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bagwell368
09-03-2013, 09:53 PM
Some time back Lucchie opined:


A great defensive shortstop is more valuable than a great offensive shortstop. A shortstop can save more hits and runs with his glove than he can ever produce with a bat.

So wrong....


Look at teams that have won with a SS that could not hit. The Mendoza line crew of Mark Bellanger, Ozzie Smith (could not hit early in his career), Don Kessinger, and Al Weiss with the Mets could never hit. And, there are many who hit around .250 and won. How many great hitting shortstops have won a World Championship compared to great defensive shortstops? I'd take Iglesias now, with a .180 average, rather than sign Reyes. From what I understand, he is better defensively than Reyes, and thus more valuable IMHO.

Top 10 SS oWAR career ended after 1965:

Arod 112.7
Jeter 94.1
Yount 82.3
Ripken 77.4
Larkin 67.5
Trammell 62.3
Banks 62.0
Tejada 51.2
Fregois 50.1
Campy 47.6

Top 10 SS dWAR career ended after 1965:

Ozzie S.: 43.4
Belanger: 39.4
C Ripken: 34.6
Aparicio: 31.6
OVizquel: 28.4
OGuillen: 22.5
McMillan: 21.6
Sanchez: 20.5
G Gagne: 18.8
Hansen: 16.2


Geez, 10th highest offensive player has a higher oWAR than the highest dWAR player... So much for that misconception.

Boston-Born
09-03-2013, 10:26 PM
This has really been eating at you for a while, huh? While I agree on this, I don't know if a new thread was needed just to further ridicule Lucchie.

ruckus16969
09-03-2013, 11:25 PM
This has really been eating at you for a while, huh? While I agree on this, I don't know if a new thread was needed just to further ridicule Lucchie.

LOL dam

ManRam
09-03-2013, 11:30 PM
This has really been eating at you for a while, huh? While I agree on this, I don't know if a new thread was needed just to further ridicule Lucchie.

Bags is always right, guys. He'll never not make sure we all know it ;)


I do agree that it's a silly point, tho.

I also think that Jose is gone and we're doing great, so whatever. Moving along...

sawxfan
09-04-2013, 12:56 AM
First off, I must agree with everyone else that someone needs to let #%$& go.

Second, Arod hasn't been a SS in 8 yrs and his "O" numbers are inflated like his biceps.

Third, when you compare one predominantly offensive SS(Larkin) with one very defensive minded SS(Smith), you get very similar overall WAR numbers.

Fourth, you are a smart guy, you must realize that you are misusing stats just to prove your overall point. Defensive WAR numbers are much more difficult to come up with. During the "dead ball" era I would say that a defensive "wiz" was more important. We may be heading to something more like that over the next few years.

sawxfan
09-04-2013, 01:02 AM
Less than half of Fregosi's years in the "bigs" was he purely a SS. Robin Yount played his last nine years at a different position. In '86 Ernie Riles took over for him at shortstop because his defense was a liability. Yount put up some big WAR numbers after being moved from SS.

bagwell368
09-04-2013, 06:16 AM
First off, I must agree with everyone else that someone needs to let #%$& go.

Second, Arod hasn't been a SS in 8 yrs and his "O" numbers are inflated like his biceps.

Third, when you compare one predominantly offensive SS(Larkin) with one very defensive minded SS(Smith), you get very similar overall WAR numbers.

Fourth, you are a smart guy, you must realize that you are misusing stats just to prove your overall point. Defensive WAR numbers are much more difficult to come up with. During the "dead ball" era I would say that a defensive "wiz" was more important. We may be heading to something more like that over the next few years.

The point is it is no longer the dead ball era or the little dead ball era. Lucchie's misconception on the relative value of offense and defense is skewed (based in large part from growing up in the little dead ball era and those that played during that time), and he's not the only one to hold such views. Detroit coming in and Iggy making some nice plays gives an opportunity to discuss it again.

As for examples (AROD, Ozzie, Larkin), I could have just as easily given the league numbers for oWAR and dWAR, and see six AL players sit at 2.0 dWAR and above and fifty AL players sit at 2.0 oWAR and above.

With the influx of the new hitting stars of the past 3 years, I see no evidence that we are headed to a 3rd dead ball era, and I haven't misused anything. I'm also not the only one to hammer at Lucchie's POV's.

bagwell368
09-04-2013, 06:19 AM
Less than half of Fregosi's years in the "bigs" was he purely a SS. Robin Yount played his last nine years at a different position. In '86 Ernie Riles took over for him at shortstop because his defense was a liability. Yount put up some big WAR numbers after being moved from SS.

The same is true of some of the fielder first players I listed. Look at my last post the 2013 AL overall hitting and fielding stats clearly show that hitting >> fielding even in this "era" which is on the more balanced side than much of the past 60 years.

bagwell368
09-04-2013, 06:30 AM
This has really been eating at you for a while, huh? While I agree on this, I don't know if a new thread was needed just to further ridicule Lucchie.

This thread isn't about Iggy or Drew per se (I didn't list any stats nor make any directed arguments), and that quote didn't come from that thread either, therefore it's a new topic.

bagwell368
09-04-2013, 08:07 AM
First off, I must agree with everyone else that someone needs to let #%$& go. .

Fascinating POV for a poster that has fourteen (14) posts on PSD over
the past 4 months a few odd days and twelve (12) of them were directed at me.

My ratio aimed at Lucchie across all of PSD in that same time frame is well over a magnitude lower expressed as percentages. Let's see you take your own advice.

Boston-Born
09-04-2013, 11:33 AM
This thread isn't about Iggy or Drew per se (I didn't list any stats nor make any directed arguments), and that quote didn't come from that thread either, therefore it's a new topic.

Then why is this in the RS forum and not the main MLB forum?

bagwell368
09-04-2013, 01:07 PM
Then why is this in the RS forum and not the main MLB forum?

It could be in the MLB Forum, it could be in the Sabermetric Forum, or it can be here. If a mod wants to move it, that's fine with me. Given how quiet the group has been, they might want to think about that first.

lucchesicourt
09-05-2013, 04:37 PM
dWar is NOT a calculable stat. Why? it's really simple. A great play that turns a hit into 1 or 2 outs does not produce any further information as to how many runs would have scored if he had not made the play. For instance, in Monday's game a ball is hit up the middle and looks like the Sox have 2 runners on (either 1st and 2nd or 1st and 3rd) but Iggy makes a great play turning it into a 2 out no runners on (Peralta would not have done so). So, tell me, if Iggy doesn't make the play, how many runs do the Sox score and how does this affect the dWar? You CANNOT tell. dWar is a garbage stat.

lucchesicourt
09-05-2013, 05:06 PM
Arod 112.7- no WS as a SS
Jeter 94.1- 4
Yount 82.3- 1
Ripken 77.4-1
Larkin 67.5-1
Trammell 62.3-Trammel 1
Banks 62.0-none
Tejada 51.2-1
Fregois 50.1-none
Campy 47.6-3
Total- 12

Ozzie S.: 43.4- 1
Belanger: 39.4-1
C Ripken: 34.6-1
Aparicio: 31.6-1
OVizquel: 28.4-none
OGuillen: 22.5-2
McMillan: 21.6
Sanchez: 20.5 These last 4 are not the top defensive SS- what happened to Tony
G Gagne: 18.8 Fernandez, and Davey Concepcion,
Hansen: 16.2

Lackeyfan41
09-06-2013, 02:49 AM
How should Bogs fair defensively at SS if/when given the job next year? Would he be league average, or worse?

With the way WMB has come on it is hopefully safe to say he is the 3B next year (hopefully they leave him there and do not move him, unless Bogs has to get out of SS)

The left side of our infield could be quite shaky with WMB (not a very good fielder) and Bogs.

bagwell368
09-06-2013, 05:23 AM
How should Bogs fair defensively at SS if/when given the job next year? Would he be league average, or worse?

With the way WMB has come on it is hopefully safe to say he is the 3B next year (hopefully they leave him there and do not move him, unless Bogs has to get out of SS)

The left side of our infield could be quite shaky with WMB (not a very good fielder) and Bogs.

XB is liable to be below average as a SS over the next few years. OTOH, he's liable to be fairly close to average as opposed to poor. WMB is liable to be a hair below average or below average, but not poor.

Given reasonable projections on their offense and the salary they command, they are both wins for the team. The question is what do the Sox do with Cecchini when comes up for 2015? One of the 3 might be headed for the DH or 1B roles.

Because of sports like basketball and football where the D is literally as important as the O, some people believe that's true in baseball - it is - except the D is fielding + pitching (pitching being well more important than fielding). The misnomer is people hear the word defense in baseball and think fielding which is simply false - and the basis for a lot of misconceptions and plain nonsense.

bagwell368
09-06-2013, 05:50 AM
These last 4 are not the top defensive SS:
Sanchez: 20.5
G Gagne: 18.8
Hansen: 16.2

Rubbish. McMillan was probably before your time, Hansen was the 2nd best defensive SS in baseball from '61-'65, Gagne and Sanchez were both excellent. The final 3 were all celebrated as great defensive SS's.

Concepcion was a great SS from '71 to '77 when the Reds were at their peak, so people remember that, not his long decline and time spent at other positions later.

TF was a great SS from '85-'90, not so much the rest of his career.

Both of those guys are in the same class as the bottom 4 guys on my list, but not better except perhaps in your subjective memory, and the point is what?

As for your other notations on WS wins, it's ridiculous. It's a team game. It's even more off the mark than when people ascribe "wins" to pitchers.

The game keeps evolving, take a good look at the best SS's since Ripken, far more of the top ones are offense first. The light weight, light hitting, big glove guys of the past are passed - in particular on bigger budget teams and the AL in general.

RedSoxtober
09-06-2013, 06:49 PM
dWar is NOT a calculable stat. Why? it's really simple. A great play that turns a hit into 1 or 2 outs does not produce any further information as to how many runs would have scored if he had not made the play. For instance, in Monday's game a ball is hit up the middle and looks like the Sox have 2 runners on (either 1st and 2nd or 1st and 3rd) but Iggy makes a great play turning it into a 2 out no runners on (Peralta would not have done so). So, tell me, if Iggy doesn't make the play, how many runs do the Sox score and how does this affect the dWar? You CANNOT tell. dWar is a garbage stat.

So you say. However, if you take a broader perspective (difficult, I know, but hang with me) you CAN suggest the impact of a defensive player making plays within the fielding range of his position and outside the range of his position. No, it's not absolute but that's really okay. Because if you use an AVERAGE derived over a sufficiently large sample (say, a year) then you can begin to measure the impact as an average. That's precisely what dWAR attempts to do.

This type of thing does not appeal to people who prefer counting stats like HR, RBI, and K which probably explains why it doesn't work for you.