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View Full Version : PAYTON & BRYANT or NASH & BRYANT?



B.JenningsMVP
08-21-2013, 06:22 PM
Let's say they are in their primes, what laker backcourt are you going to take?

D-Leethal
08-21-2013, 06:31 PM
Payton and Bryant. Don't like the mix of Nash and Bryant at all whether they are both 28 or both 38. GP/Kobe would be scary defensive backcourt.

More-Than-Most
08-21-2013, 06:39 PM
Nash And Kobe... I am fine with both but I love Nash and his offensive ability more

More-Than-Most
08-21-2013, 06:40 PM
Stockton and Kobe in their Primes :speechless:

Stockton and Shaq :speechless: :jumpy: :speechless:

Chacarron
08-21-2013, 06:43 PM
GP and Kobe defense would be nasty.

More-Than-Most
08-21-2013, 06:45 PM
GP and Kobe defense would be nasty.

This is very very true... I am one of the people who thinks Nash defense is severely underrated. People act like it doesnt exist... He is by no means a good defender but he is not as bad as people make him out to be

MTar786
08-21-2013, 06:48 PM
This is very very true... I am one of the people who thinks Nash defense is severely underrated. People act like it doesnt exist... He is by no means a good defender but he is not as bad as people make him out to be


no no, his defense is more than non existent. gp and kobe easily

lincecum=future
08-21-2013, 06:55 PM
I agree GP and Kobe would be dirty

el hidalgo
08-21-2013, 06:58 PM
neither PG will touch the ball much, so ill take the better defender. payton and kobe

abe_froman
08-21-2013, 07:08 PM
not saying anyone is wrong,just food for thought-nash is arguably the greatest playmaker/setup man in history and outside shooter to just drain 3's.

Six-8-TheWizard
08-21-2013, 07:08 PM
Payton and Kobe. With a guy who can score by himself like Kobe, Nash would pretty well be relegated to just a 3pt shooter. I'd rather have Payton's defense over Nash's superior shooting in that case.

Nash and Kobe just don't really mesh well

5ass
08-21-2013, 07:31 PM
Kobe's best fit in the back court is prime Chauncey Billups.

tredigs
08-21-2013, 07:37 PM
I want the Nash and West Lakers backcourt.

lukass
08-21-2013, 07:51 PM
nash n kobe, nash could make a bunch of scrubs look like all stars. nash+kobe+whoever else=rings

Hawkeye15
08-21-2013, 07:57 PM
GP for one reason. For Nash to truly be effective, he needs to be running the offense, and Kobe refuses to not have huge usage, limiting Nash. Payton on the other hand, would still be able to shut his man down, and take the scraps left over.

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-21-2013, 08:04 PM
GP for one reason. For Nash to truly be effective, he needs to be running the offense, and Kobe refuses to not have huge usage, limiting Nash. Payton on the other hand, would still be able to shut his man down, and take the scraps left over.
Take the Scraps? Oh stop. Kobe would definetly get Payton involved in the game. People forget that Kobe never played with a half decent pg his whole career. He had no choice but to run the offense.

B.JenningsMVP
08-21-2013, 08:08 PM
But he never played with billups, kobe played with both payton and nash (passed their prime though)

Hawkeye15
08-21-2013, 08:08 PM
Take the Scraps? Oh stop. Kobe would definetly get Payton involved in the game. People forget that Kobe never played with a half decent pg his whole career. He had no choice but to run the offense.

may have been an extreme term, but yeah, Kobe wants the ball, he wants his shots, so I am taking the one that has more impact than just offensively.

Do you know why he hasn't played with a good PG?

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-21-2013, 08:11 PM
may have been an extreme term, but yeah, Kobe wants the ball, he wants his shots, so I am taking the one that has more impact than just offensively.

Do you know why he hasn't played with a good PG?
Because they Lakers never had great PG's outside of Magic. Things would be alot different if Kobe actually had someone who could handle the ball. Kobe would have alot more energy for other things if he had a true PG to take some of the load off of him.

flea
08-21-2013, 08:18 PM
What? Prime Fisher was more than a competent PG. Sure he wasn't a star, but it's not like he was below average.

HouRealCoach
08-21-2013, 08:18 PM
Take the Scraps? Oh stop. Kobe would definetly get Payton involved in the game. People forget that Kobe never played with a half decent pg his whole career. He had no choice but to run the offense.

Don't down Derek Fisher, he is a good PG... He didn't have it because Phil Jackson's offense never needed an all star PG.

To answer the question, GP by far just because of his defense alone

Hawkeye15
08-21-2013, 08:20 PM
Because they Lakers never had great PG's outside of Magic. Things would be alot different if Kobe actually had someone who could handle the ball. Kobe would have alot more energy for other things if he had a true PG to take some of the load off of him.

Wrong. It's because Tex Winters offense prefers not to spend money on a PG, and instead get a floor stretcher who can make skip passes.

Kobe played with a top 4 center ever. Gasol/Bynum was the top frontcourt PF/C duo in the NBA for 3 years. He had a top 2 coach ever. So no need to be upset about him not having a top tier PG, the least important position in the triangle.

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-21-2013, 08:24 PM
What? Prime Fisher was more than a competent PG. Sure he wasn't a star, but it's not like he was below average.


Don't down Derek Fisher, he is a good PG... He didn't have it because Phil Jackson's offense never needed an all star PG.

To answer the question, GP by far just because of his defense alone

Lmao, Derek fisher was never any good. Hitting clutch shots doesn't make you good. He's a 8/3/2 career player for christ sakes. Don't sit her and pump up Fisher like he was anything special. He was always one of the worst starting pgs every year.

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-21-2013, 08:26 PM
Wrong. It's because Tex Winters offense prefers not to spend money on a PG, and instead get a floor stretcher who can make skip passes.

Kobe played with a top 4 center ever. Gasol/Bynum was the top frontcourt PF/C duo in the NBA for 3 years. He had a top 2 coach ever. So no need to be upset about him not having a top tier PG, the least important position in the triangle.
True, but that fact remains. Kobe never played with a good pg.

I think you're going a little far becuase Gasol and Bynum never really got to play together healthy. It was really just Kobe and Gasol. Bynum was hand wrapped two rings from these guys.

Citanoxeno
08-21-2013, 08:29 PM
not saying anyone is wrong,just food for thought-nash is arguably the greatest playmaker/setup man in history and outside shooter to just drain 3's.

Magic Johnson and John Stockton says hi

TrueFan420
08-21-2013, 08:30 PM
True, but that fact remains. Kobe never played with a good pg.

I think you're going a little far becuase Gasol and Bynum never really got to play together healthy. It was really just Kobe and Gasol. Bynum was hand wrapped two rings from these guys.

You also had odom who was massive for you guys in that stretch

dnl123
08-21-2013, 08:32 PM
True, but that fact remains. Kobe never played with a good pg.

I think you're going a little far becuase Gasol and Bynum never really got to play together healthy. It was really just Kobe and Gasol. Bynum was hand wrapped two rings from these guys.

Kobe wouldn't use a good PG, he's an isolation scorer and get's most of his points playing with the ball. To answer the question you have to consider that because of Kobe Nash's skills aren't being used (cause there's only one ball on the floor) so I have to take GP because he's a better defender.

mrblisterdundee
08-21-2013, 08:38 PM
Let's see: Gary Payton has three times more defensive win shares over 17 seasons than Steve Nash does, along with a lesser but comparable number of offensive win shares.
But I think a lot depends on who the coach is. Obviously I would prefer Phil Jackson over Mike D'Antoni. But if D'Antoni's coach, you might as well forget about defense, quicken the pace and have Nash and Kobe Bryant running all damn day, with Bryant scoring 35 a game because he also has Nash passing to him. If you run a triangle offense and play some defense, then Payton's your guy.
I think the more successful option would be Payton and Bryant without D'Antoni.

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-21-2013, 08:45 PM
You also had odom who was massive for you guys in that stretch
I will give you Odom, nut not Bynum.

Kobe wouldn't use a good PG, he's an isolation scorer and get's most of his points playing with the ball. To answer the question you have to consider that because of Kobe Nash's skills aren't being used (cause there's only one ball on the floor) so I have to take GP because he's a better defender.I don't think it's fair to say he wouldn't have done a great job getting a good pg involved since we never seen him play with one.

ThuglifeJ
08-21-2013, 08:45 PM
Simple. Payton and Kobe. Now if Shaq was still there than maybe I'd think Nash. But if you're talking just Kobe and a point guard, you'd go Payton easily. Nash is best at setting up bigs/pick n roll mans. Kobe doesnt need to or like to be set up as much as he likes dominating the ball or being isolated/posted up. It's not like Nash has declined as a player much at all anyways, if he was still in Phoenix he'd still be pretty darn good and next to Kobe right now...he ain't that good.

Ebbs
08-21-2013, 09:28 PM
GP and Kobe fit better.

Nash and Kobe would've had more potential but would prime Kobe be ok playing off ball? I doubt it.

Bostonjorge
08-21-2013, 09:56 PM
Kobe would win multiple rings with both players if they were in there primes. With Nash and kobe no team would be able to stop that offense with Nash creating and kobe finishing. Kobe and Payton great defensively with Payton playing a similar role to pippen but at the point.

Silent
08-21-2013, 10:09 PM
Gp and Kobe on the same team good luck getting to the hole

mdm692
08-21-2013, 10:11 PM
no no, his defense is more than non existent. gp and kobe easily

Drawing charges and telling your teammates where to be defensively doesn't count? I understand he doesn't have the tools physically to be a good defender but his IQ alone helps a ton. To answer the question I'll stick with Nash and Kobe. Mr. 40-50-90 w/ Kobe and the best center of the past 20 years would not be fair at all.

mdm692
08-21-2013, 10:13 PM
GP and Kobe fit better.

Nash and Kobe would've had more potential but would prime Kobe be ok playing off ball? I doubt it.

What about Nash playing off the ball as a shooter? With Kobe getting double teamed Nash could shoot 50-60-90 lol. Ok maybe I'm exaggerating a bit.

DreamShaker
08-21-2013, 10:18 PM
GP for one reason. For Nash to truly be effective, he needs to be running the offense, and Kobe refuses to not have huge usage, limiting Nash. Payton on the other hand, would still be able to shut his man down, and take the scraps left over.

This.

el hidalgo
08-21-2013, 10:22 PM
Lmao, Derek fisher was never any good. Hitting clutch shots doesn't make you good. He's a 8/3/2 career player for christ sakes. Don't sit her and pump up Fisher like he was anything special. He was always one of the worst starting pgs every year.

Yet if he played with LeBron, he would be an elite 3 point shooting clutch PG :laugh:

Hawkeye15
08-21-2013, 10:27 PM
True, but that fact remains. Kobe never played with a good pg.

I think you're going a little far becuase Gasol and Bynum never really got to play together healthy. It was really just Kobe and Gasol. Bynum was hand wrapped two rings from these guys.

The triangle doesn't need a good PG if it has it's elite wing/frontcourt.

False. You lost the 2008 series because of what you claim, but your other 2 chips in that era support my statement.

KnicksorBust
08-21-2013, 10:30 PM
The smart answer is Gp. The advanced genius level response is Nash. Nice try gp lovers

Hawkeye15
08-21-2013, 10:41 PM
The smart answer is Gp. The advanced genius level response is Nash. Nice try gp lovers

both sides of the ball dude.

Bostonjorge
08-21-2013, 10:53 PM
Safe to say they both win championships with kobe.

Chronz
08-22-2013, 12:23 AM
Thats a damn good question...... he has played with both but never seemed to stay healthy enough to click with either, even in their declined form. Just a matter of who you feel dropped off less. I think he could play great with both tho

KnicksorBust
08-22-2013, 12:28 AM
both sides of the ball dude.

I'll simplify it and if you disagree that's fine.

Nash offensively > Payton defensively

Bang Bros89
08-22-2013, 12:44 AM
GP for one reason. For Nash to truly be effective, he needs to be running the offense, and Kobe refuses to not have huge usage, limiting Nash. Payton on the other hand, would still be able to shut his man down, and take the scraps left over.

This, combined with the surplus of PG's in todays game. You need a shutdown PG defender, Payton fills that role.

In the west alone you have to deal with: Westbrook, Lillard, Rubio, Parker, Paul, Lawson, Conley, Curry, Jrue, etc. Payton over Nash any day, especially considering Kobe's usage rate.

Nash's impact offensively does not compare to Payton's impact defensively, secondly Kobe will not be forced to chase around PG's, saving him some energy. (I rather Kobe defend Thabo than Westy) Even if "Nash Offensively> GP Defensively"

IKnowHoops
08-22-2013, 01:04 AM
not saying anyone is wrong,just food for thought-nash is arguably the greatest playmaker/setup man in history and outside shooter to just drain 3's.

Yes but Gary Payton is without a doubt plays the best defense at the PG position and he is a 22 8 guy who was setting up the Rain Man from half court so the guy can pass the ball too.

Have to go with GP and KB easily. And even though Nash is a better facilitator than Gary, I think Gary and Kobe would have a better two man game going between each other. They would play off each other better because Gary is a better scorer than nash and and score from more places.

Defensively they would be a nightmare. There double team would be a turnover machine.

Bishnoff
08-22-2013, 01:06 AM
GP for one reason. For Nash to truly be effective, he needs to be running the offense, and Kobe refuses to not have huge usage, limiting Nash. Payton on the other hand, would still be able to shut his man down, and take the scraps left over.

This.

cahawk
08-22-2013, 02:00 AM
Magic & Nash

OceanSpray
08-22-2013, 02:04 AM
GP/Bryant. Bryant will have the ball on his hands and you'll see Nash becoming useless since his defense is severely lacking. GP will do the intangibles, which might just be enough.

raiderposting
08-22-2013, 02:29 AM
I'll simplify it and if you disagree that's fine.

Nash offensively > Payton defensively

Payton's DEFENSE+Offense>Nash's OFFENSE+no D

arlubas
08-22-2013, 03:28 AM
I would actually prefer Payton to Nash regardless of Kobe being there or not.

LAcowBOMBER
08-22-2013, 03:46 AM
True, but that fact remains. Kobe never played with a good pg.

I think you're going a little far becuase Gasol and Bynum never really got to play together healthy. It was really just Kobe and Gasol. Bynum was hand wrapped two rings from these guys.

Gasol and Bynum played together for 65 games in 09 and all their playoff games when they won a title

OceanSpray
08-22-2013, 06:14 AM
True, but that fact remains. Kobe never played with a good pg.

I think you're going a little far becuase Gasol and Bynum never really got to play together healthy. It was really just Kobe and Gasol. Bynum was hand wrapped two rings from these guys.

... You didn't need a great PG to play in the triangle offense. The ball would've moved around to the point where having a great PG would be wasted. Do you know what you're talking about? Also, Kobe never played with a good PG because it wouldn't make any sense to bring a PG when Kobe needs the ball. That's like putting Chris Paul and LeBron on the same team. Sure, Chris Paul and LeBron would dominate, but a more ideal scenario would be utilizing players to their ability. James and Paul can't have the ball 100% of the time so you would just be wasting salary on a player without their full potential.

KnicksorBust
08-22-2013, 10:46 AM
Payton's DEFENSE+Offense>Nash's OFFENSE+no D

Nash's Offense + Defense + BBall IQ > Payton's Offense + Defense + BBall IQ

Check.

Heatcheck
08-22-2013, 11:09 AM
I think people forget how productive Gary Payton was. there were like two years in his prime when it was him and shaq and then everyone else. payton and Bryant wouldve been the best back court weve ever seen. elite offense AND elite defense. the chemistry thing wouldve been tough though.

Heatcheck
08-22-2013, 11:14 AM
I'll simplify it and if you disagree that's fine.

Nash offensively > Payton defensively

see what i mean? the man was maybe a half a notch below Nash offensively, and worlds ahead of him defensively

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-22-2013, 12:49 PM
The triangle doesn't need a good PG if it has it's elite wing/frontcourt.

False. You lost the 2008 series because of what you claim, but your other 2 chips in that era support my statement.

Bynum had minimal to do with our two championships idk what you're talking about. he was operating on one leg.

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-22-2013, 12:52 PM
Gasol and Bynum played together for 65 games in 09 and all their playoff games when they won a title

You mean when Bynum was dropping a whopping 8/7/0 in the playoffs? I give Bynum very little credit for our championships. The next year with Bynum at full health and as our leading big man, we got raped. Kobe and Gasol got us our championship not Bynum, Kobe actually confirmed this on Kobe up close.

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-22-2013, 12:53 PM
... You didn't need a great PG to play in the triangle offense. The ball would've moved around to the point where having a great PG would be wasted. Do you know what you're talking about? Also, Kobe never played with a good PG because it wouldn't make any sense to bring a PG when Kobe needs the ball. That's like putting Chris Paul and LeBron on the same team. Sure, Chris Paul and LeBron would dominate, but a more ideal scenario would be utilizing players to their ability. James and Paul can't have the ball 100% of the time so you would just be wasting salary on a player without their full potential.

Still doesn't disprove my point about Kobe never playing a with a good pg.

OceanSpray
08-22-2013, 12:58 PM
Still doesn't disprove my point about Kobe never playing a with a good pg.

Yeah, it does. You don't need a good PG when Kobe is just going to have the ball in his hands regardless.. Refer to Nash being completely useless this season. You take away a good PG's potential when you put him on a team with someone who also dominates the ball.

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-22-2013, 01:02 PM
Yeah, it does. You don't need a good PG when Kobe is just going to have the ball in his hands regardless.. Refer to Nash being completely useless this season. You take away a good PG's potential when you put him on a team with someone who also dominates the ball.

Wrong, Kobe has the ball in his hands most of the time because he never had a PG to handle the ball. If he had a good PG do you really think he would dominate the ball like he does now? Don't be foolish.

Nash is 40 dude, and Kobe gave him the option to lead the offense. Kobe had to take back that lead because Nash played like dog **** all year. Did you watch any Laker games last year?

OceanSpray
08-22-2013, 01:07 PM
Wrong, Kobe has the ball in his hands most of the time because he never had a PG to handle the ball. If he had a good PG do you really think he would dominate the ball like he does now? Don't be foolish.

Nash is 40 dude, and Kobe gave him the option to lead the offense. Kobe had to take back that lead because Nash played like dog **** all year. Did you watch any Laker games last year?

Dude, accept defeat when it's handed to you. Has Kobe been successful in his career? YES. Why? Because he dominates the ball. It's actually a good thing he doesn't have a good PG - he doesn't need one. He can do anything a PG does if he wanted anyways. A player who can dominate the ball as much as Kobe just needs a frontcourt presence. Would you rather have Kobe and Chris Paul or Kobe and Shaq? C'mon, it ain't hard to answer.

Hawkeye15
08-22-2013, 01:07 PM
I'll simplify it and if you disagree that's fine.

Nash offensively > Payton defensively

true, but I simply think the offensive value may not be worth as much with such a high usage wing demanding the ball, therefore that defense does become more valuable than in normal circumstances.

Hawkeye15
08-22-2013, 01:09 PM
Nash's Offense + Defense + BBall IQ > Payton's Offense + Defense + BBall IQ

Check.

haha. It's becoming a new advanced stat

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-22-2013, 01:11 PM
Dude, accept defeat when it's handed to you. Has Kobe been successful in his career? YES. Why? Because he dominates the ball. It's actually a good thing he doesn't have a good PG - he doesn't need one. He can do anything a PG does if he wanted anyways. A player who can dominate the ball as much as Kobe just needs a frontcourt presence. Would you rather have Kobe and Chris Paul or Kobe and Shaq? C'mon, it ain't hard to answer.

The point you're trying to make differs from mine. that's why you're confused.

Hawkeye15
08-22-2013, 01:21 PM
The point you're trying to make differs from mine. that's why you're confused.

no, the point is, you are correct, but you act like it would make a difference. In the triangle, the money is spent elsewhere. It doesn't need a ball dominating PG at all. Hence why it's PG's have been:

BJ Armstrong
Steve Kerr
John Paxon
Derek Fisher

You don't go out and pay a top tier PG millions, when all you need him to do is dribble the ball up the floor, and set in motion the triangle.

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-22-2013, 01:34 PM
no, the point is, you are correct, but you act like it would make a difference. In the triangle, the money is spent elsewhere. It doesn't need a ball dominating PG at all. Hence why it's PG's have been:

BJ Armstrong
Steve Kerr
John Paxon
Derek Fisher

You don't go out and pay a top tier PG millions, when all you need him to do is dribble the ball up the floor, and set in motion the triangle.

I totally get what you are saying, but Kobe would not make a good PG worthless. That's basically all I was saying. Kobe would benefit from having a good PG IMO.

KnicksorBust
08-22-2013, 01:59 PM
Dude, accept defeat when it's handed to you. Has Kobe been successful in his career? YES. Why? Because he dominates the ball. It's actually a good thing he doesn't have a good PG - he doesn't need one. He can do anything a PG does if he wanted anyways. A player who can dominate the ball as much as Kobe just needs a frontcourt presence. Would you rather have Kobe and Chris Paul or Kobe and Shaq? C'mon, it ain't hard to answer.

The bold make no sense to me. Obviously he would take a good point guard over a statue and what does Shaq have to do with anything? How in this comparison has Gary Payton turned into Shaq? :)

To me it just comes down to the fact that Nash was so unbelievably good offensively in his prime that he and Kobe would have slowly merged into a deadly guard duo. I don't see Payton and Kobe making each other's lives easier on offense but I can see Nash and Kobe running in transition and even running screens and back door cuts for each other. To me the defensive impact is not as large as the offensive impact would be pairing one of the 3 greatest offensive points guards with one of the 3 greatest offensive shooting guards.

KnicksorBust
08-22-2013, 01:59 PM
haha. It's becoming a new advanced stat

If only there was a way to quantify it. It's all hearsay.

Hawkeye15
08-22-2013, 02:01 PM
I totally get what you are saying, but Kobe would not make a good PG worthless. That's basically all I was saying. Kobe would benefit from having a good PG IMO.

agreed. I just don't think a great PG would benefit a ton from the triangle, though I am sure Tex and co would have made some adjustments if a wizard like Nash was drafted there.

OceanSpray
08-22-2013, 02:46 PM
The bold make no sense to me. Obviously he would take a good point guard over a statue and what does Shaq have to do with anything? How in this comparison has Gary Payton turned into Shaq? :)

To me it just comes down to the fact that Nash was so unbelievably good offensively in his prime that he and Kobe would have slowly merged into a deadly guard duo. I don't see Payton and Kobe making each other's lives easier on offense but I can see Nash and Kobe running in transition and even running screens and back door cuts for each other. To me the defensive impact is not as large as the offensive impact would be pairing one of the 3 greatest offensive points guards with one of the 3 greatest offensive shooting guards.

The bold part means would you rather have an elite pg+sg or an elite sg+Center?

OceanSpray
08-22-2013, 02:47 PM
I totally get what you are saying, but Kobe would not make a good PG worthless. That's basically all I was saying. Kobe would benefit from having a good PG IMO.

He didn't say it wouldn't benefit. Obviously a team of max contract players are going to beat a team with one max contract and 4 good players. There's just money better spent on other positions.

KnicksorBust
08-22-2013, 02:49 PM
The bold part means would you rather have an elite pg+sg or an elite sg+Center?

What does that have to do with this thread? The choice is between Payton and Nash. Neither are centers.

OceanSpray
08-22-2013, 02:50 PM
What does that have to do with this thread? The choice is between Payton and Nash. Neither are centers.

Someone changed the topic back to Kobe benefiting from a PG, I'm just putting my thought into it. Have a nice day.

beasted86
08-22-2013, 03:04 PM
This is very very true... I am one of the people who thinks Nash defense is severely underrated. People act like it doesnt exist... He is by no means a good defender but he is not as bad as people make him out to be

No dude, he's bad.

His inability to defend other star PGs in the West is pretty much the reason he's never seen a Finals. There's always been one PG or another going off on his team in a playoff series. Tony Parker, Mike Bibby, etc..

You just watch his fundamentals and you clearly see that he is bad. You see an old guy like Ray Allen and although he is a step slow he has good fundamentals, but you watch Nash, even in his younger days and you see it has nothing to do with lateral quickness, he is just bad. On ball is just bad.... but pick and roll is possibly the worst I've ever seen.

Heatcheck
08-22-2013, 03:09 PM
Nash's Offense + Defense + BBall IQ > Payton's Offense + Defense + BBall IQ

Check.

Huh? are you high? how old are you? tell the truth....you know which gary payton we're talking about here?

Hawkeye15
08-22-2013, 03:11 PM
Huh? are you high? how old are you? tell the truth....you know which gary payton we're talking about here?

you may be overrating the Glove here. Offensively, Nash is superior, period, no argument.

OceanSpray
08-22-2013, 03:15 PM
you may be overrating the Glove here. Offensively, Nash is superior, period, no argument.

Two lockdown defenders in Kobe/GP? Nash is the better player but Kobe/GP backcourt would be disturbing.

Heatcheck
08-22-2013, 03:17 PM
you may be overrating the Glove here. Offensively, Nash is superior, period, no argument.

superior as in he played in a system where he dominates the ball and they take a shot every 8 seconds?

hes better, but not enough to offset the defense

el hidalgo
08-22-2013, 03:19 PM
funny how both players saw a significant drop in their stats the year they started playing with kobe. kobe just isn't a team player. why do people keep trying to dispute that in this thread?

R. Johnson#3
08-22-2013, 03:28 PM
GP easily. Solid defense and incredible trash talking.

beasted86
08-22-2013, 03:31 PM
Nash isn't a whole lot better than Payton offensively if we are comparing prime/peak and you factor in pace. Now defense on the other hand......

rjkgr
08-22-2013, 03:43 PM
kobe and any point guard but kobe and fisher sounds better cus kobe and nash have 0 kobe and gary have 0 hahaha

OceanSpray
08-22-2013, 04:06 PM
kobe and any point guard but kobe and fisher sounds better cus kobe and nash have 0 kobe and gary have 0 hahaha

Ohhh that makes a lot of sense. I guess that means robert horry>larry bird then

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-22-2013, 04:33 PM
funny how both players saw a significant drop in their stats the year they started playing with kobe. kobe just isn't a team player. why do people keep trying to dispute that in this thread?

You mean when they were 40 years old:facepalm: You're the worst troll ever, and a fail one at that. Are you going to rat on me now like you usually do?

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-22-2013, 04:35 PM
agreed. I just don't think a great PG would benefit a ton from the triangle, though I am sure Tex and co would have made some adjustments if a wizard like Nash was drafted there.

:cheers: Now before things get weird let's go back to being enemies :p

OceanSpray
08-22-2013, 04:36 PM
You mean when they were 40 years old:facepalm: You're the worst troll ever, and a fail one at that. Are you going to rat on me now like you usually do?

Nash was 39 in Phoenix and put up 12/11... What are you trying to say?

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-22-2013, 04:43 PM
Nash was 39 in Phoenix and put up 12/11... What are you trying to say?

Nash was a big part of the offense, and was hurt all year with Kobe. Kobe gave him the keys to the team and couldn't perform due to health and age. Anything else you'd like to know youngster?

Tony_Starks
08-22-2013, 04:44 PM
You mean when they were 40 years old:facepalm: You're the worst troll ever, and a fail one at that. Are you going to rat on me now like you usually do?

You know he can't talk in a Kobe thread without randomly hating. Comparing old damn near retired Nash and GP to their old selves just to hate is beyond trolling....

I'm sure Kobe wouldve made Jason Kidd or Jamaal Tinsley look bad last year too. Lol

tr3ymill3r
08-22-2013, 04:54 PM
Just imagine, GP, Kobe, Malone and Shaq all on the Lakers...oh never mind.

OceanSpray
08-22-2013, 06:53 PM
Nash was a big part of the offense, and was hurt all year with Kobe. Kobe gave him the keys to the team and couldn't perform due to health and age. Anything else you'd like to know youngster?

So that one year of age is the reason Nash can't perform, okay. Let's be honest, Nash was forced to play in a system that was built for Kobe. It didn't work and now Nash is deemed useless. He's old but your passing skills are the last to deteriorate. LAL doesn't need a PG. They need defenders and three point shooters.

el hidalgo
08-22-2013, 06:55 PM
You mean when they were 40 years old:facepalm: You're the worst troll ever, and a fail one at that. Are you going to rat on me now like you usually do?

Why were their seasons before joining kobe significantly better? They both saw MAJOR dropoffs in production. It's no coincidence. Kobe makes players around him worse.

Tony_Starks
08-22-2013, 07:26 PM
Why were their seasons before joining kobe significantly better? They both saw MAJOR dropoffs in production. It's no coincidence. Kobe makes players around him worse.

Yeah just like he did with Pau Gasol. Lol. Give it a rest dude, you stalk Kobe like a bitter ex girlfriend....

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-22-2013, 07:38 PM
Why were their seasons before joining kobe significantly better? They both saw MAJOR dropoffs in production. It's no coincidence. Kobe makes players around him worse.

Because they were 40. Go look at Paytons stats after Kobe. Your trolling is beyond stupid, you just say things to get a rise out of people. Name me some player that Kobe made worse.

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-22-2013, 07:39 PM
Yeah just like he did with Pau Gasol. Lol. Give it a rest dude, you stalk Kobe like a bitter ex girlfriend....

HAHA true.

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-22-2013, 07:40 PM
So that one year of age is the reason Nash can't perform, okay. Let's be honest, Nash was forced to play in a system that was built for Kobe. It didn't work and now Nash is deemed useless. He's old but your passing skills are the last to deteriorate. LAL doesn't need a PG. They need defenders and three point shooters.

He was injured all year dude. His passing and decision making this year were terrible.

OceanSpray
08-23-2013, 01:26 AM
He was injured all year dude. His passing and decision making this year were terrible.

Because he was playing under a crappy system with a coach who sucks so bad. He kept feeding it to Dwight and Kobe because Nash is just a nice guy and that hindered his game.

Trueblue2
08-23-2013, 02:15 AM
Nash and bryant in the triangle would be deadly, nash is so known for his passing that his 3pt shooting gets overlooked. But i still would take gp and kobe in their primes because they were both so great at defense that theyd be a great perimeter defensive duo.

RaiderLakersA's
08-23-2013, 03:46 PM
The Glove and Mamba. Getting superb, upper echelon defense and offense from both of your starting guards is a head coach's wet dream.

Let's go one better: The Glove & The Black Mamba vs. Nash-ty & T-Mac. Everyone healthy and in their prime. Who wins?

KnicksorBust
08-23-2013, 04:02 PM
Huh? are you high? how old are you? tell the truth....you know which gary payton we're talking about here?

:laugh: Do you have something valuable that I can actually respond to?


Two lockdown defenders in Kobe/GP? Nash is the better player but Kobe/GP backcourt would be disturbing.

Two average efficient scorers? That wouldn't be disturbing. Not only does Nash raise the efficiency of the team as a whole by being one of the best shooters of all-time but he would get Kobe so many more easy baskets than Payton could make up for on defense.


superior as in he played in a system where he dominates the ball and they take a shot every 8 seconds?

hes better, but not enough to offset the defense

You act like him dominating the ball was a bad thing. The Suns were consistently one of the best teams and one of the most high powered offenses in NBA History.

Heatcheck
08-23-2013, 04:16 PM
A) :laugh: Do you have something valuable that I can actually respond to?



B)Two average efficient scorers? That wouldn't be disturbing. Not only does Nash raise the efficiency of the team as a whole by being one of the best shooters of all-time but he would get Kobe so many more easy baskets than Payton could make up for on defense.



C)You act like him dominating the ball was a bad thing. The Suns were consistently one of the best teams and one of the most high powered offenses in NBA History.

A) I did...and you came back by adding basketball IQ to your little formula as if Payton wasnt known for being a floor general and Nashs IQ was head and shoulders above him and made the difference. which is absurd.

B and C) I didnt say it was bad, it just means he has a hand in every play hence the numbers. Nash was an average efficient scorer until he got to Phoenix, pretty much average everything including his assists numbers. had he not gone to Phoenix and played in D'antoni's Hurry Up and Shoot system, doubtful we even mention Nash right now.

KingstonHawke
08-23-2013, 04:26 PM
Kobe wouldn't use a good PG, he's an isolation scorer and get's most of his points playing with the ball. To answer the question you have to consider that because of Kobe Nash's skills aren't being used (cause there's only one ball on the floor) so I have to take GP because he's a better defender.

I agree with your logic up until the conclusion. Nash being a better shooter than GP makes it a lot harder to double team Kobe, and since he's going to be talking all the shots, you want to do what benefits his ability to score.

Yes, you'd give up a lot on defense. But you could possibly hide Nash on defense by putting Kobe on the better guard, and getting some shot blockers.

Even though Nash is past his prime, I still think if they were coached better, and healthier, they'd of made a run. Howard would make up for a lot of what you lose by having Nash on the floor.

Hawkeye15
08-23-2013, 05:01 PM
superior as in he played in a system where he dominates the ball and they take a shot every 8 seconds?

hes better, but not enough to offset the defense

It may just be enough to offset the defense honestly. While I think the answer is Payton because Kobe will limit any PG's usage, especially if they are still in the triangle, Nash has more impact than Payton did.

And the 8 second deal doesn't work if you don't have the efficient players to do it.

Hawkeye15
08-23-2013, 05:02 PM
Nash was 39 in Phoenix and put up 12/11... What are you trying to say?

Nash also got hurt in the preseason.

Heatcheck
08-23-2013, 05:06 PM
It may just be enough to offset the defense honestly. While I think the answer is Payton because Kobe will limit any PG's usage, especially if they are still in the triangle, Nash has more impact than Payton did.

And the 8 second deal doesn't work if you don't have the efficient players to do it.


exactly, players, meaning a big part of this offense is the efficiency and offensive versatility of the players around him, his % shot up, why? because anyone on the floor is a threat at anytime, Nash, is a beneficiary of this. All im saying is, that Nash without that system, is Nash in Dallas, a VERY good player, but not Gary Payton, and like i said, if he leaves dallas and ends up in another situation other than the one he had in phoenix, he more than likely wouldnt be in this debate.

Let me also say this, Payton shouldered tha load on a very good Seattle team. he was his teams main scoring threat, ball handler and distributor, their best perimeter defender, and go to guy at the end of the game.

KnicksorBust
08-23-2013, 05:14 PM
A) I did...and you came back by adding basketball IQ to your little formula as if Payton wasnt known for being a floor general and Nashs IQ was head and shoulders above him and made the difference. which is absurd.

B and C) I didnt say it was bad, it just means he has a hand in every play hence the numbers. Nash was an average efficient scorer until he got to Phoenix, pretty much average everything including his assists numbers. had he not gone to Phoenix and played in D'antoni's Hurry Up and Shoot system, doubtful we even mention Nash right now.

See here's the problem that I run into with you. You tell me that Nash was an "average efficient scorer" until he got to Phoenix. You go on to say his assist numbers were "pretty much average" as well. This is just flat out wrong. He had multiple seasons in Dallas as top 10 player in assists per game, assist %, offensive rating, offensive win shares, efg%, and ts%. He had a full 5 year run in Dallas from 2000-2004 where he was an elite efficiency player.

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-23-2013, 05:15 PM
Because he was playing under a crappy system with a coach who sucks so bad. He kept feeding it to Dwight and Kobe because Nash is just a nice guy and that hindered his game.

Nash had his best season with that coach and system...

Hawkeye15
08-23-2013, 05:26 PM
exactly, players, meaning a big part of this offense is the efficiency and offensive versatility of the players around him, his % shot up, why? because anyone on the floor is a threat at anytime, Nash, is a beneficiary of this. All im saying is, that Nash without that system, is Nash in Dallas, a VERY good player, but not Gary Payton, and like i said, if he leaves dallas and ends up in another situation other than the one he had in phoenix, he more than likely wouldnt be in this debate.

Let me also say this, Payton shouldered tha load on a very good Seattle team. he was his teams main scoring threat, ball handler and distributor, their best perimeter defender, and go to guy at the end of the game.

Nash's peak happened to come with Phx. He was the culprit of their efficiency, not the benefactor.

You are overrating Payton. Kemp had more statistical impact in their finals run year and their 63 win year, the year prior Detlef, Payton, and Kemp all had a PER just over 20, with Detlef with the most win shares and ridiculous offensive rating. Basically, don't pretend that Payton shouldered the load, when he had his help in equals throughout the Sonics rise to the elite. His defense was awesome, but Nash's offense is FAR better than Payton's, lets be real.

KnicksorBust
08-23-2013, 05:29 PM
Sounds like someone is slowly talking themselves into Nash...

Hawkeye15
08-23-2013, 05:35 PM
Sounds like someone is slowly talking themselves into Nash...

possibly. I just have reservations for two reasons:

Kobe's usage
The triangle

But sure, if one of those changes, I am leaning Nash.

OceanSpray
08-23-2013, 06:00 PM
:laugh: Do you have something valuable that I can actually respond to?



Two average efficient scorers? That wouldn't be disturbing. Not only does Nash raise the efficiency of the team as a whole by being one of the best shooters of all-time but he would get Kobe so many more easy baskets than Payton could make up for on defense.



You act like him dominating the ball was a bad thing. The Suns were consistently one of the best teams and one of the most high powered offenses in NBA History.

You're implying that one of the greatest scorers can't get his own shot? Geez, you're not very smart. Easy or not, Kobe could get his. A backcourt defender like GP would cause issues for any PG. Nash is a better offensive player but if you got Kobe on your team, I don't think you'll need someone like Nash.

KnicksorBust
08-23-2013, 10:48 PM
You're implying that one of the greatest scorers can't get his own shot? Geez, you're not very smart. Easy or not, Kobe could get his. A backcourt defender like GP would cause issues for any PG. Nash is a better offensive player but if you got Kobe on your team, I don't think you'll need someone like Nash.

"he (Nash) would get Kobe so many more easy baskets than Payton..."

The only thing I'm implying is that is a good thing. :) I feel like over the years Kobe has become perceived as simply a half-court player who iso's and posts up. People these days rarely mention how phenomenal of an athlete Kobe was at his peak. It's hard to imagine a better partner to run in transition with Steve Nash than someone like Kobe Bryant whose combination of ball-handling skills/bball iq/athleticism places him are among the greatest of all-time. Plus you seem to be ignoring the fact that Nash spaces the floor for Kobe infinitely more than Payton ever could and gives him a much wider lane to penetrate.

Heatcheck
08-24-2013, 11:50 AM
Nash's peak happened to come with Phx. He was the culprit of their efficiency, not the benefactor.

You are overrating Payton. Kemp had more statistical impact in their finals run year and their 63 win year, the year prior Detlef, Payton, and Kemp all had a PER just over 20, with Detlef with the most win shares and ridiculous offensive rating. Basically, don't pretend that Payton shouldered the load, when he had his help in equals throughout the Sonics rise to the elite. His defense was awesome, but Nash's offense is FAR better than Payton's, lets be real.

it goes both ways, nash benefited from that system as much as anyone, not to say he didnt play his role perfectly or that he wasnt the best man for the job, but the spike in everything at age 30 isnt because he put extra time in the gym, the system brought the best out of him and its not a common one throughout the nba either. he wasnt the same player in Dallas even though he had better scorers in Dirk and a finley. i agree hes better offensively, but not FAR better.

the year before the title run is the year before the title run, regardless, Payton ran the show he was playing 40 a night. and Kemp having a bigger stat impact is arguable, when your pg is giving you 20 and 8 basically on 47% shooting. plus hes not only playing staunch perimeter D hes forcing turnovers (in this case we know his 2.9 steals per game ARE a result of being a good defender, and not gambling all the time like a certain Mario whose last name is Chalmers).

Heatcheck
08-24-2013, 12:35 PM
See here's the problem that I run into with you. You tell me that Nash was an "average efficient scorer" until he got to Phoenix. You go on to say his assist numbers were "pretty much average" as well. This is just flat out wrong. He had multiple seasons in Dallas as top 10 player in assists per game, assist %, offensive rating, offensive win shares, efg%, and ts%. He had a full 5 year run in Dallas from 2000-2004 where he was an elite efficiency player.

now your cherry picking advanced stats, which half are ******** anyway, starting with win shares. you add this and multiply that and divide it by the league average, and come up with a number. you cant deny the impact of that move on his level of play. he was very good in Dallas, not MVP worthy like he was for a couple years in Phoenix after 30.

Chronz
08-24-2013, 12:43 PM
it goes both ways, nash benefited from that system as much as anyone, not to say he didnt play his role perfectly or that he wasnt the best man for the job, but the spike in everything at age 30 isnt because he put extra time in the gym, the system brought the best out of him and its not a common one throughout the nba either. he wasnt the same player in Dallas even though he had better scorers in Dirk and a finley. i agree hes better offensively, but not FAR better.
Sounds like you're exaggerating, or relying on outdated metrics when you mention the spike in everything as if it amounts to an absurd difference in production. Nash arguably had a better statistical season in Dallas than he did his first year in PHX.

And having better scorers doesn't mean anything on its own. Adding more ball handlers and scorers are conducive to all stats. Like the year Cuban added Antawn and Antoine, Nash saw his production decline from the year prior because of those players taking away his touches. When he got to PHX, the ball was all his and he was surrounded by players who needed his presence far more than guys like Dirk, Finley, Antoine.

Chronz
08-24-2013, 12:44 PM
I swear, looking back now, Nash in Dallas was so underrated because of his stint in Phx being so overrated.

Chronz
08-24-2013, 12:47 PM
now your cherry picking advanced stats, which half are ******** anyway, starting with win shares. you add this and multiply that and divide it by the league average, and come up with a number. you cant deny the impact of that move on his level of play. he was very good in Dallas, not MVP worthy like he was for a couple years in Phoenix after 30.
Thats the thing, can you plz give us a reason to believe your interpretation of statistical worth above actual statisticians? He was getting better in PHX but to act like its a profound difference is to ignore objective evidence.

TheNumber37
08-24-2013, 12:54 PM
Nash Can't DEFEND and Payton won DPOY as a guard.. so yeah.

Heatcheck
08-24-2013, 01:09 PM
Sounds like you're exaggerating, or relying on outdated metrics when you mention the spike in everything A)as if it amounts to an absurd difference in production. Nash arguably had a better statistical season in Dallas than he did his first year in PHX.

And having better scorers doesn't mean anything on its own. Adding more ball handlers and scorers are conducive to all stats. B)Like the year Cuban added Antawn and Antoine, Nash saw his production decline from the year prior because of those players taking away his touches. When he got to PHX, the ball was all his and he was surrounded by players who needed his presence far more than guys like Dirk, Finley, Antoine.

A) all his numbers went up from the year before when he went to phoenix
B) go ask jj barea the importance of elite offensive wings that stretch the floor out, especially players like him and nash that love to drive. that was a case of the amount of scorers as opposed to the quality.

and yes, it was a spike, theres a significant difference between 47-48%fg and 51-52% fg, theres a significant difference between 7 apg and 11apg, BIG difference.

Chronz
08-24-2013, 01:17 PM
A) all his numbers went up from the year before when he went to phoenix
B) go ask jj barea the importance of elite offensive wings that stretch the floor out, especially players like him and nash that love to drive. that was a case of the amount of scorers as opposed to the quality.

and yes, it was a spike, theres a significant difference between 47-48%fg and 51-52% fg, theres a significant difference between 7 apg and 11apg, BIG difference.
You didn't address any of the points I made and again, I dont buy your statistical analysis above actual statisticians. You have yet to give me a reason to.

What does Barea have to do with the fact that Nash's numbers declined when Cuban added those players?

Heatcheck
08-24-2013, 01:20 PM
Thats the thing, can you plz give us a reason to believe your interpretation of statistical worth above actual statisticians? He was getting better in PHX but to act like its a profound difference is to ignore objective evidence.

can YOU plz give ME a reason to believe their interpretation of statistical worth over my own? and being a statistician only garauntees theyre good with numbers, not evaluating basketball talent.

Heatcheck
08-24-2013, 01:25 PM
You didn't address any of the points I made and again, I dont buy your statistical analysis above actual statisticians. You have yet to give me a reason to.

What does Barea have to do with the fact that Nash's numbers declined when Cuban added those players?

Barrea has nothing to do with that. he just looks like two different players when he played for the mavs with those guys stretching the floor, as opposed to say with the PR national team where they dont have to respect them as much.
and i honestly dont know why you brought those two up. they brought in two scorers, one a complete ball hog and his points dropped, what a shock, his assists went up as well, what a shock. i dont know what you were getting at anyway, production isnt limited to how many points you score.

He goes to phoenix, with less polished players, and his assists go up and he's scoring the same or more on less shots

ManningToTyree
08-24-2013, 01:30 PM
Gimme the glove

Chronz
08-24-2013, 01:43 PM
can YOU plz give ME a reason to believe their interpretation of statistical worth over my own?
LMFAO are you seriously asking me that, perhaps its because they're statisticians and you're someone Ive never met or heard about.....


and being a statistician only garauntees theyre good with numbers, not evaluating basketball talent.
Good thing we are discussing statistical worth as it relates to basketball. You know..... the things these guys do for a living ....

Chronz
08-24-2013, 01:46 PM
Barrea has nothing to do with that.
You're just confusing me now.


he just looks like two different players when he played for the mavs with those guys stretching the floor, as opposed to say with the PR national team where they dont have to respect them as much.
Not seeing the point you're trying to make, how did Carlos Arroyo look? What does this have to do with Nash?


and i honestly dont know why you brought those two up.
Because they played in Dallas WITH Nash and contributed to his statistical decline despite being "scorers".


they brought in two scorers, one a complete ball hog and his points dropped, what a shock,
Yea but before you said this:

he wasnt the same player in Dallas even though he had better scorers in Dirk and a finley.

So are scorers good for ones statistical worth or arent they? If you've just now arrived to the conclusion that the game shouldn't be boiled up so simply then congrats. We can finally agree.


his assists went up as well, what a shock. i dont know what you were getting at anyway, production isnt limited to how many points you score.
Obviously its not limited to that, thats the point here, its why if you look at the stats that actually do attempt to quantify everything you end up with a less productive Nash because of those 2 scorers. Its not a giant difference, just like it wasn't in PHX.


He goes to phoenix, with less polished players, and his assists go up and he's scoring the same or more on less shots
Players who NEED him more than the players in Dallas yes. And again, the overall difference in statistical worth was minuscule... that is ... if you follow the line of thinking that ACTUAL statisticians do.

Still waiting for why your methodology trumps established standards

Heatcheck
08-24-2013, 02:14 PM
the point of barrea was that when he plays in PR, no one gives a damn about the wings because they arent good perimeter scorers, so the paint, where players like JJ and Nash regularly attacked is alot more congested, and he doesnt look as good. you know Barrea had a great individual postseason on a title team and then took a bigger contract at a less talented team. Arroyo has never been as signicifcant to a title contender so dont be a smart ***.

you keep saying the added to his statistical decline when only ONE stat went down and like i said it was offset by his assist numbers going up.
Learn English, in one, im talking about his overall play and the other i specifically said his points went down. again your being a smart ***, you know damn well that if your a pg whose assist numbers are more important than his ppg output (especially you have better scoring options), obviously having better scorers is going to help your stats, if your a scorer yourself, it just might have an adverse affect.

by "production isnt limited to how many points you score" i meant other stats like assists rebound fg%, not all this ******** statisticians made up to have a place in the sports world

And lastly I AM THE ONE WHO USES ESTABLISHED STANDARDS, fg%, attempts, assists. these are stats that have established standards. Advanced stats have established standards because the people that invented them say so, and only retards like Morey and holligner pay attention to them in the real world which is why Houston won the 2 chips because Jordan wasnt there and havent done **** since, and Memphis traded Rudy Gay.

Heatcheck
08-24-2013, 02:18 PM
LMFAO are you seriously asking me that, perhaps its because they're statisticians and you're someone Ive never met or heard about.....

So I should listen to them because you never met me before?

Good thing we are discussing statistical worth as it relates to basketball. You know..... the things these guys do for a living ....

thats the key here, they know numbers, but do they know how to properly relate it to basketball?

thephoenixson28
08-24-2013, 02:31 PM
If it was 2 on 2 Gp and Bryant but overall team. Nash and Bryant

Chronz
08-24-2013, 06:28 PM
thats the key here, they know numbers, but do they know how to properly relate it to basketball?
Are you working for an NBA team? Thats the key here. You're both attempting to dissect the game at an intellectual level, the only difference is I choose lend credence to the actual statisticians while you want me to take your unsubstantiated opinion of statistical prowess.
Why would any logical person believe the guy who doesn't work in the field over someone who does? Im not saying its unthinkable for you to be worthy of that respect, I just wish you would give me a reason to.

Chronz
08-24-2013, 06:36 PM
the point of barrea was that when he plays in PR, no one gives a damn about the wings because they arent good perimeter scorers, so the paint, where players like JJ and Nash regularly attacked is alot more congested, and he doesnt look as good. you know Barrea had a great individual postseason on a title team and then took a bigger contract at a less talented team.
Yes I do know that. Still not seeing what you're trying to say with regards to Nash and statistical trends. Scorers do not always help your game.


Arroyo has never been as signicifcant to a title contender so dont be a smart ***.
But he did play on that PR national team, and he also looked alot better on that squad than he did in most squads with the NBA. Why? Maybe because his role is different, the game he plays is different, all I know is that its more than just 1 reason.


you keep saying the added to his statistical decline when only ONE stat went down and like i said it was offset by his assist numbers going up.
According to various metrics that actually attempt to quantify statistical prowess, it wasn't offset by it. Again, the difference was minute.



Learn English, in one, im talking about his overall play and the other i specifically said his points went down. again your being a smart ***, you know damn well that if your a pg whose assist numbers are more important than his ppg output (especially you have better scoring options), obviously having better scorers is going to help your stats, if your a scorer yourself, it just might have an adverse affect.
Cool story bro but I dont live life by extreme rules, particularly in the face of zero supporting evidence.


by "production isnt limited to how many points you score" i meant other stats like assists rebound fg%, not all this ******** statisticians made up to have a place in the sports world
Can you explain how statisticians can force NBA teams to find value in their studies? And again, why would I trust your opinion of stats over actual statisticians? Why cant you find a place in the sports world?


And lastly I AM THE ONE WHO USES ESTABLISHED STANDARDS, fg%, attempts, assists. these are stats that have established standards.
No they dont, they are descriptor stats that dont tell you the value in relation to each other.



Advanced stats have established standards because the people that invented them say so, and only retards like Morey and holligner pay attention to them in the real world which is why Houston won the 2 chips because Jordan wasnt there and havent done **** since, and Memphis traded Rudy Gay.
Because they say so? LMFAO sounds like you dont know jack about APBR. Not sure what you were trying to prove by mentioning Hollinger and Morey. Do you really think those are the only guys?

U R further cementing my belief that you're not to be taken seriously when it comes to statistics.

Heatcheck
08-25-2013, 12:36 PM
Yes I do know that. Still not seeing what you're trying to say with regards to Nash and statistical trends. Scorers do not always help your game.


But he did play on that PR national team, and he also looked alot better on that squad than he did in most squads with the NBA. Why? Maybe because his role is different, the game he plays is different, all I know is that its more than just 1 reason.



According to various metrics that actually attempt to quantify statistical prowess, it wasn't offset by it. Again, the difference was minute.



Cool story bro but I dont live life by extreme rules, particularly in the face of zero supporting evidence.


Can you explain how statisticians can force NBA teams to find value in their studies? And again, why would I trust your opinion of stats over actual statisticians? Why cant you find a place in the sports world?


No they dont, they are descriptor stats that dont tell you the value in relation to each other.



Because they say so? LMFAO sounds like you dont know jack about APBR. Not sure what you were trying to prove by mentioning Hollinger and Morey. Do you really think those are the only guys?

U R further cementing my belief that you're not to be taken seriously when it comes to statistics.


Advanced stats are garbage, i base my opinions on my way of thinking about stats and I find im right alot more than im wrong when predicting outcomes. thats all there is too it. i honestly have no desire for you to think as i do nor change your way of viewing stats. you always feel i havent explained myself or touched the points you laid out, so its obvious your on a whole nother level with regards to understanding the game of basketball. so you win lil buddy, your right, he was the same player in PHO as in DAL, his numbers barely went up and its obvious the system wasnt the perfect fit for him and raised his game, and if he continued in dallas his career wouldve been about the same. theres barely any difference between 7 apg an 11apg. i guess maybe if his fg% wouldve went up from 48 to 56 instead of 51 (as a pg) it would be saying something, but what pg cant score in the upper teens while shooting 50% right?

OceanSpray
08-26-2013, 01:38 AM
"he (Nash) would get Kobe so many more easy baskets than Payton..."

The only thing I'm implying is that is a good thing. :) I feel like over the years Kobe has become perceived as simply a half-court player who iso's and posts up. People these days rarely mention how phenomenal of an athlete Kobe was at his peak. It's hard to imagine a better partner to run in transition with Steve Nash than someone like Kobe Bryant whose combination of ball-handling skills/bball iq/athleticism places him are among the greatest of all-time. Plus you seem to be ignoring the fact that Nash spaces the floor for Kobe infinitely more than Payton ever could and gives him a much wider lane to penetrate.

And Payton would be freeing Kobe up from having to defend and cover for Nash's mishaps. Sorry, but Nash is great offensively, horrible on the defensive end. He's a great shooter and playmaker, but that doesn't make up for Payton's insane defense.

Chronz
08-26-2013, 11:24 AM
Advanced stats are garbage, i base my opinions on my way of thinking about stats and I find im right alot more than im wrong when predicting outcomes. thats all there is too it.
Yea sorry, when it comes to the value of stats, Ill trust ACTUAL statisticians with models that have some sort of research to them. Sorry but "thats all there is too (sic) it" doesn't cut it for me, if you were as succesfull as you think you are, you would be working for the NBA and I would be referencing your work instead of questioning it entirely.

Continue believing what you want, just dont take offense when people side with the experts over your unsubstantiated theories.

Chronz
08-26-2013, 11:28 AM
If it was 2 on 2 Gp and Bryant but overall team. Nash and Bryant

Im leaning in this direction. PG defense isn't as impactful as people want to make it seem, and Nash was a heady team defender in his prime (always taking charges and whatnot), but its enough of a disparity to make it a question. My thing is that Nash can acclimate to anyone, I dont get the feeling that GP and Kobe would like to share not only the ball, but the post as well.

strokeman
08-26-2013, 11:44 AM
GP and Kobe = Nasty Defense

KingPosey
08-26-2013, 11:48 AM
Payton is criminally overlooked. People don't realize he is on the very short list of best PGs of all time.

KnicksorBust
08-26-2013, 12:27 PM
And Payton would be freeing Kobe up from having to defend and cover for Nash's mishaps. Sorry, but Nash is great offensively, horrible on the defensive end. He's a great shooter and playmaker, but that doesn't make up for Payton's insane defense.

Maybe at the High School level you'd have a guards cheating over substantially to cover but the pro game has such better spacing and shooting that really it'd be the center that'd have to protect Nash. I don't really see the defensive benefit for Kobe being substantially better with Payton. Their TEAM defensive would definitely improve and it would put less pressure on the interior for help defense but Kobe's defense wouldn't be drastically impacted. HOWEVER, offensively Kobe's game would have taken a notch higher. Wade and LeBron are the perfect examples of this.

When were Dwyane Wade's 3 highest seasons of FG%? That would be 2011, 2012, and 2013. The three seasons that LeBron has been in Miami. Including a CAREER HIGH 52% from the field last season despite the fact that the whispers of his decline are getting louder.

When were LeBron James's 3 highest seasons of FG%? That would be 2011, 2012, and 2013. The three seasons that he has played with Wade in Miami. Including a CAREER HIGH 57% from the field last season.

LeBron's usage dropped to his lowest percentage since the 2005 season! Not only would Nash be a significant upgrade efficiency from Payton but it stands to reason that Kobe's efficiency would significantly increase as well due to less defensive attention on the perimeter and countless easy baskets (transition, pick and roll/pop, backdoor cuts, drive and kick looks) by having one of the best distributing point guards of all-time.

Heatcheck
08-26-2013, 04:23 PM
Yea sorry, when it comes to the value of stats, Ill trust ACTUAL statisticians with models that have some sort of research to them. Sorry but "thats all there is too (sic) it" doesn't cut it for me, if you were as succesfull as you think you are, you would be working for the NBA and I would be referencing your work instead of questioning it entirely.

Continue believing what you want, just dont take offense when people side with the experts over your unsubstantiated theories.

Your right, ill try to control my rage in the future, and not talk about anything i dont get paid for.

Chronz
08-26-2013, 06:46 PM
Your right, ill try to control my rage in the future, and not talk about anything i dont get paid for.
Sarcasm noted, if thats all you got out of my post then just know I never sensed any rage from you whatsoever.

OceanSpray
08-29-2013, 03:09 PM
Maybe at the High School level you'd have a guards cheating over substantially to cover but the pro game has such better spacing and shooting that really it'd be the center that'd have to protect Nash. I don't really see the defensive benefit for Kobe being substantially better with Payton. Their TEAM defensive would definitely improve and it would put less pressure on the interior for help defense but Kobe's defense wouldn't be drastically impacted. HOWEVER, offensively Kobe's game would have taken a notch higher. Wade and LeBron are the perfect examples of this.

When were Dwyane Wade's 3 highest seasons of FG%? That would be 2011, 2012, and 2013. The three seasons that LeBron has been in Miami. Including a CAREER HIGH 52% from the field last season despite the fact that the whispers of his decline are getting louder.

When were LeBron James's 3 highest seasons of FG%? That would be 2011, 2012, and 2013. The three seasons that he has played with Wade in Miami. Including a CAREER HIGH 57% from the field last season.

LeBron's usage dropped to his lowest percentage since the 2005 season! Not only would Nash be a significant upgrade efficiency from Payton but it stands to reason that Kobe's efficiency would significantly increase as well due to less defensive attention on the perimeter and countless easy baskets (transition, pick and roll/pop, backdoor cuts, drive and kick looks) by having one of the best distributing point guards of all-time.

Nash and Kobe won't work because Kobe won't give him the ball to ultimately dominate. Whereas Payton can play off ball and be useful because of his defense. Thanks, have a good day.

todu82
08-29-2013, 03:28 PM
Payton and Kobe.