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View Full Version : NBA.com "Efficiency Rating" Inventor kills himself (Leaves details in website)



Chronz
08-19-2013, 01:51 AM
http://deadspin.com/nba-efficiency-rating-inventor-kills-self-explains-via-1154741280?utm_campaign=socialflow_deadspin_facebo ok&utm_source=deadspin_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

Hes labeled as an inventor of the NBA's "Efficiency Rating" but his set of linear weights are unpractical and pretty much the butt of all metrics. Not trying to bash the guys legacy, this really isn't about that, its more about your thoughts on this kind of suicide:

http://www.zeroshare.info/why_suicide

I didnít want to die alone. I didnít want to die of old age. I didnít want to die after years of unproductivity. I didnít want to die having my chin and my butt wiped by someone who might forget which cloth they used for which. I didnít want to die of a stroke or cancer or heart attack or Alzheimerís. I decided I was gettiní out while the gettiní was good and while I could still produce this website! Iíve been to the penthouse. It may only be a 10-story building, but I refuse to ride the elevator down to the basement! Nope, I'm going out on top. The rest of you can go out whenever you want.

Ebbs
08-19-2013, 01:54 AM
Wow.

lol, please
08-19-2013, 01:59 AM
I commend it. Too many people criticize the option as if a man can't decide what to do with his own life. I agree with his sentiments, I don't want any of those things either, and would rather go out in my prime.

Kashmir13579
08-19-2013, 01:59 AM
I think existentialist topics such as this are better left bounds away from PSDs NBA Forum.

There is something poetic and justified about this though. Having already lived a fulfilling life, is being kept alive by machines and medicine, worth the subsequent physical strain and humiliation?

SugeKnight
08-19-2013, 02:03 AM
How old was this dude?

SportsFanatic10
08-19-2013, 02:05 AM
How old was this dude?

60, i think there was a thread about this yesterday. his website is pretty intense.

east fb knicks
08-19-2013, 02:06 AM
yo that's not cool their is nothing funny about a mans death whoever made this thread kill ya self :mad: close this garbage

Kashmir13579
08-19-2013, 02:07 AM
yo that's not cool their is nothing funny about a mans death whoever made this thread kill ya self :mad: close this garbage

You shouldn't be allowed access to computers.

SportsFanatic10
08-19-2013, 02:08 AM
yo that's not cool their is nothing funny about a mans death whoever made this thread kill ya self :mad: close this garbage

wtf?

tredigs
08-19-2013, 02:11 AM
Very interesting. Seems that he was becoming increasingly fearful of the tragedies and potential future tragedies of the world around him, of having to be taking care for after losing his functionality (physically and mentally), and of not being able to leave anything behind monetarily for those he cared about by depleting the savings over the next ~20 years or so.

I'm not sure if he had a wife or kids, and I'd likely be pissed if I were them (for many of these same reasons), but on its face it's understandable and in its own morbid way respectable.

60 seems very young for this (I'm at the parents for the weekend and see my dad who's nearly 70, healthy as can be, still working, and still capable of smoking me and most contestants in Jeopardy), and kind of shake my head. But hey, it's your life, and not everyone has the same journey in mind. I'm definitely not one to place harsh judgement on someone who seems to have thought this out for some time and decided how he wanted to go.

Clippersfan86
08-19-2013, 02:20 AM
Honestly I'm going to get blasted for this but I think it's selfish and mentally weak. I understand going out on your own terms but the devastation it's going to cause his family and friends is likely immense. If he got the okay from his family and they came to terms with it fine, but it doesn't seem like that's the case.

Like Tredigs said it sounds like a guy who's fearful of the future. It's idiotic because for all he knows he could live to 85 as healthy as possibly and have countless more good moments in life and maybe even inspire and change a few lives. Again like Tre said if I was his kid, wife etc... I'd be enraged and probably harbor a lot of resentment towards him for a while.

Man up and take life as it comes. Some things suck, some things are great. Feels like a guy who just wanted to stick to the easy years and skip all of the POTENTIALLY hard or bad moments. Coming from my past which I'm sure is significantly worse than this guy's, this kind of seems like a pathetic, scared way to go out.

tredigs
08-19-2013, 02:21 AM
Somehow I've never given this much thought but I suppose my take on suicide ultimately would be this: If you've outlived your parents (and if you had one, significant other), raised your children and fulfilled your personal destiny to your hearts content - you've earned it. If you were a good person you're still going to crush a ton of people, but so be it if you feel that strongly about it.

If your parents and/or wife were absolute pieces of ****, then remove that blockade accordingly. It's a pretty cool world though and there is WAY too much out there to see half of it in just 60 years, so to me it's still a shame that someone this lucid 'went out on top' like Seinfeld, but what can ya do.

Clippersfan86
08-19-2013, 02:24 AM
Somehow I've never given this much thought but I suppose my take on suicide ultimately would be this: If you've outlived your parents (and if you had one, significant other), raised your children and fulfilled your personal destiny to your hearts content - you've earned it. If you were a good person you're still going to crush a ton of people, but so be it if you feel that strongly about it.

If your parents and/or wife were absolute pieces of ****, then remove that blockade accordingly. It's a pretty cool world though and there is WAY too much out there to see half of it in just 60 years, so to me it's still a shame that someone this lucid 'went out on top' like Seinfeld, but what can ya do.

Nowadays most people don't even get to retire by 60. Still SO many experiences to be had. I agree with your scenarios in which it WOULD be more easy to accept this but I doubt either of them were the actual scenarios (Bad family or accomplishing everything he wanted to). We all have a duty to make a difference in this world and change lives for future generations (especially our own) in my opinion. Him living another 5 years for example could have potentially impacted so many lives.

If he was slowly and painfully dying with a disease or something I'd understand it more but he took the easy way out and missed many opportunities to help others and make a difference. Unless I'm in agony I'm fighting until my last breath to make a difference. Not everybody agrees with this or follows this but he could have been a blessing in many lives as I said.

JNA17
08-19-2013, 02:51 AM
Honestly I'm going to get blasted for this but I think it's selfish and mentally weak. I understand going out on your own terms but the devastation it's going to cause his family and friends is likely immense. If he got the okay from his family and they came to terms with it fine, but it doesn't seem like that's the case.

Like Tredigs said it sounds like a guy who's fearful of the future. It's idiotic because for all he knows he could live to 85 as healthy as possibly and have countless more good moments in life and maybe even inspire and change a few lives. Again like Tre said if I was his kid, wife etc... I'd be enraged and probably harbor a lot of resentment towards him for a while.

Man up and take life as it comes. Some things suck, some things are great. Feels like a guy who just wanted to stick to the easy years and skip all of the POTENTIALLY hard or bad moments. Coming from my past which I'm sure is significantly worse than this guy's, this kind of seems like a pathetic, scared way to go out.

You're not going to get blasted for that since I fully agree with you.

There is nothing poetic or justified about this. This is just stupid and selfish of him. Unless the guy was for sure going to have alzheimer's or was sitting in a hospital bed suffering from eating a feeding tube for the rest of his life, then I don't see any reason why this guy should be praised for this kind of action.

The guy is afraid of the future? Well gee wiz so am I! So is a lot of people. I'm afraid and excited at the same of what is going to happen to me as well as all of humanity in the future. Doesn't mean I should give in to that kind of fear and kill myself over it. I mean the guy was only what? 60 years old?

Whatever, usually I would thats terrible and rip or what not, but I'm not. Screw this guy. He never went out on top nor did he ever reach it. He went out as a coward.

asandhu23
08-19-2013, 03:04 AM
He took efficiency a bit too seriously.

abe_froman
08-19-2013, 03:07 AM
i love hearing people pass critical judgement on others for their choices,like suicide.we have no idea what the guy was going through,we dont even know who the guy is.while it sucks he died,its not really our call to insult him ,ect. for his choice....and as someone who's gone dangerously close to that option a few times,and who's counseled others who have to,giving it the tag it has of selfish,cowardly,weak,ect. does nothing in helping pull back people who are in that same dark place contemplating it

Supreme LA
08-19-2013, 03:11 AM
60 seems quite young. I don't know the type of health conditions he may or may not have had a the time (Did not read the article) but my first thoughts would be staying alive as long as I could for my family. On the other hand, I could understand if he was already terminally ill.

Guppyfighter
08-19-2013, 04:12 AM
Requiescat in pace, Martin.

Guppyfighter
08-19-2013, 04:12 AM
60 seems quite young. I don't know the type of health conditions he may or may not have had a the time (Did not read the article) but my first thoughts would be staying alive as long as I could for my family. On the other hand, I could understand if he was already terminally ill.

He wrote it so matter of factly you forget you are reading a suicide note.

dalton749
08-19-2013, 04:41 AM
He took efficiency a bit too seriously.

Lmao. Dfkm

fresh prince
08-19-2013, 05:36 AM
He certainly made a good case for justifying his act. I don't agree with him but as he said its life / death.

amos1er
08-19-2013, 05:47 AM
Wow. Crazy ****. Really makes you think about things. Don't personally agree, but I can understand where he is coming from.

Leftcoast_yg
08-19-2013, 06:39 AM
I commend it. Too many people criticize the option as if a man can't decide what to do with his own life. I agree with his sentiments, I don't want any of those things either, and would rather go out in my prime.

Thats selfish big time!!!

You know why? Because your only thinking about yourself and what you want and not the feelings and emotions of your loved ones, parents uncles and aunts who love you wholeheartedly and if you got a wife and kids wow big time coward.

Badluck33
08-19-2013, 08:07 AM
can't honor a man who decides to takes his own life. Its selfish, cowardly and foolish.

KingsOfQueens
08-19-2013, 11:02 AM
Suicide is selfish. RIP to him and condolences to the family. But it is a cowardly act.

aTinyPanda
08-19-2013, 11:19 AM
SMFH at all these people judging him in this thread. You can go to his website and read in great detail how he felt his mind was starting to deteriorate severely. He would watch a movie and think it was great, go online to rotten tomatoes and write up a review for it, only to realize that he had already seen and reviewed the movie a short while ago. This is coming from a guy who was a self-proclaimed hyper analytical mind.

Also, everyone saying this is a selfish act.. he had no children. His parents were long gone. All of his closest friends were highly analytical and rational thinkers, and he trusted them to make their own conclusions about his decision based on his writings. The only family he had left were adult brothers and sisters who lived in different states and rarely visited.

For all you people calling him a coward.. man just remember that when you're 80 years old laying in a bed with no ability to do anything for yourself, parents long gone, most of your friends and peripheral family long gone, and only your progeny left in the world that you can put a name to the face. I know it's morbid as ****, but people just do not consider this stuff when they jump up to judge others. Hard enough living your own life and making it thru, now you gotta tell others how to live theirs as well?

Pierzynski4Prez
08-19-2013, 11:24 AM
I feel bad for his family

Kashmir13579
08-19-2013, 11:28 AM
i love hearing people pass critical judgement on others for their choices,like suicide.we have no idea what the guy was going through,we dont even know who the guy is.while it sucks he died,its not really our call to insult him ,ect. for his choice....and as someone who's gone dangerously close to that option a few times,and who's counseled others who have to,giving it the tag it has of selfish,cowardly,weak,ect. does nothing in helping pull back people who are in that same dark place contemplating it
I agree. Who am i to judge?

aTinyPanda
08-19-2013, 11:35 AM
I feel bad for his family

He only had a few brothers/sisters left in the entire world, whom lived out of state and were rarely in contact. No kids, no parents, no wife. He took this into consideration when first considering killing himself.

Clippersfan86
08-19-2013, 11:43 AM
I agree. Who am i to judge?

At the end of the day it is between him and God but in general most times suicide is cowardly and selfish. Like I said... I have had every excuse in the book to commit suicide in my life if I'm going by the reasons most people give. No family? Check. Bad past, check. Abused in all ways, check. I mean just no excuse.

colinskik
08-19-2013, 11:43 AM
He took efficiency a bit too seriously.

HA! Got um!

Clippersfan86
08-19-2013, 11:47 AM
You're not going to get blasted for that since I fully agree with you.

There is nothing poetic or justified about this. This is just stupid and selfish of him. Unless the guy was for sure going to have alzheimer's or was sitting in a hospital bed suffering from eating a feeding tube for the rest of his life, then I don't see any reason why this guy should be praised for this kind of action.

The guy is afraid of the future? Well gee wiz so am I! So is a lot of people. I'm afraid and excited at the same of what is going to happen to me as well as all of humanity in the future. Doesn't mean I should give in to that kind of fear and kill myself over it. I mean the guy was only what? 60 years old?

Whatever, usually I would thats terrible and rip or what not, but I'm not. Screw this guy. He never went out on top nor did he ever reach it. He went out as a coward.

Great post. 60 nowadays is like the new 45. I know 60 year olds that look and feel amazing for their age and carry on perfectly great lives. Like Asandhu23 said he took efficiency a bit too seriously lol. Once he was no longer in his "peak" and started registering lesser efficiency he retired from life. Seriously it's just as bad to be OVERLY analytic and logical as it is to be overly emotional. He was looking at this like a math problem and that's not what life is.

Chronz
08-19-2013, 11:47 AM
He took efficiency a bit too seriously.
....... u went there

JNA17
08-19-2013, 11:51 AM
Great post. 60 nowadays is like the new 45. I know 60 year olds that look and feel amazing for their age and carry on perfectly great lives. Like Asandhu23 said he took efficiency a bit too seriously lol. Once he was no longer in his "peak" and started registering lesser efficiency he retired from life. Seriously it's just as bad to be OVERLY analytic and logical as it is to be overly emotional. He was looking at this like a math problem and that's not what life is.

Dude you should see Chuck Norris. The guy is 71 or 72 years old but looks no older than 45 maybe.

Clippersfan86
08-19-2013, 11:56 AM
Man when I go to the gym I see tons of 60-70 year old's in OUTSTANDING shape (a lot better than me) and that have great lives seemingly. Chuck Norris would still hand us our ***** haha. I understand a lot of times you don't actually know what somebody is going through. Considering this guy wrote a novel on the way out practically though, it didn't look like this had to do with pain or going through rough times lol. Some people need to stop making this guy out to be something great like a martyr.

TO Rapz
08-19-2013, 12:03 PM
He took efficiency a bit too seriously.

:laugh:

C_Mund
08-19-2013, 12:19 PM
Great post. 60 nowadays is like the new 45. I know 60 year olds that look and feel amazing for their age and carry on perfectly great lives. Like Asandhu23 said he took efficiency a bit too seriously lol. Once he was no longer in his "peak" and started registering lesser efficiency he retired from life. Seriously it's just as bad to be OVERLY analytic and logical as it is to be overly emotional. He was looking at this like a math problem and that's not what life is.

I completely understand your point of view but to say that your definition of life is all-encompassing is just as selfish/egotistical as some people are calling suicide. The reason you live has no bearing on anybody else's, and though you may judge his decision (which you have every right to do) you certainly have no authority to define "life" for everybody else.

Personally I can see why he'd do what he did, and although I share his sentiments I'd still rather let nature take its course. I mean, I drink and smoke and all that because I'm not trying to push 90 later in life, but that doesn't mean that I'll just wake up and decide that there's nothing more I can do.

Clippersfan86
08-19-2013, 12:37 PM
I completely understand your point of view but to say that your definition of life is all-encompassing is just as selfish/egotistical as some people are calling suicide. The reason you live has no bearing on anybody else's, and though you may judge his decision (which you have every right to do) you certainly have no authority to define "life" for everybody else.

Personally I can see why he'd do what he did, and although I share his sentiments I'd still rather let nature take its course. I mean, I drink and smoke and all that because I'm not trying to push 90 later in life, but that doesn't mean that I'll just wake up and decide that there's nothing more I can do.

Everything posted on a forum in regards to something like this is going to be opinion or personal experience. I don't think I need to add "in my opinion" to every sentence when it's obviously my opinion considering this isn't me writing a textbook of facts. When I make a statement like "life is more than a math problem", I don't know where you get me claiming authority from that. It's simply my experience, my opinion.

I've lived a hell of a lot for my age and been through a lot. I've helped many people get through things in life. My experiences have led me to the belief that people who look at life like a math equation... are FAR more likely to have miserable or unfulfilled lives. I understand everybody's right to live how they want, doesn't mean I'm not going to call their decisions dumb or shortsighted.

You want to take your own life the only person you need to answer to your maker. "Survival of the fittest" seems more and more fitting as I get older. Bottom line is the mentally strong survive and thrive, the weak die off. I had an almost identical background to my two sisters and where as they came out drug addicts, terrible parents, suicidal, mentally broken.... I came out as a decent guy who's pretty productive. So forgive me for having no pity for weak people that take the easy way out when I never did.

I'm by nature a protector who helps the weak or less fortunate people that seek help. But this is somebody saying "I can't handle what life may hand me so goodbye".

macc
08-19-2013, 12:38 PM
I'm just speculating as I don't know anything about the guy at all, but from his final message I would guess he was prob on some bad drugs to have that kind of thinking. I mean, the guy was in his 60's. I understand he wants to go out on his own terms but if he didn't have a deadly illness or anything then something else was prob clouding his mind because he most likely had alot of life in him left.

Pierzynski4Prez
08-19-2013, 12:44 PM
He only had a few brothers/sisters left in the entire world, whom lived out of state and were rarely in contact. No kids, no parents, no wife. He took this into consideration when first considering killing himself.

Good to know. Still not a reason to take your own life.

aTinyPanda
08-19-2013, 12:45 PM
I'm just speculating as I don't know anything about the guy at all, but from his final message I would guess he was prob on some bad drugs to have that kind of thinking. I mean, the guy was in his 60's. I understand he wants to go out on his own terms but if he didn't have a deadly illness or anything then something else was prob clouding his mind because he most likely had alot of life in him left.

He felt he was experiencing the initial stages of dementia and it was progressing fast enough to the point he wanted to document his life and then escape it before he was rendered incapable of doing so.

aTinyPanda
08-19-2013, 12:47 PM
Good to know. Still not a reason to take your own life.

That wasn't his reason, you would know that if you actually read any small portion of what he wrote. The guy was no hero for his choice.. but he wasn't a villain or a coward for it either IMO. It was his life. We don't get to decide definitively what a good enough reason is for him to take his own life.

Clippersfan86
08-19-2013, 12:49 PM
Well if it's true that he had no wife or kids either, I don't think it's going to have as much of a devastating impact which is a big part of my opinion. I still think it's cowardly and the easy way out of life BUT at least he's only hurting himself for the most part so I think we can say it's not as selfish.

Hustla23
08-19-2013, 12:49 PM
He took efficiency a bit too seriously.

LOL yikes.

Clippersfan86
08-19-2013, 12:53 PM
That wasn't his reason, you would know that if you actually read any small portion of what he wrote. The guy was no hero for his choice.. but he wasn't a villain or a coward for it either IMO. It was his life. We don't get to decide definitively what a good enough reason is for him to take his own life.

Sounds like you have zero skepticism in this guy's writings. You honestly believe every single thing he said? Whether it's on his death bed or not he's going to spin it in the best way possible. He's not going to say "I'm scared of what life has ahead of me and I'm emotionally and mentally weak".

3RDASYSTEM
08-19-2013, 12:55 PM
A real man will pick his time to go - 2PAC

FlakeyFool
08-19-2013, 12:55 PM
yo that's not cool their is nothing funny about a mans death whoever made this thread kill ya self :mad: close this garbage

Knicks fan alert

aTinyPanda
08-19-2013, 01:06 PM
Sounds like you have zero skepticism in this guy's writings. You honestly believe every single thing he said? Whether it's on his death bed or not he's going to spin it in the best way possible. He's not going to say "I'm scared of what life has ahead of me and I'm emotionally and mentally weak".

I take his writings at face value, since that's the only thing to base this entire discussion off of. I found them to be a bit arrogant and self aggrandizing, but also seemingly revealing. As for what you seem to think he's never going to say on his death bed... that's pretty much exactly what he wrote dude, except the mentally and emotionally weak parts were what was coming for him in due time.. according to him. He first covers his impending dementia and the stranglehold that has on a persons ability to control their own life. Then he mentions his fear of impending financial collapse, of increasing corruption, and increasing suffering over the last few decades. He's obviously unhappy with the direction of the world and his life and fears it, he states that explicitly. Again, it's all there in the writings. If you wanna call him a coward, go right ahead. I just think it takes a real douche to stand on a soap box and make degrading statements about someone they've never met just because you disagree with them and their life choices. Agree to disagree.

Clippersfan86
08-19-2013, 01:28 PM
I take his writings at face value, since that's the only thing to base this entire discussion off of. I found them to be a bit arrogant and self aggrandizing, but also seemingly revealing. As for what you seem to think he's never going to say on his death bed... that's pretty much exactly what he wrote dude, except the mentally and emotionally weak parts were what was coming for him in due time.. according to him. He first covers his impending dementia and the stranglehold that has on a persons ability to control their own life. Then he mentions his fear of impending financial collapse, of increasing corruption, and increasing suffering over the last few decades. He's obviously unhappy with the direction of the world and his life and fears it, he states that explicitly. Again, it's all there in the writings. If you wanna call him a coward, go right ahead. I just think it takes a real douche to stand on a soap box and make degrading statements about someone they've never met just because you disagree with them and their life choices. Agree to disagree.

It's nothing personal about the guy, for all I know he was a great guy and I acknowledge that. I think ANY suicide is taking the coward way out and have had enough family members and friends either commit suicide or attempt to. My sister has almost succeeded twice and my close 1st cousin succeeded just a month ago.

aTinyPanda
08-19-2013, 01:31 PM
It's nothing personal about the guy, for all I know he was a great guy and I acknowledge that. I think ANY suicide is taking the coward way out and have had enough family members and friends either commit suicide or attempt to. My sister has almost succeeded twice and my close 1st cousin succeeded just a month ago.

Yeah man I can respect that.. I've had people go on their own means in my life as well. I just try to approach it with a more empathetic view is all.. I try not to damn anyone for anything.. especially in this dude's case where he had hardly and family left and no kids. I can get where you're coming from though.

Guppyfighter
08-19-2013, 01:37 PM
Do not judge a man until you know his circumstances.

Lets just accept this as something as sad.

Clippersfan86
08-19-2013, 01:39 PM
Yeah man I can respect that.. I've had people go on their own means in my life as well. I just try to approach it with a more empathetic view is all.. I try not to damn anyone for anything.. especially in this dude's case where he had hardly and family left and no kids. I can get where you're coming from though.

I understand my POV seems super harsh but it's not without reason or experience. I'm not damning him in the sense that his salvation and what happens now is between him and God. I'm just saying we should be careful of labeling this as "tragic" or treating him like a martyr. You're not doing this but some in here are praising him for this.

Clippersfan86
08-19-2013, 01:43 PM
Duplicate.

Kashmir13579
08-19-2013, 02:19 PM
At the end of the day it is between him and God but in general most times suicide is cowardly and selfish. Like I said... I have had every excuse in the book to commit suicide in my life if I'm going by the reasons most people give. No family? Check. Bad past, check. Abused in all ways, check. I mean just no excuse.
I don't think he did it because he had a bad life.

LeperMessiah
08-19-2013, 02:27 PM
Honestly I'm going to get blasted for this but I think it's selfish and mentally weak. I understand going out on your own terms but the devastation it's going to cause his family and friends is likely immense. If he got the okay from his family and they came to terms with it fine, but it doesn't seem like that's the case.

Like Tredigs said it sounds like a guy who's fearful of the future. It's idiotic because for all he knows he could live to 85 as healthy as possibly and have countless more good moments in life and maybe even inspire and change a few lives. Again like Tre said if I was his kid, wife etc... I'd be enraged and probably harbor a lot of resentment towards him for a while.

Man up and take life as it comes. Some things suck, some things are great. Feels like a guy who just wanted to stick to the easy years and skip all of the POTENTIALLY hard or bad moments. Coming from my past which I'm sure is significantly worse than this guy's, this kind of seems like a pathetic, scared way to go out.

That will always come with death, regardless.

It was his option whether or not to participate in them. It was his choice alone. The selfish thing to do is just get up and go with no reasons, but he stated his.

His message didn't seem like he was scared. It's his option and he chose to go through with it. It's also selfish of the family members to prolong somebody's death just because "they didn't want to see him/her die." I would die resenting the hell out of my family if they let me suffer like that (not that this is related to this scenario).

LeperMessiah
08-19-2013, 02:28 PM
Do not judge a man until you know his circumstances.

Lets just accept this as something as sad.

Bingo.

aTinyPanda
08-19-2013, 02:40 PM
That will always come with death, regardless.

It was his option whether or not to participate in them. It was his choice alone. The selfish thing to do is just get up and go with no reasons, but he stated his.

His message didn't seem like he was scared. It's his option and he chose to go through with it. It's also selfish of the family members to prolong somebody's death just because "they didn't want to see him/her die." I would die resenting the hell out of my family if they let me suffer like that (not that this is related to this scenario).

I agree 100% with a lot of what you're saying, but if you read all of the sections.. it's pretty obvious he's terrified at the prospect of his mind degenerating and also all the things he mentioned about economic collapse and natural disasters causing pain and what not. He may be writing from a place of calmness and understanding, but the fact is he would rather not deal with those things than deal with them, and that is a fear of the unknown.

Kashmir13579
08-19-2013, 02:46 PM
That will always come with death, regardless.

It was his option whether or not to participate in them. It was his choice alone. The selfish thing to do is just get up and go with no reasons, but he stated his.

His message didn't seem like he was scared. It's his option and he chose to go through with it. It's also selfish of the family members to prolong somebody's death just because "they didn't want to see him/her die." I would die resenting the hell out of my family if they let me suffer like that (not that this is related to this scenario).

The message Chronz posted felt more like bravery to me than cowardice. Like you said, he states his reasons clearly, and they make sense whether or not you fundamentally agree with his choice.

C_Mund
08-19-2013, 02:46 PM
Everything posted on a forum in regards to something like this is going to be opinion or personal experience. I don't think I need to add "in my opinion" to every sentence when it's obviously my opinion considering this isn't me writing a textbook of facts. When I make a statement like "life is more than a math problem", I don't know where you get me claiming authority from that. It's simply my experience, my opinion.

I've lived a hell of a lot for my age and been through a lot. I've helped many people get through things in life. My experiences have led me to the belief that people who look at life like a math equation... are FAR more likely to have miserable or unfulfilled lives. I understand everybody's right to live how they want, doesn't mean I'm not going to call their decisions dumb or shortsighted.

You want to take your own life the only person you need to answer to your maker. "Survival of the fittest" seems more and more fitting as I get older. Bottom line is the mentally strong survive and thrive, the weak die off. I had an almost identical background to my two sisters and where as they came out drug addicts, terrible parents, suicidal, mentally broken.... I came out as a decent guy who's pretty productive. So forgive me for having no pity for weak people that take the easy way out when I never did.

I'm by nature a protector who helps the weak or less fortunate people that seek help. But this is somebody saying "I can't handle what life may hand me so goodbye".

That's cool man, I do appreciate your input and I wasn't trying to call you out. I just wanted to point out that this is definitely an odd situation and the standard judgments (or arguments, let's say) against suicide may not apply in this instance.

Either way, not trying to put words into your mouth and as a fellow PSD'er I'm happy you made it through.

IndyRealist
08-19-2013, 02:52 PM
This the not the topic of which anyone should be speaking in generalities. Go read his website, his reasoning, and his thought process and then comment, or don't comment at all.

Clippersfan86
08-19-2013, 02:52 PM
That's cool man, I do appreciate your input and I wasn't trying to call you out. I just wanted to point out that this is definitely an odd situation and the standard judgments (or arguments, let's say) against suicide may not apply in this instance.

Either way, not trying to put words into your mouth and as a fellow PSD'er I'm happy you made it through.

Fair enough, thanks for being reasonable. As I said in hindsight I was a bit harsh about the "selfish" angle when I found out he had no kids or wife. I shouldn't have assumed that he had any sort of family, I admit that. Given the circumstances that he was essentially alone in life from what it sounds like his decision affects nobody but himself really (at least to a huge degree).

Clippersfan86
08-19-2013, 02:58 PM
The message Chronz posted felt more like bravery to me than cowardice. Like you said, he states his reasons clearly, and they make sense whether or not you fundamentally agree with his choice.

And this is why I'm being defensive and stubborn in here. This guy is being celebrated as some sort of brave hero SMFH. Let's mourn people like firemen, soldiers, cops etc who die doing something truly brave and honorable. Not stat nerds who kill themselves because of a fear of the unknown in the future. :mad::mad:. Nothing about this guy is brave or heroic, at least in terms of his suicide.

5ass
08-19-2013, 03:00 PM
If you have the right to live, u have the right to die.RIP

flea
08-19-2013, 03:03 PM
Pretty egotistical to make a big dog and pony show about your own death while you're still alive.

Kashmir13579
08-19-2013, 03:04 PM
And this is why I'm being defensive and stubborn in here. This guy is being celebrated as some sort of brave hero SMFH. Let's mourn people like firemen, soldiers, cops etc who die doing something truly brave and honorable. Not stat nerds who kill themselves because of a fear of the unknown in the future. :mad::mad:. Nothing about this guy is brave or heroic, at least in terms of his suicide.
Others see it differently. I watched my grandpa live his last years being kept alive by machines and pills, while the pharmaceutical companies made thousands. We're not meant to be living this long. Who are you to say otherwise? If what the "stat nerd" said in his goodbye letter was genuine, its more about being happy for him than mourning.

I certainly don't feel as strong positively towards this man as you do negatively. There's a bit of ambiguity to it.. The great unknown and all.. You don't have the answers. No one does.

Clippersfan86
08-19-2013, 03:04 PM
Pretty egotistical to make a big dog and pony show about your own death while you're still alive.

Honestly maybe it's a huge reach but it could have been a last second cry for help. I wonder how long of a gap there was between the time he published this website and killed himself?

Clippersfan86
08-19-2013, 03:07 PM
Others see it differently. I watched my grandpa live his last years being kept alive by machines and pills, while the pharmaceutical companies made thousands. We're not meant to be living this long. Who are you to say otherwise? If what the "stat nerd" said in his goodbye letter was genuine, its more about being happy for him than mourning.

Are you really comparing this man? I already mentioned this previously. If the man was terminally ill like your Grandfather it's FAR more understandable. Hell that would make even ME (somebody strongly against suicide) at least ponder it. From what we know outside of the beginnings of dementia he was a healthy, pretty young individual. We are not meant to live to 60 lol? What is this based on?

The average man currently lives to 84 the average woman lives to 86 with modern health advances. Like we discussed earlier plenty of 60 year old's carry on happy, healthy and good lives.

aTinyPanda
08-19-2013, 03:14 PM
Honestly maybe it's a huge reach but it could have been a last second cry for help. I wonder how long of a gap there was between the time he published this website and killed himself?

He had it set up to publish the day of. He also had a blog post ready to roll out the day of, directing people to the suicide note website. He pre-paid for the website to remain on Yahoo's domain for 5 years, and he mentions others can continue to pay for the website if they wish to keep it up.

Honestly, like I said before: When I read thru his writings there was a serious taste of arrogance and delusions of grandeur left in my mouth. Basically.. he made the website as his final attempt to leave a lasting stamp on the world, and also to rationalize his decision for any friends or passers-by that want answers.

I agree completely that he shouldn't be championed for his choice (with the caveat being that there are folks who feel strongly that self-euthanizing should be legal and accessible, and I can see them latching on to this story). I also feel he shouldn't be criticized on the level he has received by some in this thread too. His life, his choice to end it IMO.

Lakers + Giants
08-19-2013, 03:18 PM
If he enjoyed his 60 years and didn't have a family like you guys said then I guess I sort of understand.

Quality>Quantity when it comes to life. that's for sure.

C_Mund
08-19-2013, 03:26 PM
If he enjoyed his 60 years and didn't have a family like you guys said then I guess I sort of understand.

Quality>Quantity when it comes to life. that's for sure.

I agree. I think that the argument from the other side is that the quality is there if you look/work for it, and to end it without trying is cowardice. I can see where both sides are coming from.... this is a pretty touchy subject for a group of faceless strangers to be speaking on haha

aTinyPanda
08-19-2013, 03:27 PM
I agree. I think that the argument from the other side is that the quality is there if you look/work for it, and to end it without trying is cowardice. I can see where both sides are coming from.... this is a pretty touchy subject for a group of faceless strangers to be speaking on haha

You should have seen the "Tim Duncan is Bisexual" thread from a few weeks ago.. good lord things got offensive in a hurry over there

Clippersfan86
08-19-2013, 03:28 PM
He had it set up to publish the day of. He also had a blog post ready to roll out the day of, directing people to the suicide note website. He pre-paid for the website to remain on Yahoo's domain for 5 years, and he mentions others can continue to pay for the website if they wish to keep it up.

Honestly, like I said before: When I read thru his writings there was a serious taste of arrogance and delusions of grandeur left in my mouth. Basically.. he made the website as his final attempt to leave a lasting stamp on the world, and also to rationalize his decision for any friends or passers-by that want answers.

I agree completely that he shouldn't be championed for his choice (with the caveat being that there are folks who feel strongly that self-euthanizing should be legal and accessible, and I can see them latching on to this story). I also feel he shouldn't be criticized on the level he has received by some in this thread too. His life, his choice to end it IMO.

Great post and you're right on all accounts IMO. I'm being too critical while some are being too lenient probably. You seem like the only guy here who truly read most of what he wrote so you seem to be in the know on his beliefs. I read a few parts then was like F this crap and stopped.

Clippersfan86
08-19-2013, 03:30 PM
I agree. I think that the argument from the other side is that the quality is there if you look/work for it, and to end it without trying is cowardice. I can see where both sides are coming from.... this is a pretty touchy subject for a group of faceless strangers to be speaking on haha

:laugh: on a serious note though this kind of stuff is good for the forum. Sometimes the only thing we see from each other is the heated basketball debates. The "homerism" and "diehard" fan coming out of us and one upping each other or competing. To be able to discuss things more serious and less superficial than that is probably beneficial for all of us. I'd rather discuss controversial things like this than the usual Kobe vs Lebron crap.

aTinyPanda
08-19-2013, 03:40 PM
Great post and you're right on all accounts IMO. I'm being too critical while some are being too lenient probably. You seem like the only guy here who truly read most of what he wrote so you seem to be in the know on his beliefs. I read a few parts then was like F this crap and stopped.

Thanks, I'm glad we could find a middle ground here. I feel you on the whole "F this crap" thing . I sympathized with his reasoning and outlook whole heartedly, as two of my close family members are in the intermediate stages of dementia, and it is literal hell on earth for all parties involved. However, I could not get over the tone with which he often described himself and his accomplishments. A very holier than thou sort of tone. Turned me off, but I'm compelled and interested in life and death and read the whole thing out of morbid curiosity.


:laugh: on a serious note though this kind of stuff is good for the forum. Sometimes the only thing we see from each other is the heated basketball debates. The "homerism" and "diehard" fan coming out of us and one upping each other or competing. To be able to discuss things more serious and less superficial than that is probably beneficial for all of us. I'd rather discuss controversial things like this than the usual Kobe vs Lebron crap.

This, this, this. Not everyone is going to partake, and often times it turns into a flame war.. but if you can manage to find a few good people to zone in on and have a legit discussion, it can be very beneficial for all parties involved.

macc
08-19-2013, 03:42 PM
Anytime someone commits suicide for whatever reason there is ALWAYS a flood of ignorant posters who follow. One thing I've realized in life is not to judge. Esp about things I have no idea about. NOTHING beats experience....I'll say that again, nothing beats experience. If you haven't experienced what these people go through then you literally have no clue and any strong opinion you have bashing him is simply immature and ignorant.

Obviously something like that isn't an easy decision to make. If it was true that he was experiencing dementia then I honestly don't really blame him. The thing that scares me most is dieing without any sense. That would prob be a worst case scenario for me. I would prob rather go out with the understanding of what life is then to get worse and worse till you don't know anyone anymore.

RIP

Clippersfan86
08-19-2013, 03:49 PM
Thanks, I'm glad we could find a middle ground here. I feel you on the whole "F this crap" thing . I sympathized with his reasoning and outlook whole heartedly, as two of my close family members are in the intermediate stages of dementia, and it is literal hell on earth for all parties involved. However, I could not get over the tone with which he often described himself and his accomplishments. A very holier than thou sort of tone. Turned me off, but I'm compelled and interested in life and death and read the whole thing out of morbid curiosity.



This, this, this. Not everyone is going to partake, and often times it turns into a flame war.. but if you can manage to find a few good people to zone in on and have a legit discussion, it can be very beneficial for all parties involved.

Exactly. I'm out for a while man but it's been a pleasure discussing this with you and a couple others in here. Somehow this thread was avoided by the worst trolls on PSD. Lucky for us.

Kashmir13579
08-19-2013, 03:55 PM
Are you really comparing this man? I already mentioned this previously. If the man was terminally ill like your Grandfather it's FAR more understandable. Hell that would make even ME (somebody strongly against suicide) at least ponder it. From what we know outside of the beginnings of dementia he was a healthy, pretty young individual. We are not meant to live to 60 lol? What is this based on?

The average man currently lives to 84 the average woman lives to 86 with modern health advances. Like we discussed earlier plenty of 60 year old's carry on happy, healthy and good lives.
You just don't see it the way i do. I love my Grandpa, but during those last few years, you could tell even he thought, "this is just getting a bit silly now". By the end of it he was fed-up and ready to die. Thats what the man in question wanted to avoid. I can't say its the choice i would make, but i don't pass judgement and can see where he was coming from.

Clippersfan86
08-19-2013, 04:01 PM
You just don't see it the way i do. I love my Grandpa, but during those last few years, you could tell even he thought, "this is just getting a bit silly now". By the end of it he was fed-up and ready to die. Thats what the man in question wanted to avoid. I can't say its the choice i would make, but i don't pass judgement and can see where he was coming from.

I didn't say I can't see where he's coming from, I just strongly disagreed. I understand WHY he did it, I just don't think it was a good choice. I'm sincerely sorry for what happened to your Grandpa man but I'm sure even in those last few years he made a difference in somebody's life... that he wouldn't have made if he killed himself 10-20 years earlier like this guy.

A true hero leaves his mark by changing lives for the better, not by writing a blog about his suicide. At least that's what I was saying. Anyways ttyl sir.

dtmagnet
08-19-2013, 04:01 PM
God says when you're done, its not for you to decide.

MickeyMgl
08-19-2013, 04:05 PM
http://deadspin.com/nba-efficiency-rating-inventor-kills-self-explains-via-1154741280?utm_campaign=socialflow_deadspin_facebo ok&utm_source=deadspin_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

Hes labeled as an inventor of the NBA's "Efficiency Rating" but his set of linear weights are unpractical and pretty much the butt of all metrics. Not trying to bash the guys legacy, this really isn't about that, its more about your thoughts on this kind of suicide:

http://www.zeroshare.info/why_suicide

It may not be a perfect metric, but there is no perfect metric. All player rating formulas express a bias. I find the EFF to be very useful, and like its straightforwardness. There's a certain level of conceit in formulas that incorporate subjective values and then portray themselves as completely objective.

AddiX
08-19-2013, 04:06 PM
Who the heck is anyone else to tell someone when they can and cannot "check out"?

The man made his choice and was at peace with it, I got no problem with it and either should anyone else.

Kashmir13579
08-19-2013, 04:08 PM
God says when you're done, its not for you to decide.

I guess "God" said he was "done."

Kashmir13579
08-19-2013, 04:09 PM
I didn't say I can't see where he's coming from, I just strongly disagreed. I understand WHY he did it, I just don't think it was a good choice. I'm sincerely sorry for what happened to your Grandpa man but I'm sure even in those last few years he made a difference in somebody's life... that he wouldn't have made if he killed himself 10-20 years earlier like this guy.

A true hero leaves his mark by changing lives for the better, not by writing a blog about his suicide. At least that's what I was saying. Anyways ttyl sir.
You are absolutely right about that. But again, we don't know the full story, here. Yep. Cheers.

Mr_Jones
08-19-2013, 04:10 PM
This is so weird; I almost am happy about it. Not that he's passed, but that he did exactly what he wanted to do.

He completed what he wanted to do--that's a good thing. This passing isn't sad in the least bit. He wanted to go his way and his way should be remembered as a happy time. I'm happy that he got to do what he set out to do.

aTinyPanda
08-19-2013, 04:11 PM
God says when you're done, its not for you to decide.


I guess "God" said he was "done."

Can we please just leave that stuff out of this thread and talk about earthly concepts. Your idea of God, dtmagnet, is in no way a representation of everyone on this forum and you're just begging to start a fight.

Mr_Jones
08-19-2013, 04:12 PM
God says when you're done, its not for you to decide.

..yet, this was his plan all along.

Who are we to judge any of Mr. Manley's decisions?

asandhu23
08-19-2013, 04:14 PM
Who the heck is anyone else to tell someone when they can and cannot "check out"?

The man made his choice and was at peace with it, I got no problem with it and either should anyone else.

Welcome to Hotel California!

asandhu23
08-19-2013, 04:16 PM
Lmao. Dfkm

what?

Spurred1
08-19-2013, 04:17 PM
Pretty unfortunate, but it is his choice to make. If he truly felt he was developing Alzheimer's or another form of dementia, or had it verified by medical professionals, suicide is certainly one way to cease the development. Maybe he was scared of becoming a burden for others while his brain eroded. Face it, if you have ALS, cancer, Alzheimer's, Huntington's, or any other fatal disease, you know it's going to reach a point where there's going to be no improvement, no remission, no nothing to save you. Should someone really be forced to endure the last stages of a painful illness where they lose everything and its beyond their control?
I watched a documentary a couple years back on the right to die controversy in Oregon. You can legally commit suicide there, but only if you can verify you are dying with no hope of recovery. There are steps/procedures one has to go through before they can do it, of course.
While I understand why others feel it is an act of cowardice(and it can be for young healthy people who need therapy/medical intervention or are simply reacting to terrible emotional upheaval that will lessen over time) it also is often a decision that one has the freedom to make. Not everyone wants to grow old, for whatever reason. That is their business and the family's business, not anyone else's.

LegendsNvrDie23
08-19-2013, 07:51 PM
http://deadspin.com/nba-efficiency-rating-inventor-kills-self-explains-via-1154741280?utm_campaign=socialflow_deadspin_facebo ok&utm_source=deadspin_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

Hes labeled as an inventor of the NBA's "Efficiency Rating" but his set of linear weights are unpractical and pretty much the butt of all metrics. Not trying to bash the guys legacy, this really isn't about that, its more about your thoughts on this kind of suicide:

http://www.zeroshare.info/why_suicide

So he killed himself before things got bad? That's pretty twisted...

Lim
08-19-2013, 08:53 PM
We were all brought here against our will, so we should be able to leave earth whenever we please. /thread

b@llhog24
08-19-2013, 09:07 PM
yo that's not cool their is nothing funny about a mans death whoever made this thread kill ya self :mad: close this garbage

Huh?


Honestly I'm going to get blasted for this but I think it's selfish and mentally weak. I understand going out on your own terms but the devastation it's going to cause his family and friends is likely immense. If he got the okay from his family and they came to terms with it fine, but it doesn't seem like that's the case.

Like Tredigs said it sounds like a guy who's fearful of the future. It's idiotic because for all he knows he could live to 85 as healthy as possibly and have countless more good moments in life and maybe even inspire and change a few lives. Again like Tre said if I was his kid, wife etc... I'd be enraged and probably harbor a lot of resentment towards him for a while.

Man up and take life as it comes. Some things suck, some things are great. Feels like a guy who just wanted to stick to the easy years and skip all of the POTENTIALLY hard or bad moments. Coming from my past which I'm sure is significantly worse than this guy's, this kind of seems like a pathetic, scared way to go out.

You should be used to that by now, no?

Clippersfan86
08-19-2013, 09:21 PM
Huh?



You should be used to that by now, no?

Actually it's been a couple months since I've had any drama around here really. Glad we were able to give opposing POV's in this thread without people taking it too far or personally attacking somebody.

HoodedSB
08-19-2013, 09:38 PM
This sounds like one of those writer/poet suicides. Some people have this twisted romantic idea of suicide, and from the suicide note it seems to me that the guy wanted to appear as some kind of a noble martyr.

Zefflin
08-19-2013, 10:11 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_HkQ4-x4P4

Clippersfan86
08-19-2013, 11:00 PM
This sounds like one of those writer/poet suicides. Some people have this twisted romantic idea of suicide, and from the suicide note it seems to me that the guy wanted to appear as some kind of a noble martyr.

Boom. This is what I've argued the most in here.

ThunderousDemon
08-19-2013, 11:28 PM
Thats selfish big time!!!

You know why? Because your only thinking about yourself and what you want and not the feelings and emotions of your loved ones, parents uncles and aunts who love you wholeheartedly and if you got a wife and kids wow big time coward.

You think he cares, he's dead.

Laker Legend42
08-20-2013, 07:55 AM
Wow.

My thoughts exactly.

jp611
08-20-2013, 08:04 AM
I dare some of you to deal with depression, anxiety, or some other mental disorder

Then tell me how selfish suicide is

Mental health disorders suck ***... As a nurse, and someone who deals with anxiety himself... I find it judgmental and wrong to judge these people who are going through what they are going through... I wouldn't wish my anxiety upon anyone, it can be extremely debilitating at times and it takes EVERYTHING for me to get out of those states of mind where I'm feeling doom, guilt, etc.

Don't judge, people.

D-Leethal
08-20-2013, 09:12 AM
I tried to stay away from this one because I don't really think our opinion on suicide belongs in the NBA forum but it is a pretty interesting thread. I am sort of on the fence on this one. I share the same sentiments that I do not want to be alive to watch myself rot in old age - seen it with too many family members how awful/painful/miserable those final years can be. But I also think its a selfish if you have a family that depends on you. I have seen both sides - with my grandparents who are currently living in pain and require daily assistance from family/nurses and I have had to family members commit suicide and seen the way it can devastate and traumatize families. I will refrain from giving a solid opinion in either direction but I think depending on circumstances, either side of the fence can be justified.

As selfish as it may be to leave your family, you could argue its equally selfish to expect them to cook your food, do your laundry, help you **** and piss, shower/bathe you, clean your diapers when they have their own children, families, jobs to also attend to. It really depends on the circumstances - if you have young kids/fully grown adults, if you are in your 40s and scared of what the future holds or your 70s and your body has already began deteriorating with no end in sight etc...

I do think that if the circumstances justify it, there is something commendable about leaving on your own terms.

Guppyfighter
08-20-2013, 12:35 PM
I tried to stay away from this one because I don't really think our opinion on suicide belongs in the NBA forum but it is a pretty interesting thread. I am sort of on the fence on this one. I share the same sentiments that I do not want to be alive to watch myself rot in old age - seen it with too many family members how awful/painful/miserable those final years can be. But I also think its a selfish if you have a family that depends on you. I have seen both sides - with my grandparents who are currently living in pain and require daily assistance from family/nurses and I have had to family members commit suicide and seen the way it can devastate and traumatize families. I will refrain from giving a solid opinion in either direction but I think depending on circumstances, either side of the fence can be justified.

As selfish as it may be to leave your family, you could argue its equally selfish to expect them to cook your food, do your laundry, help you **** and piss, shower/bathe you, clean your diapers when they have their own children, families, jobs to also attend to. It really depends on the circumstances - if you have young kids/fully grown adults, if you are in your 40s and scared of what the future holds or your 70s and your body has already began deteriorating with no end in sight etc...

I do think that if the circumstances justify it, there is something commendable about leaving on your own terms.

He has no family.

D-Leethal
08-20-2013, 12:40 PM
He has no family.

Than to me, I don't really have a problem with that. I mean your supposed to 'control your own destiny' right?

Clippersfan86
08-20-2013, 04:46 PM
Than to me, I don't really have a problem with that. I mean your supposed to 'control your own destiny' right?

Control is life's biggest illusion. The sooner you realize how little control you actually have, the better life gets. People drive themselves to madness and depression trying to control everything. The idea of "I have to control my destiny!!" and forcing things in this manner is one of the most weird things to me personally. It's all driven by ego and anything that's driven purely by ego leads to failure and destruction.

JNA17
08-20-2013, 05:04 PM
I dare some of you to deal with depression, anxiety, or some other mental disorder

Then tell me how selfish suicide is

I have delt with it, lived through it, and moved on. I can even say without a hint of dishonesty that I have delt with worse than that prick has ever had to deal with in his life.

I'm not going to sit here and type my life here to a bunch of strangers who's real purpose here is to talk about sports, but what I can say is that whatever the hell was going through this guy's head, suicide was the coward's way out for him.

My entire life I had to go through my entire childhood with a bunch of BS from school and at home. Both personal and academic. At one point, I was pretty close to hanging myself even, but I didn't kick the chair because at the last minute, I thought of the people that did care about me and what else lied in store for me. For better or for worse, I'm going to see what happens to me till the very end.

This selfish prick however, won't get any sympathy from me. Not based on the reasons he wrote on the website anyway. Based on those reasons he thought "suicide" was a good idea, I can say with full confidence that this guy is a coward, and good riddance.

I do however say my prayers for whatever it's worth, go out to his families that cared about him. It's just a shame that the person his people cared and loved for him turned out to be a selfish coward.

D-Leethal
08-20-2013, 05:18 PM
Control is life's biggest illusion. The sooner you realize how little control you actually have, the better life gets. People drive themselves to madness and depression trying to control everything. The idea of "I have to control my destiny!!" and forcing things in this manner is one of the most weird things to me personally. It's all driven by ego and anything that's driven purely by ego leads to failure and destruction.

I think control over yourself and control over others are two completely different stories and should be treated as such. I think the idea that you have control over your own destiny in life is a great thing, I think the idea that you have control over others is an awful thing.

I'm not very religious, so if you don't control your own destiny, who does?

D-Leethal
08-20-2013, 05:20 PM
I have delt with it, lived through it, and moved on. I can even say without a hint of dishonesty that I have delt with worse than that prick has ever had to deal with in his life.

I'm not going to sit here and type my life here to a bunch of strangers who's real purpose here is to talk about sports, but what I can say is that whatever the hell was going through this guy's head, suicide was the coward's way out for him.

My entire life I had to go through my entire childhood with a bunch of BS from school and at home. Both personal and academic. At one point, I was pretty close to hanging myself even, but I didn't kick the chair because at the last minute, I thought of the people that did care about me and what else lied in store for me. For better or for worse, I'm going to see what happens to me till the very end.

This selfish prick however, won't get any sympathy from me. Not based on the reasons he wrote on the website anyway. Based on those reasons he thought "suicide" was a good idea, I can say with full confidence that this guy is a coward, and good riddance.

I do however say my prayers for whatever it's worth, go out to his families that cared about him. It's just a shame that the person his people cared and loved for him turned out to be a selfish coward.

Well apparently he didn't have many, if any, 'people'. If you have a budding young family I would agree with you. If your a loner without any kids, wife, or immediate family I don't.

uprightciti
08-20-2013, 05:23 PM
umm i dont support this but the dude did what HE wanted to do and for that...well RIP

rocket
08-20-2013, 05:27 PM
Seems efficient

JNA17
08-20-2013, 05:41 PM
Well apparently he didn't have many, if any, 'people'. If you have a budding young family I would agree with you. If your a loner without any kids, wife, or immediate family I don't.

Well he's what? 60 years old? His parents might be dead. So the possibilities is either has brothers or sitters, cousins, aunts and/or uncles, a wife, son or daughter, or grandson and/or granddaughter. I forget to mention friends as well but those are harder to come by.

If he had none of those things I mentioned, what better way to live out the rest of your life than to find those things? At his age, he could find love, get married if he does, adopt a kid and treat him/her as his own, retire, travel, go on adventures, etc.

If all else fails, at least kill yourself by being a useful science project or something. I'm sure many of the best scientists in the world could use real live human subjects for testing for the betterment of mankind. That would be going out on top and EFFICIENT. (see what I did there?)

ChicagoJ
08-20-2013, 05:41 PM
The only thing I'd say about this is, as far as I know, none of us knew this guy, his family, or his personal life. So, to judge his situation is basing it off of allot of guesswork and assumptions. I'm not saying I'm for or against what he did, I don't have an opinion on that.

Just saying there is very little we knew about him and drawing conclusions about him being a coward or not is more about the general concept of suicide than about this individual. We don't know his family life, health conditions, etc...

And for what its worth, this has very little to do with sports.

In any case rip to the guy.

Clippersfan86
08-20-2013, 05:49 PM
I think control over yourself and control over others are two completely different stories and should be treated as such. I think the idea that you have control over your own destiny in life is a great thing, I think the idea that you have control over others is an awful thing.

I'm not very religious, so if you don't control your own destiny, who does?

You have free will and make decisions. I never meant to imply God or somebody else controls it for you. I'm simply trying to express that the desire to actively take control of things almost always turns out bad. People that try to control something out of rebellion such as suicide is an ego issue and sad to think about honestly. It's a form of pouting like "Nobody controls my destiny I do!!" so you're going to take your own life.

I was simply stating that control freaks are miserable for a reason often times. They try to control things they shouldn't be trying to or CAN'T control and it's frustrating and miserable for them when they fail constantly. Control what you can, have faith that the rest of your decisions will sort themselves out and they often do. Personally I pray about it and it works itself out EVERY SINGLE time. Since you said you're not "religious" (I hate the use of that word) meditating and just learning to let life flow helps a lot.

Not saying you have an issue with your life, just an example.

Jeffy25
08-20-2013, 05:50 PM
wow

John Walls Era
08-20-2013, 06:13 PM
I commend it. Too many people criticize the option as if a man can't decide what to do with his own life. I agree with his sentiments, I don't want any of those things either, and would rather go out in my prime.

Easier said than done.

But I actually think good for him. Everyone is allowed to be given a choice, as long as they are willing to accept the consequences.

JonnyBushido
08-20-2013, 07:09 PM
I have delt with it, lived through it, and moved on. I can even say without a hint of dishonesty that I have delt with worse than that prick has ever had to deal with in his life.


This selfish prick however, won't get any sympathy from me. Not based on the reasons he wrote on the website anyway. Based on those reasons he thought "suicide" was a good idea, I can say with full confidence that this guy is a coward, and good riddance.

How very arrogant of you to just ASSUME you been through more in your life than this man has in his 60 years. The thought that people like this man take their lives, but we are still stuck with insensitive/selfish people like you makes me weep for humanity. "Good riddance" as if this man deciding to take HIS life somehow affects you. . .


I dare some of you to deal with depression, anxiety, or some other mental disorder

Then tell me how selfish suicide is

Mental health disorders suck ***... As a nurse, and someone who deals with anxiety himself... I find it judgmental and wrong to judge these people who are going through what they are going through... I wouldn't wish my anxiety upon anyone, it can be extremely debilitating at times and it takes EVERYTHING for me to get out of those states of mind where I'm feeling doom, guilt, etc.

Don't judge, people.

I agree. I've met many people that have claimed to go through "depression" or "anxiety", but very few have.

People who say this man is selfish for going out on his own terms should take a look in the mirror. I've witnessed many family members suffer and die a miserable death via cancer, diabetes, etc. For you to say they should stick around because it's tough for YOU to lose them, is itself selfish.

JNA17
08-20-2013, 07:25 PM
How very arrogant of you to just ASSUME you been through more in your life than this man has in his 60 years. The thought that people like this man take their lives, but we are still stuck with insensitive/selfish people like you makes me weep for humanity. "Good riddance" as if this man deciding to take HIS life somehow affects you. . .

People who say this man is selfish for going out on his own terms should take a look in the mirror. I've witnessed many family members suffer and die a miserable death via cancer, diabetes, etc. For you to say they should stick around because it's tough for YOU to lose them, is itself selfish.

Yeah, you're right. I am quite arrogant at times. I can admit that with no hesitation. The only people im sensitive for are the ones who take lives a little more seriously. That man clearly did not. the fact that were stuck with people like you who think suicide is some form of romantic poetry or because "oh he went through some bumps in the road in his life" is an excuse to kill yourself, than I have no respect for you. No, his life doesn't effect mine but at the same time it affects all of us. It affects all of humanity whether you choose to believe or not. If you think otherwise, than who is the insensitive individual now?

Yes because going out in fear of what's in store in the future is REALLY going out in his own terms. No. He gave in to fear and chose the coward's way out. I as well witnessed suffering as well as pain. I have had close friends who one of them had a parent that decided to kill themselves for a very similar reason.

But yes go on, take a good luck in that mirror and send that kind of mention adults and/or children of anywhere that it's ok to give into fear and kill themselves over it. I mean, the future is pretty scary and uncertain, why live through that uncertainty right? Here I'll give you the rope, go nuts!

tr3ymill3r
08-20-2013, 07:30 PM
This is a sad terrible story, but to each his own.

aTinyPanda
08-20-2013, 08:24 PM
Well he's what? 60 years old? His parents might be dead. So the possibilities is either has brothers or sitters, cousins, aunts and/or uncles, a wife, son or daughter, or grandson and/or granddaughter. I forget to mention friends as well but those are harder to come by.

If he had none of those things I mentioned, what better way to live out the rest of your life than to find those things? At his age, he could find love, get married if he does, adopt a kid and treat him/her as his own, retire, travel, go on adventures, etc.

If all else fails, at least kill yourself by being a useful science project or something. I'm sure many of the best scientists in the world could use real live human subjects for testing for the betterment of mankind. That would be going out on top and EFFICIENT. (see what I did there?)

Dude for real.. why don't you take five minutes and figure out his circumstances before you go running your mouth like the end all be all. Or even go back and read what others have already wrote in this thread. We've covered his entire familial and close friends situation already. He had basically no one left to hurt but himself so it's his call.

I get your point and don't disagree or fail to respect it.. but the way you go about attacking him and making yourself sound like some kind of hero because you've been there and made it through is the most egotistical thing I've read in this entire thread. And yes your efficiency joke was super clever and original.

aTinyPanda
08-20-2013, 08:27 PM
Yeah, you're right. I am quite arrogant at times. I can admit that with no hesitation. The only people im sensitive for are the ones who take lives a little more seriously. That man clearly did not. the fact that were stuck with people like you who think suicide is some form of romantic poetry or because "oh he went through some bumps in the road in his life" is an excuse to kill yourself, than I have no respect for you. No, his life doesn't effect mine but at the same time it affects all of us. It affects all of humanity whether you choose to believe or not. If you think otherwise, than who is the insensitive individual now?

Yes because going out in fear of what's in store in the future is REALLY going out in his own terms. No. He gave in to fear and chose the coward's way out. I as well witnessed suffering as well as pain. I have had close friends who one of them had a parent that decided to kill themselves for a very similar reason.

But yes go on, take a good luck in that mirror and send that kind of mention adults and/or children of anywhere that it's ok to give into fear and kill themselves over it. I mean, the future is pretty scary and uncertain, why live through that uncertainty right? Here I'll give you the rope, go nuts!

You should write a book dude.. you know so much about life and how it should be lived. We could all learn a thing or two from you.

Everyone in this thread has managed to keep is civil and keep the good discussion rolling, and then you come in and just talk out of your rear end. Just.. wow.

JNA17
08-20-2013, 09:51 PM
You should write a book dude.. you know so much about life and how it should be lived. We could all learn a thing or two from you.

Everyone in this thread has managed to keep is civil and keep the good discussion rolling, and then you come in and just talk out of your rear end. Just.. wow.

Actually it's funny that you mentioned that...

Really? I come in? How much of the thread have you read? Truthfully? No I know your type you're not going to do that. I'm expecting too much.


Dude for real.. why don't you take five minutes and figure out his circumstances before you go running your mouth like the end all be all. Or even go back and read what others have already wrote in this thread. We've covered his entire familial and close friends situation already. He had basically no one left to hurt but himself so it's his call.

I get your point and don't disagree or fail to respect it.. but the way you go about attacking him and making yourself sound like some kind of hero because you've been there and made it through is the most egotistical thing I've read in this entire thread. And yes your efficiency joke was super clever and original.

I already read and addressed those circumstances but once again your reading comprehension skills are showing.

I was the one attacking? Really? No, I'm done with you. I'm not going to explain myself to you if all your going to do is bait.

JonnyBushido
08-20-2013, 09:56 PM
Yeah, you're right. I am quite arrogant at times. I can admit that with no hesitation. The only people im sensitive for are the ones who take lives a little more seriously. That man clearly did not. the fact that were stuck with people like you who think suicide is some form of romantic poetry or because "oh he went through some bumps in the road in his life" is an excuse to kill yourself, than I have no respect for you. No, his life doesn't effect mine but at the same time it affects all of us. It affects all of humanity whether you choose to believe or not. If you think otherwise, than who is the insensitive individual now?

Yes because going out in fear of what's in store in the future is REALLY going out in his own terms. No. He gave in to fear and chose the coward's way out. I as well witnessed suffering as well as pain. I have had close friends who one of them had a parent that decided to kill themselves for a very similar reason.

But yes go on, take a good luck in that mirror and send that kind of mention adults and/or children of anywhere that it's ok to give into fear and kill themselves over it. I mean, the future is pretty scary and uncertain, why live through that uncertainty right? Here I'll give you the rope, go nuts!


You've obviously missed the point of my post judging by your last two paragraphs. I never said I agreed with how he went out or that I thought it was some sort of "romantic poetry", only that to consider what he did selfish is itself selfish. It was his life to live or not live however he chose, but carry on thinking you know what's best for everyone.

BTW, the bolded part made absolutely zero sense. You get an F for your attempt to sound philosophical and deep.


Dude for real.. why don't you take five minutes and figure out his circumstances before you go running your mouth like the end all be all. Or even go back and read what others have already wrote in this thread. We've covered his entire familial and close friends situation already. He had basically no one left to hurt but himself so it's his call.

I get your point and don't disagree or fail to respect it.. but the way you go about attacking him and making yourself sound like some kind of hero because you've been there and made it through is the most egotistical thing I've read in this entire thread. And yes your efficiency joke was super clever and original.

This.

JonnyBushido
08-20-2013, 09:58 PM
Actually it's funny that you mentioned that...

Really? I come in? How much of the thread have you read? Truthfully? No I know your type you're not going to do that. I'm expecting too much.



I already read and addressed those circumstances but once again your reading comprehension skills are showing.

I was the one attacking? Really? No, I'm done with you. I'm not going to explain myself to you if all your going to do is bait.

Did you not refer to him as a "prick" and "coward"?

cg_la00
08-20-2013, 10:04 PM
You're not going to get blasted for that since I fully agree with you.

There is nothing poetic or justified about this. This is just stupid and selfish of him. Unless the guy was for sure going to have alzheimer's or was sitting in a hospital bed suffering from eating a feeding tube for the rest of his life, then I don't see any reason why this guy should be praised for this kind of action.

The guy is afraid of the future? Well gee wiz so am I! So is a lot of people. I'm afraid and excited at the same of what is going to happen to me as well as all of humanity in the future. Doesn't mean I should give in to that kind of fear and kill myself over it. I mean the guy was only what? 60 years old?

Whatever, usually I would thats terrible and rip or what not, but I'm not. Screw this guy. He never went out on top nor did he ever reach it. He went out as a coward.
fully agree with this post

JNA17
08-20-2013, 10:09 PM
You've obviously missed the point of my post judging by your last two paragraphs. I never said I agreed with how he went out or that I thought it was some sort of "romantic poetry", only that to consider what he did selfish is itself selfish. It was his life to live or not live however he chose, but carry on thinking you know what's best for everyone.

BTW, the bolded part made absolutely zero sense. You get an F for your attempt to sound philosophical and deep.

You're right. You only rambled on and on about how "insensitive" people about how thinking suicide is a bad thing and their is always an excuse for such a thing. That is pretty much 95% of your post. Oh and you want to talk about attacking? Wow.

Oh really? An F? My my! What a terrible grade! Zero sense you say? Would you mind taking the time to explain such a grade? I mean if you're going to play pretend teacher, at least act like one. K thanks.


Did you not refer to him as a "prick" and "coward"?

I refered to the man that killed himself in question as such yes. Not the poster discussing about said topic.

Also I know you're a casual poster here and trying to increase your post count but multi-quoting is possible. Just for future reference.

ricky recon
08-20-2013, 10:14 PM
I commend it. Too many people criticize the option as if a man can't decide what to do with his own life. I agree with his sentiments, I don't want any of those things either, and would rather go out in my prime.

You commend someone committing suicide is demented. That's *** backwards.

smith&wesson
08-20-2013, 10:15 PM
wtf :confused: life isnt like a sport where you simply retire "on top" lol hell in the game of life when you make it to the top you ride it till the sunset. if anything in the game of life you give up when your at the bottom. not the top. lol

home boy thought he was the mj of metric stats lol... didnt want to see anyone surpass him haha.

JNA17
08-20-2013, 10:20 PM
You commend someone committing suicide is demented. That's *** backwards.

This.


wtf :confused: life isnt like a sport where you simply retire "on top" lol hell in the game of life when you make it to the top you ride it till the sunset. if anything in the game of life you give up when your at the bottom. not the top. lol

home boy thought he was the mj of metric stats lol... didnt want to see anyone surpass him haha.

that's a very interesting analogy. Never thought of it like that. I applaud you. :clap:

JonnyBushido
08-20-2013, 10:21 PM
You're right. You only rambled on and on about how "insensitive" people about how thinking suicide is a bad thing and their is always an excuse for such a thing. That is pretty much 95% of your post. Oh and you want to talk about attacking? Wow.

Oh really? An F? My my! What a terrible grade! Zero sense you say? Would you mind taking the time to explain such a grade? I mean if you're going to play pretend teacher, at least act like one. K thanks.



I refered to the man that killed himself in question as such yes. Not the poster discussing about said topic.

Also I know you're a casual poster here and trying to increase your post count but multi-quoting is possible. Just for future reference.

1. Can't tell if trolling or not
2. I didn't ramble in my post. My first response to you was three sentences. Sorry if it was too much for you to read. Also, you're still missing the point of what I'm saying.
3. The grade was just my way of pointing out how ridiculous your statement was
4. My two previously posts were multi-quoted posts so your last sentence is confusing. . .

edit: I wanted to point that that I said YOU were insensitive for calling him a prick, not for thinking his suicide was a bad decision.

JNA17
08-20-2013, 10:44 PM
1. Can't tell if trolling or not
2. I didn't ramble in my post. My first response to you was three sentences. Sorry if it was too much for you to read. Also, you're still missing the point of what I'm saying.
3. The grade was just my way of pointing out how ridiculous your statement was
4. My two previously posts were multi-quoted posts so your last sentence is confusing. . .

edit: I wanted to point that that I said YOU were insensitive for calling him a prick, not for thinking his suicide was a bad decision.

1. Likewise
2. Your argument is in circles. You have yet to explain what the hell your point is.
3. "Ridiculous" how? Again, you're pretending to be a teacher. Teachers have to teach and explain their methods. As well as their grades. You sir, have failed in that regard. So MY grade to you, is an F. The reason being to failing to explain to people your arguments and your points. Please do try again.
4. You multi-quoted a person that you agreed with by posting "this" instead of multi-quoting my other post. I can't keep explaining logic all day my friend.

JonnyBushido
08-20-2013, 10:56 PM
1. Likewise
2. Your argument is in circles. You have yet to explain what the hell your point is.
3. "Ridiculous" how? Again, you're pretending to be a teacher. Teachers have to teach and explain their methods. As well as their grades. You sir, have failed in that regard. So MY grade to you, is an F. The reason being to failing to explain to people your arguments and your points. Please do try again.
4. You multi-quoted a person that you agreed with by posting "this" instead of multi-quoting my other post. I can't keep explaining logic all day my friend.


edit: nvm :facepalm: I'm done. Lol

static_inferno
08-21-2013, 01:56 AM
I doubt anyone's family would give the okay for a loved one to kill his/herself. In the end, however, it was his decision. We can judge, we can approve, we can lament, we can criticize, but no one can say how someone should live (or in this case end) their life. We don't know what is best for someone else. We cannot say what will make another happy. It's obvious he thought about it for a while and made a solid, coherent decision on his own terms. I think there is a comforting feeling for someone who has complete control over his/her life, knowing the exact day, time, and place where they finally want to rest. Me, personally, I don't think I can ever pull that trigger. When I'm old, I'm content with smoking some good herbs and visiting exotic places until my last days. That is what would make me happy. For Martin Manley, taking his life on his 60th birthday is what made him happy. It may be selfish, or it may be commendable. It may be whatever adjective you can think of. In the end, it was his way.


Honestly I'm going to get blasted for this but I think it's selfish and mentally weak. I understand going out on your own terms but the devastation it's going to cause his family and friends is likely immense. If he got the okay from his family and they came to terms with it fine, but it doesn't seem like that's the case.

Like Tredigs said it sounds like a guy who's fearful of the future. It's idiotic because for all he knows he could live to 85 as healthy as possibly and have countless more good moments in life and maybe even inspire and change a few lives. Again like Tre said if I was his kid, wife etc... I'd be enraged and probably harbor a lot of resentment towards him for a while.

Man up and take life as it comes. Some things suck, some things are great. Feels like a guy who just wanted to stick to the easy years and skip all of the POTENTIALLY hard or bad moments. Coming from my past which I'm sure is significantly worse than this guy's, this kind of seems like a pathetic, scared way to go out.

aTinyPanda
08-21-2013, 02:13 AM
Actually it's funny that you mentioned that...

Really? I come in? How much of the thread have you read? Truthfully? No I know your type you're not going to do that. I'm expecting too much.


LOL. C'mon man I know you're not going to call me out for not reading the thread.. or for showing up out of nowhere when you clearly haven't read anything that happened prior to your sage like posts. You know my type? Meaning the type that would barge in and spew a bunch of hate without reading anything else about the situation, other than what you want to see so you can justify your position? Right? Better go back and read from page 1... might realize your last statement was quite misguided.

I've been interacting with people in this thread and we've all been respectful of each others views. You on the other hand, came in and wrote a huge bait piece that also painted you in this incredible light of success and triumph over personal anguish, while diminishing anyone else in the history of the world who hasn't had success dealing with personal problems. You're just acting like an egomaniac with a keyboard. Give me a break dude. You've started a fight with like 3 people already in here, and instead of reading their responses and considering their position you're attacking their semantics, throwing out ad hominems, or attempting to dismiss legit rebuttals by simply saying they don't make sense (which isn't true, I've read all the replies.. you're choosing to overlook their central points). I would even be willing to bet that when you respond to this, your knee jerk reaction would be to disregard the bulk of the paragraph and bold the sentence where I called you an egomaniac... and then call me a hypocrite and move on. That just seems to be your argument style.

I've said what I wanted to, and you obviously have no interest in having a real discussion so I'm not going to respond again. Basically, my only point from the jump was that you should maybe dial back the mud slinging (on people you've never met, and have no idea about) and just share your opinion without all the anger. There's zero need for it, and I kinda have a feeling you know all too well when you're doing it and enjoy the response. It's whatever. Enjoy being angry.

Guppyfighter
08-21-2013, 03:07 AM
Fifty percent of the this thread doesn't know what empathy means or experience it.

Oldmantrash
08-21-2013, 03:12 AM
Killing yourself is a very selfish act if you have people that love you, and care about you.
If you have no friends or family, then maybe there is no more reason to live, if you accomplished what you want.
It's all relative.

Guppyfighter
08-21-2013, 03:22 AM
**** the selfish angle.

Why is it selfish to put your own agenda ahead of others? Isn't it selfish to expect someone to put your own agenda ahead of theirs.

tredigs
08-21-2013, 03:41 AM
**** the selfish angle.

Why is it selfish to put your own agenda ahead of others? Isn't it selfish to expect someone to put your own agenda ahead of theirs.

When that personal agenda can massively effect said others around you in a negative way, well, that is just about the prototype for selfishness. You can argue that it's okay to be selfish, but it fits the definition pretty well.

I'm talking in generalities here and not in relation to Manley in particular.

Zefflin
08-21-2013, 04:58 AM
Why is it selfish to put your own agenda ahead of others? Isn't it selfish to expect someone to put your own agenda ahead of theirs.

And what of the person with no hidden agendas? His agenda was to be truly authentic and have no hidden agendas because his agendas are uncovered...what of him?


When that personal agenda can massively effect said others around you in a negative way, well, that is just about the prototype for selfishness. You can argue that it's okay to be selfish, but it fits the definition pretty well.

Like the guy said it's all relative so be aware when defining you definitions...especially one as complicated as the deluded word selfish... To be ones Self, is my definition for that word selfish...nothing wrong about being yourself...

That's just a little of my opinion.

torocan
08-21-2013, 09:25 AM
Well, was going to stay out of this thread but some interesting viewpoints.

In the end, my take on it is this. This man isn't a hero, nor is he a villain. He's just a man that felt he was losing control of his life (dementia) and felt that he wanted to control how his life would end.

Is that selfish? Of course.

However, I would argue that the only thing a man truly owns is himself. Money can come and go, friends and loved ones may or may not stay around, your job disappear at any time, but your mind and body is yours and yours alone. Is it necessarily wrong to be "selfish" when it comes to your own existence?

I find it fascinating the concept of "clinging to life" regardless of circumstance, the idea that each person should attempt to live out their life as long as possible regardless of health or mental state, even when you become a significant burden on your family and society, even when you aren't conscious or cease to exist as a self-aware being.

I can't speak for everyone but for me my mind is the thing I value the most. Physical health and degeneration I'm fine with, but if my mind were going such as through Alzheimer's or Dementia I would seriously consider exiting on my own terms. If I were in severe perpetual pain I wouldn't be surprised if I considered it as well.

This man had Dementia. He believed his mind would degenerate and that he would gradually lose his mind and sense of self. Was he afraid of that? Of course. However, isn't the loss of sense of self, of one's mind and faculties no different than death in many ways?

Can a person truly be said to be "alive" if they are unaware of their own identities? If they can not recognize their friends and loved ones? If they can not pursue those intellectual pursuits that give them joy and happiness due to deteriorating memory and cognitive ability?

Isn't there also an additional element of selfishness to hope and wish that those people linger in life simply because we want them not to go?

Sure, one can sit back and say that such a person could still live a meaningful life, but isn't there just as much if not a greater chance that the rest of their life would not be meaningful had they tried to cling to life?

I can't speak for who this man is or what existed in his mind. All we have is a few scribbles on his website where he attempts to voice his reasoning.

This is a man who made a choice. A choice that some may consider morally wrong or even a sin, but in the end it was his choice to make. Above all the choice of life and death, of how we live and how we die is something that should be left to each to decide on their own.

Zefflin
08-21-2013, 02:28 PM
Indeed.

Clippersfan86
08-21-2013, 05:38 PM
Fifty percent of the this thread doesn't know what empathy means or experience it.

Why resort to making such massive personal assumptions about people? Every single day I give something to somebody in need and unlike most people have always and would ALWAYS jump in to help a stranger in a bad situation. Yet I'm maybe the most strongly opposed when it comes to what this man did in this thread. Meaning I'd likely be one of the main ones you're accusing of lacking empathy, when that's so far from the truth.

In fact my entire career has been spent helping seniors, the disabled, the homeless. I have more empathy and drive to help people than most people I've met. I just don't like how people are using this to portray some type of heroism or bravery when it's in fact the EXACT opposite. Based on his writings he was SCARED of the future and sure as hell isn't a martyr.

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-21-2013, 05:40 PM
Suicide is for the weak.

tredigs
08-21-2013, 05:49 PM
Why resort to making such massive personal assumptions about people? Every single day I give something to somebody in need and unlike most people have always and would ALWAYS jump in to help a stranger in a bad situation. Yet I'm maybe the most strongly opposed when it comes to what this man did in this thread. Meaning I'd likely be one of the main ones you're accusing of lacking empathy, when that's so far from the truth.

In fact my entire career has been spent helping seniors, the disabled, the homeless. I have more empathy and drive to help people than most people I've met. I just don't like how people are using this to portray some type of heroism or bravery when it's in fact the EXACT opposite. Based on his writings he was SCARED of the future and sure as hell isn't a martyr.

Just to play devils advocate and enter a new dynamic, overpopulation and the advent of stringing along near death humans for years - sometimes over a decade - is a massive drain on the economy and even families lives that did and could not have existed 60+ years ago. He did not want to be one of those people (I'm definitely not judging those that want to fight as long as possible, it's just not "efficient" for the greater community), and in that regard I can understand the decision.

nycericanguy
08-21-2013, 05:57 PM
I hope he did it quick and efficiently...

Clippersfan86
08-21-2013, 06:07 PM
Just to play devils advocate and enter a new dynamic, overpopulation and the advent of stringing along near death humans for years - sometimes over a decade - is a massive drain on the economy and even families lives that did and could not have existed 60+ years ago. He did not want to be one of those people (I'm definitely not judging those that want to fight as long as possible, it's just not "efficient" for the greater community), and in that regard I can understand the decision.

Well... my issue personally wasn't the actual suicide as much as how early it was and the circumstances. As I said I would be far less critical if the guy was already burdening the system and in a terrible mental or physical state. He claims to have been getting the start of dementia but didn't write anything proving it. I just think this was by all accounts a seemingly healthy guy. Dementia like Alzheimer's can take decades to truly progress to a crippling form in most cases.

I just felt like he was justifying it any way he can. If he just flat out admitted in upfront terms "I'm scared of the future and feel like I don't have much to live for so I'm going to just end it on my own terms", at least I'd respect the honesty. But to word things in an egotistical way and come off trying to sound heroic... rubs me the wrong way. Say it like it is, don't sugarcoat.

D-Leethal
08-21-2013, 06:36 PM
Well, was going to stay out of this thread but some interesting viewpoints.

In the end, my take on it is this. This man isn't a hero, nor is he a villain. He's just a man that felt he was losing control of his life (dementia) and felt that he wanted to control how his life would end.

Is that selfish? Of course.

However, I would argue that the only thing a man truly owns is himself. Money can come and go, friends and loved ones may or may not stay around, your job disappear at any time, but your mind and body is yours and yours alone. Is it necessarily wrong to be "selfish" when it comes to your own existence?

I find it fascinating the concept of "clinging to life" regardless of circumstance, the idea that each person should attempt to live out their life as long as possible regardless of health or mental state, even when you become a significant burden on your family and society, even when you aren't conscious or cease to exist as a self-aware being.

I can't speak for everyone but for me my mind is the thing I value the most. Physical health and degeneration I'm fine with, but if my mind were going such as through Alzheimer's or Dementia I would seriously consider exiting on my own terms. If I were in severe perpetual pain I wouldn't be surprised if I considered it as well.

This man had Dementia. He believed his mind would degenerate and that he would gradually lose his mind and sense of self. Was he afraid of that? Of course. However, isn't the loss of sense of self, of one's mind and faculties no different than death in many ways?

Can a person truly be said to be "alive" if they are unaware of their own identities? If they can not recognize their friends and loved ones? If they can not pursue those intellectual pursuits that give them joy and happiness due to deteriorating memory and cognitive ability?

Isn't there also an additional element of selfishness to hope and wish that those people linger in life simply because we want them not to go?

Sure, one can sit back and say that such a person could still live a meaningful life, but isn't there just as much if not a greater chance that the rest of their life would not be meaningful had they tried to cling to life?

I can't speak for who this man is or what existed in his mind. All we have is a few scribbles on his website where he attempts to voice his reasoning.

This is a man who made a choice. A choice that some may consider morally wrong or even a sin, but in the end it was his choice to make. Above all the choice of life and death, of how we live and how we die is something that should be left to each to decide on their own.

Drop a gem on 'em Toro. Good stuff right there.

Completely agree with the bold. Definitely makes you think...

Clippersfan86
08-21-2013, 06:41 PM
People need to stop talking in scenarios and talking based on the facts we know. Speculation of him being a burden based on the very beginning of a mental illness that can take decades to truly develop to a level of burden or crippling? Jeez. The guy wasn't suffering by any means based on what we know. He was just afraid of what COULD be in the future. Stop complicating it. I can't imagine how crippling it would be to live life based on what bad things COULD happen. The idea of that is actually quite pathetic. Take one day at a time, try to be productive and do some good for others while making yourself better. It's pointless to fear what you can't control.

Guppyfighter
08-21-2013, 06:56 PM
Why resort to making such massive personal assumptions about people? Every single day I give something to somebody in need and unlike most people have always and would ALWAYS jump in to help a stranger in a bad situation. Yet I'm maybe the most strongly opposed when it comes to what this man did in this thread. Meaning I'd likely be one of the main ones you're accusing of lacking empathy, when that's so far from the truth.

In fact my entire career has been spent helping seniors, the disabled, the homeless. I have more empathy and drive to help people than most people I've met. I just don't like how people are using this to portray some type of heroism or bravery when it's in fact the EXACT opposite. Based on his writings he was SCARED of the future and sure as hell isn't a martyr.

Sympathy and Empathy are not the same. I believe you are a good person. I don't believe you know what it's like to be in another person shoes if they have drastically different circumstances.

Clippersfan86
08-21-2013, 07:10 PM
Sympathy and Empathy are not the same. I believe you are a good person. I don't believe you know what it's like to be in another person shoes if they have drastically different circumstances.

I understand they are different, but I can tell you I'm personally not helping people out of sympathy but rather out of empathy or I suppose maybe both in some circumstances. I always try to see things from another perspective and truly relate to others so I'm definitely empathetic as well. There are some situations though where "tough love" and a different approach is needed. There are also situations where I obviously can't relate to (committing suicide for fear of the future) because of who I am and I realize that. I can't relate to having a successful life and still wanting to kill yourself because it's more efficient, no. I doubt anybody here can though.

The one thing I haven't done in here is pretend to be experienced with suicide for myself. All I can go on is relatives/friends who have killed themselves and my own studies about the psychology of it. I understand most people can't merely shake off depression etc. Thing is unless I misunderstood his writings he doesn't seem to be making this decision out of depression or any mental illness. He's making the decision based on a mindset of "efficiency" and that shouldn't be defended or looked at in a positive way.

I never said suicide is never justified, just that THIS particular case it seems completely illogical, shortsighted and not justified. I understand we will all differ on when it is justified and I have given some examples. If you're dying slowly in agony I understand it. Not because you're worried about the future. He's killing himself based on some pretty big assumptions. Like I said yesterday what if the guy would have went on to live till 80 or more before the Dementia really took it's toll on him and he changed a ton of lives on the way out?

Guppyfighter
08-21-2013, 07:42 PM
I understand they are different, but I can tell you I'm personally not helping people out of sympathy but rather out of empathy or I suppose maybe both in some circumstances. I always try to see things from another perspective and truly relate to others so I'm definitely empathetic as well. There are some situations though where "tough love" and a different approach is needed. There are also situations where I obviously can't relate to (committing suicide for fear of the future) because of who I am and I realize that. I can't relate to having a successful life and still wanting to kill yourself because it's more efficient, no. I doubt anybody here can though.

The one thing I haven't done in here is pretend to be experienced with suicide for myself. All I can go on is relatives/friends who have killed themselves and my own studies about the psychology of it. I understand most people can't merely shake off depression etc. Thing is unless I misunderstood his writings he doesn't seem to be making this decision out of depression or any mental illness. He's making the decision based on a mindset of "efficiency" and that shouldn't be defended or looked at in a positive way.

I never said suicide is never justified, just that THIS particular case it seems completely illogical, shortsighted and not justified. I understand we will all differ on when it is justified and I have given some examples. If you're dying slowly in agony I understand it. Not because you're worried about the future. He's killing himself based on some pretty big assumptions. Like I said yesterday what if the guy would have went on to live till 80 or more before the Dementia really took it's toll on him and he changed a ton of lives on the way out?


You didn't need to go on a huge diatribe, clippers. All you had to say "you are right, I don't have empathy for this man."

Clippersfan86
08-21-2013, 07:48 PM
You didn't need to go on a huge diatribe, clippers. All you had to say "you are right, I don't have empathy for this man."

Fine, I don't have empathy for this specific situation.

Kushed
08-21-2013, 09:05 PM
Wow. Was not expecting that. My two thoughts:

Either he really felt that way and was completely satisfied with his decision

or

He was mentally unstable and thought that was why he was doing it when in reality he was just afraid of the future

NJrockPD
08-21-2013, 09:13 PM
yo that's not cool their is nothing funny about a mans death whoever made this thread kill ya self :mad: close this garbage

So there is nothing funny about a man's death and you follow that by telling him to kill himself. You are hilarious. Not intentionally.

Pablonovi
08-21-2013, 09:24 PM
Both my parents effectively chose to end their lives rather than continue on in a decidedly weakened condition. One was in their 60's, the other in their 80's. While I felt deeply sad that they had left, I completely agreed with their reasoning and with their right to decide. This greatly helped me to recover. (We should all keep this in mind when considering the potential suffering of loved ones.)

One time, I was just about to give up during a drowning in a rip-tide, I was just exhausted (45 minutes of swimming all out and not even approaching the shore). What saved me was I thought about loved ones and tears just jumped out of my eyes. It was gonna put a big time hurt on them. I decided I couldn't do that to them.

I'm in my 60s and been totally and happily gods-less for about 50 years.

I'm still plenty healthy (physically anyway; by the quality of my posts may ye judge my mental health - heh). And all my adult life I've tried hard (and successfully) to help others more than myself. I dedicated a good 40 hours a week for a decade to ending the totally unjustified slaughter (by the U.S. Gov.) of innocents in Vietnam/Indo-China. More recently, I have significantly helped many people who were down, even suicidal (especially due to death-in-the-family). I counsel them about why they should keep living because other loved ones still need them; and about how they can get themselves back together again so they can effectively do that.

When I was a lot younger I believed strongly that suicide is always cowardly. I haven't agreed with that view for most of my life though. I see that former attitude as arrogance on my part.

I believe now that those facing serious degradation of their lives (mentally and/or physically); especially older people facing that situation have every right to die on their own terms. On the other hand, most suicides, (most of which are statistically committed by young people), are "mistakes"; meaning, their reasoning is too one-sided.

When a society such as ours has such a high suicide rate (especially amongst the young); when this involves millions, then it can NOT just be a personal problem (or just bad parenting); it means the system itself is blinding our youth of their own potential; which must mean that lots of preventable bad stuff is allowed to go on; and, our young can't see a realistic way to use their natural idealism to change things for the better. What a shame!

The one group society could most do without, those who cause lots of suffering to lots of others (mostly the 1%-ers) - are exactly the type that does NOT kill themselves. They've got a taste for it; they were mostly born to super-rich families and/or got super-rich themselves off the sweat, labor and suffering of tons of others.

I would NOT put myself in judgement of anyone else (from the 99%) who decided to take their lives; how the heck could I know enough of their personal lives? AND how could I presume to be so much more morally-righteous than they?

dnl123
08-21-2013, 09:26 PM
You don't commit suicide unless you have deeply rooted insecurities about multiple things. Ending your life is not a logically thought out alternative, ever. It's the alternative of someone trying to escape pressures, insecurities, pains, fears, and personal problems. It's very sad that people choose not to live rather than finding help for these issues. Prayers for his family who is probably heartbroken.

Pablonovi
08-21-2013, 09:54 PM
You don't commit suicide unless you have deeply rooted insecurities about multiple things. Ending your life is not a logically thought out alternative, ever. It's the alternative of someone trying to escape pressures, insecurities, pains, fears, and personal problems. It's very sad that people choose not to live rather than finding help for these issues. Prayers for his family who is probably heartbroken.

Hey dnl123,
If you thought about it a little more you might not take this stand.
What about:
1)Someone who intentionally or not, takes some substance (medication, other pills, drugs, etc); and takes their life because of badly blinded judgement? It happens (for example, Big Pharma has produced zillions of anti-depressant meds that provoke suicide!)
2) People kill themselves frequently soon after the death of a most-loved one. (Another case of NOT "having deeply rooted problems with multiple things".
3) Other examples that various posters (including myself) have given that don't match your "criteria".

Clippersfan86
08-21-2013, 10:01 PM
Hey dnl123,
If you thought about it a little more you might not take this stand.
What about:
1)Someone who intentionally or not, takes some substance (medication, other pills, drugs, etc); and takes their life because of badly blinded judgement? It happens (for example, Big Pharma has produced zillions of anti-depressant meds that provoke suicide!)
2) People kill themselves frequently soon after the death of a most-loved one. (Another case of NOT "having deeply rooted problems with multiple things".
3) Other examples that various posters (including myself) have given that don't match your "criteria".

More irrelevant examples of scenarios that didn't apply to this guy. Everybody defending his actions like yourself is giving pure speculation of what COULD have happened. For all we know this was a completely healthy 60 year old man and based on his writings didn't seem depressed. He claims to suspect he has the very beginning signs of Dementia but as I said earlier that often times takes decades to get bad enough to actually severely alter your life (much like Alzheimer's).

1. He wasn't heavily medicated that we know of.

2. He didn't recently lose anybody significant recently based on the fact that apparently he had no wife or kids and his parents were long dead.

3. He wasn't suffering from depression or mental illness based on the information we have at least.


The excuses you and others are giving for suicide in general don't apply to this guy from the looks of it.

Pablonovi
08-21-2013, 10:12 PM
More irrelevant examples of scenarios that didn't apply to this guy. Everybody defending his actions like yourself is giving pure speculation of what COULD have happened. For all we know this was a completely healthy 60 year old man and based on his writings didn't seem depressed. He claims to suspect he has the very beginning signs of Dementia but as I said earlier that often times takes decades to get bad enough to actually severely alter your life (much like Alzheimer's).

1. He wasn't heavily medicated that we know of.

2. He didn't recently lose anybody significant recently based on the fact that apparently he had no wife or kids and his parents were long dead.

3. He wasn't suffering from depression or mental illness based on the information we have at least.


The excuses you and others are giving for suicide in general don't apply to this guy from the looks of it.

Hey ClippersFan,
You kind of, sort of, totally missed my point.
In that post, I was NOT addressing this guy! I was addressing the specific things said by the previous poster, dnl123, i.e., he was characterizing the general reasons for suicide which I believe are way too general and outright incorrect in way too many cases.

It's almost like you didn't read my post, or didn't understand it because (if I may venture a guess), you are a little too intent (intense) on making your point.

Perhaps, you could re-read what I said and keep in mind why (to what post) I said it?

Pablonovi
08-21-2013, 10:17 PM
http://deadspin.com/nba-efficiency-rating-inventor-kills-self-explains-via-1154741280?utm_campaign=socialflow_deadspin_facebo ok&utm_source=deadspin_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

Hes labeled as an inventor of the NBA's "Efficiency Rating" but his set of linear weights are unpractical and pretty much the butt of all metrics. Not trying to bash the guys legacy, this really isn't about that, its more about your thoughts on this kind of suicide:

http://www.zeroshare.info/why_suicide

Hey High Horse,
I'm interested to know if you anticipated in any way what has in fact happened in response to your OP?
imo Perhaps one of the deepest and most-mature discussions we have had on PSD-NBA.

You've been known (on occasion hehe) to egg others on; but this time I believe you've provoked more unity due to you challenging all of us to think about a more serious issue. Nice.
Pablo

Pablonovi
08-21-2013, 11:14 PM
[SNIP] Prayers for his family who is probably heartbroken.

I was raised a strongly Christian Catholic, even went to a High School seminary to study to be a Catholic Priest. So I used to pray constantly. And then one day I asked myself a 3-part questions:
1) "If God is all-knowing then why am I praying to him?" Afterall, if he/she exists and is all-knowing then he already knows what has happened and/or is going to happen (for example, in this case: (if anything) to "his family who is probably heartbroken")."
2) "If God is all-powerful, then my prayers can NOT influence him/her; so again, why pray, it's a waste of time."
3) "If God is all-loving, it's arrogance on my part to believe I am more loving and know better than he/she what is best by trying to pray that he/she change his/her all-loving mind."

Then there's the scientific studies where "the power of prayer" was tested to see, for example, if it DID aid sick people get well. And the result has always been the same, "praying to God does NOT work; prayers don't get answered."

And in every human war, when both sides are praying to God for THEIR side, how does God deal with that? Does God, can God take sides in wars, where, inevitably innocents are slaughtered???

And then, what if the god you believe in is not really the one true god; or only one of many? Afterall most human beings don't believe in your god, do they? And they believe just as firmly as you do that theirs is the only, one and true god. So, IF they are right, then you are wrong and you have even less reason to pray to a god that isn't even the right one. Right? What if there's more than one God (as people believed for most of human history - whether one believes we've been around for only 6,000 years or some 200,000 years like I do)?

I don't mean in any way, shape or form to offend you. But you DID mention "prayers" for his family, right? And the man WAS a supposed authority on efficiency, right? So, I should be able to question the efficiency of praying for his family, shouldn't I. Even if it could be proven that I was wrong; the question should be allowed to be asked, no?

Lastly, we've had it reported to us in this very thread, that he basically doesn't have any loved ones (his only relatives being out-of-contact). So they probably don't need your/our well-wishes and/or prayers, no? Maybe the reason they are out of contact is because they hate him?

aTinyPanda
08-21-2013, 11:23 PM
More irrelevant examples of scenarios that didn't apply to this guy. Everybody defending his actions like yourself is giving pure speculation of what COULD have happened. For all we know this was a completely healthy 60 year old man and based on his writings didn't seem depressed. He claims to suspect he has the very beginning signs of Dementia but as I said earlier that often times takes decades to get bad enough to actually severely alter your life (much like Alzheimer's).

1. He wasn't heavily medicated that we know of.

2. He didn't recently lose anybody significant recently based on the fact that apparently he had no wife or kids and his parents were long dead.

3. He wasn't suffering from depression or mental illness based on the information we have at least.


The excuses you and others are giving for suicide in general don't apply to this guy from the looks of it.

Again, I don't like calling anyone out in this thread (except for that guy earlier that was being a complete blow hole) just to be clear.

But I think, in regards to the sentence I have in bold above, after reading all of his writings it's pretty clear he was suffering with severe depression about the fact that his mind was starting to degenerate (according to him) and that the world was going to **** (again, according to his perspective.. which is all that is really worth referencing or discussing in this context).

Just adding that to the discussion. He had his reasons, and he spelled them out clearly in his writings. You can disagree with them, and many do, but when it comes down to it a man's life is his and his alone.

tredigs
08-21-2013, 11:33 PM
Again, I don't like calling anyone out in this thread (except for that guy earlier that was being a complete blow hole) just to be clear.

But I think, in regards to the sentence I have in bold above, after reading all of his writings it's pretty clear he was suffering with severe depression about the fact that his mind was starting to degenerate (according to him) and that the world was going to **** (again, according to his perspective.. which is all that is really worth referencing or discussing in this context).

Just adding that to the discussion. He had his reasons, and he spelled them out clearly in his writings. You can disagree with them, and many do, but when it comes down to it a man's life is his and his alone.

What did you read that insinuated or stated his mind was going? I ran through some of his site, and all I got was the fear of that occurring, but not that it had begun or any indications it would.

From everything I gathered, it was just about the fact that he felt that his contributions to society were ultimately useless ("a blip on the map" as he put it) and at this point (going past 60) in diminishing returns. And beyond that, that he though that any reasons to live (which he acknowledged were plenty) were not enough to offset what he thought would become his personal drain on society (economically or on his family if he needed personal aid, etc.).

Basically, he just ended it before anything got tough on him or his friends/family (what little of that existed).

He strikes me as a loner that probably did take efficiency and analytics to a level that ultimately he saw fit as reason enough to end his life. Like I've said a few times, not how I'd like to see my friends or family view their life, but so be it.

aTinyPanda
08-21-2013, 11:36 PM
I was raised a strongly Christian Catholic, even went to a High School seminary to study to be a Catholic Priest. So I used to pray constantly. And then one day I asked myself a 3-part questions:
1) "If God is all-knowing then why am I praying to him?" Afterall, if he/she exists and is all-knowing then he already knows what has happened and/or is going to happen (for example, in this case: (if anything) to "his family who is probably heartbroken")."
2) "If God is all-powerful, then my prayers can NOT influence him/her; so again, why pray, it's a waste of time."
3) "If God is all-loving, it's arrogance on my part to believe I am more loving and know better than he/she what is best by trying to pray that he/she change his/her all-loving mind."

Then there's the scientific studies where "the power of prayer" was tested to see, for example, if it DID aid sick people get well. And the result has always been the same, "praying to God does NOT work; prayers don't get answered."

And in every human war, when both sides are praying to God for THEIR side, how does God deal with that? Does God, can God take sides in wars, where, inevitably innocents are slaughtered???

And then, what if the god you believe in is not really the one true god; or only one of many? Afterall most human beings don't believe in your god, do they? And they believe just as firmly as you do that theirs is the only, one and true god. So, IF they are right, then you are wrong and you have even less reason to pray to a god that isn't even the right one. Right? What if there's more than one God (as people believed for most of human history - whether one believes we've been around for only 6,000 years or some 200,000 years like I do)?

I don't mean in any way, shape or form to offend you. But you DID mention "prayers" for his family, right? And the man WAS a supposed authority on efficiency, right? So, I should be able to question the efficiency of praying for his family, shouldn't I. Even if it could be proven that I was wrong; the question should be allowed to be asked, no?

Lastly, we've had it reported to us in this very thread, that he basically doesn't have any loved ones (his only relatives being out-of-contact). So they probably don't need your/our well-wishes and/or prayers, no? Maybe the reason they are out of contact is because they hate him?

I largely agree with your sentiment, and am in the same boat as far as being formerly religious in a major way and turning to an internal search rather than looking for answers from major religions.

I do however think there is something to be said for the concentration and meditation involved with prayer. This is somewhat off topic, but I was just compelled to respond since you brought it up. It may not be effective in a physical manifestation sort of way, but is without question therapeutic. Essentially, if prayer is done the way it was described originally by Christian and Islamic leaders... in practical terms it manifests itself more as an internal dialogue with one's subconscious and forces the individual to question and reflect on their desires, actions, and goals.

To me.. prayer in a Christian and more so in an Islamic context (because of the ritual involved) is "directed meditation".. wherein the person praying is directing their prayers to an entity they believe is there to help them work out their purpose. I feel they are really just having an intimate dialogue with their own psyche.. and working themselves out.

Now, in terms of modern "prayer" where folks ask their God to make them rich and powerful, generally selfish wishes, is not even prayer in the original sense and as such is just.. not even worth discussing to me. as it has zero roots in any type of true philosophy. It's just humans doing what humans have always done basically... want all of the things, lol.

aTinyPanda
08-21-2013, 11:41 PM
What did you read that insinuated or stated his mind was going? I ran through some of his site, and all I got was the fear of that occurring, but not that it had begun or any indications it would.

From everything I gathered, it was just about the that he felt that his contributions to society were ultimately useless ("a blip on the map" as he put it) and at this point (going past 60) in diminishing returns. And beyond that, that he though that any reasons to live (which he acknowledged were plenty) were not enough to offset what he thought would become his personal drain on society (economically or on his family if he lost he needed aid, etc.).

Basically, he just ended it before anything got tough on him or his friends/family (what little of that existed).

He strikes me as a loner that probably did take efficiency and analytics to a level that ultimately he saw fit as reason enough to end his life. Like I've said a few times, not how I'd like to see my friends or family view their life, but so be it.

He stated on a few occasions that he had witness people close to him's minds go slowly, and that he never wanted that for himself. He then goes on to mention that lately, he needs to read things 5 times just to remember the content, when before it would only take him a once over. He also mentions one anecdote where he describes watching a movie and thoroughly enjoying it. He then went through the process of writing an entire review for the movie. When he went to post the review on rotten tomatoes, he found under his account a review posted by him not long ago of that very movie.

This is a man with an obviously over-analytical mind. He prided himself (based on what he says) on being able to identify patterns and project those patterns into the future and make educated decisions based upon his observations. Because he identified a trend early on that his mind was starting to go, he took action based on this assumption that the pattern would continue in the same way that it had for his friend or whomever it was he had observed waste away (I can't remember who he said it was, or if he ever did).

tredigs
08-21-2013, 11:43 PM
He stated on a few occasions that he had witness people close to him's minds go slowly, and that he never wanted that for himself. He then goes on to mention that lately, he needs to read things 5 times just to remember the content, when before it would only take him a once over. He also mentions one anecdote where he describes watching a movie and thoroughly enjoying it. He then went through the process of writing an entire review for the movie. When he went to post the review on rotten tomatoes, he found under his account a review posted by him not long ago of that very movie.

This is a man with an obviously over-analytical mind. He prided himself (based on what he says) on being able to identify patterns and project those patterns into the future and make educated decisions based upon his observations. Because he identified a trend early on that his mind was starting to go, he took action based on this assumption that the pattern would continue in the same way that it had for his friend or whomever it was he had observed waste away (I can't remember who he said it was, or if he ever did).

Gotchya, missed those anecdotes. So, he did see the early signs of losing it. Fair enough.

Personally, I can't wait to be the crazy grandfather.

xabial
08-21-2013, 11:44 PM
Dam.. that's really unfortunate. RIP..

northsider
08-21-2013, 11:46 PM
I have never and will never get some peoples obsession for chirping and acting high and mighty on people who take their own lives. It's comes of so ****ing arrogant to read people somehow thinking that in all matters life can't be that bad.

Who is anyone to tell another person when and where they want things to end? So it's selfish to end your own misery but, it's not selfish of others to want you to stick around specifically to spare them the agony that they will inevitably have to deal with regardless when you die naturally?

I think their is a line and treating all cases as the same bothers me in the worst way. When a young kid or teen does it then it hits home quite a bit and allot of times those cases are ones where it could've been prevented and should've. However I think their is almost an age appropriate time and instance where I can't frown upon another human deciding to go on their terms.

aTinyPanda
08-21-2013, 11:47 PM
Gotchya, missed those anecdotes. So, he did see the early signs of losing it. Fair enough.

And again, don't get me wrong when I'm writing these replies. I don't take either side of the "selfish" or "justified" argument in this thread. I'm not trying to defend his decision in any way. I simply take the stance that no one here or anywhere should feel compelled to judge this guy. I don't know what it is about humans but we're always trying to evaluate each others performances on this planet.

Chronz
08-21-2013, 11:48 PM
Depressing topic indeed .....

xabial
08-21-2013, 11:51 PM
For all of you interested in seeing his website after Yahoo took it down the hacker group "Annonymous" re-posted his website after Yahoo took it down. I don't advise you read it.. Its really depressing... and I myself couldn't get through one page of it, but its really informative and his website tells you his reason of why the genius who invented the NBA "efficiency rating" took down his own life.

http://martinmanley.org/january_1_2012.html

tredigs
08-21-2013, 11:55 PM
And again, don't get me wrong when I'm writing these replies. I don't take either side of the "selfish" or "justified" argument in this thread. I'm not trying to defend his decision in any way. I simply take the stance that no one here or anywhere should feel compelled to judge this guy. I don't know what it is about humans but we're always trying to evaluate each others performances on this planet.
It's a one-up society, at least in America, but I agree this is not something to judge. Still, an interesting/worthwhile thing to talk about when someone goes about it like this.

Clippersfan86
08-22-2013, 12:01 AM
I was raised a strongly Christian Catholic, even went to a High School seminary to study to be a Catholic Priest. So I used to pray constantly. And then one day I asked myself a 3-part questions:
1) "If God is all-knowing then why am I praying to him?" Afterall, if he/she exists and is all-knowing then he already knows what has happened and/or is going to happen (for example, in this case: (if anything) to "his family who is probably heartbroken")."
2) "If God is all-powerful, then my prayers can NOT influence him/her; so again, why pray, it's a waste of time."
3) "If God is all-loving, it's arrogance on my part to believe I am more loving and know better than he/she what is best by trying to pray that he/she change his/her all-loving mind."

Then there's the scientific studies where "the power of prayer" was tested to see, for example, if it DID aid sick people get well. And the result has always been the same, "praying to God does NOT work; prayers don't get answered."

And in every human war, when both sides are praying to God for THEIR side, how does God deal with that? Does God, can God take sides in wars, where, inevitably innocents are slaughtered???

And then, what if the god you believe in is not really the one true god; or only one of many? Afterall most human beings don't believe in your god, do they? And they believe just as firmly as you do that theirs is the only, one and true god. So, IF they are right, then you are wrong and you have even less reason to pray to a god that isn't even the right one. Right? What if there's more than one God (as people believed for most of human history - whether one believes we've been around for only 6,000 years or some 200,000 years like I do)?

I don't mean in any way, shape or form to offend you. But you DID mention "prayers" for his family, right? And the man WAS a supposed authority on efficiency, right? So, I should be able to question the efficiency of praying for his family, shouldn't I. Even if it could be proven that I was wrong; the question should be allowed to be asked, no?

Lastly, we've had it reported to us in this very thread, that he basically doesn't have any loved ones (his only relatives being out-of-contact). So they probably don't need your/our well-wishes and/or prayers, no? Maybe the reason they are out of contact is because they hate him?

Doesn't matter how you were raised if you never truly dedicated yourself to a faith. Until you choose to believe on YOUR own terms it won't turn into anything meaningful. I can tell you from constant experience that prayers have been answered for me too many times to count. We don't need to derail the thread with this topic so feel free to PM me but the questions you have for God have been asked a million times and answered a million times.

I saw the prayer study and it won't change my mind considering I've been healed twice and had my prayers answered personally too many times to count. I've personally experienced miracles that baffled non believers. I've seen a baby brought back to life in Africa by a pastor. Anyways I don't want to set this thread too off course, but I do think it's that posters right to say "Prayers to him" without anybody raising an issue. It was nowhere near as religious as the thread you posted which I'm replying to for example.

Clippersfan86
08-22-2013, 12:04 AM
Again, I don't like calling anyone out in this thread (except for that guy earlier that was being a complete blow hole) just to be clear.

But I think, in regards to the sentence I have in bold above, after reading all of his writings it's pretty clear he was suffering with severe depression about the fact that his mind was starting to degenerate (according to him) and that the world was going to **** (again, according to his perspective.. which is all that is really worth referencing or discussing in this context).

Just adding that to the discussion. He had his reasons, and he spelled them out clearly in his writings. You can disagree with them, and many do, but when it comes down to it a man's life is his and his alone.

Remember like I said yesterday you have seemingly read far more than me, so I'll take your word for it if you say he clearly seemed depressed. The couple segments I read didn't seem like it really. I'm honestly skeptical of his Dementia claim though. I think he used that to justify his case further and provided no evidence of this. It's normal that as you get older you're less sharp and your memory declines so until he says a doctor showed him a diagnosis, I'm going to assume he's self diagnosing. If you show me him saying something about testing showing this, I'll obviously admit my wrong.

Clippersfan86
08-22-2013, 01:07 AM
Something random for you guys. The new client I'm going to have at my job is a guy in his 60's with Dementia I just found out. Tied right into this thread. Should be interesting and will definitely be updating ya'll :p

Pablonovi
08-22-2013, 01:18 AM
I largely agree with your sentiment, and am in the same boat as far as being formerly religious in a major way and turning to an internal search rather than looking for answers from major religions.

I do however think there is something to be said for the concentration and meditation involved with prayer. This is somewhat off topic, but I was just compelled to respond since you brought it up. It may not be effective in a physical manifestation sort of way, but is without question therapeutic. Essentially, if prayer is done the way it was described originally by Christian and Islamic leaders... in practical terms it manifests itself more as an internal dialogue with one's subconscious and forces the individual to question and reflect on their desires, actions, and goals.

To me.. prayer in a Christian and more so in an Islamic context (because of the ritual involved) is "directed meditation".. wherein the person praying is directing their prayers to an entity they believe is there to help them work out their purpose. I feel they are really just having an intimate dialogue with their own psyche.. and working themselves out.

Now, in terms of modern "prayer" where folks ask their God to make them rich and powerful, generally selfish wishes, is not even prayer in the original sense and as such is just.. not even worth discussing to me. as it has zero roots in any type of true philosophy. It's just humans doing what humans have always done basically... want all of the things, lol.

Wow. Nicely expressed.

Clippersfan86
08-22-2013, 01:20 AM
I largely agree with your sentiment, and am in the same boat as far as being formerly religious in a major way and turning to an internal search rather than looking for answers from major religions.

I do however think there is something to be said for the concentration and meditation involved with prayer. This is somewhat off topic, but I was just compelled to respond since you brought it up. It may not be effective in a physical manifestation sort of way, but is without question therapeutic. Essentially, if prayer is done the way it was described originally by Christian and Islamic leaders... in practical terms it manifests itself more as an internal dialogue with one's subconscious and forces the individual to question and reflect on their desires, actions, and goals.

To me.. prayer in a Christian and more so in an Islamic context (because of the ritual involved) is "directed meditation".. wherein the person praying is directing their prayers to an entity they believe is there to help them work out their purpose. I feel they are really just having an intimate dialogue with their own psyche.. and working themselves out.

Now, in terms of modern "prayer" where folks ask their God to make them rich and powerful, generally selfish wishes, is not even prayer in the original sense and as such is just.. not even worth discussing to me. as it has zero roots in any type of true philosophy. It's just humans doing what humans have always done basically... want all of the things, lol.

Anybody praying to become rich or powerful at least in my faith, isn't a true believer and has shady motives. That's not the purpose of prayer.

aTinyPanda
08-22-2013, 01:26 AM
Right, that was essentially one of my points.

Pablonovi
08-22-2013, 01:28 AM
Doesn't matter how you were raised if you never truly dedicated yourself to a faith. Until you choose to believe on YOUR own terms it won't turn into anything meaningful. I can tell you from constant experience that prayers have been answered for me too many times to count. We don't need to derail the thread with this topic so feel free to PM me but the questions you have for God have been asked a million times and answered a million times.

I saw the prayer study and it won't change my mind considering I've been healed twice and had my prayers answered personally too many times to count. I've personally experienced miracles that baffled non believers. I've seen a baby brought back to life in Africa by a pastor. Anyways I don't want to set this thread too off course, but I do think it's that posters right to say "Prayers to him" without anybody raising an issue. It was nowhere near as religious as the thread you posted which I'm replying to for example.

My friend,
I am pleasantly surprised both by this thread generally and by this your post in particular. The respectful tone is marvelous. I would point out that, contrary to your guess, I DID seriously get into my faith; I studied the Bible and Catholic teachings for hours every single day for 4 years running PASSIONATELY. We had enthusiastic group discussion led by the priests. Please don't doubt my faith back then.

I agree that in my post I got deep into the discussion of religions/God/gods. But it was in response to others who had raised the issue, though to be sure in smaller way, i.e. with less words.

I don't doubt that you are being honest when you say you've had deep religious experiences. My problem is that that type of thing is NOT evidence; is not reproducible; and is countered by similar non-evidence of people of every other faith who's experience "teaches" them to "know" that you are wrong. There is no possible way that both/all can be right; but there is the distinct real possibility that you/both/all have unintentionally mis-interpreted such experiences.

On these matters it's probably best that we humbly and friendily "Agree To Disagree".

Clippersfan86
08-22-2013, 01:36 AM
Right, that was essentially one of my points.

I can't speak for Muslims since I've never been involved but in the case of Christians... I'd say at least half of them are phony or unfortunately mislead by leadership. So never look at them as the example automatically without digging deeper (I know it's unrealistic to follow this). I'll list some things you probably don't like that would NEVER come from legit Christians (except ones mislead unfortunately who are ignorant to the scripture).

1. Threats of going to hell if you do or don't do something. The ONLY requirement in the bible for salvation is that you accept Jesus. You can be a rapist/murderer on your death bed and if you truly accept, you are in. PERIOD.

2. Christians that try to live a "holy" type of life. It's BS, period. It's not wrong to try to be the best person you can be, but we all have vices, different lifestyles and that's completely okay. The changes come from within and happen for everybody in due time. Christians that emphasize petty things like smoking, sex, alcohol, gambling, dating etc are mislead. Remember to constantly pick at somebody's flaws instead of encouraging them you're actually becoming a detriment to their faith.

3. Christians that preach the old testament. People that have tried Christianity often have the OLD covenant shoved down their throats which were written purely as law for Jews thousands of years ago. Even the brutal stories that turn so many non believers off.. they aren't meant for this generation. Jesus came with a new law and a new covenant which was centered around NOTHING but love. Out with laws and in with a relationship. Do not put new wine in old wineskins. I think of the old testament as a very interesting history book with lots of wild and interesting stories. Most people obviously START with the old testament because it's the first part of the book and unfortunately that automatically confuses and turns them off.


I'm not trying to preach at all, just saying so many misconceptions about Christianity or any religion get spread because of mislead sheep. If anybody ever has questions or even wants to have a respectful debate/discussion about this PM me. I don't want to derail the thread anymore.

Clippersfan86
08-22-2013, 01:44 AM
My friend,
I am pleasantly surprised both by this thread generally and by this your post in particular. The respectful tone is marvelous. I would point out that, contrary to your guess, I DID seriously get into my faith; I studied the Bible and Catholic teachings for hours every single day for 4 years running PASSIONATELY. We had enthusiastic group discussion led by the priests. Please don't doubt my faith back then.

I agree that in my post I got deep into the discussion of religions/God/gods. But it was in response to others who had raised the issue, though to be sure in smaller way, i.e. with less words.

I don't doubt that you are being honest when you say you've had deep religious experiences. My problem is that that type of thing is NOT evidence; is not reproducible; and is countered by similar non-evidence of people of every other faith who's experience "teaches" them to "know" that you are wrong. There is no possible way that both/all can be right; but there is the distinct real possibility that you/both/all have unintentionally mis-interpreted such experiences.

On these matters it's probably best that we humbly and friendily "Agree To Disagree".

I apologize if what I said seemed so sharp. I didn't mean it in a malicious way at all, I promise. I just was speaking in generalities. So many people are forced into religion as kids, in schools and since they aren't choosing it on their own terms, they rebel. In turn they retain less and or just focus WAY too much on the legalism of faith, which is a miserable place to be.

Reproducible is a tricky type of deal. If God was to show things consistently in a lab setting, there would be no faith requirement whatsoever, so that's never going to happen. If you get involved enough you'll see the consistencies. I've watched people healed time and time again. Not the phony TV healing crap where these money hungry punks rip off people either. I've had prophecy spoken over me and other people multiple times. One lady who I love very much told me that the coming week I would have huge trouble at my work but to stay strong right? That same week I wrecked the work van, had everybody turn on me and quit shortly after.

Anyways I wasn't calling you out on speaking about this stuff. I'm 100 percent all for it. I just think the mods get offended is what I meant.

Pablonovi
08-22-2013, 01:51 AM
I apologize if what I said seemed so sharp. I didn't mean it in a malicious way at all, I promise. I just was speaking in generalities. So many people are forced into religion as kids, in schools and since they aren't choosing it on their own terms, they rebel. In turn they retain less and or just focus WAY too much on the legalism of faith, which is a miserable place to be.

Reproducible is a tricky type of deal. If God was to show things consistently in a lab setting, there would be no faith requirement whatsoever, so that's never going to happen. If you get involved enough you'll see the consistencies. I've watched people healed time and time again. Not the phony TV healing crap where these money hungry punks rip off people either. I've had prophecy spoken over me and other people multiple times. One lady who I love very much told me that the coming week I would have huge trouble at my work but to stay strong right? That same week I wrecked the work van, had everybody turn on me and quit shortly after.

Anyways I wasn't calling you out on speaking about this stuff. I'm 100 percent all for it. I just think the mods get offended is what I meant.

Cool.

aTinyPanda
08-22-2013, 10:43 AM
I can't speak for Muslims since I've never been involved but in the case of Christians... I'd say at least half of them are phony or unfortunately mislead by leadership. So never look at them as the example automatically without digging deeper (I know it's unrealistic to follow this). I'll list some things you probably don't like that would NEVER come from legit Christians (except ones mislead unfortunately who are ignorant to the scripture).

1. Threats of going to hell if you do or don't do something. The ONLY requirement in the bible for salvation is that you accept Jesus. You can be a rapist/murderer on your death bed and if you truly accept, you are in. PERIOD.

2. Christians that try to live a "holy" type of life. It's BS, period. It's not wrong to try to be the best person you can be, but we all have vices, different lifestyles and that's completely okay. The changes come from within and happen for everybody in due time. Christians that emphasize petty things like smoking, sex, alcohol, gambling, dating etc are mislead. Remember to constantly pick at somebody's flaws instead of encouraging them you're actually becoming a detriment to their faith.

3. Christians that preach the old testament. People that have tried Christianity often have the OLD covenant shoved down their throats which were written purely as law for Jews thousands of years ago. Even the brutal stories that turn so many non believers off.. they aren't meant for this generation. Jesus came with a new law and a new covenant which was centered around NOTHING but love. Out with laws and in with a relationship. Do not put new wine in old wineskins. I think of the old testament as a very interesting history book with lots of wild and interesting stories. Most people obviously START with the old testament because it's the first part of the book and unfortunately that automatically confuses and turns them off.


I'm not trying to preach at all, just saying so many misconceptions about Christianity or any religion get spread because of mislead sheep. If anybody ever has questions or even wants to have a respectful debate/discussion about this PM me. I don't want to derail the thread anymore.

Yeah man, I get what you're saying completely and I guess I should apologize for making too much of a generalization by being lazy with my words. I didn't mean all modern Christians or Muslims approach prayer or practice in a selfish way when I wrote that last paragraph, should have qualified my statement better.

I have spent the first 20 years of my life studying, practicing and teaching in Christianity. I spent the next 5 years at school studying in courses of all world religions, chemistry, physics, as well as my computer science major courses.. so my knowledge isn't comprehensive but I have a firm grip on what each of the major religions, and some of the smaller ones idealize and represent.. and my grip on the fundamental components of our reality is solid enough that I try to relate the two concepts, the spiritual and the scientific.

My opinion on prayer is not meant to deter anyone who is a believer from feeling that what they are doing is having a conversation with their God. More so, I wanted to express my personal opinion on what prayer as practiced by the truly devout can represent in a practical, earthly sense. I cannot claim one God to my name. I also do not deny any God. I am neither religious nor atheist. I just cannot fathom a human mind that has the power and perception to say definitively one way or another what is true and what is not. I just go through life trying to be kind, understanding, and compassionate while constantly reflecting and searching for clues on the path to death. I have had several "religious" experiences in my life and some of them occurred post-Christianity for me. My perception of reality and the essence of our entire existence on this earth is probably very different than someone who is religious. We could start a whole separate thread discussing each religion and it's finer points.. but as always on the internet that's just going to lead to people mistaking statements and getting offended, or baiting.. and no one wants that :P

Clippersfan86
08-22-2013, 11:35 AM
Agreed man. It's been a pleasure though in this thread. Like I said earlier somehow this thread evaded all trolls lol.

Pablonovi
08-22-2013, 12:17 PM
I can't speak for Muslims since I've never been involved but in the case of Christians... I'd say at least half of them are phony or unfortunately mislead by leadership. So never look at them as the example automatically without digging deeper (I know it's unrealistic to follow this). I'll list some things you probably don't like that would NEVER come from legit Christians (except ones mislead unfortunately who are ignorant to the scripture).

1. Threats of going to hell if you do or don't do something. The ONLY requirement in the bible for salvation is that you accept Jesus. You can be a rapist/murderer on your death bed and if you truly accept, you are in. PERIOD.

2. Christians that try to live a "holy" type of life. It's BS, period. It's not wrong to try to be the best person you can be, but we all have vices, different lifestyles and that's completely okay. The changes come from within and happen for everybody in due time. Christians that emphasize petty things like smoking, sex, alcohol, gambling, dating etc are mislead. Remember to constantly pick at somebody's flaws instead of encouraging them you're actually becoming a detriment to their faith.

3. Christians that preach the old testament. People that have tried Christianity often have the OLD covenant shoved down their throats which were written purely as law for Jews thousands of years ago. Even the brutal stories that turn so many non believers off.. they aren't meant for this generation. Jesus came with a new law and a new covenant which was centered around NOTHING but love. Out with laws and in with a relationship. Do not put new wine in old wineskins. I think of the old testament as a very interesting history book with lots of wild and interesting stories. Most people obviously START with the old testament because it's the first part of the book and unfortunately that automatically confuses and turns them off.


I'm not trying to preach at all, just saying so many misconceptions about Christianity or any religion get spread because of mislead sheep. If anybody ever has questions or even wants to have a respectful debate/discussion about this PM me. I don't want to derail the thread anymore.

Hey ClippersFan86,
There's a couple of things from your post here that I'm going to address; but I'd like to preface this by saying that I hope people have seen enough of my posts to KNOW that I have NO axe to grind, am not arrogant or overly competitive AND do try extra-hard to show respect and to compliment people (I mostly reserve my "making fun of someone" to do it about my self).

1) ClippersFan86 says, "... Christians... I'd say at least half of them are phony or unfortunately mislead by leadership."
Pablo responds: I would think that just about everybody could see what a humongous problem there is with statements of this type. I DON'T know (and have never known) a Christian who didn't completely agree with this statement; and yet, they identified emphatically a different "at least half" as "phony or unfortunately mislead by leadership." And, it goes without saying, 100% of the non-Christians on earth agree with this also. So we're left statistically with virtually no one on the planet agreeing that there's any sizeable portion of Christians who "know" the truth about God/Jesus/Bible/Morality, the "only true way". A huge problem; if it were crystal clear, we'd expect the exact opposite, maybe 95% would believe virtually identically; but that's not at all what we find.

2) Clippersfan86 says, "1. Threats of going to hell if you do or don't do something. The ONLY requirement in the bible for salvation is that you accept Jesus. You can be a rapist/murderer on your death bed and if you truly accept, you are in. PERIOD."

Pablo responds: "Wow. Just wow! Two points:
A) I DO agree that you are accurately representing this, THE CENTRAL BELIEVE OF CHRISTIANITY. This IS exactly what I was raised to believe, and DID believe completely for my first 17 years of my life. So it was that every time I did certain things, including one that I could not make myself stop doing; I would be in a panic about "going to hell for all eternity" if I died before I got to the confessional and had been absolved by a priest. This was a virtual hell-on-earth that I lived daily: sheer torment, fear, guilt, self-hatred and seeming inability to be pure enough. I accepted this Catholic Church Teaching unequivocably, completely, it dominated my life.

So, I DO thank you for expressing this critical belief so clearly. However,

B) I'm a little more than a little older now (about 50 years older than I was when last I believed that central tenet. And THE ONE thing I will never accept as real is a God that is both "All-Loving" and can forgive a lifetime of rape and murder, just as long as on their death-bed such a arch-criminal "sees the light" and "accepts Jesus into his/her life". For me there can hardly be anything more injustice, immoral, unfair, and out-right disgusting.

And the obvious corollary is this: God values more one last-second's worth of our worshiping/adoring him/her & Jesus; than he/she does about a life-time of the most moral depravity. That's the most immoral God I could imagine. For me, that's one God I can do without.

Lastly, about this concept of MORTAL SIN MERITTING ETERNAL TORTURE IN HELL: This is the other half of the Catholic Church's Central Tenet: 1A) Accept Jesus = all is good, you're in Heaven, rocking on high for all eternity; 1B) Reject Jesus and/or commit some other mortal sin (or even, due to being born into the wrong religion) = all is bad, you're in Hell, tortured to the max for all eternity. Further, for something Eve (and Adam) did some 6,000 years ago, the overwhelming majority of human beings have been, are, and will be condemned to this eternal torture - Yikes! That's one totally-cruel and vindictive God you've got there.

All of human society has always on the correct moral basis, at least officially, proclaimed that all forms of torture are wrong. Yet your all-loving God, in his/her infinite wisdom breaks all the world-historic records for torturing (for both intensity and duration); and that's supposed to be fair, moral, just and all-loving?

So, let's take this stats guy. Who knows, maybe he was a real good guy during most of his life; doing a lot more good than bad. He realized, from the early signs, that he was going to lose his brain, his very humanity and thus become less than human. He made the conscious decision to end his human life while he was still human and still had the capacity to do something about it. And for this his/your "all-loving" God is already and on forever torturing him?

Suppose, for the moment, we were to accept that he was morally wrong in his suicide; are we to believe that that one choice is so weighty AND so wrong, that this both overwhelms all the good he may have done; AND that its only just "reward" is eternal torture???
Woah Nelly.
No Thanx,
Pablo

Clippersfan86
08-22-2013, 12:32 PM
Pablo PM me man. I don't want us to get banned. Have you read the parable of the Vineyard? In regards to your comment about men in faith not all being equals. I'm giving extreme polar examples as usual here. 9 times out of 10 it won't be somebody professing their faith on a death bed if they TRULY feel it, it will come much sooner. Besides it's unlikely somebody truly wicked does this with sincerity, which means it won't do anything for him/her. It was simply an example to show that you CANNOT earn your salvation with works. A man serving God for 50 years is NOT greater than a man serving God for 10 years.

Where did I say this guy was hell bound BTW? I just said I think he was scared and insecure. If he accepted Jesus he's in heaven, regardless of what he did after that moment, including suicide. This isn't the same as a lot of the Catholic or Mormon churches where you lose your salvation for not maintaining laws. That's not what I believe nor have I said so.

Yes I agree Christianity is in a very broken place right now and has always been. All I can do is try to help those that are mislead and being dominated by guilt and judgement of the others. It's sad that religion has become a far bigger enemy of God than any atheist or non believer. Religion destroys more lives than anything else on this earth. Which is why I hate being labeled as "religious" as a believer in God. I don't follow a strict set of laws, I don't condemn people's faith and those are the things I think of with "religion".

Pablonovi
08-22-2013, 02:53 PM
I have never and will never get some peoples obsession for chirping and acting high and mighty on people who take their own lives. It's comes of so ****ing arrogant to read people somehow thinking that in all matters life can't be that bad.

Who is anyone to tell another person when and where they want things to end? So it's selfish to end your own misery but, it's not selfish of others to want you to stick around specifically to spare them the agony that they will inevitably have to deal with regardless when you die naturally?

I think their is a line and treating all cases as the same bothers me in the worst way. When a young kid or teen does it then it hits home quite a bit and allot of times those cases are ones where it could've been prevented and should've. However I think their is almost an age appropriate time and instance where I can't frown upon another human deciding to go on their terms.

Hey Northsider,
Your post really hits home with me. Just a few years back, we had visited some close in-laws. I sensed some deep tension but this was our first visit in a long time (we had not lived anywhere near them) - it would NOT have been appropriate to be budding in on just a suspicion when there was NOT (yet) enough of a basis of trust.

So what happened is that the next day, the 16 year-old son blew his head off with his dad's pistol. He had looked at me with hurt-full longing eyes, like saying, "You're an understanding kind of uncle, you could help me, so please do." And now it was too late. We were devastated. I felt personally responsible. And it only got worse at the funeral and afterwards in the following days back at their house. The kid's dad had been raised by an alcoholic, physically abusive father himself; and this just got repeated. The actual trigger-event was the dad making fun of his son's announcement of having fallen in love and planning to start living with the girl. "You don't even know how to wipe your own *****;" and further ridicule.

The ONLY good thing that came out of that was/is that he had/has a younger brother who at 13 was already a one-time ex-alcoholic and was on exactly the same short road to oblivion. We worked with his mom to get her to see that she'd have to either force her husband to back off the abuse OR take her kids and run. Otherwise, her next son was a goner too. Before she finally acted on this advice, the kid actually ran their car off the road almost killing all of them - what a clear cry for help. Everybody's much better now.

One of the key morals: setting oneself up as "judge and jury" of other people's motivations and morals is a slippery slope best avoided.

Pablonovi
08-22-2013, 02:59 PM
Pablo PM me man. I don't want us to get banned. Have you read the parable of the Vineyard? In regards to your comment about men in faith not all being equals. I'm giving extreme polar examples as usual here. 9 times out of 10 it won't be somebody professing their faith on a death bed if they TRULY feel it, it will come much sooner. Besides it's unlikely somebody truly wicked does this with sincerity, which means it won't do anything for him/her. It was simply an example to show that you CANNOT earn your salvation with works. A man serving God for 50 years is NOT greater than a man serving God for 10 years.

Where did I say this guy was hell bound BTW? I just said I think he was scared and insecure. If he accepted Jesus he's in heaven, regardless of what he did after that moment, including suicide. This isn't the same as a lot of the Catholic or Mormon churches where you lose your salvation for not maintaining laws. That's not what I believe nor have I said so.

Yes I agree Christianity is in a very broken place right now and has always been. All I can do is try to help those that are mislead and being dominated by guilt and judgement of the others. It's sad that religion has become a far bigger enemy of God than any atheist or non believer. Religion destroys more lives than anything else on this earth. Which is why I hate being labeled as "religious" as a believer in God. I don't follow a strict set of laws, I don't condemn people's faith and those are the things I think of with "religion".

Hey all,
For those who have been following this particular back-and-forth between ClippersFan86 and myself, I feel the responsibility to let you know that we have found a very principled way to handle this. Actually, he (assuming he is a he and not a she; excuse me if I got this wrong), PM'd me. Which, imo, is exactly the right way to further this discussion in a much less public forum. So, I won't be responding any more here in this thread; but rather in PMs.

I think this is a most noble thing that ClippersFan86 has done; much better than us getting into either a flame-war or a detailed back-and-forth which most people might not want to be part of (and thus consider it just cluttering up of the thread); especially over something as far removed generally from the world of sports as this is. Nice.
Pablo