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Mile High Champ
09-05-2013, 08:45 AM
Hey guys, It is that time of year again! Once again we kick of the PSD NBA Off-Season Player Rankings. This is the 6th year I have done this on PSD and it always brings some great discussion and debate. Please keep things civil and discuss who you feel is most fitting and deserving of being voted in each poll.

A lot has changed since last season. Lebron James and the Miami Heat are back to back NBA champions after an exciting 7 game series win over the Spurs. Let start the discussion since lots has changed since the start of last season. Please TRY AND VOTE FOR THE BEST PLAYER AND DON'T BE A HOMER. I will leave the poll open for one day and than we can carry on to the next best player at that position. I will add more players after each round. I have also included the results of those last 5 years so everyone can see how much things have changed...Enjoy.

Due to some people complaining that the rule was not written for the PG poll; in order to be eligible for these rankings, players must of played in 10 or more games last season. Thank you.


REMEMBER this is based on who is the best player, not the player who has the potential to be the best


2013 Off-Season PSD C Rankings

1) Tim Duncan
2)
3)
4)
5)
6)
7)
8)
9)
10)



2012 Off-Season PSD C Rankings

1) Dwight Howard
2) Andrew Bynum
3) Kevin Garnett
4) Marc Gasol
5) Tim Duncan
6) Tyson Chandler
7) Al Horford
8) Al Jefferson
9) Roy Hibbert
10) DeMarcus Cousins

2011 Off-Season C Rankings

1) Dwight Howard
2) Andrew Bynum
3) Tim Duncan
4) Andrew Bogut
5) Al Horford
6) Marc Gasol
7) Tyson Chandler
8) Joakim Noah
9) Nene
10) Al Jefferson

2010 Off-Season C Rankings

1) Dwight Howard
2) Yao Ming
3) Andrew Bogut
4) Brook Lopez
5) Andrew Bynum
6) Marc Gasol
7) Joakim Noah
8) Al Horford
9) Al Jefferson
10) Chris Kaman

2009 Off-Season C Rankings

1) Dwight Howard
2) Yao Ming
3) Al Jefferson
4) Shaquille O'Neal
5) Andrea Bargnani
6) Andris Biedrins
7) Emeka Okafor
8) Nene
9) Brook Lopez
10) Andrew Bynum

2008 Off-Season C Rankings:

1) Dwight Howard
2) Yao Ming
3) Al Jefferson
4) Andrew Bynum
5) Chris Kaman
6) Tyson Chandler
7) Shaquille O'Neal
8) Marcus Camby
9) Jermaine O'neal
10) Andrew Bogut

Gators123
09-05-2013, 08:48 AM
D12

Big Quett
09-05-2013, 08:58 AM
Joakim Smith.....this isnt even close :D

Pierzynski4Prez
09-05-2013, 09:11 AM
Dwight

kdspurman
09-05-2013, 09:47 AM
Gasol for me. Dwight is 3rd on my list

nycericanguy
09-05-2013, 10:16 AM
D12 is the popular guy to hate right now, but he's clearly #2, and had a case for #1.

kdspurman
09-05-2013, 10:46 AM
D12 is the popular guy to hate right now, but he's clearly #2, and had a case for #1.

Not if we're going off of last years production

nycericanguy
09-05-2013, 10:55 AM
Not if we're going off of last years production

Led the league in rebounding, 58% FG, 2.4bpg, 17.1ppg...

He's set the bar pretty high if people want to act like he had a bad year. If anyone else had those numbers they'd go #1... though I do think Duncan deserves the #1 this year.

Sadds The Gr8
09-05-2013, 11:01 AM
Gasol was better last year but Howard is still the better player.

Shammyguy3
09-05-2013, 11:04 AM
The fact that DeMarcus freaking Cousins is now included in the poll options over Omer Asik is ridiculous. However, neither would be voted here so it doesn't matter right now; it's just stupid how Cousins is viewed on this board and how Asik will likely not get any recognition as a top-10 center.

I'm voting Dwight Howard here. In a down year on a team full of issues he still posted a 57.3ts% 19.1trb% 22.2usg%. And while he wasn't who he used to be defensively, he still anchors a defense.

kdspurman
09-05-2013, 11:27 AM
Led the league in rebounding, 58% FG, 2.4bpg, 17.1ppg...

He's set the bar pretty high if people want to act like he had a bad year. If anyone else had those numbers they'd go #1... though I do think Duncan deserves the #1 this year.

I woudn't say it's a bad year, but when you compare it to his previous 2-3 years, it certainly was a down year. Now injuries played a part in it, and the other part is just his limited offensive game & his trouble passing out of double teams. In the playoffs, he was OK but was obviously frustrated and couldn't do what he wanted to do.

tredigs
09-05-2013, 11:35 AM
I'll go with the DPOY and better offensive player here. Marc.

tredigs
09-05-2013, 11:37 AM
I'll go with the DPOY and better offensive player here. Marc. Dwight's the far superior rebounder, but really doesn't have him in much else.

Advanced wise Marc got him in WS/48, PER, WP, RAPM, Orating + Drating... had a better playoffs... could probably go on.


Edit: ^THAT was supposed to be an edit, not an extra post, but sure I'll just have a conversation with myself on the internet.

Mile High Champ
09-05-2013, 11:50 AM
Joakim Smith.....this isnt even close :D

Just saw that. My fault. Late night yesterday. haha.

Shammyguy3
09-05-2013, 11:54 AM
Dwight's the far superior rebounder, but really doesn't have him in much else.

Advanced wise Marc got him in WS/48, PER, WP, RAPM, Orating + Drating... had a better playoffs... could probably go on.


Edit: ^THAT was supposed to be an edit, not an extra post, but sure I'll just have a conversation with myself on the internet.

:laugh2:

Greg.
09-05-2013, 12:31 PM
The fact that DeMarcus freaking Cousins is now included in the poll options over Omer Asik is ridiculous. However, neither would be voted here so it doesn't matter right now; it's just stupid how Cousins is viewed on this board and how Asik will likely not get any recognition as a top-10 center.

I'm voting Dwight Howard here. In a down year on a team full of issues he still posted a 57.3ts% 19.1trb% 22.2usg%. And while he wasn't who he used to be defensively, he still anchors a defense.

I was starting to wonder if Asik would get any love on here. I don't think he's top 10 but it would be nice to see if any others on PSD think he's that good

Chronz
09-05-2013, 12:39 PM
Dwight was awful last year, no 2 ways around it. Per game averages are pretty but whenever you can argue that you made your team worse on offense, its hard to justify the individual production. Aside from a few games, he was mostly a product of Kobe's attention and one of the worst go to options in the league outside of putbacks and dives to the rim. For all the **** a guy like Blake Griffin gets for his offensive contributions, you'd think they were mistaking him for Dwight.

That said, hes the best defender in the game, he just couldn't show that until the 2nd half of the season. His offense didn't improve like I had hoped it would but it did improve somewhat. Sounds harsh to blame him for playing before his body was ready, but I wouldn't laugh at a Gasol nod. Hibbert deserves some recognition for playing through injury as well tho.

nycericanguy
09-05-2013, 12:56 PM
Dwight not being used properly wasn't his fault.

D'antoni misused Melo as well... and look how bad Gasol was.

The fact that Howard's #'s still were stellar shows just how good he is.

Then you factor in his defense, rebounding and shotblocking/altering... and I don't see how he's not the best C in the game.

JasonJohnHorn
09-05-2013, 01:27 PM
I don't think there is even a debate worth having here. Dwight and Duncan were easily the best two centers in the league this past season. I don't like Dwight, but he's carries a bigger impact than any center out there. I think Duncan clearly had the better year, but Dwight was clearly number two. That said, I can understand those who would suggest Dwight had the best year. However, arguing for anybody other than Duncan and Dwight in the first two spots seems beyond reasonable to me.

Chronz
09-05-2013, 01:37 PM
I don't think there is even a debate worth having here. Dwight and Duncan were easily the best two centers in the league this past season. I don't like Dwight, but he's carries a bigger impact than any center out there. I think Duncan clearly had the better year, but Dwight was clearly number two. That said, I can understand those who would suggest Dwight had the best year. However, arguing for anybody other than Duncan and Dwight in the first two spots seems beyond reasonable to me.

What makes it unreasonable when there is so much objective evidence that can support it?

tredigs
09-05-2013, 03:04 PM
I don't think there is even a debate worth having here. Dwight and Duncan were easily the best two centers in the league this past season. I don't like Dwight, but he's carries a bigger impact than any center out there. I think Duncan clearly had the better year, but Dwight was clearly number two. That said, I can understand those who would suggest Dwight had the best year. However, arguing for anybody other than Duncan and Dwight in the first two spots seems beyond reasonable to me.
If that's the case, then do you mind directly addressing my post? I think I laid out Marc's case pretty clearly (if not too briefly), and it's a very strong one.

I don't mind the argument that Dwight played through injury and was the 2nd best from 2nd half on (still debatable), or that he's currently the 2nd best going into another new system alongside a weak 4 or ill-placed strong 5, but to say it's beyond reasonable is... beyond reasonable.

Kobe or D'Antoni didn't make Dwight maintain his career low 49% from FT that he first showcased his final season in Orlando (a full 10% below his career average beforehand), and it's a very troubling new development for the guy (my guess being that this multi-year charade all caught up with him he's not 100% mentally anymore).

I'm definitely not willing to entirely dismiss the chemistry aspect (a massive negative) that Dwight has been bringing to teams lately, nor should we discount Marc's positive chemistry aspect, especially when we see it possibly manifested in things like Dwight's FT%.

If I have a choice I'm taking Marc and his elite defense, excellent passing, strong post moves and fantastic foul shooting (up to 85% now) - without the unnecessary distractions - 200 times out of 100.

Jumba
09-05-2013, 03:09 PM
Marc

mrblisterdundee
09-05-2013, 03:41 PM
I went with Marc Gasol here, based on his performance last season and how good he and the Grizzlies can be expected to play this season.
His stats don't pop out like Dwight Howard's, but he's more efficient, was a better defender, had a higher PER and contributed to significantly more wins, both defensively and offensively. Howard will likely overtake him this season, as he recovers from that surgery, but Gasol at this point should rightfully be considered the second-best after Tim Duncan, who should have probably won the Defensive Player of the Year award last season.

mrblisterdundee
09-05-2013, 03:46 PM
Dwight not being used properly wasn't his fault.

D'antoni misused Melo as well... and look how bad Gasol was.

The fact that Howard's #'s still were stellar shows just how good he is.

Then you factor in his defense, rebounding and shotblocking/altering... and I don't see how he's not the best C in the game.

Even on defense, he was about the third-best center in the league after Gasol and Duncan. I admit that D'Antoni's system is crap for Howard, but if he was the best, he'd still have the most defensive impact, which he didn't. I put his regression more on recovery from surgery than on D'Antoni, although I think he should be nothing more than an offensive coordinator for a more capable, well-rounded coach.

Shammyguy3
09-05-2013, 04:06 PM
I was starting to wonder if Asik would get any love on here. I don't think he's top 10 but it would be nice to see if any others on PSD think he's that good

I definitely have him top-10


If that's the case, then do you mind directly addressing my post? I think I laid out Marc's case pretty clearly (if not too briefly), and it's a very strong one.

I don't mind the argument that Dwight played through injury and was the 2nd best from 2nd half on (still debatable), or that he's currently the 2nd best going into another new system alongside a weak 4 or ill-placed strong 5, but to say it's beyond reasonable is... beyond reasonable.

Kobe or D'Antoni didn't make Dwight maintain his career low 49% from FT that he first showcased his final season in Orlando (a full 10% below his career average beforehand), and it's a very troubling new development for the guy (my guess being that this multi-year charade all caught up with him he's not 100% mentally anymore).

I'm definitely not willing to entirely dismiss the chemistry aspect (a massive negative) that Dwight has been bringing to teams lately, nor should we discount Marc's positive chemistry aspect, especially when we see it possibly manifested in things like Dwight's FT%.

If I have a choice I'm taking Marc and his elite defense, excellent passing, strong post moves and fantastic foul shooting (up to 85% now) - without the unnecessary distractions - 200 times out of 100.

All great points, but I still think Dwight slightly edges out Marc. Gasol will definitely be voted the 3rd best.


Even on defense, he was about the third-best center in the league after Gasol and Duncan. I admit that D'Antoni's system is crap for Howard, but if he was the best, he'd still have the most defensive impact, which he didn't. I put his regression more on recovery from surgery than on D'Antoni, although I think he should be nothing more than an offensive coordinator for a more capable, well-rounded coach.

I don't think Dwight was the 3rd best defensive center last year at all. I'd put Noah/Hibbert/Asik/Sanders ahead of Dwight last season as well on the defensive end without hesitation.

Ty_Lawson
09-05-2013, 04:13 PM
I had to vote for Joakim Smith man, with Joakim Noah defense and rebounding, and J.R Smith shooting ability, you can't miss with that pick!

JasonJohnHorn
09-05-2013, 04:35 PM
If that's the case, then do you mind directly addressing my post? I think I laid out Marc's case pretty clearly (if not too briefly), and it's a very strong one.

I don't mind the argument that Dwight played through injury and was the 2nd best from 2nd half on (still debatable), or that he's currently the 2nd best going into another new system alongside a weak 4 or ill-placed strong 5, but to say it's beyond reasonable is... beyond reasonable.

Kobe or D'Antoni didn't make Dwight maintain his career low 49% from FT that he first showcased his final season in Orlando (a full 10% below his career average beforehand), and it's a very troubling new development for the guy (my guess being that this multi-year charade all caught up with him he's not 100% mentally anymore).

I'm definitely not willing to entirely dismiss the chemistry aspect (a massive negative) that Dwight has been bringing to teams lately, nor should we discount Marc's positive chemistry aspect, especially when we see it possibly manifested in things like Dwight's FT%.

If I have a choice I'm taking Marc and his elite defense, excellent passing, strong post moves and fantastic foul shooting (up to 85% now) - without the unnecessary distractions - 200 times out of 100.


Dwight is a FAR superior rebounder to Gasol. Gasol grabbed 8 per36, Dwight grabbed 12.5 per36. That is a HUGE difference of 4.5 per game. That is 4 and a half more possession that Dwight got.

On offense, Dwight scored more with a MUCH higher percentage. Marc shot .494 from the floor, Dwight shot .578. That is 8% higher. Granted, Gasol takes more jump shots and is a much better FT shooter, but Dwight TS% is also higher. I will agree, Gasol is the more versatile offensive player, but Dwight's percentages are more efficient.

Gasol is CLEARLY the better ball handler, hands down. 4.1 assists to 1.4 with with 2 turnovers to Dwights 3? No question there.

When it comes to defense, I realize that Gasol won DPOY, but there were also three centers ahead of him in the All-Defensive team voting (Noah, Chandler and Duncan), so I don't think he is the consensus pick for best defender in the league, just among the voters for DPOY. Certainly NOT among the voters for the All-Defensive team. But looking at his defence next to Dwights, Dwight got more steals per game and more blocks per game with only slightly more fouls. So he created more fast break opportunities for his team than Gasol did. As for Dwight's defense, he is a 3X winner of the DPOY. There is no question that his defense is top notch. The advanced stats don't show much of a gap between them defensively, and much of the Lakers' issues with defense this past season were about 'Antoni's sets and NOT about Dwight.

Dwight also ranked 18th in PER this year: http://espn.go.com/nba/seasonleaders
Where as Marc ranked 35th. That is a pretty steep difference.

The NBA.com PER is a little different than ESPN: http://www.nba.com/statistics/player/Efficiency.jsp
Dwight ranked 14th there (even higher). Gasol 23.

Basically, while Gasol is a far more TALENTED player offensively, Dwight's efficiency is higher. Their defensive games aren't that far apart and Dwights defensive stats are better. Dwight is also CLEARLY a FAR superior rebounder, even if Gasol is a better play maker.

Dwights got more boards, more blocks, more steals, more points and a higher FG%/TS% and Gasol has more assists with few turnovers and higher FT%. Statistically, who's production would you rather have?

Dwight was slowed by his back injury, but his defense was still great last year. People just get bored of voting for the same guy and don't like voting for him likely because he is a drama queen, but he's still a better player. Gasol has more 'skill' and a higher basketball IQ for sure, and he is more mature, but he just cannot do what Dwight does.

5ass
09-05-2013, 04:42 PM
If love gets a pass for being injured and gets voted number 1 in the pf list, then dwight should go here.

tredigs
09-05-2013, 05:10 PM
Dwight is a FAR superior rebounder to Gasol. Gasol grabbed 8 per36, Dwight grabbed 12.5 per36. That is a HUGE difference of 4.5 per game. That is 4 and a half more possession that Dwight got.

On offense, Dwight scored more with a MUCH higher percentage. Marc shot .494 from the floor, Dwight shot .578. That is 8% higher. Granted, Gasol takes more jump shots and is a much better FT shooter, but Dwight TS% is also higher. I will agree, Gasol is the more versatile offensive player, but Dwight's percentages are more efficient.

Gasol is CLEARLY the better ball handler, hands down. 4.1 assists to 1.4 with with 2 turnovers to Dwights 3? No question there.

When it comes to defense, I realize that Gasol won DPOY, but there were also three centers ahead of him in the All-Defensive team voting (Noah, Chandler and Duncan), so I don't think he is the consensus pick for best defender in the league, just among the voters for DPOY. Certainly NOT among the voters for the All-Defensive team. But looking at his defence next to Dwights, Dwight got more steals per game and more blocks per game with only slightly more fouls. So he created more fast break opportunities for his team than Gasol did. As for Dwight's defense, he is a 3X winner of the DPOY. There is no question that his defense is top notch. The advanced stats don't show much of a gap between them defensively, and much of the Lakers' issues with defense this past season were about 'Antoni's sets and NOT about Dwight.

Dwight also ranked 18th in PER this year: http://espn.go.com/nba/seasonleaders
Where as Marc ranked 35th. That is a pretty steep difference.

The NBA.com PER is a little different than ESPN: http://www.nba.com/statistics/player/Efficiency.jsp
Dwight ranked 14th there (even higher). Gasol 23.

Basically, while Gasol is a far more TALENTED player offensively, Dwight's efficiency is higher. Their defensive games aren't that far apart and Dwights defensive stats are better. Dwight is also CLEARLY a FAR superior rebounder, even if Gasol is a better play maker.

Dwights got more boards, more blocks, more steals, more points and a higher FG%/TS% and Gasol has more assists with few turnovers and higher FT%. Statistically, who's production would you rather have?

Dwight was slowed by his back injury, but his defense was still great last year. People just get bored of voting for the same guy and don't like voting for him likely because he is a drama queen, but he's still a better player. Gasol has more 'skill' and a higher basketball IQ for sure, and he is more mature, but he just cannot do what Dwight does.

Not sure what PER stats you're looking at, but he finished behind Gasol, certainly not a "steep difference" ahead. Recheck your #'s. And yes Dwight did finish with a slightly higher TS%, as should be expected from a player who lives at the rim. As you alluded to, the ability to stretch the floor matters (for the teams overall offense) and being that Marc can do that, you definitely live with a slight drop (and still solid) TS% in comparison to Howard's - which is only 1.5% higher. Marc's offense allows him to shoot a mid-range, get deep in the post, pass at an elite level out of the post, and is a dead eye from the line. It's a much, much more versatile and reliable offensive game that goes well beyond simple scoring and TS%. The playmaking ability, the lack of turnovers, the versatility... you take that offensive production over Dwight's every time.

Defensiviely, they stole the ball at virtually the same rate while Dwight blocked an average of 0.7 more shots a game but fouled 0.5 more times a game. I also question how many of those blocks led to fast breaks rather than directly out of bounds for a new possession. A few years back they had a stat on this, and guess who finished DEAD LAST in the league in retaining possessions on their blocks? You guessed it, D. Howard. #1 that year? Duncan. I'd be very surprised if that has changed much, and it matters. Not all blocks are created equal - Ibaka had this same problem for a while, but he's gotten a bit better at it.
The potential points in a rebounding differential aren't enough to make up for the lost points in the added turnovers and playmaking differential between the two.
If it was just that people are "bored of voting dwight and don't like him" like I keep seeing here, then objective stats like RAPM, WP, PER, WinShares, Offensive Rating, etc wouldn't all be pointing to Marc having the better year. But, they do. He also anchored the #1 defense in the NBA? Dwight anchored the #20 defense (worse than before he arrived).

If love gets a pass for being injured and gets voted number 1 in the pf list, then dwight should go here.
He shouldn't have, but people weren't ready to anoint BG #1 PF by default. Duncan, and imo Gasol, are different stories. They're seasoned and proven.

Shammyguy3
09-05-2013, 06:14 PM
I honestly somewhat forgot about how great Marc was in terms of passing the ball. I think i want to change my vote to Gasol now... you convinced me tredigs (although I still hate PER and WS as a whole).

xxplayerxx23
09-05-2013, 06:22 PM
Timmy
Dwight
Marc
Horford
Lopez
Tyson
Noah
Hibbert
Would be the way I have it

Iggz53
09-05-2013, 06:28 PM
Defensively, Dwight was nowhere near elite this past year. At times, he was plain awful, not rotating or letting guys like Bonner score with ease over him inside. Chalk it up to injuries or whatever you want but like shammy said, there's not a doubt that he wasn't as good as some other centers defensively (like Gasol, Noah, Hibbert).

tredigs
09-05-2013, 07:27 PM
I honestly somewhat forgot about how great Marc was in terms of passing the ball. I think i want to change my vote to Gasol now... you convinced me tredigs (although I still hate PER and WS as a whole).

Woop woop. And yeah they're not the best, but it's part of a story.

JasonJohnHorn
09-05-2013, 08:13 PM
Not sure what PER stats you're looking at, but he finished behind Gasol, certainly not a "steep difference" ahead. Recheck your #'s.

There is more than one way to calculate PER. I went with ESPN and NBA.com, two of the most popular sites that deal with basketball. Both of their PER calculations have Howard ahead of Gasol and I provided links. You did not.



And yes Dwight did finish with a slightly higher TS%, as should be expected from a player who lives at the rim. As you alluded to, the ability to stretch the floor matters (for the teams overall offense) and being that Marc can do that, you definitely live with a slight drop (and still solid) TS% in comparison to Howard's - which is only 1.5% higher. Marc's offense allows him to shoot a mid-range, get deep in the post, pass at an elite level out of the post, and is a dead eye from the line. It's a much, much more versatile and reliable offensive game that goes well beyond simple scoring and TS%. The playmaking ability, the lack of turnovers, the versatility... you take that offensive production over Dwight's every time.

I mentioned all this myself. Offensively Gasol is more diverse. Yes. But Dwight is more efficient. You don't have to run plays for Dwight and he will still get you as many points a game as Gasol gets from offensive rebounds and cutting to the basket when defenses break down. He's great at that. I agree, Gasol is better offensively, but we are talking about a C that averages 14 point a game next to one who averages almost 20.


Defensiviely, they stole the ball at virtually the same rate while Dwight blocked an average of 0.7 more shots a game but fouled 0.5 more times a game.

Yes, their steals numbers were close to even, but Dwight got 1.1. You say that is a small margin, but when you are talking about steals, that is a lot. It is 10% more. If Gasol was doing anything at a rate of 10% higher than Dwight you would certainly bring it up to support your argument.



I also question how many of those blocks led to fast breaks rather than directly out of bounds for a new possession. A few years back they had a stat on this, and guess who finished DEAD LAST in the league in retaining possessions on their blocks? You guessed it, D. Howard. #1 that year? Duncan. I'd be very surprised if that has changed much, and it matters. Not all blocks are created equal - Ibaka had this same problem for a while, but he's gotten a bit better at it.

We need number to dissect this. Firstly, the guy you say was better is Duncan, and I agree that Duncan is better than Dwight. What were Gasol's numbers? What were Dwights? Has Dwight improved on this? I dunno... Gasol may very well be better in this respect, but we don't have the numbers to decide one way or the other.


The potential points in a rebounding differential aren't enough to make up for the lost points in the added turnovers and playmaking differential between the two.
If it was just that people are "bored of voting dwight and don't like him" like I keep seeing here, then objective stats like RAPM, WP, PER, WinShares, Offensive Rating, etc wouldn't all be pointing to Marc having the better year. But, they do.

These numbers can help to indicate a players impact, but they are also flawed. LAL had an awful coach, so the team's poor performance is going to hurt these numbers for the players on the team


He also anchored the #1 defense in the NBA? Dwight anchored the #20 defense (worse than before he arrived).

Again, this is in large part due to coaching, but also player personal. Gasol was playing with Tony Allen (second runner up for the DPOY award and All-Defensive first team) Tashawn Prince (who has made 4 All-defensive teams) and Mike Conley who got more steals than anybody in the league this year. They also had a great defensive coach. The team's defense is GREAT ALL AROUND! It's not like Chandler coming to NY and turning things around by himself. Gasol plays on a great defensive team. The Lakers have the WORST defensive coach in the league. The WORST defensive point guard in the league, an injured Pau Gasol, an injured MWP... what did Dwight have to work with? He was the only thing stopping teams from averaging 110 points against the Lakers this year.

Dwight has draw backs, namely his turnovers and limited offensive game, but he is still an elite defender, the best rebounder in the league, and a very efficient scorer.

tredigs
09-05-2013, 08:28 PM
Dwight scored close to 20 points per game (despite scoring only 17) and his faults are that of his coach, also NBA and ESPN standard efficiency stats are PER, not what is actually PER

edit: I forgot - over the course of an entire season, Dwight accrued 4 more steals than Marc. This is a big deal and deserves further mention. Also did I mention Dwights coach is Antoni and Kobe yells a lot?

Gotchya. Back to football.

Bruno
09-05-2013, 09:47 PM
Gasol for me. Dwight is 3rd on my list

x2. we see eye to eye here as we do most of the time.

Bruno
09-05-2013, 09:49 PM
Led the league in rebounding, 58% FG, 2.4bpg, 17.1ppg...

He's set the bar pretty high if people want to act like he had a bad year. If anyone else had those numbers they'd go #1... though I do think Duncan deserves the #1 this year.

howard didn't even crack 20.0 in PER. he posted a WS/48 that was on par with his rookie season. he didn't have a good year by any stretch of the imagination and the only reason he deserves any credit is because he played through injury. he didn't have a good year and he collapsed mentally in the post-season. he had an opportunity to be a leader and he got himself embarrassed and ejected.

Gasol blew out howard defensively, that's why he go my vote.

nycericanguy
09-05-2013, 09:51 PM
howard didn't even crack 20.0 in PER. he posted a WS/48 that was on par with his rookie season. he didn't have a good year by any stretch of the imagination and the only reason he deserves any credit is because he played through injury. he didn't have a good year and he collapsed mentally in the post-season. he had an opportunity to be a leader and he got himself embarrassed and ejected.

Gasol blew out howard defensively, that's why he go my vote.

who cares? is this the standard now? Neither did Gasol...

Bruno
09-05-2013, 09:52 PM
jason johns stats on PER are wrong, Marc beat out Howard marginally- i dont know what he was looking at.

basketball-reference.

Bruno
09-05-2013, 09:52 PM
who cares? is this the standard now? Neither did Gasol...

its not a standard but it can be used when you're writing about how great his counting numbers are.

Bruno
09-05-2013, 09:53 PM
and Gasol blew Howard out in WS/48.

Bruno
09-05-2013, 09:54 PM
I'll go with the DPOY and better offensive player here. Marc.

x2

Bruno
09-05-2013, 09:57 PM
i dont understand how this diva is blowing out the better offensive player and the DPOY :confused:

JasonJohnHorn
09-05-2013, 11:36 PM
Gotchya. Back to football.

lol

love it!

Seriously... the steals... reducing it to '4 more' is simplifying it and taking it out of context.

Dwight played fewer games and averaged fewer minutes, so yeah, the '4 steals' works out to 10% more steals in the per36 averages.

As for the coach, I brought that up because YOU brought up the fact that "Gasol anchored the best defensive team in the league". Dwight has no more control over how good his team is on defense than any other individual player. He makes them better, but you give Gasol credit when its the GM that brought in top notch defenders at every position save PF, where as Dwight didn't have those tools to work with in LAL. And faulting Dwight for his team's defense when it's the coach's fault isn't fair.

And yeah... he averaged 17 points, but he was as the fourth option on the team (three guys got more shots per game than Howard) where as Gasol was the third option after Gay left and got far fewer points than Dwight. There is a significant disparity between Dwight and Gasol in scoring in favour fo Dwight, and a VERY significant disparity in rebounds in favour of Dwight.

JasonJohnHorn
09-05-2013, 11:38 PM
jason johns stats on PER are wrong, Marc beat out Howard marginally- i dont know what he was looking at.

basketball-reference.

He was probably looking as ESPN and NBA.com as per the links he posted.

tredigs
09-06-2013, 12:24 AM
lol

love it!

Seriously... the steals... reducing it to '4 more' is simplifying it and taking it out of context.

Dwight played fewer games and averaged fewer minutes, so yeah, the '4 steals' works out to 10% more steals in the per36 averages.

As for the coach, I brought that up because YOU brought up the fact that "Gasol anchored the best defensive team in the league". Dwight has no more control over how good his team is on defense than any other individual player. He makes them better, but you give Gasol credit when its the GM that brought in top notch defenders at every position save PF, where as Dwight didn't have those tools to work with in LAL. And faulting Dwight for his team's defense when it's the coach's fault isn't fair.

And yeah... he averaged 17 points, but he was as the fourth option on the team (three guys got more shots per game than Howard) where as Gasol was the third option after Gay left and got far fewer points than Dwight. There is a significant disparity between Dwight and Gasol in scoring in favour fo Dwight, and a VERY significant disparity in rebounds in favour of Dwight.

Sigh - this is getting way too tiresome. A "10% steals advantage" works out to 1 steal every ten games. It means nothing. Not all "10%'s" are created equal. Stop being annoying.

And while I don't disagree that the Lakers had a weak D outside of Dwight (and will be abysmal this season), the fact of the matter is that he was not enough to even make them an average defense. And that says something about your impact when you're thought of as the preeminent defender of your generation and someone thought to be capable of transcendent defense. Simply put - post surgery - he wasn't.

There's a disparity in scoring in favor of Dwight, not in created offense. Once you accept the difference there you can probably begin to accept why Marc is the better offensive player. Period.


He was probably looking as ESPN and NBA.com as per the links he posted.

No, bud, you weren't linking PER (ironically a stat that an ESPN personnel member created and is located ON THEIR SITE - as well as on bbref), I was just making fun of the fact that you didn't know what you were talking about.

kdspurman
09-06-2013, 09:46 AM
i dont understand how this diva is blowing out the better offensive player and the DPOY :confused:

Especially if you factor in post season play between the 2, I would think Gasol was the obvious answer here. Can't say I'm too surprised at more people voting for Howard though..

ManRam
09-06-2013, 11:45 AM
I definitely think Gasol had the better year...

I just also definitely think Howard is still the better player.

JasonJohnHorn
09-06-2013, 11:54 AM
Sigh - this is getting way too tiresome. A "10% steals advantage" works out to 1 steal every ten games. It means nothing. Not all "10%'s" are created equal. Stop being annoying.

And while I don't disagree that the Lakers had a weak D outside of Dwight (and will be abysmal this season), the fact of the matter is that he was not enough to even make them an average defense. And that says something about your impact when you're thought of as the preeminent defender of your generation and someone thought to be capable of transcendent defense. Simply put - post surgery - he wasn't.

There's a disparity in scoring in favor of Dwight, not in created offense. Once you accept the difference there you can probably begin to accept why Marc is the better offensive player. Period.



No, bud, you weren't linking PER (ironically a stat that an ESPN personnel member created and is located ON THEIR SITE - as well as on bbref), I was just making fun of the fact that you didn't know what you were talking about.

First of all... an advantage is an advantage. My point was that Dwight has more steals and more blocks. Period. And he does. His defensive stats are better. He also has a better blocks-to-fouls ratio.

You are right... I posted the wrong link to the ESPN PER and Gasol is slightly ahead of Dwight there: http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics
But the NBA.com PER has Dwight ahead of Gasol. Point being, that is a wash.

And I NEVER said that Dwight was a more talented offensive player, merely that he was a more efficient scorer. Yes, Gasol is a better shooter with more range and better post moves. I agree with that 100%. But Dwight, though limited, still is more efficient and that can't simply be cast aside. He gets more points on a higher percentage. You get two guys who take about the same amount of FGs in a game (10 and change) and one guy scores 3 more points a game? That is a huge difference. Gasol took 869 FG last season. Dwight took 813. Gasol came away with 1,127 points, Dwight came away with 1, 296. You can say "he played closer to the basket", but at the end of the day Dwight got more points on less shots... significantly more points on significantly less shots.

Dwight also drew more fouls. Dwight went to the line 721 times to Gasol's 316 (which does account for part of the point differential). But this is another aspect of Dwight's game that is key. He draws more fouls. He gets himself to the line more and get his team shooting free-throws via team fouls quicker than Gasol does. That is even more points on the board.

Negating Dwight's offensive impact by stating "he plays close to the rim" is EXTREMELY unfair. Tyson Chandler "plays close to the rim" and he doesn't score as much as Dwight. Shaq played close to the rim as well, and wasn't nearly as good a shooter as Gasol, but who would you rather have in the post on offense: Shaq or Gasol?

At the end of the day, the team with the most points wins. Dwight got his team more points, not only in the points he scored, but by getting his team to the line by drawing fouls and using up the limit.

Dwight gets more points.
Dwight gets more rebounds.
Dwight gets more blocks.
Dwight gets more steals.
Dwight draws more fouls.
Dwight has a higher FG%
Dwight has a higher TS%
Dwight is at least as good a defender.
Dwight has a better blocks-to-fouls ratio.
Dwight is more athletic.

Gasol gets more assists.
Gasol gets less turnovers.
Gasol has a high FT%
Gasol is more skilled.
Gasol has a higher basketball IQ.


Who is better? Am I missing something here? Yes. Gasol is more skilled. If that's what you are arguing, then I agree with you. Who has a bigger impact on the floor? I think the evidence is pretty clear that it's Dwight.

Eagles4Lyfe
09-06-2013, 02:23 PM
I definitely think Gasol had the better year...

I just also definitely think Howard is still the better player.

Everyone keeps going back to this.
This is all based on a name repuation this guy has built over the course of his career, but unlike the other elite stars, he hasn't improved at his weaknesses at all.

This guy only is seen as god because he plays a premium position and doesn't get nearly as criticized as a Lebron used to for being a **** shooter.
Everyone always found ways to find a fault in Lebron (me being one since I'm a Kobephile), but he's proved us haters wrong year in a nd year out.

Dwight most definitely has not and should get more negative flack but doesn't, which is unfair IMO to the other great players, such as Bron, Durant, Melo, CP3..

ManRam
09-06-2013, 03:15 PM
Everyone keeps going back to this.
This is all based on a name repuation this guy has built over the course of his career, but unlike the other elite stars, he hasn't improved at his weaknesses at all.

This guy only is seen as god because he plays a premium position and doesn't get nearly as criticized as a Lebron used to for being a **** shooter.
Everyone always found ways to find a fault in Lebron (me being one since I'm a Kobephile), but he's proved us haters wrong year in a nd year out.

Dwight most definitely has not and should get more negative flack but doesn't, which is unfair IMO to the other great players, such as Bron, Durant, Melo, CP3..

Compared to when? Dwight's made huge strides since he's entered the league. The strides he made before the 2010-11 season were amazing. The Dwight that entered that season was an obvious upgrade over the Dwight from the season before...and not even close. I used to criticize the hell out of him, ask around...but he won me over after the work and improvement he made that offseason and to an extent the one after.

It didn't show last year, but I'm willing to assume that his one tumultuous year in LA is the outlier compared to his last ~3 years in Orlando.

In 2010-2011 he was the most game-changing player in the league, period. Amazing how quickly people are willing to forget this. He was at worst the second best player in the NBA (behind LeBron). Yes, he has flaws, but his absolutely other-worldly defense (as great as Marc was last year, his impact didn't touch Dwight's in Orlando) and athleticism more than make up for it. His impact on those Orlando teams was on a level that only LeBron could duplicate.

We'll see. Come next year I'm sure he'll be back on top.


I only now am defending him, as I was later on last season even when he was still a Laker, because of how carried away people got. He has his problems...lots of them, but its clouding people's opinion on his ability to play basketball way too much

Eagles4Lyfe
09-06-2013, 03:28 PM
Compared to when? Dwight's made huge strides since he's entered the league. The strides he made before the 2010-11 season were amazing. The Dwight that entered that season was an obvious upgrade over the Dwight from the season before...and not even close. I used to criticize the hell out of him, ask around...but he won me over after the work and improvement he made that offseason and to an extent the one after.

It didn't show last year, but I'm willing to assume that his one tumultuous year in LA is the outlier compared to his last ~3 years in Orlando.

In 2010-2011 he was the most game-changing player in the league, period. Amazing how quickly people are willing to forget this. He was at worst the second best player in the NBA (behind LeBron). Yes, he has flaws, but his absolutely other-worldly defense (as great as Marc was last year, his impact didn't touch Dwight's in Orlando) and athleticism more than make up for it. His impact on those Orlando teams was on a level that only LeBron could duplicate.

We'll see. Come next year I'm sure he'll be back on top.


I only now am defending him, as I was later on last season even when he was still a Laker, because of how carried away people got. He has his problems...lots of them, but its clouding people's opinion on his ability to play basketball way too much

That's my point, everyone keeps remembering this exact thing. No doubt he was and I don't disagree, the guy was an amazing defensive presence and could've/should've been an amazing offensive force in this league.

There is no excuse for a guy like Dwight to not have a mini jumper nor improve his FT's when since he entered the league teams have been using the hack a Dwight. Look at Duncan this year, a known below average FT shooter throughout his career, suddenly had a good year shooting FT's. If that guy at that age can work on it and get better at it, why can't this guy?
Dwight with the body he has, wingspan he has and quickness he has, could be such a dominating offensive force. I'm saying dude can legitimately be a top 2-3 player year in and year out, without a shadow of a doubt in my mind.

But again where is the offense? Where is the improvements shooting anywhere? How many big men has he worked with on his career?

I used to be a huge Dwight fan, loved this guys game, but he's more focused on other agendas rather than improving his game. I mean he's still fairly young I guess to suddenly this year become a beast. He's on the perfect team to do so with an amazing offensive player in Harden already, so imagine if he breaks out.

Dwight in Orlando early in his years, was indescribably amazing, its hard to describe his dominance in words. But that kinda impacts suddenly disappeared man because he focuses on the stupidest of stuff.
I'm just as frustrated as you are as a fan of his game for being stagnant.

Chronz
09-06-2013, 05:07 PM
LOL I never thought of it this way, would Dwight have been better served by being injured and not playing much? Would you guys give him the benefit of the doubt if he didn't play as opposed to struggling with injuries?

tredigs
09-06-2013, 05:36 PM
We're not going to pretend like Dwight was the only one dealing with injury though, are we? If that's the case, I want to revote and get Curry up to that #2 PG slot for his 2nd half.

Also, we should probably explore at what point being a bad teammate bites into your personal production (I'm looking at the guy who didn't want to run the pnr with Nash).

Chronz
09-06-2013, 05:54 PM
We're not going to pretend like Dwight was the only one dealing with injury though, are we? If that's the case, I want to revote and get Curry up to that #2 PG slot for his 2nd half.
Would first place go to Deron? And I dont buy any injury being as significant to his impact as Dwight's was to his. Unless you want to make the case that Curry is more reliant on his athletic prowess..... didn't think so.


Also, we should probably explore at what point being a bad teammate bites into your personal production (I'm looking at the guy who didn't want to run the pnr with Nash).
So would he have been looked at as a better teammate if he didn't put his team first by playing hurt?

tredigs
09-06-2013, 06:44 PM
Would first place go to Deron? And I dont buy any injury being as significant to his impact as Dwight's was to his. Unless you want to make the case that Curry is more reliant on his athletic prowess..... didn't think so.


So would he have been looked at as a better teammate if he didn't put his team first by playing hurt?

Nah, 25/4/7 on 46/45/91 still one-ups 21/3/8 on 47/43/86. I guess Curry could go 1, Deron 2 in that scenario.

And Curry's pretty reliant on his athleticism to free himself up. Spurs locking him up after his ankle got tore up in game 3 wasn't purely defensive gameplanning there. As is Dwight. As is Noah in dealing with debilitating planter fasc each year.

Is it normal for Steve Nash to make a public comment about a teammate not wanting to play within the teams style? Do you think he was doing it just to pile on the innumerable cases of Dwight being a nuisance over the past 2 seasons? Is there any argument over who has a higher chance of causing internal turmoil between Marc and Dwight? Once we reach reason #14, I can't help but imagine it goes a little deeper than media charade, can you?

cmellofan15
09-06-2013, 07:10 PM
Wait so we are going off of last season in this one? Glad we can have a consistent criteria :laugh2:

Chronz
09-06-2013, 07:51 PM
Nah, 25/4/7 on 46/45/91 still one-ups 21/3/8 on 47/43/86. I guess Curry could go 1, Deron 2 in that scenario.
2nd half of the season might be too literal for Deron, I think it was more of an after the AS break type of resurgence but Im assuming you're checking out the numbers from after the 41 game mark. In which case you end up with:

Curry: 28.0 Usage / 116 ORTG - 33.8Ast% - 5.8TRB%
Deron: 25.7 Usage / 123 ORTG - 38.7Ast% - 4.3TRB%

Curry wins the usage war, Deron was more efficient. Didn't look up team records but I doubt its much different.
Quick calculation tells me thats a 19.1 GameScore for Curry vs 16.7 for Deron but it is a usage drivven stat and doesn't account for pace factor. By WinScore its 6.9 Curry vs 6.1 for Deron. I wonder what a WS based score would say.


If you multiple usage by efficiency, you get this:
Curry: .325
Deron: .316

Seems no matter the barometer he comes out on top. Pace of play might edge it closer but yea, Curry's got the numbers. Sorry for not believing you .... just felt like wasting time.


And Curry's pretty reliant on his athleticism to free himself up. Spurs locking him up after his ankle got tore up in game 3 wasn't purely defensive gameplanning there. As is Dwight. As is Noah in dealing with debilitating planter fasc each year.
Curry was hobbled last year, production barely nudged.


Is it normal for Steve Nash to make a public comment about a teammate not wanting to play within the teams style? Do you think he was doing it just to pile on the innumerable cases of Dwight being a nuisance over the past 2 seasons? Is there any argument over who has a higher chance of causing internal turmoil between Marc and Dwight? Once we reach reason #14, I can't help but imagine it goes a little deeper than media charade, can you?
Those franchises failed him tho, and Nash wasn't beating his man off the PnR as often tbh. Im sure Marc is more of a team player, thats not what Im debating. Frankly thats only a distinguishing factor now that the production levels aren't far off, Dwight went #1 in seasons past despite being the same teammate. If anything, LA represents a step up for him, it just got ugly because it was a horrible fit.

tredigs
09-06-2013, 08:00 PM
Curry was hobbled last year, production barely nudged.


Well, scoring went up 25% in the 2nd half as well as assists (and Usage). He definitely looked better, and he definitely looked hampered to close out the Spurs series. He relies on his ball handling but also sprinting around tight corners and lunge fakes with the ball to get loose, so I really do think he's 75% the player he can be when that ankles acting up.


Those franchises failed him tho, and Nash wasn't beating his man off the PnR as often tbh. Im sure Marc is more of a team player, thats not what Im debating. Frankly thats only a distinguishing factor now that the production levels aren't far off, Dwight went #1 in seasons past despite being the same teammate. If anything, LA represents a step up for him, it just got ugly because it was a horrible fit.
I'd accept that as a fair comment and I'll be done with the Dwight talk on my end. I could be going a bit far in judgement on him as he's easily my least favorite star player in the league.

Chronz
09-06-2013, 08:09 PM
Lakers offense ran better without him, its sad when a "superstar" does this to a team.

Durant is hype
09-07-2013, 01:07 AM
Tyson Chandler? http://www.thenbageek.com/players/368-tyson-chandler

tredigs
09-07-2013, 01:45 AM
Tyson Chandler? http://www.thenbageek.com/players/368-tyson-chandler

This s/n must get more and more embarrassing.

ManRam
09-07-2013, 10:56 AM
That's my point, everyone keeps remembering this exact thing. No doubt he was and I don't disagree, the guy was an amazing defensive presence and could've/should've been an amazing offensive force in this league.

There is no excuse for a guy like Dwight to not have a mini jumper nor improve his FT's when since he entered the league teams have been using the hack a Dwight. Look at Duncan this year, a known below average FT shooter throughout his career, suddenly had a good year shooting FT's. If that guy at that age can work on it and get better at it, why can't this guy?
Dwight with the body he has, wingspan he has and quickness he has, could be such a dominating offensive force. I'm saying dude can legitimately be a top 2-3 player year in and year out, without a shadow of a doubt in my mind.

But again where is the offense? Where is the improvements shooting anywhere? How many big men has he worked with on his career?

I used to be a huge Dwight fan, loved this guys game, but he's more focused on other agendas rather than improving his game. I mean he's still fairly young I guess to suddenly this year become a beast. He's on the perfect team to do so with an amazing offensive player in Harden already, so imagine if he breaks out.

Dwight in Orlando early in his years, was indescribably amazing, its hard to describe his dominance in words. But that kinda impacts suddenly disappeared man because he focuses on the stupidest of stuff.
I'm just as frustrated as you are as a fan of his game for being stagnant.

Dwight has worked hard at developing that game. He tried to emulate the TD bank shot at the start of the 2010-11 season, and it just didn't work. He's worked extensively in the offseasons on working on his post game...to a mixture of success. He's worked hard at this stuff, he just doesn't naturally have the ability. He did make strides though and did improve tremendously later in his Orlando career. People look at him juxtaposed with Kobe and act like he doesn't work on his game, but he put in work regularly in the offseason when he was in Orlando, and there was a 2-3 year stretch there where you could see the obvious improvement from Dwight from season to season. Let's not forget, he didn't have the time to work on anything before last season because he had major back surgery.

We can sit here and blame him for not being Hakeem. We can blast him for not being like Zach Randolph who has the ability to take ****** shots, but thus shoots under 50%. Whatever. He's not a finesse player. But you know what, I'll take the guy who knows his limitations offensively and scores by hustling and being more athletic than anyone else. I'll take the guy that shoots 60% on 14 shots a game. Maybe he adds a mini jumper and becomes more "go-to", and could get that number up to 16 or 17, but that's gonna hurt his efficiency a ton. I'm content with the career 60% TS% and 58% eFG%. He doesn't do it with finesse, but he got it done perfectly fine in Orlando. I always bashed him for not being a true go-to scorer, but it never was a big of an issue as I felt. Even as limited as he is offensively, he still commands a ton of attention making everyone else's lives easier on offense.. His impact on the game as a whole is too significant for me to care that he can't hit a 15 footer. :shrug: That never really hurt us in Orlando.

Dwight has his flaws...but those flaws haven't stopped him from being a top 3 player in this league before. We can harp on them all you want, but not being the perfect player doesn't magically make him less than what he is. And what he is, when healthy and not playing with Kobe and MDA, is a much better player than people now believe he is.


My opinion banks on him being able to revert back to his Orlando ways. If he doesn't, and he truly only could succeed in that specific Orlando system then yeah, I'll start thinking that last year wasn't a fluke. But until that happens Dwight is still more like the Orlando Dwight than the LA Dwight :shrug: One year doesn't change what he truly was.

If he's happy, he'll be fine. It sucks that he wasn't happy in the cesspool/circus that is LA, but can he wasn't. So be it.

And again, I'll have to declare that I'm bowing out. I HATE defending him, but I truly think people are getting carried away with their Dwight hate, and I'm not a person who lets emotions cloud my opinions.

Durant is hype
09-07-2013, 12:48 PM
This s/n must get more and more embarrassing.

Hey man I've had it since 07,people were laughing then and their laughing now. The difference is, at least it's the truth now.

tredigs
09-07-2013, 12:56 PM
Hey man I've had it since 07,people were laughing then and their laughing now. The difference is, at least it's the truth now.

Now that he's a perennial MVP candidate who puts up some of the best advanced stats of the decade while constantly improving his game and consistently killing it in the playoffs he's... hype? Did you want him to be GOAT?

In a perfect world, how is he rated to you? Below Melo outside the top 10?

Durant is hype
09-07-2013, 01:09 PM
Now that he's a perennial MVP candidate who puts up some of the best advanced stats of the decade while constantly improving his game and consistently killing it in the playoffs he's... hype? Did you want him to be GOAT?

In a perfect world, how is he rated to you? Below Melo outside the top 10?

Oh no you're misunderstanding. I meant "hype",in the context of, he's already great player.

I would have him ranked the second best player based on last season.

tredigs
09-07-2013, 01:12 PM
Oh no you're misunderstanding. I meant "hype",in the context of, he's already great player.

I would have him ranked the second best player based on last season.

Oh my bad I see. Agreed, 2 or 3 for me. #1 upside in a couple years.

FlashBolt
09-08-2013, 12:13 AM
I can't believe Dwight only won 70% of the votes. It should've been unanimous or at least 90%. TD has a case but it's silly to knock Dwight off 30%.

tredigs
09-08-2013, 02:25 AM
I can't believe Dwight only won 70% of the votes. It should've been unanimous or at least 90%. TD has a case but it's silly to knock Dwight off 30%.

Solid argument Sep 2013.