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D_Rose1118
08-31-2013, 01:35 AM
where do you have him all time.
this guy was 20 and 10 2 years in a row in Golden state

tore his acl and still was very good
never won a title but played on some very talented miami teams, 1997 being the best iirc

is he top 10 pg's? 20?

this guy could possibly have the best single crossover move, too quick to stop

also chicago produces the best point guards of any city
Derrick Rose
Isiah Thomas
Tim Hardaway
Mo Cheeks
Doc Rivers

Ebbs
08-31-2013, 02:07 AM
He was good between 10-20 for sure

IKnowHoops
08-31-2013, 05:20 PM
I have him very high. He makes my top 10 PG of all time. Guys I would put ahead of him for sure are Magic , Big O, and thats it. On any given day he is as good or better than Chris Paul, Derron Williams, Gary Payton, Isaiah Thomas. I admit Tim Hardaway is my Third favorite player of all time and my favorite PG. When it comes to scoring and asst, Tim is definately a top 10 pg all time.

WadeKobe
08-31-2013, 06:14 PM
I have been a Heat fan since I was 6 years old ('92) and Timmy was my 4th favorite player growing up behind Mourning, Kidd, and Garnett.

However, he is barely top20. He sits right around 20 with Penny for me.


Magic
Stockton
Kidd
Oscar
Jackson
Nash
Payton
Paul
Frazier
Parker
Cousy
Cheeks
Lever
Thomas
Rondo
Miller
Strickland

Those are all locks, and Rose and Deron will pass him before long.

PurpleLynch
08-31-2013, 07:22 PM
Sure in the 10-20...I have to think in the top 10,considering Magic,Robertson,Thomas,Payton and Kidd are my top 5.

beasted86
08-31-2013, 07:47 PM
I have been a Heat fan since I was 6 years old ('92) and Timmy was my 4th favorite player growing up behind Mourning, Kidd, and Garnett.

However, he is barely top20. He sits right around 20 with Penny for me.


Magic
Stockton
Kidd
Oscar
Jackson
Nash
Payton
Paul
Frazier
Parker
Cousy
Cheeks
Lever
Thomas
Rondo
Miller
Strickland

Those are all locks, and Rose and Deron will pass him before long.

First things first, you aren't a HEAT fan. This has long been established on this forum.
2nd, most of your list is a joke, especially when you consider career numbers and accomplishments.

Rod Strickland? Please, please, please... comeback and post tomorrow apologizing that you were actually drunk today when you posted. That list is so ridiculous I shouldn't have even posted this response.

WadeKobe
08-31-2013, 08:22 PM
First things first, you aren't a HEAT fan. This has long been established on this forum.
2nd, most of your list is a joke, especially when you consider career numbers and accomplishments.

Rod Strickland? Please, please, please... comeback and post tomorrow apologizing that you were actually drunk today when you posted. That list is so ridiculous I shouldn't have even posted this response.

Lol, first of all tell me how I am not a heat fan. Lulz. Then tell me what is so bad about this list? And bring something to the table of substance.

Strickland and Hardaway's advanced lines are all pretty close, with Hardaway having the smallest edge on per minute basis and Strickland having longevity. Hardaway was te better shooter, but Strickland made up for it by being twice as good on the offensive glass, which is a larger margin than any of them have on the other in any statistic and it also, as a statistic carries more marginal value than anything on their line except for TOV, where Hardaway has a slight advantage. Their WS, and PER give Hardaway the per minute edge and Strickland a very close lead in total value, while WP suggests Strickland was just plain better.

The two of them are very close, and the use of the word "lock" was over the top, probably in response to te suggestion that he was just outside of the top 5.

The reality is, if you aren't being a homer, each has an equal case to the other, especially considering neither brings any real accolades tothe table, as there are no chips.

TrueFan420
08-31-2013, 11:11 PM
I have him very high. He makes my top 10 PG of all time. Guys I would put ahead of him for sure are Magic , Big O, and thats it. On any given day he is as good or better than Chris Paul, Derron Williams, Gary Payton, Isaiah Thomas. I admit Tim Hardaway is my Third favorite player of all time and my favorite PG. When it comes to scoring and asst, Tim is definately a top 10 pg all time.

Forgetting Stockton?

TrueFan420
08-31-2013, 11:12 PM
Sure in the 10-20...I have to think in the top 10,considering Magic,Robertson,Thomas,Payton and Kidd are my top 5.

Seriously second person in here to forget John Stockton

ewing
09-01-2013, 12:10 AM
Timmy was good. That's about it. Top 10 PG to play college ball in Texas

ewing
09-01-2013, 12:18 AM
I have been a Heat fan since I was 6 years old ('92) and Timmy was my 4th favorite player growing up behind Mourning, Kidd, and Garnett.

However, he is barely top20. He sits right around 20 with Penny for me.


Magic
Stockton
Kidd
Oscar
Jackson
Nash
Payton
Paul
Frazier
Parker
Cousy
Cheeks
Lever
Thomas
Rondo
Miller
Strickland

Those are all locks, and Rose and Deron will pass him before long.

Lets add KJ, Mark Price, Lenny Wilkens, DJ, Sam Cassell, Billups,, and Moncref, at least

b@llhog24
09-01-2013, 12:39 AM
I have been a Heat fan since I was 6 years old ('92) and Timmy was my 4th favorite player growing up behind Mourning, Kidd, and Garnett.

However, he is barely top20. He sits right around 20 with Penny for me.


Magic
Stockton
Kidd
Oscar
Jackson
Nash
Payton
Paul
Frazier
Parker
Cousy
Cheeks
Lever
Thomas
Rondo
Miller
Strickland

Those are all locks, and Rose and Deron will pass him before long.

Forgot Price.

b@llhog24
09-01-2013, 12:39 AM
I have been a Heat fan since I was 6 years old ('92) and Timmy was my 4th favorite player growing up behind Mourning, Kidd, and Garnett.

However, he is barely top20. He sits right around 20 with Penny for me.


Magic
Stockton
Kidd
Oscar
Jackson
Nash
Payton
Paul
Frazier
Parker
Cousy
Cheeks
Lever
Thomas
Rondo
Miller
Strickland

Those are all locks, and Rose and Deron will pass him before long.

Forgot Price.

MrfadeawayJB
09-01-2013, 12:53 AM
Utep two step killer crossover

abe_froman
09-01-2013, 01:23 AM
about 20-25 on the pg list,i honestly cant see how anyone could have him higher than 15

IKnowHoops
09-01-2013, 02:10 AM
Forgetting Stockton? I'm not forgetting him. I'd take prime Tim Hardaway over Prime Stockton any day of the week.

IKnowHoops
09-01-2013, 02:26 AM
I'm not forgetting him. I'd take prime Tim Hardaway over Prime Stockton any day of the week.

Its like the PSD's top 50 players. Stockton is ranked higher than Lebron, because they are taking into total career achievements and Stocktons asst really boost his "greatness value". But the fact that Lebron is ranked lower the stockton on the list, makes the list to flawed for me to use when ranking players.

I go by strictly who was better. I mean lets be real. Tracy Mcgrady, Vince Carter, and Allen Iverson are all better than John Stockton. Isaiah Thomas, Gary Payton, Tim Hardaway, Kevin Johnson, Barren Davis, even Stephon Marburry were better than John Stockton. Stockton is the second greatest passer in history behind Magic IMO. And he is the most willing passer ever. But all of these guys are also great scorers and can play better defense than Johns Stockton. They are also all great passers. John Stockton was an average scorer, with average defense but the most productive passer of all time.

D_Rose1118
09-01-2013, 02:35 AM
Its like the PSD's top 50 players. Stockton is ranked higher than Lebron, because they are taking into total career achievements and Stocktons asst really boost his "greatness value". But the fact that Lebron is ranked lower the stockton on the list, makes the list to flawed for me to use when ranking players.

I go by strictly who was better. I mean lets be real. Tracy Mcgrady, Vince Carter, and Allen Iverson are all better than John Stockton. Isaiah Thomas, Gary Payton, Tim Hardaway, Kevin Johnson, Barren Davis, even Stephon Marburry were better than John Stockton. Stockton is the second greatest passer in history behind Magic IMO. And he is the most willing passer ever. But all of these guys are also great scorers and can play better defense than Johns Stockton. They are also all great passers. John Stockton was an average scorer, with average defense but the most productive passer of all time.

how quickly they forget


or never saw in the first place

IKnowHoops
09-01-2013, 02:47 AM
how quickly they forget


or never saw in the first place

I saw him, and Isaiah. Noone at the time thought Stockton was better than Isaiah. Its only people that didnt live through it and now just look at stockton's dream team spot, and his asst records.

The guy was an awesome passer, but one dimensional compared to a guy like Chris Paul.

D_Rose1118
09-01-2013, 02:49 AM
I saw him, and Isaiah. Noone at the time thought Stockton was better than Isaiah. Its only people that didnt live through it and now just look at stockton's dream team spot, and his asst records.

The guy was an awesome passer, but one dimensional compared to a guy like Chris Paul.

okay just because he not as good as ISIAH doesnt mean the same thing as Stephon Marbury being better than stockton

jp611
09-01-2013, 03:14 AM
#1 when it comes to bigotry

jp611
09-01-2013, 03:19 AM
Tim Hardaway better than John Stockton?

:laugh:

DreamShaker
09-01-2013, 05:14 AM
He was really good. Here is a list of PG's in their prime I would take over him in no order:

Magic
Oscar
Kidd
Isiah
Stockton
Penny
Kevin Johnson
Chris Paul
Gary Payton
Walt Frazier
Mark Price
Steve Nash
Tiny
Cousy

I don't consider DJ and Moncrief point guards. I think is in the 15-18 range.

PurpleLynch
09-01-2013, 05:41 AM
Seriously second person in here to forget John Stockton

I'm not fogetting Stockton. This is my top 5,John Stockton is in my top 10 along with Nash for example,but not top five for me.
Stockton was surely a marvellous passer,but you have to consider a lot of factors,like championships,overall value,Karl Malone was a scoring machine etc...

WadeKobe
09-01-2013, 07:08 AM
Lets add KJ, Mark Price, Lenny Wilkens, DJ, Sam Cassell, Billups,, and Moncref, at least

Moncreif = SG imo

I would need to look at Price and Billups, I thought about them later while at work.

Cassel as KJ no.

WadeKobe
09-01-2013, 07:14 AM
Its like the PSD's top 50 players. Stockton is ranked higher than Lebron, because they are taking into total career achievements and Stocktons asst really boost his "greatness value". But the fact that Lebron is ranked lower the stockton on the list, makes the list to flawed for me to use when ranking players.

I go by strictly who was better. I mean lets be real. Tracy Mcgrady, Vince Carter, and Allen Iverson are all better than John Stockton. Isaiah Thomas, Gary Payton, Tim Hardaway, Kevin Johnson, Barren Davis, even Stephon Marburry were better than John Stockton. Stockton is the second greatest passer in history behind Magic IMO. And he is the most willing passer ever. But all of these guys are also great scorers and can play better defense than Johns Stockton. They are also all great passers. John Stockton was an average scorer, with average defense but the most productive passer of all time.

Lol no

TrueFan420
09-01-2013, 01:55 PM
I'm not forgetting him. I'd take prime Tim Hardaway over Prime Stockton any day of the week.
Agree to disagree

I'm not fogetting Stockton. This is my top 5,John Stockton is in my top 10 along with Nash for example,but not top five for me.
Stockton was surely a marvellous passer,but you have to consider a lot of factors,like championships,overall value,Karl Malone was a scoring machine etc...

Also agree to disagree dude is top 5 no question about it. As far as championships dude went up against prime Jordan and a very strong west, unfortunate timing. Overall value? Is that seriously in debate. And Malone, yes he was a great scorer but don't forget Stockton set him up with some easy buckets not like he passed Malone the ball than Malone dribbled around and took some madly contested hard shot to hook up Stockton with an assist. Don't get it twisted it wasn't all Stockton or Malone they both helped eachother.

ewing
09-01-2013, 03:06 PM
trying to think of guys i never saw that might be better. How about Calvin Murphy, Tiny, Gail Goodridge, Norm Nixon, Norm Van Lear. Nixon is the only guy on this list that i saw at all so I really idk but i wonder what some old school guys think?

ewing
09-01-2013, 03:16 PM
Its like the PSD's top 50 players. Stockton is ranked higher than Lebron, because they are taking into total career achievements and Stocktons asst really boost his "greatness value". But the fact that Lebron is ranked lower the stockton on the list, makes the list to flawed for me to use when ranking players.

I go by strictly who was better. I mean lets be real. Tracy Mcgrady, Vince Carter, and Allen Iverson are all better than John Stockton. Isaiah Thomas, Gary Payton, Tim Hardaway, Kevin Johnson, Barren Davis, even Stephon Marburry were better than John Stockton. Stockton is the second greatest passer in history behind Magic IMO. And he is the most willing passer ever. But all of these guys are also great scorers and can play better defense than Johns Stockton. They are also all great passers. John Stockton was an average scorer, with average defense but the most productive passer of all time.


What are you bases your opinion on? You realize he is the all time steals leader and was named 2 team all NBA defense 5 times in his career. I idea that Stehpon and Barron were better defender is totally laughable. He was a better defender then most of the guys you mentioned. I also don't see how he was one dimensional. He was a great passer, an excellent defender, and in his prime was good for 17 a night on 50+ from the field, 80+ from the line, and near 40% 3 point shooter. A lot of those guys were better one on one off the dribble but if anything a guy like Steph was one dimensional b/c that's the only thing he was really really good at.

mike_noodles
09-01-2013, 04:21 PM
I take Jannero Pargo over Timmy all day long.

beasted86
09-01-2013, 05:10 PM
Lol, first of all tell me how I am not a heat fan. Lulz. Then tell me what is so bad about this list? And bring something to the table of substance.


You aren't a HEAT fan and have never been one. You simply signed up with a username with Wade in it, that's it. You don't follow the HEAT, you don't root for the HEAT, you don't live in Miami, you don't know the team's history, you aren't a HEAT fan. Simple. We've had this discussion before I'm pretty sure.

On topic, the truth is that Hardaway is somewhere between 16-22. I would have to do more research to narrow down exactly where he falls, but the overall tone of your list tells me how little you know about Hardaway and basketball in general. Everything isn't based on "advanced stats" and "per 36" (although Hardaway leads many on your list which makes your argument even more laughable) . If that were the case then guys like Gilbert Arenas would be a top 15 PG and headed to the HOF, but thankfully most of us with half a brain knows that's not the reality.

I am not the all-knowing expert on basketball, but these are guys that should be considered locks as of right now on pretty much every list and come to the mind of any avid fan. I didn't look these up, but that is the point it shouldn't take much thought:

Magic, Stockton, Oscar, Tiny, Isiah, Frazier, Cousy, Payton, Kidd, Nash, Paul. Then depending on which you classify as a PG, West or Goodrich. I may be missing at best 1-2 persons from that list, nobody else is a "lock".

Not KJ, Penny, Billups, Price, none of them... because ultimately we all know they will fall in the same category as Tim... slight chance at HOF, but probably not, and they don't have significant career accomplishments tilting it far over to their favor. Everyone else their career is far from over.

PurpleLynch
09-01-2013, 05:22 PM
Agree to disagree


Also agree to disagree dude is top 5 no question about it. As far as championships dude went up against prime Jordan and a very strong west, unfortunate timing. Overall value? Is that seriously in debate. And Malone, yes he was a great scorer but don't forget Stockton set him up with some easy buckets not like he passed Malone the ball than Malone dribbled around and took some madly contested hard shot to hook up Stockton with an assist. Don't get it twisted it wasn't all Stockton or Malone they both helped eachother.

In fact I said that is a marvellous passer,never thought Malone could do it alone.But I previously said that my top 5 was Magic,Robertson,Isaiah,Payton and Kidd. I could add my arguments,but they're debatable like the ones you can do against my opinion.Why?Because this kind of discussion can't end with an objective opinion that's true in all of its aspects.

TrueFan420
09-01-2013, 05:30 PM
In fact I said that is a marvellous passer,never thought Malone could do it alone.But I previously said that my top 5 was Magic,Robertson,Isaiah,Payton and Kidd. I could add my arguments,but they're debatable like the ones you can do against my opinion.Why?Because this kind of discussion can't end with an objective opinion that's true in all of its aspects.

Very true and I agree

MonroeFAN
09-01-2013, 05:58 PM
I'm not forgetting him. I'd take prime Tim Hardaway over Prime Stockton any day of the week.

wat?

ewing
09-01-2013, 05:58 PM
You aren't a HEAT fan and have never been one. You simply signed up with a username with Wade in it, that's it. You don't follow the HEAT, you don't root for the HEAT, you don't live in Miami, you don't know the team's history, you aren't a HEAT fan. Simple. We've had this discussion before I'm pretty sure.

On topic, the truth is that Hardaway is somewhere between 16-22. I would have to do more research to narrow down exactly where he falls, but the overall tone of your list tells me how little you know about Hardaway and basketball in general. Everything isn't based on "advanced stats" and "per 36" (although Hardaway leads many on your list which makes your argument even more laughable) . If that were the case then guys like Gilbert Arenas would be a top 15 PG and headed to the HOF, but thankfully most of us with half a brain knows that's not the reality.

I am not the all-knowing expert on basketball, but these are guys that should be considered locks as of right now on pretty much every list and come to the mind of any avid fan. I didn't look these up, but that is the point it shouldn't take much thought:

Magic, Stockton, Oscar, Tiny, Isiah, Frazier, Cousy, Payton, Kidd, Nash, Paul. Then depending on which you classify as a PG, West or Goodrich. I may be missing at best 1-2 persons from that list, nobody else is a "lock".

Not KJ, Penny, Billups, Price, none of them... because ultimately we all know they will fall in the same category as Tim... slight chance at HOF, but probably not, and they don't have significant career accomplishments tilting it far over to their favor. Everyone else their career is far from over.

I think this is a reasonable post. I do think there are a couple other guys that are hands down better. Mo Cheeks, Lenny Wilkens, DJ maybe a couple others idk. Still, i do see Timmy in the same league as a lot of those other guys like you mentioned and i think a case can be made. I think after he lost his explosion he sunk a step below but you definitely have a case. Good post

IKnowHoops
09-01-2013, 06:19 PM
okay just because he not as good as ISIAH doesnt mean the same thing as Stephon Marbury being better than stockton

I could consider taking that one back. But I'm not sure.

ewing
09-01-2013, 06:25 PM
I could consider taking that one back. But I'm not sure.


I know Marbury was quite a defender right?

IKnowHoops
09-01-2013, 06:29 PM
Dominique Wilkins is another guy who was easily considered better than John Stockton when they both played.

PurpleLynch
09-01-2013, 06:39 PM
Dominique Wilkins is another guy who was easily considered better than John Stockton when they both played.

I think the topic is about placing Hardaway in the list of top pgs of all time(Wilkins?);correct me if I'm wrong,but I think I got that right.

IKnowHoops
09-01-2013, 07:05 PM
I think the topic is about placing Hardaway in the list of top pgs of all time(Wilkins?);correct me if I'm wrong,but I think I got that right.

True. I will say as I will overrate a few guys because I like them, I underrate Stockton because I think he was overrated. I'd love him as my point guard, but there are a lot of other guys I would take, probably because of athletic ability which may not be fair or valid in many cases.

But ball handling, explosiveness, and overall athleticism are all very important aspects and Tim has got Stockton in all of those, and I like having as many guys on the court as can that are unguardable by themselves.

WadeKobe
09-01-2013, 07:26 PM
You aren't a HEAT fan and have never been one. You simply signed up with a username with Wade in it, that's it. You don't follow the HEAT, you don't root for the HEAT, you don't live in Miami, you don't know the team's history, you aren't a HEAT fan. Simple. We've had this discussion before I'm pretty sure.

No. We have never had this conversation before. You're confusing me with someone else, obviously. Nice try, but fail.


On topic, the truth is that Hardaway is somewhere between 16-22. I would have to do more research to narrow down exactly where he falls, but the overall tone of your list tells me how little you know about Hardaway and basketball in general. Everything isn't based on "advanced stats" and "per 36" (although Hardaway leads many on your list which makes your argument even more laughable) . If that were the case then guys like Gilbert Arenas would be a top 15 PG and headed to the HOF, but thankfully most of us with half a brain knows that's not the reality.

I am not the all-knowing expert on basketball, but these are guys that should be considered locks as of right now on pretty much every list and come to the mind of any avid fan. I didn't look these up, but that is the point it shouldn't take much thought:

Magic, Stockton, Oscar, Tiny, Isiah, Frazier, Cousy, Payton, Kidd, Nash, Paul. Then depending on which you classify as a PG, West or Goodrich. I may be missing at best 1-2 persons from that list, nobody else is a "lock".

Not KJ, Penny, Billups, Price, none of them... because ultimately we all know they will fall in the same category as Tim... slight chance at HOF, but probably not, and they don't have significant career accomplishments tilting it far over to their favor. Everyone else their career is far from over.

Your Arenas point shows how little you know about the topic. Peace.

b@llhog24
09-01-2013, 07:38 PM
No. We have never had this conversation before. You're confusing me with someone else, obviously. Nice try, but fail.



Your Arenas point shows how little you know about the topic. Peace.

Probably confusing you with "Wade>Kobe"

WadeKobe
09-01-2013, 08:11 PM
Probably confusing you with "Wade>Kobe"

Maybe Wade>You. I AM Wade>Kobe, and, again, no such conversation ever happened, nor would it have been a possibility.

b@llhog24
09-01-2013, 08:14 PM
Maybe Wade>You. I AM Wade>Kobe, and, again, no such conversation ever happened, nor would it have been a possibility.

Was wondering about that. I know Wade>You as well, he got banned already.

beasted86
09-01-2013, 10:39 PM
No. We have never had this conversation before. You're confusing me with someone else, obviously. Nice try, but fail.
Ehhh, I'm pretty sure its you. Wade>You was a troll, but he was more of a HEAT fan than you.


Your Arenas point shows how little you know about the topic. Peace.
Says the guy who has Rajon Rondo, Rod Strickland, and Andre Miller in his "lock" list of top 20 PGs of all time. Your opinion on anything basketball related has very little value, so it's probably best that you "peace" out of this thread.

IKnowHoops
09-02-2013, 12:49 AM
No way Andre Miller was better than Tim hardaway.

Heediot
09-02-2013, 06:22 AM
He was injury riddled through his prime. He's not open 10. No guarantees hes even a hofer .


He'd be hard pressed to be top 5 PG (even in prime) in the league right now.

todu82
09-02-2013, 09:35 AM
Around 10-15 on an all-time point guards list.

WadeKobe
09-02-2013, 03:53 PM
Ehhh, I'm pretty sure its you. Wade>You was a troll, but he was more of a HEAT fan than you.

Stop making yourself look so ridiculous. I dot really care about what you think, but wife you've begun your own public humiliation, I will finish it for you.

First of all, again, no such "conversation" has ever taken place. I am a Heat fan, have been since I was 6, and have never been a fan of any other team, save for cheering for Kidd or Garnett if and only after the Heat were eliminated during the playoffs. When we beat SAS this year, my friend Damien, a Bulls can who introduced me to PSD, posted on his FB a congratulations to me, remarking the I am the only true Heat fan he knows, who "legitimately loved and followed them before Bron came to town." Then, there was the customer at my bar Saturday night (a Lakers fan, I bartend in SD) who wanted to be irritated I was Heat fan, at which point I drew his attention to my Dolphins sweatband, Dolphins bar-key, and the old school Dan Marino Jersey I was wearing.

In fact, you're more than welcome to check out my work FB, where a pic which features me in said Marino jersey is right there on my timeline, and another picture features me in another Marino jersey..... https://www.facebook.com/ben.atmaloneys

Or, maybe you could ask PocketKings who my NBA team is, and just how much of a Heat fan I am. Or maybe Greet.

You see, that's just how it is. Check my post history here at PSD. I don't post in the Heat Forum because it is full of absurd homers and a bunch of haters who just troll each other constantly. But I live a very open life on PSD and am not anonymous. Many users know me by my real name, I am connected on FB with my personal FB page, and am in a lifelong dynasty fantasy football league with people I insider friends that I know solely through PSD. People know me, Ben, not WK, and know who I am. Ask around. Find out who my NBA team is. Or, better yet, check my post history. Everything is on display and consistent. My story never changes. My dad is from LA, I grew up in DC, fell in love with the Dolphins at age 3 after a trip to sea world, saw the Heat on TV, chose them Bc they were from Miami too, my dad took me to Maryland to watch them eat the Bullets, and I have followed them ever since, from moving to Chicago, to moving to San Diego. Blah blah, it is really uninteresting and common knowledge about me as a poster at this point. It is posted in no less than 4 places. Go check the Heat Forum check in thread from 2010. You'll find the same story, and probably a reference to my friend Danien who introduced me to PSD.

So, now that you have been utterly embarrassed, maybe you will shut up? I am sorry the way I choose to express my fan-ness isn't the way you like. I am sorry I am not a homer and choose to be rational about my teams, every one of them. I am sorry I take an honest, analytical approcach to sports, and that my team is not immune from criticism or close inspection, but is instead the team who gets the strongest inspection and criticism. I assume Arison and Riley run the team the same way. I think I am in good company. You see, earlier this year I suggested tha my Chicago White Sox were a bad team, and that we would win, at most, 70 games this season and likely finish last inThe division. A mutual friend of a friend suggested I wasn't a true fan if I believed that. I said?... Look at the numbers. We stink. That's what being a fan is about: honesty.

So, you know what? I am not sorry. As a 12-year old boy I cried my eyes out wondering, "how did he get it over Zo? How did it go in the basket? This can't be happening, right?" In fact, I was looking at a picture of a basketball court with a dot on the court at every, single playoff game-winning shot ever. I recognized two, immediately. One just to the left of the top of the key on the left side of the court, and one just above the right elbow on the left side of the court. My mind immediately played two GIFS for me, before I ever clicked the dots. MJ over Russel, and Houston over Zo. you can say anything you want about who I follow, what history I know, etc. but the reality is, you're wrong, and embarrassingly so.


Says the guy who has Rajon Rondo, Rod Strickland, and Andre Miller in his "lock" list of top 20 PGs of all time. Your opinion on anything basketball related has very little value, so it's probably best that you "peace" out of this thread.

I likely know more about basketball than you could dream. This summer alone I read multiple analytical monographs, as well as two different Master's Theses on basketball analysis for sports statistics programs. The reality is that I could explain to you the value of a defensive rebound in terms of wins, and the difference between an offensive and defensive rebound, all in numbers and values. I could explain to you why rebounds are so much more valuable and telling than points. Or why assists are also. I could explain to you the basketball and statistical theory behind more stats than you even know exist, and could literally tell you about stats that very few people know exist. But, you're right, I don't know anything about basketball and my opinion is nonsense.

Or, more likely, you need some reading comprehension. I didn't say those players were locks for top20. I said "locks" for being above Hardaway. Rondo will no doubt be top20. Miller and Strickland, we would need some conversation, but they're bound to be passed up by Rose and Deron, and probably Westbrook, too. So, no, I never suggested they were locks for top20.

The humor of it all, is I said he was fringe top20, then you proceeded to get pissed off, but then agreed, saying he was 16-22 (exactly what fringe top20 means).

However, to appease you, I did some looking, added some names of people I forgot, and then did a little grouping to show how close some of these players are with Hardaway.



Magic
Stockton
Kidd
Oscar
Jackson
Nash
Payton
Paul
Frazier
Cousy
Parker
Billups
KJohnson
Cheeks
Lever
Thomas
Rondo

(Miller / Strickland / Archibald / Tim Hardaway / Cassel)


So, that puts him between 18-22.

Also, to repeat my verbiage so it is clear. All above Timmy are "locks" ahead of Timmy. There is no argument for him. Now, I will concede that others are close and not "locks" and that my first post was likely a bit hyperbolic to combat the nonsense above me suggesting he was top10, or even just outside of top5, including better than Stockton. :facepalm:

However, as I have already said, IMO, if we are making a ranking without ties, I would take Miller and Strickland above Hardaway because they both give me longevity and Offensive Rebounding, while being basically equal everywhere else across the board in terms of composite production. Again, Hardaway was a bit better per minute, but that is because he had two great years. Other than that he was no better than them, and was inconsistent and missed tons of playing time.

Sorry that I'm not sorry.

tredigs
09-02-2013, 04:26 PM
Dominique Wilkins is another guy who was easily considered better than John Stockton when they both played.

Why do you suppose Isiah never made an All NBA squad from the first season Stockton started (year 3. Age 25) on, despite Thomas still being very much prime? Stockton made it a decade straight... because he was regarded as the better player. And Wilkins was similar to Melo but had amazing dunks, so while he was popular, never had the impact on a team like Stockton. One of a few reasons why he never made a conference finals.

beasted86
09-02-2013, 06:24 PM
Stop making yourself look so ridiculous. I dot really care about what you think, but wife you've begun your own public humiliation, I will finish it for you.

First of all, again, no such "conversation" has ever taken place. I am a Heat fan, have been since I was 6, and have never been a fan of any other team, save for cheering for Kidd or Garnett if and only after the Heat were eliminated during the playoffs. When we beat SAS this year, my friend Damien, a Bulls can who introduced me to PSD, posted on his FB a congratulations to me, remarking the I am the only true Heat fan he knows, who "legitimately loved and followed them before Bron came to town." Then, there was the customer at my bar Saturday night (a Lakers fan, I bartend in SD) who wanted to be irritated I was Heat fan, at which point I drew his attention to my Dolphins sweatband, Dolphins bar-key, and the old school Dan Marino Jersey I was wearing.

In fact, you're more than welcome to check out my work FB, where a pic which features me in said Marino jersey is right there on my timeline, and another picture features me in another Marino jersey..... https://www.facebook.com/ben.atmaloneys

Or, maybe you could ask PocketKings who my NBA team is, and just how much of a Heat fan I am. Or maybe Greet.

You see, that's just how it is. Check my post history here at PSD. I don't post in the Heat Forum because it is full of absurd homers and a bunch of haters who just troll each other constantly. But I live a very open life on PSD and am not anonymous. Many users know me by my real name, I am connected on FB with my personal FB page, and am in a lifelong dynasty fantasy football league with people I insider friends that I know solely through PSD. People know me, Ben, not WK, and know who I am. Ask around. Find out who my NBA team is. Or, better yet, check my post history. Everything is on display and consistent. My story never changes. My dad is from LA, I grew up in DC, fell in love with the Dolphins at age 3 after a trip to sea world, saw the Heat on TV, chose them Bc they were from Miami too, my dad took me to Maryland to watch them eat the Bullets, and I have followed them ever since, from moving to Chicago, to moving to San Diego. Blah blah, it is really uninteresting and common knowledge about me as a poster at this point. It is posted in no less than 4 places. Go check the Heat Forum check in thread from 2010. You'll find the same story, and probably a reference to my friend Danien who introduced me to PSD.

So, now that you have been utterly embarrassed, maybe you will shut up? I am sorry the way I choose to express my fan-ness isn't the way you like. I am sorry I am not a homer and choose to be rational about my teams, every one of them. I am sorry I take an honest, analytical approcach to sports, and that my team is not immune from criticism or close inspection, but is instead the team who gets the strongest inspection and criticism. I assume Arison and Riley run the team the same way. I think I am in good company. You see, earlier this year I suggested tha my Chicago White Sox were a bad team, and that we would win, at most, 70 games this season and likely finish last inThe division. A mutual friend of a friend suggested I wasn't a true fan if I believed that. I said?... Look at the numbers. We stink. That's what being a fan is about: honesty.

So, you know what? I am not sorry. As a 12-year old boy I cried my eyes out wondering, "how did he get it over Zo? How did it go in the basket? This can't be happening, right?" In fact, I was looking at a picture of a basketball court with a dot on the court at every, single playoff game-winning shot ever. I recognized two, immediately. One just to the left of the top of the key on the left side of the court, and one just above the right elbow on the left side of the court. My mind immediately played two GIFS for me, before I ever clicked the dots. MJ over Russel, and Houston over Zo. you can say anything you want about who I follow, what history I know, etc. but the reality is, you're wrong, and embarrassingly so.



I likely know more about basketball than you could dream. This summer alone I read multiple analytical monographs, as well as two different Master's Theses on basketball analysis for sports statistics programs. The reality is that I could explain to you the value of a defensive rebound in terms of wins, and the difference between an offensive and defensive rebound, all in numbers and values. I could explain to you why rebounds are so much more valuable and telling than points. Or why assists are also. I could explain to you the basketball and statistical theory behind more stats than you even know exist, and could literally tell you about stats that very few people know exist. But, you're right, I don't know anything about basketball and my opinion is nonsense.

Or, more likely, you need some reading comprehension. I didn't say those players were locks for top20. I said "locks" for being above Hardaway. Rondo will no doubt be top20. Miller and Strickland, we would need some conversation, but they're bound to be passed up by Rose and Deron, and probably Westbrook, too. So, no, I never suggested they were locks for top20.

The humor of it all, is I said he was fringe top20, then you proceeded to get pissed off, but then agreed, saying he was 16-22 (exactly what fringe top20 means).

However, to appease you, I did some looking, added some names of people I forgot, and then did a little grouping to show how close some of these players are with Hardaway.



So, that puts him between 18-22.

Also, to repeat my verbiage so it is clear. All above Timmy are "locks" ahead of Timmy. There is no argument for him. Now, I will concede that others are close and not "locks" and that my first post was likely a bit hyperbolic to combat the nonsense above me suggesting he was top10, or even just outside of top5, including better than Stockton. :facepalm:

However, as I have already said, IMO, if we are making a ranking without ties, I would take Miller and Strickland above Hardaway because they both give me longevity and Offensive Rebounding, while being basically equal everywhere else across the board in terms of composite production. Again, Hardaway was a bit better per minute, but that is because he had two great years. Other than that he was no better than them, and was inconsistent and missed tons of playing time.

Sorry that I'm not sorry.

Didn't read it past the first sentence.

You said you were going to peace out. You've already made it clear you have not a clue what you are talking about. You aren't a HEAT fan, period. Goodbye.

WadeKobe
09-02-2013, 08:06 PM
Didn't read it past the first sentence.

You said you were going to peace out. You've already made it clear you have not a clue what you are talking about. You aren't a HEAT fan, period. Goodbye.

You do realize how stupid you are making yourself look, right?

IKnowHoops
09-04-2013, 12:31 AM
Why do you suppose Isiah never made an All NBA squad from the first season Stockton started (year 3. Age 25) on, despite Thomas still being very much prime? Stockton made it a decade straight... because he was regarded as the better player. And Wilkins was similar to Melo but had amazing dunks, so while he was popular, never had the impact on a team like Stockton. One of a few reasons why he never made a conference finals.


First off I could say...While you harp on Nique for not making a conference final in comparison to Stockton. Stockton never made won a ring like Isaiah. And Isaiah was the best player on his team. Now when talking about Nique and Stockton, again Nique never played with a player that was as good as he was. Meanwhile Stockton played with a guy who was definately better than he was. If I put Stockton on the badboy pistons, do they still win a ring? IMO heck no. If I put Dominique on a team with Malone do they go to the conference finals? IMO heck yes. Did you see Bird and Nique go at it in the playoffs. Nique was like Jordan. He was the best player on the floor in that series. They lost because nique had no teamates on the level of Bird's teammates. Both Isaiah and Wilkens were better than Stockton when both were at there best. Stockton has never been the best player on the court in his life.

tredigs
09-04-2013, 01:29 AM
[/B]

First off I could say...While you harp on Nique for not making a conference final in comparison to Stockton. Stockton never made won a ring like Isaiah. And Isaiah was the best player on his team. Now when talking about Nique and Stockton, again Nique never played with a player that was as good as he was. Meanwhile Stockton played with a guy who was definately better than he was. If I put Stockton on the badboy pistons, do they still win a ring? IMO heck no. If I put Dominique on a team with Malone do they go to the conference finals? IMO heck yes. Did you see Bird and Nique go at it in the playoffs. Nique was like Jordan. He was the best player on the floor in that series. They lost because nique had no teamates on the level of Bird's teammates. Both Isaiah and Wilkens were better than Stockton when both were at there best. Stockton has never been the best player on the court in his life.
This is all your personal opinion. My answer to Stockton being able to win in Thomas's spot on those Pistons - is **** yes. And to say Stockton was never the best on the court is just a laughable and foolish comment. He had every bit the impact of Malone, and personally more often than not I thought he was the best player on the court. Stockton slightly one ups Malone in both regular season and post-season WS/48 and more often than not had him in RAPM (often beating Jordan and virtually everyone else here as well). Malone was their go to scorer which certainly gets a ton of love, and an absolute beast in his own right, but Stockton ran that team in his mid 20's to early/mid 30's.

Your 'everyone thought Zeke was better than Stockton' argument would have a much better chance here if he could shoot better than a D Leaguer and - like I mentioned... and you ignored - wasn't ousted from All NBA Teams in favor of Stockton every year the two started. Nique? Get out of here with that. Another overrated volume scorer who offered little else on the floor. Seriously, he's Melo with a windmill.

WadeKobe
09-04-2013, 03:22 AM
It's like the MLB forum with RBIs. Everyone loves those points!! Never mind that points don't correlate to wins, are easily replaceable, and are largely a linear stat without any marginal, increasing value. Sigh.

COOLbeans
09-04-2013, 03:37 AM
Some of you people don't know basketball. Isaiah and Stockton should be always be top 5. Gary Payton is right behind them. If you have Stockton or Thomas ranked anywhere except top 5 all time PG, then frankly your post is irrelevant, and you don't know basketball

IKnowHoops
09-04-2013, 04:12 AM
This is all your personal opinion. My answer to Stockton being able to win in Thomas's spot on those Pistons - is **** yes. And to say Stockton was never the best on the court is just a laughable and foolish comment. He had every bit the impact of Malone, and personally more often than not I thought he was the best player on the court. Stockton slightly one ups Malone in both regular season and post-season WS/48 and more often than not had him in RAPM (often beating Jordan and virtually everyone else here as well). Malone was their go to scorer which certainly gets a ton of love, and an absolute beast in his own right, but Stockton ran that team in his mid 20's to early/mid 30's.

Your 'everyone thought Zeke was better than Stockton' argument would have a much better chance here if he could shoot better than a D Leaguer and - like I mentioned... and you ignored - wasn't ousted from All NBA Teams in favor of Stockton every year the two started. Nique? Get out of here with that. Another overrated volume scorer who offered little else on the floor. Seriously, he's Melo with a windmill.

Nash effect/See Nash's back to back MVP's

And the advanced stat that Stockton lead over Jordan...well, I think you have just found the flaw in that advanced stat. Thank you. I'll prove it to you too. Beating Jordan in an advanced stat, with arguably the best PF of all time on your team, yet, your success from a winning standpoint has you ringless. Obviously his advanced stats didn't translate over as he played on a very good team, much better than the Houston Rockets teams that won rings. Trust me I know Rings aren't everything. Ive been saying Bron was easily the best in the league way before he won. Efficiency is nothing without good production. And his production was only good from an asst standpoint. Everything else was nothing special.

So Stockton had a higher RAPM than Mike. Great. If they switched teams then, do the bulls with Stockton now beat the Jazz with Jordan? No, not even close, so how important is that advanced Stat that Stocton leads Jordan in if it doesn't translate into anything significant.

WadeKobe
09-04-2013, 04:21 AM
Nash effect/See Nash's back to back MVP's

And the advanced stat that Stockton lead over Jordan...well, I think you have just found the flaw in that advanced stat. Thank you.

The definition of ignorance. Data is wrong Bc it doesn't conform to my previous conclusions.

IKnowHoops
09-04-2013, 02:19 PM
The definition of ignorance. Data is wrong Bc it doesn't conform to my previous conclusions.

OK so your saying that David Robinson is better than Hakeem Olajuawan because he made more all star appearances over Hakeem when they were both in there prime, and he leads Hakeem in 95% of all regular season advanced stats?

IKnowHoops
09-04-2013, 02:20 PM
OK so your saying that David Robinson is better than Hakeem Olajuawan because he made more all star appearances over Hakeem when they were both in there prime, and he leads Hakeem in 95% of all regular season advanced stats?

If your answer is no, than your previous post is meant for yourself

Hawkeye15
09-04-2013, 04:14 PM
Dominique Wilkins is another guy who was easily considered better than John Stockton when they both played.

gross. By who?

WadeKobe
09-04-2013, 04:20 PM
OK so your saying that David Robinson is better than Hakeem Olajuawan because he made more all star appearances over Hakeem when they were both in there prime, and he leads Hakeem in 95% of all regular season advanced stats?

Odd that you answered your own question, isn't it? PER, WS, WP, and RAPM all agree. David Robinson was the better regular season player and it isn't even debatable.

However, WS, PER, and WP all agree on another fact - David Robinson's production continually dropped off in the playoffs against better competition and he was a considerably lesser player in the playoffs. While still great, he was not nearly as good as his regular season self.

They also agree that Hakeem, on the other hand, got significantly better in the playoffs against better competition. PER and WP say Hakeem was better than Robinson, while WS suggests Robinson was still slightly better per minute, but not cumulative.

Oddly, in line with this data, DRob has zero chips and Dream has two, including Dream taking DRob to school head to head inThe way to a chip.

Soooo... The data suggests that DRob was the significantly superior regular season player and Dream was the slightly better playoff performer. However, DRob played worse in the playoffs while Dream elevated his game, as champions do, and won two championships.

So, who is "better"? Tough question. I put Hakeem right above Robinson on my all-time list. They're usually something like 11 and 12 all time for me.

WadeKobe
09-04-2013, 04:21 PM
gross. By who?

This

IKnowHoops
09-04-2013, 06:17 PM
Odd that you answered your own question, isn't it? PER, WS, WP, and RAPM all agree. David Robinson was the better regular season player and it isn't even debatable.

However, WS, PER, and WP all agree on another fact - David Robinson's production continually dropped off in the playoffs against better competition and he was a considerably lesser player in the playoffs. While still great, he was not nearly as good as his regular season self.

They also agree that Hakeem, on the other hand, got significantly better in the playoffs against better competition. PER and WP say Hakeem was better than Robinson, while WS suggests Robinson was still slightly better per minute, but not cumulative.

Oddly, in line with this data, DRob has zero chips and Dream has two, including Dream taking DRob to school head to head inThe way to a chip.

Soooo... The data suggests that DRob was the significantly superior regular season player and Dream was the slightly better playoff performer. However, DRob played worse in the playoffs while Dream elevated his game, as champions do, and won two championships.

So, who is "better"? Tough question. I put Hakeem right above Robinson on my all-time list. They're usually something like 11 and 12 all time for me.

Honestly, thats the best case Ive seen made on PSD when it comes to the Robinson-Hakeem comparison. Good Job.

IKnowHoops
09-04-2013, 06:18 PM
gross. By who?

Hahaha. Pat Swazy himself said it.

IKnowHoops
09-04-2013, 06:19 PM
gross. By who?

No but for real though. Tell me why prime Stockton is better than Prime Nash.

Hawkeye15
09-04-2013, 06:25 PM
No but for real though. Tell me why prime Stockton is better than Prime Nash.

I think many kinda overrate Stockton, but Hardaway isn't in his class. Nash is.

Hawkeye15
09-04-2013, 06:25 PM
Hahaha. Pat Swazy himself said it.

I fight people over Swayze. total mancrush

TheMightyHumph
09-04-2013, 10:12 PM
Either the best or second best NBA Hardaway, at this point.

IKnowHoops
09-05-2013, 04:45 AM
This was Tim right after coming back from ACL surgery. Watch for your enjoyment if nothing else. Its actually pretty entertaining.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GL_UQKXi1X8

IKnowHoops
09-05-2013, 05:03 AM
Now this is the Prime Tim Hardaway that I'm talking about. I know that context must be used when watching film. Obviously when watching a highlight, it doesn't come close to letting you know the effectiveness of a player. Game film does. This is what coaches use to assess players they are recruiting. This a chopped version so its less effective in judging the effectiveness of a player but still can give a great perspective of what this guy can do over the course of 48 minutes.

That being said, its fine to disagree with me, but if you can watch this next chopped game film and still find no "good" reason someone may take Tim over Stockton, or at least put them in the same class, then agree to disagree. I completely disagree with the notion that Nash and Stockton are a class above Tim Hardaway.

Enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOT5hyVIeGQ

IKnowHoops
09-05-2013, 05:04 AM
And just to let you know the dude was not scared.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHrygsvvQ48

IKnowHoops
09-05-2013, 05:25 AM
And for those of you who don't know, this man was, and still is known for having the dirtiest crossover of all time. What made it so sick is that people knew it was coming and were still frozen. He could crossover anyone. As you will see in this video, he kills all of the great pg's several times each with the same exact move. I'm sorry, I'm taking Tim over Stockton on my team. I know its not popular, but Tim can do things that Stockton would never be able to do. 23 and 10 two year in a row. Please someone tell me the last person to do that!

Enjoy, and as always it has been my pleasure. But for real this is a very well done highlight film.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWb2lA5eLiI

Hawkeye15
09-05-2013, 10:02 AM
you are smart enough to know highlight videos don't prove anything.

IKnowHoops
09-05-2013, 12:24 PM
Yes most def, but complete game films in the playoffs w/stat lines against the showtime lakers can give you an idea about what a guy can do against top level competition.

Chronz
09-05-2013, 12:45 PM
Yes most def, but complete game films in the playoffs w/stat lines against the showtime lakers can give you an idea about what a guy can do against top level competition.
Pretty sure those were the slowtime Lakers. Remember what Stockton did to the TRUE Showtime Lakers?

BTW that mix was pretty good. THX

Hawkeye15
09-05-2013, 12:47 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=stockjo01&y1=2003&p2=hardati01&y2=2003&p3=nashst01&y3=2013&p4=johnsma02&y4=1996&p5=roberos01&y5=1974&p6=paulch01&y6=2013

Hardaway against some other greats at PG. Factoring in Nash's first 5 years were meh, due to position change early, and developing late, and Hardaway doesn't even remotely stack up statistically.

Chronz
09-05-2013, 12:52 PM
Not a fan of career averages dictating anything, you miss out on a few thing when you lump so much together.

IKnowHoops
09-05-2013, 12:58 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=stockjo01&y1=2003&p2=hardati01&y2=2003&p3=nashst01&y3=2013&p4=johnsma02&y4=1996&p5=roberos01&y5=1974&p6=paulch01&y6=2013

Hardaway against some other greats at PG. Factoring in Nash's first 5 years were meh, due to position change early, and developing late, and Hardaway doesn't even remotely stack up statistically.

Yeah, and this is in large part because Tim tore his ACL. Tim's progression was brought to a halt, and as you said if you compare the first 5 years its a land slide in Tim's favor. Tim's best seasons are better than most.

IKnowHoops
09-05-2013, 01:08 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=stockjo01&y1=2003&p2=hardati01&y2=2003&p3=nashst01&y3=2013&p4=johnsma02&y4=1996&p5=roberos01&y5=1974&p6=paulch01&y6=2013

Hardaway against some other greats at PG. Factoring in Nash's first 5 years were meh, due to position change early, and developing late, and Hardaway doesn't even remotely stack up statistically.

I'd love to see this same comparison done for like peak 4 years. I'm not talking career. In that case Stockton is above Lebron James right now too. Im talking Prime. I believe if Prime Tim and Prime Stockton went up against each other 10 times. Tim would outplay him. Stockton can't even guard or stop Tim in any way shape or form.

Hawkeye15
09-05-2013, 01:09 PM
Not a fan of career averages dictating anything, you miss out on a few thing when you lump so much together.

no doubt. In fact, Hardaway's case gets even worse if we start pulling primes, etc

IKnowHoops
09-05-2013, 01:10 PM
[QUOTE]Pretty sure those were the slowtime Lakers. Remember what Stockton did to the TRUE Showtime Lakers?

BTW that mix was pretty good. THX

Fo Sho

Hawkeye15
09-05-2013, 01:10 PM
I'd love to see this same comparison done for like peak 4 years. I'm not talking career. In that case Stockton is above Lebron James right now too. Im talking Prime. I believe if Prime Tim and Prime Stockton went up against each other 10 times. Tim would outplay him. Stockton can't even guard or stop Tim in any way shape or form.

not really. As I said, I think many overrate Stockton, and that is in part because of his longevity and huge numbers over time.

I will pull their primes in a couple minutes instead. But it will hurt Hardaway even further dude.

IKnowHoops
09-05-2013, 01:13 PM
not really. As I said, I think many overrate Stockton, and that is in part because of his longevity and huge numbers over time.

I will pull their primes in a couple minutes instead. But it will hurt Hardaway even further dude.

Appreciate it

Chronz
09-05-2013, 01:26 PM
I'd love to see this same comparison done for like peak 4 years. I'm not talking career. In that case Stockton is above Lebron James right now too. Im talking Prime. I believe if Prime Tim and Prime Stockton went up against each other 10 times. Tim would outplay him. Stockton can't even guard or stop Tim in any way shape or form.

Well what would you consider that stretch to be? He wasn't as quick after that first knee injury and by the end of the run was quite a different player but he turned himself into such a better shooter that you hardly noticed any slippage.

Hardaways prime was from his 2nd year up until those final knee injuries were regularly taking him out right, so from 24-31? He gave you 20-9 (113 ORTG) during those 7 years.

In terms of Peak Seasons, if you had to narrow it down, which would they be? Statistically, his best seasons were his 2nd, 7th and 8th of his career.

Chronz
09-05-2013, 01:36 PM
And why are we even comparing him to guys like Magic anyways?

Hawkeye15
09-05-2013, 01:49 PM
Well what would you consider that stretch to be? He wasn't as quick after that first knee injury and by the end of the run was quite a different player but he turned himself into such a better shooter that you hardly noticed any slippage.

Hardaways prime was from his 2nd year up until those final knee injuries were regularly taking him out right, so from 24-31? He gave you 20-9 (113 ORTG) during those 7 years.

In terms of Peak Seasons, if you had to narrow it down, which would they be? Statistically, his best seasons were his 2nd, 7th and 8th of his career.

yeah, I flipped over, and it would be hard to pull the guys IKH's is comparing to without lumping a ton of years together, or just picking a few. Regardless, Hardaway is not stacking up with Stockton, Nash, Paul, or Big O for example.

Heatcheck
09-05-2013, 02:01 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=stockjo01&y1=2003&p2=hardati01&y2=2003&p3=nashst01&y3=2013&p4=johnsma02&y4=1996&p5=roberos01&y5=1974&p6=paulch01&y6=2013

Hardaway against some other greats at PG. Factoring in Nash's first 5 years were meh, due to position change early, and developing late, and Hardaway doesn't even remotely stack up statistically.

Considering the people your comparing him to, he's not too far off.

Hardaway was a great player, a little too offensive minded at times, but when your teams top scorer is Alonzo mourning and your second option is Jamal Mashburn, you cant realy blame him for having a quick trigger.

All Nba pg one year, could drive, finish, shoot from the outside, and was a pretty efficient scorer before the first surgery, and most importantly, he was a the definition of a floor general. I think good pure pgs in general, affect the game in a way that cant really be seen in numbers. I know that even on 2 bad knees, we were a whole different team without him on the floor. there was a year where he got hurt in like the 18 or 20th game and we were cruising, soon as he got hurt, everything went to ****.

IKnowHoops
09-05-2013, 02:40 PM
yeah, I flipped over, and it would be hard to pull the guys IKH's is comparing to without lumping a ton of years together, or just picking a few. Regardless, Hardaway is not stacking up with Stockton, Nash, Paul, or Big O for example.

Just take the back to back 20 and 10 seasons and compare them to anyone elses back to back seasons. OR TAKE THE FOUR YEARS FROM 90-91 TO 94-95

Hawkeye15
09-05-2013, 02:43 PM
Just take the back to back 20 and 10 seasons and compare them to anyone elses back to back seasons. OR TAKE THE FOUR YEARS FROM 90-91 TO 94-95

well what does that show? McGrady's best two seasons are better than Kobe's. Doesn't mean he is even remotely on his level.

IKnowHoops
09-05-2013, 10:32 PM
well what does that show? McGrady's best two seasons are better than Kobe's. Doesn't mean he is even remotely on his level.

That is his prime. His Peak years, and because you know his prime was cut short do to a torn ACL, you should cut him a little slack. My whole argument is only about him at his very best, against others at there very best. I think looking at a peak 4 year span, that tells us who was the best at there best. Quite frankly, you could take everyone's best 1 year and that would tell you who was the best at there best. By definition, a players best year is what they were at there best.

IKnowHoops
09-05-2013, 10:43 PM
well what does that show? McGrady's best two seasons are better than Kobe's. Doesn't mean he is even remotely on his level.



OK see this is the problem. What does level mean? All time greatness? Peak Dominance? We all know that a prime Tracy vs. Prime Kobe is basically going to be a back and forth close to even match. Each one will get the better of the other. We both know that Prime Kobe and Prime Tracy will both tear up the league equally. So yes without a doubt, having a season better than Kobe's best season for sure puts you on the same level. Level to me isn't who had the best, and longest career. Level to me is who is the best at there best. That is what this is all about.
Now if your saying even if Kobe's best is not as good as Tmac's best, his career was better and so Tmac is not on his level then I agree with that statement. Kobes career destroys Tmac's career and Tmac's career is no where near the LEVEL of Kobes.

Peak Performance(best at there best) -Definately on the same level
Career- Tracy is nowhere near Kobes level

tredigs
09-05-2013, 11:30 PM
not really. As I said, I think many overrate Stockton, and that is in part because of his longevity and huge numbers over time.

I will pull their primes in a couple minutes instead. But it will hurt Hardaway even further dude.

Have to disagree there, especially considering Malone gets the bulk of the credit as being the leader of that team. We're talking about a guy who was the best playmaker in the game for a decade straight - THROUGH MAGIC'S PRIME - a pretty significantly higher assist% in that era than anyone else. And beyond that, an incredibly efficient scorer who probably would've averaged 23+ a night on 60+ TS% throughout his career if he didn't have the highest scoring PF of all time on his squad. To top it off, a very solid defender. Just an absolute beast who you could depend on to play every. single. night. I can't imagine how this player is overrated.

IKnowHoops
09-06-2013, 12:35 AM
Have to disagree there, especially considering Malone gets the bulk of the credit as being the leader of that team. We're talking about a guy who was the best playmaker in the game for a decade straight - THROUGH MAGIC'S PRIME - a pretty significantly higher assist% in that era than anyone else. And beyond that, an incredibly efficient scorer who probably would've averaged 23+ a night on 60+ TS% throughout his career if he didn't have the highest scoring PF of all time on his squad. To top it off, a very solid defender. Just an absolute beast who you could depend on to play every. single. night. I can't imagine how this player is overrated.

A lot of his efficiency comes from being a smart player. Another large part of it is having the highest scoring PF of all time on your squad drawing double teams everywhere. He was such a great passer that he never had to force his offense and really don't think he has it in him to score like that. His asst would also go down.

I think he would be significantly less efficient on a team in which personnel dictates he be the primary scorer.

tredigs
09-06-2013, 01:26 AM
A lot of his efficiency comes from being a smart player. Another large part of it is having the highest scoring PF of all time on your squad drawing double teams everywhere. He was such a great passer that he never had to force his offense and really don't think he has it in him to score like that. His asst would also go down.

I think he would be significantly less efficient on a team in which personnel dictates he be the primary scorer.

I doubt it, scoring efficiency would drop slightly but he would still be an elite 3pt/FT shooter who could attack various spaces on the court. He was a deferring player, but I have no doubt Stockton could have handled a bigger scoring load as it dictated. We're talking about a guy who scored 17+ in his prime on 60+ TS and never once hit 12 attempts a game. 23 on 60+ TS is a slight stretch, but he could easily score 23 and do it on solid efficiency. Nobody was leaving Stockton and his elite 3pt shooting to cover Malone, they came off Ostertag and companies men. And being arguably the best passer of all time (at the very least top 5), he brings to the table a level of danger that other players just couldn't duplicate when being doubled.

IKnowHoops
09-06-2013, 01:35 AM
I doubt it, scoring efficiency would drop slightly but he would still be an elite 3pt/FT shooter who could attack various spaces on the court. He was a deferring player, but I have no doubt Stockton could have handled a bigger scoring load as it dictated. We're talking about a guy who scored 17+ in his prime on 60+ TS and never once hit 12 attempts a game. 23 on 60+ TS is a slight stretch, but he could easily score 23 and do it on solid efficiency. Nobody was leaving Stockton and his elite 3pt shooting to cover Malone, they came off Ostertag and companies men. And being arguably the best passer of all time (at the very least top 5), he brings to the table a level of danger that other players just couldn't duplicate when being doubled.

Completely fair. I still disagree. He's super cerebral, Ill give him that. I think he played the game the right way. I don't think he really ever forced a shot in his life unless the shot clock was running down.

Chronz
09-06-2013, 10:12 AM
Would you say Nash is a better scorer than Stockton?

IKnowHoops
09-06-2013, 01:44 PM
Would you say Nash is a better scorer than Stockton?

Yes I would. Nash would force shots from time to time. His fall away jumper in your eye was dirty.

skitha67
09-07-2013, 08:00 AM
Ill be civil, before his ACL tear, he could of easily been in top 10, but on my list he doesn't even crack my top 30...

DDynO
09-08-2013, 10:21 PM
Hardaway isn't a top 10 PG. Maybe top 25 - 20.

Tony_Starks
09-09-2013, 12:31 AM
Peak performance is very overrated. I'll take body of work any old day of the week!