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View Full Version : Tracy McGrady - Not Even Close Kobe was toughest to guard



Davidgta1
08-22-2013, 10:01 AM
one NBA star is willing to say it — Kobe Bryant is a much tougher opponent than his airness, Michael Jordan was … at least according to Tracy McGrady. (Pause for lightning bolts) McGrady was responding to Kobe’s recent comment that T-Mac was the hardest player he ever had to guard — so, we expected him to throw a little praise back at Kobe.

But watch his comments at LAX — McGrady wasn’t just being nice … and actually went out of his way to say it’s “not even close” who his toughest assignment was on the court.

Remember, McGrady checked Jordan during MJ’s final title run in Chicago … when he was still making players look foolish.

So, Kobe over MJ? Tracy said it … not us.

http://www.wggb.com/2013/08/22/ex-nba-star-tracy-mcgrady-sorry-michael-jordan-kobe-bryant-was-wayyy-harder-to-guard-2/

asandhu23
08-22-2013, 10:03 AM
in before the catfight. :catfight:

sunsfan88
08-22-2013, 10:26 AM
Lol the title could be better.

And T-Mac never guarded MJ in his prime or LeBron so of course for him, out of the players he's ever been asked to guard Kobe was the toughest one.

One should also remember that McGrady wasn't really a good defender by any means.

Plus it could just be his way of saying thank you to Kobe for Kobe saying that T-Mac was the hardest to guard for him.

ManRam
08-22-2013, 11:05 AM
Kiirrrbbyy Briiaannn!!!

In T-Mac's prime there wasn't a ton of competition at the 2/3. Wade? Ray Ray? That's about it. What would the other answer be besides Kobe?

He did catch Jordan at the end of his career. Jordan was such the lesser player at that time that T-Mac actually outplayed MJ in their head-to-head matchups.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jordami01&p2=mcgratr01


And once again, if you think Kobe is better than Jordan you're delusional.

DaLakerz Rulz
08-22-2013, 11:22 AM
Kobe > Jordan, I knew it was true finally some proof!!!

DetroitBadBoy
08-22-2013, 11:39 AM
Lol the title could be better.

And T-Mac never guarded MJ in his prime or LeBron so of course for him, out of the players he's ever been asked to guard Kobe was the toughest one.

One should also remember that McGrady wasn't really a good defender by any means.

Plus it could just be his way of saying thank you to Kobe for Kobe saying that T-Mac was the hardest to guard for him.

This hits the nail on the head. Just a little man crush going back and forth between the 2. Lakers fans constantly finding the need to talk up Kobe on this forum.

LAKERMANIA
08-22-2013, 11:45 AM
No surprise, Kobe's an amazing scorer.

See guys, that wasn't so hard..

Minimal
08-22-2013, 11:46 AM
Kobe is GOAT

Chronz
08-22-2013, 11:53 AM
Lmfao, he explicitly mentions he never really faced mj.
And the bigger story is that kobe said tmac.was the toughest.

Stop unless u think both of them think so lil of mj, u need to fix the title

Chronz
08-22-2013, 11:59 AM
No surprise, Kobe's an amazing scorer.

See guys, that wasn't so hard..
No surprise the op doesn't understand context

Chronz
08-22-2013, 12:00 PM
Lol the title could be better.

And T-Mac never guarded MJ in his prime or LeBron so of course for him, out of the players he's ever been asked to guard Kobe was the toughest one.

One should also remember that McGrady wasn't really a good defender by any means.

Plus it could just be his way of saying thank you to Kobe for Kobe saying that T-Mac was the hardest to guard for him.
Tmac was a great defender at one point

SteveZissou
08-22-2013, 12:05 PM
Does anyone else always think Colby when talkin Kobe. And than thinking TheHoopsProphet. Miss reading that guys stuff.

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-22-2013, 12:19 PM
Kiirrrbbyy Briiaannn!!!

In T-Mac's prime there wasn't a ton of competition at the 2/3. Wade? Ray Ray? That's about it. What would the other answer be besides Kobe?

He did catch Jordan at the end of his career. Jordan was such the lesser player at that time that T-Mac actually outplayed MJ in their head-to-head matchups.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jordami01&p2=mcgratr01


And once again, if you think Kobe is better than Jordan you're delusional.

Offensively Kobe is just as good, but who in their right mind would say Kobe is better than Jordan :shrug:

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-22-2013, 12:20 PM
Tmac was a great defender at one point

*above average.

LAKERMANIA
08-22-2013, 12:21 PM
No surprise the op doesn't understand context

:pity:

LongWayFromHome
08-22-2013, 12:22 PM
Wouldn't people who were good during both players primes be better to ask?:

Steve Smith
Allan Houston
Eddie Jones
Jerry Stackhouse
Latrell Sprewell
Reggie Miller
Allen Iverson

Eddie Jones would probably be the best to answer this question as he was a top flight defender during both players primes (Jordan's late prime and Kobe's peak)

LAKERMANIA
08-22-2013, 12:28 PM
Tmac was a great defender at one point

Stop it dude, just stop

pacofunk64
08-22-2013, 12:33 PM
1) This AFTER Kobe said TMac was the toughest to defend 2) He never faced the GOAT in his prime prime.

RLundi
08-22-2013, 02:02 PM
SO surprised that a Laker fan is the OP :pity:

RLundi
08-22-2013, 02:03 PM
Offensively Kobe is just as good, but who in their right mind would say Kobe is better than Jordan :shrug:

:laugh2:

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-22-2013, 02:12 PM
:laugh2:

He is. Kobe just has a bad habit of taking a few bad shots a game, bail out shots, 40ft threes etc. Kobe has had the greatest offensive game in the history of basketball. He also scored 63 in three quarters before, outscoring the whole opposing team. Kobe is every bit as good as Jordan when it comes to scoring. His FG percentage takes a hit for the reasons I mentioned. Also according to everyone on here, the defenses are "much" better than they were in Jordans day.

Bruno
08-22-2013, 02:16 PM
mcgrady clearly says that he never guarded Jordan in Jordans prime. Kobe was the most difficult wing to guard from his own pre-injury era (1999-2007), something all of us already knew.

Mr_Jones
08-22-2013, 02:16 PM
This thread really annoys me. I'm a Lakers fan, but when you do this crap, I can't tell if you're baiting or just stupid. Why not just go about this thread in a way that's not agitating to other fans??

Stop being biased in how you post. It's ridiculous. You complain about other fans being biased, yet you're doing it. This should go for fans of all teams. It's so stupid.

MELO 15
08-22-2013, 02:23 PM
But when Kobe was asked who is toughest to guard today, Lebron, Durant, or Melo who do you think he picked?....... And it's not a trick question niether

b_russ
08-22-2013, 02:39 PM
/Thread

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nba-ball-dont-lie/tmz-reports-incorrectly-tracy-mcgrady-thinks-kobe-bryant-155408617.html

Tony_Starks
08-22-2013, 02:40 PM
TMac used to really go at Kobe. I never saw him go that hard against anyone else. Even in allstar games.

You could tell there was always mutual respect though. It wasn't like Kobe vs Ray where there was a genuine dislike....

b_russ
08-22-2013, 02:40 PM
TMac's Twitter: TMZ is making their own headline. I didn't face MJ in his prime to include him. #legends

beasted86
08-22-2013, 02:45 PM
Offensively Kobe is just as good, but who in their right mind would say Kobe is better than Jordan :shrug:

Who in their right mind would say Kobe is as good as Jordan offensively? :shrug:

IKnowHoops
08-22-2013, 02:55 PM
Offensively Kobe is just as good, but who in their right mind would say Kobe is better than Jordan :shrug:

No he isn't. Check the stats. Advanced or regular. Check the FG% on any level.

sep11ie
08-22-2013, 02:57 PM
Does anyone else always think Colby when talkin Kobe. And than thinking TheHoopsProphet. Miss reading that guys stuff.

You just called yourself out as a dupe. Your join date is April 2013 and HoopsProphet hasn't been around in like 3 years...

IKnowHoops
08-22-2013, 03:00 PM
He is. Kobe just has a bad habit of taking a few bad shots a game, bail out shots, 40ft threes etc. Kobe has had the greatest offensive game in the history of basketball. He also scored 63 in three quarters before, outscoring the whole opposing team. Kobe is every bit as good as Jordan when it comes to scoring. His FG percentage takes a hit for the reasons I mentioned. Also according to everyone on here, the defenses are "much" better than they were in Jordans day.

Jordan was every bit the volume shooter as Kobe. He was just more disciplined when and where he took the shots. Specifically, Kobe did not have the hang time, and body control of Mike to finish around the rim after contact or during contact. He was not as good as Mike at that scoring aspect for sure. His jump shot was also not as consistently on point as Mike's either. His ball handling was better than Mike's thats it. Nothing else was on par or better than what Mike was doing.

Tony_Starks
08-22-2013, 03:01 PM
No he isn't. Check the stats. Advanced or regular. Check the FG% on any level.

You must've missed where he explained that Kobe's numbers take a hit because of his shot selection. But watching them play Kobe had deeper range and was more unstoppable when he got going.

I never saw MJ drop 81, despite taking more than enough shots to do so....

jayjay33
08-22-2013, 03:03 PM
Anyone who finds this hard to believe doesn't understand basketball. It's all about your help defense with those guys. As a single defender you have no chance at all with either one.


I'm mean really. How in the blue hell could guarding Kobe be any easier than guarding MJ. Either way your done. Once you reach their level individual defenders don't matter. Team defense is the only way to even slow them down. And it's not just them. Melo, shaq, lebron,....are not any easier for and individual defender to guard. Than Kobe or MJ. What separates these guys is not how they handle individual defender. It's how they handle help/team defense thats the thing.

IKnowHoops
08-22-2013, 03:04 PM
He is. Kobe just has a bad habit of taking a few bad shots a game, bail out shots, 40ft threes etc. Kobe has had the greatest offensive game in the history of basketball. He also scored 63 in three quarters before, outscoring the whole opposing team. Kobe is every bit as good as Jordan when it comes to scoring. His FG percentage takes a hit for the reasons I mentioned. Also according to everyone on here, the defenses are "much" better than they were in Jordans day.

Then there is Jordan's 10 scoring titles to Kobe's 1 or 2. Please, for Kobe to be the biggest gun Ive ever seen and still have half the scoring titles of Iverson speaks volumes about how overrated Kobe's scoring is. Looking like mike and being mike are two different things man. Kobes game was much prettier than efficient or effective.

IKnowHoops
08-22-2013, 03:06 PM
You must've missed where he explained that Kobe's numbers take a hit because of his shot selection. But watching them play Kobe had deeper range and was more unstoppable when he got going.

I never saw MJ drop 81, despite taking more than enough shots to do so....

I never saw Kobe win 10 scoring titles, despite taking more than enough shots to do so. And I guess David Robinson is a better scorer than Jordan too because he scored 71 pts and Jordan never did that either. Any good scorer can have a great game or two. But only the best scorer wins 10 scoring titles.

For a while Jamaal Lewis held the single game rushing record. Very Kobeesque.

OceanSpray
08-22-2013, 03:13 PM
I think some people are overrating Jordan. In terms of offensive ability, Jordan wasn't that much better than Kobe. Overall player and ability, obviously Jordan is a better version of Kobe. Anyways, I don't know why this T-Mac fool is still on the news. He's a glorified LeBron hater.

beasted86
08-22-2013, 03:13 PM
Does anyone else always think Colby when talkin Kobe. And than thinking TheHoopsProphet. Miss reading that guys stuff.


You just called yourself out as a dupe. Your join date is April 2013 and HoopsProphet hasn't been around in like 3 years...

:referee:

Reported!!!!!!!!

Tony_Starks
08-22-2013, 03:19 PM
[/B]
I never saw Kobe win 10 scoring titles, despite taking more than enough shots to do so. And I guess David Robinson is a better scorer than Jordan too because he scored 71 pts and Jordan never did that either. Any good scorer can have a great game or two. But only the best scorer wins 10 scoring titles.

For a while Jamaal Lewis held the single game rushing record. Very Kobeesque.

Robinson was going out to the win the scoring title and his team fed him the ball from start to finish until he got it. Kobe's team was screwing up and he went insane in the second half to win the game. BIG difference. And LOL at Kobe having a great game or two, the man averaged 40 for a month and dropped like 50 and 65 back to back.

As far as scoring titles I'm pretty sure most reasonable people can agree that if MJ played with one of the most dominant centers ever and was the second option he wouldn't have as many....

beasted86
08-22-2013, 03:20 PM
I think some people are overrating Jordan. In terms of offensive ability, Jordan wasn't that much better than Kobe. Overall player and ability, obviously Jordan is a better version of Kobe. Anyways, I don't know why this T-Mac fool is still on the news. He's a glorified LeBron hater.

I don't understand the term "offensive ability"... that could have an obscure meaning.

I could say that JR Smith has similar offensive ability to Kobe... by my own definition that could mean "tools", IE: shooting range, quickness, athleticism, size, strength, scoring mentailty... But as far as substituting terms like efficiency, effectiveness.... as in things that require facts to measure.... he's not in the same bracket, don't shoot at the same basket, ain't in the same league.....

OceanSpray
08-22-2013, 03:23 PM
[/B]
I never saw Kobe win 10 scoring titles, despite taking more than enough shots to do so. And I guess David Robinson is a better scorer than Jordan too because he scored 71 pts and Jordan never did that either. Any good scorer can have a great game or two. But only the best scorer wins 10 scoring titles.

For a while Jamaal Lewis held the single game rushing record. Very Kobeesque.

They played at a quicker pace during that era. There's a reason why they had a much higher rebound/assist/point averages.

OceanSpray
08-22-2013, 03:25 PM
I don't understand the term "offensive ability"... that could have an obscure meaning.

I could say that JR Smith has similar offensive ability to Kobe... by my own definition that could mean "tools", IE: shooting range, quickness, athleticism, size, strength, scoring mentailty... But as far as substituting terms like efficiency, effectiveness.... as in things that require facts to measure.... he's not in the same bracket, don't shoot at the same basket, ain't in the same league.....

Offensive ability as in Kobe and Jordan play very much alike and there only difference would be that Jordan is a better rebounder, defender, and playmaker. Asides from those three things, their game is very much alike in scoring.

hidalgo
08-22-2013, 03:43 PM
Robinson was going out to the win the scoring title and his team fed him the ball from start to finish until he got it. Kobe's team was screwing up and he went insane in the second half to win the game. BIG difference. And LOL at Kobe having a great game or two, the man averaged 40 for a month and dropped like 50 and 65 back to back.

As far as scoring titles I'm pretty sure most reasonable people can agree that if MJ played with one of the most dominant centers ever and was the second option he wouldn't have as many....he wouldn't be the 2nd option to Shaq, that's ridiculous. Shaq might have been better than Kobe, but Shaq was never considered better than MJ. it would have actually made MJ's scoring titles easier to have Shaq take some pressure off him & get him open far more(his FG% would be even higher too)

Tony_Starks
08-22-2013, 03:52 PM
he wouldn't be the 2nd option to Shaq, that's ridiculous. Shaq might have been better than Kobe, but Shaq was never considered better than MJ. it would have actually made MJ's scoring titles easier to have Shaq take some pressure off him & get him open far more(his FG% would be even higher too)

Man if you think prime Shaq wouldn't have been number 1 option you really don't know your basketball. That's just basketball 101 you go with a unstoppable center over a unstoppable guard.

It's called playing inside out. And I don't know if you know you're history but prime Shaq was NOT ok with being a "sidekick." He was very vocal about being the man and demanding the ball, thus his issues w/ Kobe...

OceanSpray
08-22-2013, 03:55 PM
he wouldn't be the 2nd option to Shaq, that's ridiculous. Shaq might have been better than Kobe, but Shaq was never considered better than MJ. it would have actually made MJ's scoring titles easier to have Shaq take some pressure off him & get him open far more(his FG% would be even higher too)

Guards have to work harder to score. Shaq would just manhandle anyone in his way. I would rather build around Shaq than MJ but MJ was a better player. Reason? No one could stop Shaq no matter what. You can work MJ around but there was absolutely no answer for Shaq.

Tony_Starks
08-22-2013, 03:57 PM
Guards have to work harder to score. Shaq would just manhandle anyone in his way. I would rather build around Shaq than MJ but MJ was a better player. Reason? No one could stop Shaq no matter what. You can work MJ around but there was absolutely no answer for Shaq.

Exactly. Which is why Phil blatantly said it was Shaqs team when he got to LA...

ManRam
08-22-2013, 03:58 PM
No surprise, Kobe's an amazing scorer.

See guys, that wasn't so hard..

No surprise, whenever there's a chance to boast, boasting will be done!

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-22-2013, 04:10 PM
No he isn't. Check the stats. Advanced or regular. Check the FG% on any level.


Jordan was every bit the volume shooter as Kobe. He was just more disciplined when and where he took the shots. Specifically, Kobe did not have the hang time, and body control of Mike to finish around the rim after contact or during contact. He was not as good as Mike at that scoring aspect for sure. His jump shot was also not as consistently on point as Mike's either. His ball handling was better than Mike's thats it. Nothing else was on par or better than what Mike was doing.


Then there is Jordan's 10 scoring titles to Kobe's 1 or 2. Please, for Kobe to be the biggest gun Ive ever seen and still have half the scoring titles of Iverson speaks volumes about how overrated Kobe's scoring is. Looking like mike and being mike are two different things man. Kobes game was much prettier than efficient or effective.

I already explained why Kobes FG percentage takes a hit. Did you know that Kobe has almost as many three pointers made as Jordan attempted? If you take the three away, Kobe has a 2 point FG percentage of 48.5 while Jordan is 51. Jordan is not that more of a efficient scorer than Kobe. Jordan was just a smarter shooter, much like Lebron. Kobe loves taking bail out, and trick shots. Not to mention that I've seen a thousand most people on here agree that defenses are better today than in Jordans era. Kobe has had the best offensive game in basketball history, and a few others that rank up there with it. Kobe had to battle it out with offensive juggernauts for scoring titles unlike Jordan. Let's not forget that Jordan has a lot more points at the rim because of how strong he was, Kobe is a lot more creative at getting the ball into the rim because he's not the physical specimen that Jordan and Lebron are.

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-22-2013, 04:11 PM
I think some people are overrating Jordan. In terms of offensive ability, Jordan wasn't that much better than Kobe. Overall player and ability, obviously Jordan is a better version of Kobe. Anyways, I don't know why this T-Mac fool is still on the news. He's a glorified LeBron hater.

^

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-22-2013, 04:13 PM
he wouldn't be the 2nd option to Shaq, that's ridiculous. Shaq might have been better than Kobe, but Shaq was never considered better than MJ. it would have actually made MJ's scoring titles easier to have Shaq take some pressure off him & get him open far more(his FG% would be even higher too)

Prime Jordan would not overshadow a prime Shaq, Shaq was to much for anyone during his prime.

hidalgo
08-22-2013, 04:20 PM
Prime Jordan would not overshadow a prime Shaq, Shaq was to much for anyone during his prime.Jordan was too much for anyone obviously since he's considered the best ever, I think he would clearly overshadow Shaq, no question about it. Michael would be the leader of the team, & lead them in ppg with Shaq(& win the title every year with Shaq as his #2 guy)

does Shaq hold the all time ppg in the regular season & playoffs? nope, that's His Airness. just because Kobe couldn't overshadow him doesn't mean Michael wouldn't. Kobe's not Mike

no amount of arguing can convince me that the GOAT would be Shaq's sidekick like Kobe was. not a chance. MJ would avg 30-33 about every year, shaq about 27-28. championships would be easy for them

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-22-2013, 04:26 PM
Jordan was too much for anyone obviously since he's considered the best ever, I think he would clearly overshadow Shaq, no question about it

No way Dude, Mj might be the greatest, but if you paired him with a prime Shaq, Shaq would most likely still be the number one option. If you're talking about primes that is.

Snapshot
08-22-2013, 05:02 PM
lol @ Shaq being the #1 opt playing alongside MJ...he had a hard time being the #1 while playing with Penny (reason he left ORL) and being the #1 opt with Kobe, 2 players that MJ is better than.

No one was able to stop Shaq in his pirime? What about the Pacers, Bulls, Rockets, Spurs, and Pistons, all teams that were able to stop him in his "prime".

There's a reason MJ has more scoring titles than Kobe and Shaq combined...he was unstoppable and no one in the history of the game would be the #1 opt over him, well unless ur talkin Wilt back in the 60's, but it ends there, period.

bearadonisdna
08-22-2013, 05:17 PM
Kiirrrbbyy Briiaannn!!!

In T-Mac's prime there wasn't a ton of competition at the 2/3. Wade? Ray Ray? That's about it. What would the other answer be besides Kobe?

He did catch Jordan at the end of his career. Jordan was such the lesser player at that time that T-Mac actually outplayed MJ in their head-to-head matchups.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jordami01&p2=mcgratr01


And once again, if you think Kobe is better than Jordan you're delusional.

So, according to the link tmac only played mj 3 times while he was a bull. All losses for toronto and mj had 33 in one of them. And wasnt that during the VC era where VC was the SG? So whatever its cool that he gives kobe props.

fresh prince
08-22-2013, 05:31 PM
Its called evolution. Kobe was Better than Jordan. Lebron is better than Kobe and someone else will be better than Lebron and so goes life.

Jordan's stats and accomplishments will likely never be surpassed but as the game evolves players get better. Its the way of the world.

We went from:

1. Horse AND Carriage to Hybrids
2. Transister Radios to Plasmas
3. Atari to PS3
4. Bonanza to Walking Dead
5. Taco Bell to Chipoltle

As times goes on things get better.

RLundi
08-22-2013, 05:42 PM
Its called evolution. Kobe was Better than Jordan. Lebron is better than Kobe and someone else will be better than Lebron and so goes life.

Jordan's stats and accomplishments will likely never be surpassed but as the game evolves players get better. Its the way of the world.

We went from:

1. Horse AND Carriage to Hybrids
2. Transister Radios to Plasmas
3. Atari to PS3
4. Bonanza to Walking Dead
5. Taco Bell to Chipoltle

As times goes on things get better.

Not at all. Most sensible people will not agree with you. And how convenient that you are a Lakers fan.

el hidalgo
08-22-2013, 06:12 PM
anybody claiming that kobe is a better scorer than jordan should be taken out behind the shed and shot

Chronz
08-22-2013, 06:23 PM
Tmac was a great defender at one point

Stop it dude, just stop
Stop begging

Chronz
08-22-2013, 06:24 PM
Tmac was a great defender at one point

*above average.
Lemme know when you want that history lesson

Spanklin
08-22-2013, 06:38 PM
People don't know basketball if they're saying Kobe wasn't a better scorer than MJ or at least as good.

Jordan never ever had to face a zone and played with all those whacky illegal defense rules. That's the only reason he has a slightly better shooting % than Kobe. Look at ts% though -- Jordan was about as good a scorer as Carmelo Anthony other than 3 maybe 4 years.

fresh prince
08-22-2013, 06:41 PM
Not at all. Most sensible people will not agree with you. And how convenient that you are a Lakers fan.

That's the beauty of life disagreement and difference. Imagine if everyone thought the same. We would have a boring world.

If you remove sentimental effects from things and compare them based soley on attributes you will get my point. Was Atari cool for its time? Heck Yes! But feature for feature it cant touch the PS3.

Its the same with sports as we evovle players get better bcause the competition gets better. Its the law of nature. Thats not to say Mike Jordan is Atari. Jordan is more like Sega Genesis / N64.

To some those will always be the best. To each his own.

valade16
08-22-2013, 06:53 PM
People don't know basketball if they're saying Kobe wasn't a better scorer than MJ or at least as good.

Jordan never ever had to face a zone and played with all those whacky illegal defense rules. That's the only reason he has a slightly better shooting % than Kobe. Look at ts% though -- Jordan was about as good a scorer as Carmelo Anthony other than 3 maybe 4 years.

Is this serious?

Here are MJ, Kobe, and Melo's TS% #'s:

.614
.606
.605
.603
.592
.582
.580
.579
.576
.570
.568
.567
.563
.563
.564
.562
.561
.560
.559
.557
.552
.552
.551
.550
.549
.548
.548
.548
.546
.545
.544
.533
.533
.532
.527
.526
.525
.509
.493

Red is MJ, Purple is Kobe and Blue is 'Melo. Notice how MJ is head and shoulders above both of them?

Chronz
08-22-2013, 06:57 PM
Its called evolution. Kobe was Better than Jordan. Lebron is better than Kobe and someone else will be better than Lebron and so goes life.

Jordan's stats and accomplishments will likely never be surpassed but as the game evolves players get better. Its the way of the world.

We went from:

1. Horse AND Carriage to Hybrids
2. Transister Radios to Plasmas
3. Atari to PS3
4. Bonanza to Walking Dead
5. Taco Bell to Chipoltle

As times goes on things get better.
Kind of how the Jaguar 64bit was better than the older/smaller snes

Spanklin
08-22-2013, 07:04 PM
Is this serious?

Here are MJ, Kobe, and Melo's TS% #'s:

.614
.606
.605
.603
.592
.582
.580
.579
.576
.570
.568
.567
.563
.563
.564
.562
.561
.560
.559
.557
.552
.552
.551
.550
.549
.548
.548
.548
.546
.545
.544
.533
.533
.532
.527
.526
.525
.509
.493

Red is MJ, Purple is Kobe and Blue is 'Melo. Notice how MJ is head and shoulders above both of them?

You do realize there was only one year Jordan even cracked the top ten right? It's a fair comparison overall and I clearly said he had a few years that were way better than Carmelo. But on average, he was Carmelo and that's no knock at all.

And that's without adjusting one bit for the better defense allowed today that skews Jordan's numbers higher than Carmelo and Kobe.

tredigs
08-22-2013, 07:16 PM
You do realize there was only one year Jordan even cracked the top ten right? It's a fair comparison overall and I clearly said he had a few years that were way better than Carmelo. But on average, he was Carmelo and that's no knock at all.

And that's without adjusting one bit for the better defense allowed today that skews Jordan's numbers higher than Carmelo and Kobe.

You have no clue what you're talking about. A TS% on that volume is incredible, he's one of a very small handful of players to ever lead the league in scoring with a >60% TS. And despite his Washington years taking a major dent to his career TS, he still ranks in the top 75 all time. Melo doesn't crack the top 300 and he's still in his prime. Any better overall team D is offset by the fact that you could handcheck players back then (sucks for someone with a post game like MJ) and you weren't seeing flagrants thrown out for getting smashed in the paint. There's also the fact that Jordan was one of the greatest perimeter defenders ever and used massive energy on that end, whereas Melo (and Kobe for the last half decade) would rather sit most plays out on that end.

But we're talking to a guy who considers 7 full seasons of scoring volume higher than Melo's peak on TS% higher than Melo's peak "a few years".

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-22-2013, 07:27 PM
I already explained why Kobes FG percentage takes a hit. Did you know that Kobe has almost as many three pointers made as Jordan attempted? If you take the three away, Kobe has a 2 point FG percentage of 48.5 while Jordan is 51. Jordan is not that more of a efficient scorer than Kobe. Jordan was just a smarter shooter, much like Lebron. Kobe loves taking bail out, and trick shots. Not to mention that I've seen a thousand most people on here agree that defenses are better today than in Jordans era. Kobe has had the best offensive game in basketball history, and a few others that rank up there with it. Kobe had to battle it out with offensive juggernauts for scoring titles unlike Jordan. Let's not forget that Jordan has a lot more points at the rim because of how strong he was, Kobe is a lot more creative at getting the ball into the rim because he's not the physical specimen that Jordan and Lebron are.

Anyone want to to say anything about this?

Ebbs
08-22-2013, 07:35 PM
So T-mac > Kobe > Jordan? JB was right?

tredigs
08-22-2013, 07:36 PM
Anyone want to to say anything about this?

3's are taken into account with TS%, which Jordan still has Kobe beat on, and MJ did it scoring 30 a game, Kobe averages 25. Double whammy to your point.

And my bad, Carmelo's career regular season TS% gets him in right around #200 - it's his playoff TS% that takes a steaming dump, whereas MJ's didn't fall what so ever. But his volume did increase to an NBA record 33+ ppg. Kobe's TS% also dropped in the playoffs.

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-22-2013, 07:46 PM
3's are taken into account with TS%, which Jordan still has Kobe beat on, and MJ did it scoring 30 a game, Kobe averages 25. Double whammy to your point.

And my bad, Carmelo's career regular season TS% gets him in right around #200 - it's his playoff TS% that takes a steaming dump, whereas MJ's didn't fall what so ever. But his volume did increase to an NBA record 33+ ppg. Kobe's TS% also dropped in the playoffs.

Where in my post was I talking about ts or Melo? Go look at Kobe and Jordans numbers without the three pointer. they are pretty similar. Kobe has some of the best offensive games on record. He just doesn't care much for FG%, that's why he won't hesitate to take a 40 foot bailout three.

hidalgo
08-22-2013, 07:53 PM
Anyone want to to say anything about this?the fact he's dumb enough to take that many 3s, & bail out & trick shots, & fade away bricks against double teams Iverson type garbage, just shows how dumb a player he is compaired to MJ. you're saying that stuff like he can control it(well if he didn't do all that stupid crap he'd be closer in fg%), but it's clear it's part of his mental makeup as a player, & you can't change that overnight, if ever. he's always done that crap, he can't help himself, it's a flaw in his offensive game

like you said, Jordan was a smarter shooter (& that's a natural thing, you don't just change that. if you take a lot of bad shots that's a flaw in your game, period). MJ was better at every major catagory

the other crap I highly disagree with too

tredigs
08-22-2013, 08:02 PM
Where in my post was I talking about ts or Melo? Go look at Kobe and Jordans numbers without the three pointer. they are pretty similar. Kobe has some of the best offensive games on record. He just doesn't care much for FG%, that's why he won't hesitate to take a 40 foot bailout three.

You know who also has some of the best offensive games ever? Jordan, but, in the playoffs: 63 against the legendary late 80's Celtics, 69/18/6 (63%) + 4 stls on a very tough Cavs team, the double nickle, the flu game, etc.

The Melo comment wasn't for you, but the TS% is me trying to explain that you don't have to take 3's out, they're accounted for in TS% and more specifically in eFG% (doesn't do FTs), where MJ has him easily beat... and again, on way higher volume.

smith&wesson
08-22-2013, 08:14 PM
tmac never really played vs mj .. not enough anyways. so I imagine this statement is true because he isnt really including jordon here. he is talking about through out his career, not just a couple games in one season.

hidalgo
08-22-2013, 08:19 PM
tmac never really played vs mj .. not enough anyways. so I imagine this statement is true because he isnt really including jordon here. he is talking about through out his career, not just a couple games in one season.

yea, the only time he played against the true Jordan, was the 1997-98 season, & i'm pretty sure Doug Christie guarded him then. So the KB trolls going all crazy about this don't seem to understand TMac even said he didn't play against prime MJ

MTar786
08-22-2013, 08:20 PM
Kiirrrbbyy Briiaannn!!!

In T-Mac's prime there wasn't a ton of competition at the 2/3. Wade? Ray Ray? That's about it. What would the other answer be besides Kobe?

He did catch Jordan at the end of his career. Jordan was such the lesser player at that time that T-Mac actually outplayed MJ in their head-to-head matchups.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jordami01&p2=mcgratr01


And once again, if you think Kobe is better than Jordan you're delusional.

dude you are crazy.. there wasnt competition at the 2/3 then??? how old are you?
these are just the 2 guards from those days

kobe
tmac
iverson
carter
pierce (switched to sf later in career)
ray allen
steve smith (played 2 and 3)
stackhouse
eddie jones (switched to 3 much later in career)
michael finley
spreewell (switched to 3 later)
houston
reggie
hamilton

Spanklin
08-22-2013, 08:33 PM
You have no clue what you're talking about. A TS% on that volume is incredible, he's one of a very small handful of players to ever lead the league in scoring with a >60% TS.

LOL this is so silly I'm not even bothering to respond to the rest. You ever heard of Kobe's 4 titles? Dwayne Wade? Allen Iverson? Paul Pierce? Jerry Stackhouse? Kevin Garnett? Nearly every scoring leader has been below .600 ts% before Durant & LeBron changed the game.

You're getting bothered over .2 TS% difference and lying to make a point is lame.

smith&wesson
08-22-2013, 08:35 PM
yea, the only time he played against the true Jordan, was the 1997-98 season, & i'm pretty sure Doug Christie guarded him then. So the KB trolls going all crazy about this don't seem to understand TMac even said he didn't play against prime MJ

agreed. Im a kobe fan, but dont think there is any scenerio where you can claim he was better than jordan. thats just silly.

alexander_37
08-22-2013, 08:35 PM
So... close this thread now?

Spanklin
08-22-2013, 08:36 PM
Oh yeah guys I forgot the Kobe Assist. Phil Jackson/Tex Winters got smart and started designing better plays where it didn't matter if Kobe missed or not because the ball would come off the other side and only a Lakers was there to clean up.

Kobe was way better at taking these shots than Jordan was, and much of that is because of rule changes and Phil Jackson's teaching. But yeah, let's get tickytack box score statting that his higher assist meant a lower fg%.

Bostonjorge
08-22-2013, 08:37 PM
Phill Jackson said jordan was a more consistent scorer but when kobe was hot no one was better then him.

Kobe is the greatest offensive player ever. Not one player is as great as him in all areas of the floor. In the post with his back to the basket the best guard ever and foot work. Can take u off the dribble and handle the ball with the best. One of the best jump shooters with deep range. Also only player to match jordans fadeaway.

Jordans game was from the baseline to the free throw line. Had great little jumpers and attacked the rim better then any player ever.

Kashmir13579
08-22-2013, 08:37 PM
Tracy never had to guard himself!

tredigs
08-22-2013, 08:50 PM
LOL this is so silly I'm not even bothering to respond to the rest. You ever heard of Kobe's 4 titles? Dwayne Wade? Allen Iverson? Paul Pierce? Jerry Stackhouse? Kevin Garnett? Nearly every scoring leader has been below .600 ts% before Durant & LeBron changed the game.

You're getting bothered over .2 TS% difference and lying to make a point is lame.

Yeah bud, Lebron, Durant... and Jordan before them (and a couple others before him). What don't you get, what did I "lie" about? Are you drunk? Higher volume scorer on higher %'s, year after year after year. And word, I'm sure you don't want to include the part where I called you out for calling 7 full seasons of leading the league in scoring on 30+ ppg, all at a higher efficiency than him "a few years better than Melo".

hidalgo
08-22-2013, 10:05 PM
Phill Jackson said jordan was a more consistent scorer but when kobe was hot no one was better then him.

Kobe is the greatest offensive player ever. Not one player is as great as him in all areas of the floor. In the post with his back to the basket the best guard ever and foot work. Can take u off the dribble and handle the ball with the best. One of the best jump shooters with deep range. Also only player to match jordans fadeaway.

Jordans game was from the baseline to the free throw line. Had great little jumpers and attacked the rim better then any player ever.this is trash. besides the eye test, & bigger scoring games against the tougher defenses & playoff teams, MJ is the leader in ppg in the playoffs & regular season. how many offensive incoic moments Jordan had in the playoffs & finals, compare that to Kobe basically having basically no finals inconic moments(shoots 41% in the finals, go Iverson!), far less playoff big games. it's not even close. Kobe just takes advantage of crappy defenses & goes all David Thompson/Gerorge Gervin/David Robinson last day of the season push for the scoring title, only difference is he's selfish enough to pull that crap time & time again on trash teams to make himself look better than he is(50 point games). & Jordan still did 50+ far more times, in way way less games, & against better teams. Kobe can score, but not like MJ(hence MJ is the all time leader in points per game, duhhh derrrr jeeeh boss). the only true 30+ ppg player ever (regular season & playoffs combined, only Jordan, all by himself) kobe? haha come on man, forced low% shot jacking. 25 ppg(& it would be lower than that if he played in Jordan's era with handchecking,etc), he's right there with Karl Mailbags 25ppg, but not anywhere near MJ.

you can't have that many flaws like Kobe on offense, then still claim he's the best because he went bananas on bunch of trash defenses in a no handchecking era made for wing players to avg more points. the playoffs & finals are what's really important, but Jordan still outdoes KB in the regular season as well. there's just no argument for KB here, & it's insulting to MJ. ah well, the stats, polls, & video tape speak volumes, & they all say Jordan is the better scorer(& better player obviously)

MTar786
08-22-2013, 11:45 PM
Yeah bud, Lebron, Durant... and Jordan before them (and a couple others before him). What don't you get, what did I "lie" about? Are you drunk? Higher volume scorer on higher %'s, year after year after year. And word, I'm sure you don't want to include the part where I called you out for calling 7 full seasons of leading the league in scoring on 30+ ppg, all at a higher efficiency than him "a few years better than Melo".

jordan was the most efficient scoring player ever. but he never really shot 3's. 3's lower your overall field goal percentage. so you cant blame kobe for having a lower percentage because hes a better 3 point shooter than mj. kobe is a better overall scorer than jordan. jordan has better ppg seasons because kobe was surrounded by better overall scoring players. kobe didnt play with roman and specialist players. kobe had shaq who was pretty much another 30ppg guy. then he had gasol,bynum and odom. the years he didn't. (aside from his first year without shaq) his scoring was more than 30ppg aswell. you have to judge this off skills. kobe has a more rounded offensive game. kobe has more range but jordan was better at penetration. hence jordan is the more efficient of the two and kobe is the overall more rounded offensive threat. know what i mean? i would still take the more efficient player anyway though. can you agree with that atleast? all bias aside, if you have any

MTar786
08-22-2013, 11:46 PM
Phill Jackson said jordan was a more consistent scorer but when kobe was hot no one was better then him.

Kobe is the greatest offensive player ever. Not one player is as great as him in all areas of the floor. In the post with his back to the basket the best guard ever and foot work. Can take u off the dribble and handle the ball with the best. One of the best jump shooters with deep range. Also only player to match jordans fadeaway.

Jordans game was from the baseline to the free throw line. Had great little jumpers and attacked the rim better then any player ever.
i agree, when kobe goes into that unstoppable mode he is the best ever. too bad he hasnt gone in one of those modes in a very long time. the last i can remember was game 5 against boston in 2010. but that was for one quarter AND they lost because kobe was literally the only laker who showed up that night.
back in his younger days kobe would go on those unstoppable rampages maybe a dozen games a season

FOBolous
08-23-2013, 12:08 AM
can everyone in the main NBA forum just agree with the Kobe fan boys that Kobe's the GOAT so they will stop posting?

SteveZissou
08-23-2013, 01:00 AM
You just called yourself out as a dupe. Your join date is April 2013 and HoopsProphet hasn't been around in like 3 years...

Lol I've been reading this site for years. Just made an account to talk Raiders in the Raider forum as of my "join date". If I was that dude HoopsProphet, I wouldn't write some half *** **** that I wrote.

Snapshot
08-23-2013, 01:09 AM
Phill Jackson said jordan was a more consistent scorer but when kobe was hot no one was better then him.

Kobe is the greatest offensive player ever. Not one player is as great as him in all areas of the floor. In the post with his back to the basket the best guard ever and foot work. Can take u off the dribble and handle the ball with the best. One of the best jump shooters with deep range. Also only player to match jordans fadeaway.

Jordans game was from the baseline to the free throw line. Had great little jumpers and attacked the rim better then any player ever.

This is silly logic, and the same reason silly people say that Melo is the best scorer in the league just bcuz "he can score all types of ways".

Peep this analogy..if me and you are bangin the same chick...me im lazy, so I just give her backshots all the time, but im well endowed and my stroke is incredible so she has multiple orgasms everytime out, where u on the other hand put her in all types of crazy positions, ur versatile as ****, flexible and all, but she never has an orgasm.

Who is she gonna tell her friends is the better lay, and when we both call her on the same night to hook up, who do you think she's gonna link up with, and who is she gonna tell she's busy?...hope u got the point.

tredigs
08-23-2013, 01:17 AM
jordan was the most efficient scoring player ever. but he never really shot 3's. 3's lower your overall field goal percentage. so you cant blame kobe for having a lower percentage because hes a better 3 point shooter than mj. kobe is a better overall scorer than jordan. jordan has better ppg seasons because kobe was surrounded by better overall scoring players. kobe didnt play with roman and specialist players. kobe had shaq who was pretty much another 30ppg guy. then he had gasol,bynum and odom. the years he didn't. (aside from his first year without shaq) his scoring was more than 30ppg aswell. you have to judge this off skills. kobe has a more rounded offensive game. kobe has more range but jordan was better at penetration. hence jordan is the more efficient of the two and kobe is the overall more rounded offensive threat. know what i mean? i would still take the more efficient player anyway though. can you agree with that atleast? all bias aside, if you have any

No, I don't. I already addressed Kobe's perceived drop in overall FG% being due to 3pt shooting with the fact that MJ's eFG% was higher. And I do agree that Kobe was a better 3pt shooter - it is literally the only thing he has the edge on MJ on - but Jordan could not be given a 3pt shot. His career 3% is a mediocre 32.7, while Kobe's is a mediocre 33.6. Both are not good at 3's. And in the only 4 seasons Jordan actually took 3+ attempts a game, he averaged out at around 39%. I.e. if he made a point to shoot it, he was going to do it an elite level. It was the theme of his career in all aspects of scoring/playmaking/defense.

I'll put it this way, Jordan was a far more potent threat, and ultimately that is all that matters.

cahawk
08-23-2013, 01:24 AM
No credibility since McGrady is his cousin.

OceanSpray
08-23-2013, 01:27 AM
No credibility since McGrady is his cousin.

That's Vince Carter

SLY WILLIAMS
08-23-2013, 04:27 PM
Kobe and Tmac are pumping each others tires. Kenny Smith said they were both wrong.


NBA alum Kenny Smith thinks Kobe & T-Mac are suffering from a severe case of baller amnesia -- 'cause when it comes to the greatest offensive player of all time, there's only one real answer -- MICHAEL JORDAN.

Kenny knows what he's talking about -- he played against all 3 superstars ... and yesterday at LAX, The Jet told us that Bryant and Tracy McGrady must've been mistaken when they named each other as the toughest guy they ever had to guard.

So, why did Kobe leave MJ off of his infamous list of toughest NBA players to guard last week? Kenny has a theory ...

"Sometimes when you write a list up, like of your favorite foods ... but you just forget that one food? Jordan is that one food."

During the encounter, Kenny states his case for his Airness ... and it's pretty compelling. Check out the clip. http://www.tmz.com/2013/08/23/kenny-smith-kobe-bryant-tracy-mcgrady-michael-jordan-video/

goku
08-23-2013, 04:34 PM
T-mac played defense that's funny

3RDASYSTEM
08-23-2013, 04:46 PM
Phill Jackson said jordan was a more consistent scorer but when kobe was hot no one was better then him.

Kobe is the greatest offensive player ever. Not one player is as great as him in all areas of the floor. In the post with his back to the basket the best guard ever and foot work. Can take u off the dribble and handle the ball with the best. One of the best jump shooters with deep range. Also only player to match jordans fadeaway.

Jordans game was from the baseline to the free throw line. Had great little jumpers and attacked the rim better then any player ever.

the backupguard steals another title

the greatest offensive player ever, amazing grace

Chronz
08-23-2013, 04:48 PM
T-mac played defense that's funny
Goku .... Lol

Chronz
08-23-2013, 04:51 PM
Kobe and Tmac are pumping each others tires. Kenny Smith said they were both wrong.


NBA alum Kenny Smith thinks Kobe & T-Mac are suffering from a severe case of baller amnesia -- 'cause when it comes to the greatest offensive player of all time, there's only one real answer -- MICHAEL JORDAN.

Kenny knows what he's talking about -- he played against all 3 superstars ... and yesterday at LAX, The Jet told us that Bryant and Tracy McGrady must've been mistaken when they named each other as the toughest guy they ever had to guard.

So, why did Kobe leave MJ off of his infamous list of toughest NBA players to guard last week? Kenny has a theory ...

"Sometimes when you write a list up, like of your favorite foods ... but you just forget that one food? Jordan is that one food."

During the encounter, Kenny states his case for his Airness ... and it's pretty compelling. Check out the clip. http://www.tmz.com/2013/08/23/kenny-smith-kobe-bryant-tracy-mcgrady-michael-jordan-video/
Isn't it more logical to state its because they didn't play in mjs era? Unless their experiences as children should outweigh how they played MJ as a grown man

Wrigheyes4MVP
08-23-2013, 04:53 PM
MJ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kobe

Its not even close.

Tony_Starks
08-23-2013, 05:11 PM
Kobe and Tmac are pumping each others tires. Kenny Smith said they were both wrong.

http://www.tmz.com/2013/08/23/kenny-smith-kobe-bryant-tracy-mcgrady-michael-jordan-video/

Tmac stated he didn't defend MJ in his prime so I'm not sure why people continue to be so defensive and bring MJs name up.

He's talking about HIS peers.

KingstonHawke
08-23-2013, 05:26 PM
Wait... let's get a few things straight.

1. TMac did play against Jordan when he was with the Bulls. 3 times in fact... Jordan had 11, 16, and 33 points on 41% (averaged) shooting in those contest.

2. A guy who can attack the basket and shoot from 3 equally is a lot harder to guard than a player who can only attack the basket and shoot mid range jumpers (obviously). And in case you didn't know Jordan was a pretty garbage 3 point shooter for pretty much his whole career. He shot 24% from (the current) 3pt line.

I fully understand why TMac would consider Kobe harder to guard than Jordan.

Furthermore... If I'm Lebron, I wouldn't put Magic on my list either. Lebron is a nightmare match-up for Magic. I think he'd of dominated Magic every time they played if they were both in their primes. Lebron is basically a cyborg version of Magic. And only in the movies does the lesser version win those types of battles.

EastCoastRaptor
08-23-2013, 06:21 PM
He is. Kobe just has a bad habit of taking a few bad shots a game, bail out shots, 40ft threes etc. Kobe has had the greatest offensive game in the history of basketball. He also scored 63 in three quarters before, outscoring the whole opposing team. Kobe is every bit as good as Jordan when it comes to scoring. His FG percentage takes a hit for the reasons I mentioned. Also according to everyone on here, the defenses are "much" better than they were in Jordans day.

This is such a sad excuse it's not even funny. Jordan scored at a higher clip than Kobe and did so a lot more efficiently. The fact Kobe takes those dumb hero shots puts him further behind. Kobe has insane skill, longevity, heart, dedication, etc. but you guys gotta gear down with the man love. He is not on Jordan's offensive level period. He is not far behind though.

I don't even like Jordan. I despised him growing up actually. I watched them both in their peaks and both were amazing to watch. Jordan was just better. The stats agree too. These kinda posts need to stop.

OceanSpray
08-23-2013, 06:22 PM
Wait... let's get a few things straight.

1. TMac did play against Jordan when he was with the Bulls. 3 times in fact... Jordan had 11, 16, and 33 points on 41% (averaged) shooting in those contest.

2. A guy who can attack the basket and shoot from 3 equally is a lot harder to guard than a player who can only attack the basket and shoot mid range jumpers (obviously). And in case you didn't know Jordan was a pretty garbage 3 point shooter for pretty much his whole career. He shot 24% from (the current) 3pt line.

I fully understand why TMac would consider Kobe harder to guard than Jordan.

Furthermore... If I'm Lebron, I wouldn't put Magic on my list either. Lebron is a nightmare match-up for Magic. I think he'd of dominated Magic every time they played if they were both in their primes. Lebron is basically a cyborg version of Magic. And only in the movies does the lesser version win those types of battles.

I agree, but we're talking prime Jordan. I don't think Kobe>Prime Jordan in offense. I think it's close but who knows, those Jordan fanboys praise Jordan like he can do anything 1000x better.

hidalgo
08-23-2013, 06:46 PM
Wait... let's get a few things straight.

1. TMac did play against Jordan when he was with the Bulls. 3 times in fact... Jordan had 11, 16, and 33 points on 41% (averaged) shooting in those contest.

.Doug Christie guarded him that year, not Tmac (that's why Tmac said he never guarded MJ in his prime). Tmac was a SF his first few years, Christie was the SG. plus there's video proof Christie checked him, not Tmac

in fact I don't think he guarded MJ much on the Wizards either, since MJ was a SF then & Tmac was a SG

NJrockPD
08-23-2013, 07:26 PM
one NBA star is willing to say it — Kobe Bryant is a much tougher opponent than his airness, Michael Jordan was … at least according to Tracy McGrady. (Pause for lightning bolts) McGrady was responding to Kobe’s recent comment that T-Mac was the hardest player he ever had to guard — so, we expected him to throw a little praise back at Kobe.

But watch his comments at LAX — McGrady wasn’t just being nice … and actually went out of his way to say it’s “not even close” who his toughest assignment was on the court.

Remember, McGrady checked Jordan during MJ’s final title run in Chicago … when he was still making players look foolish.

So, Kobe over MJ? Tracy said it … not us.

http://www.wggb.com/2013/08/22/ex-nba-star-tracy-mcgrady-sorry-michael-jordan-kobe-bryant-was-wayyy-harder-to-guard-2/

I like how Kenny Smith responds when he heard.

http://www.tmz.com/videos/0_mlz9puft/

Chronz
08-23-2013, 09:06 PM
Wait... let's get a few things straight.

1. TMac did play against Jordan when he was with the Bulls. 3 times in fact... Jordan had 11, 16, and 33 points on 41% (averaged) shooting in those contest.
How many possessions did he actually GUARD MJ? Pretty sure Tmac was checking Pippen in the short time he was on the court with them. Why is Tmac letting it known that he didn't really defend MJ so he dismisses him entirely?


2. A guy who can attack the basket and shoot from 3 equally is a lot harder to guard than a player who can only attack the basket and shoot mid range jumpers (obviously).
LMFAO, nice try but its not alot harder if the guy is an incredible midrange shooter and slasher and the 3pt gunner isn't very accurate from out there.


And in case you didn't know Jordan was a pretty garbage 3 point shooter for pretty much his whole career. He shot 24% from (the current) 3pt line.
Yet despite this was far more productive and efficient in scoring more points than Kobe.


I fully understand why TMac would consider Kobe harder to guard than Jordan.
Tmac doesn't understand why you fail to grasp basketball.


Furthermore... If I'm Lebron, I wouldn't put Magic on my list either. Lebron is a nightmare match-up for Magic. I think he'd of dominated Magic every time they played if they were both in their primes. Lebron is basically a cyborg version of Magic. And only in the movies does the lesser version win those types of battles.

Sounds like you didn't watch Magic and dont understand the differences in their games. Also, that lesser version you speak of is still superior to the players he mentioned. In fact, one of the players Bron mentioned (Julius) was actually older than Magic.

KingstonHawke
08-24-2013, 05:44 AM
How many possessions did he actually GUARD MJ? Pretty sure Tmac was checking Pippen in the short time he was on the court with them. Why is Tmac letting it known that he didn't really defend MJ so he dismisses him entirely?

That's not relevant to the point I was making. I wasn't trying to imply that TMac locked down Jordan. What I was getting at is that he had played against Jordan and Jordan wasn't spectacular in those match-ups. Whether you check the guy all game, or just for a few possessions, if he goes 4-16 you're going to be thinking to yourself "I don't see what's so special about him". Whether that is right or wrong, is an entirely different debate.



LMFAO, nice try but its not alot harder if the guy is an incredible midrange shooter and slasher and the 3pt gunner isn't very accurate from out there.

Being condescending won't hide flawed logic. Let's actually dissect your point though...

Jordan was an incredible midrange shooter, and so is Kobe. When you take away Kobe's 3pt % you see that their fg % is about the same. The differences in their game is Jordan avoided shooting 3s almost all together (in years the 3pt line was what it is now), and Kobe is what you called a not so accurate gunner from 3.

The flaw in your logic is in not understanding that the more you take the shot, the lesser you have to make for it to still be a significant upgrade to making midrange jumpers (why volume shooters always get away with having lower 3 pt %s than specialist). If Kobe and Jordan both took 30 shots in a game and made the same % of 2pt shots, but Kobe exchanged 10 of those 2s for 3s and hit 33% you're still getting about the same amount of production, on the same amount of usage, except Kobe is spacing for the floor better, giving you more to worry about, and if he catches heat has a higher upside of having an amazing scoring night than if Jordan caught heat (evidenced by his 81 pt night in toronto where he made 7 of 13 from three).



Yet despite this was far more productive and efficient in scoring more points than Kobe.

I don't believe this to be the case. There are too many intangibles that those formulas don't account for. Such as, how often a defender has to be within arms reach of you at a further distance opening up passing lanes and making it harder for you to help on a teammates man. When Kobe doesn't have the ball, you can't sag into the passing lanes nearly as much as you can against Jordan. All these things contribute to Kobe and Jordan being way too similarly efficient for anyone to say that they know who is the more efficient.


Tmac doesn't understand why you fail to grasp basketball.

You're telling me I don't understand basketball for agreeing with a person's opinion on basketball... and to prove that you're citing what you think that person's opinion would be. :facepalm:


Sounds like you didn't watch Magic and dont understand the differences in their games. Also, that lesser version you speak of is still superior to the players he mentioned. In fact, one of the players Bron mentioned (Julius) was actually older than Magic.

Obviously, there are a lot of differences in their games. But just like Magic said, there are a ton of similarities. My point was, that Lebron is a very similar, yet better player. Better shooter, better (and more versatile) defender... and when you compare the two head to head, Magic's skill set would be a particularly easy matchup for Lebron's skillset to offset. Magic isn't a good enough 3pt shooter or fast enough to get past Lebron, and he isn't strong or tall enough to bully him on the block. While Magic is a better PG than Isaiah Thomas was, Thomas' skillset would present more difficulties for Lebron because the speed and agility difference. And I definitely think that it would weigh into someones mind if they know that they would have no trouble with guarding you since they are looking at things from their own perspective.

Oh yeah... Kaboom

Kevj77
08-24-2013, 06:17 AM
Kobe is a great offensive player period. Is he greater than MJ nope, but it is closer than people make it out to be. I'm old enough to have watched Magic and Bird. I've seen MJ's entire career and Kobe's.

I bet most people on PSD aren't even that old. MJ was better period. It isn't as far of as peopel make it out, hell Tmac was as close as Kobe in his prime as well.

MJ might be the NBA GOAT, but he wasn't even the best athelete of the late 80s early 90s. I'd take Bo Jackson or Mike Tyson over him.

Chronz
08-24-2013, 12:12 PM
That's not relevant to the point I was making. I wasn't trying to imply that TMac locked down Jordan.
Where in my post did I imply that you meant he "locked him down"?



What I was getting at is that he had played against Jordan and Jordan wasn't spectacular in those match-ups.
And again I ask you, was Tmac ACTUALLY guarding him and how many reps did he get in? Because from my recollection, they literally played each other for 1 possession. Its why Tmac felt his quote was taken out of context, he specifically states that hes not including MJ in the comparison


Whether you check the guy all game, or just for a few possessions, if he goes 4-16 you're going to be thinking to yourself "I don't see what's so special about him". Whether that is right or wrong, is an entirely different debate.
Then why does Tmac disagree? Even if you had a point, its not relevant to THIS debate because this is about PERSONAL EXPERIENCE (ie toughest individual matchup FOR YOU). If Tmac sees someone else guard MJ well, hes not talking about HIS OWN EXP, nor would he be foolish enough to think such a minuscule sample size as an external observer would be enough to assess MJ. Hes seen FAR too much of both MJ and Kobe to ever agree with your opinion.




Being condescending won't hide flawed logic. Let's actually dissect your point though...Ur right about that, but good luck dissecting...



Jordan was an incredible midrange shooter, and so is Kobe.
Not like MJ. So.... point remains. Hes also not as good as creating shots without turning the ball over, not as great of a slasher, both are due to his smaller hands, inferior athleticism and IQ. The threat of MJ is such that hes both more productive whilst opening the game up for his teammates



When you take away Kobe's 3pt % you see that their fg % is about the same.
FG% is for amateurs, their overall efficiency, even when you grant Kobe the advantage of eliminating those shots still doesn't compare with MJ, who already has the higher usage. So yea, you're just proving why Kobe would be the easier cover and why Tmac has already agreed with me.




The flaw in your logic is in not understanding that the more you take the shot, the lesser you have to make for it to still be a significant upgrade to making midrange jumpers (why volume shooters always get away with having lower 3 pt %s than specialist). If Kobe and Jordan both took 30 shots in a game and made the same % of 2pt shots, but Kobe exchanged 10 of those 2s for 3s and hit 33% you're still getting about the same amount of production, on the same amount of usage, except Kobe is spacing for the floor better, giving you more to worry about, and if he catches heat has a higher upside of having an amazing scoring night than if Jordan caught heat (evidenced by his 81 pt night in toronto where he made 7 of 13 from three).
Except its not a flaw. Google eFG%, MJ still has him beat and thats before you consider his superior floor game (in case you didn't know, turnovers matter) and his ability to get to the line. Thus when you look at overall efficiency (ppp), Kobe doesn't compare. Use all the hypotheticals you want, it doesn't mean they get "the same amount of production".



I don't believe this to be the case. There are too many intangibles that those formulas don't account for. Such as, how often a defender has to be within arms reach of you at a further distance opening up passing lanes and making it harder for you to help on a teammates man. When Kobe doesn't have the ball, you can't sag into the passing lanes nearly as much as you can against Jordan. All these things contribute to Kobe and Jordan being way too similarly efficient for anyone to say that they know who is the more efficient.
This isn't a formulaic equation, its a cold hard fact. Kobe cant touch MJ going by raw descriptors, the formulaic stats only express just how great of a difference there is, which I dont need because its obvious without their help, as its easy to see why they would rank the player who is both more prolific and efficient as the superior performer.

If you want to make an argument based on intangibles, then feel free to give supporting evidence, just know that the onset analysis paints MJ in a completely different stratosphere, the likes of which Kobe does not compare. So I feel more than comfortable in my OBJECTIVE TOOLS that match my subjective input over you're unsubstantiated opinion.




You're telling me I don't understand basketball for agreeing with a person's opinion on basketball... and to prove that you're citing what you think that person's opinion would be. :facepalm:
No I assumed you were informed of how Tmac reacted to the quote that was taken out of context. I thought my post would be indicative of that, but since you didn't want to do your own grunt work before responding to my evisceration of your uninformed post, here it is now:

TMZ is making their own headline. I didn't face MJ in his prime to include him

And this isn't an after the fact clarification either, if you actually watch the video, as opposed to taking TMZ (a gossip site) at face value, Tmac explicitly says that hes not including MJ....... all caught up now?




Obviously, there are a lot of differences in their games. But just like Magic said, there are a ton of similarities. My point was, that Lebron is a very similar, yet better player. Better shooter, better (and more versatile) defender... and when you compare the two head to head, Magic's skill set would be a particularly easy matchup for Lebron's skillset to offset. Magic isn't a good enough 3pt shooter or fast enough to get past Lebron, and he isn't strong or tall enough to bully him on the block. While Magic is a better PG than Isaiah Thomas was, Thomas' skillset would present more difficulties for Lebron because the speed and agility difference. And I definitely think that it would weigh into someones mind if they know that they would have no trouble with guarding you since they are looking at things from their own perspective.
Thats all fine and dandy but thats not the same thing Bron was asked. He was asked to rank players, not how he felt he would match up with them. As for the argument itself, thats for another day but suffice it to say I would not agree.

KingstonHawke
08-24-2013, 02:35 PM
And again I ask you, was Tmac ACTUALLY guarding him and how many reps did he get in? Because from my recollection, they literally played each other for 1 possession. Its why Tmac felt his quote was taken out of context, he specifically states that hes not including MJ in the comparison


Then why does Tmac disagree? Even if you had a point, its not relevant to THIS debate because this is about PERSONAL EXPERIENCE (ie toughest individual matchup FOR YOU). If Tmac sees someone else guard MJ well, hes not talking about HIS OWN EXP, nor would he be foolish enough to think such a minuscule sample size as an external observer would be enough to assess MJ. Hes seen FAR too much of both MJ and Kobe to ever agree with your opinion.

FG% is for amateurs, their overall efficiency, even when you grant Kobe the advantage of eliminating those shots still doesn't compare with MJ, who already has the higher usage. So yea, you're just proving why Kobe would be the easier cover and why Tmac has already agreed with me.

Except its not a flaw. Google eFG%, MJ still has him beat and thats before you consider his superior floor game (in case you didn't know, turnovers matter) and his ability to get to the line. Thus when you look at overall efficiency (ppp), Kobe doesn't compare. Use all the hypotheticals you want, it doesn't mean they get "the same amount of production".

This isn't a formulaic equation, its a cold hard fact. Kobe cant touch MJ going by raw descriptors, the formulaic stats only express just how great of a difference there is, which I dont need because its obvious without their help, as its easy to see why they would rank the player who is both more prolific and efficient as the superior performer.

No I assumed you were informed of how Tmac reacted to the quote that was taken out of context. I thought my post would be indicative of that, but since you didn't want to do your own grunt work before responding to my evisceration of your uninformed post, here it is now:

TMZ is making their own headline. I didn't face MJ in his prime to include him

And this isn't an after the fact clarification either, if you actually watch the video, as opposed to taking TMZ (a gossip site) at face value, Tmac explicitly says that hes not including MJ....... all caught up now?



Making text bold doesn't make it any less wrong... the question was "who is the toughest guy you ever played against" and TMac replies "Kobe", and then goes on to say "I aint play against Mike in his prime".

I took/take that to mean, team vs team. And the second part, I take to mean that he didn't consider Jordan in his prime the year before he retired the first time (since most don't... keep in mind it was Jordan's worse year in a full season in MOST categories as a Bull). Obviously, I don't know TMac personally, so unlike you, I won't pretend to know exactly how he feels about the situation.

But actually think about it... if someone asked Kobe... "how did it feel playing against Shaq after all that time playing together" would you think they were asking Kobe about checking Shaq, or about sharing the court on opposing teams?

bootypants
08-24-2013, 03:09 PM
this is trash. besides the eye test, & bigger scoring games against the tougher defenses & playoff teams, MJ is the leader in ppg in the playoffs & regular season. how many offensive incoic moments Jordan had in the playoffs & finals, compare that to Kobe basically having basically no finals inconic moments(shoots 41% in the finals, go Iverson!), far less playoff big games. it's not even close. Kobe just takes advantage of crappy defenses & goes all David Thompson/Gerorge Gervin/David Robinson last day of the season push for the scoring title, only difference is he's selfish enough to pull that crap time & time again on trash teams to make himself look better than he is(50 point games). & Jordan still did 50+ far more times, in way way less games, & against better teams. Kobe can score, but not like MJ(hence MJ is the all time leader in points per game, duhhh derrrr jeeeh boss). the only true 30+ ppg player ever (regular season & playoffs combined, only Jordan, all by himself) kobe? haha come on man, forced low% shot jacking. 25 ppg(& it would be lower than that if he played in Jordan's era with handchecking,etc), he's right there with Karl Mailbags 25ppg, but not anywhere near MJ.

you can't have that many flaws like Kobe on offense, then still claim he's the best because he went bananas on bunch of trash defenses in a no handchecking era made for wing players to avg more points. the playoffs & finals are what's really important, but Jordan still outdoes KB in the regular season as well. there's just no argument for KB here, & it's insulting to MJ. ah well, the stats, polls, & video tape speak volumes, & they all say Jordan is the better scorer(& better player obviously)

durant will finish his career 30ppg i believe.

Chronz
08-24-2013, 06:22 PM
Making text bold doesn't make it any less wrong...
Doesn't make it any less right either.... Its meant for emphasis, to make sure you dont miss it like you've missed many points already.


the question was "who is the toughest guy you ever played against" and TMac replies "Kobe", and then goes on to say "I aint play against Mike in his prime".
So then why give the laughable response that he saw MJ struggle against someone else when the question was CLEARLY about INDIVIDUAL EXPERIENCE.







I took/take that to mean, team vs team.
So then why is his comment completely and utterly devoid of teams? Where is the team context to lead you to believe that? Hes not saying the Lakers were the toughest opponent while I was with the Magic or anything.

You have abit of comprehension problem it seems because its not team vs team, its clearly about the INVIDIVUAL experience vs ANOTHER INDIVIDUAL.



And the second part, I take to mean that he didn't consider Jordan in his prime the year before he retired the first time
You mean the 2nd time because he retired in 94 and again in 99.


(since most don't... keep in mind it was Jordan's worse year in a full season in MOST categories as a Bull).
You just got done telling us that Tmac faced MJ before his final year. So which argument is it? Plz stick to 1.

Anyways, his final year was STILL one of his best post season runs, one in which the offensive load he carried (thanks to Pippen's balky back) was greater than any of the prior 2 runs. MJ was very much in his prime, obviously not at his peak due to age. Wizards MJ, now thats an out of his prime AND Peak form. Thats the MJ that Tmac demolished.


Obviously, I don't know TMac personally, so unlike you, I won't pretend to know exactly how he feels about the situation.
Apparently you wont pretend to understand the context of his words either, cuz heres the thing, even if we foolishly assumed that Tmac assumes MJ in his final Bulls days to not be worthy of the comparison, the point remains, TMAC DID NOT GUARD MJ IN THOSE DAYS.



But actually think about it... if someone asked Kobe... "how did it feel playing against Shaq after all that time playing together" would you think they were asking Kobe about checking Shaq, or about sharing the court on opposing teams?
You ignore the context leading up to the question by comparing it with this COMPLETELY differently phrased question.

Quick recap of the question TMZ asked Tmac.

Yo Tmac, Kobe just named you the toughest dude to guard.

Whos YOUR toughest cover?

Its Kobe. (I never faced MJ in his prime)



The way you're taking the conversation makes no sense....


Yo Tmac, Kobe just named you the toughest dude to guard.

Whos YOUR toughest cover?

Tmac: Well, prolly Shaq. I didn't guard him but he looked tough to guard...team vs team that is....

LOL wat? I want to know UR toughest cover..


Tmac: Lakers, team vs team and all....

KingstonHawke
08-25-2013, 06:26 AM
I love how when people have no argument, they simply resort to building straw men and shooting them down. Keep switching up my arguments so they become easier to shoot down if that makes you feel good about yourself...

But stop pretending like you speak for TMac. Neither of us do. And our argument was about Jordan V. Kobe. You think Jordan was way better on offense, I say I can easily see how someone would consider Kobe the more difficult to guard (especially if the only version of Jordan they faced was post prime).

You acting like you have some objective proof when it can't even exist is pretty ******** if you ask me. You do realize that they played by different rules right? Pretty sure the zone and the natural evolution of athletics was going to hurt a few of Jordan's numbers. Just like hand-checking would've hurt Kobe's (unless the refs treated him like Jordan of course). Anyway, save all the condescending remarks. I'm all for debating, but I'm not going to stoop to your level and argue with some random stranger on line as if I'm actually invested in your opinion, beyond the potential for entertainment it may provide.

P.s. Love how every time you quote something, you actually misquote it. Pretty sure you're doing that on purpose to try and help your point. Lame