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Mile High Champ
08-19-2013, 02:04 PM
Hey guys, It is that time of year again! Once again we kick of the PSD NBA Off-Season Player Rankings. This is the 6th year I have done this on PSD and it always brings some great discussion and debate. Please keep things civil and discuss who you feel is most fitting and deserving of being voted in each poll.

A lot has changed since last season. Lebron James and the Miami Heat are back to back NBA champions after an exciting 7 game series win over the Spurs. Let start the discussion since lots has changed since the start of last season. Please TRY AND VOTE FOR THE BEST PLAYER AND DON'T BE A HOMER. I will leave the poll open for one day and than we can carry on to the next best player at that position. I will add more players after each round. I have also included the results of those last 5 years so everyone can see how much things have changed...Enjoy.

Due to some people complaining that the rule was not written for the PG poll; in order to be eligible for these rankings, players must of played in 10 or more games last season. Thank you.


REMEMBER this is based on who is the best player, not the player who has the potential to be the best


MHC TOP 16 PF COMPARISON (Advanced Statistics)



Player Season Age G MP PER TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48

Pau Gasol 2012-13 32 49 1655 16.7 .512 .473 7.6 20.1 14.0 19.9 0.7 2.7 13.7 20.5 107 106 2.0 1.7 3.7 .107
Ersan Ilyasova 2012-13 25 73 2012 18.3 .552 .521 7.9 20.3 13.9 9.6 1.7 1.3 7.9 20.5 114 104 4.1 2.5 6.7 .159
Kevin Garnett 2012-13 36 68 2022 19.2 .535 .498 4.5 25.8 15.5 14.4 2.0 2.4 10.5 24.5 104 99 1.8 3.8 5.6 .133
Serge Ibaka 2012-13 23 80 2486 19.4 .612 .586 11.1 17.0 14.2 2.8 0.6 7.4 12.7 18.1 117 101 5.3 4.1 9.4 .181
David Lee 2012-13 29 79 2907 19.2 .561 .519 8.5 24.5 16.8 16.5 1.2 0.6 13.7 23.2 110 104 5.4 3.7 9.1 .150
Zach Randolph 2012-13 31 76 2607 17.9 .506 .461 13.8 25.1 19.3 7.3 1.3 1.0 11.5 23.1 106 99 3.2 4.7 7.9 .145
Josh Smith 2012-13 27 76 2683 17.7 .501 .491 5.8 21.3 13.6 20.9 1.8 3.9 14.6 26.7 97 101 -0.3 4.5 4.2 .075
David West 2012-13 32 73 2435 20.1 .545 .500 6.8 18.8 12.9 16.8 1.6 2.1 12.0 24.4 110 99 4.4 4.7 9.1 .179
Ryan Anderson 2012-13 24 81 2503 18.1 .548 .519 8.9 15.9 12.4 6.9 0.9 1.0 7.5 24.0 114 112 5.7 0.8 6.5 .125
Carlos Boozer 2012-13 31 79 2546 17.1 .510 .477 7.8 27.2 17.4 13.4 1.4 0.8 12.3 25.8 101 100 1.4 4.3 5.7 .108
Anthony Davis 2012-13 19 64 1846 21.7 .559 .516 10.5 23.5 16.8 6.1 2.2 5.1 10.3 21.8 113 104 3.7 2.4 6.1 .159
Kenneth Faried 2012-13 23 80 2248 18.5 .573 .552 13.2 23.2 18.3 5.1 1.8 2.9 12.3 17.7 116 102 4.5 3.4 7.8 .167
Paul Millsap 2012-13 27 78 2375 19.8 .550 .498 8.6 18.8 13.7 14.5 2.3 2.7 11.8 22.4 112 104 4.8 2.9 7.6 .154
Tiago Splitter 2012-13 28 81 1997 18.7 .609 .560 8.8 20.3 14.9 10.0 1.6 2.3 12.7 18.2 118 100 4.7 3.5 8.2 .197
A. Stoudemire 2012-13 30 29 682 22.1 .637 .577 10.0 15.1 12.4 3.6 0.8 2.7 13.4 25.7 118 108 2.1 0.6 2.7 .191





2013 Off-Season PSD PF Rankings

1) Kevin Love
2) Blake Griffin
3) Dirk Nowitzki
4) LaMarcus Aldridge
5)
6)
7)
8)
9)
10)


2012 Off-Season PSD PF Rankings

1) Kevin Love
2) Dirk Nowitzki
3) LaMarcus Aldridge
4) Chris Bosh
5) Pau Gasol
6) Blake Griffin
7) Josh Smith
8) Zach Randolph
9) Amare Stoudemire
10) Paul Millsap

2011 Off-Season PF Rankings

1) Dirk Nowitzki
2) Amare Stoudemire
3) Pau Gasol
4) Zach Randolph
5) Chris Bosh
6) LaMarcus Aldridge
7) Kevin Love
8) Blake Griffin
9) Kevin Garnett
10) Josh Smith

2010 Off-Season PF Rankings

1) Pau Gasol
2) Dirk Nowitzki
3) Tim Duncan
4) Chris Bosh
5) Amare Stoudemire
6) Carlos Boozer
7) Kevin Garnett
8) Josh Smith
9) David Lee
10) Zach Randolph

2009 Off-Season PF Rankings

1) Tim Duncan
2) Kevin Garnett
3) Dirk Nowitzki
4) Chris Bosh
5) Amare Stoudemire
6) Pau Gasol
7) Carlos Boozer
8) Antawn Jamison
9) Rashard Lewis
10) David West

2008 Off-Season PF rankings

1) Tim Duncan
2) Kevin Garnett
3) Amare Stoudemire
4) Chris Bosh
5) Dirk Nowitzki
6) Elton Brand
7) Carlos Boozer
8) Pau Gasol
9) Antawn Jamison
10) David West

Mile High Champ
08-19-2013, 02:07 PM
Things now get interesting as their is no favorite here in my opinion.

NYKnickFanatic
08-19-2013, 02:08 PM
It was between Lee and Randolph for me, but I went with Lee.

Mile High Champ
08-19-2013, 02:10 PM
David West certainly should be in the conversation with Lee, Ibaka, Gasol and ZBO. I really like Davis here so I went with him.

bloomis1307
08-19-2013, 02:14 PM
I like Lee here.....again.....Up next its between West KG Ibaka for me.

Kashmir13579
08-19-2013, 02:17 PM
Lets get KG off the board, then we can start talking about the Davids.

Sadds The Gr8
08-19-2013, 02:20 PM
Pau is the most talented here and I think he a bounce-back year since he'll be FORCED to play the post.

koreancabbage
08-19-2013, 02:27 PM
i like Randolph. so underrated.

SlimKid
08-19-2013, 02:30 PM
Went with ZBO - super underrated. Could make an argument for anyone here.

xxplayerxx23
08-19-2013, 02:44 PM
Went lee here

Minimal
08-19-2013, 02:44 PM
Lee, I think he clearly deserves it

JLynn943
08-19-2013, 03:19 PM
between Lee and Randolph for me, went with Randolph

Oefarmy2005
08-19-2013, 03:40 PM
Davis will be here or higher after this year - so I went with my gut and voted for him.

Jarvo
08-19-2013, 03:48 PM
Blake Griffin 2nd?? :laugh:

xxplayerxx23
08-19-2013, 04:27 PM
Blake Griffin 2nd?? :laugh:

This times 1,000

ManRam
08-19-2013, 04:48 PM
I'm probably going

5. KG
6. Davis
7. Gasol (I think after this year he'll jump up again, but he was awful last year, for whatever reason you want to blame it on)
8. Millsap
9. West
10. Lee


There are so many good PFs. Amazing depth. I fully expect you all to laugh at my #8 but I'll ride with it all the way. I'm sure everyone is going to have ridiculously different lists. Like I said in the #1 thread, this is gonna be the toughest position to get everyone to agree on.

I've made it clear that I buy into the notion that Lee is immensely detrimental on defense, hence him at 9. Leaving Ibaka, ZBo, Smoove and even one of my favorites in Ryno off the list is tough, but yeah. Stiff competition.

And ZBo is not underrated, at all. Probably quite the opposite. I mean, he was an all-star last year, despite IMO not being a top 9 PF in the West according to my rankings here.

mrblisterdundee
08-19-2013, 04:56 PM
I'm starting to think that on a list of such crappy defenders, Kevin Garnett probably should have been picked already just for being so much better at it, even at age 36. And when you look at his stats per 36 minutes, he's right up there with everyone else – and better defensively. If he can turn around Brooklyn's defense half as well as he did Boston's, then Mikhail Prokhorov made a good decision.

D-Leethal
08-19-2013, 05:01 PM
KG's defense should be the deal breaker here.

I am not a fan at all of Josh Smith, but I think he deserves more mention/votes than he has been getting. I think he is probably more impactful than David Lee.

I would probably go:

KG
Zbo
JSmoove
Ibaka
Lee
Gasol to round it out.

PF is freakin' tough though, not all THAT much separating any of these guys from 1-10.

D-Leethal
08-19-2013, 05:03 PM
I'm starting to think that on a list of such crappy defenders, Kevin Garnett probably should have been picked already just for being so much better at it, even at age 36. And when you look at his stats per 36 minutes, he's right up there with everyone else – and better defensively. If he can turn around Brooklyn's defense half as well as he did Boston's, then Mikhail Prokhorov made a good decision.

Agreed. KG's D was the deal breaker for me last round. Still the best defensive PF in the game by a relatively large margin IMO, while transforming into a lethal pick and pop sniper.

If he was younger and able to log more minutes I don't think it would even be a question, but I guess its fair to slight him for that when the others are capable of logging 35 a night.

unleashthebeast
08-19-2013, 05:04 PM
I think it still has to be KG here. I mean the guy is regressing but he STILL is an amazing player, especially on the defensive side of the ball

Bruno
08-19-2013, 05:24 PM
Pau is the most talented here and I think he a bounce-back year since he'll be FORCED to play the post.

I agree with this and I think he'll have a great year too BUT he hasn't been an impact player since the start of the 2011 post-season. Two full years and a third post season of blah from Gasol? he's gotta prove it again imo. thats too much time away from dominance to be given the benefit of the doubt, IMO.

but i do think he'll have his best season since 2011 with his rejuvenated knees, and a place in the offense that fits his skill set.

JasonJohnHorn
08-19-2013, 06:22 PM
As Abe Lincoln would say: Let it be Lee.


Of course, I had Lee at number 3.

Allphakenny1
08-19-2013, 06:39 PM
Lee is becoming one of the more underrated players here. His defense is not as bad as some have said. Man D is terrible, but help D was good this year. This is why the Warriors had one of the better defenses this year with Bogut barely playing.

xxplayerxx23
08-19-2013, 06:57 PM
Lee is becoming one of the more underrated players here. His defense is not as bad as some have said. Man D is terrible, but help D was good this year. This is why the Warriors had one of the better defenses this year with Bogut barely playing.


Lee man defense was improved not great but not as bad

JOhnnyTHaJet
08-19-2013, 07:08 PM
Randolph then Garnett.

sunsfan88
08-20-2013, 12:35 AM
Randolph then Lee THEN Garnett.

I hope Ibaka makes this list. Other than Dwight, no big man makes a bigger defensive impact than that man IMO.

tredigs
08-20-2013, 12:51 AM
Randolph then Lee THEN Garnett.

I hope Ibaka makes this list. Other than Dwight, no big man makes a bigger defensive impact than that man IMO.

Garnett, Noah, Sanders, Hibbert, M Gasol, Duncan, Asik, Bogut and Chandler off the top of my head.

His elite defensive value is limited pretty much entirely to shot blocking. I wouldn't say he has a top 25 defensive bbiq - it's gotten better, but he still constantly gets beat.

D-Leethal
08-20-2013, 09:33 AM
I think I'm going ZBo next. Top offensive gun on a WCF team heavily devoid of offensive talent. I think Lee has more weapons around him and his team still isn't as good.

birdmann5
08-20-2013, 10:03 AM
Tim Duncan must be a center now I guess, or he would already be on the list.

D-Leethal
08-20-2013, 10:23 AM
Tim Duncan must be a center now I guess, or he would already be on the list.

He would be #1.

birdmann5
08-21-2013, 12:21 AM
I agree no one passes, posts up, and plays D better than him at the PF.


Tim Duncan must be a center now I guess, or he would already be on the list.

He would be #1.

Oefarmy2005
08-21-2013, 09:52 AM
I agree no one passes, posts up, and plays D better than him at the PF.

His D is overrated. KG is a better passer and a better defender - fact.

D-Leethal
08-21-2013, 10:39 AM
I agree no one passes, posts up, and plays D better than him at the PF.

His D is overrated. KG is a better passer and a better defender - fact.

KGs not a better passer. Duncans high and low post passing is what sparks the swing passes and makes the 3 ball game thrive for them. He also is one of the best outlet passers of all time.

Direct assists shouldn't be the only judge of a persons passing. Shame hockey assists aren't tallied in the NBA.

Oefarmy2005
08-21-2013, 01:54 PM
KGs not a better passer. Duncans high and low post passing is what sparks the swing passes and makes the 3 ball game thrive for them. He also is one of the best outlet passers of all time.

Direct assists shouldn't be the only judge of a persons passing. Shame hockey assists aren't tallied in the NBA.

Except that there are no such stats and the stats that are kept, dare I say it, suggest that KG was a better passer - at least he had a higher assist ratio. It is still funny to me how winning rings makes a player so much better than another player when if you look season by season, Duncan's and KG's all around stats are so close, and KG was actually better in their prime years 26-31 or so. KG never had the supporting cast or the coaching that Duncan head, and he has definitely declined faster - it's likely the additional 2 years of NBA on those knees. Duncan was/is an incredible player, but Garnett while being very comparable all around was so much more versatile. KG in his prime could guard 2-5 legitimately and play 3-5.

tredigs
08-21-2013, 02:52 PM
His D is overrated. KG is a better passer and a better defender - fact.

Care to explain how his D is overrated? It wasn't ferocious and all-devouring in the vein of a peak Ben Wallace - and neither was Garnett's - but still with his ability to block/alter shots and either tip it to a teammate or get the rebound without fouling, he was umatched. And despite losing his lateral quickness and overall tempo to make plays in different areas on the court, he's still elite at basket protection. Just ask Randolph and Marc Gasol.

And if KG is a better passer, it's not significant. It's different as KG spent more time running the offense due to so many inept teams with weak PG's in Minnesota, but Duncan has always been all you could ask for in playmaking out of the post. Obviously if KG played his career with TP and Manu, his assist numbers drop.

But anyway, back to explaining Duncan's overrated D? KG may have more versatility defensively, but he was not better than Duncan at paint protection or currently guarding bigs.

Minimal
08-21-2013, 03:50 PM
Interesting fact. KGs career DRTG is 99, Duncans 95.

Oefarmy2005
08-21-2013, 04:21 PM
Interesting fact. KGs career DRTG is 99, Duncans 95.

I am fine with that answer, but I was talking to D-Lethal who doesn't believe that DRTG is worth a damn. I personally believe is that there is some middle ground with advanced and regular stats and considering that KG often had to guard the best player out of position, often SGs and very often SFs - DRTG may not be the best measure. I would also exclude KG's first 2 years since he came into the league 2 years younger and you want to compare apples to apples. You can easily argue either, I think they were much closer than people make it out to be considering their season numbers. Duncan was a much better player in the playoffs than KG and won more championships, but supporting cast and coaching are a pretty big part of that. On most lists, KG is at the very least 9-10 spots below Duncan all time and sometimes as many as 20+, which I believe is unfair. All that said, I don't think KG is the 5th best PF in the league today - he should be 2-4 spots down from that.

D-Leethal
08-21-2013, 04:23 PM
KGs not a better passer. Duncans high and low post passing is what sparks the swing passes and makes the 3 ball game thrive for them. He also is one of the best outlet passers of all time.

Direct assists shouldn't be the only judge of a persons passing. Shame hockey assists aren't tallied in the NBA.

Except that there are no such stats and the stats that are kept, dare I say it, suggest that KG was a better passer - at least he had a higher assist ratio. It is still funny to me how winning rings makes a player so much better than another player when if you look season by season, Duncan's and KG's all around stats are so close, and KG was actually better in their prime years 26-31 or so. KG never had the supporting cast or the coaching that Duncan head, and he has definitely declined faster - it's likely the additional 2 years of NBA on those knees. Duncan was/is an incredible player, but Garnett while being very comparable all around was so much more versatile. KG in his prime could guard 2-5 legitimately and play 3-5.

I am not saying anything bad about KG. I would probably give him the edge defensively because of his 1-5 versatility. But more assists doesn't equate to better passer. Not even close actually. Duncan is the better passer, eye test will suffice there. Top 3 outlet passer of all time and his post passing is up there too.

There are way more passes you can make in this league than ones that lead to a direct assists. Swing swing passes to the corner credit the assist to the guy who doesnt deserve it. Spurs have made an artform out of the swing swing pass to corner 3 since Duncan has been there and he has always been the catalyst that makes that part of the offense thrive. And again, his outlet passing is second to none in todays league (Love is close though).

I think KG is a great passer, but not on Duncans level and never was.

D-Leethal
08-21-2013, 04:33 PM
Interesting fact. KGs career DRTG is 99, Duncans 95.

I am fine with that answer, but I was talking to D-Lethal who doesn't believe that DRTG is worth a damn. I personally believe is that there is some middle ground with advanced and regular stats and considering that KG often had to guard the best player out of position, often SGs and very often SFs - DRTG may not be the best measure. I would also exclude KG's first 2 years since he came into the league 2 years younger and you want to compare apples to apples. You can easily argue either, I think they were much closer than people make it out to be considering their season numbers. Duncan was a much better player in the playoffs than KG and won more championships, but supporting cast and coaching are a pretty big part of that. On most lists, KG is at the very least 9-10 spots below Duncan all time and sometimes as many as 20+, which I believe is unfair. All that said, I don't think KG is the 5th best PF in the league today - he should be 2-4 spots down from that.

I don't think individual DRtg, a stat heavily skewed by quality of team, is worth all that much of a damn when one guy is on perennial powerhouse every season of his career and the other was a one man team for 75% of his. I think its a great judge of team defense though.

Either way, I brought up his passing, didnt touch D, not sure why you brought me into that part of the debate. I would give KG the nod on D.

Lets not derail the thread chief.

D-Leethal
08-21-2013, 04:46 PM
Interesting fact. KGs career DRTG is 99, Duncans 95.

Makes sense to me.

Minimal
08-21-2013, 05:00 PM
I am fine with that answer, but I was talking to D-Lethal who doesn't believe that DRTG is worth a damn. I personally believe is that there is some middle ground with advanced and regular stats and considering that KG often had to guard the best player out of position, often SGs and very often SFs - DRTG may not be the best measure. I would also exclude KG's first 2 years since he came into the league 2 years younger and you want to compare apples to apples. You can easily argue either, I think they were much closer than people make it out to be considering their season numbers. Duncan was a much better player in the playoffs than KG and won more championships, but supporting cast and coaching are a pretty big part of that. On most lists, KG is at the very least 9-10 spots below Duncan all time and sometimes as many as 20+, which I believe is unfair. All that said, I don't think KG is the 5th best PF in the league today - he should be 2-4 spots down from that.
Well DRTG has to do with team defense a lot. Duncan spent most of his career on a great defensive team. What I like to do is just check player rank in DRTG that particular year to see how of an anchor the player was to teams defense. Both KG and Duncan had best defensive season in 2003-2004.
KG had 92, ranked 1st on a team with most of the team in the 100s, thats shows the impact of KG on the defensive end.
Duncan had 89, ranked 1st, but 94% of the team was below 100 too, even Ginobili had a 93. That shows that Spurs were just a great defesive team.
KG and Duncan are both great defenders, but I'll still give an edge to KG. Duncan was really fortunate to be drafted by a great team and organisation.

Oefarmy2005
08-21-2013, 05:56 PM
I don't think individual DRtg, a stat heavily skewed by quality of team, is worth all that much of a damn when one guy is on perennial powerhouse every season of his career and the other was a one man team for 75% of his. I think its a great judge of team defense though.

Either way, I brought up his passing, didnt touch D, not sure why you brought me into that part of the debate. I would give KG the nod on D.

Lets not derail the thread chief.

On topic:
1) The reason why Duncan is always using the outlet pass is because he can't dribble as well. Garnett could literally bring up the ball up the floor like a PG.
2) Offensive system plays a huge role here. Garnett never spent much time in the post in Flip's system.
3) He had less support and worse shooters and still averaged around 5 assts as a PF in his prime. His court vision was/is on the level of some starting PGs in the league.

I like Tim, as a matter of fact I like him more since Garnett went to Boston an grown a huge ego, but I still think that all-around, as far as talent goes, Garnett was a better player in his prime.