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PatsSoxKnicks
08-27-2013, 04:40 PM
Every summer, PSD holds a game which mocks that year's NBA offseason. This year, users from the site took the reigns of NBA franchises and had to utilize their skills via draft, trades, and free agency to improve their teams. At the end of the game, GMs voted on how they believed the regular season of this game would shake up. These are the playoffs of PSD's 2013 NBA Mock Offseason.

Please take the time to consider each line up, the match-up itself, and vote on which team you believe would win in a seven game series.

The Bulls have homecourt advantage.

Bulls Depth Chart:

PG: Deron Williams (38) l JJ Barea (10) l Peyton Siva
SG: Thabo Sefolosha (38) l Landry Fields (7) l JJ Barea (3)
SF: Kawhi Leonard (40) l Landry Fields (8) l Teletovic
PF: Al Horford (30) l Brandon Bass (18) l
C: Tim Duncan (38) l Al Horford (10) l Aaron Gray

Knicks Depth Chart:

PG Chris Paul (36) / D.J. Augustin (12) / C.J. McCollum
SG J.R. Smith (33) / Caron Butler (15) / Sergey Karasev
SF Shane Battier (25) / Carmelo Anthony (18) / Caron Butler (5)
PF Carmelo Anthony (20) / Tyler Hansbrough (20) / Kenyon Martin (8) / Channing Frye
C Tyson Chandler (32) / Kenyon Martin (16)

Bulls Write-up:



We Would like to congratulate MBT and KOB for reaching this round of the playoffs and a job well done

Offensively we feel that we will be able to run our game effectively and efficiently. The only real above average defender starting for the Knicks is Tyson Chandler and while he is very good outside of him there are a couple average defenders and some poor defenders. Shane Battier is not what he once was defensively and Melo and JR both struggling on this end of the floor will lead to us getting baskets. Here are some numbers showing how some of the current Knicks were defensively last year:

Shane Battier- .86PPP overall defensively ranking 169th, .86PPP on Iso's ranking 205th, .93PPP on spot up ranking 133rd (0.1 RAPM)

Chris Paul- .83PPP overall defensively ranking 107th, .81PPP Iso ranking 158th, 1.01 PPP spot up ranking 231st (0.5 RAPM)

Carmelo Anthony- .87PPP overall ranking 195th, .86PPP on Isos ranking 234th, 1.02 PPP on spot up defense ranking 240th, (-1.7 RAPM)

Caron Butler- .96PPP overall defensively ranking 393rd, 1.03PPP on Iso's ranking 310th, 1.14 PPP on spot ups ranking 353rd (-1.5 RAPM)

As you can tell, not only will their close out defense on our shooters be bad, because they all arenít good against spot up shooting, but they all canít defend our players 1 on 1. This is going to leave us with tons of open looks and easy baskets. Not to mention how significantly better our rebounding as a whole group is compared to theirs. Every player on our team can space the floor and effectively and consistently knock down jumpers.

Whether its Thabo, Deron or Kawhi hitting open 3ís, which Thabo knocked down at a 41% clip, Kawhi at a 37% clip and bumped it up to 39% the whole playoffs while averaging about 2 a game, and Deron who averaged an amazing 40% on about 6 attempts per game in these past playoffs is just bad news for the Knicks. Add those percentages to go along with the Knicks horrible rebounding, one of which Melo averages about 6.7 boards per 36, which for a PF is brutal. Then the supporting cast of Paul, Battier, J.R Smith and Butler not being above average rebounders either is going to be a massive headache because of all the extra possessions we are going to consistently get. While Tyson is a good rebounder, we boast Duncan who averaged 10 a game, Horford who averaged 10.2 a game, and Kawhi Leonard who averaged 7.2 per 36 minutes in the regular season and in the finals averaged about 11 rebounds a game against a Heat squad that featured good rebounders in Wade, Lebron and Bosh. We also feel that we will have the ability to get out on the fast break as well because we are going to have a big rebounding advantage. This will lead to fast break opportunities when required and also 2nd chance points which will play a major role in this series. In transition, he's (Kawhi) an excellent 37th, and on cuts he's 98th which is quite respectable.
Both Deron Williams and Thabo Sefolosha had career highs in WS/48. Sefolosha having a .49 better WS/48 than any other year he's been in the league, while Deron Williams surpassed even his playing level from his Utah Jazz days. To continue on Williams, when Deron Williams and Chris Paul face off in Head2Head games over the course of their careers, they both average 16 PPG. The catch? Paul has shot 43% and 29% from 3 in those games, while Deron Williams has shot a high 50% and a respectable 37% from 3. To add to it, Deron Williams is 14-5 in his career against Chris Paul.

Tyson Chandler is coming off a brutal playoffs that had him firstly bullied down by an older, declining Kevin Garnett (which doesn't seem to be the case with Duncan). Then against an elite PF/C combo in Indiana, he averaged 6 rebounds per game, with an average of 4.8 fouls in 29 minutes. If this is what Tyson Chandler was able to do against a declining Kevin Garnett (something I must add is that the Celtics had no depth at all in the frontcourt, leaving it a tired Garnett at that) and one of the better PF/C combo's in the league,what is he supposed to do against Al Horford and Tim Duncan? With little help next to him I might add?

Our plan is to do a lot of pick and roll to bring Chandler away from the rim whether that be with Al Horford or Tim Duncan who have both shown the ability to play well in the pick and roll and whoever Tyson isnít guarding will be able to post up either Battier or Melo. Take for example Al Horford ranks 15th in the NBA on points scored per play on pick-and-rolls, making 59 of 96 (62 percent). Then we have our primary ball handler and while people may be writing him off, last year he was very good offensively obtaining an Offensive RAPM of 5.1, 9.1 Offensive Win Shares, and a TS% of .574 which is higher than Carmeloís who many believe had an amazing offensive year.

One last thing as I have said it before, efficiency will be huge for us. Here is the TS% of each of our guys last year
Deron Williams: .574
Thabo Sefolosha: .617
Kawhi Leonard: .592
Al Horford: .560
Tim Duncan: .554

So we would like to ask, since the Knicks players will be inefficient offensively and get destroyed defensively against our extremely efficient and balanced offensive and defensive attack, how do they plan on winning this series?

Our defensive game plan to start is to have Thabo Sefolosha guard Chris Paul. Since 2012 in Head2Head games between these two, other than one game in which Paul managed to drop 31 points on 11-20 shooting, his shooting wasn't exactly what you'd expect from the superstar.

**Take Note of the percentages carefully.

The other games he shot 3-12, 5-12, 2-14 and 8-21 from the field. As you can tell extremely inefficient, and not something you would expect from Paul, is it?
Another critical point to keep in mind is, when Melo is primarily handling the ball and CP3 is expected to play of the ball, this is another factor that plays a huge advantage in our favor. CP3 shot a whopping 32% from beyond the arc last year, this held true, come playoff time to because he averaged the same while attempting about 3 a game.

Other than putting one of the best perimeter defenders on Paul, this allows us to have Kawhi Leonard primarily focus on Carmelo Anthony. Leonard has the size, and speed to keep up with Anthony. In a limited sample size be, take it for what you will but definitely can hold true because everyone saw how inefficient Kawhi made Lebron, so imagine a player like Melo. As it's known league wide, Kawhi Leonard and Paul George have a similar skillset. In the playoffs, George's defense on Anthony was a big reason why the Pacers were able to eliminate the Knicks from the playoffs this past year.
In the three games theyíve faced of, these are the following numbers Melo posted with Kawhi defending him.
19.7 PPG, 7 RPG, while shooting 43% on 19 shots attempted and averaged about 3 FTAís and shot that at a 67% clip. Another key note to take in Melo averaged about 3 Fouls in that span.

If thatís not good enough defense, then we have another Melo stopper in Brandon Bass, of the bench whoís coming of an amazing playoff showing guarding Melo and the main reason why the Celtics had a glimmer of hope against the Knicks.

This gives us the chance to always have someone guard Anthony throughout the series. Whether it's when someone needs rest, gets into foul trouble or is just struggling in general. We have two players that have the ability and size to guard him effectively. If Kawhi Leonard, and Brandon Bass for the matter, can hold him to a similar shooting percentage, we like our chances in this series. More importantly, if we manage to make Carmelo struggle like we feel we can, we have no question that Carmelo would get frustrated. And what his frustration has shown in the pass is that it leads him to shoot more. We can't imagine this would be good chemistry with Chris Paul. As much of a team friendly, pass first player Paul is, he's going to have to be just as much of a score first player as Carmelo Anthony.

As seen in the past, J.R. Smith cannot be trusted as a legitimate scoring option. He's as streaky as they come and is known as a "chucker" as most would say. In fact, if the Knicks decide to start him like they did in their previous series against the Celtics, we believe this plays into our favor. Starting a 6th man who has had a mentality throughout his career of coming in only for scoring purposes is always a recipe for disaster and devalues the Knicks team as a whole, because then they donít have a proven scorer to provide a spark offensively of the bench from the perimeter and down low.

As for our bigs, we intend to have Al Horford guard Shane Battier. We realize that Tim Duncan has the better ability to play outside, but we also know Shane Battier cannot, and will not beat us with his speed and that he's nothing more than a jumpshooter offensively. We feel comfortable with leaving one of our bigs out on the perimeter with his size, and length to guard a shooter.
Not to mention, Shane Battier at this point in his career is not a starter, not to mention he averaged 24 minutes the last year, and that doesnít even tell the whole story because those numbers werenít accumulated over a full season. Heís played 23, 65 and 72 games the past 3 years and even in these past playoffs got benched a lot. Not to mention these past playoffs he only played an average of 17 minutes. If a team like the Heat who love spacing for Wade and Lebron, didnít give Battier substantial minutes, then how can he be expected to be counted upon for this series against a team where he canít be hid without having his declining defense exposed and lack of offensive explosion?

Having Horford guard Battier leaves us with the chance to have Tim Duncan stay in the paint to be the defensive presence that he is in case Carmelo Anthony, J.R. Smith or Chris Paul are able to get past any of Thabo Sefolosha, Kawhi Leonard, Deron Williams or Brandon Bass. And no, as good of an alley-oop target Tyson Chandler can be, we're not worried about his offensive game. And to say he used to be a double-double machine with Chris Paul is foolish. Last time they played together Tyson Chandler was 26, while Chris Paul was in the prime of his career. That's not to say Paul's not in his prime today. But what he was able to do those years were truly something special and something he hasnít repeated for a while now.

Now when we go to the bench, we feel we have nothing to worry about. Caron Butler was really something else last year. He showed the ability to shoot the 3, but overall was really horrific last year. His defense was beyond awful, but we'll talk about that in other parts. Then you have D.J. Augustin, who shot 35% last year. We don't expect to see much of him anyway, seeing how Paul is in front of him and his inability to play SG.
Tyler Hansbrough is nothing more than a hustle guy. He's never proven to be a consistent option anywhere. His career 36% in the playoffs is nothing to get excited about. Maybe he can hustle his was into some rebounds, as his team will need it. Having Battier or Anthony play PF against Al Horford and Tim Duncan is sure to go against you on the boards. As for Kenyon Martin, we see nothing offensively and a body the Knicks are going to use once Tyson, Melo, Battier or Caron are to get into foul trouble. As you can see the depth the Knicks have is awful because there is no offensive spark to be provided of the bench and should their top scoring options get shut down or get into foul trouble, where is the offense consistently going to come from?

We on the other hand have JJ. Barea, proven 6th man who was a key cog of the bench for the Mavs against the Heat, the year they won the title. Brandon Bass as a high calibre bench big that can play the SF, PF or even C spot at times, that provides really solid defense and a good PnR mid range jump shot.

Knicks Write-up:



The Bulls GMís have done a phenomenal job and both teams have had their share of had friendly jabs in anticipation of this matchup, but this Knicks team has multiple, significant advantages which makes New York the clear choice in a hard-fought series.

1. Play-Making and Perimeter Shooting: We have a slight advantage in the latter and a significant advantage in the former. The Knicks roster provides four legitimate 3-point shooting threats in the starting lineup alone (Paul, Smith, Battier and Melo) with good spot-up shooters like Butler, Augustin and Frye off the bench. Their pinpoint perimeter shooting will consistently spread the floor, providing Paul opportunities to penetrate on the slower Deron Williams and Melo chances to work his mid-range game and beat Horford off the dribble. The Bulls starters from PG-SF provide floor spacing on the perimeter, but their bench is severely lacking, as Barea is the only significant bench player who can shoot from beyond the arc consistently. Our shooters also have more confidence beyond the arc, as we possess four players in the top 40 in made 3-pointers last season, while the Bulls possess only one guy in the top 50 (Williams).

Play-making between the two clubs is a clear advantage in the Knicks favor, as Chris Paul is not only the best PG in the league today, but one of the greatest in league history. He has made All-Defensive 1st team and All-NBA 1st team each of the last two seasons while ranking in the top 5 in MVP shares both seasons and top 3 in PER. While his play-making skills are rarely matched, our biggest selling point in acquiring his services was he would run our offense in New York rather than carry it. He realized with reigning scoring champ Carmelo Anthony and 6th Man of the Year JR Smith at his side, he would have other play-makers capable of lightening the load and allowing him to reach his optimum performance. Both are capable of facilitating and scoring, posting in the top 32 in USG% last season with AST% over 14.0. Meanwhile, besides Deron Williams, the Bulls are in bad shape. Barea ranked 309th in the NBA in offensive production last season. So, where do the Bulls turn next? Certainly not Landry Fields, who was ranked even worse at 323rd in the NBA. Thabo is merely a spot-up shooter at 7ppg, and neither he or Leonard average even 2 assists per game or posted an AST% over 8.2 last season. To ask them to facilitate would drastically diminish their effectiveness. The Bulls have only one play-maker in Deron Williams, who will be bothered by exceptional All-NBA 1st team defender Chris Paul, who allowed only 39% shooting to opposing players and forced point guards to commit 4.6 TO per 48 minutes last season.

2. Point Guard Play - While Deron and CP3 were neck and neck early in their careers for title of best point guard, Paul has clearly distanced himself. Since 2011, heís also drastically outplayed him in their limited head to head matchups. Deron has not shot over 42% in a game against Paul since 2010, while Paul shot better than 45% in all four contests. In those four games, Paul averaged 19 points, 10 assists, 5.25 rebounds, 2.5 steals and 3 turnovers a game compared to 15 points, 8 assists, 3.25 rebounds, 1.67 steals and 3.25 turnovers for Williams. Paul not only dominated in every statistical category, but he outscored, outassisted and outshot Williams in all four contests. The most recent was a dominant 29-point, 11-assist victory against Williamsí Nets March 23 of this year, a 5-point victory in which Williams committed five fouls and Paul went to the line 13 times. When you factor in that Deron is forced to carry so much more of the load in this series, this matchup becomes even more lopsided in favor of the Knicks.

3. Who guards Carmelo? This question is relevant in every series, because Melo in his prime. He had his most efficient season (24.8 PER, .184 WS/48, 56% TS%), leading the league in scoring while facing more double and triple teams than ever before. Itís especially relevant here, because the playing Anthony at PF allows him to exploit slower bigs like Al Horford. Horford is a center, and his defensive numbers as a center were very strong. However, he gave up an atrocious 19.0 PER to opposing PFs last season and plays zero minutes against SFs, a position Melo has the speed and athleticism to play. Horford will not be able to keep up with him on the perimeter, as he has never guarded Melo in head-to-head matchups. Melo torched Horfordís Hawks for 40 and 42 points last season while being guarded by the far superior defender in Josh Smith. If, as a help defender, Horford canít stop Melo from exploding for 40, how can he be expected to guard him man-to-man?

The Bulls may switch Leonard on Melo at times, but that puts their 6í10Ē center in the corner guarding a spot-up shooter like Shane Battier. Horford was terrible in that situation, as he was ranked 253rd in guarding spot-ups last season. Should the Bulls put Leonard on Melo, Kawhi played by far his worst defense guarding the power forward position last year. According to 82games, he was actually outplayed at PF with a PER of 13.9 for Leonard and 16.0 PER for opponents. In addition, Leonardís biggest weakness as a defender is that he ranked an extremely disappointing 239th guarding post-ups. This is a huge advantage for Carmelo, because he took 470 post-ups this season and ranked 33rd in the NBA, even better than his PF counterpart Al Horford. Melo can exploit Horford with his speed off the dribble or bully Leonard down low on the block. Either way itís a huge edge for the Knicksí offense.

4. Surprising Mismatches (or Lack thereof?) Ė The Knicks pick and roll play was very effective with Tyson Chandler continuing historic levels of efficient production, leading the league in TS% again with Raymond Felton at PG. Itís no secret our pick and roll play would improve with Paul, perhaps one of the greatest pick and roll creators in the history of the NBA and a player who thrived with Chandler in New Orleans. The Bullsí best option to stop us, Tim Duncan, was merely a mediocre pick and roll defender last season. Duncan allows opposing bigs to shoot 55% on pick and roll man attempts of which Chandler already shoots 68%. On the other end, one might assume Horford would have his way with Melo in the post, but Carmelo Anthony is a solid 235 pounds and ranked an elite 16th overall in defending the post last season. Opposing bigs only shot 40-113 in the post on him for a putrid 35.4%. Coming off a series guarding the perimeter minded Patrick Patterson in Round 1, Melo will be fresh and ready to go at PF. Ironically Meloís PPP in the post tied him with Tyson Chandler was also ranked 16th in the NBA in defending the post. He only allowed players to shoot 35.6% on post-ups vs. him last season. This former DPOY from 2012 would be able to limit their interior production significantly.

5. Bench Depth Ė DJ Augustin was one of the most efficient players in the postseason for the Pacers, Caron Butler was a starter for the playoff Clippers, Tyler Hansbrough was a rotation player and ranked in the top 25 defensively for the Pacers and Kenyon Martin averaged 7ppg/5rpg shooting 60% while playing key rotation minutes for the playoff Knicks. This bench is clear, experienced and fits this roster like a glove. Meanwhile, the Bulls bench leaves a lot to be desired. Landry Fields posted an awful 10.3 PER and .052 WS/48, and will be required to play too many minutes thanks to the Bullsí lack of wing depth. Aaron Gray barely played at all for a bad Raptors team last season, and heíll also be asked to play far too many minutes behind an aging Duncan. Barea is their best offensive player off the bench, and posted a horrid 51% TS% a season ago, and Brandon just posted his lowest PER and WS/48 since 2007 and a career low in TRB% (11.2). Our bench played significant minutes for playoff teams, while the Bullsí bench consists of guys who played limited minutes for lottery teams.

6. Clutch Delivery Ė Undoubtedly there will be some tight games in this series, and you have to ask yourself a simple question: Who is more likely to come through at the end of a game? Chris Paul or Deron Williams? Carmelo Anthony or Tim Duncan? We not only have one elite option, but we have arguably two of the best in the league at closing out games. Deron Williams shot a horrific 27% from the field in clutch situations last season. Duncan wasnít even in the top 40 in scoring in clutch situations. Melo and Paul give the Knicks two deadly performers who can play off each other, hit big shots and pull the Knicks to victory in close games.

7. Chemistry - This Knicks core was purposefully not overhauled, because it was already a 54-win team that played extremely well together. JR Smith, Carmelo, Tyson and Kenyon are all back. The only true roster changes were the addition of clutch contributor Shane Battier and the upgrade of Raymond Felton to Chris Paul. The same Chris Paul who turned Tyson Chandler into a double-double machine in New Orleans and won a gold medal with both Carmelo Anthony and Tyson Chandler at the last Olympics. They have been surrounded by glue veterans that either provide defense (Hansbrough), shooting (Butler, Augustin and Frye) or both (Shane Battier). Meanwhile, this Chicago team has 0 returning rotation players. Are we supposed to believe that overnight they would develop into a championship contending team?

There is no denying the talent-level of either one of these teams. However, when you break down this matchup to its crucial elements: shooting, play-making, defensive mismatches, depth, clutch production, and chemistry, one team clearly rises to the top. That team is the Knicks. Good luck to Chicago, but we confidently believe New York deserves to advance to the Eastern Conference Finals.

PatsSoxKnicks
08-27-2013, 04:41 PM
How the hell did that all fit? :laugh2:

Eagles4Lyfe
08-27-2013, 04:47 PM
legggoooo

KnicksorBust
08-27-2013, 04:49 PM
As anticipated, the Bulls have switched Leonard on Chris Paul. This strategy means the following:

Duncan - skilled post defender will spend the game 20 feet from the basket guarding cp3 on pick and roll switches
Leonard - skilled perimeter defender will spend the game guarding league leading scorer Carmelo Anthony on the block
Horford - skilled post defender will spend the game 22 feet from the basket guarding corner 3's

They won't even have a big in the paint. How many out of position defenders does it take to mess up a defensive scheme?

Eagles4Lyfe
08-27-2013, 04:53 PM
Not so shocking the Knicks left out a defensive game plan on how to defend our team because they are well aware of how atrocious their defense would be.

KnicksorBust
08-27-2013, 04:55 PM
Do you really want to bring up TS%?

Chris Paul: .594
JR Smith: .522 (but was at .60 when he had a true PG of Billups/Miller in Denver and now has CP3)
Shane Battier: .623
Carmelo Anthony: .560
Tyson Chandler: .671

KnicksorBust
08-27-2013, 04:58 PM
Not so shocking the Knicks left out a defensive game plan on how to defend our team because they are well aware of how atrocious their defense would be.

We don't need all your gimmick switches because you have no mismatches or elite scoring options. CP3 is a far superior defender and offensive player than Deron Williams as we clearly explained in our writeup. JR Smith is perfectly adequate guarding your spot-up shooter Thabo and his 7ppg. Battier's savvy and bball IQ would significantly cut down on Leonard's transition game and cuts. Leonard is not an iso player at this point in his career (as evidenced by him only taking 47 iso shots all year and shooting 42.5% on them) so Battier just has to play smart. Meanwhile Melo and Tyson both proved last season to be among the best post defenders in the game with plenty of data to back that up. The real mismatches occur on the other side of the ball when the Knicks are on offense.

Killerjug
08-27-2013, 05:03 PM
But Al Horford isnt adquate to guard Shane Battier and his 6.6 PPG yet JR Smith can guard Thabo just fine? If you want Shane Battier to beat us we are more than welcome to letting that happen

B'sCeltsPatsSox
08-27-2013, 05:05 PM
If the Bulls had eagles do the writeup I definitely would have voted for them for sure.

Eagles4Lyfe
08-27-2013, 05:06 PM
Who guards Carmelo? This question is relevant in every series, because Melo in his prime. He had his most efficient season (24.8 PER, .184 WS/48, 56% TS%), leading the league in scoring while facing more double and triple teams than ever before.

This is nice, of course your numbers will look nice during the course of the season when your facing some horrible defenders. But why don't you guys post how inefficient he was in the playoffs when he actually had to face good defenders game in and game out, one of those being Brandon Bass, whom we have on our team.

Him averaging about 28 PPG on about 25 shot attempts?? or his 40% shooting from the field and 30% from 3 point land.




The Bulls may switch Leonard on Melo at times, but that puts their 6í10Ē center in the corner guarding a spot-up shooter like Shane Battier. Horford was terrible in that situation, as he was ranked 253rd in guarding spot-ups last season. Should the Bulls put Leonard on Melo, Kawhi played by far his worst defense guarding the power forward position last year. According to 82games, he was actually outplayed at PF with a PER of 13.9 for Leonard and 16.0 PER for opponents. In addition, Leonardís biggest weakness as a defender is that he ranked an extremely disappointing 239th guarding post-ups. This is a huge advantage for Carmelo, because he took 470 post-ups this season and ranked 33rd in the NBA, even better than his PF counterpart Al Horford. Melo can exploit Horford with his speed off the dribble or bully Leonard down low on the block. Either way itís a huge edge for the Knicksí offense.

May, of course we'd put Kawhi on Melo, we don't care if you guys line up CP3 at center or Melo at PG. A positions just assigned, doesn't mean Kawhi can't guard him. We have the numbers to prove it and last time we checked Paul George is a SF and he guarded Melo.

You keep saying Kawhi got abused in the paint, that wasn't the case in the finals against Lebron James.

Also you want to say Leonard is a weak PF defender, but yet you forget to mention how horrible a rebounder Melo is for a PF.

You can post all the numbers you want about Horford on Battier. But Horford on Battier who is supposed to only play like 15-20 minutes a game anyways is not going to kill us.
Not to mention it works both ways, who's guarding Horford in the post, Battier or Melo? Both are getting torched either way.

KnicksorBust
08-27-2013, 05:09 PM
But Al Horford isnt adquate to guard Shane Battier and his 6.6 PPG yet JR Smith can guard Thabo just fine? If you want Shane Battier to beat us we are more than welcome to letting that happen

Honestly do you really think you have a great strategy sending a 250 pound CENTER to guard a spot-up shooter 22 feet from the basket? Your paint is wide open. And you may be okay with leaving Battier open but the Spurs are sure regretting it after his 9-12 (75%) he shot from 3pt in Game 6 and Game 7 including 6 threes in that final game. If Battier is the x factor in just 1 or 2 games then we are confident Melo and CP3 can give us the rest.

KnicksorBust
08-27-2013, 05:13 PM
Leonard is a definitely an up and coming player but can we stop comparing him to Paul George? He's not as tall or strong as George and PG guarded THREE TIMES as many post-ups during the regular season as Leonard. To act like they would be guarding Carmelo Anthony exactly the same is just a blatant lie.

KnicksorBust
08-27-2013, 05:17 PM
JR Smith held spot-up shooters to 35.3% fg / 31.8%3pt and is a SG guarding a SG. Not a center drastically out of position...

Killerjug
08-27-2013, 05:21 PM
Honestly do you really think you have a great strategy sending a 250 pound CENTER to guard a spot-up shooter 22 feet from the basket? Your paint is wide open. And you may be okay with leaving Battier open but the Spurs are sure regretting it after his 9-12 (75%) he shot from 3pt in Game 6 and Game 7 including 6 threes in that final game. If Battier is the x factor in just 1 or 2 games then we are confident Melo and CP3 can give us the rest.

The same Shane Battier who also hardly cracked the lineup in several games of the Finals and Shot 3-15 combined in the first 5 games of the finals

Eagles4Lyfe
08-27-2013, 05:22 PM
Honestly do you really think you have a great strategy sending a 250 pound CENTER to guard a spot-up shooter 22 feet from the basket? Your paint is wide open. And you may be okay with leaving Battier open but the Spurs are sure regretting it after his 9-12 (75%) he shot from 3pt in Game 6 and Game 7 including 6 threes in that final game. If Battier is the x factor in just 1 or 2 games then we are confident Melo and CP3 can give us the rest.

A 250 pound center thats versatile. It's not like he's some chunky guy who has no athleticism at all. Your also banking on your guys getting into the paint a lot.
We've posted numbers how inefficient your studs have been against our defenders. We have 3 guys who are arguably top 3, if not definitely top 5 at their respective positions defensively.

Also your mentioning how CP3 is a defensive extraordinaire, then can you explain why Deron has been more efficient offensively than CP3 in their h2h battles?

Not to mention Battier only played because he was the hot hand at that time, like we said in our write up and were still waiting for a reply, can you answer how you expect Battier to get a significant amount of minutes, when he couldn't even get that on a stacked team that thrived of spacing? Heck he wasn't even asked to do anything defensively rather than stay there because anytime he got attacked defensively in the finals, he got beat pretty easily. He's not the same guy anymore and he's definitely not worrying us.

You also mention how Horford leaves a hole around the paint, which position on your roster has a rebounding advantage, to scare us on the boards to make that a significant mismatch issue?

Also this mock is based on the following year, Caron Butler is still without a team, but yet he's expected to get significant burn on your squad, what does that tell you about his diminishing skill set?

Ebbs
08-27-2013, 05:23 PM
I'll come back read write ups and arguments later today.

Both teams deserve it before I vote.

Killerjug
08-27-2013, 05:33 PM
Also while Melo had good post up numbers last year, in our write up we said we will be using Horford on a lot of pick and rolls and Kawhi Leonard on Cuts.

"However, he struggled to stay with his man on isolation plays or when forced to run around screens, and his poor help defense left the Knicks vulnerable at times along the back line."

Carmelo Anthony - .87PPP overall ranking 195th, .86PPP on Isos ranking 234th, 1.02 PPP on spot up defense ranking 240th, (-1.7 RAPM)

So other than Post up D he is a liability on that end of the floor, and not only that whoever is guarding him Battier or Melo, we are going to have a massive rebounding advantage

Eagles4Lyfe
08-27-2013, 05:42 PM
The Knicks depth chart doesn't even go hand in hand with their write up.
Talk about sloppy.

Butler getting 20 minutes? Hansbrough 20 minutes and Kenyon 24 minutes?
So these guys are going to be guarding Horford and Duncan for a good amount of minutes?

Also the Knicks make such a big deal about Kawhi having to defending a PF. But Melo is only listed at PF for 20 minutes and the rest at SF :laugh:...

Not to mention no scoring, no shooting or above average defense of the bench.

KnicksorBust
08-27-2013, 05:46 PM
I'll handle this piece by piece so there is no confusion.


A 250 pound center thats versatile. It's not like he's some chunky guy who has no athleticism at all. Your also banking on your guys getting into the paint a lot.

The point is Horford is important for you and you are allowing me to simply run Battier baseline to baseline exhausting Horford and taking him out of the place where he is actually valuable on defense. The paint!


We've posted numbers how inefficient your studs have been against our defenders. We have 3 guys who are arguably top 3, if not definitely top 5 at their respective positions defensively.

None of this is even true. Thabo doesn't guard CP3, Westbrook does. So throw out all those fake numbers. Then you have Deron guarding JR Smith who has him crushed with speed and athleticism. Meanwhile Thabo, who did guard JR Smith this year, got LIT UP in both matchups. JR went off for 36 points and 22 points in the OKC-Knicks matchups this year. Thabo countered with a 2 point performance and an 8 point performance. Duncan and Chandler played to a virtual wash this season. Chandler averaged 11.5ppg/12rpg on 58% shooting and Duncan averaged 12.5ppg/10rpg on 56%. Meanwhile Carmelo is averaging 20ppg on H2H vs. Leonard in their 3 limited appearances. He had a huge game of 27, a bad game of 9, and a strong game of 23 points. Hardly enough to claim this inefficiency.


Also your mentioning how CP3 is a defensive extraordinaire, then can you explain why Deron has been more efficient offensively than CP3 in their h2h battles?

Sure that's true if you want to count their matchups from 2008. Typically I think it's only relevant to compare the last 3 years since that is far more representative of how the players currently play. Wouldn't you agree? We discussed how CP3 has dominated him in the matches over the last 2-3 years in our writeup.


Not to mention Battier only played because he was the hot hand at that time, like we said in our write up and were still waiting for a reply, can you answer how you expect Battier to get a significant amount of minutes, when he couldn't even get that on a stacked team that thrived of spacing? Heck he wasn't even asked to do anything defensively rather than stay there because anytime he got attacked defensively in the finals, he got beat pretty easily. He's not the same guy anymore and he's definitely not worrying us.

That's fine. Underrate him. He just swung an NBA Finals. We have a funny feeling he won't get caught up in the moment in the 2nd round.


You also mention how Horford leaves a hole around the paint, which position on your roster has a rebounding advantage, to scare us on the boards to make that a significant mismatch issue?

Well I'd like to point out that Tyson Chandler's tip-out rebounds were off the charts this season. But even ignoring that, do you really only think offensive rebounding is your only concern? CP3-JR-Melo are all ball handlers who can get to rim and penetrate. If there is nobody there to protect the basket we will get easy layups. The more easy baskets we can get in this series the easier it will be to advance to the next round.


Also this mock is based on the following year, Caron Butler is still without a team, but yet he's expected to get significant burn on your squad, what does that tell you about his diminishing skill set?

Caron Butler basically DOUBLED Landry Fields production: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=butleca01&y1=2013&p2=fieldla01&y2=2013

Butler can still contribute and hit 39% from 3pt last season while starting for the Clippers. I wouldn't attack our bench when Landry Fields is your ONLY backup wing at the 2 and 3 spots. :)

KnicksorBust
08-27-2013, 06:05 PM
Grabbing another beer while I wait for Chi's next response. :laugh:

KnicksorBust
08-27-2013, 06:32 PM
233 views and 3 votes?

TrueFan420
08-27-2013, 06:54 PM
Got the bulls think their size kills the Knicks

Bruno
08-27-2013, 06:59 PM
233 views and 3 votes?

nobody knows what to do, it's too close.

KnicksorBust
08-27-2013, 07:02 PM
nobody knows what to do, it's too close.

In a matchup that is too close to call. What would decide it? Talent and ability to close out tight games. This, maybe more than anything, is the Knicks advantage in this series. We don't just have the best player in this matchup, we have the two best players. Chris Paul and Carmelo Anthony. Both of which are FAR more valuable at the end of games than anyone on the Bulls roster. Especially their playmaker Deron Williams who shot 27% in clutch situations last season.

Bruno
08-27-2013, 07:03 PM
Got the bulls think their size kills the Knicks

is their size and HCA enough to slow down Chris Paul/Melo with ample help? Chandler can match up with either Bull big, this one is really tough.

tredigs
08-27-2013, 07:03 PM
It is pretty close, both teams are nice. But the Bulls seem better to me. Just so well balanced on both ends. Tough to find a hole, but they do lack a little firepower.

Bruno
08-27-2013, 07:05 PM
In a matchup that is too close to call. What would decide it? Talent and ability to close out tight games. This, maybe more than anything, is the Knicks advantage in this series. We don't just have the best player in this matchup, we have the two best players. Chris Paul and Carmelo Anthony. Both of which are FAR more valuable at the end of games than anyone on the Bulls roster. Especially their playmaker Deron Williams who shot 27% in clutch situations last season.

Paul would dominate Williams here. Melo could be potentially be somewhat contained by Leonard but it would be especially hard with Paul give him looks; but I don't think so. Melo goes off at better efficiency with Paul. What worries me for the Knicks is the size of the Leonard/Horford/Duncan front court (although the bulls are playing Duncan too many minutes a game here) and Chicago HCA.

I'm leaning towards a vote for NYK, I'll vote at the end of the day.

tough one, great teams.

Killerjug
08-27-2013, 07:07 PM
Williams isn't guarding Paul much though we have a superior defender in thabo on him a lot

tredigs
08-27-2013, 07:09 PM
Paul would dominate Williams here. Melo could be potentially be somewhat contained by Leonard but it would be especially hard with Paul give him looks; but I don't think so. Melo goes off at better efficiency with Paul. What worries me for the Knicks is the size of the Leonard/Horford/Duncan front court (although the bulls are playing Duncan too many minutes a game here) and Chicago HCA.

I'm leaning towards a vote for NYK, I'll vote at the end of the day.

tough one, great teams.

With Deron looking back to near his peak form, I find it hard to believe Cp3 is doing any dominating. He never used to in the past, that's for sure. It's closer to a wash than most would think.

I agree though, very good teams. Tough one. I'd pay to see it. And frankly I like them both more than Miami in this comp.

TrueFan420
08-27-2013, 07:13 PM
is their size and HCA enough to slow down Chris Paul/Melo with ample help? Chandler can match up with either Bull big, this one is really tough.

He can only match up with one. Not both. I just think the bulls have a great balance and that the Knicks should have went with melo at sf more than at pf. Also that JR is overrated. This series comes down to if Paul can take everyone to the next level on the road. I don't think he does enough to beat the bulls.

Bruno
08-27-2013, 07:14 PM
With Deron looking back to near his peak form, I find it hard to believe Cp3 is doing any dominating. He never used to in the past, that's for sure. It's closer to a wash than most would think.

I agree though, very good teams. Tough one. I'd pay to see it. And frankly I like them both more than Miami in this comp.

deron williams doesn't produce at the same level as chris paul. paul destroys williams in advanced line. williams isn't slowing down paul at all. williams will have a good series and he'll be productive but there is a big gap in what these two guys can do. with my last comment, put more emphasis on what they will produce for their teams, and less on "their matchup". lazy choice of words on my point.

Bruno
08-27-2013, 07:17 PM
He can only match up with one. Not both. I just think the bulls have a great balance and that the Knicks should have went with melo at sf more than at pf. Also that JR is overrated. This series comes down to if Paul can take everyone to the next level on the road. I don't think he does enough to beat the bulls.

assuming Chandler guards Duncan and attempts to neutralize him, is Horford enough of an offensive power house to dominant the post for Chicago? ...he could be...

Bruno
08-27-2013, 07:17 PM
Williams isn't guarding Paul much though we have a superior defender in thabo on him a lot

sorry, matchup was the wrong word.

TrueFan420
08-27-2013, 07:19 PM
assuming Chandler guards Duncan and attempts to neutralize him, is Horford enough of an offensive power house to dominant the post for Chicago? ...he could be...

With melo trying to guard him in the post yes he can be enough but as good as chandler is he won't stop Duncan he will still get his. He always steps up in the playoffs too.

tredigs
08-27-2013, 07:26 PM
deron williams doesn't produce at the same level as chris paul. paul destroys williams in advanced line. williams isn't slowing down paul at all. williams will have a good series and he'll be productive but there is a big gap in what these two guys can do. with my last comment, put more emphasis on what they will produce for their teams, and less on "their matchup". lazy choice of words on my point.

Deron fairs very well against Cp3 when he's going strong, which he is right now. That 2nd half was impressive. Historically he has been better in their h2h's.

Bruno
08-27-2013, 07:41 PM
Deron fairs very well against Cp3 when he's going strong, which he is right now. That 2nd half was impressive. Historically he has been better in their h2h's.
that second half includes the post-season where he displayed a drop off in statistical production, and a first round exit against Chicago who weren't a top five defensive team this year. the nets also had HCA.

Deron williams is a good player but he's not on Pauls level. Paul led the post season in PER. He has an impact on the game that Deron Williams doesn't.

it was said that they aren't guarding each other in this series, right?

Bruno
08-27-2013, 07:55 PM
With melo trying to guard him in the post yes he can be enough but as good as chandler is he won't stop Duncan he will still get his. He always steps up in the playoffs too.

Duncan is great and possibly the second best player in this series, but Chandler is also a DPOY level caliber player. he wouldn't shut down duncan but he could slow him down. Horford would have to play big.

Raps18-19 Champ
08-27-2013, 07:59 PM
If the Bulls had eagles do the writeup I definitely would have voted for them for sure.

Can you even understand it?

KnicksorBust
08-27-2013, 08:03 PM
He can only match up with one. Not both. I just think the bulls have a great balance and that the Knicks should have went with melo at sf more than at pf. Also that JR is overrated. This series comes down to if Paul can take everyone to the next level on the road. I don't think he does enough to beat the bulls.

Who better than CP3 to do it? I saw somebody post about my roster previously that LeBron and CP3 are the only two players in the league that can make Melo unstoppable. I couldn't agree more.

mightybosstone
08-27-2013, 08:04 PM
Not so shocking the Knicks left out a defensive game plan on how to defend our team because they are well aware of how atrocious their defense would be.

That's idiotic. We took a top 10 defense from last season with a former DPOY and added two plus defenders in our starting five with Paul and Battier. How is our defense atrocious? Get out of here with that weak ****.

KnicksorBust
08-27-2013, 08:04 PM
Can you even understand it?

Can you please remind people how bad Landry Fields was for the Raptors?

mightybosstone
08-27-2013, 08:06 PM
Deron fairs very well against Cp3 when he's going strong, which he is right now. That 2nd half was impressive. Historically he has been better in their h2h's.

Historically? Yes. But this is a "what have you done lately" sport. Look at our write-up where we examine the last four head-to-head matchups since 2011. Paul has COMPLETELY dominated those games in every statistical category. It's not close.

KnicksorBust
08-27-2013, 08:07 PM
assuming Chandler guards Duncan and attempts to neutralize him, is Horford enough of an offensive power house to dominant the post for Chicago? ...he could be...

He's a mid-teens scorer and has always been a mid teens scorer. Plus he'll be guarded by Melo who was elite guarding the post and Psycho T who was the EIGHTH BEST guarding the post this season. He allowed opposing centers a PER of 9.3! His defense was phenomenal last season and he would get the remaining time on Horford when Melo slides to SF. With Chandler-Kenyon Martin-Hansbrough we have plenty of interior defense. I don't buy that as enough of an advantage to make up for our offensive firepower and the mismatches that the Bulls are INTENTIONALLY creating by putting their PG on our 6'6 SG and a 250lb C on our SF.

mightybosstone
08-27-2013, 08:13 PM
The Knicks depth chart doesn't even go hand in hand with their write up.
Talk about sloppy.

Butler getting 20 minutes? Hansbrough 20 minutes and Kenyon 24 minutes?
So these guys are going to be guarding Horford and Duncan for a good amount of minutes?
Did you even read our write-up? We mentioned quality depth as a major key as to why we win this series. Our depth completely destroys your depth. When Melo and Chandler are on the bench, we have defensive guys like Hansbrough and Kenyon Martin off the bench to defend Horford and Duncan. Who do you have? Aaron freaking Gray and Brandon Bass, one of the worst rebounding bigs in the league. And that's not even bringing up how horrible offensively your bench is. When your starters are sitting, we'll have a massive advantage.


Also the Knicks make such a big deal about Kawhi having to defending a PF. But Melo is only listed at PF for 20 minutes and the rest at SF :laugh:...

Not to mention no scoring, no shooting or above average defense of the bench.
"Only" for 20 minutes? That's over half of his playing time. And we split Melo's time to give Hansbrough more minutes for defensive purposes on Horford. A Chandler/Hansbrough/Martin frontcourt trio could give Duncan and Horford some serious problems in this series. People keep bringing up our lack of size, but that's total nonsense. That frontcourt trio is as strong on the glass and as solid defensively as most teams in this game.

KnicksorBust
08-27-2013, 08:18 PM
Bruno is smart.

mightybosstone
08-27-2013, 08:19 PM
Bruno is smart.

Indeed. We may be losing, but we're clearly winning in voter quality.

Killerjug
08-27-2013, 08:19 PM
Did you even read our write-up? We mentioned quality depth as a major key as to why we win this series. Our depth completely destroys your depth. When Melo and Chandler are on the bench, we have defensive guys like Hansbrough and Kenyon Martin off the bench to defend Horford and Duncan. Who do you have? Aaron freaking Gray and Brandon Bass, one of the worst rebounding bigs in the league. And that's not even bringing up how horrible offensively your bench is. When your starters are sitting, we'll have a massive advantage.


"Only" for 20 minutes? That's over half of his playing time. And we split Melo's time to give Hansbrough more minutes for defensive purposes on Horford. A Chandler/Hansbrough/Martin frontcourt trio could give Duncan and Horford some serious problems in this series. People keep bringing up our lack of size, but that's total nonsense. That frontcourt trio is as strong on the glass and as solid defensively as most teams in this game.

Pretty Hypocritical as Aaron Gray isn't seeing much if any playing time as our writeup says so and Brandon Bass has proven that he can slow down Carmelo Anthony so don't really see where your going with that one.

Bruno
08-27-2013, 08:25 PM
Bruno is smart.

right before clicking NYK/vote I texted three trusted buddies a picture of the matchup. all of them responded knicks right away. confirmed my gut feelings. with Duncan matching up against a DPOY caliber center, I think Melo becomes the second most impactful player in this series. for me meaning that the Knicks got the two highest impact player in the series. its tough to vote against the two highest impact guys when they're on the same team.

mightybosstone
08-27-2013, 08:28 PM
Pretty Hypocritical as Aaron Gray isn't seeing much if any playing time as our writeup says so and Brandon Bass has proven that he can slow down Carmelo Anthony so don't really see where your going with that one.

And when will Brandon Bass be guarding Melo if Melo is only playing 20 minutes at PF? That doesn't make a ton of sense.

mightybosstone
08-27-2013, 08:29 PM
right before clicking NYK/vote I texted three trusted buddies a picture of the matchup. all of them responded knicks right away. confirmed my gut feelings. with Duncan matching up against a DPOY caliber center, I think Melo becomes the second most impactful player in this series. for me meaning that the Knicks got the two highest impact player in the series. its tough to vote against the two highest impact guys when they're on the same team.

Solid logic, sir. And might I add that you have terrific taste in friends.

Bruno
08-27-2013, 08:30 PM
Solid logic, sir. And might I add that you have terrific taste in friends.

:laugh2:

their response was surprising to me because two of them are the biggest Kwiah Leonard homers on the planet, and neither are even spurs fans (although we all rooted against Miami collectively).

Killerjug
08-27-2013, 08:31 PM
And when will Brandon Bass be guarding Melo if Melo is only playing 20 minutes at PF? That doesn't make a ton of sense.

If it's not Bass then it will be Leonard which is fine with us, just because he's starting at PF doesn't mean he's going to play 20 minutes at PF then 18 at SF. The point is one of Leonard or Bass will be on Melo at all times who we both feel will slow him down

Bruno
08-27-2013, 08:33 PM
and sorry chicago- you guys have a great team too. had to go with my gut.

good luck everybody.

Killerjug
08-27-2013, 08:34 PM
don't have to be sorry lol always appreciate the votes 2 good teams here obviously disagree with you but appreciate the reasoning :)

KnicksorBust
08-27-2013, 08:40 PM
right before clicking NYK/vote I texted three trusted buddies a picture of the matchup. all of them responded knicks right away. confirmed my gut feelings. with Duncan matching up against a DPOY caliber center, I think Melo becomes the second most impactful player in this series. for me meaning that the Knicks got the two highest impact player in the series. its tough to vote against the two highest impact guys when they're on the same team.

If only these guys had PSD accounts. :laugh: Your logic is spot-on. In a close series having the two most impactful players is huge. To be honest, I think the part of this matchup that is hurting us is that people underestimate that players like Melo-Chandler-JR would all drastically improve playing with Chris Paul instead of Felton. He's just so good.

Eagles4Lyfe
08-27-2013, 08:44 PM
That's idiotic. We took a top 10 defense from last season with a former DPOY and added two plus defenders in our starting five with Paul and Battier. How is our defense atrocious? Get out of here with that weak ****.
LMAO a top 10 defense that lost their best defender. Are you forgetting Iman Shumpert, your best perimeter defender?
Your making CP3 who you also want to have a big part offensively being your top premier defender, are you also aware of the health problems CP3 has also?

Historically? Yes. But this is a "what have you done lately" sport. Look at our write-up where we examine the last four head-to-head matchups since 2011. Paul has COMPLETELY dominated those games in every statistical category. It's not close.
A CP3 that had wayyy more talent, but once Deron got talent this year, his efficiency was wayyyy better than even Melos.


Bruno is smart.
Not as smart as all the people who voted Bulls, because they have a fresh mind and read everything well..

With Deron looking back to near his peak form, I find it hard to believe Cp3 is doing any dominating. He never used to in the past, that's for sure. It's closer to a wash than most would think.

I agree though, very good teams. Tough one. I'd pay to see it. And frankly I like them both more than Miami in this comp.

Don't let em sway you because they are feeding you utter BS.

You've been a big proponent on defending Kawhi's defense in the SF thread, plus your well aware of how inefficient he made Lebron James in the finals. Your probably also aware that Kawhi in the finals averaged about 11 boards against a team that had Wade, Lebron, Bosh, so imagine with a team below average rebounding wise.

You also know that Thabo is near the top at his position defensively and were putting him to slow down Paul. Your aware Paul hasn't been that dominant guy that carried the Hornets single handedly. We haven't seen that CP3 the last 2 playoffs with a more talented roster. Not to mention look at his 3% shooting this past year, so how can he play of the ball with Melo when EVERYONE knows how much Melo needs the ball.

Not to mention if Chandler is such a premier like defender, why did KG, Hibby and West have really solid showings in the playoffs against their team. Not to mention this same Tyson Chandler didn't even average 10 boards in the playoffs. So again HOW ARE THEY REBOUNDING?

Remember playoffs are a different animal.
Duncan and Kawhi's game took another step these past playoffs and remember Duncan and co take it easy during the regular season and rest a lot so there numbers won't be as sexy as you would expect.
But come playoffs, they beasted and its been proven.

It's also proven Melo was extremely inefficient these past playoffs.
Follow your heart bro vote for the bulls like you want to, its the right thing to do.

Bruno
08-27-2013, 08:44 PM
If only these guys had PSD accounts. :laugh: Your logic is spot-on. In a close series having the two most impactful players is huge. To be honest, I think the part of this matchup that is hurting us is that people underestimate that players like Melo-Chandler-JR would all drastically improve playing with Chris Paul instead of Felton. He's just so good.

ive tried, they prefer reddit.

imagine battier in the corner off perfect passes from paul too. boom.

what made me question my decision is the leonard-horford-duncan front line; potentially suffocating. just a really nice front line man; thabo as a great defender too. but i think Paul/Melo with a nice supporting cast is just too much.

i also don't consider williams to be a top five PG so it makes my decision a bit easier than those who consider him to be the guy behind Paul (although there's been less of that since 2009ish).

Bruno
08-27-2013, 08:47 PM
If only these guys had PSD accounts. :laugh: Your logic is spot-on. In a close series having the two most impactful players is huge. To be honest, I think the part of this matchup that is hurting us is that people underestimate that players like Melo-Chandler-JR would all drastically improve playing with Chris Paul instead of Felton. He's just so good.
and yeah- these bulls would probably finish with a better regular season record, but in a seven game series its about fire power and elite player dominance.

Killerjug
08-27-2013, 08:51 PM
and yeah- these bulls would probably finish with a better regular season record, but in a seven game series its about fire power and elite player dominance.

I disagree with that look at what the Grizzlies, Pacers, and even the Spurs to an extent did this year

Eagles4Lyfe
08-27-2013, 08:54 PM
That's idiotic. We took a top 10 defense from last season with a former DPOY and added two plus defenders in our starting five with Paul and Battier. How is our defense atrocious? Get out of here with that weak ****.

You want to know what's weak. You have a guy without a team next year playing 24 minutes.

You keep harping on Battier being a solid defender when he's not, read our write up its all outlined in the first line basically. All your defenders aside from Chandler and CP3 to an extent suck.
They cant defend spot up shooters or Iso well. Refer to the Melo defensive stat that KJ posted a couple pages back.

You want to know what else is weak, Hansbrough played 12 minutes in the playoffs for the Pacers and is only a hustle guy you have him playing 20 minutes for your roster. This same Hansbrough shot 41% from the field and adds nothing defensively.

Speaking of weak, who is providing scoring of your bench should CP3, Melo or Smitty are in foul trouble? Or heck who's providing a spark PERIOD of your bench?

Also stop picking and choosing the arguments and defend everything we posted about your team. You guys are conveniently ignoring a lot of key facts, and a lot of people are noticing this which is why were in the lead.
We've defended pretty much everything you've thrown at us, while you guys have picked and chose your spots.




And when will Brandon Bass be guarding Melo if Melo is only playing 20 minutes at PF? That doesn't make a ton of sense.
Why the hell does it matter where the hell you guys put Melo as a position :laugh:.
I don't know why you keep bringing this up, its irrelevant. Line CP3 up at center, that doesn't mean Duncan is guarding him.

Bass can come in for Horford and guard Melo, while being considered our "PF".....While Kawhi can defend someone else or take a rest or something.

It's not a big issue

Everything favors us in this series

Eagles4Lyfe
08-27-2013, 08:57 PM
ive tried, they prefer reddit.

imagine battier in the corner off perfect passes from paul too. boom.

what made me question my decision is the leonard-horford-duncan front line; potentially suffocating. just a really nice front line man; thabo as a great defender too. but i think Paul/Melo with a nice supporting cast is just too much.

i also don't consider williams to be a top five PG so it makes my decision a bit easier than those who consider him to be the guy behind Paul (although there's been less of that since 2009ish).

Their supporting cast is far from nice man, what a joke.
They literally have players that are past their prime in Butler and Battier, guys who don't even get consistent minutes on other teams and Chandler who struggled these past playoffs a bit. He had to cover up for Melo's defensive deficiencies a lot this year and it showed in his numbers.


and yeah- these bulls would probably finish with a better regular season record, but in a seven game series its about fire power and elite player dominance.

Tell that to the Spurs team that made the finals. Or the Pacers team who almost took our the champions.

Bruno
08-27-2013, 09:02 PM
I disagree with that look at what the Grizzlies, Pacers, and even the Spurs to an extent did this year

well, the Pacers and Spurs were fantastic, but they still lost against dominant firepower (and I'd argue that Miami didn't have the top two players in the finals). but I mean you could site other examples of top heavy dominance losing in recent memory; like the 2003 and 2004 Lakers. Its not a law of science or anything, everyone once in a while a Detroit pistons will come along and mix it up, but generally the team with the top two guys or teams with two of the three best players in a series usually win.

grizzlies punked the clippers but not due to any fault of chris pauls.

Bruno
08-27-2013, 09:03 PM
Tell that to the Spurs team that made the finals. Or the Pacers team who almost took our the champions.

I never said they weren't competitive. they were great teams who were extremely competitive.

but both those teams lost, which is an example of what I was alluding to.

Bruno
08-27-2013, 09:06 PM
Their supporting cast is far from nice man, what a joke.


i wouldn't take it that far. JR smith just won 6th man of the year and Chandler is proven anchor/champion.

Lucky.
08-27-2013, 09:07 PM
Did you even read our write-up? We mentioned quality depth as a major key as to why we win this series. Our depth completely destroys your depth. When Melo and Chandler are on the bench, we have defensive guys like Hansbrough and Kenyon Martin off the bench to defend Horford and Duncan. Who do you have? Aaron freaking Gray and Brandon Bass, one of the worst rebounding bigs in the league. And that's not even bringing up how horrible offensively your bench is. When your starters are sitting, we'll have a massive advantage.

Did you read our write-up? Aaron Gray is expected to see no playing time, while Fields is only playing 15 minutes. Your argument for quality depth is ridiculous, as depth helps, it does not win playoff series and more often than not teams in the playoffs have 8 man rotations, 9 tops. And to act like your bench is far more superior is just not true. We have 3 key bench players, while you have 4. And we arguably have the two best bench players in this series in J.J. Barea and Brandon Bass. Landry Fields lost his 3pt shot, but we still feel as if he can give us solid minutes. It's not like we're relying heavily on him, as he's only playing 15 minutes. Caron Butler was terrible last year, and to think otherwise is absurd. He can shoot, I'll give you that. Oh, and although he started in the playoffs, he had a negative WS/48. J.J. Barea and D.J. Augustin are similar players, but I'll take Barea over Augustin's 35% any day. If you want to claim Augustin just came off a solid playoffs (in which he still shot under 40%), then I can say Barea has proven himself in the playoffs as seen in 2011.

Bruno
08-27-2013, 09:08 PM
you know what would be awesome? creating both of these teams in 2k then simulating the match up in a best of seven like 500 times. if a computer could do that, that would be cool.

Eagles4Lyfe
08-27-2013, 09:09 PM
well, the Pacers and Spurs were fantastic, but they still lost against dominant firepower (and I'd argue that Miami didn't have the top two players in the finals). but I mean you could site other examples of top heavy dominance losing in recent memory; like the 2003 and 2004 Lakers. Its not a law of science or anything, everyone once in a while a Detroit pistons will come along and mix it up, but generally the team with the top two guys or teams with two of the three best players in a series usually win.

grizzlies punked the clippers but not due to any fault of chris pauls.

They lost against a team that actually had really good role players surrounding their top 3 of Bosh, Lebron and Wade.
Miller, Chalmers, Ray Allen, Birdman (who actually brought defense in his limited times and can argue changed the tide of the game towards the Heats favor at times).
Are you insinuating that Hansbrough, Butler, Martin or Augustin can have this same kinda impact?
This isn't even factoring in that the big 2 of the Knicks come close to the Heats big 3 because they don't.

Silent
08-27-2013, 09:09 PM
Voted for the wrong team meant to vote for the bulls

Eagles4Lyfe
08-27-2013, 09:11 PM
i wouldn't take it that far. JR smith just won 6th man of the year and Chandler is proven anchor/champion.

Who's game took a hit in the playoffs, so why did this happen??

Jr Smith won 6th man, awesome, why the hell is he starting then?
Why did JR Smith also flail in the playoffs?

Your severely underrating the dynamics of the playoffs, we have guys who are more capable of taking their game to another level that your not giving credit to, even though 3 of them just proved it these past playoffs.

Eagles4Lyfe
08-27-2013, 09:12 PM
Voted for the wrong team meant to vote for the bulls

Will do so its 9-1.

Bruno
08-27-2013, 09:13 PM
They lost against a team that actually had really good role players surrounding their top 3 of Bosh, Lebron and Wade.
Miller, Chalmers, Ray Allen, Birdman (who actually brought defense in his limited times and can argue changed the tide of the game towards the Heats favor at times).
Are you insinuating that Hansbrough, Butler, Martin or Augustin can have this same kinda impact?
This isn't even factoring in that the big 2 of the Knicks come close to the Heats big 3 because they don't.

no, but Wade wasn't wade and that might make up for the difference. he produced post-season numbers that were worthy of a boardline all-star. not sure if Miami last year was the best example of top heavy dominance, considering the quality of their bench as you mentioned, and marginalized incarnations of Bosh and Wade.

Killerjug
08-27-2013, 09:14 PM
you know what would be awesome? creating both of these teams in 2k then simulating the match up in a best of seven like 500 times. if a computer could do that, that would be cool.


Can you change Silents vote before this gets too far along as there is bound to be several more pages of arguing

Bruno
08-27-2013, 09:15 PM
Will do so its 9-1.

yeah, i dont know why you're so mad at me, you're running away with the poll :laugh2:

Bruno
08-27-2013, 09:15 PM
Can you change Silents vote before this gets too far along as there is bound to be several more pages of arguing

im not sure, a navy supermod would know better.

Bruno
08-27-2013, 09:16 PM
Who's game took a hit in the playoffs, so why did this happen??

Jr Smith won 6th man, awesome, why the hell is he starting then?
Why did JR Smith also flail in the playoffs?

Your severely underrating the dynamics of the playoffs, we have guys who are more capable of taking their game to another level that your not giving credit to, even though 3 of them just proved it these past playoffs.

common.

you've built a great team.

Eagles4Lyfe
08-27-2013, 09:17 PM
no, but Wade wasn't wade and that might make up for the difference. his produced post-season numbers that were worthy of a boardline all-star. not sure if Miami last year was the best example of top heavy dominance, considering the quality of their bench as you mentioned, and marginalized incarnations of Bosh and Wade.

Wade wasn't Wade, but your not recognizing Melo wasn't his efficient regular season self in the playoffs.
Did you see how extremely inefficient he was? I posted it a couple pages back.

His game took a hit
Tysons took a hit
Jr's took a hit
CP3 was just above average these past playoffs
Battier didn't even get consistent minutes


Duncan was a key cog for the Spurs
Kawhi was a key cog and who's game took it to another level these past playoffs
Deron's numbers these past playoffs, were just plain dirty, his shooting was awesome.


Not to mention Barea, who helped the Mavs that year they won the title, is a more than capable 6th man providing an offensive spark if need be.
Brandon Bass who's proven to be a really solid player on the Celtics ever since he's joined them.

Our players stocks are really high while their players stocks are really low, but yet you voted for em.

Eagles4Lyfe
08-27-2013, 09:19 PM
yeah, i dont know why you're so mad at me, you're running away with the poll :laugh2:

lol I'm not like MBT, I don't rag on the voters, I'm just trying to see if you'd change your mind because I wasn't on when your were teetering towards the Knicks.
I'm here for debates, thats part of the fun in building these teams.

Thanks for taking part in the poll though and explaining your vote.
But this thing is far from done man lol.

KnicksorBust
08-27-2013, 09:29 PM
That's idiotic. We took a top 10 defense from last season with a former DPOY and added two plus defenders in our starting five with Paul and Battier. How is our defense atrocious? Get out of here with that weak ****.

You want to know what's weak. You have a guy without a team next year playing 24 minutes.

You keep harping on Battier being a solid defender when he's not, read our write up its all outlined in the first line basically. All your defenders aside from Chandler and CP3 to an extent suck.
They cant defend spot up shooters or Iso well. Refer to the Melo defensive stat that KJ posted a couple pages back.

You want to know what else is weak, Hansbrough played 12 minutes in the playoffs for the Pacers and is only a hustle guy you have him playing 20 minutes for your roster. This same Hansbrough shot 41% from the field and adds nothing defensively.

Speaking of weak, who is providing scoring of your bench should CP3, Melo or Smitty are in foul trouble? Or heck who's providing a spark PERIOD of your bench?

Also stop picking and choosing the arguments and defend everything we posted about your team. You guys are conveniently ignoring a lot of key facts, and a lot of people are noticing this which is why were in the lead.
We've defended pretty much everything you've thrown at us, while you guys have picked and chose your spots.




And when will Brandon Bass be guarding Melo if Melo is only playing 20 minutes at PF? That doesn't make a ton of sense.
Why the hell does it matter where the hell you guys put Melo as a position :laugh:.
I don't know why you keep bringing this up, its irrelevant. Line CP3 up at center, that doesn't mean Duncan is guarding him.

Bass can come in for Horford and guard Melo, while being considered our "PF".....While Kawhi can defend someone else or take a rest or something.

It's not a big issue

Everything favors us in this series

You call out my co when you ducked an entire post where I countered like 7 of your arguments. You play 40% of your lineup out of position and would get burned.

Eagles4Lyfe
08-27-2013, 09:33 PM
You call out my co when you ducked an entire post where I countered like 7 of your arguments. You play 40% of your lineup out of position and would get burned.

I didn't duck it, I didn't have enough time to respond to it, but if you want me to explain to you why a Caron Butlers production should be higher than Landry Fields then I gladly will. Fields isn't going to kill us because we don't need anything from him offensively, just his solid defense for spare minutes.
You guys are heavily counting on Battier and Butler, that's the big difference.

Plus I got tired arguing with people who ignore like 70% of the posts and pick the only ones they can have some sorta explanation for.


I'm starting to have my doubts about you understanding positioning now.
Defensively were matching guys up to get the best out of our guys. Your acting like were listing Deron at center or Kawhi at PG or something.

I don't understand why you guys keep making such a big fuss about this positioning stuff.
Just because Thabo our SG is guarding your PG, doesn't mean offensively he's going to be playing PG :laugh:..

Come on your better then that

KnicksorBust
08-27-2013, 10:22 PM
You call out my co when you ducked an entire post where I countered like 7 of your arguments. You play 40% of your lineup out of position and would get burned.

I didn't duck it, I didn't have enough time to respond to it, but if you want me to explain to you why a Caron Butlers production should be higher than Landry Fields then I gladly will. Fields isn't going to kill us because we don't need anything from him offensively, just his solid defense for spare minutes.
You guys are heavily counting on Battier and Butler, that's the big difference.

Plus I got tired arguing with people who ignore like 70% of the posts and pick the only ones they can have some sorta explanation for.


I'm starting to have my doubts about you understanding positioning now.
Defensively were matching guys up to get the best out of our guys. Your acting like were listing Deron at center or Kawhi at PG or something.

I don't understand why you guys keep making such a big fuss about this positioning stuff.
Just because Thabo our SG is guarding your PG, doesn't mean offensively he's going to be playing PG :laugh:..

Come on your better then that

Relying heavily on our 5th and 7th options? That doesnt even make sense.

:laugh: I quoted your entire post and broke down each of your arguments. There is nothing you can throw at us that worries me. I am still waiting for you to tell me how Deron will guard 6'6 SG JR Smith who torched ur bot Thabo during the reg season. Or how you plan on protecting the key with both your bigs pulled 20ft from the basket.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
08-27-2013, 10:28 PM
Indeed. We may be losing, but we're clearly winning in voter quality.

This is the most MBT thing I've ever read.

TrueFan420
08-27-2013, 10:28 PM
Duncan is great and possibly the second best player in this series, but Chandler is also a DPOY level caliber player. he wouldn't shut down duncan but he could slow him down. Horford would have to play big.

So is Marc Gasol but Duncan did fine against him and gasol is better man v man in the post than chandler. Chandler is a better help defender tho. Either way I see Duncan still putting up solid numbers. Horford would need to play well but who guards him in the post? Melo can't and chandler leaves to help then duncans open and Horford is a soild passer for a big.

Ebbs
08-27-2013, 10:31 PM
Surprised its becoming a blow out.

Eagles4Lyfe
08-27-2013, 10:32 PM
So is Marc Gasol but Duncan did fine against him and gasol is better man v man in the post than chandler. Chandler is a better help defender tho. Either way I see Duncan still putting up solid numbers. Horford would need to play well but who guards him in the post? Melo can't and chandler leaves to help then duncans open and Horford is a soild passer for a big.

Bingo..
You watch a lot of Knicks game ehh cause I noticed the same thing.
Melo's man getting by him and Tyson getting put into no mans land.

Eagles4Lyfe
08-27-2013, 10:36 PM
Surprised its becoming a blow out.

People see the rebounding problems they'd have to go along with the defensive problems and offensive inefficiency.
It's not a tool for success you can get away with playing a really balanced team like us.

TrueFan420
08-27-2013, 10:37 PM
Who better than CP3 to do it? I saw somebody post about my roster previously that LeBron and CP3 are the only two players in the league that can make Melo unstoppable. I couldn't agree more.

He might be able too. But melo is kinda of a black whole. Whether its cause he has to handle the load on offense or that's just him i don't know, people still debate that about AI. People said Nash could do it for Kobe and while both are old we saw how that worked out. Don't get me wrong i really like your team but I think you made a mistake having melo start at the pf. He should play less minutes at the pf than sf.

TrueFan420
08-27-2013, 10:45 PM
Bingo..
You watch a lot of Knicks game ehh cause I noticed the same thing.
Melo's man getting by him and Tyson getting put into no mans land.

A combination of watching him with Knicks but also with Dallas at his peak. He's best at help. For the Knicks to win the need Paul to raise everyone's game and melo to be a melo he's never been. The bulls have great balance and the only question mark is if we see Williams from the past and flashes of last year or the bad one. Difference is championship or bust.

Lucky.
08-27-2013, 10:53 PM
Relying heavily on our 5th and 7th options? That doesnt even make sense.

:laugh: I quoted your entire post and broke down each of your arguments. There is nothing you can throw at us that worries me. I am still waiting for you to tell me how Deron will guard 6'6 SG JR Smith who torched ur bot Thabo during the reg season.

We made it clear in our write-up that we feel as if J.R. Smith cannot be counted on as a reliable option and that having him start favors us. Deron won't be the only one on him, either. We'll be throwing multiple players at everyone. J.R. specifically will see Deron, Sefolosha and at times will see Landry Fields on him. And to your argument about Sefolosha, it's two games. Quite the sample size there.


Or how you plan on protecting the key with both your bigs pulled 20ft from the basket.

We never once said Tim Duncan would consistently see time out on the perimeter, if ever. We realize he'll have to at times during the PnR, but it's not as if Duncan can't adjust, or Horford will constantly be out on on the perimeter. And even if, as good of players Anthony and Paul are, you act as if it's going to be easy getting around Sefolosha and Leonard. Yes, Horford will be out to guard Battier's shot but Battier is only playing 25 minutes, meaning you won't have your consistent floor spacing at the 4. As for when Anthony is at the 4 while Battier is taking a rest, this is where Bass comes into play. Our versatility to guard you is a big part of our gameplan.

Sadds The Gr8
08-27-2013, 11:00 PM
not voting because this could affect my matchup. but in a nutshell, I think Chicago would crush them inside. They have a more balanced offense, and better defense.

PatsSoxKnicks
08-27-2013, 11:01 PM
Eagles, CP3 was above average in the playoffs? WHAT THE **** ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? haha. Dude had the highest PER in the playoffs, his WS/48 was .267, he had a TS% of 63.3%, an ORtg of 132. Oh and he also had a 80% TS% in the clutch while using 70% of his teams' possessions in the clutch in the playoffs. Yeah 80% TS%/70%USG in the clutch in the playoffs. If that is above average, well then every player in the league sucks.

Eagles4Lyfe
08-27-2013, 11:04 PM
not voting because this could affect my matchup. but in a nutshell, I think Chicago would crush them inside. They have a more balanced offense, and better defense.
:facepalm:
Are you saying your shook?
Just vote man the more GM's the better

Eagles, CP3 was above average in the playoffs? WHAT THE **** ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? haha. Dude had the highest PER in the playoffs, his WS/48 was .267, he had a TS% of 63.3%, an ORtg of 132. Oh and he also had a 80% TS% in the clutch while using 70% of his teams' possessions in the clutch in the playoffs. Yeah 80% TS%/70%USG in the clutch in the playoffs. If that is above average, well then every player in the league sucks.

I was comparing his production to the rest of the Knicks roster not in general. The other guys had average to below average outings, and CP3 was the only one with an above average showing.

PatsSoxKnicks
08-27-2013, 11:05 PM
I was comparing his production to the rest of the Knicks roster not in general. The other guys had average to below average outings, and CP3 was the only one with an above average showing.

Above average. You seriously think CP3 was above average with those numbers? Cmon, you're better then that. I realize you can't "praise" CP3 but saying he's above average in last year's playoffs is an insult to yourself lol.

Eagles4Lyfe
08-27-2013, 11:07 PM
Above average. You seriously think CP3 was above average with those numbers? Cmon, you're better then that. I realize you can't "praise" CP3 but saying he's above average in last year's playoffs is an insult to yourself lol.

OMG, I just explained what I was referring to when I said it.
I was stating merely the fact that on the whole knicks roster, he was the only one that had a good playoff showing.

If your going to post that, then post Melo's lack of efficiency in the playoffs to go with Smith's and Chandlers bad showing.

KnicksorBust
08-27-2013, 11:11 PM
So is Marc Gasol but Duncan did fine against him and gasol is better man v man in the post than chandler. Chandler is a better help defender tho. Either way I see Duncan still putting up solid numbers. Horford would need to play well but who guards him in the post? Melo can't and chandler leaves to help then duncans open and Horford is a soild passer for a big.

Melo is strong and held opposing bigs to a pitiful 35% shooting in the post. He was ranked 16th in the entire NBA. You know whose not good at defending the post? Kawhi Leonard who ranked 239th in the NBA and will spend the entire game guarding Carmelo Anthony who won the scoring title while putting up a highly efficient 56%TS% this season. That's the real post mismatch.

roshan3ai
08-27-2013, 11:15 PM
The Knicks match up better. Leonard is great, long defender on most Small Forwards, but he's just not strong enough to guard Melo down low. The guys that succeed against him are the Dengs of the world who have the strength in the post to contain him. We saw LeBron destroy Kawhi in the post in the Finals, and in the post Melo has more moves and a greater volume of shots. And honestly who's covering that paint when Horford is out guarding three point shooters? I feel like that's a recipe for disaster. His rebounding edge is not utilized if he's 20 feet away from the hoop when the shot goes up.

Chris Paul is in another tier at PG. I don't care about their 2007 matchups and when the Thunder play the Clippers, he's guarded by Westbrook. Those stats are trash.

I also don't get how the Bulls bash Butler when they are playing Landry Fields any minutes at all. He's beyond terrible.

I think Melo guarding Horford hurts the Knicks though. That's their biggest mismatch. Tyson has proven that he can do an adequate job versus Duncan in past matchups. Tyson lost like 10 pounds after being sick this year and was clearly not 100% this postseason. But the game considers every player healthy, and a healthy Tyson in the playoffs isn't far off from the better C's in the game.

In the end, I know this series is going down to the wire. Each team has its advantages and disadvantages. The Bulls have size and rebounding. The Knicks have the spacing and Melo mismatch. And when these games go to the wire, I look at the closers on each team. And the Knicks have the two best players and closers in this series.

That's why I chose them. Wasn't easy. Call me a homer. But I think they win this series.

Eagles4Lyfe
08-27-2013, 11:21 PM
Melo is strong and held opposing bigs to a pitiful 35% shooting in the post. He was ranked 16th in the entire NBA. You know whose not good at defending the post? Kawhi Leonard who ranked 239th in the NBA and will spend the entire game guarding Carmelo Anthony who won the scoring title while putting up a highly efficient 56%TS% this season. That's the real post mismatch.

Oh ya during the season.
What about Melo's 49% TS% on 38% USG% in the playoffs???Are we going to ignore that. Also are we going to ignore that Bass played a big part in those numbers to?

Are you also saying, Melo is going to consistently post Kawhi up? Good luck with that notion then, because if Lebron James couldn't even dominate Kawhi in the post like you say, why would Carmelo Anthony be able to? It also kills part of your offensive game plan if your going to do that.

mightybosstone
08-27-2013, 11:22 PM
LMAO a top 10 defense that lost their best defender. Are you forgetting Iman Shumpert, your best perimeter defender?
lol.... Did you just call Iman Shumpert a better defender than Tyson Chandler? If you truly believe that, I'm not really sure how to respond to you, because I'm not sure you know a thing about the players we're discussing.


Your making CP3 who you also want to have a big part offensively being your top premier defender, are you also aware of the health problems CP3 has also?
You're not giving nearly enough credit to Battier, and you're definitely not giving enough credit to Chandler. If you think our defense is bad, you should watch more basketball games.


A CP3 that had wayyy more talent, but once Deron got talent this year, his efficiency was wayyyy better than even Melos.
Sample size, bro. A good player can play great for a short period of time, but Deron is not in Melo or Paul's ballpark, and trying to argue otherwise is a poor place start an argument.


You've been a big proponent on defending Kawhi's defense in the SF thread, plus your well aware of how inefficient he made Lebron James in the finals. Your probably also aware that Kawhi in the finals averaged about 11 boards against a team that had Wade, Lebron, Bosh, so imagine with a team below average rebounding wise.
How is our team "below averaging rebounding-wise"? Chandler is one of the best rebounders in the league and Anthony's 10.8% TRB% isn't that bad for a guy who plays half his minutes at SF. Consider that with guys like Martin and Hansbrough off our bench, and we completely fail to see how rebounding will be a problem.


You also know that Thabo is near the top at his position defensively and were putting him to slow down Paul. Your aware Paul hasn't been that dominant guy that carried the Hornets single handedly. We haven't seen that CP3 the last 2 playoffs with a more talented roster. Not to mention look at his 3% shooting this past year, so how can he play of the ball with Melo when EVERYONE knows how much Melo needs the ball.
First off, playing Thabo on Paul and leaving D-Will to guard Smith is a mistake. Smith will run Williams ragged and pick him apart. As for Melo playing off the ball, Melo was assisted on 46% of his jumpers last season, a much higher number than Wade (32%) and Lebron (37%). If Wade and Lebron can coexist and win titles, Melo and Paul certainly can as well.


Not to mention if Chandler is such a premier like defender, why did KG, Hibby and West have really solid showings in the playoffs against their team. Not to mention this same Tyson Chandler didn't even average 10 boards in the playoffs. So again HOW ARE THEY REBOUNDING?
Chandler was hurt, for one, but I guess we're just glossing over facts to make our arguments now. Also, yet again, you need to understand something called "sample size". Chandler playing bad in one series does not constitute him being a bad player. Also, claiming KG was "solid" in that Knicks series is nonsense that you're pulling out of your ***. The dude posted the lowest playoff PER in his career, the second lowest WS/48 of his last 6 postseason and the lowest scoring in a postseason in his career. Perhaps you should redefine the word "solid" for the sake of that argument.


Duncan and Kawhi's game took another step these past playoffs and remember Duncan and co take it easy during the regular season and rest a lot so there numbers won't be as sexy as you would expect. But come playoffs, they beasted and its been proven.
You know who else takes his game to another level in the postseason? The same guy who is 6th in career postseason PER and 18th in career postseason WS/48: Chris Paul. Melo is also 45th in career PER. The difference is that those guys are still in their primes and Duncan is clearly at the tail end of his career.


It's also proven Melo was extremely inefficient these past playoffs. Follow your heart bro vote for the bulls like you want to, its the right thing to do.
Inefficient? Perhaps. But he still had some monster games in the postseason, and he kept New York in a series against a superior Indiana team. Hell, the guy was the leading scorer for either team in 10 of the Knicks 12 posteason games, so let's not pretend like Melo disappeared in the playoffs when he was the reason New York was competitive in the first place. Add in someone like Chris Paul to take the pressure off of him and Melo would be a beast in the postseason.


You want to know what's weak. You have a guy without a team next year playing 24 minutes.
Who are you talking about? All of our contributors have teams next season, bro.


You keep harping on Battier being a solid defender when he's not, read our write up its all outlined in the first line basically. All your defenders aside from Chandler and CP3 to an extent suck. They cant defend spot up shooters or Iso well. Refer to the Melo defensive stat that KJ posted a couple pages back.
Agree to disagree on Battier. And to completely eliminate Chandler's defensive impact when the guy had a HUGE impact on the team's D when he came to New York and is a year removed from a DPOY award is completely ignorant.


You want to know what else is weak, Hansbrough played 12 minutes in the playoffs for the Pacers and is only a hustle guy you have him playing 20 minutes for your roster. This same Hansbrough shot 41% from the field and adds nothing defensively.
Hansbrough played the 7th most minutes on an Indiana team which came one win away from playing in the NBA Finals and he played behind a stacked front court. Also, your ignorance continues to shine through as you rip players defensively who are far better than you're giving them credit for. Opposing 4s averaged a 13.1 PER against him last season and opposing 5s averaged only a 9.3 PER against him. The guy hustles like crazy and sticks to his man about as well as any bench big in the league.


Speaking of weak, who is providing scoring of your bench should CP3, Melo or Smitty are in foul trouble? Or heck who's providing a spark PERIOD of your bench?
I'd trust Augustin, Butler, Battier and Hansbrough a hell of a lot more than I'd trust Barea, Fields, Bass and Gray. Fields is an abomination and him getting 15 minutes is an absolute joke.


Also stop picking and choosing the arguments and defend everything we posted about your team. You guys are conveniently ignoring a lot of key facts, and a lot of people are noticing this which is why were in the lead. We've defended pretty much everything you've thrown at us, while you guys have picked and chose your spots.
Dude, I'm arguing all the points that are getting made in the thread. Every point I've made in this thread has been a direct answer to something I've read. If I've missed something, it's because I haven't had the time tonight to go through 6 pages of posts and respond to every single point made.


Why the hell does it matter where the hell you guys put Melo as a position.
Lol.... Do you even watch basketball?


Everything favors us in this series
That's arrogant, stupid and downright insulting. If you believe this, you're either delusional or have no clue what you're saying.

mightybosstone
08-27-2013, 11:25 PM
What about Melo's 49% TS% on 38% USG% in the playoffs???Are we going to ignore that. Also are we going to ignore that Bass played a big part in those numbers to?

Are you also saying, Melo is going to consistently post Kawhi up? Good luck with that notion then, because if Lebron James couldn't even dominate Kawhi in the post like you say, why would Carmelo Anthony be able to? It also kills part of your offensive game plan if your going to do that.

I don't know. Are you going to continue to ignore Paul's monster, historic numbers in the postseason or the fact that Melo kept the Knicks in the playoffs in games they had no business winning? You can easily chalk up a high USG% and low TS% to a player who is taking on too much of the offensive load. No way would he post a USG% that high or efficiency that low on the same roster as Chris Paul. You'd have to be insane to think otherwise.

KnicksorBust
08-27-2013, 11:28 PM
Eagles, CP3 was above average in the playoffs? WHAT THE **** ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? haha. Dude had the highest PER in the playoffs, his WS/48 was .267, he had a TS% of 63.3%, an ORtg of 132. Oh and he also had a 80% TS% in the clutch while using 70% of his teams' possessions in the clutch in the playoffs. Yeah 80% TS%/70%USG in the clutch in the playoffs. If that is above average, well then every player in the league sucks.

Seriously. Paul is by far the most clutch player in this series. Anyone who knows the game knows that. He and Melo give the Knicks two go-to players at the end of games. The votes will get closer and my advantage in tight games is critical. Do you really trust the up and down Deron Williams to win this series for Chi? If he has an off-game (which having CP3 on him he definitely will have some) they have nobody to run the offense or take pressure off of him. That's a huge liability in the playoffs.

roshan3ai
08-27-2013, 11:29 PM
Melo's postseason inefficiency is unbelievably overblown. If you watched, you know he was literally force fed the ball. No playmaking PG. JR was off his game. JKidd scored like -3 points in the entire playoffs. Melo had to do it all himself because nobody else could even get a relatively good shot up. Watch the damn games.

That problem is literally poofed with the best PG in the game. Someone try to explain to me how the offense will be stagnant and Melo won't get open looks on this team. If you think that Melo is taking the shots he had to in the playoffs on a team with CP3, then hats off to you. But you're wrong.

mightybosstone
08-27-2013, 11:32 PM
Melo's postseason inefficiency is unbelievably overblown. If you watched, you know he was literally force fed the ball. No playmaking PG. JR was off his game. JKidd scored like -3 points in the entire playoffs. Melo had to do it all himself because nobody else could even get a relatively good shot up. Watch the damn games.

That problem is literally poofed with the best PG in the game. Someone try to explain to me how the offense will be stagnant and Melo won't get open looks on this team. If you think that Melo is taking the shots he had to in the playoffs on a team with CP3, then hats off to you. But you're wrong.

This guy gets it. I always knew I liked Rosh for some reason.

PatsSoxKnicks
08-27-2013, 11:35 PM
OMG, I just explained what I was referring to when I said it.
I was stating merely the fact that on the whole knicks roster, he was the only one that had a good playoff showing.

If your going to post that, then post Melo's lack of efficiency in the playoffs to go with Smith's and Chandlers bad showing.

I know you what you were referring to, I'm just saying it's a bit insulting to CP3 to say he was above average when he might've been at least one of the top 5 playoff performers based on what he did (his team not advancing wasn't really his fault).

As for Melo, I think using his playoff numbers are unfair to him when he CLEARLY would benefit from playing with a player like Chris Paul. And I mean, looking at his clutch numbers as an example, Melo used 60% of his teams' possessions in the clutch while Paul used 70%. You think thats actually possible to have both those guys use that many possessions in the clutch? That adds up to over 100% so I'd say no, in which case, someone is going to be shooting less and therefore should see an increase in efficiency. You saying Melo sucked in the playoffs is ignoring any context and the fact that he used a league leading 38% of his teams' possessions in the playoffs. That's ridiculous. And of course, when every other Knicks player who can do anything is sucking shooting wise as well (JR 43% TS%, Felton 49% TS%), naturally Melo is going to take a ton of shots and have a lower efficiency. Heck, even Amare in his limited minutes had a poor TS%.

You assuming that CP3 wouldn't help Melo at all is just stupid.

KnicksorBust
08-27-2013, 11:35 PM
Eagles, CP3 was above average in the playoffs? WHAT THE **** ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? haha. Dude had the highest PER in the playoffs, his WS/48 was .267, he had a TS% of 63.3%, an ORtg of 132. Oh and he also had a 80% TS% in the clutch while using 70% of his teams' possessions in the clutch in the playoffs. Yeah 80% TS%/70%USG in the clutch in the playoffs. If that is above average, well then every player in the league sucks.

Thank you.


Above average. You seriously think CP3 was above average with those numbers? Cmon, you're better then that. I realize you can't "praise" CP3 but saying he's above average in last year's playoffs is an insult to yourself lol.

Yup.


Oh ya during the season.
What about Melo's 49% TS% on 38% USG% in the playoffs???Are we going to ignore that. Also are we going to ignore that Bass played a big part in those numbers to?

Are you also saying, Melo is going to consistently post Kawhi up? Good luck with that notion then, because if Lebron James couldn't even dominate Kawhi in the post like you say, why would Carmelo Anthony be able to? It also kills part of your offensive game plan if your going to do that.

Did you even watch the finals?


The Knicks match up better. Leonard is great, long defender on most Small Forwards, but he's just not strong enough to guard Melo down low. The guys that succeed against him are the Dengs of the world who have the strength in the post to contain him. We saw LeBron destroy Kawhi in the post in the Finals, and in the post Melo has more moves and a greater volume of shots. And honestly who's covering that paint when Horford is out guarding three point shooters? I feel like that's a recipe for disaster. His rebounding edge is not utilized if he's 20 feet away from the hoop when the shot goes up.

Chris Paul is in another tier at PG. I don't care about their 2007 matchups and when the Thunder play the Clippers, he's guarded by Westbrook. Those stats are trash.

I also don't get how the Bulls bash Butler when they are playing Landry Fields any minutes at all. He's beyond terrible.

I think Melo guarding Horford hurts the Knicks though. That's their biggest mismatch. Tyson has proven that he can do an adequate job versus Duncan in past matchups. Tyson lost like 10 pounds after being sick this year and was clearly not 100% this postseason. But the game considers every player healthy, and a healthy Tyson in the playoffs isn't far off from the better C's in the game.

In the end, I know this series is going down to the wire. Each team has its advantages and disadvantages. The Bulls have size and rebounding. The Knicks have the spacing and Melo mismatch. And when these games go to the wire, I look at the closers on each team. And the Knicks have the two best players and closers in this series.

That's why I chose them. Wasn't easy. Call me a homer. But I think they win this series.

Spot-on.

roshan3ai
08-27-2013, 11:37 PM
This guy gets it. I always knew I liked Rosh for some reason.

Same. That guy's awesome. #Pelicans4Lyfe

Killerjug
08-27-2013, 11:38 PM
I don't know. Are you going to continue to ignore Paul's monster, historic numbers in the postseason or the fact that Melo kept the Knicks in the playoffs in games they had no business winning? You can easily chalk up a high USG% and low TS% to a player who is taking on too much of the offensive load. No way would he post a USG% that high or efficiency that low on the same roster as Chris Paul. You'd have to be insane to think otherwise.

So what just magically changed from the regular season to post season. You were boasting his .560% TS earlier in the regular season when his usage hardly jumped from 35.6 to 38%.

mightybosstone
08-27-2013, 11:53 PM
So what just magically changed from the regular season to post season. You were boasting his .560% TS earlier in the regular season when his usage hardly jumped from 35.6 to 38%.

His teammates weren't stepping up and other guys weren't hitting shots. The guy was taking bad shots because he had to. When you're the only viable option offensively for your team, it's pretty hard to play efficient basketball.

Eagles4Lyfe
08-27-2013, 11:53 PM
lol.... Did you just call Iman Shumpert a better defender than Tyson Chandler? If you truly believe that, I'm not really sure how to respond to you, because I'm not sure you know a thing about the players we're discussing.
No you kept saying you took a top 10 defensive team and added CP3, but fail to mention the part where you also lost Shumperts defense.
From Knicks fans themselves, they said Shumpert would guard the PG, SG and SF position, so who's replacing that? Battier and Butler definitely aren't.



You're not giving nearly enough credit to Battier, and you're definitely not giving enough credit to Chandler. If you think our defense is bad, you should watch more basketball games.
Ya I should watch basketball games, typical response by you.
You guys want to state statistical facts, then when we do its watch more basketball games. Good one and so original.



Sample size, bro. A good player can play great for a short period of time, but Deron is not in Melo or Paul's ballpark, and trying to argue otherwise is a poor place start an argument.
Oh so now you want to argue sample size. Want to reassess this statement because I can go back and quote your a couple of your Co's posts and use this same logic.


How is our team "below averaging rebounding-wise"? Chandler is one of the best rebounders in the league and Anthony's 10.8% TRB% isn't that bad for a guy who plays half his minutes at SF. Consider that with guys like Martin and Hansbrough off our bench, and we completely fail to see how rebounding will be a problem.
You clearly didn't read our write ups, which is your biggest issue.
Anthony averages 6.7 boards per 36, do you know how bad that is from the PF spot, especially if Chandler gets taken away from the paint.

You guys like saying how Duncan is going to be taken out away from the paint, what about when we do the same to Chandler? Who is going to fight Horford and Kawhi for boards, Battier and Melo? lol ooookay


First off, playing Thabo on Paul and leaving D-Will to guard Smith is a mistake. Smith will run Williams ragged and pick him apart. As for Melo playing off the ball, Melo was assisted on 46% of his jumpers last season, a much higher number than Wade (32%) and Lebron (37%). If Wade and Lebron can coexist and win titles, Melo and Paul certainly can as well.
We've addressed this Deron on Smith thing a hundred times already. You guys continue going in circles with this argument.
Also you telling me to watch basketball, perhaps you should do the same. Unlike Wade or Lebron, Melo gets the ball passed to him and shoots it right away a lot, so of course he'd get assisted on a lot of his shots. Wade and Lebron get the ball and penetrate and dish a lot or reset a lot. That stat tells nothing

Lebron and Wade also had a Chris Bosh to score in the post and a better supporting cast then you guys. It's not even close you comparing your squad to them. Nowhere close



Chandler was hurt, for one, but I guess we're just glossing over facts to make our arguments now. Also, yet again, you need to understand something called "sample size". Chandler playing bad in one series does not constitute him being a bad player. Also, claiming KG was "solid" in that Knicks series is nonsense that you're pulling out of your ***. The dude posted the lowest playoff PER in his career, the second lowest WS/48 of his last 6 postseason and the lowest scoring in a postseason in his career. Perhaps you should redefine the word "solid" for the sake of that argument.

One series, the WHOLE playoffs he averaged less than 10 boards per game. He averaged like 7 these past playoffs. If he does that against us, who is picking up the slack?

You guys want to harp on Chandlers good defense, you do know that Duncan is a better defender right? So are you guys going to downplay his defense down low?


You know who else takes his game to another level in the postseason? The same guy who is 6th in career postseason PER and 18th in career postseason WS/48: Chris Paul. Melo is also 45th in career PER. The difference is that those guys are still in their primes and Duncan is clearly at the tail end of his career.
When has Carmelo ever picked up the slack in the playoffs? He's known as a borderline loser in the playoffs. As for Paul, there's no denying that. He's a great player, and above average was a poor choice of words. He's better than that, and to simply pin that on me over a lack of a better word is a bit insulting. With that said, we have Tim Duncan who has always risen to the occasion, Kawhi Leonard who clearly took his game to the next level these past playoffs competing with the best and being a key part of the Spurs finals push.

Melo or CP3 as main options have made how many finals?


Inefficient? Perhaps. But he still had some monster games in the postseason, and he kept New York in a series against a superior Indiana team. Hell, the guy was the leading scorer for either team in 10 of the Knicks 12 posteason games, so let's not pretend like Melo disappeared in the playoffs when he was the reason New York was competitive in the first place. Add in someone like Chris Paul to take the pressure off of him and Melo would be a beast in the postseason.
Well of course, Melo is the Knicks main option on offense, I would assume he'd be leading the team in scoring, isn't saying much there bud.
Like we stated CP3 shot 32% behind the arc last year and worse in the playoffs, so how is he going to play of the ball?



Agree to disagree on Battier. And to completely eliminate Chandler's defensive impact when the guy had a HUGE impact on the team's D when he came to New York and is a year removed from a DPOY award is completely ignorant.
No one is eliminating Chandlers defensive impact. But he has to many weak defenders surrounding him, he can't overcome everyone's deficiencies.

You guys are also choosing to eliminate Duncans defensive impact, so it goes both ways.


Hansbrough played the 7th most minutes on an Indiana team which came one win away from playing in the NBA Finals and he played behind a stacked front court. Also, your ignorance continues to shine through as you rip players defensively who are far better than you're giving them credit for. Opposing 4s averaged a 13.1 PER against him last season and opposing 5s averaged only a 9.3 PER against him. The guy hustles like crazy and sticks to his man about as well as any bench big in the league.
Like I said all he is, is a hustle guy. Anyone can take any stat and pin it on a player to make em look good. OFC when a bench player is guarding a bench big his numbers will look good.
Then riddle me this, why was his offensive production bad and rebounding numbers not so swell?


I'd trust Augustin, Butler, Battier and Hansbrough a hell of a lot more than I'd trust Barea, Fields, Bass and Gray. Fields is an abomination and him getting 15 minutes is an absolute joke.
So a guy who shot 37% a guy with negative win shares a guy who could hardly crack the Heat rotation and a guy who shot 40% and averaged 4 points a game are better options than a guy who's defended one of your star players solidly in these past playoffs, a proven 6th man who was a key spark plug of the bench for the Mavs in the finals and another solid defender.

Makes total sense


Dude, I'm arguing all the points that are getting made in the thread. Every point I've made in this thread has been a direct answer to something I've read. If I've missed something, it's because I haven't had the time tonight to go through 6 pages of posts and respond to every single point made.
You guys have conveniently ignored some of KJ's and Luckys posts. I wonder why


Lol.... Do you even watch basketball?
Yup but I've gotten from your posts you clearly don't.


That's arrogant, stupid and downright insulting. If you believe this, you're either delusional or have no clue what you're saying
No its not arrogant, its confidence and I do have a clue in what I'm saying.
Look at the score hommie, then get back to me

Eagles4Lyfe
08-27-2013, 11:56 PM
His teammates weren't stepping up and other guys weren't hitting shots. The guy was taking bad shots because he had to. When you're the only viable option offensively for your team, it's pretty hard to play efficient basketball.

You mean teammates such as Jr Smith and Tyson Chandler not stepping up?

Eagles4Lyfe
08-27-2013, 11:58 PM
I know you what you were referring to, I'm just saying it's a bit insulting to CP3 to say he was above average when he might've been at least one of the top 5 playoff performers based on what he did (his team not advancing wasn't really his fault).

As for Melo, I think using his playoff numbers are unfair to him when he CLEARLY would benefit from playing with a player like Chris Paul. And I mean, looking at his clutch numbers as an example, Melo used 60% of his teams' possessions in the clutch while Paul used 70%. You think thats actually possible to have both those guys use that many possessions in the clutch? That adds up to over 100% so I'd say no, in which case, someone is going to be shooting less and therefore should see an increase in efficiency. You saying Melo sucked in the playoffs is ignoring any context and the fact that he used a league leading 38% of his teams' possessions in the playoffs. That's ridiculous. And of course, when every other Knicks player who can do anything is sucking shooting wise as well (JR 43% TS%, Felton 49% TS%), naturally Melo is going to take a ton of shots and have a lower efficiency. Heck, even Amare in his limited minutes had a poor TS%.

You assuming that CP3 wouldn't help Melo at all is just stupid.

I never said CP3 wouldn't help Melo at all, but way to put words in my mouth.
I just don't think they have the supporting cast needed to beat our team.

N just to make you feel better so you can sleep better. CP3 has an awesome playoffs, happy?

PatsSoxKnicks
08-28-2013, 12:05 AM
I'd like to see the Bulls answer how they plan on defending CP3 in the clutch though. Because they are focusing on Carmelo's bad numbers in the playoffs but have yet to answer how they'd defend CP3 in the clutch. And yes I'm curious because my mind is simply boggled at the fact that someone can average an 80% TS% while using 70% of his teams' possessions in the clutch. How the F is that possible?

Here's the link btw: http://stats.nba.com/leaguePlayerClutch.html?sortField=USG_PCT&sortOrder=DES&SeasonType=Playoffs&MeasureType=Advanced&PerMode=PerGame&filters=MIN*G*1

PatsSoxKnicks
08-28-2013, 12:08 AM
I never said CP3 wouldn't help Melo at all, but way to put words in my mouth.
I just don't think they have the supporting cast needed to beat our team.

N just to make you feel better so you can sleep better. CP3 has an awesome playoffs, happy?

Well, you seem to be focusing a ton on Carmelo's bad playoff numbers so it seems like you are. As for the supporting case, that's a valid point. Then again, CP3 is just such a high impact player that he's going to naturally make everyone around him better. And I'm not one of those who thinks that Carmelo can't play on a team with another star because I think he absolutely can.

Yup.

PatsSoxKnicks
08-28-2013, 12:10 AM
BTW, this matchup has been great so far. Tons of debate :clap:

Sadly, I will wait a bit longer before I cast my vote. Still torn.

Killerjug
08-28-2013, 12:13 AM
I'd like to see the Bulls answer how they plan on defending CP3 in the clutch though. Because they are focusing on Carmelo's bad numbers in the playoffs but have yet to answer how they'd defend CP3 in the clutch. And yes I'm curious because my mind is simply boggled at the fact that someone can average an 80% TS% while using 70% of his teams' possessions in the clutch. How the F is that possible?

Here's the link btw: http://stats.nba.com/leaguePlayerClutch.html?sortField=USG_PCT&sortOrder=DES&SeasonType=Playoffs&MeasureType=Advanced&PerMode=PerGame&filters=MIN*G*1

this is more being curious than making a statement because I'm not sure. It's a pretty small sample size of only 2 games at 2.1 minutes. Al Horford had a 90.2% TS in the clutch and I'm not trying to compare them because I know CP3 is the better player but the sample size seems small? Again just curious as I know you know more than I

Lucky.
08-28-2013, 12:23 AM
I'd like to see the Bulls answer how they plan on defending CP3 in the clutch though. Because they are focusing on Carmelo's bad numbers in the playoffs but have yet to answer how they'd defend CP3 in the clutch. And yes I'm curious because my mind is simply boggled at the fact that someone can average an 80% TS% while using 70% of his teams' possessions in the clutch. How the F is that possible?

Here's the link btw: http://stats.nba.com/leaguePlayerClutch.html?sortField=USG_PCT&sortOrder=DES&SeasonType=Playoffs&MeasureType=Advanced&PerMode=PerGame&filters=MIN*G*1

As KJ said, although impressive, it's a two game sample size. I believe that's that second argument in favor of the Knicks that's been a two game sample size. Everyone knows how good a player Paul is, or how "clutch" he is, so pointing out a two game sample size is rather pointless.

mightybosstone
08-28-2013, 12:36 AM
No you kept saying you took a top 10 defensive team and added CP3, but fail to mention the part where you also lost Shumperts defense. From Knicks fans themselves, they said Shumpert would guard the PG, SG and SF position, so who's replacing that? Battier and Butler definitely aren't.
Lol.... Because they don't need to. Paul can guard opposing PGs extremely well and we have no worries that Battier will be able to match up with opposing wings offensively.


Ya I should watch basketball games, typical response by you. You guys want to state statistical facts, then when we do its watch more basketball games. Good one and so original.
Stop saying dumb **** and I'll stop saying it. ;)


Oh so now you want to argue sample size. Want to reassess this statement because I can go back and quote your a couple of your Co's posts and use this same logic.
Like what exactly?


You clearly didn't read our write ups, which is your biggest issue. Anthony averages 6.7 boards per 36, do you know how bad that is from the PF spot, especially if Chandler gets taken away from the paint.
The Knicks last season weren't a great rebounding team either, but their -1.0 rebound differential was only just below average, they were still an extremely competitive team and they didn't have Hansbrough getting minutes behind Melo. You're completely overlooking Hansbrough's impact on the glass, a guy who averaged 9.8 boards per 36 minutes and posted a very respectable 15.2 TRB% last season.


You guys like saying how Duncan is going to be taken out away from the paint, what about when we do the same to Chandler? Who is going to fight Horford and Kawhi for boards, Battier and Melo? lol ooookay
You keep acting like Melo is a terrible rebounder, which couldn't be further from the truth. His 10.8 TRB% last season is exceptionally high for a SF. Is it low for a PF? Yeah, but not obscenely low. It's nearly identical to Brandon Bass (11.2 last season), the same guy you claim will be matching up with Melo fairly often. And if your big plan is to constantly sit Duncan 15 feet from the basket, we'll take that. Duncan's mid-range jumper is dangerous, but I'll give up a 15-footer over Duncan within 6-8 feet of the basket any day of the week.


We've addressed this Deron on Smith thing a hundred times already. You guys continue going in circles with this argument.
That doesn't make it not still a bad idea. :shrug:


Also you telling me to watch basketball, perhaps you should do the same. Unlike Wade or Lebron, Melo gets the ball passed to him and shoots it right away a lot, so of course he'd get assisted on a lot of his shots. Wade and Lebron get the ball and penetrate and dish a lot or reset a lot. That stat tells nothing
lol.... I completely fail to see what your point is. You tell me that Melo can't score without the ball in his hands and then OPENLY ADMIT that he takes set jumpers all the time. So based on your own assessment, it sounds like Melo would work great next to a dominant playmaker like Paul. Thanks for making my point for me.


Lebron and Wade also had a Chris Bosh to score in the post and a better supporting cast then you guys. It's not even close you comparing your squad to them. Nowhere close
You claim you watch basketball and then claim Bosh scores a lot in the low post. You clearly did not watch much of the playoffs last season.


You guys want to harp on Chandlers good defense, you do know that Duncan is a better defender right? So are you guys going to downplay his defense down low?
Is he? And I never once downplayed his defensive impact, but he's also not going to be matched up against one of our two deadliest offensive players. If Melo or Paul gets by their man and Duncan switches to help, he'll leave one of the most efficient big men in the history of the NBA open around the rim. Be my guest, dude. I'd welcome it.


When has Carmelo ever picked up the slack in the playoffs? He's known as a borderline loser in the playoffs. As for Paul, there's no denying that. He's a great player, and above average was a poor choice of words. He's better than that, and to simply pin that on me over a lack of a better word is a bit insulting. With that said, we have Tim Duncan who has always risen to the occasion, Kawhi Leonard who clearly took his game to the next level these past playoffs competing with the best and being a key part of the Spurs finals push.
He picked up the slack in last season's playoffs. We've been over that already. Also, let's not forget his dominant performance with Denver in 2008-2009 when he carried an inferior Nuggets team to six games in the conference finals against the Lakers, posting monster numbers the entire postseason.

And don't get me started on Leondard "taking the next step" in the playoffs. He averages 14/9 in one postseason and all of a sudden he's a budding superstar. I'll admit he was the best player at times in that Finals series, but you're talking about an extremely small sample size. And it's not like he was blowing up for 20 points every night. The guy is a very solid No. 4 or a mediocre No. 3, but don't go crazy.


Melo or CP3 as main options have made how many finals?
The same number as Deron Williams and Al Horford. And Battier has played in how many straight NBA Finals? That's a ****** argument either way you look at it.


Well of course, Melo is the Knicks main option on offense, I would assume he'd be leading the team in scoring, isn't saying much there bud.
Leading BOTH teams in scoring. Read better.


Like we stated CP3 shot 32% behind the arc last year and worse in the playoffs, so how is he going to play of the ball?
Because he's Chris ****ing Paul. Just because the guy had an off year shooting beyond the arc does not make him any less dangerous. Give him space and he score from anywhere on the floor or blow past his man to the rim.


No one is eliminating Chandlers defensive impact. But he has to many weak defenders surrounding him, he can't overcome everyone's deficiencies.
That's ********. This team is no worse defensively than last year's Knicks which finished 7th in team defense a year ago. And before you start spewing nonsense about Iman Shumpert, let's not forget that the guy barely played half the season and he played only 22 minutes a game. If you think Shumpert was the reason their defense was solid last year, you shouldn't be arguing basketball, you should be focusing on coloring inside the lines.


So a guy who shot 37% a guy with negative win shares a guy who could hardly crack the Heat rotation and a guy who shot 40% and averaged 4 points a game are better options than a guy who's defended one of your star players solidly in these past playoffs, a proven 6th man who was a key spark plug of the bench for the Mavs in the finals and another solid defender.
Who on our bench had negative win shares? I swear I think you're just posting random stats without looking anything whatsoever. And where are you getting your information on Battier? The guy played 25 minutes a game for the back-to-back champions. He played the 6th most minutes on the team in the regular season and 7th most minutes on the team in the postseason. That hardly sounds like a guy who "barely" cracked a rotation. If you're going to make up facts, at least have something to back them up.

Also, I don't care how well Bass defended Melo in the playoffs. He's your best bench player and that's easily one of the worst offensive AND defensive benches I've ever seen. Barea is not a legit point guard, Landry Fields is a big pile of **** and Aaron Gray played a whopping 12 minutes per game for the lowly Raptors.


You guys have conveniently ignored some of KJ's and Luckys posts. I wonder why
I haven't conveniently ignored anything. I came in here after work and responded to the first few posts I saw, then had dinner with the girlfriend, came back on and argued some of the more recent posts. I'm not going to go through 7 pages of this and respond to every single comment.


No its not arrogant, its confidence and I do have a clue in what I'm saying.
Look at the score hommie, then get back to me
It's not confidence. It's ignorance. And the score doesn't mean anything. Just because you're winning doesn't mean the points you're making are valid. It also doesn't mean your team is necessarily better. I'd trust a few decent minds from these games over the PSD masses any day of the week.

mightybosstone
08-28-2013, 12:42 AM
You mean teammates such as Jr Smith and Tyson Chandler not stepping up?
Yeah. Guys who would also benefit from having a playmaker like Paul running their offense. It's hard


I never said CP3 wouldn't help Melo at all, but way to put words in my mouth. I just don't think they have the supporting cast needed to beat our team.
And your supporting cast is so great? You easily have one of the worst benches in this game, and outside of your starting five, that 8-man rotation looks like the thing my cat puked up on the carpet this afternoon. But your bench is far thinner than my cat's vomit.


N just to make you feel better so you can sleep better. CP3 has an awesome playoffs, happy?
Well at least you're willing to admit you were wrong about one thing. It's a start.

Shammyguy3
08-28-2013, 12:56 AM
To me, the Bulls' defense is the greatest defense in this game without question... It's ridiculous. And when you factor in that the Bulls' starting lineup are all great in terms of efficiency... like I've stated previously, this Bulls team is the most well-rounded team in this game.

The Bulls will have great ball-movement in this series, and they will absolutely demolish on the boards. I can see the Bulls outrebounding the Knicks by double digits every game. And when you get out-rebounded that much, that puts more pressure to maintain crazy efficiency on the offensive end. And against this Chicago defense, that would just not happen. The mismatch of Melo at the 4 isn't a mismatch to me at all because Melo would have to be guarding Horford on the other end.

The Bulls don't have an all-time high usage scorer like Melo, but they don't need to because of the three-man game that Williams/Horford/Duncan will display on pick & rolls. As a Bulls fan myself, I see how effective a Rose/Boozer/Noah trio is on offense when one of Boozer/JoNo sets a pick for Derrick. And this Bulls trio here in this game, it would demolish the effectiveness of the real-life Bulls thanks to Williams' ability to knock down outside shots.

And yeah, KOB that was me that stated there are only two players that can elevate Melo's game to where he can actually win a championship (with CP3 being one of them). I just don't trust JR Smith whatsoever and feel he's that X-factor that you don't need to have. If you had a Thabo Sefolosha or a Jimmy Butler, someone like that playing the 2-spot then I think my mind would be altered. Also, I hate your bench while I only dislike Chicago's bench.

What it ultimately comes down to is the defense for this teams, because I think these teams are even offensively (I think Horford's getting mad underrated in this thread). And the combination of rebounding and interior defense the Bulls have would just be too much for the Knicks. Bulls win in 7 games.

Lastly... it's bogus to me that the Miami Heat were voted the #1 overall seed in the ECFs in this game ahead of these two teams. You guys did fabulous work assembling your rosters.

Lucky.
08-28-2013, 01:56 AM
You keep acting like Melo is a terrible rebounder, which couldn't be further from the truth. His 10.8 TRB% last season is exceptionally high for a SF. Is it low for a PF? Yeah, but not obscenely low. It's nearly identical to Brandon Bass (11.2 last season), the same guy you claim will be matching up with Melo fairly often. And if your big plan is to constantly sit Duncan 15 feet from the basket, we'll take that. Duncan's mid-range jumper is dangerous, but I'll give up a 15-footer over Duncan within 6-8 feet of the basket any day of the week.

Anthony is a good rebounder at SF (although not quite as good as Kawhi's), but not PF. Your comparison towards Brandon Bass doesn't make any sense because not only is he on the bench, we never claimed him to be a great rebounder. He will see quite a bit of time on Anthony for defensive reasons. Their rebounding is similar, so we're not worried about that when Anthony lines up at PF. Plus, you said it yourself, Bass has the slight edge in rebounding.

Although it's not the ideal situation we would like, we would happily take an open jumper from Tim Duncan if you allow it. That also doesn't mean Duncan will be the only big hitting jumpers if they so happen to be left open. Al Horford has improved year in, year out throughout his career with his jumper. Whoever will be guarding him, whether it be Anthony or Battier, will have an extremely hard time covering the PnR and running around screens. Here's a look at Horford's shot chart this past year from mid range: http://stats.nba.com/playerShotchart.html?PlayerID=201143

That's not even mentioning Brandon Bass, who over the course of his career in Boston has proven to be a consistent option from midrange, being a big factor in Rajon Rondo's assists. The fact is, the players you have are not set to succeed against the PnR and would be foolish to think Chandler won't have to help from time to time. Chandler can only cover one of Horford or Duncan.





lol.... I completely fail to see what your point is. You tell me that Melo can't score without the ball in his hands and then OPENLY ADMIT that he takes set jumpers all the time. So based on your own assessment, it sounds like Melo would work great next to a dominant playmaker like Paul. Thanks for making my point for me.

He said he openly takes shots when the chance presents itself. He never said he makes them, or doesn't get frustrated.




He picked up the slack in last season's playoffs. We've been over that already. Also, let's not forget his dominant performance with Denver in 2008-2009 when he carried an inferior Nuggets team to six games in the conference finals against the Lakers, posting monster numbers the entire postseason.

Carmelo Anthony's career TS% in the playoffs is .513 so it's not like he's new to being inefficient in the playoffs, no need to just brush that under the rug. It's not super inefficient but it's not something to be proud of, either. You want to mention Anthony's Nuggets days, I'll gladly mention Deron's Jazz days, or hell, how about Tim Duncan in his prime? How crazy would that be? I'll give you Chris Paul's New Orleans days if we can have prime Duncan. Point is, we've been down this path already, multiple times. Arguments for both sides have either been small sample sizes, or not recent enough to be taken seriously. Once you're done reading through seven pages of arguments, you'll realize that though.



And don't get me started on Leondard "taking the next step" in the playoffs. He averages 14/9 in one postseason and all of a sudden he's a budding superstar. I'll admit he was the best player at times in that Finals series, but you're talking about an extremely small sample size. And it's not like he was blowing up for 20 points every night. The guy is a very solid No. 4 or a mediocre No. 3, but don't go crazy.

Umm, he wasn't that far off from his playoff performance throughout the year. Was he better? Of course, but lets not act as if it was just some fluke playoff run. People started to really take notice when he guarded LeBron respectfully and dominated the boards.




Because he's Chris ****ing Paul. Just because the guy had an off year shooting beyond the arc does not make him any less dangerous. Give him space and he score from anywhere on the floor or blow past his man to the rim.

You know who had an off year? Landry Fields. Considering we're giving players passes for not playing up to standards, I'd like key role player Fields back, in which he shot 39% from three.


That's ********. This team is no worse defensively than last year's Knicks which finished 7th in team defense a year ago. And before you start spewing nonsense about Iman Shumpert, let's not forget that the guy barely played half the season and he played only 22 minutes a game. If you think Shumpert was the reason their defense was solid last year, you shouldn't be arguing basketball, you should be focusing on coloring inside the lines.

Shane Battier only played 24 minutes, and 17 in the playoffs, while Iman played 28 in the playoffs. Oh! And Battier shot 29% from three in the playoffs while Iman shot 42%! Thank you! Been trying to go down this road for like 8 pages now! Seriously, don't discredit Shumpert for playing minor minutes when Battier didn't play much more, in fact significantly less in the playoffs while shooting at a much worse rate.

Seriously, the insults are pretty low. I feel as if most of your comebacks are "You need to watch basketball!" or "I don't believe you watch anything!" or (and get this, this is my favorite) "you shouldn't be arguing basketball, you should be focusing on coloring inside the lines."

Pretty low.


Who on our bench had negative win shares? I swear I think you're just posting random stats without looking anything whatsoever. And where are you getting your information on Battier? The guy played 25 minutes a game for the back-to-back champions. He played the 6th most minutes on the team in the regular season and 7th most minutes on the team in the postseason. That hardly sounds like a guy who "barely" cracked a rotation. If you're going to make up facts, at least have something to back them up.

These aren't made up facts, we were referring to when KoB said Caron Butler started for the Clippers in the playoffs, yet in the playoffs he had negative WS/48. I realize you haven't read everything, but don't say our claims are fake, or insult us when you haven't read through everything.


Also, I don't care how well Bass defended Melo in the playoffs. He's your best bench player and that's easily one of the worst offensive AND defensive benches I've ever seen. Barea is not a legit point guard, Landry Fields is a big pile of **** and Aaron Gray played a whopping 12 minutes per game for the lowly Raptors.

I don't really care that Paul was really clutch in a two game sample size, or that Battier made some three's come postseason. Or that J.R. Smith played lights out in the playoffs (sorry, got carried away there. No way in hell that happened). This is probably all irrelevant, though. And again, Gray IS NOT PLAYING IN THIS SERIES. 8 man, playoff rotations. They happen. They're real. As I've stated before, we have arguably the two best bench players in this series. To say our bench is terrible, without acknowledging how bad yours is, is well, opinion. A false one, at that. Here's my opinion: There's no way in hell Augustin is better than Barea, Hansbrough is better than Bass, and Caron Butler is an actual useful player anymore (Uhh, negative). Cool, you have Kenyon Martin. We'll let you have that. We have two of the best bigs in the game with the versatility to play both PF and C. You know that versatility thing, kinda what you're doing with Anthony. Not to mention, Bass can play limited minutes at center when playing small ball, not that we plan to.




It's not confidence. It's ignorance. And the score doesn't mean anything. Just because you're winning doesn't mean the points you're making are valid. It also doesn't mean your team is necessarily better. I'd trust a few decent minds from these games over the PSD masses any day of the week.

If by "a few decent minds" you mean GM's that participated in the game, we're currently winning that 5-3. Long way to go though, good luck the rest of the way.

Greet
08-28-2013, 10:13 AM
While I am leaning towards the Knicks, there is a crazy amount of disrespect towards Deron Williams right now!

Lets not forget that D-Will is one of the best playoff performers ever for a PG! He also has constantly out-performed CP3 head-2-head when he was in his Utah Jazz days - Which he seems to be again.

Also the Knicks argument is based a lot off clutch play down the stretch, Deron was a pretty damn clutch player.

Killerjug
08-28-2013, 10:45 AM
13-10 official count! got a close one!

Eagles4Lyfe
08-28-2013, 10:51 AM
While I am leaning towards the Knicks, there is a crazy amount of disrespect towards Deron Williams right now!

Lets not forget that D-Will is one of the best playoff performers ever for a PG! He also has constantly out-performed CP3 head-2-head when he was in his Utah Jazz days - Which he seems to be again.

Also the Knicks argument is based a lot off clutch play down the stretch, Deron was a pretty damn clutch player.

So why are you leaning towards em?

KnicksorBust
08-28-2013, 10:54 AM
While I am leaning towards the Knicks, there is a crazy amount of disrespect towards Deron Williams right now!

Lets not forget that D-Will is one of the best playoff performers ever for a PG! He also has constantly out-performed CP3 head-2-head when he was in his Utah Jazz days - Which he seems to be again.

Also the Knicks argument is based a lot off clutch play down the stretch, Deron was a pretty damn clutch player.

I'm glad to hear you are leaning towards the Knicks. As Bruno said we have the two most impactful payers in a close series. That makes the difference. Meanwhile, I understand your appreciation for Deron. He came on last year but as someone who watches a lot of Nets games because they are local for me, he had by far his best games of the seasons against terrible teams and was lighting up the likes of Mike James, Kemba Walker, and Rodney Stuckey. Not exactly the elite of the league. Meanwhile Deron was still a disaster last year in the clutch. Despite the fact that few players played more clutch minutes than him he was one of the worst shooters in the league. He shot 27% from the field and 18% from 3pt. In addition, that's being guarded by all point guards in the NBA and Paul is All-NBA Defensive 1st team. He's held Williams to under 50% shooting in every game they've played over the last 3 years. That's extremely relevant here because that's even without an elite defensive center like Tyson Chandler backing him up.

KnicksorBust
08-28-2013, 10:59 AM
So why are you leaning towards em?

Maybe he has a problem with your defensive scheme switching all of your players strengths to weaknesses? Like putting a 250pound center and sending him to the corner to guard spot-up shooters. Sending your other big man to guard pick and rolls all game with Tyson Chandler and CP3 leaving the paint wide open. Maybe he doesn't like how you keep dodging my posts or PSK's questions? There's plenty of reasons for him to prefer NY.

Killerjug
08-28-2013, 11:00 AM
thought he asked greet that question not KOB

KnicksorBust
08-28-2013, 11:01 AM
13-10 official count! got a close one!

:clap:

Eagles4Lyfe
08-28-2013, 11:04 AM
Maybe he has a problem with your defensive scheme switching all of your players strengths to weaknesses? Like putting a 250pound center and sending him to the corner to guard spot-up shooters. Sending your other big man to guard pick and rolls all game with Tyson Chandler and CP3 leaving the paint wide open. Maybe he doesn't like how you keep dodging my posts or PSK's questions? There's plenty of reasons for him to prefer NY.

Well ya if you actually had good enough defenders who were versatile and can defend multiple positions, then maybe you would've, but you don't so tough luck.

Last I check my CO's responded to PSK last night, and I've responded to every big point you've made, its you guys that are picking and choosing your spots, we don't have anything to hide from.

2 can play that game, what's going to happen when Tyson goes out to guard Duncan in the mid range or PnR's??
Oh ya that's right there will be even easier ways for us to get more boards and second chance opportunities.

Were not the one's here starting players who don't belong in the starting 5, you guys are. You should be the ones defending not us.

Lucky.
08-28-2013, 11:06 AM
Maybe he has a problem with your defensive scheme switching all of your players strengths to weaknesses? Like putting a 250pound center and sending him to the corner to guard spot-up shooters. Sending your other big man to guard pick and rolls all game with Tyson Chandler and CP3 leaving the paint wide open. Maybe he doesn't like how you keep dodging my posts or PSK's questions? There's plenty of reasons for him to prefer NY.

There's nothing wrong with our defensive scheme, we're versatile. We have replied many times, yet you keep saying we're dodging you which is far from the case. As for PSK's question, I'm not answering that. It's a two game sample size. If we lose from a two game sample size, congrats.


To add to it, it's not even a two game sample size. Those stats only count for the last five minutes of two games, so it's a 10 minute. How about Al Horford's 90% on 43% USG? Although his USG is not as high, neither is Paul's shooting percentage.

Ebbs
08-28-2013, 11:11 AM
Finally read the write ups.

Damn it's tough

KnicksorBust
08-28-2013, 11:17 AM
Well ya if you actually had good enough defenders who were versatile and can defend multiple positions, then maybe you would've, but you don't so tough luck.

Last I check my CO's responded to PSK last night, and I've responded to every big point you've made, its you guys that are picking and choosing your spots, we don't have anything to hide from.

2 can play that game, what's going to happen when Tyson goes out to guard Duncan in the mid range or PnR's??
Oh ya that's right there will be even easier ways for us to get more boards and second chance opportunities.

Were not the one's here starting players who don't belong in the starting 5, you guys are. You should be the ones defending not us.

Duncan shot 49.2% from the field this season. But he only shot 46.6% as a pick and roll man (compared to Tyson Chandler's 67.1%) and Duncan only shoots 42.7% as a spot-up shooter. Which ranked him 236th in the NBA. How is that even remotely supposed to be a concern for us? Duncan, for all his strengths, is not nearly as athletic or quick as Tyson so the more pick and rolls that both teams run the bigger the advantage for New York. I swear it's like you are trying to find every way possible to get the LEAST out of your players. You have your frontcourt 20 feet from the basket guarding pick and rolls and spot-up shooters and your SF (who ranked 239th) guarding the post.

Eagles4Lyfe
08-28-2013, 11:39 AM
Duncan shot 49.2% from the field this season. But he only shot 46.6% as a pick and roll man (compared to Tyson Chandler's 67.1%) and Duncan only shoots 42.7% as a spot-up shooter. Which ranked him 236th in the NBA. How is that even remotely supposed to be a concern for us? Duncan, for all his strengths, is not nearly as athletic or quick as Tyson so the more pick and rolls that both teams run the bigger the advantage for New York. I swear it's like you are trying to find every way possible to get the LEAST out of your players. You have your frontcourt 20 feet from the basket guarding pick and rolls and spot-up shooters and your SF (who ranked 239th) guarding the post.

Again you completely dodged half my post and chose something that you think you can easily nit pick..
You answered something I never even asked you. My question was
what's going to happen when Tyson goes out to guard Duncan in the mid range or PnR's??

My question wasn't what is Duncan's shot% from those areas but even then you stating those numbers just hurt your case.
Like I said your team isn't a good rebounding team so if Duncan does miss, then Horford or Kawhi will be getting easy boards and put backs, right?
Also Duncan shoots 47% from 10-15 feet and 50% from 3-9 feet, so guess what he's going to be doing?

Al Horford is going to be the one mainly involved in pick and rolls, you know why?
Al Horford ranks 15th in the NBA on points scored per play on pick-and-rolls, making 59 of 96 (62 percent).

However, Melo struggled to stay with his man on isolation plays or when forced to run around screens, and his poor help defense left the Knicks vulnerable at times along the back line.

Carmelo Anthony - .87PPP overall ranking 195th, .86PPP on Isos ranking 234th, 1.02 PPP on spot up defense ranking 240th, (-1.7 RAPM)

So other than Post up D, Melo is a liability on that end of the floor, and not only that whoever is guarding him Battier or Melo, we are going to have a massive rebounding advantage

^^^ Remember that post you ignored, well ya, here is your chance to reply to it :)

N for **** and giggles just to respond to your post, just because Duncan's involved in the PnR doesn't mean he's always going to get the open jumpers or get the ball from whoever he's involved with.

KnicksorBust
08-28-2013, 12:14 PM
I did this earlier in the thread and I'll do it again. Break this down point by point so there is no confusion.


Again you completely dodged half my post and chose something that you think you can easily nit pick..
You answered something I never even asked you. My question was what's going to happen when Tyson goes out to guard Duncan in the mid range or PnR's??

To anyone with critical skills my answer is implied. Nothing bad is going to happen because you’re making Duncan a less efficient player by making him work the high post instead of the low post. Thank you.


My question wasn't what is Duncan's shot% from those areas but even then you stating those numbers just hurt your case.
Like I said your team isn't a good rebounding team so if Duncan does miss, then Horford or Kawhi will be getting easy boards and put backs, right?

Kawhi Leonard and his 1.1orpg average for an unstoppable 4.3% offensive rebound percentage? This is what is going to burn me? Horford at least gets 2.6 per game but you are acting like you have Dennis Rodman and Moses Malone crashing the boards. It's not like you have Tyson Chandler and his massive 4.1 offensive rebounds per game to hurt me. He's on the Knicks.


Also Duncan shoots 47% from 10-15 feet and 50% from 3-9 feet, so guess what he's going to be doing?

Your strategy to beat me is Tim Duncan jump shots? Thank you. Keep playing to your teams weaknesses. It makes a close series even more clear for the voters.


Al Horford is going to be the one mainly involved in pick and rolls, you know why?
Al Horford ranks 15th in the NBA on points scored per play on pick-and-rolls, making 59 of 96 (62 percent).

First of all, I’m looking at Horford as shooting 51.4% on pick and roll shots per Synergy so please post your link because your stats are off. Second of all, while you run your pick and roll with a PG that has never played with either of his big men. I’ll be running mine with Chris Paul who has played on multiple teams with Carmelo Anthony (Olympics) and Tyson Chandler (Hornets + Olympics). Carmelo ranked 5th in the NBA shooting over 60% FG on pick and roll man as a deadly pick and pop player. Tyson Chandler shot even higher at 67.5%FG. They were two of the absolute best in the entire NBA and that was with Raymond Felton. Now they will be running pick and rolls with the best point guard in the NBA someone who have they played with before and had much success.


However, Melo struggled to stay with his man on isolation plays or when forced to run around screens, and his poor help defense left the Knicks vulnerable at times along the back line.

Carmelo Anthony - .87PPP overall ranking 195th, .86PPP on Isos ranking 234th, 1.02 PPP on spot up defense ranking 240th, (-1.7 RAPM)

So other than Post up D, Melo is a liability on that end of the floor, and not only that whoever is guarding him Battier or Melo, we are going to have a massive rebounding advantage

I already discussed the rebounding. Now, Melo is not the greatest defender in the league but he doesn’t have to be to have a huge impact on this game. First of all, Al Horford wasn’t even in the top 30 in points per game. He’s not a huge offensive scorer and never has been. It’s not his game. Carmelo led the league. Second of all, despite his shortcomings, Carmelo still held opposing PFs to a eFG% of only 48% and a PER of 13.4 Meanwhile as a PF he had a eFG% of 51% and a PER of 24.8. This is a net advantage of 11.4 in PER production. Finally, we do have 3 quality defensive big men between Tyson-Kenyon-Hansbrough to team with Melo in the frontcourt to provide quality depth and rebounding.


^^^ Remember that post you ignored, well ya, here is your chance to reply to it :)

Thank you for the opportunity. Feel free to return the favor on some of the old posts that you seem to have missed. :)


N for **** and giggles just to respond to your post, just because Duncan's involved in the PnR doesn't mean he's always going to get the open jumpers or get the ball from whoever he's involved with.

Okay... so you want me to discuss how I'm going to guard Duncan when he doesn't get the ball on PnR? I'll probably just let Tyson Chandler box him out and get a rebound. That was a tough one though. I'm glad I had some time to think that one over.

Ebbs
08-28-2013, 12:19 PM
I think the Bulls team is more complete.

Through the 1-5 they have some offends, defends, playmaking, spacing and rebounding.

That being said I think Horford is sortve wasted on the perimeter. Batter is not gonna kill you either way. He's at the end of his career. Horf packing that paint and cleaning up those boards with Timmy makes more sense no?

Witt the Knicks I think they have the pieces to spread out and disassemble the Bulls D. Although honestly I don't know how the offence would flow. I'd almost want JR off the floor any time I had CP3 and Melo together.

Lol on a side note. Deron isn't in his peak anymore. He also isn't 10x worse than Chris Paul. Was hilarious you both claimed to win the H2H.

KnicksorBust
08-28-2013, 12:31 PM
Chemistry:

Knicks:
Tyson Chandler + Carmelo Anthony (2 seasons NYK + Olympics)
Tyson Chandler + Chris Paul (3 seasons Hornets + Olympics)
Tyson Chandler + Kenyon Martin (1 season NYK)
Carmelo Anthony + Kenyon Martin (7 seasons Nuggets + 1 season NYK)
Carmelo Anthony + JR Smith (5 seasons Nuggets + 2 seasons NYK)
Carmelo Anthony + Chris Paul (Olympics)
Chris Paul + Caron Butler (1 season Clippers)
JR Smith + Kenyon Martin (5 seasons Nuggets + 1 season NYK)
JR Smith + Chris Paul (1 season Hornets)
DJ Augustin + Tyler Hansbrough (1 season Pacers)

Chicago:
Tim Duncan + Kawhi Leonard (2 seasons Spurs)
Landry Fields + Aaron Gray (1 season Raptors)

Who has the edge here?

mightybosstone
08-28-2013, 12:32 PM
Anthony is a good rebounder at SF (although not quite as good as Kawhi's), but not PF. Your comparison towards Brandon Bass doesn't make any sense because not only is he on the bench, we never claimed him to be a great rebounder. He will see quite a bit of time on Anthony for defensive reasons. Their rebounding is similar, so we're not worried about that when Anthony lines up at PF. Plus, you said it yourself, Bass has the slight edge in rebounding.
You basically just made my point for me. If Bass spends quit a bit of time guarding Melo, than this HUGE rebounding edge you guys keep promoting is totally overblown, because Bass' rebounding is a negligible improvement over Melo's.


Although it's not the ideal situation we would like, we would happily take an open jumper from Tim Duncan if you allow it. That also doesn't mean Duncan will be the only big hitting jumpers if they so happen to be left open. Al Horford has improved year in, year out throughout his career with his jumper. Whoever will be guarding him, whether it be Anthony or Battier, will have an extremely hard time covering the PnR and running around screens. Here's a look at Horford's shot chart this past year from mid range: http://stats.nba.com/playerShotchart.html?PlayerID=201143

That's not even mentioning Brandon Bass, who over the course of his career in Boston has proven to be a consistent option from midrange, being a big factor in Rajon Rondo's assists. The fact is, the players you have are not set to succeed against the PnR and would be foolish to think Chandler won't have to help from time to time. Chandler can only cover one of Horford or Duncan.

I never said your guys couldn't hit a mid-range jumper. I said I'd much rather have Duncan shooing a mid-range jump shot than getting the ball in one-on-one situations on the block. While we're looking at shot charts, let's examine this one: http://stats.nba.com/playerShotchart.html?PlayerID=1495

In terms of straight away mid-range jumpers or those from the left corner, he's above average, hovering around 50%, but nowhere else outside of the paint does he consistently shoot better than 41%. Near the basket, his percentage skyrockets to nearly 60%, which is why 48% of his shot attempts came around the rim last season. So I'd be fine having Chandler stay closer to the paint if it means giving up a 15-footer to Duncan, especially if it's an area where Duncan is outside of his comfort zone.


Carmelo Anthony's career TS% in the playoffs is .513 so it's not like he's new to being inefficient in the playoffs, no need to just brush that under the rug. It's not super inefficient but it's not something to be proud of, either.
No one said it was, but Anthony also has never played with an elite point guard of Paul's caliber. To spout off of efficiency numbers without considering the impact of one of the greatest point guards in NBA history is ludicrous.


You want to mention Anthony's Nuggets days, I'll gladly mention Deron's Jazz days, or hell, how about Tim Duncan in his prime? How crazy would that be? I'll give you Chris Paul's New Orleans days if we can have prime Duncan. Point is, we've been down this path already, multiple times. Arguments for both sides have either been small sample sizes, or not recent enough to be taken seriously. Once you're done reading through seven pages of arguments, you'll realize that though.
But you're acting as if Anthony in Denver or Paul in New Orleans were substantially better players than the guys playing in New York and LA today, which isn't the case at all. Anthony just posted the best season of his career and Paul posted the second highest WS/48 of his career, the fourth highest PER of his career and the second best postseason advanced stats of his career. Those guys are every bit as good as they were five years ago. Duncan is not the same guy he was in his prime, and while D-Will certainly had his best season in years, he's also not that far removed from the worst season of his career in 2011-2012.


Umm, he wasn't that far off from his playoff performance throughout the year. Was he better? Of course, but lets not act as if it was just some fluke playoff run. People started to really take notice when he guarded LeBron respectfully and dominated the boards.
In terms of efficiency, Leonard was great throughout the playoffs. The man knows how to play his role in an offense. But again, efficiency alone does not make you a great scoring threat. If that were the case, Tyson Chandler would be considered one of the best scorers in the league. Prior to the Miami series, Leonard's scoring and rebounding numbers were not close to what he posted in that series, averaging 12.3 points and 7.1 rebounds per game in the playoffs. Those are role player numbers, not the stats of a star breaking out.


You know who had an off year? Landry Fields. Considering we're giving players passes for not playing up to standards, I'd like key role player Fields back, in which he shot 39% from three.
lol.... There's a HUGE difference between the two things you're comparing. Chris Paul had an off year in which he was slightly below average shooting the 3-pointer, but was still third in PER and WS/48. Fields is two years removed from shooting 39% from 3-point range and has pretty much regressed in every possible way since his rookie season. He shot 14% from beyond the arc, posted a 48.7% TS%, a 10.3 PER and a .052 WS/48!!! Landry Fields is just a bad NBA player not matter what stat or qualification you use to judge talent. Chris Paul just shot 28% worse from beyond the arc than his career average for one season. MASSIVE DIFFERENCE.


Shane Battier only played 24 minutes, and 17 in the playoffs, while Iman played 28 in the playoffs. Oh! And Battier shot 29% from three in the playoffs while Iman shot 42%! Thank you! Been trying to go down this road for like 8 pages now! Seriously, don't discredit Shumpert for playing minor minutes when Battier didn't play much more, in fact significantly less in the playoffs while shooting at a much worse rate.
Battier was in a funk in the playoffs. No one is arguing that. But he man stepped up HUGE when it counted for Miami in the San Antonion series, shooting 75% from 3 in elimination games. He still shot 38% on 3s the previous postseason and an astonishing 43% during the regular season.

Also, I'm not trying to discredit Shumpert's 3-point shooting, so please don't take my arguments out of context. I'm discrediting his impact on the Knicks defense. To say the guy was instrumental in the Knicks having a top 7 defense when the guy missed half the season and only played 22 minutes a night makes absolutely no sense.


Seriously, the insults are pretty low.
I'm not insulting the guy, I'm insulting the argument. If you're going to come to the voting thread with an argument, you better be able to back them up, and most of Eagles' arguments have been speaking in vague generalizations with no real data to back them up. And many of the things he's said make me believe the guy didn't watch much playoff basketball last year.

I'm not trying to be insulting, but if you're going to play at the big kids table, you need to bring the big kids arguments.


These aren't made up facts, we were referring to when KoB said Caron Butler started for the Clippers in the playoffs, yet in the playoffs he had negative WS/48. I realize you haven't read everything, but don't say our claims are fake, or insult us when you haven't read through everything.
He just said a player had a negative WS, he never said during the postseason. But even if that is the case, you're talking about 16 games in which a jumpshooter couldn't find his stroke. That's not that uncommon. Also, I'd still take him in a heartbeat over Fields, and I'm pretty sure any contending team would, as well.

And, no, I haven't read everything. But your write-up is like a freaking novel with now headlines or breaks, and there's over 100 posts of arguments in here. I don't think anybody has the time to read all of this, especially when I'm trying to counter all of these arguments with these massive freaking posts.


As I've stated before, we have arguably the two best bench players in this series.
No you don't, and it's not arguable. Butler, Hansbrough and Martin are easily better basketball players than Barea. Barea is just a streaky, inefficient scorer who hasn't posted a TS% over 51% in three years, can't defend, doesn't get to the free throw line and provides little other value.


To say our bench is terrible, without acknowledging how bad yours is, is well, opinion. A false one, at that. Here's my opinion: There's no way in hell Augustin is better than Barea, Hansbrough is better than Bass, and Caron Butler is an actual useful player anymore (Uhh, negative). Cool, you have Kenyon Martin. We'll let you have that. We have two of the best bigs in the game with the versatility to play both PF and C. You know that versatility thing, kinda what you're doing with Anthony. Not to mention, Bass can play limited minutes at center when playing small ball, not that we plan to.

Who has a higher career PER and WS/48 between Barea and Augustin? Augustin. Bass or Hansbrough? Hansbrough. And to say Butler is just not a legitimate contributor anymore when he averaged 10 points a game for one of the league's best teams is totally unfounded. Also, I'm not ripping on you guys for having a versatile roster, I'm ripping on you for having a thing one. A lot of your starters are playing way too many minutes, and if guys like Barea and Fields are getting substantial playing time due to injury or foul trouble, you guys are going to have major problems.

mightybosstone
08-28-2013, 12:47 PM
Witt the Knicks I think they have the pieces to spread out and disassemble the Bulls D. Although honestly I don't know how the offence would flow. I'd almost want JR off the floor any time I had CP3 and Melo together.
Smith will get some time with the second unit, but we think his skills are best utilized as a spot shooter on an offense with an elite playmaking point guard like Paul. His best seasons shooting the ball were when he played in the same offense with Allen Iverson in Denver next to another talented playmaking guard. He shot 39% or better from beyond the arc in 4 of his 5 seasons with the Nuggets and posted a TS% of 55% or higher in those four seasons.

Smith would also be an excellent pairing with Paul in transition, and we think we can utilize his athleticism to get him better looks near the rim rather than taking off balanced jumpers off the dribble like he has been forced to do in the past.


Lol on a side note. Deron isn't in his peak anymore. He also isn't 10x worse than Chris Paul. Was hilarious you both claimed to win the H2H.
I don't think D-Will is 10 times worse than Paul, but he's clearly a statistically inferior player and Paul has dominated them in their most recent meetings. I don't know how anyone could say the Bulls have an edge at point guard in this series and keep a straight face. It's not even debatable.

Eagles4Lyfe
08-28-2013, 01:42 PM
I think the Bulls team is more complete.

Through the 1-5 they have some offends, defends, playmaking, spacing and rebounding.

That being said I think Horford is sortve wasted on the perimeter. Batter is not gonna kill you either way. He's at the end of his career. Horf packing that paint and cleaning up those boards with Timmy makes more sense no?

Witt the Knicks I think they have the pieces to spread out and disassemble the Bulls D. Although honestly I don't know how the offence would flow. I'd almost want JR off the floor any time I had CP3 and Melo together.

Lol on a side note. Deron isn't in his peak anymore. He also isn't 10x worse than Chris Paul. Was hilarious you both claimed to win the H2H.

Lemme reply to you before i get to KOB's post.

We only used the h2h to show that CP3 didn't completely stop Deron's offense when they played H2H. They used H2H thinking we were putting Deron on CP3 defensively which we didn't. We swerved because we put Thabo on him.

Also what's wrong with Kawhi crashing the boards when Horford is out there on Battier. Keep in mind they have Battier for like 25 minutes, so there is a huge chunk of the game when Horford won't even have to go out there. It's all about matching up and Kawhi is our best bet to slow down Melo because we knew they would think we would use Horford and try using that as a severe mismatch, whereas now with Kawhi on him, its not as significant as they could've claimed.

Also keep in mind Kawhi averaged about double digit boards against the Heat in the finals, so were more than confident in his abilities to get the board.

I also agree with your Smith comments and thanks for the compliments on our team.

They have a good team, but I think in a h2h series we would pull it out because of all the reasons you just stated, because those are things you can't just overlook. Rebounding is a serious deficiency, that you can not afford to have a big hole in.

Guppyfighter
08-28-2013, 01:44 PM
GIVE ME THE KNICKS IN AN UPSET

Upset city, baby

Greet
08-28-2013, 01:47 PM
I'm glad to hear you are leaning towards the Knicks. As Bruno said we have the two most impactful payers in a close series. That makes the difference. Meanwhile, I understand your appreciation for Deron. He came on last year but as someone who watches a lot of Nets games because they are local for me, he had by far his best games of the seasons against terrible teams and was lighting up the likes of Mike James, Kemba Walker, and Rodney Stuckey. Not exactly the elite of the league. Meanwhile Deron was still a disaster last year in the clutch. Despite the fact that few players played more clutch minutes than him he was one of the worst shooters in the league. He shot 27% from the field and 18% from 3pt. In addition, that's being guarded by all point guards in the NBA and Paul is All-NBA Defensive 1st team. He's held Williams to under 50% shooting in every game they've played over the last 3 years. That's extremely relevant here because that's even without an elite defensive center like Tyson Chandler backing him up.

Well you are using a 3-year sample size that HEAVILY favors CP3 because of Deron's injuries, especially his shooting%. This year D-Will seemed finally almost back to his Utah days.... These are pretty big things.

KnicksorBust
08-28-2013, 02:04 PM
Well you are using a 3-year sample size that HEAVILY favors CP3 because of Deron's injuries, especially his shooting%. This year D-Will seemed finally almost back to his Utah days.... These are pretty big things.

What's pretty big to me is the fact that the Bulls are literally mis-using EVERY SINGLE PLAYER of theirs in their defenses matchups Greet.

Thabo Sefolosha on CP3 - Thabo who ranked 342nd in defensive PPP per Synergy last season will be guarding a position that according to 82games he didn't even guard. The Thunder have good defensive PGs which is why Thabo was always used on perimeter players. Now the Bulls are forcing him to put pressure on the best PG in the NBA and guard pick and rolls all game. Mismatch

Deron on JR Smith - Deron ranked 107th in defensive PPP last season. Not bad. What were the only measures of defense that he ranked worse in? That would be 255th in isolation plays and 337th guarding spot-up shooters. Where do the Bulls put him? On JR Smith who ranked in the top 100 in both isolation scoring (58th!) and spot-up shooting (87th) where he shot 38% on 3's in spot-up players. That's his strength as a scorer.

Al Horford on Shane Battier - Horford ranked 119th in defensive PPP last season. Where was his biggest weakness? It's his ability to defend spot-up shooters and it wasn't even close. He ranked 253rd in the league. Where do the Bulls put him? On our best spot-up shooter Shane Battier who ranked 25th in the NBA and ripped the net 139-329 threes at a blistering 42.2% from 3pt.

Kawhi Leonard on Carmelo Anthony - Leonard ranked 87th in defensive PPP last season. Where was his biggest weakness? By far it was his ability to guard the post ranking 239th in the league. Where do the Bulls put him? On the Knicks best post-up player Carmelo Anthony who ranked 33rd in the nba in post-up scoring last season.

Tim Duncan on Tyson Chandler - Duncan ranked 226th in defensive PPP last season. His worst defense was defending spot-up shooting. Where was his 2nd worst defense? Defending the pick and roll allowing opposing roll players to shoot 55% on pick and roll. Where do the Bulls put him? On arguably the most efficient pick and roll big man in the NBA Tyson Chandler who shot 67% on pick and roll players and that was with one of the worst starting point guards in the NBA not Chris Paul.

Literally every matchup they've turned their players strengths into weaknesses that the Knicks can exploit on offense.

Guppyfighter
08-28-2013, 02:08 PM
What's pretty big to me is the fact that the Bulls are literally mis-using EVERY SINGLE PLAYER of theirs in their defenses matchups Greet.

Thabo Sefolosha on CP3 - Thabo who ranked 342nd in defensive PPP per Synergy last season will be guarding a position that according to 82games he didn't even guard. The Thunder have good defensive PGs which is why Thabo was always used on perimeter players. Now the Bulls are forcing him to put pressure on the best PG in the NBA and guard pick and rolls all game. Mismatch

Deron on JR Smith - Deron ranked 107th in defensive PPP last season. Not bad. What were the only measures of defense that he ranked worse in? That would be 255th in isolation plays and 337th guarding spot-up shooters. Where do the Bulls put him? On JR Smith who ranked in the top 100 in both isolation scoring (58th!) and spot-up shooting (87th) where he shot 38% on 3's in spot-up players. That's his strength as a scorer.

Al Horford on Shane Battier - Horford ranked 119th in defensive PPP last season. Where was his biggest weakness? It's his ability to defend spot-up shooters and it wasn't even close. He ranked 253rd in the league. Where do the Bulls put him? On our best spot-up shooter Shane Battier who ranked 25th in the NBA and ripped the net 139-329 threes at a blistering 42.2% from 3pt.

Kawhi Leonard on Carmelo Anthony - Leonard ranked 87th in defensive PPP last season. Where was his biggest weakness? By far it was his ability to guard the post ranking 239th in the league. Where do the Bulls put him? On the Knicks best post-up player Carmelo Anthony who ranked 33rd in the nba in post-up scoring last season.

Tim Duncan on Tyson Chandler - Duncan ranked 226th in defensive PPP last season. His worst defense was defending spot-up shooting. Where was his 2nd worst defense? Defending the pick and roll allowing opposing roll players to shoot 55% on pick and roll. Where do the Bulls put him? On arguably the most efficient pick and roll big man in the NBA Tyson Chandler who shot 67% on pick and roll players and that was with one of the worst starting point guards in the NBA not Chris Paul.

Literally every matchup they've turned their players strengths into weaknesses that the Knicks can exploit on offense.

I was basically saying this except less wordy.

KNICKS IN THE UPSET

Greet
08-28-2013, 02:11 PM
I do agree with the points on defensive that you're making it.

I may be the only one but I don't think I buy the chemistry of the Knicks. CP3 loves having the ball in his hands, Melo needs his xxx amount of shots per game to be happy, and JR shoots whenever he touches it. I think it will not take long until CP3 would get REAL frustrated at Melo and especially JR, if their shots aren't going in. Lets be honest, CP3 is used to being the man and running the offense the way he wants it to be run. Same goes with Melo..... and JR doesn't really give two ***** about what people think of his shooting.

Guppyfighter
08-28-2013, 02:13 PM
I do agree with the points on defensive that you're making it.

I may be the only one but I don't think I buy the chemistry of the Knicks. CP3 loves having the ball in his hands, Melo needs his xxx amount of shots per game to be happy, and JR shoots whenever he touches it. I think it will not take long until CP3 would get REAL frustrated at Melo and especially JR, if their shots aren't going in. Lets be honest, CP3 is used to being the man and running the offense the way he wants it to be run. Same goes with Melo..... and JR doesn't really give two ***** about what people think of his shooting.

CP3 can make anyone happy. It's why he is the best PG by a fair margin. And just cause he's the best at everything too.

KnicksorBust
08-28-2013, 02:27 PM
I do agree with the points on defensive that you're making it.

I may be the only one but I don't think I buy the chemistry of the Knicks. CP3 loves having the ball in his hands, Melo needs his xxx amount of shots per game to be happy, and JR shoots whenever he touches it. I think it will not take long until CP3 would get REAL frustrated at Melo and especially JR, if their shots aren't going in. Lets be honest, CP3 is used to being the man and running the offense the way he wants it to be run. Same goes with Melo..... and JR doesn't really give two ***** about what people think of his shooting.

All I would ask you to do before you make your final decision is look back at the Nuggets team that made the WCF with Billups-JR Smith-Carmelo Anthony. They blended together just fine. JR Smith's efficiency spikes significantly higher with a true PG. Billups usage that season? 21.8% What was Chris Paul's usage last season with the Clippers? 22.6%

Despite ranking 2nd All-Time in Ast% at 46.3%, CP3 has never ranked in he top 10 in usage. He knows how to get teammates involved and take over when it counts. He sacrifices 2-3 ppg to raise his own efficiency to elite levels and get everyone else going until the 4th quarter when he becomes one of the 3 best players in the NBA at closing out games. LeBron and Wade proved that it can work and their skillsets are even more of a clash than a true PG like Chris Paul and a hybrid forward like Carmelo Anthony. Not only can it work when two elite superstar friends become teammates but it wins championships.

Guppyfighter
08-28-2013, 02:29 PM
I agree with KnicksorBUst.


Even if his team wouldn't win in real life (it would I think) his explanations and argument merit votes. He's explained himself and his team well.

It's a crime if the Knicks don't move on.

Eagles4Lyfe
08-28-2013, 02:49 PM
To anyone with critical skills my answer is implied. Nothing bad is going to happen because youíre making Duncan a less efficient player by making him work the high post instead of the low post. Thank you.
Your hypothetically implying a situation, our main focus as outlined is PnR'ing with Horford. Timmy D is just going to do what he does best, from those area's I outlined. He's made a living of those of the back board shots, which is what he'll do in this series because no one can and has proven to stop that shot of us, as outlined by the %'s i provided.



Kawhi Leonard and his 1.1orpg average for an unstoppable 4.3% offensive rebound percentage? This is what is going to burn me? Horford at least gets 2.6 per game but you are acting like you have Dennis Rodman and Moses Malone crashing the boards. It's not like you have Tyson Chandler and his massive 4.1 offensive rebounds per game to hurt me. He's on the Knicks.

Al Horfords 2.6 per game is higher than Battier rebounding average as a whole. Battier in the limited minutes only got 2.3 RPG. So who is Battier defending exactly? The guy who averaged close to 11 RPG in Kawhi against a team with Bosh, Lebron and Wade or Al Horford who averages more ORB's than Battier does boards as a whole?
Against your below average rebounders aside from Tyson, you might as well consider Horford and Kawhi Rodman and Malone. (sarcastic ofc before you turn this into some weird debate)..




Your strategy to beat me is Tim Duncan jump shots? Thank you. Keep playing to your teams weaknesses. It makes a close series even more clear for the voters.
Umm no you pointed out how Duncan shooting from 16-23 was just slightly above average. I'm telling you where Duncan shoots as a really good clip. What's wrong with dumping it into Duncan and having him do his patented of the back board shots from those ranges? Like I said before no one's stopped him and he shoots it at a good clip, so what's wrong with that :confused:
It's one of his strengths that he's made a living of in his career.



First of all, Iím looking at Horford as shooting 51.4% on pick and roll shots per Synergy so please post your link because your stats are off. Second of all, while you run your pick and roll with a PG that has never played with either of his big men. Iíll be running mine with Chris Paul who has played on multiple teams with Carmelo Anthony (Olympics) and Tyson Chandler (Hornets + Olympics). Carmelo ranked 5th in the NBA shooting over 60% FG on pick and roll man as a deadly pick and pop player. Tyson Chandler shot even higher at 67.5%FG. They were two of the absolute best in the entire NBA and that was with Raymond Felton. Now they will be running pick and rolls with the best point guard in the NBA someone who have they played with before and had much success.

My Co is the one who found that stat and once he tells me the site he got it of, I'll gladly post it.

Also a PG and big have to have chemistry and should have played together to form a good PnR now?? lol oookay there



I already discussed the rebounding. Now, Melo is not the greatest defender in the league but he doesnít have to be to have a huge impact on this game. First of all, Al Horford wasnít even in the top 30 in points per game. Heís not a huge offensive scorer and never has been. Itís not his game. Carmelo led the league. Second of all, despite his shortcomings, Carmelo still held opposing PFs to a eFG% of only 48% and a PER of 13.4 Meanwhile as a PF he had a eFG% of 51% and a PER of 24.8. This is a net advantage of 11.4 in PER production. Finally, we do have 3 quality defensive big men between Tyson-Kenyon-Hansbrough to team with Melo in the frontcourt to provide quality depth and rebounding.

Um Carmelo is listed at PF for 20 minutes IIRC, you damn sure better bet he be a good rebounder when playing that position. You can try sweeping it under the rug all you want, but his 6.7 boards per 36 from a PF is straight trash. He'll get out bodied and boarded by Kawhi who's average I've stated against far superior rebounders and Horford. This is a hugeee mismatch for us.



Thank you for the opportunity. Feel free to return the favor on some of the old posts that you seem to have missed. :)

You too;)


Okay... so you want me to discuss how I'm going to guard Duncan when he doesn't get the ball on PnR? I'll probably just let Tyson Chandler box him out and get a rebound. That was a tough one though. I'm glad I had some time to think that one over

Yup except that is not what Duncan is going to be doing. Your hypothetically making up situations we never even game planned to use consistently. Nice try doe..

Eagles4Lyfe
08-28-2013, 03:01 PM
What's pretty big to me is the fact that the Bulls are literally mis-using EVERY SINGLE PLAYER of theirs in their defenses matchups Greet.

I like how you continue to try harping on this, its called flexibility defensively it happens.
So I guess Lebron James should be a PG since he defended Tony Parker in the finals. You put your best defenders on the players you know they can guard. Thabo has proven he's a tough matchup for some of the best scorers in the league in Kobe. So suddenly he's going to lose his defensive prowess?
Do you know the height and wing span advantage Thabo has over CP3? Your acting like that's not goign to bother him at all.

N The Thunder had one of the best defensive PG's in the league, why in gods name would they put Thabo on PG's. That's as illogical as a statement anyone can make. I like how you guys post synergy numbers for our players when they are worse for your players and say Mismatch as easy as that :laugh:..
Too jokes


Deron on JR Smith - Deron ranked 107th in defensive PPP last season. Not bad. What were the only measures of defense that he ranked worse in? That would be 255th in isolation plays and 337th guarding spot-up shooters. Where do the Bulls put him? On JR Smith who ranked in the top 100 in both isolation scoring (58th!) and spot-up shooting (87th) where he shot 38% on 3's in spot-up players. That's his strength as a scorer.

So are you guys going to change up your offensive game plan now and let JR Smith handle the ball often now??


Al Horford on Shane Battier - Horford ranked 119th in defensive PPP last season. Where was his biggest weakness? It's his ability to defend spot-up shooters and it wasn't even close. He ranked 253rd in the league. Where do the Bulls put him? On our best spot-up shooter Shane Battier who ranked 25th in the NBA and ripped the net 139-329 threes at a blistering 42.2% from 3pt.

So let me get this straight. A 6'10 Al Horford is going to struggle to defend a 6'8 Shane Battier on spot up? The same Shane Battier who barely has a big lift in his jump shots anyways.


Kawhi Leonard on Carmelo Anthony - Leonard ranked 87th in defensive PPP last season. Where was his biggest weakness? By far it was his ability to guard the post ranking 239th in the league. Where do the Bulls put him? On the Knicks best post-up player Carmelo Anthony who ranked 33rd in the nba in post-up scoring last season.
You asked me if I watched the finals. I did and the numbers prove that Lebron did not abuse Kawhi in the post game. If Lebron did his numbers would've shown to be more efficient when guarded by Kawhi, but they weren't he was inefficient % wise against him.
Shouldn't someone who gets abused in the post allow high %'s especially to the best player in the league?




Tim Duncan on Tyson Chandler - Duncan ranked 226th in defensive PPP last season. His worst defense was defending spot-up shooting. Where was his 2nd worst defense? Defending the pick and roll allowing opposing roll players to shoot 55% on pick and roll. Where do the Bulls put him? On arguably the most efficient pick and roll big man in the NBA Tyson Chandler who shot 67% on pick and roll players and that was with one of the worst starting point guards in the NBA not Chris Paul.
Tyson Chandler can shoot now?
Can you post where you got the Chandler shooting 67% from on PnR's and where these attempts come from, because I'm looking at his shot charts and I don't see any signs of good jump shooting anywhere.
Unless your saying his PnR's lead to alley oops consistently?



Literally every matchup they've turned their players strengths into weaknesses that the Knicks can exploit on offense.
[/QUOTE]
No we absolutely have not


I agree with KnicksorBUst.


Even if his team wouldn't win in real life (it would I think) his explanations and argument merit votes. He's explained himself and his team well.

It's a crime if the Knicks don't move on.

N we haven't?? Thanks, why don't you join next time and see what kinda team you create. It's easier to build a team with just 2 top tier players and a scruff supporting cast, whereas building an above average balanced team is wayy harder and takes more skill.
We've refuted every point of theres and made great points ourselves, but thanks for downplaying us.

Eagles4Lyfe
08-28-2013, 03:04 PM
Wow were only up 1 :facepalm:

Eagles4Lyfe
08-28-2013, 03:19 PM
Also Knicks riddle me this. You guys keep hyping up CP3's defense.
But according to synergy last year he was
Ranked 107th overall as a defender allowing .83PPP
Ranked 158th on Iso's allowing .81PPP
Ranked 231st on spot up defense allowing 1.01 PPP.

Like Ebbs stated before and we pointed out Deron's efficiencies offensively these past playoffs and regular season. CP3 is not limiting him at all on anything.
Deron shot 40% from beyond the arc in the playoffs averaging about 6 a game. With how bad a spot up defender CP3 is and the length advantage Deron has.

Also Jr Smith is awful defensively.
Ranked 279th according to synergy giving up .9PPP
.95 PPP on Iso's ranking 285th
.89 PPP on PnR ball handling ranking 196th.

Like we pointed our before, our offense has been severely underrated throughout this matchup.

mightybosstone
08-28-2013, 03:41 PM
So I guess Lebron James should be a PG since he defended Tony Parker in the finals. You put your best defenders on the players you know they can guard. Thabo has proven he's a tough matchup for some of the best scorers in the league in Kobe. So suddenly he's going to lose his defensive prowess?Do you know the height and wing span advantage Thabo has over CP3? Your acting like that's not going to bother him at all.
Height and length alone do not make a great defensive player or mean a guy will necessarily give an offensive player problems. Speed is also extremely important, and I wouldn't be comfortable saying he's quick enough to keep up with Paul. He's also guarding a position he doesn't traditionally guard. Putting him on Smith would have made far more sense.


So are you guys going to change up your offensive game plan now and let JR Smith handle the ball often now??
He just said spot-up shooting is one of Smith's strengths, so you're reading way too much into the isolation plays. Will Smith get his opportunity in isolation attempts? Sure, especially when Melo and/or Paul are on the bench. But that doesn't mean he's going to have the ball in his hands on every offensive possession with the starters.


So let me get this straight. A 6'10 Al Horford is going to struggle to defend a 6'8 Shane Battier on spot up? The same Shane Battier who barely has a big lift in his jump shots anyways.
Again, height and length alone do not make a great defensive player or defensive matchup. The point of Battier sitting in the corners is that it forces whoever is defending him to stay with him in the corner. If Horford leaves Battier to help on a driving perimeter player, he's going to have to get back in time to bother Battier's shot. That takes a certain amount of athleticism and speed that I don't think Horford possesses.


You asked me if I watched the finals. I did and the numbers prove that Lebron did not abuse Kawhi in the post game. If Lebron did his numbers would've shown to be more efficient when guarded by Kawhi, but they weren't he was inefficient % wise against him. Shouldn't someone who gets abused in the post allow high %'s especially to the best player in the league?
One series against a completely different player is irrelevant.


Tyson Chandler can shoot now? Can you post where you got the Chandler shooting 67% from on PnR's and where these attempts come from, because I'm looking at his shot charts and I don't see any signs of good jump shooting anywhere.Unless your saying his PnR's lead to alley oops consistently
A "shot" and a "jumper" are not the same thing. Chandler excels in the pick and roll because he has great hands, he doesn't take dumb shots and he gets to the rim quickly. I don't care if the guy doesn't take a single shot outside of 5 feet if as long as that guy makes as many of his attempts as Chandler does. And if you need any assurance that a Paul to Chandler pick and roll would work, I can assure you there are hours worth of videos on the Youtube documenting that proof.


No we absolutely have not.
Nah... All you did was put a wing on a PG, a PG on a SG and waste one of your interior assets on a spot shooter who sits in the corner the majority of offensive possessions.


N we haven't?? Thanks, why don't you join next time and see what kinda team you create. It's easier to build a team with just 2 top tier players and a scruff supporting cast, whereas building an above average balanced team is wayy harder and takes more skill.
You REALLY don't want to go into this argument and the absolute cluster**** that was the aussie trade. And if you think getting Chris Paul to this team was easy, you no clue what you're talking about. KOB and I put hours after hours into those pitches, editing and re-editing them every step of the way. I can assure you it was every bit as hard and time consuming as all those trades you made, so don't question our effort or the ease with which we created our roster.

Eagles4Lyfe
08-28-2013, 03:45 PM
I wasn't downplaying you guys, I was just telling that guy its not as easy as it looks and to downplay the effort we've put into our write up just because he loves seeing upsets is a joke.
He's picked the lower seed in every match up even when it makes no sense.

But I'm done arguing, no ones reading em anyways waste of time

Eagles4Lyfe
08-28-2013, 03:46 PM
I believe you guys are up 1

mightybosstone
08-28-2013, 03:53 PM
Like Ebbs stated before and we pointed out Deron's efficiencies offensively these past playoffs and regular season. CP3 is not limiting him at all on anything. Deron shot 40% from beyond the arc in the playoffs averaging about 6 a game. With how bad a spot up defender CP3 is and the length advantage Deron has.
Remember those stats we posted highlighting Paul and Williams last four head-to-head games? Here's another stat which didn't get added. In those four matchups, Williams shot 19.2% from beyond the arc against Paul. With those kinds of numbers and considering Williams playmaking skills, I'd gladly welcome him taking 3-pointers all game.


Also Jr Smith is awful defensively.
Ranked 279th according to synergy giving up .9PPP
.95 PPP on Iso's ranking 285th
.89 PPP on PnR ball handling ranking 196th.
Great point. I'm really concerned about defending Thabo Sefolosha and his 11.4 USG%. I'm sure he'll go off for 20 every night. ;)

xxplayerxx23
08-28-2013, 04:23 PM
It's really really close. But I went Knicks. I think Paul-melo Wouk work amazing. Melo has a true secondary scorer with him. JR with a pg like Paul would thrive IMO. Good luck to both you Guys did a great job

Eagles4Lyfe
08-28-2013, 04:31 PM
Thanks for the explanation bro

greg_ory_2005
08-28-2013, 05:05 PM
I voted Bulls!

Shammyguy3
08-28-2013, 05:18 PM
The voting definitely signifies how close of a match up this is. And even though I voted Bulls, i want to congratulate the Knicks' trio of GMs on what they accomplished. And personally, I feel like the Knicks' write up was better and their counter arguments just as good (if not slightly better) than the Bulls' arguments.

I still just love the balance overall that the Bulls possess.

Ebbs
08-28-2013, 06:07 PM
I've literally come in to vote 5 times and keep changing my mind

BullsNumber1Fan
08-28-2013, 06:55 PM
I went Chicago. I just value defense more than offense (guess that has to do with the Bulls being all about defense since 2004) and Thabo/Kawhi/Horford/Duncan would be unreal defensively. Love Melo + CP3 together, but CP3 still hasn't been to even a conference finals yet and Melo has gotten out of the 1st round 2 out of 10 times. Maybe that changes together? Who knows. And I'm not a fan of Battier at all. Outside of game 7 of the finals, he was absolutely atrocious offensively even playing with the big 3. Don't think he should play more than 10-12 MPG on a title team anymore. And JR played bad in the playoffs as well. Say whatever you want about him being more efficient with CP3, but you still can't fully prove it.

In the end, love what the Knicks have done, but I value the Bulls defense more than the Knicks offense. Good luck to both teams.

Ebbs
08-28-2013, 08:44 PM
I wasn't downplaying you guys, I was just telling that guy its not as easy as it looks and to downplay the effort we've put into our write up just because he loves seeing upsets is a joke.
He's picked the lower seed in every match up even when it makes no sense.

But I'm done arguing, no ones reading em anyways waste of time

Not true I'm still reading eagles lol.

Shammyguy3
08-28-2013, 08:57 PM
Even though I have already voted, I'm reading as well

KnicksorBust
08-28-2013, 09:03 PM
I went Chicago. I just value defense more than offense (guess that has to do with the Bulls being all about defense since 2004) and Thabo/Kawhi/Horford/Duncan would be unreal defensively. Love Melo + CP3 together, but CP3 still hasn't been to even a conference finals yet and Melo has gotten out of the 1st round 2 out of 10 times. Maybe that changes together? Who knows. And I'm not a fan of Battier at all. Outside of game 7 of the finals, he was absolutely atrocious offensively even playing with the big 3. Don't think he should play more than 10-12 MPG on a title team anymore. And JR played bad in the playoffs as well. Say whatever you want about him being more efficient with CP3, but you still can't fully prove it.

In the end, love what the Knicks have done, but I value the Bulls defense more than the Knicks offense. Good luck to both teams.

Wish I was home so I could respond more fully but respect the explanation. Even though you like their defenders the Bulls have done a terrible job game-planning for this series. When it's a close series every little thing matters. They have their SG guarding my PG (even though he didn't guard PGs all season), their SG guarding my PG (again, even though I explain this in detail on the last page. Their SF is guarding my PF (even though he can't defend the post) and their PF is guarding my SF (even though he can't guard spot-up shoting). This strategy makes no sense and would cost them countless baskets that they can't afford to give up! We're better anyway and they are spotting us points.

Also, we're getting to a point where JR Smith is becoming underrated again. He was the Knicks 3rd most important player and 2nd leading scorer this season. He does what he does very well. He scores in bunches and can carry the pressure working with the 1st AND 2nd unit. People forget two things. #1 is that he wasn't 100% during the playoffs and #2 that he used to be VERY efficient in Denver. His TS% was in the high 50s and even hit +60%. That was when he played with real point guards like Andre Miller and Chauncey Billups (not with a bum like Felton). If he can play great with them (and Melo) on the Nuggets then he should thrive with Chris Paul. With the exception of LeBron, nobody else in the league knows how to elevate their teammates like Chris Paul. The great seasons of Melo-Chandler-JR would all be that much more deadly with an elite PG.

Ebbs
08-28-2013, 11:43 PM
I'm not so sure it's about CP3 bring selfish with a high usage as it is about would Melo and JR differ to him? As your teams clearly best off with him in charge.

Bruno
08-29-2013, 02:55 AM
While I am leaning towards the Knicks, there is a crazy amount of disrespect towards Deron Williams right now!

Lets not forget that D-Will is one of the best playoff performers ever for a PG! He also has constantly out-performed CP3 head-2-head when he was in his Utah Jazz days - Which he seems to be again.

Also the Knicks argument is based a lot off clutch play down the stretch, Deron was a pretty damn clutch player.

this is news to me.

PatsSoxKnicks
08-29-2013, 03:40 AM
I have to read the last 3 pages of arguments, still haven't decided yet. Don't want to decide at this late hour so someone send me a VM tomorrow to remind me to vote here. (I thought I put this matchup up at like 4 in the morning but it turns out it was 4 in the afternoon)

KnicksorBust
08-29-2013, 11:45 AM
I'm not so sure it's about CP3 bring selfish with a high usage as it is about would Melo and JR differ to him? As your teams clearly best off with him in charge.

At the end of games of course he's the point guard and he has the ball. The thing that especially you should realize is that having that extra spark is what gets you over the hump in these close series. That's why we wanted desperately to re-sign JR Smith because we didn't want to just be CP3 and Melo. JR would get plenty of shots early in the game and then his proven skills as a spot-up shooter (37% career 3pt) would be invaluable at the end of the game. It's guys like Paul-LeBron-Nash that transform teams into better passing units by their own unselfish play and then show that killer instinct in the 4th. The great thing about our duo is that Melo and CP3 that they can play together at the end of games. Like Pierce-KG, Kobe-Gasol, LeBron-Wade. Melo was amazingly effective in pick and rolls and would only improve playing with Paul. If they switch, Paul's either got the drive or Melo can back Thabo right down under the basket and drop it in. Meanwhile they won't have ballside help because their 250 pound PF/C has been strategically (they "swerved" us as they put it) placed in the corner 22 feet from the basket guarding a spot-up shooter.

Plus Chris Paul was arguably the best clutch player in the NBA last season. He was 3rd in scoring per 48 (52ppg) while shooting a higher fg% (49.2%) than ANYONE else in the top 10. He was also the BEST at drawing fouls and getting to the free throw line in clutch situations:

http://www.82games.com/1213/CSORT9.HTM

Our players have built in chemistry from playing together, tons more playmaking ability, and the Bulls terrible strategy for mismatches would clearly cost them this series. As Bruno put it, the Knicks have the two biggest impact players in the series and the best clutch player by far. We were down 9-1 and have crawled our way back. With 5 hours left we're fighting till the end.

roshan3ai
08-29-2013, 01:26 PM
Oh boy, we are all tied up with the 100 vote rule. 24-24.

Eagles4Lyfe
08-29-2013, 01:27 PM
Oh boy, we are all tied up with the 100 vote rule. 24-24.

Nope were up 2.
One guy accidentally voted for em when he wanted to vote for us.

Lucky.
08-29-2013, 01:34 PM
Oh boy, we are all tied up with the 100 vote rule. 24-24.

Official count is 25-23

roshan3ai
08-29-2013, 01:36 PM
Ah true, didn't see that. My mistake. Close matchup, debate more. Class is boring

roshan3ai
08-29-2013, 01:54 PM
While I am leaning towards the Knicks, there is a crazy amount of disrespect towards Deron Williams right now!

Lets not forget that D-Will is one of the best playoff performers ever for a PG! He also has constantly out-performed CP3 head-2-head when he was in his Utah Jazz days - Which he seems to be again.

Also the Knicks argument is based a lot off clutch play down the stretch, Deron was a pretty damn clutch player.

Greet, how can you say Deron Wiliams is clutch? Heís atrocious in the clutch. 27% from the field and 18% from 3. Thatís absolutely atrocious..

KnicksorBust
08-29-2013, 02:00 PM
Official count is 25-23

3 votes in 3 hours. Let's go.

KnicksorBust
08-29-2013, 02:05 PM
Still 2 guys that I know have been reading the whole damn thread yet to vote. Good to see the arguments aren't going ignored because the more we go back and forth the more clear it is that the Knicks would pull out the win.

KnicksorBust
08-29-2013, 02:09 PM
What's pretty big to me is the fact that the Bulls are literally mis-using EVERY SINGLE PLAYER of theirs in their defenses matchups Greet.

Thabo Sefolosha on CP3 - Thabo who ranked 342nd in defensive PPP per Synergy last season will be guarding a position that according to 82games he didn't even guard. The Thunder have good defensive PGs which is why Thabo was always used on perimeter players. Now the Bulls are forcing him to put pressure on the best PG in the NBA and guard pick and rolls all game. Mismatch

Deron on JR Smith - Deron ranked 107th in defensive PPP last season. Not bad. What were the only measures of defense that he ranked worse in? That would be 255th in isolation plays and 337th guarding spot-up shooters. Where do the Bulls put him? On JR Smith who ranked in the top 100 in both isolation scoring (58th!) and spot-up shooting (87th) where he shot 38% on 3's in spot-up players. That's his strength as a scorer.

Al Horford on Shane Battier - Horford ranked 119th in defensive PPP last season. Where was his biggest weakness? It's his ability to defend spot-up shooters and it wasn't even close. He ranked 253rd in the league. Where do the Bulls put him? On our best spot-up shooter Shane Battier who ranked 25th in the NBA and ripped the net 139-329 threes at a blistering 42.2% from 3pt.

Kawhi Leonard on Carmelo Anthony - Leonard ranked 87th in defensive PPP last season. Where was his biggest weakness? By far it was his ability to guard the post ranking 239th in the league. Where do the Bulls put him? On the Knicks best post-up player Carmelo Anthony who ranked 33rd in the nba in post-up scoring last season.

Tim Duncan on Tyson Chandler - Duncan ranked 226th in defensive PPP last season. His worst defense was defending spot-up shooting. Where was his 2nd worst defense? Defending the pick and roll allowing opposing roll players to shoot 55% on pick and roll. Where do the Bulls put him? On arguably the most efficient pick and roll big man in the NBA Tyson Chandler who shot 67% on pick and roll players and that was with one of the worst starting point guards in the NBA not Chris Paul.

Literally every matchup they've turned their players strengths into weaknesses that the Knicks can exploit on offense.

For anyone who doesn't have time to read through the whole thread.

Ebbs
08-29-2013, 02:39 PM
I've been debating for literally 2 days I feel.

I was leaning bulls and Knicks at various points through these pages.

Honestly one of the best matchups I've seen in awhile. Definitely the best second round matchup in a mock I can remember. Congrats to both teams for excellent write ups and teams.

I could give reasoning to vote for either team. In the end though I think the Bulls would play better together as a unit. I think that the teams roles and 1-5 are clearer and more balanced. Well the Bulls might get got out of position with some of there weird matchup choices I think in the end there balanced attack and solid team defense would overcome the Knicks duo and surrounding role players.

KnicksorBust
08-29-2013, 02:54 PM
Damn that's a dagger. 3 vote lead with 2 hours left in the middle of the afternoon on a Thursday.

I just don't buy that they'd play better together when my team has TONS of experience from actually being on the same teams in the past. We already have a built in chemistry together and have proven to win games and gold ****ing medals. Only Leonard and Duncan have even played together before.

tredigs
08-29-2013, 03:17 PM
I'm laughing looking at the names on the vote tally. Even mock drafts aren't immune to homerism apparently.

Eagles4Lyfe
08-29-2013, 03:20 PM
I'm laughing looking at the names on the vote tally. Even mock drafts aren't immune to homerism apparently.

Yup, exactly why we stopped arguing.
Glad your back doe :)...Would like to hear your thought process

KnicksorBust
08-29-2013, 03:24 PM
I'm laughing looking at the names on the vote tally. Even mock drafts aren't immune to homerism apparently.

Goes both ways. Which is ironic because the Bulls have literally 0 returning players.

Come on tredigs get in on the fun. Thoughts on CP3-Melo?

Guppyfighter
08-29-2013, 03:25 PM
It's an absolute travesty the Knicks aren't advancing.

chi-townlove1
08-29-2013, 03:26 PM
I'm on my phone so I can't vote but I would like to say great job from both teams but I am going to have to go with the Knicks on this one, so if a mod can get that for me. Thanks guys

Eagles4Lyfe
08-29-2013, 03:38 PM
Who the hell just messed with the poll and corrected ****?

It was 28-25 for us, why did we get stripped of a vote?

Hawkeye15
08-29-2013, 03:41 PM
I changed my vote after reading the write ups.

Your strategies are insane Bulls GM's. They would not work.

Ebbs
08-29-2013, 03:42 PM
I'm pretty sure you can't do that btw.

Bruno
08-29-2013, 03:43 PM
I'm on my phone so I can't vote but I would like to say great job from both teams but I am going to have to go with the Knicks on this one, so if a mod can get that for me. Thanks guys


I changed my vote after reading the write ups.

Your strategies are insane Bulls GM's. They would not work.

with these two claims are we now at an official tie?

Hawkeye15
08-29-2013, 03:43 PM
I'm on my phone so I can't vote but I would like to say great job from both teams but I am going to have to go with the Knicks on this one, so if a mod can get that for me. Thanks guys

your vote was added.

Eagles4Lyfe
08-29-2013, 03:44 PM
wtf is happenning

Bruno
08-29-2013, 03:44 PM
I'm pretty sure you can't do that btw.

is it some where in the official rules?

if another poster is allowed to say "I accidentally voted for the wrong team" and can change his vote then why can't Hawk?

Hawkeye15
08-29-2013, 03:44 PM
with these two claims are we now at an official tie?

I still show Chicago up 1 vote. It was a 3 vote gap when I changed mine, and added the user vote

Bruno
08-29-2013, 03:45 PM
regardless of what happens- this has been the single most exciting redraft thread ive ever seen, and one of the most competitive match ups ever. congrats to both sides.

Hawkeye15
08-29-2013, 03:45 PM
I'm pretty sure you can't do that btw.

sure you can. If a user would like their vote changed, we honor that. At least as far as I know.

Killerjug
08-29-2013, 03:45 PM
is it some where in the official rules?

if another poster is allowed to say "I accidentally voted for the wrong team" and can change his vote then why can't Hawk?

a misclick and changing your vote are two different things

Bruno
08-29-2013, 03:46 PM
I still show Chicago up 1 vote. It was a 3 vote gap when I changed mine, and added the user vote

awesome, is voting over? I can't tell because I've already voted?

Eagles4Lyfe
08-29-2013, 03:46 PM
is it some where in the official rules?

if another poster is allowed to say "I accidentally voted for the wrong team" and can change his vote then why can't Hawk?

That's because they clicked a wrong option.
But you can't vote then come back a day later and say I change my vote. You should've done that in the first place.
Anyone can come change their vote then official votes are official votes unless you clicked wrong option

Raps18-19 Champ
08-29-2013, 03:47 PM
I'm pretty sure you can't do that btw.

That's been allowed before.

Eagles4Lyfe
08-29-2013, 03:47 PM
sure you can. If a user would like their vote changed, we honor that. At least as far as I know.

No you can't they didn't allow that 2 redrafts ago when that big problem happened where people got caught cheating.
When you vote for a president and send in your ballot do you go back to the polls 2 hours later seeing the guy you chose is losing and change your vote?

That's dumb you shouldn't have done that in the first place

Lucky.
08-29-2013, 03:47 PM
is it some where in the official rules?

if another poster is allowed to say "I accidentally voted for the wrong team" and can change his vote then why can't Hawk?

It's different. Silent didn't mean to pick the Knicks, while Hawkeye voted for us for most of the thread being up before changing an hour before the poll closes.

I won't comment, as I don't know.

KnicksorBust
08-29-2013, 03:48 PM
Goes till 4:41pm ET Bruno.

Bruno
08-29-2013, 03:48 PM
a misclick and changing your vote are two different things

eh, i'd disagree because their results at their ultimate conclusion are the same. at the end of the day its still a mod going into the poll and changing a vote.

but the rules are the rules- and i am ignorant to them (is there an official rule on this?). i dont think there's anything wrong with somebody saying their changing their vote if other people are allowed to do it. for me- the reasoning behind the vote change request is irrelevant.

Hawkeye15
08-29-2013, 03:50 PM
It's different. Silent didn't mean to pick the Knicks, while Hawkeye voted for us for most of the thread being up before changing an hour before the poll closes.

I won't comment, as I don't know.

I finally read the write ups. While if properly coached, I think the Bulls win, the strategies of the GM's for the Bulls are messing up left and right to me. So I changed the vote.

Bruno
08-29-2013, 03:53 PM
No you can't they didn't allow that 2 redrafts ago when that big problem happened where people got caught cheating.
When you vote for a president and send in your ballot do you go back to the polls 2 hours later seeing the guy you chose is losing and change your vote?

That's dumb you shouldn't have done that in the first place

i dont like your example. the same logic applies to the guy who accidentally votes for the wrong guy- he doesn't get to just go change his vote.

you're totally justified to not like it. but is it against the rules?


It's different. Silent didn't mean to pick the Knicks, while Hawkeye voted for us for most of the thread being up before changing an hour before the poll closes.

I won't comment, as I don't know.

eh, well I never even saw Hawk comment or argue for either side in the posting (you guys probably already benefited from his voting for you because of his influence on the forum). IMO (im not a rule maker just a dude with an opinion) people should be able to alter their votes throughout the duration of the polling. I mean- isn't that the point of the two sides battling throughout the thread- to convince other posters that they're wrong in order to sway their votes?

i understand that it might be frustrating but to say that its an illegal move (unless otherwise stated in the rules that I am ignorant to) is a bit much, imo.


Goes till 4:41pm ET Bruno.

cool, thanks.

Hawkeye15
08-29-2013, 03:54 PM
No you can't they didn't allow that 2 redrafts ago when that big problem happened where people got caught cheating.
When you vote for a president and send in your ballot do you go back to the polls 2 hours later seeing the guy you chose is losing and change your vote?

That's dumb you shouldn't have done that in the first place

I came back in and read the write ups. As far as I understand, changing your vote is allowed. If it is not, that needs to be listed in the mock draft rules going forward.

KnicksorBust
08-29-2013, 03:57 PM
i dont like your example. the same logic applies to the guy who accidentally votes for the wrong guy- he doesn't get to just go change his vote.

you're totally justified to not like it. but is it against the rules?



eh, well I never even saw Hawk comment or argue for either side in the posting (you guys probably already benefited from his voting for you because of his influence on the forum). IMO (im not a rule maker just a dude with an opinion) people should be able to alter their votes throughout the duration of the polling. I mean- isn't that the point of the two sides battling throughout the thread- to convince other posters that they're wrong in order to sway their votes?

i understand that it might be frustrating but to say that its an illegal move (unless otherwise stated in the rules that I am ignorant to) is a bit much, imo.



cool, thanks.

Now if only your friends who liked the Knicks better all had PSD... :laugh:

Lucky.
08-29-2013, 03:58 PM
26-25 Knicks up one is the official vote.

Edit: 26-26

jericho
08-29-2013, 03:59 PM
Chicago is just way to big. Knicks will get destroyed on the rebounds department

Eagles4Lyfe
08-29-2013, 04:01 PM
This is soo frigen wack, I don't even know what to say

Hawkeye15
08-29-2013, 04:02 PM
Chicago is just way to big. Knicks will get destroyed on the rebounds department

not when they are using Horford as a perimeter defender..

Eagles4Lyfe
08-29-2013, 04:02 PM
Chicago is just way to big. Knicks will get destroyed on the rebounds department

Thank you finally someone who sees this.

Eagles4Lyfe
08-29-2013, 04:03 PM
not when they are using Horford as a perimeter defender..

You guys are nuts.
When there is a stretch 4 in the game, Horford would be on the damn perimeter anyways.
Its the same damn logic. If Battier was some awesome penetrator or something then maybe you have a really good case. But he's not.
So if they had Melo at SF and say Ryan Anderson or Bargnani as their 4, we should not make Horford defend him?

Your smarter than that

KnicksorBust
08-29-2013, 04:04 PM
not when they are using Horford as a perimeter defender..


Thank you finally someone who sees this.

Your post fits more appropriately after Hawkeye's.

Eagles4Lyfe
08-29-2013, 04:06 PM
Your post fits more appropriately after Hawkeye's.

Okay

Eagles4Lyfe
08-29-2013, 04:07 PM
Why the hell would we put a worse defender on Melo, when we have a guy capable of defending him on the roster and has proven to make him inefficient from the small sample size of the games they've played each other.

Ebbs
08-29-2013, 04:10 PM
Honestly whoever Saddler, Bulls, or Knicks makes finals I'm stoked everyone left cares the attention to detail and will to win haven't been this high in a while

Eagles4Lyfe
08-29-2013, 04:15 PM
....

Bruno
08-29-2013, 04:17 PM
You guys are nuts.
When there is a stretch 4 in the game, Horford would be on the damn perimeter anyways.
Its the same damn logic. If Battier was some awesome penetrator or something then maybe you have a really good case. But he's not.
So if they had Melo at SF and say Ryan Anderson or Bargnani as their 4, we should not make Horford defend him?

Your smarter than that

but isn't it okay for Horford to be guarding stretch fours such as Bargs and Anderson because he has the foot speed to body them up if they take it to the floor? Melo is much faster with his first step than those guys- leaving Horford compromised off their dribble. Or it would force you guys to double Melo during that match up when he puts it on the floor (where Paul/Smith/Battier will be waiting on the perimeter, depending on who gets doubled off- Paul only in emergency breakdowns obviously); as well as lobs to Chandler if it's Duncan as anchor providing support in the post.

KnicksorBust
08-29-2013, 04:18 PM
What's the vote?

KnicksorBust
08-29-2013, 04:19 PM
but isn't it okay for Horford to be guarding stretch fours such as Bargs and Anderson because he has the foot speed to body them up if they take it to the floor? Melo is much faster with his first step than those guys- leaving Horford compromised off their dribble. Or it would force you guys to double Melo during that match up when he puts it on the floor (where Paul/Smith/Battier will be waiting on the perimeter, depending on who gets doubled off- Paul only in emergency breakdowns obviously); as well as lobs to Chandler if it's Duncan as anchor providing support in the post.

Yup. I don't see why it's so hard to understand.

Bruno
08-29-2013, 04:19 PM
Honestly whoever Saddler, Bulls, or Knicks makes finals I'm stoked everyone left cares the attention to detail and will to win haven't been this high in a while

x2

TrueFan420
08-29-2013, 04:20 PM
I can't believe the Knicks are gaining ground on the bulls. The bulls are a much more balanced team that plays very good d and has home court advantage

Hawkeye15
08-29-2013, 04:20 PM
You guys are nuts.
When there is a stretch 4 in the game, Horford would be on the damn perimeter anyways.
Its the same damn logic. If Battier was some awesome penetrator or something then maybe you have a really good case. But he's not.
So if they had Melo at SF and say Ryan Anderson or Bargnani as their 4, we should not make Horford defend him?

Your smarter than that

In this matchup, you don't want Horford trying to stick with Melo, who will pound him off the dribble. And by putting Thabo on Paul, you are creating a huge problem for yourself because Paul will easily get into the paint, meaning defense collapses, they kill you if that happens.

Eagles4Lyfe
08-29-2013, 04:20 PM
but isn't it okay for Horford to be guarding stretch fours such as Bargs and Anderson because he has the foot speed to body them up if they take it to the floor? Melo is much faster with his first step than those guys- leaving Horford compromised off their dribble. Or it would force you guys to double Melo during that match up when he puts it on the floor (where Paul/Smith/Battier will be waiting on the perimeter, depending on who gets doubled off- Paul only in emergency breakdowns obviously); as well as lobs to Chandler if it's Duncan as anchor providing support in the post.

Wth are you talking about?
Hawkeye said he hated Horford on Battier. Are you telling me Battier can put it on the floor and Horford doesn't have foot speed to keep up with him?

He mentioned Horford will be on perimeter. Guys like Ryan Anderson make their living on the outside, so Horford would be on the perimeter anyways when guarding him.

I rather have Kawhi on Melo than Horford for the reasons we've provided through the thread.

I don't understand why people don't understand them listing Melo at PF is just a positional set, doesn't have much bearing on who's defending them.

Lucky.
08-29-2013, 04:21 PM
but isn't it okay for Horford to be guarding stretch fours such as Bargs and Anderson because he has the foot speed to body them up if they take it to the floor? Melo is much faster with his first step than those guys- leaving Horford compromised off their dribble. Or it would force you guys to double Melo during that match up when he puts it on the floor (where Paul/Smith/Battier will be waiting on the perimeter, depending on who gets doubled off- Paul only in emergency breakdowns obviously); as well as lobs to Chandler if it's Duncan as anchor providing support in the post.

We have Horford on Battier for exactly that reason. We need Horford guarding one of Anthony or Battier, we'd much rather have it be Battier considering Anthony would blow right by him. When we put him on battier, that's not the case. So pretty much, if someone has a stretch four, no matter what, the opposing team has nothing to guard them?


What's the vote?

26-26

Bruno
08-29-2013, 04:22 PM
Yup. I don't see why it's so hard to understand.

I understand what Eagles is saying in regards to Horford having the foot speed and athleticism to body up pretty much every stretch four in the game on the perimeter. but were talking about melo. I really like Melos game at the four, I think that's where he belongs in todays NBA given his size and skillset.

Eagles4Lyfe
08-29-2013, 04:22 PM
In this matchup, you don't want Horford trying to stick with Melo, who will pound him off the dribble. And by putting Thabo on Paul, you are creating a huge problem for yourself because Paul will easily get into the paint, meaning defense collapses, they kill you if that happens.

Horford ISN'T ON Melo.
Kawhi is
Where did you read horford on Melo.
Horfords on Battier man

TrueFan420
08-29-2013, 04:23 PM
Yup. I don't see why it's so hard to understand.

It goes both ways tho and melo would get abused in the post by horford or Duncan.

Eagles4Lyfe
08-29-2013, 04:24 PM
Hawkeye you read the wrong write up. The knicks assumed we'd put Horford on Melo, which we won't and didn't even mention in ours.

We have one of the best defending SF's in the league, why would we not put him on Melo?

KnicksorBust
08-29-2013, 04:25 PM
26-26

20 minutes left. Tie-vote. Gotta love it. Knicks 1 vote away from the comeback!!!!!! Where's a smart poster when you need them?

KnicksorBust
08-29-2013, 04:28 PM
It goes both ways tho and melo would get abused in the post by horford or Duncan.

That's just wrong. He played the 4 all-season for the Knicks and outplayed PF's all season. He guarded the post 173 this past season and only allowed opponents to shoot 40-113 ranking him 16th best in the NBA. You forget he has a big strong frame. There were forced turnovers on 25% of possessions that he guarded in the post. That's astronomical. Because he's got the quick hands and feet to stay in front of bigs. He outplayed opposing PF's by a PER of over double digit points.

Killerjug
08-29-2013, 04:30 PM
so then why are his defensive numbers overall poor?

Bruno
08-29-2013, 04:30 PM
Wth are you talking about?
Hawkeye said he hated Horford on Battier. Are you telling me Battier can put it on the floor and Horford doesn't have foot speed to keep up with him?

He mentioned Horford will be on perimeter. Guys like Ryan Anderson make their living on the outside, so Horford would be on the perimeter anyways when guarding him.

I rather have Kawhi on Melo than Horford for the reasons we've provided through the thread.

I don't understand why people don't understand them listing Melo at PF is just a positional set, doesn't have much bearing on who's defending them.

did he? my bad i thought i read through the whole thread.

I like Leonard on Melo a lot more, but you guys have problems when Chris Paul and Carmleo Anthony start to operate pick and roll (independently w/ others and together). Paul and Anthony will have no problem operating pick and rolls with Smith/Battier/Chandler and thats when your team will be out of position defensively. I understand that Leonard and Thabo are great and versatile defenders but Williams and Horford will get targeted as mismatches on the switches. And you can't cheat because Smith and Battier will bust you up from three.

Lucky.
08-29-2013, 04:31 PM
That's just wrong. He played the 4 all-season for the Knicks and outplayed PF's all season. He guarded the post 173 this past season and only allowed opponents to shoot 40-113 ranking him 16th best in the NBA. You forget he has a big strong frame. There were forced turnovers on 25% of possessions that he guarded in the post. That's astronomical. Because he's got the quick hands and feet to stay in front of bigs. He outplayed opposing PF's by a PER of over double digit points.

He's good in the post, that's great. What about the other three defensive categories that we have proved (statistically) that he's terrible in? You have yet to comment on that, unless I missed it. If that's the case, my apologies.

Bruno
08-29-2013, 04:33 PM
Hawkeye you read the wrong write up. The knicks assumed we'd put Horford on Melo, which we won't and didn't even mention in ours.

We have one of the best defending SF's in the league, why would we not put him on Melo?

fair point- i'm just worried about those switches on the pick and roll for Chicago.

KnicksorBust
08-29-2013, 04:33 PM
Exactly. We can spread them out with our elite shooters and we have easily one of the most disruptive offensive rebounders in the game in Tyson Chandler who has perfected that tip-out for extra possessions. We spread them out run PnR and let Paul go to work on Thabo. He'd be in foul trouble in 7 minutes guarding a PG for the first time all season.

Lucky.
08-29-2013, 04:39 PM
Exactly. We can spread them out with our elite shooters and we have easily one of the most disruptive offensive rebounders in the game in Tyson Chandler who has perfected that tip-out for extra possessions. We spread them out and let Paul go to work on Thabo. He'd be in foul trouble in 7 minutes guarding a PG for the first time all season.

A great rebounder yet he's been out rebounded by (2.8) Tim Duncan and Al Horford (3.7) in career H2H games? And Chandler is coming off a playoff run in which he averaged just 7.3 rebounds per game.

Eagles4Lyfe
08-29-2013, 04:42 PM
Polls closed
Bulls advance :)

Lucky.
08-29-2013, 04:45 PM
Final vote count: 26-26

Bruno
08-29-2013, 04:45 PM
Now if only your friends who liked the Knicks better all had PSD... :laugh:

i've tried to get them in on PSD in the past. were big on fantasy and doing all time mock drafts like they did on TNT that one time.

Ebbs
08-29-2013, 04:50 PM
What's count?

Killerjug
08-29-2013, 04:50 PM
can we count tredigs imaginary vote for us :)

Eagles4Lyfe
08-29-2013, 04:51 PM
Final vote count: 26-26

Huh I thought were up by 1.
Isn't that what the whole Hawkeye adjusting the poll is. Got rid of the under 100 posts and switched Silents vote to our team and added that chicago guys vote to the Knicks poll
They said they did all the changes.

roshan3ai
08-29-2013, 05:01 PM
Woah lots went on in the last hour or so. Good stuff.


But kinda important question here, who won? :laugh2:

Bruno
08-29-2013, 05:02 PM
good game everybody.

Ebbs
08-29-2013, 05:05 PM
The Whole lakers roster was sitting court side for game 7. Thoroughly entertained

Hawkeye15
08-29-2013, 05:07 PM
Wth are you talking about?
Hawkeye said he hated Horford on Battier. Are you telling me Battier can put it on the floor and Horford doesn't have foot speed to keep up with him?

He mentioned Horford will be on perimeter. Guys like Ryan Anderson make their living on the outside, so Horford would be on the perimeter anyways when guarding him.

I rather have Kawhi on Melo than Horford for the reasons we've provided through the thread.

I don't understand why people don't understand them listing Melo at PF is just a positional set, doesn't have much bearing on who's defending them.

nope. I said using Horford to guard a perimeter player is ridiculous in this matchup, and you will be exposed if you try it.

Hawkeye15
08-29-2013, 05:09 PM
Huh I thought were up by 1.
Isn't that what the whole Hawkeye adjusting the poll is. Got rid of the under 100 posts and switched Silents vote to our team and added that chicago guys vote to the Knicks poll
They said they did all the changes.

yep, when I changed my vote, the gap was 3 before I did it. Added the other users vote, it was still Bulls by 1. Each team got another vote.

Bulls win by 1.

Eagles4Lyfe
08-29-2013, 05:10 PM
Woah lots went on in the last hour or so. Good stuff.


But kinda important question here, who won? :laugh2:
I think we squeaked it out by 1 from what transpired in the last hour.
We were up 3 after Ebbs vote.
Hawkeyes took out his vote making us up by 2 only and his vote for Knicks meant they were up 1.
Then Chitowns vote for Knicks tied things up.

Jerichos last vote for us put us up 1 and gave us the win.
Unless someone else voted in that time, which I don't see any new names then I should be right.


good game everybody.
I'm right, in the changes you guys made in the polls right?

Eagles4Lyfe
08-29-2013, 05:11 PM
yep, when I changed my vote, the gap was 3 before I did it. Added the other users vote, it was still Bulls by 1. Each team got another vote.

Bulls win by 1.

Phew, but me and you still have to have a discussion on this.
Are you sure you read the right write up?

TrueFan420
08-29-2013, 05:13 PM
That's just wrong. He played the 4 all-season for the Knicks and outplayed PF's all season. He guarded the post 173 this past season and only allowed opponents to shoot 40-113 ranking him 16th best in the NBA. You forget he has a big strong frame. There were forced turnovers on 25% of possessions that he guarded in the post. That's astronomical. Because he's got the quick hands and feet to stay in front of bigs. He outplayed opposing PF's by a PER of over double digit points.
There's a lot of shat 4's in the league what's his head to head against Duncan and horford?

roshan3ai
08-29-2013, 05:13 PM
Y'all didn't account for the voters with less than 100 posts...........

KnicksorBust
08-29-2013, 05:14 PM
With the 100 post rule you guys lose 2 votes. JIBM and Dusty98.

roshan3ai
08-29-2013, 05:17 PM
With the 100 post rule you guys lose 2 votes. JIBM and Dusty98.


And Bloomis. But then there's that one guy who changed his vote. So it's 26-26