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Kushed
08-24-2013, 07:58 PM
Thoughts?

Bird comes to mind right away.

Chronz
08-24-2013, 09:43 PM
Do Pointforwards count or just guys who ran the offense as a secondary playmakers ala Larry Bird?

Like Paul Pressey was a SF but for all intents and purposes, he was basically his teams PG.
Bird played with guys who would run the offense but would rack up assists because he was such a great passer and a quick thinker.

Prolly doesn't matter, its really hard to top Bird anyways, for the sake of the discussion you should prolly leave him out.

TheMightyHumph
08-24-2013, 09:52 PM
Do Pointforwards count or just guys who ran the offense as a secondary playmakers ala Larry Bird?

Like Paul Pressey was a SF but for all intents and purposes, he was basically his teams PG.
Bird played with guys who would run the offense but would rack up assists because he was such a great passer and a quick thinker.

Prolly doesn't matter, its really hard to top Bird anyways, for the sake of the discussion you should prolly leave him out.

Tough one

Wilt led the league in assists one season.

Johnny Johnson and Paul Pressey were Point SFs. Bird, of course. Bill Walton, Bill Russell, Micheal Ray, Bob Lanier, Chris Webber.

I'm sure there are some I missed

UPRock
08-24-2013, 09:58 PM
Where's Bron?

jerellh528
08-24-2013, 10:39 PM
Pau's got some real passing skill.
In a nutshell http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aYFniAWMhU

Triple_Ocho
08-24-2013, 10:49 PM
Sabonis was one of the best passing big men I have ever seen

Tony_Starks
08-24-2013, 11:02 PM
Vlade and C-Webb. Lamar Odom when he felt like it.

jerellh528
08-24-2013, 11:06 PM
Vlade and C-Webb. Lamar Odom when he felt like it.

yeahhh vlade! kinda forgot about his passing ability. odom is overrated as a passer i feel, with his skillset.

bagwell368
08-24-2013, 11:07 PM
Grant Hill when he was still with it... Webber. Neither a match for Bird.

Chronz
08-24-2013, 11:07 PM
Tough one

Wilt led the league in assists one season.

Johnny Johnson and Paul Pressey were Point SFs. Bird, of course. Bill Walton, Bill Russell, Michael Ray, Bob Lanier, Chris Webber.

I'm sure there are some I missed

Do you feel like bigmen typically need a system tailored around their passing to truly display it, moreso than perimeter guys?

Like did you have any idea that Brad Miller was such a great passer before Adelmans Princeton O? I didn't have league pass back then but I saw quite abit of Indiana and didn't make the connection. I didn't pay attention to stats as much back then either, so its possible I should have seen his relatively high assists as a sign of the potential. But still, when he got to Sacto, it was an entirely different level of passing efficiency. You mentioned Wilt, and even he needed to be in the triangle to really flourish.

Chronz
08-24-2013, 11:08 PM
yeahhh vlade! kinda forgot about his passing ability. odom is overrated as a passer i feel, with his skillset.

I often wonder this myself, theres abit of a distinction between passing ability, and playmaking ability. If u know what I mean

BenFrank
08-24-2013, 11:13 PM
How bout this guy

Pistol Pete https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVnJeKX5OeY

My Other choices would be Pippen, LBJ

MTar786
08-24-2013, 11:19 PM
sg penny/wade
sf bird/lebron/pippen
pf webber/kg/pau/odom
c sabonis/divac

ofcourse my list could be better. this is off the top of my head

jerellh528
08-24-2013, 11:27 PM
I often wonder this myself, theres abit of a distinction between passing ability, and playmaking ability. If u know what I mean
Oh I definitely think there's a distinction. For example since Lebron is well known and watched a lot ill use him. Phenomenal playmaker, one of the best ever but I think that tends too overrate his passing abilities.

jericho
08-24-2013, 11:40 PM
Do Pointforwards count or just guys who ran the offense as a secondary playmakers ala Larry Bird?

Like Paul Pressey was a SF but for all intents and purposes, he was basically his teams PG.
Bird played with guys who would run the offense but would rack up assists because he was such a great passer and a quick thinker.

Prolly doesn't matter, its really hard to top Bird anyways, for the sake of the discussion you should prolly leave him out.

Tough one

Wilt led the league in assists one season.

Johnny Johnson and Paul Pressey were Point SFs. Bird, of course. Bill Walton, Bill Russell, Michael Ray, Bob Lanier, Chris Webber.

I'm sure there are some I missed

From what I read Wilt forced that he got mad at his teammates if they didn't make a basket and messed up his assist or if they passed it to another guy or took to long to take the shot. So no I wouldn't put Wilt there

pd7631
08-25-2013, 12:03 AM
Allen Iverson

ThuglifeJ
08-25-2013, 12:35 AM
Bird. Bird bird bird bird bird.


Kobe and Vince Carter have made some of the nicest passes too for scorers. Not high in assists, but in terms of ability


Bird easily though.

bearadonisdna
08-25-2013, 01:22 AM
Lebron was my frst thought, but he plays too much pg to be considered.

TheMightyHumph
08-25-2013, 01:29 AM
Allen Iverson

You're a funny person

TheMightyHumph
08-25-2013, 01:31 AM
From what I read Wilt forced that he got mad at his teammates if they didn't make a basket and messed up his assist or if they passed it to another guy or took to long to take the shot. So no I wouldn't put Wilt there

Wilt will be so disappointed

TheMightyHumph
08-25-2013, 01:40 AM
Do you feel like bigmen typically need a system tailored around their passing to truly display it, moreso than perimeter guys?

Like did you have any idea that Brad Miller was such a great passer before Adelmans Princeton O? I didn't have league pass back then but I saw quite abit of Indiana and didn't make the connection. I didn't pay attention to stats as much back then either, so its possible I should have seen his relatively high assists as a sign of the potential. But still, when he got to Sacto, it was an entirely different level of passing efficiency. You mentioned Wilt, and even he needed to be in the triangle to really flourish.

Brad was a very good passing Center, as was Alvin Adams.

But guys like Wilt and Walton had a special ability, as they were they both ran the offense.

LBJ6
08-25-2013, 05:30 AM
Kobe.... Ooops!

BKLYNpigeon
08-25-2013, 07:03 AM
Lebron James.

asandhu23
08-25-2013, 07:21 AM
From what I read Wilt forced that he got mad at his teammates if they didn't make a basket and messed up his assist or if they passed it to another guy or took to long to take the shot. So no I wouldn't put Wilt there

False. it was a coaching decision by Alex Hannum.

asandhu23
08-25-2013, 07:33 AM
Kareem and Russell were great passers. Wes Unseld as well.

ewing
08-25-2013, 08:33 AM
Bird of course is the greatest. Walton and Sabonis are other greats. Boris Diaw is someone will likely not get mention but is a fantastic passer. So is AK47 and Brad Dougherty back in the day

rockbottom2010
08-25-2013, 08:55 AM
Is it based on assist/game or and 1 type plays?

Minimal
08-25-2013, 09:07 AM
LeBron /Thread

JayW_1023
08-25-2013, 09:13 AM
Larry Legend

birdmann5
08-25-2013, 09:47 AM
Duncan, Pau, and Malone.

tr3ymill3r
08-25-2013, 09:54 AM
LeBron, Vlade, CWebb, Sabonis, Yao, Pippen.

PhillyFaninLA
08-25-2013, 10:11 AM
You're a funny person

An you don't know your players....serisouly your naive or trolling.

ManningToTyree
08-25-2013, 10:28 AM
Has to be lebron

mike_noodles
08-25-2013, 10:39 AM
sg penny/wade
sf bird/lebron/pippen
pf webber/kg/pau/odom
c sabonis/divac

ofcourse my list could be better. this is off the top of my head

Penny was a PG.

mike_noodles
08-25-2013, 10:40 AM
Has to be lebron

Haha, no it doesn't. For one, he has played the PG position quite a bit as pointed out already in this thread and Bird was the best non PG passer.

IndyRealist
08-25-2013, 10:46 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZSuksGMJY8

R. Johnson#3
08-25-2013, 11:04 AM
Sabonis was one of the best passing big men I have ever seen

+1

b@llhog24
08-25-2013, 11:08 AM
Larry

mngopher35
08-25-2013, 11:44 AM
Bird then James for me. Lebron is the better playmaker imo but Bird had better passing skills.

TheMightyHumph
08-25-2013, 01:05 PM
An you don't know your players....serisouly your naive or trolling.

I know Iverson

Chronz
08-25-2013, 01:39 PM
False. it was a coaching decision by Alex Hannum.
Hannum didn't say he should fall in love with the assist but getting Wilt to focus on passing was well worth the payoff. Still a great passer and did what his coaches asked of him for the most part.

abe_froman
08-25-2013, 01:39 PM
bigs-webber,russell,wilt,sabonis,
the usual-lebron,pippen,wade,roy,bird,tmac
a few guys not mentioned-theus,hondo

hugepatsfan
08-25-2013, 01:44 PM
LeBron /Thread

lol Lebron isn't even that great of a passer. He finds the open man off the attention he draws which is why he's a great playmaker but he doesn't pass guys open. There's a difference.

Bostonjorge
08-25-2013, 01:46 PM
Lebron his passing ability in crunch time is amazing. With the game on the line lebron will make the pass every time. The only guy who still passes when he's pretending to have the ball with 5 sec left.

ManRam
08-25-2013, 01:52 PM
lol Lebron isn't even that great of a passer. He finds the open man off the attention he draws which is why he's a great playmaker but he doesn't pass guys open. There's a difference.

I disagree. His passing skills are tremendous. He makes passes only a few other people in the league can make. Being a willing passer is one thing, but he pulls off difficult passes frequently. His vision is tremendous, maybe better than anyone not named Rondo. He has the finesse passing game and the power one. He's brutal in transition, in a half court set, on the perimeter, in the paint...everywhere.

I think he's one of the 5 best passers in the league honestly :shrug:

I don't expect you to watch this :laugh2: but list me the players in the league that can create and pass like this. It's gonna be a short one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KT-zhe-5ORA

Or read this breakdown by Zach Harper.

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/21953230/breakdown-lebron-james-passing-is-poisonous


He's a top 5 passer in the league and the other 4 are PGs. He's a historically great passer for non-PGs too. Not the best ever, for sure...but up there.

SLY WILLIAMS
08-25-2013, 02:01 PM
Tough one

Wilt led the league in assists one season.

Johnny Johnson and Paul Pressey were Point SFs. Bird, of course. Bill Walton, Bill Russell, Michael Ray, Bob Lanier, Chris Webber.

I'm sure there are some I missed

Do you mean Micheal Ray Richardson? He was a PG.

SLY WILLIAMS
08-25-2013, 02:05 PM
Bird was the best in my opinion. I see lots of other good suggestions as well after Larry. Jordan made some great passes as well but he was not the kind of passer that Bird was. Chris Mullin did not get a huge amount of assists but he was a solid passer. So was Detlef Schrempf. Kareem was also a good passer especially to cutters.

TheMightyHumph
08-25-2013, 02:46 PM
Do you mean Micheal Ray Richardson? He was a PG.

Michael Ray played PG, SG, SF. Wherever he was needed. He worked best playing alongside a PG.

SLY WILLIAMS
08-25-2013, 02:53 PM
Michael Ray played PG, SG, SF. Wherever he was needed. He worked best playing alongside a PG.

If you mean Micheal (Sugar) Ray Richardson he was mostly a PG. I watched him play since day 1 of his career. When he was a Knick he played PG. Ray Williams played SG. When he was a Net Sugar played PG. Birdsong played SG. Sometimes the boxscore/announcer flipped Michael and Ray only because Michael was the taller player but Michael was the PG.

tr3ymill3r
08-25-2013, 03:01 PM
Brad Miller was pretty crafty too. I think any big man that ever wore a Kings jersey while Adleman was there was a good passer.

Kushed
08-25-2013, 04:04 PM
Bird of course is the greatest. Walton and Sabonis are other greats. Boris Diaw is someone will likely not get mention but is a fantastic passer. So is AK47 and Brad Dougherty back in the day

And then I thought this was something we could expand on. Players who are great passers but maybe they didn't put up amazing stat numbers rather they made great in game passes that didn't necessarily result in assists.

For example, Kevin love is an insane outlet passer.

Kushed
08-25-2013, 04:05 PM
Brad Miller was pretty crafty too. I think any big man that ever wore a Kings jersey while Adleman was there was a good passer.

Brad Miller is a great mention.

PhillyFaninLA
08-25-2013, 04:41 PM
I know Iverson

no you don't...you would not have questioned his passing ability if you did...let alone arrogantly mocked another poster for mentioning him

Verbal Christ
08-25-2013, 04:50 PM
Arvydas Sabonis

Ebbs
08-25-2013, 04:51 PM
Guys who didn't run an offense. KG comes to mind.

Kashmir13579
08-25-2013, 05:29 PM
Bird seems to be a safe bet. I wish i was around to see him and Magic go at it.

Kashmir13579
08-25-2013, 05:31 PM
What about Shaq and Tim Duncan? Both were/are great passers.

Kashmir13579
08-25-2013, 05:32 PM
Guys who didn't run an offense. KG comes to mind.

Not throughout his entire career, but those peak years with the Wolves he did it all.

Kashmir13579
08-25-2013, 05:33 PM
Do you mean Micheal Ray Richardson? He was a PG.

Sly! I still love the sig to this day!

TheMightyHumph
08-25-2013, 05:40 PM
no you don't...you would not have questioned his passing ability if you did...let alone arrogantly mocked another poster for mentioning him

You're funny

LINsation
08-25-2013, 05:45 PM
Sabonis was one of the best passing big men I have ever seen
Nailed it

Mr.ATLHawks
08-25-2013, 05:51 PM
Shaq, Admiral, Mailman, Big O all come to mind

TheMightyHumph
08-25-2013, 05:54 PM
Shaq, Admiral, Mailman, Big O all come to mind

Big O?

TheMightyHumph
08-25-2013, 06:02 PM
If you mean Micheal (Sugar) Ray Richardson he was mostly a PG. I watched him play since day 1 of his career. When he was a Knick he played PG. Ray Williams played SG. When he was a Net Sugar played PG. Birdsong played SG. Sometimes the boxscore/announcer flipped Michael and Ray only because Michael was the taller player but Michael was the PG.

Micheal Ray played all 3 positions for Nets. Footsie Walker, Darwin Cook, & Kelvin Ransey also played PG while Micheal was a Net.

TheMightyHumph
08-25-2013, 06:08 PM
Kareem and Russell were great passers. Wes Unseld as well.

Wes Unseld could make a beautiful fullcourt outlet chest pass.

Bill Walton and Eric Montross could make the fullcourt pass very well also

ManRam
08-25-2013, 06:16 PM
Why are people mentioning Shaq? We're talking best all-time, right? Surely we can think of a good 50+ big men that were better passers than him. Even just today, Noah, Gasol(s), Garnett, Diaw, Monroe, etc. probably best him. More true PFs like Blake Griffin also are clearly superior passers. All time there's Walton, Divac, Wilt, Sabonis, Karl, Kareem, Sikma, Unseld, Russell, Daugherty, Brad Miller, Webber...so on and so on. Even average players like Sam Lacey and Tom Boerwinkle are better passers than Shaq. That isn't magically negated by the fact they weren't great players.

Shaq was a very good passer, for sure, but let's not let his dominance everywhere else overrate that very specific skill.

SLY WILLIAMS
08-25-2013, 06:20 PM
Micheal Ray played all 3 positions for Nets. Footsie Walker, Darwin Cook, & Kelvin Ransey also played PG while Micheal was a Net.

Did you watch him play? Sugar was the starting PG when he played. Otis Birdsong was the starting SG when he played. Sugar never wanted the ball in somebody else's hands.

You just named 3 backups that would only play significant minutes if a starter was out injured or suspended.

Minimal
08-25-2013, 06:29 PM
I can't believe there are just a couple of mentions of LeBron on this thread. The guy averages 7 assists a game in his career while scoring 28 points a game at the same time. How many guys did we have like this in NBA? He has fast decision making on his passes, he has probably the fastest pass in NBA history that flies like a bullet and precisely on target. He can pull off all kind of trick passes with great efficiency. I believe he could average 12+ assists a game if he played a point guard role.

This video is a great example of his passing abilities.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KT-zhe-5ORA

TheMightyHumph
08-25-2013, 06:37 PM
Did you watch him play? Sugar was the starting PG when he played. Otis Birdsong was the starting SG when he played. Sugar never wanted the ball in somebody else's hands.

You just named 3 backups that would only play significant minutes if a starter was out injured or suspended.

I'm a long time Net fan, and Micheal played PG, SG and SF for them.

Defensively, the fastest hands I've ever seen.

Kashmir13579
08-25-2013, 06:39 PM
Why are people mentioning Shaq? We're talking best all-time, right? Surely we can think of a good 50+ big men that were better passers than him. Even just today, Noah, Gasol(s), Garnett, Diaw, Monroe, etc. probably best him. More true PFs like Blake Griffin also are clearly superior passers. All time there's Walton, Divac, Wilt, Sabonis, Karl, Kareem, Sikma, Unseld, Russell, Daugherty, Brad Miller, Webber...so on and so on. Even average players like Sam Lacey and Tom Boerwinkle are better passers than Shaq. That isn't magically negated by the fact they weren't great players.

Shaq was a very good passer, for sure, but let's not let his dominance everywhere else overrate that very specific skill.
50+ better passers, or 50+ better career AST%?

Some years were better than others, but i think its generally acknowledged Shaq's one of the better passing bigs this league has seen. Maybe his yearly totals are lacking because he is more of an offensive force than most of the players you mentioned combined. Simply put, he didn't need to pass. It only rounded-out his game when he added it early in his career. He walked the line between passing and scoring nearly to perfection. I don't it gets mentioned enough how unselfish he was for a man of his size and capabilities.

b@llhog24
08-25-2013, 06:40 PM
I can't believe there are just a couple of mentions of LeBron on this thread. The guy averages 7 assists a game in his career while scoring 28 points a game at the same time. How many guys did we have like this in NBA? He has fast decision making on his passes, he has probably the fastest pass in NBA history that flies like a bullet and precisely on target. He can pull off all kind of trick passes with great efficiency. I believe he could average 12+ assists a game if he played a point guard role.

This video is a great example of his passing abilities.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KT-zhe-5ORA

He's a great passer, just not better than Bird.

Kashmir13579
08-25-2013, 06:40 PM
I can't believe there are just a couple of mentions of LeBron on this thread. The guy averages 7 assists a game in his career while scoring 28 points a game at the same time. How many guys did we have like this in NBA? He has fast decision making on his passes, he has probably the fastest pass in NBA history that flies like a bullet and precisely on target. He can pull off all kind of trick passes with great efficiency. I believe he could average 12+ assists a game if he played a point guard role.

This video is a great example of his passing abilities.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KT-zhe-5ORA
I think when his career is over he will get credit for a lot more than he does now. People have a way of not recognizing greatness till its gone.

PurpleLynch
08-25-2013, 06:48 PM
-Bird obviously.
-Kobe,after all,managed to get a career avg of 5 apg(both regular season and playoff) and has made crazy passes in his career
-Pistol Pete
-Gasol
-Lebron(great passer)
-Odom(crafty passes)
-Divac
-Walton
-Webber

SLY WILLIAMS
08-25-2013, 06:57 PM
I'm a long time Net fan, and Micheal played PG, SG and SF for them.

Defensively, the fastest hands I've ever seen.

Most players will shift positions in normal rotations but Sugar was a PG. That was his position game in and game out. If you actually watched him play you should know that.

Minimal
08-25-2013, 07:02 PM
He's a great passer, just not better than Bird.
I believe Bird & Bron should be the 2 most common answers to this thread, but I don't see Bron mentioned too often. Arvydas Sabonis gets a mention as best passing big man.

TheMightyHumph
08-25-2013, 07:14 PM
Most players will shift positions in normal rotations but Sugar was a PG. That was his position game in and game out. If you actually watched him play you should know that.

I watched Micheal every game he was a Net. He played PG, SG, and SF. Where ever his presense was needed.

b@llhog24
08-25-2013, 07:22 PM
I believe Bird & Bron should be the 2 most common answers to this thread, but I don't see Bron mentioned too often. Arvydas Sabonis gets a mention as best passing big man.

Agreed.

b@llhog24
08-25-2013, 07:26 PM
Most players will shift positions in normal rotations but Sugar was a PG. That was his position game in and game out. If you actually watched him play you should know that.


I watched Micheal every game he was a Net. He played PG, SG, and SF. Where ever his presense was needed.

This is why the whole "just watch the game" argument fails to peek my interests.

TheMightyHumph
08-25-2013, 07:32 PM
Most players will shift positions in normal rotations but Sugar was a PG. That was his position game in and game out. If you actually watched him play you should know that.

I watched Micheal every game he was a Net. He played PG, SG, and SF. Where ever his presense was needed.

Basketball reference lists him as a Guard Forward.

Other articles state he was a combo guard.

bagwell368
08-25-2013, 09:14 PM
Brad was a very good passing Center, as was Alvin Adams.

But guys like Wilt and Walton had a special ability, as they were they both ran the offense.

Walton was a great passer, best passing center of all time in my book. Wilt was functionally a good passer because he drew so much attention, but his passes were not that wonderful. Not bad mind you, but not as creative as Walton.

Russell became a fine passer after Cousy retired, he's top 3 probably.

east fb knicks
08-25-2013, 11:12 PM
I never really got a chance to see bird play I had no idea he was such a great passer that's cool

east fb knicks
08-25-2013, 11:13 PM
what about Oscar Robertson he was a triple double machine

Hawkeye15
08-25-2013, 11:46 PM
Walton was a great passer, best passing center of all time in my book. Wilt was functionally a good passer because he drew so much attention, but his passes were not that wonderful. Not bad mind you, but not as creative as Walton.

Russell became a fine passer after Cousy retired, he's top 3 probably.

Walton and Sabonis are in their own class as far as passing centers.

IKnowHoops
08-26-2013, 01:06 AM
Bird
Bron
Pistol Pete
Iverson

These 4 have a case.

NoahH
08-26-2013, 02:03 AM
Brad Miller

OceanSpray
08-26-2013, 02:11 AM
Bird is lucky to have McHale and Parish, two dominant big men in the post. Obviously his passes would be easy if any good passer had those players. I'm not saying Bird isn't a great passer, he's obviously one of the best.. but let's not overrate him.

colinskik
08-26-2013, 02:42 AM
I watched Micheal every game he was a Net. He played PG, SG, and SF. Where ever his presense was needed.

Basketball reference lists him as a Guard Forward.

Other articles state he was a combo guard.

Since I didn't have the privilege of watching him play, I decided to do a brief search on him and his career in the NBA. It's pretty clear his primary position was point guard. Sure, he may have played at the 2 and even slide over to the 3 for times, but he was first and foremost a point.

If you would only stop for one second and think, you'd realize that you probably agree with every word Sly said. But instead of doing something like that, you'd rather disagree and "prove you're correct."

It doesn't shock me one bit that you are/were a union steward

asandhu23
08-26-2013, 04:56 AM
what about Oscar Robertson he was a triple double machine

He was a point guard.

asandhu23
08-26-2013, 04:57 AM
Bird
Bron
Pistol Pete
Iverson

These 4 have a case.

Pete and Iverson at times played PG position.

PhillyFaninLA
08-26-2013, 05:45 AM
I haven't seen Grant Hill's name mentioned, I may have missed it, but with all the injuries and other players he may have been missed but things deserves mention

PhillyFaninLA
08-26-2013, 05:46 AM
Pete and Iverson at times played PG position.

90% of Iverson's career he was SG....in Philly Eric Snow was the PG most of the time.

PurpleLynch
08-26-2013, 06:33 AM
Robertson was a PG,so you can't put his name in the list.

DreamShaker
08-26-2013, 08:42 AM
Brad Miller was pretty crafty too. I think any big man that ever wore a Kings jersey while Adleman was there was a good passer.

I remember Peja made one of the greatest passes I have ever seen. It's on YouTube. Those Kings teams were fun to watch.

ManRam
08-26-2013, 09:34 AM
50+ better passers, or 50+ better career AST%?

Some years were better than others, but i think its generally acknowledged Shaq's one of the better passing bigs this league has seen. Maybe his yearly totals are lacking because he is more of an offensive force than most of the players you mentioned combined. Simply put, he didn't need to pass. It only rounded-out his game when he added it early in his career. He walked the line between passing and scoring nearly to perfection. I don't it gets mentioned enough how unselfish he was for a man of his size and capabilities.

Both probably.

Shaq was a great passer, don't get me wrong...but there were plenty that were better IMO.

asandhu23
08-26-2013, 09:45 AM
90% of Iverson's career he was SG....in Philly Eric Snow was the PG most of the time.

Let me rephrase that... he played like a scoring point guard.

colinskik
08-26-2013, 10:10 AM
I was always impressed with the way the Kings big men passed (Vlade, Webber, Brad Miller).

David Lee is also a pretty decent passer for a big man.

SLY WILLIAMS
08-26-2013, 10:28 AM
Since I didn't have the privilege of watching him play, I decided to do a brief search on him and his career in the NBA. It's pretty clear his primary position was point guard. Sure, he may have played at the 2 and even slide over to the 3 for times, but he was first and foremost a point.

If you would only stop for one second and think, you'd realize that you probably agree with every word Sly said. But instead of doing something like that, you'd rather disagree and "prove you're correct."

It doesn't shock me one bit that you are/were a union steward

I chose not to respond to the guy again because everyone that actually watched Sugar play knows he was a PG. He was a PG in college. He was a PG in the NBA. Do we call Magic a center or a PF? He played them both at times but was primarily a PG.

b@llhog24
08-26-2013, 10:37 AM
I chose not to respond to the guy again because everyone that actually watched Sugar play knows he was a PG. He was a PG in college. He was a PG in the NBA. Do we call Magic a center or a PF? He played them both at times but was primarily a PG.

If it's any consolation, bbref lists him as PG a majority of his career.

hugepatsfan
08-26-2013, 10:39 AM
I disagree. His passing skills are tremendous. He makes passes only a few other people in the league can make. Being a willing passer is one thing, but he pulls off difficult passes frequently. His vision is tremendous, maybe better than anyone not named Rondo. He has the finesse passing game and the power one. He's brutal in transition, in a half court set, on the perimeter, in the paint...everywhere.

I think he's one of the 5 best passers in the league honestly :shrug:

I don't expect you to watch this :laugh2: but list me the players in the league that can create and pass like this. It's gonna be a short one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KT-zhe-5ORA

Or read this breakdown by Zach Harper.

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/21953230/breakdown-lebron-james-passing-is-poisonous


He's a top 5 passer in the league and the other 4 are PGs. He's a historically great passer for non-PGs too. Not the best ever, for sure...but up there.

What I mean is that Lebron doesn't pass covered people open. I watched that entire video and it was pretty much the same thing the entire way - defense caves in on Lebron and he passes to a wide open guy. Save a pass or two he wasn't passing to teammates in congested areas where he had to angle the pass right. He does have a special skill for making passes out of awkward body positions caused by the increase pressure of the D on him. Lebron's passing numbers are a product of the D playing him over his teammates. I will concede it's not fair for me to say he can't pass when the D isn't focused on him (even the off ball guys) because he's so dangerous that situation never comes up. But to me the skill of passing is being able to get the ball to people with tight D. That means you can't just lob it up to someone standing alone. You have to get it there at the perfect angle. Lebron never really has to do that because the entire D is always keying on him. Not questioning the effectiveness of his passing - I called him the best playmaker in the league. But his skill is getting his body in position to pass, not the actual difficulty of the pass.

pd7631
08-26-2013, 10:43 AM
90% of Iverson's career he was SG....in Philly Eric Snow was the PG most of the time.

Let me rephrase that... he played like a scoring point guard.

No, he played like a SG. Perhaps the most underrated aspect of AI's game was his ability to play off the ball and come off screens. Players like Reggie Miller and Rip Hamilton are always mentioned as the best at this, but AI was as good, if not better, than those guys.

Chronz
08-26-2013, 11:12 AM
Even when Tmac's body had completely betrayed him, ONE skill kept Tmac in the NBA...... he deserves mentioning here. One of the most efficient passers this side of LeBron. Definitely the best SG passer mentioned thus far.

SLY WILLIAMS
08-26-2013, 11:45 AM
If it's any consolation, bbref lists him as PG a majority of his career.

You are right. I think the only reason he was listed as SG in some boxscores for a couple of those early seasons was because Ray Williams was 2 inches shorter but Knicks fans know once Sugar was drafted it was to be the PG and Ray became the SG. In fact I think Sugar led the league with over 10 assists in one of those two seasons. Sugar calls himself a point guard in multiple articles. They never list him as a SG or SF on the Nets.

Chronz
08-26-2013, 11:47 AM
Why are people mentioning Shaq? We're talking best all-time, right? Surely we can think of a good 50+ big men that were better passers than him. Even just today, Noah, Gasol(s), Garnett, Diaw, Monroe, etc. probably best him. More true PFs like Blake Griffin also are clearly superior passers. All time there's Walton, Divac, Wilt, Sabonis, Karl, Kareem, Sikma, Unseld, Russell, Daugherty, Brad Miller, Webber...so on and so on. Even average players like Sam Lacey and Tom Boerwinkle are better passers than Shaq. That isn't magically negated by the fact they weren't great players.

Shaq was a very good passer, for sure, but let's not let his dominance everywhere else overrate that very specific skill.
Shaq is definitely in the conversation with some of the guys you mentioned.

ewing
08-26-2013, 12:04 PM
Why is Allen Iverson mention in ever thread regardless of what it is about?

colinskik
08-26-2013, 12:04 PM
I chose not to respond to the guy again because everyone that actually watched Sugar play knows he was a PG. He was a PG in college. He was a PG in the NBA. Do we call Magic a center or a PF? He played them both at times but was primarily a PG.

Exactly.

But don't expect this guy to take the high road like you. Anything but in fact.

bstnfn34
08-26-2013, 12:09 PM
my first thoughts were
kg
Antoine walker
karl Malone
lebrick
dwade
pau
chris webber

TheMightyHumph
08-26-2013, 12:27 PM
I chose not to respond to the guy again because everyone that actually watched Sugar play knows he was a PG. He was a PG in college. He was a PG in the NBA. Do we call Magic a center or a PF? He played them both at times but was primarily a PG.

Magic wasn't a PG when he made his comeback

TheMightyHumph
08-26-2013, 12:30 PM
This is why the whole "just watch the game" argument fails to peek my interests.

And if 'peeking your interests' was the concern of this board, it would look very different.

TheMightyHumph
08-26-2013, 12:34 PM
Exactly.

But don't expect this guy to take the high road like you. Anything but in fact.

This guy is telling me MRR spent every moment as a PG, and that is just not true. He was very good at SG and SF positions, both of which he played for the Nets.

The road doesn't get higher than the truth.

TheMightyHumph
08-26-2013, 12:38 PM
Walton was a great passer, best passing center of all time in my book. Wilt was functionally a good passer because he drew so much attention, but his passes were not that wonderful. Not bad mind you, but not as creative as Walton.

Russell became a fine passer after Cousy retired, he's top 3 probably.

Walton was a better passer than Wilt, But Wilt could throw some very tricky passes. He learned some stuff when playing with the Globetrotters.

Jabari Smith could also throw some really fancy passes.

valade16
08-26-2013, 12:41 PM
He's probably not the best passing non-PG ever, but he should be on the short list of best passing big men ever: Arvydas Sabonis.

Also, I think the best passing team in the history of the league was probably those early 00's Kings teams. Just straight nasty. Everybody could pass like crazy.

SLY WILLIAMS
08-26-2013, 12:41 PM
Magic wasn't a PG when he made his comeback

I know that and I actually commented on it yesterday in a Michael Jordan thread.

Are you going to say those 30 some odd games Magic played as a PF makes him a PF and ignore that he was primarily a PG?

TheMightyHumph
08-26-2013, 12:58 PM
I know that and I actually commented on it yesterday in a Michael Jordan thread.

Are you going to say those 30 some odd games Magic played as a PF makes him a PF and ignore that he was primarily a PG?

All I said was Magic wasn't a PG when he made his comeback.

But note that Magic is listed as a SG his first seasons, until Lakers traded Norm Nixon.

SLY WILLIAMS
08-26-2013, 01:04 PM
This guy is telling me MRR spent every moment as a PG, and that is just not true. He was very good at SG and SF positions, both of which he played for the Nets.

The road doesn't get higher than the truth.

The truth is you just lied.

I never said that Sugar spent every moment as a PG. I actually said said most players shift positions occasionally during the rotations of a game but Sugar was primarily a PG. That does not mean he played PG every second of every game. Almost every player in the NBA will spend a little time here and there outside their normal position. This thread asked for the best non point guard passer. You keep wanting to ignore the truth that Sugar was primarily a PG.

“Sugar” was the fourth pick in the 1978 NBA draft, taken by the Knicks two spots ahead of Larry Bird. He played four years in New York, becoming only the second player ever to lead the league in assists and steals in 1980—Bird and Magic’s rookie year.
When he played, really played, no one controlled the point any better. He had a way of not making a decision until after it looked like he’d already decided. It’s like the game was a split second behind for him. When it looked like there was one way he couldn’t go, he’d always go that way. He had the size of a shooting guard and that made him scary. He frightened Isiah Thomas, who admits that to this day. You know, the same best-pure-point-guard-of-all-time Isiah Thomas.
How’d you end up in Montana?
I’m originally from Denver, Colorado, so I was recruited by the University of Montana. I had three or four other schools: the University of Iowa, Colorado State, and Colorado. But I chose Montana because I was gonna be able to play right away as a freshman. As soon as I got there, I was the starting point guard for all four years.
The strange nature of his journey is not lost on Richardson, but as he would surely tell anyone who asked: any good point guard has the requisite knowledge to coach. It’s just a matter of getting players to buy-in.
The way he sees it, the more teams respect the knowledge of point guards, the better his chances.
They called him "Sugar Ray" back then. He was a bigger-than-average point guard at the time, standing 6-foot-5 and 190 pounds. After playing collegiately at Montana, the New York Knicks drafted Richardson with the fourth pick overall in the 1978 NBA Draft and he was billed as "the next Walt Frazier." Two picks later, the Boston Celtics drafted Larry Bird.

At 6’5″, Richardson was also a monster of a point guard. He didn’t make too many flashy assists, but he made zipping laser-guided passes that found their way to the intended target. When Magic Johnson debuted in the NBA in the 1979-80 season, it was Richardson who led the NBA in assists per game.
In the final two minutes it's his game," says forward Buck Williams. Now it will have to be someone else's. Says Kelvin Ransey, who, with Darwin Cook, will be filling Richardson's point guard spot, "Most of all we'll miss his cockiness."
This season Wohl could find little fault with Richardson's play. Unless your name is Magic Johnson, you don't perform at point guard any better than he does.
Swept up in the dramatic arc, Micheal Ray can feel it now: Something sinister is about to happen to him again. He is coiled up next to the screen, fists clenched. He is still loose-limbed and nimble, a point guard with the body of a small forward, his eyes wide and expressive, a stud in his left ear, a long face framed by a goatee that betrays little sense of his age.
You watch those highlights of Richardson as a young man and it's like someone put Magic Johnson on fast-forward: He is quick and strong and fearless in the lane, a point guard from the slums of Denver unleashed on the streets of New York at a precarious moment to be young and rich in America.

asandhu23
08-26-2013, 01:42 PM
Walton was a better passer than Wilt, But Wilt could throw some very tricky passes. He learned some stuff when playing with the Globetrotters.

Jabari Smith could also throw some really fancy passes.


Not just learned. He played PG for them and this was back when they weren't a clown team.

colinskik
08-26-2013, 01:48 PM
This guy is telling me MRR spent every moment as a PG, and that is just not true. He was very good at SG and SF positions, both of which he played for the Nets.

The road doesn't get higher than the truth.

No, that is NOT what Sly was telling you. But there's no need for me to get into it any further because he took you to school in the post two above this one.

TheMightyHumph
08-26-2013, 01:48 PM
The truth is you just lied.

I never said that Sugar spent every moment as a PG. I actually said said most players shift positions occasionally during the rotations of a game but Sugar was primarily a PG. That does not mean he played PG every second of every game. Almost every player in the NBA will spend a little time here and there outside their normal position. This thread asked for the best non point guard passer. You keep wanting to ignore the truth that Sugar was primarily a PG.

You are correct. I misstated what you said.

But as a Net, MRR played all 3 positions, and played them very well.

TheMightyHumph
08-26-2013, 05:37 PM
Did anyone mention Rick Barry?