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JohnSnow
08-22-2013, 01:16 PM
I always hear discussions of "who is/was the greatest in their sport". All are debatable. MJ is prolly the only true unanimous No 1 at his sport, or at least 99% No 1. Who else besides MJ is the true No. 1 in their sport? Rest of the other sports all have debatable true No. 1 greatest player.

Basketball: 1. MJ
Baseball: 1. Babe Ruth, Hank Aaron, Griffey Jr, Dimaggio
Football: 1. Rice, Montana
Soccer: 1. Pele, Messi
Golf: 1. Nicklaus, Tiger
Hockey: 1. Gretzkey, (don't know much about hockey to know if he is unanimous.)
Boxing: 1. Ali, Tyson (take out the popularity of Ali)
Skateboard: 1. THawk, (dont know much about this either)

I feel all sports have either No 1 and 1A greatest players besides Basketball. What is your opinion?

LAKERMANIA
08-22-2013, 01:18 PM
In soccer it's Pele and Maradona

Hockey is pretty much unanimous but many believe if Lemieux were not injured he would have broken all of Gretzky's records

Hawkeye15
08-22-2013, 01:24 PM
Hockey is the only other sport I know where 99% of people will give one name.

jerellh528
08-22-2013, 01:26 PM
Swimming phelps.

Ebbs
08-22-2013, 01:26 PM
Gretzky...

MrfadeawayJB
08-22-2013, 01:27 PM
Jordan, Gretzky, Joey chestnut

Kobe2324
08-22-2013, 01:28 PM
basketball and hockey will have a majority vote for MJ and gretzky, Lemieux will get a lot of votes just like chamberland or russel would but i dont really consider them close s most people dont either, every other sport does have 2 or 3 other guys you can really debate

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-22-2013, 01:29 PM
Jordan, Gretzky, Joey chestnut

HAHAHAHAHHA! Joey is beast.

b@llhog24
08-22-2013, 01:31 PM
Hockey as well.

jerellh528
08-22-2013, 01:31 PM
Only american sports?

Eagles4Lyfe
08-22-2013, 01:32 PM
Wayne easily, will never be over taken or compared to with other star players.

Whereas MJ always is brought up in comparison to guys like Kobe, Lebron etc...

Wayne is more of a sure thing at number 1 in his sport than MJ is IMO

Hawkeye15
08-22-2013, 01:35 PM
Wayne easily, will never be over taken or compared to with other star players.

Whereas MJ always is brought up in comparison to guys like Kobe, Lebron etc...

Wayne is more of a sure thing at number 1 in his sport than MJ is IMO

I don't think more than 1-2% of people polled would say anyone outside MJ.

The same guys who say "Wilt", are the same 65 year old dudes who would say, "Howe".

Hawkeye15
08-22-2013, 01:36 PM
Jordan, Gretzky, Joey chestnut

while what Joey does is amazing, in no way, shape, or form is that a sport.

BigBlueCrew
08-22-2013, 01:37 PM
Jordan, Gretzky, Joey chestnut

I hate to tell ya, but Joey lost......

http://www.tmz.com/2013/08/19/joey-chestnut-matt-stonie-gyoza-video/

KnicksorBust
08-22-2013, 01:37 PM
I have to agree with the rest. Wayne Gretzky just crushed hockey at a level that dwarfs what MJ did. He ended his career with 2857 points. Messier (Who is 2nd) is like 1000 points behind him. Jari Kurri has LESS THAN HALF as many points (1398) and is in the top 20 of all-time.

Statistically hell you could argue Wilt is more like Gretzky and Babe Ruth than MJ ever was.

Hawkeye15
08-22-2013, 01:39 PM
I have to agree with the rest. Wayne Gretzky just crushed hockey at a level that dwarfs what MJ did. He ended his career with 2857 points. Messier (Who is 2nd) is like 1000 points behind him. Jari Kurri has LESS THAN HALF as many points (1398) and is in the top 20 of all-time.

Statistically hell you could argue Wilt is more like Gretzky and Babe Ruth than MJ ever was.

but this is more about perception for the masses, in which case MJ is head and shoulders above any other NBA player ever in the masses eyes.

jaydubb
08-22-2013, 01:39 PM
Jordan, Gretzky, Joey chestnut

:laugh2:

Eagles4Lyfe
08-22-2013, 01:43 PM
I don't think more than 1-2% of people polled would say anyone outside MJ.

The same guys who say "Wilt", are the same 65 year old dudes who would say, "Howe".

Ay I live in Canada and you never hear anyone bringing up competition for Gretzky, like they do on this site which kinda shocks me lol.
But MJ, everywhere whether its PSD or anywhere I go and people are talking about ball, they ALWAYS say Kobe or Lebron are this and that, comparing em to MJ.

JohnSnow
08-22-2013, 01:47 PM
I was going to add sprinters: 1. Bolt, Michael Johnson

Hawkeye15
08-22-2013, 01:48 PM
Ay I live in Canada and you never hear anyone bringing up competition for Gretzky, like they do on this site which kinda shocks me lol.
But MJ, everywhere whether its PSD or anywhere I go and people are talking about ball, they ALWAYS say Kobe or Lebron are this and that, comparing em to MJ.

then smack them dude. Kobe is not in his realm, and Bron is mid career, and not even close right now.

The only rational answers outside Jordan (by rational, I mean answers that aren't complete b.s.), are KAJ or Wilt. And frankly, neither really have a strong case when you start pumping out all the facts.

Hawkeye15
08-22-2013, 01:49 PM
where the hell is JB with his 74 page printout of MJ when you need him?

Kuya_Clive
08-22-2013, 02:44 PM
Shaun white in snowboarding half pipe is probably clear cut number one.

abe_froman
08-22-2013, 02:49 PM
I always hear discussions of "who is/was the greatest in their sport". All are debatable. MJ is prolly the only true unanimous No 1 at his sport, or at least 99% No 1. Who else besides MJ is the true No. 1 in their sport? Rest of the other sports all have debatable true No. 1 greatest player.

Basketball: 1. MJ
Baseball: 1. Babe Ruth, Hank Aaron, Griffey Jr, Dimaggio
Football: 1. Rice, Montana
Soccer: 1. Pele, Messi
Golf: 1. Nicklaus, Tiger
Hockey: 1. Gretzkey, (don't know much about hockey to know if he is unanimous.)
Boxing: 1. Ali, Tyson (take out the popularity of Ali)
Skateboard: 1. THawk, (dont know much about this either)

I feel all sports have either No 1 and 1A greatest players besides Basketball. What is your opinion?
your joking naming the bolded right?

Heatcheck
08-22-2013, 02:54 PM
I always hear discussions of "who is/was the greatest in their sport". All are debatable. MJ is prolly the only true unanimous No 1 at his sport, or at least 99% No 1. Who else besides MJ is the true No. 1 in their sport? Rest of the other sports all have debatable true No. 1 greatest player.

Basketball: 1. MJ
Baseball: 1. Babe Ruth, Hank Aaron, Griffey Jr, Dimaggio
Football: 1. Rice, Montana
Soccer: 1. Pele, Messi
Golf: 1. Nicklaus, Tiger
Hockey: 1. Gretzkey, (don't know much about hockey to know if he is unanimous.)
Boxing: 1. Ali, Tyson (take out the popularity of Ali)
Skateboard: 1. THawk, (dont know much about this either)

I feel all sports have either No 1 and 1A greatest players besides Basketball. What is your opinion?

Or boxing or Baseball or soccer

CubsFan/Realist
08-22-2013, 02:54 PM
I think you have to include Sweetness in the discussion for football, as well as Jim Brown

JoeBlessU
08-22-2013, 03:03 PM
Hockey is the only other sport I know where 99% of people will give one name.

Ahhhhhh Bobby Orr ring a bell?..Probably not, Hockey is a mans sports. How about Mario lemiuex? Gordie Howe? Patrick Roy? Rocket Richard? Bobby Hull?...List could go on...

Hawkeye15
08-22-2013, 03:10 PM
Ahhhhhh Bobby Orr ring a bell?..Probably not, Hockey is a mans sports.

sure he does, but you will have a hard time convincing 99% of the masses that Wayne isn't the greatest hockey player of all time.

What is with the last comment?

abe_froman
08-22-2013, 03:14 PM
Ahhhhhh Bobby Orr ring a bell?..Probably not, Hockey is a mans sports.

i'd put howe,mess,mario and several others before i get to orr

JoeBlessU
08-22-2013, 03:17 PM
sure he does, but you will have a hard time convincing 99% of the masses that Wayne isn't the greatest hockey player of all time.

What is with the last comment?

Bobby orr, IMO was a better player than wayne gretzky, gretzky was a great scorer, thats about it.

http://********.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=339230

There had this argument on a hockey thread.. Most people, who knew what they were talking about, chose bobby orr

Gordie Howe was awesome as well. The gordie howe hatrick..Score a goal, assist on a goal, and get into a fight lol. He also did it all.

OceanSpray
08-22-2013, 03:18 PM
It has to be Phelps at this point. I don't watch hockey but Phelps has done it all in swimming. Broke every record. Undeniably the greatest at his sport.

JoeBlessU
08-22-2013, 03:19 PM
i'd put howe,mess,mario and several others before i get to orr

Thats preposterous...Lets compare each of their best seasons..Keeping in mind orr was defenseman

Gretzky :1984-85 Edmonton Oilers NHL (G)80 (Gls)73 (A)135 (pts)208 (pm)52 (+/-) +98

Orr: 1970-71 Boston NHL (G)78 (Gls)37 (A)102 (Pts)139 (pm)91 (+/-) +124

The +124 is an NHL record..again..for a defenseman

el hidalgo
08-22-2013, 03:21 PM
Bobby orr, IMO was a better player than wayne gretzky, gretzky was a great scorer, thats about it.

http://********.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=339230

There had this argument on a hockey thread.. Most people, who knew what they were talking about, chose bobby orr

Gordie Howe was awesome as well. The gordie howe hatrick..Score a goal, assist on a goal, and get into a fight lol. He also did it all.
picking orr over gretzky is just the trendy thing to do

IKnowHoops
08-22-2013, 03:21 PM
Wayne has more asst than any other player has points ( asst and goals combined) Wayne has the number 1 spot on lock. Tony Hawk has it on lock too. In boxing most would say Sugar Ray Robinson, but Roy Jones Jr would of destroyed him prime vs prime so boxing is up in the air but Sugar won like around 200 fights including his first 120 or so.

Heatcheck
08-22-2013, 03:22 PM
Ahhhhhh Bobby Orr ring a bell?..Probably not, Hockey is a mans sports. How about Mario lemiuex? Gordie Howe? Patrick Roy? Rocket Richard? Bobby Hull?...List could go on...

because they bang into each other real hard?

JoeBlessU
08-22-2013, 03:23 PM
picking orr over gretzky is just the trendy thing to do

Trendy and correct. http://********.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=339230

These guys know what they are talking about..

Swarley91
08-22-2013, 03:23 PM
Um, tennis? Roger Federer? No other athlete has dominated an era in a sport as much as he did from 2005 to 2007, winning 8 out of the 10 grand slams and making the finals in all of them. Honestly, not even Jordan compares to what he did.

JoeBlessU
08-22-2013, 03:24 PM
because they bang into each other real hard?

No because they dont go flying across the court and start flailing theirs arms at the refs while the play is going the other way.

IKnowHoops
08-22-2013, 03:25 PM
I was going to add sprinters: 1. Bolt, Michael Johnson

Bolt is definitely the G.O.A.T (WR in 100, WR in 200) = G.O.A.T Easily

JohnSnow
08-22-2013, 03:26 PM
Good point. Forgot about Fed. Although, he did get owned by Nadal now and then.


Um, tennis? Roger Federer? No other athlete has dominated an era in a sport as much as he did from 2005 to 2007, winning 8 out of the 10 grand slams and making the finals in all of them. Honestly, not even Jordan compares to what he did.

IKnowHoops
08-22-2013, 03:27 PM
I think you have to include Sweetness in the discussion for football, as well as Jim Brown

IMO Barry Sanders is the greatest football player who ever lived

IKnowHoops
08-22-2013, 03:28 PM
your joking naming the bolded right?

If not for injury Griffey Jr was on pace to being the G.O.A.T. And from a talent aspect, he may be the G.O.A.T.

IKnowHoops
08-22-2013, 03:31 PM
Ahhhhhh Bobby Orr ring a bell?..Probably not, Hockey is a mans sports. How about Mario lemiuex? Gordie Howe? Patrick Roy? Rocket Richard? Bobby Hull?...List could go on...

Common man, noone thinks Booby Hull or Patrick Roy is better than the Great One. And as far as the others go, they are like Wilt, and KAJ to Mike.

abe_froman
08-22-2013, 03:33 PM
Thats preposterous...Lets compare each of their best seasons..Keeping in mind orr was defenseman

Gretzky :1984-85 Edmonton Oilers NHL (G)80 (Gls)73 (A)135 (pts)208 (pm)52 (+/-) +98

Orr: 1970-71 Boston NHL (G)78 (Gls)37 (A)102 (Pts)139 (pm)91 (+/-) +124

The +124 is an NHL record..again..for a defenseman
all time rankings have to do with career and not one season,and orr falls short on longevity which def hurts him when your talking best of all time

IKnowHoops
08-22-2013, 03:33 PM
Bobby orr, IMO was a better player than wayne gretzky, gretzky was a great scorer, thats about it.

http://********.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=339230

There had this argument on a hockey thread.. Most people, who knew what they were talking about, chose bobby orr

Gordie Howe was awesome as well. The gordie howe hatrick..Score a goal, assist on a goal, and get into a fight lol. He also did it all.

Considering Gretsky has more assists than any player has goals and assist combined, your statement is pure B.S.

abe_froman
08-22-2013, 03:34 PM
If not for injury Griffey Jr was on pace to being the G.O.A.T. And from a talent aspect, he may be the G.O.A.T.

how so?

JoeBlessU
08-22-2013, 03:34 PM
Common man, noone thinks Booby Hull or Patrick Roy is better than the Great One. And as far as the others go, they are like Wilt, and KAJ to Mike.

I never said they were better than Wayne.. That was in response to Hawkeye saying 99% of people can only name Wayne as the greatest of all time. Those guys are all top 5-10 guys.. Wayne is not hands down the GOAT, he never won a cup after he left edmonton

IKnowHoops
08-22-2013, 03:34 PM
It has to be Phelps at this point. I don't watch hockey but Phelps has done it all in swimming. Broke every record. Undeniably the greatest at his sport.

Phelps is easily the G.O.A.T.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
08-22-2013, 03:34 PM
Mike Tyson isn't the greatest boxer ever... wtf. I wouldn't say Rice or Montana were the best football players ever either...

Heatcheck
08-22-2013, 03:34 PM
Bolt is definitely the G.O.A.T (WR in 100, WR in 200) = G.O.A.T Easily

Roids

5ass
08-22-2013, 03:35 PM
I miss tony hawks' pro skater video game on PS1

Heatcheck
08-22-2013, 03:35 PM
Mike Tyson isn't the greatest boxer ever... wtf. I wouldn't say Rice or Montana were the best football players ever either...

Mike tyson wasnt the best heavywieght ever, let alone the best boxer ever

JoeBlessU
08-22-2013, 03:36 PM
Considering Gretsky has more assists than any player has goals and assist combined, your statement is pure B.S.

lol Just stop dude, you clearly know nothing about hockey history. Kareem and Karl malone had more points than Jordan, does that make them better? Nooooooooooooo.... Ur argument is lame.

Bobby orr was a defenseman, not a forward. He has an NHL record for +/- at 124. Gretzkys career high was like +93

IKnowHoops
08-22-2013, 03:36 PM
Um, tennis? Roger Federer? No other athlete has dominated an era in a sport as much as he did from 2005 to 2007, winning 8 out of the 10 grand slams and making the finals in all of them. Honestly, not even Jordan compares to what he did.

Can't forget Serena Williams, she is still a beast

Heatcheck
08-22-2013, 03:36 PM
No because they dont go flying across the court and start flailing theirs arms at the refs while the play is going the other way.

oh ok cool

IKnowHoops
08-22-2013, 03:41 PM
how so?

He was player of the decade from 90-2000 then started getting hurt. Best swing of all time. Natural in steroid era. Thats a heck of a pace. There are only a couple player of the decade guys out there. Player of the decade is a great start to best ever. You just can't get hurt after that.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
08-22-2013, 03:43 PM
Mike tyson wasnt the best heavywieght ever, let alone the best boxer ever

Lol For real tho!

OceanSpray
08-22-2013, 03:43 PM
Sorry, but Tyson in his prime would hands down destroy any boxer. It's unfortunate he had terrible management. He could've been the greatest boxer with the way he was boxing. But, I can name boxers who deserve to be put up against Tyson. I can't name one swimmer who comes close to Phelps. Not even Spitzer himself.

IKnowHoops
08-22-2013, 03:46 PM
He was player of the decade from 90-2000 then started getting hurt. Best swing of all time. Natural in steroid era. Thats a heck of a pace. There are only a couple player of the decade guys out there. Player of the decade is a great start to best ever. You just can't get hurt after that.


I never said they were better than Wayne.. That was in response to Hawkeye saying 99% of people can only name Wayne as the greatest of all time. Those guys are all top 5-10 guys.. Wayne is not hands down the GOAT, he never won a cup after he left edmonton

More assists than any other player has goals and assists combined disagrees with your statement. What else does a guy gotta do. He just made a mockery of everyone elses stats with that. Wayne is hands down the G.O.A.T.

abe_froman
08-22-2013, 03:48 PM
He was player of the decade from 90-2000 then started getting hurt. Best swing of all time. Natural in steroid era. Thats a heck of a pace. There are only a couple player of the decade guys out there. Player of the decade is a great start to best ever. You just can't get hurt after that.
how was he player of the decade? bonds destroys him all through the 90's

IKnowHoops
08-22-2013, 03:49 PM
lol Just stop dude, you clearly know nothing about hockey history. Kareem and Karl malone had more points than Jordan, does that make them better? Nooooooooooooo.... Ur argument is lame.

Bobby orr was a defenseman, not a forward. He has an NHL record for +/- at 124. Gretzkys career high was like +93

Dude and you think you bringing up 1 season is better than me bringing up an entire career. You need to go to sleep on this one dude. Your not making any sense bringing up one stat that happened one year thinking it holds more weight than all the career records wayne has. Anyway you said all wayne could do was score and that clearly means you know nothing about hockey history. How can the career asst leader only be good at scoring. Thats like saying all John Stockton can do is score. You understand how stupid you sound saying this about the great one.

Heatcheck
08-22-2013, 03:50 PM
Sorry, but Tyson in his prime would hands down destroy any boxer. It's unfortunate he had terrible management. He could've been the greatest boxer with the way he was boxing. But, I can name boxers who deserve to be put up against Tyson. I can't name one swimmer who comes close to Phelps. Not even Spitzer himself.

Would destroy them based on what? that he use to beat up Marvis Frazier and sammy scaff? what happened when he fought a 34 yr old Holyfield? look how terrible he looked against Mitch Green or any boxer who A) wasnt too ***** to ball up when they saw him coming and b) had any kind of length on him?

JoeBlessU
08-22-2013, 03:51 PM
More assists than any other player has goals and assists combined disagrees with your statement. What else does a guy gotta do. He just made a mockery of everyone elses stats with that. Wayne is hands down the G.O.A.T.

Okay..So Kareem and Karl malone were better players than MJ?..I mean, they scored more points than him. That automatically makes them the GOAT? Wayne is #2 IMO. Bobby Orr was it.

As i have posted before... http://********.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=339230 ..These guys know what they are talking about. Read it and get back to me please

OceanSpray
08-22-2013, 03:52 PM
Would destroy them based on what? that he use to beat up Marvis Frazier and sammy scaff? what happened when he fought a 34 yr old Holyfield? look how terrible he looked against Mitch Green or any boxer who A) wasnt too ***** to ball up when they saw him coming and b) had any kind of length on him?

Dude, do you even watch boxing? I said prime Tyson. When Tyson fought Holyfield, he wasn't in his prime. Drugs and him getting out of shape ultimately killed his career. That's why I said terrible management. His managers should've kept him in check.

OceanSpray
08-22-2013, 03:53 PM
how was he player of the decade? bonds destroys him all through the 90's

Bonds take steroids, disqualified.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
08-22-2013, 03:54 PM
Sorry, but Tyson in his prime would hands down destroy any boxer. It's unfortunate he had terrible management. He could've been the greatest boxer with the way he was boxing. But, I can name boxers who deserve to be put up against Tyson. I can't name one swimmer who comes close to Phelps. Not even Spitzer himself.

Tyson would destroy any boxer in his prime?

Like Buster Douglas? Like Evander Holyfield?

Tyson was a helluva boxer, and one of my favorites of all time. One OF the greats for sure, but not top 3 boxers, and I could even argue he isn't even a top 3 HW ever.

PhillyFaninLA
08-22-2013, 03:55 PM
Gretzky...

I think Mario Lemieux was better, but wasn't healthy enough...what he did was on par with Gretzky and without nearly the talent Gretzky had.

IKnowHoops
08-22-2013, 03:55 PM
how was he player of the decade? bonds destroys him all through the 90's

No he doesn't. Check the stats. Bonds most HR before he juiced was 47-48. Griffey had 58. And I didn't give out the award. Major league baseball gave out the award. Griffey was also a better fielder. Juiced Bonds is obviously the greatest baseball player who ever lived but before he got on juice, Griffey's power stats were better. HR and RBI's that is. Then in 98 Bonds went super sayin on the juice and the rest is history.

monzternipz12
08-22-2013, 03:57 PM
Dude, do you even watch boxing? I said prime Tyson. When Tyson fought Holyfield, he wasn't in his prime. Drugs and him getting out of shape ultimately killed his career. That's why I said terrible management. His managers should've kept him in check.

I don't know how anyone could argue against PRIME Tyson. How do you become a heavyweight champion at 19?!!! Dude looked like the damn hulk at 19! He could've been the greatest if he wasn't so stupid.

dtmagnet
08-22-2013, 03:57 PM
Bobby orr, IMO was a better player than wayne gretzky, gretzky was a great scorer, thats about it.

http://********.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=339230

There had this argument on a hockey thread.. Most people, who knew what they were talking about, chose bobby orr

Gordie Howe was awesome as well. The gordie howe hatrick..Score a goal, assist on a goal, and get into a fight lol. He also did it all.

Gretzky was a better passer than he was a scorer, and he's the greatest scorer ever.

IKnowHoops
08-22-2013, 03:58 PM
Tyson would destroy any boxer in his prime?

Like Buster Douglas? Like Evander Holyfield?

Tyson was a helluva boxer, and one of my favorites of all time.

Tyson wasn't close to the same fighter after Cus died. He was a machine and the youngest heavyweight of all time because he trained harder than any fighter. he ran 5 miles every morning no matter what. After Cus died all his hard worked ceased and so did any shot at being the greatest. A Prime Mike could beat any boxer ever.

PhillyFaninLA
08-22-2013, 03:59 PM
Roids

prove it

AIMelo=KillaDUO
08-22-2013, 04:00 PM
I don't know how anyone could argue against PRIME Tyson. How do you become a heavyweight champion at 19?!!! Dude looked like the damn hulk at 19! He could've been the greatest if he wasn't so stupid.

Nobody is saying that Tyson isn't an all time great. But, to say he's 1, or 1B all time, is ridiculous. He's a great fighter, yes, but he isn't even a top 3 heavyweight ever.

Heatcheck
08-22-2013, 04:00 PM
Dude, do you even watch boxing? I said prime Tyson. When Tyson fought Holyfield, he wasn't in his prime. Drugs and him getting out of shape ultimately killed his career. That's why I said terrible management. His managers should've kept him in check.

i guess i have to spell this out for you. Prime tyson beat who? who did prime tyson beat that makes you feel like he would destroy any other boxer? he beat a bunch of nobodys who werent **** when they fought him and never became **** afterwards (Frazier and Scaff). Mitch Greene was another nobody, whom tyson struggled with, simply because of his length, all mitch greene had to do was not be intimidated by tyson and "the greatest boxer ever" struggled with him and about 2 or 3 other longer fighters, who were also garbage.
Holyfield is a perfect example of him fighting legitimate competition and just getting outboxed.

PhillyFaninLA
08-22-2013, 04:00 PM
Tyson wasn't close to the same fighter after Cus died. He was a machine and the youngest heavyweight of all time because he trained harder than any fighter. he ran 5 miles every morning no matter what. After Cus died all his hard worked ceased and so did any shot at being the greatest. A Prime Mike could beat any boxer ever.

No he wasn't, prime Mike had a glass jaw...he was lightning quick, and fast as a middleweight but once he got hit the first time he was done

AIMelo=KillaDUO
08-22-2013, 04:01 PM
Tyson wasn't close to the same fighter after Cus died. He was a machine and the youngest heavyweight of all time because he trained harder than any fighter. he ran 5 miles every morning no matter what. After Cus died all his hard worked ceased and so did any shot at being the greatest. A Prime Mike could beat any boxer ever.

I'm not talkin about woulda, coulda,shouldas, I'm talkin about what IS. Tyson is one of my favorites ever, but he isn't the greatest boxer ever. Nor is he the greatest heavyweight ever.

abe_froman
08-22-2013, 04:02 PM
No he doesn't. Check the stats. Bonds most HR before he juiced was 47-48. Griffey had 58. And I didn't give out the award. Major league baseball gave out the award. Griffey was also a better fielder. Juiced Bonds is obviously the greatest baseball player who ever lived but before he got on juice, Griffey's power stats were better. HR and RBI's that is. Then in 98 Bonds went super sayin on the juice and the rest is history.
bonds war during 90's-90
kgj-67
even omitting 98 and 99 for bonds-he still had a higher war for the decade,wrc average,ect. than griffey.griffey was more liked,was a media savvy player,promoted better.but better? no.i mean hell bonds won 3 mvp's in the 90's before 98,he wasnt exactly behind

LanceUpperCut
08-22-2013, 04:02 PM
The great one was hands down the best ever and this is coming from a die hard Mario fan who I would but tied for second with Orr. Gretzky in the 80's was so far ahead of his time it's crazy.


I'd also say Pele was a clear cut number 1 along with Federer. But as for baseball and football it's to hard to tell so much history in those sports especially baseball.

conway429
08-22-2013, 04:02 PM
Okay..So Kareem and Karl malone were better players than MJ?..I mean, they scored more points than him. That automatically makes them the GOAT? Wayne is #2 IMO. Bobby Orr was it.

As i have posted before... http://********.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=339230 ..These guys know what they are talking about. Read it and get back to me please


Did you really just post a link to a thread in a sports forum as a source, and proof to support your claim?

AIMelo=KillaDUO
08-22-2013, 04:03 PM
Thank you heatcheck! Anytime Tyson faced a serious apponent, he was exposed. Let's call a spade a spade.

Suddenly dudes in the NBA forum wanna talk boxing... lol. Come to the boxing forum. I've never seen any of yall in there!

John Walls Era
08-22-2013, 04:03 PM
I don't follow hockey, but I have no idea how Gretzky was able to have those kinds of stats. Its almost impossible to rival Gretzky in hockey.

Sandman
08-22-2013, 04:03 PM
Gretzky is probably more unanimous than MJ

OceanSpray
08-22-2013, 04:04 PM
i guess i have to spell this out for you. Prime tyson beat who? who did prime tyson beat that makes you feel like he would destroy any other boxer? he beat a bunch of nobodys who werent **** when they fought him and never became **** afterwards (Frazier and Scaff). Mitch Greene was another nobody, whom tyson struggled with, simply because of his length, all mitch greene had to do was not be intimidated by tyson and "the greatest boxer ever" struggled with him and about 2 or 3 other longer fighters, who were also garbage.
Holyfield is a perfect example of him fighting legitimate competition and just getting outboxed.

Lol, I guess you didn't watch Tyson in his prime. His work ethic when he was motivated was insane. Yes, the competition wasn't as great but Tyson destroyed each and every one of them. Against Holyfield, he took a damn 4 years break and got fat/lost his motivation. He needed more money and that's why he went back to fight. He wasn't close to Mike Tyson in his prime..

JoeBlessU
08-22-2013, 04:04 PM
Did you really just post a link to a thread in a sports forum as a source, and proof to support your claim?

Clearly you didnt read it.. It's people who actually know what the hell they are talking about. They all say Orr, as do I.

Heatcheck
08-22-2013, 04:04 PM
prove it

same thing i heard with Flo Jo, Lewis, Michael Johnson, McGwire, Bonds, Clemens, Pujols, Ortiz, Pac and on and on....Prove it? i dont have to, i have common sense. no one runs the 100 in 9.8 jogging at the end like that, i dont care how long your stride is

OceanSpray
08-22-2013, 04:05 PM
19 guys.. he was 19...

http://casnocha.com/images/old/6a00d8341c85c753ef011570239689970c-pi.jpg

JoeBlessU
08-22-2013, 04:06 PM
I don't follow hockey, but I have no idea how Gretzky was able to have those kinds of stats. Its almost impossible to rival Gretzky in hockey.

Lol..ONCE AGAIN. Points dont tell the whole story. Wilt scored 100 points in a game, which is also ridiculous, does that make him the GOAT?..Kareem outscored MJ in his career. Is he better?

Sandman
08-22-2013, 04:06 PM
In soccer it's Pele and Maradona

Hockey is pretty much unanimous but many believe if Messier were not injured he would have broken all of Gretzky's records
they were the same age on the same team (same line even?) when Gretzky started his madness, are you thinking of somebody else?

OceanSpray
08-22-2013, 04:08 PM
Lol..ONCE AGAIN. Points dont tell the whole story. Wilt scored 100 points in a game, which is also ridiculous, does that make him the GOAT?..Kareem outscored MJ in his career. Is he better?

Actually, there are people who will put Wilt over Jordan. Also Kareem over Jordan. In NBA, it's Jordan who's the GOAT. But undisputed without a hesitation in any sport, who is the greatest? Has to be Phelps.

Sandman
08-22-2013, 04:10 PM
Lol..ONCE AGAIN. Points dont tell the whole story. Wilt scored 100 points in a game, which is also ridiculous, does that make him the GOAT?..Kareem outscored MJ in his career. Is he better?

1 -- the two guys you mentioned def have an argument for GOAT

2 -- You are using a 1 game example and a career tenure example when Gretz has several of the top seasons ever w/ nobody close

3 -- Gretz' numbers are as obscene as Wilt's numbers year in/out, without the era excuse people make for Wilt

AIMelo=KillaDUO
08-22-2013, 04:10 PM
19 guys.. he was 19...

http://casnocha.com/images/old/6a00d8341c85c753ef011570239689970c-pi.jpg

Yes Tyson was 19 when he won the heavyweight title! So what? Doesn't make him the best ever!

Heatcheck
08-22-2013, 04:10 PM
Lol, I guess you didn't watch Tyson in his prime. His work ethic when he was motivated was insane. Yes, the competition wasn't as great but Tyson destroyed each and every one of them. Against Holyfield, he took a damn 4 years break and got fat/lost his motivation. He needed more money and that's why he went back to fight. He wasn't close to Mike Tyson in his prime..

first, that holyfield fight was his fifth fight since his comeback, and he'd been training for 3 years already. lets not use the he just wasnt playing hard excuse.
And what does his work ethic have to do with his boxing ability? he was a an athlete (as in an extremely athletic boxer) who used his intimidation (physical presence, punching power) to his advantage, without that (against a fighter whos not scared to get hit hard), his deficiencies as a boxer were exposed. and the competition was far from "not great" it was horrible.

JoeBlessU
08-22-2013, 04:11 PM
Gretzky is hands down the greatest scorer in NHL history. Not greatest all around player. He won 4 cups when he had the super team with messier and jari kuri. He never won another cup again.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
08-22-2013, 04:12 PM
Tyson wasn't close to the same fighter after Cus died. He was a machine and the youngest heavyweight of all time because he trained harder than any fighter. he ran 5 miles every morning no matter what. After Cus died all his hard worked ceased and so did any shot at being the greatest. A Prime Mike could beat any boxer ever.

Cuz D'Mato died in 1985... Tyson went on to win the belt AFTER that. So I'm not buying this, "not the same" argument. Tyson ran 5 miles a day? Every morning?? Wow. GOAT!!!

conway429
08-22-2013, 04:12 PM
Clearly you didnt read it.. It's people who actually know what the hell they are talking about. They all say Orr, as do I.

why are they people who know what they're talking about? because they agree with you?
it's a sports forum dude...

and it's ridiculous to argue against Gretzky....
Cups, points, impact on the game...

Orr was awesome for a few years, Gretzky was more awesome for decades.

Orr is a trendy pick, for people who wanna go against what the majority say.

1. Gretzky
2a. Lemieux
2b. Orr
3. Howe

OceanSpray
08-22-2013, 04:13 PM
first, that holyfield fight was his fifth fight since his comeback, and he'd been training for 3 years already. lets not use the he just wasnt playing hard excuse.
And what does his work ethic have to do with his boxing ability? he was a an athlete (as in an extremely athletic boxer) who used his intimidation (physical presence, punching power) to his advantage, without that (against a fighter whos not scared to get hit hard), his deficiencies as a boxer were exposed. and the competition was far from "not great" it was horrible.

Horrible? Horrible is the boxing today. If it was horrible, there wouldn't be a Holyfield, right? Also, yes Tyson fought 5 fights but that comeback was all done to get him ready for a big fight against Holyfield because Tyson financially was in trouble. He needed money and that's why he came back. It wasn't to be the best boxer, it was so he could make some more money. He wasn't even close to the prime Tyson and it's not an excuse.. It's a fact.

Heatcheck
08-22-2013, 04:13 PM
19 guys.. he was 19...

http://casnocha.com/images/old/6a00d8341c85c753ef011570239689970c-pi.jpg

he was 20, and ali was 22 big deal

OceanSpray
08-22-2013, 04:15 PM
Yes Tyson was 19 when he won the heavyweight title! So what? Doesn't make him the best ever!

I didn't say he's the best ever.. Learn to read. I said prime Tyson would've been the best. Too bad he couldn't keep it up to compare him against the likes of Louis or Robinson. But for a 19 year old, this kid seriously beat grown men with ease.

Sly Guy
08-22-2013, 04:15 PM
In soccer it's Pele and Maradona

Hockey is pretty much unanimous but many believe if Messier were not injured he would have broken all of Gretzky's records

nah, mess never would have done it. Think of the single season scoring record. Only guy who ever had a shot at that was lemieux. Gretzky's pretty unanimous.

Hawkeye15
08-22-2013, 04:17 PM
Bobby orr, IMO was a better player than wayne gretzky, gretzky was a great scorer, thats about it.

http://********.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=339230

There had this argument on a hockey thread.. Most people, who knew what they were talking about, chose bobby orr

Gordie Howe was awesome as well. The gordie howe hatrick..Score a goal, assist on a goal, and get into a fight lol. He also did it all.

The point of the thread, is asking, in the public mass perception, are there sports where one player stands out as the GOAT?

Yes, in the NBA, and NHL. If you polled all the hockey fans around the world, don't you think Gretzky would win in an absolute runaway?

OceanSpray
08-22-2013, 04:17 PM
he was 20, and ali was 22 big deal

? That pic is when he was 19. but yeah, Ali isn't the best boxer.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
08-22-2013, 04:18 PM
I didn't say he's the best ever.. Learn to read. I said prime Tyson would've been the best. Too bad he couldn't keep it up to compare him against the likes of Louis or Robinson. But for a 19 year old, this kid seriously beat grown men with ease.

Well then shutup... The dude who started the thread said Tyson was the greatest. That's where I disagreed. So if you agree with me, then move on. damn.

Hawkeye15
08-22-2013, 04:18 PM
No because they dont go flying across the court and start flailing theirs arms at the refs while the play is going the other way.

they would if they knew they would get calls. Don't get pissed at athletes playing within the rules, get pissed at the rules..

JoeBlessU
08-22-2013, 04:19 PM
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://theawesomeboston.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/bobby-orr-flying-goal.jpg&imgrefurl=http://theawesomeboston.com/bobby-orrs-flying-stanley-cup-winning-goal-was-42-years-ago-today/&h=478&w=602&sz=70&tbnid=mh2WESJRJToKZM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=113&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dbobby%2Borr%2Bcups%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo %3Du&zoom=1&q=bobby+orr+cups&usg=__eGrUCQYInw583dvUOX3ZqTLDfLg=&docid=_f9bhItMhwurPM&sa=X&ei=w3EWUuvWEci82gXIj4GoAw&ved=0CD8Q9QEwBA&dur=1813

Heatcheck
08-22-2013, 04:19 PM
Horrible? Horrible is the boxing today. If it was horrible, there wouldn't be a Holyfield, right? Also, yes Tyson fought 5 fights but that comeback was all done to get him ready for a big fight against Holyfield because Tyson financially was in trouble. He needed money and that's why he came back. It wasn't to be the best boxer, it was so he could make some more money. He wasn't even close to the prime Tyson and it's not an excuse.. It's a fact.

its an excuse and a terrible one. First, "i just wasnt motivated" means jack. part of what made jordan who he was was his work ethic. no one points to jordan and says, "boy if he wouldve played his whole career like he did from 87-90, he'd be the greatest" or "Jordan was ****** at the end because he went and played baseball and lost it". he was the GREATEST, and came back just as strong, not "well i was fat and out of shape here, and i wasnt really trying in that fight, i just needed the money."
thats ********, Holyfield was older and dominated him. period. tyson may have had the physical tools, but not the technical or mental.

Heatcheck
08-22-2013, 04:22 PM
? That pic is when he was 19. but yeah, Ali isn't the best boxer.

so its just a random pic of him looking swole? it all makes sense. mike tyson had the biggest muscles, so you know he was the greatest.

OceanSpray
08-22-2013, 04:22 PM
its an excuse and a terrible one. First, "i just wasnt motivated" means jack. part of what made jordan who he was was his work ethic. no one points to jordan and says, "boy if he wouldve played his whole career like he did from 87-90, he'd be the greatest" or "Jordan was ****** at the end because he went and played baseball and lost it". he was the GREATEST, and came back just as strong, not "well i was fat and out of shape here, and i wasnt really trying in that fight, i just needed the money."
thats ********, Holyfield was older and dominated him. period.

Dude, that's why I said "He would've". I'm holding that against him but I'm saying prime Tyson would've been the greatest boxer had he kept it up. Louis and Robinson are 1a and 1b for me, not Tyson.. Learn to read next time. And Holyfield was still fighting actively.. Not to mention Holyfield was still boxing at age 46. dude was talented.

OceanSpray
08-22-2013, 04:24 PM
so its just a random pic of him looking swole? it all makes sense. mike tyson had the biggest muscles, so you know he was the greatest.

Nah, just a reminder of how dedicated he was in his prime. I think you misunderstood my statement. I didn't say Tyson was the best, I said he could've been the best if he had kept up his prime days. I don't care about competition because some people say Bill/Wilt are the greatest but we rarely mention the competition back then. So by that standard, you can't blame Tyson for having lesser opponents.

Heatcheck
08-22-2013, 04:25 PM
Dude, that's why I said "He would've". I'm holding that against him but I'm saying prime Tyson would've been the greatest boxer had he kept it up. Louis and Robinson are 1a and 1b for me, not Tyson.. Learn to read next time. And Holyfield was still fighting actively.. Not to mention Holyfield was still boxing at age 46. dude was talented.

I can read perfectly, you said "Prime Tyson would destroy any boxer hands down", and i said, nothing about im beating up on some garbage makes me think he could beat any boxer let alone "destroy" any boxer

Heatcheck
08-22-2013, 04:27 PM
Nah, just a reminder of how dedicated he was in his prime. I think you misunderstood my statement. I didn't say Tyson was the best, I said he could've been the best if he had kept up his prime days. I don't care about competition because some people say Bill/Wilt are the greatest but we rarely mention the competition back then. So by that standard, you can't blame Tyson for having lesser opponents.

yeah but im not going by that standard, so what your saying is pointless

And stop "modifying" your original statement, you said Prime tyson would destroy any other boxer. not he wouldve been or couldve developed into or anything like that.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
08-22-2013, 04:29 PM
I coulda been the greatest boxer ever, had I been dedicated, too.

OceanSpray
08-22-2013, 04:29 PM
I can read perfectly, you said "Prime Tyson would destroy any boxer hands down", and i said, nothing about im beating up on some garbage makes me think he could beat any boxer let alone "destroy" any boxer

I said hands down would destroy any boxer in his prime, yeah. So what? his prime was short and that's why he can't be labeled as the greatest boxer. Had he had a longer career, he wouldn't been the best. Understand the difference and come back again next time. And I don't care what standards you're using. How can you compare different decades of sports? There are a lot of variables to comprehend.

OceanSpray
08-22-2013, 04:30 PM
I coulda been the greatest boxer ever, had I been dedicated, too.

Whatever, guess you're too basic of a human being.

effen5
08-22-2013, 04:31 PM
Tiger?

AIMelo=KillaDUO
08-22-2013, 04:38 PM
Whatever, guess you're too basic of a human being.

Lol. Since your the heavyweight champ huh? I guess we both some basic MFers. Only difference is you don't know boxing.

Heatcheck
08-22-2013, 04:39 PM
I said hands down would destroy any boxer in his prime, yeah. So what? his prime was short and that's why he can't be labeled as the greatest boxer. Had he had a longer career, he wouldn't been the best. Understand the difference and come back again next time. And I don't care what standards you're using. How can you compare different decades of sports? There are a lot of variables to comprehend.

Read Carefully, Nothing about who Tyson faced or the technical level of his boxing abilities, could give anyone who knows anything about boxing, the impression that he would destroy any other boxer in his prime. thats my point, thats why i brought up his fight against Holyfield and Green. and to be clear, when YOU said he would destroy any boxer in his prime, YOU compared boxers from different decades.

ChicagoJ
08-22-2013, 04:39 PM
When the year 2000 approached there was a lot of talk about the greatest athletes of the century and the #1 athletes in their sport. Jordan, Gretzky, and Ali's name came up the most from what I remember.

As for boxing, I'm not an expert but I think a lot of die hards would not put Tyson at the top of the list. I've heard that when he faced real tough competition later in his career he started loosing, namely vs Holyfield and Lennox Lewis.

JeremiahWing
08-22-2013, 04:40 PM
Jordan
Gretzky
Ruth
Jerry Rice

Heatcheck
08-22-2013, 04:43 PM
Jordan
Gretzky
Ruth
Jerry Rice

Fat boy didnt even run the bases sometimes

mike_noodles
08-22-2013, 04:51 PM
In soccer it's Pele and Maradona

Hockey is pretty much unanimous but many believe if Messier were not injured he would have broken all of Gretzky's records


Hockey is the only other sport I know where 99% of people will give one name.


Hockey as well.


Wayne easily, will never be over taken or compared to with other star players.

Whereas MJ always is brought up in comparison to guys like Kobe, Lebron etc...

Wayne is more of a sure thing at number 1 in his sport than MJ is IMO


I have to agree with the rest. Wayne Gretzky just crushed hockey at a level that dwarfs what MJ did. He ended his career with 2857 points. Messier (Who is 2nd) is like 1000 points behind him. Jari Kurri has LESS THAN HALF as many points (1398) and is in the top 20 of all-time.

Statistically hell you could argue Wilt is more like Gretzky and Babe Ruth than MJ ever was.

Wow, haha. Can tell not alotta Canadians in here. Hockey is not unanimous as many, many hockey experts do not consider Wayne Gretzky #1. Most consider it to be Bobby Orr. And quite a few would say Lemieux as well. Maybe a little bit of love for Gordie Howe, but most definitely not unanimous.

As for baseball, to the OP... How the heck can you put Aaron and Dimaggio and not mention Mays and Williams?

But to answer the question, at this point I would think it's fair to say that basketball is the one with the athlete that clearly stands out.

IKnowHoops
08-22-2013, 04:52 PM
No he wasn't, prime Mike had a glass jaw...he was lightning quick, and fast as a middleweight but once he got hit the first time he was done

"When tyson came to us he was 12 years old and weighed 190lbs and there was no fat on him"-Teddy Atlas

Um dude, Mike never fought at middleweight.

Hustla23
08-22-2013, 04:55 PM
Soccer. Zinedine Zidane is the best player of all time.

alexander_37
08-22-2013, 04:56 PM
"When tyson came to us he was 12 years old and weighed 190lbs and there was no fat on him"-Teddy Atlas

Um dude, Mike never fought at middleweight.

Fail... He said AS FAST AS A MIDDLEWEIGHT, reading comprehension.

IKnowHoops
08-22-2013, 05:00 PM
1 -- the two guys you mentioned def have an argument for GOAT

2 -- You are using a 1 game example and a career tenure example when Gretz has several of the top seasons ever w/ nobody close

3 -- Gretz' numbers are as obscene as Wilt's numbers year in/out, without the era excuse people make for Wilt


All of this, but mainly this

russianshoulder
08-22-2013, 05:02 PM
didn't read through every page but... pretty sure real hockey fans wouldn't say gretzky is the best... bobby orr most likely

IKnowHoops
08-22-2013, 05:02 PM
first, that holyfield fight was his fifth fight since his comeback, and he'd been training for 3 years already. lets not use the he just wasnt playing hard excuse.
And what does his work ethic have to do with his boxing ability? he was a an athlete (as in an extremely athletic boxer) who used his intimidation (physical presence, punching power) to his advantage, without that (against a fighter whos not scared to get hit hard), his deficiencies as a boxer were exposed. and the competition was far from "not great" it was horrible.

Work ethic is probably the most important thing in boxing. ex. Zab judah should of been much better, but he didnt have stamina. Now look at Floyd noone works harder. Look at Tim Bradley and Holyfield. They don't beat you with skill. They beat you with Heart and conditioning. Both are skilled dont get me wrong, but they can beat guys more skilled by having a stronger motor.

mike_noodles
08-22-2013, 05:05 PM
All of this, but mainly this

Except that hockey is a physical game, and he may have been the least physical player ever. That has to count for something too.

Heatcheck
08-22-2013, 05:10 PM
Work ethic is probably the most important thing in boxing. ex. Zab judah should of been much better, but he didnt have stamina. Now look at Floyd noone works harder. Look at Tim Bradley and Holyfield. They don't beat you with skill. They beat you with Heart and conditioning. Both are skilled dont get me wrong, but they can beat guys more skilled by having a stronger motor.

as part of the argument, he stated it as a reason why he wasnt more successful, my retort was that that is irrelevent because his technical abilities werent up to scruff to begin with. i think that statement of beating someone with heart and conditioning, may be true but extremely oversimplifies. those fighters you named are exeptional BOXERS with solid technique, and do more than just bum rush you.

b@llhog24
08-22-2013, 05:11 PM
then smack them dude. Kobe is not in his realm, and Bron is mid career, and not even close right now.

The only rational answers outside Jordan (by rational, I mean answers that aren't complete b.s.), are KAJ or Wilt. And frankly, neither really have a strong case when you start pumping out all the facts.

Yea but that's because you know better. The masses don't; so you do see MJ getting compared to lesser players like Kobe, Oscar, Magic, etc.


where the hell is JB with his 74 page printout of MJ when you need him?

Dear gahd no. Too much scrolling.


Wow, haha. Can tell not alotta Canadians in here. Hockey is not unanimous as many, many hockey experts do not consider Wayne Gretzky #1. Most consider it to be Bobby Orr. And quite a few would say Lemieux as well. Maybe a little bit of love for Gordie Howe, but most definitely not unanimous.

As for baseball, to the OP... How the heck can you put Aaron and Dimaggio and not mention Mays and Williams?

But to answer the question, at this point I would think it's fair to say that basketball is the one with the athlete that clearly stands out.

I don't watch hockey. So I'd assume that my opinion on this would reflect those of the uneducated masses, no?

IKnowHoops
08-22-2013, 05:14 PM
Fail... He said AS FAST AS A MIDDLEWEIGHT, reading comprehension.

Fail!!!!!!! He did not say "as fast as a middleweight" he said "fast as a middleweight". Learn to read bro. He then went on to say "he had a glass jaw and that once he got hit he was done." This is also just as bad as Tyson being "fast as a middleweight.

Heatcheck
08-22-2013, 05:15 PM
Soccer. Zinedine Zidane is the best player of all time.


Its a little harder to pick someone out in a sport like soccer because it contains many different phases of the game (Goalkeeping, defending, holding possesion, creating chances, finishing chances, ect) and they all need each other to be effective. but i tend to agree with Zidane, maybe Ronaldo. Maradonna was on coke, so he is elimintated. Messi plays in the Mac-10 of soccer leagues and plays EVERY single game and Pele played in Brazil where they play even less defense than in spain.

IKnowHoops
08-22-2013, 05:15 PM
Except that hockey is a physical game, and he may have been the least physical player ever. That has to count for something too.

Tell that to Joe Montana and every great QB

homestarunner93
08-22-2013, 05:43 PM
Clearly you didnt read it.. It's people who actually know what the hell they are talking about. They all say Orr, as do I.

Sounds like Bobby Orr is the "cool kid" thing to say, so you go along with it too because it makes you feel more enlightened and smarter than the average fan.

lamzoka
08-22-2013, 06:10 PM
In soccer it's Pele and Maradona

Hockey is pretty much unanimous but many believe if Messier were not injured he would have broken all of Gretzky's records


he was doping.... Pele and maybe Zidane

Leach11
08-22-2013, 06:26 PM
Trendy and correct. http://********.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=339230

These guys know what they are talking about..

Uh no, they don't know what they are talking about. There are as many clueless posters on that site as there is on this one. There is literally no argument to made against Gretzky being the GOAT. A valid argument can be made that Lemieux could have been better than Gretzky if not for injuries/cancer or that Orr had greater peak years than Gretzky (even these would be extremely difficult), but, over an entire career, Gretzky's resume completely decimates the rest. It isn't even close. I do find it hilarious that you cite +/- (over one season) as the reason for why Orr is better than Gretzky. Not only is that stat pretty useless for comparing players on different teams, but it also doesn't take into consideration goals scored on the power play (which constitutes a highly significant portion of total goals scored). It's generally considered a last resort stat by people who actually know what they are talking about.

riconek
08-22-2013, 06:33 PM
Soccer. Zinedine Zidane is the best player of all time.

Haha very funny.


Pele, Maradona are the best. Messi might be in few years

mike_noodles
08-22-2013, 06:39 PM
Yea but that's because you know better. The masses don't; so you do see MJ getting compared to lesser players like Kobe, Oscar, Magic, etc.



Dear gahd no. Too much scrolling.



I don't watch hockey. So I'd assume that my opinion on this would reflect those of the uneducated masses, no?

It's because he has so many more points than everyone else I think.


Tell that to Joe Montana and every great QB

Apples and oranges. A QB only has to worry about one side of the ball.

Leach11
08-22-2013, 06:39 PM
No he doesn't. Check the stats. Bonds most HR before he juiced was 47-48. Griffey had 58. And I didn't give out the award. Major league baseball gave out the award. Griffey was also a better fielder. Juiced Bonds is obviously the greatest baseball player who ever lived but before he got on juice, Griffey's power stats were better. HR and RBI's that is. Then in 98 Bonds went super sayin on the juice and the rest is history.

Bolded is simply not true. Griffey played a more valuable position, but Bonds was one of the greatest ever to play his position.

He absolutely destroys him. Ken Griffey Jr. is my favourite player of all time, but 1990's Bonds was way better than Griffey. Not only is his OPS and OPS+ (stats that tell you a hell of a lot more than HR's or BA) better than Griffey's in virtual every season during the 90's, but his base-running was far superior and he was one of the greatest left fielders of all-time.

I would love a guy like Jeffy (from the MLB forum) to come in here and explain to you how much better 1990's Bonds was than 1990's Griffey. He knows wayyy more than I do when it comes to baseball and I guarantee he would absolutely annihilate any argument one might make for Griffey being better than Bonds during the 90's era.

mike_noodles
08-22-2013, 06:40 PM
Sounds like Bobby Orr is the "cool kid" thing to say, so you go along with it too because it makes you feel more enlightened and smarter than the average fan.

I don't think it's the "cool" answer at all, I think it's correct. And I ****ing hate Don Cherry so it pains me to agree with him.

J4KOP99
08-22-2013, 06:43 PM
Gretzky was more dominant at Hockey than MJ at basketball. Hockey is just more of a team game and one singular performer can't have as big of an impact. Gretzky's records are absolutely insane.

As for the hockey debate, a few people here and there will argue that Lemieux would have done even more damage [than gretz] had he not suffered so many injuries. However, that argument sort of falls on its face.

But the OP brings up an interesting point. It's hard to find a unanimous decision on anything sports related.

-Football is way too hard to compare players. You'd have to say the QB is the most important position but even then, it is very hard to do when you have two separate "teams" (offense and defense)

-Baseball is tough too. I'd say it's Babe Ruth and I think that is what the majority of people would say but then again, he played in a completely different era.

-I think Pele would be close to unanimous but Diego and now Messi give a solid argument. Messi needs a World Cup though, IMO, and unless things drastically change, I don't think he will get one. Yes, he is still very young but I want to see him win something as the unquestioned #1. His barcelona teams are so ****ing loaded it's not really fair.

-Tennis would be Sampras but there can be a lot of arguments here. Federer is the obvious one.

Leach11
08-22-2013, 07:21 PM
I always hear discussions of "who is/was the greatest in their sport". All are debatable. MJ is prolly the only true unanimous No 1 at his sport, or at least 99% No 1. Who else besides MJ is the true No. 1 in their sport? Rest of the other sports all have debatable true No. 1 greatest player.

Basketball: 1. MJ
Baseball: 1. Babe Ruth, Hank Aaron, Griffey Jr, Dimaggio
Football: 1. Rice, Montana
Soccer: 1. Pele, Messi
Golf: 1. Nicklaus, Tiger
Hockey: 1. Gretzkey, (don't know much about hockey to know if he is unanimous.)
Boxing: 1. Ali, Tyson (take out the popularity of Ali)
Skateboard: 1. THawk, (dont know much about this either)

I feel all sports have either No 1 and 1A greatest players besides Basketball. What is your opinion?

I feel some of these are way off, so I'm going to make a list that I feel is a greater representation of the GOAT's in each of the listed sports.

Basketball: 1. MJ (virtually no argument for anyone else)

Baseball (exclusively position players): 1. Babe Ruth (difficult to make an argument for anyone else), 2. Willie Mayes, 3. Ted Williams, 4. Ty Cobb, 5. Barry Bonds (if we don't discriminate against him for his roid use, he's probably Ruth's greatest opponent for the GOAT title)

Football: Jerry Rice, Joe Montana, Jim Brown, Lawrence Taylor, Johnny Unitas (Extremely difficult sport to determine the greatest ever, so I'm going to avoid this one and just name some of the most recognized GOAT's to ever play the game)

Soccer: Pele, Lionel Messi, Diego Maradona, Ronaldo (9) (Another difficult one to determine. A lot of all-time greats and current coaches and players consider Messi to be the best ever and his numbers definitely support this; however, Pele and Maradona are legendary and the original Ronaldo was absolutely incredible so I just decided to name the one's I consider above the rest).

Golf: Tiger Woods, Jack Nicklaus (I hardly watch golf, but I believe these two are generally considered the greatest ever).

Hockey: 1. Wayne Gretzky, (Easily the GOAT, his production numbers completely dominate the rest of the competition) 2. Bobby Orr, 3. Mario Lemieux, 4. Gordie Howe

Tennis: 1. Roger Federer, 2. Pete Sampras 3. Rafael Nadal

Boxing: Sugar Ray Robinson, Ali, Joe Louis (To be honest, I don't know much about boxing, but I do know that these three fighters are often considered to be in the top 5 ever).

Skateboarding: 1. Tony Hawk (pretty sure he's universally recognized as the greatest ever, even if that's based on influence alone), Bob Burnquist, Danny Way (My buddy who is absolutely incredible at skateboarding says that Danny Way is the best skateboarder that has ever lived, but I do not know if this is a sentiment shared by the skateboarding community).

asandhu23
08-22-2013, 07:27 PM
I am not a cricket fan but Sachin Tendulkar is considered the GOAT of cricket. Then there is a huge drop off.

asandhu23
08-22-2013, 07:28 PM
In golfing world, most fans know Tiger Woods. Not many know of anyone else.

BranWingss
08-22-2013, 07:55 PM
In soccer it's Pele and Maradona

Hockey is pretty much unanimous but many believe if Messier were not injured he would have broken all of Gretzky's records

Mark Messier was actually a pretty healthy player. He played on elite teams, the absolute best, during the scoring era. Mario Lemueix is better. Steve Yzerman had a better peak than Mark Messier. Bobby Orr is up there. Martin Brodeur is up there. Nick Lidstrom is up there. Gordie Howe is obviously up there. I don't think Mark Messier is in my top five actually.


Gretzky was a better passer than he was a scorer, and he's the greatest scorer ever.

Mike Bossy may have actually been the better pure goal scorer. Truly a gifted player.

Trueblue2
08-22-2013, 08:49 PM
Manny is for sure the best boxer ever, dominated multiple wieght classes (without losing quickness when gaining 20lbs) and a ridiculous unbeaten streak. I really dont see how anyone else compares prime v prime.

TheGreaterFool
08-22-2013, 09:07 PM
Depending on who you ask, and what era they grew up watching, you'll get mix answers for basketball. I've come across guys who were adamant that Oscar was a better player than Michael.

Bishnoff
08-22-2013, 09:11 PM
Some others:

Cricket: Don Bradman
Billiards: Walter Lindrum

Bishnoff
08-22-2013, 09:12 PM
I am not a cricket fan but Sachin Tendulkar is considered the GOAT of cricket. Then there is a huge drop off.

Actually it's Sir Don Bradman. Like your Tiger Woods reference, you're not looking at any historical players.


Sir Donald George Bradman, AC (27 August 1908 – 25 February 2001), often referred to as "The Don", was an Australian cricketer, widely acknowledged as the greatest Test batsman of all time.[1] Bradman's career Test batting average of 99.94 is often cited as statistically the greatest achievement by any sportsman in any major sport. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Bradman


Tendulkar's Test batting average was 53.86 btw.

PurpleLynch
08-22-2013, 09:20 PM
I can just speak about soccer and basketball...In soccer is common to use(in Italy at least,but I think all over Europe too) mostly Maradona to talk about the greatest of all time;Pelè is right there. The fact is that Pelè holds probably the title as 1st scorer in the world,but Maradona is still considered by a thin majority the best. In my opinion Pelè didn't played in Europe(best zone for professional soccer),so it's a void in his career,even if he was beastly in the Worlds Cups.Maradona won a Serie A championship with Napoli,so I can sure say he was beastly in a tough era of football in Italy too.
Players who should be in the list for the best of the world:-Platini,Cruyff,Van Basten.
Honorable mentions:Beckenbauer,Rumenigge,Best,Baggio,Rivera, Ronaldo,Sivori,Di Stefano,Keegan,Eusebio, and the list is very long,too much long,just first names in my mind.
Goalkeepers:Yashin,Buffon,Zoff,Banks etc(in their role obviously).

Bishnoff
08-22-2013, 09:24 PM
Golf has no clear #1. Tiger, Jack Nicklaus, Ben Hogan, Bobby Jones, Walter Hagen, Arnold Palmer, Greg Norman, and Gary Player could all stake their claim at being the best (different generations, some won more majors, some won more tournaments etc.).

Bishnoff
08-22-2013, 09:26 PM
I can just speak about soccer and basketball...In soccer is common to use(in Italy at least,but I think all over Europe too) mostly Maradona to talk about the greatest of all time;Pelè is right there. The fact is that Pelè holds probably the title as 1st scorer in the world,but Maradona is still considered by a thin majority the best. In my opinion Pelè didn't played in Europe(best zone for professional soccer),so it's a void in his career,even if he was beastly in the Worlds Cups.Maradona won a Serie A championship with Napoli,so I can sure say he was beastly in a tough era of football in Italy too.
Players who should be in the list for the best of the world:-Platini,Cruyff,Van Basten.
Honorable mentions:Beckenbauer,Rumenigge,Best,Baggio,Rivera, Ronaldo,Sivori,Di Stefano,Keegan,Eusebio, and the list is very long,too much long,just first names in my mind.
Goalkeepers:Yashin,Buffon,Zoff,Banks etc(in their role obviously).

I think that when he retires, Messi will be the GOAT (and that's coming from a huge Real Madrid fan).

dnl123
08-22-2013, 09:29 PM
Didn't read through this whole thread so don't hate if I'm repeating but Shaun White has DOMINATED Superpipe in snowboarding for quite a while.

albertajaysfan
08-22-2013, 09:34 PM
Bobby orr, IMO was a better player than wayne gretzky, gretzky was a great scorer, thats about it.

http://********.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=339230

There had this argument on a hockey thread.. Most people, who knew what they were talking about, chose bobby orr

Gordie Howe was awesome as well. The gordie howe hatrick..Score a goal, assist on a goal, and get into a fight lol. He also did it all.


Orr was an unbelievable talent, injuries kept him from being the greatest however.

You can't just look at talent, there is more criteria than that. Producing at an elite level for a long time factors into the equation quite heavily when discussing the GOAT.

Same reason why Dimaggio isn't a legit part of the conversation in baseball. Mario is the same thing in hockey. Tremendous talents unfortunately we didn't get to see a full career from any of them.

Pure talent that are right at the same level, if not above Gretzky. However his accomplishments are second to none.

I wish Orr was able to play longer.

goldenstater
08-22-2013, 09:37 PM
Willie mays was better than Aaron, Griffey, and DiMaggio.

Pablonovi
08-22-2013, 10:14 PM
Paula Radcliffe in the Women's Marathon.
Has held the World Record for over 10 years. (And no one, not named Paula Radcliffe, has come even close.)
Holds the All-Time Top 3 Times; and
4 of the top 7 times.
(Many running experts consider her 2:15:25 better comparatively than the current men's marathon record.)

btw Only one other female runner has even 2 times in the top 10, with her best time being only 5th, and her second best being only tied for 10th-11th). The Gap is humongous!
CASE CLOSED !

Wikipedia: Paula Jane Radcliffe, MBE (born 17 December 1973) is an English long-distance runner. She is the current women's world record holder in the marathon with her time of 2:15:25 hours. She is a three-time winner of the London Marathon (2002, 2003, 2005), three-time New York Marathon champion (2004, 2007, 2008), and won the 2002 Chicago Marathon.

Radcliffe is a former world champion in the marathon, half marathon and cross country. She has also been European champion over 10,000 metres and in cross country. On the track, Radcliffe won the 10,000 metres silver medal at the 1999 World Championships and was the 2002 Commonwealth champion at 5000 metres. She has represented Great Britain at the Olympics four times consecutively (1996 to 2008), but has not won a medal on the Olympic stage.

Radcliffe is an asthma sufferer who has campaigned against the use of drugs in sport. She is married to her coach, Gary Lough, and has two children.

Her running has earned her a number of accolades including the BBC Sports Personality of the Year, Laureus World Comeback of the Year, IAAF World Athlete of the Year, AIMS World Athlete of the Year (three times) and a Member of the Order of the British Empire (MBE). She has also been nominated for World Sportswoman of the year on several occasions. In 2010, she was inducted into the England Athletics Hall of Fame.

Pablonovi
08-22-2013, 10:23 PM
Why I have PERSONAL total confidence that Paula Radcliffe is, at least, one of the top most-dominant athletes in any sports; beside what her record (as compared to all other women's marathon runners in history) shows:

I have officially run dozens of marathons myself; although I was not close to winning any of them.
I have run the marathon distance (or more) literally 1,000s of times.
I have averaged in 3 separate years over a marathon a day in training. (I ran 10,000 miles in 1981, 1985, and 1991, that's 28.5 miles a day). and just missed in 2012, while in my 60s; though that year, last year, I did run a 7 hour solo run across a series of high altitude mountain peaks.

So I do know a lot about marathon-ing both from personal experience AND because I've been a hard-core fan since 1978, when I first started running, and when I ran my first marathon (actually Jan, 1979). That's 35 years of being a hard-core fan of that sport.

ztilzer31
08-22-2013, 10:49 PM
I always hear discussions of "who is/was the greatest in their sport". All are debatable. MJ is prolly the only true unanimous No 1 at his sport, or at least 99% No 1. Who else besides MJ is the true No. 1 in their sport? Rest of the other sports all have debatable true No. 1 greatest player.

Basketball: 1. MJ
Baseball: 1. Babe Ruth, Hank Aaron, Griffey Jr, Dimaggio
Football: 1. Rice, Montana
Soccer: 1. Pele, Messi
Golf: 1. Nicklaus, Tiger
Hockey: 1. Gretzkey, (don't know much about hockey to know if he is unanimous.)
Boxing: 1. Ali, Tyson (take out the popularity of Ali)
Skateboard: 1. THawk, (dont know much about this either)

I feel all sports have either No 1 and 1A greatest players besides Basketball. What is your opinion?

Skateboarding - Tony Hawk was just the cover boy. He's an excellent vert skater, but he doesn't skate street at all. Plus Lasek, Burnquist, and plenty of other guys are considered just as good at vert if not better. Skating would have to be split into street/vert. No definite number 1 in either category however. If anyone it would be Rodney Mullen. Big innovator.

Boxing - Ali is kind of the "I don't know anything about boxing so I'm picking Ali pick". Not many actual boxers believe Ali was the best ever. He just promoted his fights better than anyone.

Hockey - Gretzky is an amazing player, and many think he's the greatest, but Mario Lemieux has a lot of votes as well. Mario was bigger, and a better defender. More of the all around player than Gretzky. A lot of people believe that Mario would of been GOAT if he didn't have to battle with so many health and injury concerns.

Golf - Nicklaus might be in the talk for GOAT, but the greatest prime of any golfer was Tiger Woods and it's not even close. What he did in his prime will never happen again in golf.

Soccer - No nothing about Soccer.

Football - Football is kind of done position by position, but GOAT would definitely be all QB's, and Montana is probably the favorite, but definitely doesn't run away with it.

Baseball - It's Ruth. Ruth changed the sport big time. Other guys really don't even compare. I do like that you have Griffey up there though :). Other guys would be Mays, and Mantle. Also Tris Speaker, Ty Cobb, Cy Young, and Sandy Koufax. Ruth though started it all.

Basketball - Very few besides Karl Malone don't think Michael is the greatest. Lebron could overtake him in the future, but we have a few more years before we start having that discussion.

BirdIsTheWord
08-22-2013, 10:59 PM
Don Bradman.

carlthack
08-22-2013, 11:07 PM
I always hear discussions of "who is/was the greatest in their sport". All are debatable. MJ is prolly the only true unanimous No 1 at his sport, or at least 99% No 1. Who else besides MJ is the true No. 1 in their sport? Rest of the other sports all have debatable true No. 1 greatest player.

Basketball: 1. MJ
Baseball: 1. Babe Ruth, Hank Aaron, Griffey Jr, Dimaggio
Football: 1. Rice, Montana
Soccer: 1. Pele, Messi
Golf: 1. Nicklaus, Tiger
Hockey: 1. Gretzkey, (don't know much about hockey to know if he is unanimous.)
Boxing: 1. Ali, Tyson (take out the popularity of Ali)
Skateboard: 1. THawk, (dont know much about this either)

I feel all sports have either No 1 and 1A greatest players besides Basketball. What is your opinion?

Its very debatable that MJ is number one. But Wayne Gretzky is crotch, chest, head and shoulders above all the rest in hockey.

asandhu23
08-22-2013, 11:09 PM
Don Bradman.

This dude's accomplishments are almost like someone made them up. Wilt Chamberlain esque numbers.

asandhu23
08-22-2013, 11:11 PM
Actually it's Sir Don Bradman. Like your Tiger Woods reference, you're not looking at any historical players.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Bradman


Tendulkar's Test batting average was 53.86 btw.

Like I said... I don't follow cricket.

On the Tiger Woods thing, go out to school / work tomorrow and ask 5 random people to name a golfer not named Tiger.

Pablonovi
08-22-2013, 11:21 PM
I think Gretzy in Hockey is more clear cut than MJ in basketball; because legitimate arguments could be made for KAJ (5 more great years; that's a lot) or Wilt (greatest b-ball athlete ever; inidividually much more dominant in his era than MJ), or even Magic (greatest teammate ever) over MJ.

Kuya_Clive
08-22-2013, 11:23 PM
Eddy Merckx is the greatest pro-cyclist ever. Eric Heiden is also the greatest speed skater winning in both sprint and endurance events.

tredigs
08-22-2013, 11:36 PM
I always hear discussions of "who is/was the greatest in their sport". All are debatable. MJ is prolly the only true unanimous No 1 at his sport, or at least 99% No 1. Who else besides MJ is the true No. 1 in their sport? Rest of the other sports all have debatable true No. 1 greatest player.

Basketball: 1. MJ
Baseball: 1. Babe Ruth, Hank Aaron, Griffey Jr, Dimaggio
Football: 1. Rice, Montana
Soccer: 1. Pele, Messi
Golf: 1. Nicklaus, Tiger
Hockey: 1. Gretzkey, (don't know much about hockey to know if he is unanimous.)
Boxing: 1. Ali, Tyson (take out the popularity of Ali)
Skateboard: 1. THawk, (dont know much about this either)

I feel all sports have either No 1 and 1A greatest players besides Basketball. What is your opinion?
Hahah @ Griffey or Tyson as #1's. Loved watching both, but get serious. Gretzkey is as unanimous as it gets, MJ probably 2nd, and THawk was great, but this is more of a popularity choice. There are better.

tredigs
08-22-2013, 11:40 PM
Like I said... I don't follow cricket.

On the Tiger Woods thing, go out to school / work tomorrow and ask 5 random people to name a golfer not named Tiger.

Anybody with a passing knowledge of the game knows Nicklaus, Palmer, John Daly and Phil Mickleson. And I'd say most generic sports fans could name another 5. But yeah, his popularity and dominance was on another level. Still, he never passed Nicklaus, or at least hasn't yet.

Pablonovi
08-22-2013, 11:47 PM
Eddy Merckx is the greatest pro-cyclist ever. Eric Heiden is also the greatest speed skater winning in both sprint and endurance events.

Excellent point about Merckx - this is acknowledged by virtually all cyclist-experts.
Heiden I'm not as sure about; but I DO remember he was phenomenal.

Pablonovi
08-22-2013, 11:55 PM
Edwin Moses, 400 meter hurdles. 122 consecutive victories against the best of the entire world during almost exactly 10 years (9 yrs 9 months, 9 days), 4 world records; 24 of the fastest 98 races of all-time; 2 Olympic Gold Medals (separated by 8 years) and then a Bronze one (4 years later still).

Now, that's hard to beat, people!

I've followed the 400 meter hurdles a lot over the years; and saw quite a few of his races (though, NOT by any means the majority; they didn't/don't televise Track and Field, much less that particular race that often); but there's not even anybody clearly in second place compared to Edwin Moses. Think about that.

Wikipedia: Edwin Corley Moses (born August 31, 1955) is a former American track and field athlete, who won gold medals in the 400 m hurdles at the 1976 and 1984 Olympics. Between 1977 and 1987, Moses won 107 consecutive finals (122 consecutive races) and set the world record in his event four times. In addition to his running, Moses was also an innovative reformer in the areas of Olympic eligibility and drug testing. In 2000, he was elected the first Chairman of the Laureus World Sports Academy, an international service organization of world-class athletes.

122 consecutive wins[edit source]

Moses was born in Dayton, Ohio. Having accepted an academic scholarship to Morehouse College in Atlanta, Georgia, he majored in physics and industrial engineering, while competing for the school track team. Morehouse did not have its own track, so he used public high school facilities around the city to train. Initially, Moses competed mostly in the 120-yard hurdles and 440-yard dash. Before March 1976, he ran only one 400 m hurdles race, but once he began focusing on the event he made remarkable progress. His trademark technique was to take a consistent 13 steps between each of the hurdles, pulling away in the second half of the race as his rivals changed their stride pattern. That summer, he qualified for the US team for the 1976 Summer Olympics in Montreal. In his first international meet, Moses won the gold medal and set a world record of 47.63 seconds.

After breaking his own world record the following year, Moses lost to West Germany's Harald Schmid on 26 August 1977 in Berlin, his fourth defeat in the 400 m hurdles. Beginning the next week, when he beat Schmid by 15 meters in Düsseldorf, Moses did not lose another race for nine years, nine months and nine days.

By the time American Danny Harris beat Moses in Madrid on June 4, 1987, Moses had won 122 consecutive races, set the world record two more times, won three World Cup titles, a World Championship gold, and earned his second Olympic gold medal in Los Angeles, where he was selected to take the Olympic Oath. After losing to Harris, he won 10 more races in a row, collecting his second world gold in Rome in August of the same year, and then he finished third in the final 400 m race of his career at the 1988 Summer Olympics in Seoul. As of 1st August 2013, he holds 24 of the 98 fastest times in the 400 metres hurdles.[1]

joshhorvath
08-23-2013, 12:26 AM
Nicknamed "The Great One", he has been called "the greatest hockey player ever"[1] by many sportswriters, players, and the NHL itself. He is the leading point-scorer in NHL history, with more assists than any other player has points, and is the only NHL player to total over 200 points in one season – a feat he accomplished four times. In addition, he tallied over 100 points in 16 professional seasons, 14 of them consecutive. At the time of his retirement in 1999, he held 40 regular-season records, 15 playoff records, and six All-Star records. He won the Lady Byng Trophy for sportsmanship and performance five times,[2] and he often spoke out against fighting in hockey.[1][3]

And the Gretzky trade, has to be for pure impact, was in my mind, the biggest trade in the 4 major sports history. That trade alone affected canadians everywhere, including the goverment... "The Trade", as it came to be known, upset Canadians to the extent that New Democratic Party House Leader Nelson Riis demanded that the government block it. The trade made hockey releavent in the USA, paving the way for southern expansion.

Orr was a fantastic player, and certainly a #2 overall. Stats help, but people said its not all about that, so with that said.. even the impact that Gretzky had on the NHL, canada and the USA clearly makes him the GOAT. And when your own league says you were the greatest of all time...

Theres been no greater, impacting trade in all 4 major sports in history (you could argue Babe Ruth, but the impact didnt affect a whole country). And you could even make an argument that Gretzky very well could be, the greatest athlete of all time of any sport, with the top 2 going

1.Gretzky (NHL)
2.Jordan (NBA)

Jeffy25
08-23-2013, 12:33 AM
Bolded is simply not true. Griffey played a more valuable position, but Bonds was one of the greatest ever to play his position.

He absolutely destroys him. Ken Griffey Jr. is my favourite player of all time, but 1990's Bonds was way better than Griffey. Not only is his OPS and OPS+ (stats that tell you a hell of a lot more than HR's or BA) better than Griffey's in virtual every season during the 90's, but his base-running was far superior and he was one of the greatest left fielders of all-time.

I would love a guy like Jeffy (from the MLB forum) to come in here and explain to you how much better 1990's Bonds was than 1990's Griffey. He knows wayyy more than I do when it comes to baseball and I guarantee he would absolutely annihilate any argument one might make for Griffey being better than Bonds during the 90's era.

Griffey is no where close to Bonds


Greatest in baseball are Williams, Bonds, Mays, Aaron, and Ruth. Musial, Speaker, Hornsby, and Cobb are the next group of top players. Griffey is pretty far behind all of them. Didn't get on base, his fielding was over rated by the time he hit about 28 and then he was hurt pretty much all the way through his 30's. It's what will keep Pujols from getting onto their levels as well.

Bonds destroyed Griffey, badly. Even just in the 90's.

Numbers through the 90's

Batting Average/On Base Average/ Slugging Percentage - HR, RBI, SB/CS, fWAR

Bonds
.302/.434/.602 - 361, 1076, 343/94 , 81.3
Griffey
.302/.384/.581 - 382, 1091, 151/53 , 66.0

He was solidly better, and he was obviously better starting in 2000 as well.


I wouldn't put Griffey in the top 30 all time. And DiMaggio has already been passed by Pujols all time as well.

OceanSpray
08-23-2013, 01:24 AM
Griffey is no where close to Bonds


Greatest in baseball are Williams, Bonds, Mays, Aaron, and Ruth. Musial, Speaker, Hornsby, and Cobb are the next group of top players. Griffey is pretty far behind all of them. Didn't get on base, his fielding was over rated by the time he hit about 28 and then he was hurt pretty much all the way through his 30's. It's what will keep Pujols from getting onto their levels as well.

Bonds destroyed Griffey, badly. Even just in the 90's.

Numbers through the 90's

Batting Average/On Base Average/ Slugging Percentage - HR, RBI, SB/CS, fWAR

Bonds
.302/.434/.602 - 361, 1076, 343/94 , 81.3
Griffey
.302/.384/.581 - 382, 1091, 151/53 , 66.0

He was solidly better, and he was obviously better starting in 2000 as well.


I wouldn't put Griffey in the top 30 all time. And DiMaggio has already been passed by Pujols all time as well.

Bonds took steroids and it's already proven. You going to give him a pass? That's an automatic disqualification.

tredigs
08-23-2013, 01:30 AM
Bonds took steroids and it's already proven. You going to give him a pass? That's an automatic disqualification.

Like half the pitchers and half the batters? Seems like a tall order.

Anyway, notice his "Bonds destroyed Griffey, badly. Even just in the 90's" i.e. Griffey's prime and when Bonds was just a wiry young gun. And that's 100% correct. Before juicing, he was the best in the game, then he saw what the cool thing to do was, so he joined in himself. And turned what was already the best player into a ****ing baseball superhero.

OceanSpray
08-23-2013, 01:32 AM
Like half the pitchers and half the batters? Seems like a tall order.

Anyway, notice his "Bonds destroyed Griffey, badly. Even just in the 90's" i.e. Griffey's prime and when Bonds was just a wiry young gun. And that's 100% correct. Before juicing, he was the best in the game, then he saw what the cool thing to do was, so he joined in himself. And turned what was already the best player into a ****ing baseball superhero.

Juicing is juicing. Armstrong rightfully got what was coming. It's unfortunate baseball doesn't give a damn since nearly half the league are probably juicing. SF Giants were my favorite team but Bonds was a disgrace to baseball. I can't appreciate athletes who cheat their way into the record books.

tredigs
08-23-2013, 01:47 AM
Juicing is juicing. Armstrong rightfully got what was coming. It's unfortunate baseball doesn't give a damn since nearly half the league are probably juicing. SF Giants were my favorite team but Bonds was a disgrace to baseball. I can't appreciate athletes who cheat their way into the record books.
Okay, and he was still better than peak Griffey before juicing is the point. Regardless, there's no point in playing this game with baseball as each decade has their own breed of mass cheaters, and he was just one of the crowd.

And yes, Lance juiced. Remember what the finish was of the first non-definitive (doesn't mean he wasn't) juicer was in his final Tour De France? 24th, I think? Lance is a scapegoat for an epidemic. Let's not be too naive here.

And, MLB doesn't give a damn? Mitchell Report? Biogenesis deal? A-Rod + Braun gunned down along with countless others?

OceanSpray
08-23-2013, 01:51 AM
Okay, and he was still better than peak Griffey before juicing is the point. Regardless, there's no point in playing this game with baseball as each decade has their own breed of mass cheaters, and he was just one of the crowd.

And yes, Lance juiced. Remember what the finish was of the first non-definitive (doesn't mean he wasn't) juicer was in his final Tour De France? 24th, I think? Lance is a scapegoat for an epidemic. Let's not be too naive here.

And, MLB doesn't give a damn? Mitchell Report? Biogenesis deal? A-Rod + Braun gunned down along with countless others?

Never said he wasn't better. Just saying Barry should be banned from discussion because he's a juicer and he was at his best when juicing. If he wasn't juicing, I don't think he'd be worth anything. MLB really doesn't give a damn. Everyone knows MLB is full of juicers and yet there isn't a legitimate solution to prevent it. A-Rod got a jail free card and gets caught doing it again but is still playing to this day.. Give me a break.

IKnowHoops
08-23-2013, 01:53 AM
Griffey is no where close to Bonds


Greatest in baseball are Williams, Bonds, Mays, Aaron, and Ruth. Musial, Speaker, Hornsby, and Cobb are the next group of top players. Griffey is pretty far behind all of them. Didn't get on base, his fielding was over rated by the time he hit about 28 and then he was hurt pretty much all the way through his 30's. It's what will keep Pujols from getting onto their levels as well.

Bonds destroyed Griffey, badly. Even just in the 90's.

Numbers through the 90's

Batting Average/On Base Average/ Slugging Percentage - HR, RBI, SB/CS, fWAR

Bonds
.302/.434/.602 - 361, 1076, 343/94 , 81.3
Griffey
.302/.384/.581 - 382, 1091, 151/53 , 66.0

He was solidly better, and he was obviously better starting in 2000 as well.


I wouldn't put Griffey in the top 30 all time. And DiMaggio has already been passed by Pujols all time as well.

Age 21
Griffey 22HR 100RBI
Bonds 16HR 48RBI

Age 22
Griffey 27HR 103RBI
Bonds 25HR 59RBI

Age 23
Griffey 45HR 109RBI
Bonds 24HR 58RBI

Age 24
Griffey 40HR 90RBI
Bonds 19HR 58RBI

Age 25
Griffey 17HR 42RBI (Injured played 72 games)
Bonds 33HR 114 RBI

Age 26
Griffey 49HR 140RBI
Bonds 25HR 116RBI

Age 27
Griffey 56HR 147RBI
Bonds 34HR 103RBI

Age 28
Griffey 56HR 146RBI
Bonds 46HR 123RBI

Age 29
Griffey 48HR 134RBI
Bonds 37HR 81RBI

Age 30
Griffey 40HR 118 RBI - 2000
Bonds 33HR 104RBI - 1995

Now take off your cream and clear goggles for a second. But if you look, you will see that by age they peak at the same time, then they begin there decline like normal people. Now you will notice that Ken Griffey's power numbers dwarf Bonds numbers from AGE 21-30 or as I like to call them, the clean years.

Griffey trounced Bonds every age of there career until he got injured and Bonds got juiced. In non juiced years some years Griffey hits more than 20HR above bonds, and over 50 more RBI's. Not once in the first 10 years of there career did Bonds hit for better power numbers HR/RBI's than Griffey. (Save the year Griff got Hurt).

Without Juice, looking at these numbers, noone would have ever thought Bonds was better. You young bucks just remember 73. I was living during the time and watching them both. Bonds was great, but Griffey was better at the time because his power numbers killed Bonds as shown above, and he was a better outfielder. And had he not gotten injured, he would of broken the HR record without steroids and everyone knows that.

You can tell me about the advanced hitting stats and Ill say great, Ill take Griffey's production while they were both natural. You take his XYZ% and my team will win more.

Jeffy25
08-23-2013, 01:53 AM
Bonds took steroids and it's already proven. You going to give him a pass? That's an automatic disqualification.

Even if you want to disqualify him, he is more than double the value that Griffey ever created in the game.

no amount of steroids will make you twice the player of another hall of famer.


Either way, even if you disqualify Bonds, Griffey isn't close to a top 5 player of all time, I wouldn't put him in the top 30.

Age 21
Bonds - .223/.330/.416 - 103 OPS+ - 3.5 WAR
Griffey - .327/.399/.527 - 155 OPS+ - 7.1 WAR

Age 22
Bonds - .261/.329/.492 - 114 OPS+ - 5.8 WAR
Griffey - .308/.361/.535 - 149 OPS+ - 5.8 WAR

Age 23
Bonds - .283/.368/.491 - 148 OPS+ - 6.2 WAR
Griffey - .309/.408/.617 - 171 OPS+ - 8.8 WAR

Age 24
Bonds - .248/.351/.426 - 126 OPS+ - 8.0 WAR
Griffey - .323/.402/.674 - 171 OPS+ - 6.9 WAR

Age 25
Bonds - .301/.406/.565 - 170 OPS+ - 9.7 WAR
Griffey - .258/.379/.481 - 122 OPS+ - 3.3 WAR

Age 26
Bonds - .292/.410/.514 - 160 OPS+ - 7.9 WAR
Griffey - .303/.392/.628 - 154 OPS+ - 9.6 WAR

Age 27
Bonds - .311/.456/.624 - 204 OPS+ - 9.0 WAR
Griffey - .304/.382/.646 - 165 OPS+ - 9.1 WAR

Age 28
Bonds - .336/.458/.677 - 206 OPS+ - 9.9 WAR
Griffey - .284/.365/.611 - 150 OPS+ - 6.6 WAR

Age 29
Bonds - .312/.426/.647 - 183 OPS+ - 6.2 WAR
Griffey - .285/.384/.576 - 139 OPS+ - 5.0 WAR

Age 30
Bonds - .294/.431/.577 - 170 OPS+ - 7.5 WAR
Griffey - .271/.387/.556 - 133 OPS+ - 5.5 WAR

Totals

Bonds - .286/.398/.541 - 159 OPS+ - 73.7 WAR
Griffey - .299/.386/.590 - 152 OPS+ - 67.7 WAR

Bonds was better by age 24 over Griffey, and a better hitter rather quickly. And it goes very extreme obviously from this point forward, but you seem to think it should be disqualified?

Why Griffey? Why not Pujols?

Pujols destroys Griffey so badly.

Pujols through age 30
.331/.426/.624 - 172 OPS+ - 81.1 WAR

That's ownage.

Btw, I was born in 83, I grew up loving Griffey, but he isn't as great as you seem to think he was.

FreakaNashur
08-23-2013, 01:58 AM
Jordan. LeBron. (if he never played another game he'd be considered one of the greatest of times on talent)

OceanSpray
08-23-2013, 01:59 AM
Even if you want to disqualify him, he is more than double the value that Griffey ever created in the game.

no amount of steroids will make you twice the player of another hall of famer.

Either way, even if you disqualify Bonds, Griffey isn't close to a top 5 player of all time, I wouldn't put him in the top 30.

I don't think Griffey is top 5 but Bonds ain't top 5 for sure. He's not in the HOF cause he's a cheater. That goes for anyone in any sport as well. Cheaters can't be deemed GOAT.

tredigs
08-23-2013, 02:00 AM
Never said he wasn't better. Just saying Barry should be banned from discussion because he's a juicer and he was at his best when juicing. If he wasn't juicing, I don't think he'd be worth anything. MLB really doesn't give a damn. Everyone knows MLB is full of juicers and yet there isn't a legitimate solution to prevent it. A-Rod got a jail free card and gets caught doing it again but is still playing to this day.. Give me a break.

3 MVPs, 5+ Gold Gloves as one of the best outfielders in the game, 30-50 Stolen Bases a year, top 3 in WAR virtually the whole decade, led the decade in OPS, averaged ~30 HR a year... all this as the skinny Bonds before the age of 29. But yeah, "not worth anything". Your BBIQ sucks.

lol, please
08-23-2013, 02:07 AM
Jordan
Montana
Gretzky
Barry.Lamar.Bonds
Marciano
Maradona

Jeffy25
08-23-2013, 02:13 AM
I don't think Griffey is top 5 but Bonds ain't top 5 for sure. He's not in the HOF cause he's a cheater. That goes for anyone in any sport as well. Cheaters can't be deemed GOAT.

How do you know Griffey didn't use PED's?

JasonJohnHorn
08-23-2013, 02:13 AM
Well... I think in hockey people say 99 most of the time, but that is a lot of casual fans. I think there is a legit case for Mario Lemieux. If he hadn't gotten cancer...

Football... it is just impossible to tell because each position is specialized... a QB is nothing without a great line or a great wide receiver... a WR is nothing without a great QB... and a Running Back is nothing without a great line helping him and none of those positions can be compared with the other, not to mention defensive players.

Baseball (which I do not follow at all) I always thought it was Babe Ruth because not only was he the greatest hitter ever, but he was also a pitcher, and, as far as I know, there has never been a player to do both as well as Ruth.

But basketball is not a clear #1 either. I know many people who don't put Jordon on the top (myself included). Jordan was the most popular player at the time the league was at its height, so yes, a lot of people say MJ was the best.

But there was an article I read a while back. It said something to the effect of: Russell won all the championships; Wilt set all the records; Kareem broke all the records, and each of them says that best player they ever saw was Oscar Robertson.

I concede that there is a VERY good case for Jordan at number one, but I also recognize that there is an equally good case for: Wilt, Russell, Kareem, The Big O, and I will add Hakeem to that list as well (though most would not). Since Jordan retired, the only players I would mention in the same conversation as him are Duncan and LBJ, and I think most would concede to Shaq as well.

I think there are other player who could be mentioned as well. Obviously Bird and Magic top the list and then there is Dr. J, Barkley and Malone.

I would put Jordan ahead of most of these players, but not all of them and I don't think there is a clear cut choice for number one in basketball. Period. Jordon is simply the popular answer, not the quantitatively correct or universally accepted answer.

IKnowHoops
08-23-2013, 02:13 AM
Even if you want to disqualify him, he is more than double the value that Griffey ever created in the game.

no amount of steroids will make you twice the player of another hall of famer.


Either way, even if you disqualify Bonds, Griffey isn't close to a top 5 player of all time, I wouldn't put him in the top 30.

Get off the crack kid.

Bonds best year he hit 73HR and 137RBI
Griffeys best year he hit 56HR and 147RBI

Then Griffey's next 3 best seasons for HR/RBI are better than Bonds second best year for HR/RBI and that includes all of Bonds steroid years. If you took the top five seasons between the two of them for HR/RBI, Griffey has 4 of them. If he never used juice, he would have never had a year in which his power numbers were on the level of Griffey.

Also know at this time in during there best power hitting years, Bonds is on juice, Griffey in natural. Griffey is a golden glover. Bonds is DH sometimes and not near the top of fielders.

You have numbers to reflect on but you obviously didnt watch both play in there juice free primes.

IKnowHoops
08-23-2013, 02:30 AM
Even if you want to disqualify him, he is more than double the value that Griffey ever created in the game.

no amount of steroids will make you twice the player of another hall of famer.


Either way, even if you disqualify Bonds, Griffey isn't close to a top 5 player of all time, I wouldn't put him in the top 30.

Age 21
Bonds - .223/.330/.416 - 103 OPS+ - 3.5 WAR
Griffey - .327/.399/.527 - 155 OPS+ - 7.1 WAR

Age 22
Bonds - .261/.329/.492 - 114 OPS+ - 5.8 WAR
Griffey - .308/.361/.535 - 149 OPS+ - 5.8 WAR

Age 23
Bonds - .283/.368/.491 - 148 OPS+ - 6.2 WAR
Griffey - .309/.408/.617 - 171 OPS+ - 8.8 WAR

Age 24
Bonds - .248/.351/.426 - 126 OPS+ - 8.0 WAR
Griffey - .323/.402/.674 - 171 OPS+ - 6.9 WAR

Age 25
Bonds - .301/.406/.565 - 170 OPS+ - 9.7 WAR
Griffey - .258/.379/.481 - 122 OPS+ - 3.3 WAR

Age 26
Bonds - .292/.410/.514 - 160 OPS+ - 7.9 WAR
Griffey - .303/.392/.628 - 154 OPS+ - 9.6 WAR

Age 27
Bonds - .311/.456/.624 - 204 OPS+ - 9.0 WAR
Griffey - .304/.382/.646 - 165 OPS+ - 9.1 WAR

Age 28
Bonds - .336/.458/.677 - 206 OPS+ - 9.9 WAR
Griffey - .284/.365/.611 - 150 OPS+ - 6.6 WAR

Age 29
Bonds - .312/.426/.647 - 183 OPS+ - 6.2 WAR
Griffey - .285/.384/.576 - 139 OPS+ - 5.0 WAR

Age 30
Bonds - .294/.431/.577 - 170 OPS+ - 7.5 WAR
Griffey - .271/.387/.556 - 133 OPS+ - 5.5 WAR

Totals

Bonds - .286/.398/.541 - 159 OPS+ - 73.7 WAR
Griffey - .299/.386/.590 - 152 OPS+ - 67.7 WAR

Bonds was better by age 24 over Griffey, and a better hitter rather quickly. And it goes very extreme obviously from this point forward, but you seem to think it should be disqualified?

Why Griffey? Why not Pujols?

Pujols destroys Griffey so badly.

Pujols through age 30
.331/.426/.624 - 172 OPS+ - 81.1 WAR

That's ownage.

Btw, I was born in 83, I grew up loving Griffey, but he isn't as great as you seem to think he was.

Hey dude, you take your XYZ% and I'll take the Raw numbers. I mean at some point you just got to ask yourself what good are your XYZ% numbers when one guy is hitting 22 more HR and knocking in another 60 more RBI's. You keep your "best at hitting a ground ball at 6 o'clock with the sun in an eclipse" stats. Meanwhile at the end of the day every single year of there careers at the same age, Griffey is hitting more HR and knocking in more RBI's. Every year!!!!!!! Doubling him in HR some years!!!!!!! You take OPP. Im taking the production.

And why not puljos? Are you kidding me with that.

Griffey has 10 Gold Gloves. How many does Puljos have? What I thought. Get out of here with that amature B.S. Not top 30. hahahaha. He was like top 7 in HR and he was hurt from age 31-35. Puljos is a great hitter. But on defense Griffey is on another world.

Jeffy25
08-23-2013, 02:40 AM
Get off the crack kid.

Bonds best year he hit 73HR and 137RBI
Griffeys best year he hit 56HR and 147RBI

Then Griffey's next 3 best seasons for HR/RBI are better than Bonds second best year for HR/RBI and that includes all of Bonds steroid years. If you took the top five seasons between the two of them for HR/RBI, Griffey has 4 of them. If he never used juice, he would have never had a year in which his power numbers were on the level of Griffey.

Also know at this time in during there best power hitting years, Bonds is on juice, Griffey in natural. Griffey is a golden glover. Bonds is DH sometimes and not near the top of fielders.

You have numbers to reflect on but you obviously didnt watch both play in there juice free primes.

I'm not going to pretend to know anything about other sports, because I don't. I'm pretty ignorant to the information of the NBA, NFL, NHL, etc.

But baseball I do know.

And you got to stop looking at home runs and RBI's. They tell you almost nothing about a player.

The value in baseball is creating runs offensively, and saving runs defensively.

Griffey, in his career. Created 77 wins above the average replacement level player, and created 1892 runs, while defensively being worth about a -37 runs. He also gets a bonus of about 15 runs for his position throughout his career and a -11 runs for his base running.

So 77 wins, and 1859 runs created

Bonds created 164 wins above the league average replacement player. He created 2663 runs with his bat, another 26 with his base running, and another 190 with his defense. He does manage to lose 135 for playing left field so much though.

He comes out as 164 wins, and 2744 runs created.


He was far better than Griffey.

HR's and RBI's ignore so much of the game.

Like the fact that Bonds had 601 doubles and 77 triples and stole over 500 bases at a high success rate. Oh, and that he walked 2600 times in his career.

Griffey had 80 less doubles, 40 less triples, and walked 1300 less times. Oh, and he stole 400 less bases and was caught almost as many times as Bonds was.

Not to mention, again, that Bonds turned out to be better defensively, and he even played the worse position of the two.


And no, I don't know that Griffey was natural, and nor do you.


And yes, I did watch both play. I admired Griffey, and Bonds was a total punk with his Mike Tyson voice, ******** earring, and ******* attitude.

But he was the better baseball player, roids or not. He was far and away better.


Regardless, Griffey belongs no where close to the top 5 or 10 all time. He, Nolan Ryan, and Pete Rose are the three most over-rated baseball players of all time.

Bishnoff
08-23-2013, 02:44 AM
This dude's accomplishments are almost like someone made them up. Wilt Chamberlain esque numbers.

Yep, Don Bradman was a freak. And the bowling back in those days was crazy. The English had a tactic to try and get Bradman (and other Aussies) out called "bodyline" where they'd continually bowl at the body of batsman to try and intimidate and injure them. The governing bodies of Cricket progressively changed the rules to prevent this tactic being used.

Jeffy25
08-23-2013, 02:46 AM
Hey dude, you take your XYZ% and I'll take the Raw numbers. I mean at some point you just got to ask yourself what good are your XYZ% numbers when one guy is hitting 22 more HR and knocking in another 60 more RBI's. You keep your "best at hitting a ground ball at 6 o'clock with the sun in an eclipse" stats. Meanwhile at the end of the day every single year of there careers at the same age, Griffey is hitting more HR and knocking in more RBI's. Every year!!!!!!! Doubling him in HR some years!!!!!!! You take OPP. Im taking the production.

And why not puljos? Are you kidding me with that.

Griffey has 10 Gold Gloves. How many does Puljos have? What I thought. Get out of here with that amature B.S. Not top 30. hahahaha. He was like top 7 in HR and he was hurt from age 31-35. Puljos is a great hitter. But on defense Griffey is on another world.

I guess the XYZ numbers are great and all.

Like showing the fact that Bonds walked 2600 times to Griffey's 1300. That he stole 400 more bases and was caught almost the same number of times.

All you are doing is looking at home runs and RBI's (which are team reliant).

You want raw production, there it is. Want to add to it? Bonds also struck out 200 less times....and 1300 more walks? He was on base 1400 more times than Griffey and made 40 less career outs.

That's raw production.

As for the gold glove argument. It's inherently flawed.

Unless you can look at 1999 first basemen Rafael Palmerio winning the award when he only played 28 games there all season.

Bishnoff
08-23-2013, 02:49 AM
Like I said... I don't follow cricket.

On the Tiger Woods thing, go out to school / work tomorrow and ask 5 random people to name a golfer not named Tiger.

Tomorrow is the weekend in Australia and I'm 28 years old so no more school for me, but I agree that the average person (who knows little about golf) will say "Tiger" when asked to name a golfer (and probably can't name another golfer). That doesn't mean that Tiger is the clear best of all time, just the best of the modern era, and easily the most famous (and not just for his golf exploits).

J4KOP99
08-23-2013, 02:51 AM
Lol. Only in the PSD NBA forum will you have someone argue that Jr. Griffey is a better baseball player than Barry Bonds.

abe_froman
08-23-2013, 02:55 AM
Lol. Only in the PSD NBA forum will you have someone argue that Jr. Griffey is a better baseball player than Barry Bonds.
:laugh2: i know!!!

J4KOP99
08-23-2013, 02:57 AM
The NBA Forum: Where logic and reason go to die.

Jeffy25
08-23-2013, 02:58 AM
Tomorrow is the weekend in Australia and I'm 28 years old so no more school for me, but I agree that the average person (who knows little about golf) will say "Tiger" when asked to name a golfer. That doesn't mean he's the best, just the best of the modern era.

And we have short termed memories to begin with.

I don't pay enough attention to other sports. I am a MLB fan all the way, with the NBA being a distant second.

And then the NFL, NHL, etc are way down there. So take my list with a grain of salt

MLB - Ruth, Bonds, Williams, Mays, Aaron are your position players, Mathewson, Johnson, Clemens are your pitchers. Ruth and Bonds kind of have it locked up though in terms of total value created.

NBA - Chamerlain and MJ? I assume MJ just because I so vividly remember him being amazing. I feel like Lebron could potentially get there as well. Historically though, I have no idea who else is up there? Jabbar? Russell? I feel like Bird and Magic are probably behind MJ, is that accurate? I really don't know

NHL - I'd say it's the Great One all the way. Lemiux has to be up there, but I assume Wayne, right?

NFL - Payton, Sanders, Marino, Montana, Rice? I don't know. I feel like you would have to define each position to say who was the consensus leader of the sport. I have no idea where these guys rank.

Golf - I'd assume Woods. But I bet Hagen, Nicklaus, and Hogan have got to be up there, right? Maybe even Watson, Snead, and Player as well?

Soccer - I couldn't even tell you three active soccer players, so I'm clueless

Bowling and Nascar, and everything else - I pay literally zero attention to.

metswon69
08-23-2013, 03:01 AM
Although i believe Jordan is the best, at least it's a debatable topic of discussion when it comes to fellow NBA players like Chamberlain, Russell, Abdul Jabbar, etc. Same with baseball, you can't go wrong with Bonds, Mays, or Ruth.

You can't say that about hockey however.

Gretzky will always be the best.

Think about it. Gretzky has more assists than anyone has points. He could have retired having never scored a single goal and he would have still been the all time NHL leader in points.

Jeffy25
08-23-2013, 03:02 AM
Willie mays was better than Aaron, Griffey, and DiMaggio.

:nod:

Jeffy25
08-23-2013, 03:05 AM
The point of the thread, is asking, in the public mass perception, are there sports where one player stands out as the GOAT?

Yes, in the NBA, and NHL. If you polled all the hockey fans around the world, don't you think Gretzky would win in an absolute runaway?


Not in baseball there isn't.

Ruth was caught up with by Williams (even though he missed 5 years to service in the war, prime years too), Bonds, and Mays. But he is considered the GOAT because of his pitching and being the first great one.

I would venture that Gretzky has the most unanimous margin of any of the four major sports.

abe_froman
08-23-2013, 03:17 AM
NBA - Chamerlain and MJ? I assume MJ just because I so vividly remember him being amazing. I feel like Lebron could potentially get there as well. Historically though, I have no idea who else is up there? Jabbar? Russell? I feel like Bird and Magic are probably behind MJ, is that accurate? I really don't know
.

general its mj out in front by a substantial margin(like 99% would say so).with wilt and kareem getting a few votes,so they usually make up the top 3.russell, kobe,duncan,lebron,hakeem,shaq,bird,magic usually making up the rest of first tier guys/fighting over the rest of the top 10/11 spots in some order

metswon69
08-23-2013, 03:21 AM
Not in baseball there isn't.

Ruth was caught up with by Williams (even though he missed 5 years to service in the war, prime years too), Bonds, and Mays. But he is considered the GOAT because of his pitching and being the first great one.

I would venture that Gretzky has the most unanimous margin of any of the four major sports.

Yeah i certainly think Williams would have eclipsed everyone's value all time had he not lost those 3 full years to WW2 and most of 52' and 53' to the Korean War.

I kind of look at Ruth and Chamberlain the same way. The most dominant players of their era but not the best players of all time if that makes any sense.

With Gretzky there is zero question. There is an argument that Lemieux was the more pure goal scorer but nobody was quite like the great one. Again, he could never registered a goal and he would have still been the all time points leader.

LAKERMANIA
08-23-2013, 03:50 AM
they were the same age on the same team (same line even?) when Gretzky started his madness, are you thinking of somebody else?
Gretzky was traded to the Kings, he didn't play with Messier his whole career.

Drummond#1
08-23-2013, 04:03 AM
Kelly Slater- Surfing

Scott Jurek- Ultrarunning

KingPosey
08-23-2013, 05:16 AM
Without a doubt Gretzky

KingPosey
08-23-2013, 05:22 AM
Get off the crack kid.

Bonds best year he hit 73HR and 137RBI
Griffeys best year he hit 56HR and 147RBI

Then Griffey's next 3 best seasons for HR/RBI are better than Bonds second best year for HR/RBI and that includes all of Bonds steroid years. If you took the top five seasons between the two of them for HR/RBI, Griffey has 4 of them. If he never used juice, he would have never had a year in which his power numbers were on the level of Griffey.

Also know at this time in during there best power hitting years, Bonds is on juice, Griffey in natural. Griffey is a golden glover. Bonds is DH sometimes and not near the top of fielders.

You have numbers to reflect on but you obviously didnt watch both play in there juice free primes.

Bonds wasnt a good fielder in his career? He has several times over the amount of your "gold gloves" than Griff has, and he was maybe the best LF to ever play the game lol. You dont want to start this argument, especially the way you just tried to. You'll get torched.

Homers and RBIs lol? Good god.

asandhu23
08-23-2013, 05:34 AM
general its mj out in front by a substantial margin(like 99% would say so).with wilt and kareem getting a few votes,so they usually make up the top 3.russell, kobe,duncan,lebron,hakeem,shaq,bird,magic usually making up the rest of first tier guys/fighting over the rest of the top 10/11 spots in some order

Doubt it. Chamberlain base is pretty big. I am going with 75-25.

Jordan has a huge advantage popularity wise because he had a whole lot more media exposure than Wilt.

eugene
08-23-2013, 06:38 AM
Hockey: Jaromir Jagr

PurpleLynch
08-23-2013, 07:16 AM
I think that when he retires, Messi will be the GOAT (and that's coming from a huge Real Madrid fan).

Messi is a strong case,I didn't put it in my list because is young and he can prove a lot in the future.But probably yes,even if I dunno if Barcelona is going to win CL in these next years...

Quinnsanity
08-23-2013, 07:58 AM
I've heard a lot of hockey diehards claim that Bobby Orr was the greatest player of all time, but the masses never deny Gretzky. What takes priority? In that sense Jordan has an edge over Gretzky.

torocan
08-23-2013, 09:30 AM
Doubt it. Chamberlain base is pretty big. I am going with 75-25.

Jordan has a huge advantage popularity wise because he had a whole lot more media exposure than Wilt.

Not just media advantage, but the advantage of recent memory.

There's a LOT of basketball fans who never saw Magic Johnson play, let alone KAJ or Wilt who are even further removed from memory. Time has a way of erasing greatness, and when unable to compare the statistics they often bring up the "different era" argument.

As for sports with dominating figures, there are LOTS of sports with players who have true Greats that would have more consensus as the GOAT than MJ.

Phelps, Bolt, Gretzky, and Don Bradman all have less debate when comparing the spans of their careers or dominance of the sport.

Soccer is more up in the air. Maradona, Pele and Messi are all legitimately in the conversation.
Basketball you could talk MJ, KAJ or Wilt without batting an eye.
Football is very hard to say since it's so position based.
Baseball suffers the same era problem as Basketball.
Golf is basically between Nicklaus and Tiger and won't be settled until Tiger's career is done.

Here's a few others...

Jahangir Kahn - Men's squash. 6 World opens. 10 British opens. 555 consecutive games won between 1981 and 1986. That's not matches, that's 555 consecutive GAMES without a loss. When he got bored of softball squash (International), he decided to play hard ball (North American) and won 12/13 tournaments he participated in.

Heather McKay - Women's squash. Never lost a single match between 1962 and 1981. That's no joke. Not a single match, championship or otherwise. 19 years without a loss... mind boggling.

Alexander Karelin - Men's wrestling. 3 straight gold medals. 13 consecutive years without losing a single match. 6 straight years without giving up a SINGLE POINT. Yes, you read that... 6 years without conceding a point in wrestling.

When it comes to the undisputed greatest of all time in their respective Sports, MJ might not even crack the top 10...

YankeesR#2
08-23-2013, 09:41 AM
I have to remember when I am posting here that most posters are relative children and like children they believe history started when they were born.

Anyone who knows anything about hockey will agree that Bobby Orr was the greatest player of all time not only because he had the best skills, he played offense, defense and you never had to have another player on the ice to protect him but also because he changed the way the game was played.

http://espn.go.com/sportscentury/features/00016391.html


Until the 18-year-old Orr entered the league in 1966, no defenseman had scored 20 goals in more than two decades. Orr did it seven straight seasons (1968-69 until 1974-75), five times scoring more than 30 goals, and once 46. Twice he won the Art Ross Trophy for leading the league in scoring (that's twice more than any defenseman in the game's history).
No defenseman besides Orr has ever led the league in assists; he did it five times. Not only was the first defenseman to record 100 assists in a season, he was the first player to do so.

If you want to look at plus/minus which is the best way to measure a player because it takes into consideration the goals scored when he was on the ice, Orr's plus/minus for his career was +.95 per game. The next best was Larry Robinson at +.53. Gretzky's was +.38.

JoeBlessU
08-23-2013, 09:53 AM
I have to remember when I am posting here that most posters are relative children and like children they believe history started when they were born.

Anyone who knows anything about hockey will agree that Bobby Orr was the greatest player of all time not only because he had the best skills, he played offense, defense and you never had to have another player on the ice to protect him but also because he changed the way the game was played.

http://espn.go.com/sportscentury/features/00016391.html


Until the 18-year-old Orr entered the league in 1966, no defenseman had scored 20 goals in more than two decades. Orr did it seven straight seasons (1968-69 until 1974-75), five times scoring more than 30 goals, and once 46. Twice he won the Art Ross Trophy for leading the league in scoring (that's twice more than any defenseman in the game's history).
No defenseman besides Orr has ever led the league in assists; he did it five times. Not only was the first defenseman to record 100 assists in a season, he was the first player to do so.

If you want to look at plus/minus which is the best way to measure a player because it takes into consideration the goals scored when he was on the ice, Orr's plus/minus for his career was +.95 per game. The next best was Larry Robinson at +.53. Gretzky's was +.38.

Thank You!!!... Finally someone with some hockey intelligence. I made this same argument yesterday and got destroyed for it.

ChickenSouvlaki
08-23-2013, 09:54 AM
I disagree on the Wayne Gretzky argument. Yes, most will say he's the best ever, but there certainly is an argument for others.

A lot of things went into Greatzky's raw numbers being absolutely insane including his era and his team mates. I dont want to get into that because I dont have 5 hours to spare.

My personal opinion: Mario Lemieux is the greatest hockey player ever. At 6'4 230 he was a beast, with insane hands. As a hockey fan, I can accept that one of Gretzky, Orr, or Lemieux as the best of all time. Any of them have an argument. Outside of those three, its a huge stretch. I would say about 70-75% of knowledgeable hockey fans would say Wayne is the GOAT though.

4milesperday
08-23-2013, 10:01 AM
Jordan is the honorary best player, not actually the best ever. He was very marketable and popular...but in all seriousness, without Pippen, Michael might not even have a ring. Pippen was better than the best player on almost every team at the time, and was more consistent that MJ.

JoeBlessU
08-23-2013, 10:12 AM
I disagree on the Wayne Gretzky argument. Yes, most will say he's the best ever, but there certainly is an argument for others.

A lot of things went into Greatzky's raw numbers being absolutely insane including his era and his team mates. I dont want to get into that because I dont have 5 hours to spare.

My personal opinion: Mario Lemieux is the greatest hockey player ever. At 6'4 230 he was a beast, with insane hands. As a hockey fan, I can accept that one of Gretzky, Orr, or Lemieux as the best of all time. Any of them have an argument. Outside of those three, its a huge stretch. I would say about 70-75% of knowledgeable hockey fans would say Wayne is the GOAT though.


I can see that.. Wayne was def the flashiest of all those guys, altho Lemiuex had some flash as well.. I think it just depends on what type of player you like to watch, a high volume scorer or a gritty, do it all defenseman.. I prefer Orr but its debatable, no doubt.

ShockerArt
08-23-2013, 10:15 AM
I was also going to point out that Orr gets a lot of votes from the older hockey die hards. The masses would select Gretzky, but I think Orr's support is more legitimate than any of Jordan's competition for the hoops GOAT.

Pablonovi
08-23-2013, 10:54 AM
Basketball:
I don't really like to get into the "What If's" especially regarding injuries.
So, for the moment let's leave their career achievements as is amongst: MJ, KAJ and Wilt.
Now, let's imagine
MJ having KAJ's personality and lack of sports-writers sympathy and lack of TV Spectacularlism;
KAJ with MJ's personality, sports-writers love and mega TV- coverage.
I think we might not even been having this conversation. Afterall, KAJ had 5 Great Years more than MJ - that's a lot!

Now imagine Wilt with MJ's coverage. He was WAY MORE dominant in his era than MJ (or KAJ).

In any event, imo, you can't say that MJ is way ahead of KAJ and Wilt; you just can't.

Which means he doesn't win the "relative-to-their-sport's top competitors" Greatest #1.

I am changing my opinion about Gretsky compared to Mario and Orr - for the same reason: he can NOT be said to have been way more dominant than them.

So that would leave other sports.
In the NFL; most people say: Jerry Rice (and this despite NOT being a QB). No QB, not even Montana, say, is WAY BETTER than other top 5-ers. Then you have the RBs. So, whoever you go with was NOT WAY BETTER than the #2 - so that eliminates (U.S.) football.

Same with baseball: No one was way better than the #2.

So that leaves the non 4 major pro sports.
Soccer: Pele, Maradonna and Messi all cancel each other out; none of them is WAY better than the other two.

So then that gets us down to a whole slew of sports that have had way LESS TV coverage than the Big 4 + Soccer.

The only two I know enough to have a strong (and informed) opinion on involve running:

400 Meter Hurdles: Edwin Moses (122 consec. wins during almost 10 years, 2 Oly. Golds + 1 Bronze, almost exactly 1/4 of the All-Time Top 100 Fastest Races (24 out of 98!)) In comparison, there'd be much debate about who might be #2 all-time and they'd be light-years behind Edwin Moses = Total Dominance.

Women's Marathon: Paula Radcliffe: (Top 3 All-Time Best Times and 4 of 7 with her best time being shockingly better than anybody else's best time * ; (the 2nd best woman has only the #5 performance and tied for #10); 3 wins each (in a 6 separate years total) in the 2 biggest marathons against great fields: London (2002, 2003, 2005) AND New York (2004, 2007, 2008); qualified an unheralded 5 consecutive times for the Olympic Marathon (over a 16 year! stretch: 1996, 2000, 2004, 2008, 2012). In comparison, there'd be much debate about who might be #2 all-time and they'd be light-years behind Paula Radcliffe = Total Dominance.

* Her World Record of 2:15:25 (now UNAPPROACHED for 10+ years !) is one of the highest of score's values in terms of the IAAF World ranking points.

N.B. Although it is NOT in the Marathon, Radcliffe is also the current world record holder for the women's road 10k in a time of 30 minutes and 21 seconds, which she set on 23 February 2003 in the World's Best 10K in San Juan, Puerto Rico. (Another World Record that has now lasted 10+ years !)

P.S. Consider also the unique requirements of Total Dominance in these two sports:

Edwin Moses himself acknowledged that to beat him you'd need (his) almost world-record 100-400 meter speed plus incredible co-ordination for "interrupting" that raw speed with jumping 10 hurdles.

Paula Radcliffe's marathons lasted at least 2 hours 15 minutes; during which she could NOT take a second off (or should would have stopped moving)! Marathons present racers with a large variety of (changing) conditions (sunlight-shade-rain, wind; heat-cold; potholes, curves, hills; spectators who are NOT forced to stay off the course; aid-stations; etc)

Greet
08-23-2013, 12:14 PM
All these arguments are great and all, but it's clear the the only legit #1 is Phelps. No one has dominated a sport like him.

Greet
08-23-2013, 12:20 PM
Also, people are forgetting Ted Williams who IMO is the greatest baseball player of all time.

Pablonovi
08-23-2013, 12:25 PM
All these arguments are great and all, but it's clear the the only legit #1 is Phelps. No one has dominated a sport like him.

Hey Greet,
You could NOT be more wrong. Mark Spitz was virtually equally as dominant. Further, in each of Phelps victories, the margin of victory was miniscule. So, while he was, almost for sure, history's greatest swimmer; he was NOT way greater (way more dominant over the All-Time #2, Spitz; nor over his contemporaries). Remember too: Some of the Olympic swimming events are very similar to each other - so, as many experts agree, his number of world records and victories is definitely inflated by this. (btw, this explains why the same (small group of) guys tended to finish right behind him in many of those races.)

Like MJ, (and Arm-weak in cycling), so to with Phelps: TV monster coverage must warp (in their favor) the fans perceptions of how great/dominant they were.

An example (prior to Armstrong's fall-from-grace): Ask all of the U.S.: "Who is History's Greatest Cyclist?" and you'd get 99% for Lance. But Merkyx decade+-long year-round dominance (not just in one race, the Tour de France); is FAR superior than even the totally juiced Lance. That's the power of TV in the U.S.

Further, team-cycling is called that because it IS definitely a team sport. Lance's teams always outspent most of the other teams; Lance's teams were always the best 9-man groups at the Tour. He had virtually the best as teammates for every aspect of the competition: mountain-climbers, sprinters, team-time-trialists, and, generally, domestiques. How many times would we see the other teams with only 1 guy in the winning break-away; and there would be Lance parked behind his ASSIGNED domestique, doing much of the work (wind-breaking for example; checking the moves of others too) for him? All of that is a HUGE advantage. And yet, even with all those advantages, his average margin of victory in his 7 "wins" at the Tour; was perhaps 3 minutes spread over 21 days of cycling taking 80 or so hours. (For example, the 2013 Tour took the winner 84 hours and he won by 4 minutes overall.) That was a tiny win-margin for so much team-advantage for Lance.

But TV-coverage usually trumps all as far as public opinion goes. Isn't this the case with Tiger over Nicklaus (and other historic golf greats); or Federev over Sampras (etc.)? And some sports, particularly Professional Major-4 Sports (even bowling because of huge TV-revenues) over others like Track-And-Field (running events, etc.) or many other sports, including Extreme Sports (which may be somewhat catching up)?

ghettosean
08-23-2013, 12:28 PM
It's obvious that "The Pro Stars" are the best of all time --> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXiShTDcr1I

mdm692
08-23-2013, 12:31 PM
Messi lol. He hasn't even been near a WC final.

ghettosean
08-23-2013, 12:33 PM
I understand why everyone is picking Gretzky but I thought someone would have talked about Mario Lemieux by now... He was on pace to really challenge him before he got injured.

Greet
08-23-2013, 12:35 PM
Hey Greet,
You could NOT be more wrong. Mark Spitz was virtually equally as dominant. Further, in each of Phelps victories, the margin of victory was miniscule. So, while he was, almost for sure, history's greatest swimmer; he was NOT way greater (way more dominant over the All-Time #2, Spitz; nor over his contemporaries). Remember too: Some of the Olympic swimming events are very similar to each other - so, as many experts agree, his number of world records and victories is definitely inflated by this. (btw, this explains why the same (small group of) guys tended to finish right behind him in many of those races.)

Like MJ, (and Arm-weak in cycling), so to with Phelps: TV monster coverage must warp (in their favor) the fans perceptions of how great/dominant they were.

An example (prior to Armstrong's fall-from-grace): Ask all of the U.S.: "Who is History's Greatest Cyclist?" and you'd get 99% for Lance. But Merkyx decade+-long year-round dominance (not just in one race, the Tour de France); is FAR superior than even the totally juiced Lance. That's the power of TV in the U.S.

Further, team-cycling is called that because it IS definitely a team sport. Lance's teams always outspent most of the other teams; Lance's teams were always the best 9-man groups at the Tour. He had virtually the best as teammates for every aspect of the competition: mountain-climbers, sprinters, team-time-trialists, and, generally, domestiques. How many times would we see the other teams with only 1 guy in the winning break-away; and there would be Lance parked behind his ASSIGNED domestique, doing much of the work (wind-breaking for example; checking the moves of others too) for him? All of that is a HUGE advantage.

But TV-coverage usually trumps all as far as public opinion goes. Isn't this the case with Tiger over Nicklaus (and other historic golf greats); or Federev over Sampras (etc.)?

Yea but the difference is that Phelps rips bong..... So he gets a bit more credit

Pablonovi
08-23-2013, 12:46 PM
Yea but the difference is that Phelps rips bong..... So he gets a bit more credit

Good point, hehe. I guess he does rank "high-est".

tredigs
08-23-2013, 01:09 PM
Get off the crack kid.

Bonds best year he hit 73HR and 137RBI
Griffeys best year he hit 56HR and 147RBI

Then Griffey's next 3 best seasons for HR/RBI are better than Bonds second best year for HR/RBI and that includes all of Bonds steroid years. If you took the top five seasons between the two of them for HR/RBI, Griffey has 4 of them. If he never used juice, he would have never had a year in which his power numbers were on the level of Griffey.

Also know at this time in during there best power hitting years, Bonds is on juice, Griffey in natural. Griffey is a golden glover. Bonds is DH sometimes and not near the top of fielders.

You have numbers to reflect on but you obviously didnt watch both play in there juice free primes.


I'm not going to pretend to know anything about other sports, because I don't. I'm pretty ignorant to the information of the NBA, NFL, NHL, etc.

But baseball I do know.

And you got to stop looking at home runs and RBI's. They tell you almost nothing about a player.

The value in baseball is creating runs offensively, and saving runs defensively.

Griffey, in his career. Created 77 wins above the average replacement level player, and created 1892 runs, while defensively being worth about a -37 runs. He also gets a bonus of about 15 runs for his position throughout his career and a -11 runs for his base running.

So 77 wins, and 1859 runs created

Bonds created 164 wins above the league average replacement player. He created 2663 runs with his bat, another 26 with his base running, and another 190 with his defense. He does manage to lose 135 for playing left field so much though.

He comes out as 164 wins, and 2744 runs created.


He was far better than Griffey.

HR's and RBI's ignore so much of the game.

Like the fact that Bonds had 601 doubles and 77 triples and stole over 500 bases at a high success rate. Oh, and that he walked 2600 times in his career.

Griffey had 80 less doubles, 40 less triples, and walked 1300 less times. Oh, and he stole 400 less bases and was caught almost as many times as Bonds was.

Not to mention, again, that Bonds turned out to be better defensively, and he even played the worse position of the two.


And no, I don't know that Griffey was natural, and nor do you.


And yes, I did watch both play. I admired Griffey, and Bonds was a total punk with his Mike Tyson voice, ******** earring, and ******* attitude.

But he was the better baseball player, roids or not. He was far and away better.


Regardless, Griffey belongs no where close to the top 5 or 10 all time. He, Nolan Ryan, and Pete Rose are the three most over-rated baseball players of all time.

I love this rebuttal, because it so easily illustrates why Bonds' value killed Griffey's without having to blast them with sabermetrics that few here will know. Being the better HR hitter in your youth is a bonus and definitely fun to watch, but if it's not complemented by the walks, extra base hits, solid base running, etc that another player has over you, they're futile in a head 2 head.

I'm about your age and grew up playing/watching tons of baseball in the Bay Area as a big time A's + Braves fan (long story), with my favorite outside player being Griffey (like most). So between the Pirates playoff series versus Atlanta and then Barry coming to SF (the team I hated most outside of the Twins), along with his attitude, there's no player I disliked more. And yet, no player I respected more. Roids or not, that guy was not human in the box for SF. And it wasn't just his power, it was his eye and ability to hit it with such precision (even if it was going at the shift). The only two players I've seen with that much bat control were Barry and Gwynn. Gwynn's was easily better, but Barry's eye and patience for walking was equally impressive. To write it off as roids is over simplistic and frankly stupid.

IKnowHoops
08-23-2013, 01:33 PM
As I stated before, I love Bonds, and I will admit that there are a lot of things Bonds did better than Griffey. And overall, Bonds is a more rounded player. But without juice, Griffey was twice the power hitter that Bonds is. And if HR and RBI don't matter, why do we care who wins the triple crown since HR and RBI's are associated with it. Why is cabrera considered the best, mainly because of his HR and RBI's. My second favorite player was Frank Thomas because again I love the power hitting. Bonds was a great player with good power hitting. Griffey was a great player with great power hitting numbers. Bonds got more walks, more steals. Alot of your numbers are due to the fact that Griffey got hurt, and Bonds extended his career about 8 years with juice. Looking at the numbers from 21-30, Ill take Griffey. Once Bonds got the juice it was over.

lamzoka
08-23-2013, 01:36 PM
Usain Bolts
Floyd Mayweather
Serena Williams
Micheal Phleps

tredigs
08-23-2013, 01:45 PM
Usain Bolts /
Floyd Mayweather
Serena Williams
Micheal Phleps

Usain Bolt -- Close, with Jessee Owens and Carl Lewis. Though Lewis was a big time juicer (Bolt may be too).
Floyd Mayweather -- Hell no, Sugar Ray.
Serena Williams -- Agreed, good choice.
Phelps -- He has a great argument, but Spitz is there.

Pablonovi
08-23-2013, 01:49 PM
Usain Bolts
Floyd Mayweather
Serena Williams
Micheal Phleps

Hey lamzoka,
Phelps: I've already weighed in on him (probably THE best ever swimmer; but NOT way better than Spitz).

Floyd Mayweather: You gotta be kidding; he's NOT even far and away the best fighter of his own division in his own little epoch.

Serena: I don't think you can even say that she's way better than her sister, Venus; much less people like Martina Navratilova; Chris Evert and Billie Jean King (before them).

This leaves Usain Bolt. Yes, he's awesome. But let's not forget Carl Lewis, please! Is Bolt way better than Lewis; I couldn't go that far.

So, If all you wanted to do was name four greats, you've accomplished that - nice job. BUT, as run-away #1s in history for their perspective sports; FAIL. Sorry, you probably need to check out some earlier history.

Pablonovi
08-23-2013, 02:10 PM
Usain Bolt -- Close, with Jessee Owens and Carl Lewis. Though Lewis was a big time juicer (Bolt may be too).
Floyd Mayweather -- Hell no, Sugar Ray.
Serena Williams -- Agreed, good choice.
Phelps -- He has a great argument, but Spitz is there.

Hey tredigs,
Right on using Sugar Ray (as just one and sufficient answer);
See my previous comments about Serena and Phelps.
But, damn, how could I have forgotten Jesse Owens!!! (I've embarrassed myself AGAIN).

BHF
08-23-2013, 02:13 PM
what about Michael Schumacher?

CostanzaNumba0
08-23-2013, 02:21 PM
Babe Ruth hit more homeruns than teams. He won over 100 games as a pitcher. Anyone who knows the sport has ruth as the unanimous number 1- just as much as jordan.

todu82
08-23-2013, 02:26 PM
In hockey you have defenseman Bobby Orr as the only guy with Gretzky to be considered #1 in hockey.

Pacerlive
08-23-2013, 02:36 PM
what about Michael Schumacher?

That's the name that I thought wouldn't get mentioned when it should be close to the top of the list.

John Force is another with over a hundred and some wins and 15 championships.

tredigs
08-23-2013, 02:45 PM
That's the name that I thought wouldn't get mentioned when it should be close to the top of the list.

John Force is another with over a hundred and some wins and 15 championships.

Both good calls.

IKnowHoops
08-23-2013, 03:16 PM
Bonds wasnt a good fielder in his career? He has several times over the amount of your "gold gloves" than Griff has, and he was maybe the best LF to ever play the game lol. You dont want to start this argument, especially the way you just tried to. You'll get torched.

Homers and RBIs lol? Good god.

Griffey has 10 Gold Gloved
Bonds has 8 Gold Gloves

When you say he has several times over the amount that Griffey has, what are you referring to?

IKnowHoops
08-23-2013, 03:25 PM
Hey lamzoka,
Phelps: I've already weighed in on him (probably THE best ever swimmer; but NOT way better than Spitz).

Floyd Mayweather: You gotta be kidding; he's NOT even far and away the best fighter of his own division in his own little epoch.

Serena: I don't think you can even say that she's way better than her sister, Venus; much less people like Martina Navratilova; Chris Evert and Billie Jean King (before them).

This leaves Usain Bolt. Yes, he's awesome. But let's not forget Carl Lewis, please! Is Bolt way better than Lewis; I couldn't go that far.

So, If all you wanted to do was name four greats, you've accomplished that - nice job. BUT, as run-away #1s in history for their perspective sports; FAIL. Sorry, you probably need to check out some earlier history.

Noone is the best by far. Even Jordan gets his challenges from Wilt, KAJ, and already Lebron. But Usain is clearly the best now because he currently holds all the records. If he was winning the same as he is now, but Carl Lewis still held all the records, then Carl would still be the GOAT. But the great thing about track is we no who is the absolute best/fastest because there exact time is displayed. If all the greats lined up, Usain would win both the 100 and 200 for sure without a doubt. So because of this Usain is the greatest. Yes longevity does also matter, and he does have the longevity to back it up now too.

JoeBlessU
08-23-2013, 03:42 PM
[QUOTE=IKnowHoops;26938266]QUOTE]

Gave up on your whole Gretzky has more assists than anyone has points argument ehhh?...

AnthonyTyrael
08-23-2013, 04:01 PM
what about Michael Schumacher?

He's impressive and I'm a fan but oh well... The way he won his first championship against Hill plus his come back with Mercedes.. well he messed it up... Jordan and others have done better. Rather name Loeb. Racing on the other side really depends much on the technology that you have. So NASCAR etc., I'm talking about race cars being at the same level, equal chances, than that's easier to decide who's the better driver.

AnthonyTyrael
08-23-2013, 04:11 PM
Noone is the best by far. Even Jordan gets his challenges from Wilt, KAJ, and already Lebron. But Usain is clearly the best now because he currently holds all the records. If he was winning the same as he is now, but Carl Lewis still held all the records, then Carl would still be the GOAT. But the great thing about track is we no who is the absolute best/fastest because there exact time is displayed. If all the greats lined up, Usain would win both the 100 and 200 for sure without a doubt. So because of this Usain is the greatest. Yes longevity does also matter, and he does have the longevity to back it up now too.

I highly doubt it and just a few days ago, you could clearly see why.

He might be the most drugged athlete on the planet right now. The way he just broke those records... it's impossible in human nature.

Especially over 200 metres. It took how long.... 20+ years or so for Johnson to get below the 19.72 seconds mark, when he run 19.66. Then he broke it again and set it out of the sudden to the mark of 19.32 seconds. This was already a huge step in human evolution, a quantum, if you think about it. Either he was drugged, a once in a history, not lifetime, runner or whatever... but this wasn't for real. Almost same you could say for the 100 metres world record that he's holding. Just look all the runners before him, at the history of the record
and tell me that's possible just by being "gifted" with talent and by hard work.

IKnowHoops
08-23-2013, 04:16 PM
[QUOTE=IKnowHoops;26938266]QUOTE]

Gave up on your whole Gretzky has more assists than anyone has points argument ehhh?...

No, more than enough people were bashing your head in so I just didn't want to beat a dead horse. You should be thanking me, not asking for more.

Im in a debate where maybe less than half the stats are on my side so I'm having more fun with it. Unlike my debate with you where everything land slided in Gretsky's favor accept for that one stat that one year you pointed out that supposedly gave it to Ore.

I thought you had already tucked tail an run. You still want more?

Heatcheck
08-23-2013, 04:20 PM
Babe Ruth hit more homeruns than teams. He won over 100 games as a pitcher. Anyone who knows the sport has ruth as the unanimous number 1- just as much as jordan.

Ruth played in a time where the sport was far less organized, with less access to talent around the nation, and NO BLACKS. all those homeruns against the part time Roof Shingler, and strikeouts against Plumbers and Stone Mason arent worth as much as Mays or even Griffeys

IKnowHoops
08-23-2013, 04:20 PM
I highly doubt it and just a few days ago, you could clearly see why.

He might be the most drugged athlete on the planet right now. The way he just broke those records... it's impossible in human nature.

Especially over 200 metres. It took how long.... 20+ years or so for Johnson to get below the 19.72 seconds mark, when he run 19.66. Then he broke it again and set it out of the sudden to the mark of 19.32 seconds. This was already a huge step in human evolution, a quantum, if you think about it. Either he was drugged, a once in a history, not lifetime, runner or whatever... but this wasn't for real. Almost same you could say for the 100 metres world record that he's holding. Just look all the runners before him, at the history of the record
and tell me that's possible just by being "gifted" with talent and by hard work.

Its definitely possible because he's not just gifted athletically, hes gifted with size too. The reason he beating everyone isn't because his legs are moving faster, its because they are moving the same but hes 6'5 and everyone else is 5'8". He's just the Lebron/Shaq of track. He's ahead of his time. 50 years from now when everyone who lines up at the 100 are 6'7" and the record is 8.9 youll see that it was all just progression.

3RDASYSTEM
08-23-2013, 04:24 PM
I always hear discussions of "who is/was the greatest in their sport". All are debatable. MJ is prolly the only true unanimous No 1 at his sport, or at least 99% No 1. Who else besides MJ is the true No. 1 in their sport? Rest of the other sports all have debatable true No. 1 greatest player.

Basketball: 1. MJ
Baseball: 1. Babe Ruth, Hank Aaron, Griffey Jr, Dimaggio
Football: 1. Rice, Montana
Soccer: 1. Pele, Messi
Golf: 1. Nicklaus, Tiger
Hockey: 1. Gretzkey, (don't know much about hockey to know if he is unanimous.)
Boxing: 1. Ali, Tyson (take out the popularity of Ali)
Skateboard: 1. THawk, (dont know much about this either)

I feel all sports have either No 1 and 1A greatest players besides Basketball. What is your opinion?

a lot of nba players behind the scenes will pick WILT or ALCINDOR over JORDAN allday everyday

and others may go with BIG O or DR J or something of that nature

its only because of 'be like mike' that he is no 1, he is the global brand of ball, the father of that new dollar back then because MAGIC and BIRD saved the nba in 80's but WILT saved it way before when he dropped 50ppg

JORDAN is not the undisputed no 1, its very debatable since they bring in the stupid ring talk and he doesn't have the most of nothing but the 6 6 6 talk, 6 titles in 6 attempts with 6 finals awards

so I guess he only had a 6 year career? or it that out of 15yrs? what happen the other 9 years?

its debatable in all sports when speaking on the best of the actual best

this is the thing I don't like about rings, for instance BARRY has no rings but WALTER has a ring

i'd take WALTER over EMMITT who has 3 rings and BARRY also

BARRY didn't have to break all time rushing record to be a top 3 back all time or top 5-10, he was there just based on what he showcased on the grid iron, I rank all players the same way from each sport

Popularity of ALI? are you kidding me he was a heavyweight who could move like he was a lightweight, his hand speed was unreal and he had heavyweight power, why you think he said 'float like a butterfly and sting like a bee'

ALI was popular because he was the rare combo of talking that talk and backing it up, not to mention his unreal foot and hand speed as a heavyweight and he was black America, refused to go to Vietnam war and got sent to prison for it, the 'prime' years of his boxing career

in NFL some say R.WHITE or L.TAYLOR or BROWN and others besides RICE and MONTANA

MLB is right on with a few others like BONDS and PUJOLS and GIBSON and MANTLE/MARIS and even at a time AROD and now MIGGY

GOLF was PALMER and TREVINO and couple others but its pretty clear frontrunners are NICK and TIGER and whoever player they surpassed to take over that record

you got me at skateboard and soccer, you are pretty much right on because I don't follow those that well





all sports have 1 and 1a

IKnowHoops
08-23-2013, 04:26 PM
And this is to all that would point to the advanced stat metrics of Bonds and ignore the HR and RBI production tidal wave that Griffey had over Bonds through the non juice years. David Robinson's regular season advanced stats destroy Hakeems stats even worse, yet all on in favor of Hakeem as the better center. David actually has better production and better advanced stats in there prime years yet people still go with Hakeem. How are steals, walks going to matter and HR and RBI's be insignificant?

JoeBlessU
08-23-2013, 04:41 PM
[QUOTE=JoeBlessU;26938320]

No, more than enough people were bashing your head in so I just didn't want to beat a dead horse. You should be thanking me, not asking for more.

Im in a debate where maybe less than half the stats are on my side so I'm having more fun with it. Unlike my debate with you where everything land slided in Gretsky's favor accept for that one stat that one year you pointed out that supposedly gave it to Ore.

I thought you had already tucked tail an run. You still want more?

Lol you dont even know how to spell Orr's name genius, how can anything you say in a hockey argument be taken seriously?..Do you even read other posts? Or are you just so enamored with your own that you skip over the rest?... Ive had plenty of support on my Orr argument and I posted a lot more than 1 season worth of stats to back it up. You're just stuck on "More assists than anyone has points".. Which is a cool stat, I agree. But let me fill you in on how sports work, there is an offensive side AND a defensive side to it, I know its tough for you to comprehend that so Ill say it in a different way..Hockey is a 2 way sport, one is offense, one is defense. Get it???Just because your the greatest scorer, doesnt make you the greatest player. Overall, Bobby ORR is the greatest, he was also a defenseman which took away some of his scoring numbers. Gretzkys stats were inflated because he had 2 other HOF'ers on his line. He never won a cup without having messier and Kuri next to him, whats up with that?... Their overall +/- ratio isnt even close. So.. if you wanna keep pretending like you know what ur talking about, please, proceed, I find it humerous.

You might wanna stick to hoops tho, your hockey knowledge is less than average

Heatcheck
08-23-2013, 04:43 PM
a lot of nba players behind the scenes will pick WILT or ALCINDOR over JORDAN allday everyday

and others may go with BIG O or DR J or something of that nature

its only because of 'be like mike' that he is no 1, he is the global brand of ball, the father of that new dollar back then because MAGIC and BIRD saved the nba in 80's but WILT saved it way before when he dropped 50ppg

JORDAN is not the undisputed no 1, its very debatable since they bring in the stupid ring talk and he doesn't have the most of nothing but the 6 6 6 talk, 6 titles in 6 attempts with 6 finals awards

so I guess he only had a 6 year career? or it that out of 15yrs? what happen the other 9 years?

its debatable in all sports when speaking on the best of the actual best

this is the thing I don't like about rings, for instance BARRY has no rings but WALTER has a ring

i'd take WALTER over EMMITT who has 3 rings and BARRY also

BARRY didn't have to break all time rushing record to be a top 3 back all time or top 5-10, he was there just based on what he showcased on the grid iron, I rank all players the same way from each sport

Popularity of ALI? are you kidding me he was a heavyweight who could move like he was a lightweight, his hand speed was unreal and he had heavyweight power, why you think he said 'float like a butterfly and sting like a bee'

ALI was popular because he was the rare combo of talking that talk and backing it up, not to mention his unreal foot and hand speed as a heavyweight and he was black America, refused to go to Vietnam war and got sent to prison for it, the 'prime' years of his boxing career

in NFL some say R.WHITE or L.TAYLOR or BROWN and others besides RICE and MONTANA

MLB is right on with a few others like BONDS and PUJOLS and GIBSON and MANTLE/MARIS and even at a time AROD and now MIGGY

GOLF was PALMER and TREVINO and couple others but its pretty clear frontrunners are NICK and TIGER and whoever player they surpassed to take over that record

you got me at skateboard and soccer, you are pretty much right on because I don't follow those that well





all sports have 1 and 1a

and most nba players (and every sport) are ****ing morons. MJ is MJ because he put up absurd numbers, won and absurd amount of team and indivudual accolades, and could do it all. dont try to make it seem like Jordan is overrated because he was marketable. people bring up 6 titles because there arent too many stars who have taken their teams to 6 titles in a decade, its pretty ****ing amazing considering he probably wouldve won more if not for retirement. more impressive than all those celtic rings in the 60s.

Heatcheck
08-23-2013, 04:51 PM
Noone is the best by far. Even Jordan gets his challenges from Wilt, KAJ, and already Lebron. But Usain is clearly the best now because he currently holds all the records. If he was winning the same as he is now, but Carl Lewis still held all the records, then Carl would still be the GOAT. But the great thing about track is we no who is the absolute best/fastest because there exact time is displayed. If all the greats lined up, Usain would win both the 100 and 200 for sure without a doubt. So because of this Usain is the greatest. Yes longevity does also matter, and he does have the longevity to back it up now too.


Theyre both on roids. humans dont Jog 9.7 in the 100, it doesnt happen i dont give a damn how long your stride is. itll come out, just like lance, just like powell, just like gatling, just like gay, and Lewis, Michael Johnson, Maurice Greene, Marion Jones and Flo Jo before them.

abe_froman
08-23-2013, 04:58 PM
And this is to all that would point to the advanced stat metrics of Bonds and ignore the HR and RBI production tidal wave that Griffey had over Bonds through the non juice years. David Robinson's regular season advanced stats destroy Hakeems stats even worse, yet all on in favor of Hakeem as the better center. David actually has better production and better advanced stats in there prime years yet people still go with Hakeem. How are steals, walks going to matter and HR and RBI's be insignificant?
winning and defense.defensiveis alot more up to the "eye test" in basketball as play is more fluid and confined than other sports so metrics are harder to gauge/quantify;as it is with impact/winning.a star player in basketball has much more impact of team success/failure than baseball,or any other sport.thus making it less of a pure numbers game than those other team sports(like baseball)...this not to say they have no value at all,just that comparing the two are like comparing apples and,forget oranges,more like apples and a BLT

JoeBlessU
08-23-2013, 05:04 PM
Want more?...

Gretzkys Career +/- was 518 in 20 seasons.
Bobby Orr +/-597 in only 10 seasons.

If wayne was the greatest ever, why did he have 6+ seasons of a negative +/-.. Meaning, in about 1/3rd of the years he played, he was outscored by opposing teams. Explain that one for me?

OceanSpray
08-23-2013, 06:15 PM
How do you know Griffey didn't use PED's?

What? Because it's a proven fact Bonds uses enhancements while nothing has been proven with Ken.. You can't seriously be asking this. I also said Griffey isn't top 5 so I have no idea what this is even about.

OceanSpray
08-23-2013, 06:17 PM
3 MVPs, 5+ Gold Gloves as one of the best outfielders in the game, 30-50 Stolen Bases a year, top 3 in WAR virtually the whole decade, led the decade in OPS, averaged ~30 HR a year... all this as the skinny Bonds before the age of 29. But yeah, "not worth anything". Your BBIQ sucks.

Lmao, I don't care what he did before. For all we know, he could've been juicing long before he was caught. Anyways, Bonds is a glorified cheater. He's not the best and shouldn't even be mentioned. He's not in the baseball HOF because no one respects a cheater like him and McGuire.

IKnowHoops
08-23-2013, 06:22 PM
Lol you dont even know how to spell Orr's name genius, how can anything you say in a hockey argument be taken seriously?..Do you even read other posts? Or are you just so enamored with your own that you skip over the rest?... Ive had plenty of support on my Orr argument and I posted a lot more than 1 season worth of stats to back it up. You're just stuck on "More assists than anyone has points".. Which is a cool stat, I agree. But let me fill you in on how sports work, there is an offensive side AND a defensive side to it, I know its tough for you to comprehend that so Ill say it in a different way..Hockey is a 2 way sport, one is offense, one is defense. Get it???Just because your the greatest scorer, doesnt make you the greatest player. Overall, Bobby ORR is the greatest, he was also a defenseman which took away some of his scoring numbers. Gretzkys stats were inflated because he had 2 other HOF'ers on his line. He never won a cup without having messier and Kuri next to him, whats up with that?... Their overall +/- ratio isnt even close. So.. if you wanna keep pretending like you know what ur talking about, please, proceed, I find it humerous.

You might wanna stick to hoops tho, your hockey knowledge is less than average

This coming from the guy who called the greatest asst man in the game " a good scorer and thats about it". You are and were a complete joke after that. You can't know anything about hockey saying something like that. And using forum posts as your main source was disgraceful.

koberulesall
08-23-2013, 06:24 PM
I don't think he is number one I pick magic as the greatest ever if he didn't have to retire when he was 32 he would have even more rings than Jordan or Kobe there is 6 billion people on the planet everyone has a different opinion and mind, American idol has the highest ratings in the united states on television that doesn't make it the greatest show ever its the stupidest thing that has ever happened to television, that just goes to show how stupid ppl are and what they assume what is the greatest cause that's what they were told if I was starting a nba franchise I would pick magic, the dream, kareem, shaq over Jordan...Jordan was great but also had good players around him basketball is a team game its an art not one artist is better than the other they are just different....red hot chili peppers/nirvana both art is great in different ways not one is better than the other....OG Kush/Jack herrer both herbs are fantastic but ones sativia ones indica not one is better than the other but you need both to level out....so anyway if I HAD to pick who is the best I wouldn't pick Jordan I pick magic.....