PDA

View Full Version : Yes, OKC should not have traded Harden, BUT...



poleandreel
09-04-2013, 12:44 PM
Everyone needs to stop writing them off and remember that Jeremy Lamb is still on this team.

I have been on this site long enough to remember when people were calling James Harden a bust in his rookie season.

Hardens rookie stats:
9.9/3/1.8 on 40% shooting in 23 minutes

Hardens summer league stats from his rookie season:
14/3/3 on 48% shooting
http://www.nba.com/summerleague2009/statistics/index.jsp

Jeremy Lamb also had a disappointing rookie year, primarily because he played for a contender who had plenty of guard options in Thabo Sefalosha and Kevin Martin.

If you look at his d-league stats, which obviously aren't a be all indicator, we see that he isn't a bad player, or even one without potential.

2012-2013 D-league stats
20/5/2 on 49% shooting and 88% from the line.

Those are pretty strong stats, and the kid was born in 1992 and fits directly into OKC's consistent strategy. He's a floor spacer for Durant and Westbrook who doesn't need the ball to be effective. He has a high FT% as is the case with everyone on OKC so when the game is on the line, he is not a disadvantage.

Lamb is also the prototypical SG height (6' 5'') and weight (180 lbs), the same weight Tmac and kobe were when they entered the league. His long arms make him an active defender as well.

Then we have this years summer league stats for Lamb:
19/4/3 on 40% shooting
http://www.nba.com/summerleague/2013/statistics/orlando/index.html

Again, these are more indicative of his ability than his possible future success, but they still show his promise.

Even Harden's 2nd season stats were pretty below average/ordinary:
12/3/2 on 43% shooting


Then you also have the forgotten man: Reggie Jackson. He played extremely well in the playoffs and was definitely not a reason for getting eliminated. His summer stats are also encouraging:

20/3/3 on 54% shooting
http://www.nba.com/summerleague/2013/statistics/orlando/index.html


So as you can see, Lamb still has as much potential as any young player in the league. He has not had a chance to play in the NBA but he has succeeded at every level. If I remember correctly, he was a projected top 7 player who dropped in the draft because of work/dedication concerns. I'm sure those are no longer relevant considering Durant and Westy would not let that happen. Everyone on the team is known for working hard and improving (Westy, KD, Ibaka, even perkins who sucks still plays and works hard).

Was the trade a bad decision? Yes, but the jury is still out Lamb and he certainly has the potential to put up the same stats that Harden did (16/3/3 on 48% shooting). You forget that Harden was never going to be the guy he is not in OKC. We just didn't need it. Jackson can handle the ball in the 2nd unit, thereby, making Lamb a primary scorer. Again, we don't need Hardens playmaking with the growth of Jackson.

Even more so, Lamb could end up being an all star ala Rip Hamilton in his heyday. There is definitely still a wait an see on this trade.

beasted86
09-04-2013, 01:12 PM
I think I saw one summer league game, I wasn't impressed. Lamb has hops and a decent first step, but his outside shooting is shaky as ever, and he doesn't have good ball handling or passing skills. The difference is Harden always had those things even coming into the league, and is way stronger. Lamb needs to bulk up while at the same time work on his shooting and play-making. That will be hard on a 2nd year player.

It also doesn't help that OKC doesn't have any prototypical PGs on the roster. Both Westbrook and Jackson are combo guards with play making ability, but neither will really be able to spoon feed Lamb easy buckets to help him get going.

I'm not saying he will always be a scrub or his ceiling is a role player, its just that Lamb is still some time away from being the 3rd option on a contender. I actually see Reggie Jackson stepping into that role way more than Lamb will next year. OKC traded a franchise player for a guy that may only be able to help you 2-3 years from now.

RCarlson85
09-04-2013, 01:53 PM
I don't think having Lamb turn out to maybe be as good as Rip will make the trade OK. Rip was never the top shooting guard in the league. A lot of people already view Harden as the top SG in the league after only 1 season on his own. He's only going to get better too. Still a bad trade for OKC and one that could very well alter the course of their franchise. Just think if OKC ends up not winning a championship before Durant's contract ends and then he leaves. If they keep Harden I don't see why they don't make it out of the West again last year and potentially for years to come.

Rockice_8
09-04-2013, 02:32 PM
There is no but in this scenario. They screwed up big time, no way to sugar coat that with a "but Lamb played well in the DL."

alexander_37
09-04-2013, 02:35 PM
Lamb is a 6th man at the very best. Harden may not have crazy athleticism or " hops" but he has a deadly first step and the most refined old man game in the league.

tr3ymill3r
09-04-2013, 03:38 PM
I still think that they could have and should have dealt Ibaka and Harden for Dwight and Westbrook and Green for CP3. Both teams would have done those deals at the time, maybe a pick would have needed to be added in, but having CP3, KD & D12 as a big 3 is better than what anybody else could put together unless it was LeBron, LeBron and LeBron.

IndyRealist
09-04-2013, 04:17 PM
The problem is that they traded a top 3 SG for a rookie (and Kevin Martin, but he didn't stick around).

Yes, rookie contracts are a great deal financially, and Lamb has potential. But he doesn't have the potential to be a top 3 SG. In terms of productivity he's a couple of steps down. And max deal guys generally produce more than they can be paid for, because of the max salary (and no one really thinks Harden got overpaid at this point, right?) Given that you can only have 5 players on the floor at the same time, getting as many top players as you can is a good strategy (right, Miami?)

2-ONE-5
09-04-2013, 04:28 PM
u cant compare what Harden in early in his carrer to Lamb it doesnt work that way same goes for comparing Lambs body type to T-MAc and Kobe they dont automatically get built the same way nor do they have simil;ar frames to get bigger in the first place. Lamb is just going to be catch and shoot guy at best.

MonroeFAN
09-04-2013, 04:30 PM
Jeremy Lamb sucks.

?

slaker619
09-04-2013, 04:32 PM
They should've let him start and get the ball more it was there fault for making him into a 6th man, cause he can only do so much at the position

Mr.ATLHawks
09-04-2013, 04:51 PM
Everyone needs to stop writing them off and remember that Jeremy Lamb is still on this team.

I have been on this site long enough to remember when people were calling James Harden a bust in his rookie season.

Hardens rookie stats:
9.9/3/1.8 on 40% shooting in 23 minutes

Hardens summer league stats from his rookie season:
14/3/3 on 48% shooting
http://www.nba.com/summerleague2009/statistics/index.jsp

Jeremy Lamb also had a disappointing rookie year, primarily because he played for a contender who had plenty of guard options in Thabo Sefalosha and Kevin Martin.

If you look at his d-league stats, which obviously aren't a be all indicator, we see that he isn't a bad player, or even one without potential.

2012-2013 D-league stats
20/5/2 on 49% shooting and 88% from the line.

Those are pretty strong stats, and the kid was born in 1992 and fits directly into OKC's consistent strategy. He's a floor spacer for Durant and Westbrook who doesn't need the ball to be effective. He has a high FT% as is the case with everyone on OKC so when the game is on the line, he is not a disadvantage.

Lamb is also the prototypical SG height (6' 5'') and weight (180 lbs), the same weight Tmac and kobe were when they entered the league. His long arms make him an active defender as well.

Then we have this years summer league stats for Lamb:
19/4/3 on 40% shooting
http://www.nba.com/summerleague/2013/statistics/orlando/index.html

Again, these are more indicative of his ability than his possible future success, but they still show his promise.

Even Harden's 2nd season stats were pretty below average/ordinary:
12/3/2 on 43% shooting


Then you also have the forgotten man: Reggie Jackson. He played extremely well in the playoffs and was definitely not a reason for getting eliminated. His summer stats are also encouraging:

20/3/3 on 54% shooting
http://www.nba.com/summerleague/2013/statistics/orlando/index.html


So as you can see, Lamb still has as much potential as any young player in the league. He has not had a chance to play in the NBA but he has succeeded at every level. If I remember correctly, he was a projected top 7 player who dropped in the draft because of work/dedication concerns. I'm sure those are no longer relevant considering Durant and Westy would not let that happen. Everyone on the team is known for working hard and improving (Westy, KD, Ibaka, even perkins who sucks still plays and works hard).

Was the trade a bad decision? Yes, but the jury is still out Lamb and he certainly has the potential to put up the same stats that Harden did (16/3/3 on 48% shooting). You forget that Harden was never going to be the guy he is not in OKC. We just didn't need it. Jackson can handle the ball in the 2nd unit, thereby, making Lamb a primary scorer. Again, we don't need Hardens playmaking with the growth of Jackson.

Even more so, Lamb could end up being an all star ala Rip Hamilton in his heyday. There is definitely still a wait an see on this trade.

Interesting points, however.

1) Does OKC really need scoring that bad with 2 of the Top 10 scorers in the league?
2) Hardens biggest asset to the team was his ability to facilitate and create shots for others, not just his scoring, which Jeremy Lamb cannot do, or Kevin Martin(as was shown)
3) I don't think anyone is writing them off as a good team, just not a championship team until someone learns how to play team basketball. Westy is a great scorer and defender but in order for them to take that next step he needs to become way more efficient and pick his spots better.
4) The Clippers just hired Doc Rivers and with that roster, barring he can get his guys to buy in, watch out
5) OKC still has no low post threat...you need balance to keep defenses honest and less pressure on your scorers.
6) Their bench isn't that great, i'd like to see them add some veteran depth not just drafting rookies every year.

They won't be scrubs, but winning a championship, I do not see them going that far as-is. Right now they are built for the regular season, not the playoffs.

Raps18-19 Champ
09-04-2013, 04:58 PM
Everyone needs to stop writing them off and remember that Jeremy Lamb is still on this team.

I have been on this site long enough to remember when people were calling James Harden a bust in his rookie season.


1. You were on this site for 1 month during Harden's rookie year
2. No one was saying that.

BKLYNpigeon
09-04-2013, 05:31 PM
so... OKC gave up on Harden and winning a championship now, so they could have Jeremy Lamb and hopefully he develops into a player in 2-3 years.

If I were OKC, I would have kept Harden and have a a legit shot at a title for 1 year and let him walk away for nothing.

EL_MACHETE
09-04-2013, 07:19 PM
I have a feeling that Jeremy Lamb, Reggie Jackson, Perry Jones will all improve a lot and be the 3-headed beast off the bench. We won't have a #1 6man but we'll have 3 great ones

Jackson- 13ppg
Lamb- 14.5ppg
Jones-11ppg

east fb knicks
09-04-2013, 07:40 PM
its to early to judge cuz okc got extra picks in next years draft which might be the biggest draft since lebron in about 2 years time we will be saying how smart okc when they rebuild while winning 55 + games but i would have kept harden and got rid of perkins but what ever either way they are good

b@llhog24
09-04-2013, 08:03 PM
He'll never be as good as Harden is now.

Bishnoff
09-04-2013, 08:17 PM
Interesting points, however.

1) Does OKC really need scoring that bad with 2 of the Top 10 scorers in the league?
2) Hardens biggest asset to the team was his ability to facilitate and create shots for others, not just his scoring, which Jeremy Lamb cannot do, or Kevin Martin(as was shown)
3) I don't think anyone is writing them off as a good team, just not a championship team until someone learns how to play team basketball. Westy is a great scorer and defender but in order for them to take that next step he needs to become way more efficient and pick his spots better.
4) The Clippers just hired Doc Rivers and with that roster, barring he can get his guys to buy in, watch out
5) OKC still has no low post threat...you need balance to keep defenses honest and less pressure on your scorers.
6) Their bench isn't that great, i'd like to see them add some veteran depth not just drafting rookies every year.

They won't be scrubs, but winning a championship, I do not see them going that far as-is. Right now they are built for the regular season, not the playoffs.

Spot on, especially the bolded. Great post.

Sly Guy
09-04-2013, 08:33 PM
I was mad at my raps for taking ross over lamb. I'd still take lamb on. Coming into the draft he was touted as a shooter, one of the best ones available, so if he isn't shooting now, it's probably a confidence thing, and if not, shooting is the easiest skill to teach, so it's not something I'd be concerned with. In OKC he's just been buried on the bench. I'm still a firm believer that he could turn into something great. Maybe not Harden, but good all the same

FlashBolt
09-05-2013, 03:09 AM
Signing Ibaka and trading for Perkins was stupid. Perkins can't defend without fouling, he certainly can't score. Ibaka has a good mid range shot, can block shots, but isn't a "great" defender. they were better off waiting for Dwight.

KingstonHawke
09-05-2013, 03:58 AM
Interesting points, however.

1) Does OKC really need scoring that bad with 2 of the Top 10 scorers in the league?
2) Hardens biggest asset to the team was his ability to facilitate and create shots for others, not just his scoring, which Jeremy Lamb cannot do, or Kevin Martin(as was shown)
3) I don't think anyone is writing them off as a good team, just not a championship team until someone learns how to play team basketball. Westy is a great scorer and defender but in order for them to take that next step he needs to become way more efficient and pick his spots better.
4) The Clippers just hired Doc Rivers and with that roster, barring he can get his guys to buy in, watch out
5) OKC still has no low post threat...you need balance to keep defenses honest and less pressure on your scorers.
6) Their bench isn't that great, i'd like to see them add some veteran depth not just drafting rookies every year.

They won't be scrubs, but winning a championship, I do not see them going that far as-is. Right now they are built for the regular season, not the playoffs.

Most of this I disagree with.

1. Not scoring necessarily, but spot up shooting from the 2 spot, yes they need that desperately. It spaces the floor for Westbrook. Kevin Martin did a great job of that. Even better than Harden did the year before.

2. That was not Harden's biggest asset to the team. In the regular season yes, but the playoffs matter more. And as the rotation shrinks, he would have to be on the court at the same time as Westbrook demoting him to spot up shooter. That's why he sucked it up in the playoffs. That's why if Westbrook doesn't get taken out by Beverly, Martin would be just as good a contributor as Harden at a cheaper price.

3. Writing them off as a championship team is a HUGE mistake. They were my pick to win it all last year until Westbrook went down. And I'm bias towards the Heat since I live in the heart of South Beach and see those players around from time to time.

4. The Clippers have probably gotten worse in my opinion. Yes, they added shooters. But neither can create their own shot or defend. And Griffin nor Jordan are the pick and roll threat to really maximize that shooting. They should've traded Griffin and Jordan to the Lakers for Howard, and then traded for Anderson. Then that roster would've been scary.

5. We actually agree here. I really wish they'd of traded Perkins and that pick to the 76ers for Bynum last year. He didn't miss the whole year because he was so hurt, he just loathed playing in Philly. He could've waited til April to suit up with the Thunder and been dominant during the playoffs.

6. They have one of the best benches in the league. The guy we're arguing about as a starter, is probably actually coming off that bench. Jackson, Lamb, Collison and Adams are all very solid. And don't sleep on Perry Jones. He could be really good if he adds some muscle and develops a better low post game.

It's early right now to make a prediction. But if Westbrook is truly healthy, I'm probably picking them to win it all this year.

IndyRealist
09-05-2013, 03:11 PM
Signing Ibaka and trading for Perkins was stupid. Perkins can't defend without fouling, he certainly can't score. Ibaka has a good mid range shot, can block shots, but isn't a "great" defender. they were better off waiting for Dwight.

I think the biggest mistake was not tading for Perkins, but refusing to admit that the trade was a bad idea. They could have amnestied him and had money for Harden.

king4day
09-05-2013, 05:33 PM
The problem is, people are comparing the role Harden had for OKC to what Lamb will play. The Thunder need Lamb to be their 6th man.

I haven't seen enough of him to make a fair assessment, but it's hard to believe he will save the second unit. IMO, if he doesn't, the Thunders dream of a title will end quickly. For all the praise Presti got putting this team together, he may have just as quickly taken it apart.

PurpleLynch
09-05-2013, 06:02 PM
Okc should start to fill his team with some decent players. They had the best Sf,behind Lebron,but man Durant can challenge his spot,their numbers are very similar.

hugepatsfan
09-05-2013, 07:12 PM
OKC should have moved Harden for a young post player, not a lesser replacement. They tried to cut their losses and add as good a young replacement as they could in Lamb, w/ Martin as a stopgap to give him time to develop a bit. If I were them, I would have tried for a post player. Instead of going for the same roster structure with lesser talent they should have tried to change the team's playing style a bit to offset the loss in talent.

hugepatsfan
09-05-2013, 07:16 PM
I think the biggest mistake was not tading for Perkins, but refusing to admit that the trade was a bad idea. They could have amnestied him and had money for Harden.

If they amnestied Perk and extended Harden they'd be in the luxury tax. And even though Perk's salary wouldn't count towards their luxury tax number (which they'd still be in anyway) the team still has to pay him his money.

smith&wesson
09-05-2013, 07:29 PM
There is no but in this scenario. They screwed up big time, no way to sugar coat that with a "but Lamb played well in the DL."

+1

hardedn is probably the best sg in the league now. you cant just replace that.

c.c.
09-05-2013, 08:13 PM
I agree, I think Lamb is gonna be a great player one day. Not just a role player!

arlubas
09-06-2013, 05:03 AM
OKC should have moved Harden for a young post player, not a lesser replacement. They tried to cut their losses and add as good a young replacement as they could in Lamb, w/ Martin as a stopgap to give him time to develop a bit. If I were them, I would have tried for a post player. Instead of going for the same roster structure with lesser talent they should have tried to change the team's playing style a bit to offset the loss in talent.
You have to keep in mind however that when the trade happened they thought their frontcourt was set with Perkins and Ibaka. They didn't know that Perk was gonna be worthless from then on or that Ibaka had already reached his potential. That's not to say that the whole thing wasn't a bad move on their part but rather that at the time of their decision it didn't seem that bad.

IKnowHoops
09-06-2013, 11:00 PM
but nothing

sunsfan88
11-14-2013, 01:57 AM
Lamb hasn't looked too good so far.

BKLYNpigeon
11-14-2013, 03:01 AM
OKC couldnt afford him so they had to trade Harden. if they had the money to go into Luxury Tax, Im sure they wanted to keep him..

Thats how you do it. Trade your Assets for Prospects and reload. Hopefully OKC can get some good players with those Draft picks acquired.

sunsfan88
11-14-2013, 03:23 AM
I agree, I think Lamb is gonna be a great player one day. Not just a role player!
Lol wtf.

Sactown
11-21-2013, 02:06 PM
The problem isnt that they traded Harden, its that they traded Harden for perimeter players and picks. They had the oppurtunity to flip Harden for a very good post player... Which is there biggest weakness .. I would of traded Harden for a post player and amnestied Perks and looked to sign a decent SG in free agency ..

EL_MACHETE
11-21-2013, 09:17 PM
Ino I would of done the same.. But we can't change the past.

KnicksorBust
11-21-2013, 09:27 PM
The problem isnt that they traded Harden, its that they traded Harden for perimeter players and picks. They had the oppurtunity to flip Harden for a very good post player... Which is there biggest weakness .. I would of traded Harden for a post player and amnestied Perks and looked to sign a decent SG in free agency ..

The problem is of course that they traded Harden. What are you talking about? You don't go the Finals and then downgrade your backcourt and play-making. It was blatantly they took a huge step back and it showed when they got manhandled by the Grizz and knocked out in round 2 in 5 games.

KnicksorBust
11-21-2013, 09:27 PM
The hysterical part of all of this is how amazing Kevin Martin is now playing for the Timberwolves.

Sactown
11-21-2013, 11:36 PM
The problem is of course that they traded Harden. What are you talking about? You don't go the Finals and then downgrade your backcourt and play-making. It was blatantly they took a huge step back and it showed when they got manhandled by the Grizz and knocked out in round 2 in 5 games. if they added a big like Greg Monroe, DeMarcus, Lamarcus Aldridge, Or KLove. They'd be a much better team... Trading Harden wasn't the problem... Not getting something that would actually benefit them was the problem

alexander_37
11-21-2013, 11:37 PM
if they added a big like Greg Monroe, DeMarcus, Lamarcus Aldridge, Or KLove. They'd be a much better team... Trading Harden wasn't the problem... Not getting something that would actually benefit them was the problem

I pretty much agree with this. Harden and KD's games don't mesh that well together, they are to similar (I.E put up ungodly amounts of points and not a ton else.)

Sactown
11-21-2013, 11:45 PM
I pretty much agree with this. Harden and KD's games don't mesh that well together, they are to similar (I.E put up ungodly amounts of points and not a ton else.) plus a guy to play in the low post who can demand double teams and allow KD to have more space, and a guy you can throw it to down low and will get you 2 points

Byronicle
11-21-2013, 11:54 PM
Lol the problem is what they got in return

They could've really cashed in on something much more then just a bust in Lamb and an expiring

IndiansFan337
11-21-2013, 11:56 PM
Everyone needs to stop writing them off and remember that Jeremy Lamb is still on this team.

I have been on this site long enough to remember when people were calling James Harden a bust in his rookie season.

Hardens rookie stats:
9.9/3/1.8 on 40% shooting in 23 minutes

Hardens summer league stats from his rookie season:
14/3/3 on 48% shooting
http://www.nba.com/summerleague2009/statistics/index.jsp

Jeremy Lamb also had a disappointing rookie year, primarily because he played for a contender who had plenty of guard options in Thabo Sefalosha and Kevin Martin.

If you look at his d-league stats, which obviously aren't a be all indicator, we see that he isn't a bad player, or even one without potential.

2012-2013 D-league stats
20/5/2 on 49% shooting and 88% from the line.

Those are pretty strong stats, and the kid was born in 1992 and fits directly into OKC's consistent strategy. He's a floor spacer for Durant and Westbrook who doesn't need the ball to be effective. He has a high FT% as is the case with everyone on OKC so when the game is on the line, he is not a disadvantage.

Lamb is also the prototypical SG height (6' 5'') and weight (180 lbs), the same weight Tmac and kobe were when they entered the league. His long arms make him an active defender as well.

Then we have this years summer league stats for Lamb:
19/4/3 on 40% shooting
http://www.nba.com/summerleague/2013/statistics/orlando/index.html

Again, these are more indicative of his ability than his possible future success, but they still show his promise.

Even Harden's 2nd season stats were pretty below average/ordinary:
12/3/2 on 43% shooting


Then you also have the forgotten man: Reggie Jackson. He played extremely well in the playoffs and was definitely not a reason for getting eliminated. His summer stats are also encouraging:

20/3/3 on 54% shooting
http://www.nba.com/summerleague/2013/statistics/orlando/index.html


So as you can see, Lamb still has as much potential as any young player in the league. He has not had a chance to play in the NBA but he has succeeded at every level. If I remember correctly, he was a projected top 7 player who dropped in the draft because of work/dedication concerns. I'm sure those are no longer relevant considering Durant and Westy would not let that happen. Everyone on the team is known for working hard and improving (Westy, KD, Ibaka, even perkins who sucks still plays and works hard).

Was the trade a bad decision? Yes, but the jury is still out Lamb and he certainly has the potential to put up the same stats that Harden did (16/3/3 on 48% shooting). You forget that Harden was never going to be the guy he is not in OKC. We just didn't need it. Jackson can handle the ball in the 2nd unit, thereby, making Lamb a primary scorer. Again, we don't need Hardens playmaking with the growth of Jackson.

Even more so, Lamb could end up being an all star ala Rip Hamilton in his heyday. There is definitely still a wait an see on this trade.
At this point Lamb is not anywhere close to the level of Harden. I don't think anyone believes he ever will be. I can understand you want some time to see what Lamb becomes before totally dismissing this trade. Lamb should be able to close the gap some, because it is so lopsided right now. But he is never going to be an All-Star level player like Harden.

And you say he had a hard time getting PT last yr behind players like Martin and Sefalosha. That tells you all you need to know. If he cannot take minutes from Sefalosha then he either is not ready or just not that good. Or both.

I am not even confident that Lamb will ever become a full-time NBA starter.

John Walls Era
11-22-2013, 12:13 AM
Summer League and D-League stats?

Does anyone remember what happened to all the summer league mvps? The guy the Thunder cut recently?

KnicksorBust
11-22-2013, 12:24 AM
if they added a big like Greg Monroe, DeMarcus, Lamarcus Aldridge, Or KLove. They'd be a much better team... Trading Harden wasn't the problem... Not getting something that would actually benefit them was the problem

1. Why break up a team that went to the finals?
1. It's pure speculation those players would have even been available in a deal.
2. How do you even sign them long-term? OKC can't max out Westy-Durant-Cousins. So the idea to trade for him makes no sense.

Sactown
11-22-2013, 12:28 AM
1. Why break up a team that went to the finals?
1. It's pure speculation those players would have even been available in a deal.
2. How do you even sign them long-term? OKC can't max out Westy-Durant-Cousins. So the idea to trade for him makes no sense.

I know Aldridge was on the block and I bet a few other teams would of been interested in the number 1 SG in the NBA .. Also many of those players are up for extension for after this season which would buy OKC time also I stated early that I would of amnestied Perkins.. So yes one of those scenarios would of worked