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View Full Version : Magic Wonders Why He's Not In LBJ's Top Three



JasonJohnHorn
08-22-2013, 11:23 PM
https://twitter.com/MagicJohnson/status/370615269703811072


lol.... like Magic needs validation from LBJ...

HouRealCoach
08-22-2013, 11:33 PM
Kobe...? Come on Magic

Hawkeye15
08-22-2013, 11:34 PM
does Magic really care? It was more of a "favorite" list. No serious person can think Dr J is a top 3 player ever. Hell, Bron passed him well over a year ago.

D-Leethal
08-22-2013, 11:38 PM
Poor guy. Sometimes Magic should just stop talking. Actually that pretty much holds true all the time.

Lakerfan8032
08-22-2013, 11:40 PM
I love Magic but he should have never responded to James' list. Who gives a **** what LBJ likes? Come on Magic, don't worry about crap that means nothing. We all know you are an all time great.

Pablonovi
08-22-2013, 11:41 PM
Magic has said a lot of things over the years that even he probably won't agree with some time in the future. And some of those things have been just wrong. Nothing new here.

It must be the off-season, and we desperate fans are latching on to anything and everything - woah is us!

Hawkeye15
08-22-2013, 11:56 PM
Magic has said a lot of things over the years that even he probably won't agree with some time in the future. And some of tIhose things have been just wrong. Nothing new here.

It must be the off-season, and we desperate fans are latching on to anything and everything - woah is us!


exactly what happens every August here dude, or any chat board for NBA

Hellcrooner
08-23-2013, 12:08 AM
You get what you deserve.
If you had honored your wife and kept your Oscar Mayer in your trousers none of this would be happening.

Mr West and Mr Buss would ahve made yet another supertrade and you would ahve gotten your 6th and maybe even 7th ring cutting down at the same time the ring account of the Coca Cola king of the power.

And no one would be discussing ****.

Remember Young kids.
Plastic is your friend.

Tony_Starks
08-23-2013, 12:12 AM
He said nothing of the sort. What he actually said is that he sees a lot of his game in Lebron and he's one of his favorite players to watch. And he said at the end of the day it's all about championships....

Haters sure will reach......

Hawkeye15
08-23-2013, 12:13 AM
You get what you deserve.
If you had honored your wife and kept your Oscar Mayer in your trousers none of this would be happening.

Mr West and Mr Buss would ahve made yet another supertrade and you would ahve gotten your 6th and maybe even 7th ring cutting down at the same time the ring account of the Coca Cola king of the power.

And no one would be discussing ****.

Remember Young kids.
Plastic is your friend.

Magic could have won 15 rings, his numbers and dominance on defense aren't passing MJ.

Hawkeye15
08-23-2013, 12:13 AM
He said nothing of the sort. What he actually said is that he sees a lot of his game in Lebron and he's one of his favorite players to watch. And he said and the end of the day it's all about championships....

Haters sure will reach......

yeah, I didn't read him *****ing, he just said exactly what you said here.

Tony_Starks
08-23-2013, 12:15 AM
yeah, I didn't read him *****ing, he just said exactly what you said here.

It's funny how people make thread titles with obvious agendas...

Hellcrooner
08-23-2013, 12:45 AM
Magic could have won 15 rings, his numbers and dominance on defense aren't passing MJ.

yeah , cause that had noting to do with having Pippen and Horace Grant/rodman at his side. :rolleyes:

Hawkeye15
08-23-2013, 12:48 AM
yeah , cause that had noting to do with having Pippen and Horace Grant/rodman at his side. :rolleyes:

Nor Magic having KAJ, Worthy, Coop, Scott, Thompson, Riley, etc....... at his.

Please dude. Magic was given chip help year 1, Jordan's came in year 7. Imagine how many rings Mike would have given Magic's scenario.

Fact is, Jordan was CLEARLY the better player, on offense maybe only by a small margin, on defense by a gigantic margin. And I have Magic top 5, that is how much buffer Jordan has. You think he was force fed to us by the media, and that is why he was the GOAT. No, it was his utter statistical dominance, with accolades, awards, and playoff success.

Hellcrooner
08-23-2013, 01:17 AM
Nor Magic having KAJ, Worthy, Coop, Scott, Thompson, Riley, etc....... at his.

Please dude. Magic was given chip help year 1, Jordan's came in year 7. Imagine how many rings Mike would have given Magic's scenario.

Fact is, Jordan was CLEARLY the better player, on offense maybe only by a small margin, on defense by a gigantic margin. And I have Magic top 5, that is how much buffer Jordan has. You think he was force fed to us by the media, and that is why he was the GOAT. No, it was his utter statistical dominance, with accolades, awards, and playoff success.

jordan on the lakers?

0 rings.
Would have clashed right away with Kareem and one of them would ahve gone out.

OceanSpray
08-23-2013, 01:20 AM
Magic was turnover prone, no defense, and was a mediocre scorer. Great passer and rebounder, but he was not complete. Also, very inflated stats.

dhopisthename
08-23-2013, 01:22 AM
if rings are all that matters why is it that he doesn't mention russell's 11 rings?

OceanSpray
08-23-2013, 01:29 AM
if rings are all that matters why is it that he doesn't mention russell's 11 rings?

Because it only matters when you're comparing them with LeBron.. Apparently there's no such thing as double standard for these egotistic hall of famers. They just kiss their own generations butt so they can brag about them being better than the current generation.

FreakaNashur
08-23-2013, 02:08 AM
I see LeBron pulled a nerve when he shouldn't have..Lol. it's only HIS top 3. no biggie.

JasonJohnHorn
08-23-2013, 02:17 AM
if rings are all that matters why is it that he doesn't mention russell's 11 rings?

This is what I was thinking too.. lol

JasonJohnHorn
08-23-2013, 02:19 AM
It's funny how people make thread titles with obvious agendas...

What was the obvious agenda?

JasonJohnHorn
08-23-2013, 02:22 AM
Haters sure will reach......

How is this a reach... LBJ comes up with a top three list and Magic responds... where is the reach? You think Magic just posted this coincidentally and it has nothing to do with LBJ's 'top three'?

I'm not saying this is 'big news', but as a fan of the game and as a guy who thinks LBJ and Magic are two of the best players to ever play the game, I find it interesting to see how they evaluate other players and how the engage in a dialogue with each other. I'm sure most other fans share a similar interest.

SugeKnight
08-23-2013, 02:27 AM
Bill Russel the GOAT: 11 ringz

UPRock
08-23-2013, 02:28 AM
You know what's weird? That he made a list saying that championships is what matters but he didn't mention Kobe at all.

abe_froman
08-23-2013, 03:07 AM
Magic was a mediocre scorer. .
because of what,volume? he's equal to slightly more efficient a scorer than lebron.magic took less shots because of role.he was a pass first pg playing with kareem,as kareem declined magic jumped to being a 20+ ppg scorer.how exactly is that mediocre?

Ebbs
08-23-2013, 03:15 AM
Lol croon pulling out the supporting cast argument with MJ over MJ aha.

Terrible choice

topdog
08-23-2013, 07:42 AM
if rings are all that matters why is it that he doesn't mention russell's 11 rings?

Same reason that he didn't mention Kobe - he was only adding himself to Lebron's list.

archdevil84
08-23-2013, 09:25 AM
Nor Magic having KAJ, Worthy, Coop, Scott, Thompson, Riley, etc....... at his.

Please dude. Magic was given chip help year 1, Jordan's came in year 7. Imagine how many rings Mike would have given Magic's scenario.

Fact is, Jordan was CLEARLY the better player, on offense maybe only by a small margin, on defense by a gigantic margin. And I have Magic top 5, that is how much buffer Jordan has. You think he was force fed to us by the media, and that is why he was the GOAT. No, it was his utter statistical dominance, with accolades, awards, and playoff success.

What is your top 5 actually? I'm curious because you seem like a person who isnt a complete ****** like most of the people on this forum

ewing
08-23-2013, 09:29 AM
Magic was turnover prone, no defense, and was a mediocre scorer. Great passer and rebounder, but he was not complete. Also, very inflated stats.

how old are you?

sep11ie
08-23-2013, 09:41 AM
Of all the people that had to recover from AIDS, it had to be him...

hidalgo
08-23-2013, 09:45 AM
dumbest thing Magic ever said was KB is the best Laker ever. no Magic, that would be you

I don't see anything wrong with LeBron's list, he did say he'd have Magic at #4

ManRam
08-23-2013, 09:46 AM
It amazes me so much how people, both losers like us and people like Magic Johnson, actually care about this stuff.

LeBron's list sucks, but Magic knows plenty about terrible basketball analysis. Karma maybe!

hidalgo
08-23-2013, 09:57 AM
Magic was turnover prone, no defense, and was a mediocre scorer. Great passer and rebounder, but he was not complete. Also, very inflated stats.it's really unfair to say no defense. he wasn't a bad defender whatsoever, he was an avg defender to slightly above avg (like say a 5 is an avg defender, he was about a 5.8, nothing to write home about, but still more good than bad, or at least avg, & not a liability ) it's not like he was Nash or Calderon out there getting torched, no he did his job ok on d, & his post up game was great, & a good reason he got so many assists is because he'd have to be doubled posting up then he's pass to the open guy. I think he was a fine scorer, he just looked for the assist first

KnicksorBust
08-23-2013, 10:05 AM
Shame on Magic for leaving out Russell and Kobe. In a related story, people are ready to anoint LeBron as a potential GOAT candidate and Magic just comes out and checks him with "2 rings ain't ****." Maybe it's just me but I loved it.

Tony_Starks
08-23-2013, 12:33 PM
How is this a reach... LBJ comes up with a top three list and Magic responds... where is the reach? You think Magic just posted this coincidentally and it has nothing to do with LBJ's 'top three'?

I'm not saying this is 'big news', but as a fan of the game and as a guy who thinks LBJ and Magic are two of the best players to ever play the game, I find it interesting to see how they evaluate other players and how the engage in a dialogue with each other. I'm sure most other fans share a similar interest.

The reach is you're misleading thread title insinuating Magic had a problem not being in the top 3 when in fact he actually said nothing close to that and complemented Lebron.

But it worked because apparently nobody even bothered to read what was really said and just ran with it....

Chronz
08-23-2013, 12:36 PM
I know we all have a right to our opinions, but its my opinion that you got to be a stupid mother****er to rank BOTH Bird and Julius ahead of Magic.

Bruno
08-23-2013, 12:43 PM
and the greatest bigmen who have ever lived. ^

notice that wings usually talk about wings and bigs talk about bigs? makes sense but more often than not these lists seem like they are about their favorite players.

people need to distinguish greatest incarnation at peak production from greatest overall career and favorite. people can be debating any one of these three things at the same time and nobody clarifies.

when i talk about "greatest" i'm usually discussing greatest career, unless i specifically say peak incarnation.

Hawkeye15
08-23-2013, 12:45 PM
What is your top 5 actually? I'm curious because you seem like a person who isnt a complete ****** like most of the people on this forum

It differs from time to time, but the ones that never leave:

MJ
KAJ
Wilt

after that, I usually have 2 of the following 3 swing in and out:

Magic
Shaq
Duncan

I think the absolute 2 other players that are in the top 10, no argument are:

Dream
Russell (Russell I think is overrated, but I can't deny his accomplishments on the basketball floor).

I think LeBron is the only current player who can make a pretty big dent in my list. Kobe hovers around the 10-12 mark at any given time.

Hawkeye15
08-23-2013, 12:47 PM
and the greatest bigmen who have ever lived. ^

notice that wings usually talk about wings and bigs talk about bigs? makes sense but more often than not these lists seem like they are about their favorite players.

people need to distinguish greatest incarnation at peak production from greatest overall career and favorite. people can be debating any one of these three things at the same time and nobody clarifies.

when i talk about "greatest" i'm usually discussing greatest career, unless i specifically say peak incarnation.

6 of my top 8 ever are big men (centers, yes Timmy, you are a center)

ewing
08-23-2013, 12:52 PM
I know we all have a right to our opinions, but its my opinion that you got to be a stupid mother****er to rank BOTH Bird and Julius ahead of Magic.


there certainly is a case for Bird. I don't see one for Dr J.

ztilzer31
08-23-2013, 12:56 PM
I don't see what the problem is. Bird is better than magic, and KAJ is better than both of them.

ewing
08-23-2013, 12:59 PM
because of what,volume? he's equal to slightly more efficient a scorer than lebron.magic took less shots because of role.he was a pass first pg playing with kareem,as kareem declined magic jumped to being a 20+ ppg scorer.how exactly is that mediocre?

Magic was a fantastic all around offensive player. He created more offensive then any player i've ever watched and was a legit scorer who got to the line and shot close to 55% from the floor in his prime. He was great on the break and in the half court. He created problems both on and off the ball. to say
he was anything other then an offensive force he total BS

Bruno
08-23-2013, 01:07 PM
6 of my top 8 ever are big men (centers, yes Timmy, you are a center)

and thats not even counting Moses who's gona land in most peoples #11-13 position. MJ is the only wing other than LBJ who's been able to match the peak production of the leagues best centers (in terms of purely statistics). I'm getting to the point where I think Magic and Bird are slightly overrated (and closer to being in the Kobe camp at the trail end of the top ten) than ahead of KAJ/Wilt/Shaq/Duncan. I want to put Hakeem in that grouping but he wasn't as statistically dominant as those four. this is in terms of peak production.

nobody seems to give a damn that larry and magic combine for three defensive teams. setting the table for MJ seems to outshine that fact.

how can you put wings with similar or less statistics ahead of the statistically dominant bigs, who also anchored championship defenses? in a discussion of peak incarnation, you just can't do it.

Bruno
08-23-2013, 01:12 PM
and thats not even counting Moses who's gona land in most peoples #11-13 position. MJ is the only wing other than LBJ who's been able to match the peak production of the leagues best centers (in terms of purely statistics). I'm getting to the point where I think Magic and Bird are slightly overrated (and closer to being in the Kobe camp at the trail end of the top ten) than ahead of KAJ/Wilt/Shaq/Duncan. I want to put Hakeem in that grouping but he wasn't as statistically dominant as those four. this is in terms of peak production.

nobody seems to give a damn that larry and magic combine for three defensive teams. setting the table for MJ seems to outshine that fact.

how can you put wings with similar or less statistics ahead of the statistically dominant bigs, who also anchored championship defenses? in a discussion of peak incarnation, you just can't do it.

personally, I don't get into peak that much, but I'm not so much of homer than I can't admit what I wrote above.

here's the camp I come from: I don't care about how great your tools are, or how nice they are (size, strength, three/five year peak while ignoring the rest of the career). i want to know what you built with them. thats why i tend to discuss greatest career, when talking about the "greatest players ever" rather than peak production (which I save for 'if you had to build a five man roster going into a game seven to beat anyone ect ext).

IKnowHoops
08-23-2013, 01:15 PM
I didn't watch moses malone play. Anyone watch both Moses and DRob play. Of the people that have watched both, who do you got?

Pablonovi
08-23-2013, 01:23 PM
I didn't watch moses malone play. Anyone watch both Moses and DRob play. Of the people that have watched both, who do you got?

I got to see both's entire career. Moses but not by much.

Pablonovi
08-23-2013, 01:24 PM
personally, I don't get into peak that much, but I'm not so much of homer than I can't admit what I wrote above.

here's the camp I come from: I don't care about how great your tools are, or how nice they are. i want to know what you built with them. thats why i tend to discuss greatest career, when talking about the "greatest players ever" rather than peak production (which I save for 'if you had to build a five man roster going into a game seven to beat anyone ect ext).

Love this.

Pablonovi
08-23-2013, 01:34 PM
and thats not even counting Moses who's gona land in most peoples #11-13 position. MJ is the only wing other than LBJ who's been able to match the peak production of the leagues best centers (in terms of purely statistics). I'm getting to the point where I think Magic and Bird are slightly overrated (and closer to being in the Kobe camp at the trail end of the top ten) than ahead of KAJ/Wilt/Shaq/Duncan. I want to put Hakeem in that grouping but he wasn't as statistically dominant as those four. this is in terms of peak production.

nobody seems to give a damn that larry and magic combine for three defensive teams. setting the table for MJ seems to outshine that fact.

how can you put wings with similar or less statistics ahead of the statistically dominant bigs, who also anchored championship defenses? in a discussion of peak incarnation, you just can't do it.

I agree about Bird; Magic takes him on offense; and neither was great on defense.

I have Magic in my All-Time Top 5 because no one has ever been a better teammate - IF he's on your team, you automatically play your best ball. If I build an All-Time Team, he's the first player I pick because it's TEAM. I can't see any other player at all that was better than Magic at bringing the best out of his teammates.

Bird was awesome; but he also, simultaneous with Magic, had great teammates. Parish was top 5 Center "eternally". McHale was UNIQUE - impossible to stop with his unlimited number of offensive moves; and a terrific defender. Dennis Johnson was a great defender. Bill Walton was 6th-man-of-the-year quality; and a better defender that year than Bird. Other complimentary players were no slouches either: Ainge, Cornbread, etc. Yet with all this help; Bird only got 3 Chips. That's not enough for me to have him close to my top 5. His teams also suffered too many early-round Playoff eliminations; for him to rank higher for me.

On the other hand, his teamwork was second only to Magic's and that attitude/skill counts #1 for me; so he's gotta be in the Top 10. Like iirc bagwell said, you put Bird in Baylor's * place with West and Wilt, and Wilt would have been the MVP - Bird was that great of a teammate.

* And I have Baylor in my All-Time Top 20.

abe_froman
08-23-2013, 02:21 PM
I know we all have a right to our opinions, but its my opinion that you got to be a stupid mother****er to rank BOTH Bird and Julius ahead of Magic.
ranking bird over magic isnt that ridiculous,you can def make an argument for it.but his list is odd in not mentioning magic,any bigs,west,or even oscar(who tried to cozy up to lebron in cleveland and is his closest comparable) over doc

Minimal
08-23-2013, 02:25 PM
LeBron named him 4th in his list in the interview. That stands for something, Magic.

AnthonyTyrael
08-23-2013, 03:30 PM
I didn't watch moses malone play. Anyone watch both Moses and DRob play. Of the people that have watched both, who do you got?

I'm not old enough, so I can't tell. Just saw Malone's last couple years, around 1990 till he ended up on the Spurs. I really liked that guy. He was great but I've never watched him play in his prime, just read the stats. NBA lacks guys with glasses nowadays. Not being that tall, nor being afro amercian, and for sure not a professional basketball player, at least through wearing glasses I somehow could identify with him.

DRob is in my opinion overrated. His run for the scoring championship hurt somewhat his reputation. Though, I remember a discussion not long ago going on @ PSD about greatest big men of all times and he was closer to the top than I would have expected. Still he needed Timmy to win a chip and he came into the league late while Moses, at that time (joining the NBA) was the youngest ever... I think he was back then.

Anyways, looking at them and all the others, even at guys like Ewing, I clearly see where Dwight never will be/end up. That puss(y) in boots. :D

KnicksorBust
08-23-2013, 04:15 PM
It differs from time to time, but the ones that never leave:

MJ
KAJ
Wilt

after that, I usually have 2 of the following 3 swing in and out:

Magic
Shaq
Duncan

I think the absolute 2 other players that are in the top 10, no argument are:

Dream
Russell (Russell I think is overrated, but I can't deny his accomplishments on the basketball floor).

I think LeBron is the only current player who can make a pretty big dent in my list. Kobe hovers around the 10-12 mark at any given time.

It drives me crazy that you have Kobe out of your top 10 when his resume is so strong... but we've talked about this plenty before but I would like to hear your response to my question to Bruno.


and thats not even counting Moses who's gona land in most peoples #11-13 position. MJ is the only wing other than LBJ who's been able to match the peak production of the leagues best centers (in terms of purely statistics). I'm getting to the point where I think Magic and Bird are slightly overrated (and closer to being in the Kobe camp at the trail end of the top ten) than ahead of KAJ/Wilt/Shaq/Duncan. I want to put Hakeem in that grouping but he wasn't as statistically dominant as those four. this is in terms of peak production.

nobody seems to give a damn that larry and magic combine for three defensive teams. setting the table for MJ seems to outshine that fact.

how can you put wings with similar or less statistics ahead of the statistically dominant bigs, who also anchored championship defenses? in a discussion of peak incarnation, you just can't do it.

How much do you value center defense vs. perimeter defense assuming both are comparable?

Example: Kobe's defensive impact vs. Shaq's defensive impact?

KnicksorBust
08-23-2013, 04:18 PM
Moses was clearly better than DRob imo but advanced stats have grown to overrate The Admiral over the years.

Chronz
08-23-2013, 04:35 PM
I know we all have a right to our opinions, but its my opinion that you got to be a stupid mother****er to rank BOTH Bird and Julius ahead of Magic.
ranking bird over magic isnt that ridiculous,you can def make an argument for it.but his list is odd in not mentioning magic,any bigs,west,or even oscar(who tried to cozy up to lebron in cleveland and is his closest comparable) over doc

True, I should have said its INSANE to have Julius ahead of BOTH Magic and Legend

Chronz
08-23-2013, 04:40 PM
It differs from time to time, but the ones that never leave:

MJ
KAJ
Wilt

after that, I usually have 2 of the following 3 swing in and out:

Magic
Shaq
Duncan

I think the absolute 2 other players that are in the top 10, no argument are:

Dream
Russell (Russell I think is overrated, but I can't deny his accomplishments on the basketball floor).

I think LeBron is the only current player who can make a pretty big dent in my list. Kobe hovers around the 10-12 mark at any given time.

It drives me crazy that you have Kobe out of your top 10 when his resume is so strong... but we've talked about this plenty before but I would like to hear your response to my question to Bruno.


and thats not even counting Moses who's gona land in most peoples #11-13 position. MJ is the only wing other than LBJ who's been able to match the peak production of the leagues best centers (in terms of purely statistics). I'm getting to the point where I think Magic and Bird are slightly overrated (and closer to being in the Kobe camp at the trail end of the top ten) than ahead of KAJ/Wilt/Shaq/Duncan. I want to put Hakeem in that grouping but he wasn't as statistically dominant as those four. this is in terms of peak production.

nobody seems to give a damn that larry and magic combine for three defensive teams. setting the table for MJ seems to outshine that fact.

how can you put wings with similar or less statistics ahead of the statistically dominant bigs, who also anchored championship defenses? in a discussion of peak incarnation, you just can't do it.

How much do you value center defense vs. perimeter defense assuming both are comparable?

Example: Kobe's defensive impact vs. Shaq's defensive impact?
Hes talking about peak performance I believe.

And good 2nd question, kobe can try his hardest but effort has not been enough to keep his teams from ranking last defensively. Shaq when motivated is the kind of guy who can anchor a championship defense. Its the biggest reason shaq has always had a superior impact on their teams. Even if Shaq isn't among the best at his position like kobe may have been, u can't teach size.

Chronz
08-23-2013, 04:44 PM
and thats not even counting Moses who's gona land in most peoples #11-13 position. MJ is the only wing other than LBJ who's been able to match the peak production of the leagues best centers (in terms of purely statistics). I'm getting to the point where I think Magic and Bird are slightly overrated (and closer to being in the Kobe camp at the trail end of the top ten) than ahead of KAJ/Wilt/Shaq/Duncan. I want to put Hakeem in that grouping but he wasn't as statistically dominant as those four. this is in terms of peak production.

nobody seems to give a damn that larry and magic combine for three defensive teams. setting the table for MJ seems to outshine that fact.

how can you put wings with similar or less statistics ahead of the statistically dominant bigs, who also anchored championship defenses? in a discussion of peak incarnation, you just can't do it.

I agree about Bird; Magic takes him on offense; and neither was great on defense.

I have Magic in my All-Time Top 5 because no one has ever been a better teammate - IF he's on your team, you automatically play your best ball. If I build an All-Time Team, he's the first player I pick because it's TEAM. I can't see any other player at all that was better than Magic at bringing the best out of his teammates.

Bird was awesome; but he also, simultaneous with Magic, had great teammates. Parish was top 5 Center "eternally". McHale was UNIQUE - impossible to stop with his unlimited number of offensive moves; and a terrific defender. Dennis Johnson was a great defender. Bill Walton was 6th-man-of-the-year quality; and a better defender that year than Bird. Other complimentary players were no slouches either: Ainge, Cornbread, etc. Yet with all this help; Bird only got 3 Chips. That's not enough for me to have him close to my top 5. His teams also suffered too many early-round Playoff eliminations; for him to rank higher for me.

On the other hand, his teamwork was second only to Magic's and that attitude/skill counts #1 for me; so he's gotta be in the Top 10. Like iirc bagwell said, you put Bird in Baylor's * place with West and Wilt, and Wilt would have been the MVP - Bird was that great of a teammate.

* And I have Baylor in my All-Time Top 20.
I don't believe magic was more of a team player than Bird. I dont recall much dissension among his squads either.

Larry was better defensively, he just can't match magic in terms of years served and chips

Tony_Starks
08-23-2013, 05:19 PM
People seriously underrate Showtime Lakers team defense. Magic wasn't a great one on one defender but his team defense was great. Bird as well.

How do you think they got on all those fast breaks....

KnicksorBust
08-23-2013, 05:21 PM
Hes talking about peak performance I believe.

And good 2nd question, kobe can try his hardest but effort has not been enough to keep his teams from ranking last defensively. Shaq when motivated is the kind of guy who can anchor a championship defense. Its the biggest reason shaq has always had a superior impact on their teams. Even if Shaq isn't among the best at his position like kobe may have been, u can't teach size.

Would you say it's better defensively to have a "very good center" and a "bad wing" than an "elite wing" and an "average center"?

Say... Asik-Harden vs. Bosh-LeBron

Hawkeye15
08-23-2013, 05:36 PM
It drives me crazy that you have Kobe out of your top 10 when his resume is so strong... but we've talked about this plenty before but I would like to hear your response to my question to Bruno.



How much do you value center defense vs. perimeter defense assuming both are comparable?

Example: Kobe's defensive impact vs. Shaq's defensive impact?

Interior defense is more important to me, since they defend the higher percentage areas.

And I do have Kobe hover around 9-12, just depends where I am at that day.

KingstonHawke
08-23-2013, 05:36 PM
I used to respect Jordan and Magic so much when they were playing. But now, not so much. They are both ridiculously bias, and constantly twist facts whenever it'll lead to keeping their legacy above others.

smith&wesson
08-23-2013, 05:54 PM
if rings are all that matters why are russel, kobe, and shaq not on the list.. they all have more than his good buddy bird.

OceanSpray
08-23-2013, 06:05 PM
it's really unfair to say no defense. he wasn't a bad defender whatsoever, he was an avg defender to slightly above avg (like say a 5 is an avg defender, he was about a 5.8, nothing to write home about, but still more good than bad, or at least avg, & not a liability ) it's not like he was Nash or Calderon out there getting torched, no he did his job ok on d, & his post up game was great, & a good reason he got so many assists is because he'd have to be doubled posting up then he's pass to the open guy. I think he was a fine scorer, he just looked for the assist first

He got so many assists because Worthy was an amazing slasher and because he had a great team. They played fast and that's why he racked up assists like magic. Okay, he had some defense.. But you can't be a top 3 player if you aren't a complete player. For example, Jordan is undoubtedly the greatest because he was an amazing defender and offensive player. Magic's defense isn't even worth mentioning.

OceanSpray
08-23-2013, 06:13 PM
because of what,volume? he's equal to slightly more efficient a scorer than lebron.magic took less shots because of role.he was a pass first pg playing with kareem,as kareem declined magic jumped to being a 20+ ppg scorer.how exactly is that mediocre?

He wasn't a good shooter, couldn't hit threes. The only way he scored was by post game and that's because he was miles taller than most PG's. I'm comparing Magic to scorers like MJ, Durant, Kobe. Magic was very limited. He can run the offense but he wasn't a great offensive player, or scorer.

RLundi
08-23-2013, 07:30 PM
Pathetic, Magic.

Vinny642
08-23-2013, 07:52 PM
Magic is an attention whore, whenever the attention isnt on him, he cries for it

Bruno
08-23-2013, 10:03 PM
Love this.
that's just how I see it. I want to look at a complete body of work within the context of which it was created (era/rules/teammates). It's cool for people to favor peak, I just think they need to clarify what they're talking about because it changes the discussion entirely. That's why all these debates and GOAT lists are so all over the place, people are debating different criteria.


I agree about Bird; Magic takes him on offense; and neither was great on defense.

I have Magic in my All-Time Top 5 because no one has ever been a better teammate - IF he's on your team, you automatically play your best ball. If I build an All-Time Team, he's the first player I pick because it's TEAM. I can't see any other player at all that was better than Magic at bringing the best out of his teammates.

Bird was awesome; but he also, simultaneous with Magic, had great teammates. Parish was top 5 Center "eternally". McHale was UNIQUE - impossible to stop with his unlimited number of offensive moves; and a terrific defender. Dennis Johnson was a great defender. Bill Walton was 6th-man-of-the-year quality; and a better defender that year than Bird. Other complimentary players were no slouches either: Ainge, Cornbread, etc. Yet with all this help; Bird only got 3 Chips. That's not enough for me to have him close to my top 5. His teams also suffered too many early-round Playoff eliminations; for him to rank higher for me.

On the other hand, his teamwork was second only to Magic's and that attitude/skill counts #1 for me; so he's gotta be in the Top 10. Like iirc bagwell said, you put Bird in Baylor's * place with West and Wilt, and Wilt would have been the MVP - Bird was that great of a teammate.

* And I have Baylor in my All-Time Top 20.

I feel ya. And trust me, I'm the guy who just said Magic "isn't in my top five" in regards to a basketball discussion (even if I was discussing peak and not overall career). I'm the one who has to explain myself, not you :cheers:




How much do you value center defense vs. perimeter defense assuming both are comparable?

Example: Kobe's defensive impact vs. Shaq's defensive impact?

the way I see it- the center has an unfair advantage over all guards defensively. size and the specific role of anchoring the basket as the biggest help defender once some one gets beat, it just puts them in position to be more important even if the lesser defensive player. wing player A might be a better given defender within his own position than center player B might be, but that doesn't mean that player B can't still give his team a bigger defensive impact due to size and positioning. the top ten leaders in defensive win-shares are all big men.

also in this era, wing players are at a disadvantage in terms of giving as big of a defensive impact as big men. wings can't hand-check in the traditional fashion and aren't allowed to get as physical as the bigs under the basket. I think because of the rules as well, it makes it really difficult for a guard in todays era to have as dominant a defensive impact. this works against wings like Kobe and for big men in terms of having as big an impact. it hurts his legacy and overall potential as a defender especially in defensive comparisons to those wings who came before him, but thats just the reality of the era he played. and in my opinion he can't be evaluated based of the hypothetical of what he could have done in a different era, he has to be evaluated based off what we saw of him and his impact, regardless of being held back by the rules(in a discussion of overall career defensive accomplishment/impact- there's gotta be that sense of reality and not potential of could have been in the evaluation). but in a discussion of I'm putting together a team with pre 1999 rules Kobe automatically becomes a much more valuable defender. I take him over Cooper who won DPOY at their peaks under the same rule book in that hypothetical. I just dont like to make my greatest lists based off any other hypothetical other than what we saw in their careers.

http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/david_aldridge/04/22/aldridge.defenses/


In 1999, the league eliminated contact by a defender with his hands and forearms both in the backcourt and frontcourt, except on offensive players who caught the ball below the free throw line extended. Defenses were also prohibited from "re-routing" players off the ball. This freed up perimeter players who used screens to get open. Nor were defenders able any more to grab or impede offensive players setting screens...
know what I mean? how is he or any wing supposed to have as big of a defensive impact if they can't do those things?


Moses was clearly better than DRob imo but advanced stats have grown to overrate The Admiral over the years.

advanced line overrates david robinson imo. hakeem and moses got him but advanced says otherwise.


People seriously underrate Showtime Lakers team defense. Magic wasn't a great one on one defender but his team defense was great. Bird as well.

How do you think they got on all those fast breaks....

Fair point on the fast breaks, but the 80s Lakers we never an elite defensive team. The best defensive team they ever rolled during a given championship season were the '85 & '87 Lakers (both teams were 7th/23 in defensive rating). The '80 & '82 Lakers were actually middle of the pack defensively. 3/5 of their championship squads were 1st in offensive rating and the other two were second.

Kyben36
08-23-2013, 10:37 PM
not a good list, Jordan #6 is awful. I mean, lebron not even top 5, I dont care who you are, Jordan over Bird at least.

Chronz
08-23-2013, 10:53 PM
Magic wasn't a great offensive player??

LMFAO

Just when I thought people couldn't get any sillier

Pablonovi
08-24-2013, 02:34 AM
I don't believe magic was more of a team player than Bird. I dont recall much dissension among his squads either.

Larry was better defensively, he just can't match magic in terms of years served and chips

Hey High Horse,
I didn't mean to imply ANY weakness in Bird's attitude to teamwork; rather that he was second All-Time ONLY to Magic. But exactly because Magic was the PG and Bird was "only" the SF, Magic DID accomplish/facilitate more teamwork than Bird could/did. If I'm right about Bird being second All-Time teamwork-attitude-wise, then of course his teams would have had about zero friction (and I don't remember ever seeing or even hearing about any - kudos to him and them).

Agreed Larry was better defensively. Also agreed that the difference in chips IS significant in terms of their overall All-Time ranking.

Minor point: If you subtract out Magic's brief return as a PF; when he wasn't the old Great Magic; just mostly "old"; there really isn't much of a difference in terms of years served, is there?

Pablonovi
08-24-2013, 02:51 AM
Magic wasn't a great offensive player??

LMFAO

Just when I thought people couldn't get any sillier

Hey High Horse,
Just "Yikes" to anyone pushing Magic's offensive game as NOT great. Yikes (sorry for the repeat, but Y...).

Put Magic at PG on any team in history, any team, any time, in all of NBA History; and that teams plays way the f___ better! Every single starter plays THE BEST he's capable of at that point in his career; any sub that plays while Magic is playing, does the best sub work he'd be capable of at that point in his career.

Imagine Magic with MJ??? MJ career-averaged 30 ppg. With Magic as his career PG, MJ averages 40; without exaggeration, and with considerably less wear and tear (working to get open shots)! Kobe goes from 25.5 to 35.5. Wilt??? Oh my goodness!!! He averaged 50.4 for an entire season; he might have averaged that for his career! and nailed 10 regular season MVPs and a bunch more Chips to boot.

NBA basketball is a TEAM sport; and, if you look up that word in the encyclopedia, you should see a picture of Magic Johnson - the near-perfect representative of that concept. His court-vision, his pin-point passing to each player's best sweet spot, his unselfishness, his full-court fast-break (which gave us the name "Show Time"); the man was an offensive wizard, genius... What monster compliment wouldn't fit???

Last thought, one of the All-Time Greats as an NBA commentator, at least as far as commentating on the All-Time Greats was Bill Walton. He grouped 4 All-Time Greats in a special group of 4 guys who could get 40 points ANY time it was needed; those were: MJ, KAJ, Wilt and ... Magic. The other 3 often did go off for 40; but Magic knew that wasn't the key to "winning time" on "his" teams; instead, it was his passing. And he was spot on right!

imo there are there are only 2 players who wouldn't have even needed to score a single point and still would have been offensive GIANTS: Magic and Stockton - they were that awesome at "piloting" an offense, making all their teammates shine; and making that TEAM a great TEAM. And, of course, between the two, Magic IS way greater than Stockton.

JasonJohnHorn
08-24-2013, 01:14 PM
The reach is you're misleading thread title insinuating Magic had a problem not being in the top 3 when in fact he actually said nothing close to that and complemented Lebron.

But it worked because apparently nobody even bothered to read what was really said and just ran with it....

Obviously Magic did have a problem with the list... as his twitter post implies... he things rings matter more and that Dr. J should be behind him. How is that a reach?

SLY WILLIAMS
08-24-2013, 01:43 PM
MJ? Yes

Bird? Yes

Dr J? I think Lebron was probably too young to have judged Dr J fully but he was also young for Magic, and Bird, and Kareem.

Pablonovi
08-24-2013, 03:39 PM
MJ? Yes

Bird? Yes

Dr J? I think Lebron was probably too young to have judged Dr J fully but he was also young for Magic, and Bird, and Kareem.

Hey SLY WILLIAMS,
Speaking only for myself, I am NOT in LeBron's confidence, even a little tiny bit. So, I just can't even guess why he tweeted what he tweeted. It COULD be:
1) What he sincerely believes;
2) That he's already changed his mind;
3) That he was playing a public practical joke on some or all of the named and unnamed players;
4) That this is some "inside-joke" between him and Magic; we might eventually find out; maybe not?;
5) That he's clueless on this issue and felt, "What better way to become informed than to start a sh_t-storm?"
6) LeBron wants ONTO the Lakers next year; and somehow he thinks this will sneak him in!!!;
PLUS *:
7) None of all 1-6 of the above;
8) Some of all 1-7 of the above;
9) All of all 1-8 of the above.

*Think of options 7 thru 9 as: the "advanced stats" -type options. [warning: for deep-thinkers & space-cadets, only!]

Given all, some or none of the above, my own humbled opinion is:
I don't give a crap; because I have NO idea what this is really all about.
And it IS going to affect exactly ZILCH, NADA, NOTHING!
Yours sincerely (hehe),
Pablo

SportsFanatic10
08-24-2013, 03:47 PM
magic should be in the top 3 imo, but his rings reasoning is stupid.

Chronz
08-24-2013, 06:47 PM
Hey High Horse,
I didn't mean to imply ANY weakness in Bird's attitude to teamwork; rather that he was second All-Time ONLY to Magic. But exactly because Magic was the PG and Bird was "only" the SF, Magic DID accomplish/facilitate more teamwork than Bird could/did. If I'm right about Bird being second All-Time teamwork-attitude-wise, then of course his teams would have had about zero friction (and I don't remember ever seeing or even hearing about any - kudos to him and them).
Magic's team had friction precisely because he wanted to be a PG and could not wait any longer. And because of his public ousting of a coach that just won a chip with him. It was a small blip but pretty significant when compared to Bird, whos biggest gripe (to my knowledge) with his teammates was that they weren't fulfilling their potential. Like when McHale was having one of his greatest years and Bird was angry at him for not trying to win MVP by raising up the intensity a few notches.


Still, if we ignore that and focus on the argument that being a PG is what makes Magic more of a team player. Then what makes Bird more worthy than the abundance of OTHER PG's? Guys like West, Big-O, Stockton were all more offensive orchestrators with the ball.

And I think the fact that Bird played more without the ball than Magic is a sign of TEAM WORK. Bird didn't need the ball like Magic to be a team player. Bird is the greatest glue guy to ever play IMO. Guys like Shane Battier are consummate team players because their impact gos beyond ball handling chores. They literally dont need the ball to make the game easier for teammates.



Minor point: If you subtract out Magic's brief return as a PF; when he wasn't the old Great Magic; just mostly "old"; there really isn't much of a difference in terms of years served, is there?
No because Bird's final 4 seasons were pitiful by comparison.

Pablonovi
08-24-2013, 08:04 PM
Magic's team had friction precisely because he wanted to be a PG and could not wait any longer. And because of his public ousting of a coach that just won a chip with him. It was a small blip but pretty significant when compared to Bird, whos biggest gripe (to my knowledge) with his teammates was that they weren't fulfilling their potential. Like when McHale was having one of his greatest years and Bird was angry at him for not trying to win MVP by raising up the intensity a few notches.


Still, if we ignore that and focus on the argument that being a PG is what makes Magic more of a team player. Then what makes Bird more worthy than the abundance of OTHER PG's? Guys like West, Big-O, Stockton were all more offensive orchestrators with the ball.

And I think the fact that Bird played more without the ball than Magic is a sign of TEAM WORK. Bird didn't need the ball like Magic to be a team player. Bird is the greatest glue guy to ever play IMO. Guys like Shane Battier are consummate team players because their impact gos beyond ball handling chores. They literally dont need the ball to make the game easier for teammates.



No because Bird's final 4 seasons were pitiful by comparison.

Hey High Horse,
I think I'm mostly posting this more out of respect for you generally, and this your post in particular; than because of any significant supposed difference of opinion between us; i.e., if I didn't respond at all - that seems a disrespectful non-response to the effort you put into yours; and, then, there's your usual clear-thinking and memory for details - that merits something from me. (Did that make any sense at all?)

So, on your first and last points vis--vis historical things: Yes, agreed that Magic DID go off and DID force the change to get him to be PG which then produced the great Show-Time. And yes, Bird's final 4 seasons were clearly inferior to his Peak, and series of years where he ranked #1 or #2 in the MVP-voting.

I did NOT want to imply that Magic's "genius" at teamwork was solely due to being a PG. Better said: his love of teamwork was brought to fruition thru his genius use of the PG spot to orchestrate the symphony that was Show-Time.

As usual, I don't see any big gap in our perceptions/interpretations of things; in this case, about these two All-Time Greats, particularly in terms of their awesome teamwork attitudes. I suppose I could be convinced that Bird actually out-teamworked Magic (although that'd be a little tough for me to swallow out of a (perhaps) personal "bias" due to having believed Magic was #1 for, well since, he first took over as PG - so that's what 30+ years.)

About Bird's upset with McHale for lacking a Bird-like total-drive to reach the highest level that year - I thank you for that memory - a lot of times you seem to function for me as my long-term memory (similar to Hawk and bagwell, and a precious few others - better said, a few precious others - precious for their memories and willingness to graciously share them).

It's like I experienced all this stuff; but you guys still have it on easy-recall; and I have to depend on you-all's easy recall to bring up the same stuff out of my un-easy recall system. How can I "safe-face"? Maybe, hehe, by saying, "Wait til you're my age?" Pretty silly, huh? (That wouldn't work with bagwell anyway, he's in his 60s too).

Overall, another fine post to your credit.

Chronz
08-24-2013, 09:05 PM
Id say what I think of your posting style but Ive already gotten an infraction for it because they took it as a bait post. Still, PSD is definitely more interesting with you around now.

Pablonovi
08-24-2013, 10:27 PM
Id say what I think of your posting style but Ive already gotten an infraction for it because they took it as a bait post. Still, PSD is definitely more interesting with you around now.

Hey High Horse,
I remember the sequence that led to your infraction. In chronological order it went like this:
1) One of the regular posters was running his (my paraphrasing:) "I knew from the beginning that bean was just a glorified substitute. After I watch a player's first 5 years; I already know how his career is gonna turn out."

2) I tried to suggest to that poster that he think about how he might feel in the future looking back on his own teenage weaknesses. (Just trying to help, was I).

3) You came back with something like:
"You ... are ... unique ... breh." (the dots yours).

4) I took that as a compliment (similar to what you've just said here, "Still, PSD is definitely more interesting with you around now.")

5) A Mod deleted your "...unique..." post; fearing it was a bait post. (And my response post; thanking yours).

6) I PMd the mod suggesting you were NOT baiting; I was hoping your post could be "re-stored". That may not even be possible. In any event, it was not restored.
------
About my posting style. Yeah, I'm definitely aware that I come across as weird (hopefully good weird). I do try (constantly) to tone my stuff down; but it's just no use ... it seems like the more I try to limit the weirdness, the more weird it gets! I guess it's like my mind has a mind of its own.

tmacsc2
08-24-2013, 11:17 PM
Cause magic is like that guy that is really good player on the court but nobody wants to hangout with him off the court. Cause he is annoying and boring.