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Kushed
08-28-2013, 01:46 PM
That Jordan was 1-12 in playoff games without Pippen?

Just food for thought.

TheMightyHumph
08-28-2013, 02:24 PM
So noted

DamnGoat
08-28-2013, 02:26 PM
Take a look at those Bulls rosters...they were pretty ugly.

effen5
08-28-2013, 02:29 PM
That Jordan was 1-12 in playoff games without Pippen?

Just food for thought.

Do people realize Jordan had less help than lebron did when he went 1-12 dropping 60+ points against one of the best teams in nba history?

Hellcrooner
08-28-2013, 02:30 PM
How do you dare to bring up that?

heresy!!!

Insanity!!!!!

Revisionist!!!!!!



:D

Goose17
08-28-2013, 02:38 PM
And Pippen without Jordan?

PhillyFaninLA
08-28-2013, 02:44 PM
And Pippen was barely average without Jordan

hidalgo
08-28-2013, 02:46 PM
he was 2-9, not 1-12. (1990 Pippen missed a game vs the 76ers & the Bulls won, Jordan had 45 points & 11 assists)he also avg about 40 ppg in the playoffs vs the Celtics in 86 & 87 combined. nothing else he could do, they were 5 hall of famers vs him. and everyone talks about him not winning a title without pippen, but he had pippen on his team every year since 87-88, how else could he win? only with pippen, duhhh. that's not a bad thing by any means. they were in no shape roster wise to win anything before Grant & Pippen got there(& then those 2 needed a few years to hit their prime, 1991)

they had no shot at beating Boston, & really almost no shot of upsetting the 59 win Bucks team in 1985 either. I don't see how anyone could have expected the Bulls to upset either of those teams(especially the Celtics). he won when he got a decent roster

Jordan did win a major basketball title without Pippen, the NCAA championship (game winning shot & all). Pippen can't say the same. there's his championship without Pippen

valade16
08-28-2013, 02:56 PM
LOL, The Bulls went to the 2nd round of the playoffs in 87-88 with Jordan as the MVP and Pippen averaging 8 PPG his rookie year.

Next year the Bulls went to the ECF with Pippen averaging 14 PPG (with a 14.9 PER and a .080 WS/48).

Yeah, all Pippen baby :rolleyes:

bearadonisdna
08-28-2013, 03:03 PM
That Jordan was 1-12 in playoff games without Pippen?

Just food for thought.

Did u see his numbers?

ManRam
08-28-2013, 03:55 PM
Perfect in the Finals, it doesn't matter. At least, that's what JB tells me.

Clippersfan86
08-28-2013, 03:57 PM
Do YOU realize that he ran up against the dominant Pistons and Celtics multiple times in that span and that he put up INSANE numbers? In that span Larry Bird called him "God"? If he was playing bad teams maybe he could have carried the team more given his dominance but instead he was a low seed going against dynasties and elite teams.


"It was in Game 2 of Chicago's first round matchup against the eventual NBA champion Boston Celtics that Jordan showed just how thoroughly he had recovered. In the hallowed halls of the Boston Garden, he set a playoff record by scoring an amazing 63 points against what many considered to be one of the greatest NBA teams ever. The Celtics won the game, 135-131 in double-overtime, and went on to sweep the Bulls, but Jordan's playoff record still stands.

"Michael was doing so much and so well, I found myself just wanting to stop and watch him -- and I was playing," said teammate John Paxson.

"I didn't think anyone was capable of doing what Michael has done to us," marveled Celtics ace Larry Bird. "He is the most exciting, awesome player in the game today. I think it's just God disguised as Michael Jordan."

MonroeFAN
08-28-2013, 03:59 PM
put the pipe down kushed

TrueFan420
08-28-2013, 04:04 PM
Do YOU realize that he ran up against the dominant Pistons and Celtics multiple times in that span and that he put up INSANE numbers? In that span Larry Bird called him "God"? If he was playing bad teams maybe he could have carried the team more given his dominance but instead he was a low seed going against dynasties and elite teams.


"It was in Game 2 of Chicago's first round matchup against the eventual NBA champion Boston Celtics that Jordan showed just how thoroughly he had recovered. In the hallowed halls of the Boston Garden, he set a playoff record by scoring an amazing 63 points against what many considered to be one of the greatest NBA teams ever. The Celtics won the game, 135-131 in double-overtime, and went on to sweep the Bulls, but Jordan's playoff record still stands.

"Michael was doing so much and so well, I found myself just wanting to stop and watch him -- and I was playing," said teammate John Paxson.

"I didn't think anyone was capable of doing what Michael has done to us," marveled Celtics ace Larry Bird. "He is the most exciting, awesome player in the game today. I think it's just God disguised as Michael Jordan."

Damn that's an unbelievable comment from bird

Heatcheck
08-28-2013, 04:33 PM
wait...so LeBron isn't the only great to not win a championship by himself?
you mean going to the finals and ECF with that cavs team, that almost broke the record for suckiness in all of team sports the year he left, wasn't so easy?
Go figure....

tredigs
08-28-2013, 04:58 PM
Do people realize: the Eastern Conference in 1987 would lay waste to the current NBA?

MJ put up 63 on one of the best teams ever in the playoffs, efficiently. Still lost.

Hellcrooner
08-28-2013, 04:58 PM
And Pippen without Jordan?

almost made the conference finals? being actually STOLEN of it by a ref vs the knics? and got almost the same record they had the year before with jordan in reg season?

Chronz
08-28-2013, 05:09 PM
Do people realize: the Eastern Conference in 1987 would lay waste to the current NBA?

MJ put up 63 on one of the best teams ever in the playoffs, efficiently. Still lost.

Averaged 56PPG for the first 2 games of the series, scores 19 and fouls out in elimination = Perennial Loser before Pippen showed up.

tredigs
08-28-2013, 05:21 PM
Averaged 56PPG for the first 2 games of the series, scores 19 and fouls out in elimination = Perennial Loser before Pippen showed up.

Scrub.

Kushed
08-28-2013, 05:45 PM
put the pipe down kushed

lol I know right

Kushed
08-28-2013, 05:48 PM
Wasn't hating on MJ. Just thought it was an interesting stat.

He's the greatest of all time but that doesn't mean he can't be overrated a little bit.

effen5
08-28-2013, 05:51 PM
Wasn't hating on MJ. Just thought it was an interesting stat.

He's the greatest of all time but that doesn't mean he can't be overrated a little bit.

Did you not read this thread when you wrote this? He scored 63 against one of the best teams in NBA history. He's not overrated.

Mr.SmackYoMama
08-28-2013, 05:51 PM
Im getting a Tattoo of that stat on my sack so when chicks give me brain I can return the favor with a little knowledge of my own :0)

Bishnoff
08-28-2013, 06:23 PM
Im getting a Tattoo of that stat on my sack so when chicks give me brain I can return the favor with a little knowledge of my own :0)

lol!

BULLSFAN0810
08-28-2013, 06:28 PM
I know im gonna get smashed for saying this... They just replayed the Bulls 2nd 3peat and Pippen looked clearly better than Jordan as far as Skill.. Jordan seemed to do it more in spots and spurts,but he was still dominate.

Bostonjorge
08-28-2013, 06:38 PM
he was 2-9, not 1-12. (1990 Pippen missed a game vs the 76ers & the Bulls won, Jordan had 45 points & 11 assists)he also avg about 40 ppg in the playoffs vs the Celtics in 86 & 87 combined. nothing else he could do, they were 5 hall of famers vs him. and everyone talks about him not winning a title without pippen, but he had pippen on his team every year since 87-88, how else could he win? only with pippen, duhhh. that's not a bad thing by any means. they were in no shape roster wise to win anything before Grant & Pippen got there(& then those 2 needed a few years to hit their prime, 1991)

they had no shot at beating Boston, & really almost no shot of upsetting the 59 win Bucks team in 1985 either. I don't see how anyone could have expected the Bulls to upset either of those teams(especially the Celtics). he won when he got a decent roster

Jordan did win a major basketball title without Pippen, the NCAA championship (game winning shot & all). Pippen can't say the same. there's his championship without Pippen

Jordan won that college tile as worthy's robin. Worthy won most outstanding player for the tournament. Jordan stayed 2 more year's and no NCAA title.

In 1993 after the bulls won title and jordan retired pippen lead the bulls in 1994. Pippen's team had 2 less losses in the season with out Jordan. That bulls team lost to the Knicks in 7 games. Jordan can't say the same.

tredigs
08-28-2013, 06:49 PM
Jordan won that college tile as worthy's robin. Worthy won most outstanding player for the tournament. Jordan stayed 2 more year's and no NCAA title.

In 1993 after the bulls won title and jordan retired pippen lead the bulls in 1994. Pippen's team had 2 less losses in the season with out Jordan. That bulls team lost to the Knicks in 7 games. Jordan can't say the same.

I'm reading this from the same guy that thinks Kobe is the greatest scorer of all time and the preeminent defender of our generation, correct?


That Bulls team was stacked, but there's a reason why the double 3-peat wasn't accompanied (at the least) by 2 more Fiinals appearances, and the name is MJ mon frere.

hidalgo
08-28-2013, 06:49 PM
Jordan won that college tile as worthy's robin. Worthy won most outstanding player for the tournament. Jordan stayed 2 more year's and no NCAA title.

In 1993 after the bulls won title and jordan retired pippen lead the bulls in 1994. Pippen's team had 2 less losses in the season with out Jordan. That bulls team lost to the Knicks in 7 games. Jordan can't say the same.huh? well thankfully Jordan can't say the same, cause he never lost to the Knicks. (& he never had the chance to lead the Bulls without Scottie with the decent roster they had, except 1998 they were 26-12 without Pippen, Jordan was clearly holding the fort down while he was out) plus game 6 of he 1998 finals when Pippens back was blown out, & he only played 26 minutes, & only scored 8 points, MJ had 45 points, 16 in the 4th quarter

and Worthy was their go to guy on the 1982 title team, but it was Jordan who made the big plays in the clutch, including the game winning shot (no surprise, that's Michael Jordan for ya). funny how they won the championship the year MJ gets there. he did get them to the elite 8 the following year. that ncaa tourney is a nightmare to win, harder than the nba playoffs really, cause 1 loss & you're out. but that's his championship without Scottie (Pippen has no titles without Jordan). Scottie was an excellent number 2 option, but I doubt he'd have even gotten to the finals even once & lost as a #1 option, let alone win the title (& i'm a big Scottie Pippen fan)

Bostonjorge
08-28-2013, 11:11 PM
huh? well thankfully Jordan can't say the same, cause he never lost to the Knicks. (& he never had the chance to lead the Bulls without Scottie with the decent roster they had, except 1998 they were 26-12 without Pippen, Jordan was clearly holding the fort down while he was out) plus game 6 of he 1998 finals when Pippens back was blown out, & he only played 26 minutes, & only scored 8 points, MJ had 45 points, 16 in the 4th quarter

and Worthy was their go to guy on the 1982 title team, but it was Jordan who made the big plays in the clutch, including the game winning shot (no surprise, that's Michael Jordan for ya). funny how they won the championship the year MJ gets there. he did get them to the elite 8 the following year. that ncaa tourney is a nightmare to win, harder than the nba playoffs really, cause 1 loss & you're out. but that's his championship without Scottie (Pippen has no titles without Jordan). Scottie was an excellent number 2 option, but I doubt he'd have even gotten to the finals even once & lost as a #1 option, let alone win the title (& i'm a big Scottie Pippen fan)

Jordan is better then pippen no doubt but jordan needed prime pippen to win. If pippen played on another contender pippen would of gave Jordan nightmares of the defensive end. Hard to say if pippen can lead a team especially past jordan to a finals but someone good enough can lead pippen past jordan to a title.

Jordan is still the greatest winner of all time.

Hellcrooner
08-28-2013, 11:27 PM
oh yeah he scored 63.

and his team LOST THE GAME:


I loove how people forget bout that.

Maybe if he scored 50 and shared the rock some the game would ahve been won.

hidalgo
08-28-2013, 11:31 PM
Jordan is better then pippen no doubt but jordan needed prime pippen to win. If pippen played on another contender pippen would of gave Jordan nightmares of the defensive end. Hard to say if pippen can lead a team especially past jordan to a finals but someone good enough can lead pippen past jordan to a title.

Jordan is still the greatest winner of all time.from what Phil & many past players on the Bulls have said, Jordan lit Pippen up in practice/scrimmages. I do think it was good for him to have a guy as great as Pippen defending him in each practice, just made him better, & i'm sure Jordan's defense & intensity made Pippen a lot better

" Washington Post columnist Michael Wilbon wrote about a Bulls practice in 1990 when Scottie Pippen made the mistake of challenging Jordan.

"Michael kind of backed up for a half-second," Bulls guard Craig Hodges said. "Then he proceeded, literally, to score on Scottie at will. It was incredible. I mean, Scottie Pippen even then was one of the best players in the league and Michael just rained points on him." - from sporting news

stuff like that is so interesting, & i'd love to see footage of Jordan vs Pippen in practice(I have no doubt Michael scored just fine against him, I mean he played against him none stop, but it would still be cool to see), also the 1992 dream team scrimmages, proably had a good amount of MJ vs Pip, & of course team Michael vs team Magic, with Magic still heated about the 91 finals, & Jordan just being Jordan, both crazy competitive(but MJ tops anyone in competitive drive, even magic). they had some serious classics in scrimmages, one Jordan said was the best game he ever played in. wish I could see all this stuff, & wish more old Bulls games were on dvd

arlubas
08-29-2013, 03:27 AM
Do people realize that no one has won a title without another all-star type player beside him in the last 35 years? The closest one to win it all without another big name was Hakeem in 1994 but even he had a former all star (Otis Thorpe) and a very balanced team. Oh and the fact that he had to pull out one of the best playoff personal runs in history certainly helped.

Even the Pistons in 2004, who were the definition of a balanced team, had multiple All-Stars on their roster (even if the only one that was actually an All-Star before that title was Rasheed).

Point being, no one can win without a good roster around him. It's no accident that even some of the best players ever have left their teams to seek more complete rosters to complement their skills (think Barkley, Drexler, Lebron etc).

jerellh528
08-29-2013, 03:30 AM
He's just a human being.

SLY WILLIAMS
08-29-2013, 11:21 AM
oh yeah he scored 63.

and his team LOST THE GAME:


I loove how people forget bout that.

Maybe if he scored 50 and shared the rock some the game would ahve been won.

I hated Jordan back then and I still dislike the guy now but this need some people have to take away from how great he was is strange to me.

MJ actually led the Bulls with 6 assists in that game as well. The next closest Bull had 3 assists.

If he was a selfish player responsible for the team losing that game I doubt a unselfish player like Larry Bird would have said that was
God Disguised as Michael Jordan

Acting like Pippen made Jordan is silly. Pippen was good. Jordan was the best of all time.

Bruno
08-29-2013, 11:50 AM
oh yeah he scored 63.

and his team LOST THE GAME:


I loove how people forget bout that.

Maybe if he scored 50 and shared the rock some the game would ahve been won.

he had six assists in that game, which is plenty for a shooting guard. chicago lost by four.

he posted nineteen points and nine assists the next game and the bulls got slaughtered by a huge margin of 18 points :confused: go figure

valade16
08-29-2013, 12:02 PM
oh yeah he scored 63.

and his team LOST THE GAME:

I loove how people forget bout that.

Maybe if he scored 50 and shared the rock some the game would ahve been won.

Shared the rock some?

A) Jordan had the most assists on the Bulls that game with 6 (next closest was 3)

B) Share with who? Here were the rosters of people who played over 5 minutes in the game:

Michael Jordan
Orlando Woolridge
Dave Corzine
Charles Oakley
Kyle Macy
John Paxson
Gene Banks
Sydney Green

They didn't even have their 3rd leading scorer for the game (an old George Gervin, who only played 5 minutes).

Here was the Celtics roster:

Larry Bird
Kevin McHale
Danny Ainge
Denis Johnson
Robert Parish
Bill Walton
Jerry Sichting
Scott Wedman

You could put another all-star on that bulls team and they still wouldn't be favored to beat those Celtics in a series...

C) Maybe the problem was he passed too much. Their 2nd leading scorer (Orlando Woolridge) was an abysmal 9/27 that game. Ready for the mindblowing part?

Jordan: 22/41 (53%)
Rest of Bulls: 25/61 (41%)
Rest of Bulls without Woolridge: 16/34 (47%)

Jordan shot better than the rest of the Bulls. He shot better than the rest of the Bulls even if you don't include Woolridge's horrific performance.

But you're right, the reason the Bulls lost that game was because Jordan scored and did so efficiently...

TrueFan420
08-29-2013, 12:51 PM
I hated Jordan back then and I still dislike the guy now but this need some people have to take away from how great he was is strange to me.

MJ actually led the Bulls with 6 assists in that game as well. The next closest Bull had 3 assists.

If he was a selfish player responsible for the team losing that game I doubt a unselfish player like Larry Bird would have said that was

Acting like Pippen made Jordan is silly. Pippen was good. Jordan was the best of all time.

I agree with you on everything but the pippen being good part. Pippen was great and severely underrated because he was MJ's sidekick.

Chronz
08-29-2013, 01:17 PM
oh yeah he scored 63.

and his team LOST THE GAME:


I loove how people forget bout that.

Maybe if he scored 50 and shared the rock some the game would ahve been won.

He scored 49 in the game before and they got crushed. He scored 19 in the other and they got crushed again. The only game they had a chance at winning this series was the game in which MJ went nova.


So maybe he read the game and knew what his team needed from him.

effen5
08-29-2013, 01:32 PM
Shared the rock some?

A) Jordan had the most assists on the Bulls that game with 6 (next closest was 3)

B) Share with who? Here were the rosters of people who played over 5 minutes in the game:

Michael Jordan
Orlando Woolridge
Dave Corzine
Charles Oakley
Kyle Macy
John Paxson
Gene Banks
Sydney Green

They didn't even have their 3rd leading scorer for the game (an old George Gervin, who only played 5 minutes).

Here was the Celtics roster:

Larry Bird
Kevin McHale
Danny Ainge
Denis Johnson
Robert Parish
Bill Walton
Jerry Sichting
Scott Wedman

You could put another all-star on that bulls team and they still wouldn't be favored to beat those Celtics in a series...

C) Maybe the problem was he passed too much. Their 2nd leading scorer (Orlando Woolridge) was an abysmal 9/27 that game. Ready for the mindblowing part?

Jordan: 22/41 (53%)
Rest of Bulls: 25/61 (41%)
Rest of Bulls without Woolridge: 16/34 (47%)

Jordan shot better than the rest of the Bulls. He shot better than the rest of the Bulls even if you don't include Woolridge's horrific performance.

But you're right, the reason the Bulls lost that game was because Jordan scored and did so efficiently...

Ya, Crooner maybe you should read this post before you post again. That starting 5 would **** on the entire Bulls team not named Michael Jordan. Hell that starting 5 for the Celtics would wreck havoc in the playoffs right now.

Hellcrooner
08-29-2013, 01:45 PM
blah blah blah.

Excuses, excuses, excuses.

The sam excuses kobe fans do now when he goes on his shooting sprees.

he had six assists? nice.
Make them 10 and thats 8 to 12 more points for your team.


Sorry, i will take Hakeems/ Robertson / Robinson / Thurmond quadruple doubles in games any day of the week over Wilts 100 Kobes 81 and jordans 63.

If im a coach i would NEVER let that happen in my team, the ballhog goes to the bench until he realices this is a team game.

Tony_Starks
08-29-2013, 01:47 PM
How do you dare to bring up that?

heresy!!!

Insanity!!!!!

Revisionist!!!!!!



:D


The man should be burned at the stake for daring to question the supremacy of the almighty GOAT!

Eagles4Lyfe
08-29-2013, 01:50 PM
lmao

Chronz
08-29-2013, 02:04 PM
blah blah blah.

Excuses, excuses, excuses.

The sam excuses kobe fans do now when he goes on his shooting sprees.

he had six assists? nice.
Make them 10 and thats 8 to 12 more points for your team.
Make them 10? You do realize that assists aren't the doing of just 1 person.... right.... you know your TEAMMATES have to MAKE the shot in order to get the assist in the first place.... and again, we already SHOWED you how the Bulls fared in the other games where MJ couldn't score as effectively.



Sorry, i will take Hakeems/ Robertson / Robinson / Thurmond quadruple doubles in games any day of the week over Wilts 100 Kobes 81 and jordans 63.
Cool, Ill take the best statistical performance if its in the best interest of the team. Which all of them were.


If im a coach i would NEVER let that happen in my team, the ballhog goes to the bench until he realices this is a team game.

You would probably not last long as a head coach, in fact if you told Wilt to sit down when his owner WANTED him scoring as much as he can to draw in attention and headlines, you could have been fired on the spot for it. Sitting MJ down would have gotten you fired considering Krause couldn't even get MJ to stay off the court in the first place.
Sitting Kobe may not have gotten you fired, but you would have lost that game against Toronto by more than double digits, for sure........ why avoid a historical night at the expense of your team? Because you have a singular view of how teams should operate? LMFAO you would be a HORRIBLE NBA Head Coach from what you've said here. Unable to comprehend the context of the situation

effen5
08-29-2013, 02:30 PM
blah blah blah.

Excuses, excuses, excuses.

The sam excuses kobe fans do now when he goes on his shooting sprees.

he had six assists? nice.
Make them 10 and thats 8 to 12 more points for your team.


Sorry, i will take Hakeems/ Robertson / Robinson / Thurmond quadruple doubles in games any day of the week over Wilts 100 Kobes 81 and jordans 63.

If im a coach i would NEVER let that happen in my team, the ballhog goes to the bench until he realices this is a team game.


You're an idiot. There really isn't any more to say other than that.

valade16
08-29-2013, 02:31 PM
blah blah blah.

Excuses, excuses, excuses.

The sam excuses kobe fans do now when he goes on his shooting sprees.

he had six assists? nice.
Make them 10 and thats 8 to 12 more points for your team.

Sorry, i will take Hakeems/ Robertson / Robinson / Thurmond quadruple doubles in games any day of the week over Wilts 100 Kobes 81 and jordans 63.

If im a coach i would NEVER let that happen in my team, the ballhog goes to the bench until he realices this is a team game.

So you would sit the guy hitting buckets at a 53% (to go along with 19/21 at the FT line) to go with the rest of the team hitting buckets at a 47% clip...

I mean, who on the team would you rather have shooting shots that game? The only other player on that Bulls team who could score consistently was Orlando Woolridge and he went 9/27.

Saying "It's a team game" is good and all, but it generally helps when you have a team.

I mean, to use your exact reasoning, Pau Gasol sucks at basketball because he couldn't win a playoff game with Memphis. Heck, if he would've passed more they would've won right?

OceanSpray
08-29-2013, 03:24 PM
lol, always have some old 50 year old guy who thinks his time beats the modern era by a mile. if you're the GOAT, you should be winning more than 1 game in the playoffs. not hating on Jordan, clearly the best ever.. but stop overrating him. He never started winning big time until Pippen showed up. Also, how did bulls make it into the playoffs with a record of 30-52? incredibly weak.

Bruno
08-29-2013, 03:27 PM
blah blah blah.

Excuses, excuses, excuses.

The sam excuses kobe fans do now when he goes on his shooting sprees.

he had six assists? nice.
Make them 10 and thats 8 to 12 more points for your team.


Sorry, i will take Hakeems/ Robertson / Robinson / Thurmond quadruple doubles in games any day of the week over Wilts 100 Kobes 81 and jordans 63.

If im a coach i would NEVER let that happen in my team, the ballhog goes to the bench until he realices this is a team game.

lets just impress the world with fancy passing an mediocre defense, right? unfortunately, MJ wasn't fortunate enough to play next to Kareem.

i think thats always been one of the flaws in your philosophy. Magic is your guy because of his team oriented game but you ignore the other 50% of the game. Wilt and Jordan are legendary defenders and you seem to give magic a pass for never once getting a defensive team nod in his career.

you are the only person on the planet who would have benched Michael Jordan during the '86 playoffs. the greatest players adapt their game based off the challenge directly in front of them. such as magic johnson in game six of the 1980 nba finals with no KAJ- he posted 42 points and ONLY :laugh2: seven assists. he shot more and distributed less because that is what his team required, just as Jordans '86 Bulls required his scoring. Should Magic have been benched because he only had seven assists and scored 42 points? You gotta listen to yourself here and understand that what you're saying is completely outlandish. you're so committed to a certain philosophy that you're blind to brilliance when it slaps you across the face (100/81/63).

SLY WILLIAMS
08-29-2013, 04:19 PM
blah blah blah.

Excuses, excuses, excuses.

The sam excuses kobe fans do now when he goes on his shooting sprees.

he had six assists? nice.
Make them 10 and thats 8 to 12 more points for your team.


Sorry, i will take Hakeems/ Robertson / Robinson / Thurmond quadruple doubles in games any day of the week over Wilts 100 Kobes 81 and jordans 63.

If im a coach i would NEVER let that happen in my team, the ballhog goes to the bench until he realices this is a team game.

Maybe one of the reasons why you are not a NBA coach is that you would bench Michael Jordan during a game where he was almost superhuman while dragging a dog Bulls team to double overtime against one of the greatest teams of all time. If the Bulls won a single game in that series it would have been a huge upset. The Celtics only lost 15 games all regular season and 3 playoff games that year. They were an incredible 40-1 at home that season.

Jordan was doing all this coming off a broken foot (probably not 100%) that limited him to 18 regular season games all year. Chicago had no business even being close to those Celtics that year.

As I said previously I hated Jordan (as a diehard Knicks fan) but give the guy his due. He earned it.

SLY WILLIAMS
08-29-2013, 04:28 PM
lol, always have some old 50 year old guy who thinks his time beats the modern era by a mile. if you're the GOAT, you should be winning more than 1 game in the playoffs. not hating on Jordan, clearly the best ever.. but stop overrating him. He never started winning big time until Pippen showed up. Also, how did bulls make it into the playoffs with a record of 30-52? incredibly weak.

You are arguing that correlation equals causation which is often a poor and misleading argument. Pippen was a 20 minute bench player when Jordan first started winning playoff games/series. Even guys like Dave Corzine and Brad Sellers had bigger roles then Pippen in the first year Jordan started winning playoff series. Jordan was Jordan. The greatest in the world with or without Pippen. When one of the best of all time in Larry Bird calls you God on a basketball court (in only his 2nd year) I think the debate pretty much ends right then and there.

Kashmir13579
08-29-2013, 05:54 PM
Maybe one of the reasons why you are not a NBA coach is that you would bench Michael Jordan during a game where he was almost superhuman while dragging a dog Bulls team to double overtime against one of the greatest teams of all time. If the Bulls won a single game in that series it would have been a huge upset. The Celtics only lost 15 games all regular season and 3 playoff games that year. They were an incredible 40-1 at home that season.

Jordan was doing all this coming off a broken foot (probably not 100%) that limited him to 18 regular season games all year. Chicago had no business even being close to those Celtics that year.

As I said previously I hated Jordan (as a diehard Knicks fan) but give the guy his due. He earned it.
Go sit in time-out, Hellcrooner.

rjkgr
08-29-2013, 06:04 PM
its okay pippen was a lock down d-fender and you cant take anything away from michael tho?

valade16
08-29-2013, 06:49 PM
lol, always have some old 50 year old guy who thinks his time beats the modern era by a mile. if you're the GOAT, you should be winning more than 1 game in the playoffs. not hating on Jordan, clearly the best ever.. but stop overrating him. He never started winning big time until Pippen showed up. Also, how did bulls make it into the playoffs with a record of 30-52? incredibly weak.

I sure hope your dyslexic and you meant 52-30, otherwise... seriously?

gaughan333
08-29-2013, 07:05 PM
blah blah blah.

Excuses, excuses, excuses.

The sam excuses kobe fans do now when he goes on his shooting sprees.

he had six assists? nice.
Make them 10 and thats 8 to 12 more points for your team.


Sorry, i will take Hakeems/ Robertson / Robinson / Thurmond quadruple doubles in games any day of the week over Wilts 100 Kobes 81 and jordans 63.

If im a coach i would NEVER let that happen in my team, the ballhog goes to the bench until he realices this is a team game.

Your team wouldn't win many games

SLY WILLIAMS
08-29-2013, 07:09 PM
I sure hope your dyslexic and you meant 52-30, otherwise... seriously?

Jordan only played in 18 games that season. They started the season 3-0. I believe Jordan broke his foot in the third game. After Jordan was out they fell off a cliff record wise. In those days players like Walton, Cartwright, Bowie, etc had many issues when they broke their feet repeatedly so many fans and the media did not even want Jordan to come back that season. They looked at it as a wasted season. Jordan insisted on coming back and trying to get that last playoff spot. He came back for the last 15 games I think but he was not 100%. They were worried about reinjury. He came off the bench for like 15 minutes a game. I dont think they let him start until the last 3-5 games of the season.

valade16
08-29-2013, 07:48 PM
Jordan only played in 18 games that season. They started the season 3-0. I believe Jordan broke his foot in the third game. After Jordan was out they fell off a cliff record wise. In those days players like Walton, Cartwright, Bowie, etc had many issues when they broke their feet repeatedly so many fans and the media did not even want Jordan to come back that season. They looked at it as a wasted season. Jordan insisted on coming back and trying to get that last playoff spot. He came back for the last 15 games I think but he was not 100%. They were worried about reinjury. He came off the bench for like 15 minutes a game. I dont think they let him start until the last 3-5 games of the season.

Damn, I didn't realize their record was that bad. That being said, I looked and they went 9-9 when Jordan played and 21-43 when he didn't.

As if the guy I was responding to or Hellcrooner needed further proof that MJ was the difference maker on that team.

BULLSFAN0810
08-29-2013, 10:04 PM
Jordan before Pippen was A ALLSTAR on an expansion team... The bulls were founded in 1966 if im correct ,and didnt get out of expansion mode until they drafted Jordan in 84. The dude Mj was basically on a bad team for years so of course he would start winning if they drafted better talent ...lets use LOGIC. Pippen was not great or good...JORDAN tortured him in practice until pippen became better,and overcame his head aches. Jordan is Great but after awhile due to age,mileage Pippen became Jordans equal...and thats quiet as kept

*note for you Jordan haters ..IF IT TOOK THE BULLS UNTIL THEY DRAFTED JORDAN TO GET OUT OF EXPANSION MODE..IT TOOK THEM almost 20 years to get the organization on track. sOME CLAIM oRLADO NEVER GOT OUT OF EXPANSION MODE DUE TO sHAQ LEAVING .

SLY WILLIAMS
08-30-2013, 12:06 PM
I agree about MJ starting out on a horrible team but I do not think Pippen ever became equal to MJ as Bulls players. Pippen was an all star level player but Jordan was a superstar greatest player of all time type player. There was a significant difference in their level as players.

Jordan was the best offensive player in his time.

Jordan was one the best defensive players of his time.

I could not stand the guy but I grudgingly give him his due respect.

SLY WILLIAMS
08-30-2013, 12:08 PM
2 other quick points.

1. People may sometimes forget Jordan won defensive player of the year.

2. When the Xman was intimidating Pippen in the playoffs it was Jordan who stood up nose to nose with the Xman.

D-Leethal
08-30-2013, 01:41 PM
Sly to Hellcronner: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eslz06J9hFw

SLY WILLIAMS
08-30-2013, 02:06 PM
LOL that was funny. I'm normally a nice guy. :)

Kushed
08-30-2013, 02:17 PM
How about this question:

Put Jordan on the 2007 Cavs, does that team go to the Finals?

SLY WILLIAMS
08-30-2013, 02:33 PM
How about this question:

Put Jordan on the 2007 Cavs, does that team go to the Finals?

Impossible for me to answer with any degree of certainty but I view Jordan as a better player than Lebron so if you are talking at equal points of their career I would lean towards a yes answer if taking a guess. Beating the Wizards, Nets, and Pistons is not the same as playing the 1985 Celtics.

Now how about this question. Does Miami with Jordan (instead of Lebron), Wade, and Bosh beat Dirks Mavs?

Kushed
08-30-2013, 02:38 PM
Impossible for me to answer with any degree of certainty but I view Jordan as a better player than Lebron so if you are talking at equal points of their career I would lean towards a yes answer if taking a guess. Beating the Wizards, Nets, and Pistons is not the same as playing the 1985 Celtics.

Now how about this question. Does Miami with Jordan (instead of Lebron), Wade, and Bosh beat Dirks Mavs?

I'd say yes, definitely. The only reason I'd be skeptical about Jordan taking the 2007 Cavs to the finals is because I don't think he's as good a playmaker for his teammates as LeBron is.

And that's not to mention that LeBron had to pull his best Jordan impression to beat the Pistons (29 of last 30 points in game 5)

OceanSpray
08-30-2013, 04:25 PM
Jordan would not carry a team better than James. You need more supplementary pieces for Jordan than James. That's not saying James>Jordan. James is a more complete player than Jordan and although he couldn't reach the holy grail in his Cleveland days, I don't think Jordan could have either. Heck, the guy had to score 25 straight points against the tough Pistons and not to mention basically having the pressure to face the big three of the Celtics for a huge duration of the playoffs.

D-Leethal
08-30-2013, 04:32 PM
Jordan would not carry a team better than James. You need more supplementary pieces for Jordan than James. That's not saying James>Jordan. James is a more complete player than Jordan and although he couldn't reach the holy grail in his Cleveland days, I don't think Jordan could have either. Heck, the guy had to score 25 straight points against the tough Pistons and not to mention basically having the pressure to face the big three of the Celtics for a huge duration of the playoffs.

Jordan would eat LeBrons soul until he left the court in tears.

OceanSpray
08-30-2013, 04:35 PM
Jordan would not carry a team better than James. You need more supplementary pieces for Jordan than James. That's not saying James>Jordan. James is a more complete player than Jordan and although he couldn't reach the holy grail in his Cleveland days, I don't think Jordan could have either. Heck, the guy had to score 25 straight points against the tough Pistons and not to mention basically having the pressure to face the big three of the Celtics for a huge duration of the playoffs.

Jordan would eat LeBrons soul until he left the court in tears.

This is based off the fact that Jordan....? I love these type of assumptions.

SLY WILLIAMS
08-30-2013, 04:47 PM
This is based off the fact that Jordan....? I love these type of assumptions.

Lebron would be fine in most games and first 3 quarters but late in games including late game free throws my money would be on Jordan ever time. Dleethal is right in that regard. Jordan like Bird had unbreakable confidence. Lebron has not shown that he is as strong mentally.

OceanSpray
08-30-2013, 04:53 PM
This is based off the fact that Jordan....? I love these type of assumptions.

Lebron would be fine in most games and first 3 quarters but late in games including late game free throws my money would be on Jordan ever time. Dleethal is right in that regard. Jordan like Bird had unbreakable confidence. Lebron has not shown that he is as strong mentally.

I fail to see what this even has to do with the comparisons. As for this confidence thing, does that mean Kobe is better than LeBron?

bearadonisdna
08-30-2013, 05:25 PM
Jordan would not carry a team better than James. You need more supplementary pieces for Jordan than James. That's not saying James>Jordan. James is a more complete player than Jordan and although he couldn't reach the holy grail in his Cleveland days, I don't think Jordan could have either. Heck, the guy had to score 25 straight points against the tough Pistons and not to mention basically having the pressure to face the big three of the Celtics for a huge duration of the playoffs.

What evidence do you have that Lebron could carry a team better? Jason Kidd and Allen Iverson won the east with teams probably worse than lebrons cavs final team. Jordan is better than those players. You say Lebron makes more plays for his team but per 36 minutes Lebrons has 6.3 assists and Jordan has 4.9. Thats a differential of a whopping 1.4 assists.
Rebounding: Lebron 6.6 rebs per 36
Jordan 5.9 rebs in the corresponding category.

The things Lebron does do better than Jordan is marginal.
Where are all these supplementary pieces that Jordan needs that Lebron doesnt? Jordan's first title run they had one allstar pippen.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html

Bruno
08-30-2013, 05:27 PM
Jordan would not carry a team better than James. You need more supplementary pieces for Jordan than James. That's not saying James>Jordan. James is a more complete player than Jordan and although he couldn't reach the holy grail in his Cleveland days, I don't think Jordan could have either. Heck, the guy had to score 25 straight points against the tough Pistons and not to mention basically having the pressure to face the big three of the Celtics for a huge duration of the playoffs.

didn't witness MJ in his prime did you?

bearadonisdna
08-30-2013, 05:40 PM
Ive read the post/s that mentions how a jordan less bulls only lost 2 less games without him which is really circumstantial. The Bulls went from winning the division to losing the division to the Hawks.

SLY WILLIAMS
08-30-2013, 05:50 PM
I fail to see what this even has to do with the comparisons. As for this confidence thing, does that mean Kobe is better than LeBron?

I'm not sure why you would not understand how important it is to mentally tough in late game situations. You ever see Jordan miss 2 free throws in a crucial last minute situation? Have you ever seen Lebron? That unshakable confidence is a major reason why Jordan and Bird were the most clutch players I have seen.

Kobe is not better than Lebron. Kobe was not close to Jordan either but if I had to take a prime Kobe or a prime Lebron going to the line in the last minute of a game 7 with the score plus or minus 2 points I would rather have Kobe than Lebron. The mental toughness that Jordan had helped him be the best game finisher.

Lebron is a great player. Jordan being the best ever does not mean that Lebron is not great as well. They are just great in different ways.

Guppyfighter
08-30-2013, 06:08 PM
The argument that Michael Jordan would eat Lebron's lunch because confidence is one that is born from nostalgia.

It's a skip bayless argument. It's dumb. You want to discuss basketball, but when you say things like this it shows you don't want to engage in any kind of higher discussion about basketball.

SLY WILLIAMS
08-30-2013, 06:26 PM
The argument that Michael Jordan would eat Lebron's lunch because confidence is one that is born from nostalgia.

It's a Skip Bayless argument. It's dumb. You want to discuss basketball, but when you say things like this it shows you don't want to engage in any kind of higher discussion about basketball.

Actually you kind of combined two posts by two different people but that is is okay. I stand behind my post that Jordan was tougher mentally and better in crucial late game situations. I also said Lebron would be fine in most of the game and Lebron is a great player. I never listen to or watched Skip Bayless so if it is something he has mentioned that is purely coincidental.

You can call my post dumb if you like but that does not make it dumb. It just means you would rather insult somebody that discuss actual basketball. As far as a higher discussion of basketball goes I will continue to speak about the players whose careers I have seen from day 1 till today and you can continues to hurl insults instead of facts.

Bostonjorge
08-30-2013, 06:55 PM
During jordans era I believe the only guy who could stop him was pippen. I do believe Jordan made pippen take his game to the next level. After the first title that pippen maybe not lead but could be led to beat Jordan. U put pippen with a top player like Barkley, Ewing, Hakeem ect. Then they finally have someone to truly battle Jordan on the defensive end. Bigger and stronger pippen would not fear Jordan after guarding magic on the biggest stage the finals.

Pippen was a big part of making Jordan the greatest winner of all time.

hidalgo
08-30-2013, 07:03 PM
I think Jordan is clearly better than Lebron, but I do think LeBron is far more worthy of being compared to Jordan than Kobe is. LeBron is that good, that it doesn't make me mad to discuss it, even if LeBron still comes up well short. LeBron is running the NBA now, as THE MAN, the BEST & it's not close (like how Jordan was in his era)

we do know that Jordan wouldn't have played as bad a LeBron did in 07 vs the Spurs, or 2011 vs the Mavericks. Michael never had even 1 bad playoff series, he showed up big everytime

and people need to actually watch the 1991 finals, Jordan guarded Magic 80% of the time. (& Pippen couldn't stop Jordan in practice & scrimmages, & couldn't in a game either, nobody could) MJ saw him almost every day in practice etc, Pip guarded MJ all the time, I'm sure he knew exactly how to score on Pippen, & the stories about it back that up

bearadonisdna
08-30-2013, 07:03 PM
During jordans era I believe the only guy who could stop him was pippen. I do believe Jordan made pippen take his game to the next level. After the first title that pippen maybe not lead but could be led to beat Jordan. U put pippen with a top player like Barkley, Ewing, Hakeem ect. Then they finally have someone to truly battle Jordan on the defensive end. Bigger and stronger pippen would not fear Jordan after guarding magic on the biggest stage the finals.

Pippen was a big part of making Jordan the greatest winner of all time.

Absolutely.

OceanSpray
08-31-2013, 02:37 AM
didn't witness MJ in his prime did you?

Did you see Wilt? Question answered.

OceanSpray
08-31-2013, 02:39 AM
What evidence do you have that Lebron could carry a team better? Jason Kidd and Allen Iverson won the east with teams probably worse than lebrons cavs final team. Jordan is better than those players. You say Lebron makes more plays for his team but per 36 minutes Lebrons has 6.3 assists and Jordan has 4.9. Thats a differential of a whopping 1.4 assists.
Rebounding: Lebron 6.6 rebs per 36
Jordan 5.9 rebs in the corresponding category.

The things Lebron does do better than Jordan is marginal.
Where are all these supplementary pieces that Jordan needs that Lebron doesnt? Jordan's first title run they had one allstar pippen.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html

What evidence do you have that Jordan would carry Cleveland farther than LeBron? You don't. It's just based off his reputation and that's what you guys use. "Jordan has the will to carry his team", "That killer instinct". It's funny because those two traits weren't what people were saying his first 6 years.

OceanSpray
08-31-2013, 02:44 AM
I'm not sure why you would not understand how important it is to mentally tough in late game situations. You ever see Jordan miss 2 free throws in a crucial last minute situation? Have you ever seen Lebron? That unshakable confidence is a major reason why Jordan and Bird were the most clutch players I have seen.

Kobe is not better than Lebron. Kobe was not close to Jordan either but if I had to take a prime Kobe or a prime Lebron going to the line in the last minute of a game 7 with the score plus or minus 2 points I would rather have Kobe than Lebron. The mental toughness that Jordan had helped him be the best game finisher.

Lebron is a great player. Jordan being the best ever does not mean that Lebron is not great as well. They are just great in different ways.

Again, what does this have to do with anything? You're talking about 4th quarter, something that stats run into LeBron's favor. It's a misconception that James isn't clutch. When it's James, everything is on a microscopic level. When was the last time a player other than James got criticized for not closing out games even when they didn't close out the game? Only player that comes to mind is Derrick Rose and most recently, Durant. Kobe never gets criticized because he takes all the shots and like people always say, it's always the ones you make that people remember. People like you are all just nostalgic and living in the good old memories when mommy used to tuck you into bed after you sipped the warm milk and cookies. Stop using nonsensical figurative languages as proof. Fact is you can't compare players of different generations because there are a lot of variables going to basketball. It's not like track where there's a timer and the distance always stays the same. But I'm not going to argue, someone is going to come out and use a Skip Bayless reference. As I said, Jordan imo is the GOAT but if you think he's miles ahead of Kobe/James.. you just can't let go of the past.

jerellh528
08-31-2013, 06:48 AM
MJ is a ghost

Bartlee23
08-31-2013, 10:35 AM
Again, what does this have to do with anything? You're talking about 4th quarter, something that stats run into LeBron's favor. It's a misconception that James isn't clutch. When it's James, everything is on a microscopic level. When was the last time a player other than James got criticized for not closing out games even when they didn't close out the game? Only player that comes to mind is Derrick Rose and most recently, Durant. Kobe never gets criticized because he takes all the shots and like people always say, it's always the ones you make that people remember. People like you are all just nostalgic and living in the good old memories when mommy used to tuck you into bed after you sipped the warm milk and cookies. Stop using nonsensical figurative languages as proof. Fact is you can't compare players of different generations because there are a lot of variables going to basketball. It's not like track where there's a timer and the distance always stays the same. But I'm not going to argue, someone is going to come out and use a Skip Bayless reference. As I said, Jordan imo is the GOAT but if you think he's miles ahead of Kobe/James.. you just can't let go of the past.

How do any stats run in Lebron's favor? Jordan is probably the most clutch player of all-time. You are the type of person I can't stand. You never saw Jordan play yet you are an expert on everything about him. Lebron in your eyes is the greatest because he's on your team. Those who have witnessed both Jordan and Lebron play ( players and fans) have Jordan ahead of Lebron by a significant amount. Lebron will always be looked at the guy who left his hometown because he couldn't win with the team or organization he was in. Players like Jordan, Magic, Bird,etc will always be looked at as better players/winners because they stayed with their teams and won. They didn't form superteams to win a championship. I will love to see how you feel about your team next year when it is broke up or how you feel about Lebron if he did leave Miami?

Kobe did whine and wanted to leave the Lakers but in the end did not and Lebron left and didn't stick it out like Jordan did until the franchise built around him. The only two things I have learned from your posts are...

1. You really have no clue what you are talking about.

2. You never got tucked in at night for cookies and milk..... wah. Go cry somewhere else.

SLY WILLIAMS
08-31-2013, 12:21 PM
Again, what does this have to do with anything? You're talking about 4th quarter, something that stats run into LeBron's favor. It's a misconception that James isn't clutch. When it's James, everything is on a microscopic level. When was the last time a player other than James got criticized for not closing out games even when they didn't close out the game? Only player that comes to mind is Derrick Rose and most recently, Durant. Kobe never gets criticized because he takes all the shots and like people always say, it's always the ones you make that people remember. People like you are all just nostalgic and living in the good old memories when mommy used to tuck you into bed after you sipped the warm milk and cookies. Stop using nonsensical figurative languages as proof. Fact is you can't compare players of different generations because there are a lot of variables going to basketball. It's not like track where there's a timer and the distance always stays the same. But I'm not going to argue, someone is going to come out and use a Skip Bayless reference. As I said, Jordan imo is the GOAT but if you think he's miles ahead of Kobe/James.. you just can't let go of the past.

I'm not sure why you think being the best all time game finisher with ice in his veins is irrelevant to a discussion of a player. I'm not sure what stats you are talking about that would make Lebron a better late game finisher than Jordan. The Skip Bayless reference was just a red herring type of reply.

Lebron is an all time great player. Jordan was the best player ever. I did not say Jordan was miles ahead of Lebron, Kobe, or any player. Why would anyone let go of facts whether in the past or the present. Facts are facts. They do not expire after 20 years.

Bruno
08-31-2013, 01:26 PM
Did you see Wilt? Question answered.

no, the question wasn't answered.

actually, it was. thanks.

bearadonisdna
08-31-2013, 04:30 PM
What evidence do you have that Jordan would carry Cleveland farther than LeBron? You don't. It's just based off his reputation and that's what you guys use. "Jordan has the will to carry his team", "That killer instinct". It's funny because those two traits weren't what people were saying his first 6 years.

The evidence is that the weak east era where lebron won his first ECF players lesser than him accomplished the same thing. And Jordan is the best player in the convo so u do the math.
Also the evidence is in Jordan carrying a team with one all star to a three peat while lebron has two all stars and then u say jordan needs more supplemental pieces.
You practically admitted u never saw jordan in his prime and then make crazy proclamations like that.

D-Leethal
09-01-2013, 10:43 AM
The argument that Michael Jordan would eat Lebron's lunch because confidence is one that is born from nostalgia.

It's a skip bayless argument. It's dumb. You want to discuss basketball, but when you say things like this it shows you don't want to engage in any kind of higher discussion about basketball.

lol, says the dude who thinks the "hot hand" is nothing but a statistical anomaly.

OceanSpray
09-01-2013, 11:45 PM
Okay, you guys are right. Jordan didn't have the greatest rebounder of all time. He also never had the greatest wing defender of all time. He also wasn't 1-9 in the playoffs without Scottie Pippen. Let's all disregard these facts and use the "Jordan walked on water" arguments.

You can't compare players of different era and act like they'll cakewalk or destroy them because of what happened in their era. There are much too many factors that changed the game. The game isn't the same as before, and clearly you can see it has transitioned into a much different game. How do you know Jordan will benefit from such rules? Is there visual proof? No, so every argument seems to be based off Jordan's reputation. Kobe's determination and will to win is on par with Jordan, do you think he's better than James? It's always a bashing when you compare Jordan with any other player. Their nostalgic memories of Jordan's reputation triggers their falsified thoughts to defend what they felt most comfortable with in their childhood.

JasonJohnHorn
09-02-2013, 02:46 AM
And Jordan lost to the Pistons in 3 out of 4 series.... Dumars > Jordan!!!!

PurpleLynch
09-02-2013, 06:08 AM
A question no one is answering is:how James will handle his age. We can't say that is better than Jordan until he's done with the Nba. Jordan at 34 won a championship against the best team Utah had in his history,leading the Bulls in points,apg and 2nd behind Rodman in rebound. We'll see where Lebron will be at 34,but for now,this kind of conversation is pointless.

Ps:before comparing Lebron to mj,try with Bird(24ppg,10rpg,6apg in his whole career,playoffs also)/James debate:they have the same position.

Bartlee23
09-02-2013, 10:59 AM
Okay, you guys are right. Jordan didn't have the greatest rebounder of all time. He also never had the greatest wing defender of all time. He also wasn't 1-9 in the playoffs without Scottie Pippen. Let's all disregard these facts and use the "Jordan walked on water" arguments.

You can't compare players of different era and act like they'll cakewalk or destroy them because of what happened in their era. There are much too many factors that changed the game. The game isn't the same as before, and clearly you can see it has transitioned into a much different game. How do you know Jordan will benefit from such rules? Is there visual proof? No, so every argument seems to be based off Jordan's reputation. Kobe's determination and will to win is on par with Jordan, do you think he's better than James? It's always a bashing when you compare Jorda with any other player. Their nostalgic memories of Jordan's reputation triggers their falsified thoughts to defend what they felt most comfortable with in their childhood.

Dennis Rodman was already starting his 10th season in the league hen he started with Chicago. He played 64 games the first season with Chicago and 55 the next. ( not counting playoffs ) He never barely averaged 5 points a game and was never an all-star. He did play good defense but was a distraction part of the time due to the player he was.

Pippen was a great wing defender and a good scorer. He was clearly Robin though.... not Batman nor could he really step into that role. Jordan was the greatest at everything he did because he wanted to be the greatest.

Kobe is a great scorer but not the same defensive player Jordan was. He's the same in his will to win but other than copying the way he walks and some of his moves, that's where the comparison ends. I would maybe want the ball in Kobe's hands for a last shot ( over LeBron) because I would have more confidence that he would make it. Lebron is a better defender, rebounder, and contributor than Kobe is.

If you would like to keep your " nostalgic memories " argument going, go right ahead but speaking from one person who has seen both play live many times. ( since you didn't ) Along with other fans, players, all-time greats, etc. Jordan is the best of all time, he deserves everything said about him and I would still love to see what you think of your boy Lebron and your team when it is broke up next year.