this wouldn't change regardless of where I live or who I follow.

Sly Guy
09-06-2013, 06:03 PM
The NBA is an inferior form of basketball. If globalization kills how Stern has been doing things then I'm all for it.

I agree. I prefer the way the game is played in the NCAA and on the international level. Basketball has the potential to be the same kind of sport as soccer, but the NBA is actually a barrier to this happening. Other international leagues are needed, ones with the purchasing power to draw stars [in their primes] away from the NBA. Then you'll see a growth of the numbers of kids playing the sport all over the world, and better levels of competition everywhere.

Chronz
09-06-2013, 06:11 PM
I agree. I prefer the way the game is played in the NCAA and on the international level. Basketball has the potential to be the same kind of sport as soccer, but the NBA is actually a barrier to this happening. Other international leagues are needed, ones with the purchasing power to draw stars [in their primes] away from the NBA. Then you'll see a growth of the numbers of kids playing the sport all over the world, and better levels of competition everywhere.
Are you serious? You actually like the rules in place?


All I can say is, THANK SOMEONE that the Olympic committee is trying to make the International game more like the NBA. With longer 3pt shots and possibly getting rid of that ****ing trapezoid.

HoodedSB
09-07-2013, 03:53 PM
The offensive interference/goaltending/whatever it's called rules could be amended in the international game as well...

aTinyPanda
09-08-2013, 01:45 AM
Anyone in this thread saying that the NBA is a poor form of basketball or an example of "holding basketball back" from leagues with styles like Eurobasket and College basketball is so misinformed. The rules and regulations adapt to the talent level and abilities of the league. I don't understand what your guys' issues with the NBA are? People claim there's no defense in the NBA.. but that statement has and always will be a joke. Sure the rules have changed to favor offensive players.. but the defense in the league is still elite. What other complaints could you possibly have besides what Chronz has mentioned, which is that there are too many bottom feeders?

FlashBolt
09-08-2013, 03:02 AM
I just want to say, you can't change defense. How can the level of defense change when players are always there with the mindset of blocking your shot or stealing that ball. The defense level hasn't dropped - it's the rules that make defense much more difficult than simply handchecking someone.

John Walls Era
09-08-2013, 04:47 AM
It would be terrible for the NBA. Why would they want to share their market? NBA is the best of the best. I think that's basically imprinted into player's minds. I don't think multiple leagues would work (like in Soccer for example).

FlashBolt
09-08-2013, 04:54 AM
No, please. I want to see the best go at it 24/7 for 82 games. I doubt players would even think of doing this as NBA is the best of the best in terms of media, contracts, and marketing. No thanks, i'll stick to watching quality over quantity.

Goose17
09-08-2013, 04:57 AM
Chronz you're not diluting the product. It would have the same number of elite players it does right now. It would be the exact same as it is right now, therefore not diluted, the same.

But there would also be a lot of foreign youth talent on he same level but in a different league. It breeds competitiveness on a global level, only a good thing.

The NBA wouldn't change it would be the exact same as it is now, but there would be something just like it in another country.

Your opinion is that of a greedy American. Nothing more.

If you truly don't want to see the rest of the world prosper in this sport, you can never refer to yourself as a basketball fan.

FlashBolt
09-08-2013, 05:05 AM
Chronz you're not diluting the product. It would have the same number of elite players it does right now. It would be the exact same as it is right now, therefore not diluted, the same.

But there would also be a lot of foreign youth talent on he same level but in a different league. It breeds competitiveness on a global level, only a good thing.

The NBA wouldn't change it would be the exact same as it is now, but there would be something just like it in another country.

Your opinion is that of a greedy American. Nothing more.

If you truly don't want to see the rest of the world prosper in this sport, you can never refer to yourself as a basketball fan.

That is more of a contradiction. It would be diluted because there would be less elite players in the NBA and that would mean the quality of basketball drops. The absolute best play in the NBA. The game itself limits the amount of players and only the absolute best are in it. It may be an opinion but it's a fact that the quality of the product will depreciate. Why don't international players just get better so they can go up against the NBA players? You want to force NBA players to enter another league and dominate lesser players? I'm not understanding your logic. Maybe international teams should pay NBA players the elite bucks to play for their squad, or just get better and dethrone the NBA.

aTinyPanda
09-08-2013, 05:22 AM
Chronz you're not diluting the product. It would have the same number of elite players it does right now. It would be the exact same as it is right now, therefore not diluted, the same.

But there would also be a lot of foreign youth talent on he same level but in a different league. It breeds competitiveness on a global level, only a good thing.

The NBA wouldn't change it would be the exact same as it is now, but there would be something just like it in another country.

Your opinion is that of a greedy American. Nothing more.

If you truly don't want to see the rest of the world prosper in this sport, you can never refer to yourself as a basketball fan.

Although I agree it is kind of greedy to try to keep the thing an America-centric league and in the very long term would help basketball globally... Theres no reason to attack Chronz or his opinion. You sound like an idiot when you start throwing around sweeping generalizations based on a person's nationality.

All that aside, what you said about talent dilution is absolutely not true. If leagues began to grow in popularity and financial prowess around the globe... Some of what is now the middle and lower tier of nba players (and possibly even some fringe stars after a while) would leave to those leagues to become top tier players both in team role and pay scale. This would effectively lower the nba talent pool while marginally raising the pedigree of those various other leagues. Pretty simply described with two words: talent dilution

Goose17
09-08-2013, 09:03 AM
It would be diluted because there would be less elite players in the NBA and that would mean the quality of basketball drops.

No. There wouldn't. We're NOT talking about sharing the players, we're talking about growing the youth of other countries so they are on the same level.

The NBA would have the EXACT same players it has now, the exact same talent pool. And then a foreign league, through various youth programmes, will have developed a league just as good.


The NBA isn't losing anything in this hypothetical.


The problem right now is that other countries basketball programmes don't get the same funding as their American counterparts. If the youth were developed on the same level as America, you wouldn't have less talent in the NBA, just more talent in other leagues.




Although I agree it is kind of greedy to try to keep the thing an America-centric league and in the very long term would help basketball globally... Theres no reason to attack Chronz or his opinion. You sound like an idiot when you start throwing around sweeping generalizations based on a person's nationality.

It's only a generalization if it's untrue. Which it isn't. That's exactly what he was acting like, a stereotypical American.

Would he still want all of the top talent in one league if that league was in Spain, Lithuania, France, England, Germany etc? I don't think so.




Look at the way football works (that's soccer for you yanks) with UEFA, the top teams from the European leagues playing each other in Europe to be crowned a "true champion". Think about how good the Olympics would be for basketball if 3 or 4 other countries had the same sort of funding and developed the same talent as America.

It doesn't dilute the sport at all, it makes it more competitive and more entertaining for the WORLD. Most of you are too focused on the NBA and how it would effect America, think of the bigger picture here.

FlashBolt
09-08-2013, 12:12 PM
It would be diluted because there would be less elite players in the NBA and that would mean the quality of basketball drops.

No. There wouldn't. We're NOT talking about sharing the players, we're talking about growing the youth of other countries so they are on the same level.

The NBA would have the EXACT same players it has now, the exact same talent pool. And then a foreign league, through various youth programmes, will have developed a league just as good.


The NBA isn't losing anything in this hypothetical.


The problem right now is that other countries basketball programmes don't get the same funding as their American counterparts. If the youth were developed on the same level as America, you wouldn't have less talent in the NBA, just more talent in other leagues.




Although I agree it is kind of greedy to try to keep the thing an America-centric league and in the very long term would help basketball globally... Theres no reason to attack Chronz or his opinion. You sound like an idiot when you start throwing around sweeping generalizations based on a person's nationality.

It's only a generalization if it's untrue. Which it isn't. That's exactly what he was acting like, a stereotypical American.

Would he still want all of the top talent in one league if that league was in Spain, Lithuania, France, England, Germany etc? I don't think so.




Look at the way football works (that's soccer for you yanks) with UEFA, the top teams from the European leagues playing each other in Europe to be crowned a "true champion". Think about how good the Olympics would be for basketball if 3 or 4 other countries had the same sort of funding and developed the same talent as America.

It doesn't dilute the sport at all, it makes it more competitive and more entertaining for the WORLD. Most of you are too focused on the NBA and how it would effect America, think of the bigger picture here.

What you are saying makes no sense. How do you expect the other leagues to gain momentum when the absolute best around the world come to the nba? It would be diluted because those elite players would be playing elsewhere. It's quite a contradiction on your part. You state that those leagues can catch up to the nba but you do realize that those players go straight to the nba if they could, yes? Look at Ricky Rubio. By your argument, he should stay in europe and not come tot the nba. How is this not diluting the nba? You're living in a dream. This would be bad for America as well since they can't tax all these players. It could work but it doesn't make sense when the nba is already full of talent. No nerd to go elsewhere...

bholly
09-08-2013, 01:35 PM
Oh really?

The National Sport of Lithuania is basketball, same for Latvia.

The Philippines go crazy for it.

Basketball is the second most attended sport in Spain after soccer/football.


Out of all the Major American sports, the only thing that comes close to being as popular worldwide is Hockey.

Sure, there are countries where it's popular, but that doesn't change my point. Examples like Spain and Lithuania really serve to emphasize what I was talking about - it tends to be the countries where it's popular that produce good players and have good national teams, and vice versa. But the best of those players still go to the one country where the biggest basketball fan base (and the most money) is. Of course there are places where it's more popular than others, but as long as it's substantially less popular than football on a global scale, it isn't going to even come close to football in terms of worldwide player pool and competition quality, and as long as there's one market that dominates the others in terms of size and total willingness to spend then the best players are mostly going to end up there.

JEDean89
09-08-2013, 01:49 PM
i counted about 11 top 50 players who are born foreign. i think it would be great for Basketball and the NBA. The truth is what you are talking about all comes down to money. As other leagues become more and more popular, there will be more leagues who can make competitive offers. I could see an MLE guy choose to go to China for8 mill instead of 5, or a fringe allstar taking a max deal (20 mil or so) as opposed to 11 or so in the States. The fact is that the money is so much better in the NBA that all the best players come here. There are only a handful of guys who resist coming to the States, but I think that will change as there is more incentive to go somewhere else. The NBA, an NBA style Euro League, Asia League and South American League would be wonderful. I doubt those other leagues will ever get to the level the NBA is, but it's possible. David Stern has done a terrific job making Basketball and international sport and I think once Africa gets truly tapped for Talent, we will start to see a larger talent pool. That said, the NBA has all the best players in the world and the difference between LBJ, and say Luol Deng, who is probably around the 50th best players is monstrous. There are only 10 or so freak of nature basketball players out there at any given time. Even if the whole world were tapped, there still wouldn't be enough Allstar caliber players to fill 1/4th of a league, let alone 4.

Kashmir13579
09-08-2013, 02:04 PM
Think it other way.

Why have it all in one product instead of having 4 equally good products ( the top leagues, like Premier, Calcio, Liga, Bundesliga in soccer) and 1 mega good product ( international club competition).

Interesting notion. It would be easier to see happening if we didn't have 30 teams.

aTinyPanda
09-08-2013, 02:12 PM
It would be diluted because there would be less elite players in the NBA and that would mean the quality of basketball drops.

No. There wouldn't. We're NOT talking about sharing the players, we're talking about growing the youth of other countries so they are on the same level.

The NBA would have the EXACT same players it has now, the exact same talent pool. And then a foreign league, through various youth programmes, will have developed a league just as good.


The NBA isn't losing anything in this hypothetical.


The problem right now is that other countries basketball programmes don't get the same funding as their American counterparts. If the youth were developed on the same level as America, you wouldn't have less talent in the NBA, just more talent in other leagues.




Although I agree it is kind of greedy to try to keep the thing an America-centric league and in the very long term would help basketball globally... Theres no reason to attack Chronz or his opinion. You sound like an idiot when you start throwing around sweeping generalizations based on a person's nationality.

It's only a generalization if it's untrue. Which it isn't. That's exactly what he was acting like, a stereotypical American.

Would he still want all of the top talent in one league if that league was in Spain, Lithuania, France, England, Germany etc? I don't think so.




Look at the way football works (that's soccer for you yanks) with UEFA, the top teams from the European leagues playing each other in Europe to be crowned a "true champion". Think about how good the Olympics would be for basketball if 3 or 4 other countries had the same sort of funding and developed the same talent as America.

It doesn't dilute the sport at all, it makes it more competitive and more entertaining for the WORLD. Most of you are too focused on the NBA and how it would effect America, think of the bigger picture here.

Dude you come off as the biggest douche bag. your delusions of superiority based on your nationality is arrogant and hilarious at the same time. Seriously stop trying to sound like you have any idea what you're talking about. Talent is heavily diluted in football. There are tons of guys like ibra who will go sign with some bad French team like psg whom happen to have tons of money to offer all of a sudden?

I already explained to you why the talent would dilute in the nba... If you can't understand that then I'm sorry but you're either not paying attention or being daft on purpose because you've turned this into another "stoooopid greeeedy amerycanzzz!!!" rant.

MickeyMgl
09-09-2013, 12:58 AM
Dont turn it into a racial thing.

And i made up those numbers to NOT DERAIL the thread :D of course the number of nba-talent players that are abroad+ ncaa may be bigger tan the one i gave.
But you will concurr that in the top 50 there are only like 5 at worst 10 at best non americans....

In the top 50 NOW? I'd say at least 10.

Chronz
09-09-2013, 01:16 AM
Chronz you're not diluting the product. It would have the same number of elite players it does right now. It would be the exact same as it is right now, therefore not diluted, the same.
The NBA has always been where the vast majority of the best have performed, if you enter an era where this is no longer the case, you have indeed diluted its talent pool. I understand what you are trying to get at, I dont agree with it. Its fine, we dont have to agree.


Your opinion is that of a greedy American. Nothing more.
Nationalism can be just as bad as racism bro, this has nothing to do with me being American and everything to do with being exposed to the NBA for as long as Ive been. If I were Canadian or something , I would STILL want the NBA to continue being the place I get to watch the very best compete regularly.


If you truly don't want to see the rest of the world prosper in this sport, you can never refer to yourself as a basketball fan.
This makes no sense. I could care less where a player comes from, what I care about is being able to watch said player compete vs the very best regularly. How is that possible in your world? Its not... thats why I dont consider you a true basketball fan. You would be OK without regularly watching the best basketball you possibly could. You cannot accomplish this unless you watch a league where the best reside.

If I come off as a greedy American, its only because you're an extremist foreigner. If the NBA were played in France, I would STILL want it to be the STRONGEST it could ever be.

Chronz
09-09-2013, 01:22 AM
It's only a generalization if it's untrue. Which it isn't. That's exactly what he was acting like, a stereotypical American.

Would he still want all of the top talent in one league if that league was in Spain, Lithuania, France, England, Germany etc? I don't think so.

Prove it.... I just disproved this assertion by responding to your post. Where in my post did I say anything about my nationality? Why are YOU so intently focusing on it? Could it be your argument lacks the merit to stand on its own?

I care about WATCHING THE BEST COMPETE AGAINST EACH OTHER.

Chronz
09-09-2013, 01:24 AM
The truth is what you are talking about all comes down to money.
Thats certainly a strong factor, but this is the case because of the sheer numbers behind the support of this league. Still its not always about money, some of these players have alot of pride and want to test their skills against the very best the WORLD has to offer.

Chronz
09-09-2013, 01:30 AM
Notice the constant use of the WORLDS talent in my posts. Notice your extremist opinion that ONLY Yanks benefit from a league where the best players compete regularly..... I didn't know Canadians were "Yanks".....


You've been exposed as irrational, like it or not, you dont have to be American to enjoy a league in which you get to WATCH the very BEST player Basketball regularly. Dont get me wrong, I do take pride in Basketball being born in America as a continent, our side of the world popularized this baby. But my argument wouldn't change if I or the NBA were anywhere else.

Hellcrooner
09-09-2013, 01:35 AM
Prove it.... I just disproved this assertion by responding to your post. Where in my post did I say anything about my nationality? Why are YOU so intently focusing on it? Could it be your argument lacks the merit to stand on its own?

I care about WATCHING THE BEST COMPETE AGAINST EACH OTHER.

You dont get 100% of the best players in the league right now.

there are 15 roster spots for 30 teams = 450 players in the nba.

I can assure you there are aroound 100-150 players playing outside of the league that woud need to replace some of the ones that are in to say nba has ALL the best players.


go figure if the talent pool grows, thats when NO lEAGUE can claim to have MOST of the talent and thats when the scenario in wich several leagues gather most of the talent and then they need to have an INTERLEAGUE where the top 2-4 teams of said leagues play against each other to reach that " most talent" league you desire.

Thas the soccer model.

in wich you can choose wich of the top leagues that have MOST of the talent you want to watch ( clacio, Liga, Bundesliga, Permier, Frnech 1.,...) and even watch more tan one

and then you have the supercompetition where you actually SEE the best of the best clash, every year.

Go figure , this also creates an incentive for teams to fight, because if you get to a top x position in your national league you get to participate in the "supeleague" that automatically RAISES the teams that can not win teh national title in still going hard as hell trying to get one of the last spots in international competition
hence= better product.

and dont come with ****.......if you live in l.a you have to watch clipper vs knicks games om the MSG ON TV wich is exaclty the sama3 you would do
in a WOrld League game in Barcelona vs Barcelona and Clippers watch it on tv.

You get to StILL watch your american league clipper games, then you also get to watch international league clipper games ( if they qualify) and of course the games they play home in both competitions, you can attend.

Whats teh problem here?

IN any case they thing that would be DESTROYED in this scenario is NCAA.

I better not get into the whole Promotion-relegation thing, that is also needed in nba to eliminate tanking forever btw and make things MUCH MORE interesting for " bad team" fan bases and give them incentive to still attend to the games, or you would go bananas.

bholly
09-09-2013, 10:03 AM
Crooner, what football team to do you support? All of them, if you support more than one.

Goose17
09-09-2013, 12:41 PM
Notice the constant use of the WORLDS talent in my posts. Notice your extremist opinion that ONLY Yanks benefit from a league where the best players compete regularly..... I didn't know Canadians were "Yanks".....


You've been exposed as irrational, like it or not, you dont have to be American to enjoy a league in which you get to WATCH the very BEST player Basketball regularly. Dont get me wrong, I do take pride in Basketball being born in America as a continent, our side of the world popularized this baby. But my argument wouldn't change if I or the NBA were anywhere else.

First of all you don't watch every NBA game anyway, what's the difference between having the best talent in one league or six as long as the best of the best are playing each other in some form (A true WORLD championship) and you get a chance to watch them (on TV or whatever).

And I never said you had to be American to enjoy a league in which you get to watch the very best basketball regularly.

I'm saying it benefits the entire world if the basketball programmes across the world receive the same funding as their American programmes because we will then have MORE talent across the entire world. That can only be a good thing. You're too busy thinking about what will happen to your own country, I'm thinking about how it will help EVERYONE on a global level. I don't care about my country specifically, I would just like to see other countries (any country) getting the same funding for their youth basketball that America gets. And if basketball isn't selling, the funding isn't going to come.

Your reluctance to see other countries grow and prosper in this sport only reveals your xenophobic tendencies, quit acting like I'm the irrational one here. You're the one that is scared of other countries becoming as good at a sport as your own.


Oh and FYI, I'm pretty sure Naismith was Canadian and therefore Basketball did not originate in America (unless you're being broad and talking about the entire continent).

tredigs
09-09-2013, 01:22 PM
You dont get 100% of the best players in the league right now.

there are 15 roster spots for 30 teams = 450 players in the nba.

I can assure you there are aroound 100-150 players playing outside of the league that woud need to replace some of the ones that are in to say nba has ALL the best players.


go figure if the talent pool grows, thats when NO lEAGUE can claim to have MOST of the talent and thats when the scenario in wich several leagues gather most of the talent and then they need to have an INTERLEAGUE where the top 2-4 teams of said leagues play against each other to reach that " most talent" league you desire.

Thas the soccer model.

in wich you can choose wich of the top leagues that have MOST of the talent you want to watch ( clacio, Liga, Bundesliga, Permier, Frnech 1.,...) and even watch more tan one

and then you have the supercompetition where you actually SEE the best of the best clash, every year.

Go figure , this also creates an incentive for teams to fight, because if you get to a top x position in your national league you get to participate in the "supeleague" that automatically RAISES the teams that can not win teh national title in still going hard as hell trying to get one of the last spots in international competition
hence= better product.

and dont come with ****.......if you live in l.a you have to watch clipper vs knicks games om the MSG ON TV wich is exaclty the sama3 you would do
in a WOrld League game in Barcelona vs Barcelona and Clippers watch it on tv.

You get to StILL watch your american league clipper games, then you also get to watch international league clipper games ( if they qualify) and of course the games they play home in both competitions, you can attend.

Whats teh problem here?

IN any case they thing that would be DESTROYED in this scenario is NCAA.

I better not get into the whole Promotion-relegation thing, that is also needed in nba to eliminate tanking forever btw and make things MUCH MORE interesting for " bad team" fan bases and give them incentive to still attend to the games, or you would go bananas.

teh problems here are, for one, the watering down of the regular season, the logistics of traveling 6,000+ miles for games (California to Milan), where currently the most tumultuous (and hated) road trip is about 2,400 miles by flight from Cali to NY. Proximity + massive popularity is why the Champions League model works, it would not make sense for the MLS to join that competition logistically (even if they had billionaire Russians front-loading teams in the league and that squad caught up in quality to do so). Not to mention whether or not the NBA would have to change their # of games or scratch their own playoffs.

The onus is on the European or other foreign leagues to catch up to the NBA if they ever wanted to explore something like this. That is the only reason why a champions league exists - the talent dilution dictated that a true playoffs was necessary and of course people were ultra eager to see it. As is, that is not the case for professional basketball.

Hellcrooner
09-09-2013, 01:22 PM
Crooner, what football team to do you support? All of them, if you support more than one.

Barcelona.

But i also support Lugo ( where i was born) Zaragoza ( where i live).

And like a lot of teams in different leagues.
Bayern/Moenchengladbach
Crystal Palace/Liverpool
Milan
Caracas
Independiente
Brugge
Ajax....

I have a favourite team or two in every league.

tredigs
09-09-2013, 01:27 PM
First of all you don't watch every NBA game anyway, what's the difference between having the best talent in one league or six as long as the best of the best are playing each other in some form (A true WORLD championship) and you get a chance to watch them (on TV or whatever).

And I never said you had to be American to enjoy a league in which you get to watch the very best basketball regularly.

I'm saying it benefits the entire world if the basketball programmes across the world receive the same funding as their American programmes because we will then have MORE talent across the entire world. That can only be a good thing. You're too busy thinking about what will happen to your own country, I'm thinking about how it will help EVERYONE on a global level. I don't care about my country specifically, I would just like to see other countries (any country) getting the same funding for their youth basketball that America gets. And if basketball isn't selling, the funding isn't going to come.

Your reluctance to see other countries grow and prosper in this sport only reveals your xenophobic tendencies, quit acting like I'm the irrational one here. You're the one that is scared of other countries becoming as good at a sport as your own.


Oh and FYI, I'm pretty sure Naismith was Canadian and therefore Basketball did not originate in America (unless you're being broad and talking about the entire continent).

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by all of this "funding"? Do you think our government or the NBA is paying for childrens leagues around the US? The reason why there are so many basketball courts in general is because it's a massively popular sport for kids to play, and that popularity dictates that courts should be built and leagues should be made. These camps or leagues that kids go to are "funded" by the children's parents. There is nothing holding back Europe from doing the same, and many do.

Goose17
09-09-2013, 02:10 PM
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by all of this "funding"? Do you think our government or the NBA is paying for childrens leagues around the US? The reason why there are so many basketball courts in general is because it's a massively popular sport for kids to play, and that popularity dictates that courts should be built and leagues should be made. These camps or leagues that kids go to are "funded" by the children's parents. There is nothing holding back Europe from doing the same, and many do.

I'm not talking about playing a game at camp or something, I'm talking about youth squads.

Funding comes from governments and sporting bodies. If it's not popular, it won't get good funding. It won't be popular unless you have an entertaining league. To have an entertaining league you need elite/entertaining players.

Lithuania's national sport is basketball and even they don't have the same sort of funding for the sport as America.


Looking at my own country, our college teams aren't even as good as your High School teams, and your College ball is bigger than our pro ball. Why? Money.


Deng is making an impact for us personally though. But on a global stage it isn't the same, and the talent level will never be the same as America until they start developing their youth at the same level and to do that they need a lot more funding.

Chronz
09-09-2013, 02:15 PM
You dont get 100% of the best players in the league right now.
Irrelevant. Show me where I said we get 100%.....


go figure if the talent pool grows, thats when NO lEAGUE can claim to have MOST of the talent and thats when the scenario in wich several leagues gather most of the talent and then they need to have an INTERLEAGUE where the top 2-4 teams of said leagues play against each other to reach that " most talent" league you desire.

Sounds awful and its nothing that I desire because you are minimizing my experience.



Whats teh problem here?
The problem is that I go from watching the very best compete regularly to NOT watching the very best compete regularly.


IN any case they thing that would be DESTROYED in this scenario is NCAA.
Doubtful, not that I would care either.

Chronz
09-09-2013, 02:25 PM
First of all you don't watch every NBA game anyway
I watch a **** LOAD tho. I dont care for some teams, which is why I am for contraction.



what's the difference between having the best talent in one league or six as long as the best of the best are playing each other in some form (A true WORLD championship) and you get a chance to watch them (on TV or whatever).

The difference would be in the availability. I go from watching the best compete regularly, to only when interleague matches are allowed. FFS how many times do I have to repeat this to you foreigners.



And I never said you had to be American to enjoy a league in which you get to watch the very best basketball regularly.
False, you said only Yanks benefit from a strong NBA.


I'm saying it benefits the entire world if the basketball programmes across the world receive the same funding as their American programmes because we will then have MORE talent across the entire world. That can only be a good thing. You're too busy thinking about what will happen to your own country, I'm thinking about how it will help EVERYONE on a global level. I don't care about my country specifically, I would just like to see other countries (any country) getting the same funding for their youth basketball that America gets. And if basketball isn't selling, the funding isn't going to come.
LMFAO its YOU who is focusing on nationality, thats what you cant comprehend and its why you cant move beyond this infantile argument. Get it through your head, the NBA could be in France and I could be Brazilian for all I care, it wouldn't change my argument in the slightest. Until you concede this point, we will continue going in circles.


Your reluctance to see other countries grow and prosper in this sport only reveals your xenophobic tendencies, quit acting like I'm the irrational one here. You're the one that is scared of other countries becoming as good at a sport as your own.
So everyone else is crazy huh.... can you prove any of your theories? Why have I been able to maintain my opinion while revealing that the NBA could be in ANY COUNTRY and I would STILL want it to be the league where I get to watch the best.

Plz comprehend the argument I am making and attack it with logical coherency, enough of this presumptuous ********, if your argument cannot stand on its own merit, there is no need to own that argument.



Oh and FYI, I'm pretty sure Naismith was Canadian and therefore Basketball did not originate in America (unless you're being broad and talking about the entire continent)
You're not very good at reading comprehension are you....

Here was my EXACT QUOTE.

Dont get me wrong, I do take pride in Basketball being born in America as a continent, our side of the world popularized this baby.


I am not being broad, I was VERY specific.. This is just further proof of your inability to grasp the context of this discussion. Plz tell me you're an ESL poster because the amount of time it takes for you to get on track is maddening.

tredigs
09-09-2013, 02:26 PM
I'm not talking about playing a game at camp or something, I'm talking about youth squads.

Funding comes from governments and sporting bodies. If it's not popular, it won't get good funding. It won't be popular unless you have an entertaining league. To have an entertaining league you need elite/entertaining players.

Lithuania's national sport is basketball and even they don't have the same sort of funding for the sport as America.


Looking at my own country, our college teams aren't even as good as your High School teams, and your College ball is bigger than our pro ball. Why? Money.


Deng is making an impact for us personally though. But on a global stage it isn't the same, and the talent level will never be the same as America until they start developing their youth at the same level and to do that they need a lot more funding.

The government does not fund basketball in the United States, that is a foreign concept to us. They self fund here. You think you can just throw money at these kids and that's all it takes? Soccer in the United States has plenty of money, but the reason the MLS is not on the Champions league level is because A) Our athletes are spread across a half dozen sports, B) The elite coaching academies are driven to Europe where the talent is more saturated, and C) Fans are just not as enthusiastic about the game as a whole, and with lower ticket sales and TV ratings they are not able to throw as much money at foreign talent.

Was it Uruguay's amazing bound of riches that allowed them to win the 1950 World Cup? This notion that the US is great at basketball due to money is hilarious. We have a constant storyline of absurd athletes here that grow up doing nothing but playing basketball in ratty gyms specifically because they have little money to do anything else (and it's a good way to stay out of trouble). It's that athleticism + drive + competition among like minded people that manifest them into elite ballers capable of making the NBA once they reach the NCAA level.

Foreign pigs.

Chronz
09-09-2013, 02:27 PM
teh problems here are, for one, the watering down of the regular season, the logistics of traveling 6,000+ miles for games (California to Milan), where currently the most tumultuous (and hated) road trip is about 2,400 miles by flight from Cali to NY. Proximity + massive popularity is why the Champions League model works, it would not make sense for the MLS to join that competition logistically (even if they had billionaire Russians front-loading teams in the league and that squad caught up in quality to do so). Not to mention whether or not the NBA would have to change their # of games or scratch their own playoffs.

The onus is on the European or other foreign leagues to catch up to the NBA if they ever wanted to explore something like this. That is the only reason why a champions league exists - the talent dilution dictated that a true playoffs was necessary and of course people were ultra eager to see it. As is, that is not the case for professional basketball.
The logistics are one thing but why would I want to watch an inferior product and be subject to only watching the best play on the rare occasions the leagues collide?

Chronz
09-09-2013, 02:35 PM
I'm not talking about playing a game at camp or something, I'm talking about youth squads.

Funding comes from governments and sporting bodies. If it's not popular, it won't get good funding. It won't be popular unless you have an entertaining league. To have an entertaining league you need elite/entertaining players.

Lithuania's national sport is basketball and even they don't have the same sort of funding for the sport as America.


Looking at my own country, our college teams aren't even as good as your High School teams, and your College ball is bigger than our pro ball. Why? Money.


Deng is making an impact for us personally though. But on a global stage it isn't the same, and the talent level will never be the same as America until they start developing their youth at the same level and to do that they need a lot more funding.
Thats not how basketball started here. Besides, for countries that love the sport and cannot support the infrastructure, well economic climates dictate funds, those are problems much bigger than basketball can solve. Ask Arvydas and Sarunas how they built their court and found their freedom during the toughest times. If you build it, they will come.

tredigs
09-09-2013, 02:39 PM
The logistics are one thing but why would I want to watch an inferior product and be subject to only watching the best play on the rare occasions the leagues collide?

You wouldn't. The only way someone would want this is if different leagues in close vicinity organically grew into elite entities of their own, and in turn it became worthy and natural to create this super-tournament of sorts.

Or, if you're selfish and want it on your own soil simply because you want to play with the big red ball too. It's the NBA's ball, sorry, go make your own.

Chronz
09-09-2013, 03:07 PM
Isnt the ABA an example of another league that had lots of money thrown at it, lots of stars defecting and still failing? This on American soil no less. Prolly not a good comparison because it was so long ago but as a fan of basketball, I would have hated having my players split across like that. I can imagine how maddening it must've been to be a Doctor J fan and have people questioning his talent, not knowing how he would fare vs the very best. The ABA was great for the game because of its innovations but I dont think there is any progress to be made with regards to the court that cant be attained organically (like say, expanding the court to fit todays superior athletes), but what we do know is that we missed out on some amazing rivalries. No way around it, NBA was diluted because of the presence of the ABA. They made a big deal about an ABA-NBA game that pitted Wilt vs Gilmore for the first time, imagine that, what should have been a regular occurrence was only visible to fans for a special game.
Would hate for that to happen again.

aTinyPanda
09-09-2013, 03:15 PM
Or, if you're selfish and want it on your own soil simply because you want to play with the big red ball too. It's the NBA's ball, sorry, go make your own.

This is a very good point. Goose keeps calling Chronz selfish for wanting to maintain the level of the league, while making the assumption that it's entirely because it's an American-based league and needs to stay that way to satiate our undeniable American greed. No one (especially Goose) is acknowledging the fact that the only reason he is so fervent in this argument is because he is unsatisfied with the level of competition in his OWN country.. and would rather see the NBA sacrifice some of it's elite talent market share to better grow his OWN league. Hiding behind the guise of "hurr durr better for the whole world, greedy American!!!" does not deflect from the simple fact that in the end you want your league to improve, Goose. You revealed this pretty clearly in your most recent post.

I am a huge fan of football on an international scale, but I do not demand that Liga, Bundesliga, and the EPL start shipping some of their elite talent over to the MLS, or developing our youth leagues in the US as a good-will gesture for footballing world-wide. I want the MLS to grow organically, and through the passion and growing interest of the fan base. Sporting fanbases and talent pools aren't created by throwing money at the problem.. the money is a result of the organically growing interest and passion. This is what you do not seem to understand. If basketball hasn't caught on in your country, it is because the people have other priorities. You want that to change, go organize a youth league on your own or something.. start a grass roots movement. Don't go demanding that the most elite league in the world sacrifice something it's taken decades to build so that you can "get yours" too.

Tony_Starks
09-09-2013, 04:01 PM
I refuse to watch a watered down version of basketball. People love it because you see the elite vs elite every night. And last I checked foreign players have the same opportunity as American born to make it to the NBA. It's all about skill, theres no conspiracy to keep them out.

If there was a Chinese version of Kobe or a Puerto Rican version of Kevin Durant do you really think scouts wouldn't be all over them? Ricky Rubio had the biggest buzz in recent memory and so far he's been extremely average...

Chronz
09-09-2013, 04:13 PM
I refuse to watch a watered down version of basketball.

Bingo.....
It really just boils down to this simple sentence.
True Basketball fans will appreciate this comment, selfish foreigners will berate and label you, regardless of how infantile they appear for doing so.

tredigs
09-09-2013, 04:21 PM
This is a very good point. Goose keeps calling Chronz selfish for wanting to maintain the level of the league, while making the assumption that it's entirely because it's an American-based league and needs to stay that way to satiate our undeniable American greed. No one (especially Goose) is acknowledging the fact that the only reason he is so fervent in this argument is because he is unsatisfied with the level of competition in his OWN country.. and would rather see the NBA sacrifice some of it's elite talent market share to better grow his OWN league. Hiding behind the guise of "hurr durr better for the whole world, greedy American!!!" does not deflect from the simple fact that in the end you want your league to improve, Goose. You revealed this pretty clearly in your most recent post.

I am a huge fan of football on an international scale, but I do not demand that Liga, Bundesliga, and the EPL start shipping some of their elite talent over to the MLS, or developing our youth leagues in the US as a good-will gesture for footballing world-wide. I want the MLS to grow organically, and through the passion and growing interest of the fan base. Sporting fanbases and talent pools aren't created by throwing money at the problem.. the money is a result of the organically growing interest and passion. This is what you do not seem to understand. If basketball hasn't caught on in your country, it is because the people have other priorities. You want that to change, go organize a youth league on your own or something.. start a grass roots movement. Don't go demanding that the most elite league in the world sacrifice something it's taken decades to build so that you can "get yours" too.

Bam. Exactly. There is no rebuttal for this, and this is my point. I would LOVE it if somehow the foreign leagues talent pool became so great that not everyone could come to the NBA and an international tournament for a "world champion" was necessary, and I wish them all the luck in making that happen.

Some foreigners here are mistaking "wanting to watch the best compete against each other as much as possible" with "American greed" simply because this country is the one that made it happen, but this is not 1895. Televisions, media streaming and more importantly NBA League Pass exist. The NBA has never been more accessible. Enjoy the fact that you get to watch the best talent possible with the click of a mouse.

The fact that the MLS/Champions league being the exact inverse of this situation - and myself never once hearing an American complain about this despite being very involved in that world both in America and in Europe - is the most ironic thing here when "selfishness" is brought up.

bholly
09-09-2013, 04:26 PM
Barcelona.

But i also support Lugo ( where i was born) Zaragoza ( where i live).

And like a lot of teams in different leagues.
Bayern/Moenchengladbach
Crystal Palace/Liverpool
Milan
Caracas
Independiente
Brugge
Ajax....

I have a favourite team or two in every league.

My guess was going to be RM, but Barcelona makes just as much sense. That whole list is just so unsurprising. Barca, Bayern, Milan, Ajax, Caracas, CAI, Brugge, Liverpool, and the LA Lakers. It really isn't hard to see a pattern there, and it's a pattern which suggests why you're so keen on the Euro soccer model that leads to such massive and perpetual disparities between clubs - ie why you're so okay with systems that lead to super top heavy leagues that have the same teams winning year after year after year.

The Champions League model, ie having a supra-national league for the top clubs from each league, makes a tonne of sense when you've already got a lot of high quality leagues, but it isn't a reason to want many leagues. The best basketball teams in the world already play each other every year - it's called the NBA playoffs. "Let's spread the best teams around the world so that they can get back together and play each other less often" doesn't make sense.
It's also worth noting that the Champions League model reinforces the class disparities in the national leagues pretty severely - more so now than ever, in my opinion - and that isn't really acceptable to US fans. Basketball doesn't have nearly the same dominance in the US or elsewhere that football has. Fans don't show up and pay to see perpetually middling teams like they do in Europe. If you had the level of inequality in the NBA that you have in Euro football most (or at least many) teams probably wouldn't survive. Anything that leads to that level of inequality is going to be bad for the NBA.
Your proposal to remove the draft is the same thing. It would just lead to the good teams staying good and the bad teams staying bad. That's great for someone with your lineup of favourite teams, but it's awful for many teams and their fans, and would be terrible for the league.

Back to the main topic, I agree that it would be great if there were enough NBA calibre players to fill leagues around the world, and once that was the case I'd definitely want the best teams from each league to face off against each other. But there aren't, and there aren't going to be as long as their isn't the money and interest from the fans around the world, which their probably isn't going to be. Any proposal to try and make the leagues more equal that isn't driven by such a natural increase in the talent pool is going to have the effect of watering down the NBA, and all that does is decrease the opportunities we get to see the best play the best.

Hellcrooner
09-09-2013, 05:00 PM
i think some people is not understanding the thread at all.

Not surprisingly anyway.

Hellcrooner
09-09-2013, 05:08 PM
My guess was going to be RM, but Barcelona makes just as much sense. That whole list is just so unsurprising. Barca, Bayern, Milan, Ajax, Caracas, CAI, Brugge, Liverpool, and the LA Lakers. It really isn't hard to see a pattern there, and it's a pattern which suggests why you're so keen on the Euro soccer model that leads to such massive and perpetual disparities between clubs - ie why you're so okay with systems that lead to super top heavy leagues that have the same teams winning year after year after year.

The Champions League model, ie having a supra-national league for the top clubs from each league, makes a tonne of sense when you've already got a lot of high quality leagues, but it isn't a reason to want many leagues. The best basketball teams in the world already play each other every year - it's called the NBA playoffs. "Let's spread the best teams around the world so that they can get back together and play each other less often" doesn't make sense.
It's also worth noting that the Champions League model reinforces the class disparities in the national leagues pretty severely - more so now than ever, in my opinion - and that isn't really acceptable to US fans. Basketball doesn't have nearly the same dominance in the US or elsewhere that football has. Fans don't show up and pay to see perpetually middling teams like they do in Europe. If you had the level of inequality in the NBA that you have in Euro football most (or at least many) teams probably wouldn't survive. Anything that leads to that level of inequality is going to be bad for the NBA.
Your proposal to remove the draft is the same thing. It would just lead to the good teams staying good and the bad teams staying bad. That's great for someone with your lineup of favourite teams, but it's awful for many teams and their fans, and would be terrible for the league.

Back to the main topic, I agree that it would be great if there were enough NBA calibre players to fill leagues around the world, and once that was the case I'd definitely want the best teams from each league to face off against each other. But there aren't, and there aren't going to be as long as their isn't the money and interest from the fans around the world, which their probably isn't going to be. Any proposal to try and make the leagues more equal that isn't driven by such a natural increase in the talent pool is going to have the effect of watering down the NBA, and all that does is decrease the opportunities we get to see the best play the best.

Inequity ?

:D

teams that have won " la liga " since i was born (77).

RM
FCB
ATM
VAL
ATH
RLS
DEP

thats 7

Premier:

Liv
MUFC
CITY
Ever
Ars
chel
villa
N.for
Leeds

and i dont remember some, thats 9.

BundesLiga:
Bay
Bd
BM
Kais
Ham
WB
Sttut

thats 7 and im sure forgetting some.

Calcio:
Mil
Int
Juv
Nap
Ver
Fio
Rom
Laz

thats 8.



CHAMPIONS LEAGUE:
Fcb
Rm
Por
Oly
Int
Mil
Juv
NFor
AVill
Live
Mufc
Chel
Bay
BD
Aja
Ham
Ste
RS

thats 18.



Nba =
Lak
Cel
Chi
S.A
Det
Sea
Was
Phi
Mia
Dal
Hou

11.

Id say its pretty even in terms of parity among the leagues.

Tony_Starks
09-09-2013, 05:12 PM
i think some people is not understanding the thread at all.

Not surprisingly anyway.


Seriously explain what you propose. All players playing for their native country in separate leagues? In which case America would still have the best players and current international NBA players would be playing against weaker competition.

Are you saying American players playing on foreign teams? No star would do that. Waste of talent.

So what are you saying?

Chronz
09-09-2013, 05:16 PM
i think some people is not understanding the thread at all.

Not surprisingly anyway.

I think most people understood the topic and disagreed with the premise being worthwhile.

The ones who dont understand anything are the ones clinging to words like xenophobia

tredigs
09-09-2013, 05:27 PM
Seriously explain what you propose. All players playing for their native country in separate leagues? In which case America would still have the best players and current international NBA players would be playing against weaker competition.

Are you saying American players playing on foreign teams? No star would do that. Waste of talent.

So what are you saying?

I don't get what they're proposing either. Do you want USA to fund your leagues, even though they don't fund our own? Do you want them to send our players there? Or, do you want the NBA to just begin a "champions league" despite the massive talent discrepancy in hopes that in 35 years the sport will further catch on and it will someday be a competitive product?

aTinyPanda
09-09-2013, 05:28 PM
I think most people understood the topic and disagreed with the premise being worthwhile.

The ones who dont understand anything are the ones clinging to words like xenophobia

:burn:

bholly
09-09-2013, 06:37 PM
Inequity ?

:D

Starting in the 1951-52 season, so going back 61 years, there have been 3 times that neither Barca or RM made the top 2. They've won 25 of the last 29. They've won 9 straight and the other has been runner up each time.

In 21 seasons of the Premier League, 5 teams have won, with 19 of those going to 3 teams. Man U have never finished outside the top 3, and Arsenal haven't finished outside the top 4 for 17 straight years. Of the 20 current teams, 9 have never finished in the top third, ie the top 6.

In the last 20 years, Bayern and Dortmund have won 16 Bundesliga titles. One of them has finished in the top two in 28 of the last 29 years. Bayern have finished in the top two in 24 of the last 29 seasons, and outside the top 4 only twice in that time.

In the Serie A, three teams have won 12 straight, 20 of the last 22, and 26 of the last 33. Since WWII, 68 seasons, there have been two seasons where one of Juve, Milan, Inter didn't finish in the top 2.


The NBA is nothing even close to that level of top-heaviness. Not even in the same universe. Nobody has anything like that level of dominance.
If you go back to the days when there were like 9 teams then LAL and BOS have been pretty dominant, but it hasn't been anything like that in the last few decades since it became a full sized league.

There have been 5 champions and 7 different finalists in just the last 7 years. You have to go back a long time to get 5 champions in the national leagues you mentioned.
15 franchises - fully half the league - have made the finals in the last 16 years. 7 have won it.
18 teams have made the finals since the Premier League was invented - compared to 8 finishing in the top 2 in the premier league.
27 teams have made the playoffs in just the last 6 years.
Since Russell's Celtics, only twice has a team made the finals 4 times in a row, and there've only been 3 three-peats, compared to the crazy dominance teams have had in the Euro leagues.
There are only two teams (DEN, SAS) who haven't missed the playoffs in the last decade - compared to the Euro super teams who've never fallen beyond the top 6 or so in many decades.


The NBA gets a bad rap for its lack of parity, but it is in an entirely different category, a whole different world, to the Euro leagues. Just listing a bunch of champions doesn't change that systemic dominance.

Chronz
09-09-2013, 07:08 PM
I think it should go without saying that fans of basketball want to see global growth, but why does it have to come at the expense of a league in which the very best compete?

This is at the heart of my rebuttal, forget about nationalism and focus on that very specific FACT. The game is growing just fine IMO. Its still a fairly new game and its popularity IS rising, talent is becoming more widespread (its why Team USA had to up their game) and there is no longer a sense of clear cut superiority. But the best tend to want to compete against the best. People tend to want to see this sort of thing as well. So it will ALWAYS exist. There will always be a league that swallows up the vast majority of the talent, the day this ends will be when money is no longer a factor and/or interest in the sport dries up.

JEDean89
09-10-2013, 12:46 AM
I'm also curious as to whether or not Soccer, Lacrosse or Rugby can become a 5th major sport in the US. My guess is that it's only a matter of time.