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View Full Version : Faried, Harris and Favors. Ceilings? Comparisons?



Drummond#1
08-21-2013, 11:58 PM
I'm burnt out on the Davis/Jonas/Dre discussion as well as the comparisons of legends past.

These three players showed superstar potential last year. What are their ceilings/NBA comparisons?

Faried: perennial all star/KG

Favors: all star/small D12

Tobias Harris: possible all star/David West

MrfadeawayJB
08-22-2013, 12:06 AM
I see faried more as a poor mans rodman in rebounding but with more offense production

Clippersfan86
08-22-2013, 12:15 AM
Faried isn't even close to the other two upside wise. He's a one dimensional rebounding specialist with AWFUL defense, mediocre offense. I see a career of 10 ppg/11 rpg type numbers for Faried, never really peaking much higher and continuing to be an awful defender, largely because of his size. He's basically Reggie Evans 2.0 honestly. Faried is an identical player in years 1 or 2 and I think he's pretty much as good as he will get.

Favors has the highest upside of the group and the best physical tools. I see Favors having a couple 20/10/2.5 type seasons at least and making a few all star teams while being the all star guy on the Jazz for years to come. Harris in terms of upside will be something like a Luol Deng to me. Very productive all around player who's a borderline all star most of his career with 1-2 all star games and numbers like say 17/8/3 pretty consistently. Harris should be a perfect 3rd option type on a playoff team.

RipCity32
08-22-2013, 12:20 AM
I also think Faried is all ready peaked out.

5ass
08-22-2013, 12:52 AM
Faried isn't even close to the other two upside wise. He's a one dimensional rebounding specialist with AWFUL defense, mediocre offense. I see a career of 10 ppg/11 rpg type numbers for Faried, never really peaking much higher and continuing to be an awful defender, largely because of his size. He's basically Reggie Evans 2.0 honestly. Faried is an identical player in years 1 or 2 and I think he's pretty much as good as he will get.

Favors has the highest upside of the group and the best physical tools. I see Favors having a couple 20/10/2.5 type seasons at least and making a few all star teams while being the all star guy on the Jazz for years to come. Harris in terms of upside will be something like a Luol Deng to me. Very productive all around player who's a borderline all star most of his career with 1-2 all star games and numbers like say 17/8/3 pretty consistently. Harris should be a perfect 3rd option type on a playoff team.

Why do you think Faried is an awful defender? He's pretty good IMO
Not pretty good, but he's average. If he was moved to SF he would be a very good defender.
Also Favors needs a ways to go to get to 20 ppg. He needs to develop his offensive game.
I agree about everything else though.

IndyRealist
08-22-2013, 01:01 AM
....Faried is the only one of the three that's actually DONE anything.

Don't get me wrong, Favors was legitimately buried behind Milsap and Jefferson. But per minute, he hasn't actually gotten any better in the last three years, and his eFG% has actually gone down each year. I think foul trouble will significantly limit his minutes this coming season, and that's what he really has to work on if he's going to make an impact.

I'm not gonna lie, I had to look up what team Tobias Harris is even on, so I'm not really qualified to comment on him. But I will say this, 1st to 2nd year he doubled the rate he takes 3pt shots while shooting 31.5%. That does not bode well for the notion that he's going to be an all-star caliber player. Statistically he is light years behind the other two.

Clippersfan86
08-22-2013, 01:03 AM
Why do you think Faried is an awful defender? He's pretty good IMO
Not pretty good, but he's average. If he was moved to SF he would be a very good defender.

No he's not. He's an bad defender by any measure imaginable pretty much.



"According to Synergy, a stats website, Faried's defensive work ranks in the bottom 10 percentile in the league. That earns him a "poor" rating from the site, which breaks down every possession of every player. Faried is listed as "below average" defending post-ups, spot-ups and pick-and-rolls. He's much better in isolation situations, but overall, his defense is well below average."

But at times, Faried's defense can be offensive.

"When he gets in a defensive stance, when he's focused on the concepts of the game plan, he's important," said Nuggets coach George Karl, whose team plays at Cleveland on Saturday night. "But being a young player, he gets attacked a lot, people go after him a lot, and he sometimes reacts poorly to that. ... As the game goes on, he gets better defensively, and I don't think he establishes himself early in the game with enough, maybe, focus and preparation."


Denver Post article.




I've watched him a ton and have yet to watch him play consistent defense for any stretch of time. This reminds me of Reggie Evans how non Clippers fans tried to tell us that he's a good defender based purely on his defense against Zbo. When in actuality Reggie Evans gets destroyed defensively. Faried is the same where his toughness, hustle and rebounding makes you assume he's a rugged and good defender when he's actually a very undersized, big defensive liability.

IndyRealist
08-22-2013, 01:04 AM
Why do you think Faried is an awful defender? He's pretty good IMO
Not pretty good, but he's average. If he was moved to SF he would be a very good defender.
Also Favors needs a ways to go to get to 20 ppg. He needs to develop his offensive game.
I agree about everything else though.

Also, George Karl liked to play Faried as a de facto center, where his lack of size would only be compounded against even taller players. He's not horrible at D.

RipCity32
08-22-2013, 01:04 AM
I like Tobias Harris the most of the three. Also how stupid do the Bucks look now for trading him for Redick?

Clippersfan86
08-22-2013, 01:05 AM
Also, George Karl liked to play Faried as a de facto center, where his lack of size would only be compounded against even taller players. He's not horrible at D.

At the very best he can be described as mediocre or noticeably below average. 2nd year Blake Griffin who most called an awful defender was a better defender than Faried for example. So any adjective to describe bad defense fits.

JEDean89
08-22-2013, 01:12 AM
Faried definitely has a lot of work to do, but I don't think we have seen the best of him yet.
Rodman Year 1: 6.5 4.3 in 15 mins
Rodman Year 2: 11.6 8.7 in 26 mins
Faried Year 1: 10.2 7.7 in 22 misn
Faried Year 2: 11.5 9.2 in 28 mins

so basically if Rodman had played 22 mins in his 1st year, they would have very similar starts to their career with Faried so far having the rebounding edge over him. In fact Rodman stayed at those numbers the 1st 4 years of his career until in his 5th year, his rebounding jumped to 12.5 and 18.7 year after that. You can't judge Farieds 1st two years against Rodmans 14 year career. Faried is bigger and more athletic and every bit as tenacious though certainly doesn't yet have an impressive defensive or offensive repetoire. Still, if he can find a jumpshot and improve his defense (someone said he would be better at the 3, which is crazy, he has horrible perimeter defense and notoriously struggles against stretch 4's) he can be a fringe allstar player. He's basically a 6' 8" blake griffin.

Favors is definitely gonna beast, he has the frame speed and length that is a rare combination. The Jazz better pray the Burks work out cause if they can, they will have a terrific young team.

Harris should be a large 3 rather than a small 4, but I guess the Magic don't really have anyone to play the 4 other than Big Baby.

Tristan Thompson I think will be a solid pick and can really flourish along side Bynum as a big interior. I dunno how he will work out with Bennet but I think Thompson has a higher upside than Faried atm.

I think Griffin, Favors, Davis and Randle will lead a resurgence of the 4 position, which is currently a weak position in the nba.

Clippersfan86
08-22-2013, 01:18 AM
I wouldn't say he's a 6'8 Blake Griffin. If anything he's a REALLY poor man's Blake outside of the rebounding. Blake's a SIGNIFICANTLY better scorer and passer and a better defender with only an extra year of experience. I think his upside is limited to rebounding probably, at least in terms of a big leap. His issue on defense has nothing to do with effort like it did with Blake Griffin (which is why it was so quick to improve). His issue has to do with a lower IQ, worse defensive instincts and his smaller frame. I think the dude is more like 6'6" similar to Rodman's true height. Blake on the other hand measured just under 6'9" barefoot.

I think Reggie Evans is a far better comparison because Rodman was such a beast defender from day one. Reggie Evans on the other hand has always been a legendary rebounder, OKAY scorer in the paint and mediocre defender.

JEDean89
08-22-2013, 02:02 AM
Faried measured in at 6' 7.5" at the combine, if he got starter minutes, he would be one of a dozen or so players to average a double double. You're right about the low IQ defense but that will improve under Brian Shaw. GK really had no idea what defense is. It's hard to gauge Faried's ceiling because all he's ever been told to do is hustle but if he can add some skill to his game he can definitely be a top 5 PF in his prime.

Clippersfan86
08-22-2013, 02:06 AM
Faried measured in at 6' 7.5" at the combine, if he got starter minutes, he would be one of a dozen or so players to average a double double. You're right about the low IQ defense but that will improve under Brian Shaw. GK really had no idea what defense is. It's hard to gauge Faried's ceiling because all he's ever been told to do is hustle but if he can add some skill to his game he can definitely be a top 5 PF in his prime.

Really? I didn't know he measured that high. That mean's he's just an inch and a quarter shorter than Blake. I still don't think he's anything like Blake though man. I think he's a rebounding specialist with offensive potential but as I said I don't see much more than an 11/11 type player for a good 10 year career, borderline all star a couple years. I agree Karl didn't teach defense much but I wouldn't rely on a rookie head coach to evolve him there, but we shall see.

JEDean89
08-22-2013, 02:10 AM
PER 36 there numbers are 20 and 9 vs 15 and 12, and Griffin is more experienced and plays with Chris Paul. I dunno why you think he's a really poor mans anything, on ESPN a 5 on 5 guys had 4 for Griffin and 1 for Faried when asked who they think the best PF will be in 5 years. I understand Griffin is a huge deal in Clipperland, but come on, Griffin has not gotten hardly any better either in his 3 years (4 if you count his 1st contract year). He is a horrific shot blocker and his defensive win shares in his 2nd year were way worse than Faried's 2nd year. In fact Faried's defensive win shares doubled this last year. Griffin is definitely better than Faried offensively, but it's not an out of the world difference. Your Griffin homerism is warranted but your Faried hate isn't.

JEDean89
08-22-2013, 02:14 AM
Griffin was 6 10, the shoe measurement is what the NBA goes by nowadays so Faried is 2.5" shorter. He is really short but has a 7' wingspan which is longer than Blake Griffin. I wouldn't look too much into Height anymore. Farieds length and athleticism works just as well as height. There should be a true height advanced stat that takes vertical and wingspan into account.

Clippersfan86
08-22-2013, 02:20 AM
Draft express lists both in and out of shoes I think. I agree wingspan can compensate but he's still very small for a PF height wise

Clippersfan86
08-22-2013, 02:28 AM
PER 36 there numbers are 20 and 9 vs 15 and 12, and Griffin is more experienced and plays with Chris Paul. I dunno why you think he's a really poor mans anything, on ESPN a 5 on 5 guys had 4 for Griffin and 1 for Faried when asked who they think the best PF will be in 5 years. I understand Griffin is a huge deal in Clipperland, but come on, Griffin has not gotten hardly any better either in his 3 years (4 if you count his 1st contract year). He is a horrific shot blocker and his defensive win shares in his 2nd year were way worse than Faried's 2nd year. In fact Faried's defensive win shares doubled this last year. Griffin is definitely better than Faried offensively, but it's not an out of the world difference. Your Griffin homerism is warranted but your Faried hate isn't.

"Plays with Chris Paul" argument has been proven wrong dozens of times here, do I need to go over it again? Blake's best career numbers came before Paul and his production goes up or at worst stays similar with Paul off the court or out with injuryn chris Paul in no way, shape or form elevates the game of Blake Griffin. At least so far he hasn't. Griffin is a better scorer, passer and defender, while being much more efficient than Faried. I just can't justify a "shorter Blake Griffin" when they are nothing alike. He's a younger, more athletic Reggie Evans with more offensive potential.

Blake's improved plenty, but so has the talent around him which makes the stats deceiving. I won't be surprised though if Doc get's something like 24/11/3 out of Blake this year. I'm not being a homer here, just not a good comparison.

JEDean89
08-22-2013, 01:48 PM
No doubt Griffin is a better scorer and passer, but he is the #1 option on his team, Faried was #4 or at best #3 and still puts up competitive scoring #'s per 36 mins

Farieds Shot Chart
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://img.bleacherreport.net/img/article/media_slots/photos/000/909/691/Faried3_crop_exact.jpg%3Fw%3D650%26h%3D433%26q%3D8 5&imgrefurl=http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1669256-kenneth-farieds-offseason-to-do-list-for-maximizing-potential-next-season&h=433&w=650&sz=42&tbnid=pmGnDoVWRAzBNM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=135&zoom=1&usg=__R9VDlddhB5dcSuAVAjxmsMt1ppU=&docid=FpfhchS_RnekLM&sa=X&ei=Mk0WUrvEOtPcqAH5y4CwAw&ved=0CEwQ9QEwBA&dur=472

Griffins Shot Chart
https://www.google.com/search?q=blake+griffin+shot+chart&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=QU0WUtngN8euqgGWg4CwBg&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=1678&bih=965#facrc=_&imgrc=ui0K2XE0ipJKUM%3A%3BdxBYeNfGGYPgLM%3Bhttp%25 3A%252F%252Fa.espncdn.com%252Fphoto%252F2013%252F0 510%252Fgrant_r_GriffinBlake_Goldsberry.jpg%3Bhttp %253A%252F%252Fwww.grantland.com%252Fstory%252F_%2 52Fid%252F9261768%252Fnba-trade-value-part-3%3B1152%3B850

basically none of them can score outside of the paint so it's not like Griffin is that much more skilled, he just gets 5 more shot attempts up per game because the Clipps run plays for Griffin and the Nuggets didn't for Faried. He scored only on transition plays, or on offensive rebounds. Griffin is a better passer no doubt, but their sophomore DWS #'s have Kenneth way ahead, he is also a far superior shot blocker. Griffin is also only 1.2 a DWS better than Faried last year. You need to back up your claims with stats if you want me to take you seriously. You really don't know what your talking about. They both are Highlight reel energy guys who can't score outside the paint and have limited offensive arsenals. They both live above the rim and shoot around 55% FG. Griffin is a higher volume scorer and certainly a better passer and Faried is the clear cut better rebounder. Other than that they are very similar.

MonroeFAN
08-22-2013, 02:36 PM
Farried took a huge step back last season, IMO. I would not include him in this list.

sunsfan88
08-22-2013, 09:59 PM
Favors can be a bit less offensively skilled version of Amare in his prime with more defense.

Clippersfan86
08-23-2013, 10:48 AM
No doubt Griffin is a better scorer and passer, but he is the #1 option on his team, Faried was #4 or at best #3 and still puts up competitive scoring #'s per 36 mins

Farieds Shot Chart
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://img.bleacherreport.net/img/article/media_slots/photos/000/909/691/Faried3_crop_exact.jpg%3Fw%3D650%26h%3D433%26q%3D8 5&imgrefurl=http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1669256-kenneth-farieds-offseason-to-do-list-for-maximizing-potential-next-season&h=433&w=650&sz=42&tbnid=pmGnDoVWRAzBNM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=135&zoom=1&usg=__R9VDlddhB5dcSuAVAjxmsMt1ppU=&docid=FpfhchS_RnekLM&sa=X&ei=Mk0WUrvEOtPcqAH5y4CwAw&ved=0CEwQ9QEwBA&dur=472

Griffins Shot Chart
https://www.google.com/search?q=blake+griffin+shot+chart&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=QU0WUtngN8euqgGWg4CwBg&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=1678&bih=965#facrc=_&imgrc=ui0K2XE0ipJKUM%3A%3BdxBYeNfGGYPgLM%3Bhttp%25 3A%252F%252Fa.espncdn.com%252Fphoto%252F2013%252F0 510%252Fgrant_r_GriffinBlake_Goldsberry.jpg%3Bhttp %253A%252F%252Fwww.grantland.com%252Fstory%252F_%2 52Fid%252F9261768%252Fnba-trade-value-part-3%3B1152%3B850

basically none of them can score outside of the paint so it's not like Griffin is that much more skilled, he just gets 5 more shot attempts up per game because the Clipps run plays for Griffin and the Nuggets didn't for Faried. He scored only on transition plays, or on offensive rebounds. Griffin is a better passer no doubt, but their sophomore DWS #'s have Kenneth way ahead, he is also a far superior shot blocker. Griffin is also only 1.2 a DWS better than Faried last year. You need to back up your claims with stats if you want me to take you seriously. You really don't know what your talking about. They both are Highlight reel energy guys who can't score outside the paint and have limited offensive arsenals. They both live above the rim and shoot around 55% FG. Griffin is a higher volume scorer and certainly a better passer and Faried is the clear cut better rebounder. Other than that they are very similar.

Shot chart looks similar but with Griffin attempting way more shots. Increase Faried's attempts and he obviously gets less efficient. Griffin is at the top of the league in points and the paint and finishing efficiency (ranked 2nd in both). Griffin's also double teamed regularly, which Faried has never dealt with. Teams know in single coverage Griffin can easily drop 25+ on you, they don't have to worry about garbage man scorer Faried who can't create his own offense.

I don't think you understand that a 3 apg PER 36 and both regular minutes difference is MASSIVE. Griffin's overall offensive impact blows Faried's out of the water. An extra 5 ppg PER 36 is HUGE and Griffin has proven time and time again that when fed the ball more he can get 25 points regularly. Faried hasn't shown he can be a go to guy and his offensive is pretty much entirely off hustle or easy finishes inside. You claim they are equally limited offensively but then call out my knowledge?

Griffin= creates his own offense pretty damn efficiently for a young PF, gets constant double teams and has proven when the go to guy can produce at a very high level scoring wise. 23 ppg as a rookie, increased scoring when Paul isn't in.

Faried= show me videos of him consistently creating his offense. Show me video of him getting double teams. Show me the video of him being relied on as the go to scorer. If you increase his minutes to mid-high 30's he's likely going to foul out first of all. If he doesn't do that he's going to have a drop in efficiency.

I don't use things like defensive win shares alone where as you said Griffin only had a small edge. You look at Synergy and you start to see some really glaring defensive flaws from Faried. No defensive system is perfect but when you use both together you can really see that Griffin is a noticeably better defender. He stops his man far more efficiently in all situations. Faried is near league worst as the 380th ranked defender, Griffin is 107th. Faried is worse in literally every category when it comes to getting stops. Worse in isolation defense, worse defending PNR, worse defending ball handlers, worse defending spot up shooters.

Stop forcing a square peg into a round hole with lazy comparisons. Faried isn't a 3rd option because of being poorly used. He's a 3rd option because he can't create his own offense and isn't a particularly gifted scorer.


What about this reminds you of Kenneth Faried??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIUUDWRxl0w



"He's entering his fourth full NBA season, fifth removed from college. He is 24 years old. According to Basketball Reference, he is only the second player in NBA history to compile 4,500 points, 2,000 rebounds, 800 assists and shoot 50 percent or better in his first three seasons combined, duplicating all-time leading scorer Kareem Abdul-Jabbar’s mark."


Man some people forget how special Blake is.

Tony_Starks
08-23-2013, 03:03 PM
Favors has the highest ceiling but I'd still take Farried. His motor and energy are things you can't teach. Plus he runs the floor great for a big and is a great finisher.

If he can expand his game to just include some elementary offense he'll be very good for years to come.

Lakers Ghost
08-23-2013, 03:21 PM
I'm burnt out on the Davis/Jonas/Dre discussion as well as the comparisons of legends past.

These three players showed superstar potential last year. What are their ceilings/NBA comparisons?

Faried: perennial all star/KG

Favors: all star/small D12

Tobias Harris: possible all star/David West

Faried is what he is dont see him a superstar. Favors is going to have a good season but will not become a superstar but Kanter is going to have a breakout season with more potential than favors. harris the same good but not that good again I think Kanter would have a better season than these 3 players.

cghcgjxjian
08-24-2013, 01:33 AM
I'm burnt out on the Davis/Jonas/Dre discussion as well as the comparisons of legends past.http://healthllife.com/images/images/18.gif