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View Full Version : 2013 Mock Offseason Playoffs 2nd round TIEBREAK: 2 Chicago Bulls vs 3 New York Knicks



PatsSoxKnicks
08-29-2013, 10:25 PM
Every summer, PSD holds a game which mocks that year's NBA offseason. This year, users from the site took the reigns of NBA franchises and had to utilize their skills via draft, trades, and free agency to improve their teams. At the end of the game, GMs voted on how they believed the regular season of this game would shake up. These are the playoffs of PSD's 2013 NBA Mock Offseason.

Please take the time to consider each line up, the match-up itself, and vote on which team you believe would win in a seven game series.

The Bulls have homecourt advantage.

Note: The poll will remain open for 1 day. If we do not get to 20 votes within 1 day, I'll ask a mod to extend it another day.

Bulls Depth Chart:

PG: Deron Williams (38) l JJ Barea (10) l Peyton Siva
SG: Thabo Sefolosha (38) l Landry Fields (7) l JJ Barea (3)
SF: Kawhi Leonard (40) l Landry Fields (8) l Teletovic
PF: Al Horford (30) l Brandon Bass (18) l
C: Tim Duncan (38) l Al Horford (10) l Aaron Gray

Knicks Depth Chart:

PG Chris Paul (36) / D.J. Augustin (12) / C.J. McCollum
SG J.R. Smith (33) / Caron Butler (15) / Sergey Karasev
SF Shane Battier (25) / Carmelo Anthony (18) / Caron Butler (5)
PF Carmelo Anthony (20) / Tyler Hansbrough (20) / Kenyon Martin (8) / Channing Frye
C Tyson Chandler (32) / Kenyon Martin (16)

Bulls Write-up:



We Would like to congratulate MBT and KOB for reaching this round of the playoffs and a job well done

Offensively we feel that we will be able to run our game effectively and efficiently. The only real above average defender starting for the Knicks is Tyson Chandler and while he is very good outside of him there are a couple average defenders and some poor defenders. Shane Battier is not what he once was defensively and Melo and JR both struggling on this end of the floor will lead to us getting baskets. Here are some numbers showing how some of the current Knicks were defensively last year:

Shane Battier- .86PPP overall defensively ranking 169th, .86PPP on Iso's ranking 205th, .93PPP on spot up ranking 133rd (0.1 RAPM)

Chris Paul- .83PPP overall defensively ranking 107th, .81PPP Iso ranking 158th, 1.01 PPP spot up ranking 231st (0.5 RAPM)

Carmelo Anthony- .87PPP overall ranking 195th, .86PPP on Isos ranking 234th, 1.02 PPP on spot up defense ranking 240th, (-1.7 RAPM)

Caron Butler- .96PPP overall defensively ranking 393rd, 1.03PPP on Iso's ranking 310th, 1.14 PPP on spot ups ranking 353rd (-1.5 RAPM)

As you can tell, not only will their close out defense on our shooters be bad, because they all arenít good against spot up shooting, but they all canít defend our players 1 on 1. This is going to leave us with tons of open looks and easy baskets. Not to mention how significantly better our rebounding as a whole group is compared to theirs. Every player on our team can space the floor and effectively and consistently knock down jumpers.

Whether its Thabo, Deron or Kawhi hitting open 3ís, which Thabo knocked down at a 41% clip, Kawhi at a 37% clip and bumped it up to 39% the whole playoffs while averaging about 2 a game, and Deron who averaged an amazing 40% on about 6 attempts per game in these past playoffs is just bad news for the Knicks. Add those percentages to go along with the Knicks horrible rebounding, one of which Melo averages about 6.7 boards per 36, which for a PF is brutal. Then the supporting cast of Paul, Battier, J.R Smith and Butler not being above average rebounders either is going to be a massive headache because of all the extra possessions we are going to consistently get. While Tyson is a good rebounder, we boast Duncan who averaged 10 a game, Horford who averaged 10.2 a game, and Kawhi Leonard who averaged 7.2 per 36 minutes in the regular season and in the finals averaged about 11 rebounds a game against a Heat squad that featured good rebounders in Wade, Lebron and Bosh. We also feel that we will have the ability to get out on the fast break as well because we are going to have a big rebounding advantage. This will lead to fast break opportunities when required and also 2nd chance points which will play a major role in this series. In transition, he's (Kawhi) an excellent 37th, and on cuts he's 98th which is quite respectable.
Both Deron Williams and Thabo Sefolosha had career highs in WS/48. Sefolosha having a .49 better WS/48 than any other year he's been in the league, while Deron Williams surpassed even his playing level from his Utah Jazz days. To continue on Williams, when Deron Williams and Chris Paul face off in Head2Head games over the course of their careers, they both average 16 PPG. The catch? Paul has shot 43% and 29% from 3 in those games, while Deron Williams has shot a high 50% and a respectable 37% from 3. To add to it, Deron Williams is 14-5 in his career against Chris Paul.

Tyson Chandler is coming off a brutal playoffs that had him firstly bullied down by an older, declining Kevin Garnett (which doesn't seem to be the case with Duncan). Then against an elite PF/C combo in Indiana, he averaged 6 rebounds per game, with an average of 4.8 fouls in 29 minutes. If this is what Tyson Chandler was able to do against a declining Kevin Garnett (something I must add is that the Celtics had no depth at all in the frontcourt, leaving it a tired Garnett at that) and one of the better PF/C combo's in the league,what is he supposed to do against Al Horford and Tim Duncan? With little help next to him I might add?

Our plan is to do a lot of pick and roll to bring Chandler away from the rim whether that be with Al Horford or Tim Duncan who have both shown the ability to play well in the pick and roll and whoever Tyson isnít guarding will be able to post up either Battier or Melo. Take for example Al Horford ranks 15th in the NBA on points scored per play on pick-and-rolls, making 59 of 96 (62 percent). Then we have our primary ball handler and while people may be writing him off, last year he was very good offensively obtaining an Offensive RAPM of 5.1, 9.1 Offensive Win Shares, and a TS% of .574 which is higher than Carmeloís who many believe had an amazing offensive year.

One last thing as I have said it before, efficiency will be huge for us. Here is the TS% of each of our guys last year
Deron Williams: .574
Thabo Sefolosha: .617
Kawhi Leonard: .592
Al Horford: .560
Tim Duncan: .554

So we would like to ask, since the Knicks players will be inefficient offensively and get destroyed defensively against our extremely efficient and balanced offensive and defensive attack, how do they plan on winning this series?

Our defensive game plan to start is to have Thabo Sefolosha guard Chris Paul. Since 2012 in Head2Head games between these two, other than one game in which Paul managed to drop 31 points on 11-20 shooting, his shooting wasn't exactly what you'd expect from the superstar.

**Take Note of the percentages carefully.

The other games he shot 3-12, 5-12, 2-14 and 8-21 from the field. As you can tell extremely inefficient, and not something you would expect from Paul, is it?
Another critical point to keep in mind is, when Melo is primarily handling the ball and CP3 is expected to play of the ball, this is another factor that plays a huge advantage in our favor. CP3 shot a whopping 32% from beyond the arc last year, this held true, come playoff time to because he averaged the same while attempting about 3 a game.

Other than putting one of the best perimeter defenders on Paul, this allows us to have Kawhi Leonard primarily focus on Carmelo Anthony. Leonard has the size, and speed to keep up with Anthony. In a limited sample size be, take it for what you will but definitely can hold true because everyone saw how inefficient Kawhi made Lebron, so imagine a player like Melo. As it's known league wide, Kawhi Leonard and Paul George have a similar skillset. In the playoffs, George's defense on Anthony was a big reason why the Pacers were able to eliminate the Knicks from the playoffs this past year.
In the three games theyíve faced of, these are the following numbers Melo posted with Kawhi defending him.
19.7 PPG, 7 RPG, while shooting 43% on 19 shots attempted and averaged about 3 FTAís and shot that at a 67% clip. Another key note to take in Melo averaged about 3 Fouls in that span.

If thatís not good enough defense, then we have another Melo stopper in Brandon Bass, of the bench whoís coming of an amazing playoff showing guarding Melo and the main reason why the Celtics had a glimmer of hope against the Knicks.

This gives us the chance to always have someone guard Anthony throughout the series. Whether it's when someone needs rest, gets into foul trouble or is just struggling in general. We have two players that have the ability and size to guard him effectively. If Kawhi Leonard, and Brandon Bass for the matter, can hold him to a similar shooting percentage, we like our chances in this series. More importantly, if we manage to make Carmelo struggle like we feel we can, we have no question that Carmelo would get frustrated. And what his frustration has shown in the pass is that it leads him to shoot more. We can't imagine this would be good chemistry with Chris Paul. As much of a team friendly, pass first player Paul is, he's going to have to be just as much of a score first player as Carmelo Anthony.

As seen in the past, J.R. Smith cannot be trusted as a legitimate scoring option. He's as streaky as they come and is known as a "chucker" as most would say. In fact, if the Knicks decide to start him like they did in their previous series against the Celtics, we believe this plays into our favor. Starting a 6th man who has had a mentality throughout his career of coming in only for scoring purposes is always a recipe for disaster and devalues the Knicks team as a whole, because then they donít have a proven scorer to provide a spark offensively of the bench from the perimeter and down low.

As for our bigs, we intend to have Al Horford guard Shane Battier. We realize that Tim Duncan has the better ability to play outside, but we also know Shane Battier cannot, and will not beat us with his speed and that he's nothing more than a jumpshooter offensively. We feel comfortable with leaving one of our bigs out on the perimeter with his size, and length to guard a shooter.
Not to mention, Shane Battier at this point in his career is not a starter, not to mention he averaged 24 minutes the last year, and that doesnít even tell the whole story because those numbers werenít accumulated over a full season. Heís played 23, 65 and 72 games the past 3 years and even in these past playoffs got benched a lot. Not to mention these past playoffs he only played an average of 17 minutes. If a team like the Heat who love spacing for Wade and Lebron, didnít give Battier substantial minutes, then how can he be expected to be counted upon for this series against a team where he canít be hid without having his declining defense exposed and lack of offensive explosion?

Having Horford guard Battier leaves us with the chance to have Tim Duncan stay in the paint to be the defensive presence that he is in case Carmelo Anthony, J.R. Smith or Chris Paul are able to get past any of Thabo Sefolosha, Kawhi Leonard, Deron Williams or Brandon Bass. And no, as good of an alley-oop target Tyson Chandler can be, we're not worried about his offensive game. And to say he used to be a double-double machine with Chris Paul is foolish. Last time they played together Tyson Chandler was 26, while Chris Paul was in the prime of his career. That's not to say Paul's not in his prime today. But what he was able to do those years were truly something special and something he hasnít repeated for a while now.

Now when we go to the bench, we feel we have nothing to worry about. Caron Butler was really something else last year. He showed the ability to shoot the 3, but overall was really horrific last year. His defense was beyond awful, but we'll talk about that in other parts. Then you have D.J. Augustin, who shot 35% last year. We don't expect to see much of him anyway, seeing how Paul is in front of him and his inability to play SG.
Tyler Hansbrough is nothing more than a hustle guy. He's never proven to be a consistent option anywhere. His career 36% in the playoffs is nothing to get excited about. Maybe he can hustle his was into some rebounds, as his team will need it. Having Battier or Anthony play PF against Al Horford and Tim Duncan is sure to go against you on the boards. As for Kenyon Martin, we see nothing offensively and a body the Knicks are going to use once Tyson, Melo, Battier or Caron are to get into foul trouble. As you can see the depth the Knicks have is awful because there is no offensive spark to be provided of the bench and should their top scoring options get shut down or get into foul trouble, where is the offense consistently going to come from?

We on the other hand have JJ. Barea, proven 6th man who was a key cog of the bench for the Mavs against the Heat, the year they won the title. Brandon Bass as a high calibre bench big that can play the SF, PF or even C spot at times, that provides really solid defense and a good PnR mid range jump shot.

Knicks Write-up:



The Bulls GMís have done a phenomenal job and both teams have had their share of had friendly jabs in anticipation of this matchup, but this Knicks team has multiple, significant advantages which makes New York the clear choice in a hard-fought series.

1. Play-Making and Perimeter Shooting: We have a slight advantage in the latter and a significant advantage in the former. The Knicks roster provides four legitimate 3-point shooting threats in the starting lineup alone (Paul, Smith, Battier and Melo) with good spot-up shooters like Butler, Augustin and Frye off the bench. Their pinpoint perimeter shooting will consistently spread the floor, providing Paul opportunities to penetrate on the slower Deron Williams and Melo chances to work his mid-range game and beat Horford off the dribble. The Bulls starters from PG-SF provide floor spacing on the perimeter, but their bench is severely lacking, as Barea is the only significant bench player who can shoot from beyond the arc consistently. Our shooters also have more confidence beyond the arc, as we possess four players in the top 40 in made 3-pointers last season, while the Bulls possess only one guy in the top 50 (Williams).

Play-making between the two clubs is a clear advantage in the Knicks favor, as Chris Paul is not only the best PG in the league today, but one of the greatest in league history. He has made All-Defensive 1st team and All-NBA 1st team each of the last two seasons while ranking in the top 5 in MVP shares both seasons and top 3 in PER. While his play-making skills are rarely matched, our biggest selling point in acquiring his services was he would run our offense in New York rather than carry it. He realized with reigning scoring champ Carmelo Anthony and 6th Man of the Year JR Smith at his side, he would have other play-makers capable of lightening the load and allowing him to reach his optimum performance. Both are capable of facilitating and scoring, posting in the top 32 in USG% last season with AST% over 14.0. Meanwhile, besides Deron Williams, the Bulls are in bad shape. Barea ranked 309th in the NBA in offensive production last season. So, where do the Bulls turn next? Certainly not Landry Fields, who was ranked even worse at 323rd in the NBA. Thabo is merely a spot-up shooter at 7ppg, and neither he or Leonard average even 2 assists per game or posted an AST% over 8.2 last season. To ask them to facilitate would drastically diminish their effectiveness. The Bulls have only one play-maker in Deron Williams, who will be bothered by exceptional All-NBA 1st team defender Chris Paul, who allowed only 39% shooting to opposing players and forced point guards to commit 4.6 TO per 48 minutes last season.

2. Point Guard Play - While Deron and CP3 were neck and neck early in their careers for title of best point guard, Paul has clearly distanced himself. Since 2011, heís also drastically outplayed him in their limited head to head matchups. Deron has not shot over 42% in a game against Paul since 2010, while Paul shot better than 45% in all four contests. In those four games, Paul averaged 19 points, 10 assists, 5.25 rebounds, 2.5 steals and 3 turnovers a game compared to 15 points, 8 assists, 3.25 rebounds, 1.67 steals and 3.25 turnovers for Williams. Paul not only dominated in every statistical category, but he outscored, outassisted and outshot Williams in all four contests. The most recent was a dominant 29-point, 11-assist victory against Williamsí Nets March 23 of this year, a 5-point victory in which Williams committed five fouls and Paul went to the line 13 times. When you factor in that Deron is forced to carry so much more of the load in this series, this matchup becomes even more lopsided in favor of the Knicks.

3. Who guards Carmelo? This question is relevant in every series, because Melo in his prime. He had his most efficient season (24.8 PER, .184 WS/48, 56% TS%), leading the league in scoring while facing more double and triple teams than ever before. Itís especially relevant here, because the playing Anthony at PF allows him to exploit slower bigs like Al Horford. Horford is a center, and his defensive numbers as a center were very strong. However, he gave up an atrocious 19.0 PER to opposing PFs last season and plays zero minutes against SFs, a position Melo has the speed and athleticism to play. Horford will not be able to keep up with him on the perimeter, as he has never guarded Melo in head-to-head matchups. Melo torched Horfordís Hawks for 40 and 42 points last season while being guarded by the far superior defender in Josh Smith. If, as a help defender, Horford canít stop Melo from exploding for 40, how can he be expected to guard him man-to-man?

The Bulls may switch Leonard on Melo at times, but that puts their 6í10Ē center in the corner guarding a spot-up shooter like Shane Battier. Horford was terrible in that situation, as he was ranked 253rd in guarding spot-ups last season. Should the Bulls put Leonard on Melo, Kawhi played by far his worst defense guarding the power forward position last year. According to 82games, he was actually outplayed at PF with a PER of 13.9 for Leonard and 16.0 PER for opponents. In addition, Leonardís biggest weakness as a defender is that he ranked an extremely disappointing 239th guarding post-ups. This is a huge advantage for Carmelo, because he took 470 post-ups this season and ranked 33rd in the NBA, even better than his PF counterpart Al Horford. Melo can exploit Horford with his speed off the dribble or bully Leonard down low on the block. Either way itís a huge edge for the Knicksí offense.

4. Surprising Mismatches (or Lack thereof?) Ė The Knicks pick and roll play was very effective with Tyson Chandler continuing historic levels of efficient production, leading the league in TS% again with Raymond Felton at PG. Itís no secret our pick and roll play would improve with Paul, perhaps one of the greatest pick and roll creators in the history of the NBA and a player who thrived with Chandler in New Orleans. The Bullsí best option to stop us, Tim Duncan, was merely a mediocre pick and roll defender last season. Duncan allows opposing bigs to shoot 55% on pick and roll man attempts of which Chandler already shoots 68%. On the other end, one might assume Horford would have his way with Melo in the post, but Carmelo Anthony is a solid 235 pounds and ranked an elite 16th overall in defending the post last season. Opposing bigs only shot 40-113 in the post on him for a putrid 35.4%. Coming off a series guarding the perimeter minded Patrick Patterson in Round 1, Melo will be fresh and ready to go at PF. Ironically Meloís PPP in the post tied him with Tyson Chandler was also ranked 16th in the NBA in defending the post. He only allowed players to shoot 35.6% on post-ups vs. him last season. This former DPOY from 2012 would be able to limit their interior production significantly.

5. Bench Depth Ė DJ Augustin was one of the most efficient players in the postseason for the Pacers, Caron Butler was a starter for the playoff Clippers, Tyler Hansbrough was a rotation player and ranked in the top 25 defensively for the Pacers and Kenyon Martin averaged 7ppg/5rpg shooting 60% while playing key rotation minutes for the playoff Knicks. This bench is clear, experienced and fits this roster like a glove. Meanwhile, the Bulls bench leaves a lot to be desired. Landry Fields posted an awful 10.3 PER and .052 WS/48, and will be required to play too many minutes thanks to the Bullsí lack of wing depth. Aaron Gray barely played at all for a bad Raptors team last season, and heíll also be asked to play far too many minutes behind an aging Duncan. Barea is their best offensive player off the bench, and posted a horrid 51% TS% a season ago, and Brandon just posted his lowest PER and WS/48 since 2007 and a career low in TRB% (11.2). Our bench played significant minutes for playoff teams, while the Bullsí bench consists of guys who played limited minutes for lottery teams.

6. Clutch Delivery Ė Undoubtedly there will be some tight games in this series, and you have to ask yourself a simple question: Who is more likely to come through at the end of a game? Chris Paul or Deron Williams? Carmelo Anthony or Tim Duncan? We not only have one elite option, but we have arguably two of the best in the league at closing out games. Deron Williams shot a horrific 27% from the field in clutch situations last season. Duncan wasnít even in the top 40 in scoring in clutch situations. Melo and Paul give the Knicks two deadly performers who can play off each other, hit big shots and pull the Knicks to victory in close games.

7. Chemistry - This Knicks core was purposefully not overhauled, because it was already a 54-win team that played extremely well together. JR Smith, Carmelo, Tyson and Kenyon are all back. The only true roster changes were the addition of clutch contributor Shane Battier and the upgrade of Raymond Felton to Chris Paul. The same Chris Paul who turned Tyson Chandler into a double-double machine in New Orleans and won a gold medal with both Carmelo Anthony and Tyson Chandler at the last Olympics. They have been surrounded by glue veterans that either provide defense (Hansbrough), shooting (Butler, Augustin and Frye) or both (Shane Battier). Meanwhile, this Chicago team has 0 returning rotation players. Are we supposed to believe that overnight they would develop into a championship contending team?

There is no denying the talent-level of either one of these teams. However, when you break down this matchup to its crucial elements: shooting, play-making, defensive mismatches, depth, clutch production, and chemistry, one team clearly rises to the top. That team is the Knicks. Good luck to Chicago, but we confidently believe New York deserves to advance to the Eastern Conference Finals.

mightybosstone
08-29-2013, 10:27 PM
Holy ****! Carmelo Anthony and Chris Paul on the same team!?!?! Clearly they would win this series!

Edit: And they would earn second place in a "best looking teammates" contest behind KOB, sep and that other sexy mo fo they're partnered with.

Eagles4Lyfe
08-29-2013, 10:35 PM
Very nicely built team Bulls GM's.
That team looks so yummy

MTar786
08-29-2013, 10:39 PM
this was a really hard decision for me. but i say bulls in 7. 2 reasons. one is the hca and the other is lack of depth (if any) at the 4 spot for the kncks, duncan and horford cannot be contained by chandler alone. also shane battier is a great defender and all.. but hes not really needed in this series. he has no one to guard. hes not a good matchup for leonard either. leonard is the perfect guy to put up against melo also.

ps this bulls team has to be a legendary defensive team

mightybosstone
08-29-2013, 10:39 PM
For those who did not read it earlier, I'd like to reiterate a point my brilliant co-GM made about the Bulls playing their defenders out of position. Here's what KOB posted in the previous thread:


What's pretty big to me is the fact that the Bulls are literally mis-using EVERY SINGLE PLAYER of theirs in their defenses matchups Greet.

Thabo Sefolosha on CP3 - Thabo who ranked 342nd in defensive PPP per Synergy last season will be guarding a position that according to 82games he didn't even guard. The Thunder have good defensive PGs which is why Thabo was always used on perimeter players. Now the Bulls are forcing him to put pressure on the best PG in the NBA and guard pick and rolls all game. Mismatch

Deron on JR Smith - Deron ranked 107th in defensive PPP last season. Not bad. What were the only measures of defense that he ranked worse in? That would be 255th in isolation plays and 337th guarding spot-up shooters. Where do the Bulls put him? On JR Smith who ranked in the top 100 in both isolation scoring (58th!) and spot-up shooting (87th) where he shot 38% on 3's in spot-up players. That's his strength as a scorer.

Al Horford on Shane Battier - Horford ranked 119th in defensive PPP last season. Where was his biggest weakness? It's his ability to defend spot-up shooters and it wasn't even close. He ranked 253rd in the league. Where do the Bulls put him? On our best spot-up shooter Shane Battier who ranked 25th in the NBA and ripped the net 139-329 threes at a blistering 42.2% from 3pt.

Kawhi Leonard on Carmelo Anthony - Leonard ranked 87th in defensive PPP last season. Where was his biggest weakness? By far it was his ability to guard the post ranking 239th in the league. Where do the Bulls put him? On the Knicks best post-up player Carmelo Anthony who ranked 33rd in the nba in post-up scoring last season.

Tim Duncan on Tyson Chandler - Duncan ranked 226th in defensive PPP last season. His worst defense was defending spot-up shooting. Where was his 2nd worst defense? Defending the pick and roll allowing opposing roll players to shoot 55% on pick and roll. Where do the Bulls put him? On arguably the most efficient pick and roll big man in the NBA Tyson Chandler who shot 67% on pick and roll players and that was with one of the worst starting point guards in the NBA not Chris Paul.

Literally every matchup they've turned their players strengths into weaknesses that the Knicks can exploit on offense.

Every person voting in this matchup should READ THIS FIRST.

Eagles4Lyfe
08-29-2013, 10:43 PM
this was a really hard decision for me. but i say bulls in 7. 2 reasons. one is the hca and the other is lack of depth (if any) at the 4 spot for the kncks, duncan and horford cannot be contained by chandler alone. also shane battier is a great defender and all.. but hes not really needed in this series. he has no one to guard. hes not a good matchup for leonard either. leonard is the perfect guy to put up against melo also.

ps this bulls team has to be a legendary defensive team


Thank you sir
I agree our defensive philosophy would stifle them. They can hide and downplay and say this ridiculous were playing players out of position crap but everyone knows teams don't always defend position for position. You put the best defensive players accordingly.

mightybosstone
08-29-2013, 10:46 PM
this was a really hard decision for me. but i say bulls in 7. 2 reasons. one is the hca and the other is lack of depth (if any) at the 4 spot for the kncks, duncan and horford cannot be contained by chandler alone. also shane battier is a great defender and all.. but hes not really needed in this series. he has no one to guard. hes not a good matchup for leonard either. leonard is the perfect guy to put up against melo also.

No depth at the 4? We have absolutely superior front court depth to the Bulls. Hansbrough was an above average bench big last season, posting a 15.3 PER, .154 WS/48 and 15.2 TRB%, while allowing opposing PFs only a 13.1 PER and opposing centers a 9.3 PER. On the flip side, Bass posted a 12.3 PER, a .101 WS/48 (both his lowest numbers since 2007) and a career low 11.2 TRB% while allowing an atrocious 16.4 PER to opposing PFs and a 22.5 PER to opposing centers. Not only are we not concerned about depth at PF, we think we have a far deeper back court and overall team than the Bulls.

mightybosstone
08-29-2013, 10:48 PM
Thank you sir
I agree our defensive philosophy would stifle them. They can hide and downplay and say this ridiculous were playing players out of position crap but everyone knows teams don't always defend position for position. You put the best defensive players accordingly.

Most teams also don't play every single defender on their roster out of position. And we're not the only ones who think you guys dropped the ball with your defensive philosophy. Several posters agreed with us in the other thread, Hawkeye included.

Eagles4Lyfe
08-29-2013, 10:48 PM
You have a deeper team on the starting 5? But your starting a 6th man at SG and a guy who didn't even get consistent minutes last year both in the season and playoffs?
We have players who actually consistently played, started and logged heavy minutes in our starting 5.

MTar786
08-29-2013, 10:48 PM
i have the lakers and bulls in the finals. (my opinion)

as much as id want the lakers to win.. i see the bulls winning on sick defense

Killerjug
08-29-2013, 10:50 PM
i have the lakers and bulls in the finals. (my opinion)

as much as id want the lakers to win.. i see the bulls winning on sick defense

this guy knows

Eagles4Lyfe
08-29-2013, 10:52 PM
Most teams also don't play every single defender on their roster out of position. And we're not the only ones who think you guys dropped the ball with your defensive philosophy. Several posters agreed with us in the other thread, Hawkeye included.

Several posters also said you'd get murked on the boards and that your starting 5 doesn't fit and have balance.

Your guys biggest argument against our team is Chemistry ( which in a game like this shouldn't even be highly factored in, because you guys are using the damn olympics as an example, might as well bring up the all star game while your at it) and that were starting players out of position.

You've practically admitted your defense is horrible based of just ignoring your defensive game plans. You've only made some hypothetical situations that we've never even outlined in our write ups.

Duncan is guarding a center last time I checked.



i have the lakers and bulls in the finals. (my opinion)

as much as id want the lakers to win.. i see the bulls winning on sick defense

You are my new hero..

mightybosstone
08-29-2013, 10:55 PM
You have a deeper team on the starting 5? But your starting a 6th man at SG and a guy who didn't even get consistent minutes last year both in the season and playoffs?
We have players who actually consistently played, started and logged heavy minutes in our starting 5.

lol..... Ripping us for starting a guy who won sixth man of the year is pretty ridiculous. If you're insulting Smith as a starter, I could just as easily laugh at you starting Sefolosha. And rip on Battier all you want to, but the guy played significant minutes on back-to-back champions, shot a ridiculous 43% from beyond the arc in the regular season and shot a ridiculous 75% from beyond the arc in both Games 6 and 7 of the NBA Finals last year (both elimination games).

Eagles4Lyfe
08-29-2013, 10:58 PM
lol..... Ripping us for starting a guy who won sixth man of the year is pretty ridiculous. If you're insulting Smith as a starter, I could just as easily laugh at you starting Sefolosha. And rip on Battier all you want to, but the guy played significant minutes on back-to-back champions, shot a ridiculous 43% from beyond the arc in the regular season and shot a ridiculous 75% from beyond the arc in both Games 6 and 7 of the NBA Finals last year (both elimination games).

That's funny because last time I checked Sefolosha starts and plays way more minutes than Battier.
How many games did JR Smith start last year? Maybe since you say i post fake stats you can check the real stats for me and prove me right;)..

Also Battier played an average of 17 sparatic minutes per game in the playoffs, thats significant minutes to you?

mightybosstone
08-29-2013, 11:02 PM
Several posters also said you'd get murked on the boards and that your starting 5 doesn't fit and have balance.
How does our starting five not fit? We have as strong a team offensively as there is in this game, would spread your defense out like John Holmes would a virgin and our squad is like last year's Knicks (a second seeded team in the East) on steroids.


Your guys biggest argument against our team is Chemistry ( which in a game like this shouldn't even be highly factored in, because you guys are using the damn olympics as an example, might as well bring up the all star game while your at it) and that were starting players out of position.
Are you really comparing the weeks that teams prepare and play international ball every year to one drunken All-Star weekend out of the year? That's pretty ****** logic, bro.


You've practically admitted your defense is horrible based of just ignoring your defensive game plans. You've only made some hypothetical situations that we've never even outlined in our write ups
lol.... That's a bit of a stretch. And as I've said multiple times, we took a Knicks team that was 7th in the league defensively last season, removed one plus defender at SG and added plus defenders at PG and SF. You can argue this all you want, but facts are facts.


Duncan is guarding a center last time I checked.
That's right. I should have given you credit for getting one defensive assignment right out of five. Hey, that's 20%! That's certainly a better percentage than Landry Fields shot from beyond the arc last season! How many minutes is he getting in your lineup, again? ;)

(*Hint* If the answer is higher than zero, then your answer is too high.)

roshan3ai
08-29-2013, 11:02 PM
That's funny because last time I checked Sefolosha starts and plays way more minutes than Battier.
How many games did JR Smith start last year? Maybe since you say i post fake stats you can check the real stats for me and prove me right;)..

Also Battier played an average of 17 sparatic minutes per game in the playoffs, thats significant minutes to you?

Battier: 25 MPG
Thabo: 27 MPG
Smith: 33MPG

Sixth man of the year starting and a guy who played only two minutes less than beloved Thabo is what you're bashing? That's weak.

mightybosstone
08-29-2013, 11:11 PM
That's funny because last time I checked Sefolosha starts and plays way more minutes than Battier. How many games did JR Smith start last year? Maybe since you say i post fake stats you can check the real stats for me and prove me right;)...
Who gives a **** how many games Smith started? Kyle Singler started 74 out of 82 games last season. Is he a better basketball player than guys like Smith and Jarrett Jack? I think you'll be hard pressed to find anyone who agrees with you. Smith's numbers dwarf Sefolosha's in almost every relevant statistical category. If "Sefolosha is better because he starts more games" is the best argument you've got left, then you're really scraping the bottom of the barrel.


Also Battier played an average of 17 sparatic minutes per game in the playoffs, thats significant minutes to you?
It was the seventh most minutes on a team that won an NBA championship, and he was getting sporadic minutes because his shot wasn't falling. And you make him sound like we're playing him 35 minutes a game, which isn't the case at all. Unlike your squad, we actually have depth and don't have to play every one of our guys 38-40 minutes per night. Also, I haven't brought this up much yet, but playing Duncan and Horford that many minutes is a recipe for disaster. And should one of them get in foul trouble, you're going to have major issues defending our front court.

Eagles4Lyfe
08-29-2013, 11:15 PM
How does our starting five not fit? We have as strong a team offensively as there is in this game, would spread your defense out like John Holmes would a virgin and our squad is like last year's Knicks (a second seeded team in the East) on steroids.

That's cute
CP3 shot 32% beyond the arc last year
JR Smith shot 36%
N Listen to this one folks. This Shane Battier guy you guys keep hyping up as a floor spreader shot a whopping 30% in the playoffs from beyond the arc.
Do you guys want to try that spacing stuff again?

This is how you spread the floor out folks.
Deron Williams 40% with 6 attempts a game in the playoffs
Thabo Sefolosha shot 42% from beyond the arc
Kawhi Leonard 39% in the playoffs from behind the arc.
:drool:
Did I forget to mention AL Horford and his great shooting %'s from PnR's??

Rethink that one over there jimmy



Are you really comparing the weeks that teams prepare and play international ball every year to one drunken All-Star weekend out of the year? That's pretty ****** logic, bro.
It's about as hilarious as your logic of using the damn olympics as a measure of chemistry lmao.


lol.... That's a bit of a stretch. And as I've said multiple times, we took a Knicks team that was 7th in the league defensively last season, removed one plus defender at SG and added plus defenders at PG and SF. You can argue this all you want, but facts are facts.
Wait who is this above average SF defender on your team?
Are you referring to this one?
Shane Battier- .86PPP overall defensively ranking 169th, .86PPP on Iso's ranking 205th, .93PPP on spot up ranking 133rd (0.1 RAPM)
or are you referring to this one?
Caron Butler- .96PPP overall defensively ranking 393rd, 1.03PPP on Iso's ranking 310th, 1.14 PPP on spot ups ranking 353rd (-1.5 RAPM)

Either of those are above average?? OOkay



That's right. I should have given you credit for getting one defensive assignment right out of five. Hey, that's 20%! That's certainly a better percentage than Landry Fields shot from beyond the arc last season! How many minutes is he getting in your lineup, again? ;)
Oh ya because we definitely factored or mentioned him in our game plan :laugh:
Keep clutching straws.

N Al horford defending Battier, is like any PF defending a stretch PF, that's immobile and can't create their own shot.



Battier: 25 MPG
Thabo: 27 MPG
Smith: 33MPG

Sixth man of the year starting and a guy who played only two minutes less than beloved Thabo is what you're bashing? That's weak.

Maybe you should've read his post clearly. He said he played significant minutes on the back to back champions.
He played 17 minutes in the playoffs and they weren't consistent, they were sporadic.
Sefolosha played 27 minutes in the playoffs.

Why did you post JR Smiths :confused:

mightybosstone
08-29-2013, 11:21 PM
As much as I've enjoyed arguing in this battle, I must go to sleep. I will also probably be gone all day tomorrow and most of the evening because I'm swamped at work. For those who voted for us in the previous thread, I hope you'll do so again, and I hope to come home tomorrow to find out that we've won.

Regardless, let me just say what a fantastic series this has been either way. KoB has been a phenomenal co-GM to go to battle with, and the Bulls GMs have been exceptional opponents. Do I feel like we have the better basketball team? Of course, and it's unfortunate that we had to face each other in the second round when clearly this should have been the ECF matchup.

But this has been a lot of fun, and if this is my last PSD game postseason, I'm glad I get to go out on a high note, battling in a series this close. It reminds me why I started doing these games in the first place, and I'll have fond memories of doing this with you guys. It's been a blast. Thanks to everyone for making my wasted team seem worthwhile.

Killerjug
08-29-2013, 11:23 PM
As much as I've enjoyed arguing in this battle, I must go to sleep. I will also probably be gone all day tomorrow and most of the evening because I'm swamped at work. For those who voted for us in the previous thread, I hope you'll do so again, and I hope to come home tomorrow to find out that we've won.

Regardless, let me just say what a fantastic series this has been either way. KoB has been a phenomenal co-GM to go to battle with, and the Bulls GMs have been exceptional opponents. Do I feel like we have the better basketball team? Of course, and it's unfortunate that we had to face each other in the second round when clearly this should have been the ECF matchup.

But this has been a lot of fun, and if this is my last PSD game postseason, I'm glad I get to go out on a high note, battling in a series this close. It reminds me why I started doing these games in the first place, and I'll have fond memories of doing this with you guys. It's been a blast. Thanks to everyone for making my wasted team seem worthwhile.

Agreed win or lose it's been awesome seeing arguments and just think 4,000 views on the last thread unbelievable.

KnicksorBust
08-29-2013, 11:29 PM
Can't believe the Bulls are still using those terrible false stats about Thabo guarding CP3. Even though Thabo doesn't guard opposing PGs, Westbrook clearly does. The Bulls seem to think H2H finder on bball ref magically puts stats from when players of different positions guard each other. :laugh:

Hawkeye on Thabo guarding CP3: "He'd be out of the game in 7 minutes... because of foul trouble."

PatsSoxKnicks
08-29-2013, 11:36 PM
Ultimately the reasons I chose the Knicks is because 1) CP3 is just a huge advantage to have on a team, he makes his teammates much better and his impact on the game is just far superior to anyone not named LBJ and Durant (check his RAPMs over the last bunch of years). In addition, it has been well established that his teams actually play better in the clutch. Not Chris Paul himself, his teams'. (http://www.nba.com/2011/news/features/john_schuhmann/01/27/hornets-chris-paul-clutch/index.html) For most, clutch win loss records can be statistical anomalies. Not for CP3's teams.

2) With that being said, to have a star like Carmelo, who absolutely would benefit from Chris Paul is another major factor. I don't buy that Carmelo can't play with CP3 arguments either because frankly, I'm not sure there's a single player in the league who can't play with CP3. His game and more importantly, his pass first playmaking style in addition with his ability to hit a spot up shot would help any player, star or not. Not to mention that Carmelo played with a bunch of talented teammates in the olympics and proved he could be a team guy.

3) This leads to my next point, assuming the games are close, I'll take the team with Carmelo and CP3 down the stretch. And with the talent on both sides, I think we'd have a ton of close games 4) While I'm making this seem a lot about CP3 and Carmelo, I like the Knicks bench better and honestly, that might just be the difference for me. And it's not like either bench is that great either. But a key is the fact that Butler shot 38% from 3 this past year and over the last 3 years has shot 38% (so it's not a 1 year aberration). He's still by no means what he used to be but there's no denying he was much better last year. As another 3 point threat off the bench, he could come in for JR (if his shot isn't going, which will happen at some point) and provide another 3 point shooter. In fact, I honestly am not even sure how much I like the fact that JR is starting. I'd prefer Butler starting, though I understand why he's not. Anyways, my point here would be the fact that the Knicks can roll out 4 3 point shooters and Tyson. This would help both Paul and Anthony a ton and the spacing would lead to some great offense.

In regards to the Bulls bench, Landry Fields sucks now. He had such a promising start to his career but he provides no offense and no spacing. 15 minutes of Fields will undoubtedly kill the Bulls and in a bunch of close games, that could definitely be a deciding factor. I can buy a low usage player like Battier helping an offense because he can shoot the 3 but someone like Fields is literally utterly useless (http://stats.nba.com/playerShotchart.html?PlayerID=202361) on the offensive end (that's an ugly looking shot chart, even near the hoop he's barely hitting half his shots). Now in regards to Barea, I honestly love him cause he went to the same college I went to. And he's a decent role player off the bench but he's backing up Deron, so he honestly won't get many minutes.

Another thing I don't buy is Duncan playing 38 minutes a game. He didn't even average that much in the NBA Finals against the superteam Heat so I don't see that happening here either. And while he can give you 40+ mins a game here or there, over the course of the series, he's going to need some rest. In that case, I assume Horford would move over to Center and Bass at PF. Bass did a good job on Melo in the playoffs but I thought that was more about Melo and less about Bass' defense. An issue I don't see him having here with CP3 as a teammate. Another issue I feel Duncan's P&R defense has slowed a bit (synergy numbers back me up here, think he ranked 100+) and I think a CP3 + Tyson P&R combination would (and was) lethal. Also, since we're assuming health here, I assume Tyson isn't the injured player he was in the playoffs this past year. Though admittedly, he's always had issues with injuries in the past. That's the other part of the Bulls argument I don't buy. Eagles is acting like Tyson is a scrub on defense when the guy played hurt in the postseason. Did he have trouble with Hibbert? Yes. Could he have trouble with Duncan? Yes. Is Duncan going to drop 30+ on him consistently? Definitely not.

One thing I will say though is Duncan's overall impact (offense + defense) is enough to push this series in the Bulls favor. Although Deron's defense was pretty bad this year- 255 in isolation ppp and 337 on spot up, tho he did a good job on P&R which is important with him guarding CP3. -2.8 defensive RAPM as well. 16.7 opponent PER which was also in the bottom half of the league. Not too many times you find almost all the defensive stats in agreement and yet they all say Deron was a below average defender last year if not bad (his DRtg sucked too fwiw). I'm sure the resident Deron homer (yes you Greet) will take umbrage with what I said here but it's not often that every defensive stat is in agreement and almost all of them, with the exception of his overall PPP (which is due to his good P&R D) says he was a poor defender last year.

One aspect the Bulls will take advantage of is Carmelo guarding Horford. Despite Melo's decent defensive synergy numbers on post ups, I could see him struggle with that. However, with Kenyon Martin and Psycho T, the Knicks have the backups to go to a more traditional lineup if they so choose. This series is a bit interesting in that both teams wings are mostly non-scorers (or wildly inconsistent like JR) and ultimately, I think that hurts the Bulls because that is a clear weakness of the Knicks defensively. But the Bulls can't really take advantage of that.

Also, not a fan at all of Horford guarding Battier out on the wing. Does he have to worry about Battier driving by him? Not really but the thing is, you don't have big men out on the perimeter because they're more likely to fall asleep or lose track of a 3 point shooter like Battier. And I could see him getting hot for a game or 2 (like the Finals). And while Battier's D has regressed, it's not like Kawhi is going to take advantage of that. I love him as a role player and a potential do it all borderline star down the road but at this moment, Kawhi isn't going to "abuse" Battier. As for JR on Thabo, could JR fall asleep on Thabo? Most definitely. Is he likely going to do that more often then a big like Horford who is never ever guarding perimeter 3 point shooters? Doubt it.

Anyways, I may be swayed to vote for the Bulls, who have done a phenomenal job. But there are quite a few things I don't agree with in regards to their arguments and ultimately, I just like the top end talent + superior bench of the Knicks more. This would be a damn close series though.

Edit: Actually one of the things I forgot to mention that I don't buy is Thabo guarding CP3 in H2H matchups. I don't think I've ever seen that. Usually Westbrook, who is a good defender, guards CP3. Never seen Thabo guard him. And while I love Thabo and think he's so underrated, he's a better suited to guard someone like a Kobe, Wade or even Carmelo then he is to guard CP3.

Sadds The Gr8
08-29-2013, 11:37 PM
On that front, I don't know why they have Thabo guarding CP3...DWill isn't god awful on D and you can get away with him guarding CP3. CP3 is super efficient but he isn't a consistently explosive scorer like a DRose or RussWest so I don't see the fear of hiding Dwill from him. Thabo should just guard JR and completely wipe him out of the series...

KnicksorBust
08-29-2013, 11:50 PM
Some of PSD's brightest on the Knick's advantages over the Bulls.

On Impact Players:

right before clicking NYK/vote I texted three trusted buddies a picture of the matchup. all of them responded knicks right away. confirmed my gut feelings. with Duncan matching up against a DPOY caliber center, I think Melo becomes the second most impactful player in this series. for me meaning that the Knicks got the two highest impact player in the series. its tough to vote against the two highest impact guys when they're on the same team.

On Chris Paul's bigplay ability in the playoffs:

Eagles, CP3 was above average in the playoffs? WHAT THE **** ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? haha. Dude had the highest PER in the playoffs, his WS/48 was .267, he had a TS% of 63.3%, an ORtg of 132. Oh and he also had a 80% TS% in the clutch while using 70% of his teams' possessions in the clutch in the playoffs. Yeah 80% TS%/70%USG in the clutch in the playoffs. If that is above average, well then every player in the league sucks.

A fair and honest assessment that concedes points for both sides:

The Knicks match up better. Leonard is great, long defender on most Small Forwards, but he's just not strong enough to guard Melo down low. The guys that succeed against him are the Dengs of the world who have the strength in the post to contain him. We saw LeBron destroy Kawhi in the post in the Finals, and in the post Melo has more moves and a greater volume of shots. And honestly who's covering that paint when Horford is out guarding three point shooters? I feel like that's a recipe for disaster. His rebounding edge is not utilized if he's 20 feet away from the hoop when the shot goes up.

Chris Paul is in another tier at PG. I don't care about their 2007 matchups and when the Thunder play the Clippers, he's guarded by Westbrook. Those stats are trash.

I also don't get how the Bulls bash Butler when they are playing Landry Fields any minutes at all. He's beyond terrible.

I think Melo guarding Horford hurts the Knicks though. That's their biggest mismatch. Tyson has proven that he can do an adequate job versus Duncan in past matchups. Tyson lost like 10 pounds after being sick this year and was clearly not 100% this postseason. But the game considers every player healthy, and a healthy Tyson in the playoffs isn't far off from the better C's in the game.

In the end, I know this series is going down to the wire. Each team has its advantages and disadvantages. The Bulls have size and rebounding. The Knicks have the spacing and Melo mismatch. And when these games go to the wire, I look at the closers on each team. And the Knicks have the two best players and closers in this series.

That's why I chose them. Wasn't easy. Call me a homer. But I think they win this series.

On questions that remain unanswered:

I'd like to see the Bulls answer how they plan on defending CP3 in the clutch though...

On how a 54 win team just got that much better because of one position:

CP3 can make anyone happy. It's why he is the best PG by a fair margin. And just cause he's the best at everything too.

On the glaring flaws in the Bulls defensive schemes:

I changed my vote after reading the write ups.

Your strategies are insane Bulls GM's. They would not work... And by putting Thabo on Paul, you are creating a huge problem for yourself because Paul will easily get into the paint, meaning defense collapses, they kill you if that happens.

Don't just listen to the Knicks GM's. Other people see the same things. With these defensive mismatches, the two biggest impact players in the series, and one of the 3 best clutch performers in the entire world (http://www.82games.com/1213/CSORT11.HTM) in Chris Paul, the Knicks would not be eliminated in the 2nd round.

Guppyfighter
08-30-2013, 12:01 AM
Knicks should win. If they don't. Oh well. But they should.

I believe the vast majority of people voting for the Knicks are doing their due diligence in this match up and the ones voting for the Bulls, well, I don't know why. I don't see a good reason to vote for the Bulls knowing everything I know

PatsSoxKnicks
08-30-2013, 12:16 AM
On that front, I don't know why they have Thabo guarding CP3...DWill isn't god awful on D and you can get away with him guarding CP3. CP3 is super efficient but he isn't a consistently explosive scorer like a DRose or RussWest so I don't see the fear of hiding Dwill from him. Thabo should just guard JR and completely wipe him out of the series...

Before I was looking up DWill's defensive stats, I thought he was an below average to average defender. Then I looked up like every defensive stat I use and D-Will was bad in basically every one of them. I've literally never seen all the defensive stats I use be in agreement on a players' defense until Deron. That overwhelming evidence + the fact that the Nets team' defense wasn't that good makes me think Deron was pretty bad on D last year. (and I just looked up Defensive ASPM too for the heck of it, he's not good there either)

PatsSoxKnicks
08-30-2013, 12:22 AM
Also, I will patiently await Greet, who will come in here and tell me all my Deron stats are trash because he's the GOAT :laugh2:

Sadds The Gr8
08-30-2013, 12:25 AM
Before I was looking up DWill's defensive stats, I thought he was an below average to average defender. Then I looked up like every defensive stat I use and D-Will was bad in basically every one of them. I've literally never seen all the defensive stats I use be in agreement on a players' defense until Deron. That overwhelming evidence + the fact that the Nets team' defense wasn't that good makes me think Deron was pretty bad on D last year. (and I just looked up Defensive ASPM too for the heck of it, he's not good there either)

Maybe his stats are worse than I thought, but I still don't think it merits hiding him from CP3. Like I said, CP3 isn't a consistently explosive scorer that will average 30 a night. He'd do well regardless of whether Dwill or Thabo guards him, so might as well cut your loss at PG, and let Thabo wipe JR off the face of the earth. Dwill will be able to get his vs CP3 too so the negative of Dwill's defense wouldn't be that devastating.

Ebbs
08-30-2013, 12:32 AM
i have the lakers and bulls in the finals. (my opinion)

as much as id want the lakers to win.. i see the bulls winning on sick defense

Ill save it for the finals but will see

Ebbs
08-30-2013, 12:34 AM
:laugh:

Bruno
08-30-2013, 12:38 AM
this has been my favorite re-draft debate of all time.

good stuff everybody.

PatsSoxKnicks
08-30-2013, 12:38 AM
Maybe his stats are worse than I thought, but I still don't think it merits hiding him from CP3. Like I said, CP3 isn't a consistently explosive scorer that will average 30 a night. He'd do well regardless of whether Dwill or Thabo guards him, so might as well cut your loss at PG, and let Thabo wipe JR off the face of the earth. Dwill will be able to get his vs CP3 too so the negative of Dwill's defense wouldn't be that devastating.

Oh yeah, I do agree with that. I mean I think that logic makes more sense than putting Thabo on CP3. And for what its worth, it appears D-Will's D on pick and rolls was good, which is something CP3 would be doing a lot of.

PatsSoxKnicks
08-30-2013, 12:42 AM
this has been my favorite re-draft debate of all time.

good stuff everybody.

Jamal and I had a pretty good all-time debate but it didn't go on for this many pages mainly cause we didn't have this many people weighing in (cause it was an all-time instead of a regular). But agreed, this has definitely been one of the best Re-draft matchups ever. I mean 20 pages? Wow. Winning.

KnicksorBust
08-30-2013, 10:05 AM
On PSD on my birthday. :)

bump. Knicks!

xxplayerxx23
08-30-2013, 10:19 AM
Knicks again in 7

colinskik
08-30-2013, 11:11 AM
I think this match up comes down to who can put up the most points given the defensive liabilities from both teams. Namely, Melo guarding Horford and the entire defensive scheme the Bulls GM has put in place (terrible match up at every position definitely favors NY).

So with that said, I have to give it to NY which has three closers capable of making a game winning shot (yes, I'm including JR).

Add to that, I've read all the posts on this thread and many from the previous match up thread, and I really don't like the tone the Bulls GM uses to defend his team. That certainly pushes my vote over to NY.

D-Leethal
08-30-2013, 01:26 PM
By Thabo "wiping JR off the face of the Earth", do you mean JR dropping 37 on him (50% shooting)? Or 22-7-4 with the game winning 3?

Knicks via explosion on offense. Best combat to a great defense is an elite PG, especially when DWill will be guarding him. CP3 is going to find guys open and its not going to be a slow down iso Melo fest that feeds into the hands of a great defense. But when times get tough, they still have one of the best half court isolation scorers in the game when they need to rely on him. Tyson will do as good a job as any on the pick and roll and will do as good a job as any at stifling Duncan. Bulls don't have enough weapons to make the perceived lack of D on the Knicks pay, especially when they will rely so heavily on the pick and roll and Knicks have a top 2-3 pick and roll defender at the C spot.

Killerjug
08-30-2013, 01:35 PM
Bump!

Eagles4Lyfe
08-30-2013, 01:35 PM
By Thabo "wiping JR off the face of the Earth", do you mean JR dropping 37 on him (50% shooting)? Or 22-7-4 with the game winning 3?

Knicks via explosion on offense. Best combat to a great defense is an elite PG, especially when DWill will be guarding him. CP3 is going to find guys open and its not going to be a slow down iso Melo fest that feeds into the hands of a great defense. But when times get tough, they still have one of the best half court isolation scorers in the game when they need to rely on him. Tyson will do as good a job as any on the pick and roll and will do as good a job as any at stifling Duncan. Bulls don't have enough weapons to make the perceived lack of D on the Knicks pay, especially when they will rely so heavily on the pick and roll and Knicks have a top 2-3 pick and roll defender at the C spot.

You mean like Marc Gasol did stifling Duncan?
I don't understand where this hypothetical PnR all the time is coming from.
We never mentioned any of this in our write ups

Eagles4Lyfe
08-30-2013, 01:38 PM
Oh I get why KNicks fans keep pushing for Duncan to be involved in the PnR because they don't want Melo and his shotty defense being involved in a PnR with Al Horford who is a really good shooter of the PnR.


But ya lets ignore those things we stated in our write ups and make **** up that'll hypothetically favour the Knicks.

Eagles4Lyfe
08-30-2013, 01:41 PM
I think this match up comes down to who can put up the most points given the defensive liabilities from both teams. Namely, Melo guarding Horford and the entire defensive scheme the Bulls GM has put in place (terrible match up at every position definitely favors NY).

So with that said, I have to give it to NY which has three closers capable of making a game winning shot (yes, I'm including JR).

Add to that, I've read all the posts on this thread and many from the previous match up thread, and I really don't like the tone the Bulls GM uses to defend his team. That certainly pushes my vote over to NY.

My tone? I apologize you found anything offensive but you do know we weren't the ones who first started insulting Gm's and the voters right.
How can you say you read every page then say my tone insulted you.

D-Leethal
08-30-2013, 01:45 PM
You mean like Marc Gasol did stifling Duncan?
I don't understand where this hypothetical PnR all the time is coming from.
We never mentioned any of this in our write ups

No, I mean like Tyson Chandler, the guy Popovich described as: "a monster who creates so many problems out on the floor and at the rim" after shutting down Duncan does to pretty much anyone who runs the PnR.


Oh I get why KNicks fans keep pushing for Duncan to be involved in the PnR because they don't want Melo and his shotty defense being involved in a PnR with Al Horford who is a really good shooter of the PnR.


But ya lets ignore those things we stated in our write ups and make **** up that'll hypothetically favour the Knicks.

Ok, you will ignore one of the best pick and roll players of all time in favor of popping with Al Horford?

Good luck combating CP3-JR-Melo's offensive potency with Al Horford jump shots.

Eagles4Lyfe
08-30-2013, 01:48 PM
No, I mean like Tyson Chandler does stifling anyone who runs the pick and roll.



Ok, you will ignore one of the best pick and roll players of all time in favor of popping with Al Horford?

Good luck combating CP3-JR-Melo's offensive potency with Al Horford jump shots.

We did combat it in our write up, not my fault you didn't read it all.

We never said were going to ignore it but you guys are making it seem like Duncan is the only one who will b involved in pick and rolls and completely ignore Horford.
Lets not forget Bass to when he comes in the game.

If arguably one of the top defensive centers couldn't stifle Duncan, what makes you think Chandler would?
Especially when he's coming of a horrible playoff showing

PatsSoxKnicks
08-30-2013, 01:57 PM
I think Duncan would have more success in the post vs. Tyson then he would on P&Rs.

D-Leethal
08-30-2013, 02:06 PM
If JR was able to have arguably his best game of the year and drop 37 on Thabo WITHOUT Melo (hurt) taking all the defensive attention, how the hell is Thabo going to shut him down with both Melo and CP3 on the floor? JR would have a field day playing off those 2.

Eagles4Lyfe
08-30-2013, 02:25 PM
n you just proved my point

Eagles4Lyfe
08-30-2013, 02:39 PM
bump bump bump

Moarr votes leggo

colinskik
08-30-2013, 02:46 PM
My tone? I apologize you found anything offensive but you do know we weren't the ones who first started insulting Gm's and the voters right.
How can you say you read every page then say my tone insulted you.

Well this is exactly what I'm talking about.

I never said your tone insulted me. I said I didn't like it because it doesn't help your argument when you get all snippity about defending a made up team. I also never said I read every page of the first match up thread. I have, however, read every page of this thread.

Some people can have respectful debates and others have trouble doing so. Nothing more, nothing less.

Eagles4Lyfe
08-30-2013, 02:48 PM
Well this is exactly what I'm talking about.

I never said your tone insulted me. I said I didn't like it because it doesn't help your argument when you get all snippity about defending a made up team.

Some people can have respectful debates and others have trouble doing so. Nothing more, nothing less.

Well when you work weeks putting together a team like this, and spend a lotta time into write ups, obviously your bound to get heated.

I don't mind if people have opinions but don't say fake reasons that we never said in the first place to justify a vote thats all.

Our debates have been respectful for the most part except when MBT enters the frame

Sadds The Gr8
08-30-2013, 02:51 PM
Isn't D-Leethal the guy that said PSD games are stupid and a mockery to real basketball? Now he's in here defending the Knicks? lol...

colinskik
08-30-2013, 03:04 PM
Well when you work weeks putting together a team like this, and spend a lotta time into write ups, obviously your bound to get heated.

I don't mind if people have opinions but don't say fake reasons that we never said in the first place to justify a vote thats all.

Our debates have been respectful for the most part except when MBT enters the frame

Fair enough. I know you probably spent a lot of time on your team, which is nice btw.

But like I said in my decision, I think it comes down to who scores the last bucket and I have to give the advantage to the Melo/CP3 duo.

Very close match up though, which is evident from the run off vote we see here.

Good luck.

PatsSoxKnicks
08-30-2013, 04:01 PM
Isn't D-Leethal the guy that said PSD games are stupid and a mockery to real basketball? Now he's in here defending the Knicks? lol...

Yeah I was wondering about that...lol

D-Leethal
08-30-2013, 04:27 PM
Isn't D-Leethal the guy that said PSD games are stupid and a mockery to real basketball? Now he's in here defending the Knicks? lol...

Yes sir. My boy KoB is involved I gotta get his back. Not to mention his team is sexy as hell.

Ebbs
08-30-2013, 04:36 PM
Lol

mightybosstone
08-30-2013, 06:59 PM
Our debates have been respectful for the most part except when MBT enters the frame
Two things. First, I think I've been very repescttful in these debates. The only negative things I've said have never been directed at you, but rather some of the arguments you've maid, which I thought have been poorly conceived ones.

Secondly, I only got heated after you made the disrespectful statement that your team was essentially better in every way. Not only is it insulting to a team who clearly is evenly matched with you, but it's just plain ignorant. We have the two best player in the series and clearly have a superior offensive attack, in addition to a few major defensive mismatches, more depth, superior clutch scorers and superior shooters.

mightybosstone
08-30-2013, 07:18 PM
We did combat it in our write up, not my fault you didn't read it all.

We never said were going to ignore it but you guys are making it seem like Duncan is the only one who will b involved in pick and rolls and completely ignore Horford.
Lets not forget Bass to when he comes in the game.

If arguably one of the top defensive centers couldn't stifle Duncan, what makes you think Chandler would?
Especially when he's coming of a horrible playoff showing

You keep ripping on Chandler for his playoff performances, but you fail to realize that Chandler is a defensive guy first and foremost. Who cares about his offensive output if he's having a major impact on the defensive end? And that's exactly what happened in the playoffs, despite him clearly not playing at 100 percent health.

Garnett 17.9 points per 36 minutes in the regular season but managed only a meager 12.9 points per 36 minutes going against Chandler in the postseason. His 17.3 PER in the series was tied for the lowest postseason PER of his career and his 22.0 TO% was the highest of any postseason in his career.

As far as Indiana goes, Roy Hibbert completely went off in the postseason, blowing his regular season numbers out of the water. But by far his worst series of the playoffs was against the Knicks and Chandler. While averaging a monster 17/10 on 51% shooting in the postseason, he posted only 13/10 on 47% shooting against New York, getting held to fewer than 10 points in three of the series' six games.

If Chandler playing hurt can have a significant impact on those guys, than Chandler playing healthy would certainly have an effect on Duncan's offensive game.

mightybosstone
08-30-2013, 07:56 PM
C'mon Knicks fans. Where are you guys at? We essentially constructed your dream roster and you still aren't voting for us? Get those New York votes in, folks! There's only a few hours left! Do you really want Chicago or Indiana in the Finals over your Knicks?

Guppyfighter
08-30-2013, 08:01 PM
Can't believe the Bulls are going to win

Eagles4Lyfe
08-30-2013, 08:07 PM
C'mon Knicks fans. Where are you guys at? We essentially constructed your dream roster and you still aren't voting for us? Get those New York votes in, folks! There's only a few hours left! Do you really want Chicago or Indiana in the Finals over your Knicks?

This is pretty effing pathetic.
So your calling Knick fans homers?

Ebbs
08-30-2013, 08:10 PM
Can't believe the Bulls are going to win

See now I'm thinking about it again and If I hadn't voted I'd probably lean Knicks.

This matchup has been very back n forth. This is also 100% why votes cannot be changed, Because in a back n forth your opinion can change.

mightybosstone
08-30-2013, 08:12 PM
This is pretty effing pathetic.
So your calling Knick fans homers?

lol..... Calm down, Nancy. I was clearly joking. The majority of the people voting at this point likely aren't reading these posts anyway, and if there were Knicks homers reading this, my post would have zero effect on their vote as they would have voted for us regardless of what either team said. If I REALLY wanted Knicks homers, I'd wait until about 30 minutes before the end of voting and post this link in the Knicks thread.

Now the real question you're asking yourself is if I'll actually do it or not. ;)

mightybosstone
08-30-2013, 08:14 PM
See now I'm thinking about it again and If I hadn't voted I'd probably lean Knicks.

This matchup has been very back n forth. This is also 100% why votes cannot be changed, Because in a back n forth your opinion can change.

I'm willing to accept your changed vote if you're willing to change it, my sexy Canadian friend. :D

Ebbs
08-30-2013, 08:33 PM
Nah I don't believe in changing votes lol. that's why I took a full 2 days to decide it was an awesome matchup lol

Shammyguy3
08-30-2013, 09:09 PM
See now I'm thinking about it again and If I hadn't voted I'd probably lean Knicks.

This matchup has been very back n forth. This is also 100% why votes cannot be changed, Because in a back n forth your opinion can change.

Completely agree with this

TrueFan420
08-30-2013, 10:18 PM
This one day devote has more views and replies than the other ones and their on full time

Eagles4Lyfe
08-30-2013, 10:26 PM
yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa budddy.
Thank you all for taking part in the polls and for your explanation.
Kudos for being good competitors Knicks GM's.

KnicksorBust
08-31-2013, 01:02 AM
I'll tell you what... I still think we're better than the Bulls. :laugh: I just have so much respect for Chris Paul's game. I don't buy that he and Melo would go down in the 2nd round. Be that as it may, if I was to lose I'd be hard pressed to find a team more deserved than this Bulls team. I fully admit that I buy into Deron Williams's renaissance. He's a top 5 PG and he's playing with arguably the best frontcourt in the game. Horford-Duncan frontcourt offers so much value on both ends of the value. I don't know if I'd recommend putting Horford on anymore spot-up corner shooters 22 feet from the basket... :) but they definitely provide 2-way value. Leonard is legit. I think his performance in the Finals was what gave you this victory. After 3 days to have a 26-26 vote provides that if just 1 more person doubted Kawhi it would have been my victory. At this point I fully endorse the Bulls as the best remaining team. I've always considered this mock as Knicks-Bulls-Lakers-everybody else and now I think it's just a matter of time until we see Bulls-Lakers finals.

Despite the loss this was one of the most fun matchups I've ever participated in. You guys were relentless with your debate and I had a great time fighting against your squad. Congratulations to Eagles/KJ/Lucky.

Killerjug
08-31-2013, 08:55 AM
Same to you guys KOB and MBT. I respect both of your guys basketball knowledge and couldn't have asked for a better series. MBT if this is the last game you participate in, it was a pleasure playing these games with you but hopefully we see you back in these games because they simply won't be the same. Just wanna say congrats to the Knicks this was the most competitive series I've seen on here and hope to see many more